Bits Bucket For September 10, 2009
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The Housing Bubble
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
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Name:Ben Jones
Location:Northern Arizona, United States
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First??
do you want to be recognized for your childish ways?
HeLLLLLLLLLLL yes we all do……
Sadly, if it weren’t for my childish ways I wouldn’t have any ways at all.
…Hey, do you wanna see how many times I can spin around on this twirly chair before I arrive at the top and the whole seat falls off onto the floor, or else get so dizzy I barf, or else both at once?
You do? Okay! Here I go!
*begins twirling *
OWWW stop it.. I say STOP IT my head hurts just from watching you spin like a maniac.
I know the beige book is painting a rosy picture, but the road ahead is not going to be smooth.
U.S. Foreclosure Filings Top 300,000 for Sixth Straight Month.
Sept. 10 (Bloomberg) — Foreclosure filings in the U.S. exceeded 300,000 for the sixth straight month as job losses that boosted the unemployment rate to a 26-year high left many homeowners unable to keep up with their mortgage payments.
A total of 358,471 properties received a default or auction notice or were seized last month, according to data provider RealtyTrac Inc. That’s up 18 percent from a year earlier, and down 0.5 percent from July, the Irvine, California-based company said in a statement. One in 357 households received a filing.
Foreclosures rose from a year earlier as companies cut payrolls by 216,000 workers last month, boosting the U.S. jobless rate to 9.7 percent, according to Labor Department data released last week. The rise in unemployment is having a bigger impact than an effort by the U.S. government and banks to modify mortgages and prevent foreclosures, said Morris A. Davis, an assistant real-estate professor at the Wisconsin School of Business.
“The foreclosure numbers are largely unemployment related,” Davis, a former Federal Reserve Board economist, said in an interview. “As long as 15 million Americans are unemployed, record foreclosures will continue.”
Foreclosures aren’t abating even as demand is returning to the U.S. housing market after a three-year slump. The number of contracts to buy previously owned homes rose more than forecast in July and increased for a record sixth consecutive month, while mortgage buyer Freddie Mac said the average price rose 1.7 percent in the second quarter.
Nevada Leads
Nevada had the highest foreclosure rate in August, with one in every 62 households receiving a filing, even with an 8.4 percent decrease in foreclosures from July, RealtyTrac said. August filings were up 53 percent from a year earlier, with 17,902 Nevada properties receiving a foreclosure filing.
The second-highest foreclosure rate in August was recorded in Florida, with one in every 140 households receiving a filing, followed by California, where one in 144 households received a foreclosure filing.
A 9.6 percent month-to-month decrease in filings helped lower Arizona’s foreclosure rate to fourth-highest in August from third-highest in July, RealtyTrac said. One in every 150 Arizona households received a foreclosure filing last month, still more than twice the national average, the company said.
“The foreclosure numbers are largely unemployment related,” Davis, a former Federal Reserve Board economist, said in an interview.
Yeah you keep thinking that. Sorry but the “22% of homeowners underwater” stat beats your “9.7% unemployment” stat, hands down.
I agree.
“The foreclosure numbers are largely unemployment related.”
Au contraire: The unemployment numbers are NOW largely foreclosure related. Although I admit that the housing bubble itself was largely related to an absence of legitimate employment.
Although I admit that the housing bubble itself was largely related to an absence of legitimate employment.
Precisely, az.
‘They’ are still lying to us. The US is still losing jobs like mad. Over 500,000 last month and probably 2,000,000 more lost by the end of the year. Jimmy Carter is loving it. He’ll go down as the 2nd worst President. Keep it up Barry. No modifications either. That program sure was a bust !!!
Come to think about it, what ever happened to anything he promised? Credit Card reform which failed to address the main issues and not till some time next year. A stimulus bill which went south for almost a trillion dollars. A health care bill no one wants…
I doubt McSame would have been any better, but damn it Jim, we needed a strong leader who could take the helm of a distressed ship in stormy waters. Blaming all this on Bush is nice - he was notably absent during the beginning of the collapse last year, and to a great extent is probably right on, but there will be lots of time for finger pointing and this is not it!
Blaming the job losses on Obama? Pray tell how he created this mess, I’m all ears…
How about the massive effort to prop up failed banks and other failed business models that was started under Bush, and turbocharged earlier this year by Obama?
This is a huge number. Let’s say there are 100M households in the USA. A rate of 300k foreclosures a month works out to about 333 months for everyone to be foreclosed, which is around 28 years. The common term for a home loan is 30 years. In some sense therefore, this number means that the rate of foreclosures is the same order of magnitude as the rate of house purchase. This is like a Christmas season at Toys R Us where every toy purchased is returned. Not a good thing.
(Yeah yeah some folks buy homes cash down, others finance for 15 years, others are serial homebuyers and yet others don’t every buy. I get that)
When we relocated to San Diego about 3 years ago, both the wife and I were bombarded by family and co-workers, they couldn’t grasp why we weren’t rushing out to buy a $600-$900K shack and preferred to rent for $2K per month, the horror. One particularly outspoken critic was living in a ~$1M neighborhood and suggested we shop around in her area. Well, well, we just found out they were foreclosed on, she claims she didn’t know he had a neg-am and their payment would double. LMFAO. Are people really that freakin’ clueless?
Trust me they are….they why i cant get a job….they don’t hire people who can think outside the box anymore.
550,000 new weekly jobless claims coupled with a dearth of job openings does not strike me as very stable.
U.S. Initial Jobless Claims Fell to 550,000 Last Week (Update2)
By Courtney Schlisserman
Sept. 10 (Bloomberg) — The number of Americans filing first-time claims for jobless benefits dropped last week to the lowest level since July, a sign the labor market is deteriorating at a slower pace.
Applications fell by 26,000 to 550,000 in the week ended Sept. 5, lower than economists forecast, from a revised 576,000 the week before, Labor Department data showed today in Washington. The total number of people collecting unemployment insurance declined to the lowest level since April.
Employment may be starting to stabilize after 20 straight months of job losses, economists said. A return to job growth, meanwhile, is likely months away as companies delay hiring new workers. The latest Bloomberg News monthly survey showed the unemployment rate will reach 10 percent by early next year.
“There’s still a lot of trouble out there, but as conditions improve that should show in the claims data,” Maxwell Clarke, chief U.S. economist at IDEAglobal in New York, said before the report. “As the economic outlook improves, the need to layoff employees comes down.”
…
OK, so the US economy lost only (wink wink) 240,000 jobs in July. So obviously these 550,000 first-time claims for unemployment compensation are mostly loafers. They just haven’t looked hard enough for all those new jobs that were counted in the loss-of-only-240000 calculation. Wink wink.
Az -got something in your eye?! wink wink.
Here is something to put into the pie, a few corps actually offer a job share kind of deal. Which means 2 ppl have 1 job, making them work 1/2 time each. So the job might not be lost, OR the job is lost, but it affects TWO ppl.
We have that situation here. Offered for October onward.
And how are they counting all of these “voluntary furloughs”, where they are forcing the salaried-exempts to talk unpaid “leaves/vacations”?
Some of my former buddies were told they were required to take 8 weeks off, unpaid, between June 1 and December 1. …..on top of their regular paid vacation.
The government still considers them “employed”. Looks like they are about “3/4 employed” to me. I guess the government rounds off to the whole number.
EXACTLY.
The Numbers are completely skewed/skrewd and inaccurate.
Or hidden.
Yup. The jobs creation data in Canada net positive by 27,100 jobs, but out of the jobs created 30,600 were part-time! Full-time jobs declined by 3,500.
Pretty pathetic overall. Even in the technical trade press, there were some concerns that the recent “recovery” might not be sustainable. The fight between inflation and deflation is on!
P.S. Add a zero to the end to see the relative scale to the US labor market.
I’m beginning to wonder if it is possible to have deflation and currency devaluation at the same time. If so I’d like to call it deflatuation.
(though I’m sure AS thought of that last night)
In New Future, all will be employed… for a few hours a week. We can’t have anything derail the Stock Market Rocket to the Moon! Now, I need to fertilize the green shoots with more BS!
Or they’re expecting folks who lost real, good paying jobs to apply for menial part time jobs? I guess a 20/hr per week $8/hr job is a reasonable replacement for a $90K per year full time job. And they wonder why people need to be bribed to buy cars, houses, etc.
Welcome to the early 80’s recession. Quite a few degreed people were working for pizza places.
Please explain these figures. Are these monthly claims or weekly? it couldnt possibly be weekly or there would be no one left.
* The Wall Street Journal
* CAREERS
* SEPTEMBER 10, 2009
Job Openings Fell to Record Low in July
By KELLY EVANS
Employers appear to be in no rush to hire back the millions who lost their jobs in the recession, despite signs of improvement in the economy.
The U.S. had a record low 2.4 million job openings in July, the Labor Department said Wednesday, the fewest since the department started tracking the figure in 2000, and half the peak of 4.8 million in mid-2007.
…
And when they are ready, Corporate America will be hiring in India, China, Brazil, etc.
I read an article the other day that predicted that even after the jobless recovery does kick in that consumer spending will only return to 86% of its peak. It also predicted that new car sales will be much closer to the “slump” rate of 10 million per year than the peak of 16-17 million.
Sorry Corporate America, this is what happens when you fire your customers. But what does Wall St. care?
HPQ share prices have soared from $25 to $46 in the past 6 months while its sales and profits have tanked YOY, even when including the revenue from its new EDS subsidiary.
What gives? There is no way that printer and computer sales are going to bounce back to peak levels. And Mr. Hurd will soon run out of 1st worlders to lay off. Yet Wall St. applauds and the stock price nearly doubles.
Sorry Corporate America, this is what happens when you fire your customers. But what does Wall St. care?
That is it. They are firing all their employees and making sure their customer-one in the same- can’t afford to buy their imported product.
It was working great when EZ credit was there to replace our lost incomes. No one ever wonder what was going to happen when the Credit Card monster croaked?
It’s hard to locate this news item in the US financial press.
canada dot com
Hiring plans in U.S. are at a record low point
News Services
September 9, 2009
U.S. employers’ hiring plans for the fourth quarter fell to a record low, underscoring the Federal Reserve’s warning that the economic recovery will be restrained by weakness in the labour market.
Manpower Inc., the world’s second-largest provider of temporary workers, said its employment gauge for the final three months of 2009 fell to -3%, after adjusting for seasonal variations. It fell to records in each of the prior two quarters, coming in at -2% for the July- to-September period and -1% for April through June.
That is kind of odd. I’ve been wondering how manipulated our news is.
When you get data from the many reports out there, its interesting what you get when you compare it to the summaries.
Wonder who is doing this? Lots of people with fingers in the pot.
“I know the beige book is painting a rosy picture, but the road ahead is not going to be smooth.”
The road is long
With many a winding turn
That leads us to who knows where
Who knows when
But I’m strong
Strong enough to carry him
He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother.
So on we go
His welfare is of my concern
No burden is he to bear
We’ll get there
For I know
He would not encumber me
If I’m laden at all
I’m laden with sadness
That everyone’s heart
Isn’t filled with the gladness
Of love for one another.
It’s a long, long road
From which there is no return
While we’re on the way to there
Why not share
And the load
Doesn’t weigh me down at all
He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother.
He’s my brother
He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother.
-Rufus Wainwright
I even cry when I READ that song. Thanks SF.
‘We’ almost chose this for our grad song.
‘We’ chose another. ‘Blowing in the wind’- UGggggggggggggg
300 of us sang badly.
U.S. Trade Deficit Widens Most Since 1999 on Imports.
Sept. 10 (Bloomberg) — The U.S. trade deficit widened in July and imports gained by a record in percentage terms as demand for cars, computers and oil increased.
The gap between imports and exports increased 16 percent, the most in more than a decade, to $32 billion from a revised $27.5 billion in June that was larger than previously estimated, the Commerce Department said today in Washington. Imports soared 4.7 percent, outpacing a 2.2 percent gain in exports.
Automakers boosted production in response to the Obama administration’s “cash-for-clunkers” program, increasing purchases of imported components and machinery. Exports are also recovering as the global economy starts to pull out of its worst slump since World War II, raising demand for U.S.-made goods.
“The auto sector was ramping up output and that accelerated imports of industrial supplies, capital goods and raw materials and parts,” John Herrmann, chief economist at Herrmann Forecasting in Summit, New Jersey, said before the report. Exports, meanwhile, will continue “growing through the rest of the year,” he said.
The trade gap was projected to widen to $27.3 billion, from an initially reported $27 billion in June, according to the median forecast in a Bloomberg News survey of 74 economists. Deficit projections ranged from $25 billion to $30.3 billion.
Imports rose to $159.6 billion after also increasing the prior month. The import figures reflected a rise in crude oil prices and demand for cars, automotive parts, goods such as computers and televisions and industrial supplies.
I’ve always been curious about the trade deficit. We have been running one for a long time. Now if it is American owned companies overseas that we are enriching then it really isn’t as bad as it seems I suppose. I am not entirely sure how this number is created, but if year after year we spend more for imports than we gain from exports then how is it that we do not eventually go bankrupt? Clearly there has to be more factors at play here than I’m aware of.
Fecaltime!
As i understand it the money flow is somewhat circular.
You have a trade deficit with the corner store, which never buys anything from you. But that store does by supplys and products from other sources, and you might work for one of those sources, and they pay you. So (most of ) your money is returned to you.
Some small imbalance could exist forever without anyone going broke.
———-
When trade imbalances between countries become greater and so much wealth is lost (by buying more than they sell) that it starts to affect the deficit country’s economy, the exchange rate of their currency changes. That country’s money is worth less than before.
As a result, it costs citizens more “dollars” to buy imported goods, and imports fall off. And foreign countries can buy more from that deficit country for the same amount of their “yen” or “euros” so demand for cheaper products rises, and exports rise in the deficit country.
So the system sort of balances itself…. normally.. but not always. A lot depends on the overall wealth of the nations in question. Wealthy nations have the resources to survive a severe deficit where a poor country might go broke.
——-
near as i can figure, products imported from American owned foreign companies do add to the deficit side of our trade equation.
“So the system sort of balances itself…. normally.. but not always.”
The system will always balance itself, eventually. The greater the imbalance, the more violent the correction.
Eventually, yeah.
My point was that a poor nation with few or no resources or options might go bankrupt before the forces of correction have time to act.
There may be a sudden increased demand for it’s exports, but producing products for export requires money… (supplies, raw materials, investment in industry, labor costs, etc.).
If some poor nation is flat broke and cannot borrow money, it cannot afford to recover.
i guess a post was eaten..
The system will always balance itself
..but not always
It costs lots of money to manufacture goods for export. (labor, materials, manufacturing facilities, etc.) If production for export has been reduced for a long time, it may be impossible to ramp up again.
If a small, poor country has no money due to a large trade deficit, and can’t borrow any money, there may be a new demand for it’s exports, but they may be unable to provide those products for export.
The situation is trying to correct itself, but that poor country can’t afford to produce anything for sale..
otoh, Wealthier countries likely have untapped resources or have other options, like credit.
Increasing trade deficits also may reflect the dilution of a nation’s currency, correlation or causation?
Yo thanks Joey,
I appreaciate that explanation. I’m a little less fuzzy but still have a way to go!
Fecaltime!
That’s why we need tarrifs instead of higher taxes. Why should we buy China’s crap when they have slave labor to manufacture products with no environmental restrictions or labor protection? Just crazy. In the initial years of the republic until about 1930 something, give or take a few decades, we had no income tax. The Feds got their money from tarrif on imports. I posit we go back to that, or at least s.t. along the lines of a level playing field.
Now if it is American owned companies overseas that we are enriching then it really isn’t as bad as it seems I suppose??????????????
1. Have you seen the unemployment numbers
2. How many foreigners own US stock, exactly how does this benefit us.
3. The elite hedge their money when inflation comes, those working for a living get the crap kicked out of them.
How can WE hedge? Seriously, I’d like to know.
The best hedge for inflation is buying something that generates a real product without other inputs that can be sold for cash (ie house/oil well/farm) with as much fixed rate debt as you can. The debt will be paid with money that declines in value while the resources generated by the asset can be sold for increasingly larger amounts of currency. Taken to an extreme, a chicken would produce enough eggs today to more than pay for a house loan taken out prior to inflation in Zimbabwae.
In Montana, didn’t you get the memo? We little people aren’t supposed to hedge. That’s an activity that’s reserved for the Masters of the Universe.
Are you sure you want to know?
To hedge means we have something to lose, can asses risk, and know how to protect ourselves..
“We” don’t want to hedge. To hedge means we are the elite meatson refers to..
learn Mandarin.
I was in Acapulco about 15 years ago with a buddy. Mexico’s economy was in the toilet, tourism was abysmal, there were hardly any Americans in town. So one night we go out to eat at a smaller restaurant, one guy handling the store, one cook in the kitchen, no one else dining. The guy was 20-something, charming, spoke very good English. He spent a very long time attempting to sell us on some “very clean” “friends” of his who were attending university and were just looking for some extra money to make ends meet. At least he didn’t say they were his sisters. We declined.
Mmm, well at my age I was thinking more along the lines of stocks. Would an equity index fund tend to float upward with other prices?
I’m at sea here, obviously.
Hedging is just protecting yourself from some sort of risk. Everything is OK now, but you think things will change.
To hedge against something, first you have to decide what it is you expect to happen. Lets say you predict increased inflation.
You then look at all your assets and see how inflation will affect their values. The price / value of some things will keep up with inflation, some might rise, and some might fall.
Cash sitting in the bank will buy less if inflation increases. To hedge, you could spend some portion of that money on something that rises in price with inflation, like real estate. Or, if you don’t wanna get your hands dirty, you might invest in property related stocks or mutual funds.
How much you should spend/buy depends on your assessment of the risk factors.
—
To hedge a stock position (or a whole portfolio) and protect yourself from a market decline, you probably want to use options..
//
ragingbull.quote.com/bullseye/node/143
First decide what you’re trying to protect yourself from.. then assess the risk to the individual things you own. Then move things around so, if your prediction comes true, you either gain the most or loose the least.
of course, you could be wrong in your prediction.. hedging can cost money . Consult a broker for advice…
Consult a broker if you’d like to be broker.
1. yes
2. A lot
3. Hasn’t that always been the case
I think I saw something on the trade deficit at oftwominds that showed if you took out all the American owned businesses from the trade deficit, we actually had a tiny deficit. So, most of the profits were headed to the US and all the crappy low paying jobs stayed in china.
Of course all the crappy low paying jobs in China result in us having no jobs at all here.
Can’t compete with slave labor. No way, no how.
I hear ya meastom.
I was pondering about whether it was critical that we have a positive number for our ‘balance of trade’. Clearly American companies employing other nation’s people doesn’t sound like it is all that beneficial to our citizens. Perhaps there are some hidden benefits I’m not entirely aware of, so I am open to learning about these, as all I see now is a growing sea of unemployed in the US.
Fecaltime!
Joey calls measton “meatson” (LOL)
Fecaltime calls measton “meastom”
Well, steam-on, I think those actually working do better in an inflationary environment than those who (a) thought they could afford to stop working or (b) are involuntarily jobless. Agree there is an elite less injured, as they can afford some losses.
“steam-on”
Isn’t that what Humidity Man would yell on Super Friends before turning into a cloud of water vapor?
Thanks measton, you’ve promoted me to elite. Is there some sort of certificate or signet ring to go along with the promotion?
The US $$$ is the world’s medium of exchange, and we can print as many of them as we want. So we can purchase manufactured products from foreign and just exchange green pieces of paper (or equivalent electrons).
The upside is that we get to be a 75% consumer driven economy instead of having to produce the same as we consume. The downside is that we lose our manufacturing base and with it our engineering and high value skill-sets. So that if the world ever decides not to use our currency as the world’s medium of exchange, our standard of living plummets to that of the 3rd world.
But nobody really cares because people believe the free market will fix it.
Oh it will “fix” it alright. Just not in the way hyper consuming Americans hope it will. The bright side is that we wil start making our own junk again. Its the interim that will be very painful.
The US $$$ is the world’s medium of exchange
Not so much anymore.
“The upside is that we get to be a 75% consumer driven economy instead of having to produce the same as we consume. The downside is that we lose our manufacturing base and with it our engineering and high value skill-sets.”
Uhm, you forgot to mention that the upside is temporary, and it’s all downside in the long run.
From yesterday’s WSJ - “U.S. exports were down 22% from a year earlier, but imports were down 31%.”
How low will they go??
So was Smoot-Hartley really responsible for the decrease in trade in the Great Depression?
“The U.S. trade deficit widened in July and imports gained by a record in percentage terms as demand for cars, computers and oil increased.”
It’s a good thing that GM and Chrysler were rescued to meet this surge in demand. Oh wait…
“The gap between imports and exports increased 16 percent, the most in more than a decade, to $32 billion…”
“…the median forecast in a Bloomberg News survey of 74 economists. Deficit projections ranged from $25 billion to $30.3 billion”
ALL 74 Economists were off on their forecasts, and by a wide margin!
I doubt even one of these economists looked at the underlying data that goes into the calculation. 73 of the economists probably followed the forecast of the first one, and adjusted a little just so he/she did not repeat the exact same number.
Bloomberg needs to find better economists to interview!
I doubt even one of these economists looked at the underlying data
I am of a thought that just because you got your degree in economics and now tout yourself as a high fallutin Economist, doesn’t mean you understand basic math.
