The Housing Bubble

Thanks Stp,

I catch more military humor here in the Tampa area because of MacDill AFB.

I was at Macdill from ‘96 thru ‘99 when I was an enlisted computer programmer. Loved the Gandy bridge. And that little strip of illegal beach on the other side where the women are topless!

Not that I was looking….:)

I spent a lot of time at MacDill in 1983, back when CENTCOM was first getting going. I did a bunch of computer networking for them in the run-up to the Grenada invasion.

Well, well, well - All of the comments about the article have suddenly “disappeared” from the on line paper. Reminds me of when Scott Cole died and there were a lot on negative comments until - they were gone!

I have scuba equipment including tanks. It’s all stored in the garage. A can of spare air in the bedroom stretches the imagination a little too far.

Not sure I’d store my BC and such in the garage, unless it’s fairly well contained - all kinds of bugs around that can chew holes and such… at least that’s my worry.

Granted yeah a tank in the bedroom is a stretch, but like I say not totally unfeasible.

I keep the BCs and regs sealed up inside a nice plastic storage container to try and cut down on buggy infiltrations.

Storing scuba tanks in the closet is more than a stretch- it’s totally asinine. Nobody does that. A BC, maybe. Tanks? Yeah right.

I’m no more than a lowly snorkeler these days. I would have had to don my mask, snorkel and flippers and leaped for one of my big oak trees and prayed that the squirrels caught me. Of course, this is not without it’s problems.

I like to sleep nekked so that might raise a few tails and some chattering to see a nekked white boy sailing for their tree in the middle of the night.

Hey, everybody’s different !

Mikey, at least you’d have your eye protection on for those pointy twigs, and if you landed face first in the mud puddle you’d still be able to breath. Sounds like you’re set!

As for the squirrels, they have a nut fixation anyway so they might not mind your nudist jumping.

Hey sfbubblebuyer

I did my time sleeping on wet jungle floors and in dense bamboo thickets with screaming tigers, deadly little green snakes and giant leeches wiggling around. The same goes for those stupid ME barren deserts with their totally evil scorpions and sneaky little vipers.

Nothing touches my skin anymore, other that warm air, cool air, clean sheets and maybe a sweet “dirty woman”

I’m an ex-trooper and if it’s night, there’s a fire, then I’m doing this tailgate jump fast,dirty and al natural into the moonlight.

Heads up Squirrels …”Airborne”

One of my favorite songs:

Dancing In the Moonlight

We get it on most every night
When that old moon gets so big and bright
It’s a supernatural delight
Everybody was dancin’ in the moonlight

Everybody here is out of sight
They don’t bark, and they don’t bite
They keep things loose, they keep things light
Everybody was dancin’ in the moonlight

Dancin’ in the moonlight
Everybody’s feelin’ warm and right
It’s such a fine and natural sight
Everybody’s dancin’ in the moonlight

We like our fun and we never fight
You can’t dance and stay uptight
It’s a supernatural delight
Everybody was dancin’ in the moonlight

Dancin’ in the moonlight
Everybody’s feelin’ warm and right
It’s such a fine and natural sight
Everybody’s dancin’ in the moonlight

Everybody here is out of sight
They don’t bark, and they don’t bite
They keep things loose, they keep things light
Everybody was dancin’ in the moonlight

Dancin’ in the moonlight
Everybody’s feelin’ warm and right
It’s such a fine and natural sight
Everybody’s dancin’ in the moonlight…

-King Harvest

I have to admit, I’ve got 3 scuba tanks stored in my bedroom. Only because I live in an apartment. The rest of the gear is in a pelican case under one of the pinball machines in the main room. If I had a garage, that is where it would be. I’d die climbing down 6 stories of chain ladder with a steel 119 though.

This sounds like BS to me. Although I’m way out of practice - got my PADI card circa 1988 - you have to hook up lots of stuff, e.g. regulator, before you can breathe out of a bare tank. Why would you store all this stuff all hooked up and ready to go?

Reminds me of the old joke.

Arson investigation closed. Cause of fire: excess of insurance.

Dennis,

It was likely a Spare Air ™ emergency tank. They’re tiny little guys that look like thermoses that attach to your tank like the world smallest pony tank. I think the smallest ones even fit in BC pockets or strap to the front where the octopus would be.

