Bits Bucket For June 20 2009
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The Housing Bubble
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
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Name:Ben Jones
Location:Northern Arizona, United States
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Banks in Georgia, North Carolina, Kansas Closed by Regulators.
By Margaret Chadbourn and Ari Levy
June 20 (Bloomberg) — Banks in Georgia, North Carolina and Kansas with total assets of $1.5 billion were closed yesterday, bringing this year’s tally of failures in the U.S. to 40 amid the highest unemployment in a quarter century.
State regulators shut Southern Community bank of Fayetteville, Georgia and Cooperative Bank in Wilmington, North Carolina. The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency closed First National Bank of Anthony, Kansas. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. was named as receiver for all three, according to statements from the FDIC.
Southern Community’s $307 million in deposits were bought by United Community Bank of Blairsville, Georgia, and most of Cooperative’s $774 million in deposits went to First Bank in Troy, North Carolina, the FDIC said. Bank of Kansas in South Hutchinson acquired First Bank’s $142.5 million in deposits. The acquiring banks are taking over a combined $1.47 billion in assets, mostly loans, from the failed institutions, and signed agreements with the FDIC to share more than 80 percent of the losses with the government.
“The loss-sharing arrangement is projected to maximize returns on the assets covered by keeping them in the private sector,” the FDIC said in each statement. “The agreement also is expected to minimize disruptions for loan customers.”
Regulators this year have closed the most banks since 1993, as the loss of jobs contributes to mounting home foreclosures and loan delinquencies. The U.S. economy contracted at a 5.7 percent annual pace in the first quarter. More than a quarter of all states have unemployment rates higher than 10 percent, the Labor Department said yesterday.
Somber pundits are warning that the United States is setting itself up for hyperinflation of the type that wiped out the German middle class in 1923. Consider this: “At 12% of GDP, the U.S. deficit is more than twice as large as that of France. It already owes Japan and China as much as Germany owed its former enemies in reparations - adjusted to today’s money. But America’s debts are far grander than those of Germany in 1923 - even relative to the size of the US economy. Where Germany owed a little over $1 trillion; America - if you include private debt, official government debt, off-budget obligations and internal commitments - owes 100 times as much. And the United States keeps borrowing more. In a single year - 2009 - it will borrow $1.3 trillion, again, just shy of the debt that sank the Weimar Republic.” But we’re smarter than those early 20th century Germans, right? Don’t be too sure.
wmbz’s quoted comments are from the Wikipedia article on “stagflation.” Get out your polyester suits and disco reflector balls again folks, ‘cuz stagflation is about to make an encore appearance.
Cue the Bee Gees.
Stayin’ alive, Stayin’ alive
I liked the Bee Gees, but polyester sucks.
Although I did confess on this blog to having worn a Huk-A-Poo shirt on occasion during that time period. Which brought a sneering jeer or two from a couple of the allegedly more sophisticated CA bloggers, LOL.
You’re cool in my world baby
Anybody remember “shadow dancing”?
“said as stpn2me looks for his teeth, mumbling something about not being old”
You got me looking at that heaven in your eyes
I was chasing your direction, I was telling you no lies
And I was loving you when the words are said,
Baby, I lose my head
And in a world of people, there’s only you and I
There ain’t nothing come between us in the end
How can I hold you when you ain’t even mine?
Only you can see me through, I leave it up to you
Do it light, taking me through the night
Shadow dancing, baby you do it right
Give me more, drag me across the floor
Shadow dancing, all this and nothing more
All that I need is just one moment in your arms
I was chasing your affection, I was doing you no harm
And I was loving you, make it shine, make it rain,
Baby, I know my way
I need that sweet sensation of living in your love
I can’t breath when you’re away, it pulls me down
You are the question and the answer am I
Only you can see me through, I leave it up to you
Do it light, taking me through the night
Shadow dancing, baby you do it right
Give me more, drag me across the floor
Shadow dancing, all this and nothing more
And in this world of people, there’s only you and I
There ain’t nothing come between us in the end
Ah, can I hold you when you ain’t even mine?
Only you can see me through, I leave it up to you
Do it light, taking me through the night
Shadow dancing, baby you do it right
Give me more, drag me across the floor
Shadow dancing, all this and nothing more
-Andy Gibbs
-Songwriters: Maurice, Andy, Barry, and Robin Gibb
Where have you BEEN, SanFran?! I been missing you! I hope you were wallowing in sin with a Mexican pool-boy, because that would make your absence understandable. If not, then I now accuse you of errant neglect.
Guilty as charged. I was across the pond in a little town called London with me mum.
Did you bring a pool boy for your mum as well?
No pool boys, however some of the palace guards looked pretty good
I liked the Bee Gees, but polyester sucks.
I like the Bee Gees (mostly the pre-disco stuff) and polyester — under the proper climatic conditions, at least.
Stagflation: not so much.
I worked catered parties at various private homes of the Bee Gee’s. They were around the North Miami/Miami area a lot back in the day. Oh yeah, Miami is definitely not the place for polyester (except for brief time in winter). It’s one of the schvitzing capitals of America. Can you say flip flops and gaudy gold chains? Viva Cuba Libre! Yeah, whatever.
Get out your WIN buttons and cardigan sweaters, too!
Correction: PlentyPlaints don your WHINE buttons to show what you’re really made of.
I heard on NPR yesterday that oil is up in price but natural gas is not. It was thought oil was up not on demand as much as a hedge against inflation or a falling dollar and natural gas wasn’t. both being energy they should track each other in price and demand.
I might have the story wrong as I was working on the car at the time anyone else hear this ?
both being energy they should track each other in price and demand. No, that’s not so.
—- The USA imports about 60% of its crude oil from abroad. Much of its crude is used for motor fuel, consumption of which tends to increase in the summer.
—- The USA only imports about 13% of its natural gas (nearly all of it from Canada). Very little natural gas is used for motor fuel. Natural gas consumption plunges in summer months & its price tends to fall then.
I leave out the manipulation of commodity prices by investors.
When did it pass 50%? I missed it. I did verify the numbers and yes, it is over 60%.
This is a Bad Thing.
I think Green Day’s 21st Cenury Breakdown will become the soundtrack for these times. Check out the lyrics. Sounds like they lurked here or maybe Denninger’s site for inspiration.
Savings are going up. Spending is going down. That is the fundamental economic trend of the post-Bubble Epoque era.
“Without a genuine return of the tendency of households to consume,” says Dr. Unger, taking the words out of our mouth, “there can’t be, in the United States, a durable economic recovery. Manufacturing is still in sharp decline. It’s only the presence of a large volume of liquidity that permits Wall Street to fantasize about a new phase of economic growth.”
Forget the rally; it’s fake. And forget the ‘green shoots.’ They’ll soon shrivel up in the hot summer sun. There ain’t going to be any real recovery in the immediate future until the mistakes of the recent past are corrected. And that, as we keep saying, takes time.
Yesterday, the Dow rose 58 points. Oil and bonds both stayed put. Gold lost a dollar. And the dollar itself is back to $1.38 per euro.
Nothing very exciting.
But what’s this? It’s the end of the housing decline! For the first time in two years, property prices in Southern California went up last month. Is that good news, or what?
But wait…they only went up because more expensive houses were sold. Apparently, the mortgage market has loosened up enough to permit larger houses to find buyers. Good news for people who want to buy or sell a house for more than $500,000. But we’re not sure it is any indication of a strengthening housing sector. Half the houses sold had been foreclosed.
It’s hard to imagine people bidding up house prices when their savings rates are going up and their spending rates are doing down. The three just don’t go together. Like a top hat, morning coat, and a pair of sneakers. Like Moe, Larry, and Omar…or the father, the sun and the holy tomato. Nah…not likely. Prices may stabilize…but they’re not likely to rise.
And here’s a new forecast from Deutsche Bank that says house prices in the New York area will drop by 40%. All real estate is local, of course. There are bound to be some areas where property prices fall more. And some areas where price declines have already overshot the equilibrium points. These latter areas may experience gains in the bounce-back…but don’t expect any broad recovery in the housing market any time soon.
