July 30, 2009

Fighting With An Arm Tied Behind His Back

A guest post by NYCityBoy

Bloggers love to sit on blogs and discuss what is going on in the world. We read the garbage being pumped out by the mainstream media and critique their objectivity. I believe most of us believe that their efforts are juvenile, disingenuous and in general a complete joke. Everybody is a victim to the mainstream media, regardless if it is CNN, The New York Times or CNBC. They just choose different victims. The depth of their reporting is appalling. It does not seem like their reporting resides in the real world.

When I was told that I would be given an opportunity to be a guest blogger on the HBB it was a great honor. But I had to think of what I wanted to do. I decided that I wanted to bring my experiences to the blog and the experiences of regular people. I will be doing a series of interviews with “regular guys” that might give everybody a better understanding of what is going on in the real world. The first interview in this series is my interview of Jason, a guy that feels like he is fighting with an arm tied behind his back.

I have known Jason since 1997. It was back in my days living in St. Paul, Minnesota. We worked in the same building and developed a friendship. Although we did not work together I could tell that Jason was a hard working and responsible person. You could tell that he cared about the job that he did and took pride in doing a job right. His co-workers did not take nearly as much pride in their work. Jason always reminded me of a guy from a bygone day. I could have pictured him working on a railroad or plowing a field behind a horse drawn plow. He is not a big man but he had a heart that shouted out his rugged individualism.

I left Minnesota in 2000 but kept contact with Jason over the years. He changed jobs after I left. He was making more money. He had a new girlfriend. Things seemed to be going very well for him.

A few years ago Jason hit a rough patch. The bank that he worked for was snatched up by a larger bank. The corporate bank did away with many long time employees. They also did away with Jason. The relationship with his girlfriend ended. Jason found a new job but at a much lower income level. Shortly after this Jason got a DWI. This caused him to lose the job he had.

I could tell that all of this had been difficult for Jason. He could not drive. Finding a job was difficult. He was without a job for nearly a year. During that time he did something that the Jason I knew would never have done. He went into debt. He lived off of credit cards and got himself into a hole. Eventually he found himself in debt to the tune of $25,000.

We all have a unique story. Jason’s story is unique but it is not unusual. We all hit rough patches in life. Many of us are seeing people that have gone through their own rough patch. Getting out of that rough patch can be even more difficult when faced with the prospects of digging out during the worst economic downturn in 80 years. As the wizards of Washington try to bailout “homeowners” (and banks) it does nothing for guys like Jason. They need an economy that has decent jobs. They need an income that can allow them to dig out. The Federal Reserve talks of an ending recession and stabilization the way they do in this article. It is easy to speak of recovery from the terrace of an ivory tower.

Jason does not expect anybody’s sympathy. That is just not the type of guy he is. But I wanted to share Jason’s story so we can see what regular people are facing. Jason is just a regular guy and this interview sheds light on what regular guys are going through during this time. Let’s see if he agrees with Bernanke and the positive crowd.

Have you made any attempts to use a third party to help you with your debts?
Yes. I used an organization called Campos Chartered Law Firm for debt consolidation. I was paying them $423 per month. It had got to be $4,799 before it stopped. I didn’t even get a phone call from them to let me know that they were getting shut down. They went into receivership.

Did any of your money ever go toward any of your debt?
No. I didn’t read the fine print. The first year all of the money you sent them goes into an account. I didn’t know that the first over a year went for legal fees. The first 16 payments, or something like that, went towards fees. They never mentioned that during our talk.

Do you remember what they said they could do for you?
I can’t remember how much they said they could get it down to. They said they would take my debt and once I got enough in my account they would start negotiating. There were too many papers, too many little tiny frickin’ words. They said it would take four years to get paid off through them. They stated that they could help me get my debt paid off in 4 years. They said it would take 50 years if I made the minimum payments.

Now that Campos is out of the picture have you been able to deal directly with the card companies?
No. I’ve been dealing with their collection lackeys.

What do the lackeys tell you?
They tell me that they need $7,000 odd dollars now and they would call it even.

How much do you owe on this card?
I think I owe twelve on that one.

So, they will deal with you?
Yeah. If I had the money I could get rid of this sh*t right now.

What has the other company offered?
I can’t remember. They call every three months. In September I will get calls from both of them. One of them is going to try to up my payments.

Have you thought of bankruptcy?
No. I’ve been told that that is not a good thing to do. I have not looked into it. I know my credit is not good now but I don’t know how much worse it would be if I declared bankruptcy. If they force me to, I guess I will.

What do you do for a living?
I clean carpets. I work for Oxy Magic of Minnesota.

What have you seen in that business lately?
A downturn in the number of people that are” wanting” to get their stuff done. It’s not the people that usually do it regularly. It’s the people that need to get that sh*t done. So, the jobs are getting fewer and they are getting worse.

A lot of people are talking about the recession being over. What do you have to say to that?
(It took him a minute to stop laughing at this question.)

Until I start getting my 15 to 18 jobs a week again I just don’t think this economy is going to be right. I’ve gone from 18 jobs a week to 6 jobs a week.

How do people in your situation get caught up right now?
If I knew that then I wouldn’t have any problems, if I could figure that out. I might have to find a second job. That would not be easy since I don’t have a set schedule. Today I got done at 1:00. Last week I had a night where I didn’t get done until 9:30.

Have you looked at a jobs section lately?
Yes. There’s a lot of jobs in there (while laughing).

What are you seeing?
There’s stuff there. But the stuff there is not worth my time or I’m not eligible for it.

