Suzanne, Santa Or… Satan???
The opinions expressed in this GUEST POST are solely ahansen’s and do not necessarily reflect those of the owner, administration, or readership of thehousingbubbleblog.com
First a bit of business.
With all the grim news and hot weather of late, the conversation here at HBB has started to take on a rancor worthy of some rabid wrestlemania site. It’s great good fun to trumpet and bellow and thump our fists on our mighty (opinionated,) breasts; we all do it from time to time. But out of respect for Ben– and for the shell-pink ears of little old lady and gentleman readers like myself– let’s try to use our inside voices, shall we? At least until the next quarterly earnings reports come out. Then we can jeer and catcall to our hearts’ content.
That having been said, it’s high time to toss some red meat to the faithful.
The battle of the sexes is always good for a lively knockdown drag-out, so with today’s post, hows about we set aside our partisan differences and attack each other on the basis of our various genders instead?
SUZANNE. Santa or… SATAN???
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubsd-tWYmZw
Collusive real estate salespersons have always walked amongst us. But their reputation as handmaidens of Satan never really coalesced until “Suzanne” arrived on the scene during the heyday of the most recent real estate boom. The catchphrase, “Suzanne researched this” was intended to overcome that last desperate attempt of beleaguered spouses everywhere not to throw caution to the wind and “snap up” a “starter home.”
Whole legions of Suzannes, fresh out of Suzanne school were unleashed upon the American public –and we can all see the results of their conniving manipulations. Why, this whole mess is Suzanne’s fault.
But did we learn our lesson?
No we did not. The NAR is once again in full throat touting their time-tested mantra. “It’s a great time to buy.” “Call your professional (!) Real Tor today.” Alas, some of the homeowner-challenged among us are still listening–and responding to the siren call.
Granted, only an idiot or the abnormally solvent would take out a mortgage in this economic climate, but as several of us have noted, that doesn’t prevent our spouses from pining for a house of their own. And pining. And pining. We all know that it’s a losing proposition, a debt saddle, a millstone to mobility; but the biological imperative, that instinctual drive to find a safe place, settle in, and spawn a cadre of replicants, is not a force to be denied.
A home of our own, free from upheaval or the whims of greedy landlords is to the nesting female as a naked, pouting (insert favorite whack-avitar here) is to the horny male. It goes beyond mere beaconing, it’s a compelling attraction that overrides reason or consequence. The nesting instinct is hardwired into our genetics as a survival mechanism, and that’s all there is to it. It makes obsession look like ennui, and addiction look like a breezy flirtation.
But so again, is the instinct for self-preservation. And let’s face it, for the vast majority of us right now, that’s an instinct incompatible with the assumption of a mortgage in any shape or form. When you mix these two often-competing drives together in the same relationship, it’s a recipe for a lively marital dynamic.
As Suzanne so successfully exploited, the good reasons for buying a house are as myriad as the good reasons for not buying a house. I know what I did to wheedle a house out of my then-husband. And I know what a lot of my girlfriends did to get theirs. It wasn’t pretty.
But I’ve also been on the losing end of trying to convince him NOT to buy a house (“FOR GODSAKE DON’T BUY THAT HOUSE!”) I can tell you that in both instances, rational argument had no effect whatsoever on the outcome. And in both cases, the result was economic disaster.*
In the interest of providing ammunition to those of us who might be facing this age-old conflict in our own relationships, I thought it might be fun to share some of the arguments we’ve used to successfully tip the scales in our favor—as well as those that induced us to throw up our hands in defeat. Assuming our spouses aren’t reading over our shoulder, perhaps the information will come in handy.
I’ll go first. (I’m intentionally avoiding the “investment” arguments here, because as we all know, real estate didn’t “always go up.”)
Suzanne -the PRO (in no particular order)
-I’m tired of painting, (planting, cleaning, paying the mortgage and taxes on,) someone else’s house. Let’s put all this money and effort into our own lives instead of into paying off the landlord’s kid’s bail bondsman.
-I’ve lived out of a suitcase for the last fifteen years. I desperately need a place to call home. (Tears here.)
-If I have to pack up all this &*#! and move one more time, I shall slit my/your throat
-I didn’t ask you for a fancy wedding, or a diamond, or a honeymoon, or a directorship in your company. I already have a nice car of my own. I need some tangible demonstration of your devotion –so I can show my girlfriends.
-I’m pregnant with your child. I want some place stable where I can raise the thing.
-All our younger friends and family have houses, aren’t you embarrassed?
-You have your club/sailboat/airplane/stupid hobbies/disastrous tax shelters. MY project will be making us a nice home.
-Having a house will demonstrate to your colleagues that you’re serious about being a member of this community. That you have roots here. They will send you more referrals.
-It’s either a house, or I start buying horses. Take your pick.
-Buy the #%$&@*! house or I will leave you and find someone else who WILL! (Used only if you’re 100% willing to back up the threat—in which case you might wish to seriously reconsider the whole relationship.)
Suzanne -the CON
The arguments for NOT buying a house have been discussed in great detail here on HBB, and they are undeniably sensible. But sometimes marital harmony takes precedence over common sense. “We can’t afford it!” is a great reason not to buy a house, but it’s a terrible argument when Suzanne is lurking in the shadows with her Magic Bag o’ Accounting Tricks. To counter that you’ll need some heavy guns.
Bargaining
“Well go on a museum-and-shopping tour of Rome instead.”
Wheedling
Wouldn’t you rather have a new car and dinners out every week? Wouldn’t you rather grow old gracefully instead of eating Friskies and living out of a Gelson’s bag?
Coercion
Don’t expect me to put any of MY money into the joint account. (EVER AGAIN.)
Threats
Don’t even THINK about it. (Slowly dicing carrots with a 10-inch chef’s knife.)
Criminality
Okay, Ziggy. How much will it cost me to “stop” him from signing that purchase agreement?
When a truly determined spouse connects with a truly rapacious Suzanne, you have to resort to drastic tactics to avoid being sucked into the abyss. Different personal styles inspire their own approaches. With all the vivid personalities represented on HBB, I’m sure someone can offer the solution that’s just right for you! Anyone else care to share? The home-moaner you save may be one of our own!
*In the interest of full disclosure, I was unsuccessful in my attempts to convince said former spouse not to purchase a half-built, non-compliant, spec-mansion on an inaccessible hilltop in ….Temecula. That he was unemployed and living in a psychiatric facility at the time of purchase (no, really,) was no deterrent to the UHS/broker– who managed to sneak the closing papers in for him to sign after obtaining his telephone and electrical bills (!) as verification of his credit. (His FICO at the time was negative, IIRC.) “I’ve been a professional here for fifteen years!” She said indignantly when I told her his family was prepared to sue her and her agency if she tried to go through with the sale. “I value my reputation in this community.” (Which given mid-bubble Temecula speaks volumes about the place, I think…).
The whole sordid affair was what prompted me to start posting on HBB in the first place. I am still grateful for all the good advice and sympathy I received here.
“-I’m tired of painting, (planting, cleaning, paying the mortgage and taxes on,) someone else’s house. Let’s put all this money and effort into our own lives instead of into paying off the landlord’s kid’s bail bondsman.”
lol…my landord has spent like $ 8K on the townhouse my wife and i rent just this year. he also spent all day sunday working on two toilets…with 3 trips to home depot to boot…as i sat on the couch eating bon bons (not really but you get the point).
the townhouse is 5 mins from both our offices in mclean, va (we had 45 min to 1 hour commutes when we owned). we pay $ 2,500 bucks a month in rent. any place that close to our offices would be at least $ 4,500 to purchase not counting taxes…which are outrageous.
Like I’ve been saying all the while, having the maintenance crew take care of problems where I rent (within 24 hour notice) leaves me time to work, travel, and work out.
I haven’t had to do my own maintenance or hire a handyman since 1996 when I quit paying mortgage. But I still remember cursing to myself while fixing things when I had fun things I wanted to do.
Maintance is a big reason we are considering selling and renting. Hubby enjoyed doing repairs for awhile but not so much now.
a few years ago my landlord spent his thanksgiving rebuilding my toilet while I spent mine at the beach. What a maroon.
Bravo, Alena, Bravo!
An instant classic, as they say nowadays.
And, very perceptive, for a gir.. fem…lady.
(Just kidding, I very much appreciate your wit and writing style!)
True, and wasn’t Temecula an absolute hotbed for fraud? I seem to recall the whole area was awash in it.