In fact, says Rob Parenteau, over at the newly revamped Richebächer Letter, the housing market has yet to find its bottom…and will continue to wreak havoc on the global economy.
-B.Bonner
“Without a genuine return of the tendency of households to consume,” says Dr. Unger, taking the words out of our mouth, “there can’t be, in the United States, a durable economic recovery.
WTF? The problem IS that we consume! Or, more accurately, the real problem is that regular consuming is not enough for the economy. We are required to consume stuff faster and faster, so that the companies that make the stuff can clear more profit each year. That’s the motive behind planned obsolesence and deliberately making stuff with slave labor so that it’s cheaper to buy new than to repair.
We are required to consume stuff faster and faster, so that the companies that make the stuff can clear more profit each year. That reaches its limit some time. Maybe the limit has already been passed.
Low interest money for homeowner consumers in the form of home/car loans and credit cards is still abundant and all the press about the credit crunch is hooey.
What will homeowner consumers do with all this available money now that they know they will need to pay off their loans and debt with actual go-to-work, blood sweat & tears income rather than home value appreciation? Will they slow spending? Or maybe the ever hopeful, ever optimistic average homeowner consumer will never accept that reality and keep on spending?
What will happen when these homeowner wage earners reach early 50s as their energy and desire to fight-the-good-fight in the workplace starts to wane and yet they are staring down mounds of debt they will never be able to pay off? Will Americans finally reject the debt-slave mentality or continue to embrace it?
Could one of the more economically erudite poeple on the board respond to a question I have?
If inflation is a purely monetary phenomenon then pritning trillions would seem to bring it on but if people are saving and not spending, how will reatilers justify jacking prices through the roof when nobody is buying?
Horns of a dilemma…………..
Because input prices will be high, so they’ll have to charge high prices to recoup costs.
While individuals (combo, for example
might be stuffing dollars in their mattress, other countries and companies are not. The price of oil and other commodities on the global market will rise due to devaluing of the dollar (due to inflation expectations). As a result, everything - food, plastics, gas, etc, etc - will rise in price. Perhaps sales volume will go down, but retailers can’t continually sell at a loss and stay in business.
Seem plausible to anyone else?
How will fuel prices rise when people stop traveling (airlines are dieing) and fuel piles up in storage facilities. Lower volume will force OPEC members to start cheating to keep their governments afloat. If oil companies thought prices were going to stay high they’d be investing in oil production but the oil services companies are laying people off. Nope I’m still in the deflation camp for now. At some point the music is going to stop and all those invested in oil and commadities as a hedge are going to rush for a chair.
measton, you make a good point regarding supply and demand. But there’s a third factor, and that’s the unit of measure of the price of the good. If that unit of measure were ‘fixed’, so to speak, then yes, as demand dries up (assuming constant supply), then prices fall. But the reality is that due to increase in the money supply (inflation), the unit of measure is effectively getting “smaller”. It’s sort of a third dimension on the supply+demand curve.
As a result, everything - food, plastics, gas, etc, etc - will rise in price. Perhaps sales volume will go down, but retailers can’t continually sell at a loss and stay in business.
DrumminJ, Exactly.Many more will simply go out of business at that point and there will be fewer and fewer products available. Meanwhile, commercial real estate sector will continue to collapse, unemployment will continue to rise and the banks will get even shakier.
Floridians, renew your vehicle reg. and licenses before Sep. 1
I just did it online — avoided additional $7-
http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/article1010447.ece
If economic health is officially defined as the public’s eagerness to buy stuff, then it’s possible that no matter how much debt the Government takes on, its worshipful mouthpieces (i.e., ABC, CNBC, CBS, NBC, PBS, etc.) will declare our financial health restored as soon as sales revenues increase a fraction of a percentage point, regardless of whether these revenues represent increased sales or increased prices.
By excluding fuel and food from inflation statistics, the Government can claim there is no inflation, as GM car prices plummet, “balancing” the numbers. When it comes to politics and propping up ones favorite ideological crackpot, anything can be made to look good or bad.
Pundit Gary North has done a good job laying out the arguments from inflationists and deflationists. His conclusion…deflation doesn’t have a chance.
Anyone who predicts an inevitable price deflation does not understand that the present scenario is the product of legitimately terrified bankers and the Federal Reserve’s Board of Governors. At any time, the FED can get all of the banks’ money lent. But the FED knows that this will double the money supply within weeks. This will create mass price inflation.
This is the central fact in the inflation vs. deflation debate. Until the deflationists answer it with a unified voice, they will remain, as their predecessors remained, people with neither a theoretical nor a practical case for their position.
So, the FED waits. Meanwhile, the Federal government’s share of the economy rises relentlessly because of the deficits. This is not going to change in the next few years.
We are seeing Keynesianism’s last stand. When it fails, the FED will force the banks to lend. Then we will see mass inflation.
This may, indeed, be the case….although North freely admits the money question is presently somewhat stalled. One thing he does not address:
No monetary inflation in the history of humankind has ever not ended! It leads always to the total destruction of the currency involved. Rene Sedillot explained it in the 1950s in his huge catalog of ruined currencies, “All The Monies of the World.”
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north722.html
“…deflation doesn’t have a chance…”
Hummm…
It seems pretty clear that the Fed and other central banks are currently attempting to offset massive fundamental deflationary pressures through adjusting the money supply. What is not yet very clear (at least according to my very foggy crystal ball) is which direction things go when the crisis ends.
But what is known is that we’re in for a ride.
I agree with whomever here said the the big ticket items will deflate, and the things we consume will inflate as the supply chain deals with inefficiencies due to closings and bankruptcies.
I am still in camp cash, but I am sweatin’ a lot these days.
I am still in camp cash, but I am sweatin’ a lot these days.
I hear you. When did “doing the right thing” (living within your means, saving money, not participating in the bubble etc) become “putting your entire financial future in jeopardy.”
It’s like a crapshoot. I know someone who bought a house at the peak of the bubble. I used to think they were idiots. But if we get massive inflation, they’ll be looking pretty smart sitting in their increasingly affordable house while I sit on a stack of useless greenbacks with a dunce cap on.
Paging FPSS, paging FPSS, where are you? I’ve come back from across the pond.
i don’t think ole mathew knows what he’s talking about. consider..
“First, declining demand drive prices down. That impacts profits and leads to layoffs. Then unemployment further saps demand.”
first, deflation doesn’t mean declining demand. that happens with recession or depression.
second, declining prices don’t necessarily lead to layoffs. declining demand does lead to layoffs. declining prices are often a sign of efficiency of production. increased efficiency leads to increased profits even at reduced product prices.
the real boogey man here is inflation. inflation is bad for spenders (prices increase) and for savers (dollar value decreases).
and thanks to our screwed up politicians we are looking at what is the worst of both worlds, an inflationary depression. if we continue down this road, what we have in store will make the great depression seem like a walk in the park.
There is nothing the FED can do to stop the collapse of the greatest expansion of credit in history.
Slow it, sure. Get consumers back on the debt slavery wagon, no. “Force banks to lend”, OK, to whom? This generation is done with the borrow to spend treadmill. The more they tax us, the less we will spend, and the angrier we will get.
As the eloquent former Statesman said: “This sucker’s goin down.”
“There is nothing the FED can do to stop the collapse of the greatest expansion of credit in history.”
I agree, but here I still am at the car repair joint, out about $400. We’re fast approaching that bizarre twilight zone area where it might actually be cheaper to buy a piece of junk every time you have a problem. I don’t know if that’s disinstagmadeflationary pressure or what — either way, it’s a reduction in the stnadrad of living.
‘“Force banks to lend”, OK, to whom? This generation is done with the borrow to spend treadmill.’
Word seems to be getting around about how badly burned one can get by relying on massive leverage on household balance sheets. Borrowing more than one’s income and spending it is in danger of losing its cherished position in the minds of many as ‘The American Way.’ What will Megabank, Inc do if people start living within their means and stop running up and maintaining super sized revolving credit balances?
What will Mega bank do?
Why, they’ll get laws passed that forced us to borrow! TARP anyone?