Do you feel like a victim?
No. I brought this upon myself. I have no one to blame but me. But some of it may be the economy that I can’t make the kind of money that I would make normally. I’ve always taken responsibility for my actions.

How do you feel when other people act like victims and expect the government to bail them out?
If you are going to play the victim card and you have resources to deal with things on your own but you choose not to use them then you are a douche bag. That is all I can think of. If I was to sit here and say, “woe is me. It’s all somebody else’s fault.” I would then say go hang yourself. If you aren’t going to take responsibility for your own actions then go jump off a f**king cliff.

If you screw up and you’re too p***y to admit it and you just blame other people for it then screw yourself. Admit that you’ve done some of this to yourself.

Is there anything you would like to add?
Yeah, if my buddy would get off his ass and buy a bar that we can run, then I could get out of this problem.

Jason wanted to add that anybody looking for a hard worker should give him a call. I can vouch that he is a hard working guy. This is just one of the many regular guys that has slipped through the cracks as we bailout banks, rework mortgages and talk of “green shoots” and recessions that are over. Without good paying jobs more and more holes are going to get deeper and deeper.




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110 Comments »

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-07-30 08:54:49

This tale reminds me of the radio ad I hear every time I work out at the local YMCA. It is from a firm which advertises its household financial restructuring services. The tag line is: “The banks got their bailouts; isn’t it about time you get one, too?”

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-07-30 09:44:13

When I hear such ads at my gym, I talk back to them. This never fails to get the attention of my fellow gym-goers.

 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-30 08:56:32

Doesn’t it always get back to the need for livable wage jobs . Doesn’t it always get back to the need for affordable housing ?

Comment by AppleEye
2009-07-30 09:13:28

i.e., he’s a victim?

Comment by Big V
2009-07-30 17:07:55

No, he’s middle class. He needs a job.

Comment by KenWPA
2009-07-30 17:14:07

Well said, seems many on this board often feel that anybody that makes a mistake or falls on hard times without 6 years salary in savings deserves to suffer.

NYCityBoy, you did a very good job of describing what many average Joes are going through right now.

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Comment by DinOR
2009-07-30 09:58:21

Housing Wizard,

Or rather, it ’should’. ( But how long have we been banging on ‘that’ drum? )

Our Midwest posters likely identify w/ Jason. “I” like the guy, and I haven’t even met him! But I see some scary fundamentals here? On one hand, we have a DUI, and on the other, buying a bar is the answer to his problems?

Drinking and other perversions are things we should put off in life as long ( or permanently ) as we can! NOT something we want to ‘embrace’ that young in life. On a side note, my sister says she doubts my 48 y.o brother will make it thru the summer. Looks like kidney and liver failure. Not good.

Not to be too stereotypical, but I know a LOT of MW’s like this. Hard working, but also hard partying. I suppose the trick is to build as much of a reputation as a hard worker so it will carry you through when ( or if ) your partying becomes what you’re more known for? Also notice how we always blame ourselves. Good in moderation but devastating when we don’t attain the level of success we think we’ve earned.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-07-30 10:40:59

Opening a bar (or restaurant) is the daydream of many 9 to 5ers and sometimes the only perceived option of a newly income-less self-employed contractor etc. (ie no unemployment checks) The fact that everyone thinks it’s a ‘fun’ job to own such a biz, and everyone thinks their family recipes or whatever will ensure their success, ignores the fact that it’s a high stress job with very slim chances of success. And it involves a lot more than pulling a brew for your buds.

It’s the ’slightly more realistic than winning the lottery daydream.’

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-07-30 10:57:54

I’ve known more than a few people in the bar and restaurant biz. They all say that success boils down to two four-letter words: h-a-r-d w-o-r-k.

Oh, you also have to be very hip to the business side of your bar and/or restaurant. So, prior business experience is a plus.

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Comment by Muggy
2009-07-30 12:51:53

My friend just bought a building in Rochester and intends to open a bar/restaurant there. I hope he makes it. For those of you that know the area, it’s the Atomic Eggplant bldg. on Marshall St.

I wouldn’t get involved with that ‘hood, but like I said, I hope he makes it.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-07-30 13:37:19

He should definitely name it the Atomic Eggplant.

 
Comment by polly
2009-07-30 14:05:24

But, Slim. It doesn’t look that way on Diners, Drive-ins and Dives. It is just family receipes and hundreds of loyal home town people who eat at your place four times a week and pay you lots of money.

 
 
Comment by Rancher
2009-07-30 18:24:57

I can’t tell you how many people have come up to me over the years saying “It must be nice owning your own business. You can take off when you want and play golf…Gee…it must be really nice”.

What the don’t and never will realize is that I’m
the one the opened the door in the morning and locked up at night, that they got paid before me, that they left the job and went home while
I took the job with me, and that it was my money that started the thing and that my life was on the line. I have never had a poor man
give me a job, not that I needed one.

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Comment by ann
2009-07-30 20:22:18

I hear that…hubby and I run our own business and I never have seen a 9 to 5 more like up at 5:30 in the morning working till the kids get up its summer, which means around 10 am…then play mom while hubby works and then back to work around 8 pm till 12-1 am…not including the time sneaked in on the weekends when they go to the movies or out with friends…

yes having our own business has given up the opportunity to be around our kids and flex for vacations..but it is stressful and hardwork..the only good thing is that we chose professions that are so called “recession” proof

 
 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-30 10:55:33

DinOR …I did notice the DUI and all that . If it isn’t a DUI ,its over
consumption of something . The point is that Joe is willing to accept the fact that he is responsible for some of his fate ,but he still needs a job ,like all the other people that will sink into a greater hole
without a pathway for redemption …..” Idle hands are the devils workshop .”