They’re good for one ascent from 40-80 feet, depending on the size, I think.

You occasionally see them in movies, where some guy will grab one and sneak onto a boat with it without having all the scuba equipment to slow him down. Burn Notice did an episode in the first season where the guy used one.

Biltmore? In Arizona? If such a community were somewhere near Asheville, NC I would understand.

“Dude…” it’s an upscale district in Phoenix. Guess you never have been to Phoenix. Swanky mall, Ruth’s Chris steak house, Optima lofts…

Lincoln Blvd running at the base of Camelback Mtn with high end real estate.

Forget it, you won’t understand nor want to.

Isn’t that Phoenix hotel by Frank Lloyd Wright called the Biltmore? way cool….

Yes, it’s the Biltmore, but it’s not really by Frank Lloyd Wright. He consulted on its reconstruction after a fire in the 1930s, but he didn’t design it. It very much resembles his work, however.

No,

Alot of people dont like to be filmed. You have to be careful not to disrespect someone, hence, more goat dinners.

Went once but missed that. Will definitely check out next trip. Thanks Stpn2me!

Good Morning Step! How hot did it get?

It’s 110 plus right now. If you are on rocks or pavement its about 121 degrees.

I posted a story a few minutes ago. I guess the ben censors caught it, I dont see it posted. I may post it later..

Ok ,now I see the story..er, happening :). It really did happen alot like I said….

Stpn you and I are in the same heat zone. 114+ today.

Have an appointment in 30min and am not eager to heat up the tin can with wheels leaving my “cave” with fans.
Not comparing, just saying…

Stpn2me, got a book deal waiting for you…nonfiction, of course…

Stepn2me, we’re DW regulars ( week after Christmas ) and the last word was that Fulton’s was being brought back. They’re just “remodelling” the boat. The menu will be changed up a little but Fultons will be serving you crablegs soon.

I really don’t understand why the simple solution to health care isn’t applied. First, all health care policies, should have a $2,500.00 deductible. From $2501, thru 10,000 the insured should co-pay 20%. After that, all normal medical costs should be paid 100%. But, if you have a confirmed terminal illiness, you are made comfortable…nothing more…you die.
If you need a transplant..pay for it yourself.
Wanta stay alive for three extra days, with chemo, life suppport..at your cost.
Next, why does it take three doctors to review one x-ray?
demand one review and be done with it.
Finally eliminate all drug advertising. Get rid of the hypochondriacs.
If people would read their hospital bills and have a copy of the codes, it would amaze most of whats been charged for and not provided.
Lifes a risk…take personal responsibility and deal; with it!!!

Thank you for saying this, so I didn’t have to.

Yes, let’s go ahead and destroy one of the few gov’t programs that works well!

My guess is the vast majority can’t come up with the $2500 co-pay.

75% of all bankruptcies are due to medical expenses.

Many older folks who HELOCed their homes did for medical reasons.

The lack of empathy here is beyond the pale. Remember, one day, that will be YOU.

Summary of paper by Ning Zhu, an associate professor of management at UC Davis - link to full paper below:

Overall, Zhu concluded that debt accounted for more than 50 percent of recent bankruptcies, while medical problems caused just 5 percent and unemployment led to only 13 percent.

Zhu found that bankrupt households have bigger mortgages, car loans and credit card balances than solvent ones, but make less than half as much money.

Among bankrupt homeowners, mortgages were 3.21 times higher than annual household income, versus 1.73 times for solvent households. Auto loans were double the annual income for bankrupt households, versus 0.4 times for solvent households. And bankrupt households carried credit card balances that almost equaled their annual household income, while the average credit card balance for solvent households was 6 percent of annual income.

In addition, bankrupt households had a median annual income of $25,738, versus $43,341 for solvent ones. (The median is the midpoint in a set of values; a median income of $25,738 for bankrupt households means that half of the bankrupt households in the study made higher salaries and half made less).

Interestingly, more than 5 percent of bankrupt households owned at least one luxury automobile (average age of the car was 7 years), compared with 8 percent of solvent households (average age was 8 years).

The study also suggests that some Americans deliberately spend beyond their means with the intention of using the bankruptcy system to erase some or all of their debt, and recommends reforms to discourage such abuse.

