A National Clearance Sale For Our Souls
A post by ahansen,
Following the Great Purge of ‘81, when the first generation of female middle-management was systematically “downsized” in face of looming recession, American business refocused its energies from customer satisfaction to increasing production. Whether this phenomenon was causal or symptomatic is open for debate.
Almost overnight, however, advertising copy in the business press shifted from “Manage your business” into the grammatically questionable, “Grow your business.” The implication here being if your enterprise is content just providing a reliable product or service while maintaining itself and its employees– you’re ripe for hostile takeover. In what was euphemistically dubbed, “reorganization,” corporate raiders ransacked the landscape leaving mass lay-offs and smoking ruins of once-solid assets in their wake.
“If you’re sitting still, you’re dead in the water” became corollary to the iconic, “Greed, (for lack of a better word,) is good.” Investors took note and threw money at these new entities as “deregulation” compounded the pillage. The “outsourcing” of American jobs had begun.
Yet, in the last thirty years, fewer and fewer American employees have been responsible for more and more output, and up until very recently, production has not only held steady, it has increased significantly- albeit in good part to the effects of cheap foreign labor both here and abroad.
At some point, however, we became too efficient, and productivity ran away with us. Too many houses, too many cars, too many flat screen TV’s, too many freaking hamburger patties– yet public policy continued to reward units produced over such intangibles as environmental cost or the market’s ability to absorb them. Any rational assessment of actual need was colored by the expectation that demand would only continue to increase. And as everybody knew “real estate only goes up.”
Now we’re saddled with a glut of stuff no one can afford to buy—or needs to buy. C4C encourages Americans to buy the overproduction of cruddy cars. Fanny and Freddie, the overproduction of cruddy housing and cruddier mortgages. One can even argue that the global financial mess is the result of overproduction of fanciful derivatives by cruddy hedge fundians and money market manipulators.
We’ve produced stuff so well in fact, that we’ve reached the point of oversaturation –where we’re literally throwing away perfectly useable vehicles (a long way up the consumerist food chain from pouring tanks of milk into the street to jack up prices,) and bulldozing unlived-in housing—this while people live homeless, presumably in their newly subsidized fuel-efficient vehicles.
It’s obviously way past time to downsize our national and personal economies—to stop “growing” them and let our financial fields rest fallow for a few years so they can recover.
To its credit, America seems to be “getting it,” although we’re being dragged out writhing and screaming, our collective fingernails snagging the carpeting as we go.
A NEW WORK ETHIC?
Perhaps it’s time to declare an end to the era of Productivity, and come up with some new construct that better reflects our Country’s needs. If no one wants or can afford to buy what’s produced, what the point of producing so much of it? After all, no one wants to “just give it away.” And we all know that to distribute it among the needy would be “socialist,” –and we can’t have that.
So we scrap it. Or dump it. Or doze it. Or downsize it. Then we bail the producers out so it we can waste some more.
All the while, our unions, our executive oligarchy, and our governmental agencies, all fearful of losing their benefits and bonuses continue to expect the status quo to remain the status quo–insist upon it even. And the rest of us watch as our standard of living seeps away into the tax base, (or the offshore accounts of who-knows-whom,) along with our hopes for an even remotely dignified retirement.
At some point the resentments of the have-nots always seem to outweigh the satisfaction of haves, and the equation takes a sudden and sometimes bloody tip towards re-balance. We’re not there yet, and we may indeed manage to head off outright rebellion, but for the first time since the Debacle in Viet Nam nearly tore our country apart, I can foresee the possibility of mass civil protest, if not active resistance, shutting down what we used to call The System. Certainly we talk about it enough here on HBB, and more than one national pol has even called for secession.
In the interests of civic harmony, maybe we shouldn’t expect to buy a new car every four years anymore. Maybe we shouldn’t expect “vacation” homes and four imaging screens in every household. Maybe we shouldn’t expect businesses to be open seven days a week and fast food joints to take credit cards “for our convenience.”
More to the point, maybe we shouldn’t feel as though we’re expected to expect all this. Maybe we’ve finally produced enough stuff and can get on with creating a more perfect union–with our country, our gods, our family, our retirement funds, whatever
I’m not arguing for a new Ludditism here. If anything, the money currently being poured into propping up and bailing out inefficient industries and outmoded systems should be going into education, research, and development of new technologies and modalities to see us through the next century and beyond.
But the only way our market, let alone our governance, is going to re-prioritize its expectations and become, well, marketable again is if we the people re-prioritize our expectations. And given our dwindling incomes and depreciating assets, it’s not going to be all that much of a stretch for us to stop consuming and start refurbishing what we’ve already accumulated.
Maybe we need to have a national clearance sale for our souls and take that 20% off what we’ve come to believe is our rightful inheritance. It certainly couldn’t hurt what’s left of our bottom line. And who knows, it might even become the new Normal.
Part of the beauty of production was always supposed to be the improvement of quality of life through efficiency. 1980s cell phone technology goes from an expensive and impractical tool of the elite and rich to a must-have for everyone at prices that they can afford.
The problem is somewhere along the line they decide to stop lowering prices with the increased productivity and it stagnates until better competition comes in.
I agree with so much of your post, except the basic premise that overprodcution caused this.
Not saying overproduction is a cause. It’s a symptom of an ethic that is no longer sustainable. Reduce workers’ hours, and up to a certain point production (as measured per worker hour,) increases. But eventually not enough consumers are left to afford what is produced. An interesting equation-alas beyond my calculus.
http://tinyurl.com/ltvont
Or share the wealth with the workers. Believe it or not, they have an insatiable desire for all these new toys. They just need the income to afford them.
When will the PTB recognize that they can’t have it both ways? Poor people don’t buy stuff.
Poor people don’t buy stuff.
Yes they do, with credit cards. Now, when they run out of credit, they stop. We can’t be having any of THAT. So we give them more credit…
Believe it or not, they have an insatiable desire for all these new toys. Yep. It’s amazing how many of todays “neccsseties” didn’t exist when I was younger. The problem is too much credit IMHO. For the last couple of decades, we’ve decreased the taxes on returns to capital (which for the most part means that we’ve lowered taxes for the well off) on the theory that this money would be invested in productivity improvements leading to a “rising tide” that would help everybody. What we’ve found instead is that an increasing percentage of wealth was “invested” in lending to those who were less well off. More credit card debt, larger mortgages, more HELOC money. We are discovering that there are always people who will borrow more than they can pay. And when they can’t pay, it’s the bankers, pension funds and, yes the prudent savers who won’t be repaid.
So it’s not rising productivity that ’s the problem, it’s the fact that the money that we were told would increase productivity instead inflated a boom/bust as it was lent and spent, and the debts are now a drag on the consumer economy.
“The problem is too much credit IMHO.”
I, for one, wholeheartedly agree with you. Credit inflates the cost of many items, I think. Like houses, etc. The price of many things would come down if credit were not so easily available. The price of “stuff” compared to wages is way out of whack because of credit, IMO.
Well I would argue that credit is like alot of things: too little is bad, and too much is bad. In the absence of home mortgages, we’d have a landlord/renter society. Now there’s nothing the matter with renting, but ther ARE prices where it makes more sense to own if you,re reasonabley settled. After all, a house lasts a long time, there’s nothing wrong with living in it while one is paying for it. But in particular, much of the “excess” mortgage lending was spent on relatively transient consumer goods, either through HELOCs or REFIs. THAT (and rising CC debt)is the proof that credit was too easy.
Jim,
While they decreased taxes in such a way as to make STOCK ownership more attractive, this IMO is another boondoggle like houses — stocks are just as overpriced as houses.
They did not decrease the tax on money LENT, whether lent to mortgagors or lent to corporations. Interest is still treated as ordinary income.
But of course much of the money lent was then turned into bonds, which DO, ISTR have a tax advantaged status.
Ahansen…the market is making this so. I know many companies that are decreasing production because the demand is simply not there.
So said Marx, but history hasn’t born him out so well as a theorist. I’m going to avoid the socialism arguments because it’s just politics and doesn’t help us here.
But even Marx did recognize that there were sufficient fundamental shifts to reorder the markets. Revolution was his preferred, but external warfare also works. (WWII, anyone?)
Too bad these solutions are so deadly. The exceedingly cynical side of me says they work because they are so deadly. Kill enough people and take all their shinies until you’re content.
There was a very strange Brit television show on US tv a while ago - Connections or something like that. One episode included an extrapolation of the long term consequences of the Black Death in Europe.
The argument went something like this:
Before the plague, there were enough people that they had expanded onto land that was barely arable. It took all the work the community could muster just to feed itself because it was so hard to grow anything on marginal land. Reducing the population by about a third, meant that people could go back to only working the truely productive land and still feed everyone. Since it took less work to grow food on this land, labor was freed up to do other things including making nicer clothes for the lower classes (rich people already had nice clothes), etc. Result, economic prosperity based on vast increase in productivitiy in food production. But then he added one more thing - because so many people had died, there was also a labor shortage in areas that had primarily created the luxuries of the upper classes. Workers could bargain for better treatment because the upper class needed their labor so the productivity increase in farming didn’t just result in a bunch of people getting kicked out of the system to starve to death.
We may have increases in productivity, but I don’t see a labor shortage as globalization means that people who used to provide goods and services only to themselves and their immediate neighbors enter the global market place.
The rest of the tv show went on to talk about how all those people who could finally afford underwear created an excess of linen rags which people could turn into paper and lead to printing and books and ordinary folks becoming literate and all that. It was funny. I enjoyed it. Maybe it was on TLC back when that was The Learning Channel and not just about flipping houses or buying clothes or 5 year olds in beauty pagents.
How typical for cable TV stations to start out so promising, with a clear mission..then botch it all up.
Just like everything else I guess.
Cable stations start out with a defined niche and then all of a sudden decide that they want to be the next ABC/CBS/NBC/FOX and change to become just another boring channel out of 700 on cable.
It was a wonderful PBS series with Sir David Attenbourough. Facile, witty minds like that don’t come around very often–especially not with those production values.
James Burke of BBC did a series called “The Day the Universe Changed.” Picked out certain times in history that seemed to be going along a straight path that would never change then something came along and caused the path to change.
Great series. I highly recommend it.
Connections was also from James Burke. Both very good shows IMHO. Certainly A Distant Mirror by Barbara Tuchman is a book that talks extensively about how the population decrease led to labor shortages and rising incomes.
i would place Picketts Charge on the third day of Gettysburg as one of those Days.
James Burke sounds right. I think I remember The Day the Universe Changed too. Liked ‘em both.
I have the James Burke “Connections” DVDs and yes in one episode it discusses the financial fallout of the Plague. Those that were left inherited from those who died and the concentration of capital kicked off a boom.
“How typical for cable TV stations to start out so promising, with a clear mission..then botch it all up.”
Does anyone else remember that cable was once called pay TV? One of its selling points was that to compensate for paying a fee - there would be no commercials.
