Ignoring Reality Is What Got Us Here In The First Place
It’s Friday desk clearing time for this blogger. “Sales of single-family houses rose 6.6 percent in July, compared with the same month a year ago, according to a report from the Greater Hartford Association of Realtors, which covers 57 towns stretching from north central Connecticut to Middletown. The increase is modest compared with the double-digit increases of four years ago, but a sign, experts said, that the worst might be over for the state’s housing recession. ‘It was like a snowball rolling down a hill and we’d stopped it from rolling. It will be a little while before we push it back up,’ said Curt Clemens Sr., owner of Century 21 Clemens & Sons in Hartford.”
“For home buyers John and Gina Gallivan, this spring was the right time to buy a raised ranch in Wethersfield, where the couple both teach at the high school. They closed on their new home in July for a price of $285,000. John Gallivan said that he and his wife must still sell the condominium in Glastonbury where they lived until they bought their new house. Earlier this week, they dropped the price to $194,500 from an original asking price of $204,500. The couple could end up renting the condominium if they don’t find a buyer, Gallivan said.”
“He said that they are ‘motivated’ sellers because ‘carrying two mortgages can get old fast.’ But he added, ‘We don’t want to give it away, either.’”
“Taylor, Bean & Whitaker Mortgage Corp. was, until this week, one of the top 10 wholesale mortgage lenders in the country. During its heyday, the firm was awash in cash with $3 billion in assets and hundreds of banks knocking on its doors wanting to sell their mortgages to the wholesaler. Now the company is in dire straits. On Wednesday, the company ceased all new loan business and announced an intention to restructure. One day earlier, the FHA publicly announced it was turning off the taps and banned the company from doing business with the federal agency.”
“Auditors told HUD they found ‘irregular transactions that raised concerns of fraud.’ On Tuesday, Ginnie Mae stopped Taylor Bean from issuing its mortgage-backed securities. Ginnie Mae guarantees investors the payment on federally insured mortgage-backed securities. Those loans are mostly insured by the FHA or guaranteed by the Department of Veterans Affairs.”
“‘That means they (TBW) couldn’t bundle (FHA) loans and sell them as securities any more…and that turned off the tap at both ends,’ said the HUD official.”
“Borrowers scheduled for a closing should ask their brokers or lenders if their loan is affected, said Realtor Ryan Hukill, an agent in Oklahoma City. ‘The effects of this will be widespread and are tough to predict, but if you’re a homebuyer, I’d suggest that you do some checking into whether or not the mortgage you’re approved for is related to this company. If it is, get busy now and get it moved because this company is gone and its subsidiaries aren’t going to be able to get your deal done!’ Hukill wrote.”
“Taylor, Bean’s collapse ‘just blew ’safe’ as far out of the world as you can,’ said Cody McCollom, branch manager of Grandmark Mortgage in Edmond. ‘Their quick, easy, most efficient (credit source) just blew up. People are scrambling right now.’”
“In Colorado…Taylor Bean has nearly 5 percent of the FHA loan market. Boulder mortgage lender Lou Barnes said it’s unusual to see such a large mortgage lender under a fraud investigation. Just what happened at the Colorado level probably won’t be known until the forensic analysis is done. ‘That’s what a forensic analysis is supposed to do: walk the dog backwards to attempt to find what happened,’ Barnes said.”
“Three Southern Nevada banks have already disappeared in the last year. ‘On the positive side, a lot of our irrational competitors have been taken out,’ said Dale Gibbons, chief financial officer of $5.7 billion-asset Western Alliance Bancorporation of Las Vegas. ‘You had pressure to underwrite too loosely’ to make loans, Gibbons said.”
“Observers point to two key problems facing the banking industry — the recession and the revenge of the regulators. Federal bank regulators drew criticism for lax oversight during the boom days. So examiners are getting overly strict, observers say. Politicians, meanwhile, often take the opposite position of regulators.”
“‘Bankers are being publicly urged by Washington to be cooperative, to assist borrowers and businesses to make it through these tough times,’ one insider said. ‘But the banking regulators who bought into the economic prosperity just like everyone else and never criticized lending practices are now correcting those errors in an attempt to restore their names through overzealous exams,’ the insider said.’
“Bankers generally have not stopped lending, but the ’shadow banking system’ or nonbank institutions, has, said John Guedry, who recently resigned as executive vice president of City National Bank to consider a run for Congress”.
“He referred to life insurance companies, mortgage bankers, leasing companies and Wall Street firms that arranged conduit loans, such as mortgage-backed securities. ‘At the peak, they were doing 70 percent of the lending actually in Nevada,’ Guedry said. He estimated that four or five dozen conduit lenders were making hundreds of millions, if not billions of loans in Las Vegas, during the boom days.”
“In feverish times, when spinmeisters hyped the ‘Manhattanization’ of Las Vegas, grand plans were announced for some 75 high-rise towers that would deliver 47,500 luxury condominium units to a market saturated with single-family stucco homes in sprawling suburbs. The fireworks have fizzled now, though.”
“Allure put some of its units up for auction earlier this year. Buyers had forfeited their nonrefundable deposits on the units. Even at 20 percent discounts, the developer’s minimum bids were not met. Robert Daniels experienced a bit of buyer’s remorse. He had already reserved a condo at Juhl, which was delayed by more than a year in its opening, when he saw prices being reduced at nearby SoHo and Newport Lofts. He could have bought a 1,600-square-foot unit at Newport for roughly the same $440,000 he paid for a 910-square-foot unit at Juhl.”
“The number of people who can afford and justify a second home has been grossly overstated for years, said Chet Nichols, former executive at Amland Development, developer of One Las Vegas.. Contrary to what some market observers maintain, the fundamentals that drove Las Vegas’ growth are no longer in place, Nichols said. ‘Ignoring reality is what got us here in the first place,’ he said. ‘I don’t want to be a doomsayer, but the sooner people start behaving rationally the better off we will all be. Success on any other basis is always going to be temporary.’”
