July 26, 2009

Easier To Have Bad News Rather Than No News

-by the Mysterious Flying Miser

Kermit Arnold, a 47-year-old business consultant from McLean, Virginia, has been living in his condo for 8 months without making a single mortgage payment, but his lender has yet to kick him out. He purchased the condo in 2004, but couldn’t keep up with the $2400 monthly payments when unexpected health problems arose. “In the midst of funding my business expansion in 2008, I developed some severe health problems, which then necessitated long term chemotherapy, which is still ongoing. For about eight months I had no income, was still paying business expenses, and had many large medical bills. Even with good insurance, the costs mount quickly. I even appealed to my church for financial assistance and received some,” says Arnold.

Arnold thinks he will be forced to move in about 2 more months, but he can’t get a straight answer from his loan servicer. He tried to restructure his loan, but the restructuring was put off while waiting for new legislation to take effect. Since then, he has gotten conflicting information about the status of his loan, and his attorney has not been able to clarify the matter any further. Kermit hopes his problems may be solved, saying “I’m sure part of the issue is the sheer volume of this problem nationwide, although I was not one of those who took out a loan I couldn’t afford or was speculating. I may yet learn that I made it through the pipeline and now have a restructured loan with a lower payment and no arrears. In some ways, it would be easier to have bad news rather than no news.”

Elizabeth Lake, on the other hand, has always paid her bills, but her neighbors haven’t. A 30-year-old public relations representative, she questions her neighbors’ integrity. She says the couple (in their late 50s or early 60s) moved to Reno from out of state in spring of 2006, and were initially upset to find rented homes in the neighborhood. They complained of the cars parked on the street, for instance. Since then, they have moved out, stopped paying the mortgage, and are now collecting rent from their new tenants (a couple in their early 30s with two kids).

Lake believes her neighbors haven’t paid their mortgage for about 6 months. The tenants told her they received notices via certified mail that the payments are behind and there is a possibility of foreclosure. When asked why the delinquent couple stopped paying the bill, Lake says “My observation is that they stopped paying because the husband took a job out of state, and the wife eventually ended up moving to be with him, and now they are paying rent on top of having their mortgage – they (like the rest of us who bought during that horrible time) are aware of how much the value has decreased in their home, and my guess is that they figured the easiest/best way out is to just let the house go. Better for them to deal with a little bad credit than be stuck with a house they weren’t ever planning on living in again.” She says the tenants are considering buying the house in a short sale.

Says Lake: “I’m frankly disturbed by the situation. I think it’s really shady for someone (in this situation) to be taking money from a renter and not put it toward the mortgage. Every month, they have been taking that money knowing they are not using it to make their house payments. I just think it’s wrong and puts the renters in a bad position. The renters basically will get kicked out of the home, unless of course the short sale option works out. It also bothers me because I feel it has an impact on my home and the rest of the neighborhood – the renters made a comment about how they’re continuing to let the yard go (looks horrible, weeds, dead grass, etc.) so that, when the house is appraised, they can get the lowest price possible on the short sale. I can see why they would want to do this to help themselves, but again, it’s affecting the whole neighborhood.

“As far as how I feel personally/morally about the whole situation (and the fact that this is happening all over America) is that people really disappoint me. I guess it bothers me that I am in a home that is now worth ½ of what we paid for it, but I’m not just jumping on the bandwagon and taking the easy way out. I think people need to be more responsible and follow through with the actions they initiated when purchasing a home for such a price. Don’t get me wrong, I do sympathize with those who are truly having a hard time and cannot make their payments (those that got caught up in the greed from the banks/lenders), but I know several instances (even friends of mine) who are just walking away like it’s no big deal. I think it’s wrong and irresponsible. I think it’s eventually going to affect those of us who are continuing to be responsible and dealing with the mess we got ourselves into. We can’t even refinance our home because its value is so low compared to what we owe on it.

“I found it interesting that the home owners never even gave the renters a heads up that they were not paying the mortgage (but I guess that was the whole point – take the money and run!). I think they could have at least gone to them and told them their situation was bad and that they couldn’t pay, and maybe tried to work out some kind of sale deal (or at least let them know they could be evicted). I believe the renters actually had to contact the owners when they got the notices to get them to fess up to it.”




RSS feed | Trackback URI

106 Comments »

Comment by bink
2009-07-25 09:44:21

Kermit? Really? Now Ben’s got his guest bloggers making up names too.

If the blogger wrote this it’s done very well. You should be getting published in a fish wrap.

Mana Mana!

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-07-25 09:51:58

Yes, Miser did the interviewing and wrote this. We are lucky to have a good writer volunteering here at the HBB.

I’ve never met a Kermit before, but then again I never met a Miser either.

 
Comment by PortlandDad
2009-07-25 10:25:31

I know a Kermit, an old family friend who also used to be my financial adviser. I wonder if he saw the bubble? (Somehow I doubt it, as my stepdad-his childhood buddy- is stuck with two upside down flips in suburban Detroit!)

 
Comment by robiscrazy
2009-07-25 13:37:39

Back in the late 80’s there was a Kermit in the office next door to me. He was a title examiner here in California, but also a hippie on the side. He was a Grateful Dead follower and hated being tied down to a house. Instead he lived in his van down by the river (and sometimes in the work parking lot). Looking back, he had the right idea.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-07-25 16:16:54

The only Kermit I know is green and starred in the Muppet Show.

Comment by Joe
2009-07-25 17:35:06

It’s time to put on makeup, it’s time to light the lights…

 
 
 
Comment by salinasron
2009-07-25 10:25:45

” I believe the renters actually had to contact the owners when they got the notices to get them to fess up to it.”

No I think that it would be a tad more fun to contact the loan servicer and pay the rent as partial payment on the note for the absentee owners.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-07-25 10:46:55

I think the bank would REFUSE the money , because it would forestall the foreclosure process..

you need a few months of complete non payment to proceed.

