Bits Bucket For May 12, 2009
Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum. And see the American Visionaries series from Schwarzfilm.
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum. And see the American Visionaries series from Schwarzfilm.
O.k., I opened a trade account last night and just placed my first orders. This should be really funny.
My wife is so pissed.
ooooooooh Muggy -
My guys have a saying around these parts -
If mama ain’t happy, nobody is happy!
Leigh
That’s pretty much what Jeff Foxworthy said to married guys: “If she airen’t happy, you aren’t happy.”
Happy Wife, Happy Life…
No wife, happy life.
Wife not happy? Who cares? What else is new?
I’d comment, but “Shadow Significant Other” is lurking…I can just feel it…
Plays the origional “Jaws” music so you’ll feel better.
So what did you buy?
“So what did you buy?”
*The perennial HBB favs: SRS & SKF
NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE
you may do alright.
Beginner’s luck and all that.
FAZ too
I sold naked calls on COF.
FAZ, SRS and SKF? That’s like saying my first car will be a supercharged lamborghini with nitrous oxide. Suspect those 3 ETFs should be at or nearing a bottom.
“That’s like saying my first car will be a supercharged lamborghini with nitrous oxide.”
Like I said, I have to touch the hot plate once, just once.
LOL, Muggy. That’s a guy thing.
LOL, Muggy. That’s a guy thing.
Sadly, no.
Now, in general you are correct. But then there’s the rare idiot girl who defies her wise ‘xx’ thingie and goes ahead and is dumb all the time, too.
Because it’s true, man! Muggy knows. Maybe this time IS different? And I won’t know until I try…
Hahahahah!
Hey girl, 1/2 the fun is flying… to the Bug Zapper.
Good Luck, Muggy. Now is better than a month ago, that’s for sure. The net is buzzing with debate over the lifespan of this rally.
It’s a heavyweight bout - common sense vs. the audacity of hope. Let’s get ready to ruuuummmmmbbbbbbllllllleeee!
“It’s a heavyweight bout - common sense vs. the audacity of hope. Let’s get ready to ruuuummmmmbbbbbbllllllleeee!”
ROTFLMAO!
O.K., since everyone’s flinging advice:
Mugster: (Hwy bought Ford @ 1.60 sold @ 4.54… 10,000 coconuts)
O.K., see I’m a chicken little…could have waited ’till it got to $6.00+
but Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I just kept hearing in my mind Henry Ford telling the gov’t after 1929…”Let ‘em fail, let ‘em all fail, I’ll go right back to making cars…” That, and I still believe that when Mr. Cole is 20 years old, he’ll still be able to find Tide & See’s candy… somewhere in America.
Hwy: I bought Ford last fall year too! I’m hanging onto mine.
REhobbyist, if I were a trout, I’d have a very short life…take the worm almost every time…but IF it ever “limbo’s” to under $5.00… I’ll be glancing at that calender with the 2009 mustang picture, just to left of my screen.
Anywho, at that time I’ll buy some to put in Mr. Cole’s 2020 xmas stocking.
Muggy, may the force be with you. The market right now is extremely frustrating. The bias to the upside is enormous because every evil (gov and bank) force on the planet is focused on driving the market higher. A good analogy is a kid frying an ant with a magnifying glass with the ant being the prudent short seller. At the same time there is a hope that the machine will blow a gasket and fail catastrophically and the shorts (if there are any left) will be rewarded hansomely. I am in the latter camp and pray that a tiny overlooked grain of sand picked up by the gears could somehow shut the whole nasty, greedy thing down and burn everyone who tried to sell the world on this fake recovery.
I still have my 3 short positions, however I do not want the entire system to fail catastrophically. It’s one thing to bet against overshooting on the upside in the market, it’s another thing to want the entire financial market to collapse because trust me that affects everyone to a certain degree no matter if you are a short or not. Create a hedged portfolio with longs/shorts and you should be ok.
I am with you cougar. I dont want a collapse either, just want to current scam to fail as it should if any sort of justice ever existed in the world. This whole bailout/printing fake-bottom rally needs to fail in the name of all that is right. As a side-note, my long hege positions have been sold into the fake rally and I am just waiting…
“I dont want a collapse either, just want to current scam to fail as it should if any sort of justice ever existed in the world.”
Suggestion: If your goal is to either make money or to avoid losing it in the current market environment, check principles of justice at the door when you leave church on Sunday.
pressboardbox,
And I with you sir. The reality is, now that it’s the path we’ve chosen ( yes he’s ‘my’ President too ) what choice do we have?
Who more than Ben’s crowd to cry out against bailouts in all… their various forms? You know, Mark Zandi had some wonderful retrospect on that last night and was willing to say we’re at least out of immediate danger.
What we need to decide is what’s of greater importance to us? I’d love nothing more than to buy my ret. home based on payments for $25k, wouldn’t ‘that’ be a hoot? But at the expense of everything ELSE!? Sorry, I can’t get on board w/ that.
The market is scammed in every direction; it must collapse if facts mean anything.
Scam numbers in the “stress tests”, scam unemployment numbers by the government, market rallys based on wishful thinking………the triumph of manipulation over truth, and (as mentioned above) the audacity of hope trumping common sense.
“You can’t handle the truth…..”
SRS, FAS, FAZ
URE, UYG, FXP
uyg? still?
you think the whole thing is just done? Banks are fine and all that?
“URE, UYG, FXP”
Damn! So I am betting against a pro. Is the vomit feeling normal?
Need the barf gif, Ben!!
I’m long on LALALALA.
….sand picked up by the gears could somehow shut the whole nasty, greedy thing down and burn everyone…
Burning gear sand? And that analogy started out so well.
Ah, well.
It would be nice, but I am having serious doubts that the “good guys” have any hope of winning at this point.
All I see is stagflation from horizon to horizon: a world with eternal bailouts, staggering corruption that is redefined daily as somehow being acceptable, run-away inflation (that is also redefined to be “good for us.”), and a total lack of real jobs in the economy. Oh, and housing prices will jam at an unaffordable level, though down from their peak.
Such a wonderful Brave, New world…
Methinks you are in for a real education. The course will be Muggy101.
“If you don’t know who you are, the stock market can be a very expensive place to find out.”
When I bought my first ounce of gold back in the 70s I caught a high on the buy and sold later in depression at a solid bottom. Grampa, a long time gambler, said to me:
“You pay your tuition and take your change.”
Hoping you keep your tuition low Muggy.
Combo, it’s not a lot of loot. It’s basically my slush fund, and since I’m not flying my family all over the U.S. for weddings this summer, I’d thought I’d try my hand.
I know who I am, and it won’t cost me a lot of money to realize I should just save cash, but thanks for the insult!
Muggy, that was not an insult.
Most traders lose money. This does not suggest you will lose personally but it does suggest you will lose statistically.
Perhaps you will turn out to be a good trader. There is only one way to find out, and that is to trade. I say this because I have been where you are at this moment. I used to think I could trade but discovered I am not cut out for it. I don’t beat myself up over this fact; I just accept it.
Whatever happens, I wish you luck.
I know you didn’t men it as an insult (smiley). Of all the words written here, I particularly appreciate yours.
I just have to touch the hot plate once, just once.
I opened an account just last month for the first time. What finally motivated me to do so was missing Citi for one dollar! (Around March 6th) At first I made money, about $700, but then I got impatient ( and stupid?) and lost that plus about $600. Ouch! Best of luck to you, Muggy!
Is that for real, combo–that most traders lose money? I’ve been trying to learn something about trading and have to admit that most trading tech talk makes my eyes cross and my brain freeze. So, it seems to me that traders must be really really smart if they understand all this jargon and make money off of it.
But then I consider the average level of intelligence, and look at what the other group I used to think was very smart has done (financial ‘wizards’ of course) and realize maybe I’ve been overestimating the average brain power of the average trader.
“I just have to touch the hot plate once, just once.”
The danger is that you might do well, enjoy it, and get pulled in by the hotplate in a bigger way down the road.
The quote by combo about “finding out who you are” is actually worth bearing in mind even if you know who you are. You may be surprised to find there is an emotional impact to finding yourself way ahead or behind. Both are worth thinking about a bit. If you are able to overcome or ignore the emotional roller-coaster, I tend to believe you have a better chance of being successful at trading.
I actually think your timing is not so bad for getting in on the short side. My personal opinion is that this rally is based on hope that will be as short-lived as whisps of opium-smoke. The market is definitely drugged and IMHO is ignoring the fundamentals that are WORSE now than on the last plunge.
Best of luck with touching the hotplate!
What is it - since 1982, 75% of all stocks have lost 2% a year? This is per a Money Magazine article published just this week at the Money site.
Invest in PNP
behind the Vegas Pass-No Pass Line
Hope you didn’t short sell today.
Stocks should be well up today.
Dollar down, oil up almost tick for tick in the morning.
It’s the dollar that’s inflated, NOT the stock market.
sorry pressboardbox, but more pain for you.
‘It’s the dollar that’s inflated’
One doesn’t have to have some magical powers to know if you are right. Why are interest rates so low? Why is gas at 2 bucks? Why is gold not at $3,000 an ounce or even much more? These questions never seem to get answered.
Most important, IMO, are the interest rates. True inflation would send rates into the 20%s or higher. It always has historically. I saw an offer of 2% on a savings account this morning that postured itself as some big gain.
“These questions never seem to get answered.”
And they never will. Only hobgoblins are substituted for real answers.
blue-blooded hobgoblines
or was that green-blooded? Can’t remember vulcan anatomy…
Stay on topic PeaShooter.
Oh, Just looking at yhoo and China news. Seems they are engaging in supply side stimulus. Building more factories while exports are plummeting and doing nothing to build badly needed infrastructure projects.
There seems to be a lot of money generation going on but the velocity numbers are way down. I suspect, as we all do, insiders/hedgers are using the money to manipulate markets for personal gain, oil and stock games again. Of course it probably will not spill over to broader economy for a while. If ever.
The consequences of this sort of behavior in Asian markets like China are more devastating to the US economy than they might seem. The US and the Chinese/Japanese economies have had a sort of “symbiotic” relationship post-WWII whereby well-capitalized Asian banks invest lots of capital into American businesses and/or the US federal government and American consumers buy those countries’ goods in droves. In short, Bernanke’s notion that Japanese and/or Chinese capital helped fund the housing boom is correct when taken in the proper context, and it happened because historically Asian families have saved large portions of their incomes while American families have saved comparatively little. (It doesn’t excuse the fact that Americans used that capital irresponsibly, of course.)
So what happens when this symbiosis breaks down because American consumers aren’t able to buy so many Asian goods anymore? Who knows, because it’s never really happened up until this point. However, if it gets to the point where Asian investors become completely uninterested in buying US government bonds and/or American stocks, then things may really fall apart.
Ben,
I’ve no doubt that’s where rates ’should’ be and that wouldn’t necessarily be a ‘bad’ thing? When I bought my first home, anything -below- 10% on a FRM was an awesome deal!
The house was $67,500 and when rates dropped back down we were able to re-fi to a much lower rate. In the meantime at least we were being paid decent int. on our deposits.
Ben,
Can you be a little more specific with the “true inflation” statement? Curious to know where this hidden inflation exists.
The biggest expense for most people is housing. Housing costs as we all now has been falling rapidly. The next major expense for most people is a car. Have you been to a dealer lately? It’s almost like priceline.com where you name your price and often times get it, especially at a GM dealer.
So with the top two expenses falling in price, exactly where’s this hyperinflation that warrants 20% interest rates?
I have found that cars (even GMs) are basically selling for the same prices as during the “good” times. Even Saturn, which has been officially pronounced as a “dead man walking” is sticking to its no haggle MSRP policy for its 2009 models and isn’t offering rebates on its 2009s, just 0% financing. I have been underwhelmed by the “deals” I’ve seen. Maybe its Northern Colorado?
Nobody wants to deal on anything, everybody would rather wait for the bailout that will save them from the humiliation of selling to you at a loss.
Nope, the deals haven’t been too good at local domestic dealers here in Cleveland either. I’m guessing it’s because the business of making and selling cars seems to be almost “frozen” at this point (at least as far as Chrysler is concerned; GM seems not too far behind, while Ford has at least partially gotten its act together). Take Chrysler, for instance; that company’s factories are idle, its suppliers are getting desperate for revenue, and its dealers are suddenly not being paid for warranty work, corporate incentives on new car sales, etc (in fact, the bankrupt Chrysler has even started bouncing checks made out to customers of various types; links available upon request.) Consequently, I’m not surprised that Chrysler dealers wouldn’t be making deals at this point - after all, they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. Chrysler’s mediocre cars won’t move without huge incentives and/or some price negotiation by customers, but the company’s dealers may not get reimbursed for those discounts and generally can’t afford to pay the cost of the discounts out of pocket because many of them are already in dire financial straits as well.
In the long run, I suspect many of these dealers will either go bankrupt or will be “culled” by Chrysler in an attempt to cut costs and make the “new” restructured Chrysler viable. (The same will be true of GM, which itself has said that it will close more than 2,600 of its dealers to reduce market oversaturation and cut costs.) When all of these dealers finally do start going out of business, I suspect their cars will be offered up for firesale prices and you’ll be able to find great deals.
Of course, then you’ll have to answer the question of whether you want to own a car from a bankrupt automaker whose cars have plummeting resale values…but I digress.)
BTW, anyone else notice that the quality of customer service at dealers and/or any other businesses seems to have taken a nose-dive during this recession? You’d expect business to improve customer service in an effort to retain customers, but I’m finding mostly the opposite. The worst offenders lately seem to be restaurants; I’ve never seen such rude and careless service and such poor food until very recently. Heck, the last few times I’ve eaten out there’s been at least one person at the table whose food has something in it that doesn’t belong there…and we’ve been going to all sorts of different places, so it’s not like one restaurant just dropped the ball….
BTW, anyone else notice that the quality of customer service at dealers and/or any other businesses seems to have taken a nose-dive during this recession?
I certainly can’t speak of a trend - I hardly go out anymore and buy very little. But I must say I was very surprised by an experience had recently with the management at my apartment complex.
My apt. has flooded twice in the past month due to the drain pipe for the washer being plugged. Last time some nasty stuff came up. This last time was just the soapy water from the load of laundry. Regardless, while the complex was quick to respond to the maintenance issue, there was never any discussion of “hey, sorry for the inconvenience and damage to your stuff..we’ll discount your rent XXX this month” or anything. Meanwhile, there are new apartment complexes coming on line all around - and even more planned. This is the one of the older buildings in the area and is definitely falling apart.
I would expect management here to be going out of their way to keep a good reputation and keep tenants happy. Instead I had to bring it to their attention that I might not be a happy customer and today is day 3 that all my stuff is still piled up in the corner and a big fan is running (off my electricity bill!) trying to dry the carpet.
Here’s to hoping that those who provide good service are rewarded and survive this downturn, and those who provide crappy service go out of business…
“I’ve never seen such rude and careless service and such poor food until very recently”
I’ve noticed this too, there are alot of very un-happy people in this country and they are bringing it with them to their job. I just hope most of them will soon realize that they will lose that job if the customers suddenly quit comming in.
Yeah Ben, I just got that wonderful offer of 2.00% APY until 2010 Special Offer…with an $75k balance from one of my banks. I think this bank is heading for trouble
I had already transfered 50k from them to a sounder bank last year and was actually thinking of moving more out when I recieved their offer 2 days ago.
This bank has a horrible Safe and Sound rating, I don’t look forward to a possible FDIC dance around and I have been fully expecting a Friday visit from the SUITS and a sign on the door.
A bank with a better rating is worth more to me than their measely 2,00% offer, so IMHO, it’s FINCEN Form 104 time with this bank.
“Why are interest rates so low?”
1) At the short end of the yield curve, a flood of liquidity suppresses interest rates, as a large supply of virtually free money from the Fed crowds out private sources of loanable funds by undercutting the rate private investors need to induce them to take their money out from under the mattress.
2) The Fed is buying l-t Treasurys to suppress interest rates at the long end of the yield curve. Nonetheless, the 30-yr T-bond is yielding more than 400 bps above the 3-mo T-bill — pretty sweet if you can borrow short and lend long (like banks do!).
too logical PB.
/sarcasm
and when that game ends….
“and when that game ends….”
The dollar ends with it.
Look, they are printing in some for or another staggering amounts of money, and they are also keeping rates artificially low to try to get the debt-game going again. These things are not going to change - they WANT inflation and need it to keep the stupid debt-game going (housing Bubble, etc.)
Ben
I agree. You said it best before, It is about jobs. When wage inflation hits we will have real inflation cycle that will perperuate itself. Meanwhile the deflationary trend of many goods and inflationary policy will continue to collide with unknown short term outcome. IMO of course.
I don’t think it’s about the jobs - I think it’s about credit or the transition away from it. Even if you gave back the jobs to everyone that’s been laid off, most would still be struggling because so many were living off credit. They still can’t pay their mortgages and are still upside down and stuck. Take the credit away and no one buys nothing. If the overall economy is really based over 70% on consumer spending, we’re in real trouble. Most people can’t/won’t live within their means it seems. I don’t think to the average person there’s even any thought to inflation/deflation in the future. Just MHO.
Can’t. They can’t live within their means because J6P has been losing ground for the past 30 tears.
J6P’s wages have not kept up with real inflation. In fact J6P wages have been decreasing while inflation keeps rising. Forget the reports, most of them are bogus. In the city where I live (one of the top five in the nation) I have talked to literally 100s if not thousands of people and the story is all the same. The majority are making less money than they were 10 years ago and any raises they are getting (and many haven’t for years) does not match even official inflation, let alone real inflation.
And it’s only getting worse. The feedback from the layoffs of this year will have it’s effect later this year.
Exactly. Even if there is some sort of “Wall St. recovery”, the majority of the wage-earners in America will be in worse shape than when this recession started; plus, lots of people who have been laid off will never find jobs that pay what they were making during the boom. There was a nauseating news story on a couple days ago that kept talking about how many laid off people were finding new jobs, etc etc but all the people they were using as examples had settled for jobs that paid far less than what they had previously. One guy they talked to, for instance, was a lawyer who just got a job working at Subway. For all intents and purposes this guy might as well be unemployed.
