Bits Bucket For September 23, 2009
Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum.
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum.
First!
Sorry, that was a stupid and annoying thing to do. Please ignore me in future.
I won’t ignore you, Lion-O. I think you are a class act.
Second!
Stpn2me,
This is a response to your request for a link regarding the french freemasons and the statue of liberty. I’m sorry I don’t have one handy although a google search would probably find something. I am also a mason. I was told about the statues background during my early degree work. Your stories of being in international lodges where english is not spoken rings true with stories I’ve been told by other brothers. Our ceremonies are still very similar if not exactly the same.
Good luck my well traveled brother,
Mike
Too easy, Mike…
Matter of fact, the lodge here in Kandahar has a rasing friday and I think they are short PM’s..I guess I will go…
Most ceremonies are the same. I speak a little french so reading the ritual wasnt as bad. The military lodges are fun and we have a ball, especially the third degree….
Being a Prince Hall mason is interesting too. Prince Hall was a great man. Check out the back of the two dollar bill….
Behold how good and Pleasant it is…
Grow up.
Grow up
What? And become like you? No thanks, I stay a child…
Seems to me that you’re pretty grownup in many parts of your life. Yuo’ve earned the right to be a kid when your want to.
Well,
How nice wolfgirl!
Speaking of kids, after a huge mission, we had a big water fight with the Brits and french. This time, we SOAKED them! The french gave up (as usual)..just playing :)…fun was had by all…
“Speaking of kids, after a huge mission, we had a big water fight with the Brits and french. ”
Brings back memories of Viet-nam where we used to play baseball against the Aussies down the road. Started out Americans vs Aussies and with all the beer drinking ended up with mixed teams fielded with the last standing men.
Yeah… Grow up… And get a mortgage… An perhaps a HELOC.
But, I thought the big boys got Option Arms?
Yeah I was told to grow up by a colleague of mine this way: “A man in his 40s should have a house.” He said that at the peak of the Phoenix RE bubble in 2006. I only laughed at him.
Bill,
My “grow up” comment was directed solely at posters who feel a need to stake “First!” claims in the HBB each day. To me it seems silly - if you write an actual comment, then it’s self-evident that you’re first. If you don’t have a comment, all “First!” says is, that poster needs to think about getting a life.
Sammy, someday I hope you get a sense of humor.
I find it rather sad that you identify yourself as someone who takes delight in the misfortunes of others (schadenfreude).
Am I the first to tell you that? If so, then - First!
To me it seems silly
Frost!
Sammy I guess a lot of us were on the old F**ked company, where that was a Badge of honor……yes Kemosabe!
——————————
My “grow up” comment was directed solely at posters who feel a need to stake “First!” claims in the HBB each day.
This has been discussed many times before. I spoke with a lowly real-a-tor several weeks ago, and asked if they had any idea the number of homes in our area that were in some stage of foreclosure? His response was more than most can imagine, by his observations. So how long does the over inflated foreclosure market drag on, I wonder.
Delayed Foreclosures Stalk Market. WSJ 9-22-09
Debra and Arthur Scriven were served notice in June 2008 that their mortgage lender, a unit of Citigroup Inc., was preparing to foreclose on their home. Fifteen months later, the Scrivens are still in their home near Columbia, S.C., and battling to stay there, even though a dispute with the lender over how much they owe prompted them to stop making regular payments last year.
Legal snarls, bureaucracy and well-meaning efforts to keep families in their homes are slowing the flow of properties headed toward foreclosure sales, even when borrowers are in deep distress.
The MA 90 day foreclosure delay provisions expires soon. It will be interesting to see if there is a push to extend it or if they allow nature to takes its course, we should know soon.
“It will be interesting to see if there is a push to extend it or if they allow nature to takes its course, we should know soon”.
Since the PTB are resistant to allowing the natural course of events to take place, you’re right it may get interesting this go round. Especially with the next wave of mortgage re-sets coming down the pipe line.
All these efforts to “keep people in their homes” are doing nothing but giving free rent to FB’s. Meanwhile, we renters are served with court papers if we are so much as a day late past the grace period. Can’t they slap these FB’s with a 1099, or pass some law that makes the loan automatically recourse, or something? It’s not fair *stomps little foot.*
ummm their credit is shot and yours isn’t? I guess that’s the best our “leaders” are willing to do.
It does seem like something of a mixed blessing for the FBs. Free rent is great, but the uncertainty must wear on the nerves. I’d find it uncomfortable not knowing when I was going to get the boot. Not knowing if I should repair something or live with the problem. Not knowing if I should be half way packed ready to go, or just live on normally. I suppose the details would dictate if it’s worth it or not.
I was reading a study yesterday - I forget where but I’ll try to provide a link later - that indicates that of all the human fears, uncertainty places the greatest toll upon the mind.
Fear of the unknown is very powerful. Glad I’m not a FB waiting for the Sheriff to show up.
”Free rent is great, but the uncertainty must wear on the nerves. I’d find it uncomfortable not knowing when I was going to get the boot.”
Last year my Landlord was in foreclosure and I stopped paying rent until May of this year. I lived rent-free for almost a year. There was no stress at all associated with it. I knew in the end I would get a 60 day notice. By dumb luck I found a great rental at about day 45, otherwise I would have tested the limits of the 60 day notice and forced them to take me to court.
Fecaltime!
I can’t see most FBs being all that stressed about their situation. Most are resigned to the fact they’re going to lose the house, and will try to make the most of a bad situation. Keep in mind, a lot of these are the same people who knowingly signed liar loans for properties they couldn’t afford, so they’re unscrupulous to begin with. Freeloading or evading responsibility aren’t things they’d lose any sleep over. A lot of them probably get a twisted sense of satisfaction out of sticking it to lenders “who got me into a bad loan” - nothing is ever the FB’s fault, you know. They probably congratulate themselves on their ability to take advantage of the situation, rather than reflect how they got into that situation to begin with.
The place I am renting and have paid the rent on time for four years has had Lis pendens filed according to the bank appraiser that was here a couple of weeks ago, up for short sale at about half of what the LL owes, and still does not show up on any foreclosure site. But none of this has stops the LL from calling me and asking if I am going to have the rent in on time. ( like I have for four years) What a joke!
“”The place I am renting and have paid the rent on time for four years has had Lis pendens filed according to the bank appraiser that was here a couple of weeks ago, up for short sale at about half of what the LL owes, and still does not show up on any foreclosure site. But none of this has stops the LL from calling me and asking if I am going to have the rent in on time.”"
Stop paying!
Tell the LL that you are concerned that you won’t see your deposit again since he is being foreclosed.
Fecaltime!
And THAT’S the problem. Damage deposits really SHOULD be held in escrow.
They are supposed to be by law…but your landlord spent it already…
But here is the key…If you still have a signed valid lease you must still pay the rent or yes he can show the judge the lease
Now if you are month to month…then stop paying rent…do you think the LL has money to pay a lawyer to evict you? NAHHHHH!
He also cant cut off the utilities or lock you out…and YOU can take him to court even if you stopped paying rent…
Report it to the IRS
Jeff,
I would refuse to pay the LL another dime unless and until he produces a legally binding document that guarentees that your rent is going toward each month’s mortgage payment, and he has money set aside to cover your deposit.
Are you kidding? Always change the locks. Always. I mean ALWAYS! (Sorry for yelling) You never know what previous tenants have a key. And the LL will only protest if they have tried to get in! Always change the locks, rentors! (sic) It will give you peace of mind and good landlords never check.
The most irritating aspect of the housing bubble crash, to me personally, has been the way FBs are almost universally treated in the media as victims. If they are victims, it is of their own greed and stupidity. Rather than let them and their lenders, suffer the consequences, the gub’mint rewards gross irresponsibility by underwriting and encouraging more of the same, pushing off the inevitable day of reckoning and transferring the burden to future generations and those who refused to take part in the whole charade.
I know of at least 3 households that put no money down and have not made a payment for the last 18 months or so but are still living there. I dont know why, but it really bothers me. Feels like I got left out of something.
Would you really want to be in their position? Ask most people and they would say no.
Grizz,
It’s a conundrum. (Would you really want to be there?)
Sadly, many are -
Playing the game.
I dislike saying we have lost our “collective minds”
Yet this is what a mania IS.
Oy Vey,
Leigh
I have a client currently in foreclosure. The mortgage was taken out in 1999 and there have been many missed payments and late payments over the years since. In July we began foreclosure. The borrowers have gone to a credit counselor and have now applied to Pa Housing Finance Agency for assistance. Of course the foreclosure is on hold while all of this takes place and we are receiving no payments. The bright side is that the interest is still running and the debt is well secured.
wmbz - this is a big enough article it’s worth it’s own new post if you don’t mind - I’m posting it below… the stats from it blew me away.
Have at it, many times I have bad luck posting a link, or too much size.
The realtors I speak with are saying some of the bank owned properties and short sales are getting 10-20 offers.
When I hear that, I think back to Rosanna Rosanna Dana saying “you’re MAKING ME SICK.”
They mention the lack of good inventory here in San Diego because of that darned moratorium. I can’t wait till it’s lifted and TSHTF.
People buying now will feel like the people who bought stocks during that little mini bull run in 1930. Sort of a suckers rally to make the sheeple believe that happy days are here again. The 7 million people who lost their jobs sure aren’t the 10-20 bidding on each house.
I subscribe to an automated real estate listing in the area. Of the top ten listings, 6 of them went up in price. One went up over $150,000. Real-a-TORS are at it again.
Rarely will one believe me when I say “It’s different here”.
WI is different, but for how long?
Not much -
Yet the prices are going up - I kid you not!
We’re safe (Me thinks?)
Best,
Leigh
Where are you WMBZ?
I have pals here in NoVa that haven’t made a payment on their 2005 new build for over 2 years now….
but she is an old Morgage Broker, so I’m sure she knows all the “tricks” of staying in/delaying the foreclosure process…
There was a news piece on the Today show about how people are selling everything - including the kitchen sink! - from their soon-to-be-foreclosed houses. Selling appliances, central air units, kitchen cabinets, toilets, any and everything they can. One woman interviewed said that banks deserve it because they “put her in a bad loan to begin with”. What?! They put her in it? She had no say? These victims are getting old. No one spins a mortgage wheel and forces you to take whatever mortgage the wheel stops on. I was ticked that the interviewer didn’t call her out on that statement. I would have. Which is, perhaps, one of many reasons why I’m not in the media.
eastcoaster,
I got one for you. I know friends who moved from a local set of condo units. (Reston VA - near a popular shopping center South Lakes)
One of their neighbors there bought into her condo unit for $75k on a foreclosure. The going prices there are probably in the $220-$250K range for 2bdrm condos (plus fees of course)
This woman proceeded to withdraw everything she could on the house during the bubble up until she owed around $300K + and then was foreclosed on. (she walked)
This is where it gets good.
She moved out and down the block into another unit (rents) in the same complex and left all of her stuff in the old place. She has been going in and out of the house for almost a year because the bank has not actually taken possession of the property and she still has the keys! Just recently I am told she has been slowly removing all of the kitchen appliances, fridge, stove etc and moving it into her rental unit. Incredible.
I still cannot believe the bank hasn’t gotten around to at least changing the locks!
Oh. My. God.
Take some photos! Call the local Gazette reporter. This woman deserves her 15 minutes of fame.
And her share of sympathy for being a ‘victim’.
Wow. We have a lot of interesting anecdotes on the HBB - but that one has to be in the hall of fame!
What say Ben - should there be an HBB “Amazing anecdote hall of fame”?
That may be a dumb move on the FB’s part. Banks are giving cash for keys if you leave the place in decent condition. They’d likely get more from the bank than they would on craigslist or wherever they are hawking the stuff. I’m not sure what they are offering in other parts of the country, but here in So Cal, it’s often 3-5k on the first offer, and it’s negotiable. I knew of a guy who told the bank that he was sorry he could no longer make his house payment, but felt it was his duty to stay in the property until the bank took posession so that he could ensure that they rec’d it in good condition. He was doing his best to mitigate their loss. They gave him $6500!!!! Started out with an offer from the bank at just under 3 grand, and he got them to more than double it, since he was doing them such a big favor, and if he were to vacate the property, the potential damages would likely far exceed his negotiated “cash for keys”. Add that to the almost 2 yrs he lived in the place for free, and he did pretty well. Jacked up credit, but he’s got a decent stash of cash now. I’m seeing crazy stuff these days. It’s like the wild wild west.
“”I’m not sure what they are offering in other parts of the country, but here in So Cal, it’s often 3-5k on the first offer, and it’s negotiable”"
As a renter, when I was sent a letter the offer was a mere 1K and I tried to negoitate and they would not budge one cent. I stayed about 2-3 months after the offer came and I tried to stall them, but for some damn reason they seemed to really be on this case.
I vacated the house May 15 and I drive by frequently and it has been empty and for sale ever since with no accepted offers.
Fecaltime!
Here’s a link to that Today show piece:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/32981295#32981295
Apparantly the general rule is that if the only thing that you have to do is unplug it, it’s yours to take. eg refridgerators, washer/dryers, and that plasmascreen. But if it is bolted down, it’s part of the house.
The numbers of properties in which the “owners” are currently living in without paying the mortgage are astronomical. Factor in the vacant properties that are sitting idle, not listed on the mls, and there is a positively MASSIVE overhang of inventory in the pipeline. It’s nothing but a game the banks are playing to try and manipulate supply in order to keep prices up. It actually seems to be working since there is another mania taking place in the lower end, thanks to the $8k tax credit. All of this signals that this will drag on for years, and years, and years…
Yes, but they can kiss their credit scores good-bye. I personally hope that this will have an effect.
The Economy is a Lie, too
Paul Craig Roberts
Tuesday, Sept 22nd, 2009
Americans cannot get any truth out of their government about anything, the economy included. Americans are being driven into the ground economically, with one million school children now homeless, while Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke announces that the recession is over.
The spin that masquerades as news is becoming more delusional. Consumer spending is 70% of the US economy. It is the driving force, and it has been shut down. Except for the super rich, there has been no growth in consumer incomes in the 21st century. Statistician John Williams of shadowstats.com reports that real household income has never recovered its pre-2001 peak.