“Las Vegas is at greater risk than other cities that its homeowners will walk away from their mortgages even though they could afford them, according to a study by two Chicago universities. Jeremy Aguero, principal of the research firm Applied Analysis, said it’s not unusual for Las Vegas homes to have fallen from $400,000 to $200,000, and people are going to make the best economic decision for themselves.”
“‘If people look at walking away for purely an economic decision, we are going to have a lot more people walking away from their homes,’ Aguero said. ‘It would create a huge wave of problems and ramifications for the banks if a mass of people walked away from their mortgage obligations all together. It would be huge and a disaster.’”
“Richard Plaster, founder of Signature Homes, said the social constraints of walking away are lessened when people see people like the Fertitta family filing for bankruptcy protection for Station Casinos ‘I do believe we are going to see a lot more people as time goes on realize their first responsibility is to theirself and their family,’ Plaster said. ‘They are moving in that direction because it is in their best interest. They are paying an anonymous investor on their home loan, and the problem was caused by malfeasance to some extent. They wonder why they should be buried unless they believe home prices are coming back. And when they see more people walk way, they won’t feel so bad. It could be a contagion where everybody does it.’”
“The percentage of homeowners with conforming loans who will be ‘underwater’ is projected to double to 48 percent in 2011, Deutsche Bank says. And, 89 percent who have adjustable-rate mortgages also will owe more than their home is worth that year, up from 77 percent. More housing price declines are expected through the first quarter of 2011. As home prices fall, homeowner equity drops and more borrowers consider walking away from their mortgages. Add unemployment, divorce, disability or other financial challenges to the picture and the analysts write that ‘borrowers may also ‘ruthlessly’ or strategically default even without such life events.”
“The report says Las Vegas and parts of Florida and California will see 90 percent or more of their loans ‘underwater’ by 2011.”
“Drive through a neighborhood in any area of the Tucson region and it isn’t difficult to find a handful of empty homes. T’What we are seeing is people give up hope as they try doing a loan modification,’ said Long Realty Senior Associate Broker Rebecca Patsch.”
“More foreclosures are on the horizon thanks to the risky mortgages types that were taken out when home sales shot upward a few years ago. ‘So we’re looking at next year seeing the five-year resets from the boom sales,’ Patsch said. ‘A lot of times the people’s properties have gone down in value so much that they can’t refinance out of those adjustable (rate mortgages).’”
“Bank asset managers are telling real estate professionals the wave of foreclosures expected to begin in July won’t hit until somewhere between late August and October, according to Brian Russell, designated broker of Pinal County Properties in Casa Grande. Russell said we aren’t likely to see the crush of investors playing the market that we saw a few years ago, and which many people blame as one of the major causes of the crash.”
“‘It starts at the top,’ Russell said. ‘The lending institutions have really cracked down on the process. There’s no more no-doc[umentation] loans. There’s a lot of underwriting requirements that investors have to meet. Investors typically have to put 25 percent down. There’s not a lot of investors out there now - a lot of them got burned.’”
“Unemployment in recession-hit Ireland has risen to a 14-year high of 12.2 percent, the country’s Central Statistics Office reported Friday. The Irish economy has suffered a spectacular fall over the past year as the global credit crunch burst Ireland’s long-galloping property market and saddled the nation’s banks with euro90 billion ($135 billion) in defaulting loans to developers and construction firms. Scores of office blocks and apartment developments now lie empty as the number of residential mortgage-holders trapped in negative equity rises above 150,000.”
“The report said the number of job-hunters signing up for welfare benefits has surged 83 percent over the past year to an unprecedented 435,735 in this country of 4.2 million. ‘Ireland has never witnessed a job implosion on this scale,’ said lawmaker Deirdre Clune of the opposition Fine Gael party.”
“Deschutes County was the only Oregon MSA in the report that recorded a decline in per capita personal income in 2008. Timothy Duy, a University of Oregon economist who tracks Central Oregon’s economy, attributed Deschutes County’s decline in personal income to the housing market’s collapse.”
“‘I find it completely unsurprising, given that the Bend region had such a disproportionate amount of economic activity in what was revealed to be a housing bubble,’ said Duy, director of the Oregon Economic Forum at the university.”
“When Lucas Miller bought his first property in June, he decided it was no time to splurge. He opted for laminate rather than granite kitchen countertops in his $127,000 two-bedroom townhouse in Fishers, Indiana. ‘Spending another $20,000 on upgrades just didn’t make sense to me,’ said Miller, 30, a chef at Ball State University in Muncie, who bought from Pulte Homes Inc.”
“The average size of new homes is down to 2,065 square feet, the smallest since 2000, and the median price this year has yet to rise above 2004 levels, according to the Census Bureau. Builders, who lured customers in the housing boom with everything from granite countertops to Sub-Zero refrigerators, are modifying floor plans and options in response to homebuyers’ emphasis on frugality, said Brian Bethune, an economist at IHS Global Insight.”
..The high end isn’t moving, so builders have got to dumb- down their designs and put in Formica kitchens and the bare- bones carpeting,. Bethune said in an interview. ‘New-home buyers are being conservative — they’re not willing to pay for the extras because they’re worried about the economy.’”
“A Walnut Creek commercial lender that has repossessed two troubled golf course communities near Auburn has filed a claim against Nevada County, alleging a failing sewage treatment plant at DarkHorse Golf Club has halted home building at the upscale development. ‘This has gone on for two years. We can’t build any more houses,’ said Bob Bridge, vice president of real estate assets at Owens Financial Group.”
“Now, stuck with lots that are losing value and unable to build on them, Owens is paying nearly $14,000 a month to haul DarkHorse wastewater two miles to a treatment plant at the nearby Lake of the Pines community. ‘This golf course is like most golf courses,’ said Bridge. ‘If you lose only a little bit, you’re doing good.’”