———————————-
No I think that it would be a tad more fun to contact the loan servicer and pay the rent as partial payment on the note for the absentee owners.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2009-07-25 10:51:40

Why on earth would you do that? Besides, I am pretty sure they wouldn’t even cash the check. These lenders/etc don’t have the insurance to be renting.

 
Comment by Big V
2009-07-25 11:07:43

I think it would be more fun to stop paying the rent and wait for the repo man to come by before getting a new rental. I can’t believe these tenants are allowing themselves to be taken advantage of like that.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-07-25 12:46:02

+1 Big V

 
Comment by Kim
2009-07-25 12:46:08

“I can’t believe these tenants are allowing themselves to be taken advantage of like that.”

I would think that too, except not taking care of the yard in order to get a better deal on the short sale tells me they are playing the game too.

 
Comment by PeonInChief
2009-07-25 13:25:45

Tenants should try not paying the rent, and in some cases–particularly if the landlord has abandoned the property–would get away with it. However, the tenants can be evicted for non-payment of rent and, if the landlord serves a notice to pay rent or quit, the tenant must pay, no matter that the landlord is in default. The tenant owes the money, whether or not the landlord pays the mortgage.

There are few exceptions, one of which is that the lender may, in some states with judicial foreclosure, ask that the rents be assigned to the lender.

Comment by Boynton Bob
2009-07-26 05:05:44

In Fl, when you receive the eviction notice, go to court, request a determination of rent. The judge sided with me, when I sued the landlord for fraud and lack of quiet enjoyment.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-25 11:17:07

The guy who ran into medical problems and it ended up affecting his business
is a different case from the walk-a ways . The guy with the medical problem is a hardship case and that could happen to anyone .The couple that split while taking the rents is a example of the moral hazard that came about because of the bail-outs .

I can’t stand the greedy buyers and I can’t stand the greedy lenders .Pages could be written on how the REIC/lenders /Wall Street/ set up the buyers in this real estate ponzi-scheme ,but the buyers greed is the other side of the equation . The buyers were operating from either fear or greed when they bought property they couldn’t afford .How many of these people would of bought property had they known that real estate would not of gone up ? Would home ownership of been so attractive under those circumstances ?

We have been sold a bill of goods that these buyers motives were simply home ownership ,rather than a quick tax free money investment or a ATM machine . The greed motive was how property was sold during the
boom by the industry ,and some sold based on fear ,( “buy now or be priced out forever”). I can understand why buyers ,who are now sellers ,feel they were conned ,but don’t try to tell me they were not greedy . That would be like telling me that a person who bought stock on margin in 1929 is a victim because their stock purchase during the hype
crashed .

Comment by Big V
2009-07-25 11:41:02

What I see here is moral hazard caused by the bank taking so damned freaking long to repossess the house already. Why pay the mortgage when you can live for free? The guy with the health problems is different. They should work with him because he can get back on track once he gets back to work, but the absentee LL’s? No way! That house should be taken back and sold already. There is WAY too much incentive for ppl to stop paying just because they can.

Comment by SDJen
2009-07-25 15:33:46

Moral hazard indeed. A woman at work hasn’t paid the mortgage in almost 2 years on a house in the Bay Area. Not sure what’s going on with the house now, but she stopped paying when she moved to take a new job. She’ll start paying when the loan modification is approved (at a new lower payment), but the process has been ongoing for more than a year now. The powers that be keep “losing” the modification papers.

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-07-25 19:00:08

‘She’ll start paying when the loan modification is approved’

It’s my understanding that the past due payments don’t go away. This lady may be in for a surprise.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by matthew
2009-07-25 15:35:05

Ah yes, there in lies one of the many lessons to this quagmire… the proverbial “right” to make a boatload off of one’s home… “I’m not going to make a boatload off this home you tell me, well, I’ll just stop paying then, so there…”

Yes, this housing bubble exposed how morally bankrupt much of this country really is… remove the flag and stick that on your little lapel pin ..

Comment by Jerry from Richardson
2009-07-25 16:13:58

Just because some people are scum doesn’t mean everyone is scum. Do their actions mean that you are also morally bankrupt?

I don’t understand why people are mad at the buyers. The lenders are more at fault for handing out 100% LTV mortgages. If they had required a 20% downpayment, would there be so mant people walking away? The lenders focused on quantity instead of quality and this is the result. The deal is that if you don’t or can’t make the payments, the lender takes the home as collateral. Where’s the problem? Why does the government need to get involved?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Tim
2009-07-26 06:30:38

“I don’t understand why people are mad at the buyers.”

Some of us wanted to buy a home at a price in line historical pricing ratios, but could not do so because lazy morons were throwing around money they didn’t have to buy things they couldn’t afford in the hope to get rich. The truth of the matter is that it is actually the buyer’s fault in most circumstaces. They were in the best position to negotiate the price, know their spending happens, and understand what they can afford. Note that many banks did not even act foolishly in lending the money because they sold it to investors through the securitization process so were made whole in any event. Anyhow the banks were never the buyer’s agent, and thus, the buyer should not be allowed to point the finger at the bank. Bubble buyers just need to admit there own stupidity and greed, and try to do better next time.

 
 
Comment by kirisdad
2009-07-25 16:36:06

+10000 Matt

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by Big V
2009-07-25 11:22:18

Note the way this guy’s health expenses tie in with the housing crash too. Ahansen’s post the other day drew a lot of comments regarding the cost of health care, and plenty of commentators on this blog have warned that too many people were not prepared to pay their mortgages in the event of an expensive healthcare bill.

Our well-to-do Kermit would have been just fine if either the health care or the mortgage had been affordable. But neither of them were. How many others will find themselves in a similar situation over the next few years? And how many people will be declining to continue their health insurance altogether as they become unemployed and need to eat?

Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-25 11:42:03

Good points BIG V ……I am wondering just how much the health care costs have been throwing peoples budgets out of whack ,causing them to be under insured . IMHO ,some of these insurance policies that the
Insurance Industry have been writing have so many loopholes in them that they are just as bad as toxic loans . I had top notch health insurance ,yet
that ended up being bad because it represented a great liability to the insurance company if they honored the contract and didn’t try to fight
it . Anyway ,that’s another subject in itself .

 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-07-25 12:39:41

“too many people were not prepared to pay their mortgages in the event of an expensive healthcare bill”

I’ve been mulling over this “people should be prepared for big medical expenses” idea. On the surface, I’m 100% behind the concept but then I think about how I paid $10 for the birth of each child including all prenatal care.

When I had cancer and we went in and scooped out bad stuff 3 different times I paid a total maybe a bit over $200 which I then turned around and got reimbursement from my medical spending account. It was simply an accumulation of a bunch of $20 co-pays. We went in again in the last few weeks. Still the same good deal.

My brother almost lost his leg (for a short time it wasn’t clear if it was his life that was on the line). He was hospitalized at a top hospital for months. Gov employee, gov equipement, gov location. You wouldn’t believe how I had to fight for coverage to be acknowledged while he laid in a drug cocktail and bone crushed pain induced haze and the damned hospital was going to him asking him to straighten things out. (No spouse, no fam that dealt w/his finances till I flew down) Anyhoo, in the end, once Washington got involved and cut through the bureaucratic red tape, his financers were NOT destroyed by the hospital stay.

So I guess my point is: The insurance companies have been slowing changing the rules and haven’t especially put out an all points bulletin on the changes. Some of us are still getting very good coverage even now. So when I hear some say they expect others in good health and not intimately involved with the system to notice, I can’t help but wonder if you might be asking too much.

Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-07-25 13:24:51

financers = finances. My edit skills are toast. Apologies.

Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-25 13:58:11

CarrieAnn …I don’t know if I should tell you this story or not ,but I will .
My wife beat cancer 20 years ago and it has been in remission .
The reason I went into the emergency room recently was because of a totally differently medical problem that came up . In spite of
her cancer in remission ,the insurance shills at the hospital tried throwing it up to me . I would say ,”What does cancer in remission have to do with what we are here for today? Are you telling me if someone had cancer that means they don’t get treated for other conditions ?” They were implying that if they spent a lot of money
on the current condition ,than she might die from cancer eventually anyway . I came unglued ,because it was clearly bad faith on their part to bring up cancer that was in remission and wasn’t even a condition we were there for . It was just a big excuse the insurance company was trying to come up with to
ration health care ,can you imagine . I got her transfered out of the original hospital i was dealing with ,but I still had to keep dealing with the same insurance company .

I know its hard to believe that insurance companies could be this bad faith ,but they are . I have talked to other people in which the same illogical lines were thrown at them in a attempt to ration care .

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-07-25 17:17:57

I watched the former CEO of Cigna, Mr Potter, on the PBS Moyers Journal (online). He left the industry because he feels for regular Americans and the nefarious industry, lobbyists, and the corruption got to him. He exposes a lot on all sides of the isle.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/healthcare/index.html

NPR had an interview with the current CEO of Kaiser Permanate. He’s for a well thought out universal plan.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106853465

 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-07-25 18:21:30

Thanks for the heads up Housing Wizard. I guess once I knew it wasn’t going away forever I knew that life was never going to be the same. I hope your wife got the help she needed on her current issue. Hopefully 20 years w/nothing is good news too.

Supposedly mine should be easy to just keep vigilante and simply keep cutting out the bad stuff when the cells decide to go to the dark side. It’s easy to know there’s a problem. Every time it was I that went to the doctor and asked them to check things out. When I hear the current industry discussions I wonder how much longer insurance will let me get away with that.

I also think but am afraid to find out for sure that I will never be able to return home to my beloved ocean side home w/o losing all medical coverage. My mother once said what the heck I’ll skip the surgery and maintain quality of life till the end. I think I have the same stubborn streak and probably won’t give a flying F when it comes to that. It would probably take 2-3 years to move to the end game. I’ll spend my last days in my little sail boat loving life with the people I love most. They can’t take that away from me now can they?

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-07-25 19:10:13

CarrieAnn,

As I understand, HW’s wife passed due to a hospital-borne infection when she had been long in remission and was being treated for something unrelated. I remember when he posted her passing - it was an emotional though understated moment - but didn’t realize the insurance company role until his recent writing. (I hope I didn’t get HW’s story wrong - if so I apologize HW.)

I was moved to reply to:

“I’ll spend my last days in my little sail boat loving life with the people I love most. They can’t take that away from me now can they?”

When it comes to that point, last days loving life with the people you love most is the best and no one can take it away from any of you!

 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-25 20:33:51

They better pay Carrie Ann ,or I will personally bunch them in the nose . Don’t give up faith that you can beat anything .

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-07-26 01:29:43

CarrieAnn,

I remember you posting a few years ago about your cancer “scare.” I thought it was benign. So sorry to hear that you have to deal with it on a continuous basis. Hopefully, you can continue to manage it for many, many years to come. FWIW, I’m glad you’re getting that “cheap” coverage.

 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-07-26 07:00:10

My apologies, HW, on not being aware of your loss. I didn’t mean to come across as insensitive. I appreciate the nose punching sentiment.

Thanks for keeping me ontrack, Zip.

CA renter,
Thanks. I always remember your very kind response to those posts. I didn’t want to get into it on the blog. It seemed so look at me. But now that it’s in the past (at least that’s how I’m livin it) I don’t mind referring to it.

