October 18, 2009

Bits Bucket For October 18, 2009

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316 Comments »

Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 07:52:39

Good Morning No coffee this morning. Just like the cash for clunkers program, drinking coffee makes us believe that caffeine gives us energy, it actually borrows energy from the future.

When you drink a cup of coffee, the coffee chemically stimulates your Sympathetic nervous system. As a result, your level of adrenaline and other stress hormones quickly begin to rise. You don’t get something for nothing, unfortunately and so later in the day your energy level begins to fall even lower than it was when you started. There is a good cure for that low feeling – another cup of coffee. And this is one reason why stimulants are so addictive.

So I am switching to herbal teas and grain coffee such as Bambu, Pero, Postum, Cafix and Inka. Btw they taste shall we say interesting.

Comment by scdave
2009-10-18 08:04:20

Point-Counterpoint….Paging Rancher….

Comment by Rancher
2009-10-18 16:38:44

I was weaned on coffee. Our Norwegian Mom
had a hot pot on from morning light to the dead
of night.

 
 
Comment by talon
2009-10-18 08:05:51

Without my morning coffee I’d go on a three state killing spree. Factor THAT into your analysis (he said, pouring his second cup brewed from fresh ground Kenyan AA beans).

Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 08:24:45

Without my morning coffee I’d go on a three state killing spree. Factor THAT into your analysis (

Caffeine and other stimulants potentiate the stress response. In other words, they make your fuse shorter. If you give up the coffee your mood will be more even. It is easier to maintain your inner equanimity when you don’t drink coffee.

Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-18 08:45:23

“Without my morning coffee I’d go on a three state killing spree. Factor THAT into your analysis”

“Caffeine and other stimulants potentiate the stress response. In other words, they make your fuse shorter.”

It was the coffee talking…

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Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-10-18 09:55:48

“It is easier to maintain your inner equanimity when you don’t drink coffee.”

Sure, but it is a lot easier to ENJOY my inner equanimity after I have my coffee.

Maybe all of you people with short fuses should give up coffee—and send yours to ME! :-)

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Comment by CentralCoastDude
2009-10-18 16:33:17

B-12 shots in the arse!!

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Comment by Muggy
2009-10-18 08:50:58

“I’d go on a three state killing spree”

California, Nevada, and Florida?

Comment by Backstage
2009-10-18 23:40:52

Nah, they’re goners already.

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Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 10:49:43

Without my morning coffee I’d go on a three state killing spree. Factor THAT into your analysis (he said, pouring his second cup brewed from fresh ground Kenyan AA beans).

Boy, no kidding!
(she said, drinking enthusiastically from her second cup of fresh ground Trader Joe’s Bolivian Organic dark roast with a chunk of white chocolate in it.)

But even with my morning coffee I was thinking of going on a three state killing spree. So can I come along, talon?

Hey, and you know what, I have a nice little French-press I take traveling, so when the killin’ is all done I’ll just whip it out and make you a nice cup, settle you right down.

Comment by talon
2009-10-18 12:11:18

French press? Well, I AM impressed. I’ve always been afraid of those things–with my luck I’d get the handle slightly askew and end up with coffee and shards of glass all over the place.

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Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 12:36:49

Well, I’ll man the French press, then.
Besides the luck issue, you’ll probably be all sticky and drippy from the killin’, rendering your hands too slippery to grasp a hot French press properly. Can’t have that. Safety first, as the Girl Scouts say.

…Does this mean I can come along? Hooray! Lessee, where did I put my favorite road-trip boots? Where’s my giant bag of gum-balls? Where’s my kazoo?

 
 
Comment by AmazingRuss
2009-10-18 12:35:34

I for one want to be fully alert before embarking on a three state killing spree.

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Comment by DD
2009-10-18 13:52:43

when the killin’ is all done I’ll just whip it out and make you a nice cup,

Oly, you are skeering me. You are beginning to sound like ’silence of the lambs’ “i am having a friend for dinner”…

shivering quietly in a corner!

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Comment by mikey
2009-10-18 14:16:39

DD,

I told you she was a Bear !

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 15:38:00

Relax, relaaaaaax, I wouldn’t eat anyone. Jeeze! As if!
….they could be germy, for one thing.

I would have to know someone long enough to ascertain that they had clean, sober, abstemious habits and were healthy before I could possibly consider eating them.

Take you, for example, DD. You sound healthy and nourishing but the problem is, that by the time I knew this for sure I’d probably be too fond of you to eat you. In fact, now that I consider it, I’m already too fond of you to eat you.
See? You’re totally safe, so like I say: relax. ;)

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-18 19:19:53

You sound healthy and nourishing but the problem is, that by the time I knew this for sure I’d probably be too fond of you to eat you. In fact, now that I consider it, I’m already too fond of you to eat you.
See? You’re totally safe, so like I say: relax.

Whew. Missed it by that much!

Note to self, continue with healthy, self improvements so as to endear myself to northwestern wood sprites and those froggy things Oly likes.

 
 
 
Comment by REhobbyist
2009-10-18 13:11:59

Bought a pound of Kona beans at Marshall’s for only five bucks this week. A cup or two of coffee in the morning is a good thing. Doctor’s orders.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 15:39:18

Five bucks?!
Jealous face!

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Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-10-18 08:22:31

Don’t some “herbal teas” have more caffeine than an equal amount of coffee?

Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 09:05:42

Caffeine is also found not only in coffee but also in colas, chocolate and other cocoa products, regular teas but not in herbal teas. Decaffeinated coffee, teas and soft drinks are a major improvements, but these do contain caffeine. It is better to switch to decaffeinated drinks and then slowly wean yourself off these too.

Comment by Bill In Los Angeles
2009-10-18 10:41:18

Recent studies have shown coffee drinking prevents diabetes. Also, I don’r get a drop in energy in the afternoons. The real killer of energy in the afternoons is the morning pastries. In fact, including raw, fresh vegetables in my lunch gives me a kick in energy. I used to get very drowsy between 2pm and 4pm. It’s the breads and junk carbs that gave me the drowsiness. At least for me. Coffee is no villain. Are you FLDS?

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Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 11:01:36

Interesting you bring up sugar. Eating refined sugar causes blood sugar level to rise rapidly. In response your pancreas begins to churn out insulin causing your blood sugar level to fall rapidly. As your blood sugar level begins to fall the pancreas begin to stop secreting insulin but not fast enough so your blood sugar level may dip even lower when you started. When this happens you may feel tired and run down. There is a good remedy for that – more sugar. The cycle is very similar to the addiction cycle of caffeine.

Unlike simple sugars, sugars found in complex carbs are absorbed much more slowly into the blood stream. As a result your energy level remains constant.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-10-18 16:10:31

My head hurts. :lol:

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 16:46:39

Mine, too.
But I bet it’ll feel better when I go fetch a beer and then pour some sugar into it and then add a floating pancreas and then guzzle the whole shebang down, huh?

 
 
 
 
Comment by ACH
2009-10-18 08:24:26

Hmm, very interesting comments. So, I can’t have a triple espresso this morning?
In that case, Talon, could I join you a little later in the morning? I’d have to get partially recovered from my early morning coma. You can start without me. I will be there, though.
Roidy

Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 08:37:58

Talon, could I join you a little later in the morning? I’d have to get partially recovered from my early morning coma.

Most people find when they stop drinking coffee that they go thru withdrawl, they feel tired, think fuzzily, get headaches and become a little depressed and low on energy. After three or four days you will notice a new calmness. When you wake up in the morning you will not need a cup of coffee to get you going. Even more important your “fuse” will get longer and you won’t find yourself tired later in the day.

Comment by In Montana
2009-10-18 10:33:03

When did “withdrawal” become “withdrawl”? I’m seeing that everywhere now.

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Comment by hip in zilker
2009-10-18 10:37:18

sometime after “lose” became “loose”?

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 10:54:31

When did “withdrawal” become “withdrawl”?

When we got more relaaaaaxed about the whole thannnng?

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-10-18 11:06:24

‘withdrawl’ is what you go through when there’s no more ‘Mt. Dew’ in the frigidaire

 
 
Comment by Bill In Los Angeles
2009-10-18 10:43:53

Most? Homey Claus don’t think so.

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Comment by ecofeco
2009-10-18 16:11:47

…cause Homey don’t play that game!

(Man I loved Homey the Clown)

 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-10-18 12:51:09

SUGuy,

You sound like a reformed drinker. ;) Have you started your own Coffee Anonymus group?

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Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 18:47:24

No but I can be an expert witness for anybody here on HBB wanting to sue Starmucks for product liability as long as we split the profits fifty fifty.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Rancher
2009-10-18 08:30:02

Coffee: the drink that makes you do stupid things
faster with more energy.

Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-18 08:46:49

I only drink decaf now. The fully loaded stuff does a number on my nervous system. I don’t like the feeling.

Comment by mikey
2009-10-18 09:36:09

Bear walks into store, goes straight for beer cooler
By Associated Press
Oct. 17, 2009 | Hayward — Grocery shoppers in Hayward got an unexpected surprise when a 125-pound black bear wandered inside and headed straight for the beer cooler.

Okay, whose day was it to watch Oly and her wombat hat ?
:)

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Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 10:16:09

Well, that’s about the right size and certainly the right behavior, and I surely don’t mind a nice long road trip if there’s beer at the end of it.
But what kind of beer did this furry creature head for? Was it on sale, in bright and colorful cans?

‘Cause that’s the clincher, there. :lol:

 
Comment by slb
2009-10-18 10:28:11

Hayward? As in CA.? That’s, like, bay area suburbia, you know that town of dreary little 50ish stucco bungalows jam packed on little lots you drive through to get on the San Mateo bridge on your way to 49er football games. Odd for a bear to be anywhere near there - racoon, possum, skunk, maybe the occasional deer, sure, but a bear? Weird. I dunno, couple that with the straight for the beer cooler thing, mmmm, guess it was stocking up for football sunday.

 
Comment by slb
2009-10-18 10:37:54

Never mind - found the article - Hayward, WISCONSIN - back to sipping coffee, waiting for brain to engage.
“Witnesses say he climbed onto a shelf, 12 feet off the floor…[and] seemed content to sit in the cooler, they note he didn’t drink any of the beer.” Case closed - wasn’t Oly.

 
Comment by mikey
2009-10-18 10:37:58

It’s YOU Oly,

Great survalence video pictures.

http://tinyurl.com/ykrwr94

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-18 10:52:39

But what kind of beer did this furry creature head for?

Losty’s famous “Squatter’s” Rat Bastard Ale :-)

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-10-18 10:56:26
 
Comment by DennisN
2009-10-18 11:00:37

I keep preaching that posters should indicate a state when posting about a commonly-named town. Almost all states have a Hayward, or a Fayetteville, or a Lincoln.

Heck, even Idaho has a town named “Democrat”. It’s a ghost town on the road to Whiskey Mountain. ;)

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:08:15

“Bear walks into store, goes straight for beer cooler”

Now THAT’S my kind of stimulus…

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-10-18 13:06:01

Dennis, do you remember the Hamm’s Beer Glass neon sign on top of the Hamm’s Brewery San Francisco?

I loved how the beer glass would fill up with beer and then be topped off with foam. You could see the sign while driving on 101 heading out of San Francisco.

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-18 13:57:10

Loved that sign. Wonder who bought it and has it place perfectly at their house?

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-10-18 14:44:01

Shoot, I am old enough to remember the Hamm’s Beer “telebizzon” commercials, the female singing “From the land of sky blue waters…” wasn’t there a dancing bear too?

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-10-18 14:52:16

They are great commercials. I loved them when they were on tv when I was a kid, still do. I remember the Hamms sign in San Francisco too, from visits to my brother who lived in the Bay Area.

after the w-s: youtube.com/watch?v=Eiu8BmnIzFE&feature=related

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-10-18 15:04:11

SF BAG,

Of course. It was a highlight of driving up to The City. I had forgotten the brand though - shows how effective their advertising really was.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 15:26:32

Heck, even Idaho has a town named “Democrat”. It’s a ghost town on the road to Whiskey Mountain.

That’s fabulous! I must see this place! I love ghost towns, Democrats AND whiskey! I’d probably get the Rapture for sure there!

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-18 19:22:13

I’d probably get the Rapture for sure there!

It isn’t time for you to go, or even go crazy.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 10:44:37

Try a shot of bourbon in your morning coffee if the caffeine bothers you that much…

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Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-10-18 11:08:27

hear, hear!

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 11:09:01

Yer obviously a genious, Rancher! :)

 
Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 12:04:46

Try a shot of bourbon in your morning coffee if the caffeine bothers you that much…

A man weighing 150 lbs having three cups of coffee in one hour with a shot of burbon will have a blood alcohol level of 0.69.

Alcohol combined with caffeine has a direct toxic effect on the muscle of the heart. Over time this can cause the heart to beat less effectively a condition called alcohol cardiomyopathy and the alcohol is toxic to a number of other organs like liver. Drinking more than one drink per day doubles the risk of hemorrhagic stroke and is a major factor in accidents.
Yes I know some physicians even encourage patients to drink moderately and upon close inspection people who drink moderately live longer because they often tend to have more social supports than others who do not drink.

 
Comment by Rancher
2009-10-18 12:19:12

You and my wife would agree on almost everything…

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 16:48:20

Comment by Rancher
2009-10-18 12:19:12

You and my wife would agree on almost everything…

“A man weighing 150 lbs having three cups of coffee in one hour with a shot of burbon will have a blood alcohol level of 0.69…”

Your wife has measured? :lol:

 
 
Comment by mtnbikegirl
2009-10-18 11:40:27

We do half caff…it does a number on hubbies ticker when he’s working out.

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Comment by DD
2009-10-18 13:58:59

Love my Zija first thing in am. gets energy up and sugar level even.
Then if I get I get on here to early, all bets are off on shortness of fuse, Zija or not.

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-10-18 17:38:00

That’s it! SU I still think ou are LDS. It’s okay to come outta the closet! I did the same to come out as an atheist!

Maybe you don’t wanna mention the resveritol (dang I cannot spell cuz I’m using my smartphone web browser - one site at a time). Seriously, what about the French pair o’ docs, the two buddies ya know, I mean the French paradox? And that the lucky French guy gets a wife, she kicks him outta bed, and permits him to get his manly needs fullfilled by a mistress? The French also eat small amounts of beef, chocolate, they like to smoke, and drink coffee.

I detect LDS bias here!

 
Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 17:59:00

That’s it! SU I still think ou are LDS. It’s okay to come outta the closet! I did the same to come out as an atheist!

I was never in the closet but perhaps you will be kind enough to clarify what LDS means or stands for?