The problem I see w/ NAR is that with little or no oversight, any new recruits quickly learn the “tricks of the trade” ( which means everything from pocket-listings to straw buyers )
Given Mr. H’s state of affairs, it should be only too obvious ‘what’ kind of a “professional” this gal had been over the last 15 years?
Yeah, this is another topic that always gets people fighting. Me, I prefer to use data as the basis of my thought process, so I created a poll on the forum. The link is below.
Nice read. But rancor?? The HBB has become quite tame if you ask me. (not that anybody asked)
I guess it depends on perspective. I remember the troll days, with the “you guys are bat-sh*t crazy” stuff all the time.
I missed some of the good trolls (hedgefundanalyst for one). Still, I thought some of the more raucous stuff could be funny too.
This board has gone from humorous to tragic in many cases.
Las Vegas Landlord! Didn’t she have 34 houses? And what happened to txchick bragging about her stock market wins? Oh and when the Realtors would post, it was great.
Does anyone remember GordonGekko?
Well Ben, everybody is having so much fun here all the time, I bet you could raise the price of admission and still have a packed house.
Why do you say that, Blano? Because most of the woman haters got shut down so bad that they finally shut their mouths? You were one of them, IIRC.
bingo.
“You were one of them, IIRC.”
I must’ve missed Blano’s alleged misogyny. Never read it.
“With all the grim news and hot weather of late, the conversation here at HBB has started to take on a rancor worthy of some rabid wrestlemania site.”
No, I really don’t see it either. Unless you call anger with some of the financial PTB rancor, in which case, I’ll cop to it, but then again, I don’t believe in tipping my hat to snakes, on account of that’s how you get bit.
Rabid wrestlemania site. Now that’s a tad over the top, IMO.
In my experience, the women who yell the loudest about misogyny are the ones who engage in mean-spirited, relentless criticism of men and things male. This is particularly when they are among girlfriends, or in all-women gatherings. You see, some of those women talk about what goes on.
Perhaps, Big V, you are an exception to the rule.
Just remember that “shouting down” people does nothing–nothing whatsoever–to persuade them that they are wrong. It merely demonstrates that you have the loudest voice.
Wine Country Dude:
The only time you ever comment is when you want to put a woman in her place. I’ve never seen you comment anything otherwise. I knew Ahansen’s post would bring you and your ilk out of the woodworks.
Please understand that this is defense. The only criticism being made here is against women. If you have a problem with women who defend themselves, then you should probably spend most of your time with the ugly ones. Us cutie-pies don’t have to take it, so we don’t.
A lot of people read this blog, and the comments made here have an effect on quite a few perspectives. You imply that my posts are not capable of persuasion. If this is true, then the same must apply to your post, in which case you are wasting your time in the same manner that I’m wasting mine.
Great post ahansen! I was wondering, did his family sue that scum? I had a similar happen to me. My Mom was old and starting to lose it, about 4 years ago, and she HAD to have this car. Total hose job trade-in gig, blah, etc.
I called the scum-of-the-earth sales bum, I was 1) going to call the police, 2) remember to pay him a visit someday. Didn’t stop him, he got her. I was living in Florida at the time, and hadn’t moved back to Illinois as of yet.
P.S. I “accidently” ran into him though, when I moved back.
He didn’t call the police either.
Another PRO:
We’re going to have a boy. Do you have any IDEA how much damage a toddler can do to a house? Let’s buy a house while we can still get our security deposit back.
Do you really want to potty train on your own turf?
(kidding!)
Been there, done that. No way I could do that to someone else’s property and sleep at night.
Then you’re doing something wrong. I’ve raised my son from infancy to now-entering-Kindergarten in a rental. No damage. Not from potty training; not from crayons on the wall or play-doh in the carpet; nothing.
No damage. Not from potty training; not from crayons on the wall or play-doh in the carpet; nothing.
Well, that’s great to hear for those of us with miscreants-to-be. Honestly, I’m more worried about our stuff than the landlord’s abode, but I’d hate to see anything happen either way.
I grew up just about all my childhood up until high school in rentals and moved around several times to due dad’s employment. Changing schools sucked, but living in a rental was never a problem. In fact, allowed us to live in a nicer area that otherwise buying wouldn’t allow.
Don’t let the kid run wild, that’s all. Of course there’s always an amount of baby proofing to be done thru the toddler years, but it is certainly possible to have a child and not have your house destroyed.
No offense, eastcoaster, but I feel a little sorry for your kid.
You can feel as sorry for him as you like - he has a very active, very full life. He wants for nothing. He does everything every kid out there does - and many times more. My point is that a kid can play with crayons and play-doh - and not ruin your house with it. Or markers. Or spilling juice boxes on the couch or rubbing chocolate into the carpet. It all depends on the parenting.
I also had a wonderful childhood - and we did not destroy my parents’ house.
“No offense, eastcoaster, but I feel a little sorry for your kid.”
That’s an incredibly rude thing to say. If you didn’t mean to offend, you wouldn’t have posted that. Eastcoaster seems like a really cool gal. That was an unnecessary low blow, and says a lot about your character, or lack of it, “Dr.”.
I just created a poll on the forum (http://forum.thehousingbubbleblog.com/index.php?action=post;board=1.0;poll). Go there and tell the world your gender. Apparently, it’s important.
Funny I should come by today. I’ve been a bear since 2004 but stopped reading HBB and removed it from my feed a while ago because I was put off by the comments blaming “the wimmins and messicans”. My husband pointed out that my economic analysis probably shouldn’t come with a side of stomachache.
Glad you are back.
absinthe makes the heart grow fonder
Hahahaha!
Good to see you again, absinthe. IIRC, yours were among the posts that helped to quell the rabble. Training is ongoing, but both misogyny and racism are far less egregious these days…we’re off on the “socialists” now. Hope you’ll stick around and add to the fun!
Aren’t the wimmins ‘n’ the messicans the socialists?
Big V I just answered your poll - after I found it. 3 (37.5%) are men and 5 (62.5%) are women. I am currently listening to Beethoven’s 9th (Herbert Von Karajan) with the sound turned up, with headphones - love the cellos.
from ahansen That he was unemployed and living in a psychiatric facility at the time of purchase (no, really,) was no deterrent truth is stranger than fiction.
It goes beyond mere beaconing, it’s a compelling attraction that overrides reason or consequence. The nesting instinct is hardwired into our genetics as a survival mechanism, and that’s all there is to it. It makes obsession look like ennui, and addiction look like a breezy flirtation ??
Yep…IMO, this is the overriding reason people buy…Married, partnered or single…
My favorite and one I used, is this statement. “When you sign the papers, (the wife) get ready to work for the next thirty years to pay this thing off. No missed days, and no vacations because it is at the absolute limit of my financial resources. The outcome? No house, yet, although I did promise that if we found one that fit our mutual desires/needs then I would consider and investigate in depth.
Once over this hurdle it has been easier and no more consideration of buying a used or even new house. Actually congratulate ourselves for dodging the bullet. Now we see folks losing their total lifestyle and while I am saddened a bit I am sure glad it ain’t me.
I thought you were a chick, azrenter.
You can be a chick and have a wife at the same time.
Oly’s BAAAACK !!
YES! our wood nymph is back…happy days
are here again…..
Thank you.
*shy giggle *
I’ll go either–be the wife or have one. Hubby is ok with either way but don’t think he would like a second husband.
A 2nd husband sounds good, if only for the reason the current one can’t fix sh*t.
A 2nd husband sounds good, if only for the reason the current one can’t fix sh*t.
LOL.
I laughed at that one, too. Funeeeee, desertdweller!
Would that be called a chick and a chicky-poo?
I just gonna have to wait for the “Women of HBB” calendar to come out at Barnes & Noble in January.
Pooey, I been waitin’ for a ‘Ben Beefcake and Assorted Other Posters’ calendar for FOREVER. Ben just ignores me…
Speaking of calendars,
To bad we may have pis sed off the fire men from this blog, don’t know if we had any, but now for sure, there won’t be any good calendars, for sure.
… but now for sure, there won’t be any good calendars, for sure
Prickly Libertarian beefcake don’t float yer boat?
You were thinking of az_lender.
Let’s see, azrenter is a husband, Arizona Slim is a guy, az_lender is an old lady, dunno about azgolfer and az_owner.
Funny, I thought Arizona Slim was a woman.
I did too.
I am positive that AZ Slim thinks she’s a woman.
Can we have a chart/glossary of who we think we are, on HBB?
just joshing.