Ms. Hansen,
I remember being stranded at Kramer Junction at Thanksgiving in 1988 and watching for hours the endless stream of motorhomes, campers and new cars - many pulling trailers with boats, ATCs and dirtbikes - and wondering to myself, “My god we are a rich country! How do all these people afford all these things?”
Now we know.
Thanks for the great write-up.
Get a closeup of the names of the roads…borax 20 mule team suckow …. classy
I had a similar sense of wonder at the height of the housing bubble when I walked through a newer subdivision and wondered that so many people could not only afford to pay twice as much for a house than they would have paid just five years earlier, but could also afford a boat and high end luxury car. That particular community has a large number of foreclosures, and prices are more than 40% off their peak. Unfortunately, I think during the housing bubble a heck of a lot of people were dual income families.
This remains one of the few countries where it is possible to be driving down the highway and get hit by a boat!
They stopped lowering prices because people had access to more money through credit. Businesses charge whatever the market will bear. If there is way more cash around, then the market will set a higher price. Businesses don’t decide to lower the price out because that is the “fair” thing to do given that productivity is up. They take the difference in profits. That is what they are supposed to do. Increased productivity can allow them to lower the price and still stay in business if competitive pressure forces them to lower prices, but they don’t do it just to be nice.
If cell phone companies had been dealing with a universe in which workers had less purchasing power from their salaries and no increasing availability of credit, prices would have come down faster.
ahansen,
Seems a lot of that school of thought was outlined in:
America: What Went Wrong?
http://www.amazon.com/America-Wrong-Donald-L-Bartlett/dp/0836270010
It was originally printed during the inception point and chronology you mention. Still as relevant today as ever. IMHO.
I just snagged the last copy on Amazon, D. Thanks for the recommendation!
ahansen,
It was brought to my attention when I got out of the service in the late 80’s. Friends were trying to warn me that uh.., it wasn’t the same country you’d remember?
Particularly interesting was the chapter on Simplicity Sewing Patterns. What they did to that company shouldn’t have happened to a dog.
Cocain is Gods way of telling you, you have too much money !!!
I hate to keep beating this dead horse, but it keeps coming back to life, so…
Please take a look at Figure 2 on this page, and tell me whether we experienced “deregulation” during the ’80’s:
www dot hoover dot org/publications/digest/3020261.html
(Otherwise, nice post.)
Hi, Lehigh.
Having dismantled California’s educational and social services and turned them over to his political handlers to loot, President Ronald Reagan was swept into office on a mudslide of pro-privatization sentiment. His first big political victory was breaking the air traffic controllers’ union–heralding the deregulation of the transportation industry. Other sectors followed with remarkable um, regularity.
Granted, not all deregulatory legislation came to pass during the 1980’s but the political die was most definitely cast during that era and myriad legislative committees appointed to draft legislation–at all levels of government. More importantly, deregulatory-minded behind-the-scenes personnel were appointed and given broad new powers to (de) regulate. Alan Greenspan comes to mind.
If “the transportation industry” hadn’t been deregulated (which happened in the Carter administration, btw), much of it would have gone away. The railroads were on their last legs — epitomized by the Penn-Central merger-then-bankruptcy — before the Staggers Act got rid of regulations designed for the age of steam engines.
That’s the problem with the regulatory approach — you pass regulations designed to solve a particular problem, which half the time has changed form by the time the regulations go into effect; the regulations then take on a life of their own and can’t be changed, even after they’ve outlived their purpose and the economy has shifted beneath them. They also suck up the regulatory energy, so it’s hard to pass new regulations to address the problems that are actually relevant to the day.
The cause of the economic crisis was not “deregulation,” but rather a failure to regulate CDS, CDO, option-ARMS, no-doc loans, etc., in the first place. And nobody — Republicans or Democrats — seemed to have any interest in, or competence to, regulate these things.
Airlines would not have gone away, they would have stayed exactly where they were in 1978, profitable.
Right on Skip.
And we would still be paying an arm and a leg for air travel. The airlines were profitable because of price-fixing and restrictions on competition. When industry does that by itself, it’s illegal. When government does it, that makes it all okay, but either way, the consumer gets fleeced.
Thomas
I would agree with part of your last paragraph, “The cause of the economic crisis was not “deregulation,” but rather a failure to regulate CDS, CDO, option-ARMS, no-doc loans, etc., in the first place”. In the case of the town I live in, Merced CA, ground zero of no-doc loans. Of all outstanding mortgages in Merced County, 40% are in some stage of foreclosure. The resulting collapse of the building boom has helped to raise our unemployment number to 21.5%. Three major chain stores have closed their doors in the past year. Newly built shopping and office complexes sit empty. Drive through the new housing developments and it seems one house in three is empty. It will take decades for this to remedy. I feel lucky that my wife and I own our home outright, bought for cash in 1993. Under Prop 13 in California, our property taxes are controlled to the effect that last year our taxes were only $1900. Last month we received a letter from the city informing us we had been reassessed and that our taxes next year will be $1455. Now imagine this decrease across the city, especially the loss from all the inflated property in the past decade and you can see the next problem of this whole debacle. How does the city continue to pay for basic services?
However, this is not always the case. I go back to Ireland and the UK on a very regular basis, family, and there it was nearly all due to just very low regular mortgage interest rates. Of course, add in the hype from the real estate industry and pure greed from all participents, the result is the same.
Thanks for the Merced, CA observation, David. I agree that it will take decades for the area to recover.
First, the transportation industry was deregulated during the Carter administration (and a good thing, too — especially with the railroads, which would have been dead without the Staggers Act).
Second, the problems we’re experiencing are less a function of “deregulation,” than of failure to propery regulate exotic real estate finance and securitization in the first place — something that nobody, Republicans or Democrats alike, had any inclination (or evident competence) to do.
(Pardon the possible double post.)
Paulson, and others, beg the govt to dregulate Derivatives in 2004, according to what I’ve read, and we discussed in my Structured Finance class. What I don’t understand is why WS was allowed to go OTC, and not through ISDA? (International Swap Derivative Assoc.) MBS, CLO, CDS, CDO’s were internationally regulated.
To bad that the governator doesn’t have the stones to s–t can all the SEIU and prison guards if they go on strike. To solve Ca’s financial problems 1) We have to kick out the 12 million illegals 2) cut the pay 25% of all state workers 3) cut the benefits 50% 4) Cut holidays from 15 to 8. End of comment, problem solved.
Actually, I’m surprised that states haven’t dumped their dental and vision benefits like the federal government.
Since I almost always at least attempt to salvage something before I can bring myself to throw it away..? I like to point to the tire re-treading industry. It was once a thriving example of very practical applications. An early “green industry” if you will?
And they were perfect for so many people. The truck that never leaves the farm, teens first cars and mostly snow tires during the winter. Well… cheap ( and ‘efficient’ ) overseas labor made it so that a new tire was almost a cheap as a re-tread ‘anyway’!
It was always dirty, labor intensive work and I never knew anyone that wanted to make a career out of it, but it was a great entry level job and a great way to learn the business. Alas, no more.
I like to point to the tire re-treading industry.
Have you driven a highway in the southwest lately?
Re-treading for the uses you outlined above might make sense, but it’s been a nightmare since it was legalized for semis.
The mess left by de-treading semi-truck tires on the highways out here is dangerous and awful.
lavi-d,
Again, it’s a cost benefit analysis. The industry has been keen on the criticism so they are aware there’s a problem. But the truth is, unless you like paying $5 for a gal. of milk..!? I think ‘that’ end of the industry is here to stay.
I’m told, under inflation is the main culprit. When under inflated the casing and the tread are no longer the same circumference and that’s when they come apart. So it’s on the fleet maint. side, not the re-manufacturer side.
It comes back to ahansen’s point that we’re “driving productivity” to the point of sacrificing safety etc. Drivers aren’t given adequate time to rest, let alone check air pressure. Btw, even in drizzly OR we see that issue.
I’m told, under inflation is the main culprit.
That makes sense DinOR. Nevertheless, this “green industry”, for whatever the reason, has had an extremely adverse affect. Millions of tons of tire treads along thousands of miles of highway.
Unintended consequences, I guess.
lavi d,
I have a lot of clients that work in this business ( and they love to pass the whiskey around ) and they said without re-treading it would be enormously wasteful.
Goodyear has what they call a Million Mile truck tire and will re-cap it as many as 5 times! If you only used them once, we’d need 5 times the material. Additionally, they are injection molded so the sheer force of friction to fill the mold ( creates it’s own heat! )
Lastly, if they’re defective or over loaded, even a NEW tire will blow out. It’s like saying we’d need to throw out shopping carts after (1) use.
I have a lot of clients that work in this business ( and they love to pass the whiskey around ) and they said without re-treading it would be enormously wasteful.
Well, at least they’re saving space in the landfills…
D’oh!
It’s like saying we’d need to throw out shopping carts after (1) use.
With all the obesity in the US, you say that as if it were a bad thing.
Walmart was instrumental in SuperSizing grocery carts.
Psychology makes people want to fill up a cart, like a big dinner plate vs a 1960s size 9″ plate.
So, if it is big, stuff it.
Pile it on high.
So we have fatter people and too much stuff.
Today, we see people cutting back and putting a few things in those ginormous grocery carts in all stores now.
I noticed that when I was at costco and only getting a few things, there should be a fast line-there is none, and that is when I realized, don’t need a membership any longer.
Go with friends.
A truck driver here died yesterday when a tire on his fuel tanker truck blew and he failed to make a turn at the bottom of a hill. He went through the guard-rail and into a lake. He was killed by not being belted in and he was thrown clear onto some shore rocks. The tanker burned.
Tires, auto and truck, are good for seven years. After that you chuck them. We had
Michelins on our coach and the two tags were
seven years old and had almost all their tread, yet we changed for new ones, setting us back almost a grand.
There’s not a trucker or company that will run with old tires, the sidewalls explode
and can run a good day. It’s not the tread, but the flexing of the sidewall and UV degradation of the rubber compounds.
run = ruin
A: Costco/Sams has great deals on tires
B: New vehicles are equipped with a system that sends the tire pressure to the vehicle, and driver gets an alert if the pressure is out of wack. It’s not very expensive to implement new.
Known as Road gators
Very, very well said.
Too many products nobody want, too many houses nobody want to buy?
I do not think so, I think it is price set too high, at least for house. I want a house, a single family house in a nice location, who does not, only if it is affordable to ME. I hate talking like that, it does not transfer or distribute common sense, only make thoughts more chaotic.
Like I said above, people do want to buy new cars, TVs, houses, etc.
The catch is that they need good paying jobs, which Corporate America has lost all interest in providing.
