Bits Bucket For June 7, 2009
Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum. And see the American Visionaries series from Schwarzfilm.
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum. And see the American Visionaries series from Schwarzfilm.
What a nice day to rank on REagents at a few open houses…
maybe they will have some good food
Make sure to check out today’s Doonsbury. Guess who is eating at a soup kitchen?
Got it right here..thanks..LOL!
ROTFLMAO
Sigh… does that mean we’re past the sales bottom?
Great comic, thanks for the heads up.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
I would consider visiting area open houses in a hunt for free food, but there are almost none to be found in our area of San Diego. It almost seems like area sellers (and the UHS who assist them) have thrown in the towel.
By contrast, every, and I mean every, commercial real estate office complex or shopping area that I drive past these days has a sign out front announcing vacant office/retail space. It is almost as though the commercial RE sector is following the residential RE sector with a three-year time lag (i.e., three years ago was when many FOR SALE signs sprung up on the lawns of many San Diego homes and each Sunday one could see OPEN HOUSE announcements at every major intersection).
upscale house foreclosure, was 900k orig when built in 04.
Now 485k and bank apparently said NO to 400k all cash. And a 430k didn’t go through either in the last 4 months on the mkt.
Banks are so smart.
Lots and oodles of open houses yesterday. Almost no one driving around looking. I know cause I was told at several open houses, I had been one of a few who had stopped by.
I have to admit that I have not been actively driving around and looking for open houses. But three years ago, that would not have been necessary, as busy UHS were advertising them far and wide with multiple signs posted at every major intersection.
Stucco,
What is UHS? Everyone knows but me…. grrr.
Used House Salesperson
Thank you. I am still stuck on Realtard/realturd/realtwhore. I suppose UHS is a good means to cloak my contempt for the slimeballs.
Well, Palm Springs is small.
It is kind of hard to go grocery shopping or to a movie or ? and not see an open house sign. If I lived where you are, that area grew so much since I was a kid, that …
The weather is gorgeous for the desert and sitting in the house nursing some injuries is boring after time. So, driving around doing chores is making all those Open House signs just jump out.
“I have to admit that I have not been actively driving around and looking for open houses.”
Good Morning everyone! Hope you all have a nice and peaceful Sunday!
Coffee’s nice and hot, just brought the good lady
a hot cup as she’s reading the news in bed this
morning…life is good and I hope everyone has
a great day. Smiling…..
Hey, guys. I’m going to be gone for a very few days. Need to go see my new baby nephew and check on the rest of the family. Added benefit is stopping in on my friend who lost her job.
Got to go sort out the directions - I think I need to give in and get a GPS. Any recommendations?
Oh, Hwy…your tax question from yesterday evening? The one with Rupert Murdoch, the Belmont Stakes and a Nigerian scam? People are on a cash accounting system, and it is most likely that the IOU from your bet with Mr. Murdoch was unenforceable because of the gambling rules. In any event, since you didn’t ever have cash or a valid claim on cash, you don’t have any income in the first half of the transaction. Nothing to report. Since the IOU was valueless (except to autograph hunters), you don’t have any loss from the scam half and, again, no income since you use cash (not accrual) accounting.
Tah dah!
Make sure your GPS has “text to speech” so you’re not trying to read a tiny screen while driving down the road. I’ve been very satisfied with our Mio brand GPS.
Just for fun, my wife has our GPS “text to speech” set to give directions auf Deutsch (in German).
Do they have GPS with sign language?
Braille?
I like my TomTom GPS for the car. We paid extra for a model that has Europe maps in memory, because we travel there…
I have a little Garmin model for my bike. It works fine but the software interface (for my Mac) is pathetically bad.
Economic View NYT
Why Home Prices May Keep Falling
By ROBERT J. SHILLER
Published: June 6, 2009
Even the federal government has projected price decreases through 2010. As a baseline, the stress tests recently performed on big banks included a total fall in housing prices of 41 percent from 2006 through 2010. Their “more adverse” forecast projected a drop of 48 percent — suggesting that important housing ratios, like price to rent, and price to construction cost — would fall to their lowest levels in 20 years.
Such long, steady housing price declines seem to defy both common sense and the traditional laws of economics, which assume that people act rationally and that markets are efficient. Why would a sensible person watch the value of his home fall for years, only to sell for a big loss? Why not sell early in the cycle? If people acted as the efficient-market theory says they should, prices would come down right away, not gradually over years, and these cycles would be much shorter.
But something is definitely different about real estate. Long declines do happen with some regularity. And despite the uptick last week in pending home sales and recent improvement in consumer confidence, we still appear to be in a continuing price decline.
There are many historical examples. After the bursting of the Japanese housing bubble in 1991, land prices in Japan’s major cities fell every single year for 15 consecutive years.
Why does this happen? One could easily believe that people are a little slower to sell their homes than, say, their stocks. But years slower?
Several factors can explain the snail-like behavior of the real estate market. An important one is that sales of existing homes are mainly by people who are planning to buy other homes. So even if sellers think that home prices are in decline, most have no reason to hurry because they are not really leaving the market.
Furthermore, few homeowners consider exiting the housing market for purely speculative reasons. First, many owners don’t have a speculator’s sense of urgency. And they don’t like shifting from being owners to renters, a process entailing lifestyle changes that can take years to effect.
Among couples sharing a house, for example, any decision to sell and switch to a rental requires the assent of both partners. Even growing children, who may resent being shifted to another school district and placed in a rental apartment, are likely to have some veto power.
We (me and the wife) are now looking at buying land first. I have found several 25 acre lots near where we are looking to retire (at 43 yrs old, dont know how I made it 20 yrs, though I didnt think I would make the military a career 17 years ago). The lots are averaging $70 to $100K, but with that amount of acreage, it would be worth it. Put up say, a Jim Walter home on one acre and call it a day. We plan on living in this house forever and possibly digging a pond on an acre so I can fish early in the mornings and stock it with HUGE fish myself…Ahh, what a dream…anybody else had this dream?
I sure do. Where can you find 25 acres for 100K? Anywhere in NC by chance?
“Where can you find 25 acres for 100K?”
In every state in the union with the exception of Hawaii.
Why is it that everyone thinks raw land is worth anymore thant $1,000/acre? It is a mystery to me.
Close. I put a 250 sq ft home on a 43,000 acre lake. I fish early in the morning, from the back porch, so to speak.
Jim Walter homes just went out of business. You may have to go for a Katrina cottage, or some other stock home. There are thousands upon thousands of house plans to choose from.
A lot of us have similar dreams here. Buy a little land, fix up a house or put up a new house, and either grow veggies or fish or something.
just remember to figure in the costs of a well and running electricity to “raw” land.
My sister and BIL have some acres in Missouri, and the well alone will cost more than they paid for 40 acres (10 years ago).
And electric company will not run in lines until there is a house foundation in place to show they are serious about building.
A place with an old tear down, but water and electric in place would have been cheaper in the long run
Jim Walter out of business??? What’s this world coming to??
Thanks for all of your advice….
I duuno about you but we lived in a rental till i was 8. It was the upstairs apartment in my grandmothers 2 fam house. That is how my parents saved for a down payment and my father designed and built his house ( he was a bricklayer)
Then my aunt (moms sister) got married and they moved in for 5 more years till they bought a house.
———————-
Even growing children, who may resent being shifted to another school district and placed in a rental apartment, are likely to have some veto power.
The author forgets to mention that new buyers are smart enough not to fall for the RE lines “it’s a great time to buy or house values always go up”. Thanks to places like this blog.
Top of the morning to ya al.
Maybe this HB burst is going to be a longer depression than Japan’s. There is a bigger picture and it involves divorce, alimony, and the American male. It’s mostly a losing situation for men. Government, Bible thumpers, feminazis, women trading up (to wealthier husbands), and Madison Avenue all gain to push marriage.
Health and Human Services just aired a commercial on the radio this morning about making marriage work, and it got me to thinking…
Harry Browne was right in “How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World.” Tom Leykis also has good opinions.
The point is men are better off ignoring the establishment and renting. In fact, it’s far cheaper to rent than to build a house to your wife’s expectations. One can live cheaper than two.
One can live cheaper than two.
I disagree. You have an underlying assumption that the wife will always be wanting more than the husband does. While I can certainly point to examples like that among my circle of friends, I know that it’s not always the case.
When it comes down to it, two incomes in a shared living environment is more cost-effective than only one. Of course coupling-up with someone with more expensive tastes than your own will end up being more expensive..but that doesn’t have anything to do with gender roles. It’s true of roommates, straight couples, and gay couples as well.
One can live cheaper than two is not the same as saying one lives cheaper than two.
You basically agree with what I wrote. Watch out: At 30 and all your friends getting married, you are listening to peer pressure.
At age 31 in 1990 I had the idea that I had to buy a house to make it appear that I was stable and not going anywhere soon. There was a crew of twelve of my peers who happily helped me move into the nest. Joyful times. Turned out it was at the height of the last bubble. Recession and BRAC (google it) drove singles out of the town and that included eligible women. Looking back, I’m glad the eligible women left. I would have probably lost the house and half my 401k by now due to divorce. I bailed out, myself.
Watch out: At 30 and all your friends getting married, you are listening to peer pressure.
I am 30, and I believe I mentioned a few days that most of my good friends are married with kids on the way. I know what you’re talking about!
Yes, you are right..one *can* live cheaper than two. But three can also live cheaper than one, and one cheaper than fifty, etc etc….I doubt you were really making a comment about what is possible in life. In the context of everything else you said, it would appear the comment you’re making is that guys are better off going it solo if you look at it strictly financially.
Bible thumpers are against marriage?
You betcha they are against marriage if the people are of the same sex…
Yet it always was the best “cure” for aids was to promote monogamy….and the bible thumpers refused to listen
————
Bible thumpers are against marriage?
2banana, who said Bible thumpers are against marriage? By “pushing” marriage (as in pushing drugs), they promote it.
I know athiests that act more Christian than those you refer to as bible thumpers. Sadly, most bible thumpers aren’t Christian.
Some people actually like being married, Bill.
My wife is incredibly frugal and we certainly live on less together than I lived on alone. She knits, sews, cooks, and is a garage sale addict. I can’t remember the last time we bought something other than groceries from a store. AND she is adamant that we wait at least another year before buying… We live in student housing, 2-bedroom family apt, with two kids and save about $40k a year in excess of retirement savings (max 503b contributions + roth IRA).
Be careful about gross generalizations.
Just came in from the cold here in Pismo. Heard a realtwhore in the coffee shop telling a prospective buyer that,’they had better get their loan ap in because,’interest rates are going up’. This time she wasn’t lying.
It’s hard to know what to make of a guy like Shiller. He was very clear in calling this bubble, yet he writes an article about how long it is taking markets to clear without mentioning all of the gov’t interventions going on as well as his own support of them.
Shiller’s statements are reasonable, and historically (after the 1980s bubble) these adjustments have been slow. But he fails to account for a couple of things:
1) The cash-out refi and nothing down culture of the past decade has changed things. So buying low and selling low, leaving no net change, may no longer be possible, because there is no equity.
2) Rents have been rising relative to income for decades in many locations, meaning renting has been associated with insecurity. Were that to reverse, renting would no longer been seen as an option just for transients and the poor.
3) The adjustment can happen much faster when it is localized. The 1960s and early 1970s housing surplus in the Northeast didn’t lead to gradual price declines in all neighborhoods. It led to massive price declines in some neighborhoods, to zero and abandonment. Large swaths of urban America, then at the same age many post-war suburbs today, collapsed in a few short years.
“…his own support of them.”
It will all make sense through the lens of the rear view mirror if his future career path lands him a spot at the Fed or, alternatively, at high a high level US government post.
That’s about the only thing that makes sense. I get the feeling that many people like Shiller, care more about having access to those in power and eventually becoming one of those people, then following his research to its logical conclusion.
if his future career path lands him a spot at the Fed or, alternatively, at high a high level US government post.
A smart man knows who is going to butter his bread.
“It’s hard to know what to make of a guy like Shiller.”
I’ve read a couple of his books, and I have a hypothesis. He was correct about the bubble, yes, but like most of academia, he leans to the left politically. Because of that, he is not in the least bit disturbed to see free-marketeers vilified, and he’s more than happy to have big government take wild swings at “fixing” economic issues.
I think eventually the Obama administration may very well give him an appointment to give credence to their policies (even as they are failing).
Where do you get that Shiller would be happy at big government fixing the economic issues?
None of the books he has written have mentioned this. The main premise of his books have been behavioral finance. That would suggest that even the government cannot rule the market place.
He mentioned Japan in the article as a cautionary tale that this may take many many years to work itself out. I do not think he meant that the US should embark down that path.
I saw Shiller interviewed around the time the “stimulus” bill was being passed. Asked what he thought of it, he said, “It will help.” He also expressed approval of the involvement of the govt in trying to shore up the Too-Big-To-Fail banks.
Perhaps you should re-read “The Subprime Solution”:
“The FHA, as well as… Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, in their role as subsidizers of housing for those with low incomes, can viewed as rectifying at least some of the income inequality in our society.”
