The Housing Bubble

LOL

Hah, as for flying banksters, this video has been floating around. Can’t remember if I saw it here or maybe on patrick.net.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yge311sFhC8

I have no reason to fear a plunge in my net worth- I’m not making a run at Warren Buffett anytime soon- but if I did, playing the currency game would frighten the heck out of me. I could see going all in on something else, only to see some huge dollar rally wipe me out. I think I need to learn a little more about currency trading.

Yes, my fear, too. And if I bought gold the same would happen, or it would be gold-plated bronze.

I have been developing a pet theory, though. The signs and hints are out there that the greenback is going to get knocked off its pedestal in the not-too-distant future. You hear it from too many sources (the Russians, the Chinese, the Euro crowd, etc.) now to just ignore.

What if? And where do they go? I’m thinking that our pals the Chinese and the Russians are eager to dump us and tilt the balance of power (once China buys up all it reasonably can in the U.S.), and the Europeans will go along because they wouldn’t mind a return to glory, and they’re sick of the U.S.-UK money boys pushing them around.

But what currency has the potential status and cultural stamp of authority, if not the dollar or the pound?

Can’t be the yen, or the yuan/renminbi, or ruble. Rest of the world would never go for it. Can’t be some nameless “basket.” Too flaky and diffuse, no sense of order there.

But if you’ve read Dostoevsky (and I’m sure there must be other examples), you know how the Russians have long looked up to Europe and particularly the French. They respect their culture and have always felt left out. Let’s say they get behind the euro … would China not jump right in behind, as they so often have? Bet the house on the euro?

But what currency has the potential status and cultural stamp of authority, if not the dollar or the pound?

IMF SDR’s.

They’re not there yet, but gaining. IMO they will be the ultimate victor. We are on that path.

Currently these are comprised of 4 different currencies, including 44% US $. However that mix expires next year, and China is asking for the next mix to include Yuan as a 5th currency, and for the mix to be evened out at 20% each. I doubt they’ll get that, but it’ll be closer to it than the current mix.

Not sure one could stuff a wad of IMF SDR’s in one’s pocket, but I can see the point. There won’t be, like, a pale blue helmet on them, will there, lol?

Where do you think we end up if dollar is at 20% in the mix?

But what currency has the potential status and cultural stamp of authority, if not the dollar or the pound?

I’m guessing the Yen will be a short-term replacement. The new government is already talking about a “strong yen” policy to try and spur consumption and they are a nation of savers, i.e. they have money to spend on consumption.

Not sure one could stuff a wad of IMF SDR’s in one’s pocket

Physical paper bills are about 0.000001% of international trade.

(Legal trade, at least)

IMF currency could end up being an interesting test case, in being the first currency that has no paper representative; instead being only used electronically. Just conjecturing though, based on trends.

For as I remember I bet on euro. I don’t understand that talk about IMF SDR. When they dump the dollar it will be hell of a dumping, they will dump the IMF with its SDR and the World Banks with its biased prediction (not to say destructive for the rest of he world) how the financial crises will be worst in the least suspecting sideline viewers – Chinese , Russians and Indians an east europians.

Okay, HBBers, what’s a girl to do? I have a modest amount of cash from an old IRA I had to rollover, and I’ve been basically in limbo, and just have it parked in a no-lo interest savings account with Schwab until I decide what to do. ANy suggestions? Everything seems so topsy-turvy. I really thought the stock market would go below 7,000 this year and yet it keeps reanimating like a zombie, since none of the bad financial news has shot it in the head…..

ZOMBIE market.
Good luck salad. I am still not back in with 401k from CU to actual funds. I am expecting a October surprise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_banking_system

FWIW - it appears my snarky remark was actually somewhat opposite of the truth. From looking at that Wikipedia link, it appears the PTB are more intertwined with the SBS, rather than competing with it.

Whatever the wiki definition is, the problem the FDIC chief is worried about is the process by which loans are made by people who are not subject to any regulation and who do not hold on to the risk related to the loans that they make for any length of time. She is right to warn us about it. In that system, there is no incentive to make sustainable loans. No incentive to make sure than anyone can pay the money back. No reason to worry about what happens to the people whose capital is used to make the loans.

When I was young lawyer, the partner who took lead on securitization transactions refused to sign off on any deal where the creators of the bonds did not hold on to at least the worst 10% of the mess as an equity tranche. I sat through their whining on innumerable conference calls.

I sincerely doubt the firm (despite our lofty status and superior reputation) would have kept the business if other reputable places would have given opinion letters on much looser terms. What I really want to know is, what happened to that requirement? I think I know one factor (check-the-box regulations on corporation vs. partnership status for purposes of taxation), but it isn’t likely it was the only one. What else happened?

“What else happened?”

Greed happened. On a scale we’ve never seen before.

“In that system, there is no incentive to make sustainable loans.”

What if loaning money that was unlikely to never be repaid was certain to result in a loss, instead of potentially resulting in a bailout of some sort? Would that be an incentive to avoid making unsustainable loans?

Depends on who the maker of the loan thinks will be taking that loss. Even if it’s them, it may also depend on the time lag between the bonus/paycheck and the loss. People screw themselves next Tuesday for a hamburger today all the time. If somebody else is going to take the loss, so much the better.

Prof Bear,

Only matters if you care about your reputation going forward. And if you think people will be able to connect the name of your old firm that screwed them to the name of your new firm that hopes to screw them.

At some level, the amount of money that they are making is so huge, it doesn’t matter if you get caught and can’t do it again. Now, if you want to talk about no bailouts and serious clawbacks of all remuneration paid to everyone (whether they were in charge or not) involved going back two decades or more, then maybe we are talking….

When Corporations can go Bk after the short term greed hounds take their money and run , after they pump up their stock ,it’s a system that needs the highest policing and regulations ,not to mention controls on leverage requirements .

At some level, the amount of money that they are making is so huge, it doesn’t matter if you get caught and can’t do it again. Now, if you want to talk about no bailouts and serious clawbacks of all remuneration paid to everyone (whether they were in charge or not) involved going back two decades or more, then maybe we are talking….
————————

I like your thinking, polly…and yours, too, Wiz.

The check This out..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_spider

The name derives from Latin, and means those that flee from the sun.

the latter two relating to the belief they use their formidable jaws to clip hair from humans and animals to line their subterranean nests

Nice, eh?

We have to put things up on beds or on closets or desks to make sure things dont crawl into boots or sleeping bags…

Other stories include tales of them leaping into the air, disemboweling camels, screaming, and running alongside moving humvees;

Stories my ASS, I just had to comment on this from the article…

I have personally seen G.I. Joe jump what had to be a full foot into the air. I have seen them running beside MRAP’s and Hummvee’s as they pass on a road. Eating camels or screaming is another story, but the other’s I can personally vouch for…

And I dont doubt they can scream…

Step:

I read it and saw it re picture.

They look like a Machine From Hell.

Cool.

Thanks Step!

OMG ! I just googled for the pictures, and had to shut it down immediately…..shuddering.

Yeow! I looked the Wickipedia link up. Twice the size of your hand!

I was scared once by a golden-colored spider in the Mojave Desert many years ago in my 20s. I was in my living room lit only by the boob tube and I was sitting on the carpet. Somehow I saw the outline of that spider coming at me. Wasn’t one that Stpn2me sees over on the other side of the world. this was about one and a half times the size of an American Eagle gold coin. Was pretty fast too.

The scarier part is that I could not find it again that night. It probably crawled into the sofa.

OMG ! I just googled for the pictures, and had to shut it down immediately…..shuddering.

Everyone in the room with me laughed like hell at what you said Silver!

I know this comment is coming in late, but if you guys think giant spiders are scary, check out this. It’s called a “potato bug”. Freaking disgusting.

http://www.potatobugs.com/

Bill in LA When I was living in a really crappy apartment once, I wondered why the VCR was fast forwarding. Closer inspection revealed that there were roaches inside of it crawling in front of the LED display.

So today we’re talking camel spiders, potato bugs and roaches. Step up from RE agents?

In the past, I bought my kids Potato bug lunchboxes and shirts from that website. I haven’t seen a potato bug for several years now. Then hide in usually.

fecaltime!

“I know this comment is coming in late, but if you guys think giant spiders are scary, check out this. It’s called a “potato bug”. Freaking disgusting.”

We have those where I lived in Orange County growing up and here in East County SD too. They’re totally harmless, just very scary to look at. Still, it’s just about all I can do to scoop them up in a cup and take them outside. Scorpions and tarantulas bother me far less.