“In case no one ever says it again, I am going to restate for the record exactly what Gold Rush Ranch is proposed to be - by its developer, on official planning documents. I promise to do that fairly shortly. But first, I caution readers to be unsurprised when this description does not match any of the following: - a savior for the Sutter Creek Fire Department. - a savior for the Sutter Creek Police Department. - a way to solve Sutter Creek wastewater problems.”
“I’m surprised at the length of this list of common failures to call a spade a spade. What these failures obscure, perhaps intentionally in some cases, is the question of what the need is or isn’t for Gold Rush Ranch as precisely what it is proposed to be - a group of houses for people to live in.’
“The premise - obscured as I said - is that people will need to, or want to and in fact will buy these houses in great numbers to live in. Unquestionably, a need exists for inexpensive housing. Does one exist for luxury housing? Not currently.”
“But it’s worthwhile to suggest that even though there’s no reason to suppose California forever will be stuck in an economic crash, there’s equally little reason to suppose that things in California will eventually become just as they were up to 2005 - unabashed consumerism, value placed on luxury, real-estate booms, etc. After all, to suppose that would presuppose that no lesson is being learned by just about all of us from these unexpected, yet gruelingly tough times. And, as tough to teach as people might be, I doubt that no one is learning anything.”
“Maybe there’s a couple of more metaphors for Gold Rush Ranch that need to be added to the list. One might be, ‘An idea whose time has come.’ But another might be, ‘An idea whose time has come, and gone.’”
“A recent University of Utah study projects that homeownership rates, which have declined slightly since their 2004 peak, will drop to 1980’s levels within the next year. This study, as it currently stands, is much ado about nothing. According to the U.S. Census bureau, homeownership rates are currently pegged at 67.4 percent…The much-touted homeownership rate is actually a drop of only 1.8 percentage points from the 2004 peak of 69.2 percent — while this reduction is notable, it is hardly apocalyptic.”
“Still, end-of-the-world scenarios are fun to write about and, the total massive destruction of homeownership is too big a story to ignore — even if it isn’t really happening. Rather than focus on the question of whether or not homeownership is on its way out, it might be worthwhile to consider whether or not reduced homeownership is a bad thing. Homeownership is often cited for its ability to create stable neighborhoods; this, in turn, presumably translates into stable tax bases, as well as healthy businesses, public parks, big shaggy dogs, and apple pie. On a broader context, however, all these benefits are largely the outgrowth of sufficient jobs.”
“To a certain extent, homeownership and a stable job market don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand. As homeowners in Detroit, Buffalo, Youngstown, and many of America’s other rust belt cities can certainly attest, homeownership can often keep workers from going to where the jobs are.”
“As the recent housing boom demonstrated, the American homeowner mythos has not always served its adherents all that well. This is not to say, of course, that homeownership is always a bad thing. However, it is clearly not for everybody, and the one-size-fits-all American dream of being a member of the landed gentry is more likely to serve construction companies and housing contractors than the vast majority of potential homeowners.”
“If homeownership is actually declining, perhaps we need to embrace it as a move toward sanity, flexibility, and stability.”
What a week! My thanks to the guest bloggers and moderator. We are lining up even more of your regular favorites and should have more this weekend. I appreciate those who support this blog, and a welcome to the many new readers, lurkers or not. Please check back this weekend.
Guest bloggers and a moderator? WTF?!! What the heck happened to this blog?…………Do you still need a guest sodomizer? Because I haven’t been idle…
Personally, I’d prefer if I didn’t get sodomized when I visited the blog, but hey, if everyone else is on board….
J you are a ‘ one for all and all for one’ aren’t ya!
I visit this blog to read about OTHER people getting sodomized, thankyouverymuch. Like the couple up there who bought a house and are still trying to sell their condo. They’re motivated but they’re “not going to give it away,” another way of saying “hey - who dropped that soap?”
Is this a green shoot,
I went to the FDIC website for bank failure friday and saw that only 3 banks failed this week.
“He said that they are ‘motivated’ sellers because ‘carrying two mortgages can get old fast.’ But he added, ‘We don’t want to give it away, either.’”
Wow…after all these years.
Proof that bubble mentality still exists.
In context of the above, I received an email from a friend this morning who wrote:
“Renewed the lease with my Ventura condo tenants at $200 a month LESS than this past year, so am now in the red there over $1,000/month. It’s beginning to hurt! I understand the money concerns!
Looks like the economy is turning and the real estate market won’t be far behind, I’m thinking. You should begin seriously investigating your next move.”
A very nice woman. We’re going wine tasting next weekend. Going to gently try to get her to see the light. Perhaps the wine will help.
What a wonderful investment opportunity!!! Only loose $1000 a month, that is the deal of the year!
Yet, some actually have acted on these types of ‘investments’.
Good luck in trying to convince her of her folly.
This will be the new mantra:
‘When home prices go up in the next 5 years’
Have heard that for almost THREE years already, but the mantra is still the same. Five years from now, we’ll still hear the same mantra.
‘When home prices go up in the next 5 years’
Ad infinitum.
SMF is right. Home prices are NEVER going to go up. Unemployment is NEVER going to come down. The economy is NEVER going to recover.
Cycle, schmycle, the trend lines will be down forever.
Uh-huh.
Hey, get yourself an economic education and look at any bubble chart.
They ALL do the same thing.
A lot try to figure the future by hope. I use prior examples and logic.
Will prices go back to 2005 levels. Never again.
Some of the prices paid during the 1926 Florida bubble NEVER returned to their prior level.
Ditto for a lot of those dot.com stock, including Microsoft. No one is buying Yahoo! hoping to sell at $200 sometime soon, are they?
And you can even include Beaney babies. Would you buy one hoping for that massive return?
