September 21, 2009

Bits Bucket For September 21, 2009

Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum.




RSS feed | Trackback URI

425 Comments »

Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 05:25:43

Housing Suffering Relapse Confronts Bernanke Credit Conundrum.

Sept. 21 (Bloomberg) — The recovering housing market may be heading for a relapse as President Barack Obama and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke consider ending support for the source of the global financial crisis.

The Obama administration is studying whether to let a first-time home buyers’ tax credit expire as scheduled at the end of November. Bernanke and his Fed colleagues may continue talking this week about how to wind down purchases of mortgage- backed securities, according to Peter Hooper, chief economist at Deutsche Bank Securities Inc. in New York. The two programs have helped stabilize real-estate demand, with new-house sales rising 9.6 percent in July from the prior month, the most since 2005.

Ending these efforts may stifle the housing rebound by depressing sales and pushing up both mortgage-backed bond yields and interest rates on home loans, even in the face of the record-low zero to 0.25 percent short-term rates the Fed has engineered, said economist Thomas Lawler. A weaker housing market would likely dampen the economic recovery and undercut shares of builders including Fort Worth, Texas-based D.R. Horton Inc. and Miami-based Lennar Corp., that have risen 40 percent this year, based on the Standard and Poor’s Supercomposite Homebuilding Index of 12 companies.

“Things could get ugly,” said Lawler, an independent consultant in Leesburg, Virginia, who spent 22 years at Fannie Mae, a Washington, D.C.-based government-controlled mortgage- finance company. “We could be facing a triple whammy at the end of the year: the expiration of the tax credit, the end of the Fed mortgage-buying program and rising foreclosures.”

Major Test

This is the first major test of policy makers’ ability to coordinate exit strategies as they seek to wean the economy off government support, said Brian Bethune, chief financial economist of IHS Global Insight, a forecasting company in Lexington, Massachusetts.

They have already acted separately, with the administration ending its $3 billion “cash-for-clunkers” automobile trade-in program on Aug. 24 and the Fed starting to wind down its purchases of Treasury debt, which totaled $285.2 billion between March 25, when the initiative began, and Sept. 16.

The 55-year-old Bernanke and his colleagues, who meet tomorrow and Wednesday to map monetary strategy, discussed “tapering” off the Fed’s purchases of mortgage-backed securities and housing-agency debt at their last gathering in August, according to the minutes of that meeting. No decision was made by the central bank’s policy-making Federal Open Market Committee.

Comment by measton
2009-09-21 06:56:49

Ending these efforts may stifle the housing rebound by depressing sales and pushing up both mortgage-backed bond yields and interest rates on home loans

?????
How would dropping the 8k credit drive up interest rates on home loan? If anything it would help keep them in check by lowering the falsely elevated demand and decreasing the rate of national debt ( A blip I know).

Comment by Austin_Martin
2009-09-21 08:38:15

The interest rates would be pushed up by the end of the Quantitative Easing by the fed. The 8k credit ending would push down sales at the same time. That’s what they are saying.

 
 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 08:12:11

The two programs have helped stabilize reinflate artificial real-estate demand, with new-house sales rising 9.6 percent in July from the prior month, the most since 2005.

Ending these efforts may stifle the housing rebound allow the housing market to return to normal equilibrium by depressing sales allowing sales to return to proper supply/demand levels and pushing up both mortgage-backed bond yields and interest rates on home loans, even in the face of the record-low zero to 0.25 percent short-term rates the Fed has engineered, said economist Thomas Lawler. allowing bond yields and interest rates to return to proper risk-premium levels.

Fixed that for them.

Comment by polly
2009-09-21 09:31:23

Wow. That required a redaction, not just an edit.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 11:53:45

On this I can totally agree, packman.

Although it makes me wonder just how bad it really is. Is it so bad that not propping up and bracing the system would be catastrophic or are our “leader” so corrupt this is their master all along or is it some combination of both?

No matter the exact answer, it doesn’t look good. And their hypocrisy is stunning.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 12:14:21

Ventriloquist, speaking through his puppet’s mouth:

“I’m a real boy.”

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by CA renter
2009-09-22 01:05:54

Excellent editing skills, packman! :)

Agree 100%.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 12:11:19

Where does monetary policy end and executive branch power begin these days? The line is very, very blurry.

The Obama administration is studying whether to let a first-time home buyers’ tax credit expire as scheduled at the end of November. Bernanke and his Fed colleagues may continue talking this week about how to wind down purchases of mortgage- backed securities, according to Peter Hooper, chief economist at Deutsche Bank Securities Inc. in New York. The two programs have helped stabilize real-estate demand, with new-house sales rising 9.6 percent in July from the prior month, the most since 2005.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 05:36:22

Obama wants G20 to rethink global economy.

WASHINGTON/BERLIN (Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama said on Sunday he would push world leaders this week for a reshaping of the global economy in response to the deepest financial crisis in decades.

In Europe, officials kept up pressure for a deal to curb bankers’ pay and bonuses at a two-day summit of leaders from the Group of 20 countries, which begins on Thursday.

The summit will be held in the former steelmaking center of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, marking the third time in less than a year that leaders of countries accounting for about 85 percent of the world economy will have met to coordinate their responses to the crisis.

The United States is proposing a broad new economic framework that it hopes the G20 will adopt, according to a letter by a top White House adviser.

Obama said the U.S. economy was recovering, even if unemployment remained high, and now was the time to rebalance the global economy after decades of U.S. over-consumption.

“We can’t go back to the era where the Chinese or the Germans or other countries just are selling everything to us, we’re taking out a bunch of credit card debt or home equity loans, but we’re not selling anything to them,” Obama said in an interview with CNN television.

For years before the financial crisis erupted in 2007, economists had warned of the dangers of imbalances in the global economy — namely huge trade surpluses and currency reserves built up by exporters like China, and similarly big deficits in the United States and other economies.

With U.S. consumers now holding back on spending after house prices plunged and as unemployment climbs, Washington wants other countries to become engines of growth.

“That’s part of what the G20 meeting in Pittsburgh is going to be about, making sure that there’s a more balanced economy,” Obama told CNN.

China has long been the target of calls from the West to get its massive population to spend more. It may be reluctant to offer a significant change in economic policy when Chinese President Hu Jintao meets Obama this week.

Comment by palmetto
2009-09-21 06:21:06

I get the idea that Obama is something of a non-entity to some of these other countries, especially China, no matter how much he may have formerly been hailed in Europe, prior to the election. I think he’s viewed as “a nice guy, but ineffectual”.

I don’t understand the “think” behind having this “stummick” in Pittsburgh. Is he playing the sympathy card, or does he deliberately want to present the US as a sad-sack, hollowed-out state?

Comment by palmetto
2009-09-21 06:29:29

Heck, why not turn it into a traveling summit show? Take it on the road! Detroit, Akron, and for an extra little flourish, maybe a stop somewhere in West Virgina, where they could serve some water bottled from the wells contaminated by the coal mining and processing.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-09-21 08:39:58

I don’t understand the “think” behind having this “stummick” in Pittsburgh. Is he playing the sympathy card, or does he deliberately want to present the US as a sad-sack, hollowed-out state?

Are you saying Pittsburgh presents a dreary backdrop?

I think of the modern-day Pittsburgh as fairly good-looking and vigorous — in contrast to many Rust Belt cities, Pittsburgh has done pretty well for itself in its post-industrial incarnation. (Are there any Pittsburghers ’round the HBB these days?)

Former Big Steel town Gary, IN, on the other hand … that’s a pretty good definition of sad sack and hollowed out.

Comment by samk
2009-09-21 09:03:39

I’m from near Pittsburgh. Greater Pittsburgh is not a terrible place. Sure, there are areas that are struggling, but I don’t think anyone would mistake modern Pittsburgh for “Hell with the lid off”. The main thing Pittsburgh has going against it is that it is so small. That’s why I was surprised that the G-20 is being held there.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-09-21 09:28:33

I was born in Pittsburgh, lived the first six years of my life south of the city, then returned there as an adult. My adulthood in Pittsburgh was depressing, to say the least. A big reason was the local economy during the mid-1980s. Jobs for young, energetic college grads like Yours Truly were few and far between.

So, after five years of unemployment that finally ended, but led to a series of go-nowhere jobs,I left. It’s a decision that pains me to this day.

When it comes to hearing about Pittsburgh’s remaking itself, no one is happier than me. Too bad it didn’t happen sooner. Pittsburgh lost an entire generation of young people who could have contributed to its vitality.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by jfp
2009-09-21 09:49:04

As someone living there now, I think the basic story about why we got it was that no one else wanted it with all of the crazy protesters that come along for the ride.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Michael Viking
2009-09-21 07:10:12

China has long been the target of calls from the West to get its massive population to spend more.

This is what it’s about folks: You’ve got to get out there and spend more! Consume! Consume! Turn those machines back on!

Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-09-21 07:49:33

Finally some talk about trade balances . Knowing our Country, we will say pretty please and ask for voluntary compliance ,and we won’t get compliance ,and than we will say “pretty please “,again . Than we will get accused of being protective .

I remember when I was a kid I use to read about Japan jacking up the price of the United States imports to assure that their population didn’t buy to much of our imports . Controlled economies dealing with non-controlled economies . The United States outsourcing jobs as well as creating jobs World-wide while our people go into debt .This was a great game plan ,wonder who thought of it . Well ,the rest of the World use to like to send imports and money into the American system ,and who did it enrich is the question ? What did buying cheap goods at WalMart do for our Country ?

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-09-21 08:07:13

“What did buying cheap goods at WalMart do for our Country ?”

Not much, but it did make some recent presidentS look good - made it look like the prosperity was endless - for a few years anyway.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Neil
2009-09-21 08:20:51

I’m not anti-Walmart at all. They are an efficient distributor that works in purely mass market items.

But I am 100% in agreement that we cannot let China ‘protect’ its ‘infant industries’ while dumping their goods here. I’m afraid of a trade war, but we have to raise tariffs against China.

If you look at the ‘laws’ passed at the WTO over the last ~18 months, there is a trend to allowing ‘green Tariffs.’ Since China consumes the most energy to produce a product… they’ll be hit hardest.

I also expect a drive fighting ‘flags of convienience’ for shipping. The US merchant marine is getting hard hit in this downturn. I expect a push for more true flagging of vessels. (With the required inspections, etc.)

This could be done well… It could be a Smoot-Hawley. Unfortunately, interesting times ahead.

Got Popcorn?
Neil

 
Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 08:53:48

drive fighting ‘flags of convienience’ for shipping ??

Please explain Neil…Not sure what you mean…

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-09-21 08:58:41

If you look at the ‘laws’ passed at the WTO over the last ~18 months, there is a trend to allowing ‘green Tariffs.’ Since China consumes the most energy to produce a product… they’ll be hit hardest.

An interesting loophole in tariff restrictions — one that would benefit the EU, Canada, and Scandinavia even more than us.

Any idea what China’s response to this trend has been?

 
Comment by DD
2009-09-21 09:19:18

“works in purely mass market items.”
Walmart takes over all items, squeezing out other biz and that is what they do. Their recent/current push is to do just that, get rid of ALL competition for just about any product.

And that alone is not good for our economy, our jobs, our country. Monopolization from a giant behemoth. Redundant, but true.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 09:31:17

If you look at the ‘laws’ passed at the WTO over the last ~18 months, there is a trend to allowing ‘green Tariffs.’ Since China consumes the most energy to produce a product… they’ll be hit hardest.

That assumes that the tariffs are equally weighted. If it’s anything like Kyoto protocol for instance - they very much are not. “Developing nations” (like China and India) would pay less, with nations like the U.S. still footing the bill.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 12:01:08

Neil, while China does practice very heavy protectionism, remember that it’s OUR corporations that are “dumping” their goods on our markets.

 
Comment by Kim
2009-09-21 12:15:47

“drive fighting ‘flags of convienience’ for shipping”
“Please explain Neil…Not sure what you mean…”

Flying flags of convenience means you are (basically) a US shipper, but you register your ships (sometimes your corporation) in other countries to avoid paying US taxes and US wages to crew members.

Cruise ships are also notorious for this. Almost every ship in and out of Ft. Lauderdale and other popular ports are registered in much smaller foreign countries. The lines pay a couple dollars a day to their housekeeping and waitstaff. Most of the crew’s earnings comes from tips that passengers pay them at the end of the voyage. They might work ten months straight with very few or even no days off because they are not subject to US labor laws.

 
 
Comment by shizo
2009-09-21 11:18:50

It produced craigslist.org! Get your cheap plastic sh!t even CHEAPER than Wally-World and you don’t even have to pay taxes!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-09-21 08:09:19

But the Chinese are being told to buy more by their government. Buy PMs that is, but that’s probably not what our boyz have in mind, huh?

Comment by Michael Viking
2009-09-21 08:57:04

Right, it’s certainly not what our boyz have in mind. Is China’s plan is ingenious? or risky? Both? From what I understand they need to keep their populace happy. If their government advises the citizens to buy gold and the populace does and gold goes up: the people will be happy. What if gold tanks and people have followed this advice?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by fecaltime!
2009-09-21 07:16:55

Seems to me Obama is saying the right things here:

“We can’t go back to the era where the Chinese or the Germans or other countries just are selling everything to us, we’re taking out a bunch of credit card debt or home equity loans, but we’re not selling anything to them,” Obama said in an interview with CNN television.”"

I don’t know what will come of it, but I agree with what Obama is saying in this instance.

Fecaltime!

Comment by shizo
2009-09-21 11:21:08

It is hard to export tattoos. Or body piercing. :)

Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-09-21 11:49:35

I’m all for freedom of expression, but I do wonder where all of these people work. Having a body full of tattoos, and a face full of metal has to be a hindrance to finding a job. What do these people do?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by shizo
2009-09-21 14:02:18

I’m OK w/ it, too. Makes life that much easier for me in the long run because most employers frown on that lifestyle. I used to be a lampworker and you only need one guess as to what my old job entailed. I was always “the cop” before I explained who I was and what I did for a living when I went out w/ friends. Never found anything “so cool” that I had to post it on my self til it’s time for a 6ft dirt nap.

Speaking of which- I passed the line to get into the ICP (Insane Clown Posse) concert last night… dang- it looked like the gates of hell were opened and the froth spewed forth onto the sidewalk for 2 city blocks. I bet there was maybe 10 out of 1000 that were employed in the traditional sense. Then again, the “other” market pays cash and pays well.

 
 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2009-09-21 07:25:39

“We can’t go back to the era where the Chinese or the Germans or other countries just are selling everything to us, we’re taking out a bunch of credit card debt or home equity loans, but we’re not selling anything to them,” Obama said in an interview with CNN television.”

This is the money quote and it shows Mr. O understands the problem. We send them pieces of paper and they send us products. It’s a delusional system. They should expect and want us to send them products in return. That way everyone’s standard of living improves.

Comment by palmetto
2009-09-21 09:06:19

“They should expect and want us to send them products in return.”

A return to the barter system, maybe?

You’ve got a point. China moans about our pieces of paper, so indeed why not send them products? Of much the same nature as the products they send us.

Comment by oxide
2009-09-21 10:18:13

barter system… I used to think that Saddam Hussein’s “Food for Oil” program was exactly that. I envisioned that a USA or European oil tanker with foodstuffs and meds on the deck and an empty hull pulls into Basra. USA/Europe unloads foodstuffs into Iraq, and the Iraqis pump crude oil into the tank. Oil tanker and Basra are both happy. Simple as that, only with a little shift in amounts depending on the price of oil and rice.

Then it was found that Kofi Annan’s son was involved in some sort of corruption with the program admin at some entity in Switzerland. I thought, wth do we need those middlemen to run this? And in Switzerland? Any farmer or oil exec could do this on a pocket calculator. Heh, I was so naive.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 09:28:26

It’s not that simple.

By that same logic - someone who hires a lawn service to cut their lawn should not pay them with money, but with services. So if this someone with the lawn is say a software engineer - they should pay their lawn person with some software code instead?

In other words - mutual benefit of trade exchange does very much not have to assume that each side in a two-way trade provides a balanced amount of services vs. currency. Such an assumption ignores the effects of third, fourth, etc. parties who play the role of balancing. In this case of course the other parties are other countries.

That being said - the principle does apply on a per-entity basis, i.e. our trade deficit with all nations sum total. This ends up being goods and services that we owe - i.e. the amount we’re in debt to other countries. In the case of China - would just as easily pay them money still - primarily in the form of paying off our treasury debt. We would need to get that money from somewhere though - but it could be by selling our goods and services to some other third-party country like say Canada, Japan, or wherever.

Comment by Jon
2009-09-21 12:50:01

The way it is supposed to work in a free market system is that the currency of a country with cronic trade deficits would lose relative value to the rest of the world because there would be an oversupply. However, world trade is not done in a free market. So we lose industry.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by rentor
2009-09-21 15:10:01

How about India running huge surpluses with USA. US corps. have to buy Rupees to pay outsourced workers in India. Guess what Rupee seems to get weaker and outsourcers thrive.

I say fix currency with Indian at lets say 30 instead of it floating around 50 rupees to a dollar.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 05:43:23

ITEM: Tucked away in an $87 billion higher education bill that passed the House last week was a broad new federal initiative aimed not at benefiting college students, but at raising quality in the early learning and care programs that serve children from birth through age 5.

The initiative, the Early Learning Challenge Fund, would channel $8 billion over eight years to states with plans to improve standards, training and oversight of programs serving infants, toddlers and preschoolers.
< An additional $1 billion per year to beef up government supervision of kids from birth through age 5!! How long before the tots will go straight from the womb to the loving arms of state caregivers far better trained to deal with infants and small children than actual parents?

This is a make-work scheme for the surplus of people who want to make their living in the field of advanced baby-sitting.

Comment by Al
2009-09-21 06:31:18

There is a program called Early Years in Ontario Canada. Parents or other caregivers can take kids up to six years of age, and pretty much just play around in a semi-structured environment. The parent remains responsible for the kids. It’s a good way to get kids interacting with others, it gives a chance for parents to chat and exchange ideas, and provides a good venue for transmission of communicable diseases. There’s nothing particularly ‘big brotherish’ about it. Good bang for the buck? I haven’t dug deep enough into it to have an opinion.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 07:09:18

A lot of these kids grow up in houses where Cheetos and soda are breakfast and lunch, cultural activities are whatever crap mom’s watching on TV, and most adult role models are anything but. To get these kids at an early age into an environment where they get nutritional food and interaction with adults who speak in full sentences is great bang for the buck. If you wait until they’re five or six it’s almost too late.

Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-09-21 08:38:11

Parents can’t handle raising their kids! Government to the rescue!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 09:08:04

Parents can’t handle raising their kids!

Some parents really can’t. How have you escaped noticing this fact?
And until such time as these parents can be forcibly sterilized—and I would be very first in line to volunteer to perform such operations, using a handy butter knife and/or ice-cream scooper—until that lovely, lovely time, you’ve got innocent kids who are born to utter and complete wastes of oxygen, or worse. Someone’s got to do something.

Tell, me—do you often volunteer in youth organizations, Boys and Girls Club, Girl or Boy scouts, things like that? Hmmm?