Yup, it’s time to confess. Arizona Slim is a gal.
It can all be very confusing. But perhaps that’s the point.
No, I know az_lender is a chick. I’ve met her a few times in person. Arizona Slim is a chick too. azgolfer is a chick.
OHHHH… I was thinking about az_owner. That person is a chick and a Republican and I’m not sure but maybe Asian too. Whew, glad I know where to place my stereotypes now. I was starting to get uncomfortable.
I stand corrected about Arizona Slim. Will read his, oops, her posts differently in the future.
Will read his, oops, her posts differently in the future.
You know, it does make a bit of a difference in your perception and reaction, doesn’t it? Can’t say why that is. Not a value judgment, but it is different somehow.
For instance, I was just saying over in bits how I at first had developed the mental image of Lost in Utarr as some sort of rangy, professor kind of guy, wandering in the hinterlands with a pipe full of Borkum Riff (or something like that, I can’t remember exactly what I said) Then it turns out she’s a young chick, which was a shocker to my system and world view. I had to take a long nap when I found out. Also I had to drink some beer to soothe myself.*
*I was gonna drink beer anyhow, though.
Funny we bring this up, perception, what we think and how it affects how we ‘read’ someone.
They have a goofy tv show Blind date or something.
The 3 guys and 3 women are not allowed to see each other and only talk to each other in the dark, while we can see them.
They have an artist render a picture by their descriptions what they Think the other person looks like after they have met/”dated” in the dark and their perception.
It is funny that how someone sees us is different than how we think we are. Goofy show, but a cool representation of us as human beings and our societal imprints.
And here I thought that Arizona Slim was unusually cool — kinda strange for a male. Ha. Now I know from whence the coolness.
Well, oxide, and I thought YOU were a male for a long time, too!
Because of my expectation that anyone called ‘oxide’ would be a chemist or engineer or something*, and they are mostly male. That’s entirely sexist of me, is all there is to it, and I realized this, with a jolt, when you revealed that you’re a female.
*Or else an evil alien robot who rusted out. I speculated on that subject for a bit, the night you revealed you’re a female, but I think you missed my discussion. Probably for the best—you’d a just got mad and shot some laser death-rays my way.
*Or else an evil alien robot who rusted out. So Oly, and so funny.
Is ‘chick’ a female approved term for woman… I’m just askin’
I didn’t even know that some people found it offensive until I was like 22. Of course, that person was some sort of a freak. Young Republican or some such.
“chick” isn’t a super respectful term
blon=blonde.
Jeeze, that’s not even funny.
Sorry—my first post didn’t make it, so that last one makes no sense. Sigh. That’s what happens when you’re a blonde chick. You just never can make any sense, no matter what. I’m surprised I haven’t been squished in the road, yet, while trying to count gravel.
It would be in my neighborhood- around here “be-yotch” (spell however you like) is considered a term of endearment…
Being In Total Control of Herself = B I T C H
But I am a chick. So why can’t I call other chicks ‘chick’? I also tell blon jokes freely and with pleasure*.
However, if it bothers anyone, instead of ‘chick’ I will say: ‘mamacita’. How’s that?
*The jokes my tiny little blonde brain can remember, anyway. Like that one ‘How many blondes does it take to screw in a lightbulb’? That’s funny!
…Well, it would be funny if I could remember the punch-line. What is it? Anyone know?
Oly, How do you spell too milllon?
Three?
One to hold the bulb, two to spin the ladder.
(ducks and runs from Big V–she’s patrolling this thread like a beat cop!)
Haha.
I’m a blonde too, but I’m not offended by blonde jokes.
You’re cool in my book, Big V. For what it is worth.
sign at a local bar
caution blondes thinking
The best approach so far, az, and maybe the fairest. Thirty years of servitude in exchange for a house payment definitely puts the whole undertaking into perspective. Love, honor, and cherish is one thing. But getting up at 6 am to go to work every day for thirty years is another thing entirely.
ahansen - great post (both this and the original). But your post right here reminded me of something my old man taught me.
Every time you want something, figure out the price and what your take home pay (after taxes, medical insurance, 401k, all that stuff) is for an hour of labor. Figure out how much of your blood, sweat, and tears you are trading for that “thing”, of which you have no chance of taking with you when you die.
Sure cuts down on the amount of stuff I buy. Espically houses.
Awesome post — it really rings true.
“The NAR is once again in full throat touting their time-tested mantra. “It’s a great time to buy.” “Call your professional (!) Real Tor today.””
I’ve seen those TV ads recently here in Massachusetts, too. Why, oh why do they have to pronounce “Realtor” like some kind of robot? People don’t talk like that! I don’t say, “I was run over by a tracTOR and I’m going to see the docTOR.” “Realtor” rhymes with “factor”, not with “shoe store”!
(I think it’s called a schwa sound.)
And don’t even get me started on those who say “real-a-tor” (three syllables).
It’s to make it easier for those who want to call them Realwhores. Sounds a lot closer doesn’t it?
A friend of mine became a realtor, and he said one day in ‘class’ the speaker made everyone say “real-TOR” in unison about ten times in a row. (He refers to himself as a ril-uh-ter nevertheless.) I too can’t fathom their obsession with having it pronounced that way. Maybe they think it sounds like ‘doctor’? But we don’t say doc-TOR.
There was a local UHS running ads on morning talk radio and he kept calling himself a “realitor.” What a freaking moron.
Probably so people don’t misspell it Realter and devalue the brand.
snort. Good one Va.
Maybe those who say real-a-tor went to the same school as W
Nukular school!
Funny one, des.
There was an excellent weekend discussion here, maybe around 3 years ago, on the pros/cons of renting versus owning. It should be required reading for anyone considering buying.
Whether having a relationship or buying a house, the decision should be driven by whether or not it will make your life better. Doing either, even if done well, will not solve all your problems. Done right, you could be very happy. Done wrong, miserable beyond belief.
When considering whether or not to buy, one needs to consider all aspects of owning, not just the cost and not that it will supposedly be better because it will rid you of whatever things you don’t like about renting. You’ll likely get a whole new set of potential problems when owning, just different.
SDGreg, you present the matter as if the advantages of owning might, in half the cases, outweigh the disadvantages of owning. I hardly think so. Not at a time when owning remains more expensive than renting (almost everywhere) AND prices are falling. The nesting instinct can be exercised in a rental apartment almost as well as in an “owned” property.
The nesting instinct can be exercised in a rental apartment almost as well as in an “owned” property ?? It depends…
Single empty nester ?? I suppose so…
Married with a toddler and two kids in the local elementary school…Probably not…
Or in a rented house. That’s what I like to do. These days, the price of a rented house is only slightly more than the price of a rented apartment, and the living is better. Why buy?
The only thing we can do in a house we own that we couldn’t do in a rental is take out a wall.
If you get a landlord that doesn’t mind improvements done to their property, you would probably be able to take out the wall.
Our landlord let us build an extra room in the garage (had some help from neighbors who are carpenters and electricians). When and if we ever move the room can be taken down.
This is true. But I’m not sure how many people would want to turn a formal dining room into a kitchen/dinette area. Hubby wants to turn the old kitchen into a hottub room. Not going to happen anytime soon. We need a study more.
SF,
I did LL-approved improvements on every house I ever leased; projects ranging from painting and re-carpeting, to installing new lighting fixtures and built-in bookcases, to planting rose and herb gardens. And with four separate rentals, the LL decided that the improvements made the place so much more livable it merited a significant rent increase…or they simply refused to renew the 2 year lease and moved in the wife’s mother..”Now that it looks so nice.”
At some point the lightbulb in my head flicked on.
I’ve painted commercial rental apartments. With the turner at property mgmt companies, no one really knows what color it was originally.
ahansen,
I have a landlord who just wants to keep his good tenants as long as possible. He definitely can charge a lot more than he is charging now.
Good fer you, sf. I’m hoping my current landlord will let me stay here indefinitely. He’d better, or I’ll have to disown the rotten child….
SDGreg, you present the matter as if the advantages of owning might, in half the cases, outweigh the disadvantages of owning.
That wasn’t the intent. I’m not sure that would be true even in more normal circumstances (decent economy, more balanced housing market, etc.). Under current circumstances, renting is the far better option for many more people.
In the Northeast it is still pretty hard to find a house rental for a family and pets in a nice neighborhood for much less than the mortgage would be - w/ space for kids, fenced in yard for dogs - that isn’t on the market or in danger of being on the market soon… Add in absentee or by necessity only landlords, and you have a whole nother set of issues of having to uproot kids out of school w/ no notice, not get repairs made in a timely manner, etc. So, I am a bear on housing, but in no way do I think it is black and white for families - in our area anyways.