A lot of problems in our Society are directly related to the behavior pattern of the American people ,and that is a whole big discussion ,but jobs are necessary ,simply to survive and thrive . Sounds like Joe wants to work ,and you can’t say that for a certain % of the Entitlement Society ,and that includes the elite rich that just like to fleece the public .

Comment by DinOR
2009-07-30 12:07:34

Housing Wizard,

I appreciate your taking it in the spirit in which it was intended. Didn’t want to come off like I was preaching from a “soapbox” and someone had to say it?

What I ‘do’ believe is that it’s often the best path ( yes even today, and perhaps ‘especially’ -today- ) that we 1. Find something, 2. Fall in love with it, and, 3. Do it better than anyone else!

Maybe being a rest. owner ‘will’ become his bag? Who knows, I hope so. But all too often ( as the tide pulled out ) we found the remnants left behind by people that really weren’t passionate about their work and were only involved to the degree necessary to “get paid”.

Kind of like all the builders that were so adamant about “building communities” ( but left half-built subdivisions and are nowhere to be found? )

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Comment by InMontana
2009-07-30 12:35:38

I made a living playing in bars that were constantly changing “ownership” from one FB to another. Thank God! …but they got to be crazy. Restaurant FB’s too! The only ones who made it worked hard at it for many years, paid as they went, and owned outright. Often they were friggin dumps but with a local steady clientele. Maybe they leave it to a kid who wants to take over, great. But those days are mostly gone even here.

But if you buy the sucker and have that mortgage or lease payment, fuggettaboutit.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-07-30 12:54:36

InMontana,

Since you’ve figured out where I’m at anyway… we have a great place called the Mill Street Inn. Father/Son deal and they take the time to get to know people.

75 cent drafts ( place is packed ) Others here in town traded on their trendiness, and that’s the funny thing about ‘trendiness’, it comes and goes? Being recognized and addressed w/ ’some’ measure of respect goes a long ways. Sadly, they’re not really set up for a band or we’d play there every Sat. nite.

 
Comment by InMontana
2009-07-30 13:52:32

Yeah if the owners can do all that without becoming alkie-hollics, they can make it work. I’ve seen many an old boy sell out because gladhanding the folks was killing him.

 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-07-30 13:56:18

The bar thing is kind of a running joke between Jason and I. That is not something I’m dying to do. I had a former co-worker that owned a bar. She had to get rid of it because it was in a small town and she said it was just too depressing to see the dark side of so many people’s lives. I can believe that.

 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-30 15:47:16

DinOR …I actually thought the bar thing was a joke because
it’s absurd that Jason (I called him Joe before ) is even thinking of that . Bars have a high failure rate and this guy doesn’t have the bread to start a business like that . My point is that this guy just needs a job that pays his bills and gets him on his feet again . If Jasen has a drinking problem ,than that’s another matter that goes to the heart of another set of problems
many American people have that might effect their job performance .

 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-07-31 09:20:47

I notice the ones here in Norfolk tend to be owned by people with money to start with, and they own lots of them each. The small time people come and go, but the higher dollar places stay around.

 
 
 
Comment by bluprint
2009-07-30 14:34:54

To be fair, imo, a DUI (which I have never had, “knock on wood”) doesn’t tell me much. It’s too easy to get one and doesn’t necessarily indicate “unsafe to drive” or any such thing. So maybe he’s a drunk or maybe not but a DUI doesn’t indicate to me an alcohol problem in general.

Comment by Doug in Boone, NC
2009-07-30 14:59:56

Cops (and especially the HP) have become nothing but revenue collectors for the government. I was on the jury hearing a DUI (formerly DWI–Driving With an Income) case. Guy (he was a college student — one of the cops’ favorites around here) who blew a .08 after he was pulled for a burned-out tail light (I got pulled one time for not having my seatbelt fastened properly around my shoulder — ended up costing me $325). Anyway, my way of thinking was that he could have blown a .07999, given that I know, with my electronics training, there EVERY electronic instrument, no matter how accurate they are claimed to be, has a margin of error. I ended up hanging the jury by refusing to change my not guilty to guilty. Finally, when Friday rolled around, the jury, wanting to go home, said to hell with it and the guy ended up getting off. (This was about eight years ago, but one of the people on the jury who probably thought the guy should be given the death sentence, still won’t speak to me when she sees me.)

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Comment by Big V
2009-07-30 16:34:02

Ah, who cares about her? Just down a whiskey tonic then blow in her face whenever she comes around.

 
Comment by james
2009-07-30 19:23:30

That 0.08 percent… man that is way too low.

Its just another way of generating revenue by turning just about everybody into criminals.

Same with pot/estacy/cocaine. Think meth is just too darn dangerous (but it sure makes the girls friskey).

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-07-31 13:42:19

LOL Big V.

 
 
 
 
Comment by pismoclam
2009-07-30 16:30:25

Affordable housing is how we got into this mess in the first place!! The Franks, Dodd and company banged on the banks and made them make low interest affordable loans to unqualified buyers. Here we go again !

Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-07-31 10:33:45

Did the banks balk? The banks seemed pretty eager to give loans to everyone and pass off the mortgage to investors.

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-07-31 09:12:08

Yes, it backs to that, as in The Powers That Be are doing whatever they can to make it harder to obtain a living wage or affordability housing. Once those 2 things are impossible, all will serve the banks - Mission Accomplished!