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 09:55:22

The reason I feel so strongly about this is that I’m the oldest of 8 kids. My parents were devout Mormons who certainly took the whole ‘multiply and replenish the earth’ thing verrrrry seriously.
Unfortunately, there isn’t a scripture that follows that up with “And once you’ve multiplied, assuming you even are fit to multiply, then take good care of what results…”
They were not good parents*. My mom meant well, bless her little pea-brained useless self, but her life-strategy when confronted by kids with no winter shoes, or kids who didn’t have enough to eat, or to really bad things happening? Her response was to pray to Baby Jeebus to fix it. It turns out this is not a super-effective life-strategy.
Who knew?

Man, a little food and a feeling of safety and security would have gone a long way for me and my sisters and brothers.

*I shall leave it at that.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 09:57:05

That’s why I approve of WIC. Most govt. handout programs really and truly p*ss me off, but WIC has only approved foods you can buy, and they’re healthy foods, so maybe the kiddies will get some good nutrition into them, just by accident.

 
Comment by oxide
2009-09-21 10:22:14

I saw a study somewhere that their IQ is still developing in their early years. If they are born into lives of neglect or stress, their IQ does not fully develop. This alone is reason to help kids out. You may complain that people are dumb or lazy, but what if it wasn’t their fault?

 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-09-21 10:32:50

Miss Olympiagal, it sounds like you went through a lot growing up. My background is similar in some regards and different in others so I relate with your story. I think it’s fair to say that no matter what hardships you have faced the HBBers (with one exception) are sure glad the way you turned out. You still make me laugh on a regular basis. I will drink a Jack Daniels in your honor to prove how much I enjoy seeing your comments.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 12:16:34

“I will drink a Jack Daniels in your honor to prove how much I enjoy seeing your comments.”

And I will drink a cup of joe in your honor to celebrate your successful escape from the LDS General Authorities’ edicts.

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-09-21 13:55:29

Olygal,
Long handled pruning shears work quite well. ;)

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 16:00:10

—I will drink a Jack Daniels in your honor to prove how much I enjoy seeing your comments.
—And I will drink a cup of joe in your honor to celebrate your successful escape from the LDS General Authorities’ edicts.

NYCity and PB—and in a token of my sincere and returned appreciation I’m going to do the same, in YOUR honor.
But IIII’m going to multi-task, in order to be more efficient. (tomorrow’s my birthday and I’ve been feeling I should be more efficient. )

Therefore I’m going to toast you both at once!

* boldly pours entire flask contents into mug of cold coffee *
**quaffs contents grandly in NYCityboy’s and Professor Bear’s honor **
*** barfs all over wooden desk ***

Dangit.
Okay, I’ll try again in a minute.

:lol:

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 17:25:56

Try it with a real bourbon- from Kentucky. Not some Tennessee sour mash.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-09-21 18:49:45

Try it with a real bourbon- from Kentucky. Not some Tennessee sour mash.

Hear, hear, hear!

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 18:54:45

Try it with a real bourbon- from Kentucky. Not some Tennessee sour mash.

My stomach isn’t used to that good stuff. I’d barf even more.
Baby steps, man. Baby steps…

When I first met “sleepless_near_seattle” he mentioned he enjoyed ‘Maker’s Mark’. And I said, ‘Whassat? Your belly-button? Or else did Sweet Baby Jeebus put His thumbprint on your forehead?’
These are valid things to ask, right? ‘Maker’s Mark’ being a significant sort of title. I really and truly didn’t know.
Anyway, I said something or other of the sort, which he was gracious enough to pretend he didn’t hear. (Thank you, ’sleepless’, for ignoring my ignorance.)
…oh, yeah, and THEN he wouldn’t share my tater-tots
But I digress.

What the freak was my point?!

Oh, wait, now I recall my point! It is: I don’t know about good liquor.
But I’m sure I’ll learn one of these days.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 19:13:41

*barfy *

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-09-21 19:28:44

Kirk (discussing Spock’s odd behaviour): “He was in Berkeley…he did a little too much LDS.” :lol:

 
 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 08:45:11

Testify, slothy.
Took the words right out of my coffee-gulping mouth. There’s LOTS of wastes of tax dollars, but something that gives structure, nutrition, and just a bit of security to the lives of little kids who couldn’t help being born to loser a*shats, is, as you say, ‘great bang for the buck’.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 12:11:38

A brutal truth that our country refuses to address and why we will continue to be the murder and criminal prisoner capital of the world.

I often have to remind social Darwinists that they really, really don’t want “survival of the fittest”.

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-09-22 01:23:52

I have tried to explain this to people as well, eco. One has to wonder what all the “libertarian capitalists” think will happen when the poor people are left sick and starving. Do they really believe they’ll just quietly lie down and die?

 
 
Comment by lavi d
2009-09-21 08:51:36

If you wait until they’re five or six it’s almost too late.

They turn feral.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 09:41:47

They’re already malnourished and years behind their peers in mental development. It costs way more to try to fix these problems than to prevent them. And yes, some do become feral. We pay for them for their whole lives, usually housing them in a prison.

 
Comment by Sleepr Cell
2009-09-21 10:20:50

“They turn feral.”

I can certainly testify to THAT. I see it every day here in Baltimore and I’m in one of the “nice” neighborhoods. People often ask me if Baltimore is really as bad as what’s portrayed in “The Wire”. My answer?, Not where I live, no but in many areas yes. It’s that bad and worse.

 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-09-21 12:03:01

My cousin had his wedding reception in downtown Baltimore at a place they called the World Trade Center. It ran into the wee hours of the morning and, as the last of us were leaving, the streets looked like a who’s who of robbers, pimps, and drug addicts. It was unbelievable.

 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-09-21 12:05:49

Another cousin still lives in downtown Baltimore. She loves it, even after being robbed of her purse and thrown down on the sidewalk right in front of her rented row house.

 
Comment by Kim
2009-09-21 12:29:44

“If you wait until they’re five or six it’s almost too late.”

I spoke with a mother who recently began volunteering to assist her daughter’s kindergarten teacher once a week. She considers her town to be a decent place with decent schools, but got the shock of her life when she found many of her daughter’s peers didn’t recognize the numbers 0-10. These were not ESL kids (they’re in their own class).

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 15:17:33

These were not ESL kids (they’re in their own class).

ESL, ESL…Sigh.
(By the way, that’s ‘English Second Language’, for the rest of you.)

I see no point in ESL. None.

The little kids pick up English like it was a tasty taco, with complete ease and flair. I once volunteered for an ESL program because at the time I spoke fluent Spanish (I’m pretty rusty at the moment.)
But the bigger ESL ones? Wow.
I got assigned to help the more grown-up ones. Man, there’s like some sort of ‘on/off’ switch. I don’t know when it comes into play. Maybe when they turn 10 and everyone grows a mustache.
The little kids were as quick and bright and joyous as you please, like dragonflies,( ‘como una libélula.)
But the ones I ended up with were these giant lumps of sullen female flesh who could only mutter ‘Si?’ and ‘Huh?’ and every single one of them was pregnant around the clock. I volunteered for 6 months and I swear, one of them managed to produce 2 or 3 new children in that half a year. Possibly she had access to some sort of space/time warp uterus mechanism, because I can come up with no other explanation.

Now, If they weren’t giant sullen female lumps with 7 little children darting around them, then they were small, sinewy sullen male lumps, who did not even bother to mutter ‘Si?’ and ‘Huh?’ but would only sit there and gaze with burning eyes at the well-meaning blonde gringa, and wiggle their eyebrows meaningfully, and then try to follow me home on their bicycle.

….It was a spirit-breaker, is what I’m saying. Nobody learned to read anything.
And I don’t care if any of you rebuke me for my uncharitable and negative attitude. YOU go volunteer for an ESL program, and then let’s hear your moralizing pedagoguery.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 16:12:44

Or maybe:
“pedagogo de moralizante”

Wow. Amazing how it all comes back when one concentrates, huh?

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-09-21 18:28:06

Well Oly:

This is the MORON GENERATION……what else do you expect?

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 18:49:38

Hay una lengua nueva en su taco. :wink:

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 19:16:58

Aiii? Aiiii!
Like I say: Amazing how it all comes back when one concentrates, huh?
;)

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-09-21 19:32:08

Dunkel ist das Leben: ist der Tod! :eek:

 
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 08:18:11

There’s nothing particularly ‘big brotherish’ about it.

Got two questions for you before I believe you -

- Is it funded, in whole or part, by the government?

- Does the government have a say in who gets the funding, based upon some criteria that is managed by them?

If the answer to those is “yes” - then yes, it is big-brotherish.

Comment by Al
2009-09-21 08:58:26

My big-brother comment was in response to:

“How long before the tots will go straight from the womb to the loving arms of state caregivers far better trained to deal with infants and small children than actual parents?”

People can choose to go or not, and choose which locations to use. Parents stay responsible for their kids. I don’t see this particular program as intrusive into the way people raise their kids, which is what I mean by big-brotherish.

Early years is government (provincial) funded, run by the Ministry of Children and Youth Services. Funding doesn’t go to private sector companies. This isn’t particularly different from a Public School system.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by rearden
2009-09-21 09:29:36

Can people choose whether or not to pay? If not, it is defacto big government at the barrel of a gun.

 
Comment by Al
2009-09-21 09:40:19

“If not, it is defacto big government at the barrel of a gun.”

Yes, I know, Government BAD. No need to analyse programs for their individual merit.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 09:40:57

Funding doesn’t go to private sector companies.

Including private schools - right?

That’s my point. One way of being big-brotherish is to not necessarily make something the government considers “bad” illegal, but to make it very difficult, by making it prohibitively expensive. Private schools are a great example. Anyone who wants to send their kid to a private school must double-pay, since they already pay for public schools via taxes. Unless there is a 100%-refund voucher system in Canada?

So the government gets to rule the education of the vast majority of kids by providing the “public option”, and forcing everyone to pay for it, whether or not they are participating in it. They don’t make the non-public-option illegal, just very undesirable from a financial standpoint, for all but the rich.

Sound familiar, BTW?

 
Comment by Jon
2009-09-21 10:20:08

My kids go to private school. Costs about $400/mo for 10 months/year. Public school costs about $90/mo on top of that for taxes. Grown-ups have to make choices with their money & their kids. $90/mo. is chump change when people are spending $1500/mo on a stupid house.

 
Comment by Martin Gale
2009-09-21 10:21:11

OK, packman, but taking your analogy between health insurance and education further, would you prefer a system in which only kids whose families could afford private schools receive any schooling at all? Because that’s the equivalent of the situation we’re headed into with health insurance. Sure, that situation would work out well financially for people of considerable means, at least in the short term, but is it better for the country as a whole?

And why does any government involvement in any endeavor = “big brotherish”? I don’t think of the interstate highway system, for example, as particularly big brotherish. Or the National Institutes of Health. Or the FAA. Or FEMA. Can you blame me for being a little skeptical of the proposition that private industry can always regulate itself effectively — especially considering what transpired in the banking industry the past couple of years?

 
Comment by Al
2009-09-21 10:53:35

Including private schools - right?

The Early Years program in particular isn’t equivalent to a private school, so isn’t in competition. As I mentioned, parents/caregivers retain responsibility for their kids unlike at a school. I doubt many businesses would fourish on a “pay to look after your kids here” model. As Anon in DC pointed out, it’s pretty much play dates, though with some extra benefits.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 10:55:53

Not saying the government in general shouldn’t be involved in lots of things. Certain things, primarily some parts of infrastructure, simply aren’t feasibly done in many cases in the private sector and/or at the local level. FAA is a good example. FEMA is not. NIH is not.

I generally don’t have a problem with public education, but:

A. The federal government should have no hand in it.
B. A voucher system should exist such that a private education could be gotten without having to pay practically 100% extra.

In general government should only be involved where absolutely necessary, and decentralized to state and local governments whenever feasible.

Regarding the banking industry and the current problems - if you think that’s truly “private” then you haven’t been paying attention.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 11:06:18

Public school costs about $90/mo on top of that for taxes.

Um…. no. You’d have to give me a link to an official budget for me to believe that.

I live in an affluent area, but here it’s just over $1,000 per month per pupil (spread out across 12 months). $12,153 for FY10 to be exact. Pretty much everywhere in the country is in the range of $5k - $12k per pupil, with most in the upper half of that. $1k per year is not remotely feasible anywhere in the U.S.

 
Comment by Martin Gale
2009-09-21 11:40:36

“Regarding the banking industry and the current problems - if you think that’s truly ‘private’ then you haven’t been paying attention.”

Well, I think I’ve generally been paying attention, and as I understand it, I think it’s fair to say that the profits have always been private (a little bit of interest on TARP money notwithstanding). Can’t say the same for the losses, of course. We’re all bearing those, and I’m guessing you and I probably find that circumstance equally distasteful — even if our proposed remedies to prevent it from happening again may differ.

 
Comment by Jon
2009-09-21 12:58:04

“Um…. no. You’d have to give me a link to an official budget for me to believe that.”

Well, though I could give you a link to my tax bill, I’m not going to. Suffice it to say that I spent $1780 in property taxes on my 2000 sq.ft. crapshack last year. Of which about $1000 went to the County School Board. Divide thay by 12.

And, as I understand it, our school district pays about $6500/student/year. However, that amount is spread out among all tax payers, not just the parents of the students. At least that’s how we do it in Florida.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 13:19:39

The cost for you out of your taxes is irrelevant though. What matters is how much is taken in in revenue by the county for each student. That money isn’t given back, or given to you, if your student doesn’t use public schools.

Put another way - if I have the choice of sending my kid to public school for free (in essence) vs. sending them to private school for thousands of $$ per year - it would be *very* difficult to choose the latter unless you’re fairly wealthy. Yeah you may only pay $400 per month for your kid, but that’s only one kid, and that’s pretty low on the range of what I’ve seen for most private schools (though I haven’t looked that deeply; the ones I have seen though have generally been between $5-$8k per year).

In other words, it is a virtual monopoly on education, as forced by the government.

The fact that some people - such as yourself, many of whom can barely afford it, choose to spend the extra thousands per year to send their kids to private schools - speaks volumes about the quality of public education.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 13:23:10

As a follow-up question, re:

And, as I understand it, our school district pays about $6500/student/year.

Why do you spend (extra) $4,000 per year to send your kid to a private school - when they could be getting what would presumably be a 60% better education at a school that costs $6500 per year?

(rhetorical question)

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-09-21 13:40:21

A better education at a public school?!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHH!

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 14:02:33

A better education at a public school?!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHH!

Read my post, and the context, again. It was tongue-in-cheek.

 
Comment by Jon
2009-09-21 14:50:30

Packman,

“Why do you spend (extra) $4,000 per year to send your kid to a private school - when they could be getting what would presumably be a 60% better education at a school that costs $6500 per year?

(rhetorical question)”

I’ll give you an answer anyway. In Florida, we have a nice “phasing” system for our students in public schools, which puts the good smart kids in the same classes with the better teachers. My son might get a better education in that environment than at his private school. However, his private school will teach him other qualities I value: leadership, kindness, civility, tolerance. Those are not things that are a regular part of the public school curricula.

 
Comment by ahansen
2009-09-21 21:43:35

“…his private school will teach him other qualities I value: leadership, kindness, civility, tolerance. Those are not things that are a regular part of the public school curricula.”

That is so not true.
My kid went to the worst public high school in the worst district in the worst county in the second worst state in the country. And guess what? The school offered an international baccalaureate program (20K+/year in a private school,) for free. He loved it, as did his fellows–most of whom are still my “kids”.
He also learned leadership, kindness, civility, and tolerance by attending a public school that was 80% first generation American– and has a state American Legion award medal to prove it.
Oh, and guess what else?
Because of his “diverse” background, he got into the most selective small PUBLIC college in the country, loved it, and graduated with honors.
Not everything a kid learns in school has to do with academics, you know….

 
 
 
Comment by Anon In DC
2009-09-21 08:48:26

I believe this is called play dates ? It has been going on for years among neighbors and families - without the government involvement. . Just another excuse to take taxpayers money and siphon off a large amount.

Comment by Al
2009-09-21 09:06:41

This is why I’m not sure about the cost-benefit. The staff isn’t large (mix of paid staff and volunteers), and space is leased (I think they do okay finding low cost locations) so the overhead isn’t too high. Playdates are somewhat limited by the ability to find other parents with children of similar ages and with similar schedules, while Early Years is more flexible. The paid staff is ECE qualified, so it’s a good chance to ask questions.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by rms
2009-09-21 06:59:40

“How long before the tots will go straight from the womb to the loving arms of state caregivers far better trained to deal with infants and small children than actual parents?”

A huge 200+ unit gated section-8 place in Vallejo, CA was a favorite repo place of mine because it sheltered so many credit thieves. Anyway, this place even featured a diaper changing station! The kids knew how to get there on their own ’cause “huge manatee” ma was busy watching the love connection or the shopping channel; dad, of course, was non existent.

Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 08:05:51

dad, of course, was non existent ??

Oh, he exists alright….We just need to get her on the Jerry Springer show to find out who…

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 09:16:18

HAHAhAha! Funny!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 09:17:19

….wait a minute….maybe that’s too true to be truly funny. Hmmm. I can’t make up my mind, now, should I laugh or cry?

 
Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 10:18:50

In all seriousness we should cry for the child…

 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-09-21 11:59:37

I think I turned on the Jerry Springer show one time, years ago, and I was absolutely shocked at the caliber of people. Circus freaks is all that came to mind. It seemed to me that they must be combing the lands far and wide to find these people. But, more and more I began to realize that they are everywhere, and their numbers are growing. We really need to do something about our school system. Many places are now sporting high school graduation rates of well under 50%. That’s sad.

 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-09-21 09:21:20

Dad of course speaks Ghetto…a language not highly regarded in the working world.

—————————–
dad, of course, was non existent ??

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Skip
2009-09-21 11:33:37

It used to be if the father was around they didn’t qualify for free housing.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 06:17:35

Obama open to newspaper bailout bill
The Hill 09/20/09

The president said he is “happy to look at” bills before Congress that would give struggling news organizations tax breaks if they were to restructure as nonprofit businesses.

“I haven’t seen detailed proposals yet, but I’ll be happy to look at them,” Obama told the editors of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and Toledo Blade in an interview.

Sen. Ben Cardin (D-Md.) has introduced S. 673, the so-called “Newspaper Revitalization Act,” that would give outlets tax deals if they were to restructure as 501(c)(3) corporations. That bill has so far attracted one cosponsor, Cardin’s Maryland colleague Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D).

White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs had played down the possibility of government assistance for news organizations, which have been hit by an economic downturn and dwindling ad revenue.

In early May, Gibbs said that while he hadn’t asked the president specifically about bailout options for newspapers, “I don’t know what, in all honesty, government can do about it.”

Obama said that good journalism is “critical to the health of our democracy,” but expressed concern toward growing tends in reporting — especially on political blogs, from which a groundswell of support for his campaign emerged during the presidential election.

“I am concerned that if the direction of the news is all blogosphere, all opinions, with no serious fact-checking, no serious attempts to put stories in context, that what you will end up getting is people shouting at each other across the void but not a lot of mutual understanding,” he said.

Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 06:33:30

Want to read all about it online? It may cost you
Newspapers expected to open Internet toll booths this fall as publishers test online fees.

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — With their advertising revenue drying up, newspaper publishers spent much of the spring and summer debating whether to cut off free online access to some of the material they run in their shrinking print editions.

It looks like the talk will turn to action this fall, when some large newspapers are expected to put up Internet toll booths.

They’ll be testing readers’ willingness to pay for information and entertainment that mostly has been given away online for the past 15 years. That happened largely because most publishers could afford to subsidize their Web sites with profits from their print franchises. But now those profits have crumbled, just as the prices for online ads are tumbling, too.

