June 15, 2009

Bits Bucket For June 15, 2009

Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum. And see the American Visionaries series from Schwarzfilm.




RSS feed | Trackback URI

415 Comments »

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 05:52:56

Back from vacation! 9 days on the beach in Florida with no internet access. It was rough I have to say. I was down in your neck of the woods palmetto - on Anna Maria.

Wha’d I miss?

:)

Comment by palmetto
2009-06-15 06:09:34

“I was down in your neck of the woods palmetto - on Anna Maria.”

Lovely island and beach. No red tide, I assume?

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 06:17:05

No red tide. The water was awesome. There was however some really weird looking stuff that I’d never seen before - looked exactly like shredded parmesan cheese. Tons of it. Any idea what that might be? Wasn’t sure if it was some type of seaweed or something.

Tons of sand fleas too - my 4-year-old daughter got a *big* kick out of them. I spent the whole week catching them and giving them to her to hold. You could rub your foot across the sand when a wave went by and hundreds would come out. I’ve never seen so many.

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 06:19:17

BTW - if you haven’t been there yet, check out Robinson Preserve on Perico Island. It’s fairly new, and has an awesome kayak path, and a nice bike/hike path. At the north end there’s a 4-story tower with a great view of the bay.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 05:53:44

Mayors say cities need direct economic help…

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Without more direct aid to U.S. local governments, Washington may make matters worse for cities facing falling tax revenues and increased spending needs, the nation’s mayors said at their annual meeting this weekend.

Mayors said they bear the tough task of cutting services and jobs vital to U.S. cities, even with help from the $787 billion in stimulus funds Congress passed in February.

“We make these decisions because we don’t have a choice,” said Miami Mayor Manuel Diaz, current president of the U.S. Conference of Mayors, referring to layoffs and cost cuts in education and urban development. “We have to balance our budgets, and we cannot print money every week.”

Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter said the “toughest part is cutting back on programs and services that people really want in their communities, and having to explain to them why we can’t do certain things anymore because we just don’t have the money.”

Local governments, struggling to issue debt in a largely stalled municipal bond market, expressed worries that current federal stimulus initiatives — including development grants, infrastructure funding, and the subsidized Recovery Zone and Build America Bonds — while helpful, may not be enough in the financial crisis.

“And it’s important that metropolitan areas get money directly for recovery, and not through the states,” said Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, who has voiced concerns that states may use stimulus funds to close their own budget deficits, especially in California with its massive $24.3 billion gap.

Organizers of the mayor’s annual conference had counted on President Barack Obama and others from his administration to attend, but a labor dispute between host Mayor David Cicilline of Providence, Rhode Island, and the area’s firefighters union led to the unprecedented federal absence from the meeting.

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 07:27:57

Mayors said they bear the tough task of cutting services and jobs vital to U.S. cities, even with help from the $787 billion in stimulus funds Congress passed in February.

I’ll bet if you look at what they’re doing - not one of these cities is actually reducing their services back to 2000 levels, which is where they should be, at a minimum. There was incredible expansion of government services and budgets during the 2000-2007 timeframe, now they’re complaining about a contraction that pales in comparison to the expansion.

That’s true where I live at least, and from what I’ve heard about most other places.

Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 07:47:20

“That’s true where I live at least, and from what I’ve heard about most other places”.

I would bet it’s true for the majority of our cities, our bleeding heart Mayor is whining like a five year old child about the danger of cutting “vital” services. Of course the very first group they bring up are the elderly, poor,& childrens services.

Our little city is redundant with make work BS jobs.

Comment by James
2009-06-15 08:35:42

You know it is strange that cities would have make work jobs. Most of them could use people working on infrastructure, graffiti clean up and so forth.

Hell, most of us have to make a yearly pilgrimage to the DMV to pay for “registration” and that is just a make work tax.

Could have those guys out cleaning up around the city.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-06-15 09:19:28

Real work is to be punished in New Future, as is anything productive.

Baltimorgue is a crumbling outpost of Hades, complete with packs of feral youth prowling the Inner Harbor - the only “crime free” zone in the city - randomly assaulting and robbing people. The city’s response is to claim there’s no problem, take cops from other areas and stick them there, and then under-report the crime statistics to make things look better than they are. Now that the money is running out, they intend to close down all the city-funded summer activity centers, which will in turn encourage more bored, parentless youth to join local gangs. I’m sure that all of this together will result in “green shoots” for the city, if the bullets that do the shooting are painted green.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-06-15 09:30:24

Hell, most of us have to make a yearly pilgrimage to the DMV to pay for “registration” and that is just a make work tax.

I pay mine online.

 
Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-06-15 13:52:40

“Baltimorgue is a crumbling outpost of Hades…….”

Hey man, don’t sugar coat it………tell us what you really think. :)

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 21:39:35

Didn’t Edgar Allen Poe hail from Baltimorgue? Or was it Rue Morgue?

 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 08:44:36

Our little city is redundant with make work BS jobs ??

+1 wmbz…..Ditto here…Particularly with high pay…Our city manager makes $285,000. per year…A friend of mine reads water meters and makes $70,000. +….We have 3 people for every shovel and a firefighter on every corner…Its just sic…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by oxide
2009-06-15 09:50:23

A friend of mine reads water meters and makes $70,000.

This is insane. That’s what PhD engineers make.

 
Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 10:05:55

Its beyond insane…

 
Comment by CrackerJim
2009-06-15 10:42:01

“A friend of mine reads water meters and makes $70,000.

This is insane. That’s what PhD engineers make.”

I don’t know what a PhD engineer makes in my area of application engineering as there are none. No one seems to need one. The customers all seem to be happy with us generic PE types.

 
Comment by AppleEye
2009-06-15 12:15:57

Anyone with a PhD making $70K/year isn’t very smart.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 13:10:31

“Anyone with a PhD making $70K/year isn’t very smart.”

Anyone who says that isn’t very smart.

 
Comment by patient renter
2009-06-15 16:16:52

Income is not a reflection of one’s intellect or talent. Often it’s a reflection of one’s integrity (read: selling out).

One of the better economists I follow (who called the bubble) makes around 80k. You can imagine what his many colleagues who terribly missed the bubble make…

 
Comment by SV_Renter
2009-06-15 16:44:58

Comment by AppleEye
2009-06-15 12:15:57
Anyone with a PhD making $70K/year isn’t very smart.

You obviously don’t know much about Ph.D. programs, semipermanent post-docs (at *much* less than 70K !), competition for tenure-track jobs, the average pay for anyone not in an R1 institution, or basic supply and demand.

 
Comment by Dan
2009-06-15 17:15:54

I am an EE with bachelor degree from university in Eastern Europe and make $90K. The average salary for hardware engineer in LA County is $88K in San Jose little higher…. 90% of all high hardware engineers fall in the industry range is 50-120K. Software engineers get paid a bit lower but with bigger spread… After 10 years experience degrees don’t matter and are pretty much irrelevant for your carrier. Education bubble, somebody? Still I doubt there is much PHD engineers with $70K. All this said doesn’t change the point of people that doubt that there are a lot of $200K earners. Engineers in USA make only 2 million from 150 million work forces. Even engineers tend to think themselves smarter than the rest of the population I have seen close-up same delusion about the direction of the RE markets and US in general. Delusions in engineer’s minds make them very good victims of this whole mess. Big salaries, little common since when to buy house… The tragedy is that you can hold on to payments for $700K house with salary of $90K, but it makes no since. Classic Greek tragedy!

 
Comment by phxis2hot
2009-06-15 19:14:50

Dan,

How to PEs look at physics majors. I’m still in a non-technical profession but I decided to go back to school and get a MS in physics, primarily because I’m an amateur astro buff but also because I want to hone my technical skills in case my day job vanishes. I’m 39…AND RENT! How’s the job market for a guy like me? In Socal.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 21:40:59

“Often it’s a reflection of one’s integrity (read: selling out).”

The world’s oldest profession has always been lucrative and remains so to date.

 
Comment by Leighsong
2009-06-15 22:58:43

P’Bear - ya made me blush!

Holy Cow!

Chuckles,
Leigh

 
 
 
Comment by polly
2009-06-15 08:02:14

On going expenses for increased services is part of the problem, and a big part, but there are fixed costs from the wild building spree too.

Closing the new library and firing all the librarians won’t get them out of the payments on the bonds they issued to build it.

I’m not defending them. Just pointing out that going back to 2000 level services won’t bring them back to 2000 level expenses. Not by a long shot.

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 08:20:28

Good point. Yes this is true.

All the more reason why debt is bad. At least when it comes time to cut expenses the cutbacks would be more meaningful.

Same for a household - if you lose your job it’s a lot easier to make do by cutting expenses by 50% if you don’t have a mortgage that’s 5x your other monthly expenses.

When will people learn that - quite simply - debt is a very, very bad thing?

(more on that to come below….)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 08:39:22

I work out at a city recreation center near the Arizona Slim Ranch. Whenever I swipe my card at the front desk, I notice that there are three or four staff members just sitting there.

Since the check-in system is automated, why are so many staff members needed? If some kid comes in wanting to borrow a basketball for a pickup game in the gym, he/she can get in line. And I might add that this front desk usually doesn’t get enough traffic to form a line.

Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-06-15 10:55:13

I’d like to know how much of this additional spending is being driven by Federal Government “mandates” of some kind or another.

Case in point…….Interstate highways used to have gravel shoulders, and on-off ramps that were significantly shorter than the ones they build now.

Now, ramps are significantly longer, and both inner and outer shoulders are (essentially) additional paved lanes. All that extra asphalt concrete isn’t free.

Comment by laurel, md
2009-06-15 15:12:48

Non paved shoulders on high speed big volume roads are very dangerous. The final four/six inches of paved surface on the prepared stone base is not that expensive.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-06-15 10:34:27

I really don’t understand the way state and city governments do things.

They always expand the budget/spending to match the tax revenue…..never any reserve, or “rainy day” savings.

Just imagine if they had set money aside …….they could be putting out RFQs for infrastructure projects (helping employment), while getting a cheaper price on the bids (because all the projects in the civilian economy have dried up).

(This, of course, is assuming that we are in Utopia-world, where bids aren’t rigged/local government isn’t bought by the developers or unions/etc.)

Comment by SaladSD
2009-06-15 10:52:02

Problem is, whenever there actually is money set aside for a rainy day fund, we either find a way to spend it, or the anti-tax crowd complains bitterly that it’s due to overtaxation and demand tax cuts. Our 24 billion budget deficit is partially due to Arnold rolling back the vehicle license fees in CA.

Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-06-15 11:11:09

True…….my Utopia-world would include an anti-tax crowd that would understand the concept of a “rainy day” fund.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by patient renter
2009-06-15 16:18:58

But failed to address exactly what it was that caused the need for the increase in the VLF in the first place?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by SaladSD
2009-06-15 20:38:25

Here you go, from the Washington Monthly 1998 archive:

When Arnold came into office after demonizing Davis’s attempt to be an adult by restoring the vehicle license fee to its 1998 level (it had been temporarily reduced thanks to good economic times during the dotcom boom), he immediately cut the VLF and then issued an enormous bond to make up the resulting shortfall. Today, the combination of the reduced VLF revenue plus payments on the bond is about $7 billion a year. Depending on whose numbers you believe, this accounts for somewhere between two-thirds and 90% of next year’s projected deficit.

 
Comment by REhobbyist
2009-06-15 20:46:44

I’m hoping for a California bankruptcy. It’s the only way to get rid of the outrageous state pension system. Cops and firefighters get 100% of their salary as pension after 30 years. Prison guards get 90%. Some other state workers get 75%. All get full medical benefits with these early retirements, usually 10-15 years before Medicare kicks in.

 
Comment by Leighsong
2009-06-15 23:07:00

RE -

A few years ago, I jokingly typed on this blog how hubby and I are retired USAF -

Secure retirement, right?

I take nothing for…certain -

Best,
Leigh

 
 
 
Comment by SouthFL
2009-06-15 11:34:10

I’ve never understood this either - in our newspaper, I see article after article about the county budget crisis because revenue is down to “2002 levels”. What the heck were they doing in 2002? They sure as heck weren’t complaining they were broke!

I think they should just get the 2002 budget out of the filing cabinet and just use that one. And if next year they are at “2001 levels” - pull out the 2001 budget. Simple enough, right?

 
 
 
Comment by arizonadude
2009-06-15 05:54:47

I see california has a new 90 day moratorium on foreclosures.This is a total joke.The state is so screwed up it doesn’t know what to do.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 07:36:55

After three months have elapsed, I suppose they can always renew the moratorium. In theory, underwater California loanowners could live rent-free indefinitely, and the banks never need report their losses.

Comment by Skip
2009-06-15 07:45:11

Yeah, but those owners won’t be building up equity. :-)

Comment by DennisN
2009-06-15 08:43:40

At least they won’t be throwing away their money on rent.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Neil
2009-06-15 08:45:06

Ugh! This is stupid to the nth degree.

When are the banks going to wake up and do a 90-day mortgage moratorium? Contract law is being changed. Why this new 90 day hold? Oh yea… its Beverly Hills and 100 other ‘different’ cities now seeing foreclosures. Gee…, it would somehow be wrong to flood those markets and expose the true health of the state’s economy… Grrr…

Oh, My corworker’s sister who has gone 19 months mortgage/property tax free just found out there was a legal botch on her ex-Countrywide mortgage (Riverside, CA). The state attorney just informed them that due to the legal issue, the city cannot foreclose on property taxes nor can BoA until the legal issues are settled. BoA has decided to let the state sort it out (state pays attorney fees). ETA for a resolution is 15 to 24 months due to the backlog!

“live rent-free indefinitely” is sounding certain.

Oh… I’m still predicting 25% will be the normal down payment. Its taken longer than I expected… but we’ll be there within 18 months. Mortgage insurers have to be running scared. Rumor mill is that the mortgage insurers are the hold up on CA sales, anyone have a good link?

Got Popcorn?
Neil

Comment by cereal
2009-06-15 08:54:34

90 days will bring us to Sep 15. And then look out below.

None of us are in the market yet anyway. Keep busy, do other things.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 09:28:58

“And then look out below.”

What makes you think the moratorium won’t be renewed come Sept 15 or shortly thereafter? I foresee renewed moratoria for the foreseeable future, until prices come back up…

 
 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-06-15 09:23:06

Yep, that’s the goal. Everybody pretends to be solvent AND they get to punish savers and lock-out new buyers who might be able to afford a house at a decent price.

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 09:37:19

After three months have elapsed, I suppose they can always renew the moratorium. In theory, underwater California loanowners could live rent-free indefinitely, and the banks never need report their losses.

Yes. This bears deeper discussion IMO. Might these moratoriums be somewhat tied to the FASB rule change?

Theoretically this could go on until after high inflation sets in. Then when home prices have risen again (nominally) - they may start working out deals as people start to become above water again; and are willing to be tied to their homes again to get the equity gains; so the banks can lock in their future profits.

The banks can write off their losses very slowly as these deals go through, and these folks’ years of free rent is paid for by you and me via inflation and taxes. It’s just another form of subsidized housing, except we’re subsidizing $800,000 houses with pools and such.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 10:08:21

“Theoretically this could go on until after high inflation sets in. Then when home prices have risen again (nominally) - they may start working out deals as people start to become above water again; and are willing to be tied to their homes again to get the equity gains; so the banks can lock in their future profits.”

Another possibility: By artificially reducing supply below what market forces would dictate, foreclosure moratoria serve to create a ’short squeeze’ on those who are waiting for prices to bottom out. My personal belief is that fundamentals will ultimately overwhelm these efforts (as they largely have to date), but that the correction can be dragged out for much many years due to such interventions.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by patient renter
2009-06-15 16:21:10

If that’s the case, and this is a game of chicken, I guarantee you, I will win sir. I have all the patience in the world.

 
 
 
Comment by desertdweller
2009-06-15 10:44:25

I am mad as he ll that I didn’t buy a house now and live free.
As a renter waiting for reality prices to return, I am sitting here holding the bag, paying bills/rent. Pis ses me off. I just found out about a couple of acquaintances that are living mortgage free for over 1 yr. Da mn.

Comment by desertdweller
2009-06-15 10:49:04

And then if, as packman pointed out, these folks’ years of free rent is paid for by you and me, well, I would rather CHOOSe who I want to help pay for their living expenses. LIke mom.
Dam mit.
If I am going to struggle with extra taxes and extra fees and so on, then I want to struggle for mom, someone who cares about me, not some suv driving, soccermom/dad, starbux swilling,vacation taking, shopaholic,houseflipping nutjob,someone who still has a job, who doesn’t give a $!@%*&#&!@^%# about you and I.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by drumminj
2009-06-15 10:56:26

I would rather CHOOSE who I want to help pay for their living expenses.

I was thinking about this last night. The manager at my apartment complex just moved out (and quit as manager). You can tell she’s a woman who’s working hard (her daughter and I think granddaughter - someone has a very young child in that house - live with her) and doing what she can. She’s the type of person I’d be inclined to try to give some money to help her out - no clue how to do so without seeming patronizing or like I’m looking on her with pity, though.

But then I started thinking about the property taxes I pay (well, right now indirectly through rent), the tax deductions and credits one gets for having kids/dependents (head of household, plus dependents, plus child tax credit), and I realized that I’m already helping out EVERYONE with kids.

I wish I could appropriate that money myself. But apparently those who voted for our current (and past) leaders think they have the right to take my money and allocate it themselves.

Sigh.

 
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-06-15 12:09:35

Yes. As with everything else, gov’t benefit programs “crowd out” private charity. And it’s only real charity if you’re helping someone from your own initiative, not if you’re being forced to do it.

 
Comment by drumminj
2009-06-15 13:03:03

Any suggestions on how to offer “help” to someone in this situation without appearing condescending? That’s the type of think I struggle with in life, no matter how sincere I might be.

 
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-06-15 13:16:16

Frame it as a loan, or a payment for some kind of help– getting groceries for you or something.

 
Comment by dude
2009-06-16 04:20:38

…or offer her too much money for cleaning your apartment once/week.

 
 
 
Comment by LA-Architect
2009-06-15 21:32:19

I have a friend who hasn’t paid a dime on her mortgage since last October. The friend has a lawyer (who worked for Countrywide when prices were going up) negotiating a principal reduction (a significant one). BofA keeps extending it by 60 days. No word on whether this will be granted.

I cannot express how absolutely ridiculous this is. I wish that I could live &$$*@@! rent free for 9 - 12 months. Imagine how much better my bank account would be.

Isn’t there something against price fixing and widespread industry collusion????

Oh… and the California government just passed another 90 moratorium. Great!!!! So all of these underwater property speculators are also NOT paying local property taxes, which just makes it worse for the local government and the respective services.

I would just like a fair playing ground to buy a house to damn well live in!

 
 
Comment by robiscrazy
2009-06-15 08:27:28

Capitol Public Radio here in Sacramento was reporting on the 90 day moratorium this morning.

My fist just about went thru the speaker at a velocity that would have reached the studio.

 
Comment by OCBear
2009-06-15 09:06:53

I missed this one.

Another Band-Aid on a Hemorrhaging wound.
Getting kind of sick of it though. In the end what will this do?
Mot much, imho.

 
Comment by bananarepublic
2009-06-15 09:07:07

Basically people are going to live rent-free indefinitely. Now, if they were actually renters…they would be out on the street and nobody would give a damn.

 
Comment by Captain Credit Crunch
2009-06-15 10:22:21

Don’t they have a budget to make?

 
Comment by JohnF
2009-06-15 10:40:09

There are a ton of loopholes in the 90-day moratorium law, the biggest being that if a servicer has a loan mod program in place (apparently they don’t have to actually do any mods) they are exempt from the law and can continue with the foreclosure process.

 
Comment by milkcrate
2009-06-15 10:41:41

Some details about the moratorium from the state’s Web site:

In order to be eligible for the foreclosure sale moratorium of 90 days under SB X2 7, all of the following conditions must exist:
 The loan was made between 1/1/2003 and 1/1/2008, inclusive.
 The lien is in first position.
 The property is owner occupied.
 The notice of default has been recorded against the property.

So investment property is not covered.
There are lots of other exclusions, too.