“If this is a time for increased bailouts of those with low incomes, then maybe that is all to the good.”
“We need a new organization modeled after the House Owner’s Loan Corporation that was established in 1933… to make credit more available to home borrowers.”
“It may be better to create a new agency, like Dodd’s now-withdrawn Homeownership Preservation Corporation, rather than merely extend the financing of FHA…”
Had enough? That’s just scanning of 4-6 pages. Tell me how that isn’t leftist/big government thinking.
Most academics are politically “liberal” but academic economists are politically conservative on the whole.
Really. How “conservative” would you rate this economist?
“We need more planned large urban centers, and building more of these would increase supply and thereby bring urban house prices down. The framers of the 1968 Housing and Urban Development Act understood this need…”
“We have to be willing to spend money on securing economic justice. That means determining … who among mortgage borrowers were misled and mistreated, and then focusing the bailout on them.”
“Livelihood insurance would be a significant step toward addressing the consequences of job loss…Occupation income indices could be used to define an insured loss without inducing moral hazard.”
Oh my, you found a liberal economist. I guess they are all liberal. Good lord.
I was quoting Shiller, of course, in keeping with the context of the thread. Never having claimed that ALL economists were politically left.
But Groundhog, if you want your point about the political leanings of economics professors “on the whole” — take it.
I was just looking to rag on Shiller a bit more.
“Even the federal government has projected price decreases through 2010.”
Does this projection take into consideration myriad interventions to try to prevent home prices from falling? If so, the statement is somewhat akin to saying, ‘I predict my car will hit that brick wall 100 miles down the road, even though it won’t happen for two hours, since I have my foot on the gas pedal and the brake pedal at the same time.’
The logic of attempting to massively thwart the operation of the free market, which provides the heartbeat for the free enterprise system, is an ongoing source of bafflement to me. By all appearances, it does not work very well, other than to delay the inevitable.
I’m sorry, the fact that the government is projecting housing prices (period) irritates me… they’ve got enough things to worry about…
Not only that, but predicting where housing prices will go creates a moral hazard for adopting market distorting policies which will drive housing prices in the direction of their predictions. This applies most of all to the Fed.
I’m wondering since the Fed has abandoned its political independence and taken such an active role in the (financial) governance of the country, shouldn’t the Federal Reserve chairman position be turned into an elected office subject to the vote of the people?
shouldn’t the Federal Reserve chairman position be turned into an elected office subject to the vote of the people?
I would argue that the whole board should be, then (all those who vote on policy), not just the chairman.
Then again, the fed’s powers should be taken back by the gov’t, in my opinion.
damn right he or she should…
Matthew, good point. The U.S. government is an overgrown freakish octopus with tens of thousands of tentacles - an ugly monster.
Argh, it’s too bad the cram-downs didn’t get through Congress. Houses prices would fall instantly to the crammed value, FB’s would still stay in their homes, specuvestors fry. Kills several birds with one stone.
I know I know, moral hazard and all, letting FB’s cram down. But the gov would probably spend the same amount on bailing out an FB with some other program. IMO it’s better to stiff the banks than the FBs. And if you make cram-down painful enough (occupied home, declare BK, destroy FICOe tc), people will get a cram-down AND a financial lesson.)
“Houses prices would fall instantly to the crammed value,…”
Really? Here I had assumed that part of the cram down plan was to avoid reporting crammed-down values as ’sale prices’, therefore creating the misleading impression that market values were much higher than they actually are.
Wait, cram-downs are secret? I didn’t know that.
But even so, not everyone will be granted a cram-down, or choose a cram-down. Second-homes, for example, will be foreclosed and sold at fire-sale, which is reported as a comp. So the crammees will stay in their homes and watch house prices fall around them.
Lenders, even small legitimate ones (moi), are glad that the cramdowns didn’t happen. A mortgage contract is still a mortgage contract. The property is pledged in lieu of payment. Hard to see what mortgage lending would mean if cramdowns were the order of the day.
Shiller unfortunately leaves out the fundamental issue of affordability. If people don’t have down payments (most are tapped out) and/or the is a mismatch between seller prices and buyer incomes, there will be a lot of wall flowers left out of the dance.
“If people don’t have down payments (most are tapped out)…”
That is where the ability to use the $8000 tax credit towards making a down payment comes in.
A tax credit is just that, a credit. After the fact.
It still requires REAL money upfront. Money that at least 17%* of population doesn’t have.
(*current real unemployment)
Ah, I now see the post further below that it can be converted to cash at closing.
But that does nothing for employment situation.
That $8000 tax credit can only be used for down payment in excess of the required minimum for FHA, which is 3.5%. So the buyer still has to have 3.5% to put down aside from the $8k. They can use the 8k to buy down the rate or for closing costs. It’s kind of ironic how the announcement came at the same time that rates started to tick up. So marginal buyers can still stay withing qualifying ratios by buying their rates down a bit…..
Affordability or not, there is a bigger game: Can a guy personally afford to lose his dream home when he divorces?
It’s costly enough to get a beautiful home of your dreams.
“Among couples sharing a house, for example, any decision to sell and switch to a rental requires the assent of both partners. Even growing children, who may resent being shifted to another school district and placed in a rental apartment, are likely to have some veto power.”
There is absolutely no need to change school districts in order to rent in San Diego, as there are so many homes for rent that UHS are putting “For Lease” signs up on front lawns where one would have seen “For Sale” signs circa 2006.
Yeah, I think his whole point about this is pretty bogus. During the period when all the tenants were trying to buy, there was plenty to rent, just about anywhere.
Zillow just sent me an e-mail indicating that my house went UP $8,000 in the past 30 days. First time in that direction. Interesting but questionable. I’m in the OC in CA.
Yellen Says Fed Must Brace for ‘Substantial Shocks’…
June 5 (Bloomberg) — Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco President Janet Yellen said that policy makers need to be prepared for “substantial shocks” and that rising Treasury yields may be a “disconcerting” signal of inflation fears.
“Recent experience raises the possibility that the Great Moderation is behind us, so we must be prepared for substantial shocks,” Yellen said today during a panel discussion hosted by the Fed Board of Governors in Washington. “Great Moderation” is a term used to describe the comparative economic stability seen in the U.S. and other major industrial countries, except Japan, since the mid-1980s.
Yellen’s comments on yields go beyond remarks made two days ago by Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke, who said in congressional testimony that the increases may reflect rising optimism about the economy and concerns about large federal deficits. Policy makers next meet June 23-24 in Washington and may consider whether to increase their planned purchases of $1.45 trillion of housing-related debt and $300 billion of long-term Treasuries.
Responding to audience questions, Yellen said that if she “had to write down a number” for the ideal long-term inflation goal, it would be 2 percent. That number is the preference of most Fed policy makers, she said, adding she would like to see more formal evaluation and research on the issue. She said she previously favored a 1.5 percent inflation rate.
“It’s a subject in which I have an open mind,” Yellen said.
Treasuries Tumbled
Treasuries tumbled today, driving two-year yields to an eight-month high, as traders began speculating the U.S. central bank will raise interest rates later this year.
The “Great Moderation” is over…Interesting thought and provokes some thinking about what the future may hold…
Well, I sure wish they would raise interest rates. And that 2% inflation target, as the Ron Paul crowd points out, is a guarantee to steal 1/3 of your cash savings in 20 years.
What if inflation fails and the CPI falls into negative territory? Will this mean a cut in, say, Social Security payments? Why not? If the payments are adjusted upward according to the CPI, why not a downward adjustment as well when the CPI falls?
Decline in incomes is becoming commonplace. Real pay cuts — when wages fail to keep pace with inflation — are commonplace in recessions, but you would have to look back to the 1930s for the last example of widespread cuts in nominal wages in the United States. There’s an oversupply of labor. The unemployment rate — including people working part time because they can’t find permanent positions — has climbed to 16.4 percent. With so many workers waiting in the wings, wages nationwide may start to fall over the next couple of years.
“Will this mean a cut in, say, Social Security payments? Why not?”
Because:
1. Money needs to keep flowing in the economy. Social Security transfer payments help keep the money flowing.
2. It would be political suicide for legislators to vote for a SS cut.
2. It would be political suicide for legislators to vote for a SS cut.
You are right, but guess what “they” did do? Voted for NO increase for S.S. next year. How will that go over? Most recipients don’t even know it is coming their way.
And yet, “they” always seem to be able to vote themselves a raise, somehow.
Congress. For the most part, the biggest wastes of flesh on the planet. With a VERY few exceptions.
That pesky 27th amendment has pretty much taken care of voting raises for themselves.
Congress now relies on the annual “cost of living” adjustments.
The baby boomers are very large in numbers and they will control the political agendas in this country. I doubt if they will elect officials who will harm them. Boomers will panic financially and will play a greater role in shaping the socio economic policies of US.
You still think the voters make policy?
The voters certainly did so in 2007 when they massively protested the Kennedy/McCain/Bush coalition that was trying to grant amnesty to illegal aliens. Government backed down.
“I doubt if they will elect officials who will harm them.”
They did for eight years and most of us are suffering now as a result. Will the rest of the electorate be stupid enough to bail them out? I hope not.
I predict that those nearing retirement (which excludes many boomers) will be grandfathered into their benefits, while more than half the boomers (born after 1950, say) are thrown to the wolves with younger people.
Age 57, retired but not having success in getting employment. Two IRAs total around 30K. No pension. Typical??
Robin,
At least you have the IRA’s….:)
Admit they’re small. Still grateful, but in this environment $30k generates negligible income.
political suicide for legislators to vote for ??
Thats why we need term limits…One term…6 years…
then they can do anything, before that federal appt that awaits them.
“Thats why we need term limits…One term…6 years”…
I vote for term limits over and over again, of course the PTB will NEVER vote for the same. Politicians have only one job… Get re-elected.
Vote for Quimby!
Vote for Oat Willie!
Free pizza!
We have term limits for our CA state legislature and it’s been a disaster. Exhibit A: our Budget, or lack thereof. There’s got to be another answer.
Yep. Everyone thinks they know how to run the government until they get in and find it’s a different world. Just the difference in funds accounting can dupe people. Learning curve on new jobs is minumum 6 mos and in CA, Assembly members run every 2 years. They have to start fundraising as soon as elected. And just when they get the hang of the job, out they go and all the newbies come in knowing nothing except they think they know how to run the state.
Yeah, thats the ticket! Term limits! Just like they have in New York City! The ones that prevent Mayor Bloomberg from running for a 3rd term!
Skroodle:
I voted for Bloomberg and will again……He is about as non political as a mayor should be right now
Who do you want looking over NYC’s money him or Al Sharpton?
Money needs to keep flowing in the economy ??
Its flowing quite handsomely in this guys household…Its a total disconnect…
This from a Sacramento Bee thread;
One of L.A.’s biggest pensioners warns of the costs.
As retired LAPD chief, Bernard Parks earns a $265,090 annual pension. As the City Council’s budget chief, he collects a $178,789 salary and warns pension obligations could bankrupt the city.
“I don’t discuss my salary or my pension and I earn both of them,” Parks said in a brief phone conversation.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-parks-pension21-2009may21,0,7737972.story
That’s an absolutely ridiculous salary and pension for a cop, and precisely the reason why CA should get NO BAILOUT. Make the locals pay for that through higher taxes, and hopefully they’ll learn to revolt. I can’t believe how out of hand things have gotten.
Not only that, he’s double-dipping by having a paid gov’t position making $178k on top of that.
It’s certainly not clear cut, and based on his agreement he *earned* the pension, but at the same point in time, if you ‘retire’ in the private sector, can you go back and work for the same employer and collect a salary in addition to your pension?
Wheres my $150k/yr pension? I want it and now.
drumminj,
I knew several engineers at Lockheed who double-dipped. They retired at normal age (age + years of service > 85) then came back the following week as an independent contractor/consultant. But this is hardly in the same league as government types.
He may think the he has “earned” them and is therefore entitled to them, but someone has to fund them. And those funders are an endangered species these days.
Bantering - he wasn’t exactly a beat cop - he was top of the heep - CEO. As for double dipping - been going on forever public and private for those that can. You wont’ have to worry much in the future - not many stay at jobs long enought to earn pensions and most jobs have stopped offering them.
I’ve a longtime acquaintance who is currently collecting 230K+/year in three separate government pensions–and has a lucrative private law practice in addition.
In 18 months he will be eligible for SS too. All legal. He is so terribly smug.
There are a number of changes I’d like to see come out of this housing disaster, but won’t hold my breath.. One is doing away of the CPI …. it is a joke… CPI has ignorned rampant, run-away inflation in housing through this bubble… Greenspan used CPI to justify his interest rate cuts when real inflation was probably running at 30-35%… he’s an idiot of course, but a well paid and often quoted idiot.. Another is the unemployment numbers kicked around… how can an “unemployment” indicator ignore long-term unemployed people ? More fiscal or economic shenanigans that, in the end, lead to problems and huge imbalances, especially with the CPI, and the monetary policies that are based off of it..