A recent study by the American Press Institute found 58 percent of the responding newspapers are considering online fees. Of that group, 22 percent expect to introduce the fee before the end of the year. The findings drew upon 118 interviews of newspaper executives in the U.S. and Canada.

Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 07:07:31

I would be willing to pay for access to a newspaper or magazine online as long as it is inexpensive…Maybe $.25 for the New York Times

Comment by Cassandra
2009-09-21 13:57:49

I see you are a big fan of fiction.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 14:24:01

Big enough fan to part with 25 cents for it..yes

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Al
2009-09-21 06:39:07

“Obama said that good journalism is “critical to the health of our democracy,” but expressed concern toward growing tends in reporting —…”

Now for a moment I had a shred of hope that he would start talking about the constant spin and reporters treating sales pitches as news. My hope was quickly crushed.

“…all opinions, with no serious fact-checking, no serious attempts to put stories in context…”

He’s worried about this from the blogsphere, and not the MSM?

Comment by palmetto
2009-09-21 06:46:18

“He’s worried about this from the blogsphere, and not the MSM?”

I was thinking the same thing and nearly killed myself laughing.

At least the old Soviet Union knew how to economize. If you’re going to socialize the media, why have more than one or two outlets?

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-09-21 06:54:30

God forbid individuals actually develop and exercise the personal initiative to weigh differing opinions on their own.

What’s next from the nanny state? Pre-chewed food?

Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 07:09:11

Pre-chewed food…+1 Ejohn…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by shizo
2009-09-21 11:31:13

That’s how I refer to Arby’s, pre-chewed… It is like mush in my mouth. Fries are yummy tho! I went there about 2 months ago and asked for regular fries, they said they have not had them for almost 2 years… I eat a lot of fast food obviously.

But we are just on the cusp of saving everything via big-bro. You think the starving masses will sit idly by while all the rich get bailed out? Oh, wait…

 
 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2009-09-21 07:12:39

Really. The fact checkers went four rounds of layoffs ago. Since neither people nor advertizers are interested in facts, they provided costs without revenues.

 
Comment by oxide
2009-09-21 07:29:38

President Obama said “especially the blogs” not “only the blogs.” Obama is a lawyer and knows his English. Obama also knows full well not to dis the mainstream media too forcefully or obviously (although he became a little testy with Georgie Snuffluphagus yesterday).

Also notice that Obama is “happy to look at proposals,” which is VERY different from being “open to a bailout.” Apparently the MSM likes to distort even when they talk about themselves. I assume that Obama is intelligent enough to weigh opinions and make a judgement as well as any reader today. He could very well be telegraghing that he was open to look at proposals…in order to reject them.

Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 08:58:27

Snuffluphagus ?? :)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by blackwater
2009-09-21 09:11:56

WOW. You’re pretty good at mind reading, aren’t you?

Watch the actions of this guy not what he says. He’s a better liar than Clinton.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 10:22:30

He’s a better liar than Clinton ??

Maybe, but they are both minor league players compared to Dubya’s Lion…

 
Comment by Al
2009-09-21 12:32:21

“He’s a better liar than Clinton ??”

I guess that depends on the definition of better. Are we talking volume of lies, or ability to avoid detection?

 
Comment by Cassandra
2009-09-21 14:00:04

That depends on what the definition of “is” is.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-09-21 16:03:19

That depends on what the definition of “is” is.

HAhahahahaah! Oh, golly, thank you, Cassandra.

 
 
Comment by polly
2009-09-21 09:50:30

DC moment:

Bills with a serious chance of passing get way more than 2 sponsors.

“Willing to look at” means I’m not going to kill this myself because I probably don’t have to.

I mentioned yesterday that the IRS has a large role in regulating non-profits. How many newspapers really want to take on that burden? Suggest they start by asking the hospitals how much they enjoy it.

Being tax exempt is only a benefit if you make a profit. If you have no money left after paying to make your product (including all employee and executive salaries), being exempt from paying taxes on $0 is not much help.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Xenos
2009-09-21 06:39:12

If some newspapers are to convert to non-profits, they have to get bought out by persons or entities willing to recapitalize them and then spin them off as non-profits. Who other than government would do that? Anybody less appropriate for taking such a role?

If the question had come up a couple years ago the only appropriate entities rich enough yet already operating as non profits would be certain universities with very large endowments. Thus, we could get the Harvard Globe or the Columbia New York Times. No way that can happen now.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-09-21 08:46:56

“bought out”???

Why should we spend taxpayers money to line the pockets of the owners of big media? If they can’t make money as a for-profit business in this space, then the value as a business is zero—and we should buy it at that price.

Comment by oxide
2009-09-21 10:28:15

I think you need to look up what “profit” means.

I wouldn’t mind buying for real fact-checking at the break-even price.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by polly
2009-09-21 09:59:27

Not really. If they are owned by media conglomerates that acknowledge their value is zero or close to it, they can just be donated to a newly created non-profit company. However, the owners might vastly prefere not to because the newpaper tax losses are currently offsetting other profits of the conglomerate at a marginal cost less than the value of the tax benefit.

And a privately owned paper can also just be donated to a newly formed non-profit. Hard to imagine the current owners will want to risk their jobs by just handing over control to a non-profit board, but they could.

I just don’t see it happening. Not in the real world. Cardin must owe someone a favor.

 
 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-09-21 06:53:54

Sounds like a great way to provide perpetual direct federal funding to the Official Mouthpiece of the DNC, the NY Times.

Wonder if they will change their motto to “All We Can Print That Advances Democrats”?

For at least the last 30 years, the NY Times editors have equated parroting the DNC with being fit to print. This bill could at least give them a few billion every month or two to help keep State Sponsored Leftist Propaganda flowing out of NYC.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-09-21 09:22:47

Just out of curoisity where would you place the Washington Times in your rant against the DNC?

Don’t get me wrong. I’m against this so called thinking about bailing out of the newspapers. Any newspaper.

Comment by sf jack
2009-09-21 10:00:17

Of the unbiased masses, who the hell reads the Washington Times?

To even bring that up is laughable.

The New York Times pretends to be objective.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-09-21 21:23:22

Maybe to you. Let me laugh for you. Har, Harrrrr, Harr.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 07:11:45

Shouting across the void can be invigorating.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 07:15:11

Could government support to newspapers double as a muzzle on freedom of speech?

Comment by packman
2009-09-21 08:22:24

It does in every other aspect of government funding (e.g. schools as a prime analogy) - why wouldn’t it for newspapers?

Comment by packman
2009-09-21 08:23:32

(just to answer your certainly rhetorical question) :-)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Martin Gale
2009-09-21 12:24:45

How so in schools? Is the (non)teaching of creationism the example of “muzzling” you have in mind, or is it something else? Your statement is pretty sweeping.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 12:46:47

Any teaching of creationism I can do without, but mostly I am referring to the disallowal of things like prayer in schools; a stifling of first amendment rights. I don’t want government teaching of religion in schools, but I also don’t want government stifling of religion - either directly in that form, or indirectly in the form of financially hamstringing people who do want to send their kids to a non-public school that may teach some religion (see other comments in this thread about public vs. private schools).

Also generally referring to lack of quality of the education, and the emphasis on things that are most expedient towards the policy-du-jour - e.g. just last week the examples of the recent lesson plans from the administration urging students to learn about Obama’s personal history, interestingly coinciding with the report that 75% of Oklahoma City student’s couldn’t even name who the first (and probably most important) president even was.

Another general example would be our increasing focus on “self-esteem”, culminating in extreme watering down of actual education, as reflected by many, many things like grade inflation and just overall suckiness of the output of the schools.

 
Comment by Martin Gale
2009-09-21 13:58:02

Gotcha. Thanks for explaining. I understand your position better, and I’m inclined to agree with some of what you’re saying, especially in the latter paragraphs.

 
 
 
Comment by polly
2009-09-21 11:37:32

The Heritage Foundation is a tax exempt reserch foundation. It participates in the Combined Federal Campaign which is how federal government employees may have charitable donations withheld from their paychecks and sent to the organizations automatically.

Has it been muzzled through this form of “government support”?

Comment by packman
2009-09-21 11:50:16

Apples and oranges. Donations to the Heritage Foundation are voluntary and thus done by choice. If they don’t perform, they lose donations. Donations to bailed-out entities are done by force. If they don’t perform, their donations increase.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by polly
2009-09-21 12:51:23

How does a bill giving them tax exempt status tranlate to giving them loads of government money? You guys are reading way too much into this. Give me a citation to the text of the bill saying that an actual grant of money is contemplated, rather than just tax exemption and I will talk to you about it. The last time this came up (over the summer) there wasn’t any money involved beyond not paying taxes on their invisible profits.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 19:08:05

Sorry polly - I have to admit I goofed - I just read the “bailout” headline and assumed we were talking actual government payments, ala TARP; a knee-jerk reaction I see after reading the article. I stand corrected.

You’re right it is similar to the Heritage Foundation (and other similar “think tank” foundations for that matter). To be honest I haven’t thought much about the validity of tax-exempt status of foundations - it seems like they shouldn’t be; at least the ones that aren’t primarily charity-driven. Though I would imagine that’s a hard line to draw in some cases.

 
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-09-21 16:40:24

A lot of these so called “Think Tanks” are the creation of Edward Bernays, who was Freud’s nephew. A lot of non-profits are so called “Think Tanks”. Bernays was the father of Public Relations, and created the think tanks to hide the corporate name, so there would be a seperation between the propaganda, agenda or bias, and the corporate interest. Now when I see Foundation, Center For…, etc… I dig deep to find out who is behind it. Good PR campaigns have done a lot of damage to societies. The 3rd Reich used Bernays tactics, and so did the cig sector, to get women to think of the “torch of freedom”, connecting smoking with the right to vote. Even Bernays’ daughter knows her father was evil genius. I learned about Bernays in school when I was a young’n. Caveat emptor on Foundations, Center For…, etc.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 12:42:59

You have less civil rights in business settings than the government will ever impose.

You do NOT have freedom of speech in the workplace or for that matter, any private property. MSM is under NO obligation to publish opposing viewpoints nor present the entire story. If they do publish an opposing viewpoint it’s because their rating are suffering and controversy, like sex, sells.

This blog and other websites that allow reader feedback are your ONLY real opportunities for free speech and even then the owners are also under no obligation to allow your posts.

So unless you can afford to buy a mass media operation (you do have a few million lying around, right?) you actually don’t have freedom of speech.

The biggest muzzle on freedom of speech is in fact, business.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 17:25:21

… or get a book or article published or paid speaking engagements.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by ahansen
2009-09-21 21:55:43

Like the BBC or PBS muzzle free and objective speech?

 
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-09-21 08:37:43

“Newspaper Revitalization Act,”
Please tell me this is an Onion piece.

Comment by Martin Gale
2009-09-21 12:01:15

While we’re at it, I would like to propose the “Buggy Whip Revitalization Act” and the “Rabbit Ears Antenna Revitalization Act”

 
Comment by edward
2009-09-21 14:08:46

This will never happen. Pay no attention.

 
 
Comment by ahansen
2009-09-21 21:49:42

I would absolutely support this.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 06:24:20

For sale: $2 billion in state buildings
Effort to balance budget likely to draw global interest

California plans to sell $2 billion worth of prime real estate with lease-back agreements to help fill the budget gap created by the state’s severe money woes.

Much of the real estate consists of Sacramento office buildings, including the five-building East End Complex, the Attorney General building and the Franchise Tax Board complex.

The buildings are trophies — made even more valuable by their long-term lease-back agreements.

The portfolio, which also includes buildings in San Francisco and Los Angeles, represents more than 5.66 million square feet. A preliminary estimate values the buildings at $2 billion, but the state’s proceeds are expected to be only a third of that, or about $662 million, because some of the buildings still carry financing and bonds. Some also have deferred maintenance.

“There are many factors for each building,” said Jeffrey Young, deputy director of public affairs with the state Department of General Services.

The 17 buildings could be sold individually, as a complete package or in various combinations.

Nine of the office buildings and a parking garage are in the Sacramento area, and seven of them are in downtown Sacramento. Five of the buildings and the parking garage make up the East End Complex on the east side of Capitol Park, spanning from L to N streets. They are part of the state’s push more than a decade ago to build big office spaces downtown rather than leasing many smaller scattered buildings through midtown Sacramento and in the suburbs.
Wanted: A broker

The offering likely will garner the attention of international investors. The call for a brokerage to represent the buildings certainly has gathered a lot of attention.

The Department of General Services last week released the request for proposals for brokerage and investment banking advisory services. The deadline for written questions is Sept. 30. Proposals must be submitted by Oct. 30, and the contract will be awarded Dec. 28.

The first sales could occur during the first quarter.

“There is no doubt that it is going to draw a lot of attention. There are an awful lot of people that want that assignment,” said John Frisch, managing partner with Cornish & Carey Commercial/Oncor International in Sacramento.

At a minimum, the state is requiring bidders to have structured at least five sales and sales/lease-backs worth at least $20 million apiece, and to have completed at least $150 million in such sales over the past seven years.

Brokers said buildings of this caliber — mostly Class A buildings with steady, long-term leases — rarely are available. And for the most part, the locations are all very strong.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-09-21 06:44:14

Desperation has set in ….why would you lease back a building you don’t fully own?

 
Comment by cereal
2009-09-21 06:55:15

Don’t you think we should concentrate on replacing the RAMS here in L.A. before we sell off all our buildings?

Comment by In Colorado
2009-09-21 09:06:03

Too late vato! In Los Anheles we like to watch futbol, the kind you play with your feet!

Kidding aside, how long has LA be NFL free? 10 years? 15?

Comment by cereal
2009-09-21 09:49:50

Furthermore, we shouldn’t be disrupting our fragile economy while the wildcard teams are still undecided

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by In Colorado
2009-09-21 11:11:05

You mean in Major League Soccer? I predict that both LA teams (Galaxy and Chivas) will make the playoffs.

The Colorado Rapids? Not so sure.

 
 
 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 07:29:37

Penny wise & pound foolish…Stupid idea…Just political posturing…

Comment by wittbelle
2009-09-21 13:27:43

I saw a bit on The Daily Show about this sort of thing happening in Arizona. (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-september-15-2009/arizona-state-capitol-building-for-sale)
The Republic newspaper interviewed Jason Jones afterward:

Republic: So, you did the tour. What did you learn about Arizona state government?

Jones: I feel your government is in turmoil and is in a serious heap of trouble. And I feel no one is going to purchase these ugly-ass buildings.

Republic: If this were, let’s say, some sort of race to state bankruptcy, what place would Arizona be in? Are we in first place? Are we trailing California?

Jones: I think it’s a close horse race. I think it’s too early to call. I think you’re coming down the final stretch toward that checkered bankruptcy flag. It’s neck-and-neck. What I’m saying to you is: Move.

Republic: What do you think of the concept of selling and leasing back properties that you already own?

Jones: What do I personally think or what does my character think?

Republic: Well, you’re in character.

Jones: Am I? They’re kind of both the same these days. I don’t know where character Jason ends and real Jason begins. Let’s decide for both: I think my character thinks this is a really stupid idea. But, my self thinks it’s even stupider.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 06:40:52

Buy now, or get priced out forever!

The article caption states 125 foreclosed homes will be auctioned, but in the body, it says 92,326 California homes were foreclosed in August, and that was during a ‘foreclosure moratorium’ which just expired on September 15! So what’s the rush to buy now?

Nearly 125 Foreclosed Homes Head to Auction in 12 Cities Throughout California
Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:00pm EDT

Valued from $18,500 to $850,000, Homes Will Be Auctioned September 23rd — 27th

LOS ANGELES, Sept. 18 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — California remains one of the weakest housing markets in the nation but its high inventory of foreclosures are attracting many buyers. Distressed homes have been driving sales gains in California and other Sun Belt states. Hudson & Marshall will auction about 120 bank-owned homes in 12 cities throughout California.

There are a variety of homes up for auction for every type of buyer, from investors to families and first time home buyers, ranging from move-in ready homes to those in need of improvements. Valued from about $18,500 to $850,000, all the homes come with title insurance paid for by the sellers. Buyers will be required to make a cash or certified check deposit of $5,000 for each property which they are the winning bidder.

“As home prices continue to sink in California, foreclosures are sought after purchases for homebuyers seeking great properties at discounted prices. National home sales are rising slowly, indicating a light at the end of the housing decline. Buyers should take advantage of these historically low prices before the tide begins to turn,” said Dave Webb, principal, Hudson & Marshall.

According to Realtytrac, during August, California posted the highest number of foreclosures of any state, with 92,326 homes receiving a foreclosure filing. According to S&P/Case Shiller Home Price Index report, in the second quarter of 2009 Los Angeles home values dropped 17.8% from the same time a year while San Francisco declined a staggering 22%.

Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-09-21 08:15:24

According to Realtytrac, during August, California posted the highest number of foreclosures of any state, with 92,326 homes receiving a foreclosure filing.

Almost 100K foreclosure filings in one month?

Zoiks, that’s a lot of downward pressure!

Comment by packman
2009-09-21 09:45:02

It’s worth noting that it’s been above 100k a few times recently.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 12:20:02

The number of monthly foreclosures in California has recently stabilized around 100K, up ever so slightly from the 5K-a-month pace back in 2005 (what’s a factor of 20 between friends?). I can’t help but wonder how these numbers might adjust now that unemployment has passed the 12 percent mark and the latest foreclosure moratorium just expired (on Sept 15)…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by CA renter
2009-09-22 01:47:10

Fear not! We have just turned the corner, and things will only go up from here. Buy now, or be priced out…FOREVER!!!

;)

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 06:45:27

Let her rip…

* THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
* TODAY’S MARKETS
* SEPTEMBER 21, 2009, 9:41 A.M. ET

Stocks Skid as Dollar Climbs

A WALL STREET JOURNAL ONLINE NEWS ROUNDUP

Stocks declined on Monday, led by basic-materials and energy stocks, after a rebound in the dollar weighed on commodities prices.

Shortly after the opening bell, the Dow Jones Industrial Average was lower by about 67 points. Alcoa was the largest decliner among the blue chips, falling by about 3%. The S&P 500-stock index declined 0.7% and the Nasdaq Composite Index shed about 0.5%.

The dollar, which has been under significant pressure against other currencies in recent weeks, strengthened in morning trading. The euro slipped to $1.4627 from $1.4702 late Friday in New York, while the dollar climbed to 92.42 yen from 91.38 yen.

Gold futures fell more than $10 to trade around $1,000 an ounce and crude-oil futures fell nearly $3, slipping below $70 a barrel. Exchange-traded funds that track the energy sector were down sharply; U.S. Oil Fund was down about 3%.

Comment by palmetto
2009-09-21 06:50:00

“Let her rip…”

Dang, Prof, that just struck me funny. Has October come early, or is it just a little profit-taking?

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 06:51:38

You would think if people ‘knew’ there was a high likelihood of a big crash in October, they would hedge their bets by unloading in September.

Comment by cereal
2009-09-21 06:59:44

The only sure way to know if the market will tank is if I invest money in it.

Does the same hold true for housing? Maybe one of you guys should take one for the team.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by salinasron
2009-09-21 07:41:19

“Does the same hold true for housing? Maybe one of you guys should take one for the team.”

Thanks for the laugh this am. Now I gotta wipe the coffee off my keyboard.