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-10-18 18:52:25

Church of Jeebuz christo, Latter Day Saints - (Mormons). They do not do caffeine (except in Chocolate), do not do alcohol, have lots of “puppies,” starting at as close to age 19 as possible, and tend to stay married and live to 80.

The French eat what they like, drink lots of red wine, eat small amounts of rich foods (sweets, beef), smoke, the men have mistresses, and they too, live long lives. That’s the French paradox. Ask yourself which model seems like more fun! Tick, tick, tick…

 
Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 19:50:17

I can very confidently assure I am not a borne again idijit, a later day moron or have any puppies that I know of ?. The only church I like is the church of the poison mind.

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-10-18 21:20:18

Good! Thanks, and from the words in your posts, you seem to know what you are talking about. I am sure there are disadvantages to caffeine, particularly combined with booze. I was concerned, as is probably clear by now, that you do not acknowledge some of the bennies. I’m a two cup a day guy and the second cup of coffee is by 8:00 a.m. In the evening I have one or two glasses of red wine. In the early mornings I swim two miles, sometimes interval training and mostly brisk long distances for a total of ten miles per week. I think my aggressive swimming and the resveritol of wine has reversed some potential for cardiovascular disease in my body. I can explain some other time, but it’s about how I felt sometimes. I haven’t had those indications recently, albeit since stepping up my swim fitness habit.

 
 
 
Comment by jane
2009-10-18 11:51:27

I’ve got to weigh in. I’ve logged many, many years straight being the ‘heavy lifter’ in the projects I’ve been on. That means I get tapped on the shoulder sometime in the afternoon, and informed that a summary presentation is required at 9AM.

The first thing I do when I get on a project is to put together a store of stock summary slides and get them vetted.

However, if you’re not moving the ball forward in consulting, you are a sitting duck. The stock summary slides are a good first approximation, but never quite on the mark. I am guaranteed night and weekend work, most nights and most weekends. Naturally, I am on salary. It’s not unique to consulting. Same schedule applied when I was a regular jane in operations running a refinery, in financial management, in Treasury, and in accounting.

Try pulling the nights and weekends consistently over the long haul. You will see for yourselves the salutary effects of a consistent, strong supply of coffee.

So quit it with the sanctimony, or trade jobs with me.

Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 18:30:26

Thank you Jane for your very wise advice the other day regarding the bank owned property we were looking to buy.

In response to your above comment all I can say is that Emotional/Professional stress in today’s society tends to be chronic rather than acute. The pace of life in the past 10 years seems to be increasing faster- the so called acceleration syndrome. Like Alice in wonderland we go faster and faster while remaining in the same place. To cope with stress we are built right – but we are designed to cope with acute stress not chronic stress as you have described in your case. When our stress mechanisms are chronically activated the same responses that are designed to protect us can become harmful-even lethal. There are many misconceptions about stress. The ability to respond to stress and the ability to relax afterwards are equally important in being able to function effectively while remaining healthy. I am not saying we should be all laid back, avoid stress, and never get mentally or physically challenged.

The ideal response is to respond to challenges or difficult situations fast and efficiently and then relax. Most people with the help of caffeine get pumped up and then can not relax afterwards. During acute stress the hormones adrenaline and noadrealine give us more energy and help us think more clearly to deal with the challenge It is the chronic stress medicated with caffeine that prevents our ability to return to baseline to relax that the stress becomes chronic. When this happens we get insomnia, anxiety, artery spasm, depression and immune system impairment etc. Good luck with your all nighter work load.

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Comment by combotechie
2009-10-18 09:05:49

“You don’t get something for nothing, unfortunately and so later in the day your energy level begins to fall even lower than it was when you started.”

Ah, yes, that’s when it’s time to take a nap.

Life is good.

 
Comment by Lion-O
2009-10-18 09:54:22

I am naturally borderline comatose, so coffee in the morning makes me just right. I rarely need or want another cup later in the day.

 
Comment by oxide
2009-10-18 09:59:13

HBB People, you need to switch to smoothies.

12 oz boiling water
3 teabags green tea
3 scoops whey protein powder
1 cup vanilla yogurt
1.5 cups frozen blueberries

Make strong green tea with the teabags and water. Puree the berries, yogurt, and protein powder in a blender or food processor. Slowly add the green tea. Pour into three really big glasses and refrig overnight. It makes three bright lavender smoothies, about 250 calories each. Not only does it wake you up with protein, but you’re not hungry until lunch. No mid-morning crash.

Comment by In Montana
2009-10-18 10:35:28

I like my morning anti-depressant hot, black and calorie-free.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 10:56:48

OK, that sounds really good, but too labor intensive. I like to grind my beans for thirty seconds, throw them into the paper filter, dump water into Mr Coffee and let her rip. Five minutes and two blog posts down the road, I am starting to feel the buzz. I add soy milk for protein and rapid cooling to a temperature where guzzling is an option.

 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2009-10-18 11:01:48

Very popular with the other patrons at the gay bar, I’m guessing.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:09:49

LMFAO! Dang — I just spit my herbal tea all over the keyboard…

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Comment by Stpn2me
2009-10-18 20:57:54

LOL..

 
 
 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-18 10:24:04

Jay Leno to SUGuy: “Shutup!” ;-)

Comment by Bad Chile
2009-10-18 10:37:59

I don’t know about y’all, but I’m thinking that bear had the right idea for a morning drink.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 11:26:56

Oh, look! Another genious!

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Comment by REhobbyist
2009-10-18 13:16:49

I add sugar, too, to cover up the bitterness. SUguy, are you for real?

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Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 13:48:10

I add sugar, too, to cover up the bitterness.

The problem with sugar is that it is consumed eleven times faster than sugars being consumed from fruits etc. The problem with sugar is it is often found with fat: cakes, pies and so on. Sugar provides empty calories and promotes tooth decay. There is a built in warning signal advantage to using honey or maple syrup. That is if you eat too much honey after a while you will begin to feel queasy. With refined sugar the warning signals have been refined away, so it’s possible to eat large quantities without even being aware of it. So it is better to eat an apple than apple sauce and apple sauce rather than drink apple juice.

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-18 14:02:51

of course, for real. Not everyone is doing caffeine shooters!

As a kid at Piggly Wiggly in Portland, they had free hot coffee in coffee aisle ‘61-65, tiny little kid sized cups. Worst crap I ever tasted. Became a non coffee drinker from that point on.
Blech blech spew spew blech ugh. doing uglyfaces right now. blech.

 
Comment by Stpn2me
2009-10-18 21:00:43

The problem with sugar is it is often found with fat: cakes, pies and so on.

And THAT’s why it tastes so GOOD!

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 10:43:16

Drink your damn coffee and shut up.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-10-18 12:48:25

I WILL NOT GIVE UP MY COFFEE. It’s the only bad habit I have left and this bad habit is the one I love. Don’t you know coffee is the LAST LEGAL HIGH.

BY GOD YOU WILL HAVE TO PRY MY CUP OF COFFEE FROM MY SHAKING HANDS. RIGHT NOW I FEEL LIKE I WANT TO DO SOME DAMAGE. ;)

For those of you that don’t have a sense of humor some of the above was a joke.

Comment by DD
2009-10-18 14:04:48

Calm down ladyeeeeeeeeee, easssssssy, just back away from the knife.
do NOT push that button. NO no no , not the red button…ayyyyeeeee

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 15:15:48

It’s the only bad habit I have left…

What?! That’s it?! Ya piker!
But, if that’s all you got, work it baybee, take your addiction to the MAX!
:lol:

 
 
Comment by Dr. Strangelove
2009-10-18 14:16:51

“You don’t get something for nothing, unfortunately and so later in the day your energy level begins to fall even lower than it was when you started.”

Caffeine is a short-term stimulant and not worth it’s downside later on. More importatly, it exacerbates/amplifies Bitchiness in PMS. I’ve tried to explain this to people for years. In particular, my Girlfriend. I gave up long ago. As of late, she’s been hitting the pre-Halloween candy and drinking Soda, and just can’t figure out why she woke up with a headache and is “snappy.” Freakin’ DUH!!

“Want another Soda with that chocolate bar honey?” :-(

DOC

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 15:23:34

More importatly, it exacerbates/amplifies Bitchiness in PMS. I’ve tried to explain this to people for years. In particular, my Girlfriend. I gave up long ago. As of late, she’s been hitting the pre-Halloween candy and drinking Soda, and just can’t figure out why she woke up with a headache and is “snappy.” Freakin’ DUH!! “Want another Soda with that chocolate bar honey?”:-(

Why does your post make me laugh, I wonder?
Maybe it’s all the cupfuls of caffeine, alcohol, candy-corn residue, and a weeee bit of my favorite botanic substance presently floating around in my system, right here at 3:22 pm on a cloudy, pretty, still Sunday afternoon.
I want to feel sympathy for poor, patient, long-suffering Doc Strangelove, but instead I’ve been sitting here cackling merrily…

(Oh, but I never drink soda. Soda is bad for you.)

*assumes virtuous expression *

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 16:28:37

Get a new girlfriend; one that either doesn’t drink coffee, or who does not have the PMS-exacerbation issue with caffeine…

Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2009-10-18 19:08:54

“Get a new girlfriend; one that either doesn’t drink coffee, or who does not have the PMS-exacerbation issue with caffeine…”

Yes, I am sure you can find one who is bitchy all the time - no caffeine or sugar needed. :D

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Comment by ecofeco
2009-10-18 16:24:00

Wow.

Coffee.

Maybe Ben should start a coffee blog. The we could have a klatch get verklumped. :lol:

This thread is an instant classic!

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 08:02:22

Builders gotta build…

Housing, Leading Index Probably Improved: U.S. Economy Preview

Oct. 18 (Bloomberg) — Homebuilders and real-estate agents were probably busier in September, and the index of leading indicators increased, adding to evidence the next U.S. expansion has begun, economists said before reports this week.

Construction started last month on 610,000 houses at an annual rate, the most since November, according to the median forecast of 53 economists surveyed by Bloomberg News before an Oct. 20 Commerce Department report. Sales of existing homes rose to a two-year high and the gauge of the economy’s future course advanced for a sixth month, other reports may show.

Housing is stabilizing as Americans take advantage of government programs, including credits for first-time buyers and efforts to lower borrowing costs, aimed at stemming the recession. Some Federal Reserve policy makers remain concerned the economy will relapse should the stimulus be removed too soon, signaling interest rates will remain low for months.

“The housing market is recovering from very depressed levels,” said Zach Pandl, an economist at Nomura Securities International Inc. in New York. “We’re definitely emerging from recession, finding a bottom in some sectors, but the recovery is still uneven and it’s not particularly vigorous.”

Building permits, a sign of future activity, may have risen to a 590,000 pace, also the highest since November, the Commerce Department’s report on housing starts may show, according to the survey median.

In April, builders broke ground on new homes at a record- low 479,000 pace.

Leading Index

The index of leading economic indicators, due from the New York-based Conference Board on Oct. 22, may have risen 0.9 percent, according to the survey of economists. The gain was probably driven by the increase in building permits, a drop in claims for jobless benefits and an improvement in consumers’ outlooks, economists said.

A sixth consecutive gain in the leading index would mark the best performance since early 2004.

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 08:10:29

I spoke with a home builder/developer last evening. He said that the word he’s getting from the NHBA is that the $8000.00 tax credit will positively be extended to June 2010. They don’t see much chance of an increase to $15,000.00 as hoped.The one change that they are try to push through is that the credit be for anyone looking to buy, including, second homes, investors, etc…

We have a somewhat new plan here in our fair city(S.C). It is a grant program for down payments if you buy within the city limits. The amount ranges from $10,000.00 to $50,000.00. This is not a section 8 deal, it applies to any home within the city.

Comment by scdave
2009-10-18 08:16:09

grant program ??

Interest free loan ??

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 08:22:32

Yes sir! Ain’t that sweeet? No payee backee. Wonder where this ‘free’ money is coming from?

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Comment by Silverback1011
2009-10-18 08:24:37

A good question. The cities want to keep those tax rolls full I guess.

 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-10-18 08:27:00

Wonder where this ‘free’ money is coming from?

Redevelopment money maybe…I know our fair town has given a bundle of redevelopment money to Habitat…

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Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 08:55:37

“Redevelopment money maybe”

Probably…. In our fair city they are calling certain ares “empowerment” zones,this is where the FED bucks come in and what they are building are very nice townhouse, and single family homes. Staring prices $170,000.00 add in all of the ‘free’ money and some folks are getting them under $100,000.00 still a good chunk of change for this town, but there is no shortage of folks lining up for them.

A councilmen was quoted some months ago, that they were looking into a way to defer property taxes for up to 2 years, for new home buyers. That sure makes the rest of us happy as hell!

 
 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-10-18 08:24:31

that the credit be for anyone looking to buy, including, second homes, investors, etc… ??

Dodd just stated this on Meet the Press a few minutes ago..

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 08:59:19

No sh!t!

The cabal is just about unbelievable, Dodd should be wearing an orange jump suit two sizes to small, dating some dude behind bars.

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Comment by oxide
2009-10-18 10:37:17

Like anyone is going to believe Dodd on housing. He’s in the housing pockets. And where is Obama in all this mess? And TTTimmy and his BFF HeliBen? They all know full well what a rampant tax credit would do. Robert Gibbs (press secretary) harps on it daily.

And there was already a break for first-time buyers. It was called FHA 3% down, 20% for everyone else. WHY can’t we go back to that? (rhetorical Q)

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Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-10-18 08:24:41

Got a link for that grant program?

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 08:39:30

No, but I’ll try and look it up through the mayors office. I know it’s a combination of state and federal money. It’s been in effect for a number of months now. I do not know all of the qualifications involved, but I do know it is not just for low income folks.

I have been told by an RE agent that the income restrictions are $40,000.00 individual and $80,000.00 joint income.

Works out fairly well considering the avg. income in S.Carolina is around $38,000.00? Or $36,000.00 I can’t remember which.

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Comment by DD
2009-10-18 14:08:07

including, second homes, investors,

sonofabiatch. Prices won’t be coming down then.

But but but what about jobs?
So, it will be good for infestors and 2nd wealthy home owners, NOT the general populace.

TEEEEEEEE reffic.

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Comment by Michael Fink
2009-10-18 08:30:13

Oh please kill me. Why can’t they just let these credits expire and let the market find it’s bottom? Don’t they realize that there are really buyers out there, but they aren’t going to overpay for a home to take advantage of a tax credit? IMHO, if it’s extended to Jun 10, it will be a perm credit going forward (it will always exist, in some form or another, similar to the MTG interest deduction).