News FLASH Bumble Bee Tuna is NOW 5 OUNCES at the same great price!!!!
down from 5 1/2- 6 - 6 1/8- 6 3/8- 6 1/2 oz.
————————————
One is doing away of the CPI …. it is a joke
I don’t know if the CPI methodology is sufficiently fine tuned to deal with subtle changes like less tuna in a can, but in principle at least it is designed to take quantities consumed into account in measuring aggregate price changes.
In plain English, what I mean to say is that less tuna in a can sold for the same price would be reflected in the calculation as a price increase, at least so far as my understanding of the CPI methodology goes.
By contrast, a 100+ pct increase in the price of houses would apparently not be reflected so much as a price increase, but rather more as an increase in the quantity of housing services consumed. Never mind that every household can only consume housing services at the rate of one house per year.
Bear:
My point is do they only use the Retail price only Its still $1.29 or the Unit price per ounce…that would make a BIG difference in the final outcome.
CPI is a joke. If real inflation were to be reported, even the average stupid voter would throw everyone out of office.
Real inflation has been at or close to double digits for decades. Much like real unemployment.
“How are CPI prices collected and reviewed?
Each month, BLS data collectors called economic assistants visit or call thousands of retail stores, service establishments, rental units, and doctors’ offices, all over the United States, to obtain information on the prices of the thousands of items used to track and measure price changes in the CPI. These economic assistants record the prices of about 80,000 items each month, representing a scientifically selected sample of the prices paid by consumers for goods and services purchased.
During each call or visit, the economic assistant collects price data on a specific good or service that was precisely defined during an earlier visit. If the selected item is available, the economic assistant records its price. If the selected item is no longer available, or if there have been changes in the quality or quantity (for example, eggs sold in packages of ten when they previously were sold by the dozen) of the good or service since the last time prices were collected, the economic assistant selects a new item or records the quality change in the current item.
The recorded information is sent to the national office of BLS, where commodity specialists who have detailed knowledge about the particular goods or services priced review the data. These specialists check the data for accuracy and consistency and make any necessary corrections or adjustments, which can range from an adjustment for a change in the size or quantity of a packaged item to more complex adjustments based upon statistical analysis of the value of an item’s features or quality. Thus, commodity specialists strive to prevent changes in the quality of items from affecting the CPI’s measurement of price change.”
question #5 at http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm
“…this is because core inflation eliminates products that can have temporary price shocks (i.e. energy, food products)”
In other words, things most people need every day and, over the long term, never go back down in price.
By law, Social Security benefits for today’s retirees cannot go down, even as the wages that support the do. They can only go up.
So deflation will simply lead to the elimination of Social Security benefits for younger generations.
After all, most people’s wages have been falling behind inflation ever since Social Security was indexed to inflation in the 1970s. The current deflationary environment merely shifts the generational transfer to falling wages and flat Social Security.
Don’t worry this deflation thing is a very temporary fad. Inflation will be here with a vengeance by the end of the year. Fueled by falling dollar. This inflation will be in energy metals, and imports containing these. Unfortunately we wont see much inflation in wages, real estate, or non-government services.
Medical expenses continue to grow at a rate greater than that of inflation.
My last SS statement indicated an increase of $80 per month, even though I’ve stopped working. Still not enough to live on, though.
BS. My federal disability benefit was just reduced by 7% to $447/month. Try living on that in California!
(Especially after having paid in 2M+ in taxes over the course of my working life.)
Very sorry for that. My 90-year-old mother will receive no increase in her (my father’s earned approximately $1,000 per month benefit)next January.
I am 57 and will not get anything unless I live until 62.
Hope??
How about we back off of SS, and cutting of the payments?
Lots of wealthy get their SS, there should be a cutoff for those with major income streams. Not the ones who are under the poverty level, through their ‘luck in life’.
Hey Desert - Happy perfect weather to you. And while they’re at it, how about removing the cap on contributions to SS. Talk about a regressive tax!
I wouldn’t necessarily mind this, even though it would cut off my (2011) access to SS. So long as my account would remain active, leaving me with the possibility of actually collecting SS at a later time should my income fall to “modest” - whatever that is. So this is a bit complicated — what if someone started collecting SS, but then saw his/her income from other sources rise to where he/she was means-tested out of SS? Are we going to have a whole new waste “industry” of how-to-keep-collecting-your-SS consultants?
Hmm, sorry to be talking off the top of my head.
You have a reasonable concern. Your idea might be fine as long as recipients don’t game the system by adjusting income from other sources so as to be able to collect SS some of the time (super high incomes in a few years, lower incomes the rest of the time). Wouldn’t there need to be some sort of income averaging test and some consideration of other sources of funds (savings or other sources of funds not earning income in a particular year)?
“If people acted as the efficient-market theory says they should, prices would come down right away, not gradually over years, and these cycles would be much shorter.”… yes, the cycles would be shorter were it not for government intervention, which prevents markets from efficiently working out their imbalances… housing has been the most inefficient market on the planet for years and years because of government policy… too much money for governments not to stick their hands into it..
Interesting. Try this: politicians of both parties want SLOW cycles, because fast cycles would wake up the sheeple.
And throwing in my broken-record refrain: the benefit (to banks) of a slooooow down-cycle is that the borrowers who ARE paying will keep on doing so. Amortization keeps up with depreciation to some extent, so people keep paying and paying on houses whose value is declining and declining but not putting them seriously under water.
Most government policy is influenced by business special interests and is created to benefit a select group within the industry it affects.
Fact: government private contractor employees now outnumber regular government employees.
I need your thoughts.
Inventory of homes for sale in quite a few areas of LA are over half of what they were just 2-3 months ago. Listing prices have started to noticably increase. Every time I go to see a foreclosure listing it already has multiple offers and inventory keeps shrinking.
1. The state of california has a 141 day moritorium on forclosures.
2. There is an $8,000 tax credit for new buyers.
3. Many lenders have self emposed moritoriums on their own forclosures.
4. The Fed. is buying treasuries to keep interest rates artificually low.
5. Banks are not putting their forclosures on the market, from what I read it is called the “shadow” inventory.
Because of all of this manipulation we are starting to get a new housing shortage in this middle class area of LA county. Listing prices are noticably starting to rise. Realitors are starting to get cocky again.
The thing is if one jumps in and buys, what happens when or if these subsidies are gone? How long will the Fed be able to suppress interest rates? Will their be an $8,000 tax credit next year? Have the banks been bailed out so completly that they can take for ever to get their shadow inventory on the market?
Folk with all the current manipulation listed above, plus the normal subsidy of FHA, VA, and the antics of Freddie and Fanny I am starting to wonder if there truely ever was a free market in realistate, and if we are starting the whole bubble all over.
Your thoughts please.
Your thoughts please ??
Can you comfortably afford the purchase
Do you feel like you have job security either where you work or in your field
Does the house have the ability to expand and would the neighborhood justify said expansion
Can you see yourself staying in this house long term, lets say, at least 7 years or even more
Just speaking for myself here; When I purchased my current residence, I was 28 years old…In my mind at that time, I said that I would never leave this house…I expanded it roughly 6 years after I bought it to accommodate my family…29 years later, I am still here…The value of my house is really irrelevant to me and has always been because Its not for sale…
Well said Dave.
As retirees, we wanted a small forest and home to live in until we are no longer able to care for ourselves (looooooooong way off).
We were lucky to find a home within our cash price and great amenities.
Of course, we’re not in Cali -
Whole different situation.
Leigh
Buy now or be priced out forever!
Actually, you should be buying only if:
1. You find the absolutely perfect house in the absolutely perfect neighborhood for you and your family.
2. The mortgage (full amortizing PITI) is at least 5% less than renting an equivalent house.
3. You expect to live in the house for at least the next 8 to 10 years.
4. You are VERY confident that you won’t have to sell earlier than that due to a forced job change or other black swan (for your family) event.
“Folk with all the current manipulation listed above, plus the normal subsidy of FHA, VA, and the antics of Freddie and Fanny I am starting to wonder if there truely ever was a free market in realistate, and if we are starting the whole bubble all over.
Your thoughts please.”
We talked about there being a “dead cat bounce” or two before this was all over. That’s all you’re seeing now.
If you found and bought a house you like, can afford, and will be in for a while, I’d be happy for you. But if not, don’t panic and don’t give up hope. The bounce might last another month or so, but the bubble burst ain’t over.
Greg,
I’m feeling you. Hard part is sitting and waiting when there are little recoveries like this. Its going to be at least two or three more years of the banks getting burned.
Sit. Wait. Save. Invest.
Plenty of good rentals out there too. Remember that employment is taking a beating and things are still pretty scary out in the IE. Its going to be wave after wave of crushing flippers and people that jump in too soon. Think what its going to be like sitting on a moderately upside down mortgage for 10-12 years before your at even. That is the consideration if we have even a “mild” 10% additional drop. You are underwater for a decade!!! Can’t sell if you need to for a decade!
I’m looking at the southbay LA recover, but take a look at what is becoming available to buy in nearby OC (better area for the large part) or more easterly parts. Plenty of cheap housing.
James
Only consideration, in my mind, is where interest rates will be when those with good judgment have waited so long. Prices will have dropped further, but with us printing dollars at a fast pace interest rates will inevitably rise.
When those special tax incentives and artificially low interest rates go away (as they must someday), house values will drop, because the same incomes/mortgage payments will be able to afford less. If you buy a house during this period, you will have bought a house at a higher price than the free marketplace would support. You will have overpaid, by definition.
That Realtors can suck in enough foolish buyers to keep inventories low in a certain area, temporarily, doesn’t change that (and affluent urban areas, I will guess, are especially vulnerable to marketing hype). All you can do in remain on the sidelines until the madness has passed.
It comes back to: none of these extraordinary tax breaks, crazy-low interest rates and general bribes for buyers would be needed if houses were ACTUALLY fairly valued.
I’ll echo Bill in Carolina: buy only if it’s clearly cheaper than renting. Because if it isn’t, the prices have further to fall. Esp in Calif, where more layoffs are certainly coming.
That $8,000.00 tax credit can be turned into cash at closing! Yay, it’s a great time to buy!
http://www.latimes.com/classified/realestate/news/la-fi-harney7-2009jun07,0,7341387.story
I predict ‘higher than average’ foreclosures amongst the pool of buyers who use the $8K tax credit for downpayment money.
Isn’t that kind of like predicting that the sun will rise tomorrow in the east?
So many ‘predictions’ about the result of bad policies are like saying the sun will rise in the east, and yet somebody has to point this out in advance, lest the propagandists and apologists for those who implement doomed policies will pretend that ‘nobody could have seen it coming’ that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow.
amazing… another “corner cutting” policy to prop up home prices… how many have gone down in flames during the ongoing crash ? … all of them..
I attended an auction yesterday in south central KY. Brick 2400 sq ft house on 5 acres. Good side of town, good schools, 3 bd, 2 bath, 2 car garage and a smaller (700 sq ft) separate cabin (could be used as a rental). Auctions are pretty common in this neck of the woods to sell property. Divorce sale. Final knock down was 186k + 7% = $199. Interesting thing was last year ( about 14 months ago) they auctioned the same property and it brought $250k + 7% = $268. Sellers refused to sell, because they thought it should have brought $300k. That is is 25% reduction year over year. Nice thing about auctions is they tell you where the market is currently at.
PS - at the height of the market here, maybe about 2005/2006 the vacant five acre lots on either side of this house sold for just over $100 k.
So who is liable for the loss? will hubby now have to pay more in alimony since there was no equity from the sale?
———————————-
Divorce sale
I am so sick of hearing about record foreclosures as if “no money down” was some prescription to great wealth. When will there be a record of people falling behind in their rents, as in record rental failures!
“as if “no money down” was some prescription to great wealth.”
You can thank Robert Allen and Carlton Sheets, two of the RE “gurus”, for that. Great marketing for their seminars, year after year after year. I’d love to see an article on the fate of the various gurus in the RE downturn. Wonder how many were able to abstain from their own kool-aid and dump their properties before things got ugly?
IIUC Angelo Mozilo dumped his Countrywide stock before things got ugly. But isn’t that part of the case against him?
Yes, but unlike Mozilo, Allen and Sheets don’t head up public financial corporations. Just a couple of snake oil salesman in the best American tradition, hawking their seminars while dabbling in RE themselves. Their customers may be pissed at having spent all that money for a seminar that didn’t quite pan out, they may be unhappy they never became RE moguls, but I don’t think Sheets or Allen ran afoul of the Feds and shareholders.
And if they sold off their own RE holdings, no biggie. The only people who would be pissed off are the GFs or FBs who bought the properties.
Those programs should be legislated off the airwaves and limted to back alleys or guys opening the trunks of their cars… modern day carpet baggers who hype the hype…
“I’d love to see an article on the fate of the various gurus in the RE downturn.”