Looks like the housing price collapse just arrived in North Carolina.
Thanks for the heads up Bill.
Looks like a certain North Carolina homeowner just reached the anger stage of grief. Pfft.
The noose should be loose around your caboose when you finally get well hung!
Yeah hit her upside the head with the empty bottle if she doesn’t get that an investment is supposed to be cash flow POSITIVE…..
———————————————–
We’re going wine tasting next weekend. Going to gently try to get her to see the light. Perhaps the wine will help.
Real Estate Refugee-
Indulge me while I digress a moment. On hulu there is a documentary w/John Cleese “Wine For The Confused”. I learned a lot.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/79439/wine-for-the-confused
Perhaps the wine will help.
Go easy on her…
When I sold my place a couple of years ago they must have forgotten to send out the hypno-toad to fill my head full of wonderful phrases like “I won’t just give it away”. I almost feel cheated.
Most of the country is still in denial, but the PTB are already heralding a housing market bottom. What gives?
You mean, the same people who told us that there was no problem now tell us that the problem (that they could not see in the first place) is OVER?!
With such a track record of being WRONG, why are some of the same idiots believed right now?
“…the same people who told us that there was no problem now tell us that the problem (that they could not see in the first place) is OVER?!”
Subprime is now contained, as is prime, Alt-A, pick-a-pay, low-doc, no-doc, etc, etc, etc…
Fox Mulder on the X-Files had a sign in his office that read, “I WANT to believe!”. That pretty much sums it up.
‘We don’t want to give it away to anyone other than the bank, either’.
Fixed.
This describes a couple I know to a tee. They carried two mortgages for almost a year, and, in the end, they did have to cut their wishing price by around $20k.
In May 2007, their property was bought by an in-VEST-or. You should’ve seen the guy swaggering around this neighborhood. It was almost comical. He thought he was a real playah. We, the neighbors, noted the $220k purchase price, and our consensus was that he overpaid.
He proceeded to split the lot and build another house in the back. He then had a great deal of difficulty renting both houses, then, when he finally did, he tried to flip the property. Bzzzt! Fail.
AFAIK, the in-VEST-or still has the place. I’m wondering when he’ll get tired of playing landlord on a not-so-great street.
It’s the street that, shall we say, gets a lot of attention from those of us who are involved in the neighborhood watch. We make a lot of calls about the activity over there.
Gee, I wonder if, since they seem to think they paid a decent price for their new home, that maybe someone would pay something comparably less for their condo? How is it that they don’t understand that if prices are coming down for them to buy, then they have to lower their prices as well?
Their condo is special, with extra magic air inside that will fill the next buyer with a lifetime of happiness and contentment.
Either that or they’re morons.
‘motivated’ sellers . . . don’t want to give it away, either
Someone is unclear on the concept.
Gotta love the “not going to give it away crowd.”
A house I’ve been tracking since 5/2008 in finally sold.
The people buy 9/2006 for $261,600, with 20% down. They spend $25K finishing the basement and $5K on landscaping.
May, 2008, they list the house for sale at $278K, because they moved to Illinois. They go through at least two real estate agents, three listings and at least one FSBO listing.
The seller refuses to lower price, as their house is “worth” what they’re asking and they don’t want to just give it away and they would rather spend $20K carrying the house for a year “when the market comes back” rather than have to pay $20K at closing. After all, they’re priced under assessed value….dummies…the assessment was based on their purchase price!
The house just sold last week - for $247K. Cool - instead of paying $20K at closing or paying carrying costs for a year they get to do both!!
I know a guy that listed for $330 and followed the market down, finally closed for $240 after 18 months of it sitting EMPTY! I figure he could have sold for $280 at the beginning and saved 18 months of mortgage payments, and he’d be $80,000 better off today if it weren’t for his stubborness.
My in-laws live in Maryland. They bought a home in 2001 or 2002 for about $250,000. There are a handful of houses around them that are basically identical on the market in the high $300,000’s. They ain’t sellin’. In fact, a few of them have been empty for months. My mother-in-law wants to move to Philadelphia (where she is from) in the next few years, but may wait until the “market improves”. And yup, she said, “WE ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE OUR HOUSE AWAY!”. So yeah, they wouldn’t accept a $100,000 above-what-they-paid-for-it-seven-years-ago offer.
“..The high end isn’t moving, so builders have got to dumb- down their designs ”
What kind of psychobabble is that? What’s wrong with saying builders are now going to start to build an affordable quality built house within the price range of the average buyer? Oh no, that may start people thinking of suing for chinese drywall, granite countertops, green lumber shrinkage, etc.
You beat me to it. Building smaller, reasonably priced homes sounds pretty smart to me.
maybe by “dumb down”, they are going to put rubber padding on some walls, and paint others with crayons.
Only dummies would buy a house without a gift-wrapping room, so obviously they’re dumbing down the house design since nobody will pay extra for a gift-wrapping room anymore. Cause they’re dumb, see? All the smart people snapped up the gift-wrapping rooms in 2006!
Are you allowed to do scrapbooking in the gift wrapping room? I’m a little late to this idea…
Absolutely not! That would be done in the “Arts and Crafts” nook off of the family room. NOT TO BE CONFUSED with the Children’s Play Area, which is not the same as the ‘mini eat-in off of the formal dining room for kids during thanksgiving.’ room.
And to think that, when I was growing up, the Children’s Play Area was called The Great Outdoors. It was truly wonderful, and it’s still one of my favorite places.
hat would be done in the “Arts and Crafts” nook off of the family room.
Don’t forget the Man Cave, Media Room and the how-the-hell-am-I-going-to-pay-all-these-bills alcove/suicide booth.
Whoa there lavi, I’m one of those who wants a media room so I can hang my Star Wars, Star Trek, and Raiders posters.
Convert the media room to a funeral parlor.