Never mind the fact that most of the people I’ve talked to who have been laid off don’t seem to have curtailed their spending much. Even people on unemployment seem to be spending away just as they did during the boom days. What happens when the unemployment money runs out and these people have nothing left to work with? I fully expect consumer spending to fall off a cliff at some point during the summer as most of the newly unemployed run out of cash.
These questions never seem to get answered.
Deflation from massive amounts of bad debts going into the bit bucket competing in a high-stakes horse race with inflation from massive amounts of government stimulus.
How does one test the “hopes for recovery on signs of greens shoots” hypothesis against the “dollar weakness due to excessive printing” hypothesis.
Financial Times
Oil hits $60 on global recovery hopes
By Chris Flood
Published: May 12 2009 12:12 | Last updated: May 12 2009 18:32
US crude oil prices hit the $60 a barrel level on Tuesday for the first time since November while trade data from China helped push base metals higher as commodity markets continued to gain support from hopes for an early recovery for the global economy.
Nymex June West Texas Intermediate hit a high of $60.08 a barrel on Tuesday before easing back to trade 15 cents higher at $58.65, supported by dollar weakness and initial gains for equity markets.
EDITOR’S CHOICE
Energy Source blog - May-11
In depth: Oil - Mar-27
Chávez seizures fuel Venezuela oil fears - May-11
Lex: Oil prices - May-11
ICE June Brent rose 18 cents to $57.66 a barrel after reaching a high of $58.91.
Demand for oil in China appears to be strengthening with crude imports up 13.6 per cent year-on-year in April to 3.95m barrels, the first positive annual increase since October 2008.
The rise for oil prices came ahead of weekly US inventories data, due out on Wednesday. US crude stocks have reached their highest levels since 1990 and a further increase of 1.2m barrels was expected in Wednesday’s’s data, according to a preliminary poll of analysts by Reuters.
US demand remains weak with stocks of petrol and distillates (including heating oil) seen rising 500,000 and 1.1m barrels respectively.
Cocoa prices continued to fall on concerns about the outlook for demand. ICE July cocoa lost 3.6 per cent to $2,380 a tonne while, in London, Liffe July cocoa dropped 4.4 per cent to £1,644 a tonne.
Gold extended its push above the $900 level, rising 0.8 per cent to $920 a troy ounce and moving between a low of $912.40 and a high of $922.80, helped by dollar weakness.
Use a truer measure of recovery - employment. Which - coincidentally - shows no sign of improvement at this point.
Although in reality employment itself isn’t really a good measure, since non-productive or low-productive government employment such as military or things like CCC doesn’t help the economy much.
So perhaps “civilian employment” would be a better measure - as long as it doesn’t include things like the CCC - actually I wonder if that was considered civilian employment in its day? It’s got “civilian” in its name, but was funded by the government nut.
“Most important, IMO, are the interest rates. True inflation would send rates into the 20%s or higher. It always has historically. I saw an offer of 2% on a savings account this morning that postured itself as some big gain.”
Thats right but lots of generals like to fight the last war the inflation war back in the 1980’s. Like its going to come back any time soon in the face of millions of old and broke boomers.
Are we talking about the same inflation?
Everything I need has gone up in price, often at 20%+. EVERYTHING. The only thing that hasn’t gone up is some clothes, my car payment and my rent.
My pay? It sure hasn’t gone up 20%.
“One doesn’t have to have some magical powers to know if you are right. Why are interest rates so low? Why is gas at 2 bucks? Why is gold not at $3,000 an ounce or even much more? These questions never seem to get answered.
Most important, IMO, are the interest rates. True inflation would send rates into the 20%s or higher. It always has historically. I saw an offer of 2% on a savings account this morning that postured itself as some big gain.”
As always, too late too answer.
Still, my answer would have been: patience.
“Stocks should be well up today.”
I’m already losing!! Lol…
Market will end down today……
I am short KBH, TOL, AAPL, JBL. Own GLD, SLV, SRS, EEV, SKF. Puts on BBY, BA, KBH, STI, BAC, WFC. How am I doing? I have maintained these positions for the last six weeks. I still sleep at night but not as well.
I’m only long today (from my 100% cash position), only a few REITs FR, DDR, PLD, AMB. So far, only up about 30% on the basket, but there is still room to run as they fix their balance sheets and people realize that basic industrial and low end retail space isn’t going to go empty.
That’s my hedge against inflation.
“and people realize that basic industrial and low end retail space isn’t going to go empty.”
Disagree: from my simple, around-town observations.
I agree with Muggy. Oversupply (overpriced construction especially) problems will remain. REITS should fare poorly. Should is a four letter word.
Let me restate:
“basic industrial and low end retail space isn’t going to go empty forever”
There is some more vacancy in the portfolios of these REITs, but yields aren’t nearly as rich as apartments/storage, and the vacancy driven carnage isn’t going to be nearly as tough as in high-end retail and office.
If you take FR, for instance, and slap an 8.5% cap rate (historically very reasonable, if not high) on their assets, with a 10% vacancy rate (pretty high historically, today they are at about 88-89% occupied), and value their land holdings at $0, the common stock should be trading at $15-$20 per share.
This is down from the peak of $50, approximately the same price as the stock in the mid-90’s, and 3x what it is priced at today (~$5.50).
All else equal, this is not a stock I would short today given it’s valuation. Similar story with DDR. The value discount is less for PLD and AMB, but they are more diversified and are farther along on their balance sheet correction program.
I wouldn’t touch REITs like Public Storage (yield is far too low at 3.5%–they are trading at a massive premium to NAV) or major mall REITs like Simon Properties (higher end retail is going to have a tough go of it for a long time).
Just my opinion, but I don’t think you can simply say “real estate is bad” and short it all, some of these REITs are being hit far more than they should–others not nearly enough (and may never).
Interesting comments Rental…
Rental Watch,
And among the first comments we’ve had where there was -any- distinction between sub-categories of REIT’s at all?
Interesting comments, Rental Watch.
I do suspect that Public Storage may do better than may of the other segments, which should justify a lower yield. As FBs relocate and downsize from houses to apts, or from McMansions to smaller rental houses, many will find they have too much “stuff”, and shovel it into storage. I helped a friend move a month ago, and most of her stuff went straight into storage, where it will probably sit for a few years.
I expect the storage segment to do well over the next few years while the housing market is in turmoil.
That’s what I did - downsized from a 1700sf house to a 750sf apt. I shed a LOT of stuff, but still have a 5×5 storage unit.
Luckily I’m moving to a new place that has storage on-site for 1/5th the cost.
Storage is not immune. I’ve seen vacancy rates creep up and rental rates fall. If you lose your home, you may need a storage locker, but if you are among the 80% who have not lost their home, you may just turn your garage into your storage locker and save the $100 per month.
My problem with PS is not their operations risk, it’s their valuation. If you want to buy a storage facility, you can buy one for a 8%+ cap rate on the open market. To give the comparison, let’s slap an 8.5% cap rate on their 2008 estimated NOI (frankly, it should be a higher cap rate today, but I used 8.5% for industrial, so an 8.5% cap for storage is more than fair). That would put the value of the company at $13.275 billion. At today’s stock price, they are trading for about a 13% discount to NAV (rear-looking, based on 2008 NOI).
FR is, by the same analysis, trading at about a 65-70% discount to NAV.
The difference between the two companies is debt. Public Storage has almost none, FR is at about 65-70% of value.
If you believe the debt load is going to kill FR, you shouldn’t buy it, but if you believe that their debt maturities are manageable, and that they have ways to solve the problem, then they have far more upside than Public Storage.
By the way, I had the premium wrong on PS–I was just looking at their 3.5% dividend yield and didn’t do the math that they were reserving a lot of FFO.
Public Storage just raise their rental rates in my city. They also just lost a customer. I ditched them and found a much cheaper place.
“raised”
Sheesh.
“TOL”
Isn’t it obvious their share price is pegged at $20+/-?
Muggy, Here is my advice. Every time you buy something set-up an automatic stop/limit order to either lock-in profits or protect against large percentage losses. It is too easy to get caught up in the hype to assess this on the fly. If going in you want to make 20% and not lose more than 15% then set it up as you take your position. It is easy to do on my TD Ameritrade account and keeps me from out-thinking myself, which I was prone to do and cost me $$$$. Just my 2 1/2 cents.
I might do that… good advice. Is that possible after the order?
Don’t put a stop into the market on anything that is at all thinly traded, or the market-makers will take you out like shooting ducks in a pond.
Even for issues that trade quite actively, there is enough volatility these days for market makers to screw you on nearby stops. I wouldn’t place any stop closer than 10% or 11%, and even then I would watch it closely.
You’re better off watching the investment with a “mental stop” in mind.
His ETFs are heavily traded and I do agree with the 10% thing. I think mental stops are a bad idea unless you can be very, very disciplined. When you are up or down 10% then 20% doesn’t look bad and that continues on the up or down side until you get greedy or stupid…. at least I do.
Goldman Pays to End State Inquiry Into Loans.
By LESLIE WAYNE
Published: May 11, 2009
In the first major settlement involving Wall Street’s role in the subprime mortgage business, the Goldman Sachs Group agreed on Monday to pay up to $60 million to end an investigation by the Massachusetts attorney general’s office into whether the firm helped promote unfair home loans in the state.
The money will be used for a loan modification program that would allow Massachusetts homeowners with mortgages from Goldman entities to write down their principal balances by as much as 50 percent.
The settlement resulted from a continuing investigation by Attorney General Martha Coakley into subprime lending practices and the role of investment banks that acted as middlemen in loans that have resulted in foreclosure or contained terms so onerous that they were destined to fail.
At a news conference, she said that the problem was industrywide and that the Goldman settlement would provide “much needed relief for many in Massachusetts.” Even so, she also criticized what she called predatory lending that was encouraged by Wall Street firms that bought individual subprime mortgages and repackaged them into securitized loans for investors.
“Our office has sought accountability at all levels of the subprime lending crisis,” Ms. Coakley said in a statement. “We will continue to investigate the deceptive marketing of unfair loans and the companies that facilitated the sale of those loans to consumers in the Commonwealth.”
60 million ought to clear this mess right up.
“she also criticized what she called predatory lending that was encouraged by Wall Street firms that bought individual subprime mortgages and repackaged them into securitized loans for investors.”
Hello! Is she in a time machine? “Predatory Lending” is soooo 2007.
She probably still uses an ipod shuffle too. Are there dinosaurs walking around her office?
[the preceding message was sarcastic]
RE: a continuing investigation by Attorney General Martha Coakley into subprime lending practices and the role of investment banks
Mazzland is economically and politically burning into the ground,
and the state AG’s office is focused on saving a bunch of run-down dumps in immigrant urban shitholes like Brockton and Springfield.
Meanwhile towns completely ignore the governor’s dictates that the $43.00 per hour “cops as flagmen details be replaced; and the legislative pension scammers on Beacon Hill continue to do business as usual.
Like there’s any credibility left in this system.
hd74man,
$43 an hour? Where’s my vest!
You know, before Ameriquest went belly-up this was a “strategy” they employed with regularity. I believe we referred to it as “serial settlers”. They’d get spanked w/ a hefty fine, pay it and go back to biz as usual.
It really ‘was’ just that lucrative, so go ahead and fine me!
RE: $43 an hour? Where’s my vest!
Din/OR-If you want a “hot button” issue which sends Mazzlanders right over the edge, it’s the cop “detail” work.
Mazz is the only state in the country, which by law(!) puts uniformed police on every ditch digging and power line tree job in the state. Prevailing wage is $43.00 per hour.
It is this “detail” work which puts small town cops & staties into yearly incomes of six-figures and pensions in the mid-eighties with a late-30’s retirement.
The gov enacted a repeal, but on the first attempt at privatization about 100 off-duty cops showed up at the site and harrassed the hell out of the flaggers to the extent the job boss shut down the project. There were arrests of “cops” by “cops” and it was an pretty ugly situation. The chief was freakin’ out because it was all his men who were breakin’ the law.
Other “Mangina” town managers fearful of such displays knuckled under and refused to go along with the state mandate.
So in the end, all the governor ended up with was some show-boating and puffing before the press on how he was going about facilitate “change” in the way government operates, which all amounted to squat.
Meanwhile all transporation department’s in the Commonwealth are billions in the red, with no way out except a 19 cent gaz tax, which in conjunction with the detail work fiasco puts the private sector crowd right over the edge.
hehehe…remember this is Barney Frank & Ted K. country.
So don’t feel too sorry for the citizenry.
Got a link? I tried searching on some keywords and couldn’t find it. I’m not doubting you, just interested in reading more.
“show-boating and puffing”
So typical, and just long enough for it to blow over then it’s biz as usual. It’s really only been over the last few weeks that people have even mentioned that this outrageous “compensation” would come under fire.
I say turn up the heat!
hd, I used to live in southern NH so I feel your pain. Is Mazzland still paying some cops >$200k a year once overtime is taken into account?
RE: Is Mazzland still paying some cops >$200k a year once overtime is taken into account?
I think there are about 100 state police personel who are over the $200k mark.
The total pension pay-out for this 20-year tenure early retirement crowd is into the tens of millions when measured against projected 80 year life expectencies.
What’s interesting now is that the firemen are really gettin’ pizzed by the “detail” windfalls bein’ reaped by the coppers.
Their union is now pushin’ for their own “details” by having laws enacted which will make places like nightclubs and restaurants hire a “fire safety” observer when capacity reaches a certain point.
This is exactly the type of crap O’Bama is keeping afloat with his stimulus $$$ trillions because the state can’t print it’s own currency to pay for it all.
InMontana-
Ongoing battle…loads of articles in the Beantown Glob
http://www.eot.state.ma.us/default.asp?pgid=content/police_detail&sid=about
…immigrant urban shitholes…
See? I told you Ben doesn’t filter for language!
Is Anyone Minding the Store at the Federal Reserve?
[video] Fed’s Inspector General has no idea where the $9 trillion went?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXlxBeAvsB8
Thanks for the link.
Ron Paul’s bill to audit the Federal Reserve (HR 1207) now has 143 co-sponsors!
I’m e-mailing and telephoning my reps weekly!
Leigh
President Obama may dismantle Fannie and Freddie.
http://tinyurl.com/q9zca5
He’s already quadrupled the deficit in just 90 days, what a hard worker.
Leave it to the ax grinders and Plenty-plaints and their petty beefs.
“Leave it to the ax grinders and Plenty-plaints and their petty beefs.”
It seems like only yesterday the NY Times, DNC, Daily Kos and yourself were beefing about “those irresponsible Bush deficits” as a mark of total stupidity.
Now that TeamObama has quadrupled those deficits, we are supposed to think it is good policy?
Leave it to the corrupt and confused.
It is not perfect policy, but it is generally sane and generally directed to serving the larger welfare of the country as a whole.
And while unfortunate, and quite possible worse than futile, it is necessitated by the grossest corruption and mismanagement since the Romans decided to sell rotten dog meat to starving Vandals.
i have always said that bush will be the second worst president and carter will be the third worst.
this shitstorm is so massive not even obama is can get through it smelling clean.
Nice article on Obamas track record so far.
Disclaimer: I voted Libertarian.
“…i have always said that bush will be the second worst president and carter will be the third worst.”
But, but, but,…Jeb Shrub & “Dickey Boy” Cheney want to be GOP presidents of America…you may have to re-adjust you list.
i have always said that bush will be the second worst president and carter will be the third worst.
I have a friend who likes to say, “Typical. White guys completely screw up the country and then give it to a black guy to clean up”
generally directed to serving the larger welfare of the country as a whole.
Last time I checked, handing billions to irresponsible banks had no effect on the larger welfare of the country as a whole.
What he said……….
If you think the whole economy should revolve around NYC, and th Wall Street/Investment Bank cartel, you will be happy.
A 40% drop in the Dow in a quarter would be considered a diaster, cause for intervention of some kind. A 40% drop in business across the board won’t even show up on the radar screen for four months, and won’t bother anyone until it affects stock prices.
petty beefs. @ 1.8 Trillion
Wonder what the Ground Sirloin costs?
Must not be Exeter’s money.
They have enough of my money. It’s time for tax dodgers, cheats and their apologists to pay up.
Like Ted Kennedy, Geitner and an unerving proportion of the current administration appointees.
Hey..it’s all part of the “Ownership Society” that America bought …WITHOUT reading the Fine Print.
LQQK…Here comes the Bills and the Repo-man !
Maybe we could hope he would change the climate of rampant corruption and dismantle ACORN while he was at it.
cobaltblue,
This is exactly what I was afraid of. Even the slightest criticism of the current administration will buy you 8 years of backlash. No matter how warranted your comment was.
Like Dr. Evil and a whole bag of shush.
Backlash ?
There is no blacklash…really.
It’s just the PRICE we NOW have to PAY for ALLOWING a feeble minded, dry drunk Fratboy with a complimentry MBA and one evil Heavy-Duty sociopathic old bald henceman to run the country for 8 long years.
NO backlash…we just chalk it up as the once “HIDDEN COSTS” of doing Business in their late, great GOP American Empire .
mikey, I think you’re welcome to your anger/frustration, but please devote at least 50% of it to Congress as well. The president/executive doesn’t “run” this country. Congress controls the purse strings. Congress passes laws. Congress gave the executive the ‘okay’ to do all that it did.
Congress controls the purse strings. Congress passes laws. Congress gave the executive the ‘okay’ to do all that it did.
Congress abdicated years ago. Even the NY Times said that in an article a few days back.
Congress abdicated years ago. Even the NY Times said that in an article a few days back.
I suppose that’s my point, though. Much of the anger should be directed at Congress for abdicating their duty. (I think I used that word wrong, but too lazy to think of the “correct” one
Lots of people abdicated their duty, including the 401K owners with lakhs of their own money tied up in a system they never even bothered to inform themselves about.
Amen. My brother tells me he lost 41% of his 401 K because he didn’t listen to me and move it out of stocks and into even a money market. He tells me that’s ok because in 20 years when he needs it, it will be back up. Simple math, bro - you lost 41% - there’s no way to spin that to come up a good thing. And 20 years - you’re in your 50s. This is the 2nd time he’s done this. It took him nearly 10 years to get back what he lost the last time. I told him next time, he can just write me a check for the amount he intends to flush down the toilet.