It used to be cool to have a “cashflow balance” that was on a razor’s edge. What people failed to realize that running their personal lives like a corporation is run, is that when the corporation goes bankrupt, the officers walk away with a pile of change. When the individual goes bankrupt, he’s still on the hook, and will have to tighten his belt.
” His conclusion…deflation doesn’t have a chance. ”
good then I’m going to get a raise in pay along with everyone else
so I can spend more………. no ?
Then stagflation as Goldman Sachs and their breathren move to commodities as a hedge against a falling dollar
The con men who have mistaken the map for the terrain will eventually reap the consequences of real world events.
You ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
the FED will force the banks to lend.
and will they force people to borrow. How many want to leverage up on a home, or a business when the consumer is dead and unemployment is rising.
Inflation will not happen until they start pumping more of those dollars into consumers hands in a way that makes consumers feel optomistic. If they just pump in cash and hand it to gamblers on Wallstreet you’ll see a chaotic game of musical chairs with regard to stocks and commodities as they gamble with each other. Let the price of fuel rocket up along with interest rates that just means my dollars will buy more house.
Hey drop the interest rate on my cc to 1% for the next 5 years and see how much i spend
and will they force people to borrow
Where Da Boyz are. It’s a bit of a longer read, but well worth it for those of us who like to indulge in a bit of schadenfreude. What struck me was the rogue’s gallery of financial fraudsters and jerks like Baron who think they’re above the law and can do whatever they want. When I wuz a pup, I spent some time in East Hampton, which used to be a delight until it was destroyed by people making up for lack of genital size with fraud and faux castles.
http://www.vanityfair.com/style/features/2009/07/hamptons200907
“people making up for lack of genital size with fraud and faux castles”
And you have verified that direct relationship yourself personally?
I suspect that’s the case but can’t prove it. Kinda like I suspect the volume level coming from boom box cars is inversely proportional to the driver’s “endowment.”
oops, it’s an inverse relationship.
I do know that the volume of one’s stereo is inversely proportional to one’s taste in music.
the inverse relationship with belt buckle size is well documented, isn’t it?
Now I feel much better about my lack of desire to own a McMansion
Good morning,
Any thoughts on the safety/danger of parking cash at ALLY Bank (the old GMAC Bank)?
They are offering double (whopping 2%) what I can find elsewhere with the FDIC guarantee.
Thanks.
Pen
I have no idea but I would not give anyone my money for a 2% return.I would rather keep it under the mattress.
I wouldnt either…
I’m just buying gold and platinum…..:)
Either your mattress is full or you have no money.
Have a friend who works for a major bank..she says anytime you have a bank, especially a smaller community based bank offering a HIGH!(LoL) interest on CD don’t put more in there than what is covered by the FDIC..it ususally means the bank is in trouble and needs to raise deposits IMMEDIATELY!
Another friend works with the FDIC and says they are ramping up for closing up banks..they just put a office in Jacksonville, FL and are hiring like crazy…many of the banks they are going to close shortly should have been axed a long time ago…but haven’t due to the lack of manpower…
Shock and awe in Orlando. Check out this link to an Orlando Sentinal news story about abandoned homes being stripped, vandalized and rotting in the Florida sun. The bigger deal here is that it starts off with a home in Windermere, here on the West side of Orlando. Tiger Woods lives here, along with about 30 other pro golfers. ‘How could such a thing happen in Windermere??’ Reality just might be setting in.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-foreclosure-homes-damage-062009,0,3582817.story
The home is “near” Windermere according to the article, but in a “guarded, gated” community nonetheless.
Yes, I know. I live in Windermere. There are many guarded, gated subs in Windermere. This one is just West of Lake Butler.
GOOOOOOOOOOD MORRNIIIIIING everyone!!!!
Hey, guys. Knee surgery is over. Process was not as easy as some people tried to make me believe, but it was not as bad as a few of my nightmares from last week. Reasonable compromise.
Got to the hospital at 8:00 AM. Wrote name on a list. Waited. Got call to talk to the intake person, hand over insurance card and id to get scanned, sign away all my rights, acknowledge that I had understood pages of information that had only been handed to me 30 seconds earlier, declined to give DNR instructions, etc. Despite having been told to bring a credit card with me, they didn’t ask to see it. Perhaps they would have if my insurance card had turned out to be invalid? Then I waited. And waited. And waited.
By the way, the surgical area of the hospital was crawling with secret service guys with little curly wires sticking out their ears. A woman waiting for her husband said that it was for Hillary Clinton who had an injury. I have no idea, but someone important was there. Most of the other patients seem to have been there for colonoscopies.
2 and a 1/2 hours later, I got called back to the pre-op area. Long story short, I picked regular general anesthsia over a spinal block. The doc put what he called the “fun stuff” into my IV as we headed to the OR. I don’t see what was so fun about it, since I must have been completely out a few seconds later. I don’t even remember going through the next set of fire doors.
As promised by many, I was able to stand and walk around right after I woke up. Got myself dressed including slipping shoes on and putting on my pants. Walked to the bathroom. Got up into my friend’s car with little help. All this *before* the pain medication I got through the IV wore off. By the time my friend got me nearly home and we stopped off at the pharmacy to pick my prescription, I was in a lot more pain and walking was getting hard. A few hours later, switching from clothes to PJ’s was a lot harder than getting dressed at the hospital.
Well, that is about it. I had one nasty wave of nausea, but it passed without any external evidence. I had hoped to be able to do things around the apartment during recovery, but as this post has taken nearly an hour,so I think I am going to become one with the sofa for now. Not allowed to shower or drive until Monday, so not much chance for travel. Plus, and here is the kicker, it seems I don’t get high from oxycodone (generic percoset). Not even a little bit. My dad said he didn’t get high off the percoset he had after his back surgery, so maybe it is genetic. It works on the pain and very well, but no extra benefits. Too bad. I have an old tape of Fantasia. I bet that would be fun if you were high. Oh, and one more insurance thing - 40 pills of the oxycodone (5 day supply, no refills) cost $2.15. Barely over a nickel a pill. And I can’t see any indication on the print out from the pharmacy that this it the co-pay. Is it possible that this is the generic cost? I find that hard to believe, but I guess it is possible.
Good luck, Polly. I am about to stave off memories of my Achilles’s heel surgery with a trip to the racquetball court, but the memory still lingers painfull.
Polly,
H E A L Q U I C K L Y. Glad to hear you came through the surgery ok, and you’re on the mend. Don’t overdue it. Listen to your body.
I like percoset. Vicadin doesn’t work well on me and it gives me nausea. I guess peroset is for us type A personalities.
Ice is your friend. Lots of ice. Just make sure you keep the sutures dry.
I’ve been trying ice. The compression bandage is so thick, the cold doesn’t get through to my leg. Wish it did help.
The compression bandage is so thick, the cold doesn’t get through to my leg. The cold will get through if you apply enough ice for a long enough time. Put a 7lb bag of ice cubes under the knee (moosh down the cubes & adjust them like the padding in a bean bag) and a 7 lb bag over the knee. It may take more than an hour to cool everything off. Use a lot of towels in the vicinity to soak up the condensation and leakage.
After my sister’s knee replacement she was told to use bags of loose frozen peas for cold compress. They mold to the shape of your leg/knee better.
Oh, yeah, I heard that too! Plus you can eat them if you get hungry and can’t reach the fridge.
Polly, look on the bright side. Now you can spend endless hours in front of your computer screen, waxing eloquent on the HBB!
We’ve used frozen spinach in a similar arrangement, suggested by the doctor that lives in the house. Worked great.
Tresho’s idea of some poundage sounded better for well-wrapped wounds.
That could have been the generic price. I was only prescribed Tylenol with codeine after my surgery but never took it. I took naproxyn 250 4 times a day, which I had been taking before the surgery. Worked very well and no nausea. The worst pain for me started in physical therapy 3 days later when my knee bent for the first time post-op. The muscles moving the knee really didn’t like being moved, and after an hour or so, became extremely stiff and painful. (whether or not I tried to move them). The knee itself did not hurt at all, and since surgery has rarely twinged me. The muscles recovered after 4 days of gentle stretching & stiff doses of Vit. B. I then began the serious P.T. It’s been 16 years & I am still doing my physical therapy exercises at the local weight facility. As always, YMMV.