Really, not all folks who are smart, have a lick of sense.
Like, not all blondes are dumb, they just play one on tv. hehe
Desertdweller,
You may enjoy this little OT tidbit:
Hedy Lamarr:
“ Any girl can be glamorous. All you have to do is stand still and look stupid.”
“Often called “The Most Beautiful Woman in Films,” Hedy Lamarr’s beauty and screen presence made her one of the most popular actresses of her day…..
As if being a beautiful, talented actress was not enough, Hedy was also extremely intelligent. In addition to her film accomplishments, Hedy patented an idea that later became the crutch of both secure military communications and mobile phone technology. In 1942, Hedy and composer George Antheil patented what they called the “Secret Communication System.” The original idea, meant to solve the problem of enemies blocking signals from radio-controlled missiles during World War II, involved changing radio frequencies simultaneously to prevent enemies from being able to detect the messages. While the technology of the time prevented the feasibility of the idea at first, the advent of the transistor and its later downsizing made Hedy’s idea very important to both the military and the cell phone industry.”
http://www.hedylamarr.com/about/biography.htm
She would know, wouldn’t she? I luv that quote.
Fabulous. Thanks Carrie Ann!
Half the movies in the 20-30s were written by women. They were very good. Then…
I think the paper clip was invented by a woman.
And quite a few other goodies.
Bank of China’s Zhu Sees ‘Bubbles’ in Asset Markets
Sept. 10 (Bloomberg) — Bank of China Ltd., which led the nation’s $1.1 trillion lending spree in the first half, said ample liquidity has caused “bubbles” in stocks, commodities and real estate.
“The potential risk is that a lot of liquidity goes to the asset market,” Vice President Zhu Min said in an interview in Dalian today. “So you see asset bubbles in commodities, stocks and real estate, not only in China, but everywhere.”
China’s record credit expansion, which helped the country’s economy expand 7.9 percent in the second quarter, has raised concerns that bank loans have been diverted and used to buy stocks and real estate, fueling unsustainable gains in equity and property markets.
“There’s no way for the real economy to absorb so much liquidity,” said Liu Yuhui, a Beijing-based economist at Chinese Academy of Social Science. ”Policymakers in China and around the world are well aware of the harm that could do, but they are unwilling to sacrifice short-term growth and wean the economy from addiction to the stimulus policies.”
The Shanghai Stock Exchange Composite Index has gained 61 percent this year, compared with a 20 percent increase in the MSCI World Index of 1,659 companies. House prices in China’s 70 biggest cities rose at the fastest pace in 11 months on record lending and climbing confidence, according to a National Bureau of Statistics report today.
I’m shocked! Who could have known? WOW!
It’s not like we haven’t been doing this for the last 20 years. In addition to guaranteeing everything, we’re now creating billets out of thin air just to keep things propped up and transactions humming.
Is the Chinese model in our future — endless Big Brother induced spending and recovery reports from the front?
China, Bernanke, and the price of gold
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard Economics Last updated: September 7th, 2009
China has issued what amounts to the “Beijing Put” on gold. You can make a lot of money, but you really can’t lose.
I happened to see quite a bit of Cheng Siwei at the Ambrosetti Workshop, a gathering of politicians and global strategists at Lake Como, including a dinner at Villa d’Este last night at which he listened very attentively as a number of American guests tore President Obama’s economic and health policy to shreds.
Mr Cheng was until recently Vice-Chairman of the Communist Party’s Standing Committee, and is now a sort of economic ambassador for China around the world — a charming man, by the way, who left Hong Kong for mainland China in 1950 at the age of 16, as young idealist eager to serve the revolution. Sixty years later, he calls himself simply “a survivior”.
What he said about US monetary policy and gold – this bit on the record – would appear to validate the long-held belief of gold bugs that China has fundamentally lost confidence in the US dollar and is going to shift to a partial gold standard through reserve accumulation.
…
“So you see asset bubbles in commodities, stocks and real estate, not only in China, but everywhere.”
Bubbles in the air
Bubbles, bubbles, everywhere
See the bubbles pop
Oh, but he did lie. The health care bill as it now stands, does not require proof of citizenship. Republican amendments to require proof have been defeated by democrats. Instead of being outraged at Wilson, where/s the outrage at Obama for the lie?
The last thing I want to pay for is health care for 11 million illegals. Wheres the savings in that?
The outrage isn’t if Obama/the Dems are in fact offering health care to illegal aliens and lying about it, it’s that during a Presidential speech to joint session of Congress there is an appropriate protocol for do’s and don’ts. It isn’t a campaign event and it isn’t a townhall meetings with activists, there is a basic respect for the office of the Presidency that should be shown during a live televised speech to the nation. If you want to call them liars, feel free to do so at legislative hearings and vote no. If Bush had been in that position and someone called him a liar on live TV when he mentions WMD in Iraq, would would the right wing say? If you don’t get this, you are hopeless.
I usually don’t respond to political posts, but this is BS. BTW, I did not vote for Obama, so don’t try labeling me.
I support republitards acting like tards 100%.
Go republitards! Go authoritarian extremists!!!! Go Go Go!!!
What’s it like being the only person to understand everything with such authority and to be so cocksure of one’s beliefs? I can imagine it’s just like the way a fanatical extremist muslim bent on jihad feels about his one true gawd and the correctness of his religious beliefs. Is it?
My sentiments exactly!
Already forgotten how the Dems booed during Bush’s 2005 state of the union speech?
Oh wait, it’s ok for liberal congresscritters to boo a republican.
Booing and hissing are actually ACCEPTABLE acts, whether by Dems or Republicans. It would be weird if the opposition just sit there in complete silence without any reaction. However, calling the president a liar right in the middle of his speech to a point where he had to stop is where a line should be drawn. If a Dem did that to Bush while he states Iraq had WMD in such joint session of Congress it wouldn’t be right either.
Again this should not be a Dems vs. Reps thing, both parties do plenty of dumb-ass things enough already. I am sick of one party doing one thing and saying it’s ok but when another does the same then it is not ok, depending on who is in power or whatever. Country has enough problem and all we get is bunch of adults acting like children crying who started it first.
Are you really putting “booing” in the same category of what Joe Wilson did last night
Bill ??
. If a Dem did that to Bush
We would have never ever seen that dem again aka “patriot act’ and that person might have been water boarded cause
“it ain’t torture”. For sure they would have or already were wire tapped.
oh BS
I don’t give a good god damn what you think of me as a person, but don’t you ever disrespect the office of the President. Harry Truman to Gen. MacAurthur, Wake Island 1950 on making the presidents plane wait for the general to land.
Allegedly.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19760106&id=XCIWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2REEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7130,1025171
More on Gen. Douglas MacArthur. In June 1932 he disobeyed a direct order from his CIC, Pres. Hoover, and sent troops over a bridge into the Anacostia portion of the Bonus Army camp to set it afire. Pres. Hoover did not punish him for this, but instead took full responsibility for what happened. The nation was outraged over Hoover’s push against the Bonus Army. This episode helped defeat Hoover in his campaign against FDR that fall. Later FDR cut the Army’s budget. MacArthur went to see this CIC. MacArthur said to Roosevelt, “When we lose the next war and an American boy is writhing in pain in the mud with a Japanese bayonet in his belly, I want the last words that he spits out in the form of a curse to be not against Douglas MacArthur but against Franklin Roosevelt.” FDR was enraged, and he said, “Never speak to the President of the United States that way.” And MacArthur offered to resign, but Roosevelt brightened and said, “No, no, Douglas, we must get together on this.” This quote was from a PBS episode of “The American Experience”
Finally Pres. Truman fired MacArthur for insubordination during the Korean War.
If, by lying in front of the whole nation, the President exhibits a lack respect for the office of the President, why is it surprising that others might do so?
btw.. was he wagging his finger at us while staring straight into the camera?
“I.. will.. not… provide care to those people.. illegal aliens.”
I missed the show.
Quote section, subpart and paragraph of bill that indicates insurance will be available to illegals.
You’re a liar until then.
Like a blind squirrel, you accidentally tripped over the nut of the problem. There’s nothing to quote.
The Dems will not allow language to be entered into the bill that indicates insurance will or won’t be provided to illegals..
Nice try. It’s not there as you well know because the Dems vote down all Republican attempts to put in language that requires verification of citizenship.
Ergo, illegals will get coverage and care.
Quote section, subpart and paragraph of bill that indicates insurance will be available to illegals.
You’re a liar until then.
jeeze.. i musta really hurt you with my comment.. scratched your brain and now you’re needle is skipping..
sorry dude..
Unless you’re totally ignorant (which I don’t think you are), we all know if it isn’t specifically spelled out that it can’t happen, it WILL happen.
Because, to quote one of your heroes, no one will be able to point to the “controlling legal authority” against illegals.
Why don’t you quote section, and paragraph that indicates insurance will be available to “only US citizens”.
Really, you can’t be this naiive? Everyone in the country knows that Congress can’t/won’t write a Bill, without leaving loopholes big enough that their chosen constituents can drive trucks (or in this case, cargo vans stuffed with 30-40 illegals) thru.
“Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.”
But that *really* means something else…. and the president *really* meant something else when he stated no illegals will be covered.
You mis-interpreters need help.
those affordability credits are interesting..
First the IRS sends all your info to Obamacare’s “Health Choices Commissioner” (another czar i guess) and to state health programs .. (goodbye privacy) Then they decide if you qualify for the credits. You may or may not depending on your income.
They stuck these dumb “credits” in because everyone will be required to get health insurance, and some will not have the money to pay it..
While poor illegals cannot get them (yeah right) i don’t see why a rich illegal can’t just pay the premium out of pocket like everyone else.
Joey take a breath.
Wilson’s ‘Lie’ Remark Floods Foe with Cash
By Jonathan Allen | September 10, 2009 9:11 AM | Permalink | Comments (1)
Democrat Rob Miller’s campaign war chest just got a whole lot heavier.
Miller is the Marine Corps veteran challenging Rep. Joe Wilson, the South Carolina Republican who took the opportunity afforded by a joint session of Congress on Wednesday to yell “Lie. You lie,” at President Barack Obama.
Progressive Democrats took that as a cue to donate to his opponent, and accounts earmarked for Miller on the progressive Website Actblue jumped from a few thousand dollars to $105,943 between the speech and 9:15 a.m. on Thursday.
At least nine different Miller-linked funds appear to have been created since the speech, including one called “Defeating the man who yelled ‘liar’ at Obama: Goodbye Rep Joe Wilson’ that had collected more than $500,000 overnight.
Wilson beat an underfunded Miller with 53.7 percent of the vote in 2008.
$50 of that $500,000 is my contribution.
Miller owed $450k so pay off his debts libs. Where can I send money to a Rep with guts enough to shout the truth when we’re being lied to? Steelers -6 vs Titans. I’ll still take the Steelers!
Damn straight!!! Are you ready for your mandatory sex change operation? And don’t get pregnant Pismo…. you’ll be wheeled right into the abortion clinic and the President will personally administer your abortion…. it’s true!!!
Darn. I sent $25 this morning to Joe Wilson for Congress, and now I learn that exeter is turning that election into a bubble with his $50 contribution to Wilson’s opponent.
Least we forget it was the Dems who booed at one of the Shrubs state of the union speaches. Food fight-Food fight-Food fight.
And in an extraordinary display of decorum and respect for the office, they chanted
na na na na hey hey good bye
as W and Laura descended the steps of the podium on 0bama’s inauguration day.
Classy
(I believe ecckseter was there that day, wearing sneakers, and acting retarted.)
If they did you have to admit, W got us into this financial boondoggle and into a war by lying, a war that wasn’t needed, which bleeds billions by the minute.
I respectfully disagree.
By your logic, if the President is spewing lies to the American people, our reps should sit quietly and listen?
The president is a citizen like you and I. He shouldn’t be treated like royalty. If he throws BS, he should be called on it. I don’t want a government of protocols, courtesies and unchallenged BS.
He can give all the uninterrupted televised speeches he wants from the White House, but when you enter the House of Reps, you better be ready to face the people. I want my rep beating the hell out of him. Not just clapping and standing like some party buffoon. Which is exactly what he does.
If your rep is just muck-raking and shouting aimlessly. Vote’em out. But if he’s screaming out reason and common sense, I want to hear it.
And would you have a problem if a Dem started interrupting the live response the Republican gives after a televised Presidential address that typically happens right afterward? Let’s say the Dem walks into the area where the Republican response is being televised live and started shouting “Liar” whenever the Republican is trying to make a point that contradicts Obama’s speech he just gave minutes earlier. Would that be acceptable? If not, why not?
And why stop there? Why not interrupt swear-in ceremony of any politician you don’t agree with when taking the oath of office and making the typical swear-in speech if you feel like he or she is lying? I can go on and on.
I don’t know cougar.
I get the sense we getting to the point where the debate is over.
+ 1 “again” for Cougar…
Just like to point out: I did not vote for Obama and I happen to think this health care reform effort, while well intentioned, is doomed to fail, not because Republicans & insurance co. will block it, it is because the Obama and Dems are not truthful about the need to cost-contain health care in the future (hence some sort of rationing) since the GDP will NOT support this type of health care outlay/inflation into perpetuity, whether there is a reform bill or not.
Health care rationing, in one way or another, is coming whether there is a bill or not. How we get there is under debate now.
“Let’s say the Dem walks into the area where the Republican response is being televised live and started shouting “Liar”
It’s easy to take things to the Nth degree. We could sit outside a pol’s house during Thanksgiving and yell if we wanted to…I could yell outside his office all day…
I’m talking specifically about the President, coming to the House of Reps and sitting quietly while some people think he’s lying.
To take it to the Nth degree in the other direction, what if during the presidents speech he says “we didn’t help these banks at all, Afghanistan will be all set by the end of the month”. Would you want your rep to sit quietly? I wouldn’t.
We already have health care rationing. It’s based on the ability to pay.
Yep ,cougar 91 ……rationing is coming in one form or another,actually it is already being done . if any Administration
can get cost down ,and remove waste ,than less rationing has to be done . I just don’t like a Private Insurance Company rationing to increase profits . I think your spot on in saying that cost containment is the issue . I don’t know ,I think health care should move into non-profit . There will still be a lot of jobs in the industry ,your just shaving the Insurance profit cost off
the top .
I thought plenty of hospitals and insurers were nonprofit already. BCBS and the local hospitals here are nonprofit. Should the doctors be working for just some set salary? I’ve got a dynamite orthopedic surgeon with a prosperous sports med practice, not sure he’d go for that.
I don’t understand way people think that Private Insurance Companies have improved the health care of the Nation . The government is capable of pooling money to pay for costs ,just as the profit motive Insurance companies are . Look,the Insurance Companies have not proven they are good faith ,and they demand the right to be profit motive and hassle people on insurance claims ,or worse, delay coverage while they haggle ,or cancel a person who is high risk .
Take a look some time at their appeal process on a claim ,so one sided and bogus .
I don’t know if the Doctors would have to accept just working for a salary . I think I was just talking about shaving the profits
of the Private Insurance Company . These Insurance companies are paper pushers that are just adding extra steps to the health
care equation .
I’ve got news for everyone……health care is “rationed” already.
The private insurance companies have done it by:
-Co-pays, and not paying for “costs in excess of plan” (in which case, my doctor sends me another bill for the difference).
-Due to the various financial incentives/dis-incentives, we have way too many “specialists”, and not nearly enough “general practitioners”.
The insurance companies and Medicare designed the system, and the health-care industry has redesigned itself to play the system, to generate as much revenue as possible.
The only new construction going on around here, are the new offices for the “specialists”………..who are building more rooms/workstations, so they can admit more patients per hour.
Private business created your cellphone contract, which is solely designed by their lawyers to cover them, and screw their customers.
(Of course, I’m biased………now that I am becoming an independent contractor (not by my choice), I’m finding that if you are over 50, and aren’t in perfect health, health insurance isn’t available at ANY PRICE.
(Can’t do the COBRA deal, former company went Chptr. 11).
Contrary to the Republican “make the pie bigger” propaganda, they (and the Chinese) realize we live in a finite world, and are grabbing as much as they can, while they can.
What about the fraud they eliminate in order to keep their profit margins up? The main argument against putting the government in charge of healthcare is they are so inefficient in terms of graft, corruption, fraud, and plain old waste. Not to mention that I don’t believe you can name a single government service that gives a damn what your “customer service” experience is. Despite all the screw ups of insurance companies denying medical care, it sure does appear that hospitals are getting the money they need to do things like buy MRI machines, create surgical theaters, and do downright amazing things like face transplants.
Secondly, everyone argues that the US spends more money per capital on health care than Canada, UK, France, Germany, etc… Well, what number is that measuring exactly?
For instance, the US number is 6k per person per year afaik vs UK 3k / yr . Well how much of that 6k is optional medical procedures that wouldn’t be provided in Govt run healthcare; for instance, laser eye surgery, boob jobs, nose jobs, all the rest of optional plastic surgery, and other more useful but still optional procedures like vein stripping, wart removal, physical therapy, and hemroid removal?
Are we in fact comparing apples to apples? I’m not sure, i just want to know!
Oh FGS. You really think Wilson’s behavior was acceptable? What the he** is wrong with you anyway?
It wasn’t acceptable only because The One is a Democrat and the culprit was a Republican.
+1 to Asparagus.
Remember this? And the libtard Dems DIDN’T apologize! I guess that make them bigger a$$wipes.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/09/10/flashback_democrats_boo_bush_at_2005_state_of_the_union.html
If Wilson was a Democrat, his behavior would be seen as patriotic protest and the guy would be a hero.
‘Nuff said.
Excusing inexcusable behavior by saying “but the other guys booed the President 4 years ago!” won’t fly in any household in the world (but Mom, HE did it FIRST!) and is an equally lame excuse in politics. You don’t even have to be a mom to know that.
You don’t even have to be a mom to know that.
+1000000000000000
Asparagus The Office of President is to be respected. That is what the republicans told us, so why can’t ‘you’ guys honor the presidents presence?
Your tv channel selection is showing.
I have not mentioned one party or president. IMHO, in our government, it’s the House of Reps duty to stand up to the executive branch. Checks and balances.
When the Pres walks into the House of Reps, I want him to know this is where his power hits a wall.
For me, this is not a Rep/Dems issue. It’s a Democracy issue.
Don’t get wrapped up in the Fox/liberal media game. Operate on a higher level.
Okay, Will do, asparagus. That channel is abhorrent with its lies and schadenfreud.
Medicare is already being CUT. Next year reimbursement will be reduced 17%. O needs to take 500 bil out of Medicare the next 10 years for his risky scheme. Read Baccus’s ‘bill’ on line . He put it up yesterday. WE WILL get rationing and less care. The Messiah is lying.
Calling President Obama “The Messiah”, and “Barry”, really weakens your argument and shows quite a bit of immaturity and bitterness on your part.
+1 cougar…
+ another 1, cougar.
My favorite part was live this morning on CNBC watching Wilson come out and talk to the camera and try to explain himself. The poor dolt looked like he’d been chewed mercilessly for a good long time.
Then some dingle exclaimed over the good news that foreclosures appear to be stabilizing! Hooray!
…I didn’t even get time to shout at the teevee before Diana Olick, looking pert and darlin’ in a very pretty purplish shirt, disagreed and said that there are plenty more foreclosures headed down the pipeline.
So, a good start to the day.
Cougar,
On principle I agree with you. Respect for the office requires a certain decorom be maintained in formal settings–like a Presidential speech to a joint session.
But it’s such great good fun to watch our legislative body in action, why should we impinge on the entertainment value by restricting their bad manners? The Brits have managed to maintain a parlimentary government that allows for spirited free-for-all debates and even outright heckling of the Prime Minister. It’s certainly a lot more enjoyable (and engaging) to watch than all the sycophantic applause vs stoney face shots we get here in the US.
“Order! Order! This sort of commotion must not be allowed! Will someone please remove Mrs. Thatcher from the chamber…?”
Wanna have some fun? Tune into the Prime Minister’s Questions sessions that are held every Wednesday while Parliament is sitting. MPs are given the chance to put questions to the PM for 30 minutes starting at midday.
All the PM heckling you can handle, courtesy of the British Parliament!
Our country would reap a tremendous benefit if we reverted to a 30 election cycle and have our House of Commons Parliamentary just like the Brits. That way, a few things develop, if someone is called on the carpet for lying, it is called out immediately. Instead of running to the TV channel to whine and lie more about it.
Another the cost of elections would go to the funds needed, not for someones “campaign chest”.
Listen folks, I have a “campaign chest” too and would like it to be filled. send checks or paypal. On your mark get set go.
Tell it to the dems who boo’d and snorted when Bush was in front of them in ‘05. How soon leftys forget; must be miss wiring of the old memory neuron. I think the “you lie” is now a massive weight around ‘bammy’s neck. The only way he can “not lie” is by making all illegals “legals”. The end of the world as we know it at that point.
I didn’t vote for him either, but Joe Wilson acted like a child by shouting out like that. No place for it if you are a congressman. This wasn’t a Town Hall meeting after all.
Exactly.
At least the Dems gave W some time to prove himself, even though the Supremes gave it to him illegally………..
So far, the reps have stated since second one, that they hate President Obama, and they will do every single thing they can acting like childish 7th grade girls instead of being helpful initially.
They will rot in ….because..
I suspect he thinks he didn’t lie depending on how he defines “insure illegals”. Could insuring illegals be defined as mechanism by which illegals can pay for and obtain insurance?