To which I say, you can’t stop the rain by going outside with an umbrella, no matter how wide the shield is. Nature wins.

Comment by OCBear
2009-06-15 15:38:52

 The property is owner occupied.

Large numbers of people who bought a property as an investment during this time period lied on the documentation saying it was their primary residence. So unless they are verifying this somehow, I think it’s a non-useable rule.

Their sophistacted investors, not gonna leave 1/2% to 1% interest on the table. Nevermind the Truth.

At one point on this Blog I beleive I read an anecdote of an “Investor” (AKA Fraudster) who had over 20 prperties of which were all his primary residence.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 21:48:22

“So unless they are verifying this somehow, I think it’s a non-useable rule.”

If politicians, the lender and the occupant are mutually benefiting from putting off the day of reckoning, then who has the incentive to verify?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-06-15 11:07:16

They have one thumb in their mouth, the other up their a##, waiting for someone to holler “Switch!!”.

The Feds are following close behind………squirming, delaying, going off on tangents, hoping for a stampede of candy-crapping unicorns to save them from having to tell the J6Ps that everyone is pretty much screwed.

Bankers/Wall Street get the life rafts, because they are “essential to the economy……”

Everyone else………basically replaceable/interchangable.

 
Comment by mikey
2009-06-15 11:28:00

IMHO, one of the reassons that Housing sales and transfers are frozen is automation and MTG Servicer Fraud.

57 million of the lenders, servicers, insurance and title companies went with MERS automated system for house SALES instead of holding onto orginal House notes and titles safe in vaults and secure warehouse document storage facilities. Brokers and MTG loan servicer outfits just flipped the “ownership” through MERS using IT as a Origional Mortgage(MOM)and outpaced the hard paper or lost or misplaced the documents. They got their money and could care less if the next financial fool in the FIRE foodchain got the orgional note or contract. Things were fast and furious, moneymaking and nobody cared because they had MERS for their Quick and Dirty Deals. It worked and it was easy..UNTIL…

Now they can NOT find the origional papers and the MERS is underfire with challenges and lawsuits of “clouded titles” and “Show me the Note” demands of GF,FB foreclosures, their lawyers and even average potential buyers.

Good Luck producing the One and Only LEGAL Origional Note,True Owner and Contract on some of these sliced and diced FIRE deals. The POTENTIAL for Fraud and invalid claims to House ownership has eveyone terrified from Lenders, True Owners, the Courts and MTG Servicers to Title Companies and their Insurers.

http://tinyurl.com/l9l8f8

http://tinyurl.com/l6dbdz

 
 
Comment by John
2009-06-15 05:58:08

I’m looking to buy in south oc. Laguna Niguel to be exact. It seems that there is a standoff now between buyers and sellers. Sellers don’t want to lower there prices but no ones buying. I really hope prices drop another 20% from todays lowest asking prices. My plans are to buy mid 2010.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 06:12:23

“It seems that there is a standoff now between buyers and sellers.”

Don’t know about that area, but a standoff has played out for years already here in Rancho Bernardo (SD 92127)…

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 06:15:23

Here is a bit of evidence from an article in today’ s SD Union-Tribune:

At the current rate, it would take nearly four months to sell all homes listed for less than $1 million. For homes priced at $1 million or more, the backlog stands at about 30 months, according to the San Diego Association of Realtors.

Obviously, the top end represents a small fraction of the local inventory. According to Zillow.com, 44,500, or 5.9 percent of the nearly 750,000 homes the online company tracks locally are worth $1 million or more. They are generally concentrated in coastal communities with a few scattered throughout the rest of the county.

But of the 13,010 homes on the local multiple listing service last week, 2,537, or 19.5 percent, carry asking prices in the seven figures. The National Association of Realtors reports that the national share of sales above $750,000 is half of what it was two years ago.

In San Diego County, the drop-off of sales of homes at $1 million or more is even more dramatic, down from 73 percent this year from 2006’s peak rate.

“I’ve been doing this since 1975 and never seen anything quite as volatile,” said Willis-Allen Real Estate agent Linda Daniels.

Daniels said buyers are playing it cool, offering 40 percent below asking price and walking away if sellers don’t cave.

“It’s wild,” she said.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-06-15 08:24:35

Only 4 months on homes under $1M. That’s pretty good…and surprising!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DennisN
2009-06-15 08:46:28

What’s more surprising is that only 6% of the homes are supposedly worth more than $1 million. That wouldn’t hold true in Santa Clara county IIUC.

 
Comment by Neil
2009-06-15 08:47:01

See the above discussion on the new (2nd) foreclosure moratorium.

I’m serious. This has kept most of the inventory off the market to give the appearence of stability.

Got Popcorn?
Neil

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 10:11:33

“…and surprising!”

Not at all, when you consider (1) the ‘new buyer’ tax credit; (2) Fed/Treasury mortgage interest rate buy downs (through purchase of MBS); (3) big drop in prices at the low end (40 pct+?); (4) perception that inventories are shrinking, due to foreclosure moratoria and banks hanging on to shadow inventory.

Fundamentals do not look that promising for the latest round of knifecatchers, IMO.

 
 
 
Comment by 4sAnchor
2009-06-15 10:14:00

Hey PB!

I read the comments every day, but rarely ever post. Are you from RB? You sure are right about RB. Poway and Esco are giving way big time, but RB is stubborn.

- 4sAnchor

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 13:08:33

We are long-term RB renters. I give occasional advice to other renters I know in the area with young families who, like ourselves, unfortunately do not expect multi-million dollar inheritances. (Everyone we know who has moved into the area and bought since we lived here had lots of help from mom and pop…)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by SDNewbie
2009-06-15 13:57:48

Hello Professor Bear,

I didn’t realize you were in San Diego County . . . what do you see happening in the North County area over the next 12-18 months? I’m in Carlsbad, and I’m not sure how much further this market will slide.

Thanks!

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 21:58:28

So far as I can tell, it’s an epic battle between Mr Market and the interventionists who are still in the denial phase of the housing bubble stages of grief. I believe the interventionists are trying mightily to keep plenty of lipstick painted on the pig for as long as possible in the hope that the housing market will somehow start inflating again like it did between 1997-2005 (by the most amount ever in the history of the planet, BTW), and everything will soon be “back to normal.” But if this downturn is like the one of the early 1990s (roughly 1990-1996) or worse, then we are maybe in the third inning by now with six or more to go, and the Padres are already losing 6-0.

The next really big shoe to drop on the San Diego market is the massive, long-period tsunami wave of Alt-A and prime option ARM resets/recasts, scheduled to continue at a high rate from roughly the present through 2011. Many who bought homes they cannot afford will soon find their payments jump to levels they cannot pay, at which point they will have to hope that foreclosure moratoria enable them to live rent free (implicitly at the expense of everyone else) for an indefinite period of time. At any rate, I expect the high end to keep sinking through at least 2011 and to crush the price of all homes of comparably less quality, as everyone wants to live out near the ocean if they can afford to do so.

Got Cracker Jacks?

 
 
 
 
Comment by bink
2009-06-15 06:18:13

Have we ever before had the collapse in high-end home prices that many of us anticipate without a general economic/cultural shift that displaced large numbers of wealthy people?

You can say areas like Buffalo, Detroit, Pittsburgh suffered a collapse on the high-end. But those areas took decades to degrade.

I only ask because I’m still trying to figure out how this will play out. Here inside the beltway the expensive homes just languish for many moons with the occasional sale giving false hope. The neighborhood in which I rent still sees infrequent rehabs, with $600k homes being turned into $1.5 million listings, which then sit on the market for months with slow adjustments in price.

Comment by jbunniii
2009-06-15 06:39:26

Have we ever before had the collapse in high-end home prices that many of us anticipate without a general economic/cultural shift that displaced large numbers of wealthy people?

No, but never before have so many people who aren’t actually wealthy been able to buy high-end houses. When the Alt-A and Option ARMs start recasting in earnest (the biggest wave will be 2010 through early 2012), we’ll see how many of these jokers manage to hang on.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 07:38:54

I’m waiting with baited breath.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by drumminj
2009-06-15 08:08:51

I’m waiting with baited breath.

What are you trying to catch?

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-06-15 08:11:05

ewwww

 
 
 
Comment by shelby
2009-06-15 06:53:33

NoVa’s High -end (over 700K Jumbo) is starting to get the smack down now.

Interest rates going up won’t help them either.

Loudoun Co (the FASTEST GROWING CO in the WORLD…!!)
had 16 Months supply of McMansions on the resale market > 700K.

Some clown Sellers have been on the Market for more than a year…guess they have plenty of money and aren’t going to “give it away” !

Comment by bink
2009-06-15 10:10:52

I agree with you about the outer suburbs like Loudon and Prince William. There’s no doubt they began correcting a long time ago. What I’m more focused on is the historically richer areas inside the beltway and close-by. These areas appreciated significantly just like the outer suburbs, but have yet to correct anywhere near the same amount.

This all sounds rather obvious, of course. Richer people can afford to hang on longer and all that. I’m just trying to guess how this will play out.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by shelby
2009-06-15 10:46:15

Bink-
There are plenty of Blogs that take the Inner Beltway, DC, Arlington et all to the molecular level.

I have no interest in this area (and have no “dog in that fight”) since I live & work in Loudoun.

Sold my house in Fairfax Co. in ‘06 and waiting for further crash & burn in Loudoun/PWC.

 
Comment by 20910
2009-06-15 11:32:54

Me too, bink, since that’s where we will eventually buy.

Shelby — which blogs take inside DC beltway hoods to the molecular level? I only know about NOVA Housing Bubble, but don’t know any about Maryland/MoCo.

Anecdotally: I was talking to my MIL who bought in Bethesda 10 years ago, maybe 13 years ago. During the boom, her house “value” more than doubled. While prices have come down, she could still probably get 2X what she paid for it, she is swimming in equity. She’s not rich by any stretch, but she’s “house rich.” Of course she never pulled one single cent out and her idea of refinancing was to go back to the bank and write a check to pay down the mortgage some more.

 
Comment by bink
2009-06-15 12:18:35

shelby,

I’m not so much concerned with finding out what’s happening right now.. that much I can see for myself. What I’m wondering about is what will happen in the next 1-5 years.

 
Comment by diplomatbob
2009-06-15 16:34:43

Shelby–any links to blogs in Arlington/DC/inner beltway would be appreciated. We are looking…in about 3 years.

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-06-15 19:45:31

“Of course she never pulled one single cent out and her idea of refinancing was to go back to the bank and write a check to pay down the mortgage some more.”

HBBer and didn’t even know it?

 
 
 
 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-06-15 06:53:32

I also have an interest in Laguna Niguel.

There seems to be a ridge that you need to stay below and on the ocean side in order to avoid the heat. My sister’s friend lives below the ridge. Her mom lived in a house just on the other side. The temperature difference was noticeable.

My solution would be to get an ocean view place. Then I know it would get the cooler air.

Comment by John
2009-06-15 18:51:10

I’m currently a renter in laguna niguel. Yes it probably is true that it is cooler near the ocean however I have been here a year now and the weather is always beautifull. I live off of golden lantern and st. christopher.

 
 
Comment by octal77
2009-06-15 08:38:14


…standoff now between buyers and sellers..

Almost a ditto for Irvine and Corona Del Mar.

For sure, asking prices *have* moved southward a bit
year/year, but not much more than 5%-10%.

Exception: Some really pricy areas such as
Shady Canyon. Movements downward >> 15%
are not unusual. Most homes now on sale were
built on spec which I believe accounts for
so much water in the initial wishing prices.

Its going to be great fun to see who blinks first.

Betcha’ it *isn’t* going to be the buyer. <;))

Comment by dude
2009-06-16 04:26:32

Dead men don’t blink.

 
 
Comment by Rental Watch
2009-06-15 11:51:43

In northern CA, I am seeing more and more rentals in good areas where at the bottom of the page is “we are willing to sell too”.

Unintentional landlords everywhere. How long can they hold on to a $10k mortgage while only collecting $4k in rent?

Comment by jbunniii
2009-06-15 12:09:16

The first thing I check when considering a rental house is whether the owner also has the house up for sale. In Silicon Valley it seems that at least 25% of the landlords of single-family houses will sell in a heartbeat if only a buyer will emerge.

I immediately disregard these listings as I have no desire to have my rental house sold from under me. Even if a 12-month lease ensures that I won’t have to move until the end of the contract, I want any decision to move to be my own, not someone else’s.

Comment by Rental Watch
2009-06-15 12:33:25

I’m looking to upgrade and I’ve inquired twice already with the same answer (that a longer lease isn’t possible).

My precondition for even walking through the house is that they must be willing to sign a 2-year lease with 2 1-year options.

I figure 4-years is a long time. It’s hard to give up my current situation, where I have an intentional landlord and have been living in the home for 5 years now.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by jbunniii
2009-06-15 16:27:54

I won’t sign a 2-year lease because I think rents will be lower a year from now and I don’t want to be stuck paying this year’s rent. But an option to renew is a great thing to have.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by sean
Comment by DennisN
2009-06-15 08:50:13

Sean I don’t see any graph there.

Do they have to change the name now from “Bull Run” to “Bear Run”?

Comment by bink
Comment by DennisN
2009-06-15 16:24:34

Bink, your link finked out too. :(

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 06:22:20

So here’s a question - given that mortgage rates have skyrocketed (relatively speaking of course) the last couple of weeks - why hasn’t the stock market been crashing? Even moderately high mortgage rates are going to *kill* any semblance of housing recovery, and by extension economic recovery.

Comment by arizonadude
2009-06-15 06:30:34

So 6% is skyrocketing.Rates are still very low folks.Anthing under 7% in my mind is sweet.

Comment by skroodle
2009-06-15 06:36:10

6% will seem low when interest rates his 20%.

Comment by exeter
2009-06-15 06:45:32

20%? A savers dream date. We can’t get there fast enough for me.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by patient renter
2009-06-15 16:37:26

Seriously - Screw buying, I can just pay my rent off of savings interest if that ever happens :)

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 06:53:21

Why do you think rates will go that high? To my recollection, the Fed Funds rate topped out around 16 pct in the early 1980s episode, and the l-t T-bond yield topped out at maybe 14 pct. Perhaps the prime rate did touch on the 20 pct level, but I don’t think mortgage rates ever approached 20 pct.

Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DinOR
2009-06-15 07:18:41

PB,

I would have been in HS at the time but I believe the worst I’d heard of were 16-17%. You do have to wonder though if rates at those levels accelerated the rust belt’s demise as kids that normally would have “bloomed where they were planted” were somewhat forced to consider other alternatives?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 07:23:16

After a huge runup in stock prices, the PPT appears to have a ready means of keeping the lid on l-t T-bond yields: Let ‘er rip in a short term stock market correction, and stimulate a flight-to-quality move into the dollar and govt bonds.

The NY-area manufacturing report calls the green shoots theory into severe question. But the bright side of the picture is that dying green shoots are good for keeping T-bond yields (and mortgage rates) low.

Jun 15, 2009, 9:40 a.m. EST
US Stocks Fall Sharply In Early Trading
By MarketWatch

U.S. stocks dropped on Monday after a discouraging report on New York-area manufacturing and a decline in commodities prices.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average was down 120 points. The S&P 500 sank 1.4% amid losses of roughly 2% for its basic materials, energy and industrial sectors. The Nasdaq Composite Index sank 1.5%.

The Federal Reserve Bank of New York’s Empire State Manufacturing Survey declined to -9.41 from -4.55 in May as new orders remained weak and a gauge of shipments declined sharply. More than half of the survey’s respondents said that they had pared capital spending this year.

The New York-area data are seen as an important precursor to national reports, and shares of many large manufacturers were lower in recent trade. Caterpillar sank by more than 2.5%, Deere was down 2.6% and General Electric shares fell 1.9%.

Stock markets were also weighed down by a fall in commodities prices brought on by strengthening in the dollar. The dollar rose against the euro after Russian Finance Minister Alexei Kudrin said that his country has confidence in the U.S. currency and the dollar’s role as the primary global reserve currency is unlikely to change.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-06-15 07:33:08

“The NY-area manufacturing report”

What a load of BS….. What manufacturing in the NY-area? CT foundries and machine shops? They’re all boarded up. Gone. Kaput.

I regret to inform the those who publish this toilet paper that manufacturing left the northeast decades ago. No papermaking, no textile plants (Gloversville/Amsterdam, NY) no foundries, no machine shops, no assembly plants….. they left beginning in 1980

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 07:34:05

+1 to DinOR for remembering the peak 30-yr mortgage rate correctly. I note that if the current episode plays out like the one from 1960-1980 did, then it might take a couple of decades for interest rates to return to those levels again, with a long, slow, painful rise over the period.

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 07:39:26

Fed rate peaked at 19.93%
30-year mortgage peaked at 18.45%

per St. Louie fed data

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 07:52:32

I remember with glee getting a 30 mtg.(my first) in 1984 for 10.75% we felt good about it. I knew some folks with rates over 15%. Imagine that today!

The gubmint is/was trying to ‘hold’ the mgt.rate under five for the next few years from what I’ve read.

 
Comment by Skip
2009-06-15 08:07:19

Don’t forget that inflation was also very high in the late 70’s and early 80’s. The buy now or be priced out was less a marketing ploy than a reality for those on fixed incomes:

1979 11.3%
1980 13.5
1981 10.3

 
Comment by realestateskeptic
2009-06-15 08:10:47

Ex, No beef with your assessment, I lived in a town decimated by paper mill closings. However, it does appear the long awaited AMD plant is really going to happen despite the skepticism about it which you had and which I shared. It won’t be a savior to all, but certainly will help the economy in these parts and is a massive undertaking as far as jobs and $$ is concerned.

After 3 years, Malta chip-fab wait is nearly over
GlobalFoundries says factory groundbreaking will begin on Monday

By LARRY RULISON, Business writer
First published in print: Wednesday, June 10, 2009

ALBANY — The wait is over.

GlobalFoundries Inc. said Tuesday morning that earth movers will begin arriving at Luther Forest Technology Campus in Malta on Monday to begin work on its $4.2 billion computer chip factory.

The Capital Region has been waiting three years for the announcement, which sets in motion a likely two-year construction boom for Saratoga County.

M+W Zander, the general contractor for the project, is set to reveal today the first of more than 100 contracts that will be awarded, most at guaranteed union wages.

The 1.3 million-square-foot building will cost $800 million and require 1,600 laborers. The factory is expected to become fully operational by 2012 and employ up to 1,400 people at full capacity.

On Tuesday afternoon, Doug Grose, the chief executive officer of GlobalFoundries, attended an economic forum hosted by Gov. David Paterson at the University at Albany’s College of Nanoscale Science and Engineering.

The meeting, which included 20 local business leaders, was well-timed. It was nearly three years ago that former Gov. George Pataki announced in the same NanoCollege building that the state was providing $1.2 billion in incentives to land the chip fab.

Back then, the project was envisioned by Advanced Micro Devices Inc. AMD has since spun off its manufacturing operations to GlobalFoundries.

“Thank you, thank you, thank you,” NanoCollege CEO Alain Kaloyeros told Grose at the beginning of the forum.

“Today it’s exciting for us,” Grose said. “But what brings us here is people.”

GlobalFoundries sealed its fate with the state by sending an official commitment letter to Empire State Development Corp. on Tuesday that will make it eligible for $650 million in grant money. The company was facing a July 31 deadline.

Now ESDC has 90 days to issue bonds or come up with the cash so it can begin reimbursing GlobalFoundries as it incurs its costs for the chip fab.

GlobalFoundries spokesman Travis Bullard said the company has already spent between $10 million and $15 million on design and project work.

“We are still working on the timeline for exact disbursement,” said ESDC spokeswoman Katie Krawczyk.

GlobalFoundries and Luther Forest Technology Campus Economic Development Corp. are scheduled to close today in Malta on the purchase of 223 acres at the business park, an old logging forest that was also used for rocket testing by the military.

Rick Whitney, the CEO of M+W Zander’s U.S. operations, was also at Tuesday’s economic forum. After the meeting, he declined to reveal the name of the company being awarded the first contract to begin clearing land at the GlobalFoundries site. The contract will be worth between $10 million and $20 million.