 
Comment by ylekiot
2009-09-21 08:20:04

That, “take one for the team” made me chuckle. Before finding this blog in 06, I was thinking of starting a website like blackcloud dot com. I was horrible at timing anything finance related. My idea was to have people pay me money and I would tell them what I was doing, so they could do the opposite. LOL

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 06:50:25

Why is the Wall Street Journal suddenly so keen on questioning the recent rally?

* THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
* ABREAST OF THE MARKET
* SEPTEMBER 21, 2009

A Bear Market Lurks as Dow Nears 10000

By E.S. BROWNING

Rarely has the stock market seen a six-month rally like the one it just turned in. The Dow Jones Industrial Average’s 46% surge was one of just six of that magnitude in the last 100 years. And that is exactly what worries many analysts.

All previous rallies of this magnitude took place in the 1930s and the 1970s, according to Ned Davis Research. Those were periods of turbulence for both the economy and the markets, and none of the gains was sustained.

Many analysts believe that stocks are again in such a turbulent period, and that this rally could lead to another slump. Stocks did enjoy a rally of 40% in 1982, at the start of a long-running period of stock-market prosperity. That rally wasn’t of the same magnitude of the others, however. It came as economic troubles, notably inflation, were finally being squeezed out of the economy.

We could end up having another big decline next year,” said Tim Hayes, Ned Davis’s chief investment strategist, who correctly forecast a rally early this year. “Right now, people are asking me, ‘Is it too late to get in?’ We are saying, sure, you can get in, but don’t fall asleep at the wheel, you have to get out, too. If you are looking to put money in and then not look at it for a year, you are taking a big chance.

Comment by palmetto
2009-09-21 06:53:00

Pump’n Dump!

 
Comment by measton
2009-09-21 07:04:56

Why is the Wall Street Journal suddenly so keen on questioning the recent rally?

Because it’s time for banks and the US gov to sell treasuries.

WASHINGTON -(Dow Jones)- The Treasury announced Thursday it plans to sell $ 197.0 billion in six securities next week.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 07:06:27

There is no better time to sell bonds than when interest rates are hammered down to near 0 percent, is there?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by exeter
2009-09-21 07:12:01

Unless you bought them at 0%.

 
Comment by darthrealtor
2009-09-21 07:37:08

1 year ago the 90 day yielded almost 1%. This year it yields….
drum roll…..
.07%

That’s right folks. With all those fraudulent CPI/Inflation numbers the government is actually trying to get you to pay for the privilege of keeping your moneys. Yay!

 
Comment by Ol'Bubba
2009-09-21 07:39:05

Yes. Where is the upside in a bond bearing an interest rate close to 0%?

In that case, you are looking for credit quality.

Anyone else care to offer an explanation?

 
Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 09:01:49

care to offer an explanation ??

Preservation of principal..I think its basically that simple…

 
Comment by Ol'Bubba
2009-09-21 09:35:31

Preservation of principal falls under the credit quality umbrella imo.

 
Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 10:25:52

Fair enough…

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 21:01:29

“Preservation of principal..I think its basically that simple…”

There is also a highly-liquid secondary market for Treasurys.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 08:40:53

China Can’t Buy Enough Bonds as Dollar No Deterrent (Update3)
By Cordell Eddings and Lukanyo Mnyanda

Sept. 21 (Bloomberg) — International investors are increasing purchases of Treasuries on a bet U.S. inflation will remain subdued, even as the dollar falls to the lowest levels of the year and the budget deficit tops $1 trillion.

Investors outside the U.S. bought 43.1 percent of the $1.41 trillion of notes and bonds sold by the Treasury Department this year, compared with 27.1 percent of the $527 billion issued at this point in 2008, government figures show. The Merrill Lynch & Co. Treasury Master Index of U.S. securities returned 1.18 percent in the third quarter after the worst first half on record as demand from the investor group that includes central banks climbed to record levels at Treasury auctions.

The trade-weighted U.S. Dollar Index’s 15 percent decline from its high this year on March 4 has proved no obstacle in Treasury auctions, aiding President Barack Obama’s efforts to sell an unprecedented amount of debt. Fund managers say their money is safe in the U.S. with expectations for inflation as measured by indexed bonds below the five-year average.

Treasuries are “starting to look like even a better value with a weaker dollar,” said Dave Chappell, who manages $90 billion in London at Threadneedle Asset Management Ltd., and has been buying longer maturity U.S. government debt.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 10:14:32

Don’t those fools know we’re the next Zimbabwe? You’d almost think they expected deflation and a strengthening dollar.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 20:10:02

and/or they want to keep their Siamese twin alive

 
 
Comment by DD
2009-09-21 09:28:33

“Why is the Wall Street Journal suddenly so keen on questioning the recent rally?” wmbz I think they are shouting often and loud to their friends/family to get out now. Just in case they weren’t listening.
The rest of us can all go to he.. as far as WSJ is concerned, that I am sure of.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Skip
2009-09-21 07:52:09

Stocks did enjoy a rally of 40% in 1982

That 40% was not that great when you consider inflation during that time period.

Inflation -
1979: 11.22%
1980: 13.58%
1981: 10:35%
1982: 6.26%

Comment by exeter
2009-09-21 08:12:38

Good point skip. Nobody seems to mention the rampant inflation of 2001-2007.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Northeastener
2009-09-21 08:25:36

Stocks did enjoy a rally of 40% in 1982, at the start of a long-running period of stock-market prosperity.

As noted in the article and mentioned by Faster Pussycat here on this blog a number of times, interest rates peaked around 20% and spent the next 30 years heading to 0% (effectively). That was a one-way trip and now we’re stuck at the bottom, just like the Japanese…

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 06:54:48

* THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
* AHEAD OF THE TAPE
* SEPTEMBER 21, 2009

Worth Asking: Who Wins if Dollar Loses?
By MARK GONGLOFF

Betting against the dollar is becoming an awfully crowded, and risky, trade.

There are reasons to doubt the greenback’s value. Government debt is the highest as a percentage of gross domestic product since the 1950s. Federal Reserve monetary policy has never been easier, flooding the system with dollars.

Yet there are a number of scenarios in which the dollar could rise, or at least stay flat. They include a U.S. recovery relatively better than in other parts of the world, or, in the other direction, another global financial crisis and deflation.

Comment by palmetto
2009-09-21 07:06:26

Heckuva job, Timmay!

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 07:13:09

Wasn’t a flood of money into the financial system a primary causal factor behind the recently popped credit bubble?

Comment by cactus
2009-09-21 12:08:33

“Wasn’t a flood of money into the financial system a primary causal factor behind the recently popped credit bubble?”

I think it was a flood of money from the financial system to consumers so they could buy buy buy

After all you really don’t have to pay it back it seems….

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Northeastener
2009-09-21 08:07:14

Betting against the dollar is becoming an awfully crowded, and risky, trade

The next leg down in the credit and stock markets will cause a “flight-to-safety” to the dollar, thus providing the pressure to get the US dollar carry-traders to cover their bets and cause a snap in the dollar index. I’m betting this will happen by Oct, but maybe we don’t see a major decline until early next year. Either way, too many bears on the dollar and too many sheep looking at the stock rally and itching to get in.

I’m heavy cash and bonds (go PIMPCo) in my 401K and staying nimble in my spec account.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-09-21 08:13:03

It really seems that way, doesn’t it? The dollar bashing is off the charts. So much so, one would think that today is when oil should be $147 bbl instead of fifteen months ago.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 21:03:50

“…today is when oil should be $147 bbl…”

Refer to today’s WSJ article on slack demand for the reason…

 
 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2009-09-21 07:11:31

According to chart of the day, S&P earnings have declined an unprecedented 92 pct — the largest on record since 1936 — yet the market is pricing ebullient times ahead.

Something is not adding up. Incomes are falling. Outstanding debt is also plummeting. Where are the sales and earnings going to come from? They can’t grow from these levels by only cutting costs.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 07:20:30

With the index of leading economic indicators indicating economic recovery, why is the stock market not rejoicing today?

market pulse

Sept. 21, 2009, 10:00 a.m. EDT
U.S. Aug. leading economic indicators rise 0.6%
By Rex Nutting

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) - The U.S. recession is bottoming out and a recovery is near, economists for the Conference Board said Monday after reporting that the index of leading economic indicators rose 0.6% in August, the fifth straight increase. The coincident index - designed to measure current activity - was flat in August after an upwardly revised 0.1% gain in July, the private research organization said. “These numbers are consistent with the view that, after a very severe downturn, a recovery is very near,” said Ken Goldstein, economist for the organization.

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-09-21 09:42:58

“economists for the Conference Board”
I looked up the Con Board, and it was made up of Fortune 500 company execs.

 
 
Comment by Michael Viking
2009-09-21 07:37:45

Let her rip…

It’s a little early in the day to conclude the market is crashing. I see green shoots everywhere, like “Leading economic indicators rise in August” and “House moves to extend unemployment benefits”. We’ll see if the fat lady is singing by the end of the day. This is most likely a PPT head-fake.

 
Comment by cactus
2009-09-21 12:03:10

China is buying lots of treasuries Bloomberg had a article on that last night

Comment by packman
2009-09-21 12:48:57

Their buying has slowed significantly the last 6 months.

 
 
 
Comment by eastcoaster
2009-09-21 07:02:43

Q&A about the possibility of a tax credit extension - best part of the response:

So it’s entirely possible we’ll see an extension, but no one knows. No one can know. One thing you can be sure of is that your pushy real estate agent is clearly much more interested in locking up a commission than in helping you make the decision that’s right for you.

The large cast of bad actors that got us into this housing mess clearly includes the army of real estate agents out there who insisted that “home prices never go down.” Many of these folks are honest, decent souls who perform a legitimate function. Others are less honorable. Unfortunately you can’t tell which one you’ve got until after the damage is done.

So take anything and everything you hear from a real estate agent with a healthy dose of skepticism. The industry has long known it has an image problem, which is why it came up with a fancy new word so they can call themselves Realtors®™©, etc. Whatever they’re called, these folks get paid to convince you to sell your house and convince someone else to buy it. Keep that foremost in your mind when they give you advice — especially about market conditions, forecasts and the timing of a sale. In thirty years, I have never heard a real estate agent say “This is a terrible time to buy a house.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32939476/

Love it!

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 07:05:23

This sounds to me like more of a test on deflation, though I can see how one type of test could quickly morph into its opposite.

* THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
* SEPTEMBER 21, 2009

Slack Attack: Fed Faces Test on Inflation

By SARA MURRAY and JON HILSENRATH

BEND, Ore. — Tens of thousands of people who moved here in the past decade saw a booming real-estate market and plentiful jobs amid the mountains of Central Oregon. Now they see slack.

A year and a half of recession has left local manufacturer Bright Wood Corp. with too much capacity at its plants that make window and door components. Bright Wood has laid off nearly half of its work force, shut an 80,000-square-foot factory in Bend, and sold or stored its extra equipment.

Additional underutilized industrial space, housing and workers are apparent across town. More than 9,000 people have lost jobs since mid-2006. Some 29% of homes are vacant. “For Lease” signs hang on store windows near the town’s main drag, Wall Street.

Similar slack — the unused portion of an economy’s productive capacity — is evident across the U.S. Thousands of airplanes and hundreds of thousands of train cars sit unused, hotels report their highest vacancy rates in at least two decades, and millions of Americans are underemployed.

Comment by palmetto
2009-09-21 07:15:23

“Thousands of airplanes and hundreds of thousands of train cars sit unused”

Couldn’t these be turned into housing? Welcome to the F-111 Trailer Park? Or the Cozy Caboose Cottages?

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-09-21 07:37:28

With so much underutilization of human as well as other assets, deflation is the big near-term risk. The Fed is working mightily behind the scenes to contain it and it remains to be seen how successful they will be.

Down: home prices, rents, gasoline and diesel, food, clothing, salaries/wages.

Up: Medical insurance (as usual), higher education.

Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 07:44:23

I agree Bill…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-09-21 09:10:40

I keep waiting to see these mythical “lower” food prices. Other than milk everything seems just as expensive as before, if not more expensive.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by oxide
2009-09-21 10:38:06

I’m convinced that milk prices are fixed because they know that everyone knows the price of a gallon of milk. It would be more useful for each individual to pick a mystery item and track it. Like a case of beer. And have you seen the price of a box cereal? :shock: I can buy frozen blueberries for cheaper — much MUCH healthier.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-09-21 11:12:32

Or bagged, generic cereal for that matter. Its WAY up.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 13:17:13

I’m saying the same. What deflation?

 
Comment by Watching the Carnage
2009-09-21 19:01:01

Oxide,

Sadly, I could better track inflation with the cost of a case of beer than a gallon of milk. The last gallon of milk I bought was more than a decade ago - the last case of beer…days ago!

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-09-21 19:22:11

Sadly, I could better track inflation with the cost of a case of beer than a gallon of milk. The last gallon of milk I bought was more than a decade ago - the last case of beer…days ago!

The Beer Index is not lookin’ too good in the City Of Big Shoulders, brother. No deflation here. But it ain’t stopped me yet.

 
 
Comment by DD
2009-09-21 09:32:22

wish rents would go lower in houses, apts are going lower + free months, but condos, houses? Not so much. Read, no lowering.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-09-21 09:43:42

“Thousands of airplanes and hundreds of thousands of train cars sit unused”

When driving through Idaho to Canada in June, we saw miles of train cars sitting unused.

Comment by Skip
2009-09-21 11:37:33

The planes are out in the deserts of New Mexico and Death Valley.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Claire
2009-09-21 16:35:15

You jest, but in the past some of the old carriages in Britian were turned in houses.

 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 07:42:43

Bend was poisoned by California locust…

Comment by hip in zilker
2009-09-21 09:00:45

Is Bend where DinOR lives?

Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 09:05:06

where DinOR lives ??

I believe she (?) lives somewhere around Salem.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DennisN
2009-09-21 13:31:28

He definitely lives near Salem.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-09-21 07:19:43

CORRUPTION: Govermment Housing Programs

It is time to call “BS” on the so-called “reform” in the mortgage lending industry, along with the government’s “progress” in this regard.

The current FHA report is now out for servicing delinquencies and defaults, and as expected it is indeed worse, not better. The administration continues to LIE about claimed “improvements” in the character of home finance.

22.9% of all FHA loans are either delinquent or in foreclosure. Why?

Ginnie claims that a “typical” borrower can spend 36% of their gross income on housing, or the front-end ratio (they also include $342 monthly for other housing-related costs, presumably homeowners insurance and utilities) and 49% of gross income on housing and all other mandatory debt service, or a 49% DTI.

This is preposterous. Such a loan would leave a typical couple with $1800 in monthly income - pretax!

Now let’s take out the required FICA + Medicare tax and $322.91 comes out off the top monthly. This leaves you with under $1,500 monthly.

From this you must pay:

•Federal and state income taxes
•Car registration and insurance
•Child care for those two dependents
•Food
•All other employment-related expenses (transportation, whether in your vehicle or mass transit, uniforms or clothing as required, etc.)
•Health insurance contributions (if covered under an employee plan) along with all co-pays and other non-reimbursed expenses.
•Retirement contributions (401k/IRA)
and on and on and on.

A family of four on $1,500 a month for everything other than the house eh? Yes, this might work - if you don’t make any retirement contribution, you never get sick, you don’t lose your job and are unable to find a new one for even one week, your car does not break down and your “great housing opportunity” doesn’t require a roof, a furnace, or a water heater.

This much is certain - you won’t be saving anything for a rainy-day fund, you won’t be paying for child care, and if any of the ordinary calamities that hit families from time to time (see the above for a partial list) hit your family you will almost certainly fall behind on your house payment.

Since you have no extra earnings capacity or slack in your budget once that happens you’re doomed - there is essentially no chance you can catch up which means you will wind up foreclosed upon.

This is exactly the sort of BS “lending” that went on during the housing bubble; while it is SOMEWHAT-less egregious than the “OptionARM” games the fact remains that under any sort of actual underwriting standard where CAPACITY is evaluated this loan is manifestly unsound and, on the objective evidence, should be considered PREDATORY.

Yet this is what our government is willing to underwrite and issue a formal federal full-faith-and-credit guarantee upon.

Oh, and the real topper? The $6,190 you need to come up with at closing could be entirely monetized from the $8,000 “first time future foreclosure victim tax credit”, meaning that you don’t even have to demonstrate that you can save up $6,000 first.

This is an outrage!

The safe limits for underwriting have for years been known to be 28%/36% and this is the reason why. At a 36% DTI the same family has $2,666 monthly pretax instead of $1,800 - a critical $850 that is the difference between being able to eat real food and cat food, having something with which to pay for child care, being able to afford a failed transmission in your car or a new water heater, and being able to make some sort of contribution to a retirement account.

This outrageous and corrupt attempt by our government to pump housing for the explicit purpose of shielding banks from having to take their losses as well as catering to the homebuilder and Realty industries is beyond the pale. These “affordability” ratios will do nothing other than generate millions of new foreclosures in the coming years, and the responsibility for each and every one of them rests directly with the present administration and the GSEs.

Everyone involved in this predatory conduct both within and beyond our government should find themselves in new housing - the graybar motel.

(From K. Denninger)

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-09-21 09:16:50

My, my - with all those demands on their yet to be earned salaries, how are those houseowners supposed to participate in a consumer-led, v-shaped recovery?

 
Comment by polly
2009-09-21 10:21:59

I did a quick check on my own income of spending 31% of gross on PITI. Now, I admit, I didn’t figure out the change in taxes and I do max out my 401k contributions and have a few other things taken out of the paycheck before I see it, but it came out to 66% of my take home pay.

I could pull it off. But I have no child care expenses, parents who can take care of themselves so far, fairly low health care costs, eat in most of the time, no student loan payments and zero commuting costs. I don’t see how anyone who had to take on more than one or possibly two of those could manage even at 31% of gross, never mind 36%.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-09-21 11:12:52

You Walk to work? I didnt think you worked from home.

zero commuting costs

Comment by Kim
2009-09-21 13:05:04

When I lived in D.C. it wasn’t all that uncommon to give employees a metro pass rather than a parking space.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by polly
2009-09-21 15:15:26

Transportation subsidy takes care of train costs. I walk to the station so have no parking expenses.

Actually, it costs me more to work from home since that uses more electricity or heat than not being out of the apartment all day.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 14:01:27

I’m a single guy and even I can’t live on 1500 a month without serious discounts. (i.e. rarely eating out. coupons. no fancy groceries. cheap rent. no cable. cheap gas. no long trips. clothes on sale… you get the picture)

Family of four? Destitute.

Comment by polly
2009-09-21 15:16:43

Ummm….in this case the family wouldn’t have any rent since their 36% of gross was going to PITI. Still no way to live….

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by CA renter
2009-09-22 02:02:56

You are exactly right, Polly.

I’ve always said that even the 28/33% DTI ratios are too generous these days because those ratios were determined back when people worked for one company for 30 years, had employer-paid medical coverage, and had a DB pension waiting for them at the end. Those days are over, so people need to put aside MORE money for emergency, retirement, and “unemployment” funds.

IMHO, a family of four making $100K/year gross, should spend less than 25% of their gross income on total housing/debt expenses. But maybe that’s why we still can’t find a reasonably-priced house. Others out there are always willing to pay more because they aren’t thinking of the long-term consenquences.