Or, are we really talking about free health care for illegals?
Reminds me of the free health care my American daughter got in the UK. I don’t think it bothered the populance too much, but you never know!
Your daughter must be a really good swimmer.
Anyone, ANYONE can walk into a regionally designated critical care facility and get necessary treatment. Additionally the US maintains a system of public health clinics to ensure that public health issues such as communicable diseases and child wellness are addressed. These are “sliding fee” operations, and are heavily utilized by immigrant populations, legal and illegal. To pretend that they do not exist, or that their treatment of illegal aliens will be discontinued with the passage of a care reform act, while not technically a “lie” (I’m sure there is a lot of semantic wriggle room in Obama’s statement,) is certainly disingenuous.
That said, I support the President’s proposal as a workable compromise between dueling and equally ill-informed factions.
Where’s the compromise? (An honest question.) What ground has he given to those who want only tort reform and interstate insurance competition? Are you saying “compromise” because he is not pushing for the British NHS?
I know my favorite president, Mr. Obama is lying on this issue. I agree with you. I just wrote my buddy and and stated that I like my health care as it is and that his proposals are unconstitutional.
What I think is unconstitutional and a crime in fact, is transferring private property from one individual to another based upon the political contributions made by either party.
I wonder how many on the left or right would say it would have been “OK” for Bush to have canceled the medical degrees of Democrat doctors, or seized the bank accounts of Democrat contributors, or to have forced the foreclosure sales of the homes of registered Democrats and then handed the deeds to registered Republicans? Do you think the NY Times and Daily Kos would still be screaming if Bush had suggested, let alone DONE that?
You heard it here first. The fact that B. Hussein Obama engineered and encouraged, and is now trying to cover-up, the FACT that hundreds if not thousands of car dealerships were taken from Republicans and handed over to Democrat contributors, by his appointees, handling the taxpayer bailouts of GM and Chrysler, is IMHO a crime.
This is what I expect from Chicago mobsters.
Being telegenic or having harped about hope and change does not excuse the crimes.
You’re hyperventilating….. But here are some facts:
88% of campaign donations by auto dealers go to GnOP candidates, 12% to dems.
25% of Chryco dealers were closed.
31 GnOP senators voted against the bailout
151 GnOP congressmen voted against the bailout
GnOP congressman a Chyrsler dealer owner Vern Buchanan voted against the bailout.
The reason no closed dealers could be found that gave to the democrats is not because none were closed… it was because the didn’t exist in the first place.
You think I’m hyperventilating. OK.
I think you’re trying to defend criminal conduct on the part of the Administration and their car czar.
If there were some basis for the accusation, I would be defending but there is no basis. The facts speak louder than the hyperventilating.
Cobalt can only see Demos bad, Repubs good
Where is a link to any data that suggests this happened? I’m assuming it is complete crap till them.
From my long long history with the democrats in Jersey, this is the exact thing I’d expect.
When we had the expansion of emminant dommain from the SC a couple years back, I remember thinking how bad this would go in NJ.
So, some guy that was a retired engineer from Bell Labs had bought up some property along the Raritan River. He was trying to sell it for development in the midst of the bubble. Anyhow, his project had mysterious problems getting zoning approvals. Some of the locals politicos (yes, Dems) got the property siezed because of ED rulling and given at some reduced price to a developer that had given them a bunch of contracts.
Anyhow, same old story. You give power/money to the government and the spoils will go to the cronies.
The rebulicans do similar crony stuff but it seems more like things like Halliburton or looking the other way on enviromental regulations or other tax cuts for the wealthy.
I don’t know which is worse.
ED rulling
Thanks to the Supreme Ct for doing that.
The supreme court ruled on erectile disfunction? I must have missed that.
Yes Justice Ginsburg wrote the opinion.
She was all for it.
Now you’ve gone and done it…….
Have you ever heard of anyone going to the doctor because of “an erection longer than four hours”?
About every guy I know would go put on his Speedos, if that happened to him.
Haven’t heard of too many women that thought it was a problem, either.
supreme court ruled on erectile disfunction?
LOL dennis, you kidder!
Depends on the moment, but could also be thought of as eminent domain OR ED..
Depending….
I meant -imminent domain, hehe
a crime in fact, is transferring private property from one individual to another
Gov does this all the time, AND so does your favored corporations, your “capitalism”. IT, YOUR favorites do it all the time. And it is okay with you. YOU need to get your congress person out of office, as I do here. Mine never ever votes anything but what the party tells her to vote. And yet, the entire valley is Service industry which means NONE of them are making $250k or more. More like $30k on average. So, why they keep voting against they own best interests is stupefying. OH< yea, it is the wealthy retired snowbirds who flock to the desert in Nov and vote then, or absentee vote. We’re skrood either way.
The outrage at Wilson is because he interrupted a presidential speech to Congress to shout down the president. Are we now to accept this behavior whenever any politician distorts the truth? As if Capitol Hill isn’t chaotic and worthless enough.
I just don’t get the outrage at paying healthcare for illegals. We already pay healthcare for illegals when they go to emergency rooms and don’t pay the bill. We all pay increased health insurance costs for that. The only way you solve that problem is immigration reform, not in the middle of a freakin health care debate.
While I agree that Obama should not have been interrupted (see my post above) like that, US taxpayers should not pay for health care of illegal aliens because money don’t grow on trees and any such person who needs serious health care (not counting simple doctor visits) should be sent home to their own countries so their own taxpayers can pay for their own people’s health care. If you think you have a problem with illegals in ER now, just wait until you grant them the same health care as all Americans and watch how many folks with cancer all of a sudden show up in El Paso or JFK and asked to be taken care of. Hey it’s free so why not? I know I would.
Cougar,
While I am opposed to providing free health care to illegals also, bink has a valid point. They are already showing up at the emergency rooms in El Paso and we are paying twice as much to treat their cancer than if we just covered them and had them go to the doctor.
Doing what we are doing now is not only rediculously expensive, it is unsustainable over the long term. Republicans had 8 years to resolve this problem and chose not to even try.
Jon, it’s not Republicans per se, no administration in history has ever deal seriously and honestly about this problem. Look at IRCA of 1986, it was bipartisan and was suppose to solve the problem of illegal immigration and it did absolutely nothing in that regard and I bet they knew that from the very beginning.
If I can’t go to Mexico, Canada or France illegally and demand their taxpayers pay for my health care, the the reverse should not be true either. Now you can say that this is already happening in ER and that is true to a certain degree, but I have a huge problem with making it “official eligible” free health care for all comers with no question ask. Think about what kind of message that sends to the rest of the world. That’s just setting us up for even bigger outlays in the future.
Look at IRCA of 1986, it was bipartisan and was suppose to solve the problem of illegal immigration and it did absolutely nothing in that regard and I bet they knew that from the very beginning.
IRCA of 1986: A bill that was signed into law by Ronald Reagan.
>IRCA of 1986: A bill that was signed into law by Ronald Reagan
Yes and championed by the now departed Ted Kennedy. Like I said both sides were not honest and there is the proof.
Aren’t many US citizens popping over the border(s) to buy their medications, which are so much cheaper than here? I should imagine those illegals do the same, yes?
I remember having an eye exam in Mexico that lasted an hour. Cost me $5.
Aren’t many US citizens popping over the border(s) to buy their medications, which are so much cheaper than here?
I’ve gone with elderly US citizens on such trips. And, yes, the Mexican meds are much cheaper.
+1000 Bink
+ 1000 ET
Spending those +1s like a Texas politician?
Cheap bastards aren’t they.
+1
Frankly, if I have to pay an extra 50 cents in taxes to support non citizens, I really don’t care. I cannot imagine denying healthcare to ANYONE, no matter where they come from.
Frankly, if I have to pay an extra 50 cents in taxes to support non citizens, I really don’t care.
Hmm?
*puzzled face *
Where does this ‘extra 50 cents’ number come from? Got a link? If it was only an extra 50 cents in taxes to support non-citizens I wouldn’t care either.
But I don’t think it’s only an extra 50 cents.
300mm citizens * $0.50 is only $150mm. That’s not what this health care debate is about. If it was, it wouldn’t be that hard to solve.
My deductible is currently around $1200k a year per person. That’s closer to $360Billion. There are around 20mm illegals. That’s $24bb, or approx $80 per person or $240 per household.
Serious medical care costs way more per year than a deductible.
To clarify, be it a republican or a democratic president, if their lying to the public, they should be called on it. That is democracy in action. As to the present cost of paying for illegal healthcare, yes we are, thru higher insurance rates and higher care costs. Eliminate the illegals should be part of reducing the cost Obama’s talking about. So, in my opinion, he is lying in two ways,
1., Illegals will have acess to health insurance, but it will be funded by the government.
2., The taxpayers will ultimately pay for this care.
In effect, one lie begets another. With the illegals getting it from the gov, costs will increase the deficeit.
By the way, I wished just once during Bush’s speeches to congress, someone would have stood up and asked him, ” if Saddam was such a threat, why did it only take three days to walk thru his army?”
Or make the employers of the illegal immigrants pay for **all costs** that are a result of them **and their families/dependents** being here. This would include all healthcare, education, legal, infrastructure costs, etc.
All of it.
I also agree that Obama should not have been interrupted. But it makes Obama no less a liar.
I betcha now the same nuthouses who voted for Obama automatically say Obama is more honest than ever only because some idiotic Republican congresscritter was rude.
No, just thinking that I am so sick of this steamy pile o shite that the reps and the teabagrs/birthers/deathpanelers/kill grandma thugs are.
Something is so very wrong about all of this and frankly, it is getting very dangerous.
Now how will you assh ts feel when it gets even more dangerous than a guy murdering a MD at church one Sunday? Then it doesn’t stop and suddenly some nutjob doesn’t stop when he sees you on the street and mistakes YOU for someone he thought disagreed with ‘him’? Then what?
What is with the ‘guys/gals’ that choose to become so vile and violent and name calling which eggs on the others who can’t
‘control’ their ignorant anger?
Whats next you guys? Don’t you see this as getting really out of hand? IF you answer me, not the idiot stuff that goes on in DC, but the Town hall guns/knives and other Visible Threatening tools to Intimidate Crow?
Oh, but he did lie. The health care bill as it now stands, does not require proof of citizenship.
Clearly you know this proposal backwards and forwards, better than Rep. Wilson himself, no doubt.
So why don’t you tell us the precise language in the bill relevant to your assertion, as well as any possible loopholes, exclusions, or end-arounds that may be present. Then we’ll all know how it might possibly be tightened up or otherwise edited.
Until then (and even then, in all probability), I can only assume Rep. Wilson is lacking any ability to discuss policy matters in a cogent fashion, and that’s why he acted like a four-year old throwing a temper tantrum.
The government is in capable of determining the immigration status of someone applying for a job or a driver’s license.
How will doctors and nurses be able to determine if someone is in the country illegally? Its not like there is a DNA test or anything.
That doesn’t answer my question.
Terry and some other posters are telling us A.) some fairly specific language is (or isn’t) in the current version of the healthcare bill, B.) how we should interpret that language, and C.) that the president is lying about A.), or B.), or both.
Call me crazy, but I suspect that they have not read the bill.
Will I get some credible specifics?
(Crickets.)
Before people even get to the doctor or nurse, they have to produce an insurance card. Everywhere except the overloaded county hospitals. Indigent care has always been provided by this system. Just try going anywhere else for medical treatment and not showing your insurance card. No insurance means you’re on the hook for all charges which the provider usually wants paid up front. It’s not like every doctor’s office in the country is going to be inundated with uninsured illegal immigrants. Sheesh.
in capable of determining the immigration status of someone applying for a job or a driver’s license.
How will doctors and nurses be able to determine if someone is in the country illegally?
It is NOT the job of doctors/nurses to determine if someone is in this country illegally. They are responsible for bringing that persons body to health. That is all.
And ‘in capable’ or incapable. two different things.
If doctors received no payment for care given to illegal aliens I bet it wouldn’t take doctors long to figure out who they were not making any money from ( I bet the 3 credit bureaus could assist in this program ).
FACTCHECK .org
The bill does explicitly say that illegal immigrants can’t get any government money to pay for health care. Page 143 states: “Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.” And as we’ve said before, current law prohibits illegal immigrants from participating in government health care programs.
I think you mean “federal government” health care program as county hospitals in Texas provide health care to illegal aliens and receive federal money to do this.
Skroodle, the issue is whether health care for illegals is in THIS BILL. It seems that it is not. And by government programs, they more likely mean formal programs like Medicare or the Indian Health Service.
I think you have to consider that illegals may not be included in this bill, but they will still be able to get free medicare and that was taken into consideration when crafting this bill.
Ding ding ding. PBS quoted this passage as well. Measton I suggest you post this first thing in tomorrow’s Bits so everyone can see it.
I also found out (thanks PBS!) why Democrats voted down the identification requirement. Evidently lots of true in this country — especially those eligible for Medicaid — would be able to produce the ID. (think of all the birth certificates lost in Katrina.) Democrats didn’t want to shut them out, so they voted against the ID requirement.
Now, being dumb enough not to keep or save your birth certificate (or at least a copy), that’s another issue…
Has nothing to do with truth - the congressman is owned by the healthcare industry and he is working for his pay from them and should give up his government pay and government run health care
Obama speech disruptor a health industry darling
In fact, over his entire congressional career, health professionals represent Wilson’s top industry contributors, donating a total of $244,196 to his campaign, according to the Center for Responsive Politics OpenSecrets.org database. He received another $86,150 from pharmaceutical companies, $73,050 from insurance companies and $68,000 from hospitals and nursing homes.
Among Wilson’s top contributors are the American Hospital Association, a lobby group that represents the interests of hospitals and health networks, and the American Medical Association, which represents physicians.
“In fact, over his entire congressional career, health professionals represent Wilson’s top industry contributors,”
And there it is. A bought and paid for crook standing against every man, woman and child, aligning himself with a criminal enterprise.
Why should this be a surprise?
I just hope that you never need to use that criminal enterprise. I hear that Shamans in Africa are pretty good at treating diseases.
The poor insurance companies!!!!!
I hate to point this out, but nowhere in your post, you say insurance companies… In fact:
““In fact, over his entire congressional career, health professionals represent Wilson’s top industry contributors,”
And there it is. A bought and paid for crook standing against every man, woman and child, aligning himself with a criminal enterprise.”
Leads me to believe that you are calling every doctor, dentist, nurse, and healthcare professional in the country a criminal. As such criminals SHOULD go to jail for commiting crimes… That leaves you the option of going and getting attention from somebody who is clearly not a health care professional.
Maybe you should go volunteer at an emergency room for a couple of weekends in a row, and realize what these people go through. I assure you that seeing Dr. House in TV is not what you are going to get.
Nice distortion but never works in your favor.
#1 Contributor to WackoWilson? American Hospital Assocation. Not doctors, not nurses, not technicians but the American Hospital Assocation. Who else?
Carecore National; insurance company (imagine that)
Blue Cross/Blue Shield
AstraZeneca PLC
Schering-Plough Corp
Merck & Co
Spartanburg Regional Medical Center
…….. and to further unmask this lowly hypocrite….. National Assn of Home Builders.
Now lets say it together…. everyone now….
THE POOR INSURANCE COMPANIES!!!
The Mesiah knee capped Big Pharma to the tune of 100mil. God only knows what GE (NBC, MSNBC ect ect) have given for their global warming hoax green products. AARP was bought off by the Thugs from Chicago as well. Don’t mess with my health care.
No one is proposing messing with your health care. You have good insurance, fine. Keep it. You don’t have to give a hoot about the people who don’t have, can’t get, or get dropped by insurance companies who don’t want customers that have the insufferable gall to get cancer or be in a serious accident.
God forbid you should ever become one of those unfortunates. That’s probably the only way you would ever see the other side, the dirty money-grubbing callous greedy side of the health care industry.
God forbid you should ever become one of those unfortunates.
I assist a relative who is disabled. He’s on Medicaid. At his clinic they posted the schedule rate for the services delivered, my jaw dropped when I saw the figures.
Each service was easily double what one would expect from a non-Medicaid paid physician. I can’t imagine a private insurer that would pay those rates.
I can’t imagine a private insurer that would pay those rates.
I wouldn’t be so sure.
I’ve posted in the past about the bills associated with my son’s birth. He was six weeks pre-term, but otherwise healthy given his age at birth.
The retail costs of this fairly ordinary situation were incredible. We happen to have very good insurance, so we only paid a fraction of the total costs — but a similar event could easily bankrupt an underinsured or uninsured family, especially a family already swimming in debt.
First, I’m happy all turned out well for your little one.
My point was what Eleanor posted downthread:
When there’s no where else to go, those who run a service can charge whatever they want.
Poor people with no insurance are a captive audience. CrozerKeystone, the health provider who runs the clinic can charge whatever they want up to what the govt. will allow. The eyeopener for me was that the threshold was so high. Current practice doesn’t support the notion that govt. health care will be cheaper. We know for a fact that the $375/30 mins that CK charges is not going to the MD. Where’s all the extra money going?
Administratiive costs, up the ladder to the executive suite certainly. I can’t help but believe that some of that padding is getting kicked back to a govt. flunky or organization.
As for the costs sinking an uninsured family, catastrophic insurance is available, probably a lot of contingencies attached, but it’s a start.
Poor people with no insurance are a captive audience.
My point is we are all potentially captive and vulnerable under the current system. And we are certainly not seeing cost efficiency from the private sector, not at the consumer level.
Pismo watching O’Reilly lately?
“And there it is. A bought and paid for crook standing against every man, woman and child, aligning himself with a criminal enterprise.”
Welcome aboard! Now you have Obama pegged correctly.
Let go…. or be dragged.
Did you hear the latest about ACORN’s Baltimore office?
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19760106&id=XCIWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2REEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7130,1025171
Wrong link.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/11078409/Complete-ACORN-Baltimore-Prostitution-Investigation-Transcript
FACTCHECK .org
The bill does explicitly say that illegal immigrants can’t get any government money to pay for health care. Page 143 states: “Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.” And as we’ve said before, current law prohibits illegal immigrants from participating in government health care programs.
Cobalt take a pill.
No, no, no. Cobalt still is letting that bitter pill dissolve slowly on his tongue.
Same with Samk.
There it is, indeed!
Ya gotta love Obama, 1000x smarter than any person the GOP can put up against him. Right or wrong, the guy is a genius like Clinton.
Any politician who takes monies from special interest groups should be shot as a traitor!
Excuse me everyone. Bill Moyers Journal has an interview with Wendell Potter, a former executive with Cigna, who spills the beans on the dems and repukes, the lobbyists on both side, and the health care industry’s agenda. It was quite an eye opener to hear what’s really going on from someone who really knows.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/profile.html
Also, even more details from Wendell Potter:
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/16/former_insurance_exec_wendell_porter
Thank you Awaiting.
i suppose you want to be consistent, and feel that any politician being supported by some special interest should give up his government pay.
Why not, joey? why not?
FIRST and foremost, we should have Publically Funded elections.
Which can be done if we all mark a spot on our tax forms that put JUSTSIXDOLLARS.org into publically funded elections.
Justsixdollars.org
Why is that so hard?
Ante up you nincompoops.
Just a small factoid… There are some 37,000 + registered lobbyist in D.C.
Out of the 535 in charge wonder how many aren’t bought and paid for by one group or other? Do yourself a favor and wrap your brain around the fact they are all bought and paid for, in some form or fashion!
Lies and obfuscation are a character trait among politicians, period!
“Oh, but he did lie.”
Nothing that a little indignant political outrage can’t cover up, neh?
I wonder what other countries that have universal medical coverage for their citizens do. There are plenty of them - most Europeans, some Asians, Canada, etc. Have they all been inundated by floods of illegal aliens arriving at their ports and airports and borders, demanding free treatment ? If not, why will ours be different ? Keep in mind, a lot of the other countries with this coverage have had it for a long time.
1. We already have illegals showing up for their free cardiac care.
2. The biggest driver of illegal immigration is jobs. A simple fix is fine employers who hire them, but that would be too simple. Those that oppose this plan on this point failed to read it, see FACTCHECK. org. They also failed to hold their political leaders who failed to fine employers over the last 8 years when they had total power.
+ a gazillion
Like that idiots on tv who said, once his maid became a legal citizen, he can no longer threaten her by lifting up the phone to call Immigration. He thinks it is funny as do all other corporations do. But they get away with paying a pittence and knowing that those illegals they hire are frightened to their very core that they will get thrown out. But the corporate owners get away with it. Sort of like the Meat corp that was the sacrificial Lamb the one time, but now they get away with it. The tv needed to show something. And like all the other White collar scum, we got ONE sacrificial Lamb ala Madoff this time, and Eickenberg (sp?) last time but all others get off scott free or at least with a minor slap.
NO one gets punished for real. Sort of like an acting lesson.
Just act like we are punishing you. good good , I am ready for my close up Mr DeMille….
It’s pretty weird that the government does not address illegal
immigrant and not admit that the health care of those workers
would not come into play . The government has been paying for health care for illegals ,and thereby giving a supplement to big business who uses low pay immigrants .
You could say that a Nation that exposes its Citizens to possible
health risk outbreaks from a illegal group ,is either ignoring the duty to stop illegal immigrants or imposing a health risk on its
legal Citizens by not addressing the health problems of that group .