Whoa there lavi, I’m one of those who wants a media room so I can hang my Star Wars, Star Trek, and Raiders posters
I think I’m in love - except for the Raiders, can I substitute the Packers and whatever team Favre is playing for this year? And can I keep my accumulable Star Trek ornaments up all year ’round?
A house is not a home without a Zen Room.
Dumbed down for high end houses. Reminds me of the $2.5 now $1.8-1.3 is due…if you are trying to get 2.5, build it as a 2.5, not a 200k crap shak that just has higher ceilings. sheesh.
“‘It was like a snowball rolling down a hill and we’d stopped it from rolling. It will be a little while before we push it back up,’ said Curt Clemens Sr., owner of Century 21 Clemens & Sons in Hartford.”
Exactly what measures were taken to ’stop the snowball’? It almost sounds like the UHS got together and financially engineered an avalanche barricade of some sort…
‘…like a snowball rolling down a hill and we’d stopped it from rolling. It will be a little while before we push it back up,”
Where’s Sisyphus the Snowman?
“‘That means they (TBW) couldn’t bundle (FHA) loans and sell them as securities any more…and that turned off the tap at both ends,’ said the HUD official.”
Is that an example of a ‘clogged pipe’? (Cf. Gillian Tett article in yesterday’s Financial Times)
‘That’s what a forensic analysis is supposed to do: walk the dog backwards to attempt to find what happened,’
Should one bring a pooper-scooper to aid in this forensic analysis?
Should one bring a pooper-scooper to aid in this forensic analysis?
A fourth-dimensional pooper-scooper one would assume, if they’re going back in time.
But to fix the problem, rather than just analyze it, they would have to find a way to put the poop back in the dog.
Isn’t that pretty much the purpose of TARP, Treasury funding of zombie GSEs, etc? Substitute “pig” for “dog” and I think you nail it.
I recommend a caulk gun and some dog tranquilizers.
LOL
“The percentage of homeowners with conforming loans who will be ‘underwater’ is projected to double to 48 percent in 2011, Deutsche Bank says. And, 89 percent who have adjustable-rate mortgages also will owe more than their home is worth that year, up from 77 percent. More housing price declines are expected through the first quarter of 2011. As home prices fall, homeowner equity drops and more borrowers consider walking away from their mortgages. Add unemployment, divorce, disability or other financial challenges to the picture and the analysts write that ‘borrowers may also ‘ruthlessly’ or strategically default even without such life events.”
Is this prediction for a large financial meteorite to land in the heart of the USA an avoidable or an unavoidable catastrophe? At any rate, if the Obamanomics Team makes a good show of putting in place some kind of Save our Homes measure to safeguard against this widely predicted disaster, I would guess the Wall Street listed builder stocks could be a great investment over the next few years. Watch’yall think?
P.S. How is it somehow ‘ruthless’ for a borrower to protect their household’s financial interest against greedy bankers?
well.. look at it from the lender’s point of view.
You lend me a lot of money. I can easily repay it, but I say screw you. I’m not paying it back because it’s in my best financial interest not to do so. Ruthless, no?
ooops.. i overlooked that “greedy banker” reference. Of course, bankers are greedy.. evil! Their greed means you don’t have to repay loans from a bank.. disregard my previous comment.
“Ruthless, no?”
Not at all. California is a non-recourse state. My understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong
) is that from the borrower’s standpoint, a primary California mortgage loan (with no seconds, HELOCs, etc) is a contract which legally obligates the borrower the option to fulfill it in one of two ways:
1) Repay the loan;
2) Return the collateral.
Caveat emptor for lenders who believe that real estate always goes up!
What mystifies me is why more underwater homeowners don’t exercise their walkaway option. I guess there were lots of seconds and HELOCs out and about?
i think people who use lame excuses to not repay loaned money should be branded somehow.. maybe a scarlet D on their foreheads, for “deadbeat”… or “danger”. That would warn away decent people who best not have anything to do with them.
“deadbeat”
The lending industry has already reserved that term for credit card customers who pay off their charge card balances every month (like we do
).
Bear, are you admitting that you are, gasp, a credit card deadbeat? If so, I’d better ‘fess up to being one as well ;-).
When was the last time a corporation did the ‘honorable’ thing and paid out when they weren’t contractually obliged to? Only when the alternative is a public relation disaster.
Or is this one of those ‘do as I say, not as I do’ things for the little people?
i couldn’t care less what “corporations” do or don’t do.
I don’t look for moral guidance from them. Nor do I gauge the righteous of my behavior according to what happens in the business world.
Nor would I teach my children to view a corporation’s as a personal role model.
It takes two to tango. Don’t borrow if you can’t repay. Do repay if you can. A man’s word is worth more than any paper contract and worth more than money.
Of course, if your word is not important to you then do as you please.. just stay the hell away from me.
Joey, they are branded. They have a foreclosure on their record, and anybody likely to be loaning them money will be checking that credit report.
And seriously, quit assigning morality to a contract. If you loan your buddy 500 bucks and he never pays you back, that’s bad behavior. If you loan him 500 bucks to buy a lawnmower with the agreement that if he doesn’t pay you back the 500 bucks plus interest, you get the lawnmower and you wind up with a lawnmower, that’s perfectly acceptable. If you wind up with a lawnmower you didn’t want, that was poor risk management on your part.
Don’t be blaming the borrowers for the lender’s sins. Those borrowers have enough sins of their own.
sfbubblebuyer..
This thread started out with the walkaways.. people who are capable of repaying but choose not to because they don’t feel like it.
A neighbor/friend borrows my money to buy a lawnmower. I should get all my money back. He said he would repay me. He has the money to repay me.
It’s not “perfectly acceptable” that i end up with a used lawnmower. If I wanted a frickin used lawnmower I’d go buy one myself.