The US economy has been kept going by substituting growth in consumer debt for growth in consumer income. Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan encouraged consumer debt with low interest rates. The low interest rates pushed up home prices, enabling Americans to refinance their homes and spend the equity. Credit cards were maxed out in expectations of rising real estate and equity values to pay the accumulated debt. The binge was halted when the real estate and equity bubbles burst.
As consumers no longer can expand their indebtedness and their incomes are not rising, there is no basis for a growing consumer economy. Indeed, statistics indicate that consumers are paying down debt in their efforts to survive financially. In an economy in which the consumer is the driving force, that is bad news.
Agreed… and high housing prices (and corresponding mortgages) are hogging all the discretionary consumer dollars that could be put towards other purchases… I look forward to seeing the heads of non-real estate industries take a pop-shot at NAR and Congress for ignoring this fact… absent rising home values (that enables consumers to feel more wealthy) which leads to HELOCs, Detroit cannot survive with high / flat-lined housing prices… However, Detroit can survive if home prices are allowed to reset and if housing is put in it’s bottle once and for all with more tightly controlled price inflation using regional interest rates if necessary…
Detroit can survive if home prices are allowed to reset
If $9k isn’t a reset, what price are we talking about for Detriot?
In many areas of Detroit, homes are worth fairly large negative values. For example you’d have to put spend $50,000 on a home to even make it worth $25,000. Negative ROI, in other words.
http://cgi.ebay.com/House-At-14-of-Market-Value-5000-Or-Best-Offer_W0QQitemZ120440880627QQcmdZViewItemQQptZResidential?hash=item1c0ad5fdf3&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
I see what you mean.
LOL - love the photoshop-green lawn.
By the way, if you are a rehabber, the only way I can work with you is if you track down an investor. There are a lot more rehab guys out there than there are investors, but this is a great return on any investors money
Reference to the big iron and big prices Detroit pushed over the last decade… No disposable income and no cash-out refis means a big drop in SUV and luxury car sales.
WSJ had a good article recently about a 50% drop in demand for Cadillacs since GM stopped leasing. Not too many can afford those Cadys without low lease payments. Also talked about how BMW and Mercedes are heavily subsidizing leases right now in an attempt to gain market share. This will come back to bite them in a few years…
Leasing cars is like no money down/ ARM RE purchases. It puts the wrong buyers in the wrong products.
“Americans cannot get any truth out of their government about anything…”
Geez, I went the library yesterday, got free wifi, racks of free magazines, all sorts of free books about tools for finding the truth…just out of curiosity, I looked to see if they had a copy of Eric Hoffers “True Believers” yep,… x2 copies. (The Hoovers book on “private” American companies was interesting…)
“True Believers” (which came out in the 1950s) is one of those must-read books for anyone interested in politics. When you see those scooped-out-brain screamers at town hall meetings, you know the manipulators have been spooling up the cretins.
Hwy51 & Sammy-
Thanks for the introduction. After reading a quick synopsis, “True Believers” sounds like an analysis of the work of Edward Bernays, the father of Public Relations, and Sigmund Freud’s nephew. Evil Genius is what Bernays was.
oops “Hwy50″, sorry.
Awaiting wipeout,
I think you have Eric Hoffer’s “True Believer” mixed up with another book of the same name. Here is from the product description on Amazon:
A stevedore on the San Francisco docks in the 1940s, Eric Hoffer wrote philosophical treatises in his spare time while living in the railroad yards. The True Believer — the first and most famous of his books — was made into a bestseller when President Eisenhower cited it during one of the earliest television press conferences.Completely relevant and essential for understanding the world today, The True Believer is a visionary, highly provocative look into the mind of the fanatic and a penetrating study of how an individual becomes one.
An interesting fellow, Hoffer once hopped a train to get to a local library because he wanted to learn why a seed planted in the soil always finds its way to the sun…
“…Hoffer does not take an exclusively negative view of “true believers” and the mass movements they begin. Examples he gives of positive true believers are Abraham Lincoln and Gandhi.”
S/B: “why a seed planted UPSIDE-DOWN in the soil always finds its way to the sun…”
Sammy Schadenfreude
Bernays work was on group think and piercing the fraile insecurities to make people do what he wanted them too. He made bacon and eggs (both his accounts) the American Breakfast. He was instrumental in using a women’s right to vote as a launch for women smoking, etc…His tactics were used by the Third Reich. He was a master at getting people’s mindset to move in an orchestrated direction.
Don’t they relate, or I am missing the boat?
Sammy-
One more detail about Bernays. He would used counter arguments, and “Think Tank” type organizations (his creations to hide agendas) against something, to get people to come to the conclusion he wanted, brainwashing them to think it was rebellion. In the end, he would get the masses to move towards his desired result.
Read it, several times, have it in my library, and there are True Believers on both sides of the spectrum.
Don’t forget “The Ordeal of Change”, another
great one.
I went to the library yesterday. It was full of unsupervised running screaming 3 year olds. I’ll go back on a nonkiddie party day. I did feel very sorry for the dozen adults who were using the internet.
Somebody should’ve TASERed them, and given the absentee parents the same treatment when they showed up.
Somebody should’ve TASERed them,
Or hollered at them like the guy in WalMart.
The second dumbest thing the county library did here was to combine the children’s section with the adult section when all the branches were rebuilt starting about 15years ago. The dumbest thing was to threaten to close all the branches early everyday and all day on the weekend. The county council put a stop to that because of what it would do attempting to bring more business into the area.
wolfgirl-
Where do you live?
As much as I hate these burbs (Thousand Oaks, So Ca), we have a great main library. There is a huge fresh water fish tank (wall size) as you enter the children’s section. It’s really beautiful, and the children’s section is well situated away from the adults.
I agree about library noise. Our parents had a better handle on us, then most of today’s parents. We had no choice but to behave in public.
One million school children homeless? Ah yes, children of the 12 million illegal aliens in our country. Oh well.
There are no homeless schoolchildren. None. Get a grip on yourself.
The Recession is over.
Now, the jobless Unrecovery begins… until we get a double-dip recession… then a triple-dip… and so on until expectations reach the frightening lows of our new reality.
But will they even dare have a double-dip since that one will happen on Obama’s watch? Not that he’s alone to blame, of course, but if it starts under his reign, he’ll be blamed and since he is The One, that can’t happen. Maybe they’ll just flat out ignore the Recession and slowly ramp up the stock market as everything else goes to pieces.
A “jobless recovery” is not a recovery.
I cannot wait to see the egg on Bernanke’s face when a tidal wave of incontrovertible evidence arrives that the US economy never exited the current recession and, in fact, continued to disintegrate. On the other hand, of course, I fully expect to see them play out the scenario you described and attempt to ignore the recession altogether,
A jobless recovery means that we are all day traders now. OMFG!
My quoting Mahler was questioned yesterday, but I didn’t want to spoil Olygal’s BD with the lyrics of the Drinking Song of Earth’s Sorrow. So here it is today.
Schon winkt der Wein im goldnen Pokale,
Doch trinkt noch nicht, erst sing ich euch ein Lied!
Das Lied vom Kummer soll auflachend in die Seele euch klingen. Wenn der Kummer naht, liegen wüst die Gärten der Seele,
Welkt hin und stirbt die Freude, der Gesang.
Dunkel ist das Leben, ist der Tod.
Herr dieses Hauses!
Dein Keller birgt die Fülle des goldenen Weins!
Hier, diese Laute nenn’ ich mein!
Die Laute schlagen und die Gläser leeren,
Das sind die Dinge, die zusammen passen.
Ein voller Becher Weins zur rechten Zeit
Ist mehr wert, als alle Reiche dieser Erde!
Dunkel is das Leben, ist der Tod.
Das Firmament blaut ewig und die Erde
Wird lange fest stehen und aufblühn im Lenz.
Du aber, Mensch, wie lang lebst denn du?
Nicht hundert Jahre darfst du dich ergötzen
An all dem morschen Tande dieser Erde,
Dunkel ist das Leben, ist der Tod.
Seht dort hinab! Im Mondschein auf den Gräbern
hockt eine wildgespenstische Gestalt -
Ein Aff ist’s! Hört ihr, wie sein Heulen
hinausgellt in den süßen Duft des Lebens!
Jetzt nehm den Wein! Jetzt ist es Zeit, Genossen!
Leert eure goldnen Becher zu Grund!
Dunkel ist das Leben, ist der Tod!
Where do you go when you are in the mood to hear the live version?
Sometimes I sing it in the shower when I’m depressed.
For some reason I think that Das Trinklied vom Jammer der Erde should be the theme song for this blog. The refrain even translates loosely into “Life sucks!”.
But Germans are always depressed, according to what I’ve learned.
I didn’t really like any of the English translations, so I took one of them and marked it up somewhat. I prefer a more literal translation when translating song lyrics.
* * * * *
Though the wine beckons in the golden goblet,
Don’t drink yet - first, I’ll sing you a song!
The song of sorrow shall resound laughingly in your soul.
When sorrow draws near, the gardens of the soul will lie desolate,
Wilting and kills the Joy, the Song.
Dark is life, is death.
Lord of this house!
Your cellar is full of golden wine!
Here, this lute I call my own!
To strike the lute and empty the glass -
these are the things that go together.
A full glass of wine at the right moment
is worth more than all the riches of the world!
Dark is life, is death.
The firmament blue stands, and the earth
Will long stand firm and bloom in spring.
But you, Man, how long live you then?
Not a hundred years are you allowed to enjoy
all the rotten fruit of this earth!
Look over there!
In moonshine amongst the graves squats a wild-acting ghost
An ape it is!
Hear you, how his howling
Spends itself in the sweet air of the living!
Now take the wine! Now is the time - enjoy!
Empty the golden goblet to the dregs!
Dark is life, is death!
ain’t that a kick in the Dunkels? (I caught the first reference, I was just yankin’ everyone’s chain- nice translation BTW)
Denn mein Gluck-es liebt das Necken
Denn mein Gluck-es liebt die Tucken
Wow, DennisN. When I’m depressed, I don’t exercise or socialize and eat too much and sit around - my desk and the area around my comfortable chair gets all cluttered with piled-up unfinished procrastinated stuff.
When DennisN gets depressed he sings Wagner in the shower!
Even Inspector Morse just laid around and drank and listened to Wagner when he was depressed.
You’ve shown before that you’re an interesting and eclectic guy, DennisN.
There’s No Flu Shot for the Thrift Bug
by Bill Bonner London, England
You wanna know what is going on? David Rosenberg explains…
“US consumers are cutting back, and where they are not cutting back, they are scaling down. This new cycle is all about ‘getting small’ and it is deflationary. For yet another in the litany of signs pointing in the direction of social change towards thrift, have a look at what is transpiring at the upper echelons of the income strata - Now Even Millionaires See the Benefits of Budgeting on page B5 of the Saturday NYT is a must read.
“Not only are the rich trading down, but the article quotes a high net worth financial advisor who said ‘many of our clients are very happy to be sitting on bond portfolios and cash reserves.’ And see the article on page 2 of the Sunday NYT - Beauty Products Lose Some Appeal During Recession. According to the NPD Research Group, total sales of department store beauty products are down 7% from year-ago levels. Women are apparently opting for the ‘natural look’ - “some people are selectively replacing higher-priced items with cheaper products from drug stores and discount stores.”
Right on, David!
And here’s the CEO of Pepsico:
“The age of thrift is here.”
Even in Japan, after 20 years of coughing and sneezing, people have caught “the thrift bug,” says The New York Times.
What’s a consumer economy need in order to keep growing?
Uh…it’s needs consumer spending.
What do consumers need in order to boost spending?
Uh…they need more money!
Oh, there’s where it all starts to come apart, doesn’t it? Where do they get more money? They either earn it…or they borrow it. And right now, they can’t earn it - not with 12% unemployment in California! Workers have no bargaining power. And they can’t borrow it either. The banks won’t lend - not with the value of their collateral still falling.
Word comes this morning that mortgage delinquencies have hit a new record. And here’s a headline warning of worse to come:
“$30 billion home loan time bomb set for 2010.”
Even solvent homeowners who aren’t forced into foreclosure still find it beneficial to walk away from their houses. “Strategic defaults,’ says The Los Angeles Times, are becoming a problem for mortgage lenders.
On the other hand, there has been a huge reduction in productive capacity, but cyclical and structural.
Structurally, U.S. productive capacity has shrunk in some industries in favor of exports, while rising in other industries such as housing and finance — where we don’t need any more.
How quickly can we shift to producing other goods and services if the dollar sinks, there is economic growth elsewhere, and we can’t afford the imports? Might we end up with $3,000 TVs and PCs — and $100 per gallon oil — at today’s wage levels?
end up with $3,000 TVs and PCs — and $100 per gallon oil ??
IMO, If that were to happen, I think as a country we will turn inward…Isolationism, severe curtailment of both legal and illegal immigration and lastly a withdrawal of military assistance and foreign aid throughout the world…There is one (1) thing we can do…We can feed and shelter ourselves…
But would we be willing to give up our current cheap prices?
Some people no longer have that option anyways.
“There is one (1) thing we can do…We can feed and shelter ourselves…”
Sounds suspiciously socialistic to me.
I think as a country we will turn inward…Isolationism, severe curtailment of both legal and illegal immigration and lastly a withdrawal of military assistance and foreign aid throughout the world.
You say that like it’s a BAD thing.
Not at all Sammy….
I think this is the goal - poverty for the masses and wealth for the top 1% or less.
They either earn it…or they borrow it or wait for the govt to give it to them after the govt has taken it from a productive member of society.
There, I fixed that….
Rule number one of being the king: if your citizens are unhappy, you won’t be king for long.
As for “taking from productive members of society” how you do feel about paying for the bank bailouts? Remind me again who got the lion’s share of that money. Was it J6P? (the guy currently without the job?)
My colleague was telling me yesterday that I have a lot of money, no kids, no spouse, so I should be living it up. He would not listen to me tell him that I only put the zest in life when I have lots of overtime work. NO OT means no trips to the strip clubs or pubs. No buying of gold bullion. Any excess I have is going straight to treasury bills. I tried to tell him that this is a recession and my parents grew up in a depression. He would not listen. He would keep talking and talking…
Aw come on, live it up at least a little, Bill! We are not promised a cushy retirement, for what that might be worth anyway, no matter what we’ve got stashed. Naturally, I say this in hopes of cheap vicarious thrills. We’re the same age, but I’ve got 3 little ones, slowly dwindling savings, and my main hope for a return to fun and solvency is the fact my eldest son is to be weaned off the child support in the next few weeks, hopefully.