I feel very pessimistic about that aspect, too much a government, endless war effort, too big a wall street/national debt acquired in the bubble-bursting, ever-escalating medical cost… All these need to be supported or resolved somehow for current economic to continue, which I feel little confidence for it to resolve in orderly fashion. The worst is that there is no action taken to resolve them, all the measures taken are to delay or avoid the inevitable(IMHO).
Not too much government. To much corporate owning of government. Corporations Tell gov what to do, tell congress what to do. Take away Personhood of corporations and we will or might see a balance return. Till then, and this fall might seal the mess up real tight. Remove monopolies.
As your language skills improve so will your grasp of concept. (”Too many” is not the same as “all.”) My writing is a bit florid, but I have to try to make my thoughts accessible to all manner of readers here. Thanks for your post.
Hi ahansen
I always appreciate your good insight and comments. Sometimes I have to slow down or read them twice… and think. Whether it’s due to your life experience or a good educational background, you do have a way of sending your points and messages over like a shell across the bow.
Just saying “Thanks”
I love you back, mikey. Thank YOU.
It is all about concept. Maybe it is time to reorganize your thought or expand it. We are not at a point that there are too many products we can not consume them up or most people here get what they need or want. I am listening, I hope you do too. Counter my point, or take the red pill and believe what you want to.
I’m not arguing consumerist wants here, vice, I’m proposing we alter our perceptions of consumerist needs. I feel that this country’s productive energies could be far better utilized in other, more far-reaching sectors than building more housing tracts in the Inland Empire or more 30K automobiles. The fact that we’re now subsidizing people to purchase them argues the obvious point.
What’s a red pill? An upper? I’m far too hyper as it is, I fear….
I’m proposing we alter our perceptions of consumerist needs.
Alter them to what? What do you propose should be consumerist “needs”. Can needs or wants change by edict? Is one person or a group capable of determining the needs of everyone?
Some societies have attempted to force the issue but the outcome is never pretty.
America is famous for leaving it up to the people to decide what they want and need. That freedom is the very core of our society. That freedom allows us to grow in any direction we choose, and it’s why we have the affluence, wealth and power we have.
Try to take that freedom away and you may have your revolution.
——
look.. So we’ve had a huge bubble.. it was just an anomaly. It’s not the first and won’t be the last. Will we survive it’s efffects? Most probably.. Is it cause for alarm? Certainly.
Should we change our very way of life due to the miscalculations some people made in the last couple years? Hell no.
“we” changed our needs during WWII so why can’t we adjust our needs going forward? We all pitched in together and it brought the american citizen closer together.
What is so different now? We are all spoiled beyond belief.
I want it NOW. And if it isn’t exactly what I want NOW, then I will whine/pout, throw a fit, and so on. There does need to be a readjustment and become a nation united.
Whateverjoey.
desertdweller.. yeah.. i get that.. but the vital questions remain unanswered.
If our current needs and wants are somehow destabilizing or detrimental to us, what should be our needs?
Who should have the authority to determine our needs if not ourselves?
I think our wants are in fact adjusting well, towards our actual needs.
While there were some end-users involved in creating the housing bubble, I believe “investors” played a bigger role, even in cases where they were owner-occupiers. The whole society thought everyone could prosper without actually working.
AZ_LENDER prospers without actually working, and believe me I appreciate the privilege, but I do so it will never be available to everyone, since someone must provide the goods and services. (Yeah, I do work, maybe 12 hours a month in a very bad month.)
Good point Joey. Humans have extraordinary talent for distinguishing between wants and needs.
I just watched some TV and you know what? I really, REALLY need a Hummer. And some Cialis NOW.
Cialis
See Alice ( guy pointing at ..)
Someone at some point probably worked and the resulting money went to az_lender, which az_lender now uses to live on.
“…Maybe we shouldn’t expect businesses to be open seven days a week and fast food joints to take credit cards “for our convenience.”
Hey ahansen, you reminded me of a song I haven’t listen to in a long long time (1974):
Living high in the city, guess you think it’s a pretty good way
You get to learn but when you get burned you got nothing to say
You seem to think because you got chicken to go you’re in luck
Fortune will not find you in your mansion or your truck
Brothers will desert you when you’re down and shit out of luck
Look around at the morning, guess you’re doing the best you can
Surely you know that when you go nobody gives you a hand
Think of the air you’re breathing in, think of the time you waste
Think of the right and wrong and consider the frown on your face…
Gordon Lightfoot — Seven Island Suite (Sundown album)
Ahansen…What a gal…I feel lucky to have had the opportunity to meet you so I can more fully appreciate your musings…
Hug2U, sc.
I think that more and more jobs are in the “service” industry and are at least two-shifts, 7 days a week.
The normal 9-5/Mon-Fri shifts are getting to be fewer and fewer.
Eloquently stated Ahansen.
And this is what happens when sound policy is stripped away and the thieves are promoted to slave masters.
What if it is true? What if the whole “you are your job” work ethic society is coming apart at the seams, and not everyone is required to produce everything you need? Think about this, but if you consume even moderately, you probably in net have several Chinese laborers working full time to meet your “needs”.
So if we don’t “work” for a living, how do we provide for our families? What is next?
“So if we don’t “work” for a living, how do we provide for our families? What is next?”
1) House Servants for the wealthy elite
2) Lawn boys for the wealthy elite
3) Grocery getters for the wealthy elite
ah…… ah….. ah……. and we need rich people…. er sumpin…. right?
GH-
It’s been my experience that one works a lot harder to provide when one does not have a job than when one does. But as a lot of hard-core unemployed can attest, it can be done–even done with a modicum of comfort. But it’s certainly not for the faint of heart.
As for what’s next…that’s where Malthus and the Market come in, neh?
“So if we don’t “work” for a living, how do we provide for our families?”
Wealth distribution is an important part of the equation in this mess, just as much as production. Working for a living and receiving a wage is the means by which we claim a portion of the production. The Western worker is has been taking a hit on two fronts.
1) Workers from poorer nations are willing to work for less than we are. Many say that foreign workers are getting ’slave wages’, yet it often represents a significant increase in standard of living. In this way, we are seeing a redistribution from the middle class to the lower class (globally speaking).
2) The Western worker has been guided into a lifestyle of debt. Interest on that debt leads to a drag on earnings for the worker, which also represents profits for companies which are used to justify big bonuses. In this way, we are seeing a redistribution from the middle class to the upper class.
Interestingly, if we didn’t use so much debt then we wouldn’t push prices up as high. Then we could afford to live with lower wages more easily.
Very well said, Al.
So if we don’t “work” for a living, how do we provide for our families? What is next?
THIS IS NOT A JOKE.
Thought I’d get that out of the way, because I am usually such a smartass.
We are rapidly approaching the singularity.
This is the time when futurists predict that machines will take care of our every need. Including matter recombinators which will produce anything from anything.
Just think of digital copies and what the technology has done for the music industry (I said, “Music Industry”, not “Recording Industry”). More people listening to more music made by more people.
Provided we don’t blow ourselves up, or poison ourselves or make the earth uninhabitable, you may find yourself in a time when working is an option and the alternative is not death by starvation or exposure to the elements.
Get ready.
Thought I’d get that out of the way, because I am usually such a smartass.
WALLY-E…EVAaaaaa
Those hedonistic characters actually exist…they were at camp site #17 in Kings Canyon last April!
LOL So THAT’s what that was all about.
What is next is becoming more and more like a third world country. How do you think the rest of the world is structured? They do not have a viable middle class. They have rich and then the poor. I am not saying America will become Bangladesh but be prepared for a significant portion of our population to become even poorer. We will learn to accept it and even look the other way like they do elsewhere in the world.
Until we reprioritize the way we live in every way we will continue to decay just like every other “empire” has throughout history. We have too many powerful people vested in the “status-quo” to make the changes required. I fear that it will not end well for the average working joe.
The Three Laws of Robotics
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Too funny. Have you seen the RepRap and cupcake CNC kits? Build your own 3d printer. Prints objects in plastic. Cheap versions of the nicer commercial units.
That has got to be up there with some of the best personal essays I have ever read. Brava, my dear.
I am not sure that I agree that we could be on the verge of meaningful protests, though. Right now we are dealing with a fear response. laced in some cases with a healthy dose of ignorance. Seniors are afraid that the “government will mess with their Medicare.” Students are afraid there will be no jobs for them when they graduate. At a party at my uncle’s house in Vermont last winter, I could hear the college professor crowd afraid that their university would be gutted. And many many people are afraid that the world is changing and it may not change back - getting an education won’t be enough to get a decenst job, working hard won’t be enough to get regular promotions and pay raises, getting pay raises may not be enough to have a better life style because health care costs (or whatever else) will eat up all the increase, and on it goes.
Angry people protest, but I’m not sure that fearful ones do or if they do I’m not sure how effective they are. I don’t remember anything of politics from the Vietnam era. I don’t even have any personal memories of my cousin who died there or what went on with my family when it happened, but the film clips of the era make it look like people were more angry than fearful. I know that fear can translate to anger, but isn’t it more of an anger that becomes a quick verbal or physical lash out at something that can’t hurt you? An adult fearful of losing a job may lash out quickly at a loved one because of the stress, but do they organize carpools of people to Washington? It seems ironic since our technology would make it so much easier to organize such a thing. Perhaps that is the issue, more than fear vs. anger. The protests of the past happened because people needed to know that others shared their ideas and getting together in one place was the best way to do that. Now, all you have to do is find a companionable group on the internet, and there is no need to travel all that way and find a place to sleep.
Polly, excellent post, especially the last part.
Angry people protest, but I’m not sure that fearful ones do or if they do I’m not sure how effective they are.
Nicely said, but the one thing missing from your equation is the thin line between fear and anger — it’s not a unchanging gulf, it’s a fluid dynamic, with both personal and societal tipping points. Fear can quickly morph into precisely the anger you’re talking about. If that happens, we may see the motivation to protest or lash out in other ways.
“Fear can quickly morph into precisely the anger you’re talking about.”
And it can happen in the blink of an eye. Look at how the former Soviet Union fell. Look at the protests in Tienamen Square. Things like this have a way of going viral and all ‘exponential phase change’ on you. When it does, good luck trying to manage it or stuff it back into it’s cage. It’s like pising into a hurricane.
As long as everyone still has their Xbox360, satellite tv, and 50″ HDTV, there will be very little marching in the streets.
The next revolution will take place on WOW.
The next revolution will take place on WOW.
Yeah - a revolt raid! Thanks, that made me laugh.
Angry people protest, but I’m not sure that fearful ones do or if they do I’m not sure how effective they are.
Would like to add Poor people have a hard time protesting, not poor in street poor either,
1970- $7-$8 was not a bad wage, gas was what .25 cents?, motel room $20? No cable, cell ph, net charges to pick the last penny from your pocket.