Paging Gary Watts…
Paging David Lereah…
Paging Christopher Cagan…
Paging Casey you-know-who…
“as if “no money down” was some prescription to great wealth”
It was when things were going up. 5% down on a 200k house that you can flip for 310k is a 1000% rate of return. Less down equates to an even greater rate of return. Note you have to adjust for carry costs and other expenses. Hard to beat those returns anywhere else. Also the less you put down the less risk you had especially in the non-recourse states. That’s why in CA prices went up so much. It is wrong to think of the speculators as gamblers when you can walk away for free (not that you said they were, you just here it all the time). The banks were giving away puts at very low prices considering the potential rewards, some of which could be worth several 100k, why not try take one? Thus the programs were not worthless, they just had a limited expiration date. It’s not as if the government was indifferent. They encouraged this behavior by putting the framework in place.
here = hear
Yes we know. I think we all heard that spiel. I first heard it in 2006 from a brand spanking new Realtor. He split town soon after that.
sorry, reacting to the first part only..
No worries. I am a securitization attorney (who mainly does tax now). Those in the business used to attack me for being to conservative. Those on the outside attack me for being in the business. My days are spent fighting with arrogant and selfishly motivated developers, brokers, and bankers, and their NYC counsel. After 10 years, there is nothing that could be said to me that could get under my skin. I didn’t even read it as negative.
Have you been on the Above the Law blog? Meltdown in what is known as BigLaw firms, partners actually wrestling small cases from the underlings to generate billable hours, since business transactions have dried up. I still find it disturbing that 1st years associates were getting 160K off the bat, though one of my cousins in Texas just landed such a job, so it’s supposedly “normal.” A few posters have pondered how these law firms contributed to the hysterical securitization of mortgages.
After 10 years, there is nothing that could be said to me that could get under my skin.
Is that a challenge?!
We laid off 25% of our associates this year. Orrick and Hunton and Williams are big securitization players and they have laid off many as well. Hours on average are down 35%. The rainmakers are keeping the limited work they get in the door to keep their minimum billable hour requirements so they dont have to face a pay cut. Service partners are the first to take a hit because they handle excess deal flow for several groups, and if there is none, they have no work or clients. I am hoping it will pass soon, not to say we need the same number of securitization attorneys. I now am doing tax work and workouts.
Tim:
No different from me….I have had a nice little dj business on the side and for many years i was getting the overbookings from 5-6 dj companies and WHOOPS….now they are keeping all the jobs for themselves
Business has stopped flowing so us little guys who never advertised or even spent serious money on a website (or even a business license) are feeling the full force of this meltdown.
Even after reading and posting on this blog for years, i never expected this serious a cash flow problem
——————————————————
The rainmakers are keeping the limited work they get in the door to keep their minimum billable hour requirements
I hear you. I have been in business for 12 years. I never even tried to get clients because, before 12 months ago, I worked for three successful rainmakers and always had more work than I needed if I was willing to accept it. Now every day is a search for work. Luckily they think I am smart because I warned everyone of what was going to happen, although they laughed at the time. If work doesn’t pick up though, who knows. A 35% reduction in billable hours does not seem crippling, but when you consider the last 35% of revenues is pure profit that goes toward partner salaries. It is huge when they were counting on it coming in the door and it vanishes.
Many law firms are dependant on bank lines of credit to keep operations going. (I worked in a mid-size law office for several years after college). As a plaintiff litigation firm we generated revenue through contingency fees, so on those occassions when we lost major cases, the partners had to scramble to get the banks to float the firm for a couple months. I hear that these credit lines are drying up.
Thanks Tim, its “good?” to hear others are hurting, so I wont take it so personally when i start the day and all i get is 7 more unlimited income job offers in my mailbox.
I know this is pretty much over the mobile dj business for me. I still think zydeco music is going to be big, click on my handle and listen to some very interesting music being made.
Consider yourself lucky, i wish i could find someone who thought i was smart, and can give me some serious work.
“When will there be a record of people falling behind in their rents, as in record rental failures!”
Probably not until the victims mortgage modifications fail and they move to rentals they don`t pay for. My LL is trying to get a loan modification on the place I am renting although I have paid the rent on time for almost 4 years. He said “We got a bad loan, you know one of those neg. am loans” didn`t say we paid way too much for 2 houses we could never afford without continuous price appreciation. No, they gave us a bad loan. Seems to me this too big to fail bail me out I am a victim mentality is like ringing the bell for Pavlov’s dogs. The next time they can`t pay their mortgage, rent, car payment, student loan or CC bill they will be standing there drooling.
Zombie, since the commercial RE bubble splat seems to be imminent, maybe what that really means is, is a record number of tenants not paying their rent … even if the “tenants” in this case are businesses.
Right here in the building that I occupy in the “shoulder” seasons, two “sternmen” (assistants on lobster boats) ran out of money and couldn’t pay rent, as of a couple of months ago. Landlady booted ‘em out but nobody has moved in. Another vacant apt she used for herself for a few months in winter, now has moved her daughter in there. So why for several years has she been asking a price for the (six-unit) building that doesn’t pencil out even with the assumption of 0% vacancies?
…Because, “she’s not GIVING it away.” i guess.
Well put.
Downtown LA condos.
There’s a whole bunch of them listed on the MLS below 200k. Zillow says most were purchased in the 3’s.
Another reason DTLA is not in the same league as SF, SD or NY is because there is no waterfront. No beautiful reflections of tall buildings in the bay at night.
Even forgetting the view, I don’t get a sense DTLA is a place where you would want to take a nightly stroll and take in the sights and sounds. In my opinion, there are very few cities were a downtown condo is more liberating than constraining.
cereal, absolutely (about the water). Even frappin’ Philadelphia has serious rivers.
$200k in Kentucky???? WTF!
X-GSFixer, any words of wisdom about Air France 447? I’m pretty down and out about this.
I wish there were some, ‘words of wisdom’.
This is a weird crash- it looks like a lightning strike took the avionics out but I’m withholding judgement till they hopefully get more info. I will say, we have had an unusually high amount of lightning strike A/C in our plant this year- and some particuarlly nasty ones that were the worst I’ve seen in 10 years, but no total avionic failures, just some isolated systems and severe fuselage/radome burns.
I would like to contribute (I’m an aviation nut), but there is no substantial information yet. Unfortunately, it is going to take decoding the black boxes (something I’ve done before…) to figure out what really went wrong.
Neil
“Jones said his project, which will target graduate students or young university professors, will fill a void in the Gainesville market.”
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20090607/ARTICLES/906071008/1002?Title=Development-deja-vu
So said the developers of other projects that sit at 60-80% vacancy now or worse, several have failed and sit half-completed. The overbuilding here is continuing as the University of Florida continues to shrink. The RE rats are scrambling around trying to find that last morsel of cheese. It will be a good 10 years before the housing demand catches up with supply in this town.
The overbuilding continues in most states. While starts are way down, they’re STILL adding to inventory. It’s insane.
“young professors”
Ummm… when was the last time the University of Florida hired a new assistant professor? When will they next hire a new assistant professor? Hiring freezes and LAYOFFS kinda reduce the pool of young faculty. Do these guys even read the newspapers?
Marcus:
Since I once lived in Gainesville, while my ex was acquiring a legal education, I peruse the housing market from California, to see what’s going on in my old haunts. I can’t speak to the overbuilding, and am glad to have your input. But the foreclosure rate in Alachua County, at least near campus, is small.
Small, compared to what? Compared to California at any rate. So maybe I have a distorted view of things.
We’re covered up with defaults like fleas on a hound.
Sorry for late response. Sure the foreclosure rate here is better than anywhere else in Florida. In fact, the unemployment rate is much better too. That being said, the condo/apartment industry is rotting on the vine. My point is that if things are so visibly distressed in the best market in Florida, what must it be like on the coasts?
Also, I would say that the distress in the G’ville condo market is a direct result of coastal mommies and daddies who can no longer HELOC their home to spring for that college condo for junior.
I haven’t poste in a long time. Bakersfield, Ca has indeed experienced 40-50% price declines in real estate. But as my wife and I look for homes, most homes in the neighborhoods we’re interested, are pending/sold. It is discouraging because so many people are buying. We tried new construction, but they are still delusional. I wish the gov. would stop artificially proping up home prices through tax credits-let the free market correct. We feel that these people buying new construction now will default down the road. Moreover, their will be a wave of foreclosures in the coming months. We have to wait until Aug 22 to qualify for the 8K in first time buyers tax credit. Supposedly, this credit will end in Nov. What are your opinions with the Bakersfield market?
The tax credit expiring in November coupled with rising interest rates are increasing demand, especially in the below $400k range. I can’t say I blame them. If you intend to put very little down and can benefit from the credit, the total monthly payment may not get much lower as we head into hyper inflation. If you intend to put a lot down, I would wait a year or two. If not, do what you feel comfortable with. If you would be much happier in a home and are not worried about job loss or the need to move, looking may not be a bad move. If you intend to put substantial money down, are worried about your job or your marriage, and/or anticipate you may need to move in 4 years or less, I wouldn’t add the stress to your life.
“The tax credit expiring in November coupled with rising interest rates are increasing demand,…”
Is there any reason to think the tax credits will not be extended if housing prices are not clearly inflating again?
Only a return to sanity, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Prof - I should have added that is important to remember that because it only apply to ppl that havent owned a primary residence in the last three years, there is a limited pool of ppl that qualify, and once you bite you are removed from qualification. Thus, the impact over time even with extensions is much different than if it applied to all home purchases. If more ppl take advantage of it now because it has not yet been extended, and interest rates are on the rise, its effects next year if extended will be greatly diminished. I personally don’t understand why it is income restricted if the intent is to improve the economy and am offended by that portion of the legislation.
“I personally don’t understand why it is income restricted…”
Where is the mystery? This seems perfectly in line with DC policy makers’ preferred role of playing G_d by picking winners and losers.
I personally don’t understand why it is income restricted if the intent is to improve the economy.
I have wondered this as well. I suspect it is because the gov believes that these people have enough money to stay in their houses a bit longer. They were all about preventing immediate collapse.
Extending or not extending aren’t the only two options.
If the program will have diminishing effectiveness moving forward, the RE and lending industry will of course lobby hard for expanding the value of the credit, and/or the percentage of people who might qualify.
The only thing I see standing in the way are large, fierce, grass roots counter protests about the continuing bailouts. But every time such protests bubble up, as has been happening lately, the media at large do everything they can to heap scorn upon the protestors. So I’m not very optimistic at this point.
Upper income folks who are now losing their shirts also may get a credit/goose/stimulus to help move higher-end homes at artificially high prices.
Credit the buyer, credit the seller, debit the taxpayer.
Also surely to be extended: the higher limits on FDIC insured savings per account, which I think was to sunset later this year, but you would know more than me about that.
I do not know that particular area, but perform a rent v. own analysis. If it is cheaper to own, although rents may fall, you have limited risk compared to other parts of the Country. Also, as Tim noted rates will probably go back up to 8-9 percent in three years which is where they should be. Assuming you put little down, even if nominal prices fall 30% in those three years your monthly nut will be about the same. There are some areas that I expect to fall over an additional 30%. There are others in which we have already fallen to 2000 pricing. If costs of ownership are close to costs of renting right now on the properties you are interested in, I do not think they will fall another 30% from these levels. If, however, you are a cash buyer you are better off waiting. The interest rate analysis would work the other way. Good luck.
For every 1% increase in rate, the property value falls by 10% for the payments to stay constant.
I generally agree but point out that the same monthly nut with high principal and low rates v. lower principal and higher rates are not economically equal. Lower principal and higher rates is more advantagous because there are less liqudity concerns (i.e., when it comes time to sell you have a lower basis so are made whole at a lower sales price), and with higher rates there is some chance of refinancing later at a lower rate. RJ needs to seriously consider his longterm commitment to a particular area and house if he buys today.
My post was more of a correction of myself based on Rancher’s comment rather than a correction of Rancher. I love Rancher.
Sarah, thanks for making this point once again, that lower PRINCIPAL is the economically preferable choice. Not howmuchamonth as the main consideration.
And I think most HBBer’s would agree that this point militates in favor of RJ’s waiting rather than buying now.
Hey Homebuyers, Beware A False Bottom Before You Make That Bid
http://www.businessinsider.com/hey-homebuyers-beware-a-false-bottom-before-you-make-that-bid-2009-6
Not only is lots more supply coming down the pipeline, but potential future demand is getting soaked up by govt incentives like $18K worth of federal + CA state tax credits to make you want to catch your falling knife today. The likely hangover impact of the current round of housing market demand stimulus coupled with supply impediment is “higher than expected” supply, “lower than expected” demand and “larger than expected” price declines over the next few years.
I further note that the slowing of the rate of housing price declines often cited in recent MSM articles could be a temporary effect of govt interventions such as demand stimulus and supply impediment, rather than signs of an actual market turning point, which is unlikely to occur until the labor market heals.
SD Union Tribune
Dean Calbreath
Sale of fairgrounds? Don’t bet on it
2:00 a.m. June 7, 2009
It was during the Great Depression in 1936 that the federal government issued a half-million-dollar grant to finance construction of San Diego County’s fairgrounds in Del Mar.