Big Business likes population ,and they especially like cheap illegal labor ,and Big Business especially likes it when the Government pays for the health care ,instead of Big business.
Look,we either allow the immigrants citizenship ,and therefore require them to contribute to the health costs ,or make their employers pay the health costs ,or we kick them out . Of course we could just ignore the possible health risks illegals could create if they didn’t get health care ,or be willing to see people die in front of us because they are denied health care .
The Government does not have much political will to address the illegal problem ,especially how it relates to the health care issue and the cost involved . So the illegal world continues while the health care is supplemented by taxpayers .
I bet the private health insurance industry would rather the government take care of the health care of illegals if truth be known . I bet the stats show that illegals are higher risk
for costs . That just my hunch and I have no data to support it other than a personal observation that poorer classes delay
health care because of lack of funds or lack of knowledge .
“……fine employers who hire them…….”
That would solve the problem overnight. But since the Republicans have found the “sweet spot” in this debate (generating a lot of votes/money from one part of their constituency that wants the illegals out, while at the same time, collecting donations/support from other constituencies (independent businessmen, homebuilders, fast-food businesses and franchisees, meatpackers, etc.) that profit off the illegal labor.
What needs to happen is for some smart hospital lawyer to track down and sue some business that hired an illegal, who subsequently left the hospital holding the bag on a couple of million bucks in unpaid emergency room visit bills.
What needs to happen is for some smart hospital lawyer to track down and sue some business that hired an illegal, who subsequently left the hospital holding the bag on a couple of million bucks in unpaid emergency room visit bills.
Hear, hear!
I got a idea ….Set up the illegal persons Medical fund Insurance Co ,in which all illegals contribute to such fund and can go to the Illegal Clinic of ones choice, Doctors office ,or Hospital . You have to be a illegal in order to get a policy . You are not allowed to go to the legal citizens hospital ,or you have to pay back a legal citizens health care cost,if you happen to use it in a emergency . Green insurance cards will be handed out to
the illegals . he he .
“It’s pretty weird that the government does not address illegal immigrant and not admit that the health care of those workers would not come into play . The government has been paying for health care for illegals ,and thereby giving a supplement to big business who uses low pay immigrants .”
The “illegal immigrant” issue is all about the agriculture industry. Sure, some of these wets are out spray painting graffiti and producing bumper crops of kids, but at the end of the day it’s about agriculture. Rather than pay real wages for hard labor and raise the price for food the industry decided years ago to lobby for lax immigration and porous borders, cheap labor. Today, there are very few white-breads that could out-work a wetback. The Mexican has become as important as the bee in agriculture.
The solution is to eliminate ‘welfare’. If you work you eat. The idea that the urban citizen would not do ag work is incorrect.They would do it if they had to to eat. By the way, stock up on ammo.
PBS “Sick Around The World”- a documentary on 5 countries universal health care. UK and Canada not included.
Informative, and objective (good/& bad).
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/
* The Wall Street Journal
* OPINION: WONDER LAND
* SEPTEMBER 10, 2009
It’s Still the Economy, Stupid
…
In February and March, the historic Obama presidency should have been rolling a new health-care entitlement into everlasting law on a wave of good will. Instead, it had to rescue the economy and credit system. Whether what they did—stimulus, the auto rescue, TARP and the rest—was the right policy at the time is beside the point for our argument.
The administration seems to think it got this problem behind them. It didn’t. The problem is too big. Bigger, believe it or not, than health care.
The most recent Wall Street Journal/NBC poll has 87% of the American public somewhat or very dissatisfied with the economy.The unemployment rate is likely to go above 10% for 2010. Whatever GDP growth may occur, there is no evidence of new-job growth. Gold’s price has risen above $1,000, suggesting inflation is swimming below the economy’s flat surface. China is stockpiling gold, worrying out loud about the weak dollar. A U.N. panel said this week the world should abandon the dollar as the world’s anchor currency.
Barack Obama’s mad obsession with arcane health-insurance puzzles looks wildly beside the point just now.
…
Instead, it had to rescue the economy and credit system.
Fate alone may have spared us.. We may someday look back and realize that only the costs of the housing bubble prevented our becoming a Socialist State.
Who says bubbles are always a bad thing?
Hello
We have seen the biggest increase in corporate welfare ever known.
you’re equating a hangnail to a beheading..
And your point is delusional.
Financial setbacks eventually heal. Socialism is terminal.
Dunno, Joey,
Italy has been around a long, long time. France, too. Also Scandinavia.
I think maybe you’re confusing Socialism with Totalitarianism.
and i think you are confusing economic systems with political systems.
How about real socialist countries.. ones with overwhelming amounts of state-administered, state owned industry. Immense social programs..
Cuba.. North Korea.. Syria .. Vietnam.. China
yeah.. they are terminal. The walking dead. Except China, which may have seen the light and is leaning towards capitalism recently.
China and the US are symbiotically attached at the hip. And I mean the front of the hipbone.
The sickness care circus has many panties in wads. Some bill will come to pass, and whatever it is will not be implemented until 2013 at the earliest (according to D.C.). So why the urgency? and why does it have to be over a 1000 pages long. Why not 20?
No matter what it is, it will be an expensive boondoggle, the D.C. cesspool is good at that.
Oh, goodie. So I get to keep my POS, high deductible individual health “insurance” for four more years. I’m so thrilled.
From Factcheck. org
Bill will pay for illegal immigrants
False. That’s simply not what the bill says at all. This page includes “SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE,” which says that “[e]xcept as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.” However, the bill does explicitly say that illegal immigrants can’t get any government money to pay for health care. Page 143 states: “Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.” And as we’ve said before, current law prohibits illegal immigrants from participating in government health care programs.
Measton…. don’t take away their latest hobgoblin. It’s fun to watch monkeys throw snot on the wall to see if it sticks.
…illegal immigrants can’t get any government money to pay for health care…
Can’t get “affordability credits”. Credits? yeah.. so what? Can’t get money or can’t get health care?
What’s that got to do with illegals being insured? What’s it got to do with them continuing to game the system?
———
current law prohibits illegal immigrants from participating in government health care programs.
Well, damn.. who gives a crap about that? Current LAW prohibits illegals from being here in the first place.
In a state where corruption abounds, laws must be very numerous.
Tacitus
Thank you, measton. That really says it all.
It sounds like an illegal immigrant would be able to buy into the public plan (if one is ever established) or any of the private plans, but would have to pay the full-price entirely on their own and would not be eligible for the subsidy payments that a legal resident or citizen would be able to get if their income is determined to be too low to be able to effectively afford the regular rate. Sounds like illegal residents will still mostly be getting free or reduced rate care at public clinics and hospital emergency rooms - just like they do now - if they are indigent and paying full pop for insurance - just like they do now - if they can afford to.
Here is the real sticker. If the individual mandate is implemented, illegals might avoid the hospitals and clinics altogether. Imagine the conversation:
Illegal - I am very sick.
Hosptial - May I have your insurance card please?
Illegal - I don’t have one.
Hospital - We have a universal mandate for health insurance. Everyone is required to have health insurance in the United States.
Illegal - I can’t afford it.
Hospital - If you can’t afford it, you can receive a subsidy to help you afford it. We have staff here that can help you fill out the paperwork for the subsidy. (don’t laugh - hospitals currently have staff that help the indigent apply for Medicaid)
Illegal - But I’ve heard you can’t get the subsidy unless you are a citizen or have a green card.
Hospital - Oh, you are in the United States illegally? Well, then, we have a moral obligation to stabilize you, but then we are going to call INS because that is the only way we can get reimbursement for the expense of treating your emergency condition.
Illegal - Oops, I feel better now. Excuse me.
Conversation can’t happen if the person isn’t talking or is truely bleeding all over the place, but that is not the majority of emergency room visits despite what you see on TV.
The individual mandate - which I still think is the part the “pure capitalism” crowd hates the most - is possibly the best way to keep illegal immigrants out of the system. Well, out of the general health system. They will still be getting health care. It will just be through a detention system, not hospitals available to the general public.
Not sure how this would affect legit tourists or business travelers who do not require a visa. But you certainly could require coverage for anyone who enters the country using a visa, like foreign students.
Actually, I think the conversation will go something more like this… (tongue in cheek, of course….)
Illegal - “Hello… sick”
Hospital - May I have your insurance card please?
Illegal - Si. (but providing no card)
Hospital - We have a universal mandate for health insurance. Everyone is required to have health insurance in the United States.
Illegal - Si. Gracias.
Hospital — So where is your card?
Illegal - Si. Gracias.
Hospital — do you understand what I’m saying?
Illegal - Si. Gracias.
Do you need a translator?
Illegal - Si. Gracias.
Hospital - (in Espanol) If you can’t afford it, you can receive a subsidy to help you afford it. We have staff here that can help you fill out the paperwork for the subsidy.
Illegal - Si. Gracias.
etc.
Nope. The hospitals won’t p*ss off the hand that feeds them too much and that is the government. Right NOW it is the government since the government runs Medicare and a HUGE chunk of hospital stays are covered by Medicare. The government has the hospitals over a barrel if they would only use the power. If the people of the US let their reps know that they won’t tollerate illegals getting more than stabilization or services designed primarily to protect public health, then it wouldn’t happen. Lots of nurse protests, but they don’t run things, do they?
Of course, to implement it you would have to have a National ID with a retina scan or some other biometric identifyer in it. That is really the only way. I’d like to see the Republicans really advocate for that before I believe that their primary purpose is to prevent wasting money on health care for 8 to 10 million illegal immigrants. So far, I mostly see them scream that we can never put any treatment, no matter how useless it has been proven to be, into the “not covered by insurance because the rest of us shouldn’t have to cover that risk shift” while complaining that universal coverage is too expensive.
Try 20 to 30 million illegals. You think these SUV’s rolling over with 15 to 20 illegals is a fantasy? Talk to a law enforcement officer to get a true idea of their numbers.
How about this … the illegal has H5N1 (the really bad shit from Hong Kong) and gets turned away at the hospital. He’s then cleaning your car or picking your fruit or mowing your lawn and coughs on you. You and your family are now dead in 2 weeks. However, you saved on taxes. Horray!
I guess that would be okay with all the blatant racism going on around here.
What I want to know is, weren’t all these folks Immigrants at some point? YES they were. But it is again that thing, NIMBY.
Geeze. Blatant Racism.
And the other thing is that most of this BS rhetoric is from folks who don’t land in that 1-2% of the uber wealthy and powerful, yet they act as if they are 1-2% in the top.
Ridiculous.
Just cause you think you look like Tom Cruise, doesn’t mean you do.
“current law prohibits illegal immigrants from participating in government health care programs.”
But tell me, what stops them from going to hospitals and getting treatment that subsequently has to be covered some other way??
Your little clause doesn’t fixed a problem that already exists, and won’t.
Nothing. Hospital emergency rooms are required to provide emergency services to all comers. They cannot kick you out until you can be safely released. However, that does not mean they have to cure you. If you are actively bleeding they will close the holes, but you can’t get chemotherapy that way. And you can’t get physical therapy that way. And you can’t get your face recontructed that way. And those people on Discovery Health with the monster tumors? They can’t get treated that way.
Providing very basic stabilization to emergency patients without regard to ability to pay is one of the ways hospitals justify their tax exemption (I believe they also have to agree to do it to be certified to receive Medicare payments).
Providing very basic stabilization to emergency patients without regard to ability to pay is one of the ways hospitals justify their tax exemption (I believe they also have to agree to do it to be certified to receive Medicare payments).
EMTALA and the ’stabilization’ it decrees are far more complicated than you are hinting at.
The point is that the nitwits above claim,despite not having read the bill, that the bill will force American Tax payers to somehow pay more for illegals. The bill explicitly states that it won’t. It also won’t reverse current law that requires emergency rooms to treat the sick when they show up. That’s an entirely different debate.
It also won’t reverse current law that requires emergency rooms to treat the sick when they show up. That’s an entirely different debate. Different only because you say so. EMTALA constitutes an important part of hospital-care costs, like it or not.
I’d also note that calling them “these people” or anything like that is an odd turn for some mixed-race person to do.
We have this bipolar disorder on illegals. Since we aren’t doing anything to secure the border, my landmine proposals aside.
Basically, if you are passivly encouraging or letting people show up here and work, then I think you are somewhat responsible for their welfare. If not, secure the borders and send these people home. Heck, most of these “illegals” do more work than a lot of people born here.
While I think this particular set of legislation will not be useful or is particularly well thought out; I don’t think we should restrict care to people because of their origin.
Have YOU read it in its entirety? Or just taken the word of that one channel on tv/radio?
I did a google search with “H.R. 3200″ and found the bill. Over 1000 pages in PDF format. I’ll read it tonight and let everyone know for sure whether illegals are covered or not.
Over 1000 pages in PDF format. I’ll read it tonight and let everyone know for sure whether illegals are covered or not.
I am confident that whatever bill Congress might pass will differ greatly from that PDF, due to future amendments that tend to slip in unnoticed by the public until it’s too late.
The other thing is Obama keeps repeating the approx 40 million uninsured. According to Pew Research (NYT) that includes 10 -12 million illegals. Obama is hyping his number or is ignorant of the basic facts. Either way does not inspire trust or confidence.
Nope. His speech last night said 30 million uninsured. He is no longer counting the illegals.
U.S. Foreclosure Filings Top 300,000 for Sixth Straight Month
Sept. 10 (Bloomberg) — Foreclosure filings in the U.S. exceeded 300,000 for the sixth straight month as job losses that boosted the unemployment rate to a 26-year high left many homeowners unable to keep up with their mortgage payments.
A total of 358,471 properties received a default or auction notice or were seized last month, according to data provider RealtyTrac Inc. That’s up 18 percent from a year earlier, and down 0.5 percent from July, the Irvine, California-based company said in a statement. One in 357 households received a filing.
Foreclosures rose from a year earlier as companies cut payrolls by 216,000 workers last month, boosting the U.S. jobless rate to 9.7 percent, according to Labor Department data released last week. The rise in unemployment is having a bigger impact than an effort by the U.S. government and banks to modify mortgages and prevent foreclosures, said Morris A. Davis, an assistant real-estate professor at the Wisconsin School of Business.
“The foreclosure numbers are largely unemployment related,” Davis, a former Federal Reserve Board economist, said in an interview. “As long as 15 million Americans are unemployed, record foreclosures will continue.”
Foreclosures aren’t abating even as demand is returning to the U.S. housing market after a three-year slump. The number of contracts to buy previously owned homes rose more than forecast in July and increased for a record sixth consecutive month, while mortgage buyer Freddie Mac said the average price rose 1.7 percent in the second quarter.
“Top 300,000 for Sixth Straight Month…”
- Over 6*300,000 = 1.8m for the past six months
- Over 12*300,000 = 3.6m annual rate
That’s a lot of foreclosures! How many housing units are there in the US?
Question though - don’t the stats overlap? I.e. being that the stats includes NODs, seizures, and auction notices - might one house be counted in the stats multiple times, as it goes from one to the other?
Not sure, just wondering. If they do overlap, then the stats are somewhat misleading. If they don’t - then you’re right the number is absolutely *huge*.
Each mortgage first gets a NOD, then an auction notice, then the foreclosure is completed. Three events.
Well yeah I knew that (more or less) - I was just wondering if all three are counted separately in the RealtyTrac stats for each house, or if instead once a house has been counted for NOD, then it isn’t counted for the latter two.
The fact that they include all 3 in the stats implies the former - that a given house can be included 3 times. If so then PB’s extrapolation isn’t really meaningful.
FWIW - it’s worth looking at the historical data here also. The chart here is a couple of months lagging - but note that before July foreclosures didn’t go above 340k per month.
For whatever reason there also seems to be a big pop up every August.
I used to tell my 66 y/o mother who is collecting SS now that she has nothing to worry about since SS is “suppose” to still be there by the time she finishes collecting it, but now I am not so sure.
From ZH this morning:
The Social Security Trust Fund reported an August net deficit of $5.865 Billion. This is the largest monthly deficit in nineteen years. Base on recent years data it was not surprising the Fund ran a deficit in August. But the magnitude of the shortfall was a surprise to me. This deficit is now the seventh in the past twelve months. That pace has never been seen before.
We deal with very big numbers these days. 100rds of billions and trillions are how we measure things. So a $6b monthly deficit for the Fund would appear to be a ho-hum. That is not correct. This is an important number.
The Actuarial analysis of the Fund is misdirected. Their focus is based on the future value. It should be focused on the here and now. In the June annual report the Trustees concluded that the Fund would be broke in 2037. This conclusion is so far into the future that it is easy for everyone involved to say, “this is a next year problem, health care comes first”. Stephen Goss the Fund’s head honcho said as much in a recent interview.
if they can print money for wars, they can print money for ss
“But the magnitude of the shortfall was a surprise to me.”
Why should it suprise you? More people out of work can op to start drawing early. More people out of work are not paying into SS. More people out of work when returning to work are taking lower paying jobs and paying less into SS. SS is paying more and more people to go on disability, gee, why work!
>Why should it suprise you?
I hope you realize that I didn’t write the article I posted… it was from ZH.
I think it will probably collapse when the boomer retirement really gets going, unless we attract a lot of young immigrants to pay into it. I don’t say this to be cool or cynical. It just looks so obviously doomed to me that I’d prefer it fails earlier so I can stop paying into it.
Just because SS may fail doesn’t mean the government won’t keep collecting from youngsters like you. I’m sure they will figure out another way to spend your FICA taxes.
That’s a possibility, I suppose, but I sort of envision the whole federal government failing around the same time. In any case, I say fix it or get rid of it. I’m tired of being forced to pay money for something that, in its present form, is guaranteed to be useless by the time I need it.
I started liking my Indian neighbors. Most of them are young. They are our hope for keeping the Ponzi scheme going.
Most of my siblings and friends are childless and in their late 40s and 50s.
yup, same here..it was really going around. Seemed all the women in my class stayed childless, except one who up and picked some guy and had a little boy to call her own. Got rid of the baby-daddy of course, who needs ‘em. Such was the whitebread life in SoCal burbs circa 1975.
this is why i suspect both parties turn a blind eye to illegal the immigration problem…
1. we need enough of them to take up the slack in spending when the baby boomers move past their peak spending years.
2. as long as they remain “illegal” they pay into social security yet will receive no beneifts.
it’s a win win!
dad gummit…i put the “the” in the wrong place. it should read.
…turn a blind eye to THE illegal immigration problem…
Well the real question is not when the SS trust fund is depleted, but rather how exactly is it supposed to help. Out in West Virginia there is a filing cabinet filled with bonds. Every penny of interest and principle that those bonds represent will have to be either taxed from then current taxpayers, borrowed through bonds, or generated from the sale of government assets.
So now you are trying to scare the bejesus out of your poor old mom. Coug, dang you are one harsh.
Treasury: Expect Millions More Foreclosures
Despite efforts to prop up the housing market, as many as six million Americans remain at risk of foreclosure over the next three years.
While the Treasury is struggling to help homeowners and banks modify mortgages in order to prevent foreclosure, the program has been off to a slow start and millions of people might lose their homes regardless.
MakingHomesAffordable.gov: Even if HAMP [The Home Affordable Mortgage Program] is a total success, we should still expect millions of foreclosures, as President Obama noted when he launched the program in February.
Some of these foreclosures will result from borrowers who, as investors, do not qualify for the program. Others will occur because borrowers do not respond to our outreach. Still others will be the product of borrowers who bought homes well beyond what they could afford and so would be unable to make the monthly payment even on a modified loan.
Given that loan modifications are unlikely to prevent large amounts of future foreclosures, expect further government intervention to prop up housing prices. After all, the Treasury said in this latest release that a strong housing market is “crucial” to a US economic recovery. A strong fiscal position, presumably, isn’t.
Does TTT think a strong housing market is more “crucial” than say… a strong jobs market? What is it about trading houses that’s so alluring to our central planners?
Asset markets equal confidence markets. As asset markets rise, confidence rises. As they fall, confidence falls. Instead of bread and circuses, the PTB feed the herd everlasting rising asset markets. Despite the facts on the ground, of course, people wanna believe.
That makes me picture an unshaven unemployed dude in a stained tank top sitting at his computer constantly running Zestimates on his house…one hand clicking the mouse…and the other hand stroking his…
A colleague at work mentioned this. Can you provide a URL?
Here you go:
Treasury: Expect Millions More Foreclosures
standing in the shower thinking this morning i wondered…why does healthcare cost and education cost rise so much every year compared to inflation?
my more specific question is…are the two any how related to the same cause?
My health insurance is $139 per month. I just got a sprained ankle over the weekend. No problem.
Maybe you should rephrase your question: Why is health care expensive for people with preexisting conditions and for people at the end of life?
What was your deductible again?
If you’re paying $139/month you are in the extreme minority. When I was in-between jobs years ago I was paying $350/month for COBRA as a single 20-something male. As a business owner now I see all of our employee health insurance payments. We pay half of the cost and not a single person pays under $200/month for their share. The poor older married saps with kids pay around $1000/month total.
I’m in my 50s. How can someone in his 20s NOT shop around like I’ve been doing on internet and find better health insurance? Seems like a personal problem to me.
I have been buying insurance through ehealthinsurance.com for years. I have gone with different companies.
$5k deductible. $10k deductible would not be a problem for me.
Personal problem? I thought the use of that phrase went out with the hair bands.