I agree with this. House rentals are too high in my area as are house prices. Apartments are pretty reasonable and my townhouse rent is, too. But not SFH rents. Thus, my dilemma as well (meaning it’s not just as simple as renting vs. owning).
adaylate,
Excellent post, and great insight. Been trying… to share that concept for the longest time?
What I think we’ll find encouraging is that during The Boom, the only things that really came on the market were either very little value-added flips, curb appeal specials and new construction.
A great many ( perfectly useable ) homes simply weren’t put on the market as the owners were content w/ them or didn’t feel they would fetch a fancy price. I think a whole new world is about to open up for potential buyers.
Oh and before I get both barrels, YES, I realize there was plenty of over-priced garbage out there ( some of which were laughingly pointed out here as well as other blogs! )
But again, those were so obvious, they were easy to dismiss. One of my big complaints all along was that much of the OP POS were priced as if the necessary improvements were -already- done?
All YOU had to ‘do’ was find $50-$75k in free money and a year to complete the improvements. ( Living out of a 5th wheel trailer in the interim )
I disagree that the “only things that really came on the market were either very little value-added flips, curb appeal specials and new construction.” I saw plenty of useable/liveable homes go on the market during the boom - all with the same inflated prices. They were as much nonsense as the flips. Still are.
eastcoaster,
Oh I’ve no doubt. And while we’ve seen plenty ( I mean c’mon just look at the sheer volume of listings fer’ crying out loud? ) here in OR, I’m starting to see things come on the market I wasn’t even aware existed!
Like dogs that chase cars, to be sure there’s plenty of realtor listed homes that have been advertised to hell and back, had numerous price changes, rental status and if I see (1) more Bed & Breakfast I think I’m going to puke.
So I can’t speak to your area but I’m starting to see a little crack of daylight. What we found here was that once a home had been sold for a profitable flip, the re-flippers were drawn to it like a moth to light. Some homes were sold as many as 4 or 5 times in as many years, while others that didn’t have location X 3 were simply glossed over?
What is a “curb appeal special?”
oxide,
Not sure exactly what I was driving at there other than to say, “All of the things a seller can do to ensure the home “shows” fabulously!”
How many listings have we all seen posted in MLS etc. where you find yourself wondering if the people that live there actually ‘use’ the bathroom? Or in their unending desire to flip and profit they use the one at the gas station just in case there’s a “showing” on short notice!?
I think we’ll all see a lot more sensible homes come on the market as the “players” are driven out and long-time owners that really didn’t participate in the boom go to list for all the normal reasons. Retirement, empty-nester etc. Things that were hidden from plain sight through all the “Look at ME!” listings?
So the curb appeal specials are the ones with ads that read like “newer roof, neutral paint, new carpet, granite countertops…”
I just recently moved into a rental house that is also for sale. This is the first time I’ve ever taken this particular risk, as I could be kicked out with 30 days notice. However, I’m doing it anyway because I doubt anyone will buy the place for ANYTHING CLOSE to what the LL is asking, and the rent is super low. He reduced his asking price by $50k back in December and he’s still crowing about it, even though similar houses are on the market for $50k less than his current ask. He paid cash for the house, so foreclosure is not a danger.
I’d better knock on wood now. Wish me luck.
-BV
Dose of custom down-market juju is on its way, Big V. I’m not too worried, though. Poor landlord has no CLUE what kind of hurt is awaiting if they try to pull a fast one on YOU….
Massive amounts of luck to you. I don’t think you will be moving anytime soon.
Enjoy and does he have anymore of these great but overpriced gems?
Not in Maryland! Near DC, It’s still waaaaayyyy cheaper to rent a SFH, like we do, than buy it.
And yes we have kids. And no, they don’t draw on the walls. And yes, I’m a “nester” — I have container plants, and I sew my kids clothes and quilts and toys, and I love to cook and I don’t need to own the house to make it a home for my family.
I’d way rather own. I’d like an inground pool, I mess with automation stuff. It’s just that the morons ran the prices up. At the same time the cost to rent skyrocketed to. I know I’m in the upper 20% or so of incomes in the region, but you wouldn’t know it by the housing on the market. $200K gets you a dilapidated eyesore (possibly with granite though).
“$200K gets you a dilapidated eyesore (possibly with granite though)”
Very well said. Again my point is that we all have to find the ones where the existing sellers didn’t get Re-Hab Fever any more than ‘we’ did.
‘Whether having a relationship or buying a house, the decision should be driven by whether or not it will make your life better. Doing either, even if done well, will not solve all your problems. Done right, you could be very happy. Done wrong, miserable beyond belief.’
I’d like to see some NAR ads that show people wallowing in misery because they rented all their lives and have no equity to cash in on. Why don’t they run those ads? I mean, they come out and say that on average houses double in price every 10 years. Wowwwww!! Sign me up.
Point is, a while back I had a moment where I realized if I ever have a tombstone, it might just have a sentence that says I never owned a home. Oh the pain!!!!!
I like this rent vs. own calculator at Nolo. http://nolo.com/calculator.cfm?CALCULATORID=HF05&TEMPLATE_ID=www.nolo.com_1
Notice how much difference it makes what you assume about house appreciation (the default is 4%) and investment return (default 2.3%).
I would assume 0% on the house (or negative in some cases. It’s hard to know what to assume for investments…
Interesting. The calculator doesn’t allow for negative house appreciation.
Probably was installed by NAR.
Did they stop giving real estate licenses out to men at some point? And did the majority of households suddenly hand the reins of the finances over to the wife? Sorry Ahansen, but this is a patriarchal society. If a dude decides to buy a house, then it takes a huge dose of LAME for him to blame it on his wifey when it doesn’t work out.
Well in the house I grew up in my mom always had the financial reins.
My sister has it in her household. She is the one that has to beat back her husband from wanting to go out and buy a new house, new clothes, new car etc..
My brother and sister in law both share the financial reins.
My mom had the financial reins too because my mom and dad were divorced. But that’s beside the point. The majority of major financial decisions in this country (and even more so in most other countries) are made by the husband.
Really … no way … a lot of women I know have control over the money, myself included … I’m better at it, so I take on the responsibility.
Need I define “majority”? You are analyzing a sample size of one.
“a lot of women I know….myself included” constitutes more than one.
I always thought the man brought the paycheck home to the wife. Didn’t they teach household budgeting back in home economics back in the 50’s/60’s.
Kirisdad:
Great. Do a poll. Do you know “a lot of women” who don’t control the finances? Do the ppl you know really let you in on the financial details of their lives? Do you know, say, 100,000 households with husbands and wives living in them? I’m pretty sure that simply throwing out “a lot of women I know” on a blog is not enough to counter the well-known fact that men as a group are the ones controlling the finances of the world, all the way down to the household level in most cases.
Hi Skip:
In the 1950s and 1960s, it was commonplace for the husband to give his wife an allowance, and to keep his money in an account with only his name on it.
V, I am very sorry. You’re very passionate about this subject and you’re right, I don’t know the financial details of peoples lives. What I do know is, when I’m passionate about a subject I don’t like being teased or goaded.
Kirisdad:
I thought you were a dad until you just said you’re a woman. Inywayz, if you’re not also passionate about this subject, then you should be. It’s not OK for some women to sit back and allow themselves to be characterized as people who are incapable of REASON due to their hormones, which force them into a nesting instinct that somehow leads them to wheedle things out of their husbands. You should be offended by the sentiment and do your part to oppose it.
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/967/gender-power
My gosh. You guys got so emotional you forgot to just google it.
Who Makes the Big Household Purchases?
A large plurality of couples (46%) jointly make decisions about buying major items for the home. But again, in families in which one person makes most of these decisions, it’s the woman and not the man who has the last word when purchasing big-ticket items for the home (30% vs. 19%).
As previously stated my husband has absolutely nothing to do w/any money decisions nor would he ever want to. He’s the hardest worker and well respected at work but personal fiscal discipline, he just doesn’t posess.
My mother made all the money decisions in her home for the same reasons. But she was married to more of a bonehead than I am. (Told me my going to college was a waste because I was a woman. So I paid for the whole 4 years myself w/o one red cent from him and made President’s list. Ha!)