…
It’s a sign of how desperate things have become in California that Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is now talking about selling off the fairgrounds – as well as such landmarks as the San Quentin prison, the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, the Cow Palace near San Francisco and the Cal Expo fairgrounds in Sacramento – in order to shore up the state’s faltering finances.
Its the ILLEGALS…..we must send them back home
Sorry but America has no choice today CA spends billions of their own money on them…..
Plus billions more on high falutin state colleges we just don’t need anymore.
Clearly someone needed (and didn’t get) an education at one of those “high falutin” state colleges.
“Arnold Schwarzenegger is now talking about selling off the fairgrounds – as well as such landmarks as the San Quentin prison, the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, the Cow Palace near San Francisco and the Cal Expo fairgrounds in Sacramento ”
Ah yes,one time sale of assets, then what??? Just like making payments on a house you can’t afford by using every asset you have and then having to walk away.
You guys forget that the state can always condemn the land and take it back.
California should sell San Quentin… it’s an eyesore in a very high cost area… those criminals should be in the central valley enjoying the summer rays..
They should use Furnace Creek in Death Valley for executions. Just strip the condemned and stake him to the ground at dawn in August. He won’t last the day.
Short sales stymied by complications, delays
By Emmet Pierce
Union-Tribune Staff Writer
2:00 a.m. June 7, 2009
A home on Cottonwood Avenue in Santee was trashed by vandals while it sat vacant for months, awaiting lender approval for a short sale. (Laura Embry / Union-Tribune) -
With an estimated 20 percent of U.S. mortgage holders owing more on their loans than their homes are worth, short sales often represent the best chance for distressed borrowers to avoid foreclosure.
The problem is that many real estate professionals say it’s growing increasingly difficult to complete transactions in which lenders allow sellers to accept less for the home than the outstanding debt. Many pending short sales fall through as buyers grow tired of waiting for loan servicers to complete a lengthy approval process.
“There is an awful lot of paperwork and moving parts,” said Rick Sharga, vice president of the RealtyTrac real estate research firm. “The loan servicers are overwhelmed. There is a huge, huge bottleneck. It’s not at all uncommon to hear a Realtor talk about making an offer on a short-sale home and not hearing back for three months.”
Acknowledging that more needs to be done, Bank of America last week announced plans to “re-engineer” the way it processes short-sale requests. The move represents a major shift in strategy for one of the world’s largest financial institutions.
…
Aware of the short-sale bottleneck, the Obama administration is attempting to address the problem through a large infusion of cash. While details of how the plan will be implemented remain unclear, the idea is to give both lenders and distressed borrowers financial incentives to make more short sales happen.
“…through a large infusion of cash…”
As long as the banksters can anticipate a large infusion of cash if they hold out, why would they feel any urgency to expedite the short sale process?
More generally, the many hints and winks from policymakers that encourage banks to believe they will receive cargo drops of tax dollars by delaying serves to drag out the housing market correction. Perhaps that is the point?
The Psychology of Short Sales by Tanta, April 2008
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/
scroll down to the second article….
Lesson learned from the resolution of the crisis du juor: It still pays off handsomely to be too-big-to-fail. And it is all too easy to get summarily screwed if you are not.
I am pretty sure that with a slight bit of editorial revision, the following story could describe the bailouts of too-big-to-fail banks on Wall Street whose managers threw hundreds of billions of dollars into the mortgage market black hole, with the exclusion of prudentially-managed smaller banks which don’t qualify.
Automaker bailout is big blow for small businesses
By Carly Fiorina
2:00 a.m. June 7, 2009
No concentration of power. No clout when the ax must fall. This is apparently the way of Washington, but it comes as a sad surprise to car dealers and their employees in cities and towns across Calfironia and America – cities and towns like San Diego, Ventura and Des Moines.
Recently, 187,000 jobs and some 1,900 small businesses in hundreds of communities across the country were eliminated by Chrysler and General Motors, two companies that have been bailed out by taxpayers to the tune of nearly $50 billion since December, and are now being overseen by President Barack Obama’s auto industry task force. With the latest bailout, the American taxpayers now own 60 percent of the “new” GM.
The 187,000 individuals who will lose their jobs far outnumber their unionized fellow Americans who work directly for GM and Chrysler, yet with a quick explanation on the expedience of this move and an overnight delivery of letters carrying the bad news, these jobs are gone.
No bailouts are in the offing for the dealerships, no concessions negotiated, no seat at the table of company ownership – just FedEx and UPS deliveries with the bad news. Though the dealers had no hand in the misguided strategies that bring America’s auto industry to the brink of collapse, they are left holding the envelope. And, it is the lack of concentration of power that makes this much too easy. This is not the way our country is supposed to operate.
Get over it PB. There are new “deciders” in town.
Get over what? I feel very encouraged to see the likes of Carly Fiorina (not to mention KC Fed bank president Thomas Hoenig) weigh in against too-big-to-fail bailouts. I see the momentum swinging against the standing too-big-to-fail bailout policy, even while corporate behemoths are still enjoying the benefits thereof.
Wasn’t Carly the CFO at Lucent when it went down the drain? Wasn’t Carly the CEO of HP when she downsized it? I am certain that she is in no position to complain about GM.
“…This is not the way our country is supposed to operate.”
Well lets see, Delphi has been in bankruptcy for what 4 years?…they owe old Hwy $78,000…meanwhile all that time, their “Big Mama” GM has had Billions $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ sitting in the bank…think that in 4 years they could have found a way to pay old Hwy the money owed for the products he delivered?
There’s that word again: “Professional”
There’s that “other” word: “Ethical”
There’s that “other other” word: “JIT delivery…thanks, we’ll pay ya when we can, maybe…”
Sorry this has happened to your business, Highway.
Czarly Fiorina is one to talk about the woes of the “little guy”. She wasn’t anywhere nearly so concerned when she nearly wrecked HP and laid off tens of thousands of Americans, replacing them with offshore employees. “Americans do not have a god given right to a job” was her motto.
>No bailouts are in the offing for the dealerships, no concessions negotiated, no seat at the table of company ownership – just FedEx and UPS deliveries with the bad news.
Funny, that’s kind of how she handled the first wave of mass layoffs in August 2001. Corporate hand picked the victims in an apparently random fashion (people with excellent track records were chosen as well as under performers). Local management had NO say in who got the axe, but they had the “pleasure” of personally delivering the bad news to the victims.
It did wonders for morale.
Carly is so full it.
As for the dealerships… trying as hard as they can to screw their customers every which they can isn’t good for repeat business.
Cry me a river.
Or the concentration of power?
Ahnold has definitely riveted everyone’s attention by threatening to shut down many of the crown jewels in the California state park system.
Community Essay | San Diego
What would Ellen Browning Scripps say?
By Peter Jensen
2:00 a.m. June 7, 2009
Online: Make your opinions on the Torrey Pines State Reserve known at savestateparks.org/.
It has been 110 years since the park lands known today as Torrey Pines State Natural Reserve have been without supervision and stewardship. Now our governor is proposing budget cuts that will close the reserve and the adjacent state beach, despite their popularity and the enormous amount of revenue generated each year from fees paid by those who enter via automobile.
We will return to a 19th-century era of no rangers, and no maintenance.
Closure, in fact, equals abandonment – the very thing that San Diegans, led most notably by the great philanthropist Ellen Browning Scripps, worked so hard to remedy long ago. Until the city of San Diego, and soon thereafter Miss Scripps, stepped in, a destructive faction of picnickers and campers threatened the natural treasure, hacking at many of the trees and building fires with the sappy wood of one of the world’s rarest pines.
scare mongering. Either the park is a money maker or it is not. You can have your beach when you can afford it.
Let the police arrest trespassers.
I would think an appropriate combination of fines on trespassers with higher fees to attract a better (and smaller) class of visitors would suffice to turn crown jewel attractions into money makers. There is no need to sell at fire sale prices.
Who will pay for the police? The idea is to cut expenses, not shift them elsewhere.
The idea is to (1) charge higher fines (or stiffer penalties) for trespassing; (2) charge higher use fees. I see no reason fees and penalties could not be adjusted to make state parks self funding.
We need to focus on the meat of the problem. State park closures by some estimates will end up costing the State in lost revenue. Not to mention all the money which will have to be paid in severance packages and unemployment and lost income tax to the State which is not being calculated.
Want to cut costs - Schools and Prisons are where the money is.
Yep. Keeping up State Parks is chump change.
This is part of a scorched-earth tactic by the State legislators and bureaucrats, aided and abetted by the media, aimed at getting the poor helpless citizens to shut up and get out their checkbooks.
The regular folk are showing signs of restlessness and we just can’t have that.
I’d think it would be great to close the park for a couple years to save money and limit human interaction. An interesting experiment to say the least. Some minimal amount of rangers to keep people off.
Of course, if its a revenue generator then why close it?
We could also increase the fees.
Looked at the LA times interactive article on balancing the california budget. I wanted at least 1$ per gallon but they will only allow 0.32$. Kind of rigged game aimed at pushing people in a certain dirrection. I’d have the budget balanced pretty quick.
I’m not for a lot of the taxes they propose on highest wage earners, businesses or one time fixes. Mostly cuts in some of the services but trying to edge away from the weakest elements of society, old elderly, developmentally disabled. Also trying to avoid education cuts as I consider it an investment.
Hopefully, the state doesn’t tax business too much and we can attract more jobs as costs collapse. Build the revenue base. Also hopefully that we become more of an exporter again, and california will benefit from that.
I have some wonderful unfocused social engineering experiments I’d like to try.
Simple Solution: 1) Deport ALL the illegal aliens (savings 15 billion). 2) Cut pay and benefits 30% on all state wokers including all PERS. (savings 10 Billion) 3) No retrirement until age 65. 4) Legislature back to half time! (Priceless).
Agree, but we have no wokers, so we’ll have to use workers -
It does not take a rocket scientist to see Arnie will cut where it causes the most civil discomfort and creates the least benefit.
Consider this.
1. State parks bring in millions a year in direct fees and even more in indirect taxes, such as sales tax and hotel taxes.
2. After laying off all the park rangers millions will have to be paid in unemployment etc. Many cannot be laid off and will be kept on the books doing nothing.
3. Even at the best California estimate, only some $200K net will be saved closing these parks, leaving some 20 - 30 billion in deficit.
Luckily, to date not a single administrative position has had to be cut.
It is time to consider a much smaller California government, and given some 60% of the state budget goes to schools, perhaps the fact we can no longer afford the school system we have.
Keep in mind many small schools here in San Diego for example have a principal and several VPs’ now. Just 10 years ago, most had a single principal and a single VP.
Same thing with higher ed… an explosion in both the numbers and pay rates for administrators. Yet those positions are NEVER cut when there are budget woes.
There’s two parallel issues with our CA budget debacle. On one hand, you hear about all these boards and committees in Sacramento which clearly overlap, and board members can earn six figures for their occasional duties. The state legislators, in response to our Gobernator’s threats to shut down all our services, have been finally attacking these sacred cows, which appear to be plum positions that governors bestow on their cronies. On the other hand, we CA residents assume that services just magically appear, that no one has to pay for the million dollar fires that rage each year, or the special education services that parents demand, or incarcerating every two-bit transgressor, or the extraordinary lengths necessary to protect people from themselves since we will all sue the state if we see a large ditch and there isn’t a sign or barricade to tell us not to fall into it. It’s all well and good to complain the problem is big government, but we’ve brought it on ourselves.
C’mon… wouldn’t you rather close the parks to ensure those CA state employees can enjoy their $180K incomes and $250K pensions ? … seems like a no brainer to me..
That’s a good point. Here’s an interesting article from May 2008:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2008/05/25/MNI610S459.DTL
ARNOLD’S HEAD IS FIRMLY IN PLACE I HIS RECTUM!
“I” = “IN”
Combo, double check all your passwords and accounts. Some crazy guy hijacked your handle last night, talking about trading and things like that.
I think he was smoking green shoots or something.
This house is over 600 days on the market and a very good example of chansing the market down. If only they have cut deeply 600 days ago they have been sold and be done with it, and with a nice profit. But greed not always paid off..
http://www.redfin.com/CA/Temecula/27439-Rosebay-Ct-92591/home/6172988
Mortgage relief scams mushroom as crisis winds on
By EILEEN AJ CONNELLY
The Associated Press
Sunday, June 07, 2009
NEW YORK — The letter may look like a government form. The logo may seem official. The Web site address may sound like an agency that can help.
But there’s a good chance it may all be a scam.
5 tips for spotting mortgage relief scams
Companies promising help with mortgage modification and foreclosure relief are proliferating throughout the country as the housing crisis continues. But many of these firms are really fraudulent operations aimed at scamming people who are already in distress.
Here’s some tips on how to spot a potential scam, from the National Endowment for Financial Education:
1. Be suspicious of unsolicited mail.
Watch out for letters that look like government forms or bear logos that resemble government seals. Search for misspelled words, language that includes dire warnings and references to government programs you can’t access without their help.