 
Comment by robiscrazy
2009-06-15 08:38:50

Why does GlobalFoundries need a $650m grant?

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-06-15 08:58:59

When I bought my San Jose house in 1981 the mortgage rates were around 14% IIRC. I jumped at the chance to assume the seller’s 9% mortgage for around 60% of the purchase price which was a heck of a deal at the time. Then I had a 17% second for 20% of the purchase price, which truly was an albatross around my neck for a decade (I put 20% down).

Mortgages stopped being assumable in California soon after that time.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-06-15 09:17:31

All financed by the property owners of NY state and in particular, Saratoga and surrounding counties. Don’t believe me? I just talked to a deluded house debtor in Ballston Spa. His yearly tax bill? $13,000. That’s right. $13k in Ballston Spa. Hundreds of miles to NYC, Philly, Boston or the like.

So what does it all add up to Skeptic? I’ll tell you what…. more speculative delusion from my friends and family that live near Luther Forest. 250,000 high paying manufacturing jobs have been lost over the last 30 years in the upper hudson valley and east to Rutland, VT. So tell me…. what does the proposed 1200 jobs add up to? I’ll tell you.

>Raindrops in the desert my friend.<

And you want to know what else? I’ll wager the place doesn’t get built to the full size shown on the drawings AND that it will never see full employment(1200 $15/hr jobs).

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-06-15 09:49:47

“Mortgages stopped being assumable in California soon after that time.”

That’s the “best” part of the story.

 
Comment by az_lender
2009-06-15 12:27:33

“stocks fall sharply”

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Some of you will recall my debating with myself last week about buying a few-months’ put on the Dow. Immediately following reading a rant by NYCBoy, I bought that put, paying $810 for a piece of paper whose future value is as follows:

$1000 if DJIA=7400 in late August
$2000 if DJIA=7300 in late August
$3000 if DJIA=7200 in late August
$4000 if DJIA=7100 in late August
[and so forth]

The actual desideratum is that the Dow fall sharply NOW, so that someone will take the put out of my hands for $2000 or $3000. I haven’t received the ticket yet but I think my purchase date was the 11th.

Muggy, wish me luck.

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-06-15 13:28:46

Let it ride, AZ!

 
Comment by BanteringBear
2009-06-15 15:16:28

I didn’t believe the DOW had bottomed back when it was 6600 or whatever, but now I’m wondering if it has. The reason being- there seems to be an extraordinary amount of dumb money either buying into the market, or hanging around on the sidelines, ready to jump in. A lot of it has nowhere else to go. The sheer volume of global investors in addition to crooked Wall St. firms, aided by a government hell bent on propping up these financial giants, leads me to believe that, regardless of how bad the economy truly is, the stock market is poised to weather any storm. I think I’d do better taking $800 to a casino and playing single deck blackjack.

 
Comment by Watching the Carnage
2009-06-15 15:24:28

AZ,

What is the downside risk if the DOW goes up? I’m still sitting on a bunch of DXD that I bought as the DOW eclipsed 8,000 and I was sure it would go down.

What are the upside/downside risks and benefits with buying puts rather than a loaded EFT?

Just trying to learn this stuff…not sure why as it feels alot like gambling which I don,t like much either.

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-06-15 16:50:44

Too much thought, let it ride!!

 
2009-06-15 19:11:21

bantering bear,

watch the bond market.

rates get too high, and we’re screwed. so, watch for the FED to drain liquidity to orchestrate a downdraft in the stock market to feed the us govt alligator….

people get scared of stocks again and scurry into treasuries…or at least they hope!

 
Comment by az_lender
2009-06-15 19:15:18

Watching the Carnage:

“What is the downside risk if the Dow goes up?”

Just the $810, period. I’m not short, I just paid a premium for the time value of the out-of-the-money put. It’s very LIKELY that the Dow will be 7500 or above in late August, and the put will be worth zero. That’s why, despite Muggy’s encouragement, I probably won’t let it ride if I have a chance to make double my $$ fast.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 22:02:54

“…people get scared of stocks again and scurry into treasuries…or at least they hope!”

That’s exactly what I think is up! In fact, I view the whole ‘green shoots’ meme as a ploy for the Fed to buy themselves a lid on l-t T-bond yields without having to run the printing press for the purchase. So long as the economic data keeps coming out ‘worse than expected,’ subsequent flight-to-quality moves into the dollar and l-t T-bonds are a given.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 07:32:15

Here is some data from the FRED (Federal Reserve Economic Data) web site. As I suggested, the all-time high 30-yr mortgage rate was below 20 pct; in fact, it was 16.35 pct in April 1980. I am guessing that housing was lots more affordable over the ensuing several years than it is currently, at least for anyone who was employed.

Title: 30-Year Conventional Mortgage Rate (DISCONTINUED SERIES)
Series ID: WMORTG
Source: Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System
Release: H.15 Selected Interest Rates
Seasonal Adjustment: Not Applicable
Frequency: Weekly, Ending Friday
Units: Percent
Date Range: 1971-04-02 to 2004-01-02
Last Updated: 2006-07-27 2:51 PM CDT
Notes: Average Contract Rate on Commitments for Fixed-Rate First Mortgages.
**DISCONTINUED** - Please refer to the series WRMORTG for current
data. Copyright, 2008, Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation.
Reprinted with permission.

1980-03-07 14.00
1980-03-14 15.40
1980-03-21 15.70
1980-03-28 16.03
1980-04-04 16.35
1980-04-11 16.35
1980-04-18 16.35
1980-04-25 16.25
1980-05-02 15.90
1980-05-09 14.68
1980-05-16 14.15

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 08:32:12

You’re one year off - the peak was 1981:

1981-06-01 16.70
1981-07-01 16.83
1981-08-01 17.29
1981-09-01 18.16
1981-10-01 18.45
1981-11-01 17.83
1981-12-01 16.92
1982-01-01 17.40
1982-02-01 17.60

 
Comment by James
2009-06-15 08:42:07

If we remain in a deflationary cycle, which is likely, then I expect rates to remain low for a long time.

I’m assuming the economic distortions from the stimulus package make things worse grounding down productive activity with high taxes.

In the face of massive defaults and debt destruction, we are expecting high rates?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 09:30:30

Packman — Good catch, and sorry my eye missed that. It looked like rates had peaked in April 1980, but that turned out to be a dead-cat spike.

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 09:39:49

dead-cat spike.

LOL

 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 07:54:28

Bear…I was in the thick of it at the time…Lost my a$$ but was able to survive and finally recover…Prime rate hit 18% as I recall. Mortgage rates were between 12-13%, underwriting was very tight and it was difficult to get better than 60% loan to value…Lots of deals were made with blended 1st and seller carry-back 2nd mortgages…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DinOR
2009-06-15 08:24:34

scdave,

Right, and while it’s possible that data shows rates may have actually gone higher, I was simply recalling anecdotal info that after a certain point, people just stopped even considering getting a mortgage?

It was a time when young couples got married ( and then moved into the folk’s basement! ) LOL!

 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-06-15 09:44:15

Certainly not many people were getting standard, amortizing 30 year fixed mortgages at that rate. Baloon payments and ARM etc were fairly common.

 
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-06-15 08:00:46

In 1983, our first home was purchased with an ARM at 17.5% (Volcker days). We were young and foolish, but as the ARM adjusted down, it got easier.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 08:18:45

You say you were young and foolise, but I would buy with an ARM if rates topped out over 16 pct. You always have the option to refi if rates fall, and it is hard for rates to stay above 16 percent forever, as green shoots tend to shrivel up and die very quickly at that kind of crushingly high interest rate level.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2009-06-15 12:43:39

Depends on your pain threshold. I agree PB, if you can withstand rates going to 25-30% pretty easily. But if you start having problems making ends meet at 20%, then buying on an ARM at 16% could be playing with fire.

You still get the benefit of rates falling if you buy with a fixed rate mortgage, you just don’t take as much interest rate risk (for which you pay a higher rate for certain).

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 12:49:00

“But if you start having problems making ends meet at 20%, then buying on an ARM at 16% could be playing with fire.”

Why would you guess rates would go to a higher level than the highest ever level in history (at least so far as I know)? It seems rather like predicting the earth will be struck by a giant asteroid some day soon. You should realize that high rates tend to be self-extinguishing, as the economic devastation that results when rates go that high is highly deflationary and reduces demand for credit. Lower credit demand reduces the equilibrium price of credit (aka interest rates).

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 13:15:44

The other thing to consider, which I have already mentioned elsewhere today, is the pace of l-t interest rate adjustment. If you enjoy worrying about rates spiking above 20%, then tell me when you think they will reach that level, and also give an example from any country anywhere else in the world when rates went up from their current level (6 pct?) to 20 pct over a comparable time period, and then maybe I will start worrying along with you. I note again that it took rates 20 years to gradually gyrate upwards from their levels in 1960 (comparable to current) to their peak levels of 1980-1982. If the Fed is good at anything, it is at parceling out pain very gradually.

 
Comment by jim a
2009-06-15 15:38:38

PB when they’re high it isn’t easy at all to imagine that they’re going to go even higher. And of course the uncertainty tends to drive them higher.

 
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 07:36:16

So 6% is skyrocketing.Rates are still very low folks.Anthing (sic) under 7% in my mind is sweet.

4.9% -> 6% in a matter of just 3 weeks or so yes is skyrocketing. And yes I realize that 6% is still historically low. The key though is that the rates need to be down at 5% or so for any kind of housing market bottom, because that’s where the rates have been recently, and where they need to be for ARM resets to not totally swamp the vast majority of their users.

If rates continue up, or even if they stay near 6% - look for a new and unexpected (even by us HBBers) wave of foreclosures IMO (despite CA’s stupid moratorium).

Comment by exeter
2009-06-15 07:41:23

The 10 year yield is down to 3.71%. I thought there was hope when it his 4.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 12:46:44

Don’t forget, the Fed can buy down those yields whenever it sees fit to do so.

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 13:13:35

Don’t forget, the Fed can buy down those yields whenever it sees fit to do so.

Logistically and legally (per se) yes. Politically though it’s going to become a really, really big problem if it becomes a habit. The whispers of inflation have become screams lately.

This week will be interesting, with PPI and CPI numbers coming out. If the numbers are low, it wouldn’t surprise me to see the Fed announcing another round lickety-split. Otherwise if the numbers are high - whoo-boy.

(Yeah I know the numbers are manipulated, subjective, whatever - they are still headline numbers that affect policy, as driven by media attention. That being the case I fully expect them to be quite low.)

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 14:23:39

“The whispers of inflation have become screams lately.”

As long as unemployment remains high and the economy is puttering along on major life support, inflation seems a distant prospect. Once recovery is on the way, unemployment on the way down and inflation ramping up “faster than expected,” the Fed can say “noone could have seen this coming.”

 
 
Comment by cougar91
2009-06-15 08:16:54

>The key though is that the rates need to be down at 5% or so for any kind of housing market bottom

Hmmm, is it more likely for the housing bottom to occur at 5% mortgage rate or at 18%? Very debatable.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 08:26:39

I think Japan provides some good insight. So far as I know, they had an ongoing period of super-low interest rates coupled with an ongoing housing crash over the period from 1989-2009 or so. Please correct me if anyone finds hard evidence that I am off base here.

 
Comment by cougar91
2009-06-15 08:47:41

But as I pointed out before, Japan has had declining population for a very long time with zero immigration so I don’t see how Japanese RE is ever a good long-term + their market peak was several times more bubbly than the US housing market peak so I don’t want to make this comparison between Japan and US like apple-to-apple, clearly it is not.

My question is more philosophical: is low interest rate more likely to induce a sustainable housing market bottom or high interest rate is? I say high interest is. Once high interest rate kicks in, the only people who can buy are people with lots of cash and needs little financing while low interest rate induces people who are on the margin into buying and many who shouldn’t have bought in the first place, which is not sustainable.

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 09:05:51

I think we’re arguing semantics here. Higher rates will definitely cause lower prices - whether or not that induces a bottom is a matter of timing though. Higher rates right now would cause prices to plummet faster - no? Yes that might “induce” a bottom by getting us there faster, but that assumes that there is a set bottom point. IMO there is not a set bottom point - instead the bottom point is, in part at least, determined by interest rates.

Either way - whether rates are kept low or whether they rise - we will have a bottom; eventually prices will start to rise again. The difference is what the bottom looks like, and perhaps when it occurs.

Take these two scenarions:

A. If rates are kept low for say 10 years, prices will bottom and start to rise probably 2-4 years from now due to inflation - then if rates are raised slowly, say from years 10-20 it will cause a decrease in the rate of price rise, but may not actually cause a new bottom, at least in nominal terms.

B. If rates go up high now, prices will fall further - they may still bottom in 2-4 years but at a lower value. Then later when prices rise, they would rise faster relative to scenario A, since they hit a deeper bottom.

At the end of year 20 prices for the two scenarios would probably be roughly equal. Scenario A has a shallower bottom though, and thus less foreclosures since there would be less people underwater. However the flip side of the coin is that after 20 years there’s more debt outstanding under scenario A than scenario B.

Personally I’m rooting for B (and in fact have put my money where my mouth is, buying TBT), but I’m just saying that B will serve to deepen the downturn (which I see as a good thing).

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 10:15:04

“I say high interest is.”

I agree, but given the time period it took interest rates to get from where they were in 1960 (roughly in line with today’s rates) to the 18 pct plus level was over twenty years, I may just turn out to rent for the rest of my days on the planet. I am willing to do this if the market goes into long term stagnation instead of near term capitulation.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2009-06-15 12:50:19

I think that the bottom is the time when supply/demand dynamics are most out of whack. Today, we have very poor demand due to psychological factors, and the tail end of the supply from the bubble. We are approaching the bottom now in markets with the supply.

In those markets, it is cheaper to own than it is to rent at the current prices and rates. If we get to 16% interest rates, there is likely inflation coming along with it, so in terms of the rent vs. own analysis, it could still make sense to own–lock in your price and payment, as opposed to having your rent raised by 10% every year.

However, in markets without a lot of supply (think SF Bay Area on the Peninsula), higher rates will crush anyone with an ARM, hastening the fall in prices. The higher rates will cause the bottom to arrive faster in those markets.

Just my opinion, but I think a lot of the fall in housing prices in the former locations is psychological, not financial, where the fall in housing prices in higher priced, lower supplied areas is more on the financial side than psychological.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 13:19:18

“I think that the bottom is the time when supply/demand dynamics are most out of whack.”

I humbly beg to differ. The bottom in CA during the last bust was in 1996, at which time we had a very hard time deciding whether to rent or buy, because there was little fundamental difference between the two alternatives. Right now, with home prices falling near the fastest rate in history and still not penciling out as rentals, the choice is a no-brainer. Further, if you take latent supply (shadow inventory, future foreclosures held in suspended animation by foreclosure moratoria, etc) into consideration, then you can see supply and demand are highly out of whack currently.

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 13:28:33

I mostly disagree. Don’t buy the “all real estate is local” mantra. For a significant portion of the population it’s not that hard to pick up and move - either just doing a longer commute or else changing jobs, or even working from home.

So if supply gets low in a given area, and prices flatten, but in another area prices continue to fall - there will eventually be a migration from people in the former area, to people in the latter, all other things being equal.

Obviously over time there are other factors - job markets (dying in the rust belt, growing around DC/NY, etc.), technology (Silicon valley growth, Florida growth due to air conditioning), and others (TX due to oil, etc.) - but in general these factors are multi-decade factors; larger in scale than 2-3 year home price trends.

Thus places that had prices that grew the farthest - NV, CA, AZ, FL, etc, will come back down to their previous levels, and places that are late in popping - Seattle, NY, etc. - will eventually succumb as well (and are).

They key thing though will be that prices in places that were grossly overbuilt - FL, CA, etc. - will end up being quite a bit *below* pre-bubble levels because of the overbuild. This will end up drawing people *away* from areas that had no bubbles, and will subsequently pull their prices down too.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Lucy
2009-06-15 07:16:42

Maybe the stock market is refusing to fall because it is anticipating future inflation.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 07:24:35

What are you talking about? From MarketWatch:

Investor Alert
Stocks off sharply as commodities slump

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 07:42:51

Drop of 150 isn’t much - until it goes below 7k again, or even back to its fundamental value around 3-5k or so IMO it’s still defying gravity, with its support method being inflation anticipation.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 07:44:24

Inflation anticipation will provide a strong support for the stock market from here on out, IMHO, but that doesn’t mean that volatility is dead…

 
Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 08:05:01

Inflation anticipation will provide a strong support ??

What about earnings ??

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 08:19:53

“What about earnings ??”

I suspect earnings will bottom out some time over the next five years, maybe sooner on nominal terms. Where do you think they are headed?

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 08:35:57

“What about earnings ??”

I suspect earnings will bottom out some time over the next five years, maybe sooner on nominal terms. Where do you think they are headed?

Yes earnings will bottom at some point - and keep in mind that they are still positive, and most likely will remain so, or if they do dip negative will probably go back positive at some point, barring mad max. Thus (to scdave) - eventually nominal earnings will increase with inflation, even if real earnings are flat or even decreasing, relative to things like GDP.

 
Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 08:58:39

Where do you think they are headed ??

Down…1970’s stagflation ??

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 09:21:54

Earnings were actually very high in the 1970’s stagflation period, and the early 80’s inflation period:

1970 5.98%
1971 5.46%
1972 5.23%
1973 8.16%
1974 13.64%
1975 8.55%
1976 9.07%
1977 11.43%
1978 12.11%
1979 13.48%
1980 11.04%
1981 12.39%
1982 9.83%
1983 8.06%
1984 10.07%
1985 7.42%
1986 5.96%

Likewise for dividend yields.

A common misconception.

 
Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 09:50:51

Packman…What do these percentages represent ??

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 10:36:35

Packman…What do these percentages represent ??

I’m not an accountant, but I believe that’s the profit divided by the revenue, i.e. the ‘E’ in P/E.

You can google to find various historical data. Typically (e.g. the last 25 years) it’s in the 3-7% range.

 
Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 12:05:57

So is it like the S & P or the DOW earnings were up 12.39% in 1981 ?? I just find that hard to believe given the economic climate in 1981…

 
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-06-15 12:17:10

Uh, P/E stands for price over earnings, not profit over revenue. And you really should give us a link, instead of telling us to Google, if you’re going to post a bunch of precise #’s. This was obviously copy/pasted from somewhere.

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 15:03:42

Uh, P/E stands for price over earnings, not profit over revenue. And you really should give us a link, instead of telling us to Google, if you’re going to post a bunch of precise #’s. This was obviously copy/pasted from somewhere.

I know that. E though is profit over revenue - I was just stating that I think the “Earnings” in the S&P numbers is the same “Earnings” as people refer to in corporate reports and such, and is applied to P/E.

I’ll post a link, but they’re dang slow to show up. There are multiple places the same data is posted though - they all reference “Standard and Poors”, but I don’t have a direct link to Standard and Poors - I don’t see it on their website at least.

link

(Like I say there are others in various places, though I don’t have a direct link to the S&P source)

 
 
 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-06-15 09:28:53

Printing trillions of dollars via quantitative easing, buying Treasuries, etc. can prop up the market. That, and the stupid “green shoots” meme that has spread throughout the land that “all is well!”

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 10:16:45

I view the “green shoots” meme as a ploy to distract attention from the fact that the economy is in the critical care ward and still on life support.

Comment by BanteringBear
2009-06-15 17:31:46

The patient just suffered a setback…

“Monday’s data highlighted the unripe nature of the “green shoots” of recovery in the manufacturing and housing sectors. Factory activity in the New York area continued to decline in June - falling at a modestly faster pace than it had in May, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York’s Empire Manufacturing Survey.”

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 22:07:53

That’s part of the plan, IMO. Whenever the data turns out “worse than expected,” the Fed gets a free pass on the need to buy down l-t T-bond rates by quantitative easing, as the flight-to-quality move into the dollar & T-bonds does the work.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by skroodle
2009-06-15 06:24:39

NYT has an interesting article on the infamous Yellowstone Club bankruptcy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/business/14yellow.html

Among properties he bought for what he imagined as a sort of megaluxe timeshare were these: a $28 million, 14th-century chateau (complete with moat) outside Paris, a $40 million Mexican resort, a $28 million private island in the Caribbean, and a $40 million site in Scotland that was to house a golf retreat (down payment: $12 million). Court documents show that the Blixseths also pocketed $209 million in cash, as well, which they channeled into their family holding company.