Balance is the key. Live each day as if it might be the last. At the same time, live as if there is no end of tomorrows and in some of them you might be decrepit.
I decided that children were essential to a fulfilled life. And they are both a risk to financial stability and a hedge against calamity. They have connected me to community. And are a constant source of worry. From an objective perspective, a wash. From a subjective perspective, a bonus.
Bill, I worry about you. You seem to have put all of your eggs in a future basket.
Nothing to worry about. All my sisters are married or divorced. Only one had kids. My closest friends are either DINKs or singles without kids. These are people in their 40s/50s.
My cousins all have kids - mostly large families six or more. I bet they wonder whatever happened to my siblings and me!
Growing up, we never discussed wanting kids. Nor did our parents push this on us in hopes of becoming grandparents. The oldest sister accidentally got pregnant.
And we had great parents - nothing mean about them taht would make us turn out this way. I figure my 40-something and 50-something friends are the same way.
See, I think you hang out only with people who are parents too. So you assume people like me are rare. I guess it goes each way.
A colleague at work is first generation American and tells me I’m going to die early because I have no kids. And he smiles as he says this.
How’s that for someone who is trying to project his own hierarchy of values on mine and thinks I should have the same as his?
It does not fit. Marriage, children, religion, groups, awe of government. None of that fits me. I cannot help it!
My job has been very unstable since the year 2000. I have to take life very seriously. Adding a recession to this, makes it much more unstable. I have my own goals and am getting closer and closer. It’s called ‘having an income from my diverse investment allocation and not needing a job!’
oops “All my sisters are married or divorced”
should be “All my sisters are single or divorced.”
How I rationalized my child support:
It’s going to be a lot easier for me to get used to taking home an extra $1000 bucks/month, that for the ex to make up for the $1000 hole suddenly appearing in her budget.
OTOH, she got remarried.
I agree that is one way to get through the child support struggle. Carrying the weight will make you stronger, while having somebody else do it for you will eventually weaken you. My ex’s only hope will be Soc Sec, and maybe glomming on to our son next. That I do fear, for his sake, but he’s so deep in her corner he won’t wake up till he’s 40.
Nice post wmbz…
“$30 billion home loan time bomb set for 2010.”
In light of the dollar amounts being flung all about by the government, $30B is pocket change.
“The age of thrift is here.”
Frugalistas! Frugalistas!
ya know wmbz?
I like your post(s).
You tell the truth…er…um -
Except it’s different here.
I promise - I’m living in some delusional world.
Yes, a hair of frugality exists; some stategic defaults (if one is looking); and a slight bit of thrift. (Memo to WI - Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!)
Dang, ya just can’t make this stuff up!
Thanks for the real deal posts.
Best,
Leigh
Sigh. Finally going on a boat trip for diving. Go to bed at 11pm. Woken up at 3:30AM to my car alarm going off. People smashed the window and stole the nav/stereo unit. I had to be careful going outside since a week ago 5 black kids beat a guy walking home from work and sent him to the hospital (to steal his cell phone?). Our parking lot is dark as can be, I notified the power company that the light is out, but they have yet to do anything. Probably disconnected from the light rail construction. The price of being a renter.
NOW do you see how CHEAP full glass coverage on a car really is?
Even if this happens once every 10+ years it pays for itself.
kinda miss the old nabe & the local vandals. Since I moved to the ‘burbs, I haven’t had my wildshield knocked out once, and it’s so old and pitted now I can’t hardly see through it. Meh.
meh -waving hand dismissively - it’s better in Montana or NY-
Va Beyatch in Virginia Beach -
Sucks to be violated.
I’d be hopping mad - you’re a larger person than I.
Best Always,
Leigh
There is a tradeoff between rental rate and crime risk — basically you can pay a higher rent to reduce your crime risk. I lived in an area where gunshots regularly pealed out at night in order to make grad school affordable, and many of my fellow grad students did the same.
I guess what I am saying is that one way to make housing affordable is to let the crime element run rampant…
You get what you pay for. If all nice neighborhoods were free, everyone would be living there…
I would say, get yourself a weapon, learn the laws in the local area where you are and defend yourself…
How is the real estate market over in the desert?Do they have realtors over there?Ar there any trees over in those steep mountains or just brush?I was wondering why there weren’t a lot of fires breaking out from all the explosives?
Actually,
I was out flying yesterday and I was suprised at the amount of green there really is. There are long vast parts of desert, but of course in the population center’s, there is usually an oasis. No one in the deep desert except the taliban….
That green would be the poppys under cultivation right?
No, that season is over. Most green is next to rivers or over underground streams. The mountains are rugged and there are alot of shrubs and bushes.
No one in the deep desert except the taliban ?
Lets Nuke-um then….Get serious or get out…Limited war “sucks”…
You can use a firearm to defend yourself in your home, in most states, but “defending yourself” unfortunately doesn’t extend to blasting scum you catch breaking into your car or your neighbor’s house. And most cops will just tell you “file and insurance claim.” Thanks guys, real helpful.
Unfortunately we are going to see a lot more property crime, since budget cuts mean police will be more constrained in responding to crimes, and prosecuters will be more selective in prosecuting them. Ordinary people are screwed, since the law won’t protect you but comes down very hard on those who take matters into their own hands.
exactly Sammy….
And in pro-crime states like Maryland, even defending yourself is questionable since criminals have “rights” to your stuff, your life, etc.
That’s why I like flyover country……….the police and the populace are sympathetic to people busting caps into criminals.
Woman I worked with was being stalked………cop asked her if she had a boyfriend…….she said no. Cop’s reply?
“You might think about going to (name of local $hit-kicker bar) some night, and getting one!”
Don’t entirely agree with “you get what you pay for”. Some people are just plain, ol’ a-holes no matter what neighborhood you’re in.
learn the laws in the local area where you are and defend yourself ??
Yeah right….You better have “Bullet Proof” evidence (key word; EVIDENCE) that the act you committed was in defense of your life because if you don’t, get ready for a criminal indictment from the DA’s office and then the Civil lawsuit from some scumbag plaintiff attorney…
One guy I’ve read on another blog who seemed to have experience in this line cautions that you’ll end up paying something like $20,000 for each round you fire, or something like that. Yep, insurance probably would be more cost-efficient.
I’m glad I live in the republic of North Carolina…
You can defend property and life and be ok….
Especially if the burglar is inside your house….just drag him back in if he makes it out…
In Colorado Springs they had a rash of break-ins at used car lots - lots of steros and other stuff being taken, and of course the useless CSPD would give the stardard “file an insurance report” to the victims. Finally one guy, an immigrant from Bosnia, started sleeping in his office every night with a gun. Two dirtbags came onto his lot at about two in the morning; he confronted them and shot and killed one. While a grand jury hasn’t indicted him - yet - earlier, angry statements he made to police will probably come back to haunt him - he said in effect, since you cops aren’t doing anything to stop this, I’ll do whatever I need to to protect my business. I’d be very surprised if he isn’t in jail or financially ruined by the time this runs its course.
Works for me.
All he needs to do is ask for a jury trial
In Texas you can kill ‘em. Break into my car? I can kill you. My house? Same thing. Hell, stand in my yard and threaten me? Road rage on me? You are so dead. Rob my store, person or the friend I’m with? Adios.
And that’s in daylight. At night? They damn near give you a medal. And yet the crooks never learn.
It’s one of the few nice things about Texas.
Eco - you first (nice) -
Taking anothers life is…er…well-
Life changing.
Don’t get me wrong - in a New York Minute if my family were threatened. Oh yeah, and I have the stuff to shoot such one in the face. Texas style!
Sammy - the good people in your community WILL (I think) defend the citizen vs criminals.
I know you will speak up - he is NOT a Vigalante. He is a friend.
Best always,
Leigh
Pay rules may prompt Goldman to shed bank charter.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Some investors believe Goldman Sachs Group Inc (GS.N) may try to shed its commercial banking charter to sidestep U.S. government efforts to rein in exorbitant Wall Street pay.
But regulators may force the firm to stay in the banking system.
The U.S. Federal Reserve is proposing new rules to limit pay packages in an effort to curb excessive risk-taking. Banks are expected to bridle under the new restrictions, with Goldman taking particular umbrage because of its history of outsized compensation deals for strong performers.
But Goldman is a massive bank — its $890 billion in assets make it the fifth-largest in the United States — and any difficulty it faces could bring trouble to the financial system. That means regulators are likely to continue to take a keen interest in the bank, investors said.
The stakes are high. Regulators are struggling to ensure that they fix the financial system so that the market meltdowns of 2008 are not repeated.
“The government is going to find a way, one way or another, to include (Goldman) in regulations,” said Walter Todd, a portfolio manager at Greenwood Capital Associates in South Carolina.
What exactly does a commercial bank charter allow a bank to do? I.e., what can a “bank” do without a commercial charter? Would Golden Sachs now be an investment firm?
Is this why Timmy wants to write those new regulations for all financial firms?
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/09/22/zimbabwe.farmers/index.html
I am very interested in comments on this article….
Obviously, I think this is socialism and social “justice” run amok. This is Robin Hood at it’s extreme. What do you guys think? Who do these farmer’s turn to?
It’s my theory that most societies need rich people. For as Zimbabwe is finding out, if there is no one rich, guess what everyone else is? Poor. In here is the failings of redistribution of wealth…
“It’s my theory that most societies need rich people.”
It’s my theory that most societies need the rule of law. Everything else follows.
Everything else follows.
You are correct. The rule of law isnt being followed in Zim…
How about in the US banking system? Has the rule of law been suspended until the financial crisis blows over?
most societies need the rule of law ??
Agreed…But what happens in a society with to many laws…??
Need it because we don’t exactly have it? Yes, I agree.
You bring to mind a famous example of agricultural productivity from the former Soviet Union. The farmers who were forced to work the large collective farms were also allowed to farm a small parcel of land in their own backyard. Guess which land produced the higher yields — the massive, too-big-to-fail collective farms, or the small backyard plots?
“too-big-to-fail”
I may have incorrectly applied this term, as at the end of the day, the Soviet Union’s system of top-down command-and-control economics turned out to be too-large-to-succeed. Leaders of Megabank, Inc, take note…
If you give human beings the choice of working for the greater good or working for themselves, it isn’t a big stretch to say that they’ll be much more energetic in looking out for Number One. Which is why socialism has been such a failure, despite its continued charm for those who wish to live off the efforts of others.
But if you can combine “working for themselves” & “working for the greater good” then you can achieve great things.
But if you can combine “working for themselves” & “working for the greater good” then you can achieve great things.
Yea, and if you had a pig that could shoot flames out it’s a**, you’d throw one hell of a party. I’m not saying you cant have one without the other, but, it’s usually not that extensive. Plus, you have to define “working for the greater good”. It’s definition differs depending on what side of the isle you are on…
The problem with your statement is, when in the context of giving for the greater good, the “greater good” always need more than those working for themselves are willing to give, hence, taking from the haves by force to give to the have nots.
Much of the internet is powered by software that is developed by people who are not paid and given away for free - from the Apache webservers, Linxu OS, PERL language, etc.
I doubt this site could exist if not for the work of thousands of those people( especially Ben!! ).
Apache webservers, Linxu OS, PERL language, etc.
Where can I download a copy of Linxu?
“….taking by force from the haves, to give to the have-nots……”
I have been hearing this from my Republican friends for years, and I agreed with it.
Then I got older, and realized that the crumbs that go to the “have-nots” pale in comparison to the money/benefits that the government is directing from the “have” to the “must have it all” crowd.
One man’s “socialism” is another man’s “business incentive”
“Which is why socialism has been such a failure, despite its continued charm for those who wish to live off the efforts of others.”
I don’t really believe it’s just the lazy folks who want socialism. The lazy can do just as well, or better, by gaming a capitalist system. It’s the idealists who desire socialism, which does has it’s academic appeal. The flaw, of course, is it doesn’t fit with human nature.
The example I like best of why socialism doesn’t work is student housing. The type where 6-8 students rent a house and share the common areas. It’s almost garaunteed that at least one of those people won’t bother doing their own dishes or take their turn. As soon as one person doesn’t clean up after themself, the others become tempted to do the same. In short order, no one is cleaning up.
Of course pure capitalism doesn’t work either. Without social support, too many people fall by the wayside. When society fails to meet the needs of too many people, the tipping point is reached and the system gets overthrown.
When I was in college, if you left your dirty dishes, etc. around too long, the greasy nasty stuff got put in your bed, preferably directly from the sink where you had left them soaking. Not too many people risked it.
when i was in college i made a pocket full of money ironing my roomates shirts for $2 bucks a pop.
Excellent post AL.
Have you ever considered why voluntary communes never last very long?
The idealistic plan is for everyone to share equally in both the labor and the fruits of that labor, but sooner or later some figure out how to take more than they give. Others may develop a “disability” that prevents them from working altogether. And one eventually decides he should be the leader, who is excused from the manual labor so he can govern the group. Wait, he needs an assistant, and sooner or later an enforcer, and then, well you get the picture.
The system collapses long before the drones outnumber the worker bees, unless it’s maintained by force.
pure capitalism doesn’t work either. Without social support, too many people fall by the wayside.
You gave an example of why socialism doesn’t work. What about capitalism?
some would argue that it is in fact that social support that keeps them by the wayside generation after generation.
“You gave an example of why socialism doesn’t work. What about capitalism?”
Have you ever played a game of Monopoly to the bitter end?
Have you ever played a game of Monopoly to the bitter end?
That’s a good place to start an analogy actually. The problem with Monopoly is - it’s all up to chance where you land. That’s pretty much the view of socialists - your lot in life is solely determined by the roll of the dice, and thus (in their view) in a capitalist society the rich keep getting richer until the poor are broke, and the rich “win”.
In the real world though, in a true capitalism, we have this thing called “choice”. So in a monopoly game your moves wouldn’t be determined by a roll of the dice, but by where you decide to move. So you get to move to your own property instead of landing on the rich guy’s property and having to pay him tons of rent. And so even though everyone’s not “equal”, they can all still be happy.
“some would argue that it is in fact that social support that keeps them by the wayside generation after generation.”
Social support removes some of the incentive for people to strive for success, but it also removes some of the incentive to overthrow the system.
OK, so two strikes against it.
“In the real world though, in a true capitalism, we have this thing called “choice”. ”
Unlike Monopoly, in the real world everyone doesn’t start out with the same bank roll. Everyone has some choice in life, but some have far more options than others.
ha Polly, police action to support the socialist movement! And Kirisdad, thanks.
Unlike Monopoly, in the real world everyone doesn’t start out with the same bank roll. Everyone has some choice in life, but some have far more options than others.
In a true capitalism, the one primary role of government is to make sure that everyone does have the same options.
The key though is that “options” doesn’t involve confiscation of other people’s stuff and/or freedoms.
“Social support removes some of the incentive for people to strive for success, but it also removes some of the incentive to overthrow the system.”
that sure works for Castro.
“In a true capitalism, the one primary role of government is to make sure that everyone does have the same options.”
In a capitalistic society, people have the option of sending thier kids to the best schools or providing seed money to start a business. Some can afford that, and some cannot. For youth growing up in the slums, the broad range of options might not be obvious to them, or even open.
“that sure works for Castro.”
And the US.
- Federal Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance
- Unemployment benefits
- Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
- Health Insurance for Aged and Disabled (Medicare)
- Grants to States for Medical Assistance Programs (Medicaid)
- State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
- Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
- Minimum wage
- Public education
- Limited free healthcare
Aaah, the usual brainwashed thoughts on socialism………….:-). Can you differentiate between socialism and communism, just wondering!?
So those countries over in the Netherlands where statistically people are touted to be the happiest in the the world, and which have some of the highest taxes — how do you reconcile that, since they have many, many socialist programs, which many say is the reason why they are happy and content.? They are also considered democratic, capitalistic, blah, blah blah.
Just curious, since you are all busy bad mouthing systems that seem to work for some countries, probably without ever having step foot out of the US.
Darn, I must be in a bad mood today. I need a job!!!!!
liberty doesn’t make the list?
So those countries over in the Netherlands where statistically people are touted to be the happiest in the the world, and which have some of the highest taxes — how do you reconcile that
Simple - drugs are legal there.
(And “countries over in the Netherlands”?…. is that like Holland and Amsterdam - those countries?)
Hey potential (I almost used PB, then realized that would cause confusion.)
I know I’m using socialism wrong (as social programs instead of capital being held by the state), but there really isn’t a better term that I’m aware of. What I’m getting at is that pure capitalism will end up concentrating wealth in the hands of the few very quickly, as having wealth is a significant strategic advantage in the accumulation of more wealth. Every capitalist nation has social systems that redistribute wealth not based on merit, and thus aren’t purely capitalist.
Good luck with the job hunting. I’ve had downtime myself.
Of course “Rich kids inherit more money,” is just the capitalist special case of the mere general “the powerful tend provide for their children.” Most kings have inherited the job, most “party members” are the children of party members, and even in Hollywood, the children of the famous have a leg up on the unknowns. It’s not so much a feature of capitalism, but of human nature. Of course, so is beating the crap out of those who annoy you, so the fact that something is “natural” doesn’t mean that it’s right or wrong, just hard to counteract.
Thanks Al,
I have an interview tomorrow at a large internet providing company (so i guess you all have 1 out of 3 guesses now that Bing is here). I know you all wish me well. Again, I have to go through that hours of interviewing and meeting many people but such is life.
Hopefully no-one falls asleep on me for this one..:-)
If ‘true capitalism’ means a ‘winner-take-all’ system, history shows us that eventually the rich, many of the tiny middle class, and many more of the poor, die in a cataclysmic revolution/meltdown. If this isn’t the case, pray tell the example? (I suspect ‘true capitalism’ will be one of those airy ideas that goes *poof* when you examine it in the light of the ‘real world’.)
Potential, sincere good wishes for you. I will “send” good vibes. Hey, ya never know. There might be something to this ‘connectedness’ stuff. From personal experience, I can vouch for the old adage “There are no atheists in a foxhole”.
Pascal’s wager and all.
“…If this isn’t the case, pray tell the example? ”
Why, in Ayn Randville, alpha! Sheesh.
why the large collective farms had the best yields of course because everyone puts the greater good above all else no matter how much the other guys slacked off while you did all the hard work on that large collective farm.
How did you turn the sacrasm switch into the invisible mode, Michael?
I bet it involved spelling sarcasm correctly.
Your key word is “extreme.” Certainly societies need rich people, but the age-old question is, how much is enough? How many riches should the rich accumulate? How many yachts can they waterski behind?
If you have somebody with $51K and give $1K to a $49K guy so you both have $50K, that’s extreme redistribution. But what if you have somebody with $18 million and take $9 million of it to give housing and food stamps to 500 people? How much a fail is that? The rich guy is still rich, the poor 500 are still poor. But at least the poor aren’t living and dying in the streets.
so you give them the money…they get fed and housed for say…5 years.
now what?
More like 100 poor people for five years. But anyway, presumably during those five years, at best the poor person would have some training and obtain a paying job such that he produces more than he takes. And perhaps his children have a shot at a better education. At the very worst, he isn’t using the more expensive of the public services like homeless medical care or the prison system.
…But what if you have somebody with $18 million and take $9 million of it to give housing and food stamps to 500 people?.
What you’d have is a society where NOBODY would let their wealth rise above $9 million. To do so would be foolish, as anything above the limit would be taken away. (..or wealthy people leave for greener pastures, or hide the money somehow.)
$9 mill becomes the pinnacle of wealth and is declared “too much”. The limit gets lowered to one million.. 8M is taken away.. and soon nobody will accumulate more than one million.
Eventually you have a society that lacks the incentive to create wealth. Everyone is acceptably “poor” or is penalized.
Jobs are provided by the state since no business people in their right minds would set up shop in such a place.
I’ll take “what is the future of America” for $1,000, Alex.
But if I do get the answer right, I’ll be taxed $1,100 on the winnings!
Already, lots of people are all for limiting pay for some people.
Limiting income and limiting accumulated wealth are not much different. The principle (or lack of principles) behind them is exactly the same.
Hard times do funny things to people’s brains..
“I’ll take “what is the future of America” for $1,000, Alex.
But if I do get the answer right, I’ll be taxed $1,100 on the winnings!”
you are not very familiar with estate tax law are you…now you could sue the hell out of your tax adviser for gross negligence and probably win…but it is possible.
i should have said that it WAS possible. i have not practiced individual or estate taxation in about 10 years so not sure of any changes.
Hmmm but it’s okay to limit the pay of J6P (layoffs, offshoring, wage freezes, concessions, illegal labor, raises less than real inflation) but not his boss?
Do as I say, not as I do?
but it’s okay to limit the pay of J6P (layoffs, offshoring, wage freezes, concessions, illegal labor, raises less than real inflation) but not his boss?
Do you not see the difference between the limiting being done by the ‘free market’ (I would argue it’s not exactly free) vs by the gov’t?
They’re grossly different.
You mean “incentive to create wealth above 9 million.” I guess 9 million isn’t enough for you?
(I think 9 M is a little low, but this is just an example)
I guess 9 million isn’t enough for you?
I guess 100k isn’t enough for you? When others only have 50k?
(see the problem?)
Don’t play the guilt trip bullshit. I SAID that there was a big difference between transferring $1K from $51K to $49K, and taking $9 million from someone who has $18M. Your example of $100K vs. $50K is heavily weighted to the $49-51 end of the spectrum, which I think would be too radical even for the extreme communists.
And so again, the age-old question remains “how much is enough.” Or, in a larger sense, how broad do you think the middle class should be? Top 10% giving to the bottom 10%? Top 49% giving to the bottom 49%? THAT’s your problem.
As it is, the tax increases Obama was talking about was what, top 5%? And even then that was just taking slightly more %, not even taking it all. And you still object.
I don’t think it would be difficult to calculate some minimum figure for an outrageous luxury lifestyle, and then maybe double it and index to inflation, or what have you. If you really want to accumulate more than that, try your luck in Somalia.
“Your key word is “extreme.” Certainly societies need rich people, but the age-old question is, how much is enough? How many riches should the rich accumulate? How many yachts can they waterski behind?”
+1. The economic differences that divide North and South America is the fact that wealth is far more heavily concentrated in S. America. This has led to a problem where wealth is poorly invested because their are not enough talented people making good decisions. This is where the U.S. has been heading for the last 30 years.
+2
Jon, you are tonight’s grand prize winner!
If I read this right, this is what we have right now.
how much is enough? How many riches should the rich accumulate? How many yachts can they waterski behind?
In my world, it’s not up to you to even ask those questions. You then become judge…..
Trust me Stpn2me, the rich have already judged you.
The people who rule Zimbabwe are rich. And that is where we are going here. But in a U.S. twist, many of the rulers are in the private sector.
What we could actually use is a broad middle class.
1 + 1 WT…
I believe the broad middle class was already “used.”
You are soooo on a roll tonight, eco.
Love it.
“Obviously, I think this is socialism and social “justice” run amok.”
You must be non-Christian.
Plenty of rich people in the oil producing countries of Africa and plenty of poor people too.
I agree with combo, in reality great wealth inequaility leads to a loss of democracy and the rule of law.
in reality great wealth inequaility leads to a loss of democracy and the rule of law.
And what leads to that inequality? I would surmise when a populace feels sorry for itself and develops a sense of entitlement.
I would venture that the rich feel most entitled … to lobby kleptocrats to get pet bills passed to help their industry, and to buy first-rate legal talent to confuse juries when they get in a jam.
And what leads to that inequality? I would surmise when a populace feels sorry for itself and develops a sense of entitlement.
Well let’s see, when companies become so rich and powerfull that they control government. Then they create an environment that promotes the outsourcing of jobs and manufacturing to countries that pay slave labor wages and allow the dumping of toxic waste in the streets. Then the gov covers up the falling income by lowering interest rates so that it’s citizens still feel confident and spend and invest. Finally when the sht hits the fan the gov prints a lot of money to cover the losses of wallstreet gamblers at the expense of the citizens.
It seems like this sort of plan could lead to a country with very few elites and a lot of poor people.
companies become so rich and powerfull that they control government.
Then vote out said govt when it doesnt represent you….
Then the gov covers up the falling income
No need to do that, it just costs cheaper to have it done somewhere else. It’s simple economics. Keep inflated wages and benefits annd things cost more, hence consumers dont buy…It cant get any simpler than that.
Finally when the sht hits the fan the gov prints a lot of money to cover the losses of wallstreet gamblers at the expense of the citizens.
Agreed to the first part. But I dont only blame gamblers. I also blame the idiots who signed the notes knowing or should have known they couldnt afford the house…..
” Then vote out said govt when it doesnt represent you….”
That’s what the bread and circus is for, throw in a war, some hot topics like abortion, then buy off both sides and bingo you run the show no matter who they vote for. Your thinking too small stpn
“” it just costs cheaper to have it done somewhere else. It’s simple economics. Keep inflated wages and benefits annd things cost more, hence consumers dont buy. It cant get any simpler than that. “”
Only because you make it simple for yourself.
The reality is that globilization works as long as natural resources are endless, but once that fantasy is put to rest globilization results in a race to the bottom for labor. I’d think as a military man you’d agree with the statement that the US needs to maintain our manufacturing and technology capabilities/advantages over the enemy. Your cheap product made in china is only cheap because the costs have been heaped on you and others in ways you don’t even think about, via pollution of our air and water, via increased taxes to pay for unemployment, via fewer customers for local US companies, via our military providing safety for world oil, and trade ect ect.
“And what leads to that inequality? I would surmise when a populace feels sorry for itself and develops a sense of entitlement.”
My non-scientific, non-supported observation is that when times are good, everyone benefits. When times are bad, the rich can protect themselves better than the rest. The disparities grow the most in bad economic times.
most societies need rich people
I would say societies need a constant flow of upward mobility.
i agree…however…upward mobility (with a few exceptions) is a multigenerational achievement. it is not instantaneous.
my grandfather was dirt poor…my parents were lower to middle middle class and i am probably in the upper middle to lower upper class.
i can’t remember exactly who said this:
i war so that my son can be a businessman…so that his son can be a poet.
“I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain.”
-John Adams
lol…well i reckon i got the condensed version.
He means so the poet doesn’t have to work? Living off the old inheritance? I guess writing poetry is work.
“…i war so that my son can be a businessman….”
Interesting slip there.
I’ve noticed that you get your snark in late, ahansen.
Your cowardice is showing.
Agreed, Lehigh. Key word here being “flow.” When upward mobility stagnates you get an aristocracy.
“Upward mobility” entails fair competition and a meritocracy.
You won’t get that in this day and age, where the IQ’s of young children are stunted by stressful living conditions, where each industry is controlled by an oligopoly of too-big-to-fail companies with favour from the Courts, where margins-of-scale suffocate better mousetraps, where the highest return on investment is the purchase of a Sentor, and where the idiot sons of rich and connected daddies can buy their way through Yale and the Naval Academy.
Try again.
Its my theory that people need food. Burn down enough farms, stop the flow of goods and all hell will break loose.
I’m not sure we need them. But they could come in handy in famine times. Think about it. They get regular medical care and graze on organic food, right? Some of the women can be a bit too thin, though.
We have a local builder running a barrage of TV commercials, dispelling housing market “myths”. They run them #1 thru #7, mostley the same old now is the best time to buy retreads. # 7 states that the myth that home prices have farther to fall is just that, a myth.
” With interest rates at all time lows, and buyers incentive tax credits, it is highly unlikely home builders will reduce their prices, any farther”.
Typical urgency drivel, and of course that’s what they do, is sell houses. However they are leaning more and more into the investment adviser category, beyond the now is the time to buy repeats. They lace it with, the think of your families future arena.
Anyway comes across as desperation to me, but there will be plenty rushing at to grab a deal, at what they think is a blue light special.
That kind of garbage is the most difficult part of this housing collapse to get beyond. They should be in prison.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/23/real_estate/home_price_comparison/index.htm?postversion=2009092307
Check out the changes in prices on the same type of home. It must be crazy to live in Cali! The price in Fayetteville N.C. was good. I cant wait to get back home…
“1 La Jolla Calif. $2,125,000″
Last month’s DataQuick numbers show the following for single-family home sales in La Jolla:
La Jolla 92037 31 $1,354,500 -24.8%
I.e., 31 homes sold at a median price of $1,354,500, down 24.8 percent in price from August 2008.