—–
… the lender’s sins….
and there’s the gist of this stinking argument that, although the FB can repay the loan, walking away is somehow acceptable:
The lender is in business…. and we all know business is evil. Therefore the poor borrower is somehow a victim of the lender’s scheme.
excuses excuses.. you don’t wanna pay? Fine. I’ll see you next time around.
‘…i couldn’t care less what “corporations” do or don’t do.’
What about “corporations” that manufacture nuclear bomb igniter’s or the “corporations” that have 305 million Americans personal medical & financial account information…?
ok, hwy .. Since corporation’s are out to get ya, tell us who you think we can trust to manufacture the nuke triggers.
Your excuse making for banks is blatantly transparent.
If you don’t want to write off losses, don’t lend….
There.
Can we just clarify “non-recourse” for a moment. It means that the bank can’t go after other assets in order to satisfy the loan, it does not as some people have suggested mean that there is some sort agreement that return of collateral satisfaction of the loan (if it were there would be no adverse hit to your credit). There is an [im]moral component to ruthless default. I would be like me as a business owner deciding not to pay my employees because I would rather keep the money. The only difference is that the bank (in CA anyway) do to the law can’t do anything to get the money they are owed under the contract where my employees can drag my ass to court.
But they DO get to satisfy the debt, with the house. If the banks are stupid enough to lend 100-125% (which they were doing) in non-recourse states, IT IS THE BANK’S FAULT!
The non-recourse mortgage says you will satisfy the debt by money or by property securing the debt. The contract is fulfilled and legal. If they didn’t want the house in exchange for the debt, they shouldn’t have written the contract.
There is no morality in law once the law is written, only legal or illegal. If you think a law itself is immoral, petition your lawmakers to fix it.
“But they DO get to satisfy the debt, with the house. If the banks are stupid enough to lend 100-125% (which they were doing) in non-recourse states, IT IS THE BANK’S FAULT!”
Exactly! Don’t get stuck on stupid, Joey.
No morality in law? I make enough specious arguments to know one when I see one..
What is law except the attempt to define a common, social morality? Do we not design laws on the basis of what’s good and what’s evil? What’s right and wrong?
Law doesn’t substitute itself for common moral rules. Law attempts to enhance them… to strengthen them.. Law is our effort to give morality teeth.
If law is to be faulted in this attempt, it’s because the inherent limits of laws fail to define morality in every possible circumstance.
Morality in law is only ignored when doing so is advantageous to one side of the argument, like if one party doesn’t want to repay what it owes…
Never do anything against conscience, even if the state demands it. — A. Einstein
“What mystifies me is why more underwater homeowners don’t exercise their walkaway option. I guess there were lots of seconds and HELOCs out and about?”
This could explain what happened to me and why. In 2003 I went to the loan holder and said that I wanted my loan (%7.25 taken in 1985) reduced and wasn’t going to pay any points, if they didn’t reduce it I’d go elsewhere. They agreed to reduce it for no points, put in a clause that should I sell within a years time I’d pay a prepayment penalty of $2000. When I came to sign the papers they had me set up for a $100K line of credit (HELOC) which they didn’t want to remove from the deal, now I know why. Sold in 2004 and have rented since.
Yep. Those with only one loan are generally the prudent exceptions and can afford their mortgages. The rest didn’t leave their equity ‘locked-up’ in their home. They turned it loose and it ran away.
Actually that’s not the way it works in CA.
All mortgages are “recourse”. The note part of the mortgage commits the buyer to repay the full amount and interest.
BUT in CA a section of the civil code removes the jurisdiction of the CA courts from any suit filed to recover any shortfall after default in specified cases.
California Code of Civil Procedure sec. 580 states in pertinent part:
“No judgment shall be rendered for any deficiency upon a note secured by a deed of trust or mortgage upon real property or an estate for years therein hereafter executed in any case in which the real property or estate for years therein has been sold by the mortgagee or trustee under power of sale contained in the mortgage or deed of trust.”
Thanks for the clarification, though not being a real estate attorney, I find the language hard to understand. Is it saying (in plain English) that if the lender conducts a short sale, they cannot sue to cover the shortfall from the amount owed on the loan? I see nothing there about ‘primary loans, only.’
“…in any case in which the real property or estate for years therein has been sold by the mortgagee or trustee under power of sale contained in the mortgage or deed of trust.”
What if there is no sale?
If there is no sale they can’t sue because they can’t prove how much their damages are. If the bank owns the house, it is still possible that they could sell it for the outstanding loan balance.
Well I’m not a “real estate attorney” either. Here’s a good link to an explanation in non-legalese.
http://www.ashouri.com/CAJudicialForeclosure.htm
Note the wealth of caveats. The expression “non recourse mortgage” may be a useful shorthand expression but is not the full story for many reasons. Heck to be pedantically correct there are NO “mortgages” in CA, only deeds of trust and associated notes.
Note the bar to a deficiency judgement is for a non-judicial foreclosure, not for a judicial foreclosure. A bank may select either type, and as times goes on may more likely choose the latter and then sue for the deficiency.
My long post got eaten by the filter.
Sounds like CA law is similar to WA. In WA, though it’s a “non-recourse” state, the banks can go through with a judicial foreclosure, then sue for a deficiency. They MUST, however, go the judicial route, which is more expensive, or they cannot pursue the judgment. Judicial foreclosures are rare. I’d guess that banks want to be darn sure someone has assets before they pursue them.
bear, they all think RE always goes up. So they may be underwater now, but to walk away would mean their mental bubble has finally been pierced. And no one likes to find out they are wrong. For these folks, it is devastating.
sort of like, gosh, I am not a looker just like George or Brad, just a middle age person who didn’t win the lottery in this life.
From the Mortgage Relief Formula™ / Debt Slashing Secrets web page (check carefully and use at your own risk):
List of non-recourse mortgage walkaway states
These are all the mortgage walkaway trustee sale states, meaning they are non-judicial foreclosure states.