 
 
 
Comment by fecaltime!
2009-09-21 07:22:25

“Typical Overconsumption on a very small scale”

I coach a softball team, 2 days ago I was given a large bucket of 30 softballs, in addition to this, I was given 5 ‘game balls’. I casually looked at these boxed ‘gameballs’ and noticed they were made in China. I got to thinking to myself, why did we really need these 5 extra gameballs? I already had 30 perfectly good softballs (all made in China of course). The girls would have been just fine if we used ‘preused’ softballs. I think we need to rethink a million little things like this, if we ever are going to move in the right direction of less mindless wasteful consumption. I intend on talking to the league official (my buddy), I will likely get laughed at for bringing it up though…:(

Fecaltime!

Comment by In Colorado
2009-09-21 09:13:27

I’m sure the Chinese made softballs retailed for 1 penny less than their American made counterparts.

Comment by Skip
2009-09-21 11:51:13

Using clean, unused game balls came into play after a baseball player in the 20’s died after being struck in the head by a pitch during a twilight game. This was back when players chewed tobacco and spit on the field, so the ball probably wasn’t even close to being white.

All of the major league balls are made in Costa Rica.

Comment by fecaltime!
2009-09-21 19:41:51

Very interesting skip, thanks for the brief baseball history lesson.

Fecaltime!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by measton
2009-09-21 11:43:43

Because management/ownership made 15 cents more per softball.

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-09-21 12:37:54

I coach a softball team

Somehow or another, I get the distinct feeling there’s not a bunch of girls out there chanting, “Coach Fecaltime, coach Fecaltime!”

Or does your handle stand for Female Californians Time?

Comment by fecaltime!
2009-09-21 19:40:10

“”Somehow or another, I get the distinct feeling there’s not a bunch of girls out there chanting, “Coach Fecaltime, coach Fecaltime!””"

some guy gave me this nickname on another site, my original name was Fathertime! but I annoyed this guy so I became fecaltime to him…I rather liked that name, so I have kept it!

Fecaltime!

 
 
Comment by mathguy
2009-09-21 13:07:04

come on.. this is really the stuff you want to worry about? You could just as easily look at the situation and say, why are they skimping on the quality of softballs used in training these kids? Good equipment does wonders for good performance.

Look at it this way instead. You were given 35 balls for practice. You set aside 5 to be in better condition and not have the covers ripped off from 3000 at bats during practice…

The $25 difference is less than 1 day’s interest on what most of these kids parent’s are screwing themselves on for mortgages. And you have it spread out over 12 or 13 kids??? There is penny pinching, and then there is just being a tightwad…. Try to keep some perspective so you don’t cross over…

Comment by fecaltime!
2009-09-21 19:36:58

“”Look at it this way instead. You were given 35 balls for practice. You set aside 5 to be in better condition and not have the covers ripped off from 3000 at bats during practice…

The $25 difference is less than 1 day’s interest on what most of these kids parent’s are screwing themselves on for mortgages. And you have it spread out over 12 or 13 kids??? There is penny pinching, and then there is just being a tightwad…. Try to keep some perspective so you don’t cross over…”"

To me it was NOT a matter of the 25 dollars, it was a matter of pointless waste and consumption. Spread out the softballs over all the teams in all the cities for fall ball and summer ball, and I bet you have a very large amount of new softballs. There are a million things you might consider penny-pinching but you add them all up and it is a lot more than a penny, but once again, for me it is also about waste of materials. It was one very small example of waste that I came across.

Fecaltime!

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 07:23:18

“We know we still have a lot to do, in conjunction with nations around the world, to strengthen the rules governing financial markets and ensure that we never again find ourselves in the precarious situation we found ourselves in just one year ago.” ~ President Barack Obama ..

The Obama administration has proposed an overhaul of U.S. financial regulations including oversight of the systemic risk large financial institutions pose to the economy, new ways for the government to dismantle failed companies and a regulator to oversee financial products for consumers.
< The philosopher George Santayana observed in the early twentieth century that people unfamiliar with history are doomed to repeat it. When the New Deal disconnected the U.S. dollar from the Constitution in 1934 the power to “regulate money” became strictly a matter of politics and banking. The dollar, fixed as something of substance by the Constitution, was abandoned - even though the most astonishing period of progress in human history had taken place under the money system set into place by the Founding Fathers.

The Obama administration proposes to make matters worse.

When government management of the “dollar” destroys it, what will replace it?

Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 10:39:40

But we went from being a nation of subsistence farmers to a nation of comfortable ‘middle classness’ during the period from the Depression until just recently. A pretty good run for a doomed economic model. And it was only when we ‘tweaked’ the regulations on financial firms that we got this last bust.

Maybe Santayana was referring to those who forget the dangers of deregulation. And how hard life was for most in America back in the ‘good old’ (gold standard/no regulation) days.

 
Comment by jfp
2009-09-21 10:48:05

I believe bottle caps eventually replace the dollar in the future.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 14:30:07

We could always bring back trading stamps.

As for FDR and the New Deal…

Did most of you people sleep through history class? FDR was caught between a rock and hard place and the pressure was increasing. His first move was to let the situation run it’s course, but the financiers weren’t willing to change anything they had been doing, so this meant the problems that created the mess weren’t going to get fixed.

There was also a coup attempt. That’s right. A group of businessmen actually planned and almost executed a coup d’ tat on the US government. Yeah, ain’t gonna hear about that one in the MSM are you? You can google it.

Third was the rise of the workers unions. Worse, there was rising popularity for communism among the working class. The trick was to throw the workers the bone of unions but without communist control.

Fourth was the war. WW2 started before FDR took office. They knew we would eventually have to get involved. There really was no way to stay neutral. But again popular sentiment was to not get involved militarily.

No matter what he did he was damned if did an damned if he didn’t and was not getting a whole lot of cooperation from the very people who caused the problem in the first place. So he took a page from Alexander the Great and the Gordian Knot.

The New Deal wasn’t just about the US. Is was a response to serious geopolitical catastrophe. Something most Americans seem to have absolutely no grasp of.

Comment by Skip
2009-09-21 15:20:34

WW2 started before FDR took office.

Yet another thing to blame on Coolidge.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by pmseatac
2009-09-21 17:30:11

FDR’s first term started in 1933. WW2 started in 1939. You need to re-check your history.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 17:32:24

Got it. See below. You posted at almost the exact same time.

Good catch!

 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 17:30:06

My mistake. He WAS in office when WW2 started. 1933-45.

And you guys didn’t catch this? I don’t know which is worse. :lol:

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 17:31:19

WW2 - 1939 - 45

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-09-21 18:08:33

I caught it immediately too but sometimes details need not muddle good points. But only if I agree with them. :-)

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 07:26:59

“NPR’s Guy Raz’s interview with Dr. Ron Paul” (excerpt)

Raz: If it was left to market devices, how do you envision that working to help insure all Americans?

Paul: Well, about opposite of what we should expect when we go to total government. And we have a pretty good record of showing what we did in this country up until the 1960s. I recall working in a church hospital for $3 an hour and nobody was ever turned away and nobody was left out in the streets. And just think of all the church hospitals that have been closed down because the invasion of government into the health care industry.

Raz: But who would pay for them?

Paul: Well, who pays for the Shriner hospitals? Charity takes care of it, the churches take care of it. When government takes care of it, the bureaucrats get paid. And insurance companies become the lobbyists, the drug companies become the lobbyists, the management companies become the lobbyists, doctors get squeezed, the patients get squeezed.

You can’t put all these corporations in between the doctors and the patients. You have a form of corporatism, which motivates the type of system that we have now, and it’s not any better. Some worry that Obama would give us socialized medicine, but he isn’t. He’s giving us a continuation of corporatism. He’s forcing people to buy insurance. The insurance companies love it! They love to see 20 or 30 million more people being forced into the system, and they will have more customers.

Comment by measton
2009-09-21 07:46:50

Medical care was cheap when all you did was apply leaches. Is he saying we need more places for people to go and die cheaply.

I’m pretty sure the churces do not have the resources to pay for todays medical care.

Comment by Skip
2009-09-21 08:00:25

Visit a Shriners Children’s Hospital some time. They have the latest and greatest.

As an aside, there are several churches and religious organizations that are extremely wealthy. Some even own their own airplanes, TV channels, vacation properties, etc.

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-09-21 08:52:27

OT, but I just learned, if you become the highest level Freemason, and then you can become a Shriner.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-09-21 09:06:46

The origin of the Freemansons organization is Arabic. Not the fanatical creeps, but the mystical side, if my resources are correct.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 09:51:15

Freemansons

LOL - Freudian slip?

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 09:53:28

The origin of the Freemansons organization is Arabic

Really curious as to your source on this. I haven’t heard anything like that, and it’s not mentioned on the Wikipedia page, for instance.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 10:42:04

secret society of insurance salesmen

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-09-21 10:42:38

packman
lol. hurry up and screw up.

Teachings and practices of the fraternal order of Free and Accepted Masons, the largest worldwide secret society. Originating with the guilds of medieval stonemasons, the organization became an honorary society in the 17th and 18th century, adopting the rites and trappings of ancient religious orders and chivalric brotherhoods. The first association of lodges, the Grand Lodge, was founded in England in 1717, and Freemasonry soon spread to other countries in the British Empire. Freemasons took an active role in the American Revolution and later in U.S. politics, and in the 19th century popular fears of their influence led to the Anti-Masonic movement. Membership is extended only to adult males willing to express belief in a Supreme Being and the immortality of the soul. In Latin countries, the lodges have often attracted freethinkers and anticlerical types; in Anglo-Saxon nations, membership has mostly been drawn from white Protestants. Freemasonry has also given rise to social organizations such as the Ancient Arabic Order of the Noble Mystic Shrine, or Shriners.

I was in the bookstore yesterday, and read something that was evidently not based in fact. I stand corrected, and thank you.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 11:28:10

Freemasonry has also given rise to social organizations such as the Ancient Arabic Order of the Noble Mystic Shrine, or Shriners.

Interesting - I didn’t know that Shriners was Arabic nor that it was an offshoot of Freemasons.

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-09-21 13:20:04

packman- this was on a Freemasons website:
“Of all the Freemason charitable organizations, the best known is the Shriners. The Shriners are famous for their vibrant parades and their work with physically challenged children. Indeed, there are currently 22 Shriners Charitable Children’s Hospitals in existence.

In order to become a Shriner, a member must first be a Freemason. All North American Shriners adhere to the basic principles of Freemasonry: relief, truth, and brotherly love. The Shriner mantra is: “Pleasure without intemperance, hospitality without rudeness and jollity without coarseness.”

The Famous Fez
The hats are part of the Shriners rich tradition. They derive from the holy city of Fez, Morocco, and the hats were chosen as part of the Shrine’s Arabic theme, which is the foundation of the modern Shriners movement. Despite this theme, the Shriners are in no way connected to Islam. It is a largely secular group that is focused on the bonds of brotherhood. Shriners belong to the Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine for North American (AAONMS). An international fraternity, the Shriners boast 500,000 members throughout the United States, Mexico, Canada, and the Republic of Panama. In total, there are 191 Shrine Temples in these four geographical locations.

Regardless of their origin (I’ve read numerous claims), I do resepect the good they do in the world, and especially helping needy kids.

 
 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-09-21 08:20:42

This is the first time I don’t agree with Ron Paul on this health Insurance debate .Saying that charity can pay for health care is unrealistic I think .
The insurance companies will only approve a plan that gets them more
chosen customers ,while they have the option of throwing high risk
customers to other entities .
When Insurance Companies get to the point where they come between the Doctor and the Patient ,as Ron Paul suggests ,it
corrupts medical care .Many Doctors have admitted that the system is broken . Maybe medical care should be the one area that the money is pooled by non-profit entities ,providing they have entities policing the operation for fraud .

Comment by Anon In DC
2009-09-21 09:04:52

It sounds like he’s saying charity can pay for the needy, not everyone. Of the 30 - 40 million who don’t have insurance, my guess would be 10% are needy. The rest - illegals, young people who don’t want it, self-insured, ect…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by scdave
2009-09-21 09:12:10

young people who don’t want it, self-insured ?

See some of these kids on extreme fuel or what ever station it is with their reckless bike riding, skateboards, snowboarding, etc…Who pay’s for their “self inflicted” reckless care ??

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 16:10:40

So the 45,000 who die each for lack of health care are NOT evidence that charity is not enough?

Now I’m really confused.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 19:21:20

So the 45,000 who die each for lack of health care are NOT evidence that charity is not enough?

Now I’m really confused.

Boy, you’re quite the propaganda sucker.

 
 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 10:52:10

Ron Paul seems like a nice guy who means well, but he traffics in even more simplistic, over-optimistic explanations than the two major parties’ normal reps. Everything will somehow be fine if we can just make it like it was in the good old days. When charity took care of the losers and everyone else did as well as they should in the magical free market.

My question to his followers is this, “When has this ever been the case in human history? When have we had a free market that didn’t have crashes, poverty, and corruption on a scale greater than today? Or is this a yet-to-be-achieved ideal? Kind of like a candy-crapping unicorn(TM)?”

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 11:47:12

Speaking as a RP supporter, I personally would say:

- I’m not aware of any truly free markets, ever.

- We probably came closest though in the 1800’s in the U.S.

- When regarding the pitfalls/limitations of the past (poverty, slavery, etc.) keep in mind the context of history. Slavery for instance was a lot more accepted in the past, and in fact is still used in many areas today.

- Also keep in mind advances in industry/technology. For instance you can’t draw a cause-and-effect relationship between reduction in poverty and increase in government control just because the two have coincided timewise. Most reduction in poverty has been due to technological innovation (farming improvements, electricity, etc.) which has been in spite of increased government control - not because of it.

- Also (something virtually no one accounts for) keep in mind demographics. E.g. I see the U.S. often compared unfavorably to more socialistic countries like those in Scandanavia, etc. - but one thing never discussed is how those countries are typically very much more homogeneous than the U.S., with a much lower percentage of poorer minorities than the U.S.

- As the U.S. has advance timewise and become more socialistic, I would say that indeed our financial crashes haven’t been as spectacular as in years past (including the 1800’s). However:
- We’ve typically had longer recovery periods in post-1900 crashes.
- As a tradeoff to the “smoothness” of the engineered markets, the general welfare of our economy has been dragged down over time. E.g. we are extremely, extremely broke right now, with no signs of recovery except (once again) a superficial one.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 12:43:32

Thanks, packman. I think we agree on a lot. One, there’s never been a true free market. Two, the closest we’ve come may be the US in the 19th century. I agree with both those points.

Here’s where we disagree: “We’ve typically had longer recovery periods in post-1900 crashes.”

From wikipedia:
“In the United States, the Long Depression began with the Panic of 1873. The National Bureau of Economic Research dates the contraction following the Panic as lasting from October 1873 to March 1879. At 65 months, it is the longest contraction identified by the NBER, eclipsing the Great Depression’s 43 months of contraction.
“Following the end of the episode in 1879, the US economy would remain unstable, experiencing recessions for 114 of the 253 months until January 1901.”

So we had devastatingly long contractions back in the closest approximation to a free market that we’ve had yet. Throw in horrific poverty and corruption that we all agree existed then, and ‘free markets’ with no regulation don’t really seem like such a panacea.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 13:08:35

Re: 1873 Long Depression

The main cause of that depression was the railroad boom. What was the primary enabler of the railroad boom? Land grants to the railroad companies by the U.S. government; to specific railroad companies and for free. These companies turned around and sold much of their grants to the logging companies for huge profit, fueling the railroad speculation.

Sound familiar?

Even then (also from Wikipedia):

Was it a Recession?

Some economic historians argue that the Long Depression was actually a deflationary period but not a time of falling production and GDP. The deflation thesis has led to the claim that the Long Depression was not truly a depression at all because production and real GDP grew throughout the period (see table below). The confusion comes from the fact that prices were falling (hence, deflation) because of greater industrial productivity and the presence of sound money (gold and silver).

One economist to make this argument is Murray Rothbard of the Austrian school, who studied the period extensively. Rothbard writes:

As Friedman and Schwartz admit, the decade from 1869 to 1879 saw a 3-percent-perannum increase in money national product, an outstanding real national product growth of 6.8 percent per year in this period, and a phenomenal rise of 4.5 percent per year in real product per capita. Even the alleged “monetary contraction” never took place, the money supply increasing by 2.7 percent per year in this period. From 1873 through 1878, before another spurt of monetary expansion, the total supply of bank money rose from $1.964 billion to $2.221 billion—a rise of 13.1 percent or 2.6 percent per year. In short, a modest but definite rise, and scarcely a contraction.

It should be clear, then, that the “great depression” of the 1870s is merely a myth—a myth brought about by misinterpretation of the fact that prices in general fell sharply during the entire period. Indeed they fell from the end of the Civil War until 1879. Friedman and Schwartz estimated that prices in general fell from 1869 to 1879 by 3.8 percent per annum. Unfortunately, most historians and economists are conditioned to believe that steadily and sharply falling prices must result in depression: hence their amazement at the obvious prosperity and economic growth during this era.

Another important factor was that labor productivity in the U.S. was growing throughout the period. Between 1869 and 1879 manufacturing output per man-hour grew from 14.7 to 16.2 (1958 = 100).

While the Great Depression’s contraction technically ended after 43 months, it was far deeper (25% unemployment) and the state of general depression lasted far longer - we didn’t really recover until starting in 1946, and then only after most of our competition on the world market had been destroyed.

And then we have the current recession/depression - end date TBD.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 14:27:24

People refered to it as the Great Depression until the next one came along. So to the people involved (if not to modern economists!), it was serious. And I was just using that as one extreme example. Look through an economic history of the 19th century and you’ll see many devastating, some long-term, contractions in the US. Not to mention horrific working conditions, environmental destruction, monopolies, and corruption of monstrous scale. All of which it seems we would get again if we ‘freed’ the markets from regulation. I never hear a reasonable explanation of how these same things would be avoided if we followed Ron Paul’s advice.

We’re told it just will magically sort itself out, just like it never has before. Ever.

 
 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2009-09-21 07:53:58

“You have a form of corporatism,”

Mr. Ru Paul, we already have corporatized everything which is why we need and will have a public option.

Where were you on this issue 2000-2008?

 
Comment by oxide
2009-09-21 08:19:46

He’s forcing people to buy insurance. The insurance companies love it!

So is Ron Paul in favor of the Public Option?

Comment by packman
2009-09-21 08:30:17

Bad logic. The public option *is* forcing people to buy insurance. Not sure what your point is.

Comment by oxide
2009-09-21 08:43:52

I’m referring to the phrase “the insurance companies love it.” If there were a public option, then people would still have to buy insurance, but not from for-profit insurance companies.

The mandate itself is a touchy subject. The liberals are pretty divided on whether to have a mandate at all. However, the liberal view is that *IF* there is a mandate, people shouldn’t be forced to buy a plan from a private company. That’s why it’s a public “option.”

Private companies are definitely salivating at the propect of cobbling together a crappy product, knowing that they will rake in government money in the form of subsidies to poor to buy said mandated crappy product. Why do you think the lobbyists are spending millions on lobbying FOR the mandate and AGAINST the public option?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-09-21 09:35:08

I, for one, can’t wait to kick my POS self-employed “insurance” to the curb and go onto the public option.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 09:56:34

You can bet that if a public option is offered, the private insurance companies will get involved somehow and take their cut in some fashion. Dollars to doughnuts a plan is already in the works.

 
Comment by polly
2009-09-21 10:38:08

They would be come subcontractors for claims processing. No one else has the people in place. Medicare administration wouldn’t be able to expand quickly enough.