This is the 2nd time he’s done this. It took him nearly 10 years to get back what he lost the last time.
I have a niece who did the exact same thing.
Congress has found a way for congress people to pursue their own personal agendas - how to amass power and money - while avoiding making tough decisions necessary to the health of the country.
They haven’t abdicated, they have just optimized their business model. Just like the FIRE industries.
“Like Dr. Evil and a whole bag of shush.”
LMFAO!
Scott, come give your father a hug.
“A typical childhood, really, summers in Rangoon”
“…one evil Heavy-Duty sociopathic old bald henceman to run the country for 8 long years.”
In my minds eye…I instantly see Mr.Potter from “it’s a wonderful life”, when Cheney left the “Shadow White House” in a wheel-chair on his last day…pure poetry!
If the GSEs are dismantled, what would they do with all that foreclosure inventory on which they sit? Is there a chance they might actually put it on the market, to finally realize the GSEs’ affordable housing mission by driving prices down to affordable levels?
BTW, I see the government zombie GSEs sitting on all this foreclosure inventory as directly playing into the hands of a new wave of residential investors who are capitalizing on the potential effect of an artificial reduction in inventory on home prices. Competitive private banks would not be able to afford to sit on inventory the way government monopoly GSEs can.
Why Uncle Sam sees his job as helping a new generation of specuvestors and flippers cash in on residential RE while so many families are still unable to afford to house themselves is truly beyond me.
PB,
Well exactly! Just this morning on our little PDX blog there was a post about a local that “flipped 3 foreclosures in the last 2 months”. ( Sounded like bs but whatever )
We’re now at a point where we are actually -inviting- disaster as it ushers in bottom feeding opportunities ( for ’some’ ) What kind of a way is ‘that’ to run an economy? Encourage looting?
“What kind of a way is ‘that’ to run an economy?”
For us, normal.
“Why Uncle Sam sees his job as helping a new generation of specuvestors and flippers cash in on residential RE while so many families are still unable to afford to house themselves is truly beyond me.”
Because that’s the goal.
It keeps the scams going, the money flowing, the leverage high, and the greed running - and it prices out the producing, honest people, which is an added bonus.
“would not be able to afford to sit on inventory”
Perhaps I misspoke here; how much money again was it that Fannie Mae lost last quarter?
I love that idea, PBear! Of course, that means that it will never happen.:-(
PB, nope, I don’t believe they will do anything to facilitate the decline of RE prices. What I said Sat or Sun: too many banks fail if you let prices fall fast. If you drag it out, the amortization keeps up with the depreciation.
Their idea of “affordable housing” is Low Monthly Payments. Forever.
You’ve just summed up current modern capitalism.
Low Monthly Payments Forever.
I say sell the entire Inland Empire to China to raise cash. They’ll feel right at home and we sure don’t need it.
What is “I know I’ve seen this drywall somewhere before” in Mandarin?
The public debt has increased more than a trillion dollars since September 30th! $11,258,693,795,457.10 was our debt status last Friday, barely six months into the present fiscal year. The stupendous debt obligation has doubled in less than a decade. The mainstream media pay scant attention to this time bomb, which accounts for average citizens not being alarmed. They should be. It’s their debt!
I think that the average joe 6 pack expects the gov’t to do a jingle mail on the debt some day.
“Deficits don’t matter.” - Dick Cheney
That’s, “Dickey Boy” Cheney and he thinks that Jeb Shrub III should be the next President, that is unless the GOP selects himself 1st!
Man, I feel like I’m in a dream watching the good ole Southern boys whip their party into shape with the help & guidance of Rash, maybe the “Great Pumpkin” truly will come this Halloween!
The only source for this statement is Paul O’Neill’s book.
Cheney denies it.
John Snow said deficits do matter.
So what’s your point?
Please offer something constructive to the debate.
“Please offer something constructive to the debate”
*jsocal, at this point, I’d settle for a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g “constructive”? Month after month of pointless gloating and winky winking. It wouldn’t even matter if I ‘was’ a Dem. or Red Sox fan or a Chevy guy? It’s just so much ‘clutter’.
“It’s just so much ‘clutter’”
Ha! just like our family “Thanksgiving” feast… Adults & children… blah blah blah, yakity yakity yak, “America’s going to hell in handbasket!” “I’m as mad as heck & I’s ain’t going to take it no’s more”…xxxxoooo… be well! do good things! see you next year!
(Hwy try’s to sneak out to the tree house/yurt)…”Hey Mr., where do think you’re going?, get in here and help clean up this mess!”
Can’t wait!
Here’s something constructive:
I think budget deficits are treasonous. However, I know my fellow citizens could care less. Why? Because they get something for nothing.
If you are on the left, you get free bennies. If you are on the right, you get free tax cuts.
I am a moderate Republican. The Democrats won the last election. I threw my vote away on Ralph Nader. The Dems will rule the way they choose. They won, I’m an American and I accept that with some level of graciousness. I am willing to have my taxes increased to pay for the $1.8T if everyone else is willing to stand up and do the right thing.
Who’s with me? My guess? No one. So I hate to see people complaining about budget deficits. Lefties & Righties pointing fingers at each other. Sad part is both are right in pointing fingers.
Jon,
I will extend you mega-credibility just for omitting winky-smiley faces! In truth, moderates of ‘either’ party were thrown under the bus on this one.
Hell, I’m not exactly ‘rich’ by any measure, so WTF do “I” care about higher taxes? ( Right? ) Ooops, I guess I ‘am’ rich huh?
Well, at least wealthy enough not to qualify for any freebies? Still, I’m reluctant to even criticize Paulsen or Bernanke as they at least must get ’some’ credit for keeping the world spinning? How much bile can I have for BO? I think Mich Malk had it right when even as a non-financial person she openly asked if we hadn’t already weathered the worst of the recession?
$1.8T is probably an extra $10K out of my pocket. I paid a total of $14K out of my pocket in federal taxes last year. I can do the other $10K. It would be painful, but I’d do it.
Again, righties & lefties always want something for nothing. They’re both the same to me.
Jon, I share some of the same mindset as you…except that I threw my vote away on Barr (although if I’d voted for McCain or any other 3rd party candidate that vote would have basically been “thrown away” also, so to speak). I deplore budget deficits and I think the notion of using government deficit spending to “fix” a recessionary situation is very foolish, especially on the scale that the federal government is currently working with.
Now where you lose me is the notion of all US citizens standing up to pay off this $1.8T at once. The total deficit is more than $1.8T at this point…more like $10T not counting Medicare (which just this year began paying out more money than it takes in), and that amount’s not getting paid off any time soon. I didn’t support the government’s deficit spending and I benefited from very little of it. Therefore, I’d consider it almost criminal if the government showed up at my door one day and told me there’d be a national “special assessment” tax increase this year to pay off the huge national debt. Besides, if such a process actually happened I’m sure the government would immediately run up another huge deficit and scalp the populace to pay it off again. Doing something like this would only invite an extreme sort of moral hazard into government spending behavior…and I’m sure the rich would find ways not to have to pay into the increase anyway.
That’s a good way to look at it, Jon. I THINK of myself as a “moderate” Repub but that didn’t stop me for being for Ron Paul, who is anything but moderate. I THINK of myself as consuming no public services except defense and law enforcement and highways, but that’s probably not correct. When I pay my Fed inc tax (more than twice yours) I should just think of it as a partial rebate of the mortgage interest I get from people who think that one of their “benefits” is the tax deduction they are getting by paying me. Even though many of them don’t itemize deductions, that’s what they think…so in a way my income is due largely to the perception that Fed tax rates are high.
Julius,
“Doing something like this would only invite an extreme sort of moral hazard into government spending behavior…and I’m sure the rich would find ways not to have to pay into the increase anyway.”
Isn’t that where we are today anyway?
az_lender,
There wouldn’t be much of a housing market without your municipal zoning agency. How much would someone spend on a house if their neighbor could build a 20 story tenement next door, or a landfill? Answer: almost nothing. The risk would be too high.
When I was younger in Florida, the natives would never buy a house in a new development because you never knew what was actually getting built & who was going to live there. You always waited for the neighborhood to “mature”. There were always too many scams going on.
Neighborhoods of McMansions couldn’t exist without zoning agencies. My point is that the government effects everyone’s income both positively and negatively. No roads, no trade. No judges, no contracts, no commerce.
What gets me is that as a nation we aren’t willing to control our own government. We like to bitch about it a lot. But that’s about it.
az_lender,
Ouch! Like yourself, being in basically the ’service’ end of things there’s just so many fax machine purchases etc. we can show, right? No inventory or cap. equip. to speak of?
Since I don’t have a car and walk to work, I can’t even really count “highways” as a benefit? And of course I’m becoming fabulously wealthy volunteering for the Air Guard?
I will say though that I don’t consider the bailouts ( once selected ) to be over the top. As the economy hopefully recovers, things can be scaled back. But I’m not going to second guess the current admin. every day and in every way for the next 4-8 years ( like ’some’ people we ALL know…. )
Ben,
How much in taxes does all of us Americans really own? I’ve seen the number but forgot.
Thanks.
“The force of a correction is equal and opposite to the deception that preceded it”.
B.Bonner
“The force of a correction is equal and opposite to the deception that preceded it”.
Pretty much sums up the transition from Cheney-Shrub…to…Opie Obama
That’ll be a good one to use for the soon-to-be family “Thanksgiving” feast, thanks!
There’s the rub. It’s not a transition, unless you deal in trifles.
“…unless you deal in trifles”
Ha, I almost forgot…appointing x2 Supreme Court justices…trifle…I’ll have to send an email reminder to the GOP’s “Grand Wizard” Rash Limpbaughs!
I’m a has been Republican. I cannot listen to Rush. Really.
“I’m a has been Republican. I cannot listen to Rush. Really.”
Yep. I’m a registered republican in 3 NY counties and 2 VT counties. (It’s a fact).
Most real real republicans can’t listen to Rash The Victimhooder either.
Yep…talk radio from the RepDems is little more than propaganda. Plus, it always seems to share the MSM’s “short-sighted tunnel vision” syndrome; talk hosts always seem to expend most of their effort spinning picayune daily news “stories” instead of taking a long view of the country and/or its economy. I could stomach Rush’s asinine partisan chatter if he at least delivered good analysis on broad, important trends in American politics…but he doesn’t.
I saw Rush speak as a kid. The image of his gut protruding from the bottom of an ill-fitted bulletproof vest has always stuck with me.
You know, to some degree Obama resembles Reagan. They were both elected in the face of a declining economy and promised to do something about the federal debt. The both balooned that debt to levels that made their predecessors look positively thrifty.
to some degree Obama resembles Reagan
Whoa! Watch what you say, man! Exeter might choke to death if he reads that. I rather like having him around.
RE: The both balooned that debt to levels that made their predecessors look positively thrifty.
At least with his deficits Reagan broke the Russkies and ended the Cold War.
What’s O’Bama’s “cold war” plan?
Put all the Section 8 crowd into detached single family homes owned by the government GSE’s and let what’s left of the middle class taxpayer pay for their heating fuel bill?
Or exactly the black-hole welfare entitlement shit Reagan blocked Tip O’Neal and Teddy Kennedy’s Congress from doling out.
“The both ballooned that debt to levels that made their predecessors look positively thrifty.”
Jimmy the “peanut farmer”…or…Shrub the Tayhos “Oil man”
Quick, without using wiki, which would you title “Thrifty”?
“The force of a correction is equal and opposite to the deception that preceded it”. B.Bonner
Taking this in a non-political way, it really sums up my beliefs about markets: the correction will be equal and opposite to the original level of dis-equilibrium.
I think it applies equally well to the housing market, the stock market, bond markets, treasuries market, etc, etc.
Gary North asks the question politicians avoid. “Who will redeem all those non-marketable IOUs from the U.S. government that sit in the computerized accounts of the Social Security Trust Fund and the Medicare Trust Fund? No one in authority dares to ask this question in public view.
How the Social Security con game works: “The government borrows money from the Social Security Trust Fund, issuing non-marketable IOUs as receipts. This is a swap. It then tells the government’s accountants to count the borrowed money as net revenue in the government’s on-budget account, thereby reducing the deficit. It also tells the accountants not to count the IOUs as liabilities.
“This is how Enron shoved its liabilities off its books: dummy corporations taking the liabilities. This is also how hedge funds did it. Substitute ‘Social Security Trust Fund’ and ‘Medicare Trust Fund’ for ‘dummy corporations,’ and you have the government’s program to reduce the deficit.
Al Gore got laughed at when he brought this up during the elections of 2000. Americans didn’t care then, they don’t care now.
Of course as the day when those IOUs start to be called in approaches the Rich and Powerful are starting to care. Because while they pay a smaller proportion of their income into payroll taxes than the rest of us, they pay more of their income into income taxes than we do. So while they’ve been getting a sweet deal for the last ~20 years they’re trying very hard to persuade the rest of us that we need to change the rules for funding SS retirement before the boomers start collecting.
Not the funding, but pay outs.
Expect means testing.
Yup.
I think that’s the only way it’s going to work. I’m saving today (in my mid-30’s) with the expectation that I’ll be paying into SS my whole life and not get a penny out of it.
Reason number 38 that I’m still renting–I can save a lot more money for the future.
Obama called anyone making more than $250K rich. I see the bar has now been lowered to anyone who pays more income tax than payroll tax…which is about $60K.
Ahh class warfare, ain’t it fun? Except that your so-called rich and powerful is the middle class.
250k is not anywhere near middle class.
250k puts you in the top 1.93% according to Wikipedia.
If it were, then a middle class home would pencil out at $750k.
My wife and I run vaguely close to that number, and we’re not middle class. We’re poor. Can’t afford to buy a house. Wife won’t let me buy a beater used card to commute in cause we need to save money to buy a house.
At least we’re only poor and not in debt.
“50k is not anywhere near middle class.
250k puts you in the top 1.93% according to Wikipedia.
If it were, then a middle class home would pencil out at $750k.”
Read my post again. I didn’t say $250K was middle class. I said the definition of “rich” is sliding quickly and is now down to $60K according to Jim A.’s definition (those who pay more in tax than in payroll tax)
Many small business owners run so-called “Subchapter S” corporations where the company’s income flows first to its owner before being redistributed to the rest of the business. Consequently, these business owners often appear to have enormous incomes when in fact they may take home only $70-80k. Thus, taxing the daylights out of these people will only serve to strain America’s small businesses even more.
+1
Jim the really rich and really powerfull pay a far lower effective tax rate than the middle and upper middle class. They also don’t care about the debt because they are the primary beneficiaries. You’ll know when the rich and the powerfull care about the debt when the government starts doing something about it.
Yes, but they know that they HAVE the money, and when the boomers want to retire they’ll WANT the money. Because paying back the trust fund is EASY if you go back to the marginal income tax rates that we had back in the 60s and 70s.
KJ I don’t define the rich as those who pay more income taxes. Rather the well off pay a higher percentage of their income into income taxes than the rest of us. And the rest of us pay a higher percentage of our income into payroll taxes than they do.
“This is how Enron shoved its liabilities off its books: dummy corporations taking the liabilities. ”
It’s good to know that for once the US goverment has provided REAL leadership: they were the first to practice this form of fraud on a massive scale!
Great analogy, btw… I’d never though of the similarities in approach.
WASHINGTON – The government will have to borrow nearly 50 cents for every dollar it spends this year, exploding the record federal deficit past $1.8 trillion under new White House estimates. Budget office figures released Monday would add $89 billion to the 2009 red ink — increasing it to more than four times last year’s all-time high as the government hands out billions more than expected for people who have lost jobs and takes in less tax revenue from people and companies making less money.
The unprecedented deficit figures flow from the deep recession, the Wall Street bailout and the cost of President Barack Obama’s economic stimulus bill — as well as a seemingly embedded structural imbalance between what the government spends and what it takes in.
As the economy performs worse than expected, the deficit for the 2010 budget year beginning in October will worsen by $87 billion to $1.3 trillion, the White House says. The deterioration reflects lower tax revenues and higher costs for bank failures, unemployment benefits and food stamps.
Just a few days ago, Obama touted an administration plan to cut $17 billion in wasteful or duplicative programs from the budget next year. The erosion in the deficit announced Monday is five times the size of those savings.
For the current year, the government would borrow 46 cents for every dollar it takes to run the government under the administration’s plan. In 2010, it would borrow 35 cents for every dollar spent.
“In 2010, it would borrow 35 cents for every dollar spent.”
Don’t be surprised when that becomes an impossible goal and the real number is closer to 50 per cent.
who is loaning us all that frakkin money and why?
why are they only charging us 3% interest?
something stinks.
The Federal Reserve?
“In 2010, it would borrow 35 cents for every dollar spent.”
I believe that assumes that growth will hit a 3% annual rate by the end of the year. I don’t think that too many of us ’round here find that particularly likely. Michael people are lending the government money at 3% because that’s a darn sight better than loosing 20% in the stock market.
“Deficits don’t matter” - Dick Cheney
So far as I can tell, the lender’s elephant (massive shadow inventory held off the market for strategic purposes, with many more foreclosures to come) is still thriving under the living room rug.
Wall Street Journal
* REAL ESTATE
* MAY 12, 2009
April Drop in Listings for Homes
By JAMES R. HAGERTY
The number of homes listed for sale in many U.S. cities continued to fall in April in what some analysts see as a sign that the market may be nearing a bottom. But the picture is clouded by uncertainty over how many foreclosed properties will hit the market.
The supply of homes for sale in 29 major metropolitan areas at the end of April was down 3.6% from a month earlier, according to figures compiled by ZipRealty Inc., a real-estate brokerage firm based in Emeryville, Calif. The ZipRealty data cover all single-family homes, condominiums and town houses listed on local multiple-listing services in metro areas where the firm operates.
Home Supply Continues to Fall
View Interactive
On a national basis, inventories typically increase in April as for-sale signs bloom for the spring home-shopping season. Since 1982, the average increase in April from the prior month has been 4.8%, according to Zelman & Associates, a research firm.
Compared with the year-earlier month, the April inventory in the 29 metro areas was down 21%.