In those states, generally, when they foreclose on you, they cannot pursue you for their financial losses.
Many, such as California, do in theory allow a lender to choose judicial foreclosure but in those cases the lenders only do so if a borrower has significant other assets. This is the “one action” rule that lets the lender either pursue non-judicial foreclosure, at lower cost and less time, or judicial foreclosure that costs more money and takes more time but lets them go after you for their financial losses.
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Colorado
District of Columbia (Washington DC)
Georgia
Hawaii
Idaho
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana (as long as non-judicial foreclosure is used)
Nevada - note that the lender CAN get a deficiency judgment (See below)
New Hampshire
Oregon
Tennessee
Texas (but even in a non-judicial foreclosure, the lender can pursue a deficiency judgment)
Virginia
Washington
West Virginia
These are states that also allow non-judicial foreclosure, and/or where non-judicial foreclosure is more common and deficiency judgments can be obtained more easily:
Michigan
Minnesota
North Carolina
Rhode Island
South Dakota
Utah
Wyoming
I’d say in most cases, the bank’s chance of collecting on a deficiency judgment is somewhere between a snowball’s chance in hell and a mortgage broker’s chance in heaven.
Professor Bear,
Well, as long as the “meteor” breaks into to two ( striking FL and SoCal? ) No, seriously, I hear where you’re coming from on the “ruthless” issue. But here’s my Final Offer:
Do away w/ the Cap Gains Exemption for Primary ( and 2nd/specuvestment ) Residence and allow these people to write off their losses.
I realize we’re sucking for revenue now, but I just don’t see it happening any other way? Besides, is anyone really… concerned they’d incur cap gains at ‘this’ point? Hell YEAH I’ll take the write off!
But they’ll only get to write off the losses against actual capital gains… so… they’re going to sell their portfolio? I’d think they’d just get more losses trying that right now.
“The report says Las Vegas and parts of Florida and California will see 90 percent or more of their loans ‘underwater’ by 2011.”
I suggest those who are interested read this book to get a sense of just how bad the outlook is over the next several years (written by a former Countrywide executive who found religion!)…
The author’s ignorance of economics is comical and some times irritating (though not surprising for someone who bailed out of an engineering degree program), but I appreciate his candor and his open recognition of many of the key factors that contributed to the financial meltdown, and his suggestions (many of them quite useful) for how to make sure it does not soon recur.
P.S. I don’t suggest you read this when you are suffering from a bout of insomnia, as doing so may contribute to your sleeplessness. (I made this mistake last night!)
I like the slip cover illustration…rather interesting…using “‘gator” bait to catch either a mouse or a rat…
“Investors typically have to put 25 percent down. There’s not a lot of investors out there now - a lot of them got burned.’”
Sounds like big banks with low interest loans from the Fed may be among the few financial entities able to invest.
nah.. there’s tons of money out here sitting and waiting while RE prices continue to fall.
The guy meant to say “There’s not a lot of stupid people with money and good credit out there now …”
Greater fools with “boxes of money and buckets of stupid” seem to be a bit of an endangered species these days, neh?
They are almost gone…
The bankers, who’s businesses and profits thrive on massive amounts of defaulting loans and bad collateral, systematically kidnapped and tortured them into signing mortgages during the bubble.
If only we had somehow protected the species… how could we have been so blind…
“…whose businesses and profits thrive on massive amounts of defaulting loans and bad collateral,…”
Isn’t that what it takes to qualify for too-big-to-fail insurance claims payments?
insurance claims payments… yeah..
Once they’ve reached that pinnacle of success where failure assures collapse, the world is at their feet. What smart banker doesn’t strive for it..
“What smart banker doesn’t strive for it…”
The one who is not too big to fail.
“The number of people who can afford and justify a second home has been grossly overstated for years.”
And the number seeking a second home they need to fly on an airplane to get to is a small subset of that.
That’s the thing that blows my mind. If you are middle class and live in an apartment in NYC, I could see also owning a cottage in the nearby mountains, by a lake, or at the shore. And if forced to live in Phoenix I could definately see wanting to escape to Flagstaff this time of year. But Vegas?
hey, it’s an adult Disneyland! the town that nevah sleeps! ring-a-ding-ding baybay!
oh wait, that was 1965.
Hey get with the times
“What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas”
Film crew from Ireland documents Detroit house demolition team. The crew is spending 2009 examining various issues affecting cities in America for a three-part documentary that will air in Ireland. “It is unbelievable,” reporter Charlie Bird said as he surveyed the numerous burned and boarded up houses in the neighborhood. “I have never seen anything like this.”
.. “We are telling people in Ireland what America in 2009 is all about,” he said.
Those houses were probably vacant for decades.. i mean.. it’s Detroit fer chrissakes.. and they never seen anything like it?
I’m inspired to pound on Ireland a little in retaliation, but i see these are just some dumb kids from Irish Public Radio on vacation.
“It is unbelievable,” reporter Charlie Bird said as he surveyed the numerous burned and boarded up houses in the neighborhood. “I have never seen anything like this.”
Ah, faith and begorrah, Charlie, have you never been to Belfast?
The worst pics I saw from Belfast were never as bad as what I’ve seen from Detroit.
I’ve seen pictures of Detroit that are similar to pictures of WWII England.
Heck today’s Hiroshima is in much better shape than Detroit. They make better cars in Hiroshima too - my Miata for one.
Hopefully, that Miata is your track car and not a daily driver.
Man in a Miata at the racetrack = ok.
Man in the mall parking lot in a Miata = just WRONG!
We went through there on a tour bus in June and as we were passing through a neighborhood in West Belfast the guide told us that this part of town had the highest murder rate in Europe throughout the 70s and early 80s. I turned to my much better half and said, “But it still looks a helluva better than Detroit.” Scattered laughter followed from the others on the bus.