I am a first time buyer, and could actually take advantage of this credit (albeit in a somewhat fraudulent manner; one of the great advantages of not being married is the ability to shift income between 2 people to take advantage of ill conceived programs like this). I would support an extension with house price limits, (no more than 3/4s of the median home price for an area as the max home you can buy and still claim the credit, for example). I see WAY too many people talking to RE agents about the credit while walking through 500K homes. If you’re making the necessary income for a 500K home, you sure as HE** better be limited out of the credit!

Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-18 08:50:29

The funny thing about the credit is people bid up lower end housing way beyond the $8k, so it turns out the credit actually cost them thousands of dollars. People are dumb.

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Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 09:03:01

You are right, but like a blue light special it attracts them like files. They really think they are getting something for nothing.

And yes, people are dumb!

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 09:01:02

“IMHO, if it’s extended to Jun 10, it will be a perm credit going forward (it will always exist, in some form or another, similar to the MTG interest deduction)”.

I think you are 100% correct.

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Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-10-18 09:09:33

“I am a first time buyer” I hear ya, Michael. We haven’t owned in a long time, and can pay cash. This credit renewal is really pissing me off. All we want is a nice one-story “toe tag” home for a reasonable price. So, who our our competition? Specuvestors and people who really can’t afford a home, but through the magic of a FHA loan.

I am really, really pissed off. I might just blow a head gasket!

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Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-18 08:51:00

and Columbia SC is a spread out city….

———————————————-
We have a somewhat new plan here in our fair city(S.C). It is a grant program for down payments if you buy within the city limits.

 
Comment by Cassandra
2009-10-18 12:28:38

Is this “free money” taxable income?

 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-10-18 08:13:31

a drop in claims ??

A article in yesterdays paper said that the unemployment rate ticked down here and that it was a ominous sign that did not indicate any improvement in hiring…Unemployed people are leaving the state…

Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-10-18 08:27:06

As soon as someone figures out where they’re going, let me know.

Me + Ryder truck = outta here.

Comment by Silverback1011
2009-10-18 08:30:03

Not to Michigan, certainly. We’re losing population also. Too bad, because you can now buy, yes buy, nice houses for around $ 50,000 in many localities. ( Small towns, decent suburbs, not slums ).

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Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-10-18 08:40:31

Talked with an old buddy today. My old employer kicked another 60-70 people to the curb.

It seems that new sales contracts are in the toilet; so, they no longer have any need for contract administration staff.

Brown shoots………

 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2009-10-18 08:48:53

Silverback, how would you rate the Midland area in relative housing afforability terms - any idea? Would anyone want to live there in the first place?

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-10-18 09:23:09

“We’re losing population also.”

This to me is HUGE component of the bubble. I really don’t think we had immigration as much as we had municipalities overstating their growth. I argued even back in 2005 against the notion that “1,000 people a day” were moving to Florida.

In the past few years even Rochester was ‘growing!’ HELLO! I guess population stats at the state level are just darts to a board.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 10:14:44

I really don’t think we had immigration as much as we had municipalities overstating their growth. I argued even back in 2005 against the notion that “1,000 people a day” were moving to Florida.

Testify! And not just in Florida. I remember the long and tedious process involved in reshaping the urban growth areas hereabouts. Everybody got to sit around a big shiny table and argue incessantly. Those builder as*sha*ts argued and argued that we were gonna have at least 20 zillion people here in a year, so we had to expand the areas wayyyyyy out to fit them all. They also wanted a reduction in regulations protecting sensitive areas, because those pesky streams and drinking water aquifers are in the way of nice pastel aluminum-sided McCrapshacks.

Sprawl? Inefficient and poorly planned transportation systems? Sprawl? Sewer systems out in the sticks? Sprawl? Whassat?

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-10-18 11:11:22

Heck I had a buddy from defense engineering days who chucked software development in Silicon Valley and moved back to western Michigan to take up life as a farmer.

He was born and raised on a farm in the same county so this makes some kind of sense. It’s in the Traverse Bay area.

 
Comment by Silverback1011
2009-10-18 17:04:24

Iftheshoefits, I know that all areas up that way are a lot more affordable than they used to be. And, they weren’t that high to begin with. My brother is one of the project managers for the Hemlock Semiconductor building project near there ( funded/run by Dow ) and I know that although it’s expected to increase employment in the area somewhat, it’s not going to drive housing prices up that much because there are so many foreclosures in the state. A quick search of realtor.com brings up 505 E Ashman, 1340 sq.ft. 3 BR, 2 bath for $89900, hardwood floors, lovely home w/ DR, FP & den, very traditional home. I’d buy it in a heartbeat. That being said, one would have to have a secure source of income. Real estate prices in the midwest are damned cheap in most areas relative to the East/West coast.

 
 
Comment by bink
2009-10-18 09:23:06

They’re coming to DC, dontcha know? One of the many reasons I’m trying to get out.

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Comment by REhobbyist
2009-10-18 13:18:12

Bubble inside of a bubble. Same with stock market. Same with commodity prices.

OK HBBers, do any of you believe that we have reached the bottom? I absolutely do not.

 
Comment by Houston Observer
2009-10-19 06:05:26

I’m confused. What does this story have to do with coffee or the evils of caffeine and sugar?

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 08:13:53

WOO-HOO! At this rate everyone will be working in no time!

Administration: Stimulus kept or created 30K contracting job
USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — Contractors that split $16 billion in federal stimulus money created or saved 30,383 jobs, according to government reports published Thursday that for the first time tally the plan’s impact.

The figure represents only a narrow slice, about 2%, of Obama’s $787 billion economic recovery plan. But it marks the first hard count of the jobs preserved by the spending plan. They are based on reports by about 5,200 companies hired directly by the federal government for work ranging from small park repairs to multibillion-dollar nuclear cleanups.

The impact varied widely from state to state. The reports, released by the administration’s Recovery Accountability and Transparency Board, identified almost 4,700 full-time jobs in Colorado, but fewer than six in Rhode Island, which had the nation’s third-worst unemployment rate in August. In Michigan, which had the nation’s highest unemployment rate, the contracts created or saved fewer than 400 full-time jobs.

Obama has said the stimulus will create or save 3.5 million jobs by the end of next year, but measuring that impact has been difficult. The White House Council of Economic Advisors estimated last month that the stimulus had retained 1 million jobs that otherwise would have been lost. Overall, the economy has shed more than 2 million jobs since Obama signed the stimulus package in February.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-10-18 10:07:09

Perhaps the promise was that there will be 3.5 million jobs left in the country after the programs are fully implemented.

On the “math” side, if there are 500,000 new unemployment claims a week, how does that add up to 2 million jobs lost in eight months?

Comment by In Colorado
2009-10-18 11:38:14

I suppose that some of those 500K people per week are finding replacement jobs.

 
 
Comment by Temporal
2009-10-18 14:06:41

Wait, wait, 16 billion dollars saved or created 30000 jobs….. That’s 533,333$ per job! That’s enough to keep someone employed for 33 years at 7.75/hour…

Jesus, give me 16 BILLION dollars and I’ll create a million jobs this year. Granted, the jobs will only last 12 months and pay 7.75/hour doing odd jobs around my evil lair…

Comment by Temporal
2009-10-18 14:13:57

After further thought, I am willing to make a proposal to the US government. Give me 533,333 dollars to help save my job… I’m willing to remain working at an absolute lowly wage until obama is out of office and it will only cost you the current going rate for job creation…..

please?

 
 
Comment by Wickedheart
2009-10-18 14:19:02

“Obama has said the stimulus will create or save 3.5 million jobs by the end of next year, but measuring that impact has been difficult.”

Why do I get the feeling he pulled that number out of his backside?

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 08:20:46

This fellow must live under a rock in the wilderness, it’s all good out there. Jobs are being “saved or created” builders are back to building, stimuli is a flowing all over the place. The dollar is strong, gold is cheap,the DOW is on the mother ship heading toward the moon, etc,etc…

Recession Will Be ‘Full-Blown Depression’: Strategist
18 Oct 2009

This global recession will turn into a “full-blown depression,” Nicu Harajchi, CEO of N1 Asset Management, said Friday, adding that global stimulus hasn’t come down to Main Street.

Wall Street is making money, while consumers aren’t, Harajchi told CNBC.

“We have seen the G20 coming out with cross border capital injections of $5 trillion this year… But a lot of this money hasn’t really come down to Main Street,” he said.

“When it comes down to corporate America, corporate Europe or even in Asia, in Japan, we are not seeing Main Street making any money,” he said. “Consumers are losing their jobs. They are struggling with their mortgages, with their credit. And we are just seeing this continuing.”

The $5 trillion injection is “monetary expansion,” according to Harajchi. “At some point, which we believe to be 2010/11, some of the central banks are going to recall some of that money and that will turn from monetary expansion to monetary contraction.”

He also said he doesn’t see the corporates or the public “being able to pay back that debt.”

“We see 2010 becoming a much more risky year than 2009,” he said.

Comment by combotechie
2009-10-18 09:13:04

“‘We see 2010 becoming a much more risky year than 2009′, he said.”

The economy is following this well-worn script quite nicely.

 
 
Comment by mikey
2009-10-18 08:20:59

Home » Business Business

Bankruptcies up nearly a third this year in Wisconsin
By Paul Gores of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: Oct. 17, 2009

“Unable to stay current on monthly bills and other debts in the face of lost income and a recession, an increasing number of people in Wisconsin are giving up and declaring bankruptcy.”

“…Among those declaring themselves insolvent are small-business operators and real estate owners who have burned through retirement savings and home equity in the hope that the economy would turn around in time to save them, bankruptcy attorneys said.”

http://tinyurl.com/yhqkbwd

Comment by NYchk
2009-10-18 09:33:54

“The cut in paychecks… exacerbates situations that traditionally lead to bankruptcy for consumers, such as major medical bills, divorce or making too many purchases with credit cards.”

Something is very wrong with society when “major medical bills” result in bankruptcy, and when the media puts medical bills on equal footing with over-spending on credit cards.

Comment by scdave
2009-10-18 10:31:52

when “major medical bills” result in bankruptcy ?

I agree…

 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-10-18 11:41:43

when the media puts medical bills on equal footing with over-spending on credit cards

For many, the two are intimately related.

 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-10-18 16:34:13

Rule One in business: Never eat into your retirement fund or home equity to support your business. If it’s gotten to that point, you need to go out of business and try something else.

 
 
Comment by palmetto
2009-10-18 08:21:12

Do any posters have thoughts or opinions on PEOs (Professional Employer Organizations), staff leasing companies, etc? Upside and downside for employees? (I know what all the upsides are for the employers, plenty of public relations blather about that on the Internet). Buddy of mine was working a part time gig for a little extra cash and then all of a sudden the company popped this on him. Strange language in the contract about not being permitted to work out of state, they could reduce the pay to minimum wage at will, etc. He got a bunch of PR talk about benefits, etc., but the original company he was working for didn’t give him any benefits to begin with. Seems kind of fishy.

Comment by ACH
2009-10-18 08:33:58

“Seems kind of fishy.”
You don’t say? Really? It looks like a H1B type of contract.
One can refuse the contract if one wants to. I think the intent is to reduce the employer’s costs and turnover. The employer cuts the contracted wages and then doesn’t have to worry about getting the finger and the employee leaving for greener pastures.

IMHO.

Roidy

Comment by palmetto
2009-10-18 09:01:42

“One can refuse the contract if one wants to.”

Terms are: sign this, or it’s been nice knowing ya! He wouldn’t sign, so he’s looking for another part time gig. No biggie, it was just a part time thing, money was basically extra cash, not a whole lot. That’s why it was so absurd to him.

 
 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-10-18 08:34:49

As usual, it looks like the employer is trying to have it both ways. Employees contracturally tied to you, but gives them the opportunity to screw with the terms of your employment as much as they want.

AKA……”The wave of the future….”

Comment by palmetto
2009-10-18 09:19:19

Well, from what I’ve been reading, the way it works is, the original employing company “fires” its employees, and then they’re hired by the PEO or staff leasing company, which basically leases them back to the original company. This applies even to the owner and management of the company. So technically everyone’s “employed” by the leasing company, which handles the payroll, benefits, HR functions like drug testing and employee policy, etc. They do this for a percentage of the payroll, apparently. Original company gives them a lump sum monthly.

The sales pitch, as I understand it, is “You’re a small or medium sized business, we’ll take away all the headaches of hiring, firing, taxes, deductions, policies, drug testing, etc.”. I can see where that would sound pretty good to a small or medium sized biz. Employing people can be a real headache. But for the working grunt, supposedly, the original company can still tell you what to do. But now you’ve got TWO companies that can tell you what to do and when to do it. I even read one piece where a company wanted to hire this one guy, but the PEO wouldn’t do it, because they felt he was too much liability for whatever reason. Also read a horror story about one employee who got socked with some sort of tax bill from the state when he was let go because the PEO didn’t pay it.

I don’t like the smell of it. I’m sure there are reputable companies in the field, but with the state of business in the US being what it is, my trust level is pretty much bottomed out.

Comment by DD
2009-10-18 14:25:21

I hope we see more of this in the MSM, but, I doubt it.

Some serious journalism, research behind the conniving and manipulation of the American Citizen and just another way to “outsource” or “offshore”.

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Comment by ecofeco
2009-10-18 16:38:24

A temp agency is a temp agency no matter what it’s called.

And it’s not the wave of the future, it is the present and has been for years, if not decades.

And yes, the game is to fire your staff and then bring them back through a temp agency, complete with serious pay cuts.

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2009-10-18 08:21:44

I thought I’d repost this from our reader in Spain from last night:

Cruzcampo

Hello friends.

We are living a very calm month in october. There’s not green shoots neither bad news. I thought this month became the reality, the bad news about the economy. But everything is still. I think is the calm before the storm. we’re aproaching to a new 1,5 dollar vs euro and 75$ the oil barril. But there’s no news. Our goberment have done a great job for cause good impression about economy is in recovery.

In spain we have a economist called Santiago Niño Becerra. Since 2006 he was predicting what now is happening. As he says, this is not a normal crisis but a sistemic crisis. And now we are living in the precrisis. The real crisis will become in 2010. Your spanish fellows are in a forum called “burbuja inmobiliaria” in this link “www.burbuja.info” and most of people there believe in things that Santiago says, not that goberment says.

If you know how to read spanish here you can read his articles: http://www.burbuja.info/inmobiliaria/burbuja-inmobiliaria/51307-articulos-de-santiago-nino-becerra-post-oficial.html

In anyway I go to translate the last article of SNB. Maybe is interesting for you. Sorry for my spelling mistakes, I’m not english and yesterday were too much beers.

Tomorrow.

It’s curious (no: it isn’t) that is emerging a new worry: inflation: as states continue to have injected and injecting massive amounts of money into the system, there may be a danger that the money, when recovery has occurred , triggering an inflationary surge.