The National Association of Realtors says about 3.7 million homes were listed for sale nationwide at the end of March, down 10% from a year earlier. But that number doesn’t include all of the foreclosed homes that banks aim to sell.
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, among the biggest owners of foreclosed homes, typically have only about 35% to 50% of those homes listed for sale at any given time, according to industry estimates. At one of the nation’s largest banks, about 60% of the foreclosed homes are listed, according to a person familiar with the situation. Some foreclosed homes aren’t listed because they are being offered for rental; others are awaiting repairs or are subject to litigation or other delays.
Never heard of Advanta, but apparently a million or so people have…
Advanta Shuts Down Credit-Card Lending Amid Surging Charge-Offs
By Hugh Son
May 12 (Bloomberg) — Advanta Corp., the issuer of credit cards for small businesses, will halt new lending for its 1 million customers next month as the recession causes a surge in loan defaults.
Lending ceases June 10. Advanta will use as much as $1.4 billion to pay investors of its securitized credit-card loans part of the debt’s face value, the Spring House, Pennsylvania- based company said yesterday in a statement. Advanta said it’s preserving capital after charge-offs, or uncollectible debt, reached 20 percent on some cards as of March 31.
“This is a Hail Mary pass: They’re hoping they can stay alive barely until the environment changes,” said David Robertson, president of the Nilson Report, the Carpinteria, California-based industry newsletter.
Advanta has reported three consecutive quarterly losses and has seen its shares plunge from about $30 in June 2007 to $1.13 at the close of New York trading yesterday. The U.S. jobless rate reached 8.5 percent in March, a 25-year high, squeezing sales for small business owners. The economic slowdown affected Advanta’s customers across the country, Chief Financial Officer Philip Browne has said.
“We’ll be shutting down accounts for future transaction activities, but many of the customers will maintain balances and pay us off over time,” Browne said yesterday in a telephone interview. “We’ll have to service and collect on that, and that will be the first order of business for the company.”
Wow, don’t know how I missed that one. I have a card from them, it was the best deal in balance transfer cards about 2 years ago. Incredible rate, 1.9% fixed for life on anything you BTed to them when you opened the account. I took the cash, dropped it in a CD at almost 5% and am paying them off the min each month.
I wonder if the problem is charge-offs, or if it’s that more people did what I’m doing (which is certainly costing them money)?
Oh well, sounds like I’ll still have the same IR moving forward, so I just continue to pay them my 1.9%.
Looks like the affluent and would-be affluent might decide to leave Brooklyn to the Brooklynites.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/realestate/10cov.html?_r=1&hpw
“Great Recession prices are drawing even the most loyal outer-borough dwellers back to Manhattan. The migrants hail from Hoboken, Astoria and the brownstone blocks off Prospect Park, as New Yorkers who found themselves priced out of the gilded isle in the boom years are bidding farewell to long commutes and skinny-jean chic.”
“Among the lures: $1,600 one-bedrooms on the Lower East Side. Lenient landlords who no longer require security deposits. And an overriding sense that an obscenely overpriced borough is now, well, slightly more reasonably overpriced.’
Local landlords have yet to catch on that the game is up.
“Numbers on the New York rental market are notoriously unreliable, but recent reports suggest that rents are falling faster in Manhattan than in neighboring boroughs.”
“I always assumed that Manhattan was way too expensive for me and out of my reach,” said Mr. Schenkel, who moved to the city in 2006. But when his landlord threatened a $100 rent increase, he decided to shop around.”
Perhaps the landlord just purchased that three-family and had a mortgage payment to make. I pity the poor family that did a gut rehab and was featured on “This Old House” this season.
I always love the Hoboken bash. When I lived there, I got to Midtown faster than most Manhattanites. Talk about Kool aid.
Ah but that has changed lately on the weekends. The schedule on PATH stinks to high heavens, especially late nights after all the partying in Manhattan.
I enjoyed a trip to NYC last October. Coming from a town of less than a thousand, it was quite the culture shock. People…everywhere! I was also shocked at the number of huge condo complexes in Hell’s kitchen, most of which were a 15 or 20 minute walk from a useful subway station. I’d have a tough time paying $2 million to live there.
I’d have a tough time paying $2 million to live or do anything else anywhere.
Hooray for Brooklyn! Huzzah for Hoboken! May they return to normalcy.
Every longtimer I know in NYC (which, granted, isn’t many these days) was driven out of Manhattan a decade ago to seek greener pastures in other boroughs. I don’t think any of them would go back, though — there are plenty of more affordable, more livable ‘hoods in Brooklyn and Queens.
On the other hand, maybe Manhattan will regain a little of its old crusty charm. During the boom, it became too sanitized, too upscale, too mall-like.
“I pity the poor family……”
I don’t………I can’t even watch that show anymore. It’s like watching the government restore George Washington”s axe……..the handle is new, and the axe-head is new, but it’s “original”, and only cost $100,000.
A few years back, they did a barn restoration/conversion into a house…….the guys did a survey and found that these items needed to be replaced:
-the foundation
-the primary structure
-the sides
-the roof
The estimate for “restoration”? Something like $800K, as I recall.
Of course, they gave the green light.
“We had to destroy the village to save it.”
Restoration? At that point it’s a straight out “demo and new build, but it looks exactly the old building.”
That’s some very expensive pig lipstick.
My sister owns a piece of GMAC — she and GM assembly line worker hubby bought GMAC bonds a few years ago. I don’t want to own any of GMAC. Why should I have to own GMAC? Owning GMAC is not good for America.
I like the writer’s school comparison in this article; while my kids’ schools are figuring out which teachers to ax, I can rest satisfied that our tax dollars are getting funded into low-interest loans to purchase more automobiles to clog the nation’s freeways.
Wall Street Journal
* THE GAME
* MAY 12, 2009
Get Ready: You Will Own GMAC, Too
By DENNIS K. BERMAN
Congratulations, taxpayers. Soon GMAC LLC, the money-burning auto and mortgage lender, will likely join Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, American International Group and Citigroup in your investment portfolio. By the time all the checks have cleared, you may have sunk upward of $20 billion into this former ward of General Motors, an amount equivalent to $210,000 for each of the nation’s public schools.
GMAC differs from other companies under the government thumb because it isn’t too big to fail. So the government doesn’t need to save GMAC to safeguard the financial system.
Instead, GMAC must be saved, the argument goes, to revive the auto industry and consumer economy. The details of that approach are strikingly scarce. In fact, nearly everything about GMAC — its mission, board, and future ties to government — is unknown. As Winston Churchill might put it, GMAC is a financial black hole stuffed into a governance black box.
These details matter. The Treasury is in the middle of a plan to turn privately held GMAC into a new über auto-lender, financed with taxpayer dollars and likely falling under taxpayer control. This has the potential to spark unintended consequences across the auto and banking markets, similar to the quasigovernmental meddlings of Fannie and Freddie.
Would this government-sanctioned company have an unfair funding advantage against Ford Motor’s Ford Motor Credit, for instance? Would it be willing to do the politically unpalatable work of cutting credit to certain car dealers? What happens if Congress starts mandating low-cost auto loans?
Oddly, Congress and the rest of the country seem to have grown numb to the bailouts. Not once has GMAC been discussed substantively in a congressional hearing.
Geithner = the new decider
Speaking of a daisy petal plucking “I love you… I love not”, anyone know what Spankin’ Hank is up to these days?
Can’t say what he’s doing professionally, but I bumped into him taking his grandson to my kid’s gym class in Lakeview, Chicago. He was heavily disguised as a real person, in jeans and plaid. But the goldplated scowl and the bendy little finger were a dead giveaway. Must have time on his hands.
I made the joke about Geithener being “the decider” several days ago.
Wouldn’t a paraphrase of Churchill read more like “a ripoff, wrapped in a misery, inside a smegma”?
IIRC - Cerebus was behind GMAC as well as Chrysler. I think that makes them too well connected to fail.
“Cerebus was behind GMAC”
Is that where a former Treasury secretary works?
Ah yes…
Economy May 2009 Atlantic
The crash has laid bare many unpleasant truths about the United States. One of the most alarming, says a former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, is that the finance industry has effectively captured our government—a state of affairs that more typically describes emerging markets, and is at the center of many emerging-market crises. If the IMF’s staff could speak freely about the U.S., it would tell us what it tells all countries in this situation: recovery will fail unless we break the financial oligarchy that is blocking essential reform. And if we are to prevent a true depression, we’re running out of time.
by Simon Johnson
…
One channel of influence was, of course, the flow of individuals between Wall Street and Washington. Robert Rubin, once the co-chairman of Goldman Sachs, served in Washington as Treasury secretary under Clinton, and later became chairman of Citigroup’s executive committee. Henry Paulson, CEO of Goldman Sachs during the long boom, became Treasury secretary under George W.Bush. John Snow, Paulson’s predecessor, left to become chairman of Cerberus Capital Management, a large private-equity firm that also counts Dan Quayle among its executives. Alan Greenspan, after leaving the Federal Reserve, became a consultant to Pimco, perhaps the biggest player in international bond markets.
These personal connections were multiplied many times over at the lower levels of the past three presidential administrations, strengthening the ties between Washington and Wall Street. It has become something of a tradition for Goldman Sachs employees to go into public service after they leave the firm. The flow of Goldman alumni—including Jon Corzine, now the governor of New Jersey, along with Rubin and Paulson—not only placed people with Wall Street’s worldview in the halls of power; it also helped create an image of Goldman (inside the Beltway, at least) as an institution that was itself almost a form of public service.
And a former Senator/Vice-President.
“Oddly, Congress and the rest of the country seem to have grown numb to the bailouts. Not once has GMAC been discussed substantively in a congressional hearing.”
‘Splains alot…
“I can rest satisfied that our tax dollars are getting funded into low-interest loans to purchase more automobiles to clog the nation’s freeways.”
You know, if our current ruling class was really interested in reducing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, they were recently handed the opportunity of a lifetime, and they didn’t even have to do anything, just take credit for it. Yet they seem determined to have us continue to produce and buy more cars than we even need or want. I wonder why?
“I wonder why?”
because the fed government could give a rat’s ass about CO2 ommissions?
they just wat the additional tax revenues.
(i know you knew the answer)
doh…emissions.
need my other cup of coughee.
“because the fed government could give a rat’s ass about CO2 ommissions?”
Steve Chu cares. Seriously. He had lunch with my boss a few months back.
“You know, if our current ruling class was really interested in reducing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, they were recently handed the opportunity of a lifetime, and they didn’t even have to do anything, just take credit for it. Yet they seem determined to have us continue to produce and buy more cars than we even need or want.”
I do agree with just letting the market settle the issue w.r.t. cars and the manufacturers and other polluters. We just have to figure out a way to internalize the externalities, no? Is there a better way to do it than using a quantity mechanism (cap and trade) with the market setting the price, after the initial credits are auctioned/given away? The carbon tax (price mechanism) seems even worse. Thoughts? And “CO2 is not a problem/not anthropomorphic” is not an acceptable answer.
MrBubble
I’ve not thought of it this way, but you’re right, Mr. Bubble. If the cost is passed on to the consumer (as it will be), then really all that’s happening is that the retail cost of the product is reflecting the *real* cost of the product in it’s lifetime. Of course, this should become true of everything - including disposal costs, healthcare costs, etc.
However, the fact remains that the gov’t likely just wants the income, and isn’t exactly interested in stopping the offloading of these costs to the general public/taxpayer/etc.
“Steve Chu cares. Seriously.”
my older brother who is an FBI special agent would respond to you like this.
everyone cares and all “plans” seem like great plans on the surface. like a politician that wants to use government funds to build a privae security prison in a community. it creates jobs and alleviates the total state prison budget.
then you find out the politicians brother-in-law owns the security company.
I agree with you about the prisons and financial interests and for the most part, I do follow a “follow the money” sort of ethic. But, getting into feeding the homeless here in SF has made me see that not everybody is in it for the money. I think that that the greed of the 80s, which became an art form in the 90s has colored our thinking so that we only think in those terms. I really feel that scientists who become policy makers really would like to try to solve problems. Yes, they get grant money, but I don’t see a lot of rich scientists. Lots of them wearing awful tweed coats with suede elbow patches…
MrBubble
Bless you, MrB.
‘Tis twue. Some of us do indeed have other motivations.
I just discovered the subway/train system for Los Angeles. It’s inexpensive and opens up weekend adventures.
Nat’l Train Day at Union Station was fun.I saw a map of the planned U.S. Maglev train system, and it has way to many holes. I am assuming what I saw was phase 1.
Is that the $12B train from Los Angeles to Las Vegas? The same train that got $10B from the “stimulus” bill? And the same train that totally by coincidence will run between the home states of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi?
That train?
Aw, dude - don’t get me started. See my post below. You are so right, this is an opportunity of a lifetime for some real change and pushing debt and hyper-consumption is all this gov’t can think of.
edge-
I’m a dudette. With all the $ our govt. wastes, I am hoping they actually accomplish a state of the art, and well connected maglev train system. It was disappointing to see regional, but no long distance connections.
My apologies. This issue leaves me incensed. There are just so many better uses for time, money, and resources than propping up dead companies. Especially when said companies produce a product that consumers spurn and that has never been very friendly to the notion of sustainability.
Maglev ain’t ever gonna happen
-Makes no sense for long distance travel, when the track is $10 million bucks/mile, and you can fly over the same territory, twice as fast. And every foot of it will need to be guarded by the TSA.
-NIMBY-ism will keep it out of the areas where it makes sense. (NE corridor, San Diego-LA-SFO)….no support from local governments unless the train stops there, and stops every 5-10-20 miles defeat the purpose of the Maglevs speed.
X-GSFixer,
Well, o.k… other than ‘that’! I mean state your case man!
Yeah, schwew, never even thought about it that way. NEXT!
What we really need is a transcontinental subway.
What we need is a retractable shaded plastic dome over the entire US.
I’ll bring it up with my next union meeting with GM !
“What happens if Congress starts mandating low-cost auto loans?”
I always knew this would happen.
So much for this administration caring anything about the ecology. All they want is to spur consumption and push debt - all while expanding their power. Putting people into “homes” went so well - the auto is a natural follow up.
The government will provide housing, cars, higher ed, and who knows what else. In exchange many will work for corporations (either directly or through debt service) - that are in essence the real government anyway.
Picture a really big version of a turn-of-the-century West Virginia coal mining town and it’s “company store” and “company housing”.
“So much for this administration caring anything about the ecology. All they want is to spur consumption and push debt - all while expanding their power. Putting people into “homes” went so well - the auto is a natural follow up.”
Yep…this cash for clunkers strategy seems really wasteful to me. The legislation apparently considers cars made as recently as 2001 as “clunkers”; it then gives much less incentive cash for cars built before 2001 (i.e., the real clunkers). So we’re going to be crushing a whole bunch of circa-2001 cars just to let a dead manufacturing industry marginally improve its sales figures? The “clunkers” that Obama is targeting likely still have a lot of life left in them; destroying them is simply wasting the energy it took to build them in the name of pursuing a dubious goal.
That is exactly the goal.
Get everyone deeply in debt so they can’t really afford to buy anything, but must lease everything from their fickle leaders. That way, they won’t have any power and will vote as they are told.
Does this qualify as a “green shoot”?
U.S. Trade Deficit Widens First Time in Eight Months (Update1)
By Bob Willis
May 12 (Bloomberg) — The U.S. trade deficit widened in March for the first time in eight months as the global economic slump pushed exports to the lowest level in more than two years.
The gap expanded 5.5 percent to $27.6 billion, smaller than forecast, from a nine-year low of $26.1 billion in February, Commerce Department figures showed today in Washington. Imports also decreased as a drop in demand for industrial supplies such as natural gas and steel offset an increase in oil.
“drop in demand for industrial supplies such as natural gas and steel offset an increase in oil”
Therein lies the contradiction. Oil sits at the foundation of the industrial supply matrix. I see no indication in my world that industrial demand is rebounding, not an iota. The guys on Wall Street are expecting a miracle a few months out, is all I can figure.
I’m at the SVC show in Santa Clara. My friends from this braod industrial group are waiting for a bullit to the head. Running out of time, running on fumes.
Sat next to a very nice lady on the 6 hour flight. She is a corporate officer therapist (my interpretation) and deals in realistic planning consultation. Her take on the business world: Adapt. The reality we were used to doesn’t exist anymore. We’ll do with less, and that will be a good thing.
“The reality we were used to doesn’t exist anymore.”
I’m with her on that one. Watching all of these people carry on with their routines so blithely is tragi-comic. Folks, the life that you knew and expect is over. D-U-N.
Disclaimer: I bought a pair of Lucky jeans and some Chuck T’s last weekend. I caved ‘cuz my other pair had holes in the seat and I can’t dye, sew, weave, spin, forge buttons or grow cotton. Yet.
MrBubble
My guess is the only reason oil imports were higher was price, and as far as I can tell the only reason the price is higher is manipulation.
Blue, I wish I could pass this to my friends in the way you describe it here. They all think I’m nuts. I’m not as dark as Kunstler, but I really don’t think the X’ers / Y’ers (especially) understand what’s in the bag.
Yes, boomers, I am bashing my own
What is an “SVC show”?
Now wait a minute! The trade gap slowed it’s rate of increase, then quit growing, and then got smaller. It isn’t allowed to get bigger again, otherwise this isn’t a recovery.
Luckily this couldn’t happen with consumer confidence, housing sales, employment, etc. Green shoots never die (except the trade gap, just a fluke.)
Of course it’s a green shoot! Didn’t you catch that part “smaller than forecast”? The real problem is that the article writer isn’t hip on how to write good headlines for today’s green shoot world. The editor should have made the headline: “More proof recession is over: trade gap smaller than forecast” or something.
The trick here is to predict something appalling, and then when it doesn’t happen, to claim happy days are back. The question is why journalists take such phony, manipulative predictions seriously in the first place. They are not real numbers reflecting real future events: They are made up numbers reflecting made-up future events.
This is all disinformation designed to sway public opinion and boost whatever stocks etc. the forecasters themselves are holding, or boost the popularity ratings of whatever politician is in power. The NAR has made it into an art form. It goes with the pending sales figures the NAR puts out every month, pretending that pending sales are actual sales.