Most of Belfast is very pleasant now, BTW. Almost all of the violence (which has dropped off considerably in the last 10 years) is confined to two neighborhoods that are separated from the rest of the city by a six lane motorway.
Detroit has been in a state of decline for decades. When we visited in 1998, the downtown area was full of (long ago) gorgeous mansions that have sat abandoned for decades.
Basically proof that all housing levels can go down to ZERO value.
I still have all the photos from my 1978 photo essay about Detroit. It was well into its decline back then.
One of my friends bought 30 decent houses in Detroit for $4k apiece. He hired two Bubbas, out on parole, gave them a percentage of the cash flow and filled them up with renters. They haven’t missed a click. This sounds like a good business model. What say the bretheren ? Satisfactory !!!
So, the median income in Bend is about 35K.
In December 2007 the median house price was 337K.
This real estate bubble thingy has been unbelievable.
What real estate bubble? (Have the Fed and the Treasury ever even acknowledged there was a bubble yet?)
Ode to the Sir Greenispent “box & “bubble” Index:
Published October 23, 1998
Stocks by Stacey L. Bradford (Author Archive)
The Greenspan Indicators:
WHAT DOES Alan Greenspan know that I don’t?
“…What’s next? Well, we’re not through hanging out around junk yards yet. Another indicator worth watching is the price of container boards. This is the paper product used to make cardboard boxes. Greenspan watches this because container board demand is directly tied to industrial production. By watching container board prices, “you can see the fallout of what is going on in the economy,” Mark Wilde of BT Alex. Brown says.
Due to a weakness in exports and a slowdown in the economy, demand for container board is down. Liner board, which is the flat part of the box, is now selling for $320 a ton. According to Wilde, liner board in 1995 had been as high $535 a ton. “Six months ago exports started falling off a cliff,” Wilde says. To watch for prices on container boards go to Paper & Pulp (a fee-based site), an industry publication which prints a monthly pricing table.
One slightly less obscure indicator Greenspan follows is the Supplier Deliveries component of the Purchasing Managers’ Index. The National Association of Purchasing Management (NAPM) reports this monthly. The Supplier Deliveries index tracks the lead time between when an order has been placed and when it gets delivered. If lead times lengthen, customers become concerned about lagging sales and increase orders in an effort to build up their inventories. This in turn puts more pressure on productive resources and tends to lead to inflation, explains Aubrey G. Lanston’s Jones. For September, the index was at 51.5%, a 0.9 percentage point increase from August’s index of 50.6%. “The danger zone is 55%-60%, but we are nowhere near that,” Jones says. On the first of each month the NAPM publishes it’s new index number.
Tracking these three indicators won’t make the average investor an expert on monetary policy, but it certainly can’t hurt. At the very least, one should be able to better track the overall direction of the economy. Maybe the next time the Fed decides to lower (or raise) interest rates, you won’t be taken by surprise”
“Boulder mortgage lender Lou Barnes said it’s unusual to see such a large mortgage lender under a fraud investigation.”
That’s a joke, right Lou?
Does anyone have any specific knowledge about Taylor Bean and Whitaker’s practices regarding the sale of their REO properties?
The blogs on this company only discuss the many problems homeowners have had financing or refinancing loans using this company.
The news reports make it look like the company and perhaps individuals in it were engaged in some serious fraud. The company was previously trying to work out a deal to buy Colonial Bank so that the bank could qualify for TARP funding. That deal fell through last Friday, and on Tuesday the Feds raided both the bank and TBW.
I figured I’d post this here since I know you fellow hbbers hate watching what Chris Dodd is doing in the Senate
Peter Schiff is going to run for Senate against Chris Dodd if Schiff get’s enough support. This guy is a financial genius, please take the time to search his videos on youtube or at his website http://europac.net/video.asp . I have been following him for years and he predicted this whole financial crisis years before it came to be. I’m donating to his campain, he’s a good guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJcMrOpeFWE
http://www.schiffforsenate.com/
Thanks for the post. I wish I could vote for him. He’s in Connecticut, no? (NY here) Nonetheless, although he has made some inaccurate predictions, I do believe he is an honest man. I’ve been watching his video clips for at least two years. I’d definitely vouch for him! Everyone in Connecticut should vote for him!
everyone should vote lieberman out too while you guys out there are at it.
Financial Times
Willem Buiter’s Maverecon homepage
Should Fed chairmen go around kissing babies?
July 28, 2009 6:15pm
Central bank governors should serve one non-renewable term
Central bank governors should be appointed for one fixed, non-renewable term. The ECB got that one right. Members of the Board, including the President, serve for one, non-renewable eight-year term. The Bank of England’s arrangements are deficient in this regard. The governor is appointed for a five-year term but can be re-appointed as many times as the Chancellor of the Exchequer sees fit.
…
That should be a given, AND the supremes should only have a 10 yr term, not for life, actually all of these jobs should be term limited. And if they want to run again for that post, they can, but then we need to fix campaign financing otherwise it will remain the same.
I live in the greater Hartford CT area -east of the river.
The economy here has lost 0ver 70,000 jobs since late 2007- and will probably loose another 15-20k before the recession ends here early next year.
Greater Hartford has not seen the finance Industry layoffs as Fairfield county- but has still lost jobs in Services, finance, retail, construction, and Insurance. Even health care, which has been strong saw a surprising reduction of workers recently.
Real estate sales here are still slow- prices are down about 20% compared to 3 years ago, We thus far have suffered less then the recession of 1989-1992 when real estate prices fell 30-40%. Nonetheless, if a house or condo is not listed below ‘market’ value- it will not sell.
Yes peter how many $65K jobs are being created in Hartford?
$194K kondoze? they probably owe $185K and would be lucky to get $150….but they cant just give it away.
So they will rent it for less then the mortgage and bleed a little each month for years…lucky them!