You honestly think we don’t shop around for health insurance policies? Our costs have gone up 30-50% in the last five years, and I think we’ve been lucky compared to other companies. We pay more than we have to for health insurance because we want our employees to be happy working here and not feel like they need to leave to properly take care of their children’s health needs, but that doesn’t mean the costs aren’t outrageous to begin with.
We have a very large deductible that we pay for our employees. Most people in my line of work would consider a $5k health care deductible to be roughly equivalent to a $5k paycut, and rightfully so, IMHO.
Absolutely. That huge deductible is just another way for ins corps to rip you off.
First, why would anyone go to get yrly pap,mammo, teeth if they had to First pay off 5k of deductible. May as well pay cash for your basics. Cause you will never ever get to the 5k limit.
And Bill, most dont’ make the kind of $scratch you make. The average is $35-45k. So a huge deductible would be ridiculous.
And I also pay $370 per mo and it is tripling this next round, also they change to the worse in the middle of each yr. Withdrawing some coverages.
Shop around all you want, but Bink is right.
The average is $35-45k. S
Per later post, the median(?) is now reported as being ‘lowered’ to $50k.
Either way,my point it the same.
First, why would anyone go to get yrly pap,mammo, teeth if they had to First pay off 5k of deductible. May as well pay cash for your basics. Cause you will never ever get to the 5k limit.
Thank you, desertdweller. You’ve described my own situation to a tee.
“why would anyone go to get yrly pap,mammo, teeth if they had to First pay off 5k of deductible. May as well pay cash for your basics. Cause you will never ever get to the 5k limit.”
That there is the crux of the problem! I’d like to think I still would, since I have the cash, but I just don’t know. It would be tempting to let it slide, even though I am high risk for cancer.
I bet Bill has never been very ill or filed a large claim.
I have a friend who is now in her mid-fifties. When she hit the big five-oh, she dutifully went in for a colonoscopy. You know, like you’re supposed to do when you turn 50.
A while later, she was applying for coverage with a new health insurer. Which jumped all over the fact that she had had a colonoscopy.
The insurance company tried to construe my friend’s colonoscopy, which is widely recommended as a standard screening for people 50 and over, as evidence of some sort of pre-existing condition.
I bet Bill has never been very ill or filed a large claim.
Touche! $5k deductible. You might be shocked to realize that most non-smoking, non-obese people who work our regularly rarely have to go to hospitals.
And people in their 80s, um, tend to die, just like people 100 years ago in their 60s. No whiners for socialized health care back then.
This whole issue is about end of life and pre-existing conditions. End of life happens. pre-existing is mostly preventable and Darwinism takes care of the rest.
pre-existing is mostly preventable NOPE.
End of life happens. YEP.
“You might be shocked to realize that most non-smoking, non-obese people who work our regularly rarely have to go to hospitals….”
That’s what I thought, too.
Wait until you find out about all the “medically unnecessary” “not reasonable and customary” “excluded” stuff they won’t cover, and the co-pays and resets every January 1 on top of that 5K deductible –when you’re unable to work. Oh, and have you priced pharmaceuticals lately? They’re probably not covered either…not so fun if you’re diagnosed with metastatic melanoma, for example.
Don’t be so smug, it’ll come back to bite you on the butt.
Don’t be so smug, it’ll come back to bite you on the butt.
———————
I’ve tried to explain this to Bill countless times before.
Both of my parents were lifelong non-smokers, ate healty foods, weren’t obese, exercised regularly, etc.
My dad was diagnosed with leukemia at 50 (then prostate cancer and melanoma, etc. later). My mom was diagnosed with breast cancer in her mid-60s (was probably there earlier based on previous tests that detected **something** but weren’t followed through), and later got uterine cancer in her late 60s.
I can list many, many stories just like theirs, even for people much younger and who followed the healthiest of lifestyles (all-organic, 20+ miles of running/biking every day, etc.). People who think they control their fate WRT their health are ignorant and naive, IMHO.
The poor older married saps with kids pay around $1000/month total.
They chose to have the kids. They are morally obligated to pay 100% of the cost of having those kids until the kids are of legal age.
I can understand the value of me, a single man, paying for better education of children who are not my own. A better educated society is a better society. But it would be a crime for anyone to be forced to pay for the health care of strangers.
it would be a crime for anyone to be forced to pay for the health care of strangers.
Yes because we all know that allowing TB and HIV to spread in a huge underclass with no medical insurance is no risk to those that have insurance??
We all know that business would thrive if employees all come down with the flu because they can’t get vaccinations.
But it would be a crime for anyone to be forced to pay for the health care of strangers.
A crime?
Why would that be a crime?
Would it still be a crime if these shared costs resulted in higher productivity, a healthier citizenry, lower per capita healthcare costs, and a higher average standard of living?
(And, while we’re on the subject, is it a crime for my tax dollars to be used to fund wars I do not support?)
LOL. You are so ridiculous!
So what if they chose to have kids? We’re talking about the cost of health care. An appropriate response to a debate about the cost isn’t “so? they decided to have kids!”
Reminds me of the movie Airplane! “They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say let them crash.”
“it would be a crime for anyone to be forced to pay for the health care of strangers”
THANK YOU!!!!
“it would be a crime for anyone to be forced to pay for the health care of strangers”
I thought health insurance was designed to do exactly that. That is the people who don’t use it subsidize the people who do need it. The problem is that sick people can’t get real coverage now.
Most of us will get sick or hurt at some point no matter how well we maintain ourselves. To think we are immune from life’s maladies in perpetuity is at best is naive and at worst hubristic.
To think we are immune until we qualify for medicare and therefore are uninterested in the welfare of younger people… well, that would be called something else.
I thought health insurance was designed to do exactly that.
No - health insurance does not force anyone to pay for the health care of others, because it’s optional.
So far.
Packman,
Of course it does and you are arguing semantics . Health insurance requires healthy policy holders to subsidize those other policy holders who get sick just as I described.
Your point does not override this point because if all were required to have health insurance, my point would still be valid.
The only difference, (I hope) would be that insurance companies would not be allowed to red-line for pre-existing conditions.
Your point does not override this point because if all were required to have health insurance, my point would still be valid.
Eh? What kind of circular logic is that? My point is exactly that the problem with government insurance is that all will be required to participate - in at least a payee role. With private insurance - if I felt unhappy about subsidizing others’ health care, I can simply opt out by not paying. That won’t be the case with government insurance - even if I’m not a recipient of benefits.
Packman,
My logic is good logic because even if you opt out of buying insurance and then get sick you will go to an emergency room and beyond and my higher insurance rates will subsidize your sub-par healthcare.
Of course if you never ever get sick and then die in your sleep, or if you comport yourself as did some of the nobel American Indians of yore, and go to die in a cave when you get sick, then your point WILL be correct.
My logic is good logic because even if you opt out of buying insurance and then get sick you will go to an emergency room and beyond and my higher insurance rates will subsidize your sub-par healthcare.
No they won’t. I’ve been to the emergency room, and paid 100% out of pocket, when I had a high-deductible plan. The same would be true if I went now. So you wouldn’t subsidize me one bit.
Point is that it’s still a *choice* as to whether or not I want to pay for other people’s health care or not.
Packman,
I commend your financial responsibility and congratulations on having good enough health to be so responsible. However most sick people without health insurance are unable to live up to their financial responsibilities because they are obviously not in good health by definition.
Public policy (or even private insurance company policy) is not made for the exceptions but for the averages. All of my points are valid when speaking for the rule and your point is valid for your personal exception so far.
However, if you ever had a serious accident or became really sick, your valid points and your financial responsibility would vanish as quickly as your heath.
and at worst hubristic.
That is Bill for sure.
Cause he is healthy and will never ever ever need medical coverage. My comment still stands. What would you do if you wife- you do have one, oh yeah-nope. IF you had a wife, she would want those pesky yrly exams, and frankly, in your paradigm, why have insurance at all? Just pay cash. Or don’t get exams.
Don’t get your teeth done either.
And INS of all kinds are supposed to cover all least risk vs highest risk and spread that out. Which means, technically as INS reads, it covers those at the bottom, one way or another.
Then again, INS is skrooing us all.
This is for Bill- YIPPEE Capitalism- steal it all, skroo em all.
Thank you, Rio. Lucid, rational, accurate. Why are you engaging these naifs?
PS. They are “using” the health care system even if they never so much as take an aspirin. The fact that we don’t have to worry about cholera, or typhus, or feces in our drinking water–or available medical care if we DO become sick or injured is because of a publicly supported health system.
Exactly, ahansen.
ahansen,
Thank you,
And your point was too as usual.
I pay $284 for a family of 4 in CA. Anthem. $30 doc visits.
I would like to see the new HC bill include that the obese pay more, if they choose to be pigs, they should pay more.
Scaling co-pays based on BMI could be an interesting idea… a direct financial incentive for individuals to stay reasonably healthy.
Yes, but how much does your company contribute?
“…….obese pay more……..”
Okay………as long as there is a rebate program to refund the extra money I paid in, when I keel over and die prematurely of a heart attack or stroke.
Really……all this complaining about overweight people is sounding like all the foreigners blaming all the world’s problems on the USA. Nobody considers that a lot of this has to do with the changes/turmoil in the J6P working environment.
I gained all my excess weight, while working 60-70 hours/week on second shift, and watching kids all day, while the ex went to school to be an RN. I dare anyone on this board to try working the same schedule as I did for 10 years, and NOT gain a lot of weight…….the one guy that avoided the problem, did so by smoking about 3 packs/day.
Now, society benefited, because:
-The ex is now an RN, making double the money she did in her previous job.
-The kids benefitted, by having a stay-at-home dad most of the time. (all three are grown and doing okay)
-My primary job on second shift was supervising newbie aircraft mechanics, so they became productive employees for the company I worked for, while at the same time, keeping them from making mistakes that killed planeloads of people, or racking up huge bills to repair damaged airplanes.
Nobody cared about what I weighed, as long as I generated tax payments/billable hours/income to pay the bills…….but now that the my income is stagnating/going down, and the chances that I might have a catastrophic medical condition are going up, everyone is racing to see who can be the first to throw me under the bus.
All you guys that complain about overweight people,remind me of the old saying “……born on third base, and think they hit a home run”.
Now that I’m laid-off, maybe I’ll just fix the problem by doing meth………
Being over weight is seen by many as being weak minded and having a lack of will power.
I STILL do not get why people would *want* to have insurance cover medical procedures and medicines that cost under $1-2k . Isn’t the whole point of insurance to insure against *catastrophic* events? If so, why would you want your catostrophic event coverage to cover your routine health care needs?
It seems like people’s minds are bass ackwards. Do you call up your insurance company to pay for your oil change? If you need a new transmission, do you call State Farm? I mean, that is 1-2k right there… more on a german car!
What it really seems like is people are saying they want basic and routine health care for *free*, or they want someone else to pay for it. Dammit, you were willing to spend $1500 on a flatscreen TV, well, go get your damn flu shot for $50 !
Your mammogram is going to be $500..? Well, it’s better than damn BREAST CANCER isn’t it? Oh it’s expensive to be old and have your body break down, and you didn’t save for that when you were working??? Well just take the money from the people who did save, it’s not like they wanted a better life…
Stuff happens, and that is why insurance was invented. If you get in a huge car wreck and need spinal surgery, you should buy insurance to pay for that. Oh, didn’t want to spend money on that before you got on the road? Well tough luck jones, I guess you will be paralyzed for life now.
THOSE are the consequences that motivate people to get off their ass and earn some money. They put some hustle under your butt to *produce and save* more so you can have a safety net for you and yours. And it’s when we produce more that we have more wealth and abundance, and the cost of things go down, because we have more of it produced!
NOT ONCE has anyone proposing a govt plan shown how it will *produce* more health care to increase supply and drive price down. I think we would get more mileage out of free med school for doctors and nurses than any damn wealth redistribution scheme.
Isn’t the whole point of insurance to insure against *catastrophic* events? Back in the 50s and 60s, that used to be the case. Then almost none had health insurance that covered things such as preventive care, office visits, prescriptions. Now health insurance is considered necessary to cover all those expenses, and more. If you believe the best answer to your question if ‘yes’, you’re in a small minority.
Count me in that small minority then
Your mammogram is going to be $500..? Well, it’s better than damn BREAST CANCER isn’t it?
Damn it must be nice to have perfect lives you guys.
Nothing goes wrong, no one in your family makes under $100k per yr, no one -oh hellll it must be really nice to live in your perfect worlds.
If mammos were as cheap as they should be, then ins would not be necessary, but so far we are talking over $2500 for the basics this yr. And I left out some.
At a Negative -35% of my income, can’t afford it.
But then I am not perfect and don’t live in a perfect world.
Where DO you guys live?
LOL a ‘Housing bubble” that is where they live, Bubble Boys.
When my husband was a contract employee in CNY we paid $1350/month for Blue Cross/Blue Shield. They were the cheapest. That was 2002.
Mine’s $219 including dental and vision. I’ve been with this same insurer since 2004. Not once have I been denied any procedure or medication.
How much do you want to be 80% of the uninsured spend $219 or more on cable ans cell phone bills every month?
bet that is
Our premium on an individual Kaiser HMO plan is $900- mo for 2 healthy adults. We treadmill every morning & eat right, and still pay for being over 50. Last year we paid out almost $14,000- to Kaiser in premiums, co-pays, and drugs for an eye disease (a risk we could not control) that was diagnosed after signing up 7 yrs ago. The eye drops fell off there formulary. $110 a pop X 4 kinds each prescription fill.
Health insurance is killing us. 1/4 the income and we are paying so much out for health care.
You are paying a lot but maybe less than a similar, top of the line Blue Cross of California comprehensive HMO which would run about $1700 a month for 2 healthy adults over 50. HOWEVER this Blue Cross plan would not even be available to anyone unless they had the same type plan since 1994 and were healthy! I know it happened to us. When I left California, our good, (in coverage, not price) old plan was not available to new subscribers AT ANY PRICE.
Good luck to you..
Would you rather pay $14K and have the the eye disease treated or pay $0 and not have it treated? Or if you do have it treated, you wait for months and month to see a specialist. Because that is what govt run health care will lead to. It is the case in England and Canada. Each Canadian province publishes their wait times for all sorts of procedures and is available online. Do some research and you will be shocked at the wait times. Even cancer surgery wait times are in months.
The other thing is with a private system you always have the option to pay for things yourself. Yes it may bankrupt you. But given a choice between suffering or death and bankruptcy, I’ll take bankruptcy any day. In a govt run system you are at the mercy of a bureaucrat. He says no to your procedure, that’s it. You have no other options. And it happens all the time in govt run systems.
In England there was a recent decision by the govt run health system to no longer provide steroid injections to sufferers of back pain. Instead they would get to see an accupuncturistis lowerinstead because the cost is lower . An “injection” is surgery that involves an anesthesiologist, an x-ray technician, a surgeon, nurses, the works. I know this because I had 3 of these injections myself. Each one cost $1700 of which insurance paid 80%. And I’m very happy I did because afterward, 90% of my back pain went away. Still comes and goes every now and then but even the worst day pain wise today is nowhere near what I was going through pre-injections. Some days I could barely get out of bed. I would have paid the full $1700 if I had to. I would have paid $17,000. But if I lived in England right now, I’d be in a world of hurt right now.
Here is the story: tinyurl dot com l8s8xk
Sorry- “there” s/b “their
We hade Blue Cross, and after years of paying an individual premium, I had an emergency from an intestinal bacteria. Really serious stuff, that came on fast, and originated from eating out.Almost died. My ER/hospital bill was $22,000- in 2002. Anyway, we had to hire an Attorney to coach us on getting the claim paid and protect our credit. BC is bad news. The Attorney was terrific and quite a bargin, considering. He said denial of claims with all health care ins. companies kept him busy.
Eddie,
US private insurance is the best system in the world, unless we get sick. Here’s our “profit driven” corporate propagandized, worldwide joke model in action. From Reuters:
“California’s Real Death Panels: Insurers Deny 21% of Claims”
Link: http://tinyurl.com/lodqc7
No rationing here….
Included in Hoa, and a renter. Not spending the $.
Well, we do know that they are both highly emotional issues, and in America today it’s all about the emos. For a lot of folks the images of someone’s junior at a school desk or someone’s granny in an ICU are virtual blank checks.
You have to look at it another way.
The real rate of inflation in the past decade has been very high. What keeps the perceived rate of inflation down is that many goods of daily use (clothes, toys, building materials etc) as well as business/luxury items (computers, cars etc) have not been inflating as much in price. That’s because of imports and the global supply chain that has succeeded in keeping prices low.
Inflation in the cost of services has gone up partly because salaries have (till about a year ago) been going up steadily, at least for the skill sets that these services require. There is increased regulation that has made it difficult and expensive to offer these services. People’s expectations have changed as well - by 1990 standards today’s campuses look like fancy resorts.
One of the main reasons for this is that most of education and healthcare can’t be outsourced.
Outsourcing is what has kept labor costs down for the past decade or so.
Ding ding ding ding, we have a winner!
When there’s no where else to go, those who run a service can charge whatever they want.
Here’s another reason:
Americans of all ages are lazy. Young people would rather play video games than study. Colleges are teaching remedial classes taht should have been taught effectively in high school. So colleges have to raise the costs.
Also because Americans are lazy, they are obese. That greatly increases the number of people with preexisting conditions, driving up health care costs.
So American laziness is the connection between higher education costs and higher health care costs.
Nothing like a simplistic answer for a real world, complex problem. Never mind that Americans work longer hours than any other industrialized nation. We’re all just a bunch of fat, lazy bastards.
Remember also that cancer is caused by laziness.
So is asthma.
I’m obese………..but I can give you about 500 references, and I can guarantee you that NOBODY will call me “lazy”.
I have a friend that can not pass up an alcoholic drink. If he sees a beer or bottle of whiskey, he must have it. Me, I can go months between drinks.
He is pretty skinny because he never eats real food. Me, not so much.
I think calling people lazy is just a way to make oneself appear more superior.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to start this prejudice shit with
penalizing over weight people . All insurance forms ask for the weight ,so I think its being done anyway .
The Insurance Companies already raise costs on parties between 55 and 65, especially until you reach 65 when you get a break by
Medicare being cheaper . I don’t know why the 55 to 65 group get hit so hard ,but I suspect its because they are in their peak earning years and are more willing to pay high medical costs because this is when health fears start sitting in (like having a heart attack ,cancer etc. ) . If you give the Insurance Companies a inch ,they will take a mile . They are already conjuring up bogus pre-existing claims to deny a claim .
i can just see it now .
Patient : “Am I approved yet ? ”
Insurance Company : “Well ,your five pounds overweight ,and sorry that will disqualify you for full coverage .”
The insurance Industry has always been able to determine risk factors ,but should health insurance be put on that level
that you don’t get insured if you might make a claim ?
“Americans spend more time at work than their British, Canadian, French, German and Japanese counterparts.” Boston Globe
My Grandpappy always told me those darn Brits, Canooks, French, German and Japanese were the laziest people he’d EVER seen……
Because no one has the testicular fortitude to make tough decisions on either issue. I’ve been relatively impressed with the DC school chancellor Rhee. She’s been forcing teachers and administrators to cut costs and meet standards, and doing a pretty good job of it. Then I learned this week that she gets paid $275k/year. Insanity.
One thing that’s driving me absolutely crazy lately is the repeated claim that Health Care makes up 1/6th of our economy. Obama said it again last night. But it’s not said in the context of “omg, we’re spending 1/6th of our GDP on Health Care and that needs to stop.” It’s always said in the context of “Health Care makes up 1/6th of our economy and therefore must be protected or there will be financial consequences.”
Why is spending more on a necessity considered a net positive? Insanity.
>Then I learned this week that she gets paid $275k/year. Insanity
Well if she can improve public school in DC by significant margins and hold down cost at the same time, I say she is worth at least a $1 million in my books. Anyone who can tame the public school system in a place like DC and take on the teachers’ union has my pocketbook.
She’s making strides, it appears. We won’t know for sure for many, many years. I’m not getting my hopes up considering the huge obstacles she has yet to tackle.
You do have to wonder though, what good all of that money could have done if it were used to buy school supplies and teaching materials instead of paying her salary.
why shouldn’t she make 275K? compare that to the salary of some clap-trap CEO and she’s earning her keep. 100k plus seems to be considered “normal” for you “professionals” out there, and you just take care of yourself, not oversee a staff and dozens of schools. She’s probably saving millions of dollars….
You know as a “professional” when I finish a project I often save millions for clients too. Difference between me and Ms. $275K a year is I am paid by private companies, she’s paid by taxpayers. If I screw up, I’m fired. If she screws up, she gets a raise.
Now if she can get the kids to read, write and speak English without swearing or using the ‘N’ word…she’d be worth every penny of that Million.
It would also be nice to eradicate the word “like” from the under 18 vocabulary. I can like, barely, like understand my girlfriends like 12 year old when he like talks to me.
Like oh my god. It’s really like annoying.
Rob:
I think they are trained that way, because you need a dead end person to do a dead end job and be happy with it.
But, Barry cut the money for the voucher program so the minority kids are screwed. His little darlings go to private school.
Why is that important to YOU?
Seems like three things.
1) Because, we keep throwing money at the problem. Just like any other market, if you throw money at it, they raise the costs.
Basically, a lot of the policies tword medicine and education are inflationary. College too expensive. Fine. Make student loans larger. Medicine too expensive? Better raise medicare alotments.