This reasoning forget two elements: 1) inflation arises when consumption is greater than supply (I use ‘consumer’ and not ‘demand’ on purpose), and 2) prices can be reduced by improving productivity, and uses reasoning: the system will continue operating as it has worked up until now through interactions where monetary and financial manipulations of interest rates, money supply, trading and role of states, will remain the essence of economic scenario.

From the outset, I think what will come of this systemic crisis will be a completely different reality that has led to a systemic crisis we’re going to have to go (we’re going to have to go because it is inevitable because follows the evolution of things), why should I think?, because it is absurd that it becomes a situation identical to that which caused the crisis that produced the change. The latest example is the Great Depression.

Consequently, instruments that have so far been used in reality and the elements that have hitherto characterized the reality will change. These instruments were designed to avoid price increases occurred and turn them off, and reactivate the cyclical downturns that were unleashed, the aim was growth through consumption-global-with everything imaginable, so that the global-supply-of should not have any restrictions. The recent past and present are known.

But that happened in an atmosphere of wasted resources, inauthentic use of factors and virtual payment and collection of what is bought and sold. And the future, I think, is going to be just the opposite because that procedure, which has led to dramatic increases in GDP, though fictional, is exhausted.

Systemic change will emerge from this crisis have to do with efficiency and productivity, and the necessary consumption and supply measure, and with the goal of zero waste. In a scenario like that unemployment of labor as we understand it today if it is a problem, but inflation?.

Of course it is always possible to artificially inflate prices by regulating the supply or via taxes to curb consumption spending for commodities is lower than it is, but that inflation would be another completely different inflation.

(It is said. In the USA the support will continue until “well into 2010″ (El País 10.10.2009, p. 28), while the OECD said that between the second and third quarters of next year, Spain will grow positively, but USA has it that painful, and for completing the arrangements, the Index of Consumer Confidence in the kingdom in September fell 9.2 points reaching the same level as showed in June, with the section ‘Expectations’ the most dropped: 10 , 8 points, leading to the perception of the economic situation of Spain recede 12.9 points (Dossier Econòmic 10-16.10.2009).

My impression (mine) is that, who can / have to, are tinkering with reality. ‘Are we being misled? “Says the fund, not that I know, but what if I think is that with Adobe Photoshop type software is actually more Light composing a less aggressive, more digestible. After tomorrow it will not do any good, of course, but tomorrow. Tomorrow).

(Lacartadelabolsa you’ve read in a long, long: Spanish financial institutions have sub-prime: loans, real estate and not to be outstanding as the working population will lose their jobs and businesses when it begins to rain cancellations orders and non-payments, said that such was the subprime Spanish and good: it’s coming to light. Lately been Moody’s, but a reader sent me something much wilder: this: FT Alphaville »Blog Archive» Are spanish banks hiding their losses?. Of course, all this can be believed or not deny, qualify, but the debts are financial institutions are there, as everyone must have income to pay their debts, if not … ).

(In a few days will discuss this matter in greater detail, is an advance. I do not think we are in deflation, but we are moving towards a deflationary environment, outright; is your cause?, Sinking consumption (almost all); ” the reasons for the collapse?, falling final monetary income (money you have in your pocket to reach the end of the month) and depletion (long ago) of debt capacity. “Increased savings?, not at all: no-consumption, which is not the same, ie unable to consume: the saving is something thought, planned, non-consumption is something, yes, but the desperate).

Santiago Niño Becerra. Professor of Economic Structure. IQS Faculty of Economics. Ramon Llull University.

thank, google translater

From Bits Bucket For October 17, 2009, 2009/10/18 at 5:00 AM

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 08:29:53

Thanks, I had not seen that.

Comment by scdave
2009-10-18 09:28:10

Neither had I…

 
 
Comment by exeter
2009-10-18 10:28:15

Anyone care to recreate the writing? Very disjointed and hard to follow.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-18 10:32:09

“…and yesterday were too much beers” ;-)

I like this chap already, I hope he drinks coffee after “A 4th Day”. :-)

(Hwy’s “A 4th Day” was in high gear at the start of the 13th inning… ET NY )

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 11:07:28

Maybe is interesting for you. Sorry for my spelling mistakes, I’m not english and yesterday were too much beers.

Boy, I hear ya, hermano…
Hahahah!

Your spelling is fine, and I am very interested in your posts. An up-close and personal view of the Spanish RE bubble aftermath?! Fantastic.
One of the most fascinating and valuable things about Ben’s Blog is the on-site observations of people who are actually living somewhere and seeing what’s happening and saying it like they see it.
I just can’t trust most main-stream media reports from newspapers and teevee, and I don’t care WHAT country they’re coming from. Those sources simply depend too much on ad revenue from the realtors and associated interests. They don’t dare bite the oily, greasy hand that feeds them.

Comment by Rancher
2009-10-18 12:29:44

Sundays classified for the Portland Oregonian was
a grand total of 8 pages….and if our local rag
wasn’t printing NOD’s, they’d be bankrupt.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 13:29:30

Sundays classified for the Portland Oregonian was
a grand total of 8 pages

Wow!

A year or two ago there would maybe be one or two or no NOD’s at all in The Olympian classifieds section.
I recall when the number started to creep stealthily upwards. It’s not stopping or slowing and there are a couple pages of NOD’s nowadays…
I guess it’s not ‘different’ here, after all?
HAHAHHAAHA!

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Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-18 11:40:33

“…Of course it is always possible to artificially inflate prices by regulating the supply”

Lordy, imagine if that was applied to oil & gold & diamonds… :-)

Run Hwy…RUN!

 
Comment by goedeck
2009-10-18 14:42:53

What happened to nhz?

 
 
Comment by Silverback1011
2009-10-18 08:23:16

We’re nearing the end of the redemption period that the former attorney has to repay her balloon note on the office that she borrowed money from my husband to buy when he was her clientv twelve years ago. Every time she goes to court & the state bar Ethics Commission she has lost. We’re expecting another lawsuit, but so far, nothing. Our attorney got sick of her abusive, ranting emails, so he blocked her a couple of weeks ago. She’s been warned to get her stuff out, and some of her larger possessions such as her desk, computer, and a few legal file boxes are gone, but the rest is just so much trasth, and looks like it’s going to be left there. We asked our attorney what we should do with any legal documents that are left behind, and he sent her a letter that told her we were not going to be responsible for storing her papers securely. We’re not a rental storage unit, anyway. We know she got the letter because she fired off several nutty, raving emails. I guess she wants us to store her junk in the office indefinitely, while paying the taxes and utilities on the place. No can do.
I found a couple of “clean-out” services on Craigslist today and we’ll be calling them to do a clean sweep. Our attorney, my husband, a locksmith, and a couple of county sheriffs will be doing the scheduled lockout toward the end of the month. We’re very excited. We’ve been paying off two sets of back taxes and it’s been an expensive summer. Luckily, our attorney takes monthly payments. We are quite good customers ( ! ), and are usually paid almost up-to-date, which I understand a lot of attorneys’ clients are not. Besides, he’s very excited to see the end coming to this saga, which was as much his as ours.
Somewhat surprisingly, we already have a professional interested in the office. He’s looking for a larger office space to possibly own, so we’re very pleased. He asked us for the address and wants to see it once we get in there. I hope it all works out. We just want to get this put behind us.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-18 09:00:13

Once the sheriff say move it to the curb then it becomes public trash…free for anyone to take.

Most times a sheriff has his own people move it, or they have a authorized clean out service to do it just in case the morons sue later on…Ask the sheriff who they recommend.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-18 10:39:38

“…the former attorney has to repay her balloon note”

Was listening to a radio show, they were interviewing a woman who has been a waitress for 41 years…when asked about who tips …vs…who doesn’t without hesitation, she said the worst tippers were lieyers & doctors…which is pretty much what my friend Senor Sanchez said about “who takes the longest to pay” once he’s laid down new carpet… :-)

Comment by Wickedheart
2009-10-18 14:22:55

“when asked about who tips …vs…who doesn’t without hesitation, she said the worst tippers were lieyers & doctors…”

Yeah and right after that comes Church people and salesmen.

 
 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2009-10-18 11:48:58

Thanks for the update as I’ve been following this with great interest.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 12:27:29

but the rest is just so much trasth, and looks like it’s going to be left there. We asked our attorney what we should do with any legal documents that are left behind, and he sent her a letter that told her we were not going to be responsible for storing her papers securely.

Let me urge you to recycle, silverbacky. Waste is bad.

Comment by Silverback1011
2009-10-18 17:42:41

Well, I have limited time & energy to spend going thru a mares nest of crappola. Recycling would work if we had a lot of time, but we want to turn this little problem office condo over into cash. There’s so much paper, dead palm trees, miscellaneous file boxes and junk in there you can’t step more than 12″ without stepping on a pile of trasth. Or trash.

 
 
 
Comment by Silverback1011
2009-10-18 08:33:03

Trasth = trash. It might actually be trasth, for all I know. We have to peek in thru the little holes in the blinds at night to see what’s going on. No one is there, and it’s our office, so I guess we can peek in at it. Besides, we want to make sure she hasn’t broken holes in the walls, stripped the place, etc.

 
Comment by Silverback1011
2009-10-18 08:37:07

Based on the above article in Spain, plus many other warnings we’ve seen posted here, we’re smart to get out from under the office asap since are now able to foreclose on it. We’ll be able to do something else with the proceeds. We don’t want the office. There is some usual talk about “hanging onto it until the economy is better”, but we don’t want the burden. Besides, there is sooooo much empty office space out there.

Comment by scdave
2009-10-18 09:35:23

Besides, there is sooooo much empty office space out there ??

And no foreseeable prospects that it will change any time soon…

Comment by Silverback1011
2009-10-18 17:43:56

If someone wants to buy their own little Bit O Heaven in office space, we’re not gonna stop them :)

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 08:46:02

WASHINGTON (AP) - What is $1.42 trillion? It’s more than the total national debt for the first 200 years of the Republic, more than the entire economy of India, almost as much as Canada’s, and more than $4,700 for every man, woman and child in the United States.

It’s the federal budget deficit for 2009, more than three times the most red ink ever amassed in a single year.
And, some economists warn, unless the government makes hard decisions to cut spending or raise taxes, it could be the seeds of another economic crisis. Horrific Deficit.

What Congress must do is to sharply increase taxes and violently cut spending in order to avoid worsening the economic catastrophe. What Congress does not have the courage to do is sharply increase taxes and violently cut spending. Mentioned this so you’ll know whom to blame for the disaster that looms dead ahead.

Peter Schiff is gearing up for a run for the U.S. Senate from Connecticut. I wish him luck. We need more people in Washington who understand the nation’s money mess and also know where the escape hatch is. A sensible economist in the Senate would be helpful.

“Foreign governments can lecture us all they want about the need for prudence but if they keep lending, we’ll keep spending. Any parent knows that if you give your child a curfew yet never impose any penalties when it’s violated, it will not be respected.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-18 09:05:07

GEEZ…if they gave 1/2 of that to people directly, there would be no recession today. Government spending has a zero multiplier effect on the economy.

—————————————————-
and more than $4,700 for every man, woman and child in the United States.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-18 10:47:05

“…We need more people in Washington who understand the nation’s money mess and also know where the escape hatch is.” ;-)

“…The financial cost of the war has been more than £4.5 billion ($9 billion) to the UK, and over $845 billion to the U.S., with the total cost to the U.S. economy estimated at $3 trillion”

A Senator from Arizona speaking on the front porch of one of his x7 homes/estates:

“We’ll stay in Iraq 100 years!” :-)

How much would that cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ wmbz?

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 13:03:00

I have no idea, ax Barry, he was going to bring them all home by years end. So much for teleprompter words, he does read well though. Should have been given a toastmaster award, instead of a peace prize… Just say’n.

Comment by DD
2009-10-18 14:41:16

mebbe the problem was way way bigger than what he was told AFTER you get into office. And then you have the powers that purposefully get in the way..ala lobbyists #g over 36,ooo .

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Comment by Muggy
2009-10-18 08:52:38

SP Times is hot today.

Ritchie Bros. still sellin’ ‘em
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/article1044655.ece

Economists whistled all the way to the cliff
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/article1044601.ece

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-10-18 09:01:55

They’re still whistling although an entirely new cliff is showing up.

In 2008, banks lost money in unconventional ways. In 2010, they are gonna lose it in entirely conventional ways (= defaults.)

Comment by Muggy
2009-10-18 09:04:29

“an entirely new cliff is showing up.”

LOL! It’s different here!

Cue Wile E. Coyote.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 10:48:53

How many cliffs does a banker get to fall off before he finally dies?

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Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-18 11:15:58

Silly Mr. Bear, “Welcome to Toonville” is posted at both ends of Wall Street. :-)

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:13:44

I had almost forgotten, but come to think of it, Wile E Coyote never seems to die, no matter how many times Roadrunner hands him the anvil as Mr Coyote heads over the edge of the nearest cliff.

Are banksters related to coyotes?

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 12:21:17

How many cliffs does a banker get to fall off before he finally dies?

Professor Bear, lets you and me capture a few trailer-loads of bankers and then locate a nice, big, high cliff and find out.
We’ll take notes and stuff, because this is for science.
I just love sciencey thingies, as you know.

 
Comment by wolfgirl
2009-10-18 12:43:51

Can I help? I love dropping things from high places.

 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2009-10-18 14:57:46

Don’t forget to bring some Acme anvils.

 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2009-10-18 11:06:30

They’re not building cliffs anymore….

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 10:46:50

Hey dude — how’s it going? You must be making loads of dough, or else I am sure we would hear from you more often :-)

 
 
Comment by Muggy
2009-10-18 09:03:02

BTW, I have seen a few crazy things in my life, but every time I drive by Ritchie Bros. off I-4 I am in complete awe. It’s hard to fathom the sheer enormity of that operation and I am always gazing at the rows of cranes and dumptrucks. The only thing I think that would be larger in scope is military hardware at a base.

As soon as my littleman figures out that construction gear is cool, this will be a field trip for sure.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2009-10-18 09:17:03

” Top 5 reasons the recession blindsided forecasters

5. Bad assumption: Housing prices may stall but will never drop dramatically.

4. Smugness: Many held cultlike belief that latest economic models are so clever they would anticipate and avoid severe downturns.

3. Deification of Alan Greenspan: Federal Reserve chairman from 1987 to 2006 convinced too many of us that free markets would correct big problems on their own.

2. Go-along, get-along forecasting: Too many economists and business experts work for big corporations and are too eager to project a sunny outlook that everyone wants to hear.