The same journalists who would ridicule some psychic making dire predictions seem to have no trouble when a self-serving governmental agency, a private corporation, or some boring economist makes such predictions based on absolutely nothing but a guesswork addition to, or subtraction from, some previous month’s or quarter’s numbers. The administration told us the world was ending just a few months ago, and now, when none of the stimulus has actually gone anywhere, it is telling us that the world has been saved. It would be funny, if the entire Press wasn’t acting as a part of its PR team.
Calling an additional half million Americans on unemployment a good thing shows how easily any statistic can be manipulated to produce any desired result. And those of us who’ve been visiting this board for years actually once believed that the truth would eventually win out. . . .
I’m not really sure all of these predictions are made in the first place. I always see stuff that says “beat analyst’s expectations”, but I never see a reference to the document where the “analyst” made the prediction to start with.
Heh heh heh…
Paul B. Farrell
May 11, 2009, 7:14 p.m. EST
Five reasons ‘neuroeconomics’ is a big, fat hoax
Why? They’re mercenaries-for-hire working for Wall Street’s highest bidders
By Paul B. Farrell, MarketWatch
ARROYO GRANDE, Calif. (MarketWatch) — Yes, neuroeconomics is a hoax. And I’m “mad as hell” about it. Call it whatever name you want, they’re all the same: Behavioral finance, psychology of investing, behavioral economics, the “new science of irrationality.” Let’s call it “neuroeconomics.” And yes, it’s a scam, a con job, propaganda, a big fat hoax.
Neuroeconomists sell themselves as guardians of the little guy. Wrong. Just the opposite. They are your enemy, working for Wall Street and Washington, developing data, tools and technologies to secretly manipulate investors, savers, voters and taxpayers.
Don’t believe me? I didn’t believe it at first. Back in 2002 when Princeton psychologist Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel Economics Prize I was ecstatic. He exposed Wall Street’s two-century-old myth of the “rational investor.” We cheered. Yes, investors are irrational, but we can change. Right? Maybe Wall Street will even help.
Fat chance. Since then, neuroeconomists chased the almighty buck too, doing whatever it takes to get research grants, speaking fees, university tenure and juicy consulting contracts with Wall Street, Washington and Corporate America. They are obsessed with pretty-colored MRI brain scans, misusing the scientific method, exaggerating, misinterpreting research.
The result? In recent years many of their publications resemble high school level self-help “Psych 101″ books with cute titles like “Freakonomics,” “Nudge,” “Sway,” “Animal Spirits,” “Blink,” “Blunder” and other pulp nonfiction packaged for mass-market consumption.
Or Paul B. Farrell columns?
Ahem, in all the years people have thrust his ‘wisdom’ in my face I’ve yet to see him take a position, other than everything is a hoax.
Methinks the psycholeconomists tend to forget about relevant non-psychological constraints on economic behavior, such as incomes and budget limits.
“…non-psychological constraints on economic behavior, such as incomes and budget limits”
Mr. Bear, stop it already…you’re killing me!
“Blink,”
Hey, leave blink alone! I’ve meet him, and believe me, he doesn’t need a “Neuroeconomists” to tell him which way the wind is blowing!
Maybe a neuro-economist could help me properly allocate neurons to productive tasks instead of focusing on the NHL playoffs.
HD,
You are really pushing it these days buddy. Get your act together or else.
I don’t mean to quibble with the blog administrator, but is this in reference to hd74man? I don’t share his cynicism, but he has his facts right about the Massapocalypse that is slowly, slowly underway here.
Some times you guys won’t see things like racial inappropriate comments get through. That’s all I’m gonna say.
Having attended college outside Brockton, it is certainly pretty rough and has been for years. I can’t imagine it has improved any since the late 1970s.
hd does tend to tell it like it is, even if a tad rough around the edges.
I remember times at the Westgate Mall fondly. Where have you gone, Orange Julius??? Never stopped at Llums when I had the chance…
In that case, I thank you for your work, and I will go shut up now.
I have to agree with both you and hd about Mass. What’s happening there is truly horrific, IMO. I don’t seen how anyone who is middle or upper middle income manages to survive.
With the possible exception of New Hampsha, I see this infection spreading to all of New England. I don’t understand it. The wealthy elites are gonna wonder where their buffers went. Wealthy elites and the low income or no income don’t pay any taxes, effectively. They’re killing the host. Deval Patrick knows only one class, the victim class, and that’s his constituency. Nice program of free cars for welfare recipients. Whassamatta, public transportation isn’t good enuf for them?
Not that I liked Romney any better.
Wealthy elites and the low income or no income don’t pay any taxes, effectively. They’re killing the host.
That seems to be happening all over, not just in Massachusetts.
We Love ya Ben in NYC…come visit us…..
Ben,
I don’t know who HD is but just the tone of your posting gave me a hardy laugh for the day. Thanks!!
You’re allowed to get $650,000 behind on your mortgage before you get foreclosed on if your father was a member of the Gambino crime family:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/05112009/news/regionalnews/bank_forecloses_on_victoria_gottis_estat_168711.htm
I wrote music for that show in 2003/4, and the footage of their house was nasty back then. There was even an episode where a realtor came over — she was not happy about the puke filled garbage cans.
I watched that show once, what a bunch of low life trash, and the house, holy smokes, fake looking gaudy big dump.
You just described my morning constitutional! I knew I should have been content with the whole enchilada and not gone back for a second one.
(CNN) — Postal authorities say a Michigan postal worker has admitted to stealing some $20,000 worth of first-class stamps since September and trying to sell them to online auction-site customers to help pay his mortgage.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/12/michigan.stamp.theft/index.html
Ha. You beat me to it Mugster.
Leigh
No problem, Leigh. Together we can come up with some sort of “Forever Stamp” joke to tie it all together.
So at age 36 the guy was finally… able to fulfill his ‘dream’ of getting on at the POST Office and buy the home he so richly “deserved”?
So he had a little “side” business..?
I guess that the Feds will stamp out his little “side” business …Forever.
Econwatch CBS
May 12, 2009 3:06 AM
It’s A Good Time To Work For Uncle Sam
President Obama’s call last year for “shared sacrifice” doesn’t extend to federal employees, at least based on the details of his administration’s 2010 budget released this week.
At a time when the official unemployment rate is nearing double digits, and 6.35 million people are receiving unemployment benefits, the U.S. government is on a hiring binge.
Executive branch employment — 1.98 million in 2009, excluding the Postal Service and the Defense Department — is set to increase by 15.6 percent for the 2010 fiscal year. Most of that is thanks to the Census Bureau hiring 102,000 temporary workers, but not counting them still yields a net increase of 2 percent in one year.
There’s little belt-tightening in evidence in Washington, D.C.: Counting benefits, the average pay per federal worker will leap from $72,800 in 2008 to $75,419 next year.
Meanwhile, according to Forbes’ layoff tracker, there have been 558,087 layoffs since November 2008 at large public companies; even local school districts aren’t immune. That’s just a sliver of the total unemployed, which government data estimate to be 8.6 percent of the workforce, or an alternate method of reckoning that counts discouraged workers puts at 20 percent.
Some of the Feds’ hiring increases have been stunning. If you look at the four-year period from 2006 to 2010, the number of Homeland Security employees has grown by 22 percent, the Justice Department has increased by 15 percent, and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission can claim 25 percent more employees. (These figures assume that Congress adopts Mr. Obama’s 2010 budget without significant changes.)
A 39-page “dimensions” document accompanying the White House’s 1,380-page appendix offers justifications for each new hire. Homeland Security says its new employees will “increase border security.” The Agency for International Development wants to improve “the management and stewardship of foreign assistance programs.” The Smithsonian Institution wants “additional security guards.” And so on.
The final evidence that it’s a good time to have a .gov e-mail address? Civilian government employees are set to enjoy a 2 percent raise. Not only are private sector workers are struggling to keep their jobs, but their earnings are stagnating and pay cuts are no longer uncommon.
I hope they hire me I have an interview with the ICU department at the V.A. today. The problem is they are so slow and I am a army vet (82nd airborne div). I put an app. in 1 year ago this is my fourth Interview with them. It took 3 months to get back to me on the first, by them I started a new nursing program so I could not take that clinic job.
I think if you compare 2000 to 2010, the number of Homeland Security employees has grown by infinity.
That’s great, because I just don’t feel safe. I Lysol all my mail, and keep a box of duct tape in the closet.
I know those nasty terrorists are out to get me, so much so, that I don’t even worry about the street crime that’s raging outside my door each and every day.
(snark at gov’t policy and popular culture - not at you btw)
Homeland Security makes me feel less safe. Since they been at the airports theft from airline passengers has sky rocketed. How can you trust people who steal to safeguard the public?
How can you trust people who steal to safeguard the public? I don’t know, but the electorate sure likes to vote them back into office, again and again and again.
Perhaps, but remember this: civilian federal employees are rounding error in the federal budget, because aside from National Defense, Homeland Security and the Post Office, the federal government doesn’t actually do anything.
It takes in the most money, but most of it goes right out again for interest, Social Security, health care programs (with work actually done by the health care industry), and aid to states (with work actually done by local governments.
Local governments do most of the work. And for government services you can actually see, state governments actually make most of the decisions.
“…offers justifications for each new hire. Homeland Security says its new employees will “increase border security.” The Agency for International Development wants to improve “the management and stewardship of foreign assistance programs.” The Smithsonian Institution wants “additional security guards.”
See what happens when your “political leaders” convince the 300 + million population of the “most powerful” Nation on Earth that their very existence is in jeopardy of destruction because of x1 Saudi fanatic & his x12 Saudi dwarf merry men with pilot licenses have x1 plan that works 1x…American can’t print enough money or hire enough TSA agents fast enough to: “preserve the Union”
You know, if we’d just had a policy of secured, locked doors to the cabin on commercial airliners like Israel does, all of this could have been avoided.
all of this could have been avoided. You seem to be operating under the assumption that the purpose was transportation safety, rather than providing jobs for the TSA.
40k+ people a year die because of transportation safety issues.
Automobiles are the real killers.
I got hit from behind, nudged, by a car while walking in my kid’s school parking lot recently. No injury, though it scared me. Daughter next to me, chirping about the day and rolling her LL Bean backpack. He was doing maybe 2 mph, and looked up from yelling at his back seat to stop and steer. It led to a sobering talk with the kiddo about car safety.
If she was walking on my left, since she stands a little over four feet, the “outcome” could, well, I get chills thinking about it.
“If she was walking on my left, since she stands a little over four feet, the “outcome” could, well, I get chills thinking about it.”
We’re going through some bad times, but there are far worse things and to me the most terrifying would be losing a child. Glad you are BOTH ok.
Ever gone through El Al pre-boarding baggage check?
Add an extra hour and don’t put anything embarrassing on top.
Every single bag is examined and each passenger is interrogated. Don’t think about smiling.
TSA is a joke but nobody would ever fly if we had serious Israeli style security.
“…but nobody would ever fly if we had serious Israeli style security”
Sounds like a formula to slow down the spread of “swine flu”.
Seriously, “flying” is overrated.
In reality, you need minimum security. Create an environment where losses can happen but keep them small, and be willing to accept them.
Terrorists win only when people feel terrorized and lash back. Accept some losses, ignore them, and the terrorists lose.
The U.S. lost 3000 people on 9/11. Since then, we’ve lost another 6000 in Iraq & Afghanistan & killed another 100,000 mostly innocent people. Madness.
Accept some losses, ignore them, and the terrorists lose?!
What, in your opinion, would be acceptable? Two elementary schools full of kids and four subway trains full of commuters a year? More? Less?
Ignore them? You are out of your freakin’ mind.
Anybody on this blog lose a family member on 9/11? How do you feel about this guy’s post?
Jon,
That’s an incredible over-simplification. I realize some of the response has been out of scale but this isn’t a simple ‘numbers game’. Besides, I thought it was 600,000? There’s… a little more involved?
If that’s really the case, where has all the concern been for all the people that die as a result of the violence on our southern border? There it isn’t even a matter of politics or religion, it’s just drugs. Want to talk about innocent victims?
What is madness is ignoring the terrorists. Each strike was killing more and more Americans, they weren’t going away.
This is like discovering a little mole on your skin and since it is small and it isn’t bothering you, you just ignore it thinking it will go away. However, in fact it is skin cancer.
Screw flying and those TSA clowns. They won’t be happy until you have to show up for a flight in flip flops and a towel.
I have no problem with TSA and inspections. I’m glad that you, who do not like security, opt not to be a grumpy passenger in line.
I would not mind going naked through the checkpoints, as long as I can have Hustler centerfolds in line with me.
I have the physique for being naked anyway - very little boty fat.
LOL. No comment.
Postal worker accused of stealing, selling stamps
16 hours ago
DETROIT (AP) — Authorities say a rural postal carrier in suburban Detroit stole and sold stamps worth nearly $20,000 because he was behind on his mortgage. Postal agents confronted John Auito on April 30 outside his home in Macomb. He told agents that he typically sold the stamps at a 15 percent discount. Auito contacted people who had participated in stamp auctions on eBay.
The 42-year-old Auito is charged with stealing stamps that were being shipped to retailers in his delivery area. A message seeking comment was left at his home Monday.
Auito told agents that he began taking stamps in September because he feared foreclosure.
Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
Oh dear!
Leigh
I wonder what his customers were thinking. Selling stamps below face value? You’d almost have to know you were trafficing in stolen goods.
If I tried to e-bay $20 bills for around $17, do you think anyone would guess that they are stolen or counterfeit?
From behind “The O.C.” Curtain:
Filed under: “Welcome to…”The New Century!”
“The O.C.” housing & commercial “real estate-always-goes-up” corn kernel seeds are really starting to…POP!
“Without any major tenant, and a sinking local economy, Maguire is now close to selling the half-million-square-foot tower — which has a $165 million mortgage on it — in a horrible market for commercial real estate . All told, LA-based Maguire lost $54 million in the first quarter vs. $49 million loss a year earlier.”
“It appears that Maguire Properties is losing $73 million on its gleaming, signature, 19-story 3161 Michelson office tower overlooking the I-405 at near John Wayne Airport”
Irvine office tower costs builder $73 million in losses:
May 12th, 2009, OC Register Jon Lansner
Strange happenings -
Advertising
As Storefronts Become Vacant, Ads Arrive
Almost every category of advertising is declining precipitously in this economy, but there is one that is thriving.
Taking advantage of all the abandoned retail spaces in urban areas, marketers are leasing them at cut-rate prices and filling them with their ads.
At first, advertisers saw storefront advertising as a poor man’s billboard — that is, a bad thing. Now, they see it as a poor man’s billboard — that is, brilliantly frugal.
(cont’d)
NYTimes
The article is a hoot!
Leigh
I tried this a number of years ago. Was trying to use recycled slide projectors driven by a computer/dissolve setup to rear project ads. Almost did it! Here in Norfolk VA we’ve been looking for an office to use as a hacker clubhouse. Everyone wants peak mania prices, so now we aren’t looking anymore. Their loss not ours.
VaB,
Keep your eyes open - from the article:
The retail vacancy rate rose to 11.2 percent in the first quarter, the highest it has been since the early 1990s, according to CBRE Econometric Advisors, a unit of the CB Richard Ellis Group. And some real estate owners say an ad helps, literally, cover up the problem.
Your area may be a bit up for now, but eventually?
Best,
Leigh
At some point they will turn around. The goal seems to be to keep the rents high so they can sell the buildings, using high rents to hold up value of buildings. Some were willing to give a number of months free, some offering 6 months with long term contracts (not something we want to do). I’m quick to point out the bubble and everything I’m learned, I think it annoys some people. Teehee.
Lost in Utah –
Picking up from yesterday’s thread about junction. I thought oil/gas was still going strong. What else do you know about what’s going on up there? Lots of family of people from town live up there in oil/gas, I’m wondering how they might be faring.
On another note, I’m reading “the bottom billion,” a book about the poorest of the poor countries. It talks about the devastating effect natural resources can have on a country’s economy. Essentially, abundant natural resources and the extraction industry retards any other economic development that might occur. I certainly don’t see that Junction has anything else to fall back on…
The climate is supposedly ideal for growing fruit, and there are a lot of vineyards and wineries in the area. Plus there’s a state college. Tourism and recreation bring in some dollars, too. It wouldn’t be a bad place to live IMO. Although the red dust storm followed by red-mud rain while we were there did put me off a bit.
Adam, I posted a comment, hope it goes through.
Elanor, that red dust storm was a rare event, in fact, I’ve never seen anything like it, nor have the long-time locals I talked to. We get some winds, but usually not like that.
The wineries and vineyards aren’t numerous enough to really do that much for the overall economy there. My family used to have a small vineyard, 2 acres of grapes (Gewürztraminer), that we’d sell each year to the wineries, so I know some of the people. The grapes froze out just as they were starting to produce, but that was in a higher elevation town.
Those who are familiar with other places in W. Colorado usually will pick another place over Junction, primarily because of the heat and the crime factor, which is low compared to most places, but higher than a lot of W. Colorado. Plus it’s just too darn busy.
“…I certainly don’t see that Junction has anything else to fall back on…”
From “milk & honey” …to… “left-over spam” does take some time for adjustment.
Well there’s always “Flyin’ Miata”, a tuning firm there in GJ.
Hi Adam,
Halliburton has had major layoffs there. I know one roustabout who lost his job and can’t find anything, he’s young, smart, and goodlook…wait, I mean a good worker (I was channelling Garrison Keeler there for a minute). I need to call my cousin, he’s a driller, runs a rig, he’d know more.
Go to HCN DOT org and read the article called “Busted in Rio Blanco” - this is also Junction country, all oil patch. Some excerpts:
“The frozen mud in Elaine and Stephen Urie’s parking lot still holds the imprint of a prosperity that has faded. Just a few months ago, their flatbed semi-trucks tracked in and out of here daily, maintaining roads and hauling rigs and equipment out to natural gas drillers in nearby Piceance Creek. Today, beneath a crisp blue sky, all seven of their semis rest in the mud, facing the highway expectantly.”
“We basically have no work,” says Elaine, 55, looking out of her office window onto the equipment-littered lot. “It hurts.” Since September, they’ve laid off 10 of their 14 employees, scaling back to themselves and their two sons. “We’re facing devastation, and it’s coming fast.”