Funny thing is, most people think “potato bugs” are what I would call roly-polies and give me funny looks when I say I’m afraid of them. Rolies I can pick up barehanded, never a potato bug. But I did keep one overnight once and gave him a chunk of raw potato. By morning he had eaten about half of it and I let him go on the hillside above my house.

A good picture of camel spiders is here:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/bugs/camelspider.asp

Just be aware the camera angle makes them look a lot bigger than they are.

When we were kids living in South San Francisco, we would hike up the hillside in our back yard (the other side says South San Francisco The Industrial City) and dig underground forts. Found a lot of potato bugs. Mom calls them Jerusalem cricket.

Fun fact from the potato bug web site:

The common Potato Bug is also known as the Jerusalem cricket. Our Native American friends call him “Woh-tzi-Neh” (Old Bald-Headed Man). In Latin America, he’s “niña de la tierra” (child of the earth). Other names include: Satan’s fetus, the Devil’s spawn, the Devil’s child, the Devil’s baby, the Devil’s fetus, evil fetus, bald devil fetus, bald fetus of Satan, and earth fetus.

You are just super full of good ideas, there, 8!

All spiders, BUT the black widow and her eggs, get released to propagate, but the widow. I am the widow squisher and egg squisher.

Step:

And they are taught being ghetto is cool…..so its a combination of school systems not aiming high and the flood of media to be cool, equals lazy

—————–
Kids today are just too lazy

+10000000

Please note my qualification of the word qualified.

Math is the key. These kids can’t do it, think it’s impossible to learn, therefore they “don’t like” it. They won’t get far without it.

Hey, only certain kinds of people can do serious math! I think it truly is impossible to understand for the majority of the population, including yours truly.

That’s why we have a tech class, but the rest of us have no idea what they’re really doing. So the only test is the loyalty test. Under Prez Shrub, I think that test expanded to all branches of expertise!

There is no shortage of “math related disciplines”. This canard is being told to justify bringing in more H1-B workers, while American engineers remain unemployed.

Well, I have a life science degree (don’t know if that’s considered “math-related”), and am acquainted with a passle of engineers and physical scientists, and I can tell you that salaries have gone into the shitter for those disciplines. Unemployment is ridiculously high amongst highly educated chemists, physicists, etc. The only way you can get a job is to be a Chinese H1-B visa holder. One guy I know lost his job to a Chinese citizen who was willing to do all the work for his PhD, but then just not write the thesis. The reason for not writing the thesis was that the company could pay him 25% less because he only had a Masters, even though he did the work for the PhD.

No one wants to get a hard science degree because everyone knows that the government will just sell them out if they do.

“And they are taught being ghetto is cool…..so its a combination of school systems not aiming high and the flood of media to be cool, equals lazy”

If THAT is not hitting the nail on the head, I do not know what is.

High school was a bit over a decade ago for me, but I’d like to comment on this. There are two problems. The first is the previously mentioned ghetto mindset, which says “don’t try to be successful in mainstream America, you’ll be excluded, make money by being a criminal.” This appeals to kids because on the surface it appears true, it’s certainly easier, and it appeals to a certain youthful rebelliousness about sticking it to the people that you perceive (at the time) to be responsible for your lot in life. This problem is cultural, and can only be solved by individual communities.

But there is another problem: the way math is taught. Math is almost always taught as a bunch of formulas to memorize outside of any real world context. This poorly serves the vast majority of students, who are only interested in math as a tool to be applied to practical problems. They see most of the content as being irrelevant to anything they could possibly care about, and they are correct.

This also poorly serves students who would actually be interested in math for its own sake, however, because what gets budding mathematicians hooked is seeing a puzzle and solving it. Having a bunch of stupid formulas regurgitated on a board is also irrelevant to them. They don’t care about the results, what they’re interested in is how you got there.

So, mathematics education fails both groups. If you’re interested in the topic, this article explains it much better than I have (warning, lengthy and a PDF):

www .maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf

Don’t like much PDF so I did not read it, but good point jfp

www .maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf

jfp. you are so correct on both counts.

I want to know ‘how I got there, and apply it to things for me’.
See
Hear
Read
Write
Touch
Smell

Repeat.

passle of engineers and physical scientists, and I can tell you that salaries have gone into the shitter for those disciplines.

I have friends that work at HP (former EDS employees). They are having their pay cut for the second time. Paycuts range up to 30%.

Kids are not stupid. They see how the math/science/engineering graduates are treated by industry.

Kids are not stupid. They see how the math/science/engineering graduates are treated by industry.

Our society seems to most highly value entertainers and financiers that innovate new forms of fraud. These are the people that kids see as successful and will attempt to emulate. I remember reading about how the author of Liar’s Poker was somewhat horrified when he heard that kids were inspired to work on wall street by his book.

“Kids are not stupid. They see how the math/science/engineering graduates are treated by industry.”

+100 skip.

jfp,

You are absolutely correct in your post regarding math instruction.

Former teacher here, and former struggling math student, too…

———————-

Also agree about the myth of the “mathematician shortage.” I’ve known plenty of scientists at the PhD level, and they are NOT paid anywhere near what very average and uneducated people were making as realtors, mortgage brokers, entertainers, etc., etc.

On top of all this, China and India are flooding the labor market with math/engineering graduates. I fail to see how forcing more of our kids into these same majors will benefit us (as a society, and the students as individuals) in the least bit.

What makes the U.S. strong is its ability to be flexible and nimble as economic forces change. A diverse workforce enables us to move to where the opportunities are in a much more efficient fashoin.

fashion

grasp of the building codes needed to design energy-efficient buildings ??

And there-in the problem…I live in a older area that was originally settled by the mission Padre’s…While all of the adobe buildings are gone the late 1800’s and turn of the century homes are not only doing quite well thank you they are some of the most expensive homes in our city…Building codes, just like ordinances, civil code and the criminal laws are self serving…It isn’t about health & safety, and has not been for a long time…Its about money & public sector jobs…

Poway has an adobe house that is still functioning quite well.
And friends parents house is adobe and over 60 yrs old and doing quite well.
Adobe. No need for chinese drywall.

And friends parents house is adobe and over 60 yrs old ??

The Mission Padre’s settled California in the late 1700’s I believe…I don’t think they could withstand 200 + years without massive intervention…

That’s true. Already by the mid 1800s most of the missions in California basically melted away from the elements and sat in ruins until there was renewed interest in preserving them. There’s a series of paintings done in the late 1880s that show their condition at the time. And even with restoration they are at risk. There’s a mission just north of San Luis Obispo that took a huge hit from a recent earthquake and the entire wall of the cathedral is being propped up with boards.

“…my guess is they just want the high salary but have no passion or interest in the actual subjects.”

I think that’s a recipe for a miserable life. Of course, one could always change professions, but my point is that it is of utmost importance to be passionate about what you do- especially when you’re paying good money for the opportunity.

DD
I am taking it at a local university, but you can take it at a jc, or a *law school (*if they will let you).

I had Philosophy in gen ed too, but this class is based on Reasoning you take the first year of law school. It’s a different flavor. The Professor is an Attorney.

Well, that’s the catch 22 isnt it? In those area’s, $25-$50 an hour buys alot….

not where the engineering jobs are..$165k “house” is a condo or rowhouse with no yard. Just sayin.

I’m of the opinion that a five year moratorium be put on H-1B (and similar) Visas.

Or, making all applications subject to the approval of the US Representative where the job is based, and make the approval process part of the public record.

I find it difficult to believe that in a country of 300 million people, there is NO ONE qualified to fill these positions

Unless the “No one qualified” has the addendum “that will work at a Third World payscale” attached to it.

I find it difficult to believe that in a country of 300 million people, there is NO ONE qualified to fill these positions

I once read one of those Visa (!) Card “Priceless” parodies of H1-Bs. I won’t pretend like I’m going to repeat it verbatim, but it went something like this:

Wording an ad for a software engineering position with all the newest technologies that no one person could possibly be qualified in - $150.

Using said ad to show compliance with federal guidelines in order to justify an H1-B quota - $250

Getting an Engineering student from India to work for $56k/year - Priceless!

Bingo, Fixer. They either want someone who will work for peanuts, or someone who has basically already done the exact same job before. I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who have the basic qualifications they need and have dealt with building codes before. They just haven’t yet memorized those exact building codes and they don’t want to deal with someone who will take a few months to be at speed. Now perhaps they are dealing with very atypical building codes, like the ones you would find in an earthquake zone, but that is what training is for. It is cheaper for management to demand the current people work 80 hours a week than it is to hire people who are close to what they need and provide training. They can demand a non-compete clause to protect their “investment” if they like, they just don’t want to spend the money.