2009- $14-$20 is wage you are going to find in market now, gas $4, motel room $80?, Bills , cell ph, cable, want a home, Microwave, dishwasher, air condition 2 car garage, higher efficiency water heater and furnace but higher price per unit cost also. That is just apples to oranges on homes than and now, Cars,?? Auto trans , air, gps, electric windows, 10 speakers, all standard now. Not the same world, and pity on our poor kids.
about that time I was living in these weekly motel kitchenettes for $40/week. Got everything taken care of, if I got a phone call a buzzer would go off and I had to go outside to use the public phone. And making good union wages worth more than I’m getting now in real dollars.
Those were the days..
In 1970, $7-8/hr, was very good wage. That’s 15-16 thousand/yr. Your average teacher made half that.
In 1970 in California the minimum wage was $1.65/hr, IIRC.
I was in college during Vietnam. Back then we also had the hippie revolution. I grew up with eight siblings, so not much money, and I had to put myself through college. Because of my background, it seemed to me the hippies were from a privileged class, rebelling against conformity, against old-fashioned moral constraints, perhaps against conservatives. Vietnam was the poster child of this excess for them. I did not see any fear in the hippies because of their privileged background and because of the affluent society at that time. I think there are some similarities between Vietnam and Iraq because both wars were a disaster. What was gained? The hippies though we were morally wrong to be in Vietnam. With Iraq, there was no moral indignation and now there is sympathy for the soldiers, although I am still left wondering why we were fighting in Iraq. (Afghanistan I can understand since it relates to 9/11). Anyway, there is not anger, but fear as Polly points out. I do not see fear converting to anger since we are responsible for the greed that precipitated the dot com and later the housing bubble. If we get angry, it must be at ourselves for the greed that precipitated these excesses. The hippies became yuppies. Greed took over. Well it seems to me the government is trying to get another bubble going with all the supports for spending on cars and housing. It’s like “the bubble is dead, long live the bubble”. And the conservatives have now had their heyday.
With Iraq, there was no moral indignation and now there is sympathy for the soldiers, although I am still left wondering why we were fighting in Iraq.
I think there was and is plenty of moral indignation about our war with Iraq. That moral outrage wasn’t covered the same way by the media, it didn’t seep into the popular culture the same way it did in the ’60s, and hawks once again tried to tamp it down or brand it as “un-American” at every turn.
On the plus side, our soldiers have received much more sympathy and respect than they did in the Vietnam era. I think that’s a lesson learned the hard way after the Vietnam experience — blame the leadership, but not the grunts out in the field doing the work.
DUDE:
We got so many who want to volunteer we have to put them someplace
————————————————–
although I am still left wondering why we were fighting in Iraq.
“…although I am still left wondering why we were fighting in Iraq.”
Israel.
It was so much more than anger, Polly. It was a battle for a way of life. For ascendancy. A hugely marginalized population (blacks, the educated young, the societally disenchanted,) discovered they had numbers. And they set about claiming power. Civic disruption turned violent as the “movement” gained momentum. Eventually the power structure took note.
Watch the “tea-baggers” morph into an unruly movement headed by our own Sarah Palin and egged on/rallied by various Rushbeck O’Hannity demagogues.
Seriously, the ideological battle that’s shaping up between ill-understood verbage (”the horror of socialism”) and the economic reality of running a huge, diverse nation-in-ceisis is approaching a flash point. I can feel it. These folks are serious, and they’re getting organized–well organized. Already there are violent confrontations over the way the health care industry will be re-formed. But it’s not about healthcare, it’s about a visceral sense of loss of a way of life that never really existed.
Many of us felt the same when GW Bush was installed in the WH…but libs don’t punch people out so much. Yet.
Watch the “tea-baggers” morph into an unruly movement headed by our own Sarah Palin
I personally will not watch that.
Polly, look up “tea-bagging” please.
Polly, look up “tea-bagging” please.
The use of the phrase is intentional, methinks …
snort, lavi.
Good one.
Good one.
Hansen, I’m glad you enjoyed the joke.
Polly, sorry I mistook AHansen’s quote for yours.
Didn’t have to look it up. I am aware of the meaning that the tax protestors overlooked. Not a spectator sport.
I may be reading the wrong papers, but the only punching I saw in the latest round of “unruliness” was by a lib decking a guy handing out “Don’t Tread On Me” flags.
In some ways, I hope there is some sort of “flash point.” Something has to promote change. Protests are better than violence, and violence can be the next stage if the emotions don’t have somewhere to go.
I freely admit that despite living outside the physical Beltway, I am part of the DC structure now. I try to share the insight it gives me into how things work on the blog, but there is an insolation here. I don’t think my neighbors and I believe that it is possible for the food delivery system to fall apart here, though I imagine this fear is real in other places. Traffic is nasty, but there will be gasoline. The Metro breaks down, but it does get fixed. I think I was less sure of that when I lived in Brooklyn. Of course, back then, the issue didn’t come up.
I make sure I keep touch with friends who are not as comfortable as I am. I can hear their fear. But I have not heard anger yet. It maybe that in this place people know that defiance can get punished - try walking down Pennsylvania Ave when the Secret Service doesn’t want you there and you’ll know what I mean. But I guess I need to trust people further from this city to let me know if the potential for real protest is out there. Thanks for that.
But it’s not about healthcare, it’s about a visceral sense of loss of a way of life that never really existed.
That is such an incredibly insightful sentence.
I became aware of this about the time of Reagan (whom I liked). People pining for “the good old days”
At that time, TGOD was the 1950’s. You know, when white men ruled the earth and women were property and all other races “knew their places”.
I’ll take now*, thank you very much.
*Like you have a choice
These folks are serious, and they’re getting organized–well organized.
Yup! And many of them hide behind religion (thinking that makes it okay). The Christian Coalition should be very feared. Some journalist years ago put out a book on this subject, and I’ve been unable to find it (can’t recall the journalist, can’t find a book that rings a bell to me). The gist is that there was/is this silent group forming right under our noses that will become very dangerous if not stopped.
http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060560053/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1250055604&sr=8-1
Ha, You are so wrong. Nobody likes their freedom taken away even if it is done slow and easy, It must be done slow so people such as you won’t be able to tell.
Thanks for that Ahansen,
You expressed very well the thoughts I was trying to come to grips with. You especially hit the button with your comment about Bush’s ‘election’ through the Supreme Court. As a card carrying ACLU liberal, I was devastated by Bush winning the election. But as a card carrying ACLU liberal, I sucked up my gut and forged ahead, accepting the result with an acknowledgment that the rule of law wins and that as a US citizen I should accept the ruling of the court. There have been some really interesting studies (sorry, can’t cite references right now) that liberals and conservatives think differently, and at a very fundamental level. Liberals are more accepting of defeat and tend to empathize with their opponents. Conservatives on the other hand tend to be much more assertive that they are correct and have trouble placing themselves in others shoes. My personal experience tends to reinforce this view. We don’t punch people out. Maybe we better learn to do this. The health care ‘debate’ is so bogus and false that I have a very hard time understanding how people can claim the tings they are, with the ‘death panels’ et al. Come on, where are your brains? Do people really have so little mental capacity that they fall for this stuff? As a liberal, with my intrinsic thought patterns, I find it difficult to believe people actually believe this sh*t, but they are buying it. It is really amazing to see the abrogation of self interest some of this stuff requires. People on Medicare protesting that the government should not take over Medicare? WTF? Amazing. Health care in this country is totally fuc*ed, and I speak from experience, having recently returned for New Zealand. Break you leg? no problem. All the stories I see about how socialized medicine is awful are wrong. I am gainfully employed and have medical insurance through work, but you know what, it sucks. I saw my eye doctor earlier this year. I called the insurance company (Blue Cross) before making my appointment, because I wanted to make sure it wasn’t going to cost an arm and a leg; $20 co pay they said. Okay, made the visit, but there was a $120 facilities charge that I hadn’t been told about. Let’s see, with a $500 deductible, where does that leave me? This whole system is really screwed. I am amazed that big business has not gotten into the debate on the side of universal health care. Think of the savings for a business like Ford if they could drop their health car coverage. I read several years ago that Toyota built a new production plant in Canada because of the Canadian health care system; it was cheaper to go to Canada than to Tennessee.
So, an old liberal feels that it is time to start punching people out.
“The protests of the past happened because people needed to know that others shared their ideas and getting together in one place was the best way to do that. Now, all you have to do is find a companionable group on the internet, and there is no need to travel all that way and find a place to sleep.”
I have to disagree. Protests of the past were given a life of their own through the MSM which wanted to shape public opinion. Example: I was a student at San Diego State College in the ‘68-71 time frame. The organization,SDS (students for a Democratic Society) called the local MSM and said there would be a protest against the Viet-nam war and that they would take down the flag. Five minutes before the event a groupe of Vet’s unknown to each other just appeared before the flag pole, making a semicircle around it, and said that this flag was not coming down. The MSM waited for something to happen and when the SDS crowd walked off the news media picked up their cameras and walked off too. I heard them say ‘there is no story here’. That day I lost all respect for the MSM. I was one of those Vets.
Ron,
Great story. And from what I can tell, the rage over the HC debate ‘is’ genuine ( if not a little whacky ) I just think it’s something people are really passionate about. There needn’t be any vast conspiracy involved.
And I for one wouldn’t mind if I never heard the term tea-baggers again. There’s ‘another’ new low in politics that we shouldn’t be repeating.
I just think it’s something people are really passionate about. There needn’t be any vast conspiracy involved.
It’s always a conspiracy when a group of people oppose something you favor.
tresho,
I just think people have ‘done the math’ and come to realize that if free HC is offered, it’s another strong disincentive to even bother working at all?
Look at how many guys have wives that work solely to get company sponsored HC packages? Mostly people in my age group, 50+. What’s more is that by having my wife -quit- her job ( I guess she wouldn’t even have to hope and pray or throw her hat in the ring ) we would not only get free HC, we’d also cut our tax bill in HALF!
She ( like a lot of people ) would much rather spend their time w/ grandchildren, and if given -half- an opportunity would likely take it. I mean, what’s the point of her working?
‘…the rage over the HC debate ‘is’ genuine ( if not a little whacky ) I just think it’s something people are really passionate about….”
Ha, after these “hysteria” antics at the town hall meetings… I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to label Rash Limpbaugh’s “young repubican” fanatics as the “TrueDeciever’s™” ….they look like 1st cousins of the Florida “s-election” recount….everything else… (regarding fanatics)… will be lumped into the “TrueBeliever’s™” file
Where was the “TrueDeciever’s™” organized outrage when Cheney-Shrub made a “deposit” known as “The party of FISCAL CONSERVATISM” into the Treasury outhouse?
Now ‘that’ is whacky. Do you stay up late nights practicing how shoehorn “eight years” into as tightly a compacted paragraph as possible?
Or after all this time does it just come naturally?
I think 50 hits the bong first thing every morning.
In Montana,
Well, probably not the ( only ) person that instantly goes into “The 2000 S-election Mode” when things aren’t going their way?