“Our results emphasize that bankruptcy law reform should aim to address the issue,” Zhu writes. “Current means test focusing on income, rather than consumption patterns or adverse events, may not set the best criteria for sorting out the households who truly need bankruptcy protection from those that consume beyond their means to take advantage of the system.”

The research has been presented at Boston College, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, UCLA and Yale, and will be published in an upcoming issue of the Journal of Legal Studies, a publication of the University of Chicago Law School.

Full UC Davis paper (pdf) can be found here.
http://tinyurl.com/mqw7oz

That could be very deceptive data.

Zhu found that bankrupt households have bigger mortgages, car loans and credit card balances than solvent ones, but make less than half as much money.

The way this is presented it makes it seem like the bankrupt housholds are spendthrifts. Its possible the data is showing that people with lots of money don’t have a bunch of debt. Its not showing people with higher incomes are spending less and are frugal.

Might also indicate that people below a certain income level get caught in a vicious cycle.

There is also an aspect that behavior changes when people recognize they are in that cycle. So, take out as many cash advances as you can before you default and then hide your toys in a storage locker plan.

The car thing isn’t shocking. Us poor folks can’t deal with payment shock when cars break down. So, we need to have a newer car that will be covered. Probably going to get a crapier interest rate so balances will be higher as well. Not to mention poorer people tend to have bigger families so need larger vehicles.

There was a recent yahoo finance article on the high cost of being poor. At a certain level, its very expensive if you don’t have good credit, a bank account, washing machine, car to get to cheap food exc. Basically the predatory lenders, really bad ones like cashcall, really cream these folks. If you don’t have a washer/dryer cleaning clothes is very expensive. Don’t have a car? Means you might end up shopping at the convienence store. Need to use the check cashing store. Ouch, another 5% hit to your income. All things to skew the data.

Will read the paper later, thanks for the link.

Dammit, I just checked for reference and sources and it turns out the original study I was citing was skewed. It seems it it is indeed less.

Good catch jsocal.

But it also seems the current revisions are still in question by other universities.

Great. *sigh* Once again, we find that we cannot rely on any data in this country anymore as EVERYONE seems to be fudging the numbers.

Then I wouldn’t call it GENERATION greed, which implies an age cohort.

And I could be wrong, but I thought that both Medicare and Social Security are means tested.

10% of US population that owns 75% of the wealth

A. That sounds like one of the 95.3% of all statistics that are made up.

B. Why do so many people state that like it’s a bad thing? The underlying premise is that income should be distributed equally. We can see how well that generally works out.

Are the welfare recipients in California getting IOUs?

Not yet. Just 7.8% cuts in “benefit.” Some physicians have been getting IOU’s for several months now (again.) Makes operating a practice kind of difficult….

I’ve heard about the cash back scam where the mom sends in ghettokids to buy pieces of gum to get the cash for mommas alcohol.

But here in VA I believe they went to a credit card system. So I assume that it no longer works. I saw a lady use one on the same card terminal as a credit card would be used at and I wondered if the banks get a 4% cut of it all.

But here in VA I believe they went to a credit card system. In OH they use some kind of voucher card (looks like, but is not, a credit card) and a dedicated card reader system. No change is ever given, and I doubt the banks get much of a cut on transactions.

I doubt the banks get much of a cut on transactions.

hahahaha! That was funny!

Texas overwhelmed by food stamp, Medicaid applications

By Corrie MacLaggan | Thursday, April 9, 2009, 08:38 AM

Overwhelmed by an increase in applications for food stamps and Medicaid, the Texas Health and Human Services Commission has postponed plans to expand use of a new computer enrollment system, officials said today.

“The national economic situation has certainly arrived in Texas, at least in our offices,” said Stephanie Goodman, a spokeswoman for the commission.

Statewide, Texas is struggling to meet the 30-day federal standard for processing food stamp applications and the 45-day standard for Medicaid applications. For example, in March, the state met the food stamp deadline for 76.4 percent of applications (95 percent is the goal).

Enrollment in food stamps is up almost 20 percent from a year ago, according to the commission.

TIERS (Texas Integrated Eligibility Redesign System)

At a cost of approximately $300 million, TIERS does more and costs less than similar systems in other large states. For example, California introduced four separate systems with price tags exceeding $400 million each, and New York’s system cost nearly $330 million. The U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Food Nutrition and Consumer Services Division estimates that Texas has one of the lowest per-case implementation costs in the country.