I will take the time on this stale thread to urge people to not put off a check up if something seems off. I was first sitting in the waiting room of my specialists’ office at 45 w/ no one less than 20 years older around me. I don’t remember ever seeing anyone as young as I the many times I was in there. I do not fall into any of the high incidence groups. If I’d waited it would have become a much bigger deal instead of the teeny little slices they did take.

 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-26 08:14:53

The kicker is that I originally went to the hospital because of
a reaction to some new drug the Doctor gave my wife . So,you could say I’m bitter and still in trauma after weeks and weeks of
dealing with that medical system . For her to survive everything and end up dying from a germ from the hospital is just ,I don’t know , hard for me to take . But ,like I say ,I had many weeks to observe the medical system ,also regarding other patients ,
and came out feeling like it needed to be reformed .

 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-07-26 15:29:25

It is tough to get your head around, isn’t it?

One of my slides came back reversed and the doctor operated on the wrong side of the problem area. It was an issue because on that mistake he went into some important muscle which I can do excercises to strenghthen but will never get back. And then of course we had to go back in and get the side that was supposed to be removed in the first place.

I consider that the lab’s fault which for all I know could be run like an assembly line.

 
 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2009-07-25 14:12:00

Leading cause of personal bankruptcy every year since 2005?

Not foreclosure, not job loss but uninsured medical expenses.

The medical insurance crisis can’t be kicked down the road any further. Wheeling out boogeyman as a means to ignore it won’t work either. The medical insurance disaster is bound to the housing disaster and both must be dealt with. Not next year, next decade, next generation. The delay is over.

Comment by matthew
2009-07-25 15:45:08

I can believe that statement until 2006, then I don’t buy it since then…. housing #1 since 2007, then medical… I’m sure some of the medical since 2007 was brought on by housing as well..

By Alan Zibel
Associated Press
Friday, January 4, 2008; Page D07

Personal bankruptcy filings in the United States jumped 40 percent in 2007 because of rising mortgage payments, job losses and other financial pressures.

it got a hell of a lot worse in 2008, if I recall, when the market tanked and Paulson put a gun to all our heads and said we’re on the edge of the precipice if we don’t fork over $1T to his Wall Street scum buds… that less than 6 months when he said the economy was strong… there were a lot of people admitting themselves to hospitals after that, let me tell you..

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-07-25 15:51:20

Exeter, I have been slowly coming around to where I now agree with you. Never thought I would.

But we need to accept the fact that there WILL be rationing and the care we receive in the future will not be of the same quality we received in the past. There will be one doctor (whose English will be a newly-acquired skill) supervising several Physician Assistants, and long waits for most visits that will then be over almost before you can draw a breath.

For those who can afford it, medical tourism will become much more prevalent than it is today. For the rest, not as good.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-07-25 18:02:45

What you describe is happening now with HMOs. This is nothing new.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by exeter
2009-07-25 18:57:06

You took the words right out of my mouth SFBAG.

Bill..

I believe there will be a type of rationing but not the one you’re thinking of. It’s going to begin with a very painful conversation about choosing how long you’d like to live. I believe everyone of us in this country will have to make this decision. Not later but sooner. It will be a self-rationing process.

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-07-26 01:34:39

Very true, exeter.

My mom, who died in 2007 made a very wise statement with regard to extent of her care:

“If they were promising me 10 years of my 20s and 30s, I’d do it (chemo and radiation), but the reality is that I **might** get another 10 years…of my 70s and 80s. It’s not worth it to me nor to society to go through with it.

She ended up living an additional 9 years (though she did have one excisional surgery and took Tamoxifen (sp?)), and died peacefully in her own home with her loved ones by her side.

 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-07-26 15:43:11

We should all be so lucky (to have it like your Mom), CA renter.

My husband and I had that conversation already. It took place when the kids were young and we were putting our will & power of attorney documents together. I agree w/your Mom 100%. Funny my mil had a conversation with her dentist about redoing all her crowns. She just looked at him and said, At 80 years old. I just don’t think that expenditure makes a heck of a lot of sense.”

She told the story so matter of factly like why would anyone ever come to any other conclusion. Cracked me up.

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-07-27 00:18:06

As harsh as it sounds, society needs to make some decisions about what we’re willing to do for people in certain circumstances; and yes, we need to come up with a way to prioritize.

Personally, I’d be very willing to pay for children and parents/guardians of minor children, but for those who are just trying to get an extra 6 months at the age of 76, it’s hard to justify the expense (though they should always have the option of paying for the care themselves).

Thanks for sharing your story, CarrieAnn. Believe it or not, I’ve often thought about you and your health-related posts from back then. I wish you a very full and happy, healthy life for many years to come.

 
 
 
Comment by Joe Lawyer
2009-07-25 21:02:08

Really? You are going to be disappointed because nothing is going to change except you WILL PAY MORE and you will GET LESS.

Medical insurance should be for catastrophes, instead we have demands for full service medical care.

How about you go it on your own?

Comment by Jimmy Jazz
2009-07-26 00:20:59

Besides the surface heartlessness of this comment it’s very shortsighted. You only need to look as far as illegal immigrants and the working poor to see the results of a a “catastrophe only” system: PEOPLE WON’T GET TREATMENT UNTIL IT’S A CATASTROPHE BECAUSE THEY CAN’T AFFORD IT. Epidemics spread by food service workers. Children who go deaf from ear infections. Thousands of missed work hours from treatable ailments. We are much better off individually and as a society to make preventative care cheap and easily available. I certainly don’t expect a gold plated plan for free, but I do expect the richest country in the world to provide for the basic health care of its citizens, like every other Western democracy has done for decades. Rant over.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by TheMightyQuinn
2009-07-26 01:00:29

“…but I do expect the richest country in the world to provide for the basic health care of its citizens, like every other Western democracy has done for decades.”