Be it in person, over the phone or on a blog, it just gets old.
It is still relevant.
Cause this mess just didn’t happen in the last year.
So, boring as it is to you, for some reason it needs to be brought up again cause some folks have very short selective memories.
The term “Tea-baggers” like “hippies,” is a media invention that’s gone definitive. It encompasses a lot of different groups and beliefs- from Paulists, to Palinists, to unaffiliated rads like me. I am a tea-bagger. (Although I prefer to use a strainer, actually.)
I was also a Student for a Democratic Society (before the weathermen moved in,) back when Angela Davis and Herbert Marcuse were playing the media in San Diego. In the incident you mentioned, an unaffiliated group of gung-ho vets confronted the campus-based VVAW (who had obtained a permit to demonstrate,) and eventually ran them off–with the help of the campus police(!) The media didn’t get the story they came for, (flag stomping was the big bugaboo that season,) but the confrontations were repeated ad nauseaum for the better part of the next half-decade.
The divisiveness of that time, based so often on unreasoned, knee-jerk ideology, was heartbreaking to me. We were all Americans who wanted the best for our country and our people.
Then, as now, I’ve tried to translate so we can come to some mutually beneficial solutions to the many challenges we’re facing. Out of respect for you, Ron, I’ll use the words “bail-out protester” and “skilled fellatrix” instead of “tea-bagger” from now on. Pax.
not to mention its naughty connotation- oops! I just did.
I was also a Student for a Democratic Society (before the weathermen moved in,)
Ahansen, my pal in nyc lived next door. When I would stop by, I always wondered why one “brownstone” looked so modern, when all the other brownstones looked typical.
Years later, I read or saw something and the AHA moment happened. Glad I wasn’t there a few years earlier. eeeek.
I’ve been involved in a few work related protests. The first thing a union does is contact the media.
I do recall the boys signing up for draft and the fear. Many of them went, others got education deferments, and some went to Canada or other countries. I know of some who before they got drafted they chose the least ‘dangerous’ of all the branches and jobs within those branches. It was out of fear. When they came back, some were protestors.
Thanks for bringing up the DRAFT, which was the main driver of the Vietnam-era protests. I believe that’s why all the protest over Iraq looked so feeble by comparison. However, in the case of Iraq, the populus did manage to Elect The Other Guy, which never happened in the Vietnam case (no Gene McCarthy, for instance).
Now, however, the Other Guy thinks he has a mandate to do a lot of things that “swing” vote wasn’t really after.
Well majority of vote.. vs 2000 and just a few votes+ supremes intervention.
yeah this guy has a nutzy agenda
unlike the guy before WAR WAR
steal for MY guys.
Perfect.
None of you seem to have had a problem with his term DURING his term. So why the worry now? You can’t do anything about it.
Corporations OWN congress.
Have since the early 80s.
1. How do we as a society change to respect things like thriftiness, good-parenting, humility, and kindness instead of making money, driving big cars, & plastic boobs? The first items do not create material wealth & therefore the concentration of advertising dollars. The second do. So I think you are fighting a losing battle.
2. I also think your “too much productivity” theory is inaccurate. The real problem is the divorce of productivity improvements from wage gains. Wages should increase to absorb the new production but cannot because of wildly destructive trade imbalances created by Asian countries pegging their currencies to the dollar. This has lead to a concentration of wealth that cannot be spent on consumption, but is used instead to over-inflate assets.
Like vicever says above, there is nothing wrong in wanting a house. But when you can’t compete for one because asset prices have exploded beyond your consumptive power, you are simply left out of the market.
The real problem is the divorce of productivity improvements from wage gains.
Ding, ding, ding, ding!
We have a winner!
double ding ding.
Serious trade imbalances against the US.
I was thinking the same. And I also thought that’s what vicever was trying to communicate.
Regarding #2, you left out the fact that the wage lag/decline was backstopped by cheap credit. Exactly how the banking elite envisioned the wage slavery machine when they rolled out their dream in 1980.
“…But when you can’t compete for one because asset prices have exploded beyond your consumptive power, you are simply left out of the market.”
Until the cost of maintaining that over-supply becomes onerous –at which point, barring artificial intervention, the price comes down to “affordable” levels. Otherwise nothing gets sold and everyone goes out of business. There’s a huge global shake-up taking place. It’s going to be fascinating seeing what (and who) remains when the dust settles.
There are also significant demographic issues at play here in America. Consumerist Boomers are a fading market and non-producing Boomers are retiring and cutting way back on spending. When all their assets are sold to pay for assisted living expenses, even MORE housing (for example,) will come on the market– to a much smaller domestic buyer pool.
That having been said, I don’t believe that kindness, thrift, good-parenting, humility, and making money are necessarily mutually exclusive. I’ve even known some very nice people who wear plastic boobies or eat Viagra. And some humble, thrifty ones who are dreadful aholes.
I’ve even known some very nice people who wear plastic boobies or eat Viagra.
And some humble, thrifty ones who are dreadful aholes.HA HA
“Like vicever says above, there is nothing wrong in wanting a house. But when you can’t compete for one because asset prices have exploded beyond your consumptive power, you are simply left out of the market.”
But that IS the goal. To force people out of the market for things they can afford and instead get them into debt. The less people can afford, they more they need debt, and the more the parasite classes grows. If they had their way, we’d be buying out food on 20-year loan plans with 40% interest!
I don’t see things changing for the better until people stop identifying with the parasite class - thinking that “someday” if they kiss enough rear they (or their children) can be invited into the gold-plated world of Goldman Sachs and its kind - and start holding these clowns responsible for the destruction they have caused for their own profits. You can’t fix a society until people stop worshipping the very mindset that creates the problems in question.
This actually fits very well with the “bonuses based on THIS quarters performance”. We all know that in the long run debts held by ever poorer citizens will not be repaid, but in the short term, with high fees etc, banks are pouring on the profit. By the time these debts go bad, all the bankers will have parachuted out with millions leaving the rest of us holding the bag, as if we had not learned a thing from the last 5 years at all!
+1
No one put a gun to our heads to get into debt. The best way to frustrate the debt mongers is to pay it off as fast as possible and save and live simple. Refuse to join the grotesque consumption bunch - the Hummers, McMansions, super-sized crowd.
One of my coworkers at a company I worked for a couple of years back once acknowledged they had got themselves in debt to cards to the tune of $40K - all while earning less than that a year. This individual indicated it was not big screen tv’s, vacations or posh clothes, but rather a child with a toochache. New tires to replace the bald ones on her aging car. A transmission etc… I think this is true for a lot more Americans that one might think. Obviously this person is heading to bankruptcy…
This individual indicated it was not big screen tv’s, vacations or posh clothes, but rather a child with a toochache. New tires to replace the bald ones on her aging car. A transmission etc… I tend to doubt stories like this. People edit their personal histories to suit their self-image. The individual may well have spent most of their cash on luxuries, making no provision for necessities,and then had to run up CC debt to pay for them. But they are strangely reluctant to say that.
“People edit their personal histories”
They certainly… DO Ollie!
Right, I was at a townhall years ago and HC came up. One career nurse said she knows -lots- of people w/ premium cable, several cell phones and luxury car payments but then they turn around and tell you:
“They can’t a-f-f-o-r-d health insurance!”
“…making no provision for necessities…”
Well put, tresho, very well put.
And coincidently this also explains why one sees the food stamp crowd often wearing expensive duds.
The cost of “w/ premium cable, several cell phones and luxury car payments” have been coming down year over year. But health care payment can be next biggest thing to your house payment. Therefore, it’s a resonable statement.
rentor,
Now ‘that’ is true and a step toward sober debate! To be fair to the gal that made the original statement, she intended that to apply over the course of her career.
And when I hear what some of my self-employed friends quote me for premiums, I just kind of buckle in the knees. $600, $700 a month! Although I have friends that just get catastrophic plans for major illnesses that are quite a bit cheaper and pay out-of-pocket for sniffles etc.
A Software Contractor friend of mine had cancer over 20 years ago which is now clear but can’t get a quote for less than a 1000 a month for catastrophic. Admittedly, he is in a minority but all of us are one doctor visit away from that minority.
He needs some form of health care reform to take place to allow him to get coverage .
rentor,
And I have absolutely no qualms w/ folks that fit that description being able to get some form of coverage. In fact I’ve said time and again, I think everyone should at least be able to get an annual physical and basic medication.
My problem enters in when it we create a system where it makes sense to just quit your job and ditch your ( now former ) employer and not have a care in the world as whether you are even taking care of yourself.
That’s the bigee for me. Yes, we ‘will’ provide you w/ insulin ( etc. ) but YOU have to show us regular improvement on your weight for us to continue treatment.
We need lower medical cost, no way around it. Insurance should be used like a pool of people who help each other on medical cost. Ultimately each and everyone pays the cost by themselves on average plus the cost of running the insurance. You can not expect pay less while the cost is high. Impractically, maybe we should think to educate more people to become medical doctors so they may have less salary(what a dreadful thought!), or lower the payment to those patient who are victim of medical error and eliminate payment won by lawyers to lower the insurance paid by medical doctors. All of these measure are very unlikely to be implemented, and they had evolved for hundreds years to became the system we have now. So no solution.
Well, there hasn’t been a solution up until now. I think we’re about to see something happen, not sure what?
One of the big problems is the practice of “defensive medicine”. They run all these “tests” on you ( largely to cover their own @$$ ) That ( 1) practice alone is enough to drive up costs.
Redundant paperwork and believe it or not, releasing people too SOON ( only having to RE-admit them ) from complications that arose unnecessarily.
Corporate hdq just told us that they want to increase out insurance coverage 3x making my monthly over 1000.oo and that is supposed to be a “deal” for working for a major corporation. BS. CEO/mgmnt scum still getting their huge bonuses through next year 2001-2010 +++
Tort reform = lower medical costs
Not one mention of this from Washington.
We tried that in Texas. Prices went up.
There are 2 main factors in the cost of medicine right now - the insurance middlemen and the entire medical system needing to upgrade to modern tech that improves quality of care and cuts waste.
Examples: Bar codes on all medicine and readers at bedside. Up-to-date PCs. Faster testing equipment. Better computer networks. I know from first hand experience that far too many places have old and outdated equipment.
okay, what about if you lost your job, got massive pay reductions, had major health event, and so on?
How can you pay off those debts that accumulated?
And by the way, on another note, let the kids earn part /all of their college educations for petesake. I did, and so many others on this site. Why are folks going into debt to get jr into college?
desertdweller,
That’s kind of my point. You can stay where you’re at ( and fork over like a grand-a-month for your HC and hating life ) or… you can turn in your notice and get it for free!
( Then find casual work on the side and come out ahead )
Why do we want to incentivize that? Also a number of posters here have used College 529’s while others have pre-paid their tuition. I feel your rage, but my wife and I -knew- we’d be reaching the law of diminishing returns on HC in the very near future.