All the folks they currently pay to figure out ways to deny claims (and cancel policies on those whose claims are valid and properly coded) can move down a rung on the pay ladder to do this. No more bonuses for canceling Aunt Mary’s chemo!

 
 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 11:08:23

I think it’s Paul who is using bad logic. He says that in a free market we’d somehow not have all the people ‘in-between’ the patient and his health care, thus saving money. Well, we have free market care now don’t we? And a lot of free market in-betweeners. And his belief that charity once cared for all destitutes in America is sheer delusion. It’s as if he learned history by watching ‘Little House On the Prairie’.

Simple answers to complex questions. He reminds me of Reagan.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-09-21 13:50:50

we have free market care now don’t we?

Uh, no. We have Medicare, Medicaid, the HMO Act of 1973, the FDA, the federal government-run Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ), the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR), the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), the National Institutes of Health, Substance Abuse and the Mental Health Services Administration, plus extensive state regulation of medical practice and health insurance.

charity once cared for all destitutes in America is sheer delusion.

So how come there wasn’t mass famine before the War on Poverty?

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 14:32:43

How does medicare etc make my private insurance company have so many people between me and my doctors?

No mass famine before (or after) the War on Poverty, but puh-lenty of hunger. Ever read any Dickens? It was like that here too.

 
Comment by Jon
2009-09-21 14:43:48

Jeez, it seems like Mr. Paul is trying to move the nation’s health care funding straight into the hands of our televangelists. The only group that scares me more than the government and health insurance companies.

 
Comment by ahansen
2009-09-21 22:55:03

“…so how come there wasn’t mass famine before the War on Poverty?”

Well, actually, that’s why they had a “War on POVERTY” here in the US.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 07:27:14

Retirement Living

Sept. 21, 2009, 12:01 a.m. EDT
Retirement? Good luck with that
Financial crisis reveals U.S. retirement-system’s holes with painful clarity

By Andrea Coombes, MarketWatch

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — The destructive effects of the financial crisis may be waning, but your retirement account won’t soon forget. Savers lost 40% or more in the downturn — a collective $2.1 trillion disappeared from 401(k) and IRA assets in 2008 alone — and while the recent stock-market recovery may feel good, it’s done little to stem a mounting crisis in the retirement system in the United States.

It’s not just investments that are the problem: Social Security needs financial resuscitation, and the bursting of the housing bubble that helped spark the financial crisis vaporized the home equity many people were counting on to fund their golden years. Corporations are curtailing traditional pensions and older Americans are being forced to work longer to make up the difference.

Older workers’ unemployment rate is lower than the national average, but it often takes them longer to find a job. Kerry Kiley, a regional manager at staffing firm Adecco, talks about which industries are hiring. Stacey Delo reports.

Where does this leave our retirement plans? Ask a middle-class American when he plans to retire, and more often than not you’ll get a wry chuckle and “I’ll be working until I die.” The attempt at humor masks what may be close to reality for some people.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-09-21 09:36:13

My father’s following the “work ’til I die” plan as we speak. He’s 84 years old.

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-09-21 14:01:59

“Savers lost 40% or more in the downturn — a collective $2.1 trillion disappeared from 401(k) and IRA assets in 2008 alone…”

“Savers” didn’t lose a thing except they’re getting less than the usual rate of interest on their CDs and Treasurys. It’s the “investors” and “speculators” who lost.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 16:15:36

There is no “…may be close to reality…” to it.

It IS reality.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 07:35:34

If you’re about to run out of unemployment checks, here’s good news from Washington, that hallowed city with the endless cornucopia of money. . . .

A bill offered by Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Wash., and expected to pass easily would provide 13 weeks of extended unemployment benefits for more than 300,000 jobless people who live in states with unemployment rates of at least 8.5 percent and who are scheduled to run out of benefits by the end of September.

The 13-week extension would supplement the 26 weeks of benefits most states offer and the federally funded extensions of up to 53 weeks that Congress approved in legislation last year and in the stimulus bill enacted last February. (Note: Some cynics say that keeping people on the dole for a year or more tends to lower their incentive for job hunting. Hard to imagine, isn’t it?)

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-09-21 07:59:40

That can is getting so dented from all their kicking that it won’t hardly roll much further.

 
Comment by peter a
2009-09-21 11:55:56

I have a friend that will welcome that news. He got laid of his job 7 months ago, Got a under the table job and is living it up on unemployment

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-09-21 14:58:19

He should be very careful, they can call you in for an “interview” and you must show them you been looking for work the last 7 months…

sending resumes at least 3 a week also just print out the ads..and keep it all in a folder just in case…..if is mail send a few and get a delivery confirmation…again just in case

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 07:43:34

Wells Fargo’s Ticking Time Bomb: Credit Default Swaps On Commercial Mortgages.- Business Insider

Outside experts hired by Wells Fargo to examine its books are reportedly shocked at the bank’s exposure to derivatives trades it took on when it acquired Wachovia may trigger huge losses at the bank, Teri Buhl reports at BankImplode.com

It appears that Wachovia wrote credit default swaps on the junior tranches of commercial mortgage backed securities it was selling, which means that it is on the hook for losses in the riskiest CMBS tranches it sold. Wells itself might not even know the size of its exposure, Buhl reports.

From Buhl:

According to sources currently working out these loans at Wells Fargo when selling tranches of commercial mortgage-backed securities below the super senior tranche, Wachovia promised to pay the buyer’s risk premium by writing credit default swap contracts against these subordinate bonds. Should the junior tranches eventually default, then the bank is on the hook. Dan Alpert of Westwood Capital says these were practices that he saw going on in the market at large.

Alpert says in reference to how he saw CMBS trades get done, “These guys would say ‘We’ll just take back that silly credit risk you’re worried about.’ Of course that was a nice increase to earnings when they got the security sold. The bank made money at the time.”

Buhl points out that investors might be caught off-guard if Wells has to start paying out on the swaps it sold. Wells, like most banks, almost certainly holds the credit default swap liabilities off balance sheet and most likely does not recognize them as a loss until they actually have to pay, Buhl writes.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 11:50:21

“Ticking Time Bomb”

A closely watched pot never boils over.

Comment by ATE-UP
2009-09-21 17:01:01

Prof B. It depends on what you got, in the pot! If it was Oly, it would do more than boil over, it would become a black hole or something.

 
 
 
Comment by measton
2009-09-21 07:49:42

There was a guy on the radio the other day saying that instead of paying unemployment the gov should help companies create half time positions since it is a little more expensive for the company. At least that way people are still getting up and going to work and retaining a skill. We should not pay for people to sit at home either create jobs or create incentives for companies to create more jobs.

Comment by Skip
2009-09-21 08:04:23

That sounds like a great idea. I can see companies laying off all of their full-time employees to take advantage of this free government money.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-09-21 08:04:29

I don’t understand why taking a “job” as an intern is not allowed under unemployment.

It would serve the same purpose as a part time job and would make your resume look up to-date…

Nobody really like doing nothing and it doesn’t take long for you to get all those time consuming projects out of the way, like I-tuning your cd collection.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 16:19:18

Because even the bad ol’e government recognizes that working for free is not really a job, but exploitation.

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-09-21 17:08:58

ecofeco-
Can you imagine how fast companies would lay off their paid workers, and take on all that free labor.
That reminds me of the soft heart/soft brain idiots who volunteer for Kaiser, the HMO. They get a free lunch, meanwhile the bonus machine is handing out checks to the paid employees . Its costs $ to get to Kaiser for pete’s sake. What a great gig for a multi-B$ non-profit.

If you want to do some good in society, drive a cancer patient to their appt. You don’t do for free, for a behemoth financial structure like Kaiser. Oy Vey!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 17:35:50

I’ve been trying to explain to aNYCdj that any unpaid work for any organization that makes money is nothing but exploitation.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-09-21 18:37:55

Eco AW:

What if I want to? why can’t I to have a choice in this matter? If I choose to DJ a party for FREE its my choice, so why not learn new skills?

I doubt they would layoff paid workers because i could up and “quit” anytime.Its for MY benefit too….

====drive a cancer patient to their appt.==== what good is that going to do in getting me a JOB?

Nothing …unless driving cancer patients IS the job you are looking for!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by measton
2009-09-21 07:52:46

The Health and Human Services Department is objecting to a mailer that Humana recently sent Medicare recipients.

It warned that “millions of seniors and disabled individuals could lose many … important benefits and services.” The bills in Congress would cut payments to private insurance plans that serve about one-fourth of seniors. Government experts say those plans are overpaid, and lawmakers insist it won’t affect benefits.

Give us the money or granny gets it.

We may all disagree on the public plan, but I hope all of us object to the private public partnership which is all about stripping money from taxpayers.

Comment by CA renter
2009-09-22 02:23:24

Definitely oppose a public-private partnership.

It’s like “socializing the losses and privatizing the gains” is being done out in the open these days, and nobody is saying a word!

 
 
Comment by ATE-UP
2009-09-21 07:58:34

An astute comment from Market Watch, after they said “Five indicators are rising, this is the end of the recesssion”.

Positive contributors:

1)interest rate spread (FED manipulation)
2)stock prices (current sucker’s bubble)
3)building permits ($8,000 directly from the government)
4)consumer expectations (pumped up by Ozbama’s plans and schemes and so on)

Negative contributors

1)real money supply (money isnt circulating cause zombie-banks are broke and they know it by hoarding this cash)
2)jobless claims (its the depression, stupid)
3)capital goods orders (who in his right mind is ordering things when the consumer is unable and/or unwilling to spend more in his way down to slavery)

Conclusion: Excluding green shoots, wishful thinking, manipulated stock markets, Fed pumping a ruined dollar in the system and government’s socialistic intervention in the free market, the Depression continues to deepen.

Happy morning to everybody

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-09-21 08:03:03

Consumer expectations? Why not just measure the impending economic rebound using the Christmas lists of America’s first graders.

Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-09-21 08:31:49

edgewaterjohn ….Funny ..but true . Would the power brokers change their game plan now after investing so much money into
this faulty plan of action to keep us out of depression by throwing money at a dead horse and a bottomless pit of loss .

 
 
Comment by ylekiot
2009-09-21 08:16:14

Gotta love the sarcasm early in the am…

Happy happy joy joy!

 
 
Comment by goedeck
2009-09-21 08:25:33

Sky Lodge, claiming $5.6 million error, seeks bankruptcy protection

http://www.parkrecord.com/ci_13368547?source=most_viewed

[from the comments]
Mumbo jumbo
Salt Lake City, UT

Sounds familiar, doesn’t it? A computer error, an accounting error, a miscommunication, a misunderstanding…absolutely fascinating.

Its never revenues didn’t meet or exceed expenses. Its never that the business went bankrupt because the economy sucks and it didn’t work.

At this rate Main St is going to start looking like downtown Flint in the not too distant future.

Hang on.
oooops
Salt Lake City, UT

sorry boss…wrong button.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-09-21 09:15:26

“Sky Lodge, claiming $5.6 million error, seeks bankruptcy protection”

I just _hate_ it when I make a $5.6 million error while balancing my checkbook… LOL…

 
 
Comment by dude
2009-09-21 08:33:46

http://dqnews.com/Charts/Monthly-Charts/LA-Times-Charts/ZIPLAT.aspx

Dataquick numbers for socal in August are out.

Comment by jane
2009-09-21 18:39:01

Dude, thank you very much for making this available. I don’t live in CA, but I used to have a consulting client in San Diego, and therefore have a sentimental attachment to the area. This was about ten years ago. I used to like going there, because there were absolutely no mosquitos and the weather was fine. OTOH, I did feel like an old frump, coming from the comparatively austere unisex button down shirt culture of New England. Didn’t do anything to dampen my enjoyment of the area, though. I figure that client paid for two years of number one kid’s tuition.

 
 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-09-21 08:36:04

“The fact that we have just 15 units left [out of 31], even in such difficult times, is remarkable.”
The $12.5 million penthouse has been under agreement for months. More than 50 percent of the remaining, primarily single-floor, 4,200-square-foot units, which start at $3.9 million, have been sold.
“What 1706 does is set a precedent, and future development will try to capture this market,” said Joseph Zuritsky, who is also president of Parkway Corp.

philly.com/philly/business/20090920_Soaring_Above_the_Crisis.html

 
Comment by ATE-UP
2009-09-21 08:54:21

Quote from “Mish”. Global Economic Analysis.

“Consumers and banks both are suffering from a massive hangover. Their willingness and ability to drink is gone. No matter how many pints of whiskey Bernanke sets in front of someone passed out on the floor, liquor sales will not rise”.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 11:48:55

How about if he opens their mouths and pours the liquor straight down their throats? Would that help stimulate them?

Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 13:07:29

And there’s always enemas! We’ll push that string one way or another.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 15:29:46

The enema has already been administered. What purpose did Cash-4-Clunkers and Dough-4-Dumps served if not to clear out impacted inventory of cars and houses?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 08:58:30

Stories
City Lights News
Experts

By Don Bauder | Published Wednesday, Sept. 16, 2009

The British royalty demands performance from its experts. Last November, Queen Elizabeth visited the London School of Economics to inquire why none of its experts had anticipated the financial devastation. Chastened, a group of Britain’s most eminent economists wrote her a letter, confessing that they were guilty of “wishful thinking combined with hubris.” Figuratively bowing to the queen, they stated, “In summary, your majesty, the failure to foresee the timing, extent, and severity of the crisis and to head it off, while it had many causes, was principally a failure of the collective imagination of many bright people, both in this country and internationally, to understand the risks to the system as a whole.”

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-09-21 09:58:00

Wow, do you think our esteemed economists would do the same thing to the American people? ;)

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 10:29:48

Read the paragraph following the one I posted for the answer (which you already know…).

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-09-21 11:05:36

I keep tellin’ ya Mr. Bear…it’s SIR Greenisspent! :-)

It’s not nice to make the Queen look like a fool…

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 09:17:23

U.S. mortgage delinquencies set record: Equifax.

NEW YORK (Reuters) - High U.S. unemployment keeps pushing up the rate of mortgage delinquencies, which could in turn drive personal bankruptcies and home foreclosures, monthly data from the Equifax Inc credit bureau showed on Monday.

Among U.S. homeowners with mortgages, a record 7.58 percent were at least 30 days late on payments in August, up from 7.32 percent in July, according to the data obtained exclusively by Reuters.

August marked the fourth consecutive monthly increase in delinquencies, and the report showed an accelerating pace. By comparison, 4.89 percent of mortgages were 30 days past due in August 2008, while in August 2007, the rate was 3.44 percent, Equifax data showed.

The rate of subprime mortgage delinquencies now tops 41 percent, up from about 39 percent in each of the prior five months.

The results, which correlate with consumer bankruptcy filings, suggest U.S. homeowners remain under financial stress despite signs of improving sentiment and fundamentals in the U.S. housing market.

August bankruptcy filings were up 32 percent from a year earlier, compared with a 35 percent year-over-year increase in July.

Still, while more Americans were late with mortgage payments, they are keeping up with other bills. The proportion of credit card accounts at least 60 days past due was down in August for the third straight month, while subprime card delinquencies also fell.

Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-09-21 09:22:51

Still, while more Americans were late with mortgage payments, they are keeping up with other bills. The proportion of credit card accounts at least 60 days past due was down in August for the third straight month, while subprime card delinquencies also fell.

Sounds like many FBs are making the decision to stiff their mortgage lenders first and keep the rest of the party rollin’.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 09:29:23

The eBay auction for this 1963 Pontiac LeMans Tempest started out innocently enough. Obtained after owner died. Appears to have original interior but no motor, no transmission. Body has a little rust and some dents. There’s stuff in the trunk, but no key to open it. Opening bid nine days ago was a mere $500. After one week, eBay seller 123ecklin will pocket $226,521 before auction fees. What happened between Day 1 and Day 9 is an amazing story.

The car’s plexiglass windows, unusual suspension setup and a dash plate bearing the name of a racetrack tipped the owner to its racing history. But what he didn’t know is that the car is one of only six 1963 Pontiac LeMans Tempest Super Duty coupes ever made. Hemmings recently did a story on the rare cars in which they listed all ever built. This one looks to have been driven by Stan Antlocer and was the fastest drag car in 1963 before disappearing.

Reading through the questions on the auction gives us reason to believe the seller truly didn’t know the car’s provenance. In his answers, he seems both surprised by the car’s potential value as well as overwhelmed by the attention. He turned down an offer of $160,000 to end the auction early because he feared getting negative eBay feedback. That decision paid off. With only seven minutes remaining, the highest offer was $95,000. When the virtual gavel fell, eBayer ccsi2000 had bought a very rare, if a little rusty, LeMans for $226,521.

Comment by DD
2009-09-21 09:46:35

Awesome. Great auction story.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-09-21 09:59:54

DD,

Did you used to post under the name of desertdweller?

 
 
Comment by ATE-UP
2009-09-21 12:13:59

Great story. Poopin’ in tall cotten!

 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2009-09-21 13:12:25

I guess American cars do hold their value.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 16:25:05

Lucky SOB.

 
 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-09-21 09:36:36

There’s More to Answer for in the Wells Fargo Subprime Suits

.. (T)he bank is facing several lawsuits charging that it engaged in illegal discriminatory lending practices by allegedly selling high-cost subprime loans primarily to minority borrowers.

[...]

The lawsuit also follows a recent Chicago Reporter analysis of mortgage data submitted by Wells Fargo to the federal government. That study found that, in 2007, Wells Fargo sold high-cost, subprime loans more often to its highest-earning African-American borrowers in Chicago than to its lowest-earning white borrowers. According to the study, in 2007, about 34 percent of African Americans earning $120,000 or more received high cost mortgages from Wells Fargo in the Chicago metro area, while less than 22 percent of white borrowers earning less than $40,000 received high-cost mortgages from the lender.

What? I’ve been assured repeatedly that a modern-day financial entity would never do such a thing!

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-09-21 11:13:10

Yes, but,but,but…that’s only x1 bank, and Chic-ago is only x1 city out of many scattered about…I’m certain such “behavior” is contained locally. ;-)

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 11:32:16

They must have somehow been ‘forced’ to do it by government regulations. :wink:

 
 
Comment by measton
2009-09-21 10:09:40

They all got bonuses for pushing subprime loans.

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-09-21 10:19:12

David G. Kittle- wrote this article, but it isn’t disclosed, except in the comment section(and I confirmed it), he is the
CMB, Chairman of the Mortgage Bankers Association (MBA)

Opposing view: Extend, expand tax credit
Letting incentive expire would jeopardize the housing recovery.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/09/opposing-view-extend-expand-tax-credit.html

I don’t read this paper. It came from a blog link.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 10:40:44

Dept. of Labor data for unemployment is out for August. This gives a deeper look than the headline CPI data that’s provided at the beginning of the month. The Exhaustion Rate of benefits, and the Duration of unemployment continue their updward pace unabated:

……….. Exh Rate….Duration
01/31/2008 35.50 15.18
02/29/2008 35.84 15.15
03/31/2008 36.35 15.19
04/30/2008 36.63 15.18
05/31/2008 36.80 15.18
06/30/2008 37.23 15.27
07/31/2008 37.79 15.25
08/31/2008 38.18 15.26
09/30/2008 38.99 15.33
10/31/2008 39.24 15.22
11/30/2008 40.09 15.14
12/31/2008 41.49 14.87
01/31/2009 42.33 14.61
02/28/2009 43.70 14.61
03/31/2009 45.51 14.89
04/30/2009 47.07 15.21
05/31/2009 49.23 15.68
06/30/2009 49.87 16.21
07/31/2009 50.70 16.61
08/31/2009 52.02 17.10

Though note that these are 12-month running averages, not actual monthly numbers. Nevertheless they indicate that the employment situation continues to indicate zero green shoots. The is also borne out by the unabated fall in the number of civilian employed:

2008-01-01 146317
2008-02-01 146075
2008-03-01 146023
2008-04-01 146257
2008-05-01 145974
2008-06-01 145738
2008-07-01 145596
2008-08-01 145273
2008-09-01 145029
2008-10-01 144657
2008-11-01 144144
2008-12-01 143338
2009-01-01 142099
2009-02-01 141748
2009-03-01 140887
2009-04-01 141007
2009-05-01 140570
2009-06-01 140196
2009-07-01 140041
2009-08-01 139649

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 10:55:15

Naked Gun: 91-year-old nude Fla. man makes arrest
AP

LAKE WORTH, Fla. – Authorities say a 91-year-old South Florida man jumped out of bed naked and held an intruder at gunpoint until deputies arrived.