Businesses have to learn that remaining a slave to quarterly results is self-defeating over the long term. Fix the damn bonus structures and they might just figure it out.

47% of people pay no federal income tax. Nada, zip, zilch. Which means 47% of voters will always vote to raise the taxes of others. (amazingly enough Obama’s approval rating is around 47%-50%…hmmmm).

So to answer your question, yes we will eventually tax the private sector into oblivion.

But that’s OK. Because as I have been told over and over by such well respected economists as Micheal Moore and Keith Olbermann, government always knows best and can run the economy just fine.

Yeah…Bush & Cheney really showed us the way didn’t they Eddie…You neo-cons are all alike…Never take “any” responsibility for your own actions….

Public sector can’t outsource to Bangalore … yet.

Do libs have anything other than “yeah but Bush did______” when discussing an issue? It’s getting so old and tired. Bush was even somehow blamed for the colossal failure of King Obama to bring the Olympics to the Chicago machine.

I think the CA EDD has been outsourcing their call center.

Inywayz, it’s not the President’s job to “bring” the Olympics to the United States, for crying out loud. Chicago made a bid, some other cities made a bid, and Rio got the position. Good for them. WHO CARES?

Really, really, we get the Olympics, FWIW, every decade or so, it seems. But South America, never! Let’s see, vacation plans … um, Rio on the left hand, Chicago on the right. Gotta think this over! I think this is overblown as some great defeat for Obama. Can’t see why he wasted his time, though.

That true? Wow. Like they say in NYC, “Dere oughta be a lore!”

Indian Outsourcers Eye Contracts from U.S. States

Infosys, Wipro and HCL hope to win some of $2 billion in outsourcing contracts from ten American states

By Jessica Mehroin Irani and Pankaj Mishra

Infosys Technologies, Wipro and HCL Technologies are among the software service providers that are laying foundation for the next round of multi-million dollar orders from the big US corporations, by pitching for low-value, but politically important US state governments’ orders.

Infosys, which counts JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley as clients for its services, bids for Arizona Public Service’s (APS) 400 positions, who work in its information-services department, and another 400 or so contractors to raise the staff strength for undisclosed amount.

Nine other US states, some from where politicians opposed offshoring work, are looking to outsource their healthcare operations worth over $2 billion, said Wipro chief strategy officer KR Lakshminarayana, and the company hopes to get a slice of these.

“The discussions are not about offshore outsourcing, but more about working with newer outsourcing vendors, who can deliver locally and keep the jobs here at lower rates,” said a senior executive at one of the Bangalore-based tech firms exploring this opportunity. Many US states such as Missouri, Virginia and Arizona, which are battling falling revenues amid the worst economic slump in their country since the 1930s, are attempting to reduce costs and at the same time want to increase employment opportunities for their citizens. So, they are including clauses such as recruitment of minimum number of staff from their states.

Indian companies, which were used to contracts of hundreds of million-dollars at one go, are bidding for these low-value orders since their traditional clients are cutting down on technology spending and at the same time provides visibility, which would be helpful in getting big orders when tech spending recovers.

“The marketing muscle that comes from such contracts is huge and working with the US state governments send out a signal of importance to other customers,” said Siddharth Pai, managing director of outsourcing advisory firm TPI’s India unit. “For the Indian IT companies this is not a core business, but it creates a halo effect,” he added.

While the global government IT outsourcing market is estimated to be around $100 billion, experts tracking the sector said the US state governments could outsource projects worth up to $5-6 billion this year. States, which in the past opposed the outsourcing of work to Indian companies by the likes of Microsoft and Citigroup, are now turning to the same Indian companies, as their mission now is in line with that of the companies cut costs.

Whew, I’m relieved now. I just misunderstood the meaning of “outsourcing.” It really means “outsourcing,” not “outsourcing.”

“The discussions are not about offshore outsourcing, but more about working with newer outsourcing vendors, who can deliver locally and keep the jobs here at lower rates,” said a senior executive at one of the Bangalore-based tech firms exploring this opportunity.

“The discussions are not about offshore outsourcing, but more about working with newer outsourcing vendors, who can deliver locally and keep the jobs here at lower rates…”

= working around PS unions.

eddie, the reason is, eddie, neocons can’t seem to quit lying,cheating,stealing and telling the world how good they are with saying NO.Do libs have anything other than “yeah but

Dude, you own the entire show now. And yet 9 month into it your 1st instinct is to blame the last guy. Grow up.

Grow up.

You first.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_41/b4150034738024.htm

How the System Works

American corporations may be unknowingly doing business with tech services companies that underpay and otherwise mistreat workers. One example of alleged wrongdoing:
THE WORKER

Indian software programmer Prasad Nair moved to the U.S. in 2008 on a work visa. He claims he was offered a job in Michigan at a salary of $60,000, plus medical insurance and travel expenses.

THE SPONSOR
United Business Technologies in Troy, Mich., sponsored Nair’s visa, but, he claims, forced him to sign a new contract requiring him to pay visa and travel costs. UBT denies any wrongdoing.

THE STAFFING AGENCY
UBT sent Nair to a tech services outfit, Larsen & Toubro Infotech, to find him a job. Larsen & Toubro, which is not accused of any wrongdoing, declined to comment for this story.

THE CLIENT
Larsen & Toubro placed Nair in a job in the San Diego offices of tech giant Qualcomm. He claims UBT, his official employer, paid him less than the prevailing wage. UBT has countersued Nair for failure to give proper notice when he quit and for defamation. Qualcomm and Larsen & Toubro are not accused of any wrongdoing.

Geotechnical engineers are responsible for the engineering of soils and related earth items. Geotechnical reports which describe the bearing capacity of the earth at the project location, the lateral pressures against buired structures, suggested foundation types, soil elasticity, and relevant seismic criteria are fed to the structural engineer.

Not a field the typical history major can jump into. At all.

Geotechnical engineers are responsible for the engineering of soils and related earth items. Geotechnical reports which describe the bearing capacity of the earth at the project location, the lateral pressures against buired structures, suggested foundation types, soil elasticity ???

And that will be about five grand for your lttle 1600 square foot house thank you….Oh, and by the way, I need to be “On-Site” to inspect the footings for proper depth and integrity and verify that the concrete mix conforms to the structural engineers requirements while you pour the foundation…

and relevant seismic criteria are fed to the structural engineer ??

And now off to the structural engineer….That will be another three grand thank you that is only assuming that the city engineer who is doing the plan check does not come back with requirements that are beyond the scope of my quote…In that case, I will bill for my time @ $135. per hour…

Between the soils engineer & the structural engineer the foundation and the sismic requirements for this little dinky house have prbably cost 30% more than what it should be…Why…Because the engineers protect the rear sides with over engineering to make sure they avoid any liability in the 10 year statute for construction defect liability…

If an understanding of history and/or the arts is totally irrelevant to a job, it’s a job more fit for a robot than a human. We just have too many of these jobs — because of how mixed up our society is — not too many liberal arts grads.

The liberal arts grads are the middlemen/women who get in the way of engineers doing their jobs. They’re the marketing managers, marketing directors, product development managers, business development managers, customer quality care managers and the rest of the BS titles found in any large company.

In other words the people who really should have no business being employed. Millions of these positions have been eliminated in the past 1-2 years. And that’s a good thing. They are useless and provide no value.

And I say this as someone with a liberal arts degree and MBA who spent a fair amount of time as a manager and director of BS. Luckily I woke up in time and switched paths.

Hey, engineers execute designs and ideas that, to some extent, come from those useless people who are less technically oriented! And they wouldn’t get out the door into the real world without another set of useless people. Imagine a world for, by and about engineers. Spooky.

Definitely there is a need for non-technical people. Sales people are needed. Accountants. Creative types that come up with ideas. The day to day admin people who keep offices running.

But there are levels upon levels of paper pushers that are not needed. And that is who I am referring to.

My dad was a terrific salesman of fabricated stainless steel products…but what probably what made it work was the engineering degree he got before he went to the Dale Carnegie “How to Win Friends and Influence People” course.

Argh.

Why do engineers always count themselves among the brightest and most important? 90% of the engineers I’ve met have been COMPLETE IDIOTS. Incapable of engineering, incapable of communicating, incapable of working a freaking printer.

The remaining 10% have been valuable, but that can be said for probably any field.

Monster sure doesn’t show any high tech jobs in North Dakota.

Try dice.com for techie jobs.

Everyone knows that there are just millions of great paying jobs that cannot be filled because people have the wrong degrees and not enough experience.

So the government should solve the whole problem by printing enough degrees and experience for everyone; especially the poor and illiterate, who tend not to have any.