I’m being completely serious here:

Can you name one country that has provided basic health care for its citizens? “Health care” being medical treatment whenever wanted or needed without delays or rationing? No country I have read about provides this for ALL of it’s citizens, and often obtaining that level of access depends on one’s wealth or status.

 
Comment by kirisdad
2009-07-26 05:33:34

The Obama plan as it stands is a cop out in favor of the insurance lobby and the American bar association. Typical political favoritism that will fail when the public hears the facts. I am starting to lean towards British/canandian socialized medicine.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-07-26 07:55:59

lmao…… at the moobats begin their barking…

 
Comment by bangkokobserver
2009-07-26 11:29:03

Having lived under the British National Health system and outside the United States paying privately, the British National Health wins hands down, followed by having treatment outside the United States. Although some doctors in BKK are ramping up prices to try to cash in on medical tourism, in general rates are much, much cheaper — and you get treatment faster.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Casa de Dolor
2009-07-25 11:32:08

A new law in Nevada, effective July 1st, requires the foreclosing entity to notify the tenants as well as the borrower of the foreclosure action.

Comment by Big V
2009-07-25 11:38:18

Yeah, the tenant was notified by certified mail. I don’t know if the letters were addressed to them or not, but they found out and continue to pay the rent. That’s the part that I don’t get. Why are they still paying?

Comment by In Montana
2009-07-25 12:19:43

If the landlord is still the owner of record he has the legal right to collect rent and to evict for nonpayment.

Comment by Big V
2009-07-25 12:35:55

I heard on this blog that it’s a federal crime to collect rent while not paying the mortgage. I think it’s a type of mortgage fraud or something. Not sure, though.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by PeonInChief
2009-07-25 13:28:30

It’s called rent skimming, but the aggrieved party is the lender, not the tenant.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2009-07-25 13:00:25

‘the legal right to collect rent and to evict for nonpayment’

He may cash the checks, but I can’t see a FB headed into foreclosure taking the time to do an eviction. Still ,it would be kinda ironic.

I wouldn’t pay rent to a person that wasn’t paying the mortgage (assuming I knew that), as he is putting me into a situation where I could get kicked out at any time. Isn’t there something that binds a person who is taking my money for rent to make sure I won’t get evicted by the lender? And if he is failing to do that, what the heck am I paying him for? It’s this ownership-limbo stuff that is probably the most bizarre thing going on right now.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by edward
2009-07-25 13:29:05

I’m in this situation right now. The landlord stopped making payments some months ago. Our lease ran out at the end of June, when we were paying $1,100 a month. We’re now month to month paying $800 with the knowledge that it will go back to the bank at the end of August. One reason we haven’t moved is that we would never be able to find a place as nice for $800 a month.

The thing is we don’t know what will happen after Aug. 31. Will the bank contact us and want us out as fast as possible? Will we hear nothing from them because of the sheer number of foreclosures now in the system and get to rent for free?

I thought there was a new law recently that said renters must be given at least 90-days notice when the place is sold. So I’m not expecting to be out any quicker than that unless the bank does a cash-for-keys offer.

 
Comment by PeonInChief
2009-07-25 13:30:47

Unfortunately landlords frequently threaten tenants with eviction, even after the Notice of Trustee Sale has been served. And they’re legally entitled to rent until the date of sale, no matter that the building is about to be foreclosed. And almost all tenants in the US now have the right to 90-days’ notice to vacate after a foreclosure sale.

 
Comment by Boynton Bob
2009-07-25 19:23:56

I sued my landlord and won for lack of quiet enjoyment.
The HOA told me I could not use the pool etc because my landlord had not paid the HOA. They also threatened not to let me in the security gate at the entrance. Stopped paying rent, took it to court, and won the right to break the lease, and not pay the rent, and got a judgement for atty fees.

 
 
 
Comment by Kim
2009-07-25 12:56:17

“That’s the part that I don’t get. Why are they still paying?”

They’re hoping to buy the house from the bank in a short sale, so they have to keep their credit clean would be my guess. The landlords may be deadbeats themselves, but they could still throw a wrench in the tenants’ plans.

Comment by GH
2009-07-25 20:17:52

I think the key in this situation is to sue the land lord. I am guessing that if you offered 1/4 the rent or you would sue most landlords would take it.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-07-25 12:52:22

Thank you state of NV. Here’s hoping the rest of the states follow suit.

 
 
Comment by palmetto
Comment by wmbz
2009-07-25 13:15:00

Yep, I don’t think cave dwelling is for me. The bugs sucking blood from under my nails would be a tad much for me, but then I’m a wimp that way.

Comment by palmetto
2009-07-25 13:49:45

Those “kissing bugs” cause chagas disease:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagas_disease

Which you’d think this guy would know, having been in South America and having some medical background.

That said, I imagine there are some things that could be done to make a cave more livable. And I like indoor plumbing myself. But simplifying one’s life and not being a slave to the system does appeal to me.

 
 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-07-25 15:03:15

The first time I visited Petra, I stayed for a couple days in a cave with a beduin family. It was clean and dry and comfortable, whitewashed inside. The family claimed to have been settled there a couple hundred years.

The government was then building a cement block village for the beduin outside the entrance to the wadi. King Hussein considered that progress, but I thought it was sad; the beduin didn’t want to move there. He thought that sanitizing the wadi of these people and their simple lifestyle would make it more attractive for tourism. But surely there was a way that both tourists and beduin could have benefited from the site having beduins living a traditional life there.

As a tourist, I enjoyed seeing and hearing people out herding sheep and cooking at fires outside their caves. I got to have awesome private time at the monuments in early mornings and evenings when there were no tourist groups, and I felt safe hiking alone since there were shepherds around. And even people doing a more standard tour of the site enjoy doing things like “drink tea with bedu.”

Comment by DennisN
2009-07-25 18:30:39

King Hussein tried to reach out to ordinary westerners.