This wasn’t supposed to happen. Not for a while, anyhow. As recently as last summer, natural gas companies such as Exxon and Williams predicted that they would be busy in the area for at least the next five years, possibly for several decades, drilling tens of thousands of new wells into the tight sands of northwest Colorado.
Then the economy tanked. Suddenly, manufacturers needed less electricity and therefore less gas in their power plants. This largely explains why gas prices hurtled from $13 per thousand cubic feet last summer to about $3 per thousand cubic feet, leading companies working in the area to scale back the number of drilling rigs by more than 65 percent. For Western communities that host gas development, the bust compounds the economic strains created just by the recent boom.
“What we have now is a system of energy development almost guaranteed to leave people in small towns worse off,” says sociologist Bill Freudenburg, a professor at UC Santa Barbara. “It’s resource roulette. Every now and then, it looks like finally we’re beating off those pesky enviros and we’re going to make it big, oh boy, but by the time you pay off your (infrastructure) investments, the boom has gone bust.”
Not sure if you’re still checking this thread, but thanks for the post. I had no idea it was so bad up there. Junction is a desert city and without serious cash infusion from oil/gas, I really wonder what that future of the town will be…
Adam, if my rather long comment doesn’t come through, Google High Country News and read the article called “Busted in Rio Blanco.” Oil patch is oil patch, whether it’s Meeker or Grand Junction.
Adam, I keep trying, go to High Country News and read the article on Rio Blanco. Hope this isn’t a triplicate post…
In “Democracy in America,” Alexis de Tocqueville anticipated people being governed by “an immense, tutelary power” determined to take “sole charge of assuring their enjoyment and of watching over their fate.” It would be a power “absolute, attentive to detail, regular, provident and gentle,” aiming for our happiness but wanting “to be the only agent and the sole arbiter of that happiness.” It would, Tocqueville said, provide people security, anticipate their needs, direct their industries and divide their inheritances. It would envelop society in “a network of petty regulations — complicated, minute and uniform.” But softly: “It does not break wills; it softens them, bends them, and directs them” until people resemble “a herd of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.”
“…until people resemble “a herd of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.”
Yeah, well he forgot to mention about that “French” tea party in Boston, right? or was it an Earl Grey tea party, its been awhile back…
de Tocqueville, French observer of the American experiment, has been remarkably prescient in some ways.
Oh, I like the man, …it’s just that the America people seem so able to overcome things, despite being such Puritan’s.
Besides, look how things turned out since he was walking around America…We still work 50+ hours with x5 days vacation…the French work 32 hours and get 30 days Holiday…and they have better bread as well!
Yeah, ’cause we pay for their defense.
NAR numbers are out. Yowza.
Chicago down 26% yoy
In Saginaw, the median price for a home sold in the 1st Q was 30K.
It’s a bloodbath. Economics wins again.
More green shoots?
Median home prices fell in 88 percent of US metropolitan areas in first quarter of 2009
“I think we’re near a bottom, but we’re not there yet,” said David Resler, chief economist at Nomura Securities. While prices could hit bottom as soon as this summer, he said, they are likely to remain stable and start edging higher slowly.
But the nascent signs of recovery in the housing market could be short-lived if employers continue to lay off workers in bulk.
Home sales fell in all but six states — Nevada, California, Arizona, Florida, Virginia and Minnesota — where buyers have been able to snap up foreclosures at a deep discount. Sales more than doubled in Nevada, rose 81 percent in California and grew 50 percent in Arizona — signaling that the worst may be over for those distressed states.
Still, the median sales price nationwide was $169,900, down 13.8 percent from a year ago. The median price is the midpoint, which means half of the homes sold for more and half for less.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Median-home-prices-fell-apf-15216041.html?sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=
signaling that the worst may be over for those distressed states.
ROTFLMAO
Did they forget to mention its a low end sales spike? Did they mention this is a “one and done” market where people are skipping their starter home and instead are buying where they plan to retire?
I know 85%+ of the population is falling for these NAR press releases. Ugh… But what happens when they run out of people with large down payments? Right now, everyone I know that is buying is doing so with 10% down. The amount of FHA going on is disgusting. What are they doing loaning above $289,000??? Grrr…. (Pet peave of mine) Hmmm… I’m not thinking mortgage insurance will be easier to procure in 2010…
Got Popcorn?
Neil
I think it is far, far too premature to even say we are approaching a bottom for the US housing market as a whole.
However, I don’t think it’s premature to say that we are approaching a bottom in pricing alone (or bouncing along it) for some (very few) marets.
If we are approaching a bottom in 2-5% of markets (or bouncing along a bottom), but still falling quickly in 95-98% of markets, how can that be “approaching a bottom”?
Bottomcaller’s mantra, to be repeated ad nauseum until, eventually, we’re there:
“I think we’re near a bottom, but we’re not there yet,”
We have a couple of years of finding bloody fingernails, left on the walls of this abyss, before the GF & FB find their bottom.
Yesterday evening, PB wrote:
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-05-11 23:41:09
Secrets of the Temple:
“I have been thinking about the green shoots the world’s central bankers keep claiming to see. I am thinking it is quite a bit like religious faith — if we all believe in those green shoots, they will magically appear before our very eyes. And if we ignore those 19.1 million vacant homes that dot the American landscape, perhaps they will magically disappear as well.”
Don’t worry, PB—those homes are magically disappearing! At least, their appliances, copper plumbing, wiring, fixtures, etc are…
I think your primary point about the similarity between central banking and religion is well made. They are definitely hoping to inspire “faith”, e.g. the belief in things unseen.
I wasn’t the first to make this observation:
Secrets of the Temple
“…belief in things unseen…”
I already have this. I believe in
- unseen shadow inventory
- unseen foreclosure inventory held off the market
- unseen future foreclosures
- unseen future tradeoffs between higher T-bond yields and a weaker dollar
etc.
I believe in…
14+ % mortgage interest rates & 12% passbook savings rates!
But, as most of you already know, I’m whacked… pure & simple!
Run Forest, Run!
“..hoping to inspire “faith”, e.g. the belief in things unseen.”
O.K, now lets apply this “theory” to the relationship between stock prices & released corporate finance numbers.
Dumb AP headline of the day: (the MSM is feeding the public’s thrist for instant recovery - this can only end badly)
Job openings scarce even as layoffs slow
Even as layoffs slow, job openings remain scarce as companies reluctant to take on new workers
Christopher S. Rugaber, AP Economics Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) — Companies may be laying off workers at a slower pace, but that doesn’t mean more businesses are hiring.
There were 2.7 million jobs available nationwide in March, according to a government report released Tuesday, down from 3 million in February and 4 million a year ago. It’s also the lowest number in the eight years the Labor Department has tracked job openings.
“Job openings scarce even as layoffs slow”
Has a familiar ring to it — sorta like ‘used home listings drop even as used home purchases slow’…
lol. I do not consider that a dumb headline.
What headline would have been better for edgewaterjohn? “Layoffs slow, but no hope for unemployed?”
They need to sell those papers somehow… (Is certainly not by the content anymore…)
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Opinion (WSJ): Geithner showing signs of intellectual progress The revelation came from Timothy Geithner last Wednesday with PBS’s Charlie Rose, who asked the Treasury Secretary: “Looking back, what are the mistakes and what should you have done more of? Where were your instincts right, but you didn’t go far enough?”..Geithner: “monetary policy around the world was too loose too long. And that created this just huge boom in asset prices, money chasing risk”
The role of Fed policy should also be at the heart of the hearings that Speaker Nancy Pelosi is planning on the causes of the financial meltdown. We won’t begin to understand the credit mania and panic until we acknowledge their monetary roots.
Funny, no regrets about the complete lack of regulatory enforcement from the NY Fed? Who dropped the ball on that one?
Well the NAR data is out, and prices are falling. The U.S. figure is down nearly 25% from the 2006 average, even though data from markets such as Detroit is no longer included.
NY is finally showing some decent drops, but there is a long way to go to catch up with SF.
When you factor in the interest rates, some places are starting to look cheap. If this keeps up another year, we may be looking at historic affordability after its reverse.
“we may be looking at historic affordability after its reverse.”
is this a green shoot?
When you factor in the cost of debt, I think some places are already seeing historically high affordability levels. I think I saw somewhere that CA is at the highest “affordability” measure in the history of the measurement for California.
In the “This is not going to end well” dept: Sheila Bair asked taxpayers to subsidize funds to purchase CMBS at 80-90 cents of par using PPIP, but Apr auction of CMBS brought prices of only 47-51 cents of par. Guess who gets to pay for this? Yeap.
“The facts: in April, the average auction clearing price on the 331 loans the FDIC sold in January and February was 49.3%. In March, the number of loans FDIC sold in various auctions increased almost four-fold to 1,328, for a total of $470 million in book values of sales, with the average price dropping even more: the latest being at 46.4%. So much for a stabilization in the commercial real estate market.
And for those who claim that this price is distorted because it includes several non-performing loans, well - we have a control for that too. Compiling just the data from performing loans gives a great auction clearing price boost to… 51%.
Yes, the same FDIC which is advocating using taxpayer money to endorse and guarantee legacy loan sales as part of the PPIP in the 80/90 cents on the dollar range, continues selling performing commercial loans at about 50% off their book value. Ms. Bair’s hypocrisy continues to amaze. “
I think the idea is that if you get enough participants in the PPIP who have $ at risk, they will compete to appropriately price the debt.
If that’s the case, they shouldn’t be at 80-90 cents, but likewise, they probably shouldn’t be at 50 cents unless the MBS are the most creative in structure.
If they are first deeds of trust on cash flowing assets, it wouldn’t surprise me if they settle in the 65-70 cent range.
Haven’t seen this one posted : CNN is running this headline :
Home prices slide 14%
National median home price falls to $169,000 in first quarter, due to market flooded with lower-priced foreclosures and short sales.
My links never show up for hours, but it’s on cnn’s money page.
Here is the link
http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/12/real_estate/first_quarter_home_prices/index.htm?postversion=2009051210
Yep, saw that and with thousands of foreclosures being held off the market things can only get better for the side liners.
We just had a huge development(for our area) on our biggest lake file for bankruptcy, last week. New Jersey developer came south to get rich off the bumpkins/rednecks. LOL!
About a 6 or so, houses complete out of several hundred planned. Price range from 250,000 to around 500,000.
And yet still people who are otherwise not complete drooling morons are cajoling me that “Now’s the time to buy!”
I just roll my eyes and laugh.
Ghad… smart people are falling for the NAR propoganda!
Its almost like no one realizes that the best case is the “L” recovery at recession levels. There will be no “V.” The inflation will be on imports. We’ll see domestic wage deflation for a few more years.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
One person told me that their stock broker told them that this was the bottom and the time to buy a house. I asked her if her broker had told her to sell all her stocks back at Dow 14,000.
The answer was, of course, no.
Opinion (WSJ): SEC fails to deliver reforms, has meetings instead. “Give the financial crisis credit for at least one good thing: it exposed the Securities and Exchange Commission. From systemic risk to Bernie Madoff, the failure of the SEC is now an accepted truth on Wall Street. The commission not only whiffed on its duty to protect investors, it allowed the speculation-addicted culture of Wall Street to put the nation and its taxpayers at risk…The House Financial Services Committee is more occupied with credit card rates, Internet gambling and executive compensation than with remaking Wall Street’s rules…There is no overhaul of the commission’s enforcement arm. There are no unconventional hires. Group-think and adherence to busywork is still the standard operating procedure, judging by the lack of new voices and new approaches employed by the commission.”
Come on, this shouldn’t be a surprise. The SEC is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY.
How many mortgage fraudsters has the FBI caught? What percent of illegals have been repatriated by ICE? How much improvement in students’ test scores has there been since we’ve had a Department of Education? How many times has Nancy Pelosi had to use a government jet that couldn’t fly her non-stop from D.C. to San Francisco?
You know Bill, you really need to let go of the Nancy Pelosi jet myth.
Here’s one link:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/pelosi/jet.asp
Come on, this shouldn’t be a surprise. The SEC is a GOVERNMENT AGENCY. Talk about missing the point.
Let me explain how these things work…….
-Specifications are set, knowing a specific aircraft that you want to use will meet the requirement (in this case, coast-to-coast non stop), and the others won’t.
-Because of the “specification”, other alternatives are eliminated.
-When questions arise, deny any responsibility for the decision by referring to the original “specification”.
A C-20/G-III will need to make a stop WESTBOUND ONLY in the winter months, due to headwinds….it will always make it back to D.C. nonstop, because of tailwinds. A C-37/G-V will make it either way, no matter what the headwinds.
And besides, why buy the bigger airplane because of a fuel stop? It’s not that much of a hardship, and security SHOULDN”T be a problem, if they fuel at an Air Force Base, or Commercial airport. If not, why have we been spending all this money/time/inconvenience dealing with the TSA??
As a reminder, inquiries addressed to the USAF/89th Airlift Wing should have the answer carefully reviewed. The USAF/89th knows who “butters their bread”………..making your “clients” look like spendthrifts/liars/idiots is not a path to a long, lucrative career.
Why stop at third in line to the presidency? Why not give military transport all 18 after the president?
Why not go back to pre-9/11 travel procedures for the speaker? Don’t even debate one stop, or none. Pelosi should travel the same way every other representative travels.
It’s all ridiculous and a symptom of the bigger spending problem, arguing over whether one party is spending more than the other party for a perk that neither should get in the first place (Hastert being implicitly criticized for using military transport weekly, and Pelosi for flying a gigantic plane, albeit less frequently).
Rant off.
Just ignore the dead shoots in California, from sco DOT ca DOT gov, see May 2009 summary analysis: “Sales taxes were $452 million lower (-50.9%) than last April, and personal income taxes were
down $5.7 billion (-43.6%). Corporate taxes were $142 million below (-8.6%) April of 2008.”
PDF of summary analysis here.
Was this 6 billion already accounted for in our massive deficit? Cause I’m sure it wasn’t ALL accounted for.
Wow, so I’ve doubled what I make per day, in one day of trading. This feels good. I look forward to getting greedy and losing it all!
True story: my last visit to Vegas.
3 days. $100/day for me. $100/day for my wife. I play blackjack, the wife likes slots. At the end of 3 days, I have $0 left. My wife has $650.
I take her $650 and run it to $0 in 1 hour. Jack out another $200 from the ATM & run it to $0 in 20 minutes.
Moral? Once you get greedy & lose everything, make sure you go back & double down. It’s how you learn.
Sounds like you’re well on your way. Congrats.
Must… touch… plate…
Tagged out stealing home!
That’s the spirit!
Been there, done that, Muggy. My run of beginner’s luck had me up 9 %. Sold all and was holding cash. Then I jumped back in and have lost 25 %, mostly on SRS. My advice: cash out while you’re ahead!
Unfortunately, it’s difficult to know what’s a “reasonable” profit to shoot for, and where greed lies. Sometimes being “reasonable” can still result in big losses.
This market is definitely a good test for one’s discipline - both in taking gains and limiting losses.
Why is it we always win on the first try? Beginners luck, or conspiracy to get us hooked? Has anyone seen my tinfoil hat?
My first trip to a casino netting me $2300. All subsequent visits have netted me losses. Getting lucky the first time is a TERRIBLE thing.
Count me in the tinfoil hat camp.
Muggy,
I’m with Elanor - I jumped in and made some quick money on ETF’s - lost some…came out ahead…and then realized that these derivative-based index funds are the exact things that brought us the problems we are now dealing with.
At first, it seemed fun to make money while triple shorting the financials, the DOW…then I realized I was playing their game…a game I hate. My family’s financial future won’t be decided by the stupidity of the market. Heck - I pulled all out of equities into MM funds in October 2007.
I’m still sitting on an underwater FAZ position that is headed my way - when and if that happens, I’m DONE. Back to my conservative ways that have worked for 25 years. Boring but safe and I sleep at night and don’t feel the need to check the market every thirty seconds or so.
In what seemed like the blink of an eye, SRS, SKF and FAZ have all reversed violently and are heading back down again. I’m sick and tired of this @#$%ed up market. Are they painting the tape again? Is this another @#$%ing opex move? WTF?
Muggy, Muggy, Muggy.
You didn’t actually, ya know, put any MONEY on those things, didja???
Good thing she’s YOUR wife.
(I’d already be pushing up daisies. On the night shift. The Big Sleep. Lights out.
Tag on the toe. Sayonara. IYKWIM.)
Anyway, good luck!!!
New reality show for “The O.C.”:
Real desperate real estate CEO’s of Orange County
“Ken Campbell, who became the firm’s third CEO in 14 months in December, didn’t specify which executives he had in mind while referring to “the old guys.”
“Company Chairman and CEO Stephen J. Scarborough was ousted in March 2008 after the homebuilder announced a $787 million loss for the previous year. His replacement, Jeffrey V. Peterson, stepped down from that position in December, although he remained on the board.”
“Chief Financial Officer Andrew Parnes and General Counsel Clay A. Halvorsen also both resigned from the troubled homebuilder in February. Scarborough sued Standard Pacific, saying the company owed him $23 million in severance benefits.”
Big Irvine builder was close to bankruptcy:
May 8th, 2009, OC Register Jeff Collins
Congress Pushes Cap and Trade, But Just 24% Know What It Is!
Monday, May 11, 2009
Rasmussen Reports
The gap between Capitol Hill and Main Street is huge when it comes to the so-called “cap-and-trade” legislation being considered in Congress. So wide, in fact, that few voters even know what the proposed legislation is all about.
Given a choice of three options, just 24% of voters can correctly identify the cap-and-trade proposal as something that deals with environmental issues. A slightly higher number (29%) believe the proposal has something to do with regulating Wall Street while 17% think the term applies to health care reform. A plurality (30%) have no idea.
Democrats are pushing the legislation on Capitol Hill, but Democrats around the country are a bit less likely than Republicans and voters not affiliated with either party to know that the concept has something to do with the environment. This helps explain why some Democratic pollsters have advised the president to back away from the term cap-and-trade to describe what he wants to accomplish.