CarrieAnn:
This study was done incorrectly, as it asks the person who answers the phone to give their opinion on the matter. Most people answering the phone during the day are women. Furthermore, most people have an inaccurate perception of their own relationships, often guaging them to be far more equitable than they really are. Check out this tidbit from the article to which you linked:
A more accurate study would be to ask specific questions of both the husband and wife, such as “Did you and your spouse initially disagree on whether or not to buy a house?” If so, whose opinion was eventually acted upon? Not simply “Who is the decision maker in your household regarding finances?”. That’s too vague. It includes whether you get generic or Dole at the grocery store.
See, Carrie Ann:
The question gets answered differently when ased differently in a different environment:
http://www.franchising.com/pressreleases/12666/
Define major decision and what it concerns.
Major financial decisions:
1. Buying a house
2. Investing for retirement
3. Buying expensive toys such as sports cars, motorcycles, and boats (girl toys such as purses and manicures don’t cost enough to be considered “major”)
4. Funding the educational accounts for the kids
I’m sure other commentators can come up with a few more.
In our household, my wife has a firm rein on the finances. It’s been this way since day one.
However, I make 90% of the FINANCIAL decisions that affect our income because I’m very good at it and she knows it. Luckily for us, we’ve managed to have a fairly good income that allows for discretionary spending.
The majority of major financial decisions in this country (and even more so in most other countries) are made by the husband.
Perhaps I live in Bizarro World (some posters here prob’ly think I do), but that’s not been the case in either of my marriages, nor is it true in my social/professional circles. In aggregate, you’re probably correct, but I think you need to account for a variety of subdemographics where the reality is different or more nuanced.
Once again, your sample size is way too small, and likely biased. It makes no sense to blame the participation of a handful of women for an event that was masterminded, marketed, and executed by a boatload of men.
Big V
hellova big chip on yer shoulder regarding men.
on a side note, the ” Whole legions of Suzannes, fresh out of Suzanne school ..”
statement made me laugh heartily.
Great post!
AQIUS:
I have a chip on my shoulder about anyone who puts me down, whether the insult be based on my gender or anything else. YOU may be amused by “great posts” that encourage us to attack one another on the basis of our gender, but I am not amused. I went through way too much effort to humiliate the insecure girl-haters on this blog just to see it all evaporate with an invitation (from a woman) to start it all up again.
I dare even one of you to come up with a valid statistic demonstrating that women contributed more to the housing bubble than men. If you men wish to be in control (and don’t even pretend that you don’t), then you men will just have to take responsibility for your own decisions.
Big V,
I commend you and support you. I remember so much misogyny on this blog in the past, and I am glad it has toned down. We all know that men make more than women for doing the same work in this society and that more upper management and top government positions are held by men due to a “glass ceiling”. Men are still dominant in the culture, and I agree that it seems counterproductive to “have some fun here” with dumb stereotypes. “Suzanne” is not even a real person, she is a stereotype created, probably by a man. We shouldn’t be discussing “Suzanne” as if she is real, or ignoring the many many male real estate agents.
Let’s stop blaming women as a gender. Why are women forced to wear burkas in some places? Because everything is their fault, and they cause disaster if people on the street can even see them. I can appreciate discussing whether real estate agents in general are santa or satan, but not whether female real estate agents are the problem.
I guess it must be a slow news day that we have sunk to this.
“Why are women forced to wear burkas in some places?”
Because the men who are forcing them to wear burkas suck and are morally bankrupt.
Someone once asked Step why he was in Afghanistan. If memory serves, he said something like “So my wife won’t have to wear a burka”. You know, that’s when I became a fan of Step. Clearly, Step values his wife and for that I honor him.
Blaming women has been a sort of blood sport down through the ages. It’s not only Islamic sects that do this, although their treatment of women on some fronts seems particularly vicious. Many religions seem to have a beef with women. I don’t know why. The Adam and Eve story puts the blame squarely on women for the loss of paradise. Buncha BS.
ATE-UP agrees with you Big V. And the last time I looked, I was a guy.
look again, ate..
lol
just kidding ya.
Yikes, V.
Humor. Tongue-in-cheek? It’s August…?
Suzanne is an archetype not an indictment of any specific gender (especially not Yours,) and if you recall, I prefaced the post with a paragraph-long plea for civility and consideration of some of our readers’ delicate sensibilities. I’d hoped the humor was self-evident and would spark a similarly lighthearted discussion.
That having been said, far be it for me, a simple mortal, to invoke Your wrath over something as silly as this. We all know that women control the majority of the nation’s personal wealth: federalreserve.gov/pubs/oss , so it’s not as though we’re the underlings in this debate.
Your obvious superiority in every respect is both terrifying and wonderful, and I bow before Your magnificence. Can You please see fit to cut me a teeny bit of slack on this one? I’m just trying to do Ben a favor and get folks thinking– not insult You personally or on the basis of Your exalted gender. (whimpers, cowers, slinks off under the porch….)
Hey ahansen, I wasn’t knocking your post, just sexism in general. I never thought about your post being sexist. Just for the record. Your post was great. Loved it.
Thanks, ATE. Other than specific references to myself, the body of the text is entirely gender (and sexual preference) neutral. As am I.
For all we know, “Suzanne” was Owen Wilson in drag….
Here is the text that is sexist from Ahansen’s post:
Also, please note that all the “arguments for buying an overpriced house” are female-oriented arguments. Where are the male-oriented ones? Guys want to work on cars and do home improvement projects and compete with their brothers/colleagues.
The main intention of this post was to stir up a fight between men and women.
They’re “female oriented” because they were my own, V. As were the “arguments” AGAINST buying a house. Why are you making all these sexist assumptions? (”Guys want to work on cars and do home improvement…” and women don’t?)
With the exception of the pregnancy thing, any of the pros or cons I threw out could be used by either gender–unless you don’t think the word “spouse” applies to males as well as females. Or that women don’t own boats and airplanes. Or that men aren’t real tors.
I specifically wrote this piece to be gender neutral. So why all the shrill accusations and aspersions as to my “abusive sexism?” It seems to me that your over reaction speaks more to your own prejudices than to what you suppose to be my own.
As to the “main intention” of my guest post, it was to “stir up” a lively debate. Looks like I was successful.
I’d be glad to discuss this with you further, but for the sake of propriety, perhaps we should take it offline?
Best,
a
Jesus V, have a drink or something. Lighten up.
Ahansen:
You characterized Suzanne as a “handmaiden of Satan”. That is not gender neutral. How can you not see how you are playing into this thing?
I couldn’t very well call her a handboy of Satan, now could I? Perhaps if the character had been named Cyril….
Ahansen:
You could have said a million genderless things, but you didn’t. You have bought into some pretty self-demeaning stuff.
As to the “main intention” of my guest post, it was to “stir up” a lively debate. Looks like I was successful.
Well done, madame!
Even if things were taken far more literally than you prob’ly intended, interesting results were achieved.
Regards,
Just Another Handperson of Satan, Whose Gender Matter Not To The Dark Lord
Wow- what’s with the man hatin’ here? I appreciate your honesty Ms Hansen-great essay!! The nesting instinct is a strong drive in women, as is the mating drive in men. Both can overpower logic- it takes a strong PERSON to control them!! That being said, I think it speaks volumes that you (a woman) speak so frankly about it as it could be considered “demeaning” or showing “weakness”. We humans seem to think we are so evolved and complicated and forget that we are all driven by certain basic instincts. It is what it is- if you recognize these drives it makes peoples actions a lot easier to understand. Women do stupid $hit, men do stupid Shit! We just have different reasons for doing it!!! Anyway, I (a man, if it matters) have loved your guest posts- they are very well thought out and a delight to read!! People need to get over themselves….
Man hating? Where? Show me one man-hating post (other than DD dissing on her husband’s fixing skills). You admitted above that women are referred to as “bitches” in your neighborhood, so I’m not surprised that you equate self-respect with man-hating in a woman.
And I’m also not surprised that Ahansen is getting so many kudos from guys like you.
Jesus, bunch of over sensitive fags.
O.K. bigV. If Barney took responsibility then would a girlyman qualify ??? hahahahahaha
DH and I split the job of handling our finances for the most part. He writes the checks, but I research the banks and move the money around in order to get the best interest rates.
Funny thing about home buying though… after we spent two days in a car with a real-tor who had body odor so bad it gave my husband a migraine, he decided that it was “the woman’s job” to pick out a house. Which is why we don’t have one.
The woman’s job to “pick” the house, not to “buy” the house. This tells me that he decided to buy one, and then let you do the choosing. Good thing you didn’t, otherwise he would be blaming you for losing all the money.