The one time I had Tylenol with codine I did get rather…disconnected from reality. Funny thing is that it didn’t actually stop the pain. If I recall correctly, my comment was something like this:
Wow. Somebody’s wrist hurts. I wonder whose it is?
I did not drive myself home that evening.
This is nothing like that.
Polly, so glad it’s over and done with. Hope your recovery is unremarkable!
FYI:
Women metabolize oxycodone differently than men (who tend to get better relief from moderate-to-severe pain with hydrocodone.) For many years the drug, though hugely effective in women, was demonized as “addictive” and “having a high potential for abuse.” So the much more expensive hydrocodone, (Vicodin,) was prescribed instead. For many, it didn’t work. Then about ten years ago the CDC finally did some double blind studies with the two, and decided that it might be okay to start prescribing plain old nickel-a-tablet oxycodone again.
But good luck trying to find it. Two of the three licensed manufacturers went out of business this year, and it is not being shipped to wholesalers with any regularity. Three months ago I tried to fill a prescription for oxycodone and another for Relenza–the only anti-viral that works against H1N1. Neither was “available.” Anywhere in California. As a hoot, I tried to track some down. A few pharmacies in South Cal had odd lots of the oxy, but no one (including UCLA Medical Center and USC/Harbor,) had Relenza in their formulary (and this was before swine flu was mentioned in the media.) Stockpiled and restricted. Both of them. (Read: safe, effective, cheap, and not for us commoners.)
There are the results of double-blind studies, and then there are the things that work for you individually. Sometimes they are not the same.
That was my point. Most women I’ve discussed this with feel they get better pain relief (with fewer side-effects,) using oxy, rather than hydro codone. YMMV.
It was that hard to find it? Really? The medium sized CVS less than 2 blocks from my apartment had it in stock. The hospital said that they couldn’t call in the prescription because of the type of medication, but all I had to do was bring it in by hand and show ID. And I had been so proud for remembering to print out the info on the closest pharmacy just so the hospital could call it in. Guess it is a good thing I didn’t try to get it at the supermarket. If that CVS hadn’t had it in stock my only back up was the even bigger CVS up the street. That one is huge and has one of their walk in clinics. I don’t think it even occured to me that I wouldn’t be able to find it at all. It does work.
They originally said it was going to take half an hour to fill it, but an employee probably noticed my hospital bracelets because she went back and lit a fire under the pharmacist’s butt. All done about 3 minutes later and she didn’t even make me get up to pay.
Polly, have you trying crushing your codone, mixing it with crushed smarties, and snorting it?
Let us know how that works for you
It was out-of-stock for a few months at the beginning of the year. I believe wholesalers are again able to get rationed amounts. There is not a huge call for the drug in its uncompounded form as many physicians are intimidated by the DEA if they prescribe it too frequently.
Well, polly does live in DC and I’m sure things are pretty well stocked there.
Interesting. Sad, but interesting. Very glad my doc was not intimidated - I suppose that surgeons are expected to give out plenty of short term presciptions. The stuff works. I have a generous 5 day supply. The really funny thing is going to be if I end up going to jury duty on Tuesday and have to tell anyone what I am taking.
While taking pain pills, take stool softener and drink lots of water. Pain meds and inactivity cause digestive tract peristalsis to slow down or cease completely.
IMHO it would be worth having a neighbor or friend go out and get some for you.
I hope I don’t seem un-hip now.
Take it easy and all the best, Polly.
Thanks for the warning, Zilker. They warned me at the hospital and I got some while I picked up the prescription.
I can’t do a lot of walking, but I have been pushing water - which leads to walking…to the bathroom.
Heal well, Polly! I’m glad it all went well.
Anyway, I’m gonna pray to Baby Jeebus to fix you up real fast, and while He’s at it, to make your knee bionic. Then you can punt jerks over tall buildings in a couple weeks. Fun!
Zilky, I’ve thought about it, and in my opinion you’ve built up substantial cool cred and may therefore be forgiven for uttering the incredibly uncool words of ’sto0l-softener’ and even worse, ‘peristalsis’.
But don’t let it happen again.
Polly, I just had a good idea, you should get online and learn how to make a home-made catheter! I betcha there’s instructions somewhere.
…you should get online and learn how to make a home-made catheter! I betcha there’s instructions somewhere.
And if there are, I betcha the instructions were authored by someone named ‘Big Al’. (My brother. He’s kind of a unique and inventive fellow. Quite scarred up, though.
)
Thanks for the affirmation Oly.
Oatmeal with raisins and honey for lunch, anyone?
A home-made cathether? Oh no. Very nasty. Very, very nasty.
I think I am going to go digging through my jewelry box and find my tiara instead. If I have to have nasty oily hair (shower if forbidden until Monday), I am going to decorate it and hum loudly while ignoring all instructions about alternate peeing methods.
Now where are those Neil DeGrasse Tyson DVD’s I borrowed from the library?
Polly, all the best. Hope you’re up in fighting form real soon.
BanteringBear serves you virtual homemade chicken soup with crusty sourdough and a dessert of sherbet, accompanied by a nice flower arrangement, an assortment of DVD’s, and and a huge box of chocolates. Get well soon!
Yum.
Glad you made it through ok Polly
get well soon Polly.
i had knee surgery years ago. hurts like heck for a few days and then a speedy recovery.
i know you’ll be fine.
“Matt Geiger’s 26,000-square-foot, six-bedroom mansion in East Lake, at left, has a stocked lake and sits on 40 acres next to Crescent Oaks Country Club. Geiger also owns 60 acres of adjacent land. The house is now listed at $12.5 million. It had been for sale for more than $20 million.”
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/article1011570.ece
Sooper Manshuns are dumb!
26,000 sq feet and only 6 bedrooms?!?
Your average 1980’s 4/2.5 center hall colonial house is ~2200 sq ft.
I have a floor plan in my files that has a huge master bedroom suite, 4 other bedroom suites, plus a loft, dining room, morning room, grand room, gathering room, game room, and a home theatre. And it’s only 7000 sq ft.
WHAT are they filling those other 19,000 square feet with? Ballroom? Wine cellar? Theatre big enough to host the Oscars?
Maybe they want to keep their polo ponies inside.
Opportunity (?) to talk back to the Federal Reserve: June 19 (Bloomberg) — The Federal Reserve is seeking public feedback on its unprecedented efforts to end the worst economic crisis in decades, dispatching officials to forums where they are hearing personal tales of financial destruction. The next hearings will be held during July and August in Buffalo, New York; Cincinnati; Decatur, Illinois; and Des Moines, Iowa, Frye said. Forums are also planned for Kansas City, New York, Chicago and Boston. A 10th city hasn’t been selected yet
Apparently the meetings aren’t as public as this blurb suggests. The first one was held 11 June & got no publicity. Gatekeepers may keep out everyone but the FB’s and REIC people.
No meeting for San Diego, ground zero for the housing bubble and subsequent bust? Perhaps someone could organize a Southern California vacant homes neighborhood tour for Fed representatives.
Maybe the HBB could plant one of its articulate members in a future Fed-FB meeting.
FPSS or NYCboy?
Have ‘em both! They’d set the FED straight!
*wild cackles of merriment at the very thought *
And the best thing is, I bet the FED wouldn’t survive it. We’d win either way.
Nothing farther west than Kansas City. I guess western states like California, Nevada, and Arizona missed the housing/credit bubble.
Also nothing farther south than Kansas City. I guess Florida also missed the housing/credit bubble.
Why Des Moines? Is the government looking ahead to the 2012 caucuses already?
Just wanted to add a little word of caution here. From time to time I’ve seen posts that opine that “we” deserve what is happening, or “we’re” this or that group of ugly, selfish, fat, greedy, slovenly, lazy, entitled, etc., ect. people. Speak for yourself.