 
Comment by FP
2009-06-15 06:29:55

California today imposed a 90-day moratorium on foreclosures. The state has the nation’s second-highest foreclosure rate.

The development is good news for those running into a stone wall at the bank despite the Obama administration’s plan to help homeowners rewrite their mortgages. CBS News correspondent Bill Whitaker heard one family’s story.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/14/national/main5088036.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_5088036

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 10:04:00

So is the thinking that if 90-day foreclosure moratoria are extended often enough and for a sufficiently long duration, then either the market will come back or else a bailout can be crafted that collectively rescues all these underwater loanowners?

Comment by FP
2009-06-15 17:56:07

“bailout can be crafted that collectively rescues all these underwater loanowners”

That’s scary. I can confidently say that the majority of these homeowners can’t really pay any type of mortgage payment. I know a few people with this situation. They are holding for dear life. actually, they can barely afford 50% of the actual mortgage payment. And if they did get a huge break, they’ll still live miserably because they won’t be able to spend anything else.

It would be awesome if I own a home again. But it is not going to be soon. I’m the “customer” that the government should be targeting. I have the funds, the job, the spending habit but right now they are shafting me on these bailouts that extend these high home prices for a few more years.

Comment by az_lender
2009-06-15 19:45:51

+1 !!!!!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 22:09:38

“I can confidently say that the majority of these homeowners can’t really pay any type of mortgage payment.”

But isn’t that precisely why they are so very bailout worthy? This is the essential nature of bailouts: Anyone prudent enough to have purchased a house within their means is screwed; only those who made foolish financial decisions are rewarded.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 22:38:37

As long as enough qualified buyers stay awake and avoid catching themselves falling knives, the housing market will eventually revert to fundamental pricing and anyone left standing will have a nice selection of affordable homes from which to choose. The government obviously is hoping this does not happen, as they are making all manner of behind-the-scenes attempts to reflate the bubble.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-06-15 11:18:05

Bank X owns loans for 50,000 homes. Under which scenario do you think the bank’s balance sheet looks the best?

a) Roughly estimate value of each property based on a combo of comps from last year, fudging a bit, give or take a few $10,000 here and there.

b) Foreclose/short sell and realize the loss on the books in black and white, which explicitly states the value and bank loss on those loans. All fudge opportunity lost forever.

Answer of course is “a”. Banks have plenty of operating cash, thanks to US Gov. Bank’s real problem is showing FDIC and all that they are a solvent entity that should/can remain in business. Answer “a” provides these banks with an easy route to fudging solvency and a healthy balance sheet, answer “b” would likely show the opposite.

So the moratorium and a do-nothing policy is exactly what the banks want and need to maintain a respectable balance sheet. As article states, any mods have been short term, which again, allows banks to maintain (fudge) healthy assets value on the books long term.

But the banks will just take an even larger hit when these properties eventually go to foreclosure/short next year or next 18 months? Nobody cares/thinks about next year. Many managers/execs will have moved on by then, mergers will occur, this and that. It’s all about what is happening today and today’s balance sheet. I guess we could say banks are practicing the age old metaphysical teaching of “Living in the Now” . Maybe a worthwhile concept when applied to individual and personal lives, but not so great when applied to business strategies and policy?

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 12:42:43

“So the moratorium and a do-nothing policy is exactly what the banks want and need to maintain a respectable balance sheet.”

Exactly. In fact, in so many words, I explained this very point to a colleague just yesterday.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 12:43:47

Yeesh. I wish I could do that in my line of work. But, alas, I have to keep doing this thing called selling. And it’s really ha-a-a-ard. I want a bailout, dadgummit!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 12:44:15

The same explanation works quite well for the case of banks withholding and hiding shadow inventory from the market. And both foreclosure moratoria and withholding of shadow inventory have the further benefit of artificially reducing supply and propping up transaction prices above the true market equilibrium level sans manipulation.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-06-15 13:22:02

yes!

 
 
Comment by james
2009-06-15 14:48:58

When we talked about this years ago, we pondered if the rate of forclosure would slow because banks didn’t want to realize the losses.

Much like Japan, sitting on bad loans and having people make token payments.

I could see the same thing happening over and over.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by az_lender
2009-06-15 19:50:54

And (I’m a infinitely repeating loop on this) slowing down the price declines keeps those who ARE paying their mortgages from getting wise and walking away. Actually my business depends very strongly on this precept. If I had a default on my hands right now (I don’t), especially if it were in my principal business area (Pinal County mobile homes), I would probably try to do the workout.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by rusty
2009-06-15 06:31:25

Saw a ‘turnkey’ house that had just sold, while walking in a neighborhood here in Tampa. We took a stroll through the yard, the house was amazing with a professional looking sports bar feeling wet bar installed by the pool. No expense was spared on that house, and the place sold for 290. The guy next door was sick, as he had paid 70k more just a year ago for his place.

We were jazzed, as I had mentally put a price of 350+ on this house. The guy had to sell quick due to a move, and did the right thing by dropping the price. Seeing the prices drop to within our range, on amazing houses like that, gives great hope!

On the other hand, we stopped at a garage sale down the street where the prices were inflated for junk. The woman admitted she had bought at the wrong time, was finishing an upgrade, and she wanted out of the house. She didn’t want to rent, so she said she’d “Let the place go, as is, for 290″ It was a dump, so I became curious.

Looked up her history, she bought in 2004 for 200k, now wants 290 in this market, and the house still needs work… Flip gone bad, she must have re-fied the house and now is stuck upside down. Zillow shows the house worth about 220 max at the moment.

Down the street some more, there is a foreclosure going to auction this week. The house needed WORK! Serious WORK. Forget that!

We did find a nice house, in a nice neighborhood that was abandoned. Tell tale foreclosure signs of a messy yard, old phone books at the door. I told the misses that would offer half what we pay in rent now to them, and the rest of the ‘rent’ would be sweat to clean the place up. Good house in a good neighborhood, just needs some love. Now we have to find the owner and ask.

Comment by pressboardbox
2009-06-15 07:17:24

What makes you think Obama will want to sell it. He appears to be an eclectic collector of abandoned houses.

Comment by rusty
2009-06-15 09:15:26

Maybe we’ll just quietly squat there. I’m all for it, but the misses is leary about that.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-06-15 11:35:37

Dude does it. I think he said for about 18 months now? Losty did it, too, for a bit. At one point there was a budding thread on how to go about squatting properly, over in the forum, with helpful hints on how to make sausages from fresh hoboes and so forth.

Anyway, if you do start squatting, I know I want to hear allllll the lurid details, kay kay okay?!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by dude
2009-06-16 04:49:53

Don’t exaggerate OG, it’s only been 8 months. That’s roughly $16K into the downpayment pile!

No NOD yet, BTW.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by skroodle
2009-06-15 06:34:24

I imagine we will be bailing out these two Detroit institutions as well.

Detroit pension trustees take flight on funds’ tab

The trustees who oversee Detroit’s two public pensions, their lawyers and staff spent $380,000 over the past year circling the globe to attend conferences — often traveling in packs, with virtually no limitation on where they went or how often they traveled.
Advertisement

Trustee Ronald Gracia spent the most time on the road — billing the General Retirement System for $105,000 in travel, including three trips to Singapore and $18,600 on travel to Hong Kong, according to records provided by the pension funds.

http://www.freep.com/article/20090614/NEWS05/906140499/

Comment by Asparagus
2009-06-15 07:38:13

Far Eastern prostitutes don’t pay for themselves! Jeez.

 
 
Comment by jbunniii
2009-06-15 06:42:52

Another 90-day foreclosure moratorium in California starts today :-(

“But supporters acknowledge the California Foreclosure Prevention Act won’t stop thousands of foreclosures from eventually happening.”

Comment by exeter
2009-06-15 07:21:43

Delay the inevitable.

Easterners will view this and with twisted logic presume that all is well and they can hold onto their fantasy gains as “there aren’t that many foreclosures outside of California and Florida”.

Yeah…. that is the popular distortion on Main Street here in the norhteast.

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-06-15 09:38:16

Yep, this is correct.

In Magical Fairytale Land (such as Maryland NoVa), there is no Housing Bubble even as starting housing costs 4x to 5x one’s income for a dump and professionals in their 30’s need to rent out the houses they “own” to other professionals just to make the mortgage. Yep, no Bubble here!

 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-06-15 07:44:22

“But supporters acknowledge the California Foreclosure Prevention Act won’t stop thousands of foreclosures from eventually happening.”

True, but then again, no amount of exercise, diet, etc. stops death, it just pushes it off into the not so distant future.

Comment by az_lender
2009-06-15 19:54:04

Thanks Colo. Think I’ll remind my doc of that the next time he bitches about my BP (which averages 125/75, nothing at all alarming).

 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2009-06-15 06:44:11

Here’s some more REIC induced puke posted on Marketwatch.

http://tinyurl.com/ltp5gz

Comment by Blano
2009-06-15 07:39:02

Same with the Detroit News. Maybe some kind of new marketing campaign has been started.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090615/BIZ01/906150359/It-s-a-great-time-to-buy-your-first-home

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-06-15 08:15:09

Yeah, but if it’s a great time to buy with the $8,000 tax credit, won’t it be an even better time to buy when the $15,000 tax credit comes to pass?

Today’s fencesitters shouldn’t play the sucker, desperate pols will be turning more water into wine soon.

Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 08:32:37

“Yeah, but if it’s a great time to buy with the $8,000 tax credit, won’t it be an even better time to buy when the $15,000 tax credit comes to pass”?

Yes, I would think so, don’t know the exact details of this new proposal, but I’ve been told it has very few restrictions. I still don’t know the mechanics of the $8000.00 credit, didn’t bother to read up on it.

So what’s next? A $25,000.00 credit?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-06-15 08:38:31

Nothing would surprise me.

The take away for fencesitters is that there’s a trend here. Rates are lower, prices are lower, and incentives are greater than a year ago.

Don’t fight the trend fencesitters.

 
Comment by skroodle
2009-06-15 10:22:20

The number of people that pay more than 25k in taxes is very very small compared to the number of houses for sale.

 
Comment by az_lender
2009-06-15 19:30:58

“people paying > $25K in taxes small”

Yeah, but those are exactly the people who really could afford to buy some of the blankety-blank houses. When they offer me a $25K tax credit I might buy one.

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 08:45:07

Ummm, excuse me, but doesn’t that $8k tax credit have to repaid over 15 years?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-06-15 09:06:03

No, not in it’s current incarnation. The initial attempt last year, did.

 
Comment by eastcoaster
2009-06-15 12:59:17

I’d bet the $15K one will have to be repaid.

 
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-06-15 09:45:40

I read that it’s an $8,000 cap, but actually 10% of the purchase price of the home. Then gave form 5405 a cursory glance, and it says to enter the smaller amount. The credit is misrepresented to the sheeples.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-06-15 10:21:32

*must live there 3 years
*new buyer = haven’t owned in 3 years
*salary caps
*expires Dec 01, 2009
Who freak’n cares, if next year the bargins are better, which I think they will be. $8,000- or less is small potatoes.

 
 
 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-06-15 07:41:46

“Granite countertops are durable, beautiful, and trendy. However, some granite contains as much uranium as commercial uranium ore, and those granites are radioactive”

Chinese drywall and North Korean countertops installed by an illegal alien at a price you won`t believe.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-06-15 08:17:07

How long until the class action suits start up over the granite countertops? I mean asbestos, that was for shipyard workers and such, but even yuppies can get in on this one!

Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-06-15 11:33:00

Across the street from my workplace is the local granite countertop shop…..

As he is the prototypical “local business”, I’m betting Chapter 7/11 when the first “radiation suit” hits the mailbox.

Warranties on your house, or any part of it, ain’t worth squat.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by az_lender
2009-06-15 19:35:21

Across the Deer Isle Thorofare from me (it’s a waterway) is Crotch Island (I kid you not), a big operating quarry for premium granite. No Chapter 7/11 on that, they’re supplying Deer Isle granite as the basis for Yankee Stadium. If that granite is radioactive we’re already in trouble, as the same stuff is in the Brooklyn Bridge and lots of other old structures.

 
 
 
Comment by polly
2009-06-15 08:19:38

I once saw a house “porn” show on one of the channels where an architect son had designed a house for his retired scientist father and made the coutertops out of reused lab bench tops - the kind you would see in a high school chemistry lab. I have to admit I really liked the idea. Coutertops made to withstand 15 year olds with access to bunsen burners and H2SO4. I bet you don’t have to use any fancy sealers or specially formulated cleaning products on those!

Comment by Skip
2009-06-15 08:38:28

reused lab bench tops

It will patina over time though.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by exeter
2009-06-15 10:19:38

Epoxy resin counters is the typical specification for laboratories and let me attest to the fact that they are indeed durable. I’m building my third laboratory right now with epoxy resin. It’s great stuff.

 
 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-06-15 09:51:52

Back in college I destroyed a pair of jeans by sitting on a lab table, so there is NO WAY I’d want to prepare food on an old lab table top.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-06-15 10:03:44

Back in college I destroyed a new pair of jeans by sitting on a lab table. By the time I got back to my dorm room, the humidity and activated enough of the dried acid that there were white patches on the but that I could poke my finger through. I would NEVER want to prepare food on a countertop that has had god-knows-what soaked into it.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 10:14:29

My father has a lab in the basement of my parents’ house. He has a very firm “no eating” rule. Reason: Chemical engineering research work and food just don’t mix.

So, don’t look for any recycled lab gear in the Slim family kitchen.

 
Comment by skroodle
2009-06-15 10:24:14

I figure that was how acid washed jeans were invented.

 
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-06-15 12:42:00

“My father has a lab in the basement of my parents’ house. He has a very firm “no eating” rule.”

Reminds me of that Far Side cartoon where two scientists are sitting side by side, one eating lunch and the other doing research. The one not eating says: “What the… This is lemonade! Where’s my culture of amoebic dysentery?”

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 12:50:33

The Far Side was a favorite cartoon in the Slim household. Matter of fact, my mother collected the FS books.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 08:24:49

“…and those granites are radioactive”

Nukular counter tops for everyone!

Comment by exeter
2009-06-15 09:32:00

Nukular counters for the ownership society!!!! lmao.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Al
2009-06-15 10:58:23

Not to worry. Very little food was prepared on those granite countertops.

 
Comment by SaladSD
2009-06-15 13:24:23

Too true! And it’s time to turn those dusty KitchenAid mixers into beautiful gerber daisy planters.

 
 
 
Comment by Sleepr Cell
2009-06-15 09:48:52

LOL.

But it makes cooking at night so much easier. I mean, they, like, glow in the dark :)

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/features/home/sfl-flhg08granitesbaug08,0,1868747.story

 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-06-15 09:50:39

Well that would be the perfect place to display your red fiestaware.

Comment by desertdweller
2009-06-15 19:50:10

And Red M&Ms

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-06-15 11:01:29

Man, I need to pick up one of those new in the box geiger counters off of eBay and take it to some open houses. This could be funny!

Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-06-15 11:37:43

About as much fun as taking a digital micrometer to a car parts swap meet.

The trick is to keep from smiling/laughing, as you look over at your buddy and give hime the “this POS is beyond hope” head shake, as you are miking a crankshaft, or a cylinder block.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 06:51:35

From The Economist, with my comments to follow:

Leaders
Public debt
The biggest bill in history

Jun 11th 2009
From The Economist print edition
The right and wrong ways to deal with the rich world’s fiscal mess

Brett Ryder

THE worst global economic storm since the 1930s may be beginning to clear, but another cloud already looms on the financial horizon: massive public debt. Across the rich world governments are borrowing vast amounts as the recession reduces tax revenue and spending mounts—on bail-outs, unemployment benefits and stimulus plans. New figures from economists at the IMF suggest that the public debt of the ten leading rich countries will rise from 78% of GDP in 2007 to 114% by 2014. These governments will then owe around $50,000 for every one of their citizens (see article).

Not since the second world war have so many governments borrowed so much so quickly or, collectively, been so heavily in hock. And today’s debt surge, unlike the wartime one, will not be temporary. Even after the recession ends few rich countries will be running budgets tight enough to stop their debt from rising further. Worse, today’s borrowing binge is taking place just before a slow-motion budget-bust caused by the pension and health-care costs of a greying population. By 2050 a third of the rich world’s population will be over 60. The demographic bill is likely to be ten times bigger than the fiscal cost of the financial crisis.

Will they default, inflate or manage their way out?

To answer this question, one should first consider whether it is possible for countries with massive debt burdens (relative to the real value of output) to “manage their way out.” By all appearances, the answer is no for many of the wealthy countries that went into hock to invest in high real estate (both residential and commercial) beyond the point of no return.

So that leaves the question of whether they default or inflate. Given that many wealthy countries are already running their virtual printing presses on high blast, and that defaulting is an open invitation for punishment from creditors, which seems more likely?

IMHO, the biggest problem with this article, not to mention the paradigm supported by many economists in high level policy discussions, is that they pretend that all problems are solvable. I just don’t see any solution to this one, other than to try to survive the deleveraging with the least amount of pain.

Comment by WT Economist
2009-06-15 08:12:06

The wrong way to deal with debt according to everyone who matters: raise taxes now and/or reduce benefits for today’s senior citizens.

The right way: raise taxes on the young to levels that will make it impossible for them to save, and then cut benefits for when they get old and leave them and their country in poverty.

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-06-15 09:45:10

I’m betting option two via runaway inflation and long-term economic stagnation will the choice imposed on us. What the response will be remains to be seen.

Comment by skroodle
2009-06-15 10:27:17

Its easier for Congres to not vote for raising taxes and pretend ignorance when inflation appears.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Rental Watch
2009-06-15 13:09:37

I’m thinking that #3 is in order:

Means test the benefits now and raise taxes less than they would have to otherwise for #2.

The problem is that those with the “means” will scream bloody murder.

 
 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-06-15 06:57:47

But but but I am a VICTIM! I can`t lose! LOL

Judge rules condo buyers must pay developer’s attorney’s fees
June 15th, 2009 by Eve Samples
Hundreds of boom-time buyers in Florida have tried to use the Interstate Land Sales Act to wiggle out of real estate contracts. Some have been successful, others haven’t — but a recent ruling shines light on the risk involved in pursuing such cases.

A magistrate judge ruled late last month that three buyers at St. Lucie County’s Ocean Bay Villas who were suing in an attempt to get their deposits back must repay $76,600 in attorneys fees and costs to the developer, Stuart-based Pukka Development Inc.

“The question is: Do these lawyers explain to these buyers the risk if they lose? The developers are going to go after the attorney’s fees,” said Mark Grant, a partner at Ruden McClosky in Fort Lauderdale who represented Pukka.

In the Pukka case, the plaintiffs — Saverio Pugliese, Michael Mieves, Antonio Saladino and Stephen Matalyak — claimed Pukka violated the Interstate Land Sales Act because it didn’t file specific property reports required by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development.

The U.S. District Court Southern District of Florida ultimately ruled that Pukka was exempt form the reports.

Comment by Blano
2009-06-15 07:40:43

Come on, no Pukka jokes yet?? I’m disappointed.

Comment by jeff saturday
2009-06-15 17:47:55

I tried earlier in the day, well one more time.

Now that`s a Mutha Pukka.

 
 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-06-15 09:47:04

That’s one to remember next time you’re having a bad day. No matter how tough things get, you can always be glad you’re not those guys !

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 07:09:25

Wall Street Journal

* JUNE 15, 2009

Federal Intervention Pits ‘Gets’ vs. ‘Get-Nots’

By BOB DAVIS and JON HILSENRATH

HAMBURG, Pa. — Factory worker Dennis Davis recently stopped at the Cabela’s store here to buy a $90 carrying case for the long-barreled Contender pistol he uses to shoot pesky groundhogs at his brother’s farm. He paid with a store-issued credit card.