2) I think you also have to remember the quality of care has gone up. We probably treat more conditions than we used to and are trying new things to extend peoples lives. We should all be OK with that. Its not like we are starving because we spend too much on medicine. Seems like we have more available resources to spend on medicine.
3) Also people are increasing risk behavior with risky activities like extreeme sports.
Those “new things” we are using to improve peoples’ lives usually got their start by govt funding.
The myth that private industry created all the tecnological advances in medicine is a lie. They only take over once the expensive part is paid for by the taxpayers (NIH, govt grants to research labs and private companies, public universtities and hospitals, etc.).
Another fine example of privatizing the profits and socializing the risks/costs.
Because neither is paid directly by people. Health care is billed bi-weekly with your paycheck so no one shops around to see what the treatment options are for what ever goes wrong with them. Tuition is either reduced by financial aid or debt funded (so doesn’t impact decision makers now). Combine that with parents who believe that the only way their child will succeed is via college and you have all the ingridents you need for quite a few price hikes.
Polly disagreed with me one day but I posted it’s the lawyers. Mal practice insurance + defensive medicine. What brothers me is the idea the 30 - 40 million people will be covered but this will save money. Call me skeptical. Why should some who smoked for 20 years and is dying of terminal cancer not be dropped ? Or forced to sell every asset ? Yesterday at the bus stop I saw a very overweight women sipping Coke and eating 3 jelly doughnuts. Who wants to pay her insurance ? Raise your hands !
As long as we can also drop:
-people who drink alcohol
-have unprotected sex
-ride motorcycles
-participate in sports (so many sports-related injuries!)
-travel overseas (many diseases)
-etc.
Keep attacking everyone else’s vice, and they’ll soon be coming for yours.
They are both run by liberals.
But are they fat or skinny liberals?
There is a house for sale down the street from me. It has been for sale since I moved here, almost 3 years ago. Started out at $949,000. Lowered to $899,000 and then $849,000 and then $799,000 which is the current asking price. Drove by it this morning, it is now “under contract”.
The house is owned by a contractor who buys up older houses, fixes them up and sells them. In my neighborhood, he has 4 for sale right now including the one now under contract. All of them are empty. I’ve seen all of them inside, and he does a very good job renovating. And not just a coat of paint, but new kitchens, bathrooms, floors, etc. The other 3 have been for sale anywhere from 6 months to 18 months give or take. The builder is one my neighbor’s son in law and I sort of know him, met him once at a BBQ the neighbors were hosting. I live in an area where houses are anywhere from 30 to 50 years old, lots of acreage, well established community with house sizes anywhere from 3000 to 6000 sq ft, a of the houses have tennis courts. And we back up to a federally protected wildlife preserve. There is a hospital nearby and a dozen or so medical buildings next to it. A fair share of doctors live here who work there. My daughter’s pediatrician our diagonal neighbor and he’s lived there for 20 years. My neighbors (whose son in law is the builder) have lived there since they built the house in 1973. So not much in the way of ARMs or interest only mortgages taken out in 2005 kind of thing, at least I can’t see that being the case.
I can’t remember the last time a house actually did sell, maybe a year ago. The only ones I know of were the ones the builder bought to tear down. A few have come and gone on the market, with owners pulling them after unable to sell.
Yes I know, under contract doesn’t mean sold. But even under contract is going a lot further than anything else I’ve seen in a long time. I do wonder if the $8K tax credit has anything to do with it, but I doubt a first time buyer would be buying something that expensive. You never know.
NAR BS.
“The house is owned by a contractor who buys up older houses, fixes them up and sells them. In my neighborhood, he has 4 for sale right now including the one now under contract. All of them are empty.”
Stupid is as stupid does.
And I actually forgot to mention…..he bought another one recently. I think the owner died. I used to say hi to her walking my dog. An elderly woman, I’d guess 80ish, always on the front porch. House never went up for sale, at least there was no sign in the yard. And then one day, I see his “Joe Smith Homes” sign in the front yard and one of those big construction dumpster things in the front yard. No work has started, but I expect it to start soon.
I do wonder how he manages to keep afloat, but he does and obviously has money to keep on buying to his collection.
Sounds like a neighbourhood that is effectively closed for business. Current owners don’t need to sell and no one is willing to buy a the high wishing prices. The current owners should enjoy the remaining time they have living in the bliss of ignorance, cause eventually a few sales are going to shatter the illusion.
If you get any info on what happens to the under contract house, let us know.
NAR BS…yeah you got me. I’m Larry Yun in disguise. Darn, and I was so close.
NAR BS=Tripping around the truth=you.
Uh huh. And like I said before this is all part of an elaborate plan by the NAR to convince you to go out and buy 7 homes. You see over at NAR HQ, we were banging our heads trying to come up with ways to get people to buy houses. One day we had this brilliant idea to blog on a housing bubble blog where 99% of the posters would rather have a root canal than buy real estate, since that’s the target market for us.
Is it working?
Nothing works for you. It ought to be self-evident by now.
“From NPR Frank Langfitt:
Sharps cut granite for kitchen counters in Maryland. The plunge in the housing market ended that.
“They just came to us after our shift was over and said: ‘This shift has been eliminated and the company no more exists,’ ” he says.
By any measure, the human toll of this recession has been great. More people are jobless for longer periods than at any time since the late 1940s. In the past year, almost 3.4 million homes went into foreclosure. And trillions of dollars in stock market wealth vanished.
David Kennedy, a professor of American history at Stanford University, says his father was unemployed for seven years during the Great Depression.
Kennedy says as painful as unemployment is today, it doesn’t approach what it was like back then.
In 1930, Kennedy’s parents — Bert and Mary — lived in a mining camp in Washington state.
“They went away on their honeymoon and came back approximately a month later and discovered the company he’d been working for — the mining company — had gone bankrupt,” Kennedy says.
The couple spent the next seven years scratching out a living in a ghost town.
“They lived like hermits in this mountain fastness where they were snowbound for seven or eight months of the year in the winter,” he says. “I know he did a little trapping and probably sold the furs in Seattle or Spokane.”
Niall Ferguson, a professor at Harvard University and the author of The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World, doubts it.
Ferguson says that after the fright of last fall, people are beginning to relax.
“They no longer regard this as the end of the world, and although they’re not going to rush out to the shopping malls, waving plastic cards in the way they used to, nor are they going to revert to the behavior patterns of their grandparents who were scarred by the Depression,” he says.”"
We won’t yet, but when this drags on for a decade digger a bigger hole with each crash, you might see a more permanent attitude adjustment.
let me add… “well, not YET anyway.”
That story about his parents doesn’t ring true to me.
If they had enough money to pay for a ONE MONTH honeymoon, why didn’t they have enough money to MOVE OUT of the abandoned mining town with 7-8 months winter? Why in heck would they chose to stay there for the next 7 years? Plenty of broke people during the depression made do raising their own food on a small plot of land - there’s plenty of places in WA that don’t have 7-8 months of snow-bound winter.
Shades of Bill Douglas’ story of going East to law school in a boxcar taking care of a herd of sheep. His own children called him a liar on that one.
Depends where they went. A month spent camping is $500. That’s how my in-laws spent their honeymoon since they were pretty much dead broke when they got married.
Yeah, Dennis.
Banks Load Up on Mortgages, in New Way.
WSJ 9-10-09
Banks have been silent partners in the meteoric rise of the Federal Housing Administration.
In the past year, the nation’s financial institutions have snapped up securities backed by Ginnie Mae, a government-owned agency that guarantees payments on mortgages backed by the FHA. That helped drive demand for Ginnie securities and created an outlet for billions of dollars of FHA-backed loans made to borrowers who in many cases couldn’t afford big down payments.
As of June 30, the roughly 8,500 federally insured banks and thrifts were holding $113.5 billion of Ginnie securities, compared with just $41 billion a year earlier.
Banks have discovered yet another heads-we-win, tails-taxpayers-lose bet to gamble on, courtesy of Uncle Sam.
REITs prepare for commercial real estate bust
Real estate investment trusts raising capital, forming in anticipation of fire-sale prices
September 10, 2009
With the worst of the recession subsiding, people are looking for deals.
From foreclosed houses to “cash for clunkers” and surplus back-to-school supplies, everything’s for sale cheap these days, or at least it seems that way.
But taking advantage of recession-induced fire sales isn’t quite as simple as hearing about them.
That’s especially true in commercial real estate, where the investment equivalent of a death watch is under way for highly leveraged properties.
So far, buyers and sellers remain far apart on price. But many would-be grave dancers are betting they’ll gain the upper hand when loans come due over the next couple of years.
The pickings could be rich: shopping malls, warehouses, condos, hotels, suburban offices — thousands of holdings available at dimes on the dollar as time runs out for their owners.
When all that real estate changes hands, publicly traded real estate investment trusts stand to make out like bandits, some bullish analysts maintain. Those so-called REITs (rhymes with “treats”) supposedly possess the management skill, deal-making savvy and overflowing war chests to take maximum advantage of hard times.
Already, REITs have raised at least $20 billion in new capital this year. They own about 15 percent of all commercial real estate, leaving plenty of room for expansion, said Paul Adornato, senior REIT analyst at BMO Capital Markets, which is expecting record attendance at its real estate investment conference this week.
REIT stocks have staged a comeback over the past few months based on a simple investment proposition.
“Financially distressed owners, mostly private developers, will have to liquidate their properties,” Adornato explained. “Publicly traded REITs will be positioned to buy those properties at bargain prices.”
anybody around here feel qualified to run an REIT?
the HBB-REIT .. get on board.
That’s especially true in commercial real estate, where the investment equivalent of a death watch is under way for highly leveraged properties. For some reason, the phrase “Generalisimo Francisco Housing Market is STILL dead,” is running through my head.
REITs prepare for commercial real estate bust
A watched pot
neverseldom boils.“A watched pot seldom boils.” True. The REITs will jump to early.
Roidy
U.S. poverty rate rises to 11-year high. Sep 10, 2009
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. poverty rate jumped to its highest level in 11 years in 2008, according to a government report on Thursday that underscored the impact of the worst recession since the Great Depression on households.
The Census Bureau said the poverty rate rose to 13.2 percent in 2008, the highest level since 1997, from 12.5 percent in 2007. It said this was the first statistically significant increase in the annual poverty rate since 2004.
“There were 39.8 million people in poverty in 2008, up from 37.3 million in 2007, the department said.
Real median household income fell 3.6 percent to $50,303 in 2008.
“This breaks a string of three years of annual income increases and coincides with the recession that started in December 2007,” the department said.
The longest and deepest recession in 70 years has been marked by rising unemployment as companies aggressively cut payrolls to cope with slumping demand.
“Real median household income fell 3.6 percent to $50,303 in 2008.”
Does not require comment.
Aw, come on. Let’s comment anyway ;-)…
Combotechie(tm)- Got Cash?
New York’s Tavern on the Green files bankruptcy
Sep 10, 2009
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Tavern on the Green, a landmark restaurant in New York’s Central Park, filed for bankruptcy on Wednesday.
In court documents, the privately held restaurant, which opened its doors in 1934, listed both assets and debts in a range of $10 million to $50 million.
Tavern on the Green, known for romantic lighting and mirrors that made it a favorite spot for marriage proposals and tourists, can seat up to 1,500 people in six dining rooms. It is housed in a building that was originally designed as a sheepfold.
The restaurant was run by various managements till Warner LeRoy — the creator of the popular Maxwell’s Plum — acquired its lease after it was shut down by Restaurant Associates.
LeRoy reopened the restaurant in 1976 after spending about $10 million to renovate it and add original paintings, antique prints and etched mirrors.
They LOST the lease too:
Tavern on the Green is requesting Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
Tavern Chief Executive Jennifer Oz LeRoy blames the financial crisis and the city’s decision not to renew its license for the Central Park landmark.
The new license was granted to Dean J. Poll, who runs the Central Park Boathouse restaurant.
The federal bankruptcy filing lists 20 creditors. The New York Hotel Trades Council was owed nearly $1.78 million. Other creditors included the New York Tent Company, American Express, the Parks Department and Gotham Seafood.
Poll, who takes over Jan. 1, plans to renovate with green technology. The original building, which dates to the 19th century, housed sheep.
LeRoy’s father, Warner, took over the Tavern in 1976. He died in 2001.
• Foreclosures fall
(Link shown on the MarketWatch home page — article below:)
Sep 10, 2009, 4:17 a.m. EST
U.S. Aug. foreclosures off 1% from July, up 18% vs. year ago
By Robert Daniel, MarketWatch
TEL AVIV (MarketWatch) — U.S. foreclosure filings in August fell less than 1% from July and rose 18% from the year-earlier month, the real-estate consultants RealtyTrac reported.
Foreclosure filings — defined as default notices, scheduled auctions and bank repossessions — were reported on 358,471 U.S. properties during the month, the Irvine, Calif., firm said. That’s 1 of every 357 U.S. housing units.
Real estate owned by banks dropped 13% in August compared with July, which had marked the monthly high for 2009. But at the same time, a record number of properties entered default or were scheduled for foreclosure auction in August, RealtyTrac Chief Executive James J. Saccacio said in a statement late on Wednesday.
Nevada maintained its status as the state with the highest foreclosure rate: 1 in every 62 units was subject to a foreclosure filing in August, RealtyTrac reported. For the month, foreclosure filings totaled 17,902 units, down 8% from July and up 53% from August 2008.
Florida was No. 2 in foreclosure rates, at 1 in every 140 units receiving a filing, and California was No. 3, at 1 in every 144 units.
In absolute numbers, California had the highest number of foreclosures, with 92,326 properties receiving a filing in August. That’s down 15% from July 2009 and down 9% from August 2008.
…
Given California’s ever-higher unemployment rate and housing price collapse, how could the number of foreclosures possibly have fallen?
Why is the news coming from Tel Aviv?
If an 18% YOY increase in foreclosure is considered a fall, by what percentage would foreclosures have to increase to be considered an increase?
Another interesting Foreclosure Radar observation.
In almost all the Zip codes that I have looked at in Orange County (about
2 items stand out.
1. The number of ditressed homes listed are somewhere between 6 X and 11X the actual inventory using MLS, Realtor.com, Redfin, Zillow & Zip.
2. On the Bank owned properties the list shows Est. Bid and Est Value. The bid most often corresponds to what the bank got it back for, 1st plus tax’s etc. The interesting thing is that all of the ones listed as Bank owned are a minimum negative usually -10K to -60K max to actually positive on the Est Value vs. the Est Bid. In other words the banks are foreclosing only on the ones that they can make money on or take a minimum loss.
In almost every case the ones that have a 75K or greater loss when they hit the NOT date disappear or get re-listed with a new NOT date
Thought all might find this intereating.
The smiley face is suppose to be an “8″ with an “)” after it. Meaning 8 Zip codes I have looked at. How do you make a sad face…hehe
Here’s a sad face:
Type a colon, dash, and left parenthesis.
Bwhahahaha!!
Another family values hypocrite GOP’er bites the dust
http://tinyurl.com/mxqo2d
Ooooh! Thanks! I love these stories!
On the tape, Duvall describes the “little eye-patch underwear” worn by one of the women. He refers to the age gap between her and him, after a recent birthday made them 18 years apart. “Now, you’re getting old, man, I am going to have to trade you in,” he said he told her.
And he mentions a second woman, in less detail.
“Cher, Shar, Shar — oh, she is hot. I talked to her yesterday. She goes, ‘So are we finished?’ ” Duvall says, adding that he replied no. He continues: “And I go, ‘You know about the other one, but the other one doesn’t know about you.’ “
Yeah, a realllllll class act, there.
And not only classy, also a Brainiac, huh? I know! I’ll discuss my sex life in lurid detail whilst sitting next to a microphone!
Now I’m going to go listen to the actual tape, if I can bear it.
Oly, that is priceless.
Even funnier:
The Capitol Resource Institute, a conservative, self-described “pro-family” advocacy organization that had given Duvall a 100% score for his voting record on issues of concern to the group, denounced the lawmaker in a statement.
That is hilarious ArizSlim…
It’s what you get when you harp on everyone else for the very thing you yourself are guilty of…..
Friggin hypocrites.
La Cage aux Folles & The Birdcage all over again !
The best part is now he is claiming that he never had the affair and was just telling stories. Taking a look at his picture I think he might be telling the truth.
An angry birther/deather telling the truth?
Doubtful.
The congressman that was listening to his “story” has been removed from the Ethics Committee.
It was actually Assemblyman Jeff Miller of District 71 in Southern CA. He was chuckling up a storm as Duvall was telling the story. Be he wishes he would have excused himself momentarily for a restroom break or similar?
Be = “Bet”
November 26, 2008
Categories: Bad behavior
Pelosi: Rangel ethics investigation will be done by early January
Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), in a statement just released by her office, said a House ethics committee investigation into Ways and Means Chairman Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.) will be completed by early January 2009, which is officially the end of the current 110th Congress.
Ex, Here we are in September and our dingbat Speaker has failed to take any action against Mr. Rangel who we know took a $1,000,000 donation to alter legislation, understated his assets on an official campaign financial report by $650,000 and violated many, many rental apartment regulations and other illegal real estate transactions. Even the NYT called for him to leave, yet he still he has Chairmanship and she hasn’t done squat despite her promises to the contrary. Unfortunately, thievery and lies are not a partisan characteristic, they run across parties lines. At least that poor sucker chose to stick it to “hot” women instead of the rest of us (sorry for the slightly off color reference).
When everyone is corrupt, no one can be punished.
He can’t be corrupt………he’s a Democrat.
She’s too busy saying things like this:
“Last night, President Obama delivered what I believe to be one of the greatest speeches ever delivered in the Congress of the United States,” the speaker told reporters Thursday at her weekly Capitol Hill press conference.
One of the greatest? Were we watching the same speech? The Kool Aid overfloweth in San Francisco.
Don’t get me wrong — I like Obama.
But last night’s speech? Well, let’s say that, to my ears, it started out strong, then it went off into wonk-land. Before the end, it got interesting again.
Last night, I was hoping for a lot more audacity.
Methinks that he should have spent more time studying some of his campaign classics. Or the victory speech in Chicago. Or, what the heck, his inaugural.
It was the same speech he’s given 100 times on the subject. Only difference was Pelosi was there in the background with those Botox induced facial ticks. A cool drinking game would be a shot each time she blinks or smiles. I would have been wasted by the second standing ovation.
How about a pay-per-view with people throwing rotten fruit at Pelosi’s face? That would fix the deficit.
Does anyone else think that Nancy Pelosi has some sort of idol worship going on for Mr. Obama? She’s always standing up, clapping, jumping around. Her over-the-top enthusiasm creeps me out.
Don’t be so smug, it’ll come back to bite you on the butt.
Okay, here are the racists, sexists in one grouping.
ed/pres/rob
wow you guys really suc
Loved the ‘Marijuana Outlets’ link above the article…..:-)
In Brazil many people would laugh at this and make funny jokes on TV. Many men would admire him for being a player and some women would be more interested.
His wife might be almost as angry about him talking about it and getting caught as she is at him for doing it. Many people would be disappointed in him but he would probably be re-elected because the chances that he had been a family-value crusader/hypocrite are slim.
Mike in Bend …If you happen to be around ,I just left one last message for you on yesterdays thread . This was in response to your last post that was apparently made late last night or early this morning .
Thanks for your time, I have learned a few things from injury, that is,rehabbing myself to become a more successful wage earner will be critical for me, as EZ housing money is gone, whether I want it to be or not. Thank you for listening, I hope you do k’now that we have not decided one way or the other, but wanted to be sure should we have to save our capital while I get on my feet. That answer I got from a real estate lawyer, and the people here have made me second guess the walking idea, because although it may be legal, it is not a very moral thing to do. the i guess “i should be so lucky to make bad decisions like this one” was a faulty statement, because if we had not bought this place,we would have far greater than 150k in the bank, and no moral dilemna.
Mike
Mike is so commited to being exonerated. Reminds me of an ex-boyfriend who cheated on me and just couldn’t stand it that I didn’t want to continue be friends. That somehow if I overlooked his moral trangressions he could still see himself as the “nice” guy. Not.
You know it Salad ….You ought to see his last post ….talk about true colors .
Mike …I kinda agree that a real job would do wonders for you ,but ,do what you want to do . There I go ,I said I wasn’t going to say any more .
Like the shrinks write in their notes, “…subject tries to present himself in the best possible light…”
Forgiving people is sooooo overrated.
Forgiving people is sooooo overrated.
What was it you said yesterday, X-gsfixr? That “in the HBB dictionary sympathy comes between sh*t and sy*ph*ilis”?
And I exclaimed with genuine joy that such a beautiful sentiment was the perfect statement for a cross-stitched sampler for my kitchen wall? I meant it, too.
Well, today’s sentiment is just as good! Thanks, my good fellow.
(Now, maybe you were being sarcastic, but I don’t care. I’m going to go with the sentiment anyway.)
Wow, this board has changed! A year or two ago, I would have seen more folks cheering him on to walk away.
I’m in the “its a business decision” camp WITH THE PROVISIONS that if one decides to walk, first and foremost they do it without stripping the house, no moaning about “being a victim”, and no complaining when their credit scores get trashed beyond their expectations (and they can’t get the job they want or they have to overpay for car insurance for the next 10 years).
Kim:
I think the difference is mike HAS money saved and wants to buy another house and stiff the bank on the one he is living in.
That doesn’t set right with me.