2. Carefully inspect Web sites before submitting information.
Some companies have been accused by law enforcement of setting up sites that mimic official government sites, which end with “.gov.” Some scams try to confuse consumers by using addresses that include a dash or slash in front of “gov” or end in .us, or by using names that sound like legitimate programs.
Also check out the sections labeled “Who we are” or “About us” that describe the company, and read its privacy policy. If these don’t exist, it’s not likely a trustworthy company.
3. Search for other red flags.
Sites that contain only a page where you fill out personal information and submit it for a referral should be considered suspect. Also be skeptical about the use of magazine, newspaper and TV logos, which could just mean the company paid for advertising with those outlets. And question promises to do things like put a “team of attorneys” on your case.
4. Walk away.
From any attempt to collect fees, and promises for a “free consultation” or a “money back guarantee,” which advocates say is a tip-off there’s going to be a fee. Nonprofit organizations work with government agencies to provide free help for distressed homeowners.
5. Check for complaints.
Against the company with your state consumer affairs or attorney general’s office, and with the Better Business Bureau.
The ongoing mortgage foreclosure crisis has sparked a cottage industry of so-called “foreclosure rescue” companies. But advocates and government officials warn that a significant number are little more than fraudulent operations designed to separate distressed homeowners from their money, and sometimes their houses as well.
“They prey upon the financially unsophisticated,” said Gail Cunningham of the National Foundation for Credit Counseling. “Anyone can easily fall victim to such scams. When you’re hurting, we may all become financially unsophisticated.”
Many of these companies have popped up as the mortgage meltdown accelerated, said Gary Almond of the Better Business Bureau in Los Angeles, one of the areas hardest hit by the housing crisis. “As the degradation in the market progressed, more (companies) got on the bandwagon,” he said.
Because of the role the mortgage industry plays in the nation’s economy and the types of crimes mortgage fraud represents, these companies have even drawn scrutiny from the FBI. The feds currently have nearly 2,350 mortgage fraud cases, up almost 400 percent from five years ago.
“With people losing homes, you’re at your most vulnerable,” said Roscoe Howard, a Treasury Department spokesman. “It’s a lot like being a poor swimmer and being thrown into a lake, you’re going to reach for whatever you can.”
“…there’s a good chance it may all be a scam.”
That is a good rule-of-thumb to apply to any real estate opportunity in the aftermath of a collapsed bubble.
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger says he’s “happy” illegal immigrants get state services and says they’re not to blame for California’s $24.3 billion budget gap.
Schwarzenegger, an immigrant himself, says the estimated $4 billion to $5 billion the state spends on illegal immigrants annually is a “small percentage” of the deficit.
The Republican governor told The Sacramento Bee’s editorial board on Friday that it’s easy to “scapegoat” illegal immigrants. But he says the state’s budget has a much deeper spending imbalance.
People thought it was neat to have the Terminator as governor. How does it feel now? Gray Davis was 10 times better than Arnold. What a stupid state.
$5bn in services on a $20bn deficit = 25 percent. Whether 25 percent is “small” or not is an open question, I guess…
Sorry — I guess if the deficit is $24bn+, the percentage is closer to 20 percent, which does seem pretty small, compared to, say, $700bn in TARP funding for Wall Street bankers to play with.
$5 billion here, $5 billion there, pretty soon you are talking about real money.
“$5bn in services on a $20bn deficit = 25 percent. Whether 25 percent is “small” or not is an open question, I guess…”
By some estimates the annual number is $13B, not $5B. Neither is small nor insignificant. Even if he considers it insignificant, he still hasn’t made a compelling argument why we should be spending money on that.
Isn’t the deficit number based on what they wanted to spend, not versus what was spent last year?
They’re just the current scapegoat like the welfare mothers were in the 90s. Keeps the people divided and fighting each other. The entire financial collapse, the housing bubble, the decades building CA budget debacle had little to do with immigration. It was mostly caused by our so-called, best & brightest, best educated, considered most successful and coincidentally, mostly white males. Then you can add 2 wars wreaking havoc with the federal budget, the fed actions and other scams and shenanigans, and again - no illegals involved. IMHO the sooner people accept they are NOT going away and we are not going to round up and deport 30 million people, the sooner we can get on to constructive discussions of what now. It is not in our best interests to have millions of people living among us that are illeducated and unhealty. We need to move on to figuring out what we’re going to do with the folks that are here.
I agree completely.
Take away the illegal immigrants and you also take away a sizable fraction of the state economy… and the associated taxes. Keep in mind that these people do pay property taxes indirectly via rent and sale taxes. So the question isn’t how much is spend on services for illegal immigrants as how much is spent relative to their tax and overall economic contributions.
Which part of “illegal” do you not understand?
I live in Texas. I can tell you from 30 years of observation, illegal immigrants benefit ONE and only one group: employers.
At the expense of everyone else. And I do mean everyone.
Illegal immigration is a HUGE expense. Here’s a little incident that just happened here in Tampa:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/accidents/article1007635.ece
So the cow of a mother breastfeeds her child while the car is in motion. The unlicensed father doesn’t think he should stop at a red light (we don’t need no steenkin’ red lights) and gets T-boned. The baby goes flying out of the car window. How much do you think this little incident costs the taxpayer? First, consider the costs of the accident alone in law enforcement and medical services, the transportation tie-up, the medical costs for the injuries to the child, both emergency and future care, the incarceration and deporation costs of the father. I’m guessing at least a cool million right there. And that’s just one family. Because they’re too arrogant and stupid to assimilate any sort of law or even simple safety measures. Whoever sold them the car ought to be penalized, just like they penalize bartenders for serving drunks who then go out and drive.
10 people killed in SUV rollover near Tucson
1 hour ago
SONOITA, Ariz. (AP) — Ten illegal immigrants “stacked like wood” in the back of a sports utility vehicle crammed with at least 27 people were killed when the driver lost control and rolled over on a remote southern Arizona highway, authorities said Sunday.
The Ford Excursion had no rear seat and most of the men and women were ejected when the SUV crashed just before midnight Saturday near Sonoita, about 40 miles southeast of Tucson. Authorities said all the victims are believed to be illegal immigrants from El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Equador and perhaps Mexico.
Arizona Department of Public Safety spokeswoman Joy Craig told The Associated Press that the remote area where the crash happened is a route commonly used by those smuggling illegal immigrants into the U.S.
“We see the people stacked like wood frequently,” she said. “If they had had the right number of people in there and they all had their seat belts on, they would have lived.”
A dozen people injured in the crash were treated at area hospitals and authorities were looking for possibly more.
The identity of the driver, passengers and the vehicle’s owner are being withheld pending their identification and notification of relatives. Many victims did not have ID, Craig said.
If the driver survives, Craig said he would likely be charged.
“Basically, this is like a 10-time homicide scene,” she said.
Initially, Craig said there were 22 victims, but several left the crash scene and sought help from businesses in the Sonoita area.
U.S. Border Patrol has eight men who were treated at local hospitals in custody, Border Patrol spokesman Omar Candelaria said.
Exactly. “Illegal” immigration has been an absolute disaster for this country. It’s time to start fining and shutting down the employers and citizens who are responsible.
Thanks for posting this, Prof. Bear
I just sent our esteemed Governator and my reps a piece of my mind.
I see it all as a high profile acting job, with the primary objective of calling DC’s attention to the fact that it is CA’s turn for a bailout, now that Wall Street and Detroit got theirs.
“acting job”? Is he acting? Oh is that it, ahhhhhhhh.
A great man, you say? All I see is the actor creating his own ideal image.
–Friederich Nietzsche–
“I just sent our esteemed Governator and my reps a piece of my mind.”
Good luck getting a response if your reps are like mine.
1. While in Bishop past week talked to a local who told me that there was an $800K house in the neighborhood that went into foreclosure and that the neighbors wanted to band together and buy it so they could keep the property values up.
2. Two people on the trail ride had lost their jobs but went because the trip was already paid for. Both had recent reacquired a job on a part-time basis with a lower salary.
3. Most people in Bishop believe that prices will not go down.
4. Talked to someone down by SLO who told me of two people buying in Napomo and then renting out their houses until prices go back to the peak 2007 levels.
5. Went to Botti concert last night. One gentleman told me that SLO was looking bad as they have no water stored. Another said that central valley is also glum as no water.
$800k in Bishop? You’ve got to be kidding me?
Salinasron,
This is Bishop, CA correct??
If it is, with a 800K houses then all I have to say is….WTF!
I love the Owen’s Vallety and the town of Bishop and miss the heck out Schat’s Bakery (oh, the cheese bread!), but this shows how far out of wack and how far reaching this HB was.
SLO in general and Nipomo in particular are awash in FCs. Back up to 2007 peak? No earlier than 2017.
This is one of the more depressing Bits threads I’ve seen in a while…
I agree…………
its great
Thanks
Ok, very off-topic I know but this really struck my cynical funny bone.*
Onion video - “New BabySafe Ball Makes Shaking Your Infant Guilt and Injury Free”
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/new_babysafe_ball_makes_shaking?utm_source=EMTF_Onion
Make sure you read the on-screen comments as the video plays. And the “segment” supposedly following this one is housing related.
(*Please note that poster does not endorse child abuse of any form. Please do not shake your baby, put cigarettes out on them, or stuff them into a fireplace no matter how insane they drive you!)
Combo, yesterday there was an imposter, using your handle, making outrageous claims like, “I am trading.” Please make sure you are not a victim of identity theft!
I think he started using a trading account to buy cash on leverage.
From today’s Chicago Tribune (link to follow)
There are open houses, and then there are “lifestyle events.”
The Chicago area is literally awash in million-dollar homes. In late May, a search of multiple-listing-service data within the northwest suburban area where the agents’ listing is located turned up more than 100 homes on the market priced at $1 million and up. Fanning farther out into the suburbs where the agents might hope to recruit a moneyed buyer, the MLS showed nearly 200 of them for sale in the Barrington area. And on the North Shore, gulp, there were nearly 1,200.
So the two Coldwell Banker agents, Maria DelBocchio and Michelle DePinto realized they faced a marketing challenge when they recently took over the listing for a $1.75 million home in Arlington Heights. The 4,200-square-foot, brand-new home at 924 S. Beverly Lane already had sat on the market for 15 months, with just three showings to potential buyers.
They thought of a social event to generate some buzz. In this bracket, agents long have been known to arrange cocktail parties for potential buyers or to host luncheons for other agents who might bring them a buyer, but those two tactics seemed so been-there, done-that.
So, they started thinking about just whom they knew — who would know the “right people” for a big-ticket property — and decided to put together a one-day open house that will be a little out of the ordinary.
They recruited an antiques dealer who will truck in vintage furnishings to fill the place up.
Then, one thing led to another: A local wine merchant is going to conduct wine tastings. A caterer will offer hors d’oeuvres. Local musicians will perform. A luxury car dealer is going to park a Bentley, a Lamborghini and a one-of-a-kind BMW in the garage. They even recruited Mayor Arlene Mulder to extol the virtues of Arlington Heights.
The businesses, in turn, worked with the agents to produce a list of 2,000 invitees whom they perceive to have the wherewithal to buy a $1.75 million home.
So, from noon to 4 p.m. June 28, the by-invitation-only crowd will sip wine and gaze upon the granite countertops, etc. and presumably drum up the requisite emotion that might help them to picture themselves owning the place.
But then — in what certainly amounts to a departure from most other high-end marketing events — the agents will open the doors to the community at large from 4 to 6 p.m. One thing is for sure: This part of the event — a come-one, come-all invitation — definitely will get the house noticed.
“We think it will bring in a buyer,” DePinto said. “It may not be somebody at the party, but someone who knows someone.”
I would soo buy a house because it had a “one of a kind” BMW parked in the garage!
You know, the house right net to me has gone FSBO. He’s out there every day, sanding, painting, pruning.
I just want to shout, “try price lowering!”
I think I will spill my wine on the carpets…
what if someone sits on a dainty antique piece and then kapow/crack.
One of the things I notice after a story told me, was that if they have/drive a showy car- do they OWN it outright? Or is it a lease?
Somehow I am always attracted to those who have vintage autos in their driveways.
Saw a 69 Ford Ranger truck yesterday..nice one.
“The Chicago area is literally awash in million-dollar homes. In late May, a search of multiple-listing-service data within the northwest suburban area where the agents’ listing is located turned up more than 100 homes on the market priced at $1 million and up.”
Aside from climatological differences, it appears that Chicago and San Diego have a lot in common. Here are the results of some quick counts on ZipRealty and ForeclosureTown web sites of how many $1m+ listed homes are on the market:
ZipRealty = 2,353 homes homes listed at $1m or more
ForeclosureTown* = hundreds more homes listed at $1m or more
*I don’t have enough patience to do a super-careful count, but 10,212 homes come up in a ForeclosureTown search of within 35 miles of La Jolla (92037), and many of the homes in several of the zip codes (92037, 92067, 92075, 92130, etc) are listed in the $1m+ price range. Here are the $1m+ counts for a few of these zip codes:
Area / Zip Code / Count
Encinitas+Cardiff 92007 38
Del Mar 92014 112
La Jolla 92037 245
Rancho Santa Fe 92067 190
Solano Beach 92075 68
Carmel Valley 92130 84
—————
Total $1m+ ForeclosureTown listings for these zip codes = 38+112+245+190+68+84 = 737
Perhaps everyone really does want to live here, as apparently there are way more $1m+ homes on the market in San Diego than in Chicago.