Packman:

This was happening 20 years ago in South Carolina, with the $1 food stamps…I think its fed law to issue a debit card , so there is no cash back allowed

and buy a pack of gum for 35 cents just so they can get the 65 cents change to buy alcohol with? It happens constantly.”

It is more like a debit card than a credit card. I assume there is some contractor that gets paid, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it is a percentage. It could just be a flat fee per person for a given length of time.

Interesting - I wasn’t aware of the new cards, though it rings a bell. My encounter with the guy was in the late 90’s in CA, so presumably they didn’t have the cards then/there.

The new food stamp (yes, it’s now a debit like card) scam is to approach someone in the store, and offer to purchase their groceries in exchange for cash, discounted of course.

So some guy I don’t know buys me $20 of groceries, and I give him $15 cash.

Big problem with this plan? Hardly anyone carries cash anymore. Hard to pay the guy with your debit card.

Used to be you could hang around the food stamp office parking lot and buy the stamps for 50-60 cents on the dollar. Please don’t ask me how I know this.

“Used to be you could hang around the food stamp office parking lot and buy the stamps for 50-60 cents on the dollar. Please don’t ask me how I know this.”

You were poor once? No shame in that. Not everyone makes welfare a way of life.

We have met the enemy and he is us.

In a general sense, yes. In a specific sense, no. I doubt the enemy is “us”, meaning the people on this blog. Just because we have a representative form of government doesn’t mean that *I’M* going to take the blame for this debacle. The general populace? Sure. But I vote against bond measures, expansion of government, etc. Just because my vote is lost in the sea of irresponsible people doesn’t make this my fault too :/

(and I mean in general, not in CA as I don’t live there).

Speaking of California, I have had several home owning friends state matter of factly that they think Prop 13 is going the way of the dodos. These are people that have owned their homes for years, and a few for decades.

Acceptance is growing.

OK, then, who are– or who should be– the ultimate authorities in politics? Government officials, or the citizens outside of government? Does the government tell us what to do, or is it the other way around?

Does the government tell us what to do, or is it the other way around? That is a chicken-or-egg question. “Your fathers swore allegiance to my father, and I am the son of that father” is no less absurd than “50%+1 of those who bothered to vote chose me to rule,” and neither proposition has more apparent merit than “We are the best and the brightest, as were our parents; we are the natural rulers of this land, don’t you agree?” Or “I command the Army. Hail me, or deal with my Legions.”
The basic political act is not an election, but someone giving an order, and someone else obeying it. The basic process maintaining any system of government is that those who are on the losing side of the selection process, stand down & submit. Governments get into trouble when a big enough fraction of the people question the reason for obedience.

The ultimate authority is in fact comprised of elected officials elected by the electorate. The “govt. is bad” hobgoblin does little to advance your cause.

LOL at this whole discussion.

Are you folks who think that the government truly represents the people not familiar with the concept of “PR Machine”?

It’s what makes it not only acceptable for leaders to do things that otherwise we would find reprehensible, but even goes as far as to convince us the it was in fact some kind of mandate of the people, vis a vis their “voting power”.

We act as if the Nazis and the Commies are the only ones who ever used propaganda to their advantage; as if the MSM were some kind of puritan watchdog. That pretty much has never been true, but seems to have progressively gotten worse over time.

Sorry, but get a clue.

At this point the two political parties and their associated MSM wings are basically just like professional wrestling. They put on a good show, and even shed some real blood in their “fights” occasionally - but in the end they’re paid by the same folks to put on that show; the real Powers That Be.

The ultimate authority is in fact comprised of elected officials elected by the electorate. Nope, political authority is shared, in a cybernetic loop, no matter what system is in effect. That is one of the points of my original post.

I suggest you try this approach next time you need help with a project, such as maybe painting your house. “Elect” whichever guy lobbies hardest, then hand him a contract saying he won’t be fired for [2,4, or 6] years no matter how bad a job he does. Oh, and the contract should also say that he’ll have a 98% chance of being re-”elected” at the end of that term. And of course, once elected, he can change his mind and overrule your choice of paint color, type, etc., and sub-contract anyone he wants, and also increase the cost of the job as much as he wants, and you have to pay whatever he says.

Let me know how that works out.

Let me know how that works out. In what way is your post relevant to mine?

Don’t forget - he also has essentially unlimited funds to hire a PR firm to convince you that he did a really good job.

You do realize the PR machine has been around since the first President was elected in this country. The PR machine has been with us since the beginning of time.

And, speaking of that first President, recall that George Washington was quite image-conscious. I mean, the guy had custom-tailored uniforms when he was General Washington.

He also had quite a reputation for keeping a serious demeanor. Wasn’t just because of the painful wooden teeth. He also wanted to project an image as a leader, whether it was as a general or chief of state.

exeter: While I’m sure your comment was sarcastic, and I might even say enjoyable. But you remind me of what I consider to be an ethical dilemma.

I consider myself charitable, but I, and by extension we, have practical limits. If I feed a family, and they become dependent on me, and have more children, when my charity is exhausted, have not I created more suffering in the world? Would there be less suffering had I not fed them?

Or did I just kick the can down the road?

Shipping locally-servicable farm equipment and instructors and drought/bug/etc tolerant seedstock to an area might actually help them recover the area enough to live again.

This implies working…

It is my personal opinion, that only 25% of the poor are actually poor…the rest just like the lifestyle..

Does include some such people yes.

Didn’t buy during bubble = smart, with good credit.
Bought and allowed foreclosure when underwater = smart, with bad credit.
Bought and held when underwater = stupid, with good credit.

LOL

More like “If you bought a car for $10k, knowing it would take $100/month to keep it running correctly, but thinking in 3 years you could sell it for $20k, and have just discovered the car is now worth $6k.”

Obviously not a great analogy, but closer to the truth.

I bet some of them wish they could do that trick again!

Bought a 1 mill house in 2006, bought a house 3 doors down for 750k in early 2008 and let the 1 mill house forclose. Now they’re watching their old house sell for 500k.

Now they’ve got the foreclosure on the books, so good luck pulling the same switcheroo!

Yep.

The study of causes only addresses negative equity - but I’ll bet if prices had been flat instead of going down there still would have been a lot of equity-driven (lack thereof) jingle-mail, since lots of people were counting on the appreciation not only for profit, but also to cover the selling costs, and to pay off the credit card bills they had built up maintaining the alligator.

Agreed. We had discussed that a few times here back in 2005/2006. It only took “zero appreciation” to get the ball rolling.

People around here (San Diego area) were piling up debt in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars **per year** via HELOCs and cash-outs. They really thought this was “their” money…never realizing it was just the same as taking cash out on their credit card. Pure and simple debt. They were never “wealthy” unless they sold their homes and rented or downsized significantly (which most did not).

Sorry to hear about your sister’s cancer and job loss. That must have been so tragic for her.

Thank you for helping her with her mortgage payments. I hope she is feeling better.

They all but break records as they flee the premises. But beware of the clever ones whose pets or babies have food allergies, and cannot consume whatever it is that you offer.

My favorite was the broken fan belt.

That figure was a while ago, so adjust for inflation.

How did you manage to hang out on the capitol steps long enough to panhandle money.

If you tried that today CHP/State Police will run you off or off to jail in a heartbeat. There’s no foolin’ around the capitol grounds.

This was back in the good old days, though they were actually the bad old days when it came to finances.

You mean Goldman Sachs, right?

GS is definitely there, but it goes larger and deeper than just them. Throw in Citi, BofA, JPM, and probably a few others like Blackstone etc.

Actually, X-philly, more the post-Little Nicky days, the Joey Merlino reign. Two quick anecdotes ’bout that scene.

First, my brother knew Merlino only by name in the papers and was occupying a stool at the end of the bar in a Skinny Joey hangout very early one morning. Merlino strolls in with his entourage and apparently wanted all the stools at the end of the bar where my brother was sitting. One ‘roided out hanger-on gets a drink with a swizzle-stick/stirrer, downs it in one gulp, and just stares at my brother. I suppose my brother was a little inebriated and didn’t take the hint, so da goombah blows whatever he had in the swizzle-stick into the side of my brother’s face. I like to flatter myself and fantasize about what I’d have done in my brother’s position. But, truth be told, I probably would have done just what he did, i.e. put my tail between my legs and slink away.