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-07-31 13:43:36

Hail BANKS, Hail BANKS, Hail BANKS

 
 
 
Comment by Joe Lawyer
2009-07-30 09:04:03

In my practice I am seeing first hand the effects of the economy. The winding down of the bubble era is grinding away tons of businesses and individuals. Crime is up, but it is the depression related stuff like drunks and wife beating. Divorce is up as one partner starts to see the other as the anchor that is restraining their *need* to possess shiny things. Bankruptcy and credit issues are simply unmanageable as the debtors don’t want to pay legal fees and don’t want bankruptcy, because Dave Ramsey says suckers keep feeding their alligators as a moral obligation.

Fact is, 75% of the population is lost in a delusional world of over consumption and the arrogance of ownership, however leveraged it may be.

Those people are getting angry as they realize that the easy days are not coming back.

Comment by DinOR
2009-07-30 10:00:58

Joe,

Good points all, but that doesn’t sound like the Dave Ramsey “I” know? Has he changed his tune that dramatically?

Comment by Joe Lawyer
2009-07-30 14:28:53

He always tells people to pay and avoid bankruptcy, when that option is better than he makes it appear.

Comment by ATE-UP
2009-07-30 14:36:14

Hey Joe, I practice in Granite City, Illinois. I see the same thing. Also, all local attorneys see the same thing too. Good post.

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Comment by Amy P
2009-07-30 17:50:41

Actually, no. I listen to Dave Ramsey a lot, and he tells people to do their best to settle with their creditors rather than declare bankruptcy. He says to only declare bankruptcy if creditors are unreasonable (i.e. creditors are suing and the baby’s crib is about to be taken away). He does frequently discourage people from declaring bankruptcy on $10,000 worth of debt, and he tells people who are elderly on Social Security or who are on disability that they are judgment-proof and safe from having their small income taken away.

I’ve seen a lot of unfair criticism of Dave Ramsey on this forum (for instance the $2 check thing–Ramsey encourages both using cash from an envelope system or a debit card). He’s generally a force for good. I do agree that he is far too optimistic about housing. I cringe every time I hear him tell some home seller to wait for prices to come back up, but fortunately he only tells that to people who are financially secure. He thinks now is a good time to buy a house, but his parameters for readiness to buy (debt-free, 3-6 month emergency fund, 15-year fixed loan, payment no more than a certain percentage of income, substantial downpayment, etc.) are so strict that if you followed them all, you’d really have a hard time getting into trouble.

 
Comment by Joe
2009-07-30 19:42:27

Dave Ramsey has a handful of good ideas, but for the most part is a paranoid kook. Most of his ideas are completely impractical and his system of money management is for simpletons.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Bad Andy
2009-07-30 11:12:12

I was one of those in that delusional world. I can’t say that I’m angry about those days not coming back. In fact, I kind of like the new way of life. Cash for everything. If there’s no cash, I don’t need it. I’m lucky to work for myself and business isn’t horrible (although not good). Those with no work at all I really feel for…especially if they’re still trying to live the fantasy.

Comment by DinOR
2009-07-30 12:13:36

Bad Andy,

“I” never felt that way, not from what you shared in your posts? *mikey had a beautiful post ( hell, it was a RANT! ) from the Open Thread just previous that describes the mindset to the “t”.

Comment by Bad Andy
2009-07-30 12:28:19

I thought I had it all figured out. Put 20% down on a house, get a fair interest rate, use cheap credit to leverage. Fact is I didn’t have anything figured out. I was conservative, but not conservative enough. I lived within my means but when that means lowered bad things started to happen. Therefore I think I was in my own version of fantasy land.

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Comment by DinOR
2009-07-30 12:57:20

Bad Andy,

You’ve got a steady job and a nice family. Keep your house and just make it back somewhere else!

Hey, I was bearish all -throughout- this damned thing ( apparently, just not bearish ‘enough’ ) We’ll pull through.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-07-30 09:04:36

Excellent post NYCboy:

Here is my tip, let the collection agencies sue you. and force them to show up for a court date, its almost automatic the judge will dismiss it, if you can prove you really are broke and cant even afford $30 a month…

It aggravating to sit in court for 3 hours till you get your 5 minutes with a judge or his assistant…. but you wont have a BK on your record just a lot of dismissed cases.

Heck i did that once, right in front of the judge, i offered a solution: I would work for the collection law firm and agree to pay 100% of what i owed take it out of my paycheck each week… or else you get nothing. They were shocked and the judge dismissed it. The law firm was 3 miles away…and they turned down the offer for full payment.

Comment by robiscrazy
2009-07-30 10:15:34

How recently was this?

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-07-30 11:03:34

Last year it was a Compusa credit card…..

 
 
Comment by peter a
2009-07-30 11:41:27

CC company served me with a judgment. I keep telling them haven’t worked since nov 2007 (was in construction in the inland empire). I am in RN school now. Told them I will pay when I get working. I Have one more year in school. Going to give them 2600 presidential coins. I hope someone in the company has fun counting and transporting them.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-07-30 15:32:44

Well you didn’t show up in court….judges rarely vacate a judgment for failure to appear.

Next time just go….it probably would have been dismissed and you would have saved 2600 coins
————————
CC company served me with a judgment.

 
 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-07-30 09:41:24

Sounds like Jason is a likable fellow and a hard worker….IMO, he’s got it 90% whipped…Just got to get through the valley to be able to get to the summit…Some how, Some way, he needs to be in business for himself…Even if its cleaning carpets…

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-07-30 20:10:57

IMO, he’s got it 90% whipped…

+1 ;-)

scdave, what percentage of things is assigned to:
“Just showing up…ready…”

 
 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-07-30 09:42:26

How would bankruptcy work for someone like this? I assume he’s making below the median salary for his area. Doesn’t this allow him to file for a complete repudiation of his debt? If so, he should swallow his pride and do it. It’s probably as close to a bailout as he’s going to get, and it’s exactly what the big boyz would do.