I am guessing the median single family home selling in La Jolla has at least 4 brs and 2.5 baths. Under these modest assumptions regarding an area full of large houses, it looks like the actual recent sale prices are lower than the CNN-reported figure by at least (1,354,500/2,125,000-1)*100 = -36 percent.
P.S. I still have not figured out whether the DataQuick median sales price numbers are upwardly biased by incorrectly averaging in prices at which the banks are taking back foreclosure homes which failed to sell at auction.
Fayetteville sounds nice. The area certainly is. I’d be tempted to move there just to have you as a neighbor. I bet your wife is as intelligent as you appear to be.
You’ve never been to Fayetteville have you? There’s a reason it’s cheap to exist there. If you’re looking at living in the sandhills, I’d suggest Southern Pines.
http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2009/09/18/lawler-duh-fha-shouldve-done-this-long-ago/
FHA will tighten lending standards….
From the article: “For refinances of FHA loans, the agency will make new requirements for verifying income and other quality-control checks. It also will impose a maximum loan value of 125% of the current estimated home value on refinanced loans, in line with government-backed mortgage investors Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. A limit of 125% will strike many as way too high, but it’s better than no limit at all.”
Yeah, let’s really tighten those lending standards! No one has the guts to stand up and put this country on a strong financial footing!
A limit of 125% will strike many as way too high
LOL - OK whatever.
Anybody who doesn’t think 125% is way too high needs to have their head examined.
FHA: The next Too Big to Fail…
It’s almost exactly like the Savings & Loan disaster all over again.
Henry Kaufman wrote in his memoirs:
” … most predictions fall within a rather narrow range that does not deviate from consensus views in the financial community. In large measure, this reflects an all-too-human propensity to minimize risk and avoid isolation. There is, after all, comfort in running with the crowd. Doing so makes it impossible to be singled out for being wrong, and allows one to avoid envy or resentment that often inflicts those who are right more often than not.”
And that’s why this consumer economy is so bogus, as it tries to reconcile the herd instinct with the allure of individualism.
Which, come to think of it, probably explains why on my daily rides I reguarly see heavily tattooed parents pushing pricey jogging strollers. Ain’t it touching when society tames “the rebel”?
I always snicker when I see a soccer mom with a tramp stamp peeking through.
“I always snicker when I see a soccer mom with a tramp stamp peeking through”.
The same with the teenage girls. I’m meaner though. If I am with my teenage daughter in line and see that, I start to talk about how you will not get an epidural for child birth, because ink and spinal fluid don’t mix and the anesthesiologist will not risk it. Its quit funny to see the wheels turn in there faces, and the looks I get are very funny.
MRIs don’t like tattoo ink either, from what I’m told.
I just ask my daughters to think about where that “tramp stamp” is going to end up by the time they are 60…..
I think people under 30 that do not have tattoos are the rebels now a days.
Agreed. Every time I take my kids to a public pool it seems that most of the people there have them. They make unattractive people even more so. What’s truly hideous is seeing the AARP types sporting new tats. Ewwww….
I got my one and only tattoo a few years ago (I’m in my 40s). Son’s name inside a 4 leaf clover on my hip. (Son was born on St. Patty’s day.) Very few actually see it as I don’t wear low rise pants or string bikinis.
I used to think tattoos were icky. They don’t really bother me anymore.
One Christmas my daughters and I were passing Hot Topic at the local mall. The chubby 13 year old was whining to her mother, “How can I be a goth if you won’t buy me goth clothes?” We almost died laughing.
Why is it that goths tend to be overweight? For being so interested in trancsinding the earth in death, they sure love the earthly pleasures of food.
Umm I think a lot are gay…so looking beautiful to guys is not high on their list of things to do.
” Ain’t it touching when society tames “the rebel”?”
It’s easy to identify a non-comformist rebel, because they look like all the other non-comformist rebels.
That’s long been my theory on smoking. These sad, beaten slobs puffing out on the pavement were once slightly daring rebels in HS, at least within their clique.
I had an epiphany last night, as I observed all the new tattoo joints in my town: someday a WalMart type operation will start a chain tattoo outfit and wipe out all these mom and pop outfits. I would LOL.
…oh wait, I’m in Montana. Has this already started happening? We’re usually 10 years behind.
Actually the buisness trend is reverse. There is a company planning nationwide tattoo removal services as the economy tanks and finding a job becomes harder to do… That tat might just hold you back- who’d have thunk?
That is certainly going to be a growth industry!
If you could actually afford it. It ain’t cheap and if you are already unemployed, then its on the ole CC.
“That tat might just hold you back- who’d have thunk?”
That was the assumption here until fairly recently. Now everyone here has tattoos, at least most the people handing me my tacos at Taco del Sol or my change at WalMart.
Now combine Henry Kaufman with Edward Bernays and you have a rock solid foundation for the greatest psychological warfare system ever created and then used…. to sell everything.
And most people don’t stand a chance of ever being able to think for themselves, even now with the entire knowledge of the world at our fingertips.
The irony is stupefying, stultifying, stratifying, stupefying.
Everyone with a pulse knows to fed will keep their lending rate at 0. Once the DOW hits 10,000 there is great expectation amongst so called economists that this will create a much needed psychological boost, and draw in more investors.
Stock futures creep higher ahead of Fed decision
US stock futures rise slightly as investors await conclusion of Fed policy meeting
September 23, 2009
NEW YORK (AP) — Stock futures are creeping higher Wednesday as investors await the Federal Reserve’s decision on interest rates.
Markets overseas were mixed. Asian markets fell slightly overnight, while major European indexes inched up in afternoon trading.
The U.S. central bank is expected to keep its benchmark interest rate at a record low of near zero, but investors are hoping for a clearer indication of when the Fed may raise rates in the future. Investors will also be looking for more clues about the strength of the economy’s recovery in the statement to be released at the conclusion of the Fed’s two-day policy meeting later Wednesday.
Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke said last week that the recession was “likely over,” though high unemployment will be a challenge for some time.
Is the stock market a legalized ponzi scheme?
The stock market is a legalized ponzi scheme.
Fixed.
Nothing is legal about the manuipulation going on in the stock market.
But nothing will be done about it.
The goal is to take away the savings and value of work produced by the productive and give it to crooks. From that viewpoint, this “recovery” is a smashing success!
But! But! Isn’t that the very definition ofsocialeesm that is propounded around here!
How can this be? I thought the stock market was the very pinnacle of capitalism? Oh wait, it IS.
Which blog are you reading? Talk about knee-jerk reaction. Last time I checked, nobody was extolling the virtues of Wall Street and the totally uninfluencible movements of the Dow. Sheesh.
legalized ponzi scheme ?
Don’t know about Ponzi but I do believe its a poker game….If you have ever sat a a high stakes game of poker or watched it on TV with players with stacks of chips to the sky you know that they move the game with their sheer weight of table dominance…Thats how I see the stock market…Thats why I have never owned any stock although, I wish I would have purchased BofA at $1.
The stock market (and ALL trading markets for that matter ) are gamed regularly. This can be confirmed just by searching Google News.
Insider trading is the least of the techniques.
Doesn’t mean YOU can’t make money off it, but you have to be quick, nimble, smart and under the radar.
Up, up, up!
Once the DOW hits 10,000 there is great expectation amongst so called economists that this will create a much needed psychological boost, and draw in more investors.
One of the things I’m learning is that “people” have an ever-diminishing effect on the stock market these days. It’s generally driven by market insiders. See the Pearlstein article I posted below for instance; it appears much of the current market for instance is purely driven by newly-created Fed money, not main-street-sourced investments.
“People” don’t have money any more to invest based on psychological boosts. They’re all too much in debt to the megabankers. The megabankers are the ones using their wealth to rig the markets in their favor.
Wow - the stats in this article are incredible.
WSJ 9/23/09
Delayed Foreclosures Stalk Market
By RUTH SIMON and JAMES R. HAGERTY
Debra and Arthur Scriven were served notice in June 2008 that their mortgage lender, a unit of Citigroup Inc., was preparing to foreclose on their home. Fifteen months later, the Scrivens are still in their home near Columbia, S.C., and battling to stay there, even though a dispute with the lender over how much they owe prompted them to stop making regular payments last year.
Legal snarls, bureaucracy and well-meaning efforts to keep families in their homes are slowing the flow of properties headed toward foreclosure sales, even when borrowers are in deep distress. While that buys time for families to work out their problems, some analysts believe the delays are prolonging the mortgage crisis and creating a growing “shadow” inventory of pent-up supply that will eventually hit the market.
The size of this shadow inventory is a source of concern and debate among real-estate agents and analysts who worry that when the supply is unleashed, it could interrupt the budding housing recovery and ignite a new wave of stress in the housing market.
…
As of July, mortgage companies hadn’t begun the foreclosure process on 1.2 million loans that were at least 90 days past due, according to estimates prepared for The Wall Street Journal by LPS Applied Analytics, which collects and analyzes mortgage data. An additional 1.5 million seriously delinquent loans were somewhere in the foreclosure process, though the lender hadn’t yet acquired the property. The figures don’t include home-equity loans and other second mortgages
Moreover, there were 217,000 loans in July where the borrower hadn’t made a payment in at least a year but the lender hadn’t begun the foreclosure process. In other words, 17% of home mortgages that are at least 12 months overdue aren’t in foreclosure, up from 8% a year earlier.
That’d be just shy of 3 million homes that are over 90 days delinquent or in the foreclosure process. (The wording implies that the 217k isn’t part of the first 1.2M number, though it seems like it would be; not sure).
link
FORECLOSURE TSUNAMI WARNING!!!
You can’t just go screaming out stuff like that PB. You need a proper alert system using colours or something.
Damn big numbers… and more to come. Which goes right back to the fact, that interrupting the natural cleansing process, just gum’s up the works even more. Thus creating a much bigger problem in the not to distant future.
What then, mo gubmint intervention?
Never you worry. You can be sure the gubmint will intervene.
Intervention is already the only thing keeping the foreclosure avalanche from coming down the mountain. But with a blizzard in progress dumping lots more snow up top, how long will the props be able to carry the weight?
Longer than you can stay solvent?
Thankfully since the debt is virtual and not real - 1’s and 0’s on a computer instead of physical money - it’s pretty light. The Fed has the latest computer technology, allowing the virtual printing presses to go to really high numbers in support.
“Longer than you can stay solvent? :-)”\
I’m not the one going insolvent. I would presume that would be the people trying to repay unrepayable debts.
What then, mo gubmint intervention ??
More rewarding bad behavior…
BTW, for those of you with dead tree editions of the WSJ, that article is buried on page A10. Don’t know about you folks, but I am definitely out of the home purchase market until clearer evidence on the accuracy Mr. Burns’ statement materializes:
“There’s going to be a flood [of bank-owned homes] listed for sale at some point,” says John Burns, a real-estate consultant based in Irvine, Calif. When that happens, Mr. Burns believes, home prices will fall further, particularly in markets with large numbers of foreclosures. Overall, he expects home prices to decline 6% next year.
I am guessing he pulled the 6% figure out of his arse.
Why do I doubt the 6% figure?
1. As I showed above, even without a “flood of foreclosures,” La Jolla SFR prices are off by over 20 pct since last August.
2. Between the interest-rate suppressing effect of the Fed’s mortgage purchase program (they have apparently been purchasing 80 pct of recent new mortgage originations), Dough-4-Dumps and federal mortgage guarantees, the gubmint already has the pedal to the medal on housing market stimulus, yet the effects have barely registered on home prices.
3. CA unemployment is still rising, even while delinquent mortgages are reaching the breaking point in increasing numbers.
4. CA just ended a foreclosure moratorium last week.
5. Recovery from the financial crisis is likely to take longer and be weaker than expected.
6. Households are ramping up precautionary saving.
7. All told, even though prices have declined from the bubble peak, the market does not fundamentally support SoCal home prices at anywhere near their current level.
I wonder how many of those are rental properties.
More than 45% of Option-ARM mortgages already in default before reset/recast wave that begins in 2010. This is the reason why I mentioned the much-talked about “next wave” of foreclosure starting in 2010-2011 won’t be a spiking event, it is already happening now as almost 50% are already in some kind of default state:
Of the $189 billion securitized Option ARM loans outstanding, 88% have yet to experience a recast event … Of these loans that have not yet recast, 94% have utilized the minimum monthly payment to allow their loans to negatively amortize.
…
Further evidence of option ARM underperformance in the last year lies in the number of outstanding securitized Option ARMs either 90 days or more delinquent, in foreclosure or real estate-owned proceedings, which has increased from 16% to 37%. Total 30+ day delinquencies are now 46%, despite the fact that only 12% have recast and experienced an associated payment shock. Instead, negative and declining equity has presented a larger problem: due to high concentrations in California, Florida, and other states with rapidly declining home prices, average loan-to-value ratios have increased from 79% at origination to 126% today. ‘Negative equity and payment shocks will continue as Option ARM loans recast in large numbers in the c
Here’s apparently part of the reason why equities are up so much lately, and also an explanation for the bank profits and bonuses. If what’s written in this article is true, then I truly have zero hope now for the U.S. economy, since it is completely rigged. The only possible way out of this is to abolish the Fed, and we all know that’s not happening.
A New Bubble Of the Fed’s Creation
By Steven Pearlstein
Wednesday, September 23, 2009
For the past two years, the central challenge of U.S. economic policy has been to find a way to stabilize the financial system and the economy without reinflating the bubble or going back to the days of consuming more than we produce. In the end, that may prove harder than it seems.
…
Less encouraging is what’s happening on Wall Street. It turns out that all those bold and necessary steps by the Federal Reserve to prevent the financial system from collapsing wound up creating so much liquidity that it has now spawned another financial bubble.
Let’s start with the $1.45 trillion that the Fed has committed to propping up the mortgage market — money that, for the most part, was simply printed. Effectively, most of that has been used to buy up bonds issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from investors, who turned around and used the proceeds to buy “safer” U.S. Treasury bonds. At the same time, the Fed used an additional $300 billion to buy Treasurys directly. With all that money pouring into the market, you begin to understand why it is that Treasury prices have risen and interest rates fallen, even at a time when the government is borrowing record amounts of new money.