Dad ran heavy equipment and did hard labor. Mom had the day to day financial skills. Of course, she ran a bookkeeping business on the side and was a branch manager at a bank for years. Big purchase decisions that impacted lifestyle were made together, but in retrospect overall it seemed matriarchal.
This is what I grew up with and thought was normal. Is it not?
Is it normal to have a bookkeeper/banker mom and a hard labor dad? No.
Lemme clarify my question.
Isn’t it normal for the spouse with the skills to handle the money?
Would that have been Bernie, or Ruth Madoff?
Just askin’
Most women don’t believe that they can/should/do have the skills. Most men think the same thing about women in general. It’s not valid to use your mom and dad as an example. You have to do a scientific poll to find out (or you could just look around to see who’s in charge in the world).
For instance, whenever I go to a store in Central America, and I am attended by a guy (relative, BF, or friend), the cashier always gives the price to the guy I’m with, even though I’m the one standing at the cash register setting the items on the table and holding money in my hand. You can probably come up with 100 examples of women you know from Central America who keep their husbands in a permanent headlock and control EVERYTHING in the family, but you can’t deny the obvious fact that men are more responsible for finances than women.
Yeah, your point is an excellent one Big V. I just like to entertain the idea or fantasy that here in North America there’s a little more diplomacy between the sexes. That gender matters less compared to past when deciding who will do what in any given family. For example, I’m a male with superior cleaning skills thanks to training from an early age. Dishes, laundry, sinks, toilets, tubs, dust, vacuum, mop, etc. and I get satisfaction out of it (how sick is that).
Dishes, laundry, sinks, toilets, tubs, dust, vacuum, mop, etc. and I get satisfaction out of it (how sick is that).
Wha…? Plus you know about clams and guns! Sweet Baby Jeebus, man, you’re perfect! Marry me! Just for awhile!
Ask him if he uses a bore snake to clean his guns ;-).
Can I be on the list too Oly? I mean default, kinda??
You betcha! You know about and love clams, too, after all…
*whisks out post-it list and makes a note of it *
Oly - If you ever need an assistant clam digger/housekeeper and I happen to be in the PNW you can hire me cheap. Barter payment in beer and seafood usually works. Btw…you ever use a PVC clam gun?
Slim - Clean bores the old fashion way. Rod, patches, solvent, and gun oil. Although recently, I have switched to a modern synthetic solvent/oil combination. Sometimes a brass wire brush is necessary if I’ve been shooting cast bullets that tend to leave behind chunks of lead in your barrel. Does the bore snake work for ya on your rifles/pistols/shotguns? I’m open to new ideas. Oh, and what’s up with the porch light at the Slim Ranch?
ATE - can you imagine what a person could learn from Oly being her assistant or lackey?
It is probably beyond BOTH of our imaginations Rob!!
“who managed to sneak the closing papers in for him to sign after obtaining his telephone and electrical bills (!) as verification of his credit.”
Wow. Just….. wow. Remember back when a current telephone bill was sufficient to obtain a _library_ card (e.g. it acted as proof of address), not a freakin mortgage?
Great post, ahensen! Keep up the good work…
Prime,
My sentiments exactly. Not to make light of his condition, but what did she do? Drive out to the hospital to get a signature?
But being a true professional ( and a 6% comm. ) she was only too willing to do it! I have a ret. friend in Palm Springs and in spite of numerous near death scenarios, his ex. -still- wanted him to sign off on a VA loan so she wouldn’t be a lowly renter. Circa 2006.
Actually, she got his messenger to smuggle it in with a stack of CT scans he was supposed to interpret. Scary on so many levels….
Reprehensible is what it is.
Yes, reprehensible.
I just think it shows how totally devoid of any sense that there’d be ‘consequences’ these people became. Sure, maybe she had an instant of cringing at just how brazen she’d become, but it passed quickly.
Again, I think an instance of REIC’sters working off the assumption they’d never really have to face the music as the property would certainly do nothing but appreciate! So, in her mind ( she was doing you a favor )
Hey, ATE, how do you spell ‘reprehensible’?
*snicker
*
“D-E-V-E-L-O-P-E-R”
LOL!
Things have changed a lot since I last spoke to a Ramen_Eater. Five years ago, they gave you telephone numbers of easy money lenders and willingly showed you properties. Today, they ask, “Have you been pre-qualified for a loan?”
It’s a much better time to buy today than it was 5 years ago. The HERD is dumping its Real Estate like no tomorrow — walking away. I looked at a property with a 1993 inflation adjusted price over the weekend. It’s going to get even better in the coming months.
Gonna take a looooooooong time for this to play out here in SoCal…
I’ve argued before that the best way to innoculate against “Gotta-Buy-Itis,” is to spend some time with an upside-down couple (or even better, a family with kids) who are facing foreclosure. Certainly visiting my ex-roomate from college shortly before he was foreclosed on in the late 80’s put the fear into me. Perhaps a little too much becuase I didn’t buy until 1999, and I probably could have afforded to much earlier.
That was excellent Ahansen.
1 thing - if renting were a secure long term option, like 5-10 yrs or more (of course with all the caveats being good house, good neighborhood, good neighbors…).
Knowing that the rent goes up and they might sell at any time is only unsettling feeling. Otherwise, renting is definitely the way to go.
Just save up money for movers.
Knowing that the rent goes up
-Rents have only gone down since the housing bubble started.
they might sell at any time
-That was once a concern (during the bubble), but the new owner would typically be an investor who would keep the current tenants anyway. Not really a concern anymore since no one’s buying (unless you get the rare LL who can cut his price enough to actually sell it).
As somebody who is in the ‘catch a falling knife and stick it in your wallet’ camp now, I gotta say… don’t buy right now. Keep waiting! If you absolutely have to (and I did per an agreement with my wife) be looking, lowball and drive a bargain so hard it makes the sellers cry. We were very picky, and offered on a whopping 3 houses over 2 years. We tracked a few to see if they’d get low enough to be worth lowballing, but they wound up selling. The house we wound up buying (or will, once it closes) had been on the market for 6 months, and the heirs were getting desperate to get it sold. They had declined a lowball from us earlier and finally their realtor asked us to bid again, and they took our offer flat out that time.
Several people have been surprised at the price we got in the neighborhood we’re in. The appraiser came out and said he couldn’t appraise it for what we were paying and it would appraise out at about 10% over. But I tell every one of them we overpaid, and that the house will be worth less in 2 years than we paid for it today. And it will. I’m just hoping it’s not drastically less. My ‘best guess’ is that we managed to split the remainder of the depreciation. And in the mean time, we’re moving out of our going-down-hill neighborhood tiny house into a larger house on a lot 3 times as big in a school system that’s pretty darn good.
I’d like to thank everybody on this board. You all helped me convince my wife to stop looking in March of 2007. She agreed to a year’s time off. In 2008, she agreed to a strategy of lowballing houses we could totally love. I almost lose my lunch thinking about some of the houses we came close to buying back in 2007. The information here helped me and my wife avoid a huge loss and instead wind up with a much smaller and more manageable loss on a much better house and neighborhood.
sfbubblebuyer:
Congratulations to you and your wife on your new home!
Well, it’ll be the bank’s for a while.
But thanks.
Now… don’t be like me! DODGE THOSE KNIVES!
Well, I feel sort of congratulatory, but on the other hand I am conflicted and displeased, because now you’ll be all super busy mowing and arguing with plumbers and all that kinfe-catcher, er…I mean ‘homeowner’…cr*ap to have any time to post here anymore, or any inclination, either.
And that just makes me very sad, because you’re a great poster. So sad that I have to go drink beer now.
Ah yes, the old reject your first offer & then Listing Realtor comes crying back a Month or two later & asks you to re-offer.
That’s when you know you’ve got ‘em!!
We did this in NoVA in 2001, offered 406K on a house that was listed for 520K
They got now other offers, and were on the Market for 4 Months already
Did I mention it was a nasty Divorce????
Well they came back & said re-bid
We said the original offer stands !!!
And they took it, even after their Realtor screamed at our Realtor over the phone about it!!
We sold it in ‘06
Sounds like you did all right.
“…‘catch a falling knife and stick it in your wallet’.”
Dang, sf, now I’m gonna be humming that all afternoon.
It’s my new theme song. I actually wrote a bunch of lyrics to it and posted it a few weeks ago.
Way to go and good luck! Let someone else move the heavy stuff.
sfbubblebuyer where did you buy?