The Palm Beach County Sheriff’s Office said Robert E. Thompson woke up Saturday morning after a would-be burglar climbed his backyard fence and was met by his charging dog, Rettt, a Rottweiler and Doberman pinscher mix. Thompson heard the commotion, grabbed his .38-caliber revolver and phoned police without ever getting dressed.

Deputies say Thompson fired a warning shot as 26-year-old Jose Pasqual started to come toward him. Thompson kept his gun trained on Pasqual until deputies arrived.

Pasqual was booked in the Palm Beach County Jail on a burglary charge and did not immediately have an attorney.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-09-21 11:20:32

Oh, I love burglar/dog stories…like the fella that broke into a house, went out the backdoor towards the garage…oops, (wuff,wuff… growling, snarling,snapping teeth)…over the fence goeth burglar missing some of natures cushion seat flesh…the story ends well…burglar got caught…homeowner got sued by same. :-)

Comment by Al
2009-09-21 11:41:48

“story ends well…burglar got caught…homeowner got sued by same.”

You’re saying the burglar sued the home/dog owner? If I were said homeowner, I’d be suing the burglar for the emotional stress of my dog.

Comment by milkcrate
2009-09-21 12:29:07

Better a call to the morgue to take the home invader away.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by hwy50ina49dodge
2009-09-21 16:17:00

Yes, A CA judge found in favor of the burglar…judge bites homeowner… I’ll see if I can locate the story. ;-)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 10:57:59

Prison sentence for woman who kept mom’s body.

MIAMI (Reuters) – A Florida woman was sentenced on Monday to a year and a day in prison for keeping her dead mother’s body in a bedroom for years while collecting more than $230,000 in pension benefits, prosecutors said.

Penelope Sharon Jordan, 61, of Sebastian, Florida, pleaded guilty to theft of government funds in June, the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Miami said.

Police said when they found the body in a spare bedroom in March, Jordan told them her mother had been dead for at least six years. During the sentencing hearing, evidence indicated that Jordan told her sister their mother had died before December, 2001.

An autopsy on the body found no signs of foul play.

Jordan told the court she concealed her mother’s death in order to continue collecting her Social Security and military pension benefits. Over a six-year period she received $61,415 in Social Security payments and $176,461 from the military pension.

She was ordered to repay $237,876 to the government.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-09-21 11:19:01

I guess there goes the house….

——————————————-
She was ordered to repay $237,876 to the government.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 11:56:21

Ah yes - the efficiencies of government charity (we were discussing above).

At least they found out after six years, though only when police were called there to investigate a report of nuisance cats.

Comment by Jon
2009-09-21 14:57:11

Yes, but where were the nice Christian folks all this time?

Comment by packman
2009-09-22 04:12:49

Um… the Christians weren’t the ones giving the charity, and thus weren’t the ones tasked with ensuring it was being used properly.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 11:17:01

Sept. 21, 2009
AIG gains on hope government may ease bailout again
Congress may review proposal to restructure rescue package, Bloomberg says

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — American International Group shares jumped 10% Monday amid hope the government may ease the terms of its bailout of the giant insurer again.

Rep. Edolphus Towns, D-N.Y., chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, has told the panel’s staff to review a proposal put forward by former AIG Chief Executive Maurice “Hank” Greenberg to restructure the insurer’s government rescue package, Bloomberg News reported Monday on its Web site.

Greenberg is proposing a lower interest rate on government loans, more time to repay the debt, and a reduction of the government’s stake in AIG, Bloomberg reported.

Greenberg met with Towns last week, and Towns may start talks with the Treasury Department and Federal Reserve on the Greenberg proposal, Bloomberg said.

Catherine Seifert, an insurance analyst at Standard & Poor’s Equity Research, upgraded AIG shares(AIG 45.63, +5.72, +14.33%) to hold from sell after the report.

“We see this news buoying the shares near term,” she wrote in a note to investors.

AIG shares were up 10% at $45.93 during midday action on Monday.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 16:27:55

Insanity.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 12:01:09

Here’s your ‘demonstration project,’ Mr. President — it’s called Mississippi
The Examiner- 09/21/09

Since passing tort reform in 2004, Mississippi has seen the number of medical malpractice claims plummet by 91 percent from its peak. The state’s largest medical liability insurer dropped its premiums by 42 percent, and has offered an additional 20 percent rebate each year since tort reform went into effect.

That is the story that Mississippi’s governor, Haley Barbour, offered on Friday, speaking at the Heritage Foundation. He also made an observation about President Obama’s decision to offer only token “demonstration projects” on lawsuit abuse rather than address it meaningfully in his health care reform proposal.

“It’s mysterious to me that the administration and the leadership of Congress talk about health care reform and the goal of reducing costs, and yet refuse to put tort reform into the legislation,” he said. “I believe $200, $250 billion a year in health care costs is caused by litigation. It may be more than that. But this is the lowest hanging fruit, this ain’t rocket science. If they want a demonstration project, come down to Mississippi, and I’ll show you a demonstration project.”

Mississippi’s legal situation was particularly bad when he came into office, Barbour said. “When I ran for governor in 2003, for the third consecutive year the U.S. Chamber rated Mississippi the worst state in the country for lawsuit abuse — a judicial hell-hole,” he said. “And the reason they rated us that way is because we were. The state was overrun by out-of-state plaintiffs shopping for generous venues, some of which rarely if ever ruled for defendants.

Comment by In Colorado
2009-09-21 14:15:17

So claims dropped 91% while premiums only dropped 42%?

Comment by Skip
2009-09-21 15:25:54

Opps!

Where is the follow on story about record bonuses for Mississippi insurance company execs?

 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-09-21 15:03:36

Mississippi started the whole suing of the tobacco companies too.

Their AG wanted to take the state cigarette tax and dedicate it to medicaid and for non insured people with cancer instead of being put in the general funds of the state.

But that meant the state had to officially declare cigarettes caused cancer…..a radical idea at the time.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 16:35:54

Over 100,000 people are killed each year by medical mistakes, let alone the number permanently harmed or crippled.

For those of you who think medical tort reform is the answer, you better pray it never happens to you. There ARE fates worse than death.

Here’s a thought: maybe the AMA and state medical boards should enforce the rules, regulations, standards and practices better. You know, “ounce of prevention, pound of cure” and all that.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-09-21 21:49:48

The San Francisco Chronicle (sfgate dot com) did an investigative piece about medical mistakes. Did you know hospitals are not required to report any of those medical mistakes in California. Don’t know about the rest of the country.

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-09-22 02:33:40

Amen, eco!

 
 
 
Comment by ATE-UP
2009-09-21 12:15:55

Where’s Oly Gal?

I wanted to tell her me an’ Shorty made Cupcakes out of Drano and battery acid last night. I washed dishes.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-09-21 12:20:09

The Liars Club(nar) will be propagating their distortions this Thursday. The Glorified WoodButchers(NAHB) will post their lies on Friday.

Of course FHFA will publish their garbage(Housing Price Index) tomorrow to lay the ground work for the previously mentioned lowlifes to spin their BS.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 12:25:17

Silicon Valley reinvents the lowly brick.
NEWARK, California (Reuters) - Forget microchips.

Silicon Valley sees a profitable future in the humble brick thanks to a low-energy production process that illustrates the greening of the U.S. technology capital.

Brick maker Calstar Products is heavy on PhDs and backed by venture capitalists whose vision is to create buildings less expensively and in a way that saves energy.

“We think it is time for a second industrial revolution,” said Paul Holland, a partner at Foundation Capital, which invested $7 million in Calstar. EnerTech Capital led another round that raised $8 million for the business.

“We and dozens of others are trying to create green alternatives for all the things that happen in the building industry,” Holland said.

Currently about 40 percent of U.S. energy use goes toward the heating, cooling and general operation of buildings.

Silicon Valley is finding high-tech ways to make age-old materials, pursuing carbon dioxide-eating concrete, windows that insulate better than walls, and wood substitutes.

The field is still new. Venture investments in green buildings have waxed and waned with the recession, but involved 45 deals worth about $350 million the past year, according to Cleantech Group LLC.

3,000-YEAR WAIT

Bricks have been made pretty much the same way for 3,000 years, until Calstar’s scientists came up with their new technique, said Chief Executive Michael Kane.

Ordinary bricks are fired for 24 hours at 2,000 degrees F (1,093 C) as part of a process that can last a week, while Calstar bricks are baked at temperatures below 212 F (100 C) and take only 10 hours from start to finish, Kane said.

The recipe incorporates large amounts of fly ash — a fluffy, powdery residue of burned coal at electric plants, that can otherwise wind up as a troublesome pollutant.

“Ours is a precise product” that relies on getting the chemistry right, said Amitabha Kumar, Calstar’s director of research and development.

The process of making the bricks, which look and feel like any other brick, requires 80 to 90 percent less energy and emits 85 percent less greenhouse gas than ordinary bricks, according to Calstar.

Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-09-21 12:32:22

“a fluffy, powdery residue of burned coal at electric plants, that can otherwise wind up as a troublesome pollutant.”

And now you want to make bricks out of that? I sure hope somebody does some cancer testing on rats or investment bankers.

Comment by milkcrate
2009-09-21 13:00:03

Florida’s version of fly ash: mountains of phosphogypsum stacks in the middle of the state, leftovers from fertilizer manufacturing. Researchers had been trying to get approvals to blend the stuff in building materials. Concern over radioactivity levels had damped the efforts, the last I knew. Believe the stacks are still there around Bartow.

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-09-21 13:48:30

Why not? The Chinese already made lots of sheetrock out of that stuff. Hasn’t caused any problems that I’ve heard about.

 
 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 13:29:27

Sounds awesome.

Expect it to die an ignominious death though when some guy drives his car into a house made of this stuff, then sues the owner when he gets cancer 5 years later (despite whatever testing may be done showing that the substance doesn’t cause cancer).

 
Comment by Skip
2009-09-21 15:29:55

I’m pretty sure that its illegal to build with bricks in California.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 16:38:46

I’ve noticed that… :lol:

 
 
Comment by Watching the Carnage
2009-09-21 21:26:30

Yes,

And in ten years we’ll see these same bricks failing. I’ll stick with my old bricks. These new high-tech building materials are continuing to not test the stand of time.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 12:52:07

New poll: Majority believe government is doing too much.
The Beltway 09/21/09

A new Gallup poll shows that the number of people who believe government has its hand in too many areas of American life has reached its highest point in more than a decade.

The question asked by Gallup was, “Some people think the government is trying to do too many things that should be left to individuals and businesses. Others think that government should do more to solve our country’s problems. Which comes closer to your own view?” Fifty-seven percent of those surveyed say government is doing too much, while 38 percent say it should do more. Five percent are undecided.

The number of people who believe government is doing too much is up sharply from early March, when 47 percent said government was doing too much and 42 percent said it should do more.

The last time the number of people who believe government is doing too much hit 57 percent was in October 1994, shortly before voters threw Democrats out of power in both the House and Senate. It continued to rise after that, hitting 60 percent in December 1995, before settling down in the later Clinton and Bush years.

Also, the number of people who say there is too much government regulation of business and industry has reached its highest point since Gallup began asking the question in 1993. In the new survey 45 percent say there’s too much regulation, versus 24 percent who say there’s too little and 27 percent who say there’s the right amount. In a September 2008 Gallup survey, 38 percent said there was too much regulation, versus 27 percent who said there was too little and 31 percent who said there was the right amount.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-09-21 13:00:57

From the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis: (They used a lot of big words with charts and stuff and talked about numbers)

The small share of subprime lending in 2005 and 2006 that can be linked to the CRA suggests it is very unlikely the CRA could have played a substantial role in the subprime crisis.”

“Two basic points emerge from our analysis of the available data. First, only a small portion of subprime mortgage originations is related to the CRA. Second, CRA-related loans appear to perform comparably to other types of subprime loans. Taken together, the available evidence seems to run counter to the contention that the CRA contributed in any substantive way to the current mortgage crisis.

http://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications_papers/pub_display.cfm?id=4136

Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 13:17:14

Too late! The rumor du jour is the gov’s going to fund all the newspapers, and turn them into propaganda machines. Oh, and now they’re coming for the little kids, to brainwash them in daycare. (You gotta move fast to keep up with the drudge regurgitators. They know if they slow down, the facts will catch up with them.)

Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-09-21 13:46:37

Too late!

Dang…

Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-09-21 17:07:28

Too late! and On to the next one!

Alpha, Those posts were hilarious.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 17:45:35

I like your posts too, Rio. Keep ‘em coming.

 
 
 
 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-09-21 13:19:33

The first time I can remember hearing the word “subprime” was in a bowling alley in a suburb of St. Paul, MN. The guy tossing the word around, and bragging about how they were sticking it to people, had no affiliation with any bank or any CRA program. He was just an independent scumbag mortgage broker. He probably didn’t even know what the CRA was.

 
Comment by packman
2009-09-21 13:33:40

This is a really tired argument.

The CRA was just the fuse. Greenie’s low interest rates, the regulatory changes, and Fannie and Freddies’ play in the early 2000’s were the TNT.

You’re not going to find much fuse residue in the resulting wreckage after an explosion, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t play a key role.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 13:43:01

See? When the facts arrive, the rumor’s over. On to the next one!

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-09-21 13:52:59

This is a really tired argument.

But I got facts and numbers and stuff… and I got a lot of charts and even tables, big tables. Did you see the tables?

(I wonder if he saw the tables?)

http://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications_papers/pub_display.cfm?id=4136

Comment by packman
2009-09-21 14:25:54

I’ve seen those tables many times before. It’s all recent data, which is meaningless. That data is from 2006-2008, but the bubble started in 1997.

I got your chart right here.

- Long before the low interest rates of 2001-2004
- Long before the deregulation of 2000-2004
- Long before the ownership society initiatives started in 2002

What two key things happened before 1997, that might have caused the housing bubble to start? The two main things I know of are:

A. Clinton’s push/expansion of CRA in the early and mid 90’s
B. Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997, creating the 250k/500k capital gains exemption.

Perhaps B was the main trigger - I can’t say for sure. But there’s a lot of weight behind A.

While I certainly would agree with the title of the article, in that CRA didn’t “cause” the mortgage market meltdown; by itself - in reality there were many, many causes, and CRA was most definitely one of them.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-09-21 15:31:41

Yes, Clinton has his fingerprints on the crisis. But I think his pushing CRA is a minor factor in his culpability.

As I pointed out yesterday the facts lead me to believe that the CRA might be responsible for about 1-2% of the bubble. To me that’s not that big of a deal.

Even if the bubble did start in 1997, (which I know it did in N. Cal) the study shows that the loans that are causing the problems were more recent.

“The first point is a matter of timing. The current crisis is rooted in the poor performance of mortgage loans made between 2005 and 2007.”

“However, the CRA rules and enforcement process have not changed substantively since 1995. This fact weakens the potential link between the CRA and the current mortgage crisis.”

And no changes were made that encouraged lenders to relax their underwriting standards in the 1995 rules change.

From the Fed’s article: Did the CRA cause the mortgage market meltdown? (linked in the above posts)

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 15:48:20

“Did the CRA cause the mortgage market meltdown?”

Doesn’t the Fed administer CRA? Without looking at the article, I have to question the objectivity of the source.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-09-21 17:23:05

You’d have to read it. I don’t think even many academics would be able to fault most of it’s math and proofs.

Some maybe, most probably not.

 
 
 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-09-21 14:24:04

The CRA was just the fuse.

Ah yes, the ol’ “Fuse That Smolders For 30 years Through Various Financial Ups-And-Downs, Including At Least One Other Housing Bubble, Then Destroys The Evidence” trick. Magical!

It really is a tired argument, isn’t it?

Comment by packman
2009-09-21 14:28:49

You don’t know your CRA history. While the law existed for 20 (not 30) years before the bubble started, it wasn’t really pushed heavily until Clinton did in the 1990’s, when the housing bubble started.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-09-21 14:53:07

CRA was enacted in 1977. 20+ year fuse? Does that seem fair?

Perhaps you should read through CRA’s history sometime — while the law has been modified many times, and the program did ramp up in the ’90s, I challenge you to find data to support your theory. The Professor struck out when it came to evidence …

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 15:01:42

“The Professor struck out when it came to evidence …”

No amount of evidence would ever convince a true believer in his personal religion.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-09-21 15:10:25

No amount of evidence would ever convince a true believer in his personal religion.

I got no religion, man.

And it’s been quite some time since I did.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 15:46:45

Perhaps I am the one who is being a tiny bit religious here? For instance, when an unfunded government mandate requires private firms to change their behavior, I naturally expect market distortions to result.

 
 
 
Comment by measton
2009-09-21 14:46:19

Please securitization of all types along with criminal rating agencies was the problem combined with massive leverage. CRA did not force non CRA banks to make no doc loans, or ARM’s, or 0% down.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 15:03:18

But it’s so perfect an explanation. It was all the fault of community activists and their overseers. Those billions made by big financial firms were secondary, hardly important at all, factors.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 15:45:00

You guys like to dwell on this false dichotomy: “It was either CRA or the big financial firms that caused the bubble.” A better explanation, IMHO, is that the community activists convinced the PTB of the need for more loans to low-income communities, and relaxed underwriting standards coupled with triple-A rated subprime securitization delivered an unimaginable flood of more loans to low-income communities. Pretty soon, housing in low-income communities was pretty unaffordable without crazy loans.

I just don’t buy into this whole blame-oriented approach to analyzing what blew up the bubble — the accomplishment required many parties acting in cooperation. I am also not sure whether the cooperation was coordinated in any fashion, or if Dawkin’s Blind Watchmaker undermined the role Adam Smith’s invisible hand was supposed to play in making sure the markets favorably served all parties to loan transactions.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-09-21 16:56:27

You guys like to dwell on this false dichotomy: “It was either CRA or the big financial firms that caused the bubble.

I’m not dwelling on a false dichotomy. I posted facts and articles yesterday and today that lead me to put the blame on CRA at 1-2%. My guess is big financial firms are responsible for about the same amount of damage as the government and a little less than the Fed, all clocking in at around 20-25% of the blame each.

I have no problem with guilty parties being blamed in this disaster.

I don’t recall anyone saying it was either/or either.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 17:08:05

“I don’t recall anyone saying it was either/or either.”

I don’t think you did. But many posters’ responses yesterday were of the nature, “Why are you unfairly blaming CRA, when the private banks were the real culprits?”