Be aware that you will probably be hearing this sort of thing, perhaps put more delicately (but no less insulting), in the media and by gov’t spokespeople in the weeks to come. It’s already started, with Hillary and her cockamamie statements about how “we” are to blame for the weapons going into Mexico and assorted other vomit spewing from NBC. Some of this will be subtle, some will be in your face. Please understand that this is nothing more than propaganda designed to degrade the American population. If you can convince somebody that they’re bad, worthless or whatever, you can get them to accept the most atrocious assaults on their lives and those of their families. This sort of thing is not new. The Soviets had it down to a science. Not to mention Merrie Olde England. No doubt, many Americans are sort of oblivious and have become a bit soft and have been dumbed down by a really bad educational system. But most are good people who work hard and have supported a system that has enabled the so-called “Titans of Industry” to outsource and “go global”. Even Bill Gates, as he outsources employment elsewhere, admits that were it not for the taxpayer supported legal and business infrastructure of the US, Microsoft wouldn’t exist. And yet he sees nothing wrong with spitting right in the faces of the people who have enabled his success and looked up to him.
Oh, and North Korea? Nothing more than China’s proxy. China wants to ensure their dough is safe. Eff every single “corporate titan”, bankster and politician who decided it was a good thing to enable and trade with China.
“Some of this will be subtle, some will be in your face.”
I cannot think of a single media utterance from Hitlary which was not ‘in my face.’
Another home run, Palmy. I would only add that I’m not against trading w/China or anyone else, but we need a policy that favors freedom and the interests of the people over there, not those of some ruling clique. We should have supported the protesters at Tiananmen Square.
we need a policy that favors freedom and the interests of the people over there, not those of some ruling clique We need a policy that favors our own freedoms and the interests of people over here, not those of our ruling clique. When we get our own house(s) in order, maybe we can give some attention to the price of tea in China. Woodrow Wilson was out to lunch.
tresho,
Agree totally, except for the implication that we have to solve one problem before we can address another. I don’t see why we can’t attack them both simultaneously.
Please don’t mistake diplomacy speak for words that can or should be interpreted using any rules of natural language. International relations just doesn’t work that way.
Sigh… polly, you’re such a DC’ite (is that a word?)
So, words don’t mean what they say they mean…
But I wish you a speedy recovery anyway.
LehighValleyGuy;
could you open a Facebook account and name it something clever? thanks in advance.
Sweeping Changes,
Sorry, I’m missing your drift. Another hint or two might help.
i like facebook ’cause you can remove stuff you write.
DC’ite? That has nothing to do with it. Diplomacy and international relations make people stupid. As been since the times of the Medes and Persians and way before that, I expect. Is this title the equivalent to this title or is sending that person to the meeting an insult? Genocide can be described as an unfortunate incident or a small tribal skirmish can be described as genocide. Nothing that comes out of the state department is meant to “degrade” the American people because it isn’t aimed at the American people. Most of them will never hear it and that is OK because it is probably meant to try to give an official in another country cover to be able to do something that is beneficial to both them and the US but unpopular with some vocal subgroup in the other country. Might be unpopular here too, but I think it happens much more the other way because, as citizens of superpower, the people of the US don’t get all excited about getting appologies from other places.
Actions are what count in international relations and the words that surround them are often very stupid.
I am grateful to Mr Chamberlain for all his efforts. I have assured him that the German People desire nothing but peace. However, I have also told him that I cannot retreat once the limit of our patience has been reached. I have also assured him, and I repeat this assurance here, that, once this problem is solved, there exist no further territorial problems for Germany in Europe! And I have further assured him that as soon as the Czechoslovakian problem is solved, that is to say when the Czechs have dealt with their other minorities, and I mean by peaceful methods not suppression, I shall have no further interest in the Czech state. And he has my guarantee of that! We do not want any Czechs.
Eddie Murphy had “relations.”
We have an air force.
Glad you are back home and will hobble not so much.
China has it all backwards. By supporting NK they give the US few options other than preserving a massive military presence in the area.
If the Chinese military rolled over NK - which would take a day or so depending upon the weather and if they stopped for lunch - the US could save all that money they are spending on troops there. This would strengthen the US bonds that the Chinese hold so many of.
Please understand that this is nothing more than propaganda designed to degrade the American population. If you can convince somebody that they’re bad, worthless or whatever, you can get them to accept the most atrocious assaults on their lives and those of their families.
If you really believe this, I feel badly for you. Sec. Clinton is just speaking in the language of international diplomacy. The Mexican side has long admitted that they (”the Mexicans”) have a problem with drug trafficking. And I’m sure you do not get hot and bothered when someone says that either. However what has been missing, and what is bothering Mexico at the official level, is the complete unwillingness of the U.S. to acknowledge its contribution to the problem — we supply the guns, and the drug users, and probably also the banks.Everyone knows that not every Mexican is a drug trafficker, nor every american a drug-running, coke-snorting money launderer. All Sec. Clinton was doing was publicly acknowledging that we have an important role in the problem as a way to move forward diplomatically with the Mexicans.
It’s not some big conspiracy to demoralize the populace. In fact, I feel the opposite. I feel for the first time in a while I hear people in power actually saying (maybe not all the time, but most times) what is actually happening, not some fantasy version of reality. The prescriptions you get from them might not be what you or I want, but I defy you to tell me that they are at least speaking more truthfully and openly about the problems:
I think all of us here today would acknowledge that we’ve lost that sense of shared prosperity.
This loss has not happened by accident. It’s because of decisions made in boardrooms, on trading floors and in Washington. Under Republican and Democratic administrations, we failed to guard against practices that all too often rewarded financial manipulation instead of productivity and sound business practices. We let the special interests put their thumbs on the economic scales. The result has been a distorted market that creates bubbles instead of steady, sustainable growth; a market that favors Wall Street over Main Street, but ends up hurting both.
Nor is this trend new. The concentrations of economic power –- and the failures of our political system to protect the American economy from its worst excesses –- have been a staple of our past, most famously in the 1920s, when with success we ended up plunging the country into the Great Depression. That is when government stepped in to create a series of regulatory structures -– from the FDIC to the Glass-Steagall Act –- to serve as a corrective to protect the American people and American business.
Ironically, it was in reaction to the high taxes and some of the outmoded structures of the New Deal that both individuals and institutions began pushing for changes to this regulatory structure. But instead of sensible reform that rewarded success and freed the creative forces of the market, too often we’ve excused and even embraced an ethic of greed, corner cutting and inside dealing that has always threatened the long-term stability of our economic system. Too often, we’ve lost that common stake in each other’s prosperity.
“we supply the guns, and the drug users, and probably also the banks.”
As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger, “What you mean “we”, white man?”
I am not part of the “we” of which you speak. Nor was I around during slavery and therefore feel no need to apologize for something I didn’t do. I’m not demanding reparations from the English for what they did to my great-grandparents. Or from the Scandinavians, for that matter, for ravaging my ancestral home. I also don’t feel I have to bend over for immigrants, legal and illegal, because of some slight, real or imagined, that said immigrants may perceive. I don’t feel like I owe any money to China because I was part of some “we” hyper-consumerist group. I try to avoid Chinese products when I can, even used ones. I’m not running drugs, guns or human beings. I don’t cheat my fellow man and I try, but may not alway succeed, to do right by my neighbors. But that doesn’t entitle my neighbors to walk all over me and trample on my rights as a human being. I believe in human rights, but also human responsibility.
YOU may be part of the “we” that supplied arms and other stuff. I am not.
“It’s not some big conspiracy to demoralize the populace. In fact, I feel the opposite. I feel for the first time in a while I hear people in power actually saying (maybe not all the time, but most times) what is actually happening, not some fantasy version of reality. The prescriptions you get from them might not be what you or I want, but I defy you to tell me that they are at least speaking more truthfully and openly about the problems”
No, they’re not saying what’s happening; they’re saying what YOU want and other True Believers want to hear and that will keep contributions rolling in. Obama (or rather his speechwriter) falsifies every statistic out of his mouth, and revises history without batting an eye. And Clinton’s comment about American guns in Mexico has been thoroughly discredited (her numbers were magnified by a factor of eight).