We also tinkered w/ the idea of getting our ‘own’ HC IRA, but their plan at work never quite “sucked enough” for it to make sense?
Those are extreme cases.
Life is not fair to everyone.
I could become a quadriplegic on my way home from work tonight.
That’s why 1) I saved at least six months worth of living expenses, 2) I buy my own disability income insurance and all the other typical insurances, and 3) I saved like crazy in various assets in case long term disability income insurance runs out before I die.
You are using an extreme what-if scenario and it’s a flaw in your argument. Look around you: If scenarios such as these were normal in the human race, we’d never have made any progress beyond discovering fire.
“You can’t fix a society until people stop worshipping the very mindset that creates the problems in question.”
Very true. I would also apply that to the music, movie and sports industries.
“I don’t see things changing for the better until people stop identifying with the parasite class - thinking that “someday” if they kiss enough rear they (or their children) can be invited into the gold-plated world of Goldman Sachs and its kind - and start holding these clowns responsible for the destruction they have caused for their own profits. You can’t fix a society until people stop worshipping the very mindset that creates the problems in question.”
Pondering, you are on fire.
“All the while, our unions, our executive oligarchy, and our governmental agencies, all fearful of losing their benefits and bonuses continue to expect the status quo to remain the status quo–insist upon it even. And the rest of us watch as our standard of living seeps away into the tax base, (or the offshore accounts of who-knows-whom,) along with our hopes for an even remotely dignified retirement.”
This is one of those polarizing issues where many truly would like to see a middle ground, but where middle ground becomes untenable over time.
I don’t believe that any group of politicians, beurocrats, or any “czar” or service union, will ever significantly help “me”. I expect and believe they will always try to “help themselves” to “my” taxes. I know that my pursuit of happiness and joy in life will have much more to do with my own actions, and the consequences thereof, than any government program. I know there are many who think like this as a group. They tend to think that elected officials and the government should “work for” and “answer to” them.
On the other hand there are those who firmly believe that there are certain gifted people who should be put in charge of confessing and redeeming the sins of their brothers and sisters. That there must always be a super-intelligent oligarchy to monitor the rest of the population and control them. I know there are many who also think like this as a group. They tend to think that people are “subjects” and should “do as they are told” by the State.
One group would probably cling to the notion that ceratain inalienable rights were endowed to them by their Creator.
The other group would probably mock anyone’s belief in a Creator and declare that any individual is ultimately the property of, and subservient to, the State.
I note with extreme interest that the current President has recently suggested that anyone who disagrees with his policies or proposed policies can “shut up” and “get out of the way”.
And that the current Speaker of the House suggests exercising you First Amendment rights of speech and assembly can make you a “terrorist”.
Watch now as any “middle ground” vanishes and
the collision of two incompatible ideologies plays out in a neighborhood and nation near you.
I don’t believe that any group of politicians, beurocrats, or any “czar” or service union, will ever significantly help “me”.
Government serves no function at all? Or is it only this government that serves no function at all?
Does that make you an anarchist? An anarcho-syndicalist? An anarcho-capitalist? A feudalist? It can’t be as simple as libertarian (the currently available style thereof, at least), given your statements above.
One group would probably cling to the notion that ceratain inalienable rights were endowed to them by their Creator.
The other group would probably mock anyone’s belief in a Creator and declare that any individual is ultimately the property of, and subservient to, the State.
Wow, I didn’t realize it was so easy to divide up all of America into such neat little categories.
Some atheists are communists
Some atheists support health care reform
therefore
All supporters of health care reform are communists?
Healthcare will never be better than it is today if you let a politician dictate health parameters. We will have a socialist party system and a private system clashing, and costs will go down? Not for me it won’t, I’ll end up paying a premium for good health care on top of the additional taxes I incure for the Obamacare. I quess it will be much like the French health care system where people need to fork out thousands to supplement the poor health care they get for free.
I’m a conservative/libertarian atheist, so I don’t fit in anywhere. ;(
You can hang out with me, Dennis. I like weirdoes. Bring beer.
“I know that my pursuit of happiness and joy in life will have much more to do with my own actions, and the consequences thereof, than any government program.”
Amen. That is the message that should be repeated over and over and over again. Make signs and hang them on your kids walls, put it over your desk at work, put it on your car visor.
“I know that my pursuit of happiness and joy in life will have much more to do with my own actions, and the consequences thereof, than any government program.”
SOoooooooooooooooooooooo, what about the Gov’t program in the 60’s & 70’s called: The Draft?
Are you going to “obey” the Law of the land and be happy?
“…The other group would probably mock anyone’s belief in a Creator and declare that any individual is ultimately the property of, and subservient to, the State.”
That is an ideologically untenable statement.
The rest of your post is right on. (Except the quotes part– where you neglect to mention the context in which they were made.)
no….service union, will ever significantly help “me”
By the way, yes some do. Some have saved many lives. So when they see you in the future, should they just skip over you?
Pfffft.
I am for pure capitalism and I think it’s not inconsistent for me to also enjoy living a simple life and low debt.
Not everyone wants to own more than one house and more than one car. There are many people (of all ages) who pride themselves of owning one economy car and driving it into the ground.
Personally I’m in the wrong place to live simply. So much pressure to be loud, fake, and grotesque in the beach area of Los Angeles.
Efficiency should be something to work toward. After all, capitalism is regarded as much more efficient than any planned economy. How about “personal efficiency?” Recycling, walking instead of driving? Living under a smaller roof instead of in a large structure where you hear your own echo? Simple living is a more liberating freedom than accumulating.
Hey there, BiLA. I believe in accumulating, simply. Pay cash and buy quality to begin with, then maintain it, preferably myself–which in my case sort of mandates simplicity. Elegance– in thought and design– is underrated in this country, I think.
I agree with you that sunny beach towns are indeed a bizarre sideshow; but sooo full of pretty things to play with. Enjoy it while you may, for Bland, alas, is ubiquitous.
“Personally I’m in the wrong place to live simply. So much pressure to be loud, fake, and grotesque in the beach area of Los Angeles.”
Ya know all those years surfin’ and hangin’ out with kids along the California coast…I never once saw any Amish…it’s their beach too.
“Not everyone wants…”
Alone they might not look like much, but taken together these are three very powerful words!
So much of what we are now witnessing on the part of our gov’t is predicated on the assumption that “everyone wants”. Does the gov’t take power - or is it given to them? (in exchange for shiny things)
Corporations blind and bedazzle congress with “shiny things” so as to get all their corporate Wants accomplished to the ultimate goal of getting it all at all cost.
“So much of what we are now witnessing on the part of our gov’t is predicated on the assumption that “everyone wants”. Does the gov’t take power - or is it given to them? (in exchange for shiny things)”
Thomas Jefferson:
“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”
According to our guy Tom, that democracy thingie’s working as planned.
I always liked the line “democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for lunch.”
“Maybe we need to have a national clearance sale for our souls and take that 20% off what we’ve come to believe is our rightful inheritance.”
Make it 60% for the Boomers
LOL, Muggs.
We’ll be very lucky if we only lose 60% of what we were “expecting.” Mortality was something most of us never considered.
Mortality was something most of us never considered.
Ah, mortality. What a pain in the ass.
My current theory is that I’m immortal. As long as I live, no one will disprove it.
My current theory is that I’m immortal. Everyone is immortal, until they aren’t.
I myself am striving for immortality too. So far, so good.
I’m striving for immorality- it’s much easier!
People are mortal, mortgages need not be.
Since this August marks the 40th Anniversary for Woodstock I’ll split the difference w/ you? You know, just in caring, sharing spirit.
Don’t even get me started. My FIL was there and never shuts up about it. He ran around naked, high as hell, and now is a hypocritical tightwad.
The good news? His daughter is cool.
naked. eww
naked. eww
Naked father-in-law … eewwww times infinity.
I do have to say ahansen (not sniping, I promise), the Boomers do have difficulty aging. I would give up the internet, iPods, and H2s to have free love, some hallucinogens, and Hendrix AND still get a phat job.
You gotta admit y’all had one helluva party and mostly avoided the hangover… until now, of course.
Oh come on Muggy, I didn’t have that hell of a party, neither did my parents, relatives or friends.
WOW Ben, You’re starting to sound like James Kunzler (without the biting sarcasm).
It’s a good thing.
I think that a lot of people are starting to “get it” and it’s a trend that I like to encourage whenever I see it.
Unfortunately there are some strong contravening trends of “ME First-ism” and fundementalist nuttery of all stripes. We’ll see what wins out. Fortunately, American history gives us cause to be hopefull. The only question is, are we still those sorts of Americans?
“I think that a lot of people are starting to “get it” ”
Maybe on this blog but very few in the real world. The people in charge probably “get it” but they have zero incentive to change course. They got us right where they want us. The overwhelming effort is put into sustaining the unsustainable through various stimulus and bailout schemes. Some are designed to keep the masses calm, the others are designed to further loot this economy and enrich the ruling elites. Once this Ponzi scheme collapses they got their’s, to hell with J6P.
“…are we still those sorts of Americans?”
No, we’ve become fat, lazy and dumb. Things will have to get much, much worse before people will wake up. By the time they wake up they won’t know what to do anyway. Chances are they’ll follow some sinister demagogue. History is full of similar examples. The upper crust that runs this country (bankers, politicians, big business in general) has no interest in the people waking up.
“It is the good fortune of leaders that people are gnerally ignorant”
It was Hitler who made this timeless observation. It was true then and it is true today.
They got us right where they want us.
Corporations have congress right where they want em, therefore us.
And have since the early 80s.
There is nothing to get congress to want to change 30+ yrs of being paid off for changing laws to suit corporations and not Americans or protecting our shores for trade.
I do believe what you say about the possibility of 1960s style unrest may be true. The U.S. is not Rwanda or Yugoslavia, but unrest on the 1960s level is certainly possible if things keep going.
Heck, outrage is growing among some people about executive bonuses, among others about public employee pensions, as the broader standard of living declines. They can’t keep pointing the finger at each other forever: plenty here are outraged at both.
The question is what form will it take? As had been discussed previously, the alpha dog 1960s generation felt free to rebel, drop out and start something new, or just grab all it could. The “stagflation” back end of the baby boom (my crowd) and Gen X pretty much settled into apathy and navel gazing, even as the system was rotting out from under them. Now what?
Anyone want to bet on peace and love? Last time it lasted one year (1967).
unrest on the 1960s level is certainly possible
Again my question is, unrest to what end? What kind of reforms do we want to see going forward?
That’s the thing. Who knows where it would go. As for government, will people just demand less taxes and more spending? That’s what’s gotten us into this mess.
Obama = Gorbachev? Will we end up with a Putin?
start with congress, congress of 30 yrs worth, and then now congress.