As far as the ding to his credit record, he won’t be alone in this regard in the coming years. And if he has to wait a while to get a home loan or an unsecured credit card, so much the better. That’s how you learn to live without debt.

Sounds like a good guy, though. Good luck to him.

Comment by Bad Andy
2009-07-30 11:14:59

Someone who’s already this far gone in the credit world shouldn’t be worried about the ramifications of a BK. Credit’s already shot. Time to wipe the slate clean and start over. It’s hard to get credit for 3 to 5 years, but what do you need it for?

Comment by Kim
2009-07-30 12:13:07

“It’s hard to get credit for 3 to 5 years, but what do you need it for?”

Actually, banks trip over themselves to give the newly bankrupt more credit, the reason being that such people can’t declare bankruptcy again for several years.

Comment by Bad Andy
2009-07-30 12:30:02

Some specialty banks yes. You REALLY don’t want the terms they’ll offer that credit on.

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Comment by kirisdad
2009-07-30 13:19:24

Who’s going to pay for all these bankruptcies, where all debt is wiped clean? If you have a job and can afford to pay cash are you going to allow banks to put that debt onto you ( thru CC fees, int. increases and surcharges)? I don’t think so. So how do they make up for the losses, where it doesn’t drag the economy along the bottom for decades? Couple that w/ excused mortgage debt and it just gets scarier.

Comment by Bad Andy
2009-07-30 13:23:25

Kirisdad I think I would have agreed with you at a point in time. That point was before credit card companies gave out $10,000 limits just because. They knew what they were doing and now it’s time for them to reap what’s been sown just like the mortgage companies. No one wants to go through the bankruptcy process, but it’s an important option for people in today’s economic environment.

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Comment by kirisdad
2009-07-30 17:51:55

Andy, I wasn’t feeling bad for banks or CC co’s. It’s the credit worthy taxpayers (like you and me) that eventually will be paying for all this. At best, it will be much higher interest rates, at a time when the economy can least afford it, that will cover the losses.

 
Comment by Big V
2009-07-30 20:53:21

Kirisdad:

Yup. I think they call it “unwinding”.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-07-31 13:48:06

Kirisdad:

Those fees are here right now.

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-07-30 13:53:14

I predict that credit cards won’t be as widespread. Matter of fact, until the 1980s, they were pretty rare. You really had to have some money in order to qualify for one.

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Comment by bluprint
2009-07-30 15:05:51

Banks lost money when they MADE bad loans. Everything after that is just a matter of recognition…

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Comment by CA renter
2009-07-31 04:08:06

Absolutely correct! Just like the mortgages…let the lenders fail (and don’t bail them out with taxpayers’ money).

 
 
Comment by Big V
2009-07-30 17:13:09

Kirisdad:

It’s not your choice whether or not to allow these people to file bankruptcy. The laws are already written, so as long as they qualify, then they will do it.

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Comment by kirisdad
2009-07-30 18:09:39

Those laws changed once, they can change again. Maybe I’m biased, a friend of my BIL has recently gone bankrupt. He’s 49 yo, single, employed by the same co for 19 yrs, has owned a home for 25 years ( his residence) oh, and a failed FL condo flipper. I shouldn’t say complete failure, he made quite a bit of money flipping pre-contruction houses and condos between 2002-2005. He just got stuck with the last one (bought 2006). Recently, while at a Yankee game w/BIL, sitting up top in the cheap seats, flipper bankrupt friend was down below in the $110 seats.

 
Comment by kirisdad
2009-07-30 18:24:11

V, what about all the people with credit balances that just had their int rates raised to compensate the banks pay for these failed bankrupt flippers? In this case, he still has car, still owns his house, still has his job and still goes to Yankee games in style.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by MightyMike
2009-07-30 11:11:11

I have a question. You wrote that he lost his job and then his relationship with his girlfriend ended. Did the first event cause the second? Did the girlfirend suddenly lose interet in Jason when he became unemployed?

Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-07-30 11:21:23

I don’t remember the exact chronology. The two events were very close to each other and in tandem were definitely very destructive. I know he was making less than half of his old income. Then came the DWI, which he knew was really dumb, and it was just a crusher. That was a lot to have piled on. He lost his new job when they found out about the DWI.

He really dove into the latest job. That’s the way he is. You can tell he takes great pride in what he does. But the legs have been knocked out under that with the economy getting creamed. I think there a lot of Jasons out there. The key question is, “how do these guys recover?”

Comment by Bad Andy
2009-07-30 11:51:40

There are a lot of people who could help a guy like this out. As long as he dives right into things, there are several industries that would love to bring him in. Insurance is one. Problem is that insurance is a business that you either love or hate. There is no middle ground at all.

Comment by Muggy
2009-07-30 12:56:59

“There are a lot of people who could help a guy like this out.”

I’m not as optimistic as you. Character is what you do when nobody is looking. DUI is serious. Why would you hire a hard worker with a DUI when you can hire plenty of hard workers without one?

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Comment by DinOR
2009-07-30 13:01:33

Muggy,

Normally I’d agree, and I like your observation about “when nobody is looking” as that’s really the defining moment, isn’t it?

But, sadly, drunks ( and I’m not calling him that ) make the best workers! I know it sounds twisted but they really are. There’s a lot of ‘prissy’ mf’s out there that wouldn’t think of getting one, but many times they don’t want to get their hands dirty either?

It’s a gamble. Where are you hiring them in that “curve”?