It’s interesting that this administration routinely trashes this country in favor of its enemies, and exalts its enemies over its allies. This may look good to those Americans who hate America and blame the productive for their own misery, but at some point the productive are going to cut them off. Then what?
Bowing to the Saudies, apologizing for saving the world in WWII, comparing women’s rights issues in the Middle East (where there are virtually no women’s rights) to women’s rights issues in America (the birthplace of modern women’s rights), and dumping on Israel isn’t speaking truth. Obama’s fake autobiographies are riddled with fictional personal stories and events; every speech he delivers includes some such fantasy anecdote, usually at the beginning. He is a much bigger and better liar than P.T. Barnum, but not nearly as witty, despite the scripted jokes. At some point, the public is going to say enough is enough, and send him and his Chicago buddies and Wall Street cronies back to Never Never Land.
Wow. Just wow.
I wish you’d post more often, Incredulous.
Obama is our very own Little Lord Flaunteroy. (I realize the spelling is not correct).
Obama is an @ss. And a smug one at that.
Nothing raises my blood pressure to 180/140 quicker than a politician laying the burden of this entire crisis on the backs of the American people. The politicians need only look in the mirror when looking to assign blame. A lot of these people should be in prison. Our country is truly out of control right now, thanks to them.
Senator Ensign of Nevada just came clean about an extra marital affair with a married woman from his campaign, also a friend of the family. I don’t care about the affair, though it underscores his scummy nature, but I do care about the fact that he was throwing huge amounts of taxpayer money at this woman and her husband. This guy should be fired, but these people are above reproach, and accountability.
California budget crisis, meet California unemployment crisis.
California unemployment crisis, meet California foreclosure crisis.
Either bail out California or reap the Lehmanesque ripple effects — what’ll it be?
washingtonpost dot com > Live Q&As
Analysis: California Budget Crisis
University of Maryland
Assistant Professor Tracy Gordon
Friday, June 19, 2009; 12:00 PM
Top state officials have gone hat in hand to the administration, armed with dire warnings of a fast-approaching “fiscal meltdown” caused by a budget shortfall. Concern has grown inside the White House in recent weeks as California’s fiscal condition has worsened, leading to high-level administration meetings.
——————————————————————————-
California jobless rate hits 11.5%
Layoffs predicted to continue rising probably into 2010
In The Union-Tribune on Page A1
By Dean Calbreath
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
California’s unemployment rate surged to 11.5 percent last month — its highest point since World War II — as the state lost 68,900 jobs, according to data released yesterday by the state Employment Development Department.
——————————————————————————-
Pricey neighborhoods seeing more defaults
In The Union-Tribune on Page A1
By Roger Showley
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
For months, San Diego County’s housing market has been ravaged by thousands of foreclosures in low-priced neighborhoods, where families saw their American dreams vanish as their subprime loans went bad. Now, according to figures released yesterday, the pain is lessening in those areas while becoming more acute in high-priced neighborhoods.
Professor:
I am getting sick and tired of the dire warnings of a meltdown
In reality all that will happen is state workers retirees etc, will get 90% of their checks and an IOU for the rest….
Not a pleasant though but it would be worse then a 8.0 earthquake if they stopped all the checks because they had to pay 100% or Nothing!
I am beginning to wonder if California would not be better off just starting its own currency, rather than waiting around for the Fed/Treasury to share the wealth out here. There seems to have been just enough freshly-printed money to take care of bailing out NYC and Detroit, but not quite enough to share with the largest state by geography, population and economic output. This seems just a tad unfair, no?
I don’t see what you are getting at with the “unfair”. Nationalizing a company in an effort to keep the national economy moving is not the same as bailing out a state government. The Feds did not bail out Detroit
Subsidizing a state government in an effort to keep the national economy moving might be preferable to letting the demise of a state government drag down the national economy, provided the government in question is “too-big-to-fail.” The doctrine of “too-big-to-fail” is about collective economic survival, not fairness or morality.
And if the Fed did not bail out Detroit, then why, by virtue of being an American tax payer, am I part owner of GM?
I guess technically it was the Treasury that bailed out GM? I can’t keep the Treasury and the Fed separate in my mind any longer, as both are headed by central banking club members.
In short, California is different. In some ways, it chooses to be different and in some ways it has to be. In the “has to be” category you have — as you suggest — a large, young population that may rely on government services like schools or Medicaid. You also have high labor costs compared to the rest of the country.
The state also pays higher average compensation for its employees — in some areas of spending this is true even after accounting for the higher costs of living in the state. It’s all about tradeoffs.
“And in one key indicator of competitiveness for the future California remains a standout — the state’s share of U.S. venture capital funding.”
Didn’t I read somwhere that VC investing was expected to fall ?
my last VC company I worked for is still trying to make it. Started in 2001. I left in 2006 to uh time the housing market and boy didn’t that confuse the VC eggheads I toiled for, they didn’t beleive it, IQ’s all above 130 and can’t see the bubble or didn’t care most had plenty of money and made generous salaries.
I guess Its all about prespective ?
Bill to California: Drop Dead.
California to Carolina: Drop Dead
LOL. Thanks for responding in the sense that Bill in Carolina was implicitly saying ALL Californians are to blame for California’s problems. He’s wrong.
From the WaPo Q&A:
Tucson, Ariz.: They need to deal with their pension system. Why should the rest of the country be asked to support their extremely generous pension system? At least on California city filed bankruptcy because of their inability to support the payments to their program.
Tracy Gordon: This question brings up the issue of why the federal government should come to California’s rescue. I think it’s a fair question. Why should an out of work auto worker in Michigan be asked to kick in money for a guy in Orange County who doesn’t want to pay higher taxes? (Of course Michigan is asking for help too, but let’s put that aside.)
One argument is that California is “too big to fail.” I actually addressed this in a blog at the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center a few days ago. From a financial markets perspective, it’s hard to imagine California causing big ripple effects. The state will have to pay a risk premium if it borrows to close the current budget gap, but that premium will be based on its own history.
If policymakers agree with this hypothesis that California will not cause big ripple effects, then perhaps the state should have to bear its own recessionary cross. Part of me wishes for this, as I would love to see mass mortgage defaults deeply gouge members of Megabank, Inc whose securitization scam facilitated crazy $700,000 loans to help Central Valley agricultural workers buy homes just a wee bit out of their price range. Of course, if Megabank, Inc gets into trouble with California defaults, I see no reason the Fed could not work out more zero interest loans in perpetuity to help prop them up. Unlike California, Wall Street always automatically qualifies for bailouts.
I really can’t fathom Professor Gordon’s remark about California’s economic demise not causing financial market ripple effects. Perhaps she does not apprehend the connection between California mortgage loans and all of those collapsed mortgage backed securities which Megabank, Inc issued on said mortgages?
The states are equal and SEPARATE. But then again, we have been redefined as a democracy, that is why you have the idiocy of “everyone helping everyone”. Once people learn history and learn what this country was intended to be, we might be in better shape.
Will the newfangled consumer watch dog agency be able to assist Main Street folk get back their 401(k) pension monies which Wall Street successfully stole out from under them over the course of the past decade?
Wall Street Journal
* JUNE 20, 2009
Wall Street Critic Inspired New Consumer-Protection Agency
By MELANIE TROTTMAN
WASHINGTON — Harvard University law professor Elizabeth Warren dined for three hours with White House economic adviser Lawrence Summers two months ago, and discussed over curry her idea for an agency to protect consumers from bad financial products.
This past week, President Barack Obama announced his plan to create a Consumer Financial Protection Agency, endorsing Ms. Warren’s idea and causing an uproar in the financial-services industry.
Ms. Warren, for years a scourge of Wall Street, has emerged as an influential force in the administration’s overhaul of financial regulations. The White House said the agency she helped inspire would strengthen consumer protection in areas including credit cards, mortgages and other financial products. If approved by Congress, it would be able to write new rules governing how products can be sold.
401Ks are gambles, not pensions.