Now, on to the next one…

Creative types that come up with ideas.

Well, we have enough “idea fairies” here in the military thinking up bullsh*t now….”Hey, wouldnt it be great if…” is said so much it makes me sick..

“Well, we have enough “idea fairies” here in the military thinking up bullsh*t now…”

How else do you promoted to Col?

I’m probably a bit biased, being an engineer and all, but the thing I have found that makes engineers count themselves as the best and most important is the day to day decisions they find themselves having to walk so many other people through.

I think the mindset of an engineer is to take a problem, break it down into discreet components, then solve each of those component problems. People say we have no creativity because we don’t make up bullshit, we just solve problems. The shortest path from A to B doesn’t necessarily involve stopping at Lake Havasu for drinks.

Fortunately, I’ve learned that even when requirements are that product A needs to be built in time X with features T, U, and V, that was actually made up by one of those bullshit artists, and neither the time constraints or feature list probably have any basis in reality other than that particular bullshit artist imagining their next big bonus check and vacation. This means I can add my own layer of bullshit upfront and make it bullshit that I care about, like only working 40 hours per week, or having offsite development meetings to discuss design for “creative energy”. Too often though engineers are willing to believe that something is “important” and they make that part of what is important to them. Really it is just making someone else getting rich important to you at the sacrifice of your own quality of life. So in this respect, yes engineers are quite often very naive. But dumb? Hardly ever I would say.

“The shortest path from A to B doesn’t necessarily involve stopping at Lake Havasu for drinks.”

Lake Havasu with the front desk hottie? You bet!

Companies use to have secretaries to write letters, keep the managers organized, etc., but with the dawn of the personal computer the managers have to do this crap themselves. No split tail birds to stare at all day, dreaming about wining and dining and diddling ‘em…at Lake Havasu.

The 21st century: take a pill, be productive, invest in the company’s 401k, be happy in your sexless marriage, Jesus loves you, don’t save, charge it now, etc., a modern version of an Arthur Miller tragedy. Glad it’s falling apart!

Even in the Engr world though, the top performers are those that understand that even though X is what the customer swore they want, we can win the contract by suggesting we can build the gold plated XGG for even less than the more practical X. This lets us win the contract, and then we can gently bring up enough little niggling details to let us finally build X at the normal price (well, plus all the additional change order profit due to the customer “changing their minds.”)

(How is this magic trick possible? Look at which disciplines get the final word on who to hire…)

-Matt who is proud he worked for the loser company who usually proposed X.

It’s all just a part of the whole legal plan to break the back of the American worker.

Just watched “The Prisoner of Second Ave” last night.

What an eye-opener. An unemployed Jack Lemmon finds out about the “global conspiracy” to ruin him by listening to talk radio…

…in 1974!

Yes. Let’s blame those EEEEEEVIL foreigners on H1-B visas. 95,000 people in a country of 300 million are the cause of all our problems. And that 95K is actually 65K. You’re confusing the current number with 195K which was once the number before the protectionists got in the way and lowered to 65K.

You might also find it interesting to learn that a lot of H1Bs are not in high-tech and not from India. Lots of Euro and Canadian H1Bs in very un-technical jobs.

But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story.

But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story.

You might start practicing what you preacheth.

Problem with you eddie, is you are ‘on top of the mtn’ and you are only looking in one direction. Isn’t good for fighting. Ask stpn. Gotta be alert and educated on all fronts. Not just the one viewpoint.

Eddie:

You must not work in the sciences or in engineering. If you did, then you would see first-hand entire US companies completely staffed by Chinese, Indian, and Mexican workers. Chinese doing “science”, Indians doing “engineering”, and Mexicans doing the cooking and cleaning. Only the executives are US citizens.

It doesn’t matter where I work. I could work behind the counter at Burger King and it wouldn’t change the fact that protectionism is wrong whether in goods or services. What you are advocating is restricting the services of foreign nationals to artificially prop up American wages. It’s no different than putting a 20% tariff on a foreign car. And it’s an awful idea. Always has been.

I don’t care if it’s an American or Chinese or Indian doing the work. I want the best qualified person doing the work. And if that person is from China, so be it. Sometimes a job calls for a $10 an hour resource instead of a $100 an hour resource. Why should I pay someone $100 to do $10 worth of work? Makes no sense.

And I do work in technology indirectly. I work with a lot of independent contractors who are programmers, DBAs, sys engineers, etc. All Americans. All billing $100+ an hour, some close to $200 an hour. Which is why I laugh at the idea that Americans are going hungry while their jobs are being stolen by those eeevil foreigners.

Eddie’s got a point here … “You might also find it interesting to learn that a lot of H1Bs are not in high-tech and not from India. Lots of Euro and Canadian H1Bs in very un-technical jobs.”

My wife came over from England on an H1-B and so have many of her friends. They’re in the fashion biz. Are they taking American jobs? Maybe. Hard to say, many of the companies are run by foreigners and they hire what they know … and they like to have workers over a barrel, too. Wife now naturalized and caught a lot of grief for missing a few days of work for jury duty. It was a first in her company.

Chinese doing “science”, Indians doing “engineering”, and Mexicans doing the cooking

If I owned a compay, that’s the way I’d do it. I love me some Mexican food, but I’m not too hot on noodles or curry.

Eddie:

I think there is a breakdown of communication here. You assert that “protectionism is wrong”, but provide no cohesive explanation as to why it’s wrong.

Here’s why I think it’s right:

1. We were much better off as a country when we had tariffs in place, and our economy has been declining in lock-step with globalization.

2. Tariffs do not prop up wages. They simply compensate for differences amongst currency valuations, which brings us to 3:

3. Resources. Currencies are valued differently because of differing levels of political stability amongst countries. The dollar has been worth more because people see it as being “stable”. Hence, in India, you can live a great lifestyle with fewer dollars, although this great lifestyle does not consume fewer resources. It’s inaccurate to say that Indian engineers consume fewer resources simply by consuming fewer dollars.

4. Wage arbitrage is a self-destructive phenomenon, since it relies on an impoverished worker base and a wealthy consumer base. Because workers are consumers, it must eventually implode, causing a whole lotta grief in the process. That’s what we’re seeing now.

And that 95K is actually 65K.

You are forgetting about the 20k that are given to foreign graduates of American universities. 85k total.

And by the way, multiply that 85kby the last 10 years and throw in a few tens of thousand for the years it was 195k and it adds up to over 1 million foreign workers added(most are sponsored by their companies for a Green Card and never leave the US).

1 million is a lot for any industry.

There is no shortages because of the 65k H1-Bs available this year, there are still some available!

There is no shortages because of the 65k H1-Bs available this year, there are still some available!

Bingo! When times were good the visas would run out in just a few months. Now hiring is so weak that they aren’t even hiring H1-B’s.

People also forget that H1-B’s stay many years on that one visa. I’ve seen the invasion first hand where I used to work.

BigV,

Why do you hate us engineering folks?

Just curious of how your criteria came about? What is a good engineer in your opinion.

Second, why do you consider the economy worse? From a lot of standpoints, other than the debt, things are better. Quality of goods are better. Services are better. exc.

Was it really better when GM/F were the only games in town? It took a lot of law suits to get those guys to put in freaking seatbelts. They were still pushing carborated engines when everyone else had gone to EFI? Not to mention they push you to buy a large vehicle and have never offered high quality smaller vehicles. Food is better. Electronics are better.

I think, like I’ve mentioned to you, that we need to back slowly away from things; and it would be better if we did something like implemement wage standard system. So, if you want to market your goods/services in the USA, you have to pay living wage levels. Would you be OK with that? Not technically a tariff either.

Would not break my heart if a democrat president and congress decided to commit suicide by throwing up a bunch of trade barriers. Remember, a couple percent drop in GDP has been a major cause of heartache. You burn China and we lose big number of people working in other trade related industries right away. Not to mention potential for rapid price increases and actual shortages. Bet you could contract the economy by 5-6% on top of what we are already seeing.

queue Exeter… Yes, scare us with tales of scarcity….

And you might manage to create actual scarcity.

~James

The other perspective….

I think the H1B visa’s are a great deal for the US. These guys show up, work really hard and we sell them education (aka a rare successful business).

Some, we didn’t even have to pay for their first 13 years of schooling. Others we got all 17 years for nothing. Heck at the prices we charge OOS kids this is a bargin.

It’s like getting 150K+ for nothing. Even if you pay standard wages!

Then they work and pay taxes to the tune of 30% and probably will never get to collect SS/unemployment as we send them back to where ever.

Plus they probably spend about 50% of the remaining money. Hence it’s only 20% of the money that goes out of the economy.