Perhaps everyone really does want to live here, as apparently there are way more $1m+ homes on the market in San Diego than in Chicago.
Those 1MM listing numbers are just for the ‘burbs (not city proper), and include only a small region of all of Chicago’s burbs too. But yeah… I’d choose SD over Chicago on climate alone.
This story got me turned off when it mentioned a furniture dealer will fill the house with antiques. Ugh!!!! I hate the idea of trying to make an interior look OLD!!! Just a personal taste of mine. My apologies!
I’m into Danish furnishings, but sometimes my furnished places I rent has yucky old stuff that looks 1933.
http://www.copenhagenliving.com/catalog/room/3
It depends on the house, doesn’t it? My 2006 sale was greatly helped by my antiques, since the house itself was about 100 yrs old. Woulda looked silly with Danish Modern stuff.
(Now I know why you moved to LA from Maryland.)
To Attract Moneyed Buyers, Agents Think Big
http://www (dot) chicagotribune (dot) com/classified/realestate/chi-0607-umberger-columnjun07,0,612032.column
That is the link to the Chicago article.
Its been a year or so since I checked, but when I did, the median house price in Arlington Heights (the town where they are trying to sell the house mentioned in the article) was 8x median salary.
“I’d think it would be great to close the park for a couple years to save money and limit human interaction.”
Closing down the park would not limit human interaction without stricter policing. It would be better from a cost-benefits standpoint to charge a high enough use fee to obtain conservation benefits and still facilitate access for those who place a high enough value on the opportunity.
#4 US_citizen_in_Calgary on 06.05.09 at 11:52 pm Garth:
That post is very reasonable. There are reasons why Arizona is not so great.
1)Water or lack of it. It is dangerously hot there.
2)Dangerous wildlife: Snakes and not so nice neighbours there.
3)Health insurance isnt free there.
Other than that, this paints a very accurate picture of how overpriced houses are in Canada.
What most Canadians dont realize is that the US is not friendly. Here is a recent comment from “The Greater Fool” blogsite in Canada…
“Canada for the most part is a very friendly place, compared to the USA. I grew up there and I always find it funny that Canadians describe it as some paradise. The USA is a country owned by foreigners and it is not a free place anymore. It is state controlled. My wife a Canadian by birth doesnt feel as antagonistic to the US as I do and most Canadians dont because they dont see the US from an insiders point of view.
Anyone buying property, especially in Arizona should be aware of a dangerous biosphere there in addition to the wild west that still exists there. Guns? Yes. Gangs? Yes. Danger? Yes. Domesticated Canadians would do well to stay away. You dont know what you are dealing with.”
Just for grins, I took another look at the market for used San Diego homes listed at $1m+, by going on the San Diego Real Estate site on the SD Union-Tribune web site (sdhomesearch dot signonsandiego dot com). Unfortunately if there are over 600 homes listed in any price range, you cannot get an exact count, so please excuse all the censored categories.
Here is what I found:
Price range (millions) / No of listings
$1-$1.25 600+
$1.25-$1.5 600+
$1.5-$1.75 600+
$1.75-$2 555
$2-$2.25 239
$2.25-$2.5 315
$2.5-$2.75 201
$2.75-$3 273
$3-$3.25 115
$3.25-$3.5 183
$3.5-$3.75 112
$3.75-$4 134
$4-$4.25 56
$4.25-$4.5 81
$4.5-$4.75 51
$4.75-$5 71
$5+ 377
Conclusion (drumrolls, please):
The total number of San Diego homes currently listed at $1m or more is over 3*600+555+239+315+201+273+115+183+112+134+56+81+51+71+377 = 4,563.
$1m+ San Diego homes for everyone!!!
Quick and dirty math: If only those $1m+ homes could all be sold at their list prices, they would generate $5bn+ in sales revenue. Too bad most will never sell at anywhere near their current wishing prices.
It is interesting that SD ziprealty shows only 2,353 used home listings in the $1m+ range, while almost twice that count show up on the SD Union-Tribune web site.
I also just did a Craigslist search of SD Homes for sale in the $1m+ price range. Here are the results:
Sale by broker = 714 homes
Sale by owner = 39 homes
Total = 714+39 = 753 $1m+ homes listed for sale on Craig’s list!!!
Dumb question of the day:
How many of the 4,500+ used homes currently listed for sale in San Diego will eventually
- sell for over $1m?
- be withdrawn before selling?
- physically depreciate while the seller waits for a buyer until they are worth less than $1m?
- stay on the market until the market value drops below $1m?
Did I miss any possibilities?
…listed for sale in San Diego (at $1m+, of course…)
foreclose?
Foreclosure only kicks the can down the road to another seller who faces the same problem…
Questions for anyone reading my posts today:
Do the numbers I have posted here coupled with CA unemployment north of 10 percent and a relentless gauntlet of option ARM recasts and resets (heavily concentrated in CA) scheduled to remain high through 2012 suggest that the CA housing market will soon turn around? Am I somehow missing the green shoots that are plainly obvious to everyone else?
no friggin’ way, my friend =”(
I gobble up all your posts but have nothing clever to say.
bravo!
I know it’s been forever since I posted here, but I thought I would share my story on the new frugality and jumping into the housing market.
Anyway, here is my (long winded) story.
My Divorce was final just a few days ago after 9 months since filing. I look forward to recovering and being a healthy person again.
My career is doing good, since I left Texas for the PNW, and my income has never been better (>200). In fact, I could *almost* afford to get divorced, it’s been that good.
Before the divorce, we used to own a 4500+ sq ft custom home in Rockwall, Tx next to the big lake. We sold it at a 10% loss a year ago (from our 2003 purchase price, not counting the 6-figures we put into it after purchase), after nearly a year of trying to get it ready to sell (Couldn’t make any progress getting it ready until the wife and kids moved out and in with her mom, as I was working in Austin by then). I priced and slashed the price aggressively, and we closed the sale 61 days after listing despite half a dozen houses for sale visible from the front lawn. I brought a check to the closing and was happy to do so.
At one point while we were living there, we had four (4) BMW 5-series in the driveway, all of them paid cash for. We had cash in the brokerage, a good income and life was good. Well, not really. I couldn’t control her consumption, and gave up on controlling mine at moments out of resignation. Our second child was living hell his first few years, costing me years of sleep and indirectly my job. We were, despite having no debt other than a 4.75% 15-year mortgage, and a few hundred thousand in declining assets, overextended and didn’t fully realize it.
It took the destruction of my marriage, and the turmoil of losing a couple jobs to fully gain the ‘less is more’ religion.
Last fall, I was living in an apartment in Austin, while my soon-to-be-ex was living with the kids at her mother’s home. We were down to one 10-year old 5-series, having sold off the others along the way to raise cash (and my left ankle blew up, rendering me unable to drive a manual again). And I got laid off, by a company that is now in bankruptcy.
We hit fiscal bottom last fall, albeit not as badly as some do. I was laid off, but after 2 months, I had 5 job offers outside the state to choose from, and took the best (and most secure) one and plodded along with the divorce on semi-hold while we were busy with all the other stuff. I borrowed from my IRA to bridge the gap until my signing bonus arrived, which it did.
I got to work looking at how to keep life simple. And simple for the rest of my life. First was the car situation.
After 6 BMWs, and their frequent appetite for luxury priced maintenance (we did keep them a long time typically), the goal became to find the cheapest car option with the best reliability and an expectation of keeping the car 10+ years.
So, I arranged for the soon-to-be-ex to buy a new 2009 Honda CR-V, with her name on the loan, despite her not being back to work yet. Knowing her mechanical inclination (none) and future situation, I bought the 8-year/120k extended factory warranty for less than $1k, a reflection of Honda views the maintenance likelihood on it. There would be no more spending $10 grand at the dealer in a single month for maintenance (actually happened Feb 2005, across 3 cars).
I took the 10-year old 5-series wagon with me, as there was some good life left in it, and found myself driving it only about 400 miles a month. As long as its cheap to keep, I’m keeping it hopefully until alimony completes in 2011. Then, once it gives up the ghost, it’s going to be an inexpensive Japanese (or Korean) for me. I regularly park next to some very expensive cars where I work, and don’t give a hoot.
In short, after decades of driving ‘luxury’ and enjoy the status, all I care about now is the long term expense in dollars and the hassle of maintenance.
Now, for the housing situation.
My ex-wife wasn’t going to live with her mother forever, and my kids needed rooms of their own. I drilled into her that either she needed to rent (which she balked at), or find something she can afford on her salary once she’s qualified to be a teacher in Texas.
She found a school she wanted to send the kids too way out in the county, east of DFW. And just down the road from it she found a house for sale. So I structured the divorce decree so should would be able to qualify for a mortgage for it on her own.
Almost 2 heavily wooded acres, with a 1200 sq-foot, totally non-assuming house on it. Smaller, simpler, and older than the “starter home” in the suburbs we had 15 years ago. It also has a decent sized workshop out back, and a pad with utilities for a trailer. Owners wanted $120k, talked them down to $100k. Outside of any city. Minimal taxes. Half a mile from the school. House heavily shaded and low utility costs.
The mortgage was bought down to 4.25%, and if her mom comes through, the down payment will be 20% eliminating PMI, and reducing her total PITI payment to about $540 a month. When the car is paid off, she could apply the payment to her mortgage and have it paid off in 10-years or less, without having to try and drag more money out of me.
So the goal is met. My kids and her will be safe and secure in a place costing less than almost anything safe they could rent.
Me? I’m living in a small apartment, and despite my good income, have no plans to buy for a long time. I live frugal, and don’t go out (apparently this comes with being divorced), and look to have all of the debt (took it all in the divorce), wiped out in a year. I’m throwing out and selling off all the stuff I’ve accumulated over the years. No more storage units. If something new comes in the place, something else has to leave to make room. And from here on out, it’s all about building reserves and living way below my means. And it’s about time and people, not things.
Ok, so what’s the point of my story?
Eh.. it’s just an opportunity to vent on the one hand. On the other hand, I can’t be alone. There have to be a lot of other people like me who have gone through their own transformation, and are looking at the future and asking “How can I spend as little as possible? How can I put myself in a position where I won’t be so vulnerable ever again?” (besides not getting married, duh)
And for every person like me, there’s going to be BMW salesman who doesn’t make his numbers. A mechanic who doesn’t fill all his hours. A city councilman who wonders why tax revenue is down. A furniture salesman who wonders why business is slow. And on and on. Once I was a happy consumer, convinced I could keep the good times rolling. And now I’m voting with my feet, and my pocketbook that less is more, and it’s not a passing fad.
Deepintheheartof - great post, it looks like you have taken care of your financial health, take care of your emotional health too. took a while for me…
Excellent story Deep.
But this is the big problem millions will do this and we will have no recovery for years.
Everyday i walk past factory buildings who are closing up after 20-30 40 years last week 210 employees of an envelope company, 41 years in that location. and nothing moving in.
Even if they made artist lofts, or heck even use a factory floor for homeless people you wont believe how many new cubicles you can get for free on craigslist!
We have No leaders in America and certainly no one can think outside the box and solve these problems quickly enough to prevent these buildings from deteriorating and collapsing in the next 5 years from neglect.
——————————————————————
“How can I spend as little as possible? How can I put myself in a position where I won’t be so vulnerable ever again?” (besides not getting married, duh)
Deepintheheartof, great message from your experience. You have taken care of your family and moved on with your life. You will be fine. Good luck.
Thank you for your story…and you were more literal and to the point than that NYT economics writer dude that told (most of) his foreclosure/BK story to all of us a few weeks back.
“Our second child was living hell his first few years, costing me years of sleep and indirectly my job.”
That is very sad. One of our kids nearly cost me my job, so I can really sympathize. (Luckily, he has outgrown many of the behaviors which threatened my employment and our family’s otherwise-harmonious existence.)
I admire your resilience, and hope I can match it when-and-if similar life-altering events demand it.
There, but for the Grace of God, go most of us. Best Wishes!
Yeah dining alone in any restaurant sucks!
same for shows and events.
Interested to see what the ForeclosureTown listing situation is for the San Francisco Bay Area? Here are results from 35 mile radius searches for representative zip codes in various Bay Area counties formerly known as wealthy:
County / Zip Code / Listings
San Francisco 94134 8,106
Alameda (Berkeley) 94702 10,833
Contra Costa (Danville) 94506 10,882
Marin (Stinson Beach) 94970 3,397
Napa (Saint Helena) 94574 2,101
San Mateo (Palo Alto) 94303 9,857
Santa Clara (San Jose) 94306 9,423
Solano (Fairfield) 94534 3,285
Sonoma (Petaluma) 94952 2,465
Total = 8,106+10,833+10,882+3,397+2,101+9,857+9,423+3,285+2,465 = 60,349.