On the peninsula in the hills. If you want more specific information, drop me an email at enigmaartist on yahoo.
This evening, instead of going to the beach after work on the third day of a heatwave, I’ll be going to Home Depot to try to buy a part to incompetently fix my plumbing. Landlords are good for that kind of thing.
An entertaining read - but obviously a male writers perspective.
Ahansen is a woman. She’s simply parroting the abusively sexist sentiment that was once rampant on this blog. I didn’t realize until now that she had actually bought into it.
Big V:
maybe from me recollection I don’t remember much of that going on…I think what people call sexist or racist today is really about the behavior of that person or group.
For example I want to promote black artists, musicians who are nice people making great dance music, notice i said black and not ghetto types… big difference in behavior not skin color.
Chris rock knows the score:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7b2oCYgfik
Hi NyCdj:
No offense, but you haven’t been reading long enough to remember the devisive hatred that we used to have to deal with on this blog. Hatred against blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, Indians, women, and children. Basically anything that looked like an easy target. You know how some ppl are. These ppl need to be smacked down early and often IMO.
I know some of questionable posts have made have been sent to outer space by Ben, and i thank him..
—————————————–
These ppl need to be smacked down early and often IMO.
Oh I do. Big V is right.
I called some folks on it, and hoped I wasn’t the only one who noticed. Even though many of us disagree on things, now it generally seems as if it is about the issues, not gender. Now if we could get some folks off the immigration myopia. Cause it is bigger than the folks they are pinning it on.
Come on DD, there are 26 million of them and the Mesiah wants us to give them SS and health care. Almost time to bug out.
I’m tellin’ ya.
ROTFLMAO
(takes a deep breath, wipes tears of mirth from eyes.)
Yeah, V. Whatever.
hmmm.. evidently, sexism can be in the eye of the beholder.
I read the whole article and not one bit of sexism jumped out at me.. and i really expected it after her last article. I figured her for a crusty diehard wimmin libber from way back.
The first line was.. something about.. lemme paste it.
Following the Great Purge of ‘81, when the first generation of female middle-management was systematically “downsized”.
great purge? wtf was that about? I didn’t have the energy to search and really don’t care anyway, so don’t explain it to me. I’m not interested.
Anyway, today’s was about human relationships, mostly husband wife. It seemed perfectly fair and thoughtful and lighthearted. That you got all upset about it says a lot more about you than it does about the article.
What it says about me, Joe, is that I am not afraid to stick up for myself when need be. And if you think you are going to deter me by attacking my character (”… says a lot more about you than it does about the article”), then you have another thing coming.
Have I ever told you that I think you’re the stupidest commentator on this blog? You contradict yourself all the time, and you’re willing to outright lie just to justify your constant arguments. For instance, I don’t believe for a minute that you didn’t see anything sexist in an article that literally invites us to “attack eachother on the basis of our gender”. That’s what sexism is, you dolt.
Now go play devil’s advocate on a blog where everyone doesn’t already hate you.
i’m not attacking your character. I’m not attacking you at all. I am defending ahansen from your attacks.. So, at best it might be seen as a defensive attack.
now bash me because my (male) defending her (female) is nothing but classic male sexism..
“…literally invites us to “attack eachother on the basis of our gender”. That’s what sexism is, you dolt.”
No, that’s what “humor” is, V. It’s called chiding, and it’s meant as a good-natured poke in the ribs of the type of people I dedicated the first paragraph of my guest blog to. You know. The kind who refer to fellow posters as “dolts?”
Humor at my expense is not taken kindly. Must be the hormones.
This is the type of humor that old white men have been subjecting the rest of us to for ages. Funny for them; damaging for us. Such a shame that so many women were brought up to accept it.
If you show yourself to have a high sensitivity to a particular sort of jab or humor, you pretty much ensure that you will get more of it.
In an effort to throw off the yoke of “old white men”, you may wind up bearing a heavier burden.
It’s like that saying, “Holding onto anger with the intent of using it against someone else is like holding onto a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone.”
Sorry neuromance, but there’s no way this chicky-poo is going to go along with it. The old white men have been getting that treatment long enough. Does it seem to be working mostly for us or mostly for them?
Women of Ahansen’s generation were raised with the same philosophy that you just threw out there (take it on the chin and maybe they’ll grow to like you). Women of my generation know better.
Wasn’t about “husbands and wives.” Wasn’t even about men and women. Or men and men. Or women and emus for that matter.
For heaven’s sake, it was a frothy little diversion about human foibles, and the thorny interplay of the nesting instinct (genderless,) with that of self-preservation (also genderless.) But then, I guess we all have our presumptions….
Ahansen, you specifically attributed the nesting instinct to females, specifically listed the stereotypically feminine reasons for wanting to own real estate, specifically blamed females for “wheedling” houses out of their husbands, and specifically called out for us to attack eachother based on gender.
How can you say the article wasn’t about males and females? You based it one of the most sexist memes ever hashed and rehashed on this blog!
They were MY reasons, V. Not “feminine stereotypes.” That is YOUR assumption, not my own.
See the difference?
Ahansen:
You listed them as Suzanne’s reasons. After explaining that females are incapable of reasononing because of our nesting instinct. In the interest of providing ammunition to those of us who might be facing this age-old conflict in our own relationships.
You know Big V most of the time I agree with you. Not this time.
Handmaidens of Satan are all female. So Suzannes are all female. So all this crap coming from Suzanne is all coming from females. See how it goes?
The Suzanne meme has always been insulting, and it still is.
I know a whole bunch of female FB’s whose lapses in judgment arose from their inability to earn a decent living through paid work. I don’t think the fantasy of getting rich by becoming a mini-DonaldTrump was restricted to females–heck, look at Casey Serin!–but for women over 45 without terrific credentials, RE seemed to offer opportunity where the job market did not.
Actually I could put myself in the very same picture, even though I have a science PhD and so forth. I have made at least as much money in lending as I’d have made in salary, and with a small fraction of the time expended. Plus no asshole boss. The difference between me and the aforementioned FB’s is that I lived like a pauper till I was 47 (married and afterwards), so I had the capital to take advantage of the right lending opportunities when they came along.
Up till now, men have certainly had the better wage opportunities, though I believe statistically it’s mainly men who have been laid off in the past year or so. I agree w/ Big V that couples’ financial decisions are more often made by men. If women control more wealth, it’s probably because there are more widows than widowers.
“Ahansen is a woman. She’s simply parroting the abusively sexist sentiment that was once rampant on this blog.”
“Parroting”?
Big V, you are not doing any favors to women or feminists. Shrill, sanctimonious, narrow-minded - way to live up to the worst stereotypes.
Disclosure - I’m feminist, and I do agree there have been misogynic posts on this board. But ahansen’s post is not one of them.
Yes, NYchk.
I don’t think you were reading yet when the Suzanne meme was first posited on this board. The misogynistic sentiment surrounding Suzanne was really bad. It took a lot of “shrill, sanctimonious, narrow-minded” argumentation to convince the Suzanne crowd to finally shut up or ship out.
I realize that women in Russia (where you’re from) are trained to take whatever abuse they get from men, but we don’t have to do that here.
” I realize that women in Russia (where you’re from) are trained to take whatever abuse they get…”
Just as I said - shrill, sanctimonious, narrow-minded. And also clueless and uneducated about the world at large, LOL. A credit to all native born Americans, you are (not).
FYI, honey, women in Russia for generations enjoyed many more freedoms and equality than subservient mass of American hausfraus, who are still dependent on the hubby for daily sustenance. “Feminist” is not a dirty word in Russia, it’s a given.
We had equal pay for equal work - do you?
Sky was the limit if you wanted career. College was for getting education, not for catching husbands. We had every support to both raise the kids and succeed professionally (free nursery schools and kindergarden, for starters - it was never a choice between sacrificing family or professional life - “career is bad” meme was not even on the radar, unlike it is here).
Not until I came to America, did I find out that as a woman I should NOT expect to be paid the same for equal work, that I have to choose whether to sacrifice my family or my career, that my right to choose what to do with my body may be under discussion, and that the very notion of “genders are equal” may be revolutionary for a large part of both male and female population. Amazing!
So BigV, why don’t you take your bigotry and absurd lack of both logic and manners, and stick it where the sun don’t shine?
Sure, NYchk, women in Russia are totally well-off, even though they’ve been SELLING THEMSELVES IN MAIL-ORDER catalogues for decades.
Whatever you say.
