October 27, 2009

Bits Bucket For October 27, 2009

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341 Comments »

Comment by Rancher
2009-10-27 06:35:45

Good morning everyone. Time for coffee and then
let the stress begin!

Comment by combotechie
2009-10-27 06:41:30

Stress? What’s this stress thingy of which you speak?

Comment by drumminj
2009-10-27 06:44:31

That’s why you add whiskey to the coffee. The stress just melts away….

Comment by combotechie
2009-10-27 06:47:32

Jack Daniels: Breakfast of Champions.

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Comment by Rancher
2009-10-27 06:50:57

Brandy’s better.

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Comment by Jim A.
2009-10-27 07:05:16

Back in college, I discovered that a little Captain Morgan’s in the morning coffee made the commute to campus a bit less stressful. I made a consious decision that this was a BAD thing and never bought any Captain Morgan’s again.

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Comment by Blue Skye
2009-10-27 08:17:39

Grandmother (AKA Nana) put Johnnie Walker in her tea. She lived to 104.

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Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-27 10:14:20

My nana is one of God and Holy Joe’s chosen and therefore never, ever drank ‘Satan’s Nectar’ (aka coffee) or ‘Satan’s Other Nectar’ (aka Johnnie Walker) and she is still going strong and tatting doilies at 93.

To which IIIII respond: A lifetime spent without ANY coffee or alcohol?! Why the f00k bother to live to 93? There’s no point, really.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-27 11:25:56

Because 93 years is a looong time to be thirsty. If I had ever decided to be righteous–which I didn’t; I’m informing you all of this, in case you weren’t aware of it—if IIII had ever decided to be righteous I would have tried to depart this mortal coil early, so I could get to heaven and finally get a decent martini.

 
Comment by DebtinNation
2009-10-27 11:32:13

One of the disadvantages of being self-employed: occasionally having to work in the evening hours.

One of the advantages of being self-employed: having the wife make me a Patrón margarita when I have to work in the evening hours. (Don’t worry, I don’t write technical manuals for surgeons or design aircraft parts).

 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-27 12:06:09

I used to be a huge beer drinker. I LOVED beer. All kinds of beer- stout, wheat, pale ale- especially pale ale. I brewed my own beer at times. I was the ultimate connoisseur. Alas, one evening more than 8 years ago, I had FAR too many of them, and absolutely ruined the following day, too sick to make an engagement that I had looked so forward to in the days preceding. I’ve never had a drink since.

Over the course of the past 8 years, I have accomplished more in my life than the preceding 15 years. Drinking beer and hanