Bits Bucket For September 20, 2009
Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum.
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum.
As far back as I can remember, my father told me a person should only put their house in hock for an extreme emergency, and only after all other avenues had been exhausted.In today’s world it does not factor in to peoples judgment that living in perpetual debt is not a good thing. Of course the gubmint as a role model has set a very poor example.
Homeowners outraged over cancellation of their home equity lines
Sunday, September 20, 2009
San Jose Mercury News
Jeff, left, and Jenifer Schulken, of Cupertino, California, stand in their newly remodeled kitchen, September 3, 2009. The Schulkens’ home equity credit loan was frozen earlier this year, even though they continued to make their payments and their income had not changed. They are part of a class action suit against their lender, Chase, formerly Washington Mutual.
SAN JOSE, Calif. — A growing number of homeowners around the country are finding themselves unable to borrow against the equity in their home, as beleaguered banks take away a financial safety net many homeowners had counted on. And now some of those homeowners are fighting back.
Cupertino, Calif., homeowners Jeff and Jenifer Schulken filed suit this summer against JPMorgan Chase, charging that the bank unfairly terminated their home equity line of credit even though the couple provided documents showing that they could repay the money.
“They weren’t even interested in verifying whether I could pay it back. They just want these things off the books,” Jeff Schulken said, adding he had $160,000 available on his credit line in March when he got a letter from Chase asking for tax documents. He sent them immediately, and was told when he called the bank that the inquiry was only a formality and his equity line was not in jeopardy.
“The next morning, I got online and we had zero available credit,” he said.
The Schulkens got a $250,000 line of credit against their three-bedroom Cupertino house in 2005, used about $123,000 to remodel their home and had paid down the balance to about $90,000 by the time they got the letter from Chase, Jeff Schulken said. Schulken said every month he pays extra on his mortgage and more than the minimum due on the equity line of credit, carries no credit card or other debt, and his income from the family business — a day care run from his home of 21 years — has not faltered during the recession. Having the remaining $160,000 on his line of credit yanked away irked him.
The bank giveth and the bank taketh away.
If the numbers are indeed as good as they look, it looks like Chase is the loser here. Time for Mr Daddy Day Care (which admittedly is a really really tough job) to find another bank, or better still a local credit union.
Chase isn’t the loser. They still have $90K outstanding debt with this couple. The fact that his business has not taken a hit YET does not mean they won’t take a hit later. There is some risk to the outstanding loan whether he has defaulted or not, whether his income has fallen yet or not. By lowering his line of credit to the outstanding ballance, they have limited their risk to the $90K already on their books. It can’t go up to $250K.
The banks have way too many loans outstanding to do a careful risk analysis on everyone. Blunt rules are easier to implement and they don’t require you to hire and train a bunch of new workers.
Not necessarily profit maximizing, but their business and their choice.
I would guess day care would be a loser in the future: there’s a great probability that one of a two-income couple (the people who use day care) will get the sack and become a stay-at-home spouse.
Just cuz the bank gives you the loan don’t mean it’s “your” money. It’s the bank’s money, or hopefully will be when dummies pay it back. They should be glad that their $ 123K kitchen was completed before the bank yanked the credit line. I’ll bet that kitchen is something. BTW, that’s what is left on the mortgage balance for our WHOLE house. (The one that we’re currently living in. Other house is paid off - rental ). But, we don’t have a newly remodeled kitchen, either. The old one works fine the way it is, and looks nice, too. No granite or fossil or bamboo floors. Sigh. NOT.
Like the old saying.
Bank gave him an umbrella when the sun was shining. Now it’s raining and the Bank wants the umbrella back.
+1 FB
I wonder exactly what’s in the contract language for the HELOC. Surely the bank has some sort of escape clause buried in it.
the gubmint as a role model
Is this the classic non-sequitur? Or just an obscure piece of jactitation? (Hopefully arousing Olygal from her hangover.)
Sup with this old fool, didn’t he know about the gubmints save the homeowners campaign/program.
Elderly Bank Bandit: I Robbed to Pay Off My Mortgage
Man being held on $50,000 bail
Sep 19, 2009
“I had to get us out of this,” the elderly man said Friday from the other side of the glass at San Diego central jail. “I’ve never done a bad thing in my life. But when you get desperate, I guess you throw all that sh– out the window.”
Listening to how Michael Casey Wilson of Santee tells it, a 17 percent mortgage, the threat of homelessness and a terminal health condition will turn a man to crime.
Wilson, 69, is accused of walking into the Bank of America branch in the 4100 block of El Cajon Boulevard in City Heights and handing a bank manager a demand note, saying he had a bomb. Prosecutors said he made off with $107,000 before he was caught lying on a front porch near the bank.
“I wrote them an apology. I am so sorry,” he said referring to the employees who rushed out of the bank. “It’s not my purpose in life to scare people.”
“If it would’ve worked the way I wanted it to, it would’ve just been he and I. But he told everybody. He shouldn’t have done that,” Wilson said.
On Thursday he pleaded not guilty to three counts of robbery and one count of falsely reporting a bomb to a business. In an interview Friday, Wilson was very open about the plan he had hatched to save his home.
“I was hoping to get $50,000 to pay off my mortgage,” he said. “Just to get the money and get the hell out of there.”
WTF is a 69 year old man doing with a mortgage….17% or not.
Oh, all the cool geezers have one.
Viagra: $100 a month
Brand new Cadillac: $489 a month
HELOC: $275 a month
Dying in year 12 of a 40 year mortgage and giving a big F.U. to the bank…priceless.
Eddie- LOL ..To much …Well At least he will have room and board in jail . Someone posted a thread many months ago
about the elderly ,in increasing numbers , in a Asian Country ,were resorting to crime because of the economy .
I bet this guys defense will be that the Bank drove him into it by their usury and refusal to loan mod . But really ,should a bank be allowed to set someone up for a big fall ? Good question.
As mentioned before, my wife and I live in a community that’s about 95% seniors. Having found our county’s property records web site, I have looked at a number of addresses and I would say that around 75% of my fellow retirees have mortgages. Amazing.
When I do some basic assumptions and calculations to estimate their PITI, the only thing I can assume is that they must have a whole lot more monthly income from pensions than we do.
And health care after a fashion…..
Can’t discriminate anymore. Besides, the bank can just take the house back when the geezer croaks. Just cuts into the estate, or wipes it out, whatever.
The poor heirs! Wah.
Some people do truly have some princely pensions. Amazing. I’ve had to save up for my retirement. No pension. I have a takehome check that would leave most people on the housing bubble blog gasping for breath while lying on the floor laughing their brains out because it’s so low, but much of my earnings go straight into my lovely 403b university funds, with a 10% match. I save far more than my minimum. The nice thing about doing this is that should I ever need to make an expensive car payment, or pay off a loan for my newly-remodeled granite-countered kitchen, then I’ve just got to adjust my savings rate downward and not feel any pain. That’s not going to happen, however.
Yup! Even at age 50 I would not take out a 30 year mortgage. I’m going to pay for my house with cash. Three more years of price drops coming up in Arizona, Nevada, and California.
Yesterday I posted about friend the union electrician / stage hand and wife, luckily selling their condo last fall only to rush out and buy a big house in a gentrifying hood.
Forget to mention this guy is 50 years old.
My sister and her husband also, building a lake home after selling their (could have been) paid-off home recently. They’re turning 55 in a month. However, they do have the cash to do it, and he’s going to finish much of the mega-mansion himself. Still not what I’d be doing with my money at that age, but they want to get on the lake to sail and motorboat, and they’re doing it while they still can. They’re designing the home to be lived in for the next 25 years, so that they can just drive into the garage and walk straight into the house, with all of their living space on the first floor.
“the bank can just take the house”
Question? What if they got life insurance/term to cover the entire mortgage, should one of the pair depart sooner?
I have to say, many retirees have a major source of pension incomes, and other retirees don’t have a pot to piss in- through life events.
Being a real bankster means never having to say you’re sorry.
“On Thursday he pleaded not guilty to three counts of robbery and one count of falsely reporting a bomb to a business. In an interview Friday, Wilson was very open about the plan he had hatched to save his home.”
LOL, what?! Not guilty, as he sings like a bird? Pipe down, old man, you’re digging your grave!
Maybe he plans to plead insanity.
If he gets a fellow FB on the jury, he might walk.
“Wilson, 69, is accused of walking into the Bank of America branch in the 4100 block of El Cajon Boulevard in City Heights and handing a bank manager a demand note, saying he had a bomb.”
I hope the banker crapped his pants. After all, we’re talking about a banker.
It was a very poorly planned robbery, and he still got away with $107,000?! Sounds like if he had a getaway car (or bike) he would have made it. (I think I’m in the wrong line of business…)
Yeesh… Doesn’t he know the real way to make money is to write a 3-page list of demands to Congress for almost a trillion dollars and dictorial powers and threaten martial law if you don’t get your way? Hey, it worked for Paulson!
Peter Schiff is aiming at a run for the U.S. Senate from Connecticut. He has already raised more than a million dollars for his campaign, according to his web site. The Washington establishment will fight his candidacy tooth and nail because of his persistent complaints about federal government interference with the free market system and the economic correction.
” The pain of allowing Lehman Brothers to fail will be dwarfed by the agony of bailing out the rest of Wall Street, which is now a foregone conclusion,” writes Schiff. “Just because the Lehman bankruptcy created unpleasant consequences does not mean it was a mistake. On the contrary, sometimes doing the right thing hurts – especially if it is done to avoid even greater pain down the road. It just seems that our representatives are incapable of asking for short-term sacrifice. There is no price they are not willing to force the rest of us to pay to assure their own reelection.”
Schiff believes if current policies continue, the America we know – for which our forebears risked so much – will cease to exist. Lehman Bros. Revisited
(I have never contributed a dime to a Connecticut political race in the past, but we’ll make a considerable exception in Schiff’s race. He is glib, smart, and devoted to the idea that the Constitution means something and the federal government ought to abide by it. The country desperately needs more Solons with this point of view.)
“The country desperately needs more Solons with this point of view.”
Amen, brothah! Solon understood the weakness of democracy as opposed to a republic. However, it would seem that our so-called representatives have long forgotten who it is they represent, and have themselves become the mob.
They now very well who they represent–Big Money. I don’t see the mob getting jack.
Amen, alpha!
Schiff os becoming the 2010 version of Ron Paul. He’ll raise a bajillion dollars online from a small but devoted base, and get 6% of the vote in the primary. I say save your money.
Thanks for the cynicism, it curdled my coffee.
Anyway, I call BS. Never underestimate what a small, but devoted and motivated group of people can accomplish. Down through the ages, such groups have made history.
BTW, I think someone said much the same thing you said to the Founding Fathers.
In essence, Schiff said on the air the other day that he wanted to go educate the other Senators, if he gets to office . He has been talking a lot about what the real cure for the economy is (which I agree with ) . The problem is that the business channel was trying to tread him somewhat like a screw-ball ,and the commentator
even laughed at the end and made one of those discounting remarks they make at the end when they want the public to discard the message . The media use to discount Ron Paul all the time also and the other Senators would roll their eyes when he would speak . These messengers are gaining some clout in this aftermath of “the Great Housing Bubble “,that crashed .
“the commentator even laughed at the end and made one of those discounting remarks they make at the end when they want the public to discard the message . The media use to discount Ron Paul all the time also and the other Senators would roll their eyes when he would speak .”
And they do this frequently. I remember the end of a presidential debate I was watching on FOX and the commentators were laughing at, scoffing and dismissing Ron Paul’s ideas at the same moment the ticker was saying 42% of viewers thought RP had performed best in the debate. The closest other candidate scored about a 23%. It was a surreal and telling moment.
I saw CNBC and FOX treat Schiff the same way many times too.
I remember that too. The commentators were trying to dismiss the percentages, saying that the “online crowd” (in a dismissive way, as if they were geeks or weirdos or something) were responsible for these numbers.
Of course, had the numbers been in favor of their chosen candidate they would have said no such thing. Then it would have been the “voice of the people”.
A similar thing happened when the initial 787b stimulus package was voted down in Congress and the Dow went down 700+ points. It was like a funeral on CNBC and some dumb bitch there said that Congress has “let down the American people”. She conveniently forgot that the reason for the rejection was the thousands of emails and letters received by Congress from the public asking them to vote AGAINST the bailout. I felt so happy and relieved that finally our reps had done the right thing; and was extremely hopeful that we had restored some sanity to the government. A mere week or so later it all came crashing down again as those disgusting bastards caved in to Wall St money and handed the country over to the banks permanently.
“42% of viewers thought RP had performed best in the debate.”
Piffle. The Paul people were very disciplined and prompted to take part in online polls. They used online alerts..you couldn’t blog his name without RP minders showing up within the hour to see what was said and rebut it.
It did NOT translate into votes from ordinary people.
LIAR!! Everyone knows Ron Paul always out debated everyone. To say otherwise is to show your ignorance and your slavish allegiance to the corrupt two-party system.
The Founding Fathers had their opponents’ long supply lines as an advantage. Also, they used guns. You planning the violent overthrow of the US government?
“You planning the violent overthrow of the US government?”
Perish the thought! Who needs guns when fungus is already doing the job?
You involved in the “characterize Ron Paul supporters as terrorists movement”?
Not a bit of it. I’m just questioning the validity of your metaphor. You implied that Peter Schiff could change the world the way the Founding Fathers because the FF’s had great ideas and so does Schiff. But the FF’s didn’t win at a parlimentary debate. They started a violent revolution. How is Schiff going to get the same results without resorting to the same means?
“I’m just questioning the validity of your metaphor”
Sigh. First of all, I was using a simile, not a metaphor. Secondly, I was talking about small groups of determined people. Of which the Founding Fathers were just one group in history. If you like, I can add groups like the rag-tag farmers from Italy who journeyed to Greece to seek advice and founded Rome. Non-violent, as I recall, although it did get violent later.
As to the Founding Fathers, they didn’t “start” a violent revolution. They first separated from England by written resolution. The violence started when England objected and drew first blood.
How is Schiff going to get the same results without resorting to the same means
We are so lucky. We are not fighting a “foreign” enemy or even a mother country here. This is our country and the systems are in place to make change.
All we’d have to do to make change is vote all incumbents out of office ONCE and at the same time, change our voter registrations from Dems/Repubs to independents and enact serious campaign finance reform.
All of which are very hard to do but not as hard as the winter of 1777-78 spent at Valley Forge.
Sigh. First of all, I was using a simile, not a metaphor.
(Game off)
I respectfully suggest it was neither, but indirect inference via analogy. The reader is making the cognitive leap here.
Have fun out there, kids!
(Game on)
If you eliminated all earmarks from bills and assigned senators and reps to their committees, subcommittees and chairmanships randomly, and got rid of the legislative affairs offices in the agencies of the executive branch so there was no way for a constituent problem sent to a rep or senator to be give special treatment, and finally instated public (and equal) funding of all elections, then you *might* be able to vote them all out and start fresh. I don’t know if you would get a better group and I don’t know if they would do all that much different than the last group, but you could try.
In the Senate, there is only one thing that Schiff could really do. He could put together a 41 person coalition to oppose a lot of stuff he hated and prevent anything from being done. It might not be a bad thing to do. It certainly would be interesting, but it isn’t changing DC. That is the way DC has worked for ages….
“He could put together a 41 person coalition to oppose a lot of stuff he hated and prevent anything from being done.”
Hey that’s the GOP’s job! Remember, the Party of No?
I didn’t think it was a bad idea either.
The Founding Fathers were dependent upon the French military. You really want to go there?
“The Founding Fathers were dependent upon the French military. You really want to go there?”
Without the anger of the colonial settlers there is no revolution. No doubt there was aid given by France. BTW, did you know that the Statue of Liberty wasn’t a gift from the french government. It was a gift from french freemasons.
The thing that perpetuates this political duopoly is “voting for the lesser evil”. Most everybody complains about DC yet when it’s time to cast your ballot they think “their guy/gal” is ok so the same ineffective lot reappears. Count me amongst the 6% who call BS.
french freemasons.
I have been a mason for almost 20 years. I was made a mason in Mons, Belgium. I have been to french and dutch lodges where we didnt speak the same language, but we still spoke in allegory..Still, I never knew that fact. Please provide a link….
BTW, off topic,
But while in afghanistan with a local lodge here, we were having a meeting of the Knights Templars. The blood stained banner of Christ was on the wall. The muslim workers wouldnt come in to the temple while the banner was up. My teachings as a KT have shown me alot about the area we are in and past wars. The history is truly amazing.
I love god and I believe in him, but I am beginning to think that religious extremism is what drives men mad. Showing off how more religious you are than the next man is what starts wars and it is long how human suffering begins in the name of religion. Sometimes I just think when we die, god is going to look at all of us and go “You idiots”……
To those that know…
“IN HOC, SIG NO”
I would say they were more dependent on the Prussian Baron von Steuben.
And oh boy, did those Hessian soldiers suffer. They were essentially sold down the river from Prussia by the Baron. Most of them never got home, from what I remember reading about it. It was very interesting, since in school they just told us about the “Hessians” and we had no idea what they were talking about, except that they were some kind of soldiers helping those other bad guys out ( the English ). A lot of kids thought that Columbus had evidently landed in Massachusetts when he “discovered” America, also. They kind of left out the Caribbean islands when they were propagandizing us about that. We did know all about those amazing Beatles, though.
There is hope for you yet, Step.
This from an escaped QueenJobie and grandniece of, well….
Yeah. Let’s just say I know the Masonic thingy.
So glad your head is starting to clear, m’dear!
PS.
You forgot the win-kays.
“Down through the ages, such groups have made history.”
If Fast Eddie’s type of thinking had held sway back around 1776, we wouldn’t have a country now.
Hey, it’s your money, send it to him if you want. I’m telling you he has less than 0 chance of winning.
It doesn’t sound like you would have supported Lincoln or Truman either.
The end of the world pundit Gerald Celente recently discussed his prediction of a third American political party - Progressive Libertarians. Normally, I would discount the possibility but I see recent events provide historic challenges to the two parties and the political structure that favors only two parties may not be able to maintain the status quo. Peter Schiff is capitalizing on this trend - People who don’t think the government should be giving cash for clunkers or houses, no Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan bailouts, no Government Motors, no Afghanistan/Iraq nation building. I’ve followed Schiff for years and haven’t heard what his platform for social issues is going to be, but I kind of doubt he’s going to be for government deciding with who and what people are allowed to do in their bedrooms….
I hope you are right. I’ve been aligned with the libertarian movement since the late 1970s. I am an extreme social liberal and economic liberal (economic freedom in the Frédéric Bastiat sense).
How can someone be a “progressive” Libertarian? Progressives want to help the less fortunate, but where do you get the money for that? You can’t tax the rich because you’re a Libertarian. You can’t print money because your first act was to abolish the Fed. You can’t be globally protectionist because that hampers free enterprise — and where will you get your oil?
Oxide - I wouldn’t want to portray myself as a spokesman for a new movement but, here would be my feelings for a start:
Safety net for the needy, not for big business.
Limited government to enforce the rules of society, not make the society.
National defense for the nation, not nation building.
Right to control your own body, choose your own mate without society telling you which race, religion or sex.
Education, not indoctrination in the schools.
You can protect the poor, the environment and our constitution without the mommy / daddy state (which both parties want because that is where they get their power).
Good points. I wouldn’t mind some law which busted up up every single business when it exceeded a certain size. But “safety net for the needy” is pretty darn big. Food stamps don’t cost too much, but what about Medicare and Social Security?
Hmm…I like where this is going and like mariner22’s concept. I tend to think of myself as a “social libertarian” whereby I’m for a base level of health and education and also see the environment as part of US infrastructure that should be protected in addition to highways and defense of the country.
Beyond that, I’m fiercely opposed to what I consider empire building and bailout measures designed to control the economy (C4C and $750b stimu-packages).
I actually think about 55-60% of voters feel the same way when you consider the approval ratings of the last 10 years.
There ya go, sleepless! That sort of describes my thinking as well.
Sleepless for Prez!
If you have to use the gun barrel to force an individual or group to do something, it certainly is not “progressive.” But I grew up thinking this is how the world is and ought to be.
Sorry about you believers in initiation of force.
“Progressives want to help the less fortunate.” What’s unsaid is “by using the gun barrel to steal from the productive and willing to give to the lazy and unwilling.” The conflict between the “will do” and the “will not.”
I am neither unproductive, nor lazy, nor unwilling, but I do appreciate the help I’ve been getting from “the government” since I’ve been disabled.
Thank you.
Sleepless,
You hit the nail on the head!
———————
Bill,
If you think the wealthy are the “productive” citizens, let’s just say we disagree. I’ve known many poor people who were far more productive than the top 1% of the wealthy.
Productivity does not necessarily equal wealth. Likewise, wealthy people are not necessarily productive.
CA Renter. Did I use the words “wealthy” or “wealth” in my post above?
I am one productive individual, not wealthy, who earned what he has. I have lazy relatives like frogs on logs waiting for flies to come by. I’m by no means religious but the worst sin is to expect the unearned.
Ben, I apologize for the length of this article, but I don’t have the computer skill to know how to transfer a hyperlink. However, I think my friends here will find this article important. The Automatic Earth archives.
Systemic failure, by design…
Debt Rattle, November 26 2008: From the Top of the Great Pyramid:
“Everyone has heard of pyramid, or Ponzi, schemes. In their simplest form they are short-lived deliberate frauds where a small number of existing members are paid from the buy-in of a larger number of newer members until the supply of newer members is exhausted, whereupon they collapse. Typically, the founders, and perhaps a few others who got in early and out before it was too late, end up making a lot of money at the expense of later entrants, who end up holding the empty bag. There are always many more losers than winners. What most do not realize, however, is that Ponzi dynamics are far more pervasive than people think. There are many human systems that ultimately rest on the buy-in of new entrants, and every one of them will ultimately meet the same fate, although it can take far longer for complex constructions than for simple pyramid frauds.
What allows a more complex pyramid to last for longer than a simple one is a supplementary source of funds to pay members, besides merely the buy-in of newer members. The more such sources there are, legitimate and otherwise, the more complex the pyramid can become and the longer it will last, as the apparent on-going success of early entrants will attract many more new ones. There’s nothing like seeing one’s friends and neighbours seemingly making a lot of easy money for a long time to eventually overcome the mental defenses of even the most skeptical.
Following the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe, there was a spate of such schemes - notably MMM in Russia, Caritas in Romania, Jugoskandic and Dafiment Bank in Serbia, TAT in Macedonia, and VEFA Holdings, Xhafferi, Populli, Gjallica and several others in Albania. They were the topic of my academic research at the time. All of these lasted for quite a long time, and some paid out spectacular returns for much of that time. For instance, the Albanian funds , or quasi-banks, began by paying out 3-5% per month over a 6 month term and were eventually paying out 10% per month (and briefly much more as an interest rate war ensued very late in the game).
They were able to do this temporarily because the income from the buy-in of new entrants was supplemented by revenue from drug smuggling, oil sanctions busting, money laundering, gun running, human trafficking and a thriving trade in car theft from across Europe. There was some revenue from legitimate business interests, but not much in a country that survived mainly on a combination of remittances and politically supported criminal activity. Ironically, Albania was the darling of the IMF at the time.
Over time, approximately 80% of the Albanian population was drawn into the pyramids, often selling their only real property in order to invest and then depending on the pyramids for all their income. When the inevitable happened, the vast majority of the population was completely dispossessed. Although many had realized that there was something too-good-to-be-true about their ‘investments’ they had succumbed to greed “in the belief that they were in the hands of properly structured criminality”, as The Guardian newspaper put it in February 1997. The population believed, erroneously, that there was an implicit guarantee from the government, which was conspicuously and intimately entwined with the activities of the various funds.
In the developed world, there are many examples of pyramid dynamics where there is no intent to defraud at all - where even the founders really don’t understand the underlying logic of their business model taken to its logical conclusion. Direct marketing, for instance, is essentially pyramid-based - depending on an ever-increasing network of sales people, each of whom receives a percentage of their income from those they can attract into the business. If these businesses can no longer grow by attracting new salespeople, then they are ultimately finished, but as they cannot grow perpetually (or eventually everyone in the country would end up making a living selling these products to each other), they are inherently self-limiting. They can last for many years thanks to legitimate business revenues, but not forever. Early entrants will always do very well, at the expense of later ones, and the last tiers will certainly lose their stake.
Large economic bubbles, typically formed in dominant economies during periods of manic optimism (see McKay’s Extraordinary Public Delusions and the Madness of Crowds), have the same underlying dynamic. Without continual buy-in from new money - new investors or more money from existing investors - they cannot grow, and when they can no longer grow, they will collapse. Although grounded initially in legitimate business activity, they morph into structures where one has to question the motives and understanding of key individuals. In some cases there may be intent to defraud, but what is far more common is a characteristic recklessness as to the risks those in control are prepared to take with other people’s money.
In their latter stages, such structures hollow out, feeding on their own internal substance as they lose the ability to attract new investment. In the terminal phase, there is the appearance of great wealth, but it is virtual, and therefore extremely ephemeral. The next step is implosion, as the virtual wealth disappears - where the claims to wealth generated through leverage that exceed the amount of underlying real wealth are extinguished en masse. Enron was a prime example, and on a much larger scale, so is the derivatives market. Bubbles, like all Ponzi structures, are inherently self-limiting and will always collapse in the end.
At the largest scale, empires are also grounded in pyramid dynamics, which is why they too have a limited lifespan. They grow by assuming control, either politically or economically, of new territories, positioning themselves to cream off surpluses from an ever-expanding geographical area in a form of involuntary buy-in. In the past political control through invasion or physical colonization was more common, but latterly globalization has enabled the development of a sophisticated system of economic control based on international debt slavery, supplemented with economic colonization for the purpose of resource extraction. Both resources and financial surpluses, in the form of perpetual interest payments, could be efficiently extracted from the periphery and accumulated at the centre, where they led to the development of an unprecedented level of socioeconomic complexity.
Such wealth conveyors in favour of the economic centre, at the expense of the hinterland, are the very heart of empire, but without continual expansion to feed rapidly developing central complexity, they eventually fail, leaving the centre unable to sustain its existing complexity level. As with economic bubbles, empires hollow out in the latter stages, consuming their own substance in a catabolic manner in order to compensate for the inability to strengthen wealth conveyors sufficiently quickly to keep pace with the expanding requirements of the centre.
As the hinterland is increasingly stripped of wealth and resources, and burdened with the increasing environmental impact of its own exploitation, an increasing fraction of it is left too impoverished to sustain a minimum level of internal order. In modern times we speak of failed states without realizing why many of these states are failing, or the impact that an increasing number of failed states will ultimately have on our own standard of living.
Wealth conveyors are breaking down, and no amount of financially squeezing the population in the central economies can compensate for the loss of that ability to accumulate wealth from virtually the whole world. The vast majority of the central population will be brutally squeezed as the elites try to hang on to their own privileged position, but this can only sustain a very small, and rapidly shrinking, fraction of the population, and at great cost.
We are living through the collapse of the final - and all-consuming - economic bubble at the end of the American empire”.
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Good post, ATE!
Yep, so far we’ve dodged the hurricane bullet here in Fla, but I remind myself we’ve still got a month and a half or so to go. It was godawful hot here yesterday and today looks to be shaping up to be much the same. Breaking a sweat as soon as I step out the door.
Thanks Palmy, I appreciate it.
Yeah, September/October 15 about there, generally, but, you still never know when up through November.
So, you sure can’t say you’re clean yet, and I know you know it.
I think you got a good shot at it though Palmy. Also, I know you will survive anyway!
Ya Bud,
ATE
Good read ATE. The build up to this current crashing Ponzi scheme
took many years and the whole Globe got in on this one .
It is really scary to think about just how much the housing bubble
was really a Ponzi scheme ,especially all the criminal elements
of it becoming socially acceptable . When did you ever think that
the government would bail out loan fraud or consider gambling loan fraud borrowers and lenders something that should be bailed out ,rather than prosecuted or penalized ?
It’s been amazing watching the crash unfold ,where contract law
took second place to kicking the can down the road .
Modeled after the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition.
• Once you have their money … never give it back.
• Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to.
• Never allow family to stand in the way of opportunity.
• A man is only worth the sum of his possessions.
• Small print leads to large risk.
• Opportunity plus instinct equals profit.
• Greed is eternal.
• Anything worth doing is worth doing for money.
• A deal is a deal … until a better one comes along.
• A contract is a contract is a contract (but only between Ferengi).
• A Ferengi without profit is no Ferengi at all.
• Satisfaction is not guaranteed.
• Never place friendship above profit.
• A wise man can hear profit in the wind.
• Nothing is more important than your health–except for your money.
• There’s nothing more dangerous than an honest businessman.
http://www.sjtrek.com/trek/rules/
I love the Ferengi Rules of Aquisition. No hiding, in your face.
Thank you wiz, and every word you said is frighteningly true. Who would have ever believed it.
Did I mention that I really, really hate hurricanes?
Bub: Yes you did and I know what you mean.
Hey ATE,
Sounds alot like Social Security, doesnt it?
Sure does Step. Is it cooling down over there? Got a bottle of malaria pills yopu can loan me.
Proud of you.
yopu = Yoko Ono.
Step, you know who Yoko Ono is?
I am goint to tell you right now. I am going to tell everone here right now.
Yoko Ono is Oly Gal.
There.
Job Done!
goint = gout.
and an anagram of yoko ono is nooooky!
ATE-your anagram is taupe!
mine’s hot lap lash!
way too much coffee!!
alph, I hope the little devil gets on-line tonight. She’ll explode.
It is our civic duty to make Oly mad once a week.
Ahh,
Yo Ko eh? Didnt she pose for Anne Geddes(sp?) with John? Naked I think..or either he was like the day before he died….
Oh yea,
This week has been back up to 100+, but before that it was cooling down nicely….
“Both resources and financial surpluses, in the form of perpetual interest payments, could be efficiently extracted from the periphery and accumulated at the centre, where they led to the development of an unprecedented level of socioeconomic complexity.
Such wealth conveyors in favour of the economic centre, at the expense of the hinterland, are the very heart of empire, but without continual expansion to feed rapidly developing central complexity, they eventually fail, leaving the centre unable to sustain its existing complexity level.”
Wall Street + DC = ‘economic centre’
California & Southwest desert states = ‘hinterlands’
end of the American empire?
I didn’t know America was already an empire..
A few weeks back I was half-joking about our future, since our consumer driven economy seemed to have run out of consumers, and about where America is headed next in it’s evolution.
I suggested we must colonize foreign countries. Mexico for starters, and move outward from there. That’s how we would continue to grow and prosper.
A true American empire would certainly startle those who think one already exists.
If that author really believes the USA has been “creaming off surpluses from an ever-expanding geographical area in a form of involuntary buy-in” he ain’t seen nothing yet.
“I didn’t know America was already an empire..”
Get a clue.
Get a dictionary.
Got one right here on the internet…
* Main Entry: em·pire
* Pronunciation: \ˈem-ˌpī(-ə)r\
* Function: noun
* Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French empire, empirie, from Latin imperium absolute authority, empire, from imperare to command — more at emperor
* Date: 14th century
1 a (1) : a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority; especially : one having an emperor as chief of state (2) : the territory of such a political unit b : something resembling a political empire; especially :an extensive territory or enterprise under single domination or control
“emperor as chief of state”
I guess we don’t have a sole emperor; how many czars has OBwan instated by now?
yeah.. now somehow fit the square peg that is the USA into the round hole your definition describes, and you’re all done.
“something resembling a political empire; especially :an extensive territory or enterprise under single domination or control”
Square peg, square hole. Done.
Emperor.. “An emperor is generally addressed as His Imperial Majesty.”
imperial - 1. related to an empire, emperor, or empress.
imperialism - 1. The policy of forcefully extending a nation’s authority by territorial gain or by the establishment of economic and political dominance over other nations.
—–
..and that’s what we need to do. We need to forcefully take and dominate foreign territory, and use the resources, labor and even the new consumers such acquired territory offers for our pleasure and profit.
What country could resist us? A few may put up a laughably weak struggle but the vast majority will simply surrender rather than face inhalation.
yes.. the American Empire. Has a nice ring to it..
inhalation… hehe..
While the idea of our inhaling foreign territory somehow fits, it’s much more poetic than the word i meant to use. “..than face “annihilation”.
—–
an extensive territory or enterprise under single domination or control”..
PB.. can you name me any country that doesn’t fit that description when speaking of it’s own territory? Are all countries empires?
Imperialism or Empire is about a country dominating foreign territory.
Let’s take Canada first. Most bang for the buck. Short supply lines. They expect it anyway.
“…can you name me any country that doesn’t fit that description…”
I’ll name three:
1. Singapore
2. Luxembourg
3. Monaco
“I didn’t know America was already an empire..”
Get a clue.
I don’t know if America is an empire or not but of the three 20th century contenders for dominant power; Nazi Germany, The USSR and The United States of America, the world is lucky that it was the USA that came out on top for awhile. And this point of view considers our failings too.
That was an interesting proposition Rio. Thank you, I am ruminating with a tiny brain. I borrowed Oly’s today, and want mine to rest!
Oly, I didn’t mean that and I am sorry. I don’t care how big your brain is, and it is probably bigger than mine x2.
However, I do care about how good your heart is, and I don’t want to hurt your feelings. Therefore, I apologize.
ATE
P.S. It’s alph’s fault anyway.
“Nazi Germany, The USSR and The United States of America”
Uncle Sam’s appearance on this list appears to offer a clue about the empire question.
What’d I do? It was like that when I got here. (empires rule!)
“Nazi Germany, The USSR and The United States of America”
Uncle Sam’s appearance on this list appears to offer a clue about the empire question.
The above statement appears to offer a clue on someone’s ability or willingness to rationally differentiate.
I suggested we must colonize foreign countries. Mexico for starters
That’s been happening for decades! Back in 1989 I had a connecting flight through Guadalajara, Mexico. At that time I was told 200,000 former Americans live there. many of them collecting social security. I just checked a website and it said only 6,000 to 7,000 Americans live there. Not sure which is more accurate. Current Guadalajara population is six million, which makes it larger than Phoenix metro, or even Houston metro.
Here’s an interesting link:
http://www.mexonline.com/amigonews/feature-guadalajara-experience.htm
To be fair, the Eastern Europeans ( especially the Albanians ) had little understanding of how capitalism worked other than what they learned in school and books. They were like babes to the slaughter to the sophisticated
charlatanscapitalists.They also understood democracy as studied in school and had little dealings with modern
crookspoliticians.I love the smell of capitulation in the morning
-In my upper-middle class community 20 miles east of downtown Smella, an interesting letter was posted on the window of the most respected real estate office in town. In a nutshell, it asked us to remember the good old days of 2005 when we could pull 100’s of K out of our houses. Also, they remember when almost all sales took place out of their office. Now, outsiders are getting a hold of listings through foreclosures and selling without understanding the “specialness” of the area and thus vastly underpricing the listings. They conclude by telling us to hang strong as a community to keep those outsiders at bay and prices up. No worries, soon the normality of high valuations will be restored because open houses are seeing much more activity now.
-That letter my friends is the smell of palpable realtor fear.
Downtown Smella? Where the heck is Smella?
Downwind of the local garbage dump I presume.
Wondering the same thing myself…
Downtown Smella would be a great name for a rapper.
alph: Wouldn’t be bad…
Here?
http://www.redbubble.com/people/taiche/t-shirts/2071726-4-einstein-the-fart-smella
Maybe Selma transposed?
LOL, Al. Thanks for this!
We are heading out to enjoy a debt-free day in the Big Apple. The weather is beautiful. The wind is calm. The sun is shining. I will have no thoughts of the destruction that Bernanke, Geithner, Fannie, Freddie, FHA and the rest of the devils have in store for us. We will celebrate the end of the recession with a whoop and a holler. I hope you can do the same.
“We will celebrate the end of the recession with a whoop and a holler.”
You seein’ “green shoots”?
i will celebrate the “end of the recession” and a debt free sunday by watching my J E T S beat up on Brady
Tom Brady or Brady Quinn?
I dislike both. Last year’s Superbowl run-up was basically the Tom Brady show, which is why Eli Manning suddenly received lots of love. And Brady Quinn of (arrogant) Notre Dame was taking $$ for TV commercials even before training camp.
What the stenographer fails to note in this story is, that the houses are in a crappy neighborhood are extremely over priced, even with a wino cellar. They are one of many examples of pure speculation that will end up as ghettos.
News - Local / Metro
Sunday, Sep. 20, 2009
Buyers, builders still can’t get loans
Shandon Square was supposed to be a showpiece of new home construction in downtown Columbia. Its half-million-dollar homes featured wine cellars, media rooms and elaborate master baths.
But more than two years after construction started, the Woodrow Street neighborhood has been hit by a one-two punch. Neither buyers nor builders can get a loan.
“The banks are not lending money. I don’t care if you’re Donald Trump,” said David Bryant, president of Metropolitan Development in Columbia, which developed Shandon Square.
An agonizing recession has crippled many Midlands builders.
Builders have trouble finding buyers for homes that sprouted up in the Midlands in recent years, including once-fast-growing Northeast Richland and Lexington counties. Even if builders sell the new homes they have built, banks won’t lend them money to build new ones.
As a result, some home builders are looking for other work, and an annual Midlands tradition - the Parade of Homes, showcasing builders’ work - has been canceled.
The event, usually held for several weeks in October, typically features an enclave of lavish homes in an upscale neighborhood. But builders couldn’t get financing to construct homes that didn’t already have a buyer in place, and buyers have been especially tough to land in the hard-hit market for high-end homes.
Instead, the group is offering a coupon and discount program for new home buyers, targeting homes that builders have not been able to sell.
“It’s no secret they need to sell some houses,” said Earl McLeod, chief executive of the Home Builders Association of Greater Columbia. “It’s been a bad year.”
McLeod said he hopes to be able to offer the parade again - when banks ease up on lending.
“We’re all in this thing together,” he said. “We’ve got to fight our way out of it.”
“The banks are not lending money. I don’t care if you’re Donald Trump,” said David Bryant, president of Metropolitan Development in Columbia, which developed Shandon Square.
Funny how specuvestors always refer to the king of bankruptcy, as an example of “wealth”.
Amen wmbz…
Wine cellars and media rooms and elaborate master baths will be of no comfort to these hapless homebuyers once they figure out they can’t pay their monthly note on their half-million dollar budget busters. They’re lucky they can’t get loans to buy these monstrosities.
IIRC General Sherman once came through Columbia and solved the problem of excess housing supply. For some reason the locals didn’t approve of his methods.
Hi. I think RE crash still has l - o - n - g way too go. “elaborate master baths” and “media rooms” for for a cool half a million. Here in Washington DC I follow the market very closely. Occassionally there is a reasonably priced offering. BUT in each of the many of the zip codes I follow - 50 and 60 listings all asking over a million dollars EACH.
“wino cellars”
Freudian slip?
Here’s a real bombshell for those who claim the “mortgage crisis” is over. Got REO?
Nation’s Housing
High credit scorers more likely to cut losses and halt payments
Kenneth R. Harney
2:00 a.m. September 20, 2009
WASHINGTON — Who is more likely to walk away from a house and a mortgage — a person with super-prime credit scores or someone with lower scores?
It’s probably not who you think.
…
With foreclosures, delinquencies and loan losses at record levels, strategic defaults and walkaways are among the hottest subjects in residential real estate finance. Unlike earlier academic studies, Experian and Wyman had the ability to tap into credit files over extended periods of years to identify patterns associated with strategic defaults.
Among researchers’ findings are these eye-openers:
The number of strategic defaults is far beyond most industry estimates — 588,000 nationwide during 2008, more than double the total in 2007. They represented 18 percent of all serious delinquencies that extended for more than 60 days during the fourth quarter of last year.
…
Strategic defaults are heavily concentrated in negative-equity markets where home values zoomed during the boom and have cratered since 2006. In California last year, the total number of strategic defaults was 68 times higher than it was in 2005. In Florida it was 46 times higher. In most other parts of the country, defaults were about nine times higher in 2008 than in 2005. Loans originated across the country in the pivotal market-turn year of 2006 have produced seven times more walkaways than loans originated during 2004, when property values were still rising.
…
While high scorers have lower overall default rates on all their credit activities than people with lower scores, it’s much more likely that when they stop payments on mortgages, the default is intentional and calculated.
Strategic defaulters may know that their credit scores will be severely depressed by their mortgage abandonment, Tantia said in an interview, but they appear to look at it as a business decision: “Well, I’m $200,000 in the hole on my house, and yes, I’ll damage my credit,” he said of defaulters. But they see it as the most practical solution under the circumstances, and they won’t have to deal with their negative equity albatross any further.
…
Cue joeyinCalif for another rip-roaring rant about the immorality of households making personal business decisions that reflect economic reality, instead of trying to make unaffordable mortgage payments forever.
It would be fitting if, after they all found themselves sans house, prices rocketed up into the stratosphere, pricing them out forever.
PB:
So they lose 100 points by the Foreclosure, but the gain 100 points by paying off all their CC cards with the mortgage money
Hey I didnt set up the rules…pffft!
Even better - pay off those non-dischargeable student loans with mortgage money, THEN default.
Well ,PB I go on that rant also sometimes . I guess its time for a new business model . If your credit scores are higher your more likely to walk . In the old days the credit scores were the third consideration in loan underwriting with the property value and down payment being the first and the income and stability of the job being the second
consideration . Black is white and white is black ,dogs sleeping with cats .
Moral of the story for lenders: Don’t make loans against overvalued homes in amounts that are unlikely to ever be repayable out of the household’s income stream, based on the theory that it doesn’t matter because ‘real estate always goes up.’
What difference does it make to the bank? The banks (at least the big four) will get their fees, then dump the loan on various agents of the Federal Government. When the borrower can’t or won’t pay, the bank will get more fees to “modify” the loan. Finally, when the government gets stuck with an abandoned loan, the bank can originate a new loan to someone else for that same house and the cycle repeats.
Why lend at all? Since it’s become fashionable to not repay loans even when borrowers can afford to, why should people with money take the risk?
People begging for money is a sorry sight, but a smart person’s gotta watch out for number one.
I’d be afraid to lend you 2 cents, PB. You might have collateral worth 2 cents that you could put up, but collateral value can depreciate, as we have seen… and if it does, you’re walking.
“…then dump the loan on various agents of the Federal Government.”
Federally guaranteed FHA & GSE loans relieve lenders of ‘dumping’ loans on the Federal Government, as the prearranged dumping is already baked into the contract.
“Since it’s become fashionable to not repay loans even when borrowers can afford to, why should people with money take the risk?”
Apparently lots of folks with money share your view, Joey, which helps explain why the lender of last resort (Uncle Sam) is almost the only lender these days.
“…but collateral value can depreciate, as we have seen… and if it does, you’re walking.”
Catching falling knives is against my religion.
Why lend at all? Since it’s become fashionable to not repay loans even when borrowers can afford to, why should people with money take the risk?
People begging for money is a sorry sight, but a smart person’s gotta watch out for number one.
I’d be afraid to lend you 2 cents, PB. You might have collateral worth 2 cents that you could put up, but collateral value can depreciate, as we have seen… and if it does, you’re walking.
Joey, you state your case well. IMHO the problem, again, is that we’re dealing with banks– legal fictions– rather than real people. These legal fictions makes a complete mush of the whole idea of personal rights and responsibilities.
I think it should be fashionable to repay loans to individuals, but not to banks.
we’re dealing with banks– legal fictions– rather than real people.
Not according to the Supreme Court.
LehighValleyGuy, I, like other depositors, hire a bank to hold my money and to put it to work, and return a profit to me.
Banks may be legal fictions, but it is flesh and blood people who take the losses when borrowers walk away from their responsibility to repay.
Our loss may not be immediate, direct and obvious, but with a bit of thought we can connect the dots and see that we are all paying for those individuals’ irresponsibility.
“Banks may be legal fictions, but it is flesh and blood people who take the losses when borrowers walk away from their responsibility to repay.”
Caveat creditor.
we can connect the dots and see that we are all paying for those individuals’ irresponsibility.
One of the dots you never mention is occupied by for-profit corporations and the laws that protect & enable them in their responsibility for the current debacle. I believe we are all paying far more for corporate irresponsibility than for that of individuals.
tresho.. are you trying to say that corporate irresponsibility somehow justifies personal irresponsibility? Or are you steering the thread’s topic in a new direction?
The latter is understandable, since nothing justifies personal irresponsibility and, there being nothing to debate, we may as well move on.
“I believe we are all paying far more for corporate irresponsibility than for that of individuals.”
And I believe we are all paying unbelievable amounts for free too-big-to-fail insurance to some of the largest financial corporations the world has ever seen.
“Moral of the story for lenders: Don’t make loans against overvalued homes in amounts that are unlikely to ever be repayable out of the household’s income stream, based on the theory that it doesn’t matter because ‘real estate always goes up.’”
I couldn’t have said it better, so I didn’t.
tresho.. are you trying to say that corporate irresponsibility somehow justifies personal irresponsibility? Or are you steering the thread’s topic in a new direction?
The latter is understandable, since nothing justifies personal irresponsibility and, there being nothing to debate, we may as well move on.
I am saying you consistently ignore an elephant under the carpet in this room. Pointing out that a key part of a topic is being deleted/ignored is not steering a thread in a new direction, unless the logic of the thread is thereby completely derailed.
are you trying to say that corporate irresponsibility somehow justifies personal irresponsibility?
In my view, personal responsibility really extends only to other natural persons. If I borrow money from you and don’t make every possible effort to repay it, that’s irresponsible because I’m hurting you personally. But if I don’t repay a bank, who am I hurting? Will the CEO get a lower bonus? Will the shareholders each take a 0.0002% loss when they knew they were buying into a crapshoot anyway? Will the FDIC have to bail out the bank and borrow from the Treasury? The set of losers is too fluid, indeterminate, and unsympathetic to justify any great moral outrage here.
we’re dealing with banks– legal fictions– rather than real people.
Not according to the Supreme Court.
Again I come back to “of the people, by the people, for the people”. The Supreme Court is the final authority– until the people collectively decide that it’s wrong, and figure out what to do about it.
..But if I don’t repay a bank, who am I hurting?..
Shame on you… plagiarizing the Bank Robber’s Bible.
“I’d be afraid to lend you 2 cents, PB. You might have collateral worth 2 cents that you could put up, but collateral value can depreciate, as we have seen… and if it does, you’re walking.”
Not true. PB chose NOT to buy at highly inflated prices that his income under traditional standards could not afford. Thus, unlike the majority of FB’s who gambled and lost, I would say he is a much safer borrower as he will not go into insane debt to satisfy greedy desire to own more house than he can afford. Were he a banker he also would not have made such insane loans, nor would he have unrealistic expectations of being paid back by people who would lose hundreds of thousands of dollars if they do so.
Personally I would much rather loan to the person who saw the dangerous lending practices of the last (almost) decade and didn’t buy into the housing hysteria. So PB, anything you need 2 cents just let me know!
Hear, hear!
“…Personally I would much rather loan to the person who saw the dangerous lending practices of the last (almost) decade and didn’t buy into the housing hysteria. So PB, anything you need 2 cents just let me know!”
I see her 2 cents and back it with my 4 cents, gold based if you like.
“Well, I’m $200,000 in the hole on my house, and yes, I’ll damage my credit,” he said of defaulters.”
It’s not just the $200,000 negative equity, it’s also the interest you have to pay on it. They realize that they’d just be glorified renters for the next ten years, paying exorbitant an rent.
For many people it just makes sense to walk away and start over. The sooner the better. Plus there will be so many of them that allowances will be made. I’m sure that between Fannie, Freddie and FHA, something will be done to get them back into a mortgage.
Don’t throw money away on interest!
Don’t throw money away on interest!
hallelujah….
The problem is that some are assuming that if millions of high score
borrowers walk ,even ones who can afford their payments ,it won’t create a Black Swan event to the likes you have never seen . These loans tend to be in the much higher loan amounts . While you can’t blame someone for not wanting to suffer by being up-side down
for a decade or two ,it would create the biggest tilt this economy
has ever known (with the exception of the Great Depression maybe)
I don’t know what the answers are, given these bizarre
circumstances ,but the fall out from mass walking would be a nightmare ,to say the least .
I think its time to revisit the IRS debt forgiveness act of 2008.
You can get an FHA loan 2 years after bankruptcy and 3 years after foreclosure. If you save during the interim and are able to put 10 pct or more down, you could probably qualify for a low interest 15 year loan with no mortgage insurance. Walking can $ave a lot of interest and grief.
Heck, if you paid 125K for something similar to what you paid 300K for 3 years ago, you could even pay the thing off in less than 15 years. People should take the time to make rational adjustments with all the information and opportunities readily available to them.
marktMaven …The problem with making any plans in the future
is that you are counting on a number of variables staying the
same . Who is to say that lenders won’t require 30% down in 3 years from now . You can’t say how lenders are going to feel
about walkers in the future . Just like the lending industry told
everyone it would be no problem refinancing their toxic adjustable in the future ,or look how the lenders cut credit card limits
after the fact . You can’t say that the lending environment today will be the same one once the Government taps out all its bail out programs .
“Who is to say that lenders won’t require 30% down in 3 years from now”
And the govt will come along with a 29% down payment assistance program is that happens. That’s why banks really don’t care who pays what back. The feds will always have their back.
Wiz,
The fact that the FBs are being characterized as “victims” by everyone in the govt and MSM means that we are more likely to see programs dedicated specifically to getting these “poor victims” back into “homes of their own.”
…much as I hate to say that.
Isn’t it good to know this information? It means that people who want to make perfoming loans will know they have to do it with downpayments.
Maybe we can reorg the whole thing so all the low downpayment loans are recourse and the high downpayment ones are non-recourse. Yes, I understand that is a state thing, but it isn’t a terrible idea. Maybe the tax code can change in the future so the cancellation of debt income isn’t taxed if you hade a high downpayment loan and is taxed if you had a low or no downpayment one. Just throwing out a few possibilities….
Interesting idea Polly . Its clear that the loans have to be changed
because of a major business model change . What it could do is create a situation where unless you put 50% down ,no lender will touch you with a ten foot pole (except government backed loans ).
Isn’t it true that for many years in Europe a borrower had to put 50 to
70% down to get a home loan ? I remember America was considered liberal with the 10 to 20 % down loans (wow times sure did change ).
But I think what it will do is affect good people who could be good pays who have to pay for the long term effect of the gamblers ,who
will most likely change the lending risk models .
I was mostly trying to think of an alternative for lenders other than JUST raising the interest rates to allow access to home loans to those that can’t come up with a large downpayment. Knowing that you will be on the hook forever to the IRS (for taxes on COD income) or the lender (for unpaid amounts on a recourse loan) could help. I admit the recourse thing hasn’t worked for student loans as default rates are exploding, but those are decisions made by a bunch of 17 year olds. I don’t know if it would work, but it is an idea.
Polly …Final analysis ..can’t get blood out of a rock .I think the situation will eventually create a extremely tight money market in which huge down payments will be required . Home ownership will go out of fashion ,unless of course the Government doesn’t run out of money . American will become Renter Nation instead of the Ownership Society .
And if that happened for a decade or two, maybe the mortgage interest deduction could make its final exit from the tax code….
I think what people tend to forget is that the Lenders where simply the decision makers for the deposits of the Nation ,along with World-wide funds . The lenders money is your money in one way or another . Maybe a pension plan ,maybe a deposit in a bank ,maybe a piece of a CDO, maybe your stock value ,maybe you lost your job ,maybe your compromised on fixed income with low rates , maybe your insurance has been raised .maybe your up-side down on your house and your losing because of this Ponzi-scheme . You could be a renter and your money is at risk and future inflation and/or taxes will get you in spite of you not being part of the scheme .
In light of this ,wouldn’t people want a just solution .You would think
people would want a just solution ,rather than dog eat dog and every man for himself type psychology . In the final analysis it might come down to dog eat dog anyway . I just look at damage control ,but I don’t like it when moral hazard goes out the window .
Food for thought, Wiz. Thanks.
Whad’ya know — affordable housing quotas are much easier to meet when home prices are lower. I wonder if the geniuses running Fannie and Freddie ever considered the relationship between home prices and affordability?
The price is right
San Diego Housing Commission plans to borrow against its housing stock to produce 1,035 additional affordable units throughout the city
By Lori Weisberg
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
When San Diego got the go-ahead two years ago to withdraw from the federal government’s long-standing public housing program, it came with the proviso that the city create a relatively modest 350 new housing units for low-income households. The feds would be happy to learn that the city’s housing agency intends to nearly triple that, thanks to a battered economy that has greatly depressed housing values.
Whoo-hoo! Housing projects for everyone!
This is one of the points that makes me reluctant to buy right now, way more than price. I want to see these demographic shifts first, as people migrate to “affordable housing” clusters. I want to be far away from those clusters.
I agree. Only way to stay away from the clusters is pay a premium for living in an older established area. New subdivisions will be full of Section 8 residents.
OOPS, sorry, Eddie, I got a little testy with you above in response to the post on Peter Schiff.
Except now I realize that you’re just a discouraged idealist.
Be true to your ideals, bro’, even when others try to destroy them.
I thought I was the only one who saw this. I am looking at country areas where hardly no one lives. Trying to get as many acres as I can afford away from population centers like FT. Bragg….
You might like Fort Bragg, California…..
http://www.fortbragg.com/
Naw. HBB has been talking about this for a long time on and off. Mostly off in recent days since there are more pressing things to talk about, but the idea that buying in as soon as prices fall is risky because you have no idea where the neighborhood is going to end up has been a recurring theme. It is kind of a vastly expanded version of avoiding condos and HOAs because your rates for common fees will go up if everyone else stops paying. Your safety and quality of life could change if meth labs move in next door. Or you could get lucky and have Lost In Utah squatting and taking care of the place next door, but it is better not to count on it.
You might like Fort Bragg, California
NOTHING west of the mississippi for me! I might get that liberal smell on me…ewwwwww..:)
Polly ..The points in your post bring out the biggest factors in why
it’s risky to buy . Lack of stability makes buying a home a crap
shoot . Can you imagine good neighborhoods going belly up
because of “business decision walking “,by the droves . Who is to say that the beautiful neighborhoods that housed the highest credit score borrowers won’t become boarded up ugly
brown lawn nightmares . Eventually we wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between the good areas and the bad areas from the past . All values will sink to one common value ,and the meek will inherit the earth .
Aw come on Step, the red and blue areas are more mixed than that. Heck, even Pennsylvania looks exactly like the continental US: Blue on the outside, red in the middle.
“Or you could get lucky and have Lost In Utah squatting and taking care of the place next door…”
Thanks, Polly, can I use you for a ref?
Imagine, I show up in my old jeans and hiking boots and sleeping bag and squatter’s cot and circus of animals and post a ref letter from a really smart attorney in DC on the door of the squat.
The irony…
Hey, be nice to us liberals, Step. We aren’t that bad. We even sit next to conservatives sometimes. My future son-in-law is a very strict conservative, evidently, and we all had a great time visiting with each other for one whole day. Of course, he’s in love with our daughter and the weather was really, really nice, and we were in Alexandria, so there were distractions…..LOL.
Silverback
Good thing for US investors that sugar highs last forever…
Economy may be calmer, but investors still facing waves
By Gail MarksJarvis
2:00 a.m. September 20, 2009
At long last, investors have received the soothing news they have been wanting to hear: Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said last week that the recession has probably ended.
“From a technical perspective, the recession is very likely over at this point,” Bernanke told an audience at the Brookings Institution, although he quickly warned, “It’s still going to feel like a very weak economy for some time because many people will still find that their job security and their employment status is not what they wish it was.”
Declaring the recession over may seem like the green light to finally buy stocks with peace of mind. But for investors who have been sitting back waiting for that comfort, they’ll find that many fund managers have beaten them to the bargain rack. Picking stocks now is not an easy task.
The stock market, after a 55 percent rally in the Standard & Poor’s 500 index, has been described by some analysts as being on a sugar high.
…
“It’s still going to feel like a very weak economy for some time because many people will still find that their job security and their employment status is not what they wish it was.”
This is such a candy@ssed statement. Get some b@lls and say something manly. I can’t stand Bernanke.
“The stock market, after a 55 percent rally in the Standard & Poor’s 500 index, has been described by some analysts as being on a sugar high.”
LOL! Watch out, October Ahead!
I see no reason the market cannot continue to rally for some time from its current level, given that economic recovery is underway. Do you disagree? If so, please explain why.
the only way i can see that happening is if the real estate market, being the useless, sickly economic appendage that it currently is, is tied up and locked away in the cellar, to be fed only enough to keep it alive.. while the rest of the economy goes about it’s normal affairs.
Without FIRE, what are our economy’s ‘normal affairs’? Candle shops? O yeah- nursing!
“The stock market, after a 55 percent rally in the Standard & Poor’s 500 index, has been described by some analysts as being on a sugar high.”
I’m wondering if the stock market might absolutely crater in the next several months. When job losses continue unabated, auto sales dry up, and home sales slow and prices fall, it’s got to weave it’s way into the psyche of these witch doctors of finance.
I’m expecting either a huge drop in the stock indices during the next six weeks or a steadily drifting down of the indices over the next two years when the real numbers of jingle mail and foreclosures are too big to hide.
I prefer a “steadily drifting down” of the indices.
There will be even less consumption, as mortgage payments increase five-fold or ten-fold when the resets happen. This will drive down profits and cause more companies to cut costs, including labor costs. Thus unemployment will increase markedly.
Viscious circle that will be broken in time by allowing businesses to fail home prices to drop and individuals to go bankrupt.
“…steadily drifting down of the indices over the next two years…”
Did you mean to say ‘the next twenty years’? Or is it different here than in Japan?
It sounds like the future direction of the US stock market hinges entirely upon whatever the Fed says at its upcoming meeting — or at least that is what someone wants the world to believe
RPT-Wall St Week Ahead: Stocks’ rise hinges on Fed and data
Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:42pm EDT
By Rodrigo Campos
NEW YORK, Sept 20 (Reuters) - U.S. stocks could extend their rally and the Dow industrials .DJI may climb above 10,000 this week, should the Fed’s policy-makers and economic data support the view the economy is recovering from recession.
The Federal Open Market Committee will meet on Tuesday and Wednesday, with investors anxiously awaiting the policy-makers’ assessment of whether the economy is improving.
…
DC HBBers, -Not really on topic but I’m having a cookout today and y’all are invited. There will be coolaide drinkers present so best behavior please. I live in College Park about 1/2 mile from the College Park Station. If you’re interested and need directions feel free to call three zero one, nine eight two seven seven three six for directions.
“There will be coolaide drinkers present so best behavior please.”
Calling on NYCityBoy with a bottle of Jack Daniels!
I know the area well. In my very early teens I used to ride my bike to the College Park airport and watch the yellow Cubs fly around the pattern, then walk past the rows of tied-down airplanes (keeping a respectful distance), dreaming about which one I would own.
One day I found the door of a decrepit little storage shack open and I went inside. There I found stack after stack of mildewing WWII flight training and navigation training manuals. I had lots of reading material for the next several months!
“One day I found the door of a decrepit little storage shack open and I went inside. There I found stack after stack of mildewing WWII flight training and navigation training manuals. I had lots of reading material for the next several months!”
Don’t you love finding your own special treasure? Brings back good memories.
“Do Buy” Into My Magic Recovery Meme, Dubai Honco Pleads:
Dubai World Chairman Sees Return to Growth After Reorganizing
By Anthony DiPaola Sept. 20 (Bloomberg) — Dubai World, the United Arab Emirates sheikhdom’s government-owned holding company, will resume growth after naming new executives and reorganizing holdings, Chairman Sultan Ahmed Bin Sulayem said.
“The worst for us and for that matter, Dubai, is over,” Bin Sulayem said in an interview with daily Gulf News that was confirmed by a spokesman today. “The situation at Dubai World is much better and we are going to move ahead with most of our programs.”
Dubai World, one of the three-largest government-owned groups in the sheikdom, had $59.3 billion in liabilities at the end of 2008 and is restructuring amid a slump in Dubai and a decline of nearly 50 percent in property prices. The company last week named two top executives and shifted assets to streamline the business.
The emirate’s state-run investment and real-estate companies are cutting expenses by putting projects on hold and reducing staff as the global recession cuts access to credit.
Dubai will soon return “to a strong growth path” as government steps to support the economy during the financial crisis will help expansion restore investors’ confidence, Bin Sulayem said.
The government plans to raise the second half of its $20 billion bond program to aid state-owned firms struggling to refinance debt. The first $10 billion was raised by selling bonds to the U.A.E.’s central bank in February.
Those measures have helped restore confidence in Dubai’s economy, meaning bankers are “ready to fund projects,” Bin Sulayem said.
In other words, since “the government is stepping in” (and presumably over a cliff), the laws of mathematics and gravity have been repealed, at least in Doobie - buy.
If the “worst” is over, maybe the “really really unbelievably bad worst” is just beginning?
I’m dubious.
So I had an interesting weekend.
I did some digging around on a situation and found that the base of an entire, huge real etsate scam rumor was based upon a misinterpretation of public records. Of all things, the supposed fraudster’s name.
I told this co-worker to chill out and conduct due dilligence before going “all in.” This would have been an easy case of slander/libel, IMHO. I’m glad he ran it by me first.
I’m reckless, but not that reckless.
To this skeptic, the Dudd plan and the Fed plan share a crucial element: Both create a sole super-regulator of the financial system. It would seem far easier for Megabank, Inc to only have to focus on buying off or otherwise thwarting the efforts of a sole regulator than to have numerous prying eyes trying to pierce through the opacity of their operations. Look no further than the failure of the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight to contain looming problems at the GSEs as evidence on how well a sole financial super-regulator might work.
Leading senator to suggest new plan to oversee banks
In The Union-Tribune on Page A1
By Stephen Labaton
WASHINGTON — The senior Senate Democrat shepherding legislation to overhaul the nation’s financial system is planning to propose the merger of four bank agencies into one super-regulator, an idea that is significantly different from what President Barack Obama envisions.
…
Dodd — who faces a difficult re-election campaign in Connecticut, partly because of the perception that he is cozy with the financial-services industry — decided two weeks ago to remain chairman of the Banking Committee rather than succeed his close friend the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy as head of the health committee.
Senior Democrats in Congress say Dodd might have to thread a needle as he publicly takes on the financial-services industry — whose members have a heavy presence in Connecticut and are some of his biggest campaign contributors — while trying to project an image of independence from it to get re-elected. But as chairman, he may also have to make compromises with industry lobbyists to move the legislation through a chamber in which bankers hold political sway.
…
It sounds like it might prove necessary to find a Senator who is not in bed with top dogs in the FIRE sector to enact meaningful financial reforms. Good luck with that plan!
I imagine they’ll try to get state regulators/prosecutors out of the game. Every now and then one with ambition or actual real honesty gets put in power.
http://customsites.yahoo.com/financiallyfit/finance/article-107752-2691-0-how-one-family-shed-106000-in-debt?ywaad=ad0035
Looks like this is what America is heading too. Living within their means….
wow.. that must have been tough. Gotta give them credit. They are credit worthy.
..Kandy remains a dedicated bargain hunter.
Of course. It’s one of life’s little pleasures.Welcome to the club.
“In April, using the tax credit for first-time home buyers, the Hildebrandts were able to swing the purchase and pay off the remaining balances on their credit cards about six months ahead of schedule.”
More democrap handouts to “religious” people who can never seem to have enough kids.
The small number of childless anti-religious cultists we were blessed with should be extinct if Darwin was right. I’m amazed any in that quiet little corner of the gene pool are still suckin air..
Good job, Hwy50
No matter how hard the anti knowledge anti science religious fanatics try to stomp us out the truth keeps rearing it’s ugly head.
You see Joey knowledge is not a genetic trait it is learned, thus even if every scientist and intelectual were killed by book burning mobs eventually one of their children would start asking questions. Your best hope is to keep people so poor they don’t have time to aks questions that’s how the Taliban do it.
I just wanted to put a comment here to followup on yesterday’s conversation! Specifically, I am responding to Eddie, who was arguing that 130,000$ is excessively cheap (his quote,
“To me $130K for a house that is not in the heart the ghetto seems cheap. Dirt cheap actually. And I guess I am not the only one given the anecdotes told by Temporal.
$130K even with $0 down is a $700 mortgage. Call it $1000 with tax/insurance/maintenance. Can you even rent a house for less than that in Phoenix? How much is a 3 bedroom apartment? Can’t be much less than $1000.”
You may never read this Eddie, being that I’m posting it next-day, but I had to comment on this.
Do you remember a time, in the earlier parts of -this decade- where an investor could buy a home with a modestly small down payment and have a property CASH FLOW when rented?
Seriously, people in that far away time of the early 2000’s actually invested in homes to make profits every single month. We’re talking real investment, buying something and getting an immediate return (as opposed to buying a negative-cash flow property and speculating it’ll go up in value in a year or two to make up for the giant hole you’re putting in your wallet).
Somewhere along the line everyone lost their collective minds and forgot that 130,000$ is BIG MONEY in a town like Phoenix, where the average (recorded - non-illegal) family of 4 brings home 46,000$ a year. In normal times, with normal lending, a good middle-class home should cost roughly 3X this, and phoenix was EXTREMELY CHEAP historically (this whole city is sitting in the middle of a huge stupid-hot desert with suburbs 30 miles in each direction).
In normal times renting isn’t as cheap and buying in almost every market historically. The reason was many people couldnt qualify to buy or didn’t want the trouble of owning a home, and thus a landlord could make a premium over the cost (and 10-20% down payment) they put into buying that home.
The sad thing is, the last 5-6 years has warped everyones perspective SO MUCH. I was having a conversation with a manager at work yesterday, he’s in the process of having his home foreclosed on. I explained I had given up on homebuying and he reflected your sentiments exactly “oh, chicken little here is waiting until everything can be bought for chicken scratch”. He followed it up with “you’re the reason we’re having this problem, people like you not spending your money”, several people in the office laughed.
So I asked him how much he paid for -his- house, back in the early 2000’s, BEFORE taking out the HELOC, just north of south mountain (it’s a nice house, in a not-so-nice neighborhood). 139,000$. He asked me (no, he SPAT at me) if I seriously thought his house he bought in the early 2000’s was “only” worth 139,000$. I replied “well you said yourself the short-sale bid you submitted to the bank was for 150k, minus the 8k housing “credit” in the middle of a buying frenzy to take advantage of it… No, I think your house is worth less.”
Everyone laughed, because I obviously don’t know what I’m talking about. Homes just simply go up in value every year arbitrarily, right? There’s no such thing as fundamentals, it doesn’t matter that the average wage today is less then it was in the early 2000’s, it doesn’t matter that the local economy is in the shitter, who cares that the manager I’m talking to is making 1/4th the income he was making back then (we’re talking 10k to 2500$/month) and hasn’t personally made a payment on said house in over 7 months. No shadow inventory here, no sir-EEE.
Your right Eddie, not everyone is out of a job, I’m running into those 10-20 people outbidding me on homes. So-far most of those people outbidding me are owner-occupants financing through FHA with the smallest down-payment necessary, or at least so-says my realtor. There’s no skin in the game and it’s going to end badly. I’ll buy my home and spend less then 1000$/month doing it (and remember, that’s PLUS utilities, and Electric in phoenix is over 200-300$/month thanks to high AC usage to survive). Until then, I’ll live in my all-utilities-included 2 bedroom apartment for 800$/month 5 miles from work, and be happy about it.
Temp,
Consider the source of said stupidity.
Good 4u temp. You are right and your coworkers shouldn’t be laughing, especially considering the evidence right in front of their faces (house prices down, down, down).
These are the 12-15 people in your office who aren’t making their mortgage payments and are going to be kicked out of their houses at some point down the line, right ? Don’t worry about it, Temp. Half of them will be gone by this time next year. You will still have money in the bank and your credit rating intact. Whether they’re saving $ 10 - 12 thousand by not paying their mortgages for a year is almost immaterial, because sometime down the road, they’re going to want to have decent credit. We refused to rent to 5 potential tenants who had crappy credit and bankruptcies on their records this summer. A realtor informed us that “everyone has poor credit these days”. We were holding out for a family with good credit, and we got one. Everyone else either had dozens of unpaid bills, bankruptcies, foreclosures, and judgments against them on their credit records, except for the nice dentist lady with the two dogs who chose another place. It’s fascinating to see how people justify the most outlandish things just to make a buck. If “everyone” has terrible credit, then how come we are still solvent ? Realtors. Duh.
1. Obviously cheap is relative. One man’s pittance is another man’s fortune. To me, $130,000 wasn’t big money 10 years ago and it’s not today, in terms of housing. As a point of reference my parents bought their last house in 1988 for $229,000.
2. “it’s a nice house, in a not-so-nice neighborhood). 139,000$.”
Money quote right there. Re-read my post. I qualified my statement by saying a **NON-GHETTO** house for $130K is cheap. If this manager of yours bought pre-boom for $139K IN THE GHETTO, then how can you say today, 9-10 years later, $130K, NON-GHETTO house is not cheap? You’re getting the same house in a better neighborhood for less money 10 years later and still it’s too expensive in your eyes.
3. “average wage today is less then it was in the early 2000’s,”
No it isn’t. Median income in Phoenix was $39K in 2000 according to Census data. According to you it is $46K today. That’s an 18% increase over the decade.
Exeter: don’t you have some ACORN crimes to defend?
Spoken like a true to life believer in the housing lie. No question you’re deluded on most everything but I had no idea the depth of your delusion when it comes to building and housing.
When 2008 RS Means indicates that I can build for $48/sq ft(and make money), do you honestly think we take you seriously when you state your opinion that $130k for a used shack is “cheap”?
Hint: We don’t.
If ACORN is closely tied to CRA and CRA is directly tied to the subprime lending crisis, how can this not be a national issue?
(Please see posts on yesterday’s bits buckets for some evidence on this point.)
Obama favors investigation into ACORN’s activities
(AP) – 35 minutes ago
WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama says there deserves to be an investigation into that hidden-camera video involving two employees at the activist group ACORN and a couple posing as a prostitute and her pimp.
The ACORN workers are seen apparently advising the couple to lie about her profession and launder her earnings.
The House has voted to deny all federal funds for the group, while the Senate agreed to shut off housing and community grant money. The Census Bureau has cut ties with ACORN for the 2010 national census amid Republican accusations of voter-registration fraud.
Obama tells ABC’s “This Week” that what he saw on the video “was certainly inappropriate and deserves to be investigated.” He did not say who should investigate. But he also says it’s not a major national issue and it’s not something he’s paying a lot of attention to.
…
Not sure about the reliability of the source, but if the details of this story prove true, it is a housing market political-economic bombshell.
Small wonder the left-of-left wing posters here always try to change the subject when the links between CRA and ACORN are mentioned!
Democrats Surprise - But Only After Fox News Forces Their Hand!
Submitted by PonteVedraMan on Thu, 09/17/2009 - 20:55.
…
“Far more than we’ve recognized, ACORN’s local, CRA-enabled pressure tactics served to entangle the financial system as a whole in the subprime mess. ACORN was no side-show. On the contrary, using CRA and ties to sympathetic congressional Democrats, ACORN succeeded in drawing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into the very policies that led to the current financial disaster.”
…
Wow! What an authoritative link! Scraping the bottom of the barrel are we? Now I understand the importance of providing links with my posts. Good to see you back up your rarely-provided opinions with such scholarly research.
The fact that research is not scholarly does not imply it is wrong.
Wow oh wow, you really can’t let it go can you PB. Third day now. So your facts are not agenda driven is that correct? All the sudden everything that was done to help the poor is now responsible for all that is wrong with this country?
I agree an investigation should be held. I agree heads should roll. The leader of ACORN is willing to have audits done VOLUNTARILY so they can run their group better and legally. Do you hear any of the banks, the Federal Reserve, wall street, willing to change what they have wrecked? I believe right now the Federal Reserve is fighting an audit.
I have no agenda. But I enjoy plucking the nuggets of truth which occasionally emerge from the ongoing Tweedledee/Tweedledum bickering between America’s two major parties. This CRA story has legs, and I sincerely hope it gets thoroughly aired so we can avoid repeating the mistakes that led to the housing bubble over at least the next 100 years.
P.S. At this point, I am personally (if subjectively) convinced that the CRA was a primary causal factor behind the bubble. And I have no political agenda — in fact, I voted for Obama
“…I am personally (if subjectively) convinced that the CRA was a primary causal factor behind the bubble.”
I’m with ya Mr. Bear, however, sometimes it’s what is not “noted” …that causes distortion in “truth telling”. Kinda like, “yeah it was a knuckleheaded idea/policy…however… it’s a good thing that not one (x1) “compassionate conservative” repubican banker/buisness owner/”investor” took not one iota of advantage… so as to accumulate even more wealth at the expense of “less-educated” fellow American citizens. That would not only be un-American, it would be un-Christian…and that combination surely would cause such “compassionate” fellow beings not to sleep very well for at least 4 nights in a row.
If “catastrophic blame” where a Venn diagram… what size would Sir Mr. Greenissspent & the Federal Reserve Corporation circle be?
“At this point, I am personally (if subjectively) convinced that the CRA was a primary causal factor behind the bubble.”
Oh yeah? If the ACORN/CRA axis of evil was really the gargantuan hobgoblin that you make it out to be, how come nothing was done by their nemisis when they owned all three branches of govt, 2000-2006?
If you need anymore evidence that we were LED to this, allow me to refresh your memory..
http://tinyurl.com/ngpudf
“All the sudden everything that was done to help the poor is now responsible for all that is wrong with this country?”
This is exactly what I mean by ‘poorly focused.’ I post on many topics here, and when I dare to post on one you personally dislike, you generalize the very narrow scope of my argument to a strawman characterization that I am trying to cast blame for ‘all that is wrong with this country.’ Could you kindly narrow the focus of your rebuttal
to the objective facts and circumstances of my posts? Otherwise, we will suspect you have an agenda.
Yeah. You posted about ten links to stories that paint ACORN/CRA’s as the main cause of the economic collapse. When people point out the weakness/absurdity of the ideas expressed in many of the posts, you get on some moral high-horse about how you just post ‘em, you don’t write ‘em. These aren’t necessarily your opinion, yada, yada…Well guess what, in the rest of the world, people perceive such postings as your opinion. Why wouldn’t we? It’s not like you ever posted a counter-argument. That would be what an ‘agenda-less’ person would do.
I am quite fascinated by the irony that the CRA and other ‘affordability’ programs were likely a key factor behind pushing American house prices to absurdly unaffordable levels. I also am intrigued by the vigorous attempts some of you have mustered to change the topic off any post which dares to suggest CRA may have significantly contributed to the housing bubble. This indicates to me that there must be quite a lot of CRA dirt to hide. One of the great values of this blog is to provide a forum to give dirty laundry lots of air.
This may not qualify as “scholarly”, here is an article from a relatively more reputable source for you to chew on:
* THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
* BEST OF THE WEB TODAY
* SEPTEMBER 16, 2009
Obama and Acorn
Is there a case for a special prosecutor?
This stuff is way too good to make it up! From the non-scholarly Wall Street Journal article:
The woman manning the Acorn office in San Bernardino, Calif., Tresa Kaelke, responds to the pair’s requests for help setting up a child-prostitution ring by claiming to be an ex-prostitute herself. “Heidi Fleiss is my hero!” she exclaims.
When Giles claims her former pimp abused her, Kaelke tells of having been abused by an ex-husband–then confesses to his premeditated murder. San Bernardino’s finest are looking into the claim: “Investigators have been in contact with the involved party’s known former husbands, who are alive and well.” Thus her claims “do not appear to be factual.” Politico’s Ben Smith interprets this as meaning that the confession was “a joke” and writes that according to Acorn, this “demonstrates that the employee there was playing along with the outlandish visitors, not actually indulging them.”
Your fascination with the story is much more revealing. Do you really think those ACORN workers did anything that a thousand ‘free market’ mortgage brokers didn’t do? Coaching people how to ‘qualify’ for a mortgage. Yeah, that proves they were the key factor driving the whole mania. The fact that the big boyz made billions from it was purely coincidental. Forced upon them, really.
“Do you really think those ACORN workers did anything that a thousand ‘free market’ mortgage brokers didn’t do?”
Are you suggesting that ‘free market mortgage brokers’ offered advice to pimps and prostitutes on how best to hide their business practices from the IRS? Not to suggest that I would put it past a mortgage broker to do such a thing, but where is the hidden camera expose?
“Yeah, that proves they were the key factor driving the whole mania.”
Taken right out of your own mouth, not mine.
Next I’ll announce *sarcasm*, since it’s clearly not recognized.
“Are you suggesting that ‘free market mortgage brokers’ offered advice to pimps and prostitutes on how best to hide their business practices from the IRS?”
YES! Does this shock you? Are you that naive? Do you think *no one* else lied on their mortgage apps other than those coached by ACORN? Do you think no other mortgage brokers coached people on how to do this? Do you think Wall Street was powerless to stop or at least slow such actions? Do you think they would have if they could have? Puh-lease!
Prof, you gotta let this one go….
“I believe right now the Federal Reserve is fighting an audit.”
I sincerely hope Ron Paul succeeds in his efforts to bring about an audit of the Fed.
Ohhhh. They’re doing internal investigations. Well, then that settles that. I’m sure they’ll be 100% legit. OK everyone, nothing left to see here. They’re going to have an internal investigation…move along folks this story’s over.
And nice to see yet another ACORN defender use the “yeah but ________ does bad things do” defense. Can’t you just accept the fact that ACORN is a criminal enterprise without playing the two wrongs make a right game? I thought even dyed in the wool liberals would cringe at the thought of underaged prostitution. Guess not.
‘“yeah but ________ does bad things do” defense…’
Bingo! Why are ACORN’s apologists always in such a hurry to change the subject? It immediately leads one to suspect they must have a lot of dirty laundry to hide.
The funny thing is that I knew very little about ACORN until this scandal broke. And my fascination with it is only heightened by the efforts of some posters here to use personal attacks on me (e.g., labeling me a Jihadist) to shut off the discussion.
Why do so many posters here jump to the defense of agency which offers government-provided consulting services to advise hookers and prostitutes on how to hide income from the IRS and hide underage sex slaves from government scrutiny? Is this the kind of thing you people think is good for society? What is wrong with you?
Who’s changing the subject? We’re pointing out the absurdity of the subject. I guess unless we agree with you, we’re changing the subject. And we’re not defending the workers, we’re laughing at the fact you seem to think they were somehow the primal agents of the mania.
Who’s had the wool pulled over their eyes by the banksters now?
“I thought even dyed in the wool liberals would cringe at the thought of underaged prostitution.”
Jon Stewart brought up that point in his Daily Show piece on ‘The Audacity of Hos.’ It is hard for me to fathom what kind of person would summarily jump to the defense of an organization that supports under-aged prostitution. Could those of you defending jumping in to defend ACORN please explain this so we can better understand your thinking?
Can anyone provide written proof that this is their policy? That it is also a wide spread common practice? Management memos? Management e-mails? Historical trends?
Out of the total number of “sting” teams sent out, how many incidents were similar?
‘Out of the total number of “sting” teams sent out, how many incidents were similar?’
At least three (in San Diego, San Bernardino and some East Coast locale featured on The Daily Show) successfully involved the fake hooker sting operation.
… and some East Coast locale featured on The Daily Show …
Baltimore, baby!
ACORN is a non-profit. Non-profits are largely regulated by the IRS since getting tax exempt status is a repsonsibility of the IRS. States in which they conduct activities also have a role. Guarantee you that more than one state will start some sort of investigation.
Non profits may not have “purposes or activities that are illegal or violate fundamental public policy.” Advising people on how to commit tax fraud certainly counts if it is considered an activity of the organzation.
Here is an IRS page found by typing “charity illegal activities” into the search box on irs.gov:
http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=123299,00.html
By the way, it turns out that the amendments to the student loan bill requiring that all grants and funding to ACORN be cut off may be unconstitutional as a Bill of Attainder since there hasn’t been any trial/convision yet. That will merely slow things down, because I just don’t see the contracts being renewed. It will depend on the length of the contracts. I hope they leave the amendments in as it could help the rest of the bill pass and that student loan bill is important.
Non profits may not have “purposes or activities that are illegal or violate fundamental public policy.”
Wouldn’t it be nice if the same restriction applied to ‘for-profit’ corporations like Goldman Sachs? Profits of their prohibited activities could be clawed back and the corporation itself liquidated, which would be the equivalent of a corporate death penalty, making corporations even more like ‘real people’ than they are at the moment.
Hear hear!
“Non-profits are largely regulated by the IRS since getting tax exempt status is a repsonsibility of the IRS.”
Will the IRS potentially have a problem with ACORN providing advice to hookers and pimps on how to hide the nature of their operations? I am guessing that not all hookers and pimps pay federal taxes (even the ones who describe themselves as ‘performing artists’), but please correct me if I am off base here.
You are really hung up on this. I have to say it again wow oh wow oh wow.
What makes you think the IRS enforces anti-prostitution laws? Aren’t those state laws?
The whole form is signed under penalties of perjury, but the definition of performance artist is pretty vague. You’d have a heck of a time proving the adult woman wasn’t a performance artist in a court of law. If I had to guess, no one tried to prosecute Bernie Madoff for failing to put “embezzeler” on the occupation line of his 1040.
Now, there are restrictions on who can be claimed as a dependent. I have a book here from a volunteer thing I try to do each year that states quite clearly that you cannot claim “dependency exemptions for a housekeeper or other household employee.” I think the underage prositutes would qualify as either a household employee or other type of employee…well, OK, maybe more like slaves, but there aren’t any rules for that in the code that I know of. So it is the advice to take the 13 years olds as dependents that would be the actual tax violation…
PB you’ve really been on a rampage lately
Again answer these questions
1. What $ percentage of loans made to redlined districts were subprime and compare them to the percentage in non redlined districts. This should be a no brainer because the redlined districts are full of people with lower education levels and thus more easily duped by mortgage brokers. We alredy know that brokers were paid more for stearing people to subprime loans.
2. Repeat this for all loans made by CRA regulated and non regulated institutions.
3. Also show that CRA mandated lower standards strictly in financial terms.
You already noted that at it’s peak CRA loans were 19% (not sure where you got this statistic) that was for a single year thus the total accrued over the last decade is by your numbers is less than 19%. Tell me how this is the cause of the subprime crisis. How is it that 50% of subprime loans were made by banks with absolutely zero CRA regulation and 25% by banks with only partial subprime regulation.
“PB you’ve really been on a rampage lately”
Fueled by the vigorous responses to my posts on ACORN & CRA…
Filed under: “Hurry, hurry, hurry…Buy Gold! Buy Gold! Buy Gold!”
“The IMF is the world’s third-largest holder of gold reserves….”
“These sales will be conducted in a responsible and transparent manner that avoids disruption of the gold market,”
“The IMF said it would “stand ready to sell gold directly to central banks.” The sales could also be conducted in the open market in a “phased manner” over time,…”
IMF Board Approves Sale of 403.3 Metric Tons of Gold:
By Sandrine Rastello, Sept. 18 (Bloomberg)
Daffy Duck: “Consequences, Schmonsequences, as long as I’m rich.”
“These sales will be conducted in a
responsibledeliberate andtransparentopaque manner thatavoidsensures disruption of the gold market,”As opposed to the responsible and transparent creation of US dollars by the Fed? I wouldn’t worry, China would buy it all if they could get their hands on it. BTW, the World Gold Council (as of Dec 2007) says the People’s Bank of China held 600 metric tons of gold, the European Central Bank has 604 metric tons, and streetTracks Gold Shares held 628 metric tons. What about the US? Maybe 8200 tons of gold but no one really knows.
Once saw a graphic that illustrated that ALL the gold in the world collect in one place would equal an area somewhat equivalent to 1/3 of the Washington monument.
IMF to sell gold:
I don’t know what to make of this, just as I didn’t know what to make of the Bank of England’s actions 10 years ago (which seems like only yesterday)
In 1999 the Bank Of England began selling half of its gold reserves, more gold than the IMF is proposing to sell now.
“The £4 billion of gold reserves - 415 tonnes - will be converted into euros, dollars and yen over the next few years. The sale will see the proportion of reserves held in gold falling from 17 per cent to 7 per cent.
The European Central Bank, which administers the euro, has been encouraging those countries in the single currency to sell some of their huge gold reserves. It believes gold is a bad investment. The price peaked at $835 an ounce in 1980, but it has been struggling along at around $300 for the last 10 years. Yesterday, the price dropped sharply from $289.25 an ounce to $282.40.
” Source: Telegraph 1999
The Bank of England sold their gold at around $280 an ounce and many lucky and smart people got to buy it at around that price too.
I don’t think I’ll buy or sell any gold based solely on the IMF or any government announcement.
Gold should be taking a hit in the next few weeks to perhaps a couple of months.
Ted Butler, the metals guru, said that there is a near record number of Gold shorts on the paper Comex market. Silver is also shorted heavily. Apparently there is not enough gold & silver to cover the ETF’s GLD & SLV and that is one of the reasons for the shorts.
Maybe they see some deflation a head and thenk they can do better by converting to cash.
Hey Mr. Bear morning math problem, what percentage is 500 of 1 .1 Billion people?
What’s Chinese slang for: “Me first!”
The Chinese Communist Party “needs to play an active role to facilitate harmony in political, ethnic, religious and class relations among our compatriots at home and abroad,” Hu said.
“The party must crack down on “separatist forces” that are plotting to create schisms between the nation’s 56 major ethnic groups,…”
“The “rise in incidents involving more than 500 people is worthy of heightened vigilance,”
China Faces ‘Arduous Task’ for Stable Growth, Society:
By Bloomberg News, Sept. 20
“…what percentage is 500 of 1 .1 Billion people?”
Zero (rounded to the fourth decimal place)
0 = (mirrors official Chinese policy: “We have no social problems…we can’t handle”)
More precise calculation (thank you, Google):
(500/1,100,000,000)*100 = 4.54545455 × 10^(-5) percent
The debate on the role of CRA in the housing crisis is a tremendous one, which I am thoroughly enjoying. It ties in nicely with much of the discussion on this blog over the years about the folly of trying to turn every American household into a homeowner household. I have especially enjoyed the off-topic and poorly focused rebuttals of many of the far-left of left wing posters here. Let’s hear some more of them today
The article linked in below shows the direct role Bill Clinton played in destroying the financial integrity of the GSEs.
Subprime Commission
Posted 09/11/2009 06:48 PM ET
Peter Wallison, minority member.
Financial Crisis: Congress has impaneled a “bipartisan” commission to get to the bottom of the subprime scandal. Will it? Only if it listens to a panelist who predicted the disaster.
…
This crisis wasn’t a failure of capitalism, Wallison argues. It was a failure of government.
“The crisis would not have become so extensive and intractable,” he recently said, “had the U.S. government not created the necessary conditions for a housing boom by “directing investments into the housing sector , requiring banks to make mortgage loans they otherwise would never have made , requiring Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to purchase the secondary mortgage market loans they would never otherwise have bought and encouraging underwriting standards for housing that were lower than for any other area of the economy.”
An early critic of the Community Reinvestment Act, a banking rule that socializes mortgages, Wallison argues too much regulation caused the mortgage meltdown.
As we’ve detailed on these pages, President Clinton strengthened the CRA (by requiring, for the first time, numerical quotas for affirmative lending) and used it to pressure banks into making risky loans and to adopt “flexible” lending standards.
The same pressure was brought to bear on Fannie and Freddie. Those agencies adapted their underwriting standards so they could accept the loans made under the CRA and other loans that did not conform to what had been considered sound lending practices.
Outrageously, Clinton’s HUD required Fannie and Freddie to underwrite fully half of their mortgages for lower-income, higher-risk borrowers — a quota that remained in effect several years into the Bush administration.
By 1997, Fannie was offering a 97% loan-to-value mortgage — well above the standard 80% LTV. And by 2001, it was offering mortgages with no down payment at all, along with other deficiencies. Those relaxed standards spread to the wider market, including prime mortgage markets and speculative borrowers, Wallison says.
By 2008, when the crash hit, Fannie and Freddie held well over a trillion dollars in subprime, Alt-A and other junk loans — junk that infected Wall Street in the form of mortgage-backed securities that were sliced and diced into tranches and sold and resold the world over.
“The crisis has its roots in the U.S. government’s efforts to increase homeownership, especially among minority and other underserved or low-income groups,” Wallison concludes.
Americans deserve an honest airing of government’s role in the mess. But don’t expect the commission, which will hold hearings and release a report next year, to give Wallison (who’s already being demonized by liberal bloggers as the “backer of the CRA myth“) much running room.
…
I have especially enjoyed the off-topic and poorly focused rebuttals of many of the far-left of left wing posters here.
We have similarly enjoyed the evasive, highly parsed, factually barren, red-herring-filled non-responses from the crowd that believes racism is long-dead and that behind every problem in the world today is a poor person, an illegal immigrant, or a sneaky bureaucrat — if the conspiracy cards line up right, hell, it might be a trifecta.
Wow — I guess you are pretty much labeling me as part of the vast right wing conspiracy that backs the CRA myth? Cool
Nah, only some of that applies directly to you … I couldn’t very well leave out some of our other favorite posters, could I?
“…that believes racism is long-dead and that behind every problem in the world today is a poor person, an illegal immigrant, or a sneaky bureaucrat…”
What did anything I post have to do with any of this litany of all the perceived threats that bedevil America’s poor, illegal immigrants and sneaky bureaucrats? Your accusations seem to come from straight out of ‘left field’ (snark).
Principle Numero Uno of racist politics: Never hesitate to label anyone who disagrees with anything you say as a racist.
When have a called you or anyone else here a racist?
Principle number two: If you find a story that implicates poor non-whites as the cause of the mania, post those stories again and again and again. Then act like you’re just the innocent messenger when called out on their absurdities. And that everyone that crticizes you is employing racial politics. Fox News has taught us well.
And that everyone that crticizes you is employing racial politics. Fox News has taught us well.
Don’t forget “political correctness.” It’s been invoked somewhere in this Bits as well.
If Hitlary ever gets elected president, then anything she ever says or does will get blanket immunity from criticism by those who will quickly label any critics as sexist.
If Hitlary ever gets elected president, then anything she ever says or does will get blanket immunity from criticism by those who will quickly label any critics as sexist.
Based on the ancient principle, “Give a dog a bad name and hang him.”
I would have liked to have had blanket immunity w/ Hillary, when she was about 22.
Gah!
Yo Professor what do you think Hill would have done as Pres about this meltdown?
I can’t imagine things would have played out much differently (i.e. I assume she would have employed the same “put Humpty-Dumpty back together again” type strategy we are currently witnessing…).
Maybe but would she have bailed out AIG?
Maybe she wouldn’t have been so bamboozled like OHbaaaama?
“Hitlary” - The posting of a man with no agenda! (And of course the opposition would resort to *name calling*, if ‘Hitlary’ were elected.)
Americans deserve an honest airing of government’s role in the mess.
Certainly.
Do Americans also deserve an honest airing of the private sector’s role in the mess?
What should the penalty for the private sector’s well-documented malfeasance be?
“Do Americans also deserve an honest airing of the private sector’s role in the mess?”
Why do you always try to change the subject when it is the CRA? Is there something here you would rather avoid discussing?
OK, that could be rightly construed as off-topic.
But you still haven’t managed to tell us how a 30 year old law suddenly morphed into a virulent virus that “significantly” contributed to the housing bubble. I and at least one other poster asked you to answer that a couple days ago with some verifiable data; instead I see you’re simply posting any and all CRA-related articles you can find (aka, the Sh!twall Approach — throw it all, and see what sticks).
Why do you continually evade questions about the premise (your premise) that started this debate? Could it be that you can’t back it up with anything more than partisan rhetoric and “hunches”?
What should the penalty for the private sector’s well-documented malfeasance be? Putting a certain number of corporations out of existence after clawing back their profits from their ‘beneficiaries.’ Didn’t we used to have anti-trust laws?
Does anyone have hard numbers on the exact number of sub-prime mortgages and of those, how many were “liar loans?” And the exact number or CRAs and of those how many were “liar loans?”
Until I see those numbers, all I see right now is a diversion created to take the heat off of the corporations who outright lied about the mix of their offered securities and their true ratings as well as approving people they KNEW couldn’t keep up payments. This much is already documented fact.
Nicely said. “Diversion” was a well-chosen term …
The CRA debate was enlightening but it’s hard to get a handle on any real, relative numbers but I might have found one.
From the article below could we say the CRA’s were responsible for 6% of the bubble? If so, is 6% a lot? I would say a 6% cause of a problem is worth about 2% of my attention.
Sorry if article was posted before.
“I can state very definitively,” Sandra Braunstein, director of the Federal Reserve’s consumer and community affairs division, said during a House Financial Institutions subcommittee hearing Wednesday, “that from the research we have done, the Community Reinvestment Act is not one of the causes of the current crisis.”
“(Braunstein) cited a Federal Reserve Board analysis which found that, in 2006, CRA-covered banks operating in CRA-targeted neighborhoods accounted for just six percent of the risky, high-cost loans largely responsible for the housing crisis.”
“So I can tell you,” Braunstein said, “if that’s where you’re going, that CRA was not the cause of this loan crisis.”
http://washingtonindependent.com/34376/battling-the-cra-myth
Thank you Rio. Well-researched.
how many were “liar loans?” And the exact number or CRAs and of those how many were “liar loans?”
Great point. The 6% listed above was for total CRA loans, not ones that were proven to be “liar” loans.
So maybe the CRA’s were only something like 1-2% responsible for the “bubble”?
I welcome other sourced numbers to this debate as I would like to form a conclusion myself.
Thanks, Rio.
Nice post
Yet no single housing proposal will likely inspire the outcry of the push to expand the CRA. Passed in 1977, the CRA requires banks to “help meet the credit needs of the local communities in which they are chartered,” regardless of income levels. The law was enacted to prevent banks from denying loans based on the poverty levels of certain neighborhoods — a practice known as redlining. Though the CRA doesn’t mandate that a certain number of loans be made to low-income borrowers, it rates banks according to their willingness to meet community needs. Regulators consider those ratings when the banks apply for expansions, acquisitions and mergers.
The CRA modernization proposal, introduced Thursday by Rep. Eddie Bernice Johnson (D-Texas), would also require the institutions to consider the racial profile — not just the income level — of the targeted community.
“The banks have made money under these guidelines,” Johnson said, “and so will the mortgage institutions.”
Writing in The Washington Post last September, conservative op-ed columnist Charles Krauthammer summarized the right’s opposition to the CRA: “It led to tremendous pressure on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — which in turn pressured banks and other lenders — to extend mortgages to people who were borrowing over their heads,” Krauthammer wrote. “That’s called sub-prime lending. It lies at the root of our current calamity.”
Yet the Fed’s research points to a different reality. “Our analysis of the data finds no evidence, in fact, that CRA lending is in any way responsible for the current crisis,” Fed board member Elizabeth Duke said in a speech before representatives of the banking industry last month. “The CRA is designed to promote lending in low- to moderate-income areas; it is not designed to encourage high-risk lending or poor underwriting.”
Advocates are quick to point out that the CRA includes a safety and soundness provision that discourages bad loans. “It has a built-in check saying that [banks] have to lend in a way that’s good for the institution and good for the community,” said Danna Fisher, legislative director at the National Low Income Housing Coalition.
PB
I agree with your take on the GSE’s, I just haven’t read anything that makes me think that the CRA regulation played a major role in the housing crisis. Yes the GSE’s purchased their loans and secuitization of all forms is the primary culprit. I mean there are many McMansions out there in forclosure. YOu haven’t rebutted any of my posts.
I posted this earlier last evening, thought it was interesting:
Just came across this interesting article:
Leading Senator Pushes New Plan to Oversee Banks
WASHINGTON — The senior Senate Democrat shepherding legislation to overhaul the nation’s financial system is planning to propose the merger of four bank agencies into one super-regulator, an idea that is significantly different from what President Obama envisions.
Senator Christopher Dodd, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, wants changes in President Obama’s financial plan.
The legislation being prepared by Senator Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut, who heads the Senate Banking Committee, would also differ from the Obama plan by diminishing the role of the Federal Reserve as a systemwide overseer.
Mr. Dodd’s plan is intended to be the starting point for the Senate as it redraws the financial landscape in response to the market crisis.
Here’s the rest of the story: http://tinyurl.com/nxm6xc
The key point of both the Dudd plan and the Fed plan:
Limit the number of financial regulatory agencies to one, in order to make it easier for Megabank, Inc to target its efforts to thwart the regulatory process.
Although there was muchmade of big banks shopping around for the most leniant regulator. The way understand it each bank had some say on where their regulation came from. Mozillo was able to change regulators and make demands on the new regulatory group.
So having multipel regulators only helps if they are checking on each other. If banks can select from 4 and there are no checks and balances it’s worse than one.
pressboardbox,
Saw your postings yesterday. First posting too funny. Second posting about being stupid, pressboardbox you are not stupid. Aggravating, a PITA, but not stupid.
This guy raises the same point I have often made about lending to low-income communities: Why would banks leave money on the table by foregoing profitable lending opportunities?
House Committee Examines CRA
in News > Residential Mortgage
By MortgageOrb dot com on Friday 18 September 2009
A House committee hearing this week yielded varying opinions on the role of the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA), which Congress passed in 1977 in an effort to boost lending to low-income neighborhoods.
…
Lawrence J. White, professor of economics at the New York University Stern School of Business, took a different track. “The CRA is not a good public policy tool for achieving the goals of it advocates,” he concluded.
“[T]he CRA is based on the notion that banks systematically overlook profitable opportunities in [low- and moderate-income] communities,” he said, adding that the notion “seems unlikely in today’s environment.”
…
As I asked time & time again: aside from check-cashing/donunt/billpaying stripmall outlets & 0% down mortgage loans, what is MegaBank’s next vector for profit exploitation that can be applied to millions of people on a daily/weekly/monthly schedule …atm/credit card fees?
“[T]he CRA is based on the notion that banks systematically overlook profitable opportunities in [low- and moderate-income] communities,” he said, adding that the notion “seems unlikely in today’s environment.”
Bullcrap. Banks were PROVEN time and time again and with a long (decades) historical trend to redline minority neighborhoods and discriminate on loan terms with all else being equal (income, employment, credit history) by the borrowers.
Perhaps you missed the point, which is that in theory, if neighborhoods are truly redlined (meaning at least some banks lexicographically decide to not lend there), an arbitrage opportunity is opened for any bank willing to break the rule and find the good credit risks in that area as lending customers.
Perhaps you missed the point, which is that in theory, if neighborhoods are truly redlined (meaning at least some banks lexicographically decide to not lend there), an arbitrage opportunity is opened for any bank willing to break the rule.
Yes Mr. Minority we will lend you money for your home you must pay 2x the closing costs, and 1.5X the interest rate as your white coworker up the street a few blocks because you live in a part of town we consider undesirable. More people on your side of town default so because you live there we believe you are more likely to default.
I did not miss the point. Each city has it’s reasons for penalizing certain neighborhoods though they all boil down to some form of control over the city’s poorest and creating a permanent underclass for exploitation. Redlining and collusion by banks is just one tool to accomplish this. Perhaps you seem to think that collusion is some nutty conspiracy theory.
Collusion is a commonplace and everyday fact of big business and the main reason the CRA was enacted, even though redlining was already illegal.
Are you saying that there were no lenders willing to find the good credit risks in redlined areas? The solution to that would appear to be creating a more competitive lending market, rather than forcing banks to lower their underwriting standards.
Most lenders will take advantage of you if you are not on your guard. This is also true of most business. This why we have so many laws, rules and regulations.
They were NOT forced to lower their lending standards. This is myth. An outright lie. They were forced to stop redlining.
Redlining - –noun
a discriminatory practice by which banks, insurance companies, etc., refuse or limit loans, mortgages, insurance, etc., within specific geographic areas, esp. inner-city neighborhoods.
This law as passed in 1977.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act
Educate yourself.
In America, you must behave like “others”… especially in regards to the colors you are “allowed” to choose from your crayon box…
(Down the street from Mr. Cole’s Grandma’s house)
News from behind: “The O.C.”
Colorful house among historic ones. Too much? Or cool?:
September 18th, 2009, by Jim Radcliffe OC Register
“…Her color choice has stirred up enough responses to cause some neighbors to start a petition against her house. The petition did not amount to anything, Carder said, but that does not stop some neighbors from personally disagreeing with her color choices…”
“It demonstrates a general lack of regard or consideration for her neighbors, and shows wanton disrespect in the context of a historic neighborhood,” said neighbor and interior designer Diane Von Gerichten.
BWAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! (fpss™)
Be like me, act like me, think like me…welcome to, the “The O.C.”
Many HOAs have very specific external appearance rules.
Heck, many towns and cities have the same rules.
And people think they’re free. :eyes:
I just published a new post.
Sorry to post so much on CRA and ACORN, but there is just so much out there to post on — it’s like a blogger’s cornucopia!
Calif. Gov. Schwarzenegger seeks state probe of ACORN
September 16, 2009 | 1:48 pm
(UPDATE: 4:48 p.m. California Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger joined a growing chorus of officials today and called on the state’s attorney general to launch an investigation into ACORN due to the latest charges of illegal activity by the group, this time in San Bernardino, Calif.
His letter:
Over the past few days, I have seen a series of news stories regarding the ACORN organization that have concerned me greatly. As you may be aware, the most recent report has come out of San Bernardino.
Given this, I believe it is appropriate that your office launch a full investigation into ACORN’s activities in California. My administration stands ready to assist in any way necessary.
Has the right wing come up with a good descriptive name to refer to the ACORN scandal? I am wondering if Hookergate might capture it?
I apologize to everyone here who thinks I am some kind of a racist because of my sincere fascination over the ACORN scandal that recently broke. But I suggest those of you in this group should take a look at yourselves in the mirror, and ask, “Isn’t there something just a teensy bit fascinating about a story that suggests federal monies funded a consulting service to help hookers and pimps hide illegal income and activities”? Isn’t that just a wee bit intriguing?
I have to rank the fascination of this story right up there with that of the sex lives of the Clintons.
Frankly, I find this fascination a bit creepy, Prof….
There is a very important evolutionary principle at work in the ACORN situation which I will mention here, along with a promise to henceforth cease posting on this topic (unless some “unexpectedly juicy” new details on the story emerge). As many of the vehement responses here to my posts suggest, this organization is some kind of political sacred cow for liberals, as its mission supported a good cause: helping low income people of color find suitable housing.
The problem with turning any cause or organization into a sacred cow is that once above criticism, an organization can perpetrate tremendous evil under the blanket assurance that anyone who dares criticize, however egregious the acts may be, will summarily be subjected to a metaphorical version of tarring-and-feathering.
I’m a liberal and I hate ACORN. They’re nuts, and the animals who dwell within never fall far from the tree.
I’m a liberal too, and I had to google to find out what ACORN really is. I thought it was something to save the whales or the environment or something. I guess I’m just not a very good liberal.
“…But I suggest those of you in this group should take a look at yourselves in the mirror, and ask, “Isn’t there something just a teensy bit fascinating about a story that suggests…”
“…You can get a black eye from chewing a pretzel!”
Ha…silly Mr. Bear, I had suggested the same thing about Shrub’s story about the blackeyed pretzel
My issues with your characterization of CRA are entirely separate from my opinions of ACORN. I think ACORN is a badly mismanaged organization, and any criminal activity should be dealt with appropriately.