1. Bamboozled by Wall Street: Too many economists viewed Wall Street alchemy — from securitizing the nation’s mortgages to concocting obscure derivative investments — as a modern marvel when, unchecked, it became a flawed, high-risk gamble.”

These guys weren’t economists, IMO, but rather cheerleaders. When any profession engages in booster-ism, what difference does it make what degree they hold? Why don’t we just say they stopped being economists and sold out completely? Let’s call them sell-out hacks! And while we’re at it, why not mention people that supposedly “got it right”, and then sold out, like Shiller? A “hack that HAD it right”?

BTW, I’m glad to see the SPT do a write up like this, but it should be noted that in 2006 I had to ban the Times IP because some troll(s) at the office over there wouldn’t stop harrassing this blog. This was actually the only media IP I ever banned.

Comment by Muggy
2009-10-18 09:26:32

“This was actually the only media IP I ever banned.”

I’m Tampa holds a special place in your heart, Lol..

I’m guessing it was Thorner. He’s real good with the rear-view mirror approach.

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-10-18 09:40:36

I really liked both the SPT and Tampabay.com’s reporting, especially that one female reporter whose name escapes me. BTW, the reason I stopped using her articles is I couldn’t get the site to load in my browser anymore.

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Comment by Muggy
2009-10-18 09:47:18

FWIW, tampabay dot com is the online home of SP Times (it also hosts all of the other publications related to SP Times.

One of my friends (who works for a professional trade mag (and his wife works for WSJ)) was stunned by SP Times when he visited me last spring. His opinion was that they are one of the few ‘old school’ newspapers left and was surprised at how much of their content is created by their own staff writers, and not AP wire.

I love their human interest and old Florida stories.

 
 
Comment by Kirisdad
2009-10-19 05:38:27

Thorner bought a house at the top of the market (2005) so he had a vested interest in keeping people optimistic. He was honest about it and does present both sides on his blog. I admire him for that.

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Comment by palmetto
2009-10-18 10:02:53

The Amazing Zandi phenomenon is just mind-boggling. First, he works as an eCONomist for a an institution that failed miserably but for the bailouts (Wachovia), sandbagging them with all sorts of false data. THEN he jumps ship to one of the WORST disseminators of bum steers EVER, MoodysEconomy.com. And then the next thing you know, he’s all over the media and on C-SPAN and testifying before CONgress. And have you ever noticed his attitude? A sanctimonious prick if I ever saw one. What is it with these guys, anyway? They have a permanent look on their face as if they ate a lemon and smelled sh*t at the same time.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 10:50:19

“Deification of Alan Greenspan”

That is a strange spelling of defecation.

 
Comment by Left LA
2009-10-18 10:51:46

3. Deification of Alan Greenspan: Federal Reserve chairman from 1987 to 2006 convinced too many of us that free markets would correct big problems on their own.

Free markets? Correct on their own?

We have not had proper free markets in this country for several decades. Instead, we have had bone-headed Keynesians such as Greenspan and Bernanke constantly manipulating the market resulting in unintended consequences even more potent that the original problem.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 10:52:23

“When any profession engages in booster-ism, what difference does it make what degree they hold?”

Boosterism by some of its top practitioners doesn’t exactly help the economics profession maintain its carefully-honed image as a branch of physics.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-18 11:02:34

“…the economics profession maintain its carefully-honed image as a branch of psychics”

Is that what they mean by “forward looking…” ;-)

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Comment by mikey
2009-10-18 12:26:38

“These guys weren’t economists, IMO, but rather cheerleaders. When any profession engages in booster-ism, what difference does it make what degree they hold? Why don’t we just say they stopped being economists and sold out completely.”

A bunch of idiot cheerleaders, a big bad gang mentality and a lot of arrogance. We’re bad..Charge!

And then the solid brick wall of reality popped up. “Hello!”
:)

Comment by DD
2009-10-18 14:49:32

Group Think.

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Comment by oxide
2009-10-18 17:56:09

“Lastest economic model?”

My butt. What about the earliest economic models? The ones that say “there is no free lunch” and “If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.” ? If people adhered to that, we wouldn’t be in this mess.

 
 
 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-10-18 09:08:19

Hope this doesn’t put them in a bad Moody:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/77244.html

As the housing market collapsed in late 2007, Moody’s Investors Service, whose investment ratings were widely trusted, responded by purging analysts and executives who warned of trouble and promoting those who helped Wall Street plunge the country into its worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

A McClatchy investigation has found that Moody’s punished executives who questioned why the company was risking its reputation by putting its profits ahead of providing trustworthy ratings for investment offerings.

Instead, Moody’s promoted executives who headed its “structured finance” division, which assisted Wall Street in packaging loans into securities for sale to investors. It also stacked its compliance department with the people who awarded the highest ratings to pools of mortgages that soon were downgraded to junk. Such products have another name now: “toxic assets.”

Comment by hip in zilker
2009-10-18 09:22:01

I was just going to post that. Interesting article. And ya gotta love McClatchys - journalists who actually do their jobs.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2009-10-18 09:35:29

Yes, in early 2005 it had become obvious that the ratings agencies had a huge role in leading the system “off the cliff” as was mentioned before. It was very circular;

Wall Street - “these securities are AAA; see, Fitch/Moodys/S&P say so.”

Credit raters: “housing never goes down (we swear), and besides, the government/Fed would never allow such a thing.”

“Deified” Greenspan - “securitization makes the system invulnerable, and houses have never declined nationally, therefore they cannot decline.” (Here’s yet another place where the media blew it too; where were they when this out-of-touch, unelected fool was being “Deified”?)

Lo and behold, they were all wrong. And a question in light of this report from Moody’s is, where the hell is congress and why aren’t these executives being indicted? And also in light of the off-the-cliff economists article above, doesn’t Mark Zandi have zero credibility and deserve to be call the BIGGEST-FREAKING-HACK-ECONOMIST ON THE GLOBE?

Note to DC: please quit listening to these idiots. Oh, and you should all resign in disgrace. That is all…

Comment by Muggy
2009-10-18 09:42:56

“Note to DC: please quit listening to these idiots. Oh, and you should all resign in disgrace. That is all…”

One of my favorite happenings here is when Ben shows a little attitude. :grin:

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 11:18:42

One of my favorite happenings here is when Ben shows a little attitude.

I love that too.
Why, remember that one time? The time Ben exclaimed ‘H.E.- double- toothpicks!’ Just like that!
Boy, what a potty mouth, huh? Ben, do you kiss your mama with that mouth?

Hahahahaah!
*falls off chair laughing *

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Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 09:51:01

Note to DC: please quit listening to these idiots. Oh, and you should all resign in disgrace. That is all…

Wish that would come to pass…

Instead the majority are patting themselves on the back for their brilliant navigation through these treacherous waters, that they never saw coming.

 
 
Comment by DennisN
2009-10-18 10:40:07

This article was on the front page of the Idaho Statesman print edition and I was going to post a link. But you beat me to it.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-10-18 11:27:41

you gotta get up early in the afternoon to beat me
(did you ever eat that boobieburger?)

 
 
 
Comment by Muggy
2009-10-18 09:38:37

I dedicate this link to OlyGal

http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/article1044637.ece

Gettin’ they nails did…

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 09:58:25

Why not stimulator money for lawn mowers and scrapbook store operators, not to mention candle store owners. Of course nail “technicians” are hugely important to society. Without them where would we be?

I’ve cut my own hair, clipped my own nails for over 20 years, and have survived so far.

“More than $2.3 million in federal economic stimulus grants have gone to eight Tampa Bay area cosmetology and massage schools to pay tuition for the hairdressers, masseuses and nail technicians of tomorrow”.

That’s swell news for those who see the beauty trades as a way to gain a firmer footing in the job market. But is there truly demand for more beauty school graduates at bay area salons?

Not really, said Monica Ponce, owner of Muse The Salon in Tampa.

“Instead of encouraging more people to go to beauty schools,” Ponce said, “they should probably help the stylists who are unemployed.”

Comment by palmetto
2009-10-18 10:40:25

More malinvestment. Malinvestment on top of malinvestment. And I hate to say it, but the only way I see this ending is with a complete and utter breakdown that would make the Great Depression look like a walk in the sun on a beautiful spring day.

The massive fraud and malinvestment is almost too mindboggling for me.

 
Comment by wolfgirl
2009-10-18 10:58:59

I’ve used the same stylist for about 10 years, mainly for youngest daughter and son. She cuts his hair to suit him. Anyway, I took him yesterday while he’s home on fall break. When I handed him a $20, he asked if I had $15 instead because he hates to wait for change and usually ends up telling her to “keep the change”. I said, “Amanda’s worth the tip. She always finds the time for you and she cuts your hair the way you like it.” He settled for that. I think she actually charges $14 but they are suppose to be going up sometime soon. I’ve paid the same price the whole time we’ve gone to her. I’m satisfied with the cost of his cut. He goes 4 or 5 times a year, so it isn’t a big deal. I may go every 6 months.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-18 11:33:19

“…I’ve cut my own hair, clipped my own nails for over 20 years, and have survived so far.”

So, you’re apprx 31 years old and you have never been on the cover of People magazine. got it. :-)

 
 
Comment by drumminj
2009-10-18 12:05:19

Gettin’ they nails did

Hah. I was looking for a good place to post this anecdote..I suppose this’ll do.

So my girlfriend convinced me to go get a pedicure with her yesterday..totally not my thing (waste of money IMO), but in the interest of bonding and out of curiosity I went. A few observations…

1) We were the only people in the fancy salon. Absolutely dead on a Saturday, and we were there for about an hour.
2) Boy was that freakin expensive. Do people really spend money having someone massage their feet and push their cuticles back on a regular basis?
3) My toes look pretty with some blue nail polish.

When you think about the other, more productive things one can do with that money, I don’t see how anyone could justify spending cash at a nail salon. But at least I can say that I’ve been.

Comment by mikey
2009-10-18 13:18:16

$2.3 million in federal stimulus money is going to pay for Tampa Bay area beauty school tuition.

Sheesh…no wonder I have problems finding an old PLAIN OLD BARBER to give me a a little boy haircut !

:)

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-10-18 13:28:47

in the interest of bonding

That’s sweet, drummin. I doubt many guys would do that. Bonding is good.

You having a chance to watch what they do in salons may come in handy:
a- Everyone loves a foot rub, especially when things are tough. It’s good to know how to do one well. Any girlfriend or wife will appreciate that.
b- I asked around among friends some time back, and was surprised how many men paint their wife’s toenails. (True not just among American friends, but Middle Eastern friends too.)

Comment by drumminj
2009-10-18 16:02:42

I asked around among friends some time back, and was surprised how many men paint their wife’s toenails.

Interesting. I’m not sure I’d go that far, to be honest. Unless it was a question of me doing it or her paying $30 to have it done at a salon. In that case, I’ll do it for her at half price :) Granted, I probably wouldn’t paint the pretty little flower on her big toe like the woman did yesterday…

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Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 16:55:07

Interesting. I’m not sure I’d go that far, to be honest.

Man, your toenails are freakin’ blue. You’ve ‘gone far’, trust me.
But what color of blue? Robins-egg blue? Navy? Periwinkle?
Those are pretty colors! I approve.
Say, my toenails are colored: ‘Papaya Kiss’. Orangey-pink with sparkles.
You can borrow it, if you want.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 16:56:33

Man, your toenails are freakin’ blue.

I bet cobaltblue is vomiting right now, in fact.
Next thing for you is a Brazilian hot-wax, and I can’t wait to hear the details of THAT spa treatment.
:lol:

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-10-18 17:13:27

why not the full back, sack, and crack?

 
Comment by drumminj
2009-10-18 18:16:35

Man, your toenails are freakin’ blue. You’ve ‘gone far’, trust me.
But what color of blue? Robins-egg blue? Navy? Periwinkle?

I think I’ll just leave it up to the imagination. Going to keep my purty toes to myself, covered by socks. Good thing it’s winter…

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-10-18 20:51:00

drummin,
I think the toenail painting thing kicks in after a few years of having plucked out each others’ splinters, gotten gnats out of each others’ eyes, put eyedrops and eardrops in each other, done emergency button / hem sewing and ironing for each other, etc. After having worked out the division of labor - on any night, the one who cooks doesn’t have to do dishes; the one who does the writing & figuring doesn’t have to deal with the car; the early riser who brings the coffee to sleepyhead gets to lie on the floor while night-owl brings cookies milk nightcap, or whatever.
(Not to mention the big stuff - helping with parent life changes, family illnesses deaths and so on. And kids, for those who have them.)
Blue is good. So is purple. Iridescence is nice, but maybe not for men.
:-D

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-10-18 20:56:01

There may also be sort of an appeal to the man for his steady hand…

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-18 22:03:09

good post HIP.

 
 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-18 15:55:48

drummin to lots of people its a business expense, some its pampering and some its a luxury they can ill afford right now.

Just like a personal trainer…don’t you think Madonna writes it off as a necessary expense in her business?

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 10:08:06

Epicentre contractor files bankruptcy.
WCNC

CHARLOTTE, N.C. — A construction company that didn’t pay subcontractors for work done on the Epicentre has filed Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

Now, hundreds of businesses could be out more than $5 million.

Chapter 7 bankruptcy is a liquidation. Legal experts say Chapter 7 typically means selling assets and using the money to pay its debts

However, Advanced Construction and Consulting’s bankruptcy filing lists no assets to liquidate.

Meanwhile, subcontractors, like Luna Stone, are left without payment.

Luna Stone held a ribbon cutting ceremony Friday, two years after it opened.

“We’re looking at teetering,” said co-owner Scott Codespoti.

The business isn’t sure how long it’ll be around.

“It’s been day to day,” said co-owner Karen Codespoti.

It’s been that way ever since Luna Stone didn’t get paid nearly $40,000 by Advanced Construction and Consulting for installing granite at the Epicentre.

Their company’s name is one of hundreds of businesses owed money by ACC, according to the bankruptcy filing.

“That’s a lot of pages,” Scott Codespoti said while rummaging through the paperwork.

In the filing ACC lists no assets and $5.1 million in liabilities.

“That’s a lot of money,” Codespoti said.

ACC previously said subcontractors would get paid once it got paid $1.8 million from the Epicentre’s developer, Afshin Ghazi.

Ghazi said that money wasn’t owed. ACC filed a lien for it.

A $1.8 million payment would still leave ACC more than $3 million in debt, according to the filing.

“It looks like they were using one job to pay for another job,” Codespoti said.

Ghazi also alleged that’s what ACC did.

Luna Stone’s owners realize they might never get their money.

“Doesn’t seem like anyone is going to get anything from ACC,” Codespoti said.

“I guess that’s the stress of doing business with the wrong people,” Karen Codespoti said.