The U.S. government helped finance the transaction. Earlier this year, it recharged the credit-card operations of the Nebraska-based retailer of hunting and camping gear with nearly $400 million of federal financing.

Mr. Davis was surprised to hear about the government’s helping hand, and hardly pleased. “Anything the federal government, or any government, sticks its nose in fails or makes things worse,” he said as he made his way across the parking lot with his son.

Comment: He was principled enough to bite the government’s helping hand, but not principled enough to not enjoy his own little slice of the bailout largess.

As part of the government’s intervention during the economic crisis, federal money has gone to a surprising number of unlikely candidates. The Journal’s Bob Davis reports.

True or not, what’s undeniable is that the federal government has burrowed its way deep into the quotidian workings of American capitalism.

Since the onset of the financial crisis nine months ago, the government has become the nation’s biggest mortgage lender, guaranteed nearly $3 trillion in money-market mutual-fund assets, commandeered and restructured two car companies, taken equity stakes in nearly 600 banks, lent more than $300 billion to blue-chip companies, supported the life-insurance industry and become a credit source for buyers of cars, tractors and even weapons for hunting.

From the figures in the sidebar, entitled Bailout Bucks:

$2,850 bn Money-market guarantees (Fed)
$428 bn Mortgage-backed securities holdings (Treasury)
$338 bn Bank debt guarantees (FDIC)
$199 bn Equity investments in all banks (Fed)
$143 bn Commercial-paper loans to companies (Treasury)

Total financial sector bailout tab (at least according to these figures) =

$2,850 bn+$428 bn+$338 bn+$199 bn+$143 bn =
$3,958,000,000,000.

That thar is lots of green shoots fertilizer for the financial sector!

Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-06-15 07:39:54

He was principled enough to bite the government’s helping hand, but not principled enough to not enjoy his own little slice of the bailout largess.

You can’t fault him for that. He doesn’t like the current system, but as a rational economic actor himself he has to work with what he’s got.

One of the strategies of the big-government set is to worm their way into every aspect of life, so that you can barely avoid dealing w/them, then call anyone a hypocrite who advocates scaling back the gov’t.

what’s undeniable is that the federal government has burrowed its way deep into the quotidian workings of American capitalism.

Reagan figured this out 30 years ago. Unfortunately he was not able to reverse or even stem the tide.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 08:21:48

“He doesn’t like the current system, but as a rational economic actor himself he has to work with what he’s got.”

Fair enough.

 
Comment by bananarepublic
2009-06-15 09:42:05

“You can’t fault him for that.”

I can. You can either oppose it, or you can take advantage of it. You can’t do both. Otherwise it’s called hypocrisy.

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 10:45:21

Do you buy food at a grocery store? Then you take advantage of government handouts.

Do you use utilities? Then you take advantage of government handouts.

In order to not use government handouts you’d have to live completely isolated from society - grow your own food, have your own water system, fuel, etc. Can’t use the phone system. Roads? Nope.

Perhaps there are a few Amish to which this apply, but I doubt even that. Even they use roads - they have special lanes set up for their buggies in many areas in fact.

It’s virtually impossible to live in the U.S. (or probably anywhere in the world) without taking some form of government subsidies directly or indirectly.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by desertdweller
2009-06-15 19:59:10

Do you use utilities? Then you take advantage of government handouts.

Not regulated, so it isn’t gov handout. Ala Enron.

 
 
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-06-15 13:20:24

“You can either oppose it, or you can take advantage of it. You can’t do both. Otherwise it’s called hypocrisy.”

OK, so if you propose higher taxes on something, you have to first pay the higher taxes yourself, before you can propose them for anyone else.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by az_lender
2009-06-15 20:00:09

I don’t agree with banana on this either. My father hated the SocSec system, and would’ve voted to abolish it if that were possible, but I don’t think that would’ve been a good reason for him to tear up the checks (and he didn’t).

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 08:25:44

Nice post Bear…

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-06-15 09:18:55

And Cabela’s is really pushing their credit cards every time you walk into the place.

Comment by oxide
2009-06-15 10:09:26

Sales associates usually get a small commission for each card they sign up. At least they do at Lord&Taylor.

The teller at my bank keeps trying to puch their savings account on me (a measly 0.5%). One of these days I’m going to have to get mean.

Comment by Kim
2009-06-15 13:57:28

“The teller at my bank keeps trying to puch their savings account on me (a measly 0.5%). One of these days I’m going to have to get mean.”

I hear ya. Made a bank run today - moved part of the “house fund” from one bank to another one right up the road just to chase a measly quarter point higher yield. You have to sign up for a 9 or 12 month CD just to match what the money markets are paying. Crazy.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 15:34:14

Well, what other choices do we have? Three or so percent on Treasuries? Putting it back in the stock market and watching it go poof?

[Slim's bias: I'm more interested in the return OF my money than the return ON my money.]

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 07:14:49

Long after the barn door was left open, the horses ran away, and the mavens of Megabank, Inc set the barn on fire and burned it to the ground, the Obamanites are making serious rumblings about permanently shutting the barn door. I still give the man credit for trying, and wish him all the luck in the world, especially given the Fed’s dismal track record to date on banking regulation (wasn’t it the Fed that basically left the barn door wide open to begin with?).

Wall Street Journal

* JUNE 15, 2009

Details Set for Remake of Financial Regulations

By DAMIAN PALETTA

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama is expected Wednesday to propose the most sweeping reorganization of financial-market supervision since the 1930s, a revamp that would touch almost every corner of banking from how mortgages are underwritten to the way exotic financial instruments are traded.

At the center of the plan, which administration officials are referring to as a “white paper,” is a move to remake powers of the Federal Reserve to oversee the biggest financial players, give the government the power to unwind and break up systemically important companies — much like the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. does with failed banks — and create a new regulator for consumer-oriented financial products, according to people involved in the process.

Comment by Asparagus
2009-06-15 07:47:45

Granted, these are a day late, I am glad to see some regulation moving. If these regulations will make investors safer from today going forward, then let’s boogie.

 
Comment by drumminj
2009-06-15 08:19:17

a move to remake powers of the Federal Reserve to oversee the biggest financial players

Isn’t the Fed owned by the biggest financial players? Isn’t this a huge conflict of interest?

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 08:23:26

I think that gets straight to the point: Putting the Fed in charge of financial sector reforms is quite like putting the fox in charge of guarding the hen house.

 
 
Comment by measton
2009-06-15 08:42:24

There is absolutely no way the FED should be involved in regulation. The FED is owned and operated by the banks, so why should it be put in charge of regulation.

I’m mad enough to write another letter to my worthless representatives that I’m sure will be ignored.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 08:49:27

“Popular government has two major parts. One part is fraud. The other is larceny”.

-B.Bonner

Comment by bananarepublic
2009-06-15 09:45:57

Right, but if you privatize everything competition ensures that everyone plays by the rules.

LMAO!

Comment by oxide
2009-06-15 10:13:09

…Yeah, except that if the rules aren’t strong enough, everyone eventually consolidates into a few strong companies.* Now your competition is gone and your monopolistic companies are too big to fail.

———-
*And the stock market loves it! The business newpeople was having *ahem* physical reactions each time they reported a merger or acquisition, especially if it involved a “private equity group.” Made me sick.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-06-15 12:48:17

“if the rules aren’t strong enough, everyone eventually consolidates into a few strong companies”

No, the rules (i.e. corporation laws) are what allow consolidation in the first place. Solution: repeal corporation laws.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 07:19:22

International Demand for U.S. Assets Slowed in April (Update1)
By Vincent Del Giudice

June 15 (Bloomberg) — International demand for U.S. financial assets weakened in April as China, Japan and Russia trimmed holdings of Treasuries, a shift that may reinforce concern demand for American debt will wane amid record deficits.

Total net purchases of long-term equities, notes and bonds rose a net $11.2 billion, compared with buying of $55.4 billion in March, the Treasury said today in Washington. International holdings of Treasuries rose a net $41.9 billion, down from the $55.3 billion gain in March. Including bills, the holdings fell a net $2.6 billion.

Chinese, Brazilian and Russian officials have expressed an interest in developing an alternative to the dollar as the world’s main reserve currency. Treasuries have tumbled since March in part because of worries about ballooning federal deficits, according to Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke.

“China and Russia both indicated a desire to diversify out of dollar denominated instruments, and April seems to have emphasized their current position,” Michael Woolfolk, senior currency strategist at Bank of New York Mellon Corp. in New York, said. “That came as a surprise.”

Comment by Mike in Miami
2009-06-15 09:06:30

To me, it comes as a surprise that this development comes as a surprise to anyone remotely familiar with the situation. I guess once you pull your head out of the rosy glow of your own butt, pretty much anything going on in this scary world comes as a surprise.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-06-15 11:24:17

I guess once you pull your head out of the rosy glow of your own butt…

Hahahaah! Nice.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 08:13:09

Never heard of a hookah bar, but I don’t keep up with many trends…

Trendy hookah smokers could lose N.C. lounges
Smoking ban that takes effect Jan. 2 prohibits lit tobacco in indoor bars and restaurants.
By Lindsay Ruebens

PJ’s Coffee and Lounge buzzed Thursday night with hip twenty-somethings, ordering drinks and gathering on couches to smoke hookah.

The EpiCentre lounge is one of several businesses to join the trend among young people to smoke flavored tobacco from a hookah, or water pipe, in a communal setting.

But the growing popularity of hookah service at trendy Charlotte bars – and throughout the state – is in jeopardy with North Carolina’s recent passage of a smoking ban.

The ban, effective Jan. 2, prohibits any form of lit tobacco in indoor bars and restaurants.

“It’s a Prohibition type of thing,” said Jason Smalls, who tried hookah at PJ’s for the first time Thursday. “It’s crazy. People shouldn’t tell us what we can and can’t do with our own money.”

The hookah is a centuries-old device of Middle Eastern and African origins. Tobacco infused with honey, molasses and other flavors is placed in a bowl at the top of the pipe and heated with charcoal. As smokers inhale through a long, flexible stem, the smoke is pulled through gurgling, cooling water.

An average of 10 hookahs are smoked per night, and that number doubles and often triples on the weekends, said Bill Barker, partner of PJ’s Coffee and Lounge.

Hookah bars are varied in their fare. Some offer Middle Eastern cuisine, and others offer tea, coffee, beer and wine.

Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 08:33:57

Flavor it so the crap tastes good and cool it so you can inhale about 10 times the nicotine that your lungs would normally withstand…And we criminalize Marijuana…Go figure…

Comment by skroodle
2009-06-15 10:41:19

If Shisha is used, the amount of nicotine is very very light compared to the chemically(formaldehyde, ammonium, cyanide, etc) treated tobacco used in cigarettes. In fact, the smell of the hookah is completely different and not irritating like cigarette smoke.

Cigarette will still feed the need to have a cigarette or two after smoking a hookah.

Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 12:08:46

Interesting…I have never heard of it…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Blano
2009-06-15 09:46:37

I used to smoke that stuff on occasion with some Arab friends of mine. Even as a non smoker, I thought if was pretty good.

“As smokers inhale through a long, flexible stem, the smoke is pulled through gurgling, cooling water.”

I still have one that one of my friends gave to me. Looks just like a big ol’ bong (about 2 feet tall).

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-06-15 11:38:08

I like hookahs because I feel like the caterpillar in ‘Alice in Wonderland’ when I sit and puff meditatively away.
Now I just wish I had a giant mushroom to sit on at the same time. What bliss that would be!

Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 12:10:18

Oly in Wonderland :)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Blano
2009-06-15 12:11:18

The hard and fast tokes were always the best……… :)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2009-06-15 08:18:55

Another condominium project turned homeless shelter.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/06/another_new_bui.php

“We were deceived. When they first started building it they said it was going to be apartments,” said Melissa Mona, 27, who lives across from the hulking building at 652 Park Ave., which now takes in a revolving door of homeless families.”

The city is paying the developer $100,000 per month. If they’d just let these guys default, they could buy the damn building for one-third that amount or less. Must be a connected developer.

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 08:50:16

Since the Federal Reserve z1 data came out the other day - here are updated graphs of various debt loads.

Mortgage Debt
Federal Government Debt
Debt of various sectors
Total Debt

Of note is that there has not yet been any decrease in the mortgage, business, or financial debt in this downturn, as a percentage of GDP at least. There has been some decline in the nominal debt, but that’s been matched by GDP decline, and thus debt remains on its high plateau.

Meanwhile Federal Government debt is of course on a near-vertical slope - a rate of increase matched only by our ramp ups for WW1 and WW2.

 
Comment by serling
2009-06-15 08:53:47

I’ve learned so much from this board and am still learning. Maybe someone can be gracious enough to do the math (PITI) for me, but I don’t think this Massachusetts for sale 2 family has exactly/will exactly cash flow as a rental. I would think one would be in the hole, but by how much?

Sunday, on the way to the vegetable stand, I did stop by to check out this place. The time I stopped was at the very end and I was only the third person to put my name on the sign in sheet. The asking price was $299,900.

The location was on a busy street (double yellow lines so no parking on it) next to a large condo complex.

Again, it was a 2 family and according to the sheet, the gross income rent was $2,300 ($12* 2,300 = 27,600, or $1,150/month for each unit). This sounded reasonable for the area. The top unit was a big 2 bedroom and the bottom unit was a 3 bedroom. The sale sheet stated the gross expenses were $0 so the Net income was $27,600. That doesn’t sound the very least realistic to me.

The taxes for the year are approximately $2,550. This town happens to make assessments that are usually (expect for really off-years of say 2002-2006) near the actual value of the house if house tends to be in ‘move-in’ condition. The assessed price on this place was $264K, so I tend to guess $264K would be the top selling price.

Plus, it was a basic rental, and there seemed to be a little work needed to be put into it, so I would say the selling price should be a little less by say $10-20K but then what do I know? For example, the closet doors were very poor and some were falling off. One closet didn’t have a door. Some rooms classified as bedrooms really weren’t because there wasn’t a closet in them. So a closet would have to be built. The rugs looked just okay. The bathtubs were re-baths.

I’ve learned from this board, a basic rule of thumb is the purchase price is about 120 times the rent so the purchase price here would be $276K.

I asked the realtor when the people purchased the house and he replied in 2005. I went home and did some checking and he was right, it was bought in the beginning of October 2005.

According to the information sheet, there was a bunch of work done to the house in October 2005, probably mostly done by the new people. Basically:
October 2005 – House deleaded
2005 – septic passed title 5 (would have to do so for the sale)
October 2005 – Installed hot water Heater (other hot water heater was 1996 so probably getting near time for a new one as over ½ life gone on this one)
Since 2005 – new ranges, new refrigerators, new washer and dryers
November 2006 – new toilet
July 2008 – new gas service (? on what that means)
October 2005 – new baths, kitchens, carpet and paint (don’t know what the sellers consider ‘new’ because it was a ‘gut job’ or even an update. I think ‘new’ for this means the new toilet, refrigerators, ranges).

It was an ‘OK’ looking place. I wouldn’t mind renting the top (2 bedroom unit) if the rental price were right and the landlord was okay. However, that’s what it looked like - an average rental.

The house’s history is:
Purchase in 9/2001 for 213K
Sold to present owners 10/2005 for 295K (at that time got 2 mortgages of 177K and 30K).
Then in 2/2008 re-mortgaged for $202K

I seem to remember this house being for sale last year – then pulled.

Again any insights are appreciated.

***
Oh, in my parent’s neighborhood, there’s a house that was bought in 2003 for $315K. Since then the owner did build a small addition on it. It went up for sale- an open house on it this past Sunday – for $435K. This house joins 3 other houses for sale in a small neighborhood of approximately 90 houses.

Comment by Blano
2009-06-15 09:38:32

Just off the top of my head……

Zero gross expenses is flat out false.

There’s ALWAYS expenses associated with rentals besides taxes (which IIRC are part of gross expenses). You always have to build in maintenance expenses even if you don’t have any in a given month, since you’ll have bigger expenses eventually (say, a roof) and that has to be accounted for in some way. You need to build that expense into your profit and loss estimates otherwise you’ll lose big when the time comes to fix it.

You also have to include a vacancy factor to account for times when the place will be empty (and it will be, usually when you least expect it). At least 5 percent if not 10 percent of the monthly total rent.

Also, a couple comments you make are classic newbie mistakes (no offense intended). I think you are confusing discussions of 120x rent with a hard and fast price to pay. Don’t assume you should just buy for 120x rent or that because of that 276K sounds reasonable. 10-20K off is still full retail price and you should never, EVER pay retail price or anywhere near it. You need to figure out the positive cash flow (if any), and decide how much of a monthly/annual return is worth you becoming a landlord. 5 percent?? I hope not. 10?? 15??

And get you own agent.

Comment by serling
2009-06-15 12:21:24

Blano,
Thank you for your comments and pointing out classic NEWBIE mistakes. I appreciate all I am learning here. I would much rather make NEWBIE mistakes here with all the fellow HBBloggers than in real life. For example, I’ve learned to show up when the housing inspector does, follow the inspector around and ask questions.

Thank you for explaining the 120X rent isn’t a hard and fast rule. I was using it to judge what the maximum price of the place should be. Again, I’m lucky this is a town where (normally) the selling price has some relation to the assessed price. Okay, so for a rental, it really should be less than that.

Sometimes it’s just frustrating to see what little I have in the bank making so little. My dad tells me during the depression, the banks paid 3% on savings account. Of course, most people didn’t have any money, but if you did, you got 3%. Sad that the banks aren’t even giving depression interest rates.

When the time comes to purchase - if I live so long- I plan to get at least MY OWN real estate lawyer and agent, though as I’ve learned that from this blog, even a buyer’s agent is working for himself/herself. I’ve also learned how mistrustful a UHS (used house salesperson) can legally be. I probably will end up purchasing in a different state anyway.

For every open house I’ve attended recently, including this last one, I have the agent ask if I am working with anyone. I always reply ‘no’ and they get excited. This last one asked me if I have been ‘pre-approved.’ I answered ‘yes’ but over 3 month’s ago. Cough, cough, it’s been like 2 years, so technically it’s over 3 months.

I currently am only attending open houses that interest me. This one did as it was a 2-family and I thought I remembered it being for sale last year. I think I’m right on that because the listing states the pictures inside aren’t current and the tenants have month-to-month leases.

After talking with some landlords, I don’t think the work involved for the return/stress fits with my personally. I’m friendly with one landlord who has a 2-family. Recently, the first floor has been vacant for 2 months and she is facing the second floor becoming vacant next month. She knows that means her property insurance is going to increase on a vacant house. She bought the property a long time ago. She once said, “I don’t know why people are going on about high mortgage interest rates. When I bought the place, the interest rate on the mortgage was 14%.”

She also told me about building vacancy rates She told me after one bad rental experience early in her landlord career, “No tenant is better than a bad tenant.” One time she had to wait 10 months to find a good tenant. I am beginning to learning about building in expenses – not sure what housing expenses quite yet– from her as she had all the windows replaced last year. She told me, “You really don’t want to become a landlord. There’s too much aggravation.”

Several years ago, I thought about buying one of the places in which I lived, a 4-plex. Thankfully (for me) I found out some work had been done there without permits. The landlord’s solution to me getting a bank loan, “Just rip out the kitchen when the house is inspected by the bank and then re-install the kitchen.” Uh, no, I like to sleep at night and won’t do so with un-permitted work. I suggested he go to the zoning board and get it properly zoned. He tried to sell it 2 times while I was renting there. He had several interested people - until they found out about the zoning problems. I finally moved during the second time and he had one month’s vacancy. He ended up re-renting my apartment for less/month.

For this open house, I just couldn’t see how the present owners were making any money and presenting the gross expenses as $0, showing it as a viable rental property. I guess maybe the buyer would bank on ‘future appreciation.’ This blog taught me, “You make your money when you buy the place.”