As I vaguely recall, they were heavily marketed as the surefire path to retirement wealth right up until the tech stock bust…
right up until the tech stock bust… and far beyond that bust, to the current one!
Yes, as I recall, the path to retirement riches was still paved with 401K gold, we were just told to recalibrate a little …
401ks are meant to make people who get most of their wealth through wages think like people who get most of their wealth through capital gains.
401Ks are meant to provide a steady stream of management fees to Wall Street. It has nothing to do with making “people think”.
Let’s see: Vanguard 500 index fund…0.18% expense ratio unless you are in the Admiral version, which has the 0.09% expense ratio.
So you’d rather us all buy 0% expense ratio Treasuries, which historically don’t gain as much as the broad stock indices?
VIIIX has an expense ratio of 0.02%. It’s in the list of funds for the Intel Corp. 401(k) plan.
That one is a great fund and you can only buy it in a 401k since it is marketed as an insstitutional fund. Besides the minimum purchase is $200,000,000 (no typo).
My former employer’s 401k has Vanguard PRIMECAP Admiral Fund, VPMAX, which has a 0.38 expense ratio but is closed to new investors. This one fund is the only reason I did not roll over the 401k to an IRA. Ordinarily, Admiral funds require a minimum $100,000 purchase.
As for this thread, let’s continue to think we are all experts and deride 401ks as a savings vehicle. After all, we know better than John Bogle, don’t we?
I was real proud of myself a few years back rolling my other 401(k) plans over to the Intel one and putting most of the funds into VIIIX. Now I feel stupid since I didn’t pull it all out back in the spring of 2008.
I’ll trade you my 401k if I could. You have a great situation if you wait. I’m 50 years old and 100% of my 401ks and IRAS are in stock mutual funds, but none with such a low expense ratio.
The Vanguard profile of VIIIX shows it to be of large blend companies. I think it’s a good area to be in when we get out of this cycle. But that could take ten to twenty years before you see annual gains back to 9%.
401ks are meant to make people who get most of their wealth… Are you implying they actually function to get people to part with their wealth?
Come on, guys. It was a very simple statement. Very wealthy people are concerned about the value of their assets, like stocks. When “little guys” got their retirement income from defined benefit pensions and social security, many of them had no interest in the stock market since they didn’t own any shares. They had more pecuniary interest than they knew since their defined benefit pension plans invested in shares, but that was not visible to them.
Now that people mostly have defined asset programs, if anything, they get statements that go up and down with the stock market. And, fools that they are, they see the retirement savings as a source of money for house downpayments and savings for various times of hardship. They see their own well-being as being tied to the stock market. They are thinking a little more like the people who make their money off stocks and other assets, not regular wages.
Oh, and the wall street crowd get fees, but they were and are getting fees from pension plans. I’m sure they get more this way, but it is not as if they were getting nothing before.
Excellent! That just opened my eyes, thanks for sure.
Eh, yer a good gal, polly, much as I rip on DC, I’m sure glad there are at least a few folks like yourself there.
And I second that opinion of Polly, Palmy. Hip Hip Horray.
“401ks are meant to make people who get most of their wealth through wages think like people who get most of their wealth through capital gains.”
yea maybe did it work ?
“401ks are meant to make people who get most of their wealth through wages think like people who get most of their wealth through capital gains.”
Polly, you’re absolutely right, and your comment is well worth pondering. Basically, there are two ways of making money: there’s day-to-day earned income, and then there’s “passive income”– cap gains, interest/dividends, absentee landlord rentals, etc. The problem is that “passive income” is to a large extent morally illegitimate (see Michael Hudson’s essay for much more on this).
So my way of paraphrasing your comment is to say that America is torn between wanting to shoot the b@st@rds, and wanting to BECOME one of the b@st@rds. This, of course, is the way the PTB want things.
What is the difference between someone who owns a small business with several employees and one who is part owner of that small business with several employees? Both situations involve profiting from the labor and capital into the business(es).
Immoral? Not from a capitalistic point of view. Immoral if you are a North Korean though.
Millions of professionals such as software engineers, nurses, computer engineers, and biochemists are too blazing busy to be full time day traders and they understand that their best route to become wealthy is to have a 401k and a matching 401k and regularly invest in stock funds over the long haul. Most large companies have a wide variety of stock mutual funds to choose from in their 401ks from top fund families with 3, 4, and 5 star (Morningstar) funds.
I suppose you are “too smart” to accept a matching 401k contribution, right? (snicker).
I think I see where you are coming from. You are one of those who think there should be limits on how much wealth a person can make. I say there should be no limits.
The problem is that “passive income” is to a large extent morally illegitimate
Then how do you expect people to retire?
The American way is to work hard, save money, and retire when you can live off your passive income.
and retire when you can live off your passive income.
Well, one could argue the point is to live off your savings rather than the passive income earned on such.
Bill, I assure you I am not a North Korean agent, nor do I favor legal limits on compensation. Nor– to answer your first question– do I claim that there is always a black-and-white distinction between earned and passive income. But I do tend to agree with the saying that behind every great fortune there is a crime, and I think that most of the truly wealthy in this country have “earned” their fortunes by means other than simply talent and hard work– i.e. by breaking rules at key points, being clever/lucky enough not to get caught, and by (gov’t assisted) political maneuvering.
Now to return to the original remark by polly, I understand that some of you think that 401(k)’s are as American as apple pie, and that you have a constitutional right to have your retirement funded this way. But it wasn’t that long ago that everyone thought real estate only went up. What is your fallback if we get a Japan-style extended slump in the stock market?
and I think that most of the truly wealthy in this country have “earned” their fortunes by means other than simply talent and hard work– i.e. by breaking rules at key points, being clever/lucky enough not to get caught, and by (gov’t assisted) political maneuvering.
Thinking like this will ensure the demise of our nation into a socialist black hole..
Lehigh Guy, I still say that you cannot say “every” extremely wealthy individual got there unscrupulously. You would have to prove every case.
And regarding 401ks, you think we are better off not taking matching contributions? You havent addressed the matching contributions point I made.
You are making a Robert Kiyosaki stsyle attack on 401ks and IRAs. I haven’t heard of anyone in my life saying 401ks and IRAs invested in stocks only go up. Can you honestly say you heard people say stocks only go up?
The reality is that markets are cyclic. How come on this real estate bubble blog the consensus is that real estate is cyclic but we cannot somehow say that about stocks? “This time, it’s different?” That saying is always wrong. That is one thing you can be sure of.
Good morning everyone. A fine day to work in the
garden. First cup of the morning, a fine brew, a distinct aroma wafting from the kitchen, all is well
in our world. Cheers!
This WSJ Op-ed piece brings to mind the kind of real estate investing “luck” that led Randy “Duke” Cunningham from the halls of Congress to jail.
Wall Street Journal
* REVIEW & OUTLOOK
* JUNE 20, 2009
Dodd’s Irish Luck
The Senator Sure Knows How to Pick an Investment.
Irish property prices have plummeted since 2002. But a “cottage” in County Galway owned by Connecticut Senator Chris Dodd has tripled in value during the same period, according to a financial disclosure form filed by the Senator this month.
There are two possible explanations for this remarkable turn of fortune. Maybe Mr. Dodd is luckier than a leprechaun. Or could it be that he paid well below the market price when he bought out a co-owner in 2002 and had undervalued the property accordingly? If it’s the latter, then Mr. Dodd received a “gift,” in IRS parlance, and should have declared it on his financial disclosure form that year. He did not. Oh, and by the way, the seller at that low, low price has been the business partner of a man for whom Mr. Dodd lobbied to receive a Presidential pardon.
…
Here is a link to the Cunningham story:
Cunningham defends deal with defense firm’s owner
By Marcus Stern
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE
June 12, 2005
I am thinking that Cunningham and Dodd are both Irish family names, too: luck of the Irish, indeed!
I am thinking that real estate investment deals are probably a customary way to launder gifts to politicians, as there is no immediate way to “prove” that a real estate gain in the $100,000s range was not a simple matter of savvy investing skill, rather than money laundering. Can anyone offer comment?