Its wonderfully deflationary! And business loves it. How could this possibly be wrong.

Anyhow, not thrilled with H1Bs either. Bunch of mostly incompetent bastids.

Hi James:

I don’t really hate engineers; I just hate it when stupid engineers think they’re smart. I’ve worked with a few of them, ya see. Just for the record, I was called a “genius” by my physics teacher in college, so no, I’m not just jealous or whatever your average engineer would chalk it up to.

I consider most people to be stupid, so when I say that most engineers are stupid, I’m not really setting you apart from everyone else. Call me a hater, I don’t care.

I consider the economy “worse” because a lot of people are unemployed. It’s better when people can get work (and, of course, get paid).

The “multiply over 10 years” argument is not quite so. Many H1Bs switch employers and when they do they get a new H1B. So the same person can get an H1b in year 1, year 2, year 5, etc. And each year they are part of that year’s number. This goes on a lot. Plus the visas are renewable every 3 years. So even staying with the same employer, one person is at minimum counted twice. And it’s not for “an industry”. H1Bs as I stated already apply to ALL INDUSTRIES. Why is that so hard to understand? It’s not just Indian programmers that use H1B.

Don’t take my word on protectionism’s faults. Take the word of Adam Smith.

Why tariffs is Good?

I do not understand. Right now tires are already much more expensive than a few years ago. I can still remember $28 a piece ten years ago, but now it is mostly more than 80 a piece. They are not same size, but I did not want a $80 tire, I only need a $28 working tire. There are many things I do not understand, tariff being good is one thing. Maybe good for those who actually make those things being tariffed upon, but how about regular people needs things at lower price? Will they actually be forced to pay higher price? If yes, then it is at least not all good.

Ahhhh… The endless loop.

People in the first world need lower priced goods –>
More cheap labor is needed to produce lower priced goods –>
Mfg. jobs are shipped to the third world for cheap labor –>
Fewer mfg. jobs in the first world mean lower wages –>
Lower wages causes reduction in household spending –>
People in the first world need lower priced goods.

rinse and repeat. Isn’t there a bottom at some point? Maybe we’ll only be happy when we are living in corrugated aluminum huts with dirt floors. 12 year old girls can skip off to work in the factories for 20 hour shifts at 15 cents an hour making Kathy Lee Gifford handbags for Walmart. Just so they can feed themselves.

The only reason that traffics are bad is that foreign products have a monopoly in America today because the American manufacturing base cannot compete and undercut them ,so they can price fix and pass the tariff cost on to the consumer .
This is the very reason why you can’t give up your manufacturing
base to foreign Countries .

They got us between a rock and a hard place ,so we should do the intelligent thing and make a new law that any American Corporation that transfers a job to a foreign base has to pay
a big old rip roaring tax on that worker that the government collects to offset the damage ,or anything that provides incentive for manufacturing and a job base to be brought back .The rest of the World must think we are down right stupid .

Queue exeter blah blah blah.

Looky here Junior…. I’ve worked for the top 3 civil design firms on the planet so I don’t need a lecture from a peon CAD operator or whatever you are.

Design is executed electronically across the globe. There is no flippin “trade barrier” when it comes to design. More and more design work is completed off shore and that trend will grow. The fact that your ideology clashes with reality, truth and facts is like a nuke exploding…… and it completely eludes you.

Now back to your CAD station.

The good news is that almost all those smug geniuses were let go and replaced by Indian engineers who could so twice the work in 1/2 the time with 1/100 the attitude.

Eddie:

Dude, you are totally making me mad. The reason our economy is so AWFUL is that US companies have been allowed to replace US workers with Indian/Chinese/Mexican workers, who have an extrememly cheap currency to work with. This is called “wage arbitrage”. You can look it up. It has always been known that wage arbitrage is one of the quickest ways to ruin an economy. It basically decimates whatever’s been built up over hundreds of years. Our predecessors put a lot of effort into creating a nation with a stable, strong currency and reliable society. Today, our corporate leaders are raiding that stability for their own short-term gain.

We can not continue to allow this to happen.

It started off with all the “low-lifey” farm workers, restaurant staff, and housekeepers, then moved up to the “uneducated” manufacturing workers, then spread to the “overpaid” software engineers, and now has infected the “smug” PhD-level scientists and inventors.

No one is safe from this systematic transfer of opportunity FROM Americans (who deserve it by right of posterity) TO foreigners (who, frankly, should look toward their own governments for the justice and liberty they crave).

No one is safe from this systematic transfer of opportunity FROM Americans (who deserve it by right of posterity) TO foreigners (who, frankly, should look toward their own governments for the justice and liberty they crave).

——

I like that last part, especially. Amazing (or not so) how the Mexican gov’t complains when we talk of putting up a fence, etc. If we did that, they’d actually have serve their people to some extent, instead of saying, Mexico, love it or leave it!

er, “have to serve their people” … what can I say, “Dora” is on loud in the background!

Big V-
Spoken like a true American. Thank You. To top it off, the arrogance of these guests (H1-B & L1-B’s) and invaders (illegals) in our country is irritating.

When confronted with the question if their standard of living was to take a hit, all the ones I’ve met say, they can and would go back to “their” country.

They could care less about our history,culture, our people, or our future. We’re just a job bank to them. To Americans, this is our country, not just a job bank.

“transfer of opportunity”, eh Big V?

So if someone who is qualified who not an american is willing to do a job for less for the same quality work and maybe even work longer and better, the employer has to hire the american at the inflated wage?

So we have to mandate that employers have to hire americans only at an inflated wage?

Ask GM how that worked out, I’m sure they will oblige…

Wages cant keep going up and up into the stratosphere, Big V. Eventually you would have to expect someone would come along and do the job for less….that is why unions have screwed up this country’s manufaturing base AND auto industry. The govt has enough safe guards in place to insure safety and fair practices without unions sticking their heads into a private companies business.

The average american worker is spoiled..period. They think they should get paid to come to work and socialize and fart off with minimal labor. That is why the labor market is in the state it’s in now….

Big V,

Capitalism doesn’t care about borders. The only way to keep work at a higher wage rate than elsewhere is protectionism. In the absence of protectionism, the company that chooses the high cost road fails. In the presence of protectionism, other problems present themselves.

It actually started before that time of late 30’s-1940s when the gov sanctioned the “Bracero Program”
and even before that during the 1800s when railroads brought in chinese people to slave building railroad tracks.
Funny, but history shows that during those times when chinese workers were being paid a penny or so a day, they rarely got sick ( acupuncture-herbs and ate right), meanwhile the white boys got sick or diseased parts all the time.
It started off with all the “low-lifey” farm workers, restaurant staff, and housekeepers, then moved up to the “uneducated” manufacturing workers,

the employer has to hire the american
No this country has to start making education a massive priority so that we can have our own Americans work.
That isn’t what has been going on and the corporations are behind it and love it. This enables them to do just what you are proposing. Capitalism isn’t the same as Greed or monopolies.

Yes Al, we need to bring “protectionism” back to America. It has been known for a long, long time that tariffs are required to prevent economic collapse when societies with different currencies trade. We somehow let a few clever corporate elitists convince us otherwise (how silly of us), and now we are paying the price for our own stupidity. Other countries protect themselves with huge tariffs against our stuff and artificial devaluation of their own currencies. A race to the bottom; no good.

Stepn2me: I agree that it’s possible for the worker to gain too much control in a union situation (e.g., auto workers). However, there is no way our nation can survive economically if we allow US companies to make decisions based on wage arbitrage (not based on a lack of qualified workers or whatever). Ultimately, wage arbitrage is currency arbitrage, which is destructive to all involved.

All it takes is simple tariffs (we had them once) to account for the differences among currencies.

Hey great idea everyone. Let’s bring protectionism back. It worked wonders in the 1930s. And why should I have a choice between Ford, Chrysler, GM, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Kia, BMW, Mercedes, Saab, Volvo and Jaguar? I can do just fine with GM, Chrysler and Ford right? So what if it will cost $40K for a GM that falls apart after 50K miles…as long as I save those precious American UNION jobs, it’s all worth it right?

Big V, Your economic theories are so last century. Unless we turn back the clock, a global economy is upon us, like or not. Overpaying for labor is inefficient and any efficient market system will doom it.

I liked the good old days, but a reactionary economic policy is not going to serve us well. We gotta play the cards we are dealt.

We gotta play the cards we are dealt.

So, how to go about that? The citizens here, do what?
We continue to buy other countries products cheaper, and yet ours have tariffs on them? And so forth?