Second, more recently, The Geator is still up to his old tricks. Spread the word among Atlantic City lifeguards that they wouldn’t have to pay cover charges over Memorial Day and, I think, would get half-priced drinks. Well, a whole gang of them shows up at Memories and, of course, doorman “knows nuttin’ ’bout ‘nuttin.” Kids were all set to walk away when Geator smoothed it over, made good at least on his “no cover” promise.

You have to at least respect Blavat for still being able to get his groove on at his advanced age. (and I mean strictly in a dancing sense, I have no personal knowledge of the other!) He is a walking encyclopedia of early rock ‘n roll and doo wop as well. So he must be tolerated.

It was Merlino who I meant to say re: Margate. (My friend’s daughter used to babysit for him at the beach manse). When I was trying to remember the name of that particular wiseguy, all I could think of was SHORT - and my diminished brain came up with Scarfo.

But they’re both currently living on the taxpayer dime, are they not?

p.s. I am glad for your family’s sake that your brother vacated.

X-philly: Yes, both are in federal prisons. Last I heard, Little Nicky’s down in Texas. Don’t know where Skinny Joey’s doing his time.

Been there a couple of times, on Old County Road in Belmont.

Seriously, I’d rather have a ton of ready cash sitting around than a mortgage payment when you’re expecting a kid. Who knows what could happen, and I don’t want to be in the situation where we can’t do what’s best for the family because we’re tied to a house.

“Who knows what could happen, and I don’t want to be in the situation where we can’t do what’s best for the family because we’re tied to a house.”

That’s how I’ve been selling it.

I said a few days ago: my wife maybe has one more year of renting after we leave Florida. I hope we’re close to bottom by then because, well, I love my wife.

I talked my wife into waiting by saying we’d look at properties, but only lowball. We’ve seen 2 things we liked, and lowballed twice. Both sellers opted not to accept our ‘insults.’

Anyway, the worst part is I’m terrified one of our lowballs might get accepted!

For instance, we’re about to offer 22% off of asking on a property that’s dropped ~18% off their original asking which was about ~14% off peak. I’m terrified they’ll accept and we’ll wind up owning a depreciating asset. But the wife is happier, and I occasionally enjoy submitting offers well into the six digits below asking. Keeps the sellers nervous, at least.

“They have visions of relaxing in a hammock all weekend or perhaps vegetable gardening, not mowing lawns and cleaning gutters.”

Its funny you mention this. When I saw the pic of the couple in the article lounging in those white chairs on the lawn I thought, “that’s probably the first time they’ve sat - and perhaps the last they will - in those chairs.”

Pictures like this go a long way to convincing people that “you too can live the lifestyle,” when in reality once they’re done drinking their sun tea 10 minutes later they look at each other and say “now what?”

+1 sleepless.

bingo sleepless.

You tell it, sleepless! It’s hard enough taking care of ONE house, keeping it cleaned, repaired, furnished, stocked with food, etc. Who wants TWO? I’d be run ragged. Not my idea of a relaxing weekend, heck no. Now, if you could afford a staff, like Martha Stewart, that’s a different story. Of course Martha gets to claim pretty much all her household expenses as business expenses since she features her several homes in her magazines and TV shows. Martha has it all figured out.

Right on! I learned back in my 30s when I was a PITIM payer (including maintenance) that things would go wrong when I was busy doing something I wanted to do. For some, tinkering around the house doing maintenance or adjustments occupies most of their free time. For me, I just take my mountain bike down my stairs and ride. Got lots of free time.

Life is too short to be a handyman for yourself as a second career. Boring! Renting an apartment beats home moanership.

Common ground is a beautiful thing.

Just a few more interesting tidbits: This week, where does Forbes say wages are FALLING the most? If you guessed NEW YORK, both the City and Upstate, you’ve got the top FIVE areas in the nation.

Cities Where Wages Fell the Most

No. 1: Rochester, N.Y.
Wage Decrease: -2.3%

In April, when the national unemployment rate was 8.9%, unemployment in Rochester was a relatively low 7.4%.

But the economy of the region has suffered heavily, contracting 4.4% since its peak. Many jobs have been spared; many wages have not.

No. 2: Syracuse, N.Y.
Wage Decrease: -2.2%

Syracuse, too, has a better unemployment rate than the national average–only 7.7%–but its GDP has contracted more than 5% from its peak. Those economic losses have to show up somewhere.

No. 3: Albany-Schenectady-Troy, N.Y.