As it was printing all that money, the Fed was also lowering the interest rate at which banks borrow from the Fed and each other, to pretty close to zero. What didn’t change was the interest rate banks charged everyone else. As a result, “spreads” between what banks pay for money and what they charge are near record highs.
So who is borrowing? By and large, it’s not households and businesses, which are reluctant to borrow during a recession. Rather, it’s hedge funds and other investors, who have been using the money to buy stocks, corporate bonds and commodities, driving prices to levels unsupported by the business and economic fundamentals.
The excess liquidity is even being used to finance a new “carry trade” in which global investors borrow at U.S. rates and buy government bonds in places like Australia, where prevailing rates are higher. Because the carry trade involves exchanging dollars for foreign currencies, it has been a major contributor to the recent decline in the dollar.
Naturally, this has been a blessing for Wall Street’s biggest banks, whose trading desks have not only made big money executing and financing the investment strategies of others, but have also been trading actively for their own accounts. And with bubble profits come bubble bonuses.
…
link
This is exactly what some of us here have been describing for some time. They are trading b/c it’s the only place to make money, which leads to the conclusion we are living through one of the largest speculative manias known to man. And yes, the behavior is continually stoked by the almighty fed and its promise of everlasting asset price increases.
Technology has made speculation a lot easier. You should look up Kindleberger. Usually a change in technology starts the process. We peaked first with Internet stocks, then Housing and Commodities mania, but we’re still going — trading and speculating — looking for the next big thing. When this finally implodes, the Dow will be under 1000.
“When this finally implodes, the Dow will be under 1000.”
I’m not seeing a reason that this should have to implode. In fact, I would guess that the fed will eventually be forced to print enough money to get us out of our debts, and the market will go to the moon.
And so will the cost of food and fuel, which the average Joe will no longer be able to afford.
Average Joe is unemployed already. And he can only afford food & fuel now because Uncle Obama keeps sending the unemployment comp checks. The unemployment comp checks will just come in with bigger numbers on them, which will be helpful with inflating away the debts. That’s win-win.
Back in the real world, the checks stop coming and people live in tent cities, the shelters and food banks are overflowing and unable to keep pace and their children rob and steal.
I’ve lived through it twice.
Thanks for the reference - I hadn’t heard of that guy, but looks interesting.
One would think we would have learned after 1987.
FWIW - this to me is why regulatory changes are all the more dangerous now. All our technology-driven models (risk models etc.) generally assume a static state of regulation driving a static investor psychological mindset. When regulations change though (e.g. like all the ones for housing did, most especially interest rates being dropped), the models don’t account for the psychological change driven by those government/Fed - induced changes. Since everything’s faster now due to economic automation, there isn’t enough of an adjustment period for influential changes before things can go kablooey.
Who’d've thunk that flood of Fed-provided liquidity would somehow find its way back to Wall Street?
Yeah - totally took me by surprise.
(Not)
So many people ‘making’ money shuffling electronically generated currency around. These people could contribute so much more to society picking strawberries. Keep the illegal aliens, deport the financiers.
Are you saying that the financiers are non-productive and taking money from people who are?
Hmmm, what is that we call it around here… oh yeah, socialism.
“…For the past two years, the central challenge of U.S. economic policy has been to find a way to stabilize the financial system and the economy…”
TrueDeceiver’s™: “You Lie!” “You Lie!” “You Lie!” ….It started on Jan 21st 2009!
“I’m Opie™ Obama…and I approve this remembrance.”
What’chyall think about this take on the shadow inventory situation?
This guy is leveling some very serious charges at high level government officials. I wonder whether enough Constitutional checks and balances remain intact for some of these charges to be explored? Or does the financial crisis automatically suspend the rule of law until the sun is shining on the banking sector once again?
So what’s going on here?
Simple: An enormous number of banks are holding loans at or close to “par” that really aren’t. They’re holding mortgages at massively-inflated values, even on defaulted properties, and this is why you are not seeing more foreclosure sales - that is, why inventory is being held back. If they sell it the accountants will force recognition of the loss, which will render them instantly insolvent, but so long as they “extend and pretend” they are marking these loans way, way above recovery value. The upshot of this is that these firms’ balance sheet claims on asset values are massively inflated, regulators know it, and they’re intentionally ignoring it.
I have been sounding the alarm on this for more than a year; it has in fact been the focus of multiple petitions to Congress and the cause of thousands of dollars of personal expense faxing letters and Tickers to members warning them of the danger of letting this sort of accounting misdirection continue.
The claim of banking sector health and “successful rescue by Treasury and The Fed” is in fact false. No such thing has occurred. What’s going on here is nothing more or less than intentional false claims of asset “valuation”, which is repeatedly exposed when the FDIC is finally forced to seize institutions, exposing the lies. Then, suddenly, 20, 30, even 40% losses on alleged “asset books” come out into the light and the taxpayer eats them.
The bank executives and accountants that played this game with the books should have been arrested and the bank thrown into receivership over a year ago.
Oh by the way, just as with all such “extend and pretend” games (otherwise known as fraud when practiced by anyone without a “government can cheat all it wants and nobody goes to jail” card) the longer you play this game, the longer you wait to do the right thing, the more money it costs you (in this case the Taxpayer gets the inevitable bill.)
For those of you who say that the FDIC is “not the responsible party”, that’s nonsense. OTS/OCC are the agencies that perform primary regulation for any federally-chartered bank but the FDIC is the agency that is responsible for resolution, and they are always working together in this regard.
…
“…but so long as they “extend and pretend”
Silly Mr. Bear, it’s a good tactic, why before you can say: “quick, look over there!” …the Chinese will be over here “snapping up” US real estate at “cheap” prices!
No surprise here…
Study shows U.S.bank CEO pay dwarfs rest of world.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - You wouldn’t know it by his pay stubs, but Jiang Jianqing heads the world’s largest bank.
Jiang, chairman of Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, made just $234,700 in 2008. That’s less than 2 percent of the $19.6 million awarded to Jamie Dimon, chief executive of the world’s fourth-largest bank, JPMorgan Chase & Co (JPM.N).
The contrast illustrates the massive differences in pay among the CEOs of the world’s top banks. The compensation of the CEOs of the largest U.S. banks towers above what’s paid to banking chiefs in other parts of the world, according to a Reuters analysis of pay at the 18 biggest banks by market value.
Excessive compensation at banks is expected to be discussed this week when the Group of 20 nations meets in Pittsburgh. But consensus on the issue remains a distant hope as there continue to be vast differences in how bankers are paid, from the CEO on down.
The United States is home to four of the nine largest banks in the world — JPMorgan, Bank of America Corp (BAC.N), Wells Fargo & Co (WFC.N) and Citigroup Inc (C.N). It is also home to four of the six most handsomely rewarded bank CEOs.
“The U.S. executive pay levels have always dwarfed pay for companies elsewhere in the world,” said Sarah Anderson, a fellow with the Institute for Policy Studies, which is critical of Wall Street, and co-author of the recent study “America’s Bailout Barons.”
“They have claimed it is impossible to recruit people without paying such compensation. Yet, if you look at the pay levels in Europe and in a lot of Asian countries, somehow they manage to find people who can run major global firms while making a fraction of what they make in the U.S.,” she said.
Stpn2 says we need these rich bankers or else everyone will be poor??
Quote him on that. And this is a challenge. I did not read anything about bankers in Stpn2’s statement.
We need the profit motive and the assurance that one will be able to keep his profits in order for societies to advance. That is what Stpn2 meant.
Here is his quote
“It’s my theory that most societies need rich people. For as Zimbabwe is finding out, if there is no one rich, guess what everyone else is? Poor.”
Didn’t say anything about how they became rich, we just need rich people.
Its the same way with power.
We need the profit motive and the assurance that one will be able to keep his profits in order for societies to advance
Well weren’t bankers motivated by fat profits and the assurances that they would be able to keep their profits no matter what?? So as a society we should now be ready to advance, grab your hat! it’s up up and away.
Thanks Bill…
What we need are laws and a tax system that increase the odds that people who work hard, and produce needed products or services end up on top financially and politically.
What we are becoming is a country where those that manipulate, and bribe win every time. Thus the elite won’t work because they are guaranteed a win, and the poor won’t work because they are guaranteed a loss.
I once read an article that suggested that oil wealth was the greatest curse a country could have in terms of developing a democracy. The reason - The elites didn’t have to invest in the population to create wealth from themselves. If they could just grab hold of power and keep it they would be immensely wealthy. Well the elites in our country have figured ways to profit without a middle class so buckle up.
This is much more effective when its compared against a Chinese bank’s CEO. How funny. What about one from the 51st state - the UK?
I thought our 51st state was Iraq….
Just got back from my little branch bank (regions) two people I knew in the mgt. dept. were layed off yesterday. I asked the mgr. what happened, she said that mgt. apps were down and many that they are getting do not qualify. So it goes, more brown squirts.
I’m confused. They were laid off because management apps were down and only the unqualified were applying? Are they in human resources? Or their only responsibility was to oversee new recruits?
mgt = mortgage
ITEM: Congress is not going to be anywhere close to passing a budget bill for the start of the new fiscal year a week from Thursday. Consequently, a bill calling for an extension of present spending provisions through the month of October has been prepared. < This is a charade Congress plays every year and voters pay little attention to it.
If Congress doesn’t care enough to meet a budget deadline why should taxpayers get bent our of shape trying to meet the annual April 15th tax deadline?
You should be in PA where there is no state budget which was due on June 30. There is talk that there may be one “soon”.
You’re assuming that Congress is willing to play by the rules that they make for the rest of us.
This is dumb. Don’t Wall Street’s rampaging bulls realize the stock market always goes up on Fed meeting days?
Safety sought on sidelines
Investors seem content to wait out the Federal Reserve’s announcement on monetary policy due at 2:15 Eastern.
The fate of the US economy rests on whatever the string-pushers say.
FOMC
Decision day
There’s virtually no chance that Fed policy makers will move on interest rates, so what they say about the economy will be topmost in investors’ minds.
So CorusBank finally went kaput on Sep 12th, taken over by MB Financial. They decided to shut down all CDs outside of Illinois and that includes my CD, so I spoke to MB just now and the check (principal + interest) is on the way to me. No big loss here as my CD was suppose to expire in Oct anyway.
The question is now what I do with the two recently matured (Corus & Alliant) and another upcoming maturing CDs (WaMU). USD seems to be reaching a technical low based on charts, stock market is foolishly high, short positions risk getting pummeled by the PPT, money market is paying 0.5% and precious metal is being pitched on TV to J6P. I am tempted to short US Treasury bonds but if the stock market falls again the rush to safety will go against that move and the uncertainty of Fed action on buying Treasury bonds is always a risk.
The investing landscape is most confusing and uncertain to say the least.
It great time to buy a house or two, however.
Since virtually all major markets are being forcibly stabilized, there can’t be a lot of movement and there won’t be a lot of profit opportunity. Everyone is competing for what little easy money there is.
But since market support is largely artificial, and without it we’d see some serious deflation, and since such support cannot last forever, even cash under the mattress is not a bad investment. Deflation is effectively being masked, but it’s happening whether it shows up in the numbers or not.
Beyond being reasonably diversified, putting cash at risk at this time is not worth it, imo. Your even considering shorting Treasuries says we think differently.. and that’s fine with me. Buying more CDs is about as risky a move as I could stomach.
Anyway, my guess is you’d have let the CDs roll over if they weren’t interrupted..
>Anyway, my guess is you’d have let the CDs roll over if they weren’t interrupted
No way, the rate is too low now to justify another longer-term CD while the USD is being destroyed.
(Reuters) - A former analyst with Moody’s Corp (NYSE:MCO - News) has accused the credit ratings agency of issuing inflated ratings, and has taken his concerns to U.S. congressional investigators, the Wall Street Journal reported on Wednesday.
In a letter dated July, obtained by the paper, Eric Kolchinsky accused Moody’s Investor Service of issuing a high rating to a complicated debt security in January, in spite of it being aware it was planning to downgrade assets backing the securities.
“Moody’s issued an opinion which was known to be wrong,” Kolchinsky wrote, along with detailing other instances of inflated ratings issuance, according to the paper.
The paper said a Moody’s spokesman declined to comment on the January rating under scrutiny, but had said Kolchinsky refused to cooperate with an investigation into the issues he raised, and was suspended with pay.
Cue the ghost of Marlon Brando: “The horror. The horror!”
“…but had said Kolchinsky refused to cooperate with an investigation into the issues he raised, and was suspended with pay.”
Euphemism of the week, right there.
Now that Autumn has officially arrived, it seems Fall is in the air here in sunny Mesa, AZ.
Swimming pool season is over for me. The water is 79 degrees. It is 0800 in the morning and 78 degrees air temp. 16% relative humidity. The speculative animal in me feels like the stock market and precious metals will take a dive soon. The purpose of the markets in general is to ruin as many people as possible.
My BIL has been a professional landlord for 22 years now. He has 14 rental units here in Mesa, a triplex, two duplex, and 7 SFH. As of yesterday they are all current on rent. The last two SFH he bought were foreclosures for about 75K each. Prior to that he sold one SFH of about the same size in 2005 for 200K. My BIL does 95% of the maintenance on these units himself and they are all within 3 miles of the home he lives in. He started off by buying the triplex 22 years ago. My point is, despite amateur landlords and bank REO, there is a steady income to be had in rentals if worked properly, at least here in Mesa. My BIL was your classic ADD type kid. Always in trouble at school. Did not graduate High School. Now manages his 14 rental units and is cash flow positive on every one. No student loans.
I still think the Fall is coming in many things.
THIS is the secret to his success:
My BIL does 95% of the maintenance on these units himself and they are all within 3 miles of the home he lives in
Yep. That and buying at a price that pencils out CFP right from the git-go.
Wish me luck guys. I am ready for either way though. Going back to my old job, volunteer to work two works for free, and show some humility. Even though I was right, I was also wrong too.
I miss the girls there, and they miss me too. I seriously ask this question: How many 52 year old single guys have two lovely young ladies age 22 and 24 come up and give you back rubs while you are working?
I am Uncle Greg. They love me, I love them, and I miss them.
How many 52 year old single guys have two lovely young ladies age 22 and 24 come up and give you back rubs while you are working?