I wish i could stiff a landlord for a year…all my CC would be paid off and I could have a better credit report.
Its not really a business decision since he has not been had a major setback or illness that made he stop paying..or a bank that refused to cooperate.
I agree anyone who strips a house should be made to pay for it and the cost should not be dis-chargeable in BK
HBB Want to know what I think? You are quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.(Rush)
Well at least my kids, wife, and family like me. It is actually my parents who are wishing me to walk, because they are worried about the accident I had when I was 30 that has me down partially disabled for the last decade and four surgeries haven’t helped. But my first job was money under the table, and hard work, so I could not do it hurt, and no disability benefits earned for me when I did get hurt.
Then I went to school to get a teaching licence, but found out among many other body quirks, that my writing hand does not work very well on the chalkboard, as well as playing duck duck goose can be quite painful, and give me a week long flare up of neck and arm and shoulder pain.
I have paid off all my credit card bills, medical bills, and supported my family. Stuff that could not have happened for me had I not some landlord/house money.
Took out 0 heloc’s, but did use credit cards, paid them all off.
Now my parents are scared for my earning potential and don’t want me to spend all my nickles going back to school again for a job I may or may not be able to handle.
and staying in a house I likely can’t pay for.
Since I don’t know any of you, let me just say that some of you are mean, with the exceptions of some who are rational and don’t assume the worst about me (ATE, Pbear, Kim, for example). I was not asking for love and kisses, but neither personal affronts to my character.
I appreciate those who are more like the lawyer that after reviewing our loan contract, letting us know the repercussions of default, minus the condensding comments. My parents (mommy and daddy) say if the loan is secured by the house, and I quit paying the loan, (in order to rent/buy elsewhere), I would have more chances to support myself and family. They don’t like the way that BofA is playing the game right now and I don’t either. So paying the loan or not would be no love lost towards the banks. We do have the house up for sale, and are willing to bring some money to the table to seal the deal, but the market is d.e.d dead.
Why would I trash the house? My shrink says you guys are fooked, that I look good in any light unlike those who are not hostile and cruel. Maybe you feel like I am a troll and you are gettin punk’d! Like why else would you take pleasure in beating a guy up for posing a question related to the housing bubble, then giving my backstory like I want approval. All I asked for was input or advice! I take full responsibilty for all my actions, including doing due diligence regarding my wife’s loan, to know what my legal options are if we can no longer pay. We got in this pickle for taking out a no doc loan, when asking for a mod, the first thing the bank wants to know is what’s your income, not what’s your fico. We got one of the last mainstream no doc loans out there, it’s my fault for assuming I could pay it with appreciation or a good career cuz stuff happens to all of us.
Thats all I wanted help with. My moral compass is my own, you guys have it spinning to the south with your hatred.
Later, guys n gals
Mike ,you managed to get the last word in ,and in addition tell us/me that your moral compass is your own .I guess in the case of all people their moral compass is their own .You started out your discussion talking about you hiding money and all that
junk you were talking about ,and you admitted that you were a speculator that made a bad decision on your last flip on a no doc speculator loan ,that the income didn’t support .
The point is ,why would you think it was mean that I would not want to help you rip off the bank and taxpayers ,especially after you took out a loan that you knew the income could not support
it at the time . You were rolling the dice for easy money . I have a moral compass also that prevents me from aiding and abetting crime . Look, if you want to be viewed as a charity case that deserves the spoils of the up side of real estate gambling ,while you don’t want to pay the down side of your roll of the dice ,than ok ,some people gave you that sympathy . So,go ahead and call me mean ,and I simply
won’t state what I want to call you …OK…because you just want a one-sided discussion .
Besides Mike …..I’m starting to get the impression that you are actually on disability ,which means this Society is already
compensating you for your misfortune in life .
• Gold falls for second day after U.S. jobs data
Big drop there in that gold price — $2, or 0.2%, from $1000/oz to $998/oz …
“The Labor Department’s report came in slightly better than expected: The number of people filing for initial unemployment benefits fell to a seasonally adjusted 550,000 last week, the lowest since mid-July. Economists surveyed by MarketWatch had expected claims to stand at 558,000.”
Big miss on expected claims — 3,000 less than expected, or
(3,000/558,000)*100 = 0.5%
The curse of 09/09/09.
Banks Ease Burden Of Credit Card Debt
Consumer Stress Has Firms More Eager to Bargain
“Several weeks ago, he called Citi and Chase to plead for lower interest rates. Both companies agreed to a 6 percent rate — but only if he closed the account. He did not accept right away as he contemplated how it would affect his credit score.
“Shortly after, a Citi representative called to offer him a zero percent rate for 12 months — again, if he agreed to give up the cards. This time, he accepted immediately. “They just said they wanted to work with me,” he said. ”
www dot washingtonpost dot com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/09/AR2009090903166.html
It appears we can expect more ‘green shoots’ from banks at the next earnings season; they’ll report lower delinquency rates and lower credit outstanding. If they can just kick the mortgage can down the road some more…
American capitalism gone with a whimper
Front page / Opinion / Columnists
27.04.2009
Source: Pravda dot Ru
It must be said, that like the breaking of a great dam, the American decent into Marxism is happening with breath taking speed, against the back drop of a passive, hapless sheeple, excuse me dear reader, I meant people.
True, the situation has been well prepared on and off for the past century, especially the past twenty years. The initial testing grounds was conducted upon our Holy Russia and a bloody test it was. But we Russians would not just roll over and give up our freedoms and our souls, no matter how much money Wall Street poured into the fists of the Marxists.
Those lessons were taken and used to properly prepare the American populace for the surrender of their freedoms and souls, to the whims of their elites and betters.
…
It’s nice to see the newspaper Pravda (translation: Truth) has survived the country where it was born (the former Soviet Union) by two decades running.
From my understanding, there are two words in Russian for “truth”. One word is for literal truth. The other word is for roughly “from my point of view this is what the truth SHOULD be.”
Pravda is the second word.
My college Russian teacher (who was from Leningrad) was fond of telling her students about how she and her fellow citizens of Soviet era Russia used to have to read between and some times right through the lines of their newspaper reports. It strikes me as highly ironic that I often times feel the way about our own MSM reporters these days. I cannot tell if it has always been this way and I just never noticed, or something has changed in recent times with respect to journalistic candor in the US press. I suspect they are as worried about job security as the rest of us, and trying hard not to say anything that might encourage someone powerful to eliminate their positions.
She also made a most discomfiting discovery upon adjusting to American life: She realized after a short time here that the one dictator in her home country was replaced by many petty dictators with their own fiefdoms over here.
* THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
* SEPTEMBER 11, 2009
Role of White House Czars Sparks Battle
By NEIL KING JR.
WASHINGTON — The uproar over former White House adviser Van Jones has heightened attention on the ranks of nonconfirmed policy “czars” within the Obama administration.
The use of special White House advisers and the czar moniker itself go back decades, but government watchers say President Barack Obama has appointed an unusual number of senior coordinators, especially for a president so early in his administration. They have responsibilities ranging from health care and climate change to Afghanistan and the auto sector.
The practice of appointing czars to take on specific jobs goes back at least to Franklin Roosevelt, who had a cadre of advisers to oversee the New Deal. Joseph Eastman, right, was transportation czar to Roosevelt.
Some Republicans, fanned by conservative commentators’ warnings that these advisers constitute a shadow government, have seized on the czar issue to criticize Mr. Obama for trying to push policy initiatives outside normal bureaucratic channels. Republicans, including Tennessee Sen. Lamar Alexander and California Rep. Darrell Issa, say that the use of these special advisers has run amok, and that their powers should be curbed. The issue flared in recent weeks at dozens of congressional town-hall meetings.
eks at dozens of congressional town-hall meetings.
…
Bush had his fair share of czars also. The repubs sure weren’t to worried by the red scare then so why are they worried now?
BTW some of them are nick named czars because of the length of their titles.
LMFAO! These acorn clowns are something else, I may get the to “do” my taxes!
ACORN Officials Videotaped Telling ‘Pimp,’ ‘Prostitute’ How to Lie to IRS
September 10, 2009
An employee at ACORN’s Baltimore office advises a couple posing as a pimp and a prostitute during a videotaped meeting in July.
Officials with the controversial community organizing group ACORN were secretly videotaped offering to assist two individuals posing as a pimp and a prostitute, encouraging them to lie to the Internal Revenue Service and providing guidance on how to claim underage girls from South America as dependents.
In the videotape, made on July 24, James O’Keefe, a 25-year-old independent filmmaker, posed as a pimp with a 20-year-old woman named “Kenya” who posed as a prostitute while visiting ACORN’s office in Baltimore. The couple told ACORN staffers they wanted to secure housing where the woman could continue to maintain a prostitution business.
On the videotape, “Kenya” can be seen telling an ACORN staffer that she earns roughly $8,000 a month. The ACORN employee then suggests to “Kenya” that ACORN could submit a tax return for 2008 showing that she made $9,600 for the entire year — instead of $96,000 — and that ACORN would charge “Kenya” $50 instead of the usual $150 fee for preparing her taxes.
ACORN offers tax preparation and benefits application services free of charge during tax season; it charges nominal fees during non-tax season.
The ACORN staffer can also be seen suggesting that the prostitute list her occupation as a freelance “performing artist.”
“It’s not dancing, trust me,” the “pimp” says.
“But dancing is considered an art,” the ACORN staffer replies. “[Exotic dancers] usually go under performing artists, or yeah, they usually go under performing arts, which will be what you are — a performing artist.”
The “pimp” later says that he and “Kenya” plan to bring up to 13 “very young” girls from El Salvador to work as prostitutes. Although an ACORN staffer points out their plans are illegal, she also suggests that the girls can be claimed as dependents.
‘The ACORN staffer can also be seen suggesting that the prostitute list her occupation as a freelance “performing artist.”’
It doesn’t seem like that much of a stretch.
I may have posted a story earlier this year about the Detroit Church Lady who bought a gun for protection. The Church Lady has finally thrown in the towel.
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090910/METRO08/909100378/1409/With-no-more-fight-left–she-s-leaving-Detroit
“She was committed to Detroit until someone pried open the bars on her home. She called the police, but no one came”.
And so, Bouyer got a gun.
“She is not alone. According to the Michigan State Police, Bouyer is one of more than 5,000 women over age 50 in Detroit who has a license to carry a concealed pistol”.
Can’t blame her one bit, she did all she could and put up with crap for decades. She will fair far better where she is going.
Having her own husband murdered in that neighborhood years ago wasn’t enough to discourage her, but everyone seems to have a limit as to what they will endure.
hmmm… got a special offer from Mirage in Las Vegas .. rooms at $72 for a few weekdays near the end of November. Saturday $116.
recession has legs.
cash.
king.
nuff said.
Currently MGM is desperate to have people fill those rooms! I’m going tomorrow and they are paying me to come! This is the third time in 6 weeks I’ve had ‘paid offers’ to come and I don’t even play much at their casinos! My buddy emailed me last week to tell me he was surprised that Mirage had given him a free room and 75dollars, he did not think his previous play had warranted this giveaway. I guess Vegas is gambling on us nowadays!
Fecaltime!
The Government’s Effort Has Failed
Karl Denninger
Market Ticker
Sep 10, 2009
The Federal Reserve’s latest (through July) G19 update is out, showing consumer credit.
To say that these figures are ugly would be an understatement. In fact, there is simply no way you can spin this - while this contraction in credit has to happen it has horrifying implications if our Washington policymakers don’t get on the stick and deal with the underlying issues here and now instead of pretending that everything is ok or worse, try to “borrow our way to prosperity.”
http://www.321gold.com/editorials/denninger/denninger091009.html
Been discussed a lot the last few days. While the current drop is breathtakingly fast - it’s a relative blip so far compared to the incredible rise over the last 50 years (before which consumer credit was virtually non-existent - imagine that!).
So - “ugly” is relative.
The bankers don’t like it of course because it interrupts their big string of profit gains. They might have to settle for an 90-ft yacht instead of a 100-ft one.
Tavern on the Green filing Chapter 11. Wow!
Ex-AIG adviser who practiced voodoo on victims gets 12 years for fraud
The former money manager also lit candles and engaged a psychic in hopes of warding off damaging testimony from his marks.
By Bruce Kelly
September 8, 2009
A Tennessee rep formerly affiliated with AIG Financial Advisors Inc. spent time making voodoo dolls of his victims to ward off their damaging testimony, prosecutors said.
Barry R. Stokes last year pleaded guilty to multiple counts of embezzlement, as well as mail and wire fraud, and money laundering for stealing $19 million from some 35,000 victims nationwide, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Nashville, Tenn., from their 401(k), health savings, and dependent care accounts.
On Friday, Mr. Stokes, 52, was sentenced in U.S. District Court in Nashville to 12 years in prison after a hearing that presented evidence of his bizarre practices, according to reports in The Tennessean newspaper.
At a pre-sentencing hearing last week, prosecutors also said that Mr. Stokes paid a psychic with a credit card to give him readings while in jail, according to The Tennessean.
He also wrote a letter to the psychic saying that he was lighting candles and throwing salt over his shoulder to keep critics and creditors at bay, according to the report.
Mr. Stokes was registered with AIG Financial Advisors from October 2005 to September 2006, at which point his fraud was discovered and he was fired, according to brokerage records on file with the states where he was licensed to do business.
Market Place NYT
In Florida, Vestiges of the Boom
September 9, 2009
On the corner of Flamingo Road and Pink Flamingo Lane, beyond the putting green, the crystalline lagoon and the Sawgrass Mills mall, a soaring monument to the great condominium bust bakes under the Florida sun.
The Tao Sawgrass, as the twin-towered complex is known, was built on the western fringes of Fort Lauderdale with easy money from the now tottering condo king of American finance: Corus Bancshares of Chicago. Only about 50 of the 396 units have been sold.
The 26-story Tao — begun in 2006, just as the Florida real estate market imploded — is one of the many troubled condominium projects that have mired Corus in red ink and now threaten its survival. Federal authorities are racing to broker a sale of Corus to avert yet another costly banking collapse.
After failing to find a buyer for the entire company, regulators are moving to cleave the bank in two and sell its banking operations and condominium loans separately. The hope is to clinch a deal by the end of the month.
Some big-time real estate investors are circling, among them Thomas J. Barrack, who first made his fortune in the aftermath of the savings and loan crisis; Barry S. Sternlicht, the man behind the Starwood empire; Jay Sugarman of iStar Financial, the public real estate giant; and New York developer Stephen M. Ross, sometimes called the King of Columbus Circle, in league with Lubert-Adler, a big property investor in Philadelphia.
Whatever the outcome, Corus will go down as the great enabler of condo madness, and its travails are a harbinger of the pain yet to come in the troubled world of commercial real estate. More than any other condo lender, Corus epitomized the easy lending and lax oversight of the go-go years — and the pain of the ensuing bust. Its share price, which was nearly $13 in February of 2008, has plummeted into the land of penny stocks, closing at 25 cents Wednesday.
Just in case this hasn’t been mentioned yet:
http://www.americancasinothemovie.com/
“It is rare that a documentary director has the privilege to shoot a film that, while in production, becomes the greatest story of our time. The “worst case scenario” of January 2008, when we began work on American Casino, turned into reality in the year that followed. We were able to follow our characters through Wall Street’s collapse, foreclosure, bankruptcy, homelessness. We watched whole neighborhoods ravaged by the subprime meltdown. I have spent much of my career filming in war zones and post apocalyptic societies — Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan. But I never expected such a disaster at home. To be there, with a camera, while it was happening, telling the story, was certainly the highlight of my career.”
— Leslie Cockburn, Director
Isn’t loose monetary policy a primary cause of the financial mess at hand?
The Financial Times
Overview: Equities ebb after investors cash in
By David Oakley
Published: September 10 2009 19:09 | Last updated: September 10 2009 19:09
Global stocks struggled to build on recent gains on Thursday as profit-taking took some of the steam out of this week’s rally.
However, equities remained close to 11-month highs as optimism over an economic recovery in a loose monetary policy environment continued to underpin the markets.
Asian stocks enjoyed broad gains, although these were not sustained in Europe, where investors were happy to take profits after four consecutive winning sessions on most bourses. US stocks opened higher, however.
The Nikkei 225 Average climbed 2 per cent, its third day of gains in the past four sessions, while the FTSE 100 closed 0.3 per cent down and the pan-European FTSE Eurofirst 300 index closed 0.5 per cent lower. The S&P was up 0.3 per cent at midday.
Nick Nelson, head of European equity strategy at UBS, said: “Equities have had a reasonable run this week, so it’s not surprising to see some profit taking. The market is probably heading for a relative period of quiet until US third quarter results are published early next month.
“We are convinced the economy is turning and the data in general is moving in the right way. We believe the central banks will keep rates very low for a long time, so stocks are benefiting from low rates, while earnings and the economy appear to be recovering.”
Comments by G20 finance ministers at the weekend that they would persist with loose monetary policy for as long as it takes to bring about a sustained global economic revival have set the tone this week, boosting riskier assets, such as emerging market stocks.
…
Phew! TTT sez the boyz are back!
Geithner: Confidence has returned to markets
US Treasury secretary says confidence has replaced last year’s panic in financial markets
September 10, 2009, 3:32 pm EDT
WASHINGTON (AP) — Citing emerging financial sector stability, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said Thursday that a number of government rescue efforts in place since the Wall Street crisis are no longer needed and that banks will repay $50 billion in rescue funds over the next 18 months.
Geithner, testifying before a congressional watchdog panel, said the nation still has a ways to go before “true recovery takes hold.” But he said improved conditions in the banking industry have prompted Treasury to begin winding down emergency support programs.
“The financial system is showing very important signs of repair,” Geithner said. He added later: “I would not want anyone to be left with the impression that we’re not still facing really substantial enormous challenges throughout the US financial system.
The cautious but upbeat tone reflects a growing push by the administration to present the government financial rescue efforts as a success amid lingering public apprehension about the economy.
Geithner was testifying before the Congressional Oversight Panel that monitors Treasury’s $700 billion financial bailout that President George W. Bush and President Barack Obama used to shore up not only banks but the auto industry as well.
Confidence about what?
Insiders sell like there’s no tomorrow
Corporate officers and directors were buying stock when the market hit bottom. What does it say that they’re selling now?
September 10, 2009: 4:24 PM ET
Green shoots or no, if TT Timmy thinks it’s safe to stop shipping billions to AIG and their ilk, it’s fine by me.
This doesn’t change anything. Should his statement prove wrong 6 months down the line and banks threaten to collapse again, what is he going to do? Say, “sorry, you had your chance; no more bailouts this time”, let the system collapse, and draw the ire of everybody for not letting it happen in the first place, or is he going to reinstate all the rescue efforts and respike the punch bowl?
This is similar to Bush withdrawing from Iraq: it was never going to happen because then he would have had to admit that all the hundreds of billions spent going there in the first place was a colossal waste.
If most of us on here are right, then this “support” cannot be withdrawn without suffering the withdrawal symptoms post-haste.
I notice though, that the toxic asset purchase plan (PPIP) has not been suspended.
A watched and temperature-controlled pot never boils.
Sep 10, 2009, 2:49 p.m. EST
US Stocks Rise, Hitting 2009 Highs After Strong Long Bond Sale
By Peter A. McKay
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — Stocks, led by the telecom and energy sectors, rose Thursday to their highest levels this year after well-bid long bond sale.
Also helping markets advance was a larger than expected drop in weekly jobless claims, though the effect was mitigated somewhat by the U.S. trade deficit registering its biggest increase in more than 10 years in July.
The Dow Jones Industrial Average recently was up 73 points, or 0.8%, at 9620. It rose to 9633 during the session, its highest intraday point since Nov. 4.
The technology-focused Nasdaq Composite Index was recently up 1% to 2082 and reached 2082.01, its highest level since Oct. 1. The Standard & Poor’s 500, meanwhile, was recently up nearly 1% to 1043, and traded as high as 1043.62 Thursday, its highest point since Oct. 14.
Given the size of stocks’ rally this summer and September’s track record as the weakest month for the market, many participants have been worried the market is due for a correction. But with the exception of the first day of the month, September has been positive for stocks so far.
“Here we are in September, and everything I read said there was going to be a correction,” said Kent Croft, chief investment officer and manager of the Croft Value Fund. “But I’m not surprised that we’re up. When everybody is saying the same thing, that makes me think that maybe things won’t go that way.”
…
A closely watched pot never boils over.
Post-mania updated version:
A closely watched asset price bubble never bursts.
Someone asked where the term “play date” came from, maybe Palmy, a few weeks ago.
Background: I grew up in the Midwest. Playing in the late 60s and early 70s was often done outside, and it sure wasn’t scheduled, though my mom rang the dinner bell at 6 p.m for us to scoot home.
In the summer, we fished for bluegill at a golf course pond, hunted for lost golf balls (to sell later), played in the sprinklers to cool off, tossed Frisbees, organized football and softball games in the street, set off firecrackers under garbage can lids to lift them as high as phone wires, rode bikes everywhere, including the square, where we would eat ice cream, buy a 45 rpm record, or hang at the school playground jungle gym, where they had asphalt, not wood chips and injury warnings. I wandered down to a friend’s house a block away, barefoot, walked in without knocking, and settled in. They has less strict TV rules and usually Oreos. Winter was much the same, footloose sled-riding, shoveling snow so we could play basketball, even when we could see our breath. On weekend nights, if it wasn’t too cold, we would gather at the corner, maybe play kick the can. If that sounds like it has a Leave it to Beaver feel, maybe it did. If we went downtown to buy sneezing powder at the arcade, we took a bus.