Great and true story. A guy I knew at Lockheed named Floyd was a HAM radio guy. One night he picked up a distant transmission from arabia. The guy on the other end just said “call me Hoosey”. They chatted about things for a while and then Floyd asked Hoosey to send him his QSL postcard (a postcard HAM operators send one another to prove they made the connection).

It came posted on Royal Jordanian franked stationary. He’d been chatting with King Hussein.

Comment by hip in zilker
2009-07-25 18:34:58

“call me Hoosey”

Great story.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by robiscrazy
2009-07-25 18:43:53

That’s wild!

Makes me wonder about the content of the conversation?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DennisN
2009-07-25 22:47:19

Floyd told me this story in the early 1980’s so I’m guessing the QSL took place in the 1970’s.

HAM radio was the equivalent of forums and blogs back before the Internet became commonplace. It was the only place back then where ordinary people - and perhaps a few celebrities - could hang out and chat.

Hussein’s worldview was heavily filtered by the press and his courtiers. In his position it was impossible to travel incognito and shoot-the-stuff with people in other countries. So he turned to HAM radio in order to fulfil his desire to have a “Prince and the Pauper” type of experience.

I often wonder whether senior people in governments throughout the world post anonymously in blogs like this to get some unfiltered thoughts.

 
Comment by robiscrazy
2009-07-26 03:20:13

Very interesting indeed.

 
Comment by tresho
2009-07-26 11:29:18

I often wonder whether senior people in governments throughout the world post anonymously in blogs like this to get some unfiltered thoughts.
I have read posts on other blogs with insider details so specific that you had to wonder that some senior official wrote them.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-07-26 12:17:51

I remember the ham radio set my Dad and Grandpa had. They loved being able to talk to people from around the world. My dad got so excited one time because he had contacted two people in South America.

I remember the world map my Grandpa had hanging along side his ham radio. The map had all these stick pins in them. He told me the stick pins represented the people he had spoken with.

 
 
 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-07-25 18:54:30

Thanks for sharing those memories. They’re really lovely.

 
 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-25 13:03:17

Those walk-a-ways knew they were going to walk ,so they weren’t
being very nice to the renters . I bet they gave the renters a song and dance about a job transfer and all ,but did they care what they misrepresented to the renters ?

Why doesn’t the whole world just walk and all the rest of us pay for it ?
Nobody thinks about how individual acts add up to black swan events
if enough people do it .The crazy mania was a black swan event because enough people did it . If people can be this brainwashed ,and Wall Street can be this greedy to the point of creating a meltdown ,than strict regulations and penalties are the only solution . Hearing Wall Street argue about how this regulation or that regulation will kill free enterprise is funny . Unregulated capitalism combined with unregulated slave wage Globalism has brought down the entire financial system .

The biggest creep over spender I know is the only person that has got a modified loan and reduction of 30% of the prior loan payment ,because of the credit card debt that was run up after the original loan was
made .
I’m just ranting .

 
Comment by palmetto
2009-07-25 14:36:08

“people really disappoint me. I guess it bothers me that I am in a home that is now worth ½ of what we paid for it, but I’m not just jumping on the bandwagon and taking the easy way out. I think people need to be more responsible and follow through with the actions they initiated when purchasing a home for such a price. Don’t get me wrong, I do sympathize with those who are truly having a hard time and cannot make their payments (those that got caught up in the greed from the banks/lenders), but I know several instances (even friends of mine) who are just walking away like it’s no big deal. I think it’s wrong and irresponsible. I think it’s eventually going to affect those of us who are continuing to be responsible and dealing with the mess we got ourselves into. We can’t even refinance our home because its value is so low compared to what we owe on it.”

I can really empathize with this. The best advice I could give here would be to say it’s one thing to fulfill one’s obligations, it’s quite another to be a schmuck and take it on the chin while others shrug and walk away. You have to do what’s right for you and your family and that’s your first obligation. The “rules” have changed, evidently and there’s nothing moral about playing by the old rules when everyone else is playing by the new rules, especially if you’re going to get eaten alive. It’s a sad commentary, but even the rule of law in this country seems to be capriciously applied, at best. So the most moral thing for decent folks to do is to be aware of how circumstance are and prepare to defend oneself. That house will probably never be worth what was paid for it, at least not in the forseeable future. Don’t be a schmuck and sacrifice yourself for institutions and people that don’t deserve it. Do what you have to do to protect yourself.

Comment by matthew
2009-07-25 15:55:17

Although there are a whole lot of scum who bought houses for the wrong reasons, I’d still advise even those low lifes to walk and give the overpriced POS back to the bank where it belongs… this is war… Wall Street thugs vs the rest of us.. Make no mistake about it…. Wall Street chose housing as the median for transferring our hard work, savings and wealth to them… It was the perfect median, as it was high cost to begin with, and we all need homes to live in.. serfdom for us all courtesy of the scum in NY and all their cohorts.. well, to hell with them … sit on your house till the last day and then give it back to them at the price they goosed it up to and let them swallow it back and eat the losses… as it should be in war…

Comment by exeter
2009-07-25 19:18:58

Scum…. wallstreet thugs…. war….

Beautifully written.

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-07-26 01:54:37

Yes, excellent post, Matthew.

 
 
Comment by GH
2009-07-25 20:24:05

I did not buy during the mania, but have friends who did. All were lied to and told they could just refi in a couple of years and that the price would continue to increase - you know better get in now or be locked out forever etc. Many were not given the real scoop on mortgage terms etc, so I doubt walking is undeserved… I feel the same way about CC companies who just jack rates on existing balances to 30% for little or no reason at all. I know a person who works at my old company and disclosed they are some 40K in debt. Recently ALL of the cc companies lowered their limit and over-limited the person as well as jacking their rates to 27 - 34 %. I said I would not give it another moments thought - file for BK and stop losing sleep to these crooks. If enough people do this perhaps there will be real financial change and regulation in the USA.