I’d like to work as a bouncer at a skin joint too!
Bill: This is a law office and I was nervous and scared when I typed that, hoping for some support. I did not mean for it to come out bragging or anything.
P.S. Since I know you care so much now, it looks like I’ll be going back to work soon. Plus, they both jumped into my arms the minute they saw me.
Some people are good, others are evil, ugly, and condescending, especially when they hide behind a computer.
I apologize for that comment Bill. I am just supercharged right now, I want to get back to work.
Nothing to apologize for. Your post wasn’t offensive. I did not mean to be crude in my post - I was being facetious in a funny way and was trying to make light of it.
But seriously, I enjoy those opportunities of working among cute gals.
Thanks Bill, and it is forgotten.
“This is a law office”
Hi , I’m Denny Crane!
Hwy; Fascinating. I had to go to Wiki, cause I never heard of…wait, what, his name, gain?
How many 52 year old single guys have two lovely young ladies age 22 and 24 come up and give you back rubs while you are working?
Probably as many who are clueless about workplace sexual harassment regulations.
But it’s the girls who do it to ATE-UP, not the other way around. When it is a woman doing it to a man, it is perfectly OK.
Thanks coug, and I wasn’t bragging man, I was scared and wanted something to hang my hat on to build confidence. No, Sierra and Ashley aren’t that way, but your point is well taken, and extremely valid.
Ya Bud,
ATE
Hey Bud, how about posting some pics of the twin back rubbing lovelies? That’s the LEAST you could do for your new bud.
coug, if I get back to work, and the girls (My Bosses!) say it is OK, then I will do just that. All three of us!
Girls??????? WHERE?????? Rubbing BACKS??????
Where they at, ATE???
Step, now you stay out of it. You’ll take them away from me.
Thanks coug, and I wasn’t bragging man, I was scared and wanted something to hang my hat on to build confidence.
Are you serious?
You do understand that even if the physical contact is consensual, at any moment Sierra or Ashley could turn around and accuse you of REQUIRING them to give you a back rub in order to keep their job. And then you’re put in a position where you have to defend.
But then you’re an attorney and you already knew this, right?
Hey X, I see your point, but can we let this one go? Yes, you are right, and yes I know what you are saying, and yes, I agree with it.
However, I stll believe in the good of people.
Oh for crying out loud.
I don’t know what’s more pathetic: covertly posting to a blog from your office about two office hotties giving you backrubs, or the stern warnings about the legal ramifications of workplace touching.
Dear HBB forum, I never thought this would happen to me….
Some people are good, others are evil, ugly, and condescending, especially when they hide behind a computer.
yes of course you believe in the good of people except when they are evil, ugly, condescending and hide behind a computer.
Got it.
Hey X, let it go, you win, OK?
Hey Sammy and X I would fight you both with one hand tied behind my back. Obvious non-athletic girlie men. Please let it go. I am sorry I brought it up, OK?
What can I say? I am sorry. Drop it.
It really pisses me me off when I cannot knock someone out, or talk to them face-face.
Please shut up with your ridicule. where does it go? I thought we were all friends here.
I had a weak moment. I am a human being. Give me a break, for Baby Jeebus sake!
Sammy and X: Now that I think about it, I apologize for that statement too. It seems like one of the best lessons I ever learned in life was to search for why I wrong…
Because, I usually is!
“I wrong” = May Pang= John Lennon= Yoko Ono= “Live Peace at Toronto”, Oh well, nevermind=Nirvana=Dead Kennedys’= Dead Ted Kennedy, I am tired. Going to take a nap.
I think we made Oly happy yesterday on her Birthday. It was a good job by all, and I know she was smiling.
Ate-Up,
Best of luck. Listen to your gut instinct. If you feel it’s wrong it’s wrong.
You take good care of yourself.
Thank You SanFranQualityLady.
“When it is a woman doing it to a man, it is perfectly OK.”
Are you really a cougar?
Not in that sense. Cougar was my college’s mascot and I graduated in 1991 thus the handle cougar91. This was way before the term was used to describe an older woman going for younger man.
Here all this time I just thought you were just partial to supercharged Mercurys.
“Not in that sense.”
Shucks — I thought I had picked up on an important hidden meaning in your comment…
Best of luck, ATE-UP — its good to be doing something and its good to be wanted also. It will all work out in the end (that said hopefully), but it will.
Thank You potential, I really appreciate it. I think everyone on here is good. There are just some “agitators” for the fun of it, and, that is OK too!
Got me an interview tomorrow - big search engine company…………….:-). We’ll see.
Good luck potential, I’ll be thinking about ya.
Hey, Uncle Greg - give ‘em heck! Seriously, a steady income is a good thing. I’ve adjusted by lowering my expectations for work satisfaction.
Hey, ATE. I know this one means a lot to you. I’m with you, Buddy. Go get ‘em!
Please ignore all stories about a recession in Europe. They are false and misleading!
(Story from today’s Cyprus Mail)
Paphos bracing for slow winter
By Bejay Browne
MORE than 12,000 tourist beds will be lost over the winter period as more hotels and holiday apartments than ever before shut down for the season in Paphos.
“Around 200 hotel units, including hotel villas and holiday apartments are closing up for winter,” manager of the Paphos regional board of tourism said, which is the largest number of winter season closures ever.
The figure could be even higher, as not all owners and managers inform the tourism board that they will be closing. According to Hadjigeorgiou there will be at least 2,000 fewer beds available than last year.
“The main reason is the economic crisis. There just aren’t the customers to make it viable for the hotels to stay open,” Hadjigeorgiou added
Although a handful of hotels, such as the Pafian Bay and Droushia Heights are closing for renovations, most of them are being forced to shut due to a lack of custom. Hadjigeorgiou said that the feedback from the main tour operators suggest that the coming winter period will be far worse than 2008-2009 winter season.
“The UK market affects us, and this hits Paphos especially hard. We are concerned for the future of tourism here. We are aiming to keep the existing clientele, build on what we have and find alternative markets.”
The secretary general of SEK trade union in Paphos, Neophytos Xenofontos, confirmed that the number of hotels closing during the winter would be more than previous years, but added exact numbers would not be known until October.
General secretary of DEOK trade union, Andreas Deogenous, said that the hotel closures will increase local unemployment by around 5,000 people.
He urged the government to take serious measures to push forward the commencement of projects in the district, to help tackle the rising number of unemployed.
Hadjigeorgiou said he hoped things will start to rebound, particularly if plans to increase tourism from Russia proved tenable. “But we won’t see positive growth in tourism in Paphos before 2011 and afterwards.”
According to Hadjigeorgiou, the Paphos regional board of tourism are aggressively promoting the town and the special offers available at many of the hotels.
“Some of the hotels need to upgrade the product on offer, and there are many things underway which will help to reposition Paphos competitively in the market,” he said. “Of course you can always find things which are cheaper, but I believe in Paphos we are now very competitive.”
For Iraklis Christoforou of Pandream Hotel apartments closing in winter has become an unwelcome annual event. “It’s not profitable for a hotelier to run a hotel business anymore. We will be closing at the end of October and will open again in April 2010,” he said.
“There aren’t the customers in the winter season, and although it’s bad to close and then open and so on, especially as have to re employ and re train staff every year, it’s the only option open to us.”
Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2009
Recession in Europe? Absolutely not monsieur!!!
(Headline story from today’s Cyprus Mail)
Paphos bracing for slow winter
By Bejay Browne
MORE than 12,000 tourist beds will be lost over the winter period as more hotels and holiday apartments than ever before shut down for the season in Paphos.
“Around 200 hotel units, including hotel villas and holiday apartments are closing up for winter,” manager of the Paphos regional board of tourism said, which is the largest number of winter season closures ever.
The figure could be even higher, as not all owners and managers inform the tourism board that they will be closing. According to Hadjigeorgiou there will be at least 2,000 fewer beds available than last year.
“The main reason is the economic crisis. There just aren’t the customers to make it viable for the hotels to stay open,” Hadjigeorgiou added
Although a handful of hotels, such as the Pafian Bay and Droushia Heights are closing for renovations, most of them are being forced to shut due to a lack of custom. Hadjigeorgiou said that the feedback from the main tour operators suggest that the coming winter period will be far worse than 2008-2009 winter season.
“The UK market affects us, and this hits Paphos especially hard. We are concerned for the future of tourism here. We are aiming to keep the existing clientele, build on what we have and find alternative markets.”
The secretary general of SEK trade union in Paphos, Neophytos Xenofontos, confirmed that the number of hotels closing during the winter would be more than previous years, but added exact numbers would not be known until October.
General secretary of DEOK trade union, Andreas Deogenous, said that the hotel closures will increase local unemployment by around 5,000 people.
He urged the government to take serious measures to push forward the commencement of projects in the district, to help tackle the rising number of unemployed.
Hadjigeorgiou said he hoped things will start to rebound, particularly if plans to increase tourism from Russia proved tenable. “But we won’t see positive growth in tourism in Paphos before 2011 and afterwards.”
According to Hadjigeorgiou, the Paphos regional board of tourism are aggressively promoting the town and the special offers available at many of the hotels.
“Some of the hotels need to upgrade the product on offer, and there are many things underway which will help to reposition Paphos competitively in the market,” he said. “Of course you can always find things which are cheaper, but I believe in Paphos we are now very competitive.”
For Iraklis Christoforou of Pandream Hotel apartments closing in winter has become an unwelcome annual event. “It’s not profitable for a hotelier to run a hotel business anymore. We will be closing at the end of October and will open again in April 2010,” he said.
“There aren’t the customers in the winter season, and although it’s bad to close and then open and so on, especially as have to re employ and re train staff every year, it’s the only option open to us.”
Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2009
Austin American Statesman today:
Foreclosure postings spike to highest since 2001
1,481 Central Texas properties are listed for October auction, up 72 percent from last year.
In February, George Roddy Sr., the company’s [Foreclosure Listing Services, Inc] president, said he thought foreclosures had peaked in Central Texas, although at high levels, but noted that future job losses were a big unknown that could change his prediction.
Since then, Austin’s job market has weakened, with unemployment at 7.2 percent last month and the annual job loss rate hitting a six-year high of 0.9 percent.
“Every time we think we’ve hit the plateau, it seems to spike a little bit higher a few months later,” Bonnie Brown, the company’s vice president, said Tuesday.
Brown said the numbers are expected to remain elevated for some time.
The main reason: Through September, loans for homes posted for foreclosure in Central Texas were made, on average, in 2005, she said. Potentially troubled loans made since then, especially in 2006 and 2007, before the housing markets slowed, have yet to reach the foreclosure stage, Brown said.
In addition, various loan-modification programs designed to assist financially stressed homeowners so they can keep their homes are not helping everyone, said Hugh Parrish, a veteran Austin real estate broker at Parrish & Associates.
“Many people have applied for modifications, and some have been successful,” Parrish said. “Many others could not be salvaged” because the homeowners did not have enough income to cover even reduced monthly payments.
Update to last nights auction: 3400 sq ft house, ex pot house confiscated by FBI, now REO. sold for $1.1m in 05. listed at $699k all summer, no takers. Sells at auction for $625 + 5% auction commission. WTF? People are dumb. It is an off the shelf Home Depot house, cheap stuff, vinyl windows… hilarious that someone pd $1.1mill.
Forbes.com
Cheery Outlook For Cheerios
Cereal maker and grocery giant general mills jumps higher on good news.
…first-quarter profit jumped 51%
…fiscal first quarter net income of $420.6 million, or $1.25 per share, up from $278.5 million, or 79 cents per share
General Mills said that higher sales, combined with lower ingredient and fuel costs, were the main factors behind the surge in earnings. The company also benefited from stronger advertising and marketing efforts, and the tendency of consumers to prepare meals at home during the economic recession.
hmm.. I need to add things related to home cooking to my recession proof industries list. Anyone know what corporation owns Spatula City?
“…what corporation owns Spatula City?”
GE, via NBC.
My friend is a civil engineer in LA. He was recently forced to work 4 days per week and take one day of vacation. Over the weekend he informed me that he is now being paid overtime. Once Bernanke announced that the recession is over, his firms clients all called back wanting to complete their projects based on the original timelines. The clients fear they will lose funding if the projects are not on time.
It is one extreme to the other, from mandatory furlough to overtime in the course of a few weeks.
Engineering staff are treated like labor these days particularly in California, which is one of the reasons I decided to leave. Losers on welfare are the worrisome concern of elected officials, not their professionals who keep everything functioning. Preventative maintenance of critical infrastructure gets deferred until disaster strikes, and the official response is always, “Nobody could see this coming.”
Haven’t seen you here before; welcome aboard, SOL in LA.
Hey Olygal,
Somehow I missed the celebration for your day yesterday! I was hanging out on the later threads I guess.
Anyway, I’d be remiss if I didn’t step out and say I hope you had a happy, happy b-day! Cheers.
Oh, and I’ll probably be saluting with Knob Creek. Then I’m off to sample Buffalo Trace and Woodford Reserve (I saw your other post from 2 days ago re: KY grown bourbon…)
Happy, Happy Birthday Oly dear…
Quick shut down the refineries!…We have to keep gasoline at a permanently “high plateau” so that… the efficient “free markets” can use the “invisible hand” to allow the magical phenomena of “Supply & Demand” to deliver the necessary goods to the American citizen, like a cup of coffee @ $2.25!
“…But crude dropped swiftly through the $70 and $69 levels after the Energy Information Administration reported a 2.8-million-barrel rise in crude oil inventories for the week ended Sept. 18. Analysts surveyed by Dow Jones Newswires had expected crude stocks to drop by 1.5 million barrels.”
By David Bird, DOW JONES NEWSWIRE SEPTEMBER 23, 2009:
OIL FUTURES: Crude Drops Below $69/Bbl After US Oil Data
Here’s a quote Mr. Bear would appreciate:
“Overall gasoline weakness is bringing down the house,” said Tony Rosado, a broker at GA Global Markets in New York.
So, because we’re driving less, and buying cars that use less gas, and saving a lot of money, we’re destroying our own economy??!?
GOSH I’d better fire up the old Camaro and burn thru a few dozen tankfuls, STAT!!
To think that he drinks a diet cherry coke with his corn-fed steak…
Daffy: “That’s just desssspiiiiicable!”