 
Comment by Bad Andy
2009-07-30 13:18:08

I’m not going to hire someone because they have a DUI, but I’m certainly not going to hold it against them. We’re all guilty of a lapse in judgement at one point or another in our lives. DUI is serious yes, but serious enough to destroy someone’s job prospects forever? I think not.

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-07-30 13:21:20

“Where are you hiring them in that “curve”?”

Well, I have many different answers for you. In the education field, I am not yet in a position of deciding who gets hired, but I’m almost there. That is a case-by-case situation. Typically one DUI in the early 20’s is forgiven. Drug arrests for a small amount of weed only…

In the music business, I’ve seen it all, but that is also an industry that has been taken over by the banksters. It’s not so cool anymore to be drunk during lunch. I never really worked with tweakers in NYC, but most of the musicians around me enjoyed drinking.

I’d have to know the person and the circumstances to make a decision. I have some of my own friends, that I LOVE, that I would not let babysit my son.

Coincidentally, I know a good teacher that was cut loose for DWI this year.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-07-30 14:10:18

Muggy,

Not sure how to define it exactly myself? Many people that party ( and party -hard- ) are extremely motivated by that. To them, the harder they ‘work’ the harder they can ‘party’.

All young and full of “p!ss and vinegar!” They’ll do -anything- to get ahead. Overtime, weekends etc. But at ’some’ point ( in that ‘curve’ ) things start to slip. They become agitated and combative easily. Some aspects of a job are overkill to the max ( while other major details are glossed over or left out completely )

Then.., they’re not being treated fairly. You can t-r-y re-hab but what you’ll get back is an introspective lamb, not the lion you hired. I know this comes from a “brokerage industry” perspective, but I don’t imagine it’s different at other PC’s etc.

 
 
 
Comment by ATE-UP
2009-07-30 16:10:12

NYCityBoy: Thank you for a great article. Well put together. Also, I think your friend Jason is a good guy. One DUI doesn’t make you an Axe Murderer. He seems to have both a strong work ethic, and a sense of responsibility. He passes my muster, for what that is worth.

Tell him I wish the best for him.

ATE-UP

Comment by Big V
2009-07-30 17:24:36

He probably has more than one, otherwise he would have restricted driving privileges (to and from work/church/rehab only).

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Comment by Lenderoflastresort
2009-07-31 15:28:02

How did his employer find out about the DWI? Did he mention it to co-workers?

 
 
 
Comment by potential buyer
2009-07-30 11:53:43

I don’t know what jobs (at his level, I’m assuming?) would fire you for getting a DWI, since its still only a misdemeanor for the first offense, I do believe. Plus, can’t you get a restricted license for work or is that a state thingy?

But kudos to him for taking responsibility for his actions. He sounds like a survivor and an all round good guy! I wish him well.

Comment by potential buyer
2009-07-30 11:59:26

Qualifier — companies will fire you if you lie about it and they find out though. Is that what happened?

 
Comment by bink
2009-07-30 13:27:22

Plenty of jobs will fire you for a DUI. Trucking, delivery, conductor, security, certain mechanics, anything that requires you to drive a company car to a site, etc. If your job requires a clearance and you’d also be at serious risk.

Comment by potential buyer
2009-07-30 14:48:04

Right, but most would not. Most application forms says “Have you ever had a felony?” — company’s for the most part do not care about a DUI, which is a misdemeanor.

 
 
 
Comment by Anon In DC
2009-07-30 12:01:58

NYCityBoy,

Hi.Not to sound too judgemental. But kinda of hard to feel any sympathy for Jason. If you know you have a drinking problem than you try to work it out or around it. I say he has a drinking problem because of the DWI. Maybe the drinking lead to his getting to boot after the bank buyout. Also how does one get in debt. If my job ended I would go work at McDonalds just to have something coming in. Sounds like after the bank job ended he self medicated with drink instead of getting out there and working. OR moving to where there is is work. Jason’s behavior is the just the behavior all of us here denounce. People who don’t plan for the the raining day.
P.S. With the DWI he’s dam lucky he did kill himself or worst someone else.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-07-30 12:23:21

One of the best subcontract Web programmers I’ve ever hired has a DWI on her record. She did jail time for it too.

That was then. This is now. She’s been sober for about 20 years.

Comment by potential buyer
2009-07-30 12:56:42

Did she hit someone to get the jail time? I haven’t heard of anyone getting jail time behind the first offense.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-07-30 13:18:06

I haven’t asked whether she hit someone or not.

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Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-07-30 12:41:37

Getting a DWI doesn’t automatically signify a drinking problem. A smaller person can be over the limit after drinking two drinks. I bet many here have driven at some point in their lives at that level. I’m not saying it’s no big deal, and I agree that getting in a wreck in which anyone dies will land you in serious trouble; but it can happen without the perpetator being an alcoholic, etc. Just bad judgement and some bad luck.

Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-07-30 12:48:32

Exactly. Try getting through a bad Minnesota winter without drinking.

Comment by Muggy
2009-07-30 12:58:58

He didn’t have to drive. You’re putting the two together like it was some unfortunate alignment of the cosmos.

Sorry.

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Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-07-30 13:06:09

No. He didn’t have to drive. You are right.

If you had a business in Minnesota that didn’t hire guys with DWIs I don’t know who you would hire. In the neighborhood that I grew up in we had a cluster of 5 houses that had a total of 14 boys in them. I think there might be 3 or us that don’t have a DWI on our record. I’m not condoning it. That is just the reality.

Hell, did you ever see how many of the Vikings players have DWIs? They had an epidemic there for a while.