Comment by drumminj
2009-07-25 20:50:22

If enough people do this perhaps there will be real financial change and regulation in the USA.

While I agree it’s a dick move by the CC companies, the bottom line is your coworker agreed to that contract. Next time don’t deal with a creditor under such unbalanced terms. And if you can’t find a creditor who won’t offer fair terms, then don’t take out a loan. If they want to earn interest, they’ll have to offer credit at terms that people are willing to agree to.

Comment by GH
2009-07-26 17:30:57

I would tend to agree, but when medical and other necessities are skyrocketing and wages are flat - declining, you use whatever resources are available at the time. I know this is not a real way to live, but it does not make it right for CC companies to raise fees to the point that it is impossible to repay. A better solution would be for the CC company to do what they used to do and cut off an offending borrower at some point allowing them to begin repayment at the agreed terms, not some new terms they dreamed up. Remember most CC terms state they can raise your interest rate without cause or notice, and on existing as well as new balances.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by SDGreg
2009-07-26 04:00:32

If enough people do this perhaps there will be real financial change and regulation in the USA.

I think this is what needs to happen to finally force the necessary changes - mass default of most consumer debt.

What’s happened so far is much too little much too late.

 
Comment by Watching the Carnage
2009-07-26 18:52:28

I’ve always been baffled by the “you can refinance in a few years” - HUH? If you can’t afford it at historically low rates or neg-am terms, then what benefit does a refi provide?

Comment by Anonymous Coward
2009-07-28 07:57:33

You can take out lots of cash and use that to pay your mortgage for a while. When you run out, you refi again. Since the property value will be going up so fast, you will be building equity faster than you can spend it.

Truly delusional.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by REhobbyist
2009-07-26 11:17:32

I saw a lot of patients last week, but the one I think I helped the most was a young diabetic woman. In 2005 she bought a house with a 30-year-fixed, 20% down, in a neighborhood that has crashed by 60% since. She and her partner have been dutifully paying their mortgage, even though the house is worth $200,000 less than its original price. This year she has a 15% furlough and her partner has been laid off. All of their money goes into the house and they are drowning. Her health is deteriorating because of the stress. I advised them to stop paying their mortgage. They replied that they weren’t raised that way, and that they would never do anything illegal or dishonest. When I told them that it was neither illegal or dishonest to walk away from a mortgage they were surprised. They own a little house that has a small mortgage and that they rent out, so it would be easy for them to move into it. I hope they do.

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2009-07-25 14:46:24

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel that the “system” is breaking down at a mad rate? Seems to me like it is a case of “the rules are: there are no rules”. As far as I am concerned, the death blow came the day AIG, Goldman, et al were bailed out. At that point, the game was more or less over and we’re dealing with a confused mess and nobody really knows what to do.

So, do the best you can to protect you and yours, try to do right by other decent folks, too. Screw the rest. Really.

Comment by matthew
2009-07-25 15:46:43

Agree completely… it’s a whole bunch of baloney…

 
Comment by bink
2009-07-25 15:50:34

Hey, don’t forget Fannie and Freddie!

 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-25 16:53:13

Yep palmetto ,I’m feeling the way you are . It’s out of control like a dam breaking and most people are in the pathway of the flood . After I pay my medical bills (which aren’t real bad ,considering ), I will continue to pay my house payment ,as long as I have income I guess .
Everybody talks about not being able to afford medical care ,but do you think the system can afford everyone walking away on their mortgages and credit debt ,I don’t think so .

 
Comment by Rancher
2009-07-25 17:14:08

Agree completely….on another note, we are free
of debt, totally, and have a catastrophic medical
insurance plan that works well for us. We pay the
first $2,500, then 20% up to ten grand, and then
nothing. Twice we’ve had to use it and the insurance company actually paid more than required. We just got a bill from our orthopedic
surgeon from 8 months ago, we were told that this is how long it had been circulating back and forth between their office and the insurer.

Comment by GH
2009-07-26 17:34:59

I recon all insurance should work this way. Car insurance is for when you have a serious wreck or the car is stolen etc. Not for oil changes… Similarly people need to pay for basic care at a reasonable rate which does not differ from the rate the medical establishments get from insurance for basic day to day care.

 
 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-07-25 19:06:47

I realized I “checked out” on the news a few months ago. I think it was when Obama suggested the Fed Reserve should be granted “ultimate power”. I just couldn’t take anymore. I dunno. Maybe I read KD, Zero Hedge and Jesse too much too. LOL

You know the ocean, the mountains, my friends and family, a higher power if you’re so inclined….they’re always there. I try to stick to the constants these days instead of the whirlwind. Remember when Hoz cautioned us to cut through the noise?

Comment by palmetto
2009-07-25 19:50:45

Good one, Carrie. I’m with you.

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-07-26 02:01:11

I also became upset about all the obvious, fraud and manipulation — to the point they weren’t even trying to hide it anymore. We’ve been camping and doing our thing instead of my sitting in front of the computer, obsessing and getting all worked up about the daily offenses being committed by those in high power. To heck with them.

We’re out of the stock market (have been since getting out of all our short positions last October), and out of the housing market until the smoke clears and things begin to make some sense again. What’s going on right now in the political and economic realm is surreal…and there’s nothing we can do about it (as was evidenced when they passed the TARP and all the successive bailouts that ran totally against the taxpayers’ and voters’ wishes).

 
 
Comment by tresho
2009-07-26 11:33:07

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel that the “system” is breaking down at a mad rate? The “system” has been breaking down for millenia. New naive participants with more energy & hope than experience & cynicism keep showing up to supercede us old pharts.