Wage Decrease: -2%

When wages fall across a state, tax revenues to the state capital plunge as well. The New York State Comptroller’s Office reported that, in May, personal income tax revenues fell 44% compared with a year earlier.

No. 4: New York, N.Y. / Newark, N.J. / Edison, Pa.

Wage Decrease: -1.5%

Average wages can be disproportionately skewed by losses at the top. When a worker earning slightly above average loses his or her job, the overall average barely budges. but when financiers earning hundreds of thousands lose their jobs, it pulls down average wages quickly. Plunging salaries on Wall Street explain the fall in New York, and affect the rest of the metropolitan region as well.

No. 5: Poughkeepsie-Newburgh-Middletown, N.Y.

Wage Decrease: -1.5%

Up the Hudson River, the effects of Wall Street’s troubles reverberate. Poughkeepsie has only 7.2% unemployment and its economy has shrunk only an estimated 2.8%, but wages are falling.

(Great time to sign on to feeding an alligator for the next 30 years)

-2% in Houston. (a combination of hours and actual wages)

CB you are the man! That is beyond ominous. You got a link for that data?

Hi Exeter,

http://tinyurl.com/n6ymqw

From Forbes Online July 1, 2009

I agree with Polly. Try to push through now. It probably won’t get any easier as the years progress. (as a mom of three kids)

“Just git’er’dun ”

LOL. That’s where I am at now. I think the family goal is to have baby #2, finish up with USF, cross our Florida T’s and dot our Florida I’s, then split. It’s weird though, I’m becoming comfortable in my too-young-to-be-a-Florida-curmudgeon role.

I have a good Florida story related to my brown widow saga, but I have to wait for the Dr. to call me back.

As some of you may have noticed, I have a big mouth. In fact, it’s so big that it has a name: The Troublemaker.

Which means that getting and holding jobs has been, shall we say, a bit problematic. That Troublemaker has a tendency to open at the wrong time, and you can guess the rest.

So, to avoid such workplace indignities as dress codes (Slim’s family is lacking a fashion gene), drug tests, and rules about what can be seen on the office computer, I work for myself. Have done so fulltime since 1994.

I’ll be the first to say that this life isn’t for everyone, but it’s worked out well for Yours Truly.

I’ll be the first to say that this life isn’t for everyone, but it’s worked out well for Yours Truly.

well, Slim, you’re more than welcome to hire me to work for you. I’m happy to try out your lifestyle for a while

Actually, I’m the same way. I don’t do well with rules for the sake of rules, and bureaucracy for the sake of stroking someone’s ego. I imagine that’s what my references are telling the recruiter right this minute, actually

My background just doesn’t lend itself well to striking out on my own. I need to take a good hard look at how I might be able to re-orient myself to do so, though. After being out of an office for such a long period of time, I’m really not liking the thought of going back to it (even if the office is 5 minutes away from a bunch of wineries. Mmm, wine tasting over lunch….)

Sorry, maybe I didn’t take my final point far enough. I guess my point was that if you need the job, take the test, get the job, then try to change policy from within. Better you get the job and try to change the policy than someone who supports the policy…I think that’s a better way to effect change.

The only other option for change occurs when everyone agrees not to apply/test there, which is highly unlikely.

If you don’t need it, let them know why you won’t be going further with them but I doubt it’ll make a change, since as x-philly suggests, they’ll simply assume you’re a user.

Taking it even further:

If you get the job and you can’t effect change AND your principles are the most important thing you want to project, quit and let them know why.

Maybe then -but still I doubt it - they’ll rethink the policy.

i.e. - “a guy who passed his drug test is against drug tests. We just lost a great employee.”

“a guy who passed his drug test is against drug tests. We just lost a great employee.”

Good point. At least they can’t question your legitimacy at that point, unless they think you’ve recently developed a drug habit and don’t want to possibly have to be tested again.

Take the test, then tell them you don’t want the job. Tell ‘em you could never work for a company that employs such degrading tactics during its hiring process. Stick by your principles.

It’s their company, their rules. It’s a free country, right?

My favorite line is, “I don’t believe in recreational drug use, or religion.”

I hate the baggage fees too, but choose to net it out and do what makes sense for me. In other words, if the baggage fees will run me $30, compare price+$30 to what the other airlines offer. I know I can’t change the airlines by choosing to pay more to go with another provider.