If I were looking for rental property, I would pass on this one. While I wouldn’t mind renting the top floor, I didn’t like the bottom floor. It could most properly be described as a ‘walk out basement’ rental, even though all the windows were full. I just didn’t like one full wall being underground. I get cagey about below water living space. In this town if you have a basement, it’s best to have a dehumidifier (set to drain automatically into the), sump pump area– and a backup sump pump along with a wet/dry vacuum. You might live in a house that hasn’t had water in the basement for the 50 years it’s been in existence. Then bam! You get hit and have to rush in hip boots to the store to try and get the last automatic pump.

So if I end up renting for the rest of my life so be it. I had a relative, when questioned about housing purchase yell at me, “At least I’m not throwing away money on rent.” From what I learned here I bit my tongue and refrained from replying, “At least I’m not throwing away my money on bank interest.”

 
 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2009-06-15 10:17:19

The MA. rentals we’ve been looking ar are now priced 10% to 30% higher from the March 09 lows. Might be best to wait unil next year and or possibly 2010 to 2012.

Comment by Asparagus
2009-06-15 10:39:00

From beantown, I have two friends who this year have sold their condos at a slight loss. Both have gone back to renting.

I’m starting to think the rental market might be getting tight. With sales so low, there must be a lot more 30-somethings, who would have bought by now, still renting.

Comment by Al
2009-06-15 11:03:25

“With sales so low, there must be a lot more 30-somethings, who would have bought by now, still renting.”

Unless they bought in their late 20s with a zero down pick a pay option arm, and have now returned to renting.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 08:55:18

Question: I’ve been paying something like 30 bucks a month for an insurance plan on my home appliances. Company’s called American Home Shield, and a friend recommended them.

But, as y’all know from my recent water line tales, things can happen on one’s homestead. And they’re things that companies like AHS won’t touch because they only take care of things inside the house.

I’m also hearing that AHS likes to act like a health insurer when it comes to paying on claims. (Meaning that it’s all too quick to deny them.)

So, I’m wondering if AHS is really worth it. I did have someone from them come out to look at my stove a couple of years ago, and, quite frankly, I wasn’t impressed.

Long story short: I’m starting to think that this sort of insurance is sort of like those extended warranty plans that electronics stores try so hard to sell. It’s not necessary, but the stores make a lot of money off of it.

Your thoughts?

Comment by DennisN
2009-06-15 09:34:34

How much is their deductable? When I bough my house I got one of those thrown in but it had a $45 per service call deductable.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 10:10:05

Mine has that $45/service call deductible.

Oh, and shortly after I moved in here, both toilets went fubar. One had a leaky tank, which the home warranty plumber was all too happy to replace. (The home warranty was under First American.)

Only problem was, the plumber was trying to graft a 1.6 gallon low-flow tank onto a high-flow base. The high-flow base needed 5 gallons per flush.

I called the plumber out on what he was trying to do, and I made him replace the whole toilet. He wasn’t very happy with me, but I was danged if I was going to have a toilet that didn’t flush properly.

 
 
Comment by Al
2009-06-15 09:35:42

I think your last para says it all. Waste of money. Insurance should just be for catastrophic stuff, not routine. You can get a passable used replacement stove/washer/dryer or whatever for a year’s worth of premiums.

 
Comment by drumminj
2009-06-15 09:45:04

My experience with those types of things is only related to the sale of a house. When I bought, a 1 year warranty was “included” (paid for by seller), and I was expected to do the same when I sold it.

FWIW, I never used it. But I suppose if you buy and the A/C unit or water heater fails immediately, it could come in handy. I suppose it’s insurance for the job your home inspector did.

Comment by Jim A.
2009-06-15 09:58:15

Yes, in that case it protects you from the possiblity that the seller KNOWS that the furnace is on it’s last legs and you assume that it has years of sevice left.

 
 
Comment by Sleepr Cell
2009-06-15 10:14:53

I have an insurance contract with AHS and it’s been an absolute blessing. They fixed my dishwasher, hot water heater and HVAC system (multiple times) all under their standard service contract. I have heard that they have a bad reputation but the’ve always done right by me.

Comment by Sleepr Cell
2009-06-15 10:27:44

P.S.

I have the standard $50 deductable but considering the replacement costs of what they have fixed the policy has paid for itself 10X over.

 
 
Comment by Cowtown
2009-06-15 11:25:17

We received an AHS contract when we bought (paid by the seller). We had 2 claims, both denied, nevertheless we were charged $50 each time for the house call. YMMV, but I’ll never do business with them again.

 
Comment by tgun
2009-06-15 12:10:47

AZ Slim- you are absolutely correct. These appliance repair plans are high margin products peddled by a variety of companies (Retailers, Utilities, independents, etc.).

You would most likely be better off financially to put the same amount per month into a CD than to pay for this repair plan.

Worked for a utility in product development and the appliance repair plan was always the most profitable. Lots of “loopholes” and limited coverage…

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 12:40:15

Okay, everybody. Thank you for helping me to make a decision. I’m going to send American Home Shield packing and keep the roughly $360/year I’ve been paying them in my pocket.

Comment by Real Estate Refugee
2009-06-15 14:05:59

Put the $360 in a bank account for home maintenace and self-insure.

While I’m on the subject…

For those of you with individual health insurance, look into high deductible policies with an HSA component. Max out the HSA contribution every year. If you don’t need to use the HSA account, you can deduct your HSA contribution plus any health care costs. Really good for the years you’re making good money.

Like retirement accounts, money in HSA accounts accrue tax free.

Gotta love tax free.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 15:39:03

I had an HSA (actually, an MSA) a few years ago. It sucked even more shhhh through a straw than the health “insurance” I have now.

 
 
 
 
Comment by calex
2009-06-16 02:51:23

Well I bought a pair of shoes at sports authority and was pleased to find out that I could now get insurance on my shoe purchase.

Not pleased for the actual insurance per say, more for the fact that I could now say to the clerk “that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard”, “Does anybody really fall for that?”

 
Comment by AnonyRuss
2009-06-16 09:18:51

Those warranties are a bad idea, even if some people may have had a positive experience, their usual MO is to deny and delay substantial claims. Some make unreasonable service record demands and then wait to be sued (and settle). Apparently, distaste for litigation over the cost of things like a dishwasher means that even the sleazier outfits operate profitably and with impunity. Maybe an AG will crack down on them, but do not hold your breath.

But do save your cash. Save the $350 to $550 annually, plus the service call fees for their contracted providers. Then go buy your own dishwasher or water heater when you need one. In southern Arizona, the most common scare tactic to push these is the air-condition complete breakdown scenario. Of course, saving for that once every fifteen years or so scenario would be wise, but even debt would be better than filling these warranty coffers and then battling them for a new unit.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 08:58:16

Setting up another to big to ‘fail’?

BlackRock announced a $13.5 billion merger with Barclays Global Investors today, making the former company the biggest money manager in the world. BlackRock will soon oversee $2.7 trillion in assets, making it roughly twice the size of State Street or Fidelity, its closest competitors. That’s $2.7 trillion under management… with a market cap of just $34 billion.

If that marriage of assets to equity wasn’t unnerving enough, BlackRock will also pick up iShares in the deal. That makes the new world’s biggest asset manager also the world’s biggest wielder of exchange-traded funds (ETFs) — the rabidly popular, complex derivatives (many of which track other complicated derivatives) that millions own, but very few truly understand.

From the Agora5

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 10:00:19

“Setting up another to big to ‘fail’?”

Apparently that is the ticket for membership in the bailout-worthy club.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 09:17:26

Extended Stay Hotels files for Chapter 11
Privately held Extended Stay Hotels files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
On Monday June 15, 2009, 11:41 am EDT

NEW YORK (AP) — Extended Stay Hotels LLC has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

The Spartanburg, S.C.-based company’s brands include Extended Stay Deluxe, Extended Stay America Efficiency Studios, Homestead Studio Suites, StudioPLUS Deluxe Studios and Crossland Economy Studios. It operates more than 650 hotels in the U.S. and Canada catering to long-term business travelers.

In Chapter 11, a company typically tries to stay in business and reorganize its finances under court supervision.

The privately held company, operated by HVM LLC, filed in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in the Southern District of New York on Monday. A company representative did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-06-15 10:16:16

This gives me a wee bit of nostalgia. I stayed at the Extended Stay over on Mottman when I loaded up a carload of my pots and pans and a couple shoes and drove myself out westward ho to see what I could see.
I drove into Olympia, and it was raining like blazes! I mean, I had never seen so much rain in my life all at one time. So I checked into the first thing I spotted, and then sat in the dimly lit room goggling amazedly out the window at all. that. rain…
I wanted to stay for a week to visit around here before heading on down to Portland, which was my ultimate destination.
Lessee, that week visit was…one..two…counting…three…oh, almost 5 years ago? :)

And I ate a lot of tacos at the Jack in the Box right next door the morning after. I got a craving and enjoyed about 15 for breakfast. No, it would have been 16, because they came in duos. Or maybe it was 18.
Ah, delicious crunchy cheap tacos…
I should celebrate my arrival here by going out and eating 18 tacos for lunch. Like I do every day, only with purpose for once.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-06-15 13:16:07

And we all thought you were the cute dainty little girl thrashing in the rain, climbing trees and jungle jims….now we know you Waddle slowly across the street…you’ve be outed OLY….LOL

——————-
I got a craving and enjoyed about 15 for breakfast. No, it would have been 16, because they came in duos. Or maybe it was 18.

 
Comment by ATE-UP
2009-06-15 15:28:23

Oly, you are antithetical to Al Gore. Methane issues abound.

 
 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2009-06-15 11:10:12

I’m writing this from a Homestead Suites (Extended Stay) in Salt Lake. If you’re reading this, they haven’t cut the electric or the Internet just yet :-)

These places have been our home away from home, and have enabled me to carry on quite will over the past year, while we’ve been in transition away from So. Utah. They’ve given us incredibly cheap rates because of their being desperate for occupancy.

Guess I’d better get on with things.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-06-15 11:28:02

Guess I’d better get on with things.

Yeah! Get off the keyboard and go right out and getcherself 18 cheap Jack- in- the- Box tacos! Quickly! Quicklyyyy!!!! :)

 
Comment by Blano
2009-06-15 12:12:53

Doesn’t sound like they’re gonna be leavin’ the light on for you much longer, like the competition.

 
 
 
Comment by Zombie Banks
2009-06-15 09:28:35

My new posting name:
sweeping changes.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-06-15 09:58:35

Oh, I like that.
Although the image I now have in my head is of a zombie energetically sweeping a straw-broom around a bank lobby.

Comment by Sweeping Changes
2009-06-15 11:08:33

I was a zombie now I am fastidious.

 
 
Comment by phillygal
2009-06-15 11:23:08

I’m changing handle as well.

from now on I’m X-philly. Haven’t lived in the city in a while.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 11:30:25

Are you a Delco (Delaware County) or Chesco (Chester County) resident? I’ve lived in both counties. Prefer Chesco.

Comment by phillygal
2009-06-15 12:48:52

I’m in the part of Delco that’s closest to Chesco. I was looking at condos around West Chester, but I probably would like living most anywhere in Chester County.

But I grew up in a grittier part of Delco. I’ve had occasion recently to frequent the area up around Chester Pike and MacDade Boulevard, my god the women there are tough.
To think about it though, maybe they just love to mouth off. Where I grew up we didn’t open our yaps unless we meant business. Nobody spoke unless they were prepared to follow through.

If you know what I mean.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 12:52:39

I know exactly what you mean. It was called not letting your mouth write a check that your butt couldn’t cash.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 12:55:16

(Ex) Phillygal, my family lives just over the Chesco line. Y’know where Westtown Township is? That’s where I grew up.

And, trust me, the Slim family is very much opposed to the cookie-cutter overdevelopment that has taken place in the area. Don’t get us started on Toll Bros. and their ilk. Just don’t.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Sweeping Changes
2009-06-15 09:29:54

test

 
Comment by Sweeping Changes
2009-06-15 09:41:53

New Health plan:
face lifts and boob jobs for all!

Comment by desertdweller
2009-06-15 20:56:17

Face jobs and boob lifts.

Now that is better.

 
 
Comment by Sleepr Cell
2009-06-15 09:45:13

Giving it back to Mom.

http://www.alternet.org/environment/140629/intriguing_plan_in_michael_moore%27s_home_town%3A_bulldoze_the_ghost_%27burbs%2C_return_them_to_nature/

As in ‘mother earth’

As goes Flint Mi, so goes the US.
Personally I think this is the correct response and should have been implemented a long time ago. Demand destruction, meet supply destruction.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 09:47:00

Crops under stress as temperatures fall
Sounds like food costs will be on the increase…

Our politicians haven’t noticed that the problem may be that the world is not warming but cooling.
By Christopher Booker
13 Jun 2009

For the second time in little over a year, it looks as though the world may be heading for a serious food crisis, thanks to our old friend “climate change”. In many parts of the world recently the weather has not been too brilliant for farmers. After a fearsomely cold winter, June brought heavy snowfall across large parts of western Canada and the northern states of the American Midwest. In Manitoba last week, it was -4ºC. North Dakota had its first June snow for 60 years.

There was midsummer snow not just in Norway and the Cairngorms, but even in Saudi Arabia. At least in the southern hemisphere it is winter, but snowfalls in New Zealand and Australia have been abnormal. There have been frosts in Brazil, elsewhere in South America they have had prolonged droughts, while in China they have had to cope with abnormal rain and freak hailstorms, which in one province killed 20 people.

None of this has given much cheer to farmers. In Canada and northern America summer planting of corn and soybeans has been way behind schedule, with the prospect of reduced yields and lower quality. Grain stocks are predicted to be down 15 per cent next year. US reserves of soya – used in animal feed and in many processed foods – are expected to fall to a 32-year low.

In China, the world’s largest wheat grower, they have been battling against the atrocious weather to bring in the harvest. (In one province they even fired chemical shells into the clouds to turn freezing hailstones into rain.) In north-west China drought has devastated crops with a plague of pests and blight. In countries such as Argentina and Brazil droughts have caused such havoc that a veteran US grain expert said last week: “In 43 years I’ve never seen anything like the decline we’re looking at in South America.”

Comment by LongIslandLost
2009-06-15 10:02:25

Well, we had a global economic collapse and a pandemic … which is really too much to believe if one were watching a disaster movie. So, adding famine to the mix would just add to the stories for the younger set 20 years from now.

 
Comment by are they crazy
2009-06-15 10:52:57

If I read your comment correctly, are you saying there’s no climate change problem because it’s cold in some places instead of warming? That’s part of the reason they’ve tried to move from “global warming” to “climate change.” Some folks couldn’t quite understand that climate change can be either direction.

Comment by Asparagus
2009-06-15 10:57:45

You beat me to it.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 11:01:10

I make no comment on “climate” change, it’s been changing sine the beginning.

The point I was reading is the food issue, many in the ag business have been saying for some time now that are growing tighter.

 
Comment by Blano
2009-06-15 12:09:39

Again I say…….climate has been changing since Day 1, and will be changing forever. Nothing we can do about it and it’s not our fault either.

 
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-06-15 12:58:37

“That’s part of the reason they’ve tried to move from “global warming” to “climate change.””

The other part is that nobody can prove them wrong if they say climate change, because it’s so vague as to be meaningless.

 
 
Comment by Asparagus
2009-06-15 10:55:17

I believe the whole deal is “climate change”, not global “warming” or “cooling”, just change. Places that normally had weather A are now experience a little more of weather B conditions.

I’m tired of articles that are based on the idea that the EVERYWHERE on earth is going to get warmer or EVERYWHERE on earth is going to get cooler. It’s the change that’s dangerous. Don’t get hung up on the fact that one place gets hotter and one gets colder and think they cancel each other out.

Comment by iftheshoefits
2009-06-15 11:34:09

The name started changing from “global warming” to “climate change” after it became impossible to deny that the models predicting planet-wide warming were bombing rather severely, for all to see.

A few years ago there were no predictions of significant cooling from the main alarmists. Instead, those predictions were coming from the “denialists”, pointing out the unusual decrease in solar activity, and where that would likely lead. The warmenists were proclaiming that warming was spiraling out of control and little time was left to save things.

Whatever actually is happening, the dishonesty of the warmenists is staggering, and so many have fallen for it.

Comment by Steve W
2009-06-15 12:34:45

Well, this year, warm is still in, I guess. Jan through May 2009 is 6th warmest on record over entire earth.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2009/may/global.html#temp

personally, I’ve been loving the 60s in Chicago for highs last few weeks.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 14:23:43

Here in Tucson, it’s been in the 90s for the daily high. Unheard of for this time of year. Usually, it’s 105 degrees. Or higher.

 
Comment by desertdweller
2009-06-15 21:03:43

Slim, this desert has seen 80s, and cloud cover, which altogether hasn’t been experienced for many, well eons.
Not till this wknd will it get to be near 100. It is 10-15 degrees below the average.

 
Comment by desertdweller
2009-06-15 21:04:47

10-15 degrees below and I LOVE it!

 
 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-06-15 13:44:26

Whatever actually is happening, the dishonesty of the warmenists is staggering, and so many have fallen for it.

Blah blah blah.

This sh!t is no longer worth arguing about with the Flat Earth Crowd.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-06-15 14:50:49

Not if you have no arguments, and can only sputter profanities.

 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 11:11:58

– “Inflation – rising prices, or a drop in the purchasing power of the dollar – will soon rise to the very top of economic concerns,” writes Chris Mayer. “I can’t understand why there are pundits who insist we can’t have inflation while the economy is weak. There are plenty of examples of weak economies with high inflation. After all, I don’t think they are hitting on all cylinders in Zimbabwe, where inflation is thousands of percent.”

Look at food prices, Chris says. “Soybean prices hit a nine-month high of $12.50 a bushel. The Department of Agriculture said that inventories would drop to only 110 million bushels – the lowest level since 1976-77, when inventories hit 103 million bushels. There were about 2 billion fewer mouths on the planet then. At today’s 32-year low, we can eat through that stockpile in about two weeks. Not a lot room for error; hence, the nine-month high in prices.

“We have a similar tight market in corn. In corn, we’re down to about a four-week supply, the lowest in six years. Corn has rallied also. In fact, the prices of a variety of grains are now at levels not seen since the last food crisis:”

“During the last food crisis, rice traded for $1,000 a ton and there were riots in different parts of the world. The financial crisis took the headlines away from the unfolding food crisis, but now we are looking at act II.”

Comment by measton
2009-06-15 20:11:55

Inflation – rising prices, or a drop in the purchasing power of the dollar – will soon rise to the very top of economic concerns,” writes Chris Mayer. “I can’t understand why there are pundits who insist we can’t have inflation while the economy is weak. There are plenty of examples of weak economies with high inflation. After all, I don’t think they are hitting on all cylinders in Zimbabwe, where inflation is thousands of percent.”

One BIG BIG difference. Zimbabwe consumes <<1% of world resources. So when their population started consuming fewer products due to price inflation it didn’t make a blip in world demand. Thus prices did not fall. Currently we have the US EUrope Asia and most other countries exibiting falling demand. If they print money and hand it off to the banks and not to the people that money will not increase demand. Currently in the US income and borrowing are falling, job security is gone and debts need to be repaid. When they start dropping cash from helicopters wake me up, handing money to banks is not going to cause immediate inflation.

 
 
 
Comment by Muggy
2009-06-15 09:52:14

Doing some field work at a local school… secretary has never seen so many returned report cards from the post office.

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 09:59:27

Is there an index measuring that?

^RRCI or something. Then we need an ETF tied to it.

:)

 
 
Comment by bananarepublic
2009-06-15 09:53:56

So let me get this straight. They have a big contested election, there are calls of voter fraud, and then their supreme court rules in the favor of the guy they are aligned with? No wait. That isn’t Iran. That was what happened here in 2000.

The Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei directed one of Iran’s most influential bodies, the Guardian Council, to examine the claims of voter fraud.

You have to be shitting me. Even Iran has a better democracy than we do.

BTW, pay very little attention to our worthless news media and their propaganda attacks on Iran. It’s bullshit.

Comment by BP
2009-06-15 11:31:58

Dude, you are on some good stuff you want to share?

Comment by bananarepublic
2009-06-15 15:00:50

I know! Ain’t reality a bitch?

Comment by jeff saturday
2009-06-15 19:25:50

“I know! Ain’t reality a bitch?”