There is always political danger when major legislation is enacted without engaging the public in the debate. The New York Times reports that Rep. Henry Waxman, the California Democrat who is pushing cap-and-trade legislation, is now facing challenges from within his own party on the issue and that many want to “turn the Energy and Commerce Committee’s attention over to health care.”
That is clearly the direction most American voters would like to go. Sixty-nine percent (69%) say health care issues are more important while just 15% say global warming is a higher priority.
While the public view is clear, opinion among the Political Class is more evenly divided: 45% say health care is more important while 38% name global warming. Seven percent (7%) of Americans belong to the Political Class, and another seven percent (7%) lean in that direction.
Earlier surveys have shown a steady decline in the number who believe that human activity is the primary cause of global warming.
Broadly speaking, cap-and-trade proposals involve having the government set limits on what pollutants can be emitted. Then it auctions off permits for certain emissions and allows companies to trade the permits as needed.
Hey, gang. Slim checking in from Tucson.
As the sun set yesterday evening, my plumbing crew finished installing my new copper water line. Dang, can that Micheal (the crew leader) solder. No runs, no drips, no errors. (That was the slogan in the soldering and brazing class I took at the local community college.)
As for my recalcitrant neighbors, they sent an ambassador over to talk with me and the plumbers about what *we* were going to do to get their electricity back on. This question came as a bit of a surprise to me, and after spending a day dealing with the plumbers and with the neighbors’ BS, I lost it.
Praise Michael the master plumber for saving the day. He took the lady (who’s one of the daughters of the lady who lives next door) on a tour of my excavation. I went along, just to be a witness.
Along the entire excavation, there were exactly zero electric lines. Yes, there were gas lines and other people’s water lines, but nothing active in the electrical realm.
And the plumbing company got a licensed electrician to come out and look at the excavation and the neighbors’ electrical panel. To put it politely, their panel isn’t long for this world. It probably emitted that loud boom I heard on Saturday afternoon while I was waiting for my plumbing crew to show up.
The electrician signed a statement saying that my water line project excavation doesn’t relate to the neighbors’ power outage.
So, as we were walking back to my house, Michael told the lady-ambassador that it’s time to call an electrician and get that panel looked at. I still think that something blew, and it may be a fuse blocker or a breaker. I don’t know. The lady-ambassador’s comment, “Gee, I hope that won’t be expensive.”
I don’t know what the price will be. Probably more than their beer budget, but that’s their problem.
What I do know is that the neighbors to the west have been quiet as mice this morning. I’ll bet that they’re nursing some major-mondo hangovers. The two brothers who verbally abused me and my plumbers had started drinking yesterday morning.
And is the plumber going to bill your neighbors for all the wasted time and the cost of the electrician they had to call in?
If I were the plumbing company owner (who, I’m told, is going to foot the bill), I’d go over to the neighbors’ house with a big pipe wrench. Which I would then apply to the two drinking brothers’ heads.
That oughta help with their hangovers
Slim, I hate your neighbors.
What sort of energy do they use in your parts Slim to stay cool?
Tucson
5-12-09
Sunny
High 98°F
WeatherCentral.com:
Sunny. Highs 95 to 101. Southwest wind 10 to 20 mph.
I use a Master Cool evaporative cooler. You’ll also hear evap coolers referred to as swamp coolers.
Oh, BTW, I just snuck a peek out of one of my front windows. One of the drinkin’ brothers is out on the patio next door.
If he should happen to come over here and try to talk to me again, I’m not answering the door until I place a call to 911. And, after I open the door, with my cell phone in hand, I’ll simply say, “Whatever you have to say to me, you can say to the Tucson Police Department. They’re on the way.”
And, if he asks why I called 911, I’ll simply refer to his and his brother’s verbal abuse of me and my plumbing guys yesterday.
“…Oh, BTW, I just snuck a peek out of one of my front windows. One of the drinkin’ brothers is out on the patio next door.”
Hey Slim,
Wait! How much ice & ice cubes do have / can make?…hot weather = cold beer, are they the ones without electrical juice? Oh, make some cash $$$$$$$$$ babeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee…let’em get good & slopped up…then call the police…drunk in public can be an added charge!
Slim,
Would you please set up a web cam directed at your neighbors? This would be entertaining!
Got Popcorn?
Neil
What I do know is that the neighbors to the west have been quiet as mice this morning.
Hey Slim,
So entertaining, I had to go back to yesterday’s BB to catch up on the whole saga.
Glad to hear everything turned out OK for you.
It’s time to go over, and give them their half of your repair bill. It’s my professional opinion that their blown fuses/breaker panel destroyed your pipes.
(Hwy, gleefully nodding his head up & down)
+ 1
Al Coronado, is that you?
[Explanation for the above: Al Coronado Plumbing is the contractor for my water line replacement project.]
Wondering if this was the neighbor with the Chihuahua?
No, they’re the neighbors with the yappy miniature poodle, Bichon Frise, and, occasionally, a Yorkshire Terrier.
At times, when describing the location of my house to neighbors I’ve just met, I’ve been asked, “Do you have those little dogs?” When I say that they’re not mine, the questioners seem relieved.
Me again.
It’s evening in Tucson, and today was the day that the City of Tucson inspector approved the work on my water line. So, the plumbing guys filled in the trench.
I also wrote a big, phat check to the plumbing company. They did a good job, and I thanked the crew leader for his expert work — and his diplomacy in handling my cranky neighbors.
Speaking of those cranky neighbors, nary a peep out of them today. They didn’t bother my plumbers either.
I think they’ve realized that they’re not going to get anywhere with the plumbing company/next door neighbor shakedown attempt. And I did see what looked like a work truck parked outside the house. Perhaps they’re getting bids on their electrical work.
After I got back from my gym workout and evening bike ride, I heard one of yesterday’s drunken brothers whining at one of the college kids who lives across the street. Seems that they still don’t have power, and it sounded (from my perspective) like the guy was trolling for sympathy from the kiddo. I heard her making all sorts of sympathetic noises.
As for me, well, you know me. I’d be more than happy to tell my neighbors where they can find sympathy in the dictionary. But I think I’ll restrain myself
“Top General Motors executives dump their shares at knockdown prices”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/may/12/generalmotors-automotive-industry
Like rats deserting the sinking ship…
Interesing that a British paper carried the story?
You didn’t expect to read actual news in this country, did you?
From the article……
“The musician Eminem has announced that he will fly 200 out-of-work car workers from Michigan to Los Angeles for the taping of a live performance on Friday.”
Is this even relevant? Gee….every single one of those workers will be ok! A rapper is gonna give them a trip to Los Angeles.
Fannie and Freddie Will Need Almost $100 Billion in 2010
Posted May 12, 2009 12:42pm EDT by John Carney in Investing, Media, Recession, Banking
From The Business Insider, May 12, 2009:
The Office of Management and Budget released a report yesterday on the budgets and proposed overhauls of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that included the possibility of liquidating their assets. But don’t get your hopes up.
The two government run mortgage finance companies have been scandalously costly for tax-payers, costing Americans far more in bailout money than they ever saved in cheaper mortgages. The OMB says that the two companies will need at least $92.2 billion more in fiscal 2010. This is on top of the $78.2 billion in aid they’ve received since they were taken over by the government in September.
The entire point of having Fannie and Freddie operate as government sponsored entities was that they could borrow at lower rates than purely private companies. This savings enabled them to make mortgage loans at lower rates, and allowed them to buy up or guarantee mortgages from private lenders at rates that would otherwise have been uneconomical. Over the years, Fannie and Freddie may have saved Americans as much as $100 billion in mortgage payments. Now the OMB says they’ll need that much just to get through next year.
Unfortunately, shutting down these money pits is just one of the options being considered, and not the most likely one. From Bloomberg:
Alternatives range from “a gradual wind-down of their operations and liquidation of their assets,” to returning the two companies to their previous status as government-sponsored enterprises that seek to maximize shareholder returns while pursuing public-policy goals, according to OMB’s analysis of President Barack Obama’s proposed federal budget.
In a less corrupt political system, we’d have a chance of liquidating Fannie and Freddie. But these two companies are too well-connected to ever get shut down, and our political system too thoroughly corrupted to stand up to them.
“Fannie and Freddie Will Need Almost $100 Billion in 2010″
Maybe they could raise some their own funds by selling off some of their portfolio of foreclosure homes.
“…The two government run mortgage finance companies have been scandalously costly for tax-payers, costing Americans far more in bailout money than they ever saved in cheaper mortgages.”
Sir Greenisspent calmly picks up a 20# trout and slaps Mr. Bear in the face:
“no more “irrational utterances” from you Mr. Bear…America has benefited from 20 years of “financial innovation” now take you collection of weekly “Eeyore Awards” and go back to your rented tower in San Diego, CA” …”Oh, and please exit through the door marked M3″
“Maybe they could raise some their own funds by selling off some of their portfolio of foreclosure homes.”
Amen. It is frustrating to have seen this disaster coming, acted on it and have to watch prices held at still artificially high levels due to a shadow inventory that is possible from all that bail out money.
“In a less corrupt political system, we’d have a chance of liquidating Fannie and Freddie. But these two companies are too well-connected to ever get shut down, and our political system too thoroughly corrupted to stand up to them”.
That’s about it in a nutshell!!
Do you ever wonder how much money they lose each day sitting on tons of inventory while home prices are dropping at the fastest rate in U.S. history? I am guessing they are losing lots and lots of money for the taxpayers who involuntarily bought out their operation last year.
“Do you ever wonder how much money they lose each day sitting on tons of inventory while home prices are dropping at the fastest rate in U.S. history”?
I sincerely doubt they have anywhere near a close accounting of where they stand!
I remember 3-4 years ago some 125 accountants were pouring over their (Fannies) books and to this day I have never heard the out come. Freddie,Fannie,Sallie Mae are one gargantuan cesspool of waste.
some 125 accountants were pouring over their (Fannies) books and to this day I have never heard the out come.
I’m sure the accountants added to their retirement funds.
“I sincerely doubt they have anywhere near a close accounting of where they stand!”
Contemplating the magnitude of their balance sheet decline could drive an accountant to drastic measures.
Update - parents accepted the $375K offer without countering (good move IMO). Now they’re waiting on inspection (which should be fine) and financing approval for the buyers (FHA).
My question is - this couple just sold their house and are now buying a $375K house. Why would they be going FHA?…
Because they had no equity in the last place and it was a short sale?
Because they want to keep that cash on had to ’swoop up’ sweet foreclosure bargains?
Because they already pre-spent it on new cars and massive credit card bills and those ate up all the house profits?
Because their mortgage broker steered them into it because he gets a bigger check out of it?
Do brokers get a bigger check from these? I wasn’t sure if the last one I spoke with steered me toward FHA because they were corrupt or stupid.
That I honestly don’t know. But I do know MBs as a whole DO steer you towards whatever gives them the most money. I remember arguing with an MB about wanting a 30 year fixed. Fixed rates were at about 5.2 at the time, and an adjustable was at 5.05 or maybe 4.97 or something like that.
FHA is expensive for the borrower and lower fees for the lender. But how else is a person without any money going to buy a house? Heaven forbid they save for a downpayment.
The reason I was angry was that, at the time, I had at least 10% to put down. She knew that and still told me the FHA was great.
Still makes me angry. Still saving more down payment…
Speaking of Tucson…
Bills may help consumers caught in credit card crunch
LOL! Old Arlen Sphincter, AKA water boy!
Reid sends Specter to Democrat farm team.
By: Scott Ott
Examiner Columnist | 5/8/09 10:02 AM
News Fairly Unbalance. We Report. You Decipher.
Just days after Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid broke his promise to newly-Democrat Sen. Arlen Specter, stripping the Pennsylvania lawmaker of his rank on five committees, Reid announced today that he would send Specter to one of the party’s minor league franchises.
“He’s got to earn a spot on the team in the big league,” said Reid. “Arlen’s got talent, but it wouldn’t be fair to our starters to bump one of them before he’s proven his ability to play our game.”
A spokesman for Specter said the former Republican “has spent 29 years in the Senate working to get his big break”, and he challenged Reid to “just look at the stats. He’s paid his dues.”
Reid wouldn’t say which Democrat farm team would get Specter, but leading contenders include MoveOn.org, Code Pink, The Huffington Post, MSNBC, The New York Times, or one of many academic institutions.
“Of course, some of our best and brightest came up through the Cuban farm system,” said Reid, “If you learn the Castro playbook, then you’ve got what it takes to run with big boys here in the Senate Democrat caucus. With that kind of training, Arlen would be able to write his own committee assignments.”
Specter said he’s hopeful that his Democrat colleagues will soon see his value to the team, but he understands that it takes time to build trust.
“If I might use a coarse analogy,” Specter said, “If you marry a man who cheated on his wife, then dumped her for you, you’ll always wonder what really keeps him so late at the office.”
Would this news be considered a green shoot?
Home Prices in U.S. Drop Most on Record in Quarter (Update3)
By Kathleen M. Howley
May 12 (Bloomberg) — Home prices in the U.S. dropped the most on record in the first quarter from a year earlier, led by California and Florida, as banks sold foreclosed properties.
The median price fell 14 percent to $169,000, the National Association of Realtors said today. Prices dropped in 134 of 152 metropolitan areas, with the deepest declines in Cape Coral and Ft. Myers, Florida, followed by San Francisco and San Jose.
Distressed sales increased transactions in 17 states from the fourth quarter as speculators and first-time buyers purchased bank-owned properties. Such homes typically sold for 20 percent less than others, the NAR said today. The inventory of previously owned homes on the market dropped to 3.7 million in March from 3.8 million a month earlier, according to NAR data. The number of new homes for sale fell to 311,000, the lowest since January 2002, according to the Commerce Department.
“There are a lot of forces pushing the market in different directions,” said Brian Bethune, economist at IHS Global Insight in Lexington, Massachusetts. “We’ve seen huge improvements in affordability, not only in prices but also in terms of mortgage rates below 5 percent, but what’s pushing down those prices is foreclosures and job losses.”
Large price declines = huge improvements in affordability. It’s all good!
Dumb question of the day:
Why do
knifecatchersinvestors think now is a good time to buy residential real estate, when prices are falling at the most rapid rate in U.S. history?While I agree with your general sentiment, I think you’re unfairly framing the issue. Yes, the average/median/whatever home price is falling at a rapid price. But presumably an investor is looking at a single property. The national average (And even regional average) is less relevant in that situation.
It still might not make sense, but the national average statistic isn’t as relevant as you make it out to be (as I’m sure you know, and are just poking around)
“But presumably an investor is looking at a single property.”
Right. All real estate is local — very, very local — even in the midst of a banking panic brought on by the biggest real estate collapse in the history of the U.S.
Clearly I’m not saying that only local factors matter. I’m saying that it’s quite possible that a single property has already fallen, say, 50%…the average is down 25%. If the average continues down another 25%, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the single property that’s already down 50% would fall another 25%….
Now, that’s not to say that the bigger picture should be ignored.
Because sometimes you have to pay to get in on the ground floor?
The rhetoric surrounding the housing market reveals a whole lot about the aggregate amount of social desperation out there right now. Many retirement dreams have been dashed twice in the past decade - the third time’s the charm.
“the third time’s the charm”
Fool me twice, shame on you.
Fool me thrice, shame on me.
No no, it’s :
“Fool me once, Shame on you.
Fool me twice, Shame on me.
Fool me thrice, Shame on the schools that didn’t teach me any better after my parents abdicated all responsibility for teaching me common sense, basic accounting, or to not trust the ‘too good to be true’ deal.”
Fool me quarce,
Shame on the government that did not prop up housing prices as they kept insinuating they would.
or watch out for Greeks bearing gifts
I thought the saying was, “Beware of geeks bearing grifts.”
I consider it a green shoot. Less money spent on houses leaves more money to spend on other things like cars, computers, suits, plane tickets and so on.
You are missing something important, which is that aside from potential new entrants to the housing market, almost anyone who is remotely close to being able to qualify for a mortgage is already a loanowner, and given the state of the labor market there are not many potential new entrants at the moment.
The other part is that much of what was spent in recent years on cars, computers, suits, plane tickets etc was funded out of home equity gains. The bill is currently presenting itself in the form of a record number of underwater loanowers.
I guess I think of it slightly differently. Every time there is a foreclosure and a resale to a new owner, the occupant of the home decreased what they are paying to someone else, and increased what they can pay each month on other things.
If there are not enough primary home-owners in a particular market at a particular price, the prices will continue to fall until prices are low enough to attract investment capital. That is what has happened in the markets with spiking sales. It has yet to be seen whether there is enough investment appetite for all these homes, but the math is actually beginning to work as rental property.
If there is any kind of supply, without demand from owner occupants or investors, prices will continue to fall.
The problem is the giant sucking sound of falling asset values sucking all the equity out of lenders balance sheets and government providing the populations’ equity in its place in form of rising debt levels.
Trading future inflation for the promise of halting asset deflation today. This is the financial balancing act of the century.
which is that aside from potential new entrants to the housing market, almost anyone who is remotely close to being able to qualify for a mortgage is already a loanowner,
Maybe that’s why home sales to first time buyers broke 50% of total sales.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Who said anything about less money being spent on houses?
“Affordability” only refers to what people *would* pay if they could afford a house. Very few people are buying houses right now, because they’re up to their eyeballs in debt. That debt hasn’t gone down hardly one iota to match actual price declines.
Still-high-debt = still tons of money being paid for houses (existing mortgages) = still not much money available for cars, computers, etc.
Money will be available for those things only after debt is reduced. Debt is independent of prices.
(Note that this principle only applies to households, not to the U.S. government)
(basically restating what PB said, in different terms - he beat me to it)
“…Debt is independent of prices.
(Note that this principle only applies to households, not to the U.S. government)”
“We have the best Gov’t money can buy”…I forgot, does it matter which money we use?…just wondering…
It is good if you are a first time buyer.
Homeowners Turn to Renting, Waiting for Market to Recover
“Even with housing prices coming down, they are still too high for some people.” says Keenan. “They’d rather rent then buy.”
so its cheaper to rent than buy
“Renting isn’t always a perfect solution, however. While Smith says she’s avoided a loss from selling her Massachusetts condo, she’s still losing money as a landlord.