Hileary Clinton did pretty good with cattle futures if I remember correctly
Dodd belongs in jail. Are the voters in Connecticut smart enough to replace him come next election?
Pagin Olygal: Leprechaun Alert!
Pagin Olygal: Leprechaun Alert!
Really!? I knew it!
*leaps to feet and peers around alertly *
…oh, you. Tricking me again, palmy, for your own merriment.
Beginner’s luck for Hitlery, too!
I’m in the waiting area of a car service joint. The lady next to me just called her husband and said, “Honey, did you know there was a murder across the street last night?”
Ah, Florida.
Looking at Realtor.com this morning.
718 Bocce Ct. Palm Beach Gardens Fl. 3/2 pool 3315 sq. ft.
asking $359,000
sold in 05 $645,000
sold in 03 new $437,000
only $200,000 to go
But I hear roasted monitor lizard is cheap and tasty.
The lady next to me just called her husband and said, “Honey, did you know there was a murder across the street last night?”
It would have been even better if she’d added…”Now, honey, where were you at 11 p.m., anyway?’
NEW YORK (AP) — Struggling retailer Eddie Bauer Holdings Inc., which began as a Seattle fishing shop, later outfitted the first American to climb Mt. Everest and made thousands of newfangled down jackets and sleeping bags for the military during World War II, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Wednesday.
My mom is going to have a lot of fun at those liquidation sales. I’m sure I’ll receive a 30 year supply of Eddie Bauer pillow covers for my birthday.
Does this mean no more Eddie Bauer-branded Ford Explorers?
Maybe Eddie Bauer can apply its brand to new GM products.
We need to open trade with cuba…11 mill people maybe we can sell them 10 million new cars
Finally a REAL stimulus program….LOL
It means the ones that exist are instant classics.
Guess you’ll have to settle for the LL Bean branded model instead. Oh, the humanity…
But wait, if you own an EB Explorer, it’s now a collectors item!
NOoOoOoOo!
They make the only jeans I’ve ever found that fit.
And seriously, given my fitting problems, this is bad news.
How bad is it? So bad that attorneys are sleeping in their neighbor’s trash cans.
A W E S O M E
Righteous! Nice picture, too.
Haha! I liked the photos, too.
It could have been worse for the neighbors. He could have done a raccoon and banged on the cans and eaten some garbage scraps and then left a big ol’ tarry poo-p00 on the sidewalk.
(I’m not as fond of raccoons as I was before I came to live amongst them.)
Hey, and did you notice that the neighbors trash included some recyclable/compostable items?!
Jerks!
Oh, and one more thing:
Councilman Nathan Samuel lives in Wilder’s neighborhood, Elk Pointe, and had not heard any commotion the night before the incident.
Dam*mit! There’s NO ELK there. At least not anymore! And there’s NO ‘POINTE’, either!
Racoon poop often contains some very nasty parasites called Baylisascaris (Raccoon roundworms).
Racoon poop often contains some very nasty parasites called Baylisascaris (Raccoon roundworms).
I read about those. Which is why I electrified my vegetable garden boxes a couple years ago. There’ve been a few comical mishaps when I forget to turn it off before I go out to fetch a tomato or something, (or even funnier, when I forget to turn it off before sending a dinner guest out to fetch a tomato or something), and boy howdy, my cat’s sure aren’t too keen on thing, but I decided I don’t want ANY raccoon poo near my veggies.
I meant ‘cats’. I’ve been sprinkling around punctuation a bit haphazardly for about two days, I notice. Maybe it’s a syndrome.
…Maybe I’ve got raccoon roundworm!!
Oh NooooOOOOOOOOOooooooOOOO…!!
Quick, quick, ATE, ATE! Talk me down!
Hilarious! I sent the link to my sisters to laugh at. Complete with pictures on a convenient one-click expandable image!
We here in the PNW can ALSO produce news of a comical variety.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/6420ap_wa_nail_spat.html?source=mypi
“Inch-long orange fingernails at issue in nail spat”
MOUNT VERNON, Wash. — A teenage girl who balked at paying for a set of inch-long, pumpkin-orange fake fingernails in a dispute at a Mount Vernon nail salon says a nail technician grabbed her and tried to pry the nails off.
The 48-year-old technician tells the Skagit Valley Herald that the dispute was strictly verbal. The woman says she and the customer argued over the design on the girl’s nails and the girl tried to leave without paying.
Once a police officer arrived, the 13-year-old girl and her mother agreed to pay $10. The technician says the nails and her labor were worth about $30.
Police spokeswoman Jill Boudreau says police are referring the case to the city’s prosecutor for a possible misdemeanor assault charge.
You know, sometimes I wonder if Sweet Baby Jeebus looks around and just sighs a bit and shakes His head and murmurs: ‘What the H*e*LL was I thinking?’
They’s jus’ gettin’ they nails did. No news there
Urr’bod gets a l’il hot when they f’in ta get ya like dat.
Drink side run the java.
They’s jus’ gettin’ they nails did. No news there…
HAHAHAHAHAA!
….ahhh. *happy sigh *
Thank you.
I remember kids doing a “chew and screw”
but not a “nail and bail”
Rome — One in six people in the world — or more than 1 billion — is now hungry, a historic high due largely to the global economic crisis and stubbornly high food prices, a U.N. agency said Friday.
Compared with last year, there are 100 million more people who are hungry, meaning they receive fewer than 1,800 calories a day, the Food and Agriculture Organization said in a report. World Hunger
As far as we can tell there is little or no hunger in our town. Obesity seems to be prevalent, though. If only folks could be convinced to cut a thousand or so calories a day and ship them off to those people who need them we’d solve TWO problems. Obesity at home and hunger in less developed countries.
Well you cannot convert this Malthusian/Darwinist.
“If only folks could be convinced to cut a thousand or so calories a day ”
Or the US could quit growing crops in the desert and save us some water. Cheap water compliments of the last Great Depression give farmers a means to grow in the desert but if water demands continue out west ?
If the organized religions exported birth control supplies instead of Bibles to those countries, they would risk being called racists but at least fewer people would starve.
true
War famine and disease = population control for those that don’t believe in birth control.
+100, Bill.
Absolutely agree!
Looks like the first true test of a nation’s citizens going Galt’s Gulch may be in Iran; the showdown between the peasants and the enlightened is about to begin.
Here’s something for the deflation/inflation debate:
M3 - 1970 to 2009 - multiplied by 23
M2 - 1970 to 2009 - multiplied by 14
M1 - 1970 to 2009 - multiplied by 8
Currency - 1970 to 2009 - multiplied by 18
Annual wages - 1970 to 2009 - multiplied by 9
Money expanded due to increased debt not increased wages
yes thats a problem and too much debt = deflation I think
I saw a great hanging sign in Las Vegas last weekend at a Town & Country Bank….”The only TARP you’ll see here is this sign”
Amount of people in the casinos was not too much lower then I’ve seen in the last year or two.
Friends of my cousins were having a foreclosure party. They bought a cheap place and are letting the bank foreclose on the McMansion they previously had…another couple who pretended to be rich, HELOC’d the crap out of it, spent it on vacations and cars and then gamed the system. Needless to say we didn’t go to the party.
Think I got a Gimme Jimmy button somewhere.
Shook his hand along a chain-link fence at a municipal Midwest airport during his rise.
“So You Think Owning a Home Will Make You Happy? Don’t Be Too Sure”
“Owning a home has long been viewed as the cornerstone of the American Dream, the foundation for a happy family life and long-term financial security. Now, a new research paper challenges that conventional wisdom. Wharton’s Grace Wong Bucchianeri, a professor of real estate, says her research shows that while homeowners experience significant joy, they also face more aggravation, spend less time with friends, and are even heavier than renters living in comparable homes.”
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2257
New York Times reporter chronicles his housing bubble misadventures in a new book titled, “Busted: Life Inside the Great Mortgage Meltdown”
“A New York Times economics reporter who should have known better, Andrews here describes how he bought a house he couldn’t afford with mortgages that almost bankrupted him during the Great American Credit Binge…”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aCGkD_WlNjoQ