Fast forward to California, years later. Two spouses working. The child needs, we think, day care. The high cost of housing and other expenses makes us believe this. So there is an apparent financial motivation to start schlepping the child to and from preschool. The added scheduling begins. “Dates” start to emerge on the calendar. We ended up at a Montessori school, where the playground is called a “structure” and where activities like drawing, music and rest are penciled in precisely. Or you can have a half day or a full day. So now we have dates for preschool, and those days are subdivided. You might have to “Pick Up Amanda” and take her, too. Many parents feel guilty that they go to an office instead of bonding with their kid(s), and that feeds the overcompensation of scheduling.
Add to this how neighborhoods are constructed. Urban schools have fallen victim to all kinds of decay, so suburban flight creates neighborhoods that are car dependent. The suburbs sour, and further
out people move. Everything new is better, right?
The houses (often looking like fire stations) offer garages on the front, not porches, and people enter and leave without being seen. Privacy fences on the back, nice for some activities such as cookouts, nevertheless add to the isolation. School bus service can be spotty, so the kids are chaperoned in a car to school and picked up later.
The parents motor around and believe, many of them, anyway, that creating all these ‘”activities” benefits the kids. They worry about safety, rightly or wrongly, and controlled playing thrives.
For myself, I am lucky in the year 2009 that we do not need two full-time incomes, and I try to avoid some of the pitfalls mentioned above the best I can. I do not take credit for my current fortune but am thankful.
Milkcrate,
My 12 YO niece lives approximately in the 70’s way you describe, but not due to a lack of parental oversight so much as she has matured to a point and earned the privilege of (slightly) less oversight. Its mostly the younger ones getting the extra attention of preschool, scheduled activities and chauffered playdates. I confess to raising my own DD in this fashion, but I live in an area where I am fortunate if I can go three blocks without passing the workplace or residence of someone on the sex offender list.
Insiders sell like there’s no tomorrow
Corporate officers and directors were buying stock when the market hit bottom. What does it say that they’re selling now?
September 10, 2009: 4:24 PM ET
NEW YORK (Fortune) — Can hundreds of stock-selling insiders be wrong?
The stock market has mounted an historic rally since it hit a low in March. The S&P 500 is up 55%, as U.S. job losses have slowed and credit markets have stabilized.
But against that improving backdrop, one indicator has turned distinctly bearish: Corporate officers and directors have been selling shares at a pace last seen just before the onset of the subprime malaise two years ago.
While a wave of insider selling doesn’t necessarily foretell a stock market downturn, it suggests that those with the first read on business trends don’t believe current stock prices are justified by economic fundamentals.
“It’s not a very complicated story,” said Charles Biderman, who runs market research firm Trim Tabs. “Insiders know better than you and me. If prices are too high, they sell.”
Biderman, who says there were $31 worth of insider stock sales in August for every $1 of insider buys, isn’t the only one who has taken note. Ben Silverman, director of research at the InsiderScore.com web site that tracks trading action, said insiders are selling at their most aggressive clip since the summer of 2007.
Silverman said the “orgy of selling” is noteworthy because corporate insiders were aggressive buyers of the market’s spring dip. The S&P 500 dropped as low as 666 in early March before the recent rally took it back above 1,000.
“That was a great call,” Silverman said. “They were buying when prices were low, so it makes sense to look at what they’re doing now that prices are higher.”
Howdy all. I hope to get back to reading the HBB soon when my science projects are done.
Didn’t see this posted but thought this might rile ya up:
Insiders sell like there’s no tomorrow
“…But against that improving backdrop, one indicator has turned distinctly bearish: Corporate officers and directors have been selling shares at a pace last seen just before the onset of the subprime malaise two years ago.”
money DOT cnn DOT com/2009/09/10/news/economy/insider.sales/index.htm?postversion=2009091016
FWIW - if we’ve had a big recent run up, I think it’s wrong to necessarily associate big insider selling as being bearish. It’s natural after a big run up, because (duh) now stock options aren’t underwater anymore.
I used to get options from the company I worked for, and I often sold after a run up, regardless of whether I expected the stock to continue up or not.
I wasn’t a big insider selling millions of $$ worth of course, but I think the principle applies nonentheless.
That’s not to say that it’s not a good time to be bearish. I just think it’s ambiguous, at least w/regards to the selling volume.
Just imagine how much ‘liquidity’ the PPT must be pumping into the stock market about now to offset all that insider selling!
That story makes absolutely no sense whatever. How could the stock market go steadily up if the insiders are cashing out in droves?
“Corporate officers and directors were buying stock when the market hit bottom. What does it say that they’re selling now?
NEW YORK (Fortune) — Can hundreds of stock-selling insiders be wrong?”
It reminds me of an old men’s room wall saying: “Eat s__t — 10 trillion flies can’t be wrong.”
From today’s New York Times online:
“Harvard’s endowment tumbled 27.3 percent in its latest fiscal year, largely because of problems with its private equity and hedge fund portfolios, lopping off $10 billion and shrinking its portfolio to $26 billion.”
Surprise, surprise. The best & the brightest.
Cry me a river.
Harvard is unequaled at graduating business people with the ethics of Snidely Whiplash, people who create complex financial instruments that the rest of us can’t understand, although we understand all we need to know about them - they helped fuel the collapse of the economy we’re trying to muddle out of. p.s. Robert Reich: why do we have to be subjected to your “advice” in the media every week? You have the wisdom advice today, but yesterdays you had the wrong wisdom - please go cuddle-up with your windfalls from corporate board appointments, your teaching salary, your book deals, and your big fat nest egg and stop harming the American people.
Think how much good around the world Harvard could have done by giving away $10 billion dollars last year and have exactly the same amount of money they have today.
http://tinyurl.com/p4a2ht
Housing prices have another 25% to fall according to Meredith Whitney……
Whatcha got to say now lying realtors?
Looking on the bright side, it is 25% of a lower base. And if this comes to pass, investors will lose 25% of whatever amount of principle they put in (regardless of the lower base).
FYI, your link brought up this story: “Prescription for Health Care Reform”
Oopsy…. Here’s the correct link.
http://tinyurl.com/r8mlct
Only 25 percent? Dang. I would have said 30%-35% in my neck of the woods (where prices are a mere 11% off peak).
All real estate is local
She mentioned that banks never factored in unemployment being at 10% when they made those loans. Interesting comment, considering the number of NINJA loans made. The banks didn’t seem to care at all if a person had a job or not, so why would unemployment matter?
I can’t disagree with a single point she raises, but I am not sure she has adequately factored in the gubmint’s plans to prop up home prices on a permanently high plateau. For instance, is she paying attention to the extraordinary interventions by the Fed / Treasury / Working Group on Financial Assets (snapping up MBS, trying to sell toxic loans to China, mortgage interest rate buy downs, etc)?
http://tinyurl.com/qgkkpc
“(South African Runner) Semenya a hermaphrodite”
Sydney’s Daily Telegraph says a source close to the testing process has confirmed that Semenya has three times the level of testosterone usually found in a woman, and internal testes instead of ovaries.
Wow.
Sometimes I think I have problems—like the other day I couldn’t find my favorite oven mitt and I burned my pinky, and other terrible things like that— and at such times I become morose and pouty.
But this could give me some perspective, do ya think?
Your right Olympiagal…That poor girl, and she didn’t even know it. And she spent years trying to be great at something and she was, but now her world is crushed on so many levels. This is very sad….
There’s another story saying the runner is acutally female.
Stop it, you’re going to get ATE-UP all excited.
Health care debate
This article had a nice summary of how health care in other countries works.
prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=12683
prospect.org?
lets see who these guys are.. home page.. “about TAP” tab..
About The American Prospect
Our Mission
At the dawn of a new progressive era and a time of economic transformation for the United States and the world, The American Prospect will strengthen the capacity of activists, engaged citizens, and public officials to pursue new policies and new possibilities for social justice.
The Prospect was founded in 1990 by Robert Kuttner, Robert Reich, and Paul Starr as an authoritative magazine of liberal ideas, committed to a just society, an enriched democracy, and effective liberal politics…
ok.. i think i get it..
The blog is from a guy at the washington post, but regardless of your thoughts on supporting a public system or not the article does a good job at explaining how the other systems work. ie Germany is not a socialized system but is highly regulated. It also unlike Sarah Palin’s post in the WSJ today provides supporting evidence. Rather than bashing the article source why not refute some of the claims made, who knows maybe we’ll learn something.
Washington Post, NY Times, CNN, NBC, ABC- just some branches of Democratic party.
ABC - Always Barack Channel
NBC - National Barack Channel
CBS - Cool Barack Station
Oh please,
ABC = Disney
NBC = GE
CBS = CBS Corporation
Fox = Rupert Murdoch
They are all corporations looking out for the bottom line
And if you really thing the Washington Post is liberal, you haven’t been reading that newspaper. During Bush years, they backed his Iraq war tenure. They still back the neo conservatives.
And if you really thing the Washington Post is liberal, you haven’t been reading that newspaper. During Bush years, they backed his Iraq war tenure. They still back the neo conservatives.
Sorry, but I live near DC and used to get that rag daily and read it cover to cover. You’re very wrong.
I finally just couldn’t take their obvious fawning over Obama and had to cancel. They practically had halos around his head in every picture, and figuratively in every article. And they were generally *very* critical of Bush.
And FWIW - I actually consider backing of the Iraq war to be more a liberal than conservative thing. I’m in a small minority though. I view overseas wars as generally a tool of the PTB to gain ever-increasing government power, which is what I equate to liberalism.
Say what you want about his politics, but Barack has charisma, and charisma sells air time.
Please don’t confuse the issue with facts….
Sorry, I should have addressed my post….
Measton,
Please don’t confuse the issue with facts…
Hey Joey,
I don’t think some of the GOP leaders “get” your point. The best I can say is that they do not “walk the walk”.
Please see:
“GOPers Decrying “Socialized Medicine” Go To Govt. Hospital For Surgeries”
Link: http://tinyurl.com/lkl7ou
And that part about “pursuing new policies and new possibilities for social justice.” sticks in my craw too…
What is so big deal about going to public school/hospital even though you believe in more private options? You go whatever is most convenient to you?
Is it like Obama sending his kids to private school (even when he was a mere state senator) while opposing vouchers for the inner city kids?
Blackwater,
It is not a big deal unless it IS a big deal. And in this situation the GOPers decrying socialized medicine all chose government run hospitals to perform “BIG DEAL” surgeries.
Here are the procedures these Republicans, (vociferously opposed to a government plan) chose government run hospitals to perform.
1. Coronary artery bypass surgery,Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.)
2. Potentially lethal melanoma removal, John McCain (R-AZ)
3. Hip replacement surgery, Senator Kit Bond (R-Mo.),
4. Implanting a pacemaker, Senator George Voinovich, (R-Ohio),
5 Kidney removal, and Prostate cancer, Rep. Roy Blunt, (R-Mo.)
With all due respect, I don’t think “convenience” was a big factor of consideration when the above hypocrites chose government hospitals to perform such serious procedures. These are millionaires who “purchase convenience” on a regular basis.
Obviously these hypocrites thought they would receive great treatment at these government facilities. I also don’t think the seriousness of the above procedures equates with sending one’s child to private school.
Here’s something about our friend Joe Wilson:
“Joe Wilson’s Dirty Health-Care Secret”
Cut the man some slack. He’s passionate! I know this because he told me, in the sole message that blazes across his campaign Web site: JOE WILSON IS PASSIONATE ABOUT STOPPING GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE!
Except that he’s not─at least not when it comes to his, and his family’s, government-run health care. As a retired Army National Guard colonel, Wilson gets a lot of benefits (one of which, apparently, was not a full appreciation of the customs, traditions, and courtesies that mandate respect for one’s commander in chief). And with four sons in the armed services, the entire Wilson brood has enjoyed multiple generations of free military medical coverage, known as TRICARE.
Yes, it’s true. As politicos and town-hall criers debate the finer points of the public option, employer mandates, coverage for undocumented immigrants, and who’s more Hitler-like, they seem to miss a larger point: the United States has single-payer health care. It covers 9.5 million active-duty servicemen and women, military retirees, and their dependents─including almost a 10th of all Californians and Floridians, and nearly a quarter of a million residents of Wilson’s home state.
Military beneficiaries like Wilson─who, as a retiree, is eligible for lifetime coverage─never have to worry about an eye exam, a CT scan, a prolonged labor, or an open-heart surgery. They have access not only to the military’s 133,500 uniformed health professionals, but cooperating private doctors as well─whose fees are paid by the Department of Defense. It’s high-quality care, too: surveys from 2007 and 2008 list TRICARE among “the best health insurer(s) in the nation” by customer satisfaction. Yet Wilson insists government-run health care is a problem.
To be fair, Wilson has been consistent in his policymaking if not his personal life: according to his last congressional opponent, Wilson voted 11 times against health care for veterans in eight years, even as he voted “aye” for the Iraq War (during the debate on the war vote, he even called one Democrat “viscerally anti-American”─several times). He voted to cut veterans’ benefits─not his own─to make room for President George W. Bush’s tax cuts. He repeatedly voted for budgets that slashed funding to the Veterans Administration and TRICARE. And perhaps most bizarrely, he refused─repeatedly─to approve Democratic-led initiatives that would have extended TRICARE coverage to all reservists and National Guard members, even though a disproportionate number of them have served multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan─and many lost access to their civilian work benefits when they did so.
There’s one other notable exception to Wilson’s tough-on-government record: In July, when the health-insurance debate just started heating up, he offered an amendment that would exempt TRICARE from any system of employer mandates in a health-care bill. It’s not clear whether this is necessary, since most such bills in Congress keep government benefits exempt from the rules as a matter of course. But Wilson took the opportunity to make his stand.
“As a 31-year Army Guard and Reserve veteran, I know the importance of TRICARE,” he said in a press release. “The number of individuals who choose to enroll in TRICARE continues to rise because TRICARE is a low cost, comprehensive health plan that is portable and available in some form world-wide.” He went on to call TRICARE “world class health care,” concluding on a personal note. “I am grateful to have four sons now serving in the military, and I know that their families appreciate the availability of TRICARE,” he said.
What does that mean? Nothing─except that Joe Wilson was against government-run health care before he was for it. And now he’s against it again. Just not when it comes to his own flesh and blood.
Adam Weinstein, an Iraq veteran, is a freelance journalist. He is uninsured.
Here is some tinfoil hat discussion from Chuck Butler’s EverBank news letter, which unfortunately, does not strike me as implausible:
Review & Focus
September 1, 2009
…
The Fed has always had a T-bill purchase policy; that’s how they would add or take away liquidity in the markets. I have a fundamental problem with that, too, but that’s for another discussion. For now, I want to discuss their policy of buying longer-term bonds — what is often described as Quantitiative Easing. The numbers begin to get pretty wacked, folks, but stay with me here… $300 billion of Treasuries, $200 billion of agency debt, and $1.2 trillion of mortgage-backed securities, all between March and September of this year.
The Fed doesn’t tell us from whom they bought their Treasuries; they just seem to show up on their inventory of bonds. But we have to assume they buy their Treasuries from the Primary Dealers. The reason I say so is simple: in August, there was an auction of 7-yr Treasury Notes. It was reported as “all bought” with the Primary Dealers picking up $10 bn of the issue. That’s quite a large piece to have to chode down for the PDs, but had they not stepped in to cover the auction, it would have been a “failed auction” which would have sent out warning signals to the marketst that the U.S. could no longer financie its deficit spending!
A couple of days later…47% of that $10bn worth of 7-yr Treasuries showed up on the Fed’s books. They had bought them from the PDs in an apparent back room deal!
This is shady, under-the-table stuff, folks, and tells me the Gov’t knows things are worse than they are leading us to believe, and are directing the Federal Reserve, which is supposedly independent!
…
LOL - I have that writeup sitting in front of me as we speak (being an Everbank customer). I hadn’t read it yet but was going to in about 5 minutes.
Scary dang stuff - and not tin foil hat at all IMO. Anyone who’s looked even skin deep knows the deep ties between the Fed and the Treasury, and how such a move is not implausible at all.
With the triple whammy of:
- The raising of 2010’s deficit projections by $200B+
- China’s moves away from US treasuries
- The Fed’s $300B purchase running out in a few months
seems to me things are going to really interesting in about 3-4 months.
“…deep ties between the Fed and the Treasury…”
The situation makes BB’s defense against a Congressional audit (”The Fed’s independence will be compromised”) quite a joke. Never mind that until recently, both the Fed Chair and the Treasury Secretary played for the same team…Club Fed.
“…seems to me things are going to really interesting in about 3-4 months.”
My EverBank CD is moving the right direction these days…
FWIW - I haven’t been too happy with Everbank, for various reasons. I *love* the foreign currency options, but the bank seems like it’s run by high school kids or something. The website and logistics are *horrible* - e.g. they don’t even give historical statements for the Access accounts. Also I’m currently trying to resolve what I think is a website problem, where the transaction that I’m sure I did - from one account to another - ended up going between the wrong two accounts. In general the logistics of moving money around are not really self-evident, and they take a *long* time - like 3-5 business days at least.
Also Chuck - while giving good insight - is quite hokey in his newsletters - IMO unprofessionally so. He definitely doesn’t act like a bank VP, that’s for sure. While I like his candor, to be honest it makes me… nervous.
Along those lines - ever try Forex? I’m thinking about it. They have a “practice account” service that seems neat.
“…it makes me… nervous.”
He sells FOREX CDs. Apparently making people nervous increases their appetite for gold and FOREX, so his newsletter is having its desired effect on you.
Just went to my son’s “back to school night.” His teacher had the kids in his class watch Obama’s speech for school children, then write about it. Look what my son wrote:
“I think President Barack Obama wants us to stay in school so we can get a good education and a good job so we can help the economy and make the earth and U.S. a better place.”
The RepubliTards are right! My child has been brainwashed. Help!!!
I know what you mean. Another 90 degree September night in Mesa, Arizona, and I’m thinking, “Wouldn’t a big tall flask of chilled boron trifluoride diethyl etherate go great right now.”
Dumb question of the day:
Has the gubmint always been this deeply into manipulating asset prices, or am I just paying more attention than I used to when I was young and naive?
There has truly never been a better time than to be a manager of Megabank, Inc with govt guaranteed bonus pay!
* THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
* SEPTEMBER 11, 2009
Recession Takes Toll on Living Standards
Earnings Declined Across Incomes and Races in 2008, According to New Report; More Reach for Government Safety Net
By CONOR DOUGHERTY
The recession has slashed families’ earnings, increased poverty and left more people without health insurance, according to the Census Bureau’s annual snapshot of living standards. The report Thursday offered sharp evidence of how much the falling economy has touched Americans across incomes and races.
Median household income, adjusted for inflation, fell 3.6% last year to $50,303, the steepest year-over-year drop in forty years. The poverty rate, at 13.2%, was the highest since 1997. About 700,000 more people didn’t have health insurance in 2008 than the year before, though the share of the population without coverage was about the same.
“There’s a lot of pain for the average family,” said Bruce Meyer, an economist at the University of Chicago. “It’s pretty striking how fast and how far the incomes of the typical family have fallen. The decline is bigger than anything we’ve seen in the past, and things are almost certainly going to get worse.”
…
The Goat Who Took on the Fed
7/31/2009
WSJ’s Andy Jordan spends time in the Berkshires to see how locals make the case for “slow money” with their own local currency, “The Berkshare”.
Just posted a WSJ video on “Berkshares” = Berkshire money. Why not create your own local currency, instead of relying on helicopter drops of dollars?
I fail to see the magic in local currencies, unless it is the appearance of tax exempt trade between neighbors. If that is what it is about, I like it, and wish we had some Bernardo Shares available to trade.
Not to worry, folks — the stock market always goes up.
Sept. 10, 2009, 8:51 p.m. EDT
Back from beach, stock pickers see a cooler rise into 2010
Strategists like cyclical stocks, but split on health-care and consumer sectors
By Laura Mandaro, MarketWatch
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — Stock strategists, who left for summer vacations musing over the market’s double-digit rebound, have returned with buffed-up forecasts that project an extended — though cooler — run for stocks.
In their seasonal airing out of forecasts, investment strategists have spent the last few weeks tweaking projections for this year and taking a stab at next year’s.
Most expect the S&P 500 /quotes/comstock/21z!i1:in\x (SPX 1,044, +10.77, +1.04%) to keep rising, with several anticipating the benchmark will end the year around 1,050 — less than a 1% rise from current levels.
The index of large-capitalization U.S. stocks has more to go in 2010, strategists say, but will also rise at a far slower pace than it marked this year.
“This year was the turnaround year. Next year is the show-me period. Show-me periods are much more difficult than recovery periods,” said Brian Belski, chief investment strategist at Oppenheimer & Co.
…
Ben told us to ‘behave’ cause lots of newbies were coming in, but he didn’t say from where. One of our newest is an avid participant of the dru dge mis report. All these hateful types are from there.
Desert,
Awww gawd. Gotta train another crop…
But what the hey, it’s our civic duty, right? So bring ‘em on.
ah packman, what diffence doss the characterization make? one and the same, not a true eisenhower nor truman amongst them, just those subject to contributions, with rare exceptions on each side