I personally like the ‘CRA fuse’ metaphor…the subprime lending kingpins of Wall Street provided the dynamite.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-09-21 17:32:42

Thank you.

And I understand the potential beauty of the fuse metaphor but ya gotta admit this was really funny…

Ah yes, the ol’ “Fuse That Smolders For 30 years Through Various Financial Ups-And-Downs, Including At Least One Other Housing Bubble, Then Destroys The Evidence” trick.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 17:41:42

Let’s turn it around, PB. If there were no CRA’s, do you think we would have had a housing bubble?

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-09-21 18:05:11

But many posters’ responses yesterday were of the nature, “Why are you unfairly blaming CRA, when the private banks were the real culprits?”

I believe the responses were more along the lines of “You claim CRA was a significant factor in the housing bubble. Show us the data that supports that claim.” (And not CRA equals federal housing policy in general or the Fed-by-proxy.)

I don’t recall anyone claiming CRA played no role whatsoever, though many of us wondered and continue to wonder why so much attention has been paid to CRA in lieu of, say, the private sector.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 18:38:26

“…why so much attention has been paid to CRA in lieu of, say, the private sector.”

On your encouragement, I cast around the web for articles on CRA. Sorry if they were not the ones you would have preferred me to post.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 19:11:32

What about my question? It seems of upmost importance (to me at least). If the housing bubble would have occurred without CRA’s, then CRA’s are mostly beside the point. If the bubble would not have occurred without them, then would the dotcom bubble have occurred? Were we in a period of continuing bubbles caused by too easy money, as I think almost everyone here agrees ? Or was the housing bubble a stand-alone phenomenon, caused, at root, by CRA’s?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 20:51:25

“If the housing bubble would have occurred without CRA’s, then CRA’s are mostly beside the point.”

The answer to your question of whether there could have been a bubble without the CRA is obviously yes. Just check how many bubbles over the history of modern Western economies occurred before 1977 if you are skeptical.

This does not necessarily mean the CRA is beside the point, though, especially if it greased the skids for the pernicious effect of subprime lending on low-income communities.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 21:00:08

“Fuse That Smolders For 30 years Through Various Financial Ups-And-Downs, Including At Least One Other Housing Bubble, Then Destroys The Evidence”

That ‘one other housing bubble’ was a gentle wave lapping at the sand on the beach compared to the ginormous tsunami wave of a bubble we are riding down at the moment. For instance, California home prices barely dipped in the early 1990s before they were off to the races again.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 21:20:08

But the *prime* cause? (Sorry, I’m a little dense. Or perhaps you’re a good circumlocutor.) CRA’s or easy money?

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-09-22 02:57:10

For instance, California home prices barely dipped in the early 1990s before they were off to the races again.
———————

Just to add my perspective to this…my parents owned a nice house in a desirable neighborhood in L.A. (SFV). It’s valued dropped about 40% during the last downturn. I think some of the statistics do not bear out what really happened in the ~1989-1996 downturn.

 
 
 
 
Comment by ecofeco
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 18:36:30

Ahem…

“During one of the Congressional hearings addressing the proposed changes in 1995, William A. Niskanen, chair of the Cato Institute, criticized both the 1993 and 1994 sets of proposals for political favoritism in allocating credit, for micromanagement by regulators and for the lack of assurances that banks would not be expected to operate at a loss to achieve CRA compliance. He predicted the proposed changes would be very costly to the economy and the banking system in general. Niskanen believed that the primary long term effect would be an artificial contraction of the banking system. Niskanen recommended Congress repeal the Act.”

We now are in the long term. But perhaps the Fed will still figure out a way to print its way out of trouble.

Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-09-21 19:07:22

I’m sure he had some valid points.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-09-21 16:50:17

Typical misdirection. Blame the victim.

The banks created huge international demand for the CDOs. Without subprime, they couldn’t keep up with the demand. And without false credit rating, they would not have been able to hide the subprime in the packages.

The mortgages companies were making a killing with fees and sell off to the banks who were packaging the CDOs, but could not sustain the growth, so they resorted to liars loans when the subprime market started drying up.

The RE agents drank their own kool aid and were heavily invested in flipping as well.

But it was the poor FB wasn’t? It has to be… because Susan researched it!

Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 17:49:32

Well, it couldn’t be the fault of the fantastically well-connected Wall Street titans who made billions off of it. That just wouldn’t make sense. Poor people gaming the system- that makes sense!

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 13:12:29

Fed’s Daily Securities Lending

Mon 09/21/09 $12.703 billion

National Debt $11,807,667,118,297.67

You go BB!

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 13:24:00

Lordy, a gathering of leaches…

The United Nations is planning a form of diplomatic shock therapy for world leaders this week in the hope of injecting badly needed urgency into negotiations for a climate change treaty that, it is now widely acknowledged, are dangerously adrift.

UN chief Ban Ki-Moonbat and negotiators say that unless they can convert world leaders into committed advocates of radical action, it will be very hard to reach a credible and enforceable agreement to avoid the most devastating consequences of climate change.

As the digital counter ticking off the hours to the Copenhagen summit – which had been supposed to seal the deal on climate change – hit 77 days today, progress at the UN summit in New York is seen as vital. Nearly 100 heads of state and government are to attend the summit, for which a pared-down format has been devised.

“We need these leaders to go outside their usual comfort zones,” said one diplomat. “Our sense is that leaders have got a little too cosy and comfortable. They really have to hear from countries that are vulnerable and suffering.”

Rajendra Pachauri, head of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which won the Nobel peace prize with Al Gore, agreed. Commenting on the leaders attending the G20 summit in Pittsburgh next week, he said: “We need to remind these people about impacts of climate change – the fact that they are inequitable and fall very heavily on some of the poorest people in the world. We are likely to see a large number of failed states if we don’t act in time.”

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 13:32:55

Jack Daniel’s to end NASCAR ties
Business First of Louisville

Brown-Forman Corp. will conclude its Jack Daniel’s NASCAR program and end its sponsorship of the Richard Childress Racing’s No. 07 team after the 2009 season.

The Louisville-based beverage company said in a news release that a change in Brown-Forman’s spending priorities led to the decision to conclude the five-year sponsorship.

“Jack Daniel’s has enjoyed a good five-year run with Richard Childress Racing and NASCAR, and we are pleased with the overall performance of our sponsorship program,” Tim Rutledge, vice president and brand director for Jack Daniel’s, said in the release. “While it is difficult for us to end our formal relationship with RCR, the current economic environment has compelled us to reevaluate our spending, and we’ve concluded that other areas in the marketing mix require additional investment.”

The cost of the sponsorship was not disclosed.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-09-21 17:52:15

farewell to thee, o sour mash…don’t let the doorknob hit ya!
(I can’t resist continuing my KY bourbon jihad)

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 13:40:47

So this POS is going to butt heads with team Barry. Better watch out Chrisy.

US senator plans radical regulation rethink.
September 20 2009

Christopher Dodd, chairman of the Senate banking committee, on Sunday revealed plans that would put him strikingly at odds with the Obama administration’s proposals to reform Wall Street and would almost certainly provoke a war with the financial industry.

Mr Dodd, a former presidential candidate who is facing a tough re-election battle in his home state of Connecticut next year, told the New York Times that he was drawing up plans to merge the four Washington bank regulators into one banking “super-regulator”.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 14:59:31

Both plans create one banking “super-regulator,” which should make it easy for Megabank, Inc to capture them. The difference appears to be with respect to whether that super-regulator is the Fed.

Comment by joeyinCalif
2009-09-21 20:38:44

jeeze.. take the blinders off… or cut eye holes in that tin oil cap.

If there is more than one regulatory agency, they are in competition.

Lets say one’s regulations are slightly more lenient than the other’s.

Financial institutions will do their best to put themselves under the control of the less demanding, less regulatory one.

Once a member, those institutions will also use whatever political power they have to reinforce and strengthen that agency, to the detriment of the other. And, agencies themselves want to be powerful and to grow.

Now.. Do you want regulatory competition or not?
If you’re a bank, you do. If you’re protected by regulations, you don’t.. or shouldn’t.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 20:55:58

“If there is more than one regulatory agency, they are in competition.”

Did you go to the dumb@ss school of economics? Last I checked, competition had a beneficial effect on performance. Do you disagree? Perhaps you would prefer to go to a Communist country where a dictator handles everything?

“If you’re protected by regulations, you don’t.. or shouldn’t.”

It would be quite a privilege to be watched over by Big Brother Fed. They did such a grand job of foreseeing the financial crisis we are in, that they would be sure to spot the regulatory irregularities in the banks they are in bed with regulate.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by joeyinCalif
2009-09-21 21:47:30

Last I checked, competition had a beneficial effect on performance. Do you disagree?

When it comes to regulating banks? Certainly.

Regulation inhibits a bank’s “performance”. Regulation makes it tougher for a bank to make money.

Banks would naturally strive to be subject to LESS regulation. Having several regulatory agencies to choose from makes it possible.
Banks are capable of splitting themselves up or transforming their structures so they can be under the control of and take advantage of a more favorable regulatory environment.

Think of it this way: If laws are more lenient in one place than in another, where will criminals likely go?

it aint rocket science.. Just remember banks gravitate to money. I’m surprised that you of all people would forget it.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by jane
2009-09-21 15:37:17

Follow up: from the September 19th Flying Miser column, Go East said: “Nothing even to buy in Orlando or on the West coast, Ft. Myers or Lehigh? RE my finances: I have to live somewhere after I graduate, and it won’t be in L.A. If I have to rent, so be it, but not in CA. I just don’t think I can rent anything with my credit.”

I noted that I would “spend some time looking through my archives, can’t find the folder, but there is one non profit in TX who patented a concrete-like shell hardened over a inflatable air frame.” I found the folder. The web site is monolithic dot com, and the organization branched into doing this domestically from doing it in natural disaster areas overseas. A lot about this building style tickles my fancy, not the least of which is its relative affordability.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-09-21 17:11:42

Pratt to Close Cheshire Plant, East Hartford Department

Matt Dwyer Reporting
About 1,000 jobs will be lost, as Pratt & Whitney today announced it will close a facility in Cheshire, and a department in East Hartford.

Layoffs will be phased in in early 2010 as a result of the decision, according, according to company officlias at a press conference.

The comapy said it needed almost $54-million in annual savings.

Pratt said the union and state offers fell short of that amount.

The company is expected to move the work out of state, or overseas.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-09-21 20:07:03

Wbmz:

They could all get jobs the Foxwoods casino….like the 6,000 or so did when the Groton sub base was closed

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSS:

Foxwoods Owner Seeks to Restructure Debt
August 26, 2009, 6:00 pm

The Mashantucket Pequot Tribal Nation, the owner of the Foxwoods Resort Casino in Ledyard, Conn., said on Wednesday that it was seeking to restructure its debt, as casinos worldwide grapple with slumping business.

For years, Foxwoods was one of the biggest casino resorts in the Northeast. But growing competition from the likes of Mohegan Sun in nearby Uncasville and slots throughout the Northeast has sapped it of gaming revenue.

News of the tribe’s efforts to restructure the casino’s debt, first reported by The Day newspaper, sent shudders through Connecticut on Wednesday. Gov. M. Jodi Rell held a news conference to address concerns that a default by the casino would have on the state’s revenues. Last fall, Foxwoods announced 700 layoffs.

“They’re working to try to address it with their lenders and hopefully they can, but obviously it’s a concern to us,” she said, according to The Day. “It’s revenue to the state.”

– Michael J. de la Merced
———————————————————————
How might the Mashantuckets’ restructuring play out?

Since the tribe is a sovereign nation - a “governmental unit” that likely would be unable to pursue bankruptcy protection - it must rely on the “forbearance” of creditors, analysts say. Essentially, that means the tribe will have to ask for more time to meet its obligations.

While the tribe has not responded to requests for comment, sources have told The Day that tribal officials and their advisers met last week with bondholders’ representatives and that the tribal council has begun to meet regularly with the tribal membership to provide “financial updates.”

But what lies ahead is uncharted territory.

”In a corporate setting, if there’s insolvency and you’re unable to pay your obligations, creditors can put you into involuntary bankruptcy and once in bankruptcy you can reorganize and the bankruptcy trustee can order changes in the debt,” Richey said. “But absent bankruptcy, nobody can tell you that you have to change your debt obligations - although you could be enticed to do so.

”If the debt’s out there long enough, more than likely some kind of consensual agreement is reached … where some folks are not going to get everything their contract provides.”

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-09-21 20:49:50

before Electric Boat’s announcement of as many as 4,000 layoffs and before United Technologies’ decision to lay off 6,400 in the next four years.

This was in 1992 cold war wind down…and Foxwoods was in a major expansion mode and was begging for thousands of qualified employees just a few months before. From shipbuilders to casino workers

 
 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2009-09-21 20:20:30

38,577 employees.. was, anyway.

What’s up with both a union and a state government allowing something like this to happen, especially in hard times. Do they hate people having good jobs?

Unions i can see.. It’s their First Commandment: Thou shalt not give an inch.

But the state? What’s Connecticut’s excuse?

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-09-21 20:41:41

Whadd’ya know — maybe they will give it away after all!

* The Wall Street Journal
* HEARD ON THE STREET
* SEPTEMBER 22, 2009

Lennar in No-Man’s Land

By JOHN JANNARONE

Home builders are beginning to patch up their businesses by getting rid of excess inventory. But what happens when they actually start building again on their own land?

Companies such as Lennar are sitting on undeveloped land purchased during the boom, waiting for the right time to parcel it into lots and build houses. Yet as signs of stability emerge and companies try to expand, Lennar has discovered it is cheaper to buy distressed lots already developed by rivals rather than build on its own land.

That means land prices in some places have become so depressed that sellers are practically throwing it in for free. While that helps Lennar, it may eventually become a burden. Lennar’s $2 billion in “land under development,” including raw land, accounts for 27% of total assets.

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-09-21 20:47:10

COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE
Chinese real estate investors scout Austin for possibilities
[AUSTIN] AMERICAN-STATESMAN Friday, September 18, 2009

Business and city leaders on Thursday hosted a delegation of two dozen Chinese developers and investors who are touring several U.S. cities to learn about investing in U.S. commercial real estate.
The group, which is looking at industrial, office and retail properties, was welcomed Thursday morning by Austin Mayor Lee Leffingwell, and later met with real estate consultant Charles Heimsath and officials of the Greater Austin Chamber of Commerce to learn more about the region.
….
The group arrived in California on Sept. 10 and has visited San Francisco, Los Angeles and Dallas, and is headed to Houston and New York after Austin.
….
Last week, the English-language China Daily newspaper reported that Nie was leading a delegation of major Chinese developers “on a fact-finding trip (of the U.S.) to assess multibillion-dollar investment opportunities in real estate.”
A plunge in property markets worldwide following the credit market crisis has created opportunities for cash-rich buyers. Commercial property values in the U.S. have fallen 35 percent since October 2007.
“China is a country of saving, and that makes this a good time to be looking at real estate,” Nie said Thursday.

Comment by joeyinCalif
2009-09-21 22:16:08

wow.. those Chinese investors sure are clever… certainly on par with the Japanese.

 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-09-21 21:11:45

Census: Recession had sweeping effect on US life

Sep 21st, 2009 | WASHINGTON — The recession is profoundly disrupting American life: More people are delaying marriage and home-buying, turning to carpools yet getting stuck in ever-worse traffic, staying put rather than moving to new cities.

A broad array of U.S. census data, released Monday, also shows a dip in the foreign-born population last year, to under 38 million after it reached an all-time high in 2007. This was due to declines in low-skilled workers from Mexico searching for jobs in Arizona, Florida and California.

Health coverage swung widely by region, based partly on levels of unemployment. Massachusetts, with its universal coverage law, had fewer than 1 in 20 uninsured residents — the lowest in the nation. Texas had the highest share, at 1 in four, largely because of illegal immigrants excluded from government-sponsored and employer-provided plans.

Demographers said the latest figures were striking confirmation of the social impact of the economic decline as it hit home in 2008. Findings come from the annual American Community Survey, a sweeping look at life built on information from 3 million households.

Preliminary data earlier this year found that many Americans were not moving, staying put in big cities rather than migrating to the Sunbelt because of frozen lines of credit. Mobility is at a 60-year low, upending population trends ahead of the 2010 census that will be used to apportion House seats.

The rest of story at the link: http://tinyurl.com/n9ru33

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-09-21 23:27:46

Well, around here the delusion is still lingering:

“Full house of buyers snaps up discounted condos”

Yes, it’s 40% off but it’s still $250K for a one-bedroom condo.

http COLON //www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/09/full_house_of_buyers_snaps_up.html

Comment by hip in zilker
2009-09-22 09:08:00

Their hustle appeared to pay off

Interesting choice of terms to describe the auction.

 
 
 
Comment by drumminj
2009-09-21 22:05:28

Haven’t been around to post much, but had some time tonight to upload the latest version of the JT Extension, which had been sitting on my hard drive for a while.

Those of you who aren’t using it should give it a shot. Those of you who are should upgrade to the latest version, though honestly it doesn’t add any features - just a bugfix and a new popup item.

Anyway, I’ll post a proper link, but one that will get past the filter here:

http colon // home.avvanta.com/~drumminj/joshuatree.html

I’ve still got to update the User Guide for version 1.4, and want to integrate Lavi’s search engine, but haven’t yet figured out how to do so.

 
Comment by drumminj
2009-09-21 22:08:35

And the proper link (sorry, it appears my “non-link” still got caught by the filter…):

Joshua Tree Extension for Firefox

Questions, comments, concerns always welcome.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-09-21 22:25:14

Hey everyone today is Herbert George Wells (aka H. G. Wells) birthday.

Author of:

The Time Machine
The First Men in the Moon
The War of the Worlds
The Invisible Man
The Island of Doctor Moreau
The Shape of Things to Come

Comment by joeyinCalif
2009-09-21 23:10:46

Wiki has an interesting biographical outline..

“In his preface to the 1941 edition of The War in the Air, Wells had stated that his epitaph should be: “I told you so. You damned fools.” but his wish was not granted as he was cremated at Golders Green Crematorium on 16 August, 1946 and his ashes were later scattered at sea..”

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-09-21 23:50:55

Yup read wiki about him. I found this part interesting:

“His most consistent political ideal was the World State. He stated in his autobiography that from 1900 onward he considered a World State inevitable. He envisioned the state to be a planned society that will advance science, end nationalism, and allow people to advance by merit rather than birth. During his work on the League of Nations charter, he opposed any mention of democracy. He feared the average citizen could never be educated or aware enough to decide major world issues. Therefore, he favoured suffrage to be limited to scientists, organisers, engineers, and others of merit, though he believed citizens should have as much freedom as possible without restricting the freedom of others.”

 
 
 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-09-28 18:11:04

Just in case anyone’s was wearing out, I found the perfect place to order my next tin foil hat. Not that I’m plugging the site. I was just enjoying the humor.

http://deviantwear.deviantart.com/art/Urban-Headgear-117791729

 
Comment by william
2014-02-22 10:16:18

Hi, the whole thing is going perfectly here and ofcourse
every one is sharing data, that’s really good, keep up writing.

 
Name (required)
E-mail (required - never shown publicly)
URI
Your Comment (smaller size | larger size)
You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

Trackback responses to this post

  • The Housing Bubble Blog
  • The Housing Bubble Blog
  • The Housing Bubble Blog
  • The Housing Bubble Blog