I will allow that the 35-mile radius searches might result in some overlaps, but nonetheless it looks like the number of ForeclosureTown listings for the greater SF Bay Area may far eclipse the number for San Diego.
Now here is one for LA County (Watts) 90002. There are 41,446 ForeclosureTown listings in a 35 mile radius, the highest number I have seen for any 35 mile radius search I have conducted for California.
The area in square miles is 35^2*pi = 3,848 square miles, so the implied foreclosure density is 41,446/3,848 = 10.7 foreclosure sales per square mile, on average.
Does that sound a bit highish to anyone besides me?
Observation: There seem to be enough foreclosure listings available to satisfy California investor demand for housing for the foreseeable future…
The greater LA MSA has an area upwards of 10,000 square miles. If there are ten or so foreclosures per square mile, that would be 100,000 foreclosure home listings. Does it sound outlandishly high?
Dilbert is a hoot today as well.
But it got me thinking. Maybe the time for daily Sunday comics is past. Yes, readers are aghast when the strips are switched, and I know from experience that editors put as much thought into their comic selection as other content choices. I’m serious. They do.
But comics require four-color printing, all that newsprint, maybe a Goss setup… and generate next to zero in revenue. And it’s hard to imagine that a loss of comics would accelerate a readership decline which is already pronounced. End of an era, I would say.
Now, if Calvin and Hobbes were still in the Sunday mix, I might argue otherwise. Everybody should be transmogrified once in a while.
Above a response to Polly comic comment way up top.
Unsure why it landed down here.
Perhaps it will not be necessary to hand over billions of dollars to hedge funds who snapped up toxic mortgage assets in hopes of cashing in for bailout premiums?
Doubts mount over US toxic asset plan
By Krishna Guha and Edward Luce in Washington and Saskia Scholtes in New York
Published: June 7 2009 22:24 | Last updated: June 7 2009 22:24
The controversial US toxic asset clean-up plan, aimed at clearing bad loans from US banks’ books to enable them to raise capital and lend freely, has fallen behind schedule, and may never be fully implemented.
The plan has fallen prey to concerns from potential investors and regulators and waning interest from the banks themselves. Investors fear that Congress may set caps on pay while regulators are beginning to doubt whether the plan is really necessary.
Last week, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, which was supposed to provide finance for investors to purchase bubble-era bank loans, postponed plans for a pilot sale, saying it was less urgent than had been thought.
“The timing just is not right,” an FDIC official told the Financial Times. He said the FDIC still wanted to test a mechanism for loan auctions but might hold it in reserve rather than activating it for general use.
Officials say the need for these facilities has waned, and add that several banks have raised billions of dollars in share capital even with toxic assets on their books.
“Banks have been able to raise capital without having to sell bad assets through the LLP [limited liability partnership], which reflects renewed investor confidence in our banking system,” Sheila Bair, chairman of the FDIC, said last week.
“Banks have been able to raise capital without having to sell bad assets through the LLP [limited liability partnership], which reflects renewed investor confidence in our banking system,” Sheila Bair, chairman of the FDIC, said last week.”
Sheila, how’s about you buy that bridge in Brooklyn from me?
The good news: The green shoots theory is leading many to believe the recession is ending.
The bad news: The higher l-t T-bond rates that result are likely to translate into higher mortgage rates before household incomes recover from the labor market impact of the recession, worsening the housing price crash.
Treasuries Decline on Speculation U.S. Economy Is Recovering
By Wes Goodman
June 8 (Bloomberg) — Treasuries fell for a third day on speculation a government report this week on retail sales will add to signs the U.S. economic recession is ending.
Ten-year yields approached the highest level in seven months as the Treasury Department prepared to sell $65 billion in notes and bonds this week, raising concern rates will have to increase to attract investors. Government securities have fallen 6.2 percent so far this year, heading for their first annual loss in a decade according to Merrill Lynch & Co.’s U.S. Treasury Master index, as employment and manufacturing improve.
“The economy is bottoming out,” said Hideo Shimomura, who oversees $4 billion in non-yen bonds as chief fund investor in Tokyo at Mitsubishi UFJ Asset Management Co., a unit of Japan’s largest bank. “Investors should protect their portfolios” against further losses, he said.
The yield on the 10-year note rose four basis points to 3.87 percent as of 11:32 a.m. in Tokyo, according to BGCantor Market Data. The price of the 3.125 percent security maturing in May 2019 fell 10/32, or $3.13 per $1,000 face amount, to 93 29/32. A basis point is 0.01 percentage point.
Yields on the 2019 notes climbed to 3.90 percent on June 5, the most since Nov. 4, rising from a record low of 2.04 percent on Dec. 18. The yield on the two-year note rose four basis points to 1.33 percent today.
Bernanke Conundrum Threatens Housing on Mortgage Rate (Update1)
By Liz Capo McCormick and Dakin Campbell
June 8 (Bloomberg) — The biggest price swings in Treasury bonds this year are undermining Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke’s efforts to cap consumer borrowing rates and pull the economy out of the worst recession in five decades.
The yield on the benchmark 10-year Treasury note rose to 3.90 percent last week as volatility in government bonds hit a six-month high, according to Merrill Lynch & Co.’s MOVE Index of options prices. Thirty-year fixed-rate mortgages jumped to 5.45 percent from as low as 4.85 percent in April, according to Bankrate.com in North Palm Beach, Florida. Costs for homebuyers are now higher than in December.
Government bond yields, consumer rates and price swings are increasing as the Fed fails to say if it will extend the $1.75 trillion policy of buying Treasuries and mortgage bonds through so-called quantitative easing, traders say. The daily range of the 10-year Treasury yield has averaged 12 basis points since March 18, when the plan was announced, up from 8.6 basis points since 2002, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
“Volatility has increased dramatically and it seems to get more each day,” said Thomas Roth, head of U.S. government-bond trading in New York at Dresdner Kleinwort, one of the 16 primary dealers of U.S. government securities that trade with the Fed. “A lot of that has to do with uncertainty about whether the Fed will increase purchases of Treasuries. The market is looking for some change in the Fed’s plan.”
Greenspan’s Conundrum
The rise in borrowing costs in the face of record low interest rates, Fed purchases and a contracting economy is the opposite of the challenge Bernanke’s predecessor, Alan Greenspan, confronted when he led the Fed.
Misconception in perpetuity: The Fed controls long-term interest rates.
Wall Street Journal
* CREDIT MARKETS
* JUNE 8, 2009
Rate Fears Send Treasurys Lower
By DEBORAH LYNN BLUMBERG
Prices of shorter-dated Treasurys were lower as expectations rose that policy makers could increase interest rates sooner than expected after another batch of better-than-anticipated economic data.
The move marks a change for the bond market, which for months had maintained stable short-end yields, given the belief that the federal-funds target rate of between 0% and 0.25% would be in place for a while.
A payrolls report that showed U.S. job losses softened last month was the catalyst that sent shorter-term Treasury prices tumbling, and yields rising. The two-year note was yielding 1.30% in late trading on Friday, a level last hit in November.
The Treasury yield curve, the gap between two- and 10-year yields, flattened to 2.54 percentage points from 2.75 points on Thursday.
Late Friday in New York, the 10-year note was down 1 5/32, or $11.5625 per $1,000 face value, at 93 31/32. Its yield rose to 3.861% from 3.716% late Thursday, as yields move inversely to prices. The two-year note was down 22/32 at 99 5/32, to yield 1.307%, up from 0.954% late Thursday.
“The market is building in a tightening by the Fed sooner rather than later,” said Andrew Brenner, senior vice president at MF Global in New York. Mr. Brenner called Friday’s move one of the biggest turnarounds in the yield curve in years. He also said negative rates in the government-securities repurchase market were adding to the Treasury market’s volatility.
P.S. A tightening by the Fed would normally have the effect of bringing long-term yields down, with no need for quantitative easing, due to the dampening effect on economic activity.
Another long drive through the desert on interstate 8 Boarder patrol with AR15 rifles crossing the highway and it looks like the CA highway Patrol has declared war on its drivers many many stops all over San Diego to the AZ boarder. Crazy Times
I got half my cactus collection pass the AG inspectors and into San Diego so I’m happy about that. Highway patrol all over the CA side of the boarder as I have mentioned. Another run this next weekend its like passing through a war zone in a ominous kind of way. pretty drug sniffing dogs which they have them jump in tubs of water to cool off at the low desert check points. I would like a dog like that when I get my house some day over the rainbow as prices still silly high. and is everyone in N san Diego county over 65 ? I thought Phoenix was supposed to be old.
My little sis just e-mailed her thanks for my financial advice, which she claims enabled her to earn $11K over a few months of stock market speculation (I am not sure which of my myriad ‘tinfoil hat’ prognostications to which she credits her investing success ). She just cashed in her green shoots chips, and is planning to wait for the next ‘mini-crash’ to reload her bets. With rising bond yields afoot, I am guessing another crash is baked in the cake within a few months.
Treasuries and Stocks, in a Role Reversal
By JEFF SOMMER
Published: June 6, 2009
THE Treasury market has been wobbly, but the stock market has rallied — along with commodities, junk bonds and a wide range of other relatively risky asset classes in the United States and abroad.
“In many ways, what we’re seeing is a mirror image of 2008,” said Mary J. Miller, the director of the fixed-income division at T. Rowe Price. Treasuries soared in value last year when investors went on a wild “flight to quality,” driving down the prices of nearly everything else. That “fear trade” has abated as the financial system has stabilized, she said, and riskier assets have been rebounding.
“It feels very different from last year,” she said.
Many investors who moved to the sidelines in the debacle of 2008 have begun to return to the stock market. “Investors don’t like to be left behind in any rally,” said Henry Kaufman, the veteran Wall Street economist. “The juices are beginning to work, and that’s a good thing.”
Wall Street Journal
* JUNE 8, 2009
Land Mines Pockmark Road to Recovery
By MARK GONGLOFF
The stock market has erased almost all its losses for the year, yields on long-term government debt have returned to something like normal, and commodity prices have been surging — all evidence that the worst of the economic crisis may have passed.
But the road to recovery is far from smooth, or even assured. As investors ponder their next moves in this unusually unpredictable cycle, they are confronted with a confounding array of potential risks.
Last Friday, they got a taste. The government’s announcement of the lowest job-loss numbers since September didn’t much faze the stock market. But the market for U.S. Treasury debt had its worst day in nine months, driven by worries about inflation and higher interest rates.
In today’s jittery markets, good news on one front can have surprisingly bad effects elsewhere. At stake is the fragile confidence that’s been restored in the financial system.
A jump in economic growth, for example, could send commodity prices sharply higher. On Friday, oil briefly traded above $70 a barrel, due partly to economic optimism. Worries about inflation would cause interest rates to rise, hurting the housing market. Higher commodity prices could also be a drag on economic recovery, pushing job losses higher and leading to more mortgage defaults.
Many strategists and economists hold a relatively hopeful view: that a wave of government stimulus will hit the economy in time to unleash pent-up consumer and business demand, without stoking too much inflation. Such an outcome — a classic “V-shaped” recovery marked by a quick bottoming out and a lasting rebound — would enable stocks and other assets to keep rising in the second half of the year.
But the risks to that orderly scenario are high. It is possible that government stimulus could make the economy run too hot, fueling inflation that would force the government to slam the brakes on growth, creating a double-dip, or a “W-shaped,” recovery. The spike in yields on Treasurys on Friday was driven by the view that the Federal Reserve would need to raise interest rates sooner than expected, possibly slowing the economy too fast, too soon.
It’s also possible that the government stimulus will be ineffective at a time when households are staggering under the weight of debt and the loss of trillions of dollars in net worth. In that case, a sluggish recovery would be more likely. That could prevent inflation but make unemployment worse, in turn leading more people to fall behind on their mortgages, hurting the housing market and causing a new round of losses at banks.
Beware of geeks bearing grifts (sorry I cannot get over that one — cracks me up every time…)
Bank Profits From Accounting Rules Masking Looming Loan Losses
By Yalman Onaran
June 5 (Bloomberg) — Big banks in the U.S. say they’re on the mend. The five largest were profitable in the first quarter, rebounding from record losses for the industry in the fourth quarter. Share prices have jumped, with the KBW Bank Index doubling since March 6.
Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, after “stress testing” 19 banks on their ability to withstand a worsening economy, declared in early May that Americans can be confident in the banks’ stability and resilience. Wells Fargo & Co. and Morgan Stanley were among banks raising $43 billion in new capital since then through share sales.
“With our capital and assets, stressed as they have been, we can go back to focusing all our attention on managing our business and restoring value,” Citigroup Inc. Chief Executive Officer Vikram Pandit said after Geithner’s examinations were completed.
The revival may be short-lived. Analysts who have examined the quarterly profits and government tests say that accounting rule changes and rosy assumptions are making the institutions look healthier than they are.