 
 
Comment by Rich
2009-07-25 16:21:08

The rental next door to me has been busy this past year, young guy moved in and stayed about six months then moved out. The next guy moved in stayed about six months and then moved out. Where did they go ? both moved about two blocks away to better houses with cheaper rents. It’s been awhile since I’ve posted here (I just got burned out) but now the foreclosures are sproting up around me like weeds. The other house next door to me was sold to a lady at the peek of the market with a ARM loan. She made it almost two years till she fell behind in the payments and just sold the house to and mexican guy in a nice suit for $5000 and she walked away. This guy cleaned it up tried to sell it (couldn’t market crashed) then did a shady deal with some non-english speaking mexicans. These mexicans didn’t even make it two years until they pulled up in a pick up truck and cleaned out anything of value (stove, sink, dishwasher, fridge, cabinets…) and drove away. I looked up house on the county website (old 1000 sq ft house) and the numbers were it sold for $87,000 then sold for $180,000 (first lady with ARM) then sold for $243,000 (non-english, loan who knows) and then sold to the current lady for $89,000. What I noticed was younger white couples were buying houses cleaning them up and staying in them around me. It’s like a bad wave came through my area (get rich quick people) then they walked away from houses when there was no more profit in it to keep it. This is just the tip of the iceberg in my area (High Desert CA) now the big thing here is “Affordable Housing” = Section 8 apartments, this area has turned into the dumping grounds for the poor and gang bangers. I can’t wait to move…

Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-07-25 19:09:32

Nice post, Rich.

 
Comment by SDGreg
2009-07-26 04:05:32

This is just the tip of the iceberg in my area (High Desert CA) now the big thing here is “Affordable Housing” = Section 8 apartments, this area has turned into the dumping grounds for the poor and gang bangers. I can’t wait to move…

No one should have to put up with that. Housing for poor people is one thing, housing for low-lifes something else.

 
 
Comment by JustSayNo
2009-07-25 17:14:37

With no money for mortgaged homes that are 50% overpriced and not tax revenue from those homes, will governments go belly up. Will the government workers against health care they are without health care because the rest of us can keep them on their taxpayer benefits? This does seem to be headed down the tubes and right now the only ones really fighting reform are those who believe they are being taken care by their government jobs, homes, paychecks, institutions.

Comment by SDGreg
2009-07-26 04:11:11

Some are clearly fighting chance because they have a vested interest in things not changing. But how many are opposing necessary restructuring because they don’t realize that fundamental changes in the economy have occurred?

The economy that we are likely to have for some time to come, maybe decades, will not support past levels of government (or private) spending. Many, many things are going to have to change. This is not a normal (compared to the past 50 years) cyclical downturn, but the beginning of a period of significant and more fundamental changes. It’s not going to be pleasant for many.

 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-25 17:46:53

Wow ,thanks for the story .

 
Comment by CentralCoast Dude
2009-07-25 23:36:26

Listen to this: I just moved into a rental on the central coast of CA. It was advertised on CL at 2700 sq ft and it turns out to be 1937 sq ft. Only my wife saw it and it was a quick peak with tenants still in it. The landlord is a d-bag and only offered an 8% reduction. What am I to do? I am too burned out to move so soon. We came from a 2400 sq ft and have squeezed in this one by not opening all the boxes. It is a 12 mo lease for $1950 per mo.

Comment by robiscrazy
2009-07-26 03:42:38

Let’s see:

1937/2700 = .717 =~ 72%

.72($1950) = $1404

New Rental Payment = $1404

There. Problem solved with division and multiplication. Just tell the new LL that he needs to add 20% to that 8% discount.

I’m joshing around, but seriously…could you find an average rent/ft2 for the geographic area and multiply by 1937?

How about you say you’ll agree to the 8% if he draws up a new lease that is month to month or only 6 months? You may not want to move now, but you many want to leave sooner than a year.

Does it specify anywhere on the original lease that the unit is 2400 ft2? If yes, you could argue the lease is null and void because of the misrepresentation.

Comment by pismoclam
2009-07-27 19:53:19

If one of my tenants tried to muscle me on my rental rate or lease - you can kiss your a-s goodby. I don’t take crap from my tenants nor do they get it from me. It’s a mutual contract as it should be!!!

 
 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-26 06:09:08

I’m up early cause I can’t stop thinking about the financial mess that Wall Street created ,the big mess of the Health Care industry ,the big mess of unemployment figures ,the power of the lobbyist ,and all that jazz .

I have really been harmed from the fall out from the greed that knew no bounds from Wall Street . The powers keep trying to maintain corrupt systems that benefit Wall Street only ,but total overhauls are needed in the financial systems as well as the Health Care system . As long as the Big Business lobbyist can get what they want by buying votes ,Main Street America is screwed . It’s gotten out of hand ,it’s corrupt ,these people are insane and they have control . The moral hazard of not busting the corruption of the financial systems has us still in a state of no regulations and more bail outs in the future for Wall Street I suspect .
They own the air waves ,they own the PR machine ,money is truly talking instead of what is right for the Country .This greed machine does not care about America ,or people ,or anything other than keeping their
profit margins and they are insane . They twist the arguments and try to make it look like your attacking capitalism and the American way if you attack them . It is they who sold out America with their greed that knew no bounds . The Paulson Tarp Bill was a perfect example of how they work ,and still no regulations because they don’t want anything to
take away their advantages ,and they even want to control who the regulators will be ,no doubt something that will give them their way .
They should of purged the current players and than they could of melted like the Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of OZ .

 
Comment by Mark
2009-07-27 15:01:33

We’re seeing this more and more in San Diego….it’s a complete mess and the shadow inventory is going to kill this real estate market for years. If only people were more aware of the games the banks are playing

 
Name (required)
E-mail (required - never shown publicly)
URI
Your Comment (smaller size | larger size)
You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

Trackback responses to this post