As far as that ribbon cutting, Karen says why not? Sometimes a party takes the edge off of worrying, which is something she’s been doing for months.

“At least we tried and tried hard,” she said.
Luna Stone is now going after Ghazi to try to get its money.

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 10:11:08

“It looks like they were using one job to pay for another job,” Codespoti said.

LOL! Multiply that by thousands upon thousands! I’ve known many small businesses that operate like that for years on end. Works great until the music stops and the chairs are all gone.

Comment by Muggy
2009-10-18 10:35:24

“We’re looking at teetering,” said co-owner Scott Codespoti.”

Stranger than fiction alert! Paging Dr. Hiassen!

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 11:31:35

I was doing a little “teetering” last night, my brother in-law ran a new batch of shine. Smooooooth! Uncle B’s Caroline Rum, it cures mule lip, or causes it, I’m not sure which.

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Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 13:57:41

AWESOME! Tell us more!

I have a still, but it’s in pieces in my gardening shed. I must figger out all those little fiddley bits one of these days, so I can embark upon a glorious career of bootlegging.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 14:27:54

My brother in-law bought a still some years ago from “Popcorn” Sutton, moonshine legend, in these parts. NPR did a special on him some time ago, he was a well known shiner in the hills of N.C. or was it Va. I forget, anyway my brother in law read up on makin liqueur and set about doing so about 4 week ago.

He decided to go the rum route, we’re sailors and prefer rum. Dark “N” Stormy type. So he set up the rig behind his fancy house on the lake with 50 gallons of dark molasses and what ever else it takes. Began cooking and after the first run which was 180 proof or somewhere near, he ended up with 5 gallons of clear rum, distilled/cut to about 90 proof.

I have to say that it is damn smoooooth don’t have much left from the quart he gave me. It’s legal to have a still, it’s ill- eagle to distill your concoctions into alcohol, that just doesn’t make any sense does it? Screw the revenuers!

Anyway cousin B’s Carolina rum is some good sh!t it’s known to cure…Shyness, Dropsy, Insomnia & Mule lip!

A little dab will do ya!

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 16:58:15

That is a terrific story.
I thank you.

 
Comment by Silverback1011
2009-10-18 17:50:26

Hic-cup. Yep. Good stuff. Yep. Burp. ( Sound of falling over ). Snorrrrre.

 
 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-10-18 10:36:14

Yep…

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-18 11:10:06

“…once it got paid $1.8 million from the Epicentre’s developer, Afshin Ghazi.” ;-)

Hey wmbz, is Afshin Ghazi … an old North Carolina “Founders” family name? :-)

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 10:32:57

Dumb questions of the day:

At what point did Megabank, Inc overthrow the US government? Or did they always run the government, and I am just now awakening from my long torpor to notice?

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 12:27:39

“At what point did Megabank, Inc overthrow the US government? Or did they always run the government, and I am just now awakening from my long torpor to notice”?

“They” have always run the gubmint… He who has the gold makes the rules… Period. Take a gander at the 535 in charge, and follow da money.

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-18 14:56:38

The Match King.

Takeover in the mid, late 1800s definitely by the 1920s.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 10:34:09

If Fast Eddie works for Megabank, Inc, and Megabanks only survive on government handouts, doesn’t that make Fast Eddie a socialist?

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-10-18 16:15:15

You let things get under your skin too easily.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 16:30:13

It depends. If someone says I am a socialist, I want the satisfaction of knowing why, as I think they are way off target. If that bothers you, perhaps your skin is too thin.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-10-18 17:54:24

My skin is not the slightest bit thin. I try to avoid engaging with stubbornly wrong people, and occasionally encourage friends to do the same.

So, step away from the drama.

Get laid. You’ll feel better about the universe.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 18:31:38

Thanks for the suggestions. Seriously!

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-18 19:42:08

Thanks for the suggestions. Seriously!

LOL.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 10:41:12

I looked high and low for an answer to my question in yesterday’s bits bucket about whether the Fed’s “No Megabanker Left Behind” zero interest loans constitute lending discrimination, and I saw no response by Polly or anyone else, so let me rephrase my question in the form of an example:

Suppose the head of some low-income minority household has lost their job, and hence the household is facing foreclosure. They could be rescued with the help of, say, $100,000 in the form of a zero-interest-rate loan from the Fed; in fact, they could pay off their entire mortgage balance with such a loan. Is there a way for this household to apply for a zero-interest-rate loan to pay off their mortgage loan, with a promise to repay the loan when they get back on their feet?

Please explain the difference between this household’s eligibility for zero-interest Fed-funded financing and Megabank, Inc’s eligibility. Is it the fact that this low-income household is not “too-big-to-fail” that makes them not qualify?

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:26:04

Gee whiz, I guess my Megabank/Fed questions must be too hard, because nobody bothers to post an answer, even people who say I am a socialist or a legal ignoramus.

 
Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-18 12:27:22

Yes it does constitute discrimination was the response from my legal eagle wifeee. Can the fed make an argument that it is in the national interest and therefore necessary to prevent a catastrophic failures of our financial intuitions.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:51:07

Please thank your wife. So far as I am aware, the Fed and other private banks are subject to the same laws as everyone else in the USA, especially as regards lending discrimination. How do they dfend off charges that they are “greenlining” Megabank, Inc (or conversely, redlining any would-be borrower at zero percent interest rates who is not deemed “too big to fail”)?

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-10-18 16:24:31

Discrimination is not illegal.

“Parking for Customers only!”

“No shirt, no shoes, no service!”

“ZIRP for Members only!”

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 18:33:31

- Mortgage loans for whites, only.

- Zero-interest loans for Megabanks, only.

I did not mean to suggest all discrimination is illegal, but I am sure the first example above is illegal lending discrimination, and if the second is not, I am interested in knowing why.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-10-18 18:59:18

Cause they own the Federal Reserve Bank! Not you and I. It’s not the property of the citizens of the USA. It is there to make their business more orderly for themselves. We allow this because:

1) banking is a mystery that must be in the hands of the enlightened, which we are not.

2) Sons and Daughters of the Revolution are to be trusted to do the right thing.

3) There’s a bridge in Brooklyn that you should buy.

4) Something about Andrew Jackson. It is confusing to points 1 to 3 above.

5) Kennedy found his own voice, briefly. O’ has not.

6) There were too many beers. Not only in Spain!

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-18 19:43:41

Daughters of the Revolution are to be trusted to do the right thing.

Am one of those.

OMG when did I take the wrong road to financial world control?

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:54:50

“Can the fed make an argument that it is in the national interest and therefore necessary to prevent a catastrophic failures of our financial intuitions.”

I don’t know, but I can make an argument that it is in Megabank, Inc’s interest to precipitate financial crises, say, by having a certain former CEO-turned Treasury Secretary announce on national TV that taxpayers will have to either fork over $700 bn immediately to Megabank, Inc or else the global financial system will be doomed. Once catastrophic failure seems imminent, the usual rules don’t apply, and Megabank, Inc’s looters are free to rape and pillage as they see fit.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 16:22:32

Another question:

As a private bank, is the Fed subject to the provisions of the Sherman Antitrust Act, or does their status as a government-sponsored monopoly somehow exempt them?

I certainly see myriad signs of a coordinated effort to prop up housing prices, which seems anti-competitive, at least according to my untutored reading of the law.

Price Fixing, Bid Rigging, and Market Allocation Schemes:
What They Are and What to Look For

An Antitrust Primer

This primer briefly describes the most common antitrust violations and outlines those conditions and events that indicate anticompetitive collusion.

Introduction(1)

American consumers have the right to expect the benefits of free and open competition — the best goods and services at the lowest prices. Public and private organizations often rely on a competitive bidding process to achieve that end. The competitive process only works, however, when competitors set prices honestly and independently. When competitors collude, prices are inflated and the customer is cheated. Price fixing, bid rigging, and other forms of collusion are illegal and are subject to criminal prosecution by the Antitrust Division of the United States Department of Justice.

Comment by DD
2009-10-18 19:46:45

This primer briefly describes the most common antitrust violations and outlines those conditions and events that indicate anticompetitive collusion.

Introduction(1)

American consumers have the right to expect the benefits of free and open competition — the best goods and services at the lowest prices. Public and private organizations often rely on a competitive bidding process to achieve that end. The competitive process only works, however, when competitors set prices honestly and independently. When competitors collude, prices are inflated and the customer is cheated. Price fixing, bid rigging, and other forms of collusion are illegal and are subject to criminal prosecution by the Antitrust Division of the United States Department of Justice.

That is balanced capitalism. Not the evil out of whack one being practiced now.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 20:43:13

Evil out of whack capitalism must be stopped, before America self destructs.

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Comment by DD
2009-10-18 22:05:03

before America self destructs.

Independent Lens | BUTTE AMERICA | Preview| PBS [HQ]
by PBS (videos)
4:51
You see the world differently when you work underground. That made Butte, Montana different right from the start as immigrants came from around the world to work the mines. But what they blasted out of the 10,000 miles of tunnels was more than just copper. It was the rise of unions and multinational corporations, and the seeds of the current debate over the environment. In this clip, the Granite Mountain mine fire killed 168 miners, sparking a strike. BUTTE, AMERICA premieres Tuesday, October 20 on Independent Lens, a weekly series airing on PBS. Hosted by Maggie Gyllenhaal, the acclaimed series showcases powerful and innovative independent films. Presented by ITVS, Independent Lens is broadcast on PBS stations nationwide. Visit the Web site for more:
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/butte-america

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by oxide
2009-10-18 10:45:50

I need a little advice: I’ll be moving in a month and need housing. (I’m very specific about location.) How safe is it to rent a house a these days? I mean, to start renting a house. On Craigslist, I saw two cute SFH for rent for the same price as apartments, but I’m afraid the house will be foreclosed under me. I also think it’s a red flag when they don’t give the exact address (they don’t want me looking it up on county clerk or even Zillow?). PLus, one of the houses is obviously a failed FB flip.

I’m leaning toward a managed apartment complex for now just to get used to the area. That would give me time to dig deeper.

Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2009-10-18 19:40:19

Be very careful - lots of fake CL ads too with people renting out homes they don’t own and disappearing with deposits.

You must look at a place before you rent it so you will have an address by the time you are making your decision. 1.) Make sure you are talking with a real owner - yes, ask for ID. 2.) Work with a title company to make sure there are no NOD’s, etc. on the property. This doesn’t mean there won’t be in a month but at least knowing that everything is (maybe) current is half the battle. 3.) Be very careful about oversized deposits. 4.) See if you can put in a clause that if you are going to be evicted you do not have to pay rent during your grace period to cover unexpected moving expenses. I think a lot of states now mandate 3 months for tenants? (But of course, there are ways around even that protection so don’t assume you’ll have the three months.)

Each state is different so you’ll have to know the rules in your area. Sorry, I’m terrible about keeping track of who is where and I can’t remember your area. Are there some HBB’ers around? If so, maybe ask them for local advice and referrals to good property managers. Good luck and please note I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice and it may be very bad advice. :D

Comment by DD
2009-10-18 19:50:27

Be very careful - lots of fake CL ads too with people renting out homes they don’t own and disappearing with deposits.

I dont’ know if you guys recall. I posted one to you earlier this summer. I even went by, talked to the gardener, saw that the flyers were in place at the house/4sale sign, and then spoke to my friend who is re. It was genuinely NOT a rental.
I mean, really a 3/3 house with pool, gardener, pool paid for etc for $1,000.
Whew. I suspected as much, but you guys were great and suggested I was correct. This was a scam.

 
Comment by oxide
2009-10-19 05:16:47

Belated thanks, RE bear. Whatever it is, it sounds like it would take a lot more time than I have.

I stopped by one CL house yesterday. The brick looked okay but the windows looked ready to fall out. I’ll stick with something a little more managed.

 
 
 
Comment by DennisN
2009-10-18 10:47:09

Here’s an item for a Sunday morning: oddball strange homes for sale.

http://finance.yahoo.com/loans/article/107967/strange-homes-for-sale?mod=realestate-buy

I wonder whether that “bat cave” house is poised to fall off the cliff in the next LA earthquake.

Red Rock Drive Castle
Phoenix, Ariz.
Listed with Remax/Excalibur

Year Built: 1977
List Price: $3,500,000
Average Listing Price in ZIP Code: $155,000

Talk about overbuilding for your zip code. :lol:

Comment by Silverback1011
2009-10-18 17:53:23

I remember that Castle house from a tv show about “Weird Houses in America.” So they want $ 3.5 m for the dentist’s house, huh ? I’d rather buy a $ 300,000 house and save $ 3.2 m for my old age LOLOL.

 
 
Comment by ann gogh
2009-10-18 10:54:26

Do not rent in an apartment complex!
Or a condo complex unless it’s built like a fortress!

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 10:58:31

Good point. The only time I was ever burglarized in my life was when I lived in an apartment. At another apartment building where I once lived during my single days, the unit next door had the door broken down and the contents cleaned out while the occupants were out of town (I dodged the bullet on that one!).

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 11:05:44

Will the 2010 census attempt to count how many families recently abandoned their homes?

Foreclosures pose challenge, cost to census count

Families who abandon home harder to track, more costly to tally

Associated Press

October 18, 2009

Director Robert Groves said he expects some of the census questionnaires mailed out in 2010 will land at empty homes in areas hard hit by the housing crisis. That means census workers will need to make more door-to-door visits to verify whether anyone lives at these addresses, and that costs more money.

“One absolutely unambiguous impact of the foreclosures is there’s going to be more people knocking on doors. It’s going to be more expensive to do that,” Groves told reporters during a visit to Los Angeles.

Groves said census workers will need to focus on reaching out to families that have doubled up with relatives until they can get back on their feet. He said many may believe their housing situations are only temporary, but they need to be counted wherever they are living next spring.

He also said census workers are paying extra attention to counting the ranks of the newly homeless, such as previously upper-middle-class families hit by the recession.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 11:12:55

This was posted some year(s)? back on this blog, seems appropriate for a Sunday afternoon.
P.S. Very cool here in S.Carolina today, low tonight 38, damn cold for us, this time of year.