 
Comment by SDGreg
2009-07-31 05:23:49

One of the side effects of development patterns, public transportation, and drinking laws (time of “last call”) in this country is that in many parts of this country it’s very difficult to go out for a drink at a place that can be reached using public transportation (or during hours that public transportation operates) or is within a reasonable cab ride.

 
 
 
 
Comment by SaladSD
2009-07-30 13:43:36

Reading between the lines, it might be helpful if Jason thought about joining AA. Some of the best, hardworking people I know have drinking problems and AA has saved their lives. Plus, it’s basically free therapy. I’m not in AA, but know several people who are, and if you can find the right group where there’s not a lot of hardcore “by the book” fanatics, but just very supportive people, it seems like Jason could do well by them. Plus many “friends of Bill” are captains of industry and may be in a position to offer him a job even with the DUI. Just a thought….

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-07-30 13:48:02

My father’s father was a “friend of Bill.” Literally. They both worked on Wall Street, and Bill W. helped my grandfather get sober.

Alas, Bill W. was much more successful at getting sober and staying there than Grandpa was. Grandpa relapsed more than once. But, according to my father, Grandpa died sober.

Comment by SaladSD
2009-07-31 00:12:15

That’s pretty cool. I’ve been reading bits & pieces about the history of AA, lots of fascinating twist and turns and a snapshot of the social/political turmoil of the 1930s. As I recall, Rockefeller met Bill and the gang in the late 30s/early 40s, he offered to provide funding and they turned him down, even though they were flat broke. Somehow they understood that any type of institutional organization would destroy the very thing that made AA work. One of the founders spent time with Carl Jung in Switzerland and some of the tenants of AA were influenced by a Christian movement known as the Oxford Group, which emphasized self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others. The bizarre thing is that it was the religious community, who were asked to review the first version of the Big Book, who asked that references to God be eliminated since they didn’t want the book to compete with their teachings. What we know of AA today took decades to evolve.

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Comment by DinOR
2009-07-30 14:44:21

SaladSD,

Good point! I have a good friend that always calls me on the anniversary of his sobriety and we have a lot of laughs about that!

Like me, he’s a Chicagoan living in OR. I once asked him how ( after only living a -fraction- of the time ) he knew so many well-connected and successful people!?

He’s like.., DUDE ( I’m in AA! )

I also think alpha-sloth has a good point. My father drank and rove ALL his life! Never so much as a parking ticket. So getting a “deuce” isn’t necessarily concrete proof of a drinking problem. Dad would say ( F@cking amateurs! )

 
 
Comment by Big V
2009-07-30 18:24:34

Um, anon, you are making HUGE assumptions here. Anyone with a DWI must be an alcoholic, and all their problems in life must be caused by their alcoholism? I don’t think so. You should go out one day and drink a beer and then test your BAC with a breathalizer like an hour later. You’d turn up legally drunk because the legal limit is a joke. It’s way too low. I’ve never gotten a DWI myself, but there have been plenty of opportunities for it to happen. Just one margarita with your ensalada de los mariscos, and you’re ripe for the picking.

Comment by In Montana
2009-07-30 19:19:45

testify, Big V!

 
 
Comment by jane
2009-07-30 22:07:38

Anon, that’s harsh. You need to understand that “alcoholism” is a major revenue generator for states, and there are many ways to get sucked into that maw. For example - you can get a DUI for napping in your car in a rest area or a diner parking lot, regardless of whether or not you are actually “DUI’d”.

In my biz, I did workouts, biz plans and recapitalizations for privately held, badly run small firms. Required meetings in smoky back rooms and driving all over Dog’s creation what with client visits, pitches to funding entities, courts of various stripes and jurisdictions. A smoky back room meeting might have a beer associated with it, and a studiously unhurried conversation about pros, cons and alternative scenarios. No more than one beer, numbers and cash flows and mitigation plans do not make for lightweight banter. Then several hours back to the old manse.

On one such trip, I was simply TIRED after a day of driving, meeting and driving some more. I should say it was 140 miles one way to the client site. I pulled over into Ol’ Smoky’s Diner, couple of towns away from home, simply could not drive another mile, and took a nap. The police officer asked me if I had had anything to drink that night, and I replied truthfully. No further questions ensued. No breathalyzer, no field sobriety test - nothing. Just an arrest. This was perfectly according to procedure. If you are in a stopped car and napping and have the keys in your posession, a simple admission that you have had “something” to drink that evening - or afternoon - or morning is sufficient grounds for a DUI arrest. No questions asked.

Of course the case was thrown out. But not before the state machinery was triggered. Prior to the case coming up in court, I remember $300 in fees, and $600 for a mandatory “alcohol awareness” class triggered by the fact of the arrest. Naturally, I did not get a refund for the money or the time wasted in the class.

This was in the 90s. In this particular New England state, highly taxed, a population trapped without jobs and without the means to unload and get out, “alcoholism” has grown to be a $2 Billion per year industry. From what I understand, additional layers of leeches have gotten in on the bandwagon since the 90s. I have no doubt that the police officers are well versed in the drill of revenue augmentation. It’s a cinch - who would ever be in favor of “going easy on drunks”?

Oh - DC - another thing you should know. EVERYBODY in the world is an alcoholic, in the view of the alcoholism industrial complex. Either you ‘fess up to being an alcoholic (in the moonie-speak, this is known as “taking responsibility”). Or you look quizzically at the Inquisitor drilling you with the Truth, and tell him or her what you think of the accusation. In the latter case, you are an alcoholic “in denial”. So, DC, don’t be so smug - you, too, are an alcoholic.