“they’ve been SELLING THEMSELVES IN MAIL-ORDER catalogues for decades”
You sure seem singularly interested in mail-order catalogues, what gives? No real warm-blooded woman or man is interested, so you have to resort to online fantasy rows of pretty faces?
And “decades”? You surely exaggerate. In fact, it wasn’t until after the collapse of Soviet Union and great reforms under the guidance of progressive American idealists and moralists such as yourself that Russian women found out they should NOT be treated equal.
P.S. Getting back to catalogues (you luv those, don’t ya?), how do you explain American strip-clubs? Legal prostitution in some states? Attaching (selling) yourself to a husband for economic reasons instead of love? And most importantly, no equal pay for equal work? Before preaching, look in the mirror and weep.
Oh, a beautifully written piece there, ahansen. And an excellent choice of topic, too.
You know, I’m beginning to suspect that you may be a bit of a rabble-rouser.
* falls off chair laughing uproariously *
Agree Olygal.
ahansen wrote a great article.
You know, I’m beginning to suspect that you may be a bit of a rabble-rouser.
ROFLMAO!
I thought this was funny and I’m a woman. But if home buying were just hardwired in women who breed, then no men would own real estate. I think there are a few single men out there that own. I even know 2 gay men that own together.
On my street there is a lesbian couple that owns their house together. They’re also married*, and they take a yearly anniversary cruise.
One half of this partnership presides over our neighborhood association, and, man, she is tough. Being a veteran of the Marines will do that to you. Don’t get out of line around here, that’s all I’ve gotta say.
*They didn’t tie the knot in this country.
H didn’t want to buy in some neighborhoods because gays owned there.
Well, after all this bubble, he defers to me on neighborhoods.
The house I wanted in the one neighborhood in 97 went from 225k to upper 9s now down to 400’s.The gay neighbhoods tend to gentry really fast. Trick would have been to sell at the peak.
Well I deferred to his “knowledge” and bias.
Net worth not what it could have been.
I thank Ben and you all for so much knowledge and comraderie.
H wouldn’t have wanted to touch this area with a bargepole. It’s quite rainbow-ish, if you get my drift.
“Suzanne researched this”
That commercial was dark and creepy, I can’t imagine it did a lot to excite someone into buying a house. The wife in the commercial was equally creepy and the husband was a wimp.
I think that commercial will long be considered a testament to the housing bubble.
“What?”
“dark and creepy”
Wow, now that you mention it? I recall only seeing it once, maybe twice on TV but it was echoed around the blogosphere and back.
It really seemed like they were reaching, clutching for the last few first time buyers to keep the ponzi afloat. More and more evidence this thing peaked WAY before most of us were willing to admit.
Brings up a good question. Where there -any- known REIC’sters that walked away from this thing whole? I mean, Angelo’s not in jail (yet) but I mean local big-wig realtwhores that cashed out their -entire- portfolios and are on some island in the South Pacific somewhere? Anyone think of any success stories like that?
Our local realtor in Maine sold his building and his business in December of 2005. We’re not talking serious bigwig here, but his timing was indeed good. He tells me he didn’t know how much things would slow down, he just got tired of the hassles, and he and his wife could afford not to be Really Working any more. He still sells some RE but has no expenses (except his license fee I guess).
When I called him up on Memorial Day 2006 and told him I wanted to sell my house immediately because the RE market was going to go into the toilet, he was actually kind of surprised. But he found me a buyer within a few days because I followed his price advice, and because I was willing to give the buyer more than 80% financing (since paid off in full). Anyway he still says that even in the summer of 2006 he didn’t know things were going to get worse (from the REIC point of view), he just got lucky.
His wife sold her rental agency around that time too.
That was a creepy commercial and dark too. Good point.
Agreed on creepiness of that commercial. By comparison with wife, Suzanne looked almost sane (although a bit Stepfordy). Maybe that was the point? Real-TOR to the rescue!
Scary argument that buying horses. Glad I married a city girl.
We’re living in a “horsey” part of CA now. I wasn’t aware how completely weighted towards women the whole business is now; and it’s not just feed, tack, barns, and vet bills, like you’d expect — now they’ve got women going to pricey seminars, following “training” gurus, and investing time and money on horses as if they were their own children. It’s more than a little creepy.
And it can cause divorces, I’ve seen it. There are a lot of women living alone in trailers or tiny cr-pboxes to keep a couple of animals and a “horsewhisperer” fantasy going.
It is indeed more than a little creepy. Here’s another look at this issue.
I thought that pet story was outstanding.
Some fine reporting, from the Arizona Slim Ranch.
It’s more than a little creepy.
Agreed. It’s like when 12 year-old girls hang posters of unicorns and elves and Orlando Bloom on their walls. Now, that’s an entirely valid stage of girlish development, but at some point shouldn’t you grow up just a tad? Give your incredibly expensive riding jhodpurs to a younger up-and-coming-nutter 12 year-old girl?
And replace your childish posters with posters of mushroom species and Hugh Jackman. (For instance.)
Hugh Jackman posters for sure, ahhhhhhhh!
H won’t cotton to that idea. hahaha
How about David Attenborough? (The nature documentarian, as you know.)
I have a photo of him hanging in my bathroom. I printed it off of the Discovery Channel website. I brought it out at my last party (not for the first time, either) and french-kissed him before setting the frame up in a comfy chair so he could participate and make everything that much better.
Maybe your H would be okay with that?
After all—it’s David Attenborough.
After all—it’s David Attenborough.
Absolutely logical.
My betrothed don’t mind when I smooch a picture of the young Stanley Kubrick, neither. Just because he’s so Kubrickian. I wish HAL could come to all our parties, too.
You guys like it creepy? Voila-
http://www.azfamily.com/video/amazing-index.html?nvid=386745
Even ATE-UP thinks that’s Ate-Up…
alpha, did I miss the mane point?
I don’t think those chicks/dudes are “Stable”.
Oh, that gives me an idea for a sequel to “Dances with Wolves”. Brigitte Nielsen could play the lead as a sort of female Kevin Costner. That lady could be her stunt double.
CON tactic, from a husband-
Darling: prices around here are falling so fast– how about we rent the biggest, fanciest house in the neighborhood instead? Parties by the pool, room for guests, etc. It’ll be fun. Be patient with me, I’d just like to watch the market for another year…
–then, over the course of the year, as she goes for coffee with the girls and sees their despair over falling house values and crippling mortgages, she gets the picture (without your having to argue it): buying a house in a falling market is NOT security, NOT stability, NOT the best thing for the kids (who will need financially secure parents for college, etc.)
Florida population fell by 58,000. Good news, but t’aint enough.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/aug/17/171858/florida-population-falls-first-time-46/
I don’t think that’s true, though. What the research omits are those who now live two and three families to a house. Or, for example, the person who buys or rents a dwelling, and has the utilities in his or her name, but has roommates who chip in towards the common bills. Which is a lot more prevalent these days.
Yeah Palmy, I bet it is more shackin’ up than leaving re utilities as a guide…
I wonder if a major hurricane ‘event’ in FL might have the effect of driving out a lot of people, who would then end up staying wherever they evacuated to. A lot of people who left the New Orleans area never came back.
It could alpha, especially now. I lived there for five years, and I could see a clean-out with a Cat 4-5 placed just right. Ask Palmy and Muggy about their thoughts.
Two words to prove that despite the nesting instinct, housing insanity is gender neutral. “Man cave.”
By and large, there are spendthrifts of both sexes, but it may be expressed differently, based on cultural conditioning. You can’t blame estrogen for the SUV. A luxury minivan would do.
‘Did you see the size of that garage’ mutters the male moron at the end of the Suzanne ad. Everyone likes to spend OPM.
Okay, I’m off to primary election eve festivities. I hope my peeps triumph, but I’m gonna eat a ton in any case. And I am rather sad, because I anticipate all sorts of exciting fireworks here, as soon as people finish dinner and settle down with a beer and start delivering even more strong opinions. For what is an HBBer without strong opinions, boldly delivered?
(That’s rhetorical. I don’t actually know of any HBBers without strong opinions. Hahahah!)
But I’ll just see if I can start a good fight over there, in honor of Bens Blog, shall I?
Okay!
Have a nice time Oly. Be safe.
kick a socialist for us!
My love says she loathes misogyny,
Better that, I say, than androgyny,
I’m forced, with haste, to dodge a knee.
Late to the party (as usual), but appreciate your post, ahansen!
Looks like you got ‘em fired up!