I don’t recall ever defending ACORN here, other than to make snarky comments about how certain posters (not you) seem to find ACORN’s dirty hands in all sorts of matters great and small
You suggested I research the history of ACORN and CRA, and a little bit of casting about on the internet suggests they pretty much grew up together hand-in-hand. This is not to to equate ACORN with CRA, but rather to point out that ACORN used the CRA to pressure lenders into making loans they would not have made based on prudent business considerations.
Does this strike you as controversial?
I will point out that I cannot recall such a vehement reaction on any subject discussed here since back in 2006 when an army of trolls came on the blog to argue that ‘real estate always goes up’ when some of us dared to suggest otherwise.
You suggested I research the history of ACORN and CRA, and a little bit of casting about on the internet suggests they pretty much grew up together hand-in-hand.
No, I suggested researching CRA only. I’ve stayed out of the ACORN contretemps.
It is interesting that ACORN has used CRA as a bludgeon, but not necessarily consequential — I think the organization’s hamhandedness has been relatively well-documented both here and elsewhere. Guess what? ACORN also says prostitutes are performance artists! Somebody give Eliot Spitzer a ring.
I will point out that I cannot recall such a vehement reaction on any subject discussed here since back in 2006 when an army of trolls came on the blog to argue that ‘real estate always goes up’ when some of us dared to suggest otherwise.
Are you suggesting that a cabal of “far-left of left wing posters” here is in fact an army of virtual trolls? Or is it we who are “suggesting otherwise” when faced with the meme you expected to pass unchecked and unchallenged?
I was just commenting on the vehemence of the various responses to my posts, which in many cases took on the nature of personal attacks. I must have hit a nerve in quite a few of you folks by daring to post on a politically incorrect subject. I’m sorry — guess this is not the right blog for those who expect political correctness.
I just have a hard time separating CRA and ACORN, I guess. It seems that ACORN exploited CRA as a means of getting banks to lower their lending standards, and lowered lending standards paved the way for subprime loans to low-income communities. At the end of the day, it looks like the best of intentions led to a terrible outcome for the poor who were supposed to be served by these programs.
“Acorn’s a Creature of the CRA”
Steven Malanga (Manhattan Institute) reports at Real Clear Markets:
The Acorn scandal, in which amateur journalists posing as a prostitute and a pimp went seeking a mortgage for a house of prostitution and received advice on how to evade the law, is a fitting new chapter in the controversial history of the advocacy group.
Acorn found its way into the mortgage business through the Community Reinvestment Act, the 1977 legislation that community groups have used as a cudgel to force lenders to lower their mortgage underwriting standards in order to make more loans in low-income communities. Often the groups, after making protests under CRA, were then rewarded by banks with contracts to act as mortgage counselors in low-income areas in return for dropping their protests against the banks. In one particularly lucrative deal, 14 major banks eager to put CRA protests behind them in 1993 signed an agreement to have Acorn administer a $55 million, 11-city lending program. It was precisely such agreements that helped turn Acorn from a network of small local groups into a national player. …
The collapse of the mortgage market has put a major crimp in these endeavors. The proposed Congressional answer? An expansion of the CRA to nonbanking areas, so as get money flowing again to ACORN and its colleagues — and noncoincidentally, to the urban political machines in which they constitute such a major force.
…
Here is another interesting story, suggesting a symbiotic link between the Fed and ACORN. I find this one highly amusing, as my impression has long been that ACORN has been a major thorn in the Fed’s side over the years.
Fed-ACORN Criminality
by Thomas J. DiLorenzo
…
The Federal Reserve Board has been ACORN’s “partner” in this endeavor ever since 1977, when the Fed was given responsibility (along with the Comptroller of the Currency) for enforcing the CRA. For those who are not yet familiar with the CRA, which was significantly strengthened during the Clinton administration, it works like this: The ostensible purpose of the Act is to get banks to make more mortgage loans in “minority and low-income” neighborhoods. These loans have been defined by the government as “sub-prime” loans, implying that the borrowers have credit ratings just a tiny, tiny smidgen below the “prime” or highest-credit-rating borrowers. This of course is a farce, as nearly everyone now knows. The Fed keeps track of such loans, and gives each lender a CRA ranking. A poor ranking can destroy a bank’s plans for branch expansions, mergers, and other activities.
…
You know PB, I used to have a lot of respect for you. Not so much anymore.
That’s OK. I don’t post here to try to earn people’s respect. I post here to learn and share information.
President Says ACORN Should Be Investigated
But He Plays Down Issue’s Importance
Rep. Darrell Issa said the president’s call for a probe “further legitimizes” what many lawmakers have said.
By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, September 21, 2009
President Obama said in an interview aired Sunday that the community organizing group ACORN should be investigated for offering tax help to a couple posing as a pimp and a prostitute in widely watched videotapes.
But in the interview on ABC’s “This Week,” Obama did not say who should conduct such an investigation and played down the importance of the controversy.
“What I saw on that video was certainly inappropriate and deserves to be investigated,” he said, but he declined to say whether he supported action by Congress to cut off federal funding for the group.
“Frankly, it’s not something I’ve followed closely,” Obama said, adding he had not been aware that ACORN received much federal funding. “This is not the biggest issue facing the country. It’s not something I’m paying a lot of attention to,” he said.
…
“That’s OK. I don’t post here to try to earn people’s respect. I post here to learn and share information.”
Unfortunately, I just don’t believe you anymore.
I believe him.
ACORN is a bloody disaster and indeed appears to be tip of iceberg for greater disasters.
Look forward to seeing many go to jail, but have limited expectation regarding that.
cheers
evildoc
Ditto
I have made no comment on ACORN, a completely separate issue. Personally I view the fact that UBS and others helped billionaires hide from the IRS far more offensive than ACORN figuring a way that prostitutes could move their money into a bank and pay taxes on it. If they claim a job they can’t claim unemployment right.
WASHINGTON – The IRS is extending the Wednesday deadline for international tax dodgers to apply for an amnesty program in order to give a rush of applicants more time to prepare their paperwork.
More than 3,000 Americans hiding assets overseas have applied for the program, which promises no jail time and reduced penalties for tax cheats who come forward, said a government official who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Far more offensive to me and my pocket book. Personally I think prostitution should be legal.
From PB’s article
The ostensible purpose of the Act is to get banks to make more mortgage loans in “minority and low-income” neighborhoods. These loans have been defined by the government as “sub-prime” loans, implying that the borrowers have credit ratings just a tiny, tiny smidgen below the “prime” or highest-credit-rating borrowers
Again PB this is a completely false statement. This alone should make you question your sources. I mean you really believe that subprime loans are defined by the government as loans to minority and low income neighborhoods??? It’s pure BS. Redlining means that even if you have a great FICO score the bank won’t loan to you if you live in a redlined district. The way I read CRA a rich guy like me could take out a CRA loan to build a store or apartments in a redlined district and that would count as helping to meet CRA requirements.
“Redlining means that even if you have a great FICO score the bank won’t loan to you if you live in a redlined district.”
Why would a bank not want to make a loan to someone with a great FICO score? Is it perhaps because the housing values in the redlined district are unstable?
I know a bit about marginal neighborhoods, having grown up in a midwest city subject to neighborhood instability. A close friend had his bicycle stolen shortly before his parents decided to relocate. Another friend saw the value of his home plummet when neighborhood transition brought in a much higher crime rate than when he first moved there. My grandmother’s childhood home showed up in the newspaper one sad Sunday in a photo documenting that it had been torched to the ground, after falling into blight and desuetude.
At any rate, a bank that redlined areas purely on grounds of discrimination would be offering its competitors an opening for profitable lending opportunities.
“Why would a bank not want to make a loan to someone with a great FICO score? Is it perhaps because the housing values in the redlined district are unstable?”
Let’s reinvent the wheel:
“(2) procedural due process rights requiring that certain steps, such as a hearing, be followed before a person’s “life, liberty, or property” can be taken away. The amendment’s Equal Protection Clause requires states to provide equal protection under the law to all people within their jurisdictions.”
Banks ALWAYS provide a wide interpretation of “equal protection” especially banks chartered in SOUTH Carolina. Right?
“…until Brown v. Board of Education (1954) reached the Court. Brown met with a campaign of resistance from white Southerners, and for decades the federal courts attempted to enforce Brown’s mandate against continual attempts at circumvention.”
Please can someone define how a bank can utilize: “circumvention”?
“…a bank that redlined areas purely on grounds of discrimination would be offering its competitors an opening for profitable lending opportunities.”
Oh yes, the Messiah bank will step right around/over/through Multicultural Management MegaBank Inc… whose cultural descendants are not from the anthropological root of Africa. No worries mate. I kinda like that “Cult” is the beginning of Cultural and that you can not find even a “snippet” of mitochondrial DNA in their ancestors.
Yes Professor
George Bush was the Greatest President in creating underground jobs
so it would seem what Acorn did fit this plan quite well.
Yes, it’s waaay more interesting than, say, corruption on police forces or in banking…which of course gets no federal money whatsoever.
Well, this is the big weekend for the Bozeman, Montana Parade of Homes, when builders show off their biggest boondoggles.
For the past 9 years, an older funky and modest neighborhood on the northeast side of town has been having the Parade of Shacks. It begins with a crazy hippy type parade, then everyone can go around and visit each other’s shacks or garages and have wine tastings, pancake cookouts, etc.
I didn’t go, a friend who lives in the neighborhood told me about it, but I did see one of the parade entires, an old car with a huge papermache chicken on top celebrating the new law allowing chickens. Proves there are still a few sane Americans left…
entires=entrees
entries, surely
that’s what happens when you make fun of other people’s spelling, as I did the other day to wmbz (or however he spells his/her name)
On Friday, I was walking with my toddler when a car pulled up to a house down the street and the driver asked if I knew the folk who lived there. “They moved out two months ago,” I said, and he looked relieved and said, “So it *is* vacant.”
He was from the bank, there to change a lock and do a quick check of the property. It was in pre-foreclosure. No big surprise to anyone on the street. This guy was driving around securing houses– like Ben?– and starting the process. I think he mentioned that he had fifteen or twenty properties to do that day.
The foreclosure moratorium in California ended on September 15th. Last week, then, marked the beginning of the next wave of foreclosures, which were kicked down the road to a time of year when there’s traditionally fewer sales! Brilliant strategy.
Some people saw the writing on the wall, like the former neighbors. They may well have gotten a new loan for a new place while there was a guarantee of no black mark on their record.
Incidentally, they paid $390,000 for the 3/2, more than twice what we paid for our larger house on a larger lot. Craziness.
B, could you let us know when you and the former neighbors bought the respective houses?
Foreclosures in Simi nearly double since November
By Anna Bakalis (Contact)
Thursday, September 17, 2009
The number of Simi Valley homes now in foreclosure has almost doubled since November — from 595 to 1,041.
City Manager Mike Sedell said it’s a cautionary figure, but not enough to panic.
“Anytime there is an increase, there is some concern,” Sedell said.
…
According to RealtyTrac, 3,704 single-family Fresno County homes are listed as being owned by the banks. My experience from birddogging some of this the past 18 month is that RealtyTrac is good but collapses a bit when following the disposition of properties. Perhaps one of three REO homes I look at may have been sold to a third party. So let’s take away at least a third of those RealtyTrac listings. Shoot, let’s estimate, based on their public-information data base, that the real number of REOs is 2,400. Or, play devil’s advocate, take down to 1,800. That does not include vacant lots or condos.
As of Sunday night, by comparison, the Fresno realt0r MLS declared that 373 (373) bank-owned SF homes were there to be snapped up.
More later, I am pretty disgusted.
I am disgusted mosty because shocking amounts of public money are supporting private enterprise, with one net result being that our tax money is artificially supporting the price of what often is someone’s biggest lifetime expense.
.. who says there’s no great deals in San Francisco..
$165K .. and it’s on Nob Hill.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/rvs/1384227868.html
The picture was taken at my favorite national park Yosemite.
I would love to see the stained front window: picture of Lake Tahoe.
$30 billion home loan time bomb set for 2010
Thousands of Bay Area homes have a ticking time bomb embedded in their mortgage. The homes were purchased with loans known as option ARMs, short for adjustable rate mortgages.
Next year, many option ARM payments will begin to readjust, slamming borrowers with dramatically higher monthly mortgage bills. Analysts say that could unleash the next big wave of foreclosures - and home-loan data show that the risky loans were heavily used in the Bay Area.
From 2004 to 2008, “one in five people who took out a mortgage loan (for both purchases and refinancing) in the San Francisco metropolitan region (San Francisco, Alameda, Contra Costa, Marin and San Mateo counties) got an option ARM,” said Bob Visini, senior director of marketing in San Francisco at First American CoreLogic, a mortgage research firm. “That’s more than twice the national average.
For the rest of the story click on the link: http://tinyurl.com/n2l8mj
Ah insurance companies
ST. LOUIS – St. Louis is perking up with jokes about the $200,000 cup of coffee. But officials at a college and its insurance company aren’t laughing.
St. Louis Community College at Forest Park must foot the bill after a coffee maker rigged to a faucet and left on in a photo lab led to a ruptured water line in July. About 10,000 gallons of water spilled down four floors, damaging ceilings, walls, computers and files.
So the bottom line is if any employee does anything stupid, and I’d rank leaving the coffee pot on minor in that department the insurance company won’t pay.
F them.
Meltdown jolts consumers from financial fairyland
The stock market bounced back, just as it has for nearly three decades. It just doesn’t feel that way.
Last year’s financial meltdown knocked the swagger out of Americans’ views toward investing. The baby boomers who forged the Reagan bull market; survived the 1987 crash; bought Amazon.com at $2 a share and sold at $100; brushed off the collapse of the dot-com bubble and kept plowing money into their 401(k)s are reassessing what they once believed.
It’s hard, after all, to keep the faith in buy-and-hold after the market crashed harder than at any time since the Great Depression. It’s hard to trust your financial adviser after Bernard Madoff stole billions from his clients. Most of all, it’s hard for a generation that equated personal finance with investing in stocks to accept that the rules have changed.
People are still investing. The Standard & Poor’s 500 index is up 58 percent since hitting a 12-year low on March 9. 401(k) participation rates have held steady.
But financial planners around the country say there is a sense that people are returning to basic principles that were shunted aside: Maximize your savings; limit your use of credit cards; keep a substantial emergency fund; know how much risk you can tolerate; diversify your investments; don’t try to short-cut your way to wealth.
For the rest of the story click on the link: http://tinyurl.com/m9wpjk
Sept. 21 (Bloomberg) — International investors are increasing purchases of Treasuries on a bet U.S. inflation will remain subdued, even as the dollar falls to the lowest levels of the year and the budget deficit tops $1 trillion.
Investors outside the U.S. bought 43.1 percent of the $1.41 trillion of notes and bonds sold by the Treasury Department this year, compared with 27.1 percent of the $527 billion issued at this point in 2008, government figures show. The Merrill Lynch & Co. Treasury Master Index of U.S. securities returned 1.18 percent in the third quarter after the worst first half on record as demand from the investor group that includes central banks climbed to record levels at Treasury auctions
Yep yell sell when your buying and yell buy when you’re selling.