The historic answer is less a 60’s style people-power revolt than a populist/nationalist revolt that brings to power a strong-man who can ‘get things done’. These strong-men lead us into a huge war, which destroys everything, and we enter into a new period of prosperity by rebuilding it all.
The motivating factor for unrest was the draft. When that ended, so did the party.
Right arm, Montana.
i disagree.. the motivating factor for unrest was the micromanagement of the war by politicians in DC. The result was a war that was fought with one hand tied behind our backs. The result of that was a prolonged war and, by inference, a prolonged draft.
A significant sub-factor was America’s intellectual elitist communists being given a large voice in the MSM.
The motivating factor for unrest was the draft. When that ended, so did the party.
…the motivating factor for unrest was the micromanagement of the war by politicians in DC.
I seem to remember the “unrest” being characterized by:
“Hell no, we won’t go!”
not
“Fight, fight, do it right!”
hell no we won’t go..
well.. nobody in his right mind is anxious to jump into a meat grinder.. into a war we couldn’t win despite immeasurable military superiority, the “proof” of which was hammered into us on Network TV every night at dinner time.
joey,
Well said. However, that is w/ the benefit of several decades of hindsight. I totally agree, and another issue was b/c… it was so unpopular, only casualties were replaced.
Hence, “the freaking new guy” syndrome. We’ve since learned to replace in units. Guys that went to boot camp/school together. But you’re absolutely right.
How are you, GI Joe? It seems to me that most of you are poorly informed about the going of the war, to say nothing about a correct explanation of your presence over here. Nothing is more confused than to be ordered into a war to die or to be maimed for life without the faintest idea of what’s going on.
(Hanoi Hannah, 1967)
——
And it’s one, two, three,
What are we fighting for?
Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it’s five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain’t no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we’re all gonna die.
(Country Joe and the Fish, 1967)
——-
To add some variety, Hanna might read articles from US magazines and newspapers..
America’s intellectual elitist communists
Chicago school. Milton Friedman etc, Alan Greenspan and so forth.
By the way, the major monopoly msm owners are all right wing conservative.
The easiest and most pleasant solution to our increasing efficiency/less need for workers conundrum, is for everyone to work shorter hours and take more vacations. We could be like those stupid euros we like to make fun of- sitting in a vacation beach villa for 8 weeks a year. You now, enjoy life a little, like the morons. (and the sloths!)
It’s about priorities I suppose. For some us free time/vacations are a priority, while for others it’s possessions and status.
My beef is when the latter crowd ruins it for the former by playing right into the hands of the debt pushers.
Where the hell does this debt pusher crap come from?
You go begging for someone to please lend you money for something you want to buy, and then claim it’s pushed on you?
oh.. now i remember.. Things change when you don’t want to repay the debt … when you see that the thing you bought wasn’t worth it… when you realize you’d rather have something else.
Evil, wicked lenders!
See, joey? You need a vacation. You’re full of negative vibes.
joey, edge isn’t the problem, nor was his post.
I don’t think you understand his post.
“you keep saying that word,I do not think it means what you think it means” PrincessBride.
i understand the post fine.. it was the term “debt pusher” i objected to.
Is the grocery store a nourishment pusher? Is Barnes and Noble a knowledge pusher?
No they are all corporations. Corporate owned and slanted to market to ‘us’ to buy psychologically.
Still think you misunderstood.
slanted to market to ‘us’ to buy psychologically..
as if any other industry doesn’t do the same..?
you need these sneakers.. you are worthless unless you buy this brand of shoe. Your friends will laugh at you behind your back. Go tell mom to give you $250. Write a letter Santa as a back-up.
You’ll shoot your eye out, kid!
Ah, but joey, you’re inferring (and limiting) debt pusher to mean strictly banks/lenders.
My definition is of debt pusher is very broad and it can include everyone from the gov’t to someone’s neighbors or friends.
Example: over the past decade I have watched several friends’ parents repeatedly exhort them to take on the biggest mortgage they could possibly afford. In such cases the parents are the debt pushers.
maybe we just view debt differently..
I think of borrowed money as a tool you need but cannot afford (or don’t want to buy). You rent it for a time to accomplish whatever your purpose is. Of course you pay a rental fee to use other people’s money.
Renting money is not so unlike renting a home or car… at least there are similarities.
You need a place to sleep, cannot afford to buy one (or have other reason not to buy) and pay a fee for the use of other people’s property.
In any case, return the other person’s property and you are free to move on. How well the use of that property accomplished your goals is not decided by the lender/landlord. It’s utility and whatever was gained by it’s use was entirely up to you.
I’d be thankful when someone’s property was available for my use if i needed that property. Without it, I couldn’t accomplish my goals, and can’t understand demeaning whoever lends it to me..
—-
As for those parents, you do say they push the biggest affordable mortgage. Affordablility is everything. The debt can and will be repaid.
I often buy the most and best I can “afford”.. according to my priorities, of course. It’s not a bad philosophy in general, especially if you’re a kid who’s maturing and who’s income and standard of living will likely improve with time.
Hey sloth,
Back in another lifetime when I was studying behavioral science and sociology, (early ’70’s) it was proposed that in the near future having a job would be a luxury, and that it would be in societies’ best interests to simply provide all citizens with an annual stipend–whether or not they worked. Thus assured of survival, they would be free to produce and create–or find a job and make more money if they were so inclined. Competition for jobs would not be so intense, and those who wanted one would more likely find one that suited them. (Or so went the idea.)
A radical idea at the time, Singapore (for one,) managed to incorporate it into a national economic policy to good effect. I just took it as an excellent rationalization for not buying into the work ethic. Who was I to take the away the luxury of someone who needed it?
You may like a book called Voyage from Yesteryear. A sci-fi book by James P. Hogan.
I highly recommend it.
That’s one I missed. I’ll have to look for it.
Actually that book had a major impact on me. I won’t spoil it for anyone who did not read it. But it did not require a stipend to everyone. Rather, technology made money obsolete and people were paid in the form of how significant they were to society (not how “famous” they were). Such a payment is not taxable. There was no government, no need for authority.
Is the ending sort of like the Titanic?
Don’t spoil the ending to that one.
Umm…(embarrassed)…I did not read the Titanic. The ending in V.F.Y. is a good ending. Good guys win. That’s always the type of book I enjoy.
I was surprised to discover in college that most literature that was heralded had either mediocre endings or sad endings. I then wondered about the core mindset of a person who enjoys tragic endings. They must hate living.
Send in the robots. I’m ready for some R&R. But does the PTB trust us with time…to think?
Are the workers of the world united? Maybe American & Western European workers are on the same page. Many global companies have workers in Europe & USA who have similar outlooks about work and life. Global companues have setup operations based on market opportunity in repsective countries.
But when you go to places like India & China things change rapidly. American workers realise markets don’t exist in 3rd world countries to justify size of operation of most global companies. The only way to remedy this is to tax all communication going outside USA.
yeah.. tax the hell out of everything.
Taxes mold behavior, right? We could construct the perfect world if we just tax everything properly.
“tresho:My current theory is that I’m immortal. Everyone is immortal, until they aren’t.”
Watched a history channel show taking place somewhere in Asian region. They came upon a human skull with some writing on it that went something like this: “Pilgrim, look well for once I was like you and you soon will be”
I was intrigued by the beginning of your last paragraph:
“Maybe we need to have a national clearance sale for our souls”…
I had wondered about that last Fall and wrote this up in December:
Soul Survivor?
“I didn’t compromise my soul to be a popular guy.” – President George W. Bush, FOX News, December 17, 2008
The President’s remark sent soul futures plummeting on the Integrity markets today as doubt was cast on for what, exactly, the President actually did compromise his soul. The shocking possibility that soul equity has fallen, even in the highest levels of government, spread fear that the market is heavily oversouled. “If not for popularity, then what? Political capital?” asked one spooked integrity investor.
The president’s recent admission, after 8 years of promoting the Administration’s official policy of Lack of Integrity Equaling Satan’s (LIES), has finally exposed the fact that numerous integrity investors, who thought that “soul prices never go down,” are facing a hard, new reality in this environment of rampant soul defaults. Many SOLs (Souled-Out Losers) are so overleveraged that their souls have lost all value; they are now completely soulless.
Of course, several high-level Administration officials, including Vice-President Dick Cheney, were assumed to have cashed in their souls long ago, some as early as the Reagan Administration. Some, it is speculated, never had Souls in the first place, yet nonetheless were able to profit by the notorious practice of “Short-Souling”, in effect betting against the integrity markets, waiting for the soul bubble to burst. However, some who held on to these Short-Soul Securities (SSS) too long were surprised at the massive government sellouts that have forced them into moral marginality calls, facing a Lack Of Substantial Soul Equity Savings (LOSSES).
Many investors had fled to the perceived safety of the integrity markets during the current economic crisis. Souls were bought at inflated prices in recent months, then re-packaged and floated as Soul-Backed Securities (SBS) with AAA (Absolutely Asinine Assumption) ratings from Moody’s and Standard & Poor’s. Leveraging them again into Collateralized Soul Obligations (CSOs) and then again into Collateralized Soul Swaps (CSS) only exacerbated the issue of the growing, unsustainable spread in the critical Soul/Integrity Ratio (SIR), leading to the inevitable soul bubble.
Furthermore, during the recent hysteria, many investors took out Soul Equity Lines Of Credit (SELOCs) based on the inflated values of the SBS they purchased, and, with this drop in soul prices, now owe more than their souls are worth. These SOLs are quickly falling behind in their moral obligations (MO’s) and are facing mass foreclosure on their souls by Sannie Mae (Satanic Agencies Needlessly Nourishing Integrity Expectations Manufacturing Amoral Equity ), the HSE (Hell-Sponsored Entity) responsible for guaranteeing the SBS. Due to final reckoning irregularities, Sannie Mae has been the recipient of several massive government sellouts, in effect throwing “good souls after bad” in an attempt to save their own worthless souls, which lie abandoned all over America. “We can’t sell these souls at any price,” lamented one formerly high-flying SSS broker.
“All the while, our unions, our executive oligarchy, and our governmental agencies, all fearful of losing their benefits and bonuses continue to expect the status quo to remain the status quo–insist upon it even. And the rest of us watch as our standard of living seeps away into the tax base, (or the offshore accounts of who-knows-whom,) along with our hopes for an even remotely dignified retirement.”
First off there are other unions besides the big ones. 2nd I haven’t seen any bonuses just reductions 2003 that was -35% and that brought me right back to 1983 rates of pay. By the way, we had finally won a fair contract the day after 9/11. The contract was being “phased in” so we hadn’t seen but 3% of our increase in pay.
However the Ceo and his posse mob keep getting bonus after bonus,year after year through next year. Corporate.