I guess, but then maybe like Joe Biden and crew I guessed wrong.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Blano
2009-06-15 12:06:47

For cryin’ out loud, try to live in the present already. And grow up.

Nice language too.

 
Comment by Blano
2009-06-15 16:51:28

So how come bananaman can post this shit but rebuttals aren’t??? I didn’t even use any foul language in my original response.

This is ridiculous. Apparently only righties that get warnings and then aren’t allowed to defend themselves. Nice job.

Comment by desertdweller
2009-06-15 21:08:20

Nah, you just usually bash women or wives. Or used to, and the other guy too. Suddenly pc?

 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-06-15 19:10:39

“That was what happened here in 2000. ”

I voted in Palm Beach County in 2000, that butterfly ballot
was NOT hard to figure out. I always thought anyone who couldn`t figure it out probably should not have their vote counted anyway. To cap it all off, the stupid county spent millions of dollars on new machines after that election when anyone who couldn`t check to make sure their holes were punched with no hanging chads had to be a real banana and their vote should definitely not count.

Comment by Michael Viking
2009-06-15 21:33:04

+5000

 
 
Comment by Stpn2me
2009-06-16 01:04:41

We (the United States) arent a democracy. Until you learn that, you are behind in the argument..

 
 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-06-15 10:11:59

Testing drumminj’s suggestion that leaving off http and www might help a link get through.

Today’s Austin American Statesman online dispels that recession gloom, a bit light on actual information and sources to be sure… What I relief. I think I’ll buy a couple condos after lunch.

statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/theticker/entries/2009/06/15/recovery_in_sight_for_the_aust.html

Comment by drumminj
2009-06-15 10:42:53

Did this go right through for you? Looks like it was posted 30 mins ago, but I just refreshed the page…

 
Comment by desertdweller
2009-06-15 21:09:56

LOl, hurry, this is the best time to buy. Heard it this wknd.

 
 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 11:10:49

Dang - made the mistake of trying to post multiple links at once, and it’s not showing up. I’ll try again one at a time without the http thing, then follow with links.

With the new Fed Res z1 data out the other day I updated my graphs showing various debt levels….

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 11:13:17

Morgage debt first:

img190.imageshack.us/img190/9449/graphmortgagedebtpercen.jpg

Of note of course is that it hasn’t come down at all of its very high plateau, relative to GDP.

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 11:14:48

Now Federal Government debt. Note that the rate of rise is the highest ever with the exception of WW1 and WW2 ramp-ups.

img190.imageshack.us/img190/4029/graphfedgovdebtpercento.jpg

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 11:19:29

Now debt for various sectors.

Of note is the financial sector - which has risen by far the most of any the last few decades. I haven’t looked into the details of that debt other than it’s mostly for “asset backed securities”, which I believe includes Fannie and Freddie (not sure). I’m not sure if it includes other trading leveraging - margin and/or derivatives and such. I plan to look deeper, though if anyone can add color off the top of their head that’d be good.

It’s hard to say how dangerous that is - if it’s anything like the others, to me it’s a really big untold story. It’s also worth noting that it’s still rising even during this downturn.

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5350/graphsectorldebtpercent.jpg

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 11:20:59

Now debt for various sectors.

Of note is the financial sector - which has risen by far the most of any the last few decades. I haven’t looked into the details of that debt other than it’s mostly for “asset backed securities”, which I believe includes Fannie and Freddie (not sure). I’m not sure if it includes other trading leveraging - margin and/or derivatives and such. I plan to look deeper, though if anyone can add color off the top of their head that’d be good.

It’s hard to say how dangerous that is - if it’s anything like the others, to me it’s a really big untold story. It’s also worth noting that it’s still rising even during this downturn.

img190.imageshack.us/img190/5350/graphsectorldebtpercent.jpg

(eventually this will probably show up as a double post)

 
Comment by packman
2009-06-15 11:22:38

And lastly the sum total (starting in 1945 since most data starts then). IMO not a pretty picture.

img190.imageshack.us/img190/7793/graphtotaldebtpercentofn.jpg

Sustainable?

Sane, even?

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 11:29:38
Comment by desertdweller
2009-06-15 21:13:10

Link worked both times. Good going !

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-06-15 11:13:43

It didn’t go through immediately, but it seems like it posted fast for a link. I didn’t pay attention to when I submitted that, but I don’t think I was away from the computer more than an hour before I came back and saw my and your comments.

Comment by hip in zilker
2009-06-15 11:55:33

that was for drumminj, I don’t know why it posted here

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 11:22:27

Bill Ford Jr: US Government Needs Industrial Policy
Monday 06/15/2009 11:13 AM ET - Dow Jones News
By Jeff Bennett
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

DETROIT -(Dow Jones)- Ford Motor Co. (F) Chairman Bill Ford Jr. said the U.S. government needs to set a national industrial policy that pulls together academia, industry and the private sector in order to boost the country’s competitiveness.
“The industrial base is eroding and prosperous nations don’t let their industries erode,” Ford said during the National Summit in Detroit Monday. “Government, industry and academia all have to be on the same page. Too many times they throw bombs at each other rather than working together.”
More than 100 executives from around the country are meeting in Detroit over the next three days to discuss policies, technologies and manufacturing. Ford, along with Dow Chemical Co. (DOW) Chief Executive Andrew Liveris plan to use the discussion to lobby President Barack Obama’s administration to forge a new energy and industrial policy that covers the entire country.
“We need a sane energy policy,” Liveris said in a speech. “For too long that has been an oxymoron. “Everyone has to contribute. We also must invest in all types of alternative energy because we just don’t know which ones will work.”
Separately, Ford backed Obama’s move to bail out Chrysler Group LLC and General Motors Corp. (GM) because it protected the supply base. Uncontrolled bankruptcies by GM and Chrysler could have shut the suppliers who provide parts to Ford. However, Ford once again defended his company’s decision not to take federal aid.
“We can make quick decisions and long-term decisions without getting distracted,” Ford said. “We can also remain focused on our customers.”
Ford also said he believes the federal government will be involved in GM for “some time” although he didn’t elaborate. The U.S. Treasury provided more than $20 billion in low-interest loans to GM to keep the company operating while it undergoes the bankruptcy process. GM filed for bankruptcy protection on June 1. Once it emerges, the federal government will own about 60% of GM. Chrysler filed for bankruptcy on April 30, underwent bankruptcy and merged its assets with Fiat SpA (FIATY). The government owns an 8% stake in Chrysler.

 
Comment by WT Economist
2009-06-15 11:54:49

Effect of the recession on poor people: more doubling up. This article gets the point on page three.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/opinion/14ehrenreich.html?em

“The most common coping strategy, though, is simply to increase the number of paying people per square foot of dwelling space — by doubling up or renting to couch-surfers. It’s hard to get firm numbers on overcrowding, because no one likes to acknowledge it to census-takers, journalists or anyone else who might be remotely connected to the authorities. At the legal level, this includes Peg taking in her daughter and two grandchildren in a trailer with barely room for two, or my nephew and his wife preparing to squeeze all four of them into what is essentially a one-bedroom apartment. But stories of Dickensian living arrangements abound.”

Sounds like what recent college grads have been living like in NYC because of the bubble before the bust, but I digress.

“People who’ve lost their jobs, or at least their second jobs, cope by doubling or tripling up in overcrowded apartments, or by paying 50 or 60 or even 70 percent of their incomes in rent.”

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 12:14:06

“I claim the non-lumpy couch!” = the new ownership society

 
Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 12:14:31

doubling or tripling up in overcrowded apartments ?

Quite common for many ethic groups around here..

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 12:42:47

Years ago, I rented a room in the home of a lady who’d just separated from her husband. It was a beautiful old house in the Highland Park section of Pittsburgh, but it was clearly too much for her to handle by herself. She did have a son, but he was only 12, so he couldn’t help with the expenses.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-06-15 13:23:03

WT:

saw 3 more new Illegal basement/ garage constructions going on this week walking home from the 7 train…..I don’t think they were new owners since their is no evidence of any outside remodeling and I’ve not seen any dumpsters recently in my area.

The one that is converting the front 1 car garage into a living dining room with a big picture window might squeak by.

Comment by scdave
2009-06-15 14:52:02

that is converting the front 1 car garage into a living dining room ??

Interesting you both say that..I just spoke with my “plumber” brother today asking him if he has found any work…He said he just did a Illegal bath & kitchen for a guy’s garage so he could rent it out to help with the mortgage…

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-06-15 23:45:21

Yes Dave technically its a unfinished basement that is above ground 1/2 is a garage and the other is laundry storage family room etc, so most people already have a water hookups..or a bath/shower there, just add a kitchen and a big window and it could pass especially if you have a 2nd egress/back door

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 12:11:42

Boeing shut out of orders race at Paris Air Show.
No orders for Boeing, damp skies at Paris Air Show clouded by recession, Flight 447 crash.

LE BOURGET, France (AP) — Boeing didn’t score a single jet order and its competitor Airbus didn’t fare that much better on Monday’s opening day of the Paris Air Show, where the mood among the world’s aviation industry leaders was as damp as the weather.

Worries about the unexplained crash of Air France Flight 447 hung in the air as airlines and planemakers gathered at the 100th anniversary of the world’s first and largest air show. Pouring rain at the Le Bourget air field, combined with plunging revenue, layoffs and unprecedented losses in the industry, set the stage for a modest gathering.

While defiant Boeing Co. executives said the overall prospects were robust, the Chicago-based aviation giant reported no new orders Monday. Airbus announced just one, from Qatar Airways, for 24 jets from the A320 family worth $1.9 billion.

At the opening day of the industry’s last major show, in Farnborough, England, a year ago, airlines from oil-rich Middle Eastern countries booked orders for about 150 planes worth more than $25 billion.

Gulf-based carriers were among the few pulling out their checkbooks this year.

Qatar Airways’ head, Akbar al-Baker, announced firm orders for 20 single-aisle A320s and confirmed a commitment for four A321 jets announced last year at the Farnborough Air Show.

He said the deal announced Monday is worth $1.9 billion, which is about the same as the list price. Airlines, however, usually negotiate steep discounts to catalog prices, particularly during grim economic times.

Meanwhile, Rolls-Royce PLC signed a $1.5 billion order with Gulf Air to supply engines for the Bahrain-based airline’s new Airbus A330 long-haul aircraft. The British aircraft engine manufacturer will supply Trent 700EP engines to power 20 Airbus A330 aircraft, with deliveries beginning in 2012.

Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-06-15 14:42:40

Orders is one thing…..actually deliveries is another…..

I’d say Airbus is toast (the A380 and A400 will sink them), but they are another one of those “too big to fail” entities.

 
 
Comment by Sweeping Changes
2009-06-15 12:13:32

Curse words etc.
my health insurance just went up.
astonished and etc.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-06-15 12:56:51

I’m looking forward to dropping my self-employed health insurance (which sucks shhhhhh through a straw) and going on the (forthcoming, I hope) public plan.

 
Comment by drumminj
2009-06-15 13:26:36

Deflation at it’s finest, eh? Mine went up too (for COBRA). Well, it would have, except they dropped me and the person investigating my case is AWOL.

Anyone know of a service that’ll go to the office of gov’t bureaucrats that you’re dealing with with a Louisville Slugger in hand and ensure the situation gets resolved right away? Perhaps a good business idea in this economic climate? You could double as a collection agency for the hard-money lenders?

 
 
Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-06-15 12:16:48

So much for the “green shoots”

Was in ICT on Friday…….Cessna is sending out another 800 WARN notices on june 19. Another 500 will go out between the first part of July, and August 19.

In addition, they had a “non-paid” furlough program for the salaried exepmts and others, requiring that they take four weeks of unpaid leave before the end of November or thereabouts…….requirement has been upped to seven weeks.

Don’t know if these are to lay off all the engineering types associated with the new “Columbus” (a crappy name, IMO) that is being delayed/terminated.

It will be interesting to see how many of these jobs come back…..Cessna was just starting to build wire harnesses in Mexico. Bombardier plans to build the complete Lear 85 there (as I recall). It would simplify the transfer of all the tooling to offshore sites if there wasn’t anyone at the factory to raise a ruckus.

Evidently, $15-20/hour (plus benefits) US labor has priced themselves out of the market. Wage deflation is real, and until someone gets a handle on it, it isn’t going to matter what happens to the housing market

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-06-15 13:48:44

Yeah, I was relating the Cessna story to some folks over the weekend. IMHO, it’s a huge story and a lot of folks don’t even know how big, as those cuts you mention mean some ~50% have, or will be laid off.

Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-06-15 14:59:34

They had 15,000 employees a year ago……the plan is the get down to 6-7,000 or so (worldwide).

When I was there in 1986, at about the same employment level, the only departments running at Wallace was the Citation Service Center, Field Service, Engineering, and one shift on the C-650 and S550 lines, and the paint and interiors shops. Rest of the plant was filled with half-finished propjets, piston twins and Caravans. The Caravans were the only ones that ever actually flew, eventually.

Ever heard of a C-435? A C-441 with PT-6’s, instead of Garretts. They had one prototype about this time, was thrown on the scrap pile along with all the other piston and turbine twins. It would have kicked butt……….

Immediately after/during all of this, Cessna bacame a subsidiary of General Dynamics.

 
 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-06-15 12:43:23

“Ponzi scheme targeted Korean Americans”

http://tinyurl.com/lrwgku

A Danville man is facing civil and criminal charges in federal court for allegedly defrauding 500 investors of $80 million in a Ponzi scheme and using the money to pay the mortgage on his multimillion-dollar home, authorities said Tuesday.

Affinity fraud sucks!

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 14:16:21

Cut the guy some slack — at least he was paying his mortgage, unlike myriads who are living in their homes for free with yet another foreclosure moratorium in place.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 14:17:26

P.S. As a young lady who grew up in Utarr, why does it not surprise me that you are familiar with affinity fraud?

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-06-15 21:05:06

Sigh….
sooooo true. Alas.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 21:37:19

Sound too good to be true? Scams are on the rise
By Lois M. Collins
Deseret News
Published: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:26 p.m. MDT

You’re either a very fine employee or a great customer of a local retail chain, the letter says. It doesn’t matter which, because either one’s getting you the reward of easy money and a fun part-time job as a shadow shopper. All you have to do is deposit the enclosed check for $1,950, wire $1,500 of it to a designated address, then shop away, buying the item of your choice — which you get to keep, along with extra money.

Oh, happy, lucky, glorious day, or — once the scam you’ve just gone for falls apart — oh, crappy, yucky, inglorious day as you try to straighten it out.

Scammers are again working some old favorites in Utah and beyond. And you deposit the unexpected windfall at great peril, said Kevin Olsen, director of Utah’s Division of Consumer Protection.

There are variations, from the shadow shopper scam to variations on sweepstakes and lotteries. The clue you’re being conned is a check that you’re to deposit and instructions to take some of the money — or your own money while you wait for their money — and send it somewhere else. And if there’s an instruction to “wire” money somewhere, said Olsen, “that should have bells and whistles everywhere, screaming ‘don’t do it.’ ”

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 12:46:33

Jun 15, 2009, 1:27 p.m. EST
Home builders’ sales expectations fade slightly
By Rex Nutting, MarketWatch

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — U.S. home builders grew more pessimistic in June about sales over the medium term, sending their monthly sentiment index down one point to 15, the National Association of Home Builders reported Monday.

It was the first decline in the index since it fell to an all-time low of 8 in January.

At 15, the index shows that about one in six home builders thinks the market is “good.” The index peaked at 72 four years ago and was at 18 a year ago.

Economists expected the index to remain at 16 in June. See Economic Calendar.

The decline in builder sentiment in June was concentrated in the sales outlook, and among builders in the South, the largest region for home construction. Builders in other regions grew more optimistic compared with May.

The sub-index measuring expected sales over the next six months fell to 26 in June from 27 in May.

“Home builders are facing a few headwinds, including the expiration of the tax credit at the end of November; a recent upturn in interest rates; and especially the continuing lack of credit for housing production loans,” said Joe Robson, a builder from Tulsa, Okla., who is president of the builders’ trade association.

The sub-index measuring builders’ attitudes about current sales remained deeply pessimistic at 14, unchanged from May. The sub-index for traffic of prospective buyers remained at 13 for the third straight month.

The index fell by three points in the South to 15. It rose by two points in the West to 14, rose one point in the Northeast to 20 and rose one point in the Midwest to 15.

The release comes a day before the Commerce Department reports on its estimates for housing starts and building permits in May. Over time, the NAHB index and housing starts are highly correlated. Starts are down 54% in the past year and down 80% from the peak. Economists surveyed by MarketWatch are forecasting a 6% increase in starts to a 485,000 seasonally adjusted annual rate from a record-low 458,000 in April.

Starts of single-family homes have been essentially flat for the past four months near a record-low level after falling 80% from the peak.

Builders are still working off a massive oversupply of new homes. It’s taking a record 10.9 months to sell a home after it is completed.

The number of unsold new-homes on the market remains high in relation to sales at 10.1 months’ worth of sales, but the total number of homes on the market - 297 in April — is close to the average that prevailed before the housing bubble grew. Builders are making slow progress in reducing unsold inventories.

Builders are also competing against a record number of foreclosures and against desperate bankers and homeowners who need to sell quickly.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-06-15 12:56:57

FDA Regulation Brings Prescription-Strength Cigarettes
by Scott Ott

(2009-06-11) — Smokers and tobacco companies alike hailed today’s Senate approval of a landmark bill to place cigarettes under the regulatory hand of the Food and Drug Administration.

For smokers, the bill offers the promise of prescription-strength cigarettes in the near future.

“For some of us, over-the-counter cigarettes no longer deliver enough of the soothing effect we need,” said one unnamed Senate aide enjoying a break just outside the Capitol building. “I can’t wait to ask my doctor about prescription-strength mentholated Newports.”

A spokesman for Philip Morris welcomed the opportunity to have FDA regulate his company’s product.

“Until now, cigarettes were considered deadly weapons,” said the unnamed source. “Under the FDA, our smokes will have to be either a food or a drug. So, we’ll be allowed to advertise on TV again. I can see it now — a beautiful woman, smiles as she dances among the waving tobacco leaves. As the announcer says, ‘Of course, Virginia Slims are not for everyone’.”

Comment by Dr. Fager
2009-06-15 13:39:54

Please tell me this is from the Onion.

Comment by hip in zilker
2009-06-15 19:42:06

I was going to just say ‘it’s from wmbz,’ but then I googled the first line and got:

“FDA Regulation Brings Prescription-Strength Cigarettes
ScappleFace (satire) - ‎Jun 11, 2009‎”

But I’m sure that it can bring days of rage…

 
 
Comment by Muddyfoot
2009-06-15 14:28:52

What brand does Barry smoke? Man that would be funny to see cig ads on TV again! The disclaimers at the end would run more than 60 seconds.

 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-06-15 13:45:27

Green shoot shot:

It’s being reported here that Chicagoland is losing another long time furniture store chain. Last year it was Wickes Furniture and now this summer the 78 year old Plunkett chain will liquidate.

IKEA furniture, BTW, is really more suitable to today’s reality anyway. Cheap and disposable it’s easier to part with when it comes time to move back home or cram into a 1 bdrm condo.

Comment by X-GSfixer
2009-06-15 15:02:39

Or just leave/abandon when you move out.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 13:45:34

From yesterday’s last thread: I am sure sorry I missed it!

“Rob Frederiksen was deep in the pit when he got the call over his radio about 2 p.m.: ‘Tell everyone to grab their tools and come up out of the hole.’ I got on the job and I thought, ‘I’m pretty lucky to be here,’ he said. ‘I thought, ‘I’m here for another 18 months.’ Then ka-pow.’”

 
Comment by dimedropped
2009-06-15 14:09:38

Reported in our local paper here in Orlando…Gated Community…..”Father kills family and then himself”. The article goes on to say the family had hit on hard fianancial times.

The community is Heathrow and the home they occupied was a mid $300’s home. He worked at Lowes and she had just lost her job.

This is a 40’s something couple with 2 young kids, now dead.

How does this happen? How can your financial situation drive you to murder your family? We hear it all the time and I just cannot fathom it. It saddens me terribly.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 14:14:58

‘Gated Community…..”Father kills family and then himself”.’