From Sterling Hayden’s autobiography Wanderer published in 1963, as cited in Wikipedia:

To be truly challenging, a voyage, like a life, must rest on a firm foundation of financial unrest. Otherwise, you are doomed to a routine traverse, the kind known to yachtsmen who play with their boats at sea… cruising, it is called. Voyaging belongs to seamen, and to the wanderers of the world who cannot, or will not, fit in. If you are contemplating a voyage and you have the means, abandon the venture until your fortunes change. Only then will you know what the sea is all about. I’ve always wanted to sail to the south seas, but I can’t afford it.” What these men can’t afford is not to go. They are enmeshed in the cancerous discipline of security. And in the worship of security we fling our lives beneath the wheels of routine - and before we know it our lives are gone. What does a man need - really need? A few pounds of food each day, heat and shelter, six feet to lie down in - and some form of working activity that will yield a sense of accomplishment. That’s all - in the material sense, and we know it. But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade. The years thunder by, The dreams of youth grow dim where they lie caked in dust on the shelves of patience. Before we know it, the tomb is sealed. Where, then, lies the answer? In choice. Which shall it be: bankruptcy of purse or bankruptcy of life?

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:19:01

“But we are brainwashed by our economic system until we end up in a tomb beneath a pyramid of time payments, mortgages, preposterous gadgetry, playthings that divert our attention for the sheer idiocy of the charade.”

One benefit of the so-called ‘mortgage crisis’: It has recently become more difficult for the typical US household to enmesh themselves in a debt trap.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-10-18 16:37:14

I blew the dust off my shelves of patience this summer.

I suggest that you do not have to be bankrupt to “voyage”. You simply need to let go the lines.

Comment by Muggy
2009-10-18 17:04:27

“You simply need to let go the lines.”

Or be a teacher and marry a teacher — then you can spend every summer getting lost. I think 6-8 weeks is enough time to “find myself” every year.

Paging Temp.

 
Comment by socaljettech
2009-10-18 21:25:45

“You simply need to let go the lines”

It helps if that line isn’t attached to an “anchor” like a house you can’t afford…

but I’m just a bitter renter (that loves to travel and can afford to..)

 
 
Comment by socaljettech
2009-10-18 21:30:19

Thanks WMBZ-great post- I wonder what Mr Hayden would say of the idiotic charade we live in today? We have taken that game to a new level for sure..
I will add this book to my list of must reads- sounds like a very sensible, well rooted individual!!

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 11:16:34

20k more job cuts at steelmaker

BERLIN - GERMAN steelmaker ThyssenKrupp will cut up to 20,000 more jobs in the next fiscal year after already eliminating 12,000 positions due to the financial crisis, a report said on Saturday.

‘Through disinvestments and restructuring, the company’s personnel will in the next fiscal year be reduced again by 15,000 to 20,000 positions,’ ThyssenKrupp chief Ekkehard Schulz told the daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.

Most of the cuts will come from the sale of some branches of the group.

But between 2,000 and 2,500 jobs will also be eliminated from its administration in Germany and abroad, Mr Schulz said.

ThyssenKrupp cut 12,000 jobs in Germany, France, Britain and Romania in the 2008-2009 fiscal year which ended in September.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 11:38:28

Oct. 18, 2009,
Positive news expected in housing reports

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The U.S. housing market is coming off of its worst downturn in more than 60 years, boosted by a combination of market forces and government assistance, economists say.

Major housing indicators should rise again in September, according to a survey of top economic forecasters ahead of a relatively light week for economic data. Data on housing will dominate the headlines this coming week.

“We expect to see some positive news” on the housing market, wrote economists Brian Bethune and Nigel Gault of IHS Global Insight.

The turnaround in housing has been real. Since January, sales of existing homes are up 14% from the bottom and have risen in five of seven months and Since January, housing starts are up 23% and starts of single-family home are up 34%.

Some economists warn that new construction may weaken again, reflecting uncertainty about both the strength of underlying demand, and the impending expiration of Washington’s first-time home-buyer tax credit at the end of November.

The tax credit has enlivened the market, but the gains have been largely at the bottom end, where first-time buyers can afford to buy. The National Association of Realtors figures the credit will boost sales by about 350,000, while the homebuilders’ group thinks the net number of additional purchases will be 200,000.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:15:30

“Major housing indicators should rise again in September, according to a survey of top economic forecasters ahead of a relatively light week for economic data.”

These guys have been so uncannily accurate in their forecasts over the past several years, I guess you could bank on it that they will be right on this one, too?

Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-10-18 17:39:46

With Bloomberg promoting these types of stories, we must be at or near the middle crest in the “W” pattern stock and housing crash. Only question is whether the next down bottoms-out below or above first bottom.

London Agents ‘Sold Out’ as Home Asking Prices Jump to Record

By Svenja O’Donnell

Oct. 19 (Bloomberg) — London home sellers raised asking prices to a record high this month and led gains across the U.K. as the shortage of properties for sale intensified, Rightmove Plc said.

The average cost of a home in the capital rose 6.5 percent, the most since records began in 2002, to 416,157 pounds ($680,000), the owner of the U.K.’s biggest residential property Web site said today in a statement. Prices climbed 2.8 percent across Britain as transaction levels dropped by half from 2007.

“Some agents are virtually ‘sold out’ and are reporting available stock levels in single figures,” Miles Shipside, commercial director of Rightmove, said in the statement. “In this sort of market sellers quite naturally will be tempted to test buyer appetite at a higher figure.”

Rest at Bloomberg dot com page 1

 
 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-18 12:05:47

Mr. Bear, I lost track…how many ground zeros & canary’s can there be without getting the fairytale message confused? ;-)

“Welcome to Ground Zero,” said Melinda Opperman, vice president at the Riverside branch of Springboard, a nonprofit counseling group that helps homeowners avoid foreclosure. “This is where the canary died.”

In wake of housing crisis, what lessons learned?:

http://www.reuters.com/article/gc03/idUSTRE59F3LJ20091016

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:30:42

I am sure Riverside is a pretty good candidate for either ground zero or dead canary, but what about Sacramento, Modesto, Bakersfield, Atlanta, Cape Coral, Los Angeles, Los Vegas, Phoenix, St Petersburg, Detroit, Chicago, Bend OR, Miami, Orlando, (sorry, I have run out of energy to keep typing)…?

Comment by mikey
2009-10-18 13:55:58

PB

You forgot Victorville…and Poland. Don’t forget Victorville and POLAND !!

;)

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 16:05:42

Well, I suppose we could add Spain, England, Australia, China and Canada to the list if you want to go to the country level.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 16:10:01

So far as I am aware, the Fed has never even acknowledged there was a US housing bubble just yet, even as Canadian economists start to fret that the Canadian housing market bubble will burst just as the US bubble did.

Canada’s housing bubble could soon burst: Merrill Lynch

Canadian households are nearing the financial tipping point that Americans reached two years ago, which plunged their housing market into the deepest recession since the Great Depression, a senior Bay Street economist warned Wednesday.

By Canwest News Service

OTTAWA - Canadian households are nearing the financial tipping point that Americans reached two years ago, which plunged their housing market into the deepest recession since the Great Depression, a senior Bay Street economist warned Wednesday.

It may just be a matter of time before the Canadian housing market tanks like the U.S. market did, Merrill Lynch Canada economist David Wolf said, warning that Canadian households are now nearly as overextended as households in the U.S., and even more so than those in Britain, prior to the bursting of the housing market bubbles in those countries.

“What worries us is that Canadian households have been running a larger financial deficit than households in either the U.S. or the U.K.,” Wolf said in a commentary, noting that in 2007 Canadian household net borrowing amounted to 6.3 per cent of disposable income, which was higher than in Britain and not far off the seven per cent peak in the U.S. in 2005, prior to the bursting of that country’s housing bubble.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Bill In Los Angeles
2009-10-18 12:07:09

It’s interesting the predictions from the Spaniard. Yes, worldwide the stock market may take a huge hit, which would make the 2008 to March 2009 crash look like a dent.

I think a 60% drop in stock indices in some developed nations may happen. A Dow 4,000, say. In such a case, I am taking a gamble that gold will once again perform the way it did from September 2008 to April 2009. That is, end the period higher than at the beginning, while stocks end the period lower than at the beginning.

Gold is insurance against economic crises. And if the people are right about their predictions, the deeper the crisis, the higher gold will go. If the people are wrong and some unforeseen positive event occurs to help the stock market, my 56% allocation in aggressive growth stock funds will do better than my 11% allocation in gold.

The worst thing I can do is to change my investment style everytime some nervous nellie pessimist or pump and dump optimist make a prediction of either extreme. A 56/11/33 stocks/gold/government securities allocation is perfect for me.

These are interesting times.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:16:32

I frankly don’t see why the Fed and their Megabanking minions (or is it the other way around) could not potentially prop up the stock market indefinitely, if that is what they chose to do?

Comment by Bill In Los Angeles
2009-10-18 12:28:12

Agreed, but some unforeseen positive event could prop up the stock market.

1) Nuclear Fusion
2) Revolution against Islamic theocracy in Iran
3) N. Korea goes capitalist and unifies with S. Korea
4) Cuba goes capitalist

I don’t bet on any of these four. I just remember reading about “Limits to Growth” by the Club of Rome in the 1970s. Very dire predictions. Their predictions did not see energy costs going down, for one thing. 26 years of stock market boom followed the Club of Rome and the Nuclear winter crowd.

Pessimism is a train on a railroad track that assumes there will be no switches thrown to alter its route.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:48:06

I agree with you, especially on the folly of the Club of Rome analysts. But to their credit, they sold lots of books and attracted lots of followers to their “Club” — perhaps that was more important than being right (kinda like religion in that respect)…

Generally speaking, whatever will lead us out of today’s “unsolvable” problems is unforeseeable, but with many bright minds around the globe looking for answers, it is important to stay optimistic.

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Comment by Nudge
2009-10-18 15:03:12

China went all capitalist-y on us, but did it make them any less Chinese or less communistic?

Why should we expect different out of Cuba?

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 15:24:54

5) Current anticompetitive, cartel-dominated US banking system gets replaced with a competitive banking system which supports and serves economic growth rather than permanently crippling it.

Big Wall Street bonuses “offensive”: Obama aide
Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:05pm EDT

By Caren Bohan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A top White House aide lashed out on Sunday at Wall Street firms that are handing out huge bonuses while the rest of the economy struggles and small businesses cannot create jobs because of a lack of credit.

Highlighting a disconnect between Wall Street and Main Street that has caught the attention of the Obama administration, Goldman Sachs Group Inc’s was on a pace to hand out more than $20 billion in bonuses, which could make this year a record.

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Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-18 16:03:13

Iran wants full diplomatic relations with Israel…and declares the holocaust to have happened.

dow up 2500 points in one day

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 16:56:47

Virtually every unsolvable problem we’ve faced in the past has turned out to be quite solvable, and the script has nearly always been the same: A band of clever, motivated people—scientists usually—find an answer. With polio, it was the creation of a vaccine. If the best minds in the world focus their attention on global warming, hopefully we can handle that, too.

Yes, it is an incredibly large and challenging problem. But, as history has shown us again and again, human ingenuity is bound to be even larger.

Adapted from “SuperFreakonomics: Global Cooling, Patriotic Prostitutes, and Why Suicide Bombers Should Buy Life Insurance,” by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner, 2009. To be published by William Morrow.

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Comment by In Montana
2009-10-19 06:33:24

still waiting on that AIDS vaccine….

 
 
 
Comment by Rancher
2009-10-18 12:43:05

May I paraphrase that remark?

“Never bet against the house”

 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-10-18 17:50:45

Even with the amazing stock market rise, and even with treasury rate of return near zero for shorter term bills, Treasuries are receiving accelerating global demand. Nobody believes recovery will last.

Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-10-18 17:51:52

Treasuries Show No Lost Appetite With Zero Dollar Returns
Bloomberg dot com

By Liz Capo McCormick and Daniel Kruger

Oct. 19 (Bloomberg) — Investors can’t get enough Treasuries even as the U.S. budget deficit climbs beyond $1 trillion, the government sells a record amount of debt and the dollar declines to the weakest level since August 2008.

Foreign buyers increased their holdings for a fourth consecutive month in August, to an all-time high of $3.45 trillion, according to Treasury Department data released Oct. 16. U.S. demand is being spurred by a rising savings rate and concern the economic recovery may falter. Fixed-income funds have attracted 18 times more money than stock funds this year, according to data compiled by Morningstar Inc. and Bloomberg.

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Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 12:22:59

~AP The 99 bank failures this year compare with 25 last year and three in 2007. It’s the highest number in a year since 1992 during the savings-and-loan crisis, when 120 institutions collapsed.

The most severe financial crisis since the 1930s has hit banks large and small. With unemployment rising, consumer spending slack and businesses shuttered, experts say up to 400 more banks could fail in the next couple of years.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 12:45:03

Just for grins, I fit a quadratic trend to the logs of them three data points and extrapolated three years into the future:

Year n
2007 3
2008 25
2009 100
2010 192
2011 177
2012 78

At the recent explosive growth in bank failures, 2010 would nearly double the level for 2009 (I conservatively assumed only one more bank failure would occur through year-end…).

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 12:49:41

A comment in the Chinese press: “Obviously, foreign investors are not ATMs without limit. No wonder many experts worry that the [U.S.] debt bubble will be a greater crisis some day in the future.”

~ Xinhua~ writers Liu Lina, Liu Hong

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 13:02:42

The onset of the so-called Credit Crunch was in August 2007. It has already lasted for 26 months and still seems to be going strong. Does anyone have a realistic prediction of how much longer this will continue? And what would constitute a sign it is ending? I am thinking capitulation in the housing market would be a good indicator, but I am not sure when that will come about, either.

Finance and Economics

Credit in America
Slim pickings, no appetite

Oct 15th 2009 | NEW YORK
From The Economist print edition
Constrained lenders and wary borrowers explain falling levels of credit

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 19:02:34

10/16/2009

Lenders Gloomy as Credit Crunch Drags On

More than two years into the credit crunch, commercial real estate lenders still see no easy way out.

Property prices have yet to hit bottom, leaving both owners and lenders in disarray. The fresh capital pouring into the sector is dwarfed by the amount of debt scheduled to mature over the next few years. And several factors are combining to slow the massive wave of deleveraging necessary for the re-emergence of a sustainable lending market.

The upshot: Despite the emergence of a few “green shoots,” the commercial mortgage market still has at least a couple of years of deep pain ahead.

That’s the consensus of a dozen debt-market pros interviewed by Commercial Mortgage Alert. While there was some disagreement on just how rough the road would be, most saw significant obstacles to a return of active originations. All agreed that the coming challenges would unfold slowly over several years, rather than result in a sudden meltdown. Likewise, they felt that originations would re-emerge slowly, as market-clearing prices are established across asset types and as worked-out properties qualify for loans in the new world of strict underwriting.

The main concern for the next few years is the overhang of maturing debt that won’t qualify for refinancing. “I think this is a much bigger problem than people realize,” said Jack Taylor, a managing director of Prudential Real Estate Investors. “The magnitude is unprecedented. It’s much larger than we experienced either in volume or systemically in the RTC days.”