Yes, we need to turn back the clock on our current foreign economic policy. We need to go back to what worked for us and what has always worked for every other country too. We need to bring back tariffs.

Tariffs did not cause a problem in the 1930s (get your history straight) and, guess what, we also did not have a huge trade deficit in the 1930s. The 1930s are not comparable to today in terms of tariffs.

Today, we import WAY MORE than we export, which basically means that we consume more than we produce. That’s not sustainable. We have to get back to producing the way we used to. The only way to accomplish that is to get back to imposing tariffs the way we used to.

This is economy 101 folks, and I’m not even an economist. I think I learned about the necessity of tariffs back in middle school, during history class. Something about trade with the Native Americans. Dollars vs. turquoise or some such. And the white man would trade beads for PEOPLE!

Tariffs. Gotta have ‘em.

Oh, and one more thing:

WE are the music makers, and we are the ones who dream the dreams.
-Willy Wonka

In this country, we are not “dealt” anything. What are you anyway, a man or a mouse?

DD, I hate to say it, but we need to readjust our expectations. Why do Americans have the right to large houses, endless use of energy, 2.5 kids, cars when we want them? We don’t, we just lived so far beyond our means and we are now starting to pay for it. I agree that the tariff system is unfair, but life is unfair.

We need to understand what we do well and things that are better left to others. Ask yourself if we can ever compete in the paper industry, even on a level playing field, when our workers expect 3-4 (or 10) times the wage the Chinese worker is getting, with no environmental regulations to worry about? Don’t compete on price, we can’t. Innovation, quality and other factors are where are strength is, not trying to out-Walmart the foreigners. We will (and should) lose that battle every time.

“The good news is that almost all those smug geniuses were let go and replaced by Indian engineers who could so twice the work in 1/2 the time with 1/100 the attitude.”

We’ve obviously had different experiences, because I worked with an Indian some years ago who had an attitude the size of India. Not only that, he was a bigot. Smug comes in many different colors.

Overpaying for labor is inefficient and any efficient market system will doom it.

Wow - this sounds like a justification for slavery. I can imagine Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee discussing this over mint juleps on a plantation in Mississippi in 1960.

Wow - this sounds like a justification for slavery. I can imagine Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee discussing this over mint juleps on a plantation in Mississippi in 1960.

Wow - talk about a strawman. You do realize we have laws against that sort of thing now - right?

Yes, packman, we have laws against slavery. Unfortunately, some of the countries we trade with have no such laws. In Turkey, for instance, it’s not illegal to own another human being. Are we really competing with these people for wages? Sounds like we should protect ourselves from that sort of thing.

Skip, I am not talking about or condoning illegal labor practices. I AM talking about paying someone $75/hr union wage for something someone can do just as well in a foreign country for much, much less.
Ask the steel and UAW folks how the steel and auto industries made out doing that?

Big V, How do we protect ourselves? Do we not buy their products. I am OK with that in my personal decision making, but that still doesn’t justify overpaying our labor force to the point we can’t compete. We are not competing for wages, just trying to sell the same products to the same buyers, as such, it is pure folly to try to do so.

BIg V is so right with what she is saying ,that it isn’t funny . Big V is very smart and knows America is toast if the United States continues with these liberal open border policies .

The only reason why the Americans didn’t get in a huff over all
this outsourcing was because they were sidetracked for about 10 years with a false feeling of wealth because of the debt Ponzi -scheme that used real estate to generate
income . You guys act like it isn’t natural to protect what you have along with your standard of living ,and future generations standard of living .

You guys act like there is some Universal Law that its progressive to have a World labor pool ,in spite of the differences in cost of living . Sure the Labor Unions went to far in some cases ,but is that any reason to sell out America
because Corporations now don’t want to honor some of the stupid employment contracts they made ? In spite of you seeing your fellow Americans living in tent cites because of being laid off ,you fail to see how Corporations are being supplemented and the tax payers will have the burden so Industry can have their cheap labor .

Now that I realize how the stupid Politicians are and how bought off they have been ,I can see how Big Business got to them ,while the Americans didn’t know what hit them .

You trade with other Countries and you have proper trade
tariffs …….period . All you get with the set up the way it is now is Wall Street and Big Business taking advantage of
the lack of protection we now employ as our policies . I just hope it isn’t to late .

You think that it’s worth it to have your entire Country go
down the tubes ,just so you can have the choice to buy some foreign products ? I would rather buy some piece of shit American product and keep my neighbor employed ,any day of the week ,than see my fellow Americans living in a tent ,while I have to endure some foreigner on the telephone ,when I know that could be a American job on the other
end of the telephone .

I didn’t get a lot of sleep last night ,so I’m just ranting ,but later I will post about this when I have had more sleep .But ,
mark my word ,if we don’t undo the damage that has been done by this Global wage force and loss of American manufacturing based ,you all are going to be telling stories
to your grandchildren about how you loss your Homeland to
Corporate Greed . I just had to pipe in here a little .

Wow - this sounds like a justification for slavery. I can imagine Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee discussing this over mint juleps on a plantation in Mississippi in 1960.

Wow - talk about a strawman. You do realize we have laws against that sort of thing now - right?

Skip - I just realized that you were (I presume) referring to slavery as it may exist in other countries, not the U.S. - right? Assuming so - never mind my comment. I thought you were implying that realestateskeptic was proposing to reintroduce slavery in the U.S.

In reality this does get to the root of the problem - the U.S. is simply competing with other countries that don’t have the same legal standards that we do, including workplace standards, environmental standards, etc. The solution is simply to ensure, by treaty and by tariff, that that doesn’t happen. Don’t allow “developing” countries to have lower environmental standards, e.g. like in Kyoto. Don’t allow them to have lower workplace standards. Don’t allow lower product quality standards (e.g. like the whole Chinese drywall thing).

I think we do generally do a decent job with the latter, but not at all the first two.

That’s what’s killing American industry. Yeah wages play a part too - but personally I don’t have a problem with us competing toe-to-toe on the wage front, but only if all other things are equal. If wagers were the only factor then more often than not the costs of shipping, logistics, etc. would more than offset the wage savings, allowing us to have higher wages here but still keep jobs here. However as it is the 1-2-3 punch of lower wages, virtually non-existent workplace laws, and virtually non-existent environmental laws, give China, India, Mexico, etc. a huge advantage.

I AM talking about paying someone $75/hr union wage for something someone can do just as well in a foreign country for much, much less.

But the problem is that just about ANY job can offshored these days. It’s not just the stereotypical overpaid autoworker, its any job that pays a living wage and doesn’t require face to face contact with a customer. And they continue to be offshored as we speak.

Why do you think so many folks became Realtors, Mortgage Brokers, sub contractors, etc.? Its because there was nothing else left.

Big V, How do we protect ourselves? Do we not buy their products. I am OK with that in my personal decision making, but that still doesn’t justify overpaying our labor force to the point we can’t compete. We are not competing for wages, just trying to sell the same products to the same buyers, as such, it is pure folly to try to do so.

For starters, we can make our own stuff and not import junk. And please don’t tell me that jeans will cost $100 and a pair of socks $10. They didn’t cost anywhere nearly that much when we made our own. The truth is we pay pretty much the same (at the store) for name brand goods, regardless of where they were made.

BIg V is so right with what she is saying ,that it isn’t funny . Big V is very smart and knows America is toast if the United States continues with these liberal open border policies .

This would be hilarious if Big V had written it herself.

I would start calling her “Big ‘Bob Dole’ V”

I would like to add. In spite of the fact that you know that Wall Street messed up the entire financial system of America ,with a greed that knew no bounds ,you think that the trade policies and the surge in job outsourcing and transfer of American
manufacturing to foreign soils is aside from that same greed and profit motive that destroyed the financial systems.

Just like Wall Street marketed bogus CDO’s ,they have done a good job at marketing the Global cheer-leading . Wow,isn’t it grand ,you get to buy cheap shit at Wal-Mart .You judge things by the fruit it bears ,and the fruit is rotten ,at least if your a American depending on a American job base with livable wages ..

i don’t give a shit that a GM production worker made 75 bucks a hour ,that worker took that 75 bucks and spent it in American creating more jobs because of it . I think the health benefits and the long term retirement benefits could of been more so based on a teared program that tracks with the profits of the Company rather than a fixed contract ,but those are the mistakes of the past . One should ask ,why were Corporations allowed to underfund their retirement plans ? Why did the government take funds from Social Security ?

Instead of seeing how Corporations and Government screwed
up good concepts with their corruption ,people would rather
scratch protecting this Country in favor of absurd spin statement like ,”We have to compete with Mexico “,or,”We have to compete with a billion and 1/2 in China .” No ,we don’t have to compete with a billion and 1/2 in China .