Comment by robiscrazy
2009-07-31 09:45:24

“I have no doubt that the police officers are well versed in the drill of revenue augmentation. It’s a cinch - who would ever be in favor of “going easy on drunks”?

It’s disturbing to hear that the authorities can take money from you, mandate classes, etc. even before you are convicted of anything. Sounds as if you are guilty until proven innocent when it comes to being charged with DWI. As you pointed out, an easy group to pick on.

 
Comment by SaladSD
2009-08-01 13:37:07

I think you are overreaching with the “everybody is an alcholic” observation. Plus, having just taken traffic school, statistically speaking we only get a ticket for every 600 infractions, so unless you are really stupid or really unlucky, a DUI is probably not the first time someone has driven drunk. I knew plenty of people in my 20s who must have been off the charts, alchohol wise, and managed to squeek through years of drunk driving before getting nabbed. And eventually they went into recovery. That’s not to say that there’s those occasions when you really are unlucky, and had that one extra drink and a cop parked on the corner. And yes, I enjoy a glass of wine and a cocktail and I’m not an alchoholic. Its really not hard to tell the difference.

 
 
 
Comment by Real Estate Refugee
2009-07-30 12:26:24

Tell Joe to read this article, it might help point him in the right direction.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18155301/

Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-07-30 12:59:42

The sad part is that they are willing to lower his amounts now, even without a 3rd party being involved. I was surprised by that.

 
 
Comment by Chip
2009-07-30 14:13:36

NYCBoy - very nice post, an interesting anecdote that is well-written. Thanks.

Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-07-30 17:19:10

Oh by the way DinOR . Sorry about your brother . I had a brother that created a early death for himself by his habits ,such as drinking and
drugs (I don’t know if this kind of life style has anything to do with your brothers medical problems ).My brother was highly educated and it seemed like such a waste that he went that route in life . My brother could never get his act together and become functional in a practical world ,in spite of being very intelligent . I don’t exactly know what went wrong ,but I do know he was spoiled a little to much by my parents out of the five kids, being the first born .
Anyway ,I am sorry you have a family member
that has kidney and liver problems because of lifestyle ,or any other reason why this might be taking place .
It’s hard to witness the demise of a family member . I had a sister that died in a fire ,that death was really hard to take .
Anyway ,I feel you pain in a number of ways .

Comment by Silverback1011
2009-07-30 18:49:44

I’m so sorry for DinOr and Housing Wizard and all others here who have lost loved ones recently, whether they’re named or just thought of in my heart.

 
 
 
Comment by legal eagle
2009-07-30 16:08:31

File BK. Wipe the debts clean. Get a fresh start. The moral inclination against BK is only a white-middle class cultural attitude that no one else subscribes to. Like the old saying goes, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. File BK and move on. This cultural bias against bk is getting to be so annoying.

*disclaimer: I’m an extremely busy bk attorney. Those who think they can repay their way out of charged-off credit debt are deluding themselves.

Comment by GH
2009-07-30 18:25:34

The main reason I would consider bankruptcy is if I had large judgments against me. These will follow you most or all of your life until repaid and can be renewed indefinitely. As such a judgment unpaid can essentially ruin your credit a lot longer than a bankruptcy filing can.

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-07-31 04:20:23

Agree with the BK option. There is no reason for Jason to worry any further about his credit…it’s probably shot. Best to clear everything away and start anew.

Thanks for the guest post, NYCityBoy. You’re right about the “regular Joe” having very few options, and looking at a very bleak situation, currently. I wish Jason the very best of luck and good fortune. Thank you for sharing this story.

 
 
Comment by Lip
2009-07-30 16:16:19

NYCB,

Maybe he could use this website for some ideas.

Debt Snowball - The Truth About How to Get Out of Debt
http://www.daveramsey.com/the_truth_about/debt_snowball_4055.html.cfm

Lip

 
Comment by jane
2009-07-30 21:09:17

NYCBoy, I’m late to the party, as usual - but just wanted to add my thanks and admiration for the compassion reflected in your writing. You also have a killer sense of humor (from prior postings). At the risk of sounding arrogant and drawing flames of wrath, IMHO you would be very good in a helping profession. It is a long haul to get the “qualifications”, and a sh*t economy to boot. We are all getting older anyway. Might as well do something to mark the time. Please forgive me if I sound preachy, it is not intentional, it’s just that your level headed compassion is remarkable by virtue of its rarity and would be a gift to society.

Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-07-31 04:57:35

Thank you.

 
 
Comment by SDGreg
2009-07-31 05:31:31

NYCityBoy,

Thanks for this excellent post and also to your friend for allowing his story to be told. For too many people, it’s a struggle to stay even if everything goes perfectly with little chance for recovery if anything goes wrong.

For many, the story of the past decade has been going ever more deeply into debt just to stay even. For most for the last decade, the economy has been a sham, nothing but a mirage built on a mountain of debt. Until we rebuild a real economy with sustainable jobs that pay decent wages, this won’t change.

 
Comment by Naninnc
2009-07-31 07:03:56

Great blog, Mr NYC Boy!!

I am in the situation of debt brought on by my own inattention and stupidity and by a lack of really understanding money. I am not a kid (47) but I finally received several wake up calls in 2007. I am using a company called In Charge that has been really great! They charge me $10.00 a month and they draft the payment from my checking acct and disburse to my creditors each month. I am 2 years in now and am really starting to see a difference. I have about 26 more months to go and am trying to increase the amount they take so we can put the snowball effect into play.

I am grateful to the Good Lord for helping me and that I am still employed. It has not been easy but so worthwhile!

I hope your friend will be ok, and that everyone fighting financial battles will be able to see daylight soon.

best regards!

 
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