“…It’s 12 months later and Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway is $3 billion richer.
“One year ago today, on September 23, 2008, with the financial world still reeling from the collapse of Lehman Brothers just days before, Buffett stunned Wall Street with a massive vote of confidence for Goldman Sachs.”
Buffett’s money, and his endorsement of Goldman, didn’t come cheap.
Goldman agreed to pay Berkshire a 10 percent annual dividend on the preferred stock. That’s $500 million a year, and the payout didn’t depend at all on what happened to Goldman’s common stock price.
Ken Burns Hails Rockefeller, Muir in TV Parks Series:
Interview by Zinta Lundborg, Sept. 23 (Bloomberg)
Burns: “There’s always the complaint that it’s socialism or government run rampant, but nobody minds when a giant air force base gets built, or an interstate highway. In order to save Yosemite and Yellowstone, they had to say this was worthless land.”
Burns: “It was first proposed that the Grand Canyon become a national park in 1882. After 37 years, Theodore Roosevelt had to use the Antiquities Act, designed to save monuments, and the hue and cry that went up in Arizona belies the fact that it’s now on their license plate.”
market pulse
Sept. 23, 2009, 2:55 p.m. EDT
Fed to buy fewer MBS beginning this week
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The Federal Reserve will gradually reduce its purchases of mortgage-backed securities and agency bonds beginning this week, the New York Fed said Wednesday. The Federal Open Market Commmittee announced earlier that it would slow its purchases and extend its program to buy nearly $1.5 trillion in mortgage-related debt through the first quarter of 2010. The New York Fed said it would gradually reduce both the size and frequency of its purchases. By the first quarter, the New York Fed would buy agency debt only every other week.
The Fed better get on with their liquidity dumping operation, lest the market close down on FOMC meeting day.
Damn lucky for the bulls that the Fed’s meeting announcement was deemed “optimistic.” Imagine the carnage which would have erupted had the announcement been of the nature, “This sucker’s going down” or something similar.
I’m not sure what the Fed said that would have affected markets, anyway. Was it something like, “We plan to keep interest rates at zero percent forever”?
Bears stamp out Fed gains
Market’s euphoria evaporates despite the central bank issuing what traders call an optimistic statement.
Funny how stock market irrationality is tolerated in one direction, but not in the other.
Also funny how the bears always take the blame when the market drops. Don’t the bulls have to sit on their hands to make the market drop? I don’t imagine many bears find the current market conditions very conducive to even participating.
Hey Everyone, I’ve been gone for quite a while - unemployed and working hard to establish as a freelancer (and doing well, yay!), haven’t had time to read here.
I’m back because this is probably the best place to tell this anecdote, interested in your opinions:
I was just going through my statements on a “Cash Reserve” account I’ve been holding for almost 10 years at a well-known major financial firm. It’s basically a money-market type account that a self-employed type person can use like a savings account, to earn some interest and keep some cash stashed as a reserve to deal with uneven income flow.
Over the past 6 months, the interest rate on this account has been slashed by something like 90%. It wasn’t very high to begin with, in line with most “online savings” accounts at something around 1%, but now it is literally showing at .000092%. I’ve earned about $0.60 cents on over $6,500 cash balance.
As you can imagine, I called the firm to ask what was up. The CSR that I talked to seemed like he’s knowledgeable in the HBB sense, and told me (not in so many words) that the company’s policy had been deliberately changed to completely destroy the interest-generating properties of accounts like this one, in order to get people to take money out of them and go spend it to “help revitalize the economy.” He hinted that pretty much every financial company is doing the same thing, and looking around at a random sampling of bank interest rates out there, I think he’s right.
He even said, “It seems like people are being punished for saving money rather than spending it.”
So, how about that? A financial-industry-wide *real* War on Savers.
I saw that on most of the savings account interest rate charts, there are now many many divisions of amounts in the account where the interest rate changes. Mostly it looks like $0-4999 has ridiculously low rates, $5000-$9,999 has not quite so ridiculously low, and then on up from there. What I would call a “decent” interest rate (given the circumstances) doesn’t seem to happen until you’re over $25,000, sometimes $50K or $100K.
So hey, if you’re already rich, you’re fine!
Anyone else notice this stuff?
What I would call a “decent” interest rate (given the circumstances) doesn’t seem to happen until you’re over $25,000, sometimes $50K or $100K.
no its still crappy why should banks give any kind of interest at all when they can borrow for free from the FED.
“in order to get people to take money out of them and go spend it to “help revitalize the economy.”
or sell dollars and buy something else that pays a bit more ?
I use to have a interest rate checking account but traded it for a regular one with lower miniums the interest was a joke and annoying to add in the few pennies every month to balance.
I seriously doubt the PTB want people to be buying something other than dollars! Aren’t we still depending on foreign countries buying our debt to keep the dollar from collapsing??
I agree about the interest rates being crappy, tho.
Looks like ING still has the best no-minimum rate for the moment, a dismal 1.3%, but that beats the heck out of 0.5% or less in other places.
Anyone know things about ING that I should know?
Well thank god it wasn’t the government telling you how to handle your money.
Banks play games all the time with your money. On you. Stacking. Overdraft fees. Transfer fees. Fees on fees. And now we find out they’re gaming the savings interest rates.
Nice, eh? But customer oriented regulation would just be more dang government interference, wouldn’t it? Hell! It would be more socialeesm!
The Fed likes to think of interest rates as a “fundamental” determinant of housing prices. To my thinking, “fundamentals” are exogenous — i.e., not controlled by central banks. Am I off base here?
Currencies
Sept. 23, 2009, 3:36 p.m. EDT · Recommend · Post:
Dollar slumps as Fed extends mortgage purchases
By Deborah Levine & Polya Lesova, MarketWatch
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — The dollar fell to fresh lows for the year on Wednesday, reversing earlier gains, after the Federal Reserve left interest rates unchanged near zero, as expected, while it extended programs to provide liquidity to the housing market.
“Bottom line, the Fed is still a long ways from executing an exit strategy,” said Sal Guatieri, senior economist at BMO Capital Markets, in a note, referring to the eventual end of the central bank extensive measures to support a U.S. economic recovery.
The dollar index (DXY 76.08, -0.04, -0.05%) , which measures the U.S. unit against a basket of six major currencies, stood at 75.952, compared with 76.177 ahead of the announcement, and compared with 76.070 in late New York trading on Tuesday — near its annual low of 76.
In a statement after its widely expected decision on rates, the central bank said that economic activity has “picked up” and noted improved conditions in financial markets.
It also extended through March the timeframe for its $1.25-trillion program to buy mortgage-backed securities and its $200 billion program to buy agency debt. The programs, aimed at keeping rates low to support the U.S. housing market, were originally set to expire in December.
“There were a few concerns ahead of the announcement that the Fed might cut short this program,” BMO’s Guatieri said.
…
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Stocks fell on Wednesday as investors worried the Federal Reserve might be closer to reducing vast efforts that have shored up the economy and supported big gains in asset markets.
According to the latest figures, the Dow Jones industrial average (DJI:^DJI - News) fell 80.79 points, or 0.82 percent, to 9,749.08. The Standard & Poor’s 500 Index (^SPX - News) lost 10.77 points, or 1.00 percent, to 1,060.89. The Nasdaq Composite Index (Nasdaq:^IXIC - News) gave up 14.88 points, or 0.69 percent, at 2,131.42.
but no we need INFLATION what about my debt ??? I can’t pay back my debt with Deflation or even slow growth I need ripping asset inflation, bernake turn the machines back on !!
NEW YORK (AP) — The dollar hit a fresh 12-month low, then bounced back a bit in later trading as the Federal Reserve left interest rates at a range near zero, saying it will keep them there for a long time amid gradual improvements in the economy, and did not announce any new liquidity measures.
Keeping interest rates this low can drag on the dollar as investors transfer funds to currencies in countries with high interest rates, including many developing economies, where they can earn higher returns.
Is this my INFLATION ?? imported goods will cost more like gasoline ?? How can I pay back my debt unless I get more income !! will my income go up as the dollar goes down or will it just be another tax to pay for the RE bailout ?? Does a lower currency help did it help Iceland ??
Is this my INFLATION ?? imported goods will cost more like gasoline ?? How can I pay back my debt unless I get more income !! will my income go up as the dollar goes down or will it just be another tax to pay for the RE bailout ?? Does a lower currency help did it help Iceland ??
Now now junior don’t get all upset. Uncle Ben will take care of the details. You just rest your head and dream about candy crapping unicorns.
I just thought your last paragraph sounded like a guy waking up from a bad dream. Then BB slowly putting the person back to sleep with a piece of cloth soaked with chloroform.
Does “retail demand” in this case include purchases by the Fed and its minions?
Sept. 23, 2009, 5:40 p.m. EDT
California sells $8.8 bln in notes to record retail demand
By Laura Mandaro & Deborah Levine, MarketWatch
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — The state of California completed an $8.8 billion sale of short-term debt on Wednesday with yields far below earlier expectations, though rates still proved higher than those on some comparable debt.
Aided by a record $6.64 billion in orders from retail investors, which amounted to 75.4% of the total, California sold the revenue anticipation notes at yields of 1.25% to 1.5%. They mature in May and June of next year.
Ahead of the sale, some analysts had anticipated the notes would yield more than 3%.
The state entered into the RAN sale, the largest of its kind, to meet its cash-flow needs throughout its fiscal 2009-2010 year.
Total orders exceeded the amount of notes on sale by $430 million. The retail purchase was the largest retail total ever attained in a municipal bond or note deal, Treasurer Bill Lockyer’s office said.
“We have a lot of work to do to fix our structural budget defects. But in the short term, this successful sale will help restore the state’s fiscal equilibrium,” said Lockyer in a statement.
…
Geithner addresses ‘too big to fail’ problem
By Tom Braithwaite in Washington
Published: September 23 2009 16:49 | Last updated: September 23 2009 17:55
Tim Geithner, US Treasury secretary, and Barney Frank, chairman of the House financial services committee, on Wednesday insisted that large institutions would not gain an implicit government subsidy.
The Treasury’s desire to prevent large failing financial companies such as Lehman Brothers and AIG from threatening the entire system has sparked fears that large companies will benefit from lower borrowing costs because they are implicitly protected by the government.
But Mr Geithner said there would be no public list of so-called “too big to fail” companies but they would be constrained by close supervision from the Federal Reserve and tough capital requirements.
“It is very important that these institutions that matter, whose future could threaten the economy as a whole, are subject to higher constraints on leverage in the future, more conservative cushions of capital and liquidity, so that they can absorb losses they face when they make big mistakes,” said Mr Geithner.
“So what we’re trying to do is to make it clear that, if you have this particular source of threat to the system, we’re going to hold you and subject you to more conservative constraints on risk-taking.”
Mr Frank said regulators would ensure that a failing large interconnected company would be unwound in a way that would protect taxpayers. “There will be death panels enacted by this Congress” – in a reference to the healthcare debate - “but they will be for non-bank financial institutions that will not be considered too big to die.”
…
But Mr Geithner said there would be no public list of so-called “too big to fail” companies but they would be constrained by close supervision from the Federal Reserve and tough capital requirements.
Oh yet another promise that a private unauditable group of banks will do a great job policing itself. It’s Wallstreet policing Wallstreet in my book.
Thirty Years Ago Today -
The Dow Jones Industrial Average was comprised of these thirty companies in September 1979:
Allied Chemical
Aluminum Company of America
American Can
American Tel. & Tel.
American Tobacco B
Bethlehem Steel
Du Pont
Eastman Kodak Company
Exxon Corporation
General Electric Company
General Foods
General Motors Corporation
Goodyear
Inco
International Business Machines
International Harvester
International Paper Company
Johns-Manville
Merck & Company, Inc.
Minnesota Mining & Mfg
Owens-Illinois Glass
Procter & Gamble Company
Sears Roebuck & Company
Standard Oil of California
Texaco Incorporated
Union Carbide
United Technologies Corporation
U.S. Steel
Westinghouse Electric
Woolworth
I was reviewing wikipedias page on the FED and found this paragraph
Preventing asset bubbles
The board of directors of each Federal Reserve Bank District also have regulatory and supervisory responsibilities. For example, a member bank (private bank) is not permitted to give out too many loans to people who cannot pay them back. This is because too many defaults on loans will lead to a bank run. If the board of directors has judged that a member bank is performing or behaving poorly, it will report this to the Board of Governors. This policy is described in United States Code:[44]
Each Federal reserve bank shall keep itself informed of the general character and amount of the loans and investments of its member banks with a view to ascertaining whether undue use is being made of bank credit for the speculative carrying of or trading in securities, real estate, or commodities, or for any other purpose inconsistent with the maintenance of sound credit conditions; and, in determining whether to grant or refuse advances, rediscounts, or other credit accommodations, the Federal reserve bank shall give consideration to such information. The chairman of the Federal reserve bank shall report to the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System any such undue use of bank credit by any member bank, together with his recommendation. Whenever, in the judgment of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, any member bank is making such undue use of bank credit, the Board may, in its discretion, after reasonable notice and an opportunity for a hearing, suspend such bank from the use of the credit facilities of the Federal Reserve System and may terminate such suspension or may renew it from time to time.
The punishment for making false statements or reports which overvalue an asset is also stated in the U.S. Code:[45]
Whoever knowingly makes any false statement or report, or willfully overvalues any land, property or security, for the purpose of influencing in any way…shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
I was initially thinking man we should be sending some people to jail, but then I noticed the clever wording “not more than 30 years” and I have to admit that sending no one to jail for any years is < 30 years.
Sept. 24 (Bloomberg) — Japan’s exports fell in August as the economic recovery struggled to gain traction.
Shipments abroad dropped 36 percent from a year earlier, less than a 36.5 percent decline in July, the Finance Ministry said today in Tokyo.
From a month earlier, exports fell 0.7 percent, the second straight drop, indicating the boost in demand from abroad that helped the economy expand in the second quarter may be fading. Some $2 trillion in spending by governments worldwide has boosted sales for companies from Toyota Motor Corp. to Sharp Corp., while material makers are filling orders from manufacturers rebuilding stockpiles.
“So much of what’s keeping Japan’s economy going is temporary: the inventory, the stimulus measures,” said Junko Nishioka,
We need more ferilizer and green paint in aisle 3