No one is safe from this systematic transfer of opportunity FROM Americans (who deserve it by right of posterity) TO foreigners (who, frankly, should look toward their own governments for the justice and liberty they crave).

Of course we have well developed sense of entitlement to carry us forward and guide us
~James

Deserves got nothing to do with it
~from William Munny to Little Bill Daggett

“Deserves got nothing to do with it”

If we don’t fight for it, then we don’t deserve it. We are fighting for human rights when we fight for workers’ rights. We need a living wage, environmental regulations, labor laws, good education for our kids, all that good stuff that sets us apart from the enslaved people of the world. Just saying silly things like “we have to play the cards we’re dealt” is defeatist. We’re better than that.

Why is an American entitled to a job any more than an Indian or Bulgarian?

One of my biggest pet peeves is the term “losing a job” as in I lost my job today. Or this month 450,000 American lost their jobs. No you didn’t. It’s not YOUR job. It is a job that for a period of time you happened to perform in exchange for payment, usually in dollars. paid to you by an employer. Your employer owns that job, not you. And your employer can decide on a whim to throw your sorry ass out the door and go hire someone in India for 1/10 of the cost. And he/she has every right to do so no matter how much whining that may bring form others.

Don’t like it? Start your own company and hire only Americans at $150 an hour with full benefits, 8 weeks vacation, 4 day workweeks and every Wednesday is happy Funday which means everyone’s in at 11 and out at 3 and gets to wear Hawaiian shirts to work. If you can make that work, all the power to you.

But until then please stop with this ridiculous notion that anyone owes you a job. Nobody owes anyone a thing.

Hey Eddie:

Better yet, why don’t you move to Bangalore and see what it’s like to live in a society where people have no rights and the environment is not protected? Maybe you could find yourself a job as a trash picker. ‘Cause that’s the world you’re rooting for here. You do realize that, don’t you?

Race. to the. Bottom.

Another strawman. You’re on a roll today.

I am not rooting for anything except the most efficient way of doing things. And that means if I need $10 worth of labor, I will pay $10 and not $100. This is not hard to understand.

As for the ridiculous notion that we did just fine without foreign competition; that is true for about 15 years. 1930-1960 and that’s only because they rest of the world was rebuilding after WW2 and pre-WW2 protectionists had risen to power. Pre-1930 the world was as globalized as it is today.

How do you think Great Britain maintained its empire? Who do you think the 13 Colonies sold their products to? Why do you think explorers went exploring…for kicks? No, they went exploring for new markets with which to trade.

Look at any great empire over the past 700 years and their power was derived from one thing: trade. Holland, France, Portugal, Spain, England.

And yet now because we have 10% unemployment and unions are dead, we’re supposed to throw away centuries of evidence to the contrary and stop trading with each other. It’s beyond absurd.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Countries have search out locations that they could exploit or take over in the past ,not simply trade with them . But, the exploration days have nothing to do with the current state of affairs .

You Globalist love to quote details from history to support Globalism ,yet you hate to focus on the failures of Globalism
in terms of what it could do to a already developed system like
the American system was .

In spite of the fact that some people made bad choices with
their money ,by buying giant houses and fancy cars ,a lot of that was brainwashing by the Industry that benefited off
selling over-priced big monster houses and cars,and selling over consumption by going into debt beyond onces means . There has been periods in American history where people where much more prudent and conservative with their funds and put a great deal more to savings .

And Eddie you say that” nobody owes anybody a job” ,yet it is the Corporations that think that they don’t owe anyone a job or decent wages in spite of expecting those same people to buy their products .

Many Corporations grew strong under the American system
to the point that the American taxpayer has been supplementing them ,yet there is no loyalty to the people who
made them and supplemented them to begin with (there use to be ). And who
did they turn to when they needed to be bailed out ,the
American taxpayer .Screw us on the job front ,yet we have to bail you out . And just who protects these American Companies abroad ,,,,,,,,our National Defense ,that American taxpayers pay for .

Eddie:

Nobody on this board is suggesting that we stop trading with one another. We are suggesting that we return to the fair and wise use of tariffs. Only tariffs can protect the US dollar, as only they can compensate for the differences among currency valuations (as I have explained elsewhere on today’s board).

It goes like this:

1. Tariffs prevent currency arbitrage.
2. Preventing currency arbitrage prevents wage arbitrage.
3. Preventing wage arbitrage prevents an unsustainable, parasitic relationship from forming between stable and unstable countries.
4. Preventing parasitic relationships prevents the nasty occasion of either having the kill the parasite or having to watch the parasite kill the host before dying off itself.

Your suggestion (that we should stop using tariffs) is absurd. We tried it; it didn’t work. Let’s move on.

What in the world does buying big houses have to do with the folly of protectionism? Come on, is this really the argument you’re laying out…people bought big houses so we should shut the door to free trade. Makes sense.

Eddie, what in the world are you talking about? You are arguing points that no one has made. I think you’re doing this because you realize there’s no way to argue the points we’re actually making. Now that’s a sraw man.

PS
I’m sick of people overusing the word “straw man”. A straw man is not something that you simply disagree with. It’s when you pretend something’s there that actually isn’t, and then use it as a basis for a logical argument. Kinda like when you argue with a point that isn’t being made.

Eddie wrote:

I am not rooting for anything except the most efficient way of doing things.

Perhaps looking for the way that yields the most benefits to the American populace is a better goal.

Big V……great posts .

What strikes me is that I hear people arguing for low wages for Americans ,no anger over lack of wage increases for the last
7 years ,and a attempt at selling low standards of living for Americans ,as if they deserve that fate and Corporations /Wall Street deserve their greedy profits with fewer people getting a chunk of the American pie while the elite have unheard of wealth to buy 12 Mansions World-wide .

We are a entitlement society because of the hard work of
our forefathers and people just want to give it all away .People risked their lives to get better working conditions and fair wages and protections on consumers products ,yet
people don’t give a darn about toxic dog food and drywall
shipped over here . Yes ,any Country that is worth their salt tries to provide a job base and manufacturing based for their
Citizens . Economic systems have to be controlled because of the points that Big V laid out in her posts.

Having cheap foreign labor ,while Americans live off credit cards and real estate didn’t work as far as scams go .

The theme song now in America is give up ,give up . I always have to stop when I hear the words “give up .” My whole life whenever I have heard the words “give up “,it was always because someone wanted that thing that they wanted me to give up . Americans are suppose to give up more than a century of development in benefits for workers and consumers protections ,just so China can use their cheap plastic to produce
toxic crap we can consume . I don’t care if it cost 50cents more to produce a plastic container in America because my wages
would keep up with it and all systems would be tide in together
as it was for many years in this Country .

wiz, I’m with you.

Excellent posts, both Big V and Wiz. Couldn’t have said it any better myself.

Thank you.

Big V:

Protectionism goes against every economic theory devised since the 1700s. My argument is based on empirical evidence, and centuries of history. Trade leads to prosperity, protectionism does not.

Your argument is based on nothing but emotion and a sense of entitlement; ie a) it’s not fair that lazy unionized Americans making $75 an hour are replaced with hard working Chinese working for $7.50 and b) your belief that your are entitled to a job.

As for the argument that we should do what is in the interest of America; I do want that. But that is done by allowing 300 million Americans doing what is in their own interest. And that means buying foreign goods when they’re cheaper. And that means hiring foreign workers when it makes sense. When every person maximizes their own economic situation, the country as a whole prospers.

When you force someone to pay $10 for socks when a $1 option is available, you’re hurting that person. Maybe you save 100 jobs at a sock factory. But 299.999 million people now become $9 poorer. That is not efficient allocation of resources and the country suffers.

Eddie, the proof of the pudding is that the Americans are hurting and starving for jobs, so apparently this GLobal wage force has not been in the best interest of the American work
force .

You act like we owe people from other Countries a job because they can do it cheaper ,when in reality the ’saved costs “goes into the pockets of the Corporations and their stockholders and
the outlandish CEO salaries . I don’t call that a situation in which America prospers ,as you suggest . In fact ,the extra savings goes in the hands of the few ,and that is not great distribution of the wealth if your concern is for “efficient allocation of recourses .”
The more people are unemployed ,the more it taxes the welfare system ,have you thought about that supplement to BIg Business ?

Big V and Wiz- Really outstanding posts explaining your views.

It’s amazing that some can’t see where the free trade/outsourcing policies inevitably end up for US citizens. It reminds me of those who couldn’t see how easy credit/big spending would cause the housing bubble to burst. Looking back it seems obvious. Everyone should have seen it, but they didn’t. It’s the same with free trade. It’s pretty easy to see how it ends up.