I respect you thinking through the question, drumminj, but don’t see the value for YOU in pissing into the wind when you need the job. Especially in this economy, when to do some could cause you some real hardship. When you have more choices, sure, that’s a great time to make a stand, and if enough people do, we might effect change. In other words, know when you have leverage and when you don’t.

but don’t see the value for YOU in pissing into the wind when you need the job. Especially in this economy, when to do some could cause you some real hardship. When you have more choices, sure, that’s a great time to make a stand, and if enough people do, we might effect change.

Prime, I appreciate the comment. Does this not boil down to “only stand up for principles when it’s convenient?” I guess that’s the question at hand. I see your reasoning (the job’s in Woodinville. I think it’d be the worst possible commute from West Seattle short of working in Bellingham! - but I figure I’m better off putting up with the commute for a while and taking the cash while I can, rather than holding out, given the uncertainty in today’s economy).

Chances are I’ll sacrifice my “principles”, but I find it an interesting discussion. There’s “being principled”, and “being a stubborn ass”. I’m not sure that being the latter is in anyone’s best interest.

but I’m pretty well convinced that your using

Why would I bring it up here if that were the case? If I were actually using, this would be a stupid thing to try to take a principled stance on, as I’d be likely to fail.

At the least, it seems a silly thing to ask input on if it’s not really a principled thing.

Guess what? I also do my best to only patronize boarding places that don’t have breed bans. I make a point to pay cash when possible (or with check), even if I don’t get a discount.

If you notice my original post, I don’t go into details about why I feel strongly about this. It’s not relevant - the fact is I do, and was curious what people’s opinions were given that I do feel strongly. If you really want me to try to explain why it matters, to me, I can go into it.

Just because one objects to certain policies, doesn’t mean one has something to hide (DUI checkpoints, TSA, background checks, etc etc etc). If I *was* using, I’d be better served spending my time posting on 420 boards trying to get suggestions for detoxing, no?

I’m 100% in your court. I’ve been ridiculed for years for not signing up for grocery cards, and I try to pay cash. It’s none of their business tracking how many yogurts and rice krispies I buy. And its not like I’m loading up on boxes of sudafed to mix up batches of meth. That’s why I love Stater Bros, they don’t make you have one of these stupid data mining cards to take advantage of good deals.

Heck Oly, you’re easy.

For 3 beers and a large plate of tater tots, you’d volunteer to be the Sunday Morning burnt offering.

Make that FOUR beers and you’re on.
(As long as I get resurrected the next day in time for more beer. )

Priase BoB!

Can you ask them why the want you to take a drug test?

Seems like alot of talking and asking questions to me. Who are you to demand anything when they are doing you a favor by hiring you? I interviewed a few people for empty spots in my company. Here in the military, when we take command we sometimes have the opportunity to bring in people. You would be amazed at what I got. Alot of people who grandstand like that wont get hired because it looks like you are going to be a troublemaker. I dont need you to tell me this and that, I just need you to do a job and I need for you to be drug free. And no, your word that you dont do drugs isnt enough. People before you who were busted on the job high or drunk spoiled that for you. So I just moved on to the next person. That is why I drug test 10% every month. It’s very simple to me and I am not trying to be nasty. Take the drug test and get the job. Otherwise, start your own company where you set the rules….

Stpn2me, your points are well taken, however…

when they are doing you a favor by hiring you?

I find this statement to be off target. No one is doing me a *favor* by hiring me. They’re not doing it out of the kindness of their heart. They’re doing it because they themselves have a need, and they see that I can fill it. And at the price they offer/I request, both sides feel like they’re getting a good value.

Yes, the company provides something I want (a job), but I am giving them something they want as well (a skillset, background, and ultimately a product).

DAYUM im dumb I downloaded the new version and it works just fine……what a wasted 2 posts

your JT extension doesn’t work on the new firefox 3.5

Sure it does. What problem you having with it? Version 1.2 works in 3.5. I posted about it a week ago.

Actually, I have version 1.3 ready to roll out. Trying to re-do the website and documentation before I post it, though.

Send me an email if you’re having problems with 1.2.

your JT extension doesn’t work on the new firefox 3.5

Sorry, I was too busy using drugs to update it

(kidding. There’s a post in purgatory that explains it should work if you have version 1.2)

Hey missy, you got a prescription for those botanicals?