I thought the point of living in a gated community was to keep out those who might want to harm your family. Looks like the concept sort of backfired in this case…

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-06-15 17:33:52

Who “gates” the “gaters”?

 
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-06-15 14:40:21

As a painter at my (former) house said while discussing an investor’s demise (he was painting the guy’s investment property as well) and who was recovering from his own divorce and financial problems:

“There is always a way out of even the worst situations. It might be painful for awhile, but there’s always a solution.”

I can’t even imagine what could be so bad that one feels the need to take his/others lives.

Gee, dude, you’ll have to live with some amount of embarrassment, eat a little crow with your friends, and work harder to get yourself back on track. Nut up and figure it out. And if you can’t find a way at least give the others the chance to figure it out after you’re gone instead of taking them with you. Lame. And sad.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-06-15 15:03:28

I guess Brittney and Justin would be made fun of at school if their I-phone was disconnected for non payment…oh the horror

——————-
I just cannot fathom it

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-06-16 01:51:57

I’ve been through hard times. Really hard times.

It ain’t for sissies.

Killing yourself? Fine. Killing your family? Straight to hell you SOB.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 14:38:07

Things are looking good for Shiller and his ilk. I just hope they remember to include the budget constraint in their behavioral models, as you can’t normally spend money you don’t have, and you can’t squeeze blood out of a turnip. One should also never forget the role of the Fed and other high-level market manipulators in appearing to distort rational behavior through rewarding big bank stupidity with bailouts.

Crisis of faith for high priests of rational markets
By Gillian Tett
Published: June 15 2009 18:37 | Last updated: June 15 2009 18:37

A new realisation has dawned among the most fervent advocates of financial analysis and collective investor wisdom – markets are not always rational.

For the past five decades, the Chartered Financial Analyst Institute has been teaching the tenets of analysis based on efficient markets to tens of thousands of adherents around the world who work in the banks, fund mangers and investment houses that make-up the global financial system.

Now, however, the credit crisis has forced the high priests of rational market theory to question their own creed.

The British CFA recently asked its members for the first time if they trusted in “market efficiency” – and discovered that more than two-thirds of respondents no longer believed that market prices reflected all available information.

More startling still, 77 per cent of the CFA group also “strongly” or “very strongly” disagreed that investors in aggregate behaved “rationally” – in apparent defiance of the “wisdom of crowds” idea that has driven much investment theory.

The shift is significant as the assumption of efficient markets is a cornerstone of the financial calculations of valuing everything from stocks to pension fund liabilities to executive compensation.

William Goodhart, UK chief executive of the CFA, on Monday admitted that the results showed a new mood of “questioning” following the financial crisis.

However, the trend appears to reflect a wider intellectual swing. In the past three decades, the global asset management industry has been dominated by the so-called “efficient markets” hypothesis, which has given birth to ideas such as the capital asset pricing model, that portrays investing as a trade-off between risk and return.

But the extremities of the recent market swings has sparked interest among politicians and investors in the field of behavioural finance, which asserts that markets do not behave rationally, but can be driven by human emotions such as fear. “We are seeing huge demand among clients to talk about behavioural finance now,” says James Montier, a senior strategist at Société Générale, and an expert in behavioural finance.

Comment by packman
2009-06-15 19:29:37

This is exactly why we are a Republic and not a Democracy - or at least are supposed to be. Crowds generally are stupid, and will indeed follow shallow trends. The idea of a Republic is to elect leaders who are smarter than the general public, and have them make the bulk of the decisions, with checks and balances in place.

Unfortunately somewhere along the way it all went really wrong…

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-06-16 01:58:43

Once again close but no cigar.

Any economic model that leaves out fraud and “gaming” is naive at best.

 
 
Comment by salinasron
2009-06-15 16:41:23

Here’s how they think they’ll fix the system. Only problem is if I draw a pension in CA but live in Texas how can they legally tax my pension in CA and Texas. They were legally forced to stop that action over 10yrs ago.

‘TAX ON PENSION DISTRIBUTION AND HEALTH
CARE BENEFITS. INITIATIVE STATUTE. Imposes
additional annual taxes on California residents who re-
ceive income in excess of $40,000 from pension distribu-
tion, social security, and cash value of health care bene-
fits. May impose a one-time, additional tax on non-
California residents whose pension benefits exceed
$50,000 in a year, and who earned income in California.
Summary of estimate by Legislative Analyst and Director
of Finance of fiscal impact on state and local government:
Annual state revenue increases of up to $6 million to $8
million beginning in 2010 from new taxes on pension
benefits. Revenues likely would decline over time due to
changes in behavior.

The Secretary of State’s tracking number for this meas-
ure is 1360 and the Attorney General’s tracking number is
09-0006.

The proponent for the measure, Paul McCauley, must
collect signatures of 433, 971 registered voters – the
number equal to 5% of the total votes cast for governor in the 2006 gubernatorial election – in order to qualify it for the ballot. The proponent has 150 days to circulate petitions for this measure, meaning the signatures must be collected by October 15, 2009.

Lastly and for Paul McCauley’s edification - CalPERS
generated nearly 35 billion in economic activ-
ity in California from its in-state investments,
retirement benefits paid to members, and the
health payments it made on behalf of its
members in 2006.’

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 17:52:16

“They were legally forced to stop that action over 10yrs ago.”

Sounds like lots of CA retirees may soon be snapping up empty Arizona houses.

 
 
Comment by Rancher
2009-06-15 17:23:23

5,115 retired California government workers receive pensions in excess of $100,000 from CalPERS.

They’re all listed here.

The information below was obtained under the Freedom of Information Act
from the California Public Employees Retirement System (CalPERS).
This list may be be updated periodically with more pensioners as more data is obtained, our data sources will be listed at the bottom of this page:

http://www.californiapensionreform.com/c….

BRUCE MALKENHORST 499,674.84 VERNON
JOAQUIN FUSTER 296,555.88 UC LOS ANGELES
DONALD GERTH 278,054.64 CSU SACRAMENTO
JAMES STAHL 265,740.96 L A CO SANIT #2
JOHN SCHLAG 255,600.48 UC LOS ANGELES
WILLIAM GARRETT 254,745.72 EL CAJON
RAYMOND PATCHETT 239,635.80 CARLSBAD
ROBERT TOONE JR 232,947.36 PALMDALE
DIANNE OKI 231,164.16 STATE COMP INS
CARL BORONKAY 224,812.80 METROPOLITAN WT

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 17:57:50

Dumb questions of the day, with answers:

Q1. What is a long-term Treasury bond?

A1. It is a stream of future dollar payments, made in exchange for a payment in current dollars.

Q2. What happens when the Fed uses quantitative easing to purchase newly-issued l-t T-bonds?

A2. It uses dollars that it just created out of thin air to purchase a newly-created promise to make a stream of future dollar payments, thereby increasing the both the current and promised future flow of dollars into the economy.

Comment by AbsoluteBeginner
2009-06-15 18:34:46

It is almost like kids thought this thing up….

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-06-15 19:56:21

thanks,prof

 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-06-15 18:09:04

Using the list of all 789 dealerships to be closed, WND found that owners contributed $450,000 to GOP presidential candidates; $7,970 to Sen. Hillary Clinton; $2,200 to John Edwards and $450 to Barack Obama. For the “progressives” out there, that’s a 1000-to-1 ratio of GOP-to-Obama donations for closed dealerships.

Item 2: Dealership conglomerate RLJ is owned by Democrat bigwigs Mack McLarty and Robert Johnson. RLJ magically happened to keep all six (6) of their dealerships while its competitors were shuttered. McLarty is a former Clinton chief-of-staff and Robert Johnson (founder of BET) is a major Democrat fundraiser. These politically connected, powerful Democrat supporters were completely insulated from the closings in every market in which they compete.

Item 3: Democratic donor Sidney Deboer is Chairman of Lithia Motors. He donated over $14,000 to Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) and Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY). Lithia Motors lost only two of its 29 dealerships while gaining as many as five additional ones in the resulting carnage. Deboer was also insulated from Chrysler’s closings.

Item 4: Steven B. Fader contributed the individual maximum to Hillary Clinton for her 2008 campaign: $4,600. Fader is listed as owning four dealerships. Two of those dealerships are in Virginia Beach, VA: Hall Chrysler Jeep and Hall Dodge.

In the Virginia Beach area, Fader’s competitor Grafton Dodge (in Grafton, VA) was shuttered. Grafton is owned by L. A. Julien, Jr., who does not appear to have contributed to either party. Another Fader competitor, Tysinger Motor Company was also closed. Tysinger is owned by Mark Tysinger, who also does not appear to have contributed to either party. Fader’s two dealerships in the same city remain open, while nearby competitors were shuttered.

Another Fader dealership that remains open is Heritage Chrysler in Baltimore, MD. Nearby dealers that were closed include Antwerpen Dodge of Randallstown, MD owned by Jacob Antwerpen (no contributions founds); SKS Auto-Park of Baltimore; Bel-Air Dodge of Baltimore; and Schaefer & Strohminger Dodge Towson of Baltimore. The latter three are owned by Louis M. Schaefer, who has no contributions of any kind listed. Put simply, Fader’s dealership remained whole while four area competitors were wiped out.

The final Fader dealership is Motorworld Chrysler, in Wilkes Barre, PA. It remains open while nearby Pompey Dodge of Kingston, PA and Ertley Chrysler Jeep Dodge of Moosic, PA were both closed. Charles W. Pompey and Ronald D. Ertley are the owners, respectively, and neither contributed to any candidates in 2006 or 2008. Much of Fader’s competition in this area was also wiped out.

Comment by hip in zilker
2009-06-15 19:57:59

Hasn’t this been debunked by statisticians that show that most dealerships closing are Republican donors, since most dealers are Republicans?

Comment by cobaltblue
2009-06-15 21:06:39

Actually, there’s nothing to “debunk” in the first place, except for the myth that ObamACORN is somehow striving for the “common man”or the “common good”.

Obama the mobster is just trying to grab as much of the common man’s “money” as he and his thugs can, before they are shut down.

Think Al Capone, another Chi-town crowd favorite.

 
 
 
Comment by Mad Boy
2009-06-15 19:17:00

No bubble in Madison, but the city needs to spend money to prevent foreclosures

http://www.cityofmadison.com/news/view.cfm?news_id=1522

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 22:13:36

The denialists are pinning their hopes on a revival of the currently defunct securitization market. I guess time will tell whether I am just too pessimistic and the model can be resurrected through fine tuning. At any rate, I definitely need to restock my popcorn supply soon.

Wall Street Journal
* BUSINESS
* JUNE 16, 2009

Securities Revamp Has Its Doubters on Street

By LIZ RAPPAPORT and SERENA NG

The Obama administration’s planned revamp of securitization doesn’t go much beyond what is already in the works, raising doubts on Wall Street about whether the plan will fix the market chiefly responsible for the global credit crisis.

As part of its broad financial regulatory overhaul to be unveiled Wednesday, the government would urge Congress to force lenders to share in the risk of the loans they make and package into securities. It also would tighten rules for credit-ratings agencies in an effort to prevent a recurrence of the massive bubble that grew in the subprime-mortgage debt market in recent years.

But many of the planned changes — such as creating new a ratings scale for “structured” securities and forcing lenders to have “skin in the game” — have either already been implemented or are part of existing proposals by lawmakers and regulators.

The securitization markets allow lenders to sell the loans they make to banks, which bundle them into securities and sell those to investors around the world. The securities collapsed after the underlying loans given to subprime borrowers went bad. While parts of the market have revived somewhat with federal assistance, the market for bonds backed by mortgages has continued to struggle outside of government-controlled entities Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 22:21:11

It sounds like the Treasury has failed to solve the too big problem, which is not whatsoever surprising, considering the players and their masters. Kudos to the Wall Street Journal for shooting from the hip and pointing out where this plan fails to address the root cause of the endless series of crises which fuel disaster capitalism. I prize my subscription and plan to keep renewing it so long as I can afford the bill.

What we really need is some Teddy Roosevelt-style trust bustin’. How about it, Mr. Turbo Tax Decider?

* The Wall Street Journal
* HEARD ON THE STREET
* JUNE 16, 2009

Banks: Too Big to Fail, Too Big to Solve

By PETER EAVIS

Never again.

Catastrophes often give rise to ambitious new organizations aimed at preventing future debacles. The Obama administration is thinking big as it sets up a new financial regulatory regime to prevent nightmares like the collapse and bailout of American International Group.

But the Treasury’s proposed reforms still appear to leave the door open to substantial taxpayer support of ailing financial behemoths. And for investors, this means the prices of bank debt and equities could remain distorted for years.

The weakest Treasury proposal is one that gives the government the power to seize large financial firms it deems systemically dangerous. The problem: The plans don’t clearly set out how creditors and other stakeholders in the firm would be treated in a seizure. That means two big risks. Instead of typical court-based bankruptcy proceedings, wind-down outcomes would be decided ad hoc by regulators. This could increase uncertainty, pushing up borrowing costs for banks.

An alternative risk is that creditors assume they will always be protected, leading to an underpricing of credit to the financial sector. That is likely the greater risk, given most policy makers seem to believe letting Lehman Brothers go bankrupt was a mistake.

The Treasury’s plans don’t deal with the size issue, either. There doesn’t appear to be any blueprint for stopping firms becoming “too big” in the first place. This could prove a mistake after recent consolidation in the financial sector. The “big four” account for an estimated 70% of all assets held by domestically chartered U.S. banks. These same banks accounted for just less than half at the end of 2000. And it isn’t clear how big a firm has to be to become considered a systemic risk. Bear Stearns, with $395 billion in assets, was hardly a global giant, and yet authorities feared its collapse could damage the wider economy.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 22:30:13

Does TTT have time to listen to Volcker, or is he so preoccupied with his own grandiose vision of how to fix the too-big-to-fail problem that he willfully disregards someone who apparently understands it quite well?

And is my memory slipping, or didn’t the Fed allow the surviving remnants of Megabank, Inc instantaneously requalify themselves last fall as depository institutions in order to summarily capture the benefit of the FDIC guarantee?

Wall Street Journal
* OPINION
* JUNE 16, 2009

Moral Hazard and the Crisis
Volcker: Hedge funds don’t need to be regulated like banks.

Editor’s note: The following is from the keynote address by former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul A. Volcker to a meeting of the International Institute of Finance in Beijing, June 11:

Another important common concern is the “too big to fail” syndrome — the presumption that an institution is so large or so inter-connected with counterparties that its creditors (possibly even shareholders) must be protected. One unfortunate consequence of the massive public assistance provided both banks and nonbanks in dealing with the present crisis is that moral hazard may, I am afraid, become more deeply embedded.

We can, and we should, take steps to limit the need and possibility of official “bailouts.” One approach would be to set clear policy limits to access to the “official safety net.” Deposit insurance and central bank liquidity facilities are properly confined to deposit-taking institutions. It is, after all, those institutions that remain the backbone of the financial system. They provide basic essential services, meeting the needs of households, businesses and other institutions for credit, for a safe and liquid repository for their funds, and for both everyday and complex payment services.

Historically, the need for continuity in those functions has provided the rationale for close government supervision and protection. In my view, it is unwarranted that those same institutions, funded in substantial part by taxpayer-protected deposits, be engaged in substantial risk-prone proprietary trading and speculative activities that may also raise questions of virtually unmanageable conflicts of interest.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 23:17:28

SPECIAL REPORT Road to Rescue
Big banks still not lending
Loan volume at the 21 largest recipients of government funding fell 7% during the month of April, according to a survey by the Treasury Department.

By David Ellis, CNNMoney.com staff writer
June 15, 2009: 4:21 PM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — Lending at the nation’s top banks slowed in April, according to a government report published Monday, driven in part by continued deterioration in the U.S. economy.

The dollar amount of new loans issued by the 21 biggest recipients of taxpayer funds under the government’s Troubled Assets Relief Program, or TARP, fell 7% to $273 billion from nearly $295 billion during the month of March.

Regulators attributed part of the decline to lower demand for new commercial and industrial loans, which fell nearly 29% during the month as U.S. businesses broadly avoided acquisitions, building plants and buying inventory.

Weakness was also notable across a wide variety of consumer loan categories, including first mortgages and credit cards. Of the 21 banks that took part in the survey, 15 reported a decline in loan originations, according to the Treasury Department.

Banks have been under pressure to increase lending since the government provided billions of dollars in aid to help prop up the industry last fall.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 23:19:38

Kill the TARP, kill the green shoots meme.

Kill TARP, spare the taxpayer
Two members of Congress are looking to wind down the controversial bailout program sooner rather than later. But doing so may be easier said than done.
By David Ellis, CNNMoney.com staff writer
Last Updated: June 15, 2009: 11:37 AM ET

ROAD TO RESCUE

* Big banks still not lending
* Kill TARP, spare the taxpayer
* Citi, World Bank cut $1.25B trade fund deal
* Recession fears cripple stocks
* Treasury rally widens

Bailout tracker
Follow the money: Bailout tracker
The government is engaged in a far-reaching - and expensive - effort to rescue the economy. Here’s how you can keep tabs on the bailouts. More

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — For some, the slow, steady demise of TARP cannot happen soon enough.

Last week, 10 of the nation’s largest financial firms won their release from the Treasury Department’s Troubled Asset Relief Program, setting the stage for them to pay back the billions of dollars the government loaned them last fall.

But this news was book-ended by legislation in the House and Senate that aims to end the controversial program sooner rather than later.

Rep. Jeb Hensarling, R-Texas, whose proposal would effectively shutter TARP by year’s end, would prevent the Treasury Department from using any of the TARP money returned by banks to lend back out to other struggling firms.

A much bolder approach unveiled Thursday by Sen. John Thune, R-S.D., would require the government to sell its ownership interests by July 2010. It would also prevent the government from owning a piece of any U.S. company in the future.

“I can’t tell you how many people in my state, as I traveled, are now coming up unsolicited, very concerned about the increasing intervention of the federal government into the private marketplace and the implications that that has for our economy,” Thune said at a press conference Thursday.

When Treasury first unveiled TARP last October, the belief was that the government would maintain its stake in banks and other financial firms through 2012, or at least until the banks were healthy enough to return taxpayer funds.

But TARP’s enemies have multiplied as the program has morphed from a vehicle for purchasing toxic loans and securities from banks into a lifeline for all types of ailing companies, including automakers and insurers.

Members of Congress, who begrudgingly approved the program last fall at the behest of regulators, have howled incessantly at its cost and scope.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-06-15 23:35:46

Little relief in new California foreclosure law
By Eve Mitchell
Bay Area News Group
Posted: 06/15/2009 09:17:07 PM PDT
Updated: 06/15/2009 09:19:27 PM PDT

Lenders in California must put off foreclosure proceedings for 90 days in situations in which they have not made an effort to work with borrowers to modify the terms of their mortgages, under a state law that took effect Monday.

But don’t expect automatic or immediate relief under the law, written by state Sen. Ellen Corbett, D-San Leandro.

Lenders and loan services that already have a comprehensive loan modification program in place are exempt from the law. Such programs call for loans to be modified by lowering interest rates for at least five years, deferring or reducing part of the principal, or providing for up to 40 years to repay the loan.

“The vast majority of them are already in compliance with some regulation or requirement, either through federal laws or voluntary efforts,” said Chris George, president of San Ramon-based CMG Mortgage Services and a board member of the California Mortgage Bankers Association.

By applying for an exemption, lenders will automatically receive a 30-day stay during which state officials will determine whether the company has a proper loan modification program in place.

“If they do not have a plan in effect, they will be (subject) to that 90-day moratorium,” George said.

Sean O’Toole of ForeclosureRadar, a service that tracks California foreclosures, said he doesn’t think the law will make a real difference in the number of foreclosures. “It’s a law you could drive a truck through,”
he said. “All you have to do is put in a loan modification program.”

Comment by Sweeping Changes
2009-06-16 07:52:31

All those homeowners who bit the golden apple will be ’saved’

 
 
Name (required)
E-mail (required - never shown publicly)
URI
Your Comment (smaller size | larger size)
You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

Trackback responses to this post