The BIG PROBLEM is that corporations have PERSONHOOD thereby giving them rights as you and I have, not as corporations and businesses. And the BIG LOOMING problem is that chief justice john I love all corporations Roberts is going to pass a case this early fall that will allow all corporations to have all rights over us. Mark my words. Unless we get on this one as a Group, there will be no ‘vietnam era’ rage. It will be a done deal. Right now, folks are getting incorrect information and fighting mad about what they think they know. The BOOGEYMAN is Corporations having all the rights. Mark my word.
It won’t matter that we have over productive workers and supply as we do now, as we are all aware and post about, something really big is coming and I think it is the case that is being passed this fall by the Supreme court.
The boogeyman is CORPORATE. They OWN the gov. Gov isn’t the Big boogeyman or problem-it does have its problems, but I believe they stem from being owned by corporations telling them what to do and how high to jump.
I really like your post Ahansen. Keep Writing!
Some of the most polished and fascinating people I know are architects. Do it!
Thank you Ahansen. I really appreciate that! And I will as there are alot of years ahead..
Yes, it does encompass so must history, art and nature!
Slim, Joelawyer,SFogal..ahansen. thanks. Re: architect edu.
Point taken, not much $$ but satisfaction and creativity, as well as urban planning etc.
I took a class as a lark(6 yrs ago) and discovered I really loved it. I really liked building the models. Who knew?
i took some drafting and did very well.. offhandedly investigated a career in architecture but became a little disenchanted with the way the system works.
The upper echelon is not different from the art world where the acceptance of one’s work depended on the current vogue, and a group of professional critics’ decide your work’s worth and fate.
But that’s no reason not to pursue it as far as the road might extend for you. Do it.
Joey that sure is right. I hope I can just stay with what pleases me. Isn’t it the same for scientists and professors to get ‘published’ and then you are ’something’.
nike- just do it!
Anything can happen. Maybe some connected mucky-muck will fall in love with your work and, next thing you know, you’re a Star.. chosen to design symphony halls.. universities.. civic centers.. and most importantly, Vegas casinos..
Or design smarter, ‘greener’ houses. There’s a lot of different uses for an ARC degree. You don’t have to design avant garde stadiums and skyscrapers.
Why does Monsanto come to mind here?
The majority of American households, from wealthy and extending deeply into the “poor” category, own stock in corporations.
By that risky commitment, whatever happens in the economy may affect everyone but has an immediate, monetary impact on that majority.
This is an example of an ownership society. The majority actually owns part of it. They have a dog in the fight. They must care what happens more than on some ideological level, and their judgment has to be more thoughtful and sensible.
It seems natural enough that those with money also have political power. I can’t think of any instance in the history of mankind where such is not the case. All societies are controlled by that part which has or controls the flow of money.
We own corporations and corporations own the government… so where’s the beef?
“We” do not own corporations unless “we” individually own millions of shares.
Most of “us” own thousands of shares. The other shares we own via institutional means (pension plans, etc.) do have some power, but we, personally, have no/very little control over those who manage the investments.
desertdweller …..I just see that the Corporations and Wall Street
took over America . These entities ,along with their bought off Politicians, could care less about Main Street America . Currently ,Big Business wants the government (taxpayers )to pay for the aftermath of their greedy unregulated folly and lack of trade balances and job loss and manufacturing loss in America ,and the health care cost for low wage immigrants .
Think of how silly the economic system became . China broke our economic system by selling us cheap goods which created a monopoly ,and people from here and all over the World funneled money into the Stock Market ,which handed out
easy money ,so we Americans could buy goods by debt and leverage from bogus real estate prices. In the meantime we lost much of our own manufacturing and jobs ,along with all the outsourcing . Who would design such a system ?
CEO wages /stock options was just a symptom of the the terrible economic system that had emerged that was clearly a Ponzi-Scheme and a rigged game . Maybe after the game got going it developed a life of its own ,but the game began with wage and manufacturing competition from foreign lands .
Now we have to answer to China because we depend on them for this
strange business partnership that developed ,with a Communist Country no less, that sends us toxic crap that I don’t have any faith is inspected (just like loans ).
People like money and people like to buy products and people like ‘
to get the material comforts in life and when your younger you like to
taste life and buy toys and all that jazz,and peer pressure is very strong . People like security and people like luxuries ,and most people like to have health care .Some people are smart enough to see that they don’t need as much as they thought to be comfortable and
happy .
I always thought that America was founded on the concept of the
Citizens choosing the lifestyle they wanted and was willing to work for
without paying for other peoples choices ,or paying for chosen ones that Politicians want to enrich .
Yes, we need Health Care reform ,because the system is corrupt and
the all mighty evil greed dollar is behind it all . The Private insurance Companies have gone to far in what profits they think they should
have ,as well as the medical cost themselves ,as well as the Insurance Companies that insure the Doctors when they know that only 15% of the cases are even won because they all cover each others ass anyway .The waste and fraud in the system is also a major concern regarding
the lowering of costs . Its just not right that in order to get a reasonable Health Care Insurance Policy a average family of 4 has to
hand over a thousand a month ,which is 25% of the average salary .
Yes!…+1
“…Its just not right that in order to get a reasonable Health Care Insurance Policy a average family of 4 has to hand over a thousand a month, which is 25% of the average salary.”
Here are some questions to ponder:
Is there anyone under 30..25… who posts on this board?
Do you think the kids today are smart…or basically clueless?
With all the info online I would have thought we’d see lots of 20 somethings on all the news shows at least protesting or standing up for a better America. Or explaining what the heck happened in this meltdown
Did any bands come out against the Iraq war? Or are there any Goldman Sachs up against the wall MotherF888r type songs?
Ok dixie chicks and rage against the machine…but who else?
I don’t hear protest, I hear whining geeky white boys and little chicky-poo girlies. Where is all that money spent on their education?
I do see people using social media to generate some business.
“Is there anyone under 30″
I was 27 when I started at Patrick, 28 here. I was skeptical of housing as early as 2001, when I looked at a 1br. in Hoboken for $220k — total piece of chit. I did the math and my rent ($900) was WAY cheaper. Shortly thereafter 9/11 happened and I knew I would never settle in greater NYC.
By the way, if you have access to whatever software lawyers use, check out Cardozo et. al. V. Peleaz… we didn’t win, but I was the lead on going after a slumlord and damn near set a precedent. The city actually paid $ to tenants who were evicted after a building (Clam Broth House) nearly collapsed. I was all over them: the city, the owner, lawyers… you name it. I have no fear with that crap. That was exciting and scary for a young guy.
Man, I got stories, but let me tell you, I rattled some corrupt cages in Hoboken. I’m happy to be alive. So in short, don’t count out the young-ins!
I’ve been putting my foot in housing’s ass since 2000
Muggy, are you safe in FL, cause obviously NJ is off limits ala goodfellas.
I would love to hear those stories.
Everyone?!
yeah.. why not.. let muggy write a column.. change names, places and dates to protect the.. well, to protect Muggy.
Cool muggy, I’ll check out the case .
But seriously how many people in their 20’s had that thought?
. I did the math and my rent ($900) was WAY cheaper.
Plus with all the great technology in music software shouldn’t we have a few Mozarts, or at least a 2009 version of the Beatles/stones/Aretha/Jackson around somewhere? ……. what Coldplay, Beyonce, Jay-Z ?
When I was 25 I was an idiot who thought I knew everything.
Maybe today’s kids are smart enough to shut up, and will be heard from later.
Or maybe they really are dumb and with get even dumber later….
A newborn is totally ignorant.
By age 6, due to their innocent honesty and open mindedness, they are as wise as Buddha but are somewhat lacking in worldly knowledge.
Knowledge and wisdom rapidly diminish and is at a lifetime low at around 20 years old…
Then intelligence slowly builds till the early 30’s after which things remain pretty flat for a couple decades.
50 and above is the intellectual prime.. it’s when the untapped power afforded by all the knowledge and lessons you’ve absorbed in life can be leveraged and directed through patience and will power.
I think a lot of people, young or old, are brainwashed . If you hear something enough on short sound bites you start to believe it . Why do you think they take polls all the time ? They take polls to try to figure out how to brainwash opposition . They act like displaying stats that 53% of the people believe this or that will convince people that the majority must be right . How many people have enough information to even make a intelligent decision about all these politics .
How much time do people have to think ,and how many Experts
are bought and paid for . I just don’t buy the argument that
people should learn to live on less if it means that the greedy pig rich gets richer because they brainwash people into
accepting less . The young people need good paying jobs and
I don’t care if somebody says that they can’t because a china worker is willing to work for a dollar a hour .
HW:
People have lots of time to think…but choose very badly.
How many people do you talk to that even know about this blog or patrick.net or even Huffpo versus those that know everything on Perez Hilton or TMZ?
Or how many men do you meet can rattle off college teams scores and stats yet don’t know a MEW makes their mortgage a recourse loan?
————————————————————
How much time do people have to think
You might be right ……its a choice not to think about certain subjects ,or do you homework ,or leave it up to the experts ,or the government .
“I think a lot of people, young or old, are brainwashed .”
Several churches in every neighborhood provides the means.
While churches have traditionally been the opiate of the masses, I would look at the strange glowing box that people stare at to be doing most of the programming.
does this blog need a title change? it seems less and less about the “housing bubble” and more and more about left wing ideology.
maybe “the people’s republic of ben jones” blog?
We’re waiting for 2012 at the earliest, Alvin.
Ben has a wide range. Today it’s “A National Clearance Sale For Our Souls”..
Tomorrow it might be ‘How to deal with guests who exhibit bad manners’.
LOL, Joey.
merci.
Alvin:
I don’t think most of us are left wing…unless left wing includes kicking out most of the Illegals so Americans can take over the jobs and help rebuild our country.
The absence of mindless unintelligible droning makes the HBB left wing?
I’ll take whatever adjective you assign.
It’s true this article doesn’t fit the template of the HBB.
Usually the main post is a compilation of housing bubble articles from a particular region, the ideological discussion occurs on the Bits Bucket, or in tangential threads on the main housing posts.
But who knows, the HBB could be evolving into a media source that will enjoy as much success as Air America.
It could happen.
I enjoyed your post this time. I do disagree a bit with this statement.
“If anything, the money currently being poured into propping up and bailing out inefficient industries and outmoded systems should be going into education, research, and development of new technologies and modalities to see us through the next century and beyond.”
How about the government slow down and live within its means by not spending the newly printed money at all.
f’n commie!
Ben-I think you hit on something important that I’ve pondered for years.
The concept that capitalism is the planets final economic system seems rather unlikely considering the history of changing economic systems, including feudalism, mercantilism, communism, socialism, whatever names you could give to other systems, i.e. slavery based, etc.
It seems technology has given us the means to keep increasing productivity, taken to its ultimate end, people will not be needed for production, or at least few people will be needed for production. When, or as (since its clearly an ongoing process), that happens the world needs a new distribution model. It seems just as likely that that distribution model will fall to some level of forced labor upon the few people needed for labor.
An Inconvenient Sun - Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuOnvlleiGY
ahansen,
Excellent post, as always.