“It will be a long, slow slog out of this,” agreed David Rodgers, a principal at advisory firm Park Bridge Financial of New York and a former executive in Merrill Lynch’s commercial mortgage group. “The shoes will drop for years to come.”

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 13:07:59

Harvard’s Bet on Interest Rate Rise Cost $500 Million to Exit.

(Bloomberg) — Harvard University’s failed bet that interest rates would rise cost the world’s richest school at least $500 million in payments to escape derivatives that backfired.

Harvard paid $497.6 million to investment banks during the fiscal year ended June 30 to get out of $1.1 billion of interest-rate swaps intended to hedge variable-rate debt for capital projects, the school’s annual report said. The university in Cambridge, Massachusetts, said it also agreed to pay $425 million over 30 to 40 years to offset an additional $764 million in swaps.

The transactions began losing value last year as central banks slashed benchmark lending rates, forcing the university to post collateral with lenders, said Daniel Shore, Harvard’s chief financial officer. Some agreements require that the parties post collateral if there are significant changes in interest rates.

“When we went into the fall, we had some serious liquidity management issues we were dealing with and the collateral postings on the swaps was one,” Shore said in an interview yesterday. “In evaluating our liquidity position, we wanted to get some stability and some safety.”

Harvard sold $2.5 billion in bonds in the fiscal year, in part to pay for the swap exit, even as the school’s endowment recorded its biggest loss in 40 years, the report released yesterday said. This is the first time the university has detailed the cost of exiting its swaps.

Further Pressure

“Substantial losses” in Harvard’s General Operating Account, a pool of cash from which bills are paid, further put pressure on the school, the report said. The net asset value of the account fell to $3.7 billion from $6.6 billion during the fiscal year, according to the report.

 
Comment by wmbz
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 15:12:10

It reminds me of a banker in a drunken stupor after a debt binge getting a bailout in order to try the hair-of-the-dog hangover cure…

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 13:17:28

AURORA, Ontario, Oct. 16 (UPI) — A municipality north of Toronto is trying to accommodate Asian residents by letting them remove “unlucky” numbers from their street addresses.

The city council of Aurora, Ontario, voted this week to alter street addresses where possible to appease people from Eastern Asia who dislike the number four, the Toronto Star reported.

Marco Ramunno, the city’s director of planning and development services, told the newspaper the number four “has a bad luck connotation for people from East Asia,” and it was decided to allow renumbering of streets where there is a wide enough numbering gap.

The Star said in some Asian languages, the number four sounds like the word “death.” The number 14 is also considered unlucky by Cantonese-speaking Chinese, the report said.

As for the Western superstition of the number 13 being unlucky, Aurora eliminated it from addresses years ago, Ramunno said.

Ironically, the central telephone number for Aurora’s regional government ends with 4444, the Star said.

Comment by DennisN
2009-10-18 15:18:02

How sick.

I once had a CA plate HYK 666. I loved it. I told evangelicals that the HYK stood for “Hell’s Young Kid”. ;)

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-18 17:08:05

This is last month, right? When the LDS missionaries banged on your door.
Come on, admit it. :)

Comment by DennisN
2009-10-18 18:51:07

No that plate went with my 1983 Jetta, which I sold in 1993.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 19:01:06

Professor Bear: “Does your church think it is a sin to tell a lie?”

LDS Missionaries: “Yes.”

Professor Bear: “Then I cannot join, because I don’t know your church is true, and I would be lying if I had to say I did.”

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 13:22:53

They should try this in the D.C. cesspool, in the spirit of ‘unity’. May be a vast out break of pig flu though.

SARAJEVO, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Oct. 16 (UPI) — The head coach of Bosnia-Herzegovina’s national soccer team said he is boosting team unity by having players kiss one another on the lips.

Miroslav Ciro Blazevic wrote in a column on a Croatian news Web site that team bonding is an important part of his World Cup victory strategy, The Daily Telegraph reported Friday.

“I take two of my players and tell them, ‘Love him! Kiss him!’ and he kisses him,” Blazevic wrote. “I tell them they have to kiss each other straight to the lips.”

“The secret of my success is in a unity of a squad. You can’t do anything without an atmosphere in a team,” the coach wrote.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 13:31:48

The kook wing of the dim party is none to pleased… These folks are great entertainment.The perma-pissed are a hoot.

Huffington calls for Biden to resign over Afghan troop build up.

As the war effort in Afghanistan faces increased resistance from the Taliban on the ground and from many in the U.S. Congress, political news personality Arianna Huffington suggests Biden should resign if Obama agrees to more troops.

Biden’s position has caught the attention of the more liberal wings of the Democratic party - who outright oppose the conflict. Political news personality Arianna Huffington used her blog site to suggest that Biden resign from his position should the request for additional troops in Afghanistan go through.
Huffington cites a Newsweek piece in demonstrating how Biden compares the war in Afghanistan to the conflict in Pakistan, drawing an uneven line among U.S. investments in both challenges.

Comment by CentralCoastDude
2009-10-18 16:48:34

I love reading Huff, like watching John Stewart, gives me hope there are some very smart Americans still out there. (although 67% are overweight).

Comment by DD
2009-10-18 19:57:25

smart Americans still out there. (although 67% are overweight).

Raising hand. But working on the latter, and the former is always improving. 138 and rising. Shhh lets keep that one a secret.lol

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-18 15:21:53

See how easy it is, what’s with the global warming whiners…

Moscow Mayor Promises a Winter Without Snow
Time.com

Pigs still can’t fly, but this winter, the mayor of Moscow promises to keep it from snowing. For just a few million dollars, the mayor’s office will hire the Russian Air Force to spray a fine chemical mist over the clouds before they reach the capital, forcing them to dump their snow outside the city. Authorities say this will be a boon for Moscow, which is typically covered with a blanket of snow from November to March. Road crews won’t need to constantly clear the streets, and traffic - and quality of life - will undoubtedly improve.

The idea came from Mayor Yury Luzhkov, who is no stranger to playing God. In 2002, he spearheaded a project to reverse the flow of the vast River Ob through Siberia to help irrigate the country’s parched Central Asian neighbors. Although that idea hasn’t exactly turned out as planned - scientists have said it’s not feasible - this time, Luzhkov says, there’s no way he can fail.
Controlling the weather in Moscow is nothing new, he says. Ahead of the two main holidays celebrated in the city each year - Victory Day in May and City Day in September - the often cash-strapped air force is paid to make sure that it doesn’t, well, rain on the parades. With a city budget of $40 billion a year (larger than New York City’s budget), Moscow can easily afford the $2-3 million price tag to keep the skies blue as spectators watch the tanks and rocket launchers roll along Red Square. Now there’s a new challenge for the air force: Moscow’s notorious blizzards.

“You know how every year on City Day and Victory Day we create the weather?” Luzhkov asked a group of farmers outside Moscow in September, according to Russian media reports. “Well, we should do the same with the snow! Then outside Moscow there will be more moisture, a bigger harvest, while for us it won’t snow as much. It will make financial sense.”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 16:14:09

It sounds like the Bank of Canada is in the bubble reflation business, too. Are they a private bank, like the Fed, or a government entity? I am wondering if Canada has a federal law against price fixing like the US does?

House market bubble could bring quick end to low interest rates
By Julian Beltrame (CP) – Oct 7, 2009

OTTAWA — The Bank of Canada’s efforts to spark a rebound in the domestic housing market may be working too well.

A new TD Bank report shows house sales and prices have defied gravity during the severe economic recession and are poised to end 2009 at higher levels than they were before the downturn hit Canada last fall.

Economists credit the central bank’s policy of slashing interest rates the past year with reviving a dormant housing market - perhaps too much, too fast - leading to speculation that bank governor Mark Carney may have to reverse course and raise rates earlier than expected.

“We’re not calling what we see presently a housing asset bubble,” says TD economist Grant Bishop,

“We think it will moderate, but should it fail to moderate, it will no doubt be concerning to the bank.”

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 18:38:17

“We’re not calling what we see presently a housing asset bubble,”

Denial is a primary symptom of both housing bubbles and heart attacks.

And it appears the fellow who penned the article is calling it a house bubble (not a housing bubble).

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 18:43:33

How can a bank which has lost multiple billions of dollars possibly afford to pay bonuses and also uphold their fiduciary duties to shareholders? I am really missing this guy’s point.

The Financial Times
Barclays chief warns on regulation
By Patrick Jenkins, Banking Editor

Published: October 18 2009 23:14 | Last updated: October 18 2009 23:14

The chairman of Barclays has warned that Britain’s banks will be damaged if regulators are too rigorous in their implementation of a global crackdown on bonuses and capital requirements while other nations, such as the US, are lax.

“There is the real risk of regulatory arbitrage,” Marcus Agius said in a video interview as part of the Financial Times’s new series The Future of Finance.

“The same principles will apply in different ways in different capital markets with different outcomes. This is a global financial system. It is fungible. So I am very concerned there should be a level playing field.”

In particular, Mr Agius said, the communiqué from last month’s G20 meeting, ruling that the bulk of bonuses should be deferred over three years rather than paid upfront, was “susceptible to different interpretations . . . Regulatory gaming certainly wouldn’t be good for the City of London.”

The US Federal Reserve has indicated it sees one G20 recommendation – that 40-60 per cent of bonuses should be deferred – as an “example” rather than a binding proportion.

Mr Agius’s warning comes as banks that have prospered recently gear up to pay near-record bonuses for this year. Goldman Sachs last week said it was on track to pay its staff an average of nearly $700,000 (£428,000).

Mr Agius warned regulators not to impose excessive additional capital requirements. “As long as the banks are not nationalised, and are operated as commercial companies, they have to generate enough returns to satisfy their shareholders. . . The next time the banking system wants capital, it won’t be supplied [if] the potential new investors [don’t] see the [attraction],” he said. “One of the other consequences will be that credit will become more expensive and [that] is not conducive to . . . a return to economic growth around the world.”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-18 21:21:09

* OCTOBER 18, 2009

Eighty Years After the Great Crash — ‘Is It the ’30s Again?’

By BRETT ARENDS and DAVE KANSAS
[Sunday Journal WSJ dot com]

Editor’s Note: It was the worst thing to happen to the U.S. since Fort Sumter. October, 1929. Wall Street crashed and helped drive the country into the Great Depression—a deep economic and spiritual wound that has afflicted three generations of Americans. Eighty years later, as the country struggles through the harsh aftermath of another crash, two Sunday Journal contributors mark a grim anniversary and weigh the question that haunts everyone: “Is this the 1930s all over again?”

Markets and the economy look less cataclysmic than they did earlier this year. And so they should, following a torrent of monetary easing.

But that doesn’t mean happy days are here again.

If you want a second opinion, don’t look at the Dow Jones Industrial Average. Look at three other markets: bonds, gold and the dollar. All of them are flashing amber, or red.

Take the bond market: Yields on U.S. Treasurys have collapsed to historic lows. The 30-year bond is yielding just over 4.2%, well below long-term averages. This is usually a strong signal of tougher times ahead. It’s almost impossible to reconcile this with the stock market’s sunny vision of a swift economic rebound.

Meanwhile, the dollar has been slumping on world markets. It has been the cornerstone of the global economy for nearly a century, but is quickly losing its credibility. No wonder gold, in its stead, has been surging to new highs.

These ominous signs should hardly surprise us. Despite the cheerleading in Washington and on Wall Street, we have barely begun to address the fundamental problems that led to the crisis in the first place.

Americans (along with many other Westerners) are hocked up to the eyeballs. When compared with the size of the economy, U.S. debt levels are off the charts.

That’s true for government, corporations and ordinary families. Thirty years ago, the average U.S. household had debts equivalent to about 32 weeks’ income. Today it’s 59 weeks.

That’s why comparisons with previous recessions ring so hollow. The U.S. came out of the slumps in the early 1980s and early 1990s with much stronger balance sheets. Households and corporations had much greater ability to borrow and spend.

The last time the economy tried to climb out of a deep slump while already this deeply in debt was…the 1930s.

Comment by DD
2009-10-18 22:06:03

Independent Lens | BUTTE AMERICA | Preview| PBS [HQ]
by PBS (videos)
4:51
You see the world differently when you work underground. That made Butte, Montana different right from the start as immigrants came from around the world to work the mines. But what they blasted out of the 10,000 miles of tunnels was more than just copper. It was the rise of unions and multinational corporations, and the seeds of the current debate over the environment. In this clip, the Granite Mountain mine fire killed 168 miners, sparking a strike. BUTTE, AMERICA premieres Tuesday, October 20 on Independent Lens, a weekly series airing on PBS. Hosted by Maggie Gyllenhaal, the acclaimed series showcases powerful and innovative independent films. Presented by ITVS, Independent Lens is broadcast on PBS stations nationwide. Visit the Web site for more:
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/butte-america

 
 
Comment by DD
2009-10-18 22:08:36

BUTTE AMERICA
4:51
In this clip, the Granite Mountain mine fire killed 168 miners, sparking a strike. BUTTE, AMERICA premieres Tuesday, October 20 PBS. Hosted by Maggie Gyllenhaal, t
http:SLASHSLASHwwwDOTpbsDOTorgSLASHindependentlensSLASHbutte-america

Comment by DD
2009-10-18 22:09:48

1917-1920 gov brought in hundreds of troops.-

Largest population of Irish anywhere save for actually IN Ireland.

 
 
Comment by cougar91
2009-10-19 11:41:33

The good professor is back to being bear. Maybe he should just pick one side and stick to it?

Professor Robert Shiller: “Irrational exuberance is back in both the Stock and Housing market”

Posted Oct 19, 2009 12:30pm

Are we on track for a repeat of irrational exuberance?

With the stock market up more than 50% since March and the Standard & Poor’s Case/Shiller Index on the rise for the last three months, it’s a worry, says Yale Professor Robert Shiller. “Somehow we got into this really speculative mentality and I don’t think we’re out of it yet.”
Given the current economic environment, “these booms [in the housing and stock markets] that we’re seeing now can’t be trusted to continue,” Shiller tells Tech Ticker in the accompanying video, taped at last week’s Buttonwood Gathering. (Click here for part one of the interview.)

The author of Irrational Exuberance and Animal Spirits characterizes the stock market rally as an “amazing rebound” without much historic precedence, “you have to go back to the Great Depression to see such a turnaround in the stock market.”

According to his cyclically adjusted P/E valuation model - stock price divided by average 10-year earnings - stocks are overvalued today, but “not massively overvalued.”

The market’s rebound isn’t likely to be derailed by valuation in the short term, Shiller says, but if one looks to the classic bear market rally of 1933-1937 as a guide, stocks may eventually crater as they did then.

 
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-10-19 13:27:28

test

 
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