I just drive through Ridgecrest yesterday. Looks like any other podunk CA desert town - Victorville, Lancaster, Barstow. Well at least the ones to have the good? fortune to be big enough to warrant a WalMart. There’s plenty others who have not achieved that milestone - Inyokern, Atolia, Randsville, Trona, Boron…

Amboy.

Amboy.

P-E ?

P-E ?

Professional Engineer.

In my entire 25 year technical career, I’ve met two.

BIG V …you are so right on with this issue . If you looked on a balance scale ,the plus for a Global economy at this time in history just does not
outweigh the minus ,at least for Americans that is .

Sorry Big V…I was referring to “sales engineers” and the like.

But,even if your self-employed ,Global wage competition can make it impossible for you to even be able to be self employed
and be able to compete anymore .

The effect of faulty tariffs on imports ,or worse, the fact that American
Corporations don’t have tariffs when they import from their divisions from others Countries ,is creating a monopoly .
Companies or self employed people that don’t go Global are left in the dust .

OK…

nycdj, what else would You do?…

“Now somewhere in the black mountain hills of dakota
There lived a young boy named rocky raccoon
And one day his woman ran off with another guy
Hit young rocky in the eye rocky didn’t like that
He said i’m gonna get that boy
So one day he walked into town
Booked himself a room in the local saloon.

Rocky raccoon checked into his room
Only to find gideon’s bible
Rocky had come equipped with a gun
To shoot off the legs of his rival
His rival it seems had broken his dreams
By stealing the girl of his fancy.
Her name was magil and she called herself lil
But everyone knew her as nancy.
Now she and her man who called himself dan
Were in the next room at the hoe down
Rocky burst in and grinning a grin
He said danny boy this is a showdown
But daniel was hot-he drew first and shot
And rocky collapsed in the corner.

Now the doctor came in stinking of gin
And proceeded to lie on the table
He said rocky you met your match
And rocky said, doc it’s only a scratch
And i’ll be better i’ll be better doc as soon as i am able.

Now rocky raccoon he fell back in his room
Only to find gideon’s bible
Gideon checked out and he left it no doubt
To help with good rocky’s revival”.

Ahh I love the smell of Beatles in the morning.

Hi SanFranQualityLady!!!!

Mom down to one re chemo?

How is she doing San?

Your friend,

Greg

San:

I was thinking…

I have plenty of friends, and lady friends as well. All of good standing. This is Sir Paul Mc Cartney’s LAST TOUR.

( I know you can’t do this, but let’s house for a minure, OK?).

I thought…

I’ll get us decent seats, ( if I can, 2K minimum is the going rate), you can book a Hilton in St. Louis, and you and me would have a blast.

However, like life, there is always a problem…

I invited Shorty first. He wants to eat Sir Paul McCartney, all band members, the stage, and the electronics attached thereto.

So…

It’s me and Shorty, and I am sorry.

“house for a minure”

Heck I Like it!! I know San thinks it’s ATE-UP.

Heck, I don’t even know what words I was trying to say!

I might change my CB radio handle… “house for minure”.

Until then, I am going to sleep.

Minure, a/k/a ATE-UP.

Ate-Up,

Mom has two more chemo treatments. She is doing really good.

I will have to pass on the invite. Thank you for thinking about me and mom.

Mom says thank you for being so thoughtful.

Did you go back to work?

I invited Shorty first. He wants to eat Sir Paul McCartney, all band members, the stage, and the electronics attached thereto.

You think that’s funny, Mr. Man. Wait until he actually DOES. Plus any handy roosters and a cat or two, for dessert.

SanFranQualityLady:

Glad your mom is doing well, and tell her my heart thinks about her, and you too. I know how good of a lady you are, and I am sure your Mother made you that way.

Oly Gal:

Yeah, I know. that is why he is my best friend, and also why I invited him first!

San: I forgot, and thanks for asking.

Yeah, I think I am going back to work, probably a couple weeks.

Adolf Hitler/Charles Manson/ Richard Speck/ Pol Pot, etc., is on vacation in Florida, but I talked to him today.

He is a good guy. Two athletes locking horns and he beat me.

I am Roberto Duran, in “Ray Leonard v Duran”. No Mas. Thanks for asking Quality Lady.

Watched “Grizzly Man” with a gal I was dating.

She got all teary eyed, sensitive gal that she was……

I was alternating between LMAO when he “got et”, and making snide comments about “…..what a friggin’ moron…….”

We broke up a couple of days later It was probably for the best.

Funny how nature slaps us back to reality whenever we start to think we are so dominant that we can do anything. Such as interact with grizzly bears on our own terms.

We do NOT have the physical attributes to survive in the wild such as fangs, claws, body hair, heightened sense of smell, or super strength. We supposedly have a brain that we use for survival. Supposedly.

I did get to interact with a Bengal tiger once.

Daughter’s best friend’s uncle ran an exotic animal farm (supplied animals to zoos, etc). She would go out there to ride horses.

Went to pick her up one day, her friend showed us the nursery. They had some kind of African deer that looked like a chihuahua-sized white tail. They also had a 3 month old Bengal Tiger. Got to play with him a while. Acted like any other kitten, except he weighed about 40 pounds, and his teeth and claws were bigger. Yeah, we got clawed/bit a little, but it was worth it.

Did you know tigers purr? I didn’t, but this little sucker was purring when we were playing with him.

They had a couple of adult snow leopards………the horses gave their pen a WIDE berth.

A new car is not a luxury? Doesn’t it lose something like 25% of its value when it’s driven off the lot?

Yeah and why is that? Anyone ever questioned who came up with that?

when it’s driven off the lot?

Not even. Just when the paper is signed..

And how do you see that said money is a transfer from the private sector to the public sector? My guess is that most of it is just printed by the Fed.

The act of the Fed printing money and giving it to the public sector is a transfer of wealth from private to public.

The creation of the money first devalues all other existing money, which is the act of taking wealth from both public and private. However the new money is all (or mostly) given to public, so the net for public is positive, net for private is negative. A transfer of wealth.

And those are 4 cylinder models, not the ones with the 3.5 L V6 Honda Engines. The 1st Gen models with the Honda powertrains are in greater demand than the newer Opel Antara based 2nd Gen VUEs that are equipped with the crummy GM 4 bangers. Asking prices for 1st gen 4 bangers are much lower as well, as much as 5K vs the Honda powered models. Even when equipped with a GM V6 the 2nd Gen models don’t seem as popular. I don’t know why, I just report the asking prices I see on cars.com. And the asking prices on first gen V6 VUEs are way up compared to last year. If Saturn of Ft. Collins asks the same price for a 2005 Honda powered VUE as they do for a 2008 with GM’s mediocre 4 banger or even the antiquated V6, I guess they must know something.

As to whether our VUE would fetch 10K or 15K its irrelevant. We’re not selling it or trading it in any time soon, since the part that counts, the Honda power train, will last a long time.

Yup, that’s exactly what I’m going to do, I want 1/2 price rent from now up until the foreclosure sale! There’s no way he’s going to rent this to somebody else; and it would be a financial windfall to me, so, I could, in fact, come out of this better than I went in.

Anyway, that’s my hope; I’ll keep you all apprised as to how it goes.

Oh, and for the rent prepayment. Typically, in FL, landlords wanted first/last and security (especially for “luxury” homes). So he’s holding ~2 months of rent (last and the security).

Why pay him anything, you could be saving 100% of you rent, not just 50%. Let your money on deposit with him ride and save the rest until the foreclosure sale and possibly beyond. Can’t see how he has the resources or desire to try to evict you under these circumstances.

You are 100% correct. He should not be paying this landlord 50% rent, he should be paying him zero. Clearly the landlord is not paying the mortgage and is just going to pocket the money, if anybody should be pocketing the money, it should be the renter for once!

Fecaltime!

Yes they can but then you can sue for everything the landlord owns…….which under past times was a lot of money…think Rednecks!

———————————-
They can not kick you out without a court order.

Got Popcorn? ammo?

Roidy

Or the Davie Bowie song?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77Qjh2MQf7Y

I think it depending on the day of the week. Nonetheless, the posts were funny, punny, and often invoked literary references to things I had long along forgotten. I even own a few gold coins thanks to him….

Pretty sure it was a play on the Bowie album:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aladdin_Sane

Ah yes, he will be mist, A tad insane.

Full story at 11.

Electricity is included in the rent….so why not waste the AC if you have a bad landlord…..

————————————–
left the doors wide open with A/C running at full blast inside