“The rent I get covers about 80 percent of the condo mortgage,” she says. “And I have to pay the mortgage taxes and the condo fee”
I see the owner is helping keep the rent low how nice
“The economy is driving many homeowners, particularly second homeowners to rent out,” says Denise Fraser, a spokesperson for HomeAway, an online vacation rental marketplace. “That’s because they can’t sell it at the price they want or are facing foreclosure. They need income so they rent.”
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Homeowners-Turn-to-Renting-cnbc-15216285.html?sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=
Negative cash flow and oodles of hassle on a depreciating asset. Where can I sign up?
Too many fools still think affordable housing is the anomaly, and the most fantastic housing bubble in recorded history was “normal.”
From Agora 5.
“Probably the single biggest drag on the economy over the next several years will be a massive write-down in perceived wealth,” writes famous fund manager Jeremy Grantham. “In the U.S., the total market value of housing, commercial real estate and stocks was about $50 trillion at the peak and fell below $30 trillion at the low. This loss of $20-23 trillion of perceived wealth in the U.S. alone (although it is not a drop in real wealth, which is comprised of a stock of educated workers and modern plants, etc.) is still enough to deliver a life-changing shock for hundreds of millions of people.
“No longer as rich as we thought — undersaved, underpensioned and realizing it — we will enter a less indulgent world, if a more realistic one, in which life is to be lived more frugally. Collectively, we will save more, spend less and waste less. It may not even be a less pleasant world when we get used to it, but for several years, it will cause a lot of readjustment problems.
“Not the least of these will be downward pressure on profit margins that for 20 years had benefited from rising asset prices sneaking through into margins.”
“…Collectively, we will save more, spend less and waste less.”
*Note, exception to this rule is found in the “names”section, article 2, column 6
1. Paris Hilton
2. Tiger Woods
3. Dennis Rodman
4. Leona Helmsley’s dog “Trouble”
5. Lenny Dykstra
6.
7.
8.
9.
“Not the least of these will be downward pressure on profit margins that for 20 years had benefited from rising asset prices sneaking through into margins.”
Not to be outdone by firms, households will face downward pressure on consumption margins that for 20 years had benefited from rising asset prices sneaking through into household expenditures.
The recession has been over since April. They ring bells at tops and bottoms?
Are false-hope agricultural analogies the new black?
Greenspan Sees ‘Seeds of a Bottoming’ in U.S. Housing (Update1)
By Vivien Lou Chen and Dawn Kopecki
May 12 (Bloomberg) — Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said that the U.S. housing market may be on the verge of recovery and that it’s “very easy to see” financial markets continuing to improve.
“We are finally beginning to see the seeds of a bottoming” in the housing industry, Greenspan said today during a conference of the National Association of Realtors in Washington. The U.S. is “at the edge of a major liquidation” in the stock of unsold properties, which may help to stabilize prices, Greenspan said.
Home-sales figures in recent weeks have shown a slower pace of decline, and the slide in property prices has eased, according to gauges including the S&P/Case-Shiller index.
The former Fed chief, who was among the first prominent economists to warn about the risk of a recession in 2007, said housing prices could fall another 5 percent without putting too much strain on the economy.
“We run into trouble if it’s very significantly more than that,” Greenspan said. While the housing bottom may not be obvious in prices, it is becoming clear in “significant regional differences,” where some of the hardest-hit areas are starting to show signs of improvement, he said.
‘The U.S. is “at the edge of a major liquidation” in the stock of unsold properties, which may help to stabilize prices, Greenspan said.’
More like the front edge of an avalanche of foreclosed properties…
I am helping a client (naval officer) with relocating to San Diego. Anyone have suggestions on where to search for rentals (houses only). Thanks for the help.
Point Loma
Encinitas (can commute on the Coaster)
Carlsbad (same as above)
Solana Beach
Gotta like looking at water…
CA Renter & SD RE Bear, jump in anytime…
Rancho Bernardo
Poway
Scripps Ranch
Gotta like looking at fire …
Prof Bear,
Aside from locations, what resources do you look at aside from Craig’s List?
ziprealty dot com (current list price information)
Radar Logic (for MSA-level recent sale price per square foot estimates)
S&P/Case-Shiller Indexes (for quality-adjusted indexes of recent market value at the MSA level)
DataQuick (for zip code level monthly median sale price and volume reports)
lol
Well gang, I think I am pulling the trigger on a home. Here me out, and yes, I know my timing isn’t great.
We found a home we really like. I’d say it is probably $50k overvalued. Could be a little more. I also know for the next 3 years this puppy isn’t going anywhere but down. But…we have waited years for a place like this to come on the market (unique location, views, etc.), so if we pass this one up we might have to wait a long time to get another one. The area is not subdivision tract houses. These are pretty custom homes built in the 1970’s.
In any case, I started thinking. Right now we rent. Let’s say the economy gets a lot worse, and we end up getting behind on our rent. Let’s just say it won’t be long before we are evicted. But if we buy and get behind, it would take 6 months before they even started foreclosure proceedings. And then we would have no limit of workouts and the like to help us. I know this is total bullshit to even factor this in, but we are basically naked without a home. Nobody is trying to figure out how to help renters that cannot make their rent on time. So it is partially a defensive move.
Interest rates are also low (4.75%) and because of the crappy market we can make a deal on our terms. But I know my timing is lousy. I know I won’t be making any money on this deal for A LONG TIME, if ever. But we can afford the payments, we will have good reserves, and it is in a location we want to retire to. So this is the last home we will buy.
Okay, flame away.
Where is it Brother BR?
It is in Colorado. We passed on AZ for a variety of reasons. We have been to CO 4-5 times in the last few years. I like it.
congrats banana!
Thanks buddy. But we have a long way to go to get a deal done. Will be a tough process.
bananna,
With money, you can solve many problems. With debt, you have many unsolvable problems.
Money is portable. A house is not.
Loss of job with wad of cash……move somewhere cheap.
Loss of job with upsidedown house and no cash….? FU?
Last house you would buy…..how true.
I used to think that too BS, but the world is upside down and it appears that only the reckless have a friend. I don’t think this is reckless, but renters are invisible today. Besides we can afford it. And we still would have some cash left. I also have a very bad feeling about interest rates and that would screw us over for another 3 years.
Tired of waiting and I think the price is fair for the property.
Don’t forget the wealth tax!
If I were worried about paying rent, I wouldn’t be purchasing a house. Hopefully you will never be in that situation, but not sure I agree with the rationale.
It is a tough decision and it could blow up in my face. There are no easy decisions. And a hundred things could derail this transaction.
Going to be a nail biter.
things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm
“We are finally beginning to see the seeds of a bottoming” in housing, former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said at the Realtors’ midyear conference in Washington, though he cited the massive inventory of unsold properties as a big concern.
At the conference, discussion focused of how to turn around the beleaguered market. Real estate agents hope the $8,000 tax credit for first-time buyers included in the economic stimulus package signed by President Barack Obama earlier this year will boost sales.
But in high-priced areas such as New York City, it doesn’t make much of a difference for buyers. “It’s not really a major motivator for people,” said Robert Oppenheimer, a Re/Max broker in nearby Englewood Cliffs, N.J. “It’s almost an afterthought.”
Many in the real estate industry say that Congress should do more to stimulate housing demand.
“They need to go further,” said Robert Sibcy, president of Sibcy Cline Inc., a Cincinnati real estate agency, drawing applause from a crowd of real estate agents. “They need to do it for all buyers.”
Housing and Urban Development Secretary Shaun Donovan said the Federal Housing Administration soon will allow its borrowers to get short-term loans and turn the $8,000 tax credit into a down payment.
The tax credit, “is not only a tremendous opportunity for first-time home buyers, but also an enormous benefit for communities struggling to deal with an oversupply of housing,” Donovan said, according to prepared remarks.
“We are finally beginning to see the seeds of a bottoming”
May 12, 2009
CLICK!
Further below.. have a HS friend who went to this DC meetup.
Will have to push him on info.
WASHINGTON (AP) — Mortgage giant Freddie Mac is looking for $6.1 billion in additional government aid as the cost to taxpayers from the housing market bust keeps growing.
The McLean, Virginia-based company, seized by federal regulators in September, on Tuesday posted a loss of $9.9 billion, or $3.14 per share, for the quarter ending March 31. That compared with a loss of $149 million, or 66 cents a share, in the year-ago period.
The results were driven by $8.8 billion in credit losses due to soaring delinquency rates and falling home prices, and $7.1 billion in writedowns of the value of its mortgage-backed securities. More than $63 billion of Freddie Mac’s loans were either 90 days overdue or in foreclosure at the end of March, nearly triple year-ago levels.
“The McLean, Virginia-based company, seized by federal regulators in September, on Tuesday posted a loss of $9.9 billion, or $3.14 per share, for the quarter ending March 31. That compared with a loss of $149 million, or 66 cents a share, in the year-ago period.”
Considering how much home prices have dropped and how much foreclosure inventory the GSEs reportedly sit on, that $9.9 billion estimate sounds low. Do their calculations take into consideration losses due to holding on to falling-knife inventory?
Muggy!!!
congrats!
(I’m taking forever to read all the posts so decided to post here, if you’re celebrating, that’s ok too)
RE: GM death watch
The comparison of the current share price to its April 27, 1933 level is bogus unless they took inflation into consideration. I am guessing the share price is somewhere in the neighborhood of $0.01 in 1933 dollars?
May 12, 2009, 4:30 p.m. EST
US Stocks Bounce Late; Oil Helps Dow, Hurts Nasdaq
By Rob Curran
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — The financial sector and General Motors weighed down U.S. stocks again as Bank of New York Mellon, U.S. Bancorp and Bank of America raised capital.
The Dow Jones Industrial Average finished in positive territory as hopes for an economic recovery buoyed Exxon Mobil and Chevron and a broker issued a bullish note on Pfizer.
General Motors fell 29 cents, or 20%, to 1.15, its lowest close since April 27, 1933, according to the Center for Research on Securities Prices at the University of Chicago. As the auto giant lurched closer to bankruptcy, six executives dumped shares.
Why would GM execs be dumping shares now that the stock is depressed to 1933 levels, unless they believed the company was going to go BK?
“Intelligent people want to know.”
Exactly.
Remember Mozillo selling his Countrywide stock a few months before BAC took it over? This while he was telling the press that the company was in fine shape.
If you ever want to know how badly a company is doing, check those SEC filings where directors and officers have to declare stock sales of more than 5% of their holdings. I believe they’re available online.
Didn’t Ken Lay get around this by taking out massive loans backed by his stock and then defaulting. I believe he took the loans out from Enron??
They don’t believe it, they know it.
Basically, the shares are going to be worth $0 for a complete BK, or $0.02 if they have to turn all their debt into shares.
The big question is, WHO IS STILL NOT PANIC SELLING THEIR GM SHARES?
The BIGGER question is, WHO MET THE BIDS AT $1?
Sadly, you cannot short GM right now. I don’t remember when they put the cap on, but that sucker would be at zero if shorting were allowed.
This has been out there for a while; what do y’all think?
The G-20’s Secret Debt Solution
by Larry Edelson 11-13-08
If you think this weekend’s G-20 meetings in Washington are only about designing short-term fixes to the financial system and regulatory reforms for banks, hedge funds, brokers, mortgage companies and investment banks … think again.
Behind the scenes, a far more fundamental fix is being discussed — the possible revaluation of gold and the birth of an entirely new monetary system.
I’ve been studying this issue in great depth, all my life. And given the speed at which the financial crisis is unfolding, I would be very surprised if what I’m about to tell you now is not on the G-20 table this weekend.
Furthermore, I believe the end result will make my $2,270 price target for gold look conservative, to say the least. You’ll see why in a minute.
First, the G-20’s motive for a new monetary system: It’s driven by and based upon this very simple proposition …
“If we can’t print money fast enough to fend off another deflationary Great Depression, then let’s change the value of the money.”
I call it …“The G-20’s Secret Debt Solution”
The G-20 may propose devaluing all currencies, including the U.S. dollar and the euro.
The G-20 may propose devaluing all currencies, including the U.S. dollar and the euro.
I could definitely see new monetary system, in fact it probably is in the works already, with the IMF SDR’s as s starting point.
Based on gold? Doubt it. That would be taking a huge step backwards for those that run the financial system and make huge profits on fiat money creation.
IMO gold’s value lies in the possibility of virtually parallel money systems going forward - a white market fiat system and black market gold-based system. Logistically I’m not sure how the latter would work, or even if it could really work, but necessity is the mother of invention.
There’s perhaps a *slight* chance that a new global currency could be gold-based - as a way to get the public to accept it; and then change to fiat later. Still though I doubt it.
This layman’s view.
I imagine a big issue is who has gold right now, and how much? China’s been adding to their reserves. How about the other CBs?
Just ‘hooked’ up with a friend from HS. He posted he was going to the “best RE conference ever, in DC”. I guess he must be some kind of NAR guy in NC.
See if I can get more info out of him…if he is spilling.
OOPS this is in wrong spot. sorry.
Bloomburg - Oil Companies May Wait for Hedges to End to Go Bargain Shopping
And thus I wait with cash, if Exxon and these Hedge Funds are waiting so am I. When I see them start to make large purchases than I’ll start buying.
29 Detroit schools to be closed in the fallMay 12, 2009 9:32 PM ET
All Associated Press news DETROIT (AP) - The Detroit Public Schools will open next fall with 29 fewer schools as part of efforts by the district’s state-appointed emergency financial manager to cut into a budget deficit.
In addition, 40 other schools Robert Bobb said were “miserably failing” the troubled district’s students face restructuring.
Housing post.
‘Just saw an Indian Wells home, circa ‘63, 2,700′ estate sale. family lived in for over 40 yrs. Smoking home. ugh. Unless there is miracle paint, this home needs to be stripped down to studs to get out smell. Priced to sell? $499k. Just cause it is in the Indian Wells town.
I wouldn’t buy for 200k as the entire thing is wonky, but well built, however needs serious upgrading. Livable but …I say, down to studs, rework floor plan, get rid of half of concrete in backyard, re do pool, raise roof, add 400′ to make flow better.
So, with all that…we are talking at least 200k to redo outdated home, minimum. Like I said, livable but seriously outdated. Pink tile everywhere, as well as deep pink carpeting. “master Bath is in hallway, with sunken shower/bath with window to ….wait wait… large large utility room with giant Skylight.
Any flippers reading tonight? just as tempting as SKF and SRS? and whatchamacallits earlier in posts.
Is now the time to invest in Cape Corral RE???
Wall Street Journal
* REAL ESTATE
* MAY 13, 2009
U.S. Median House Price Declines 14%
…
The lowest median price among the metro areas was $30,300 in Saginaw, Mich., and the highest was $570,000 in Honolulu. Most of the areas with the lowest prices are in troubled parts of the industrial Midwest. But a glut of homes in Cape Coral-Fort Myers, Fla., pushed the median down 59% from a year earlier to $87,300 — ranking it just below Gary, Ind., which, at $92,000, was down 26%.
Sales of single-family homes and condominiums declined 6.8% from a year earlier to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 4.6 million units. But sales were up sharply in some areas hardest hit by the housing bust, largely because bargain hunters were out in force. States with big sales increases from the depressed levels of a year before included Nevada (up 117%), California (81%) and Arizona (50%) and Florida (25%).
Rising unemployment and fears of more job losses are deterring many potential buyers. But others are encouraged by the lowest mortgage rates since the 1950s. In addition, the U.S. government is offering tax credits for certain home buyers before Dec. 1.
Must add to unread book list…
Wall Street Journal
* BOOKS
* MAY 13, 2009
Business Bookshelf
The Credit Crisis and Its Creation
An out-of-control free market or one distorted by regulation?
By JAMES FREEMAN
Gillian Tett’s “Fool’s Gold” concerns the financial meltdown of 2008, but it has the feel of a United Nations climate report in which the scientists gather the facts and the politicians write the executive summary. The book’s subtitle blames “Wall Street greed” for the credit disaster. The preface begins by asking: “Were the bankers mad? Were they evil? Or were they simply grotesquely greedy?” At the end, Ms. Tett sums up the history that led to the crisis: “For five long decades, American finance had worshiped at the altar of free-market ideals.”
…
Wall Street Journal
* REVIEW & OUTLOOK
* MAY 13, 2009
Geithner’s Revelation
He concedes that monetary policy was ‘too loose too long.’
…
Mr. Geithner: “But I would say there were three types of broad errors of policy and policy both here and around the world. One was that monetary policy around the world was too loose too long. And that created this just huge boom in asset prices, money chasing risk. People trying to get a higher return. That was just overwhelmingly powerful.”
Mr. Rose: “It was too easy.”
Mr. Geithner: “It was too easy, yes. In some ways less so here in the United States, but it was true globally. Real interest rates were very low for a long period of time.”
Mr. Rose: “Now, that’s an observation. The mistake was that monetary policy was not by the Fed, was not . . .”
Mr. Geithner: “Globally is what matters.”
Mr. Rose: “By central bankers around the world.”
Mr. Geithner: “Remember as the Fed started — the Fed started tightening earlier, but our long rates in the United States started to come down — even were coming down even as the Fed was tightening over that period of time, and partly because monetary policy around the world was too loose, and that kind of overwhelmed the efforts of the Fed to initially tighten. Now, but you know, we all bear a responsibility for that. I’m not trying to put it on the world.”
Mr. Geithner went on to cite a lack of supervision over bank risk-taking and the slow pace of government response to the problem — both of which are now conventional wisdom. But the real news here is Mr. Geithner’s concession that monetary policy was “too loose too long.” The Washington crowd has tried to place all of the blame for the panic on bankers, the better to absolve themselves. But as Mr. Geithner notes, Fed policy flooded the world with dollars that created a boom in asset prices and inspired the credit mania. Bankers made mistakes, but in part they were responding rationally to the subsidy for credit created by central bankers.
We disagree with Mr. Geithner on one point. He’s right that monetary policy needs to be considered in global terms, but he’s still too quick to pass the buck from the Fed to other central banks. The European Central Bank was much tighter than the Fed throughout this period. The Fed was by far the major monetary player because much of the world was on a dollar standard, with its monetary policy linked to the Fed’s. That was true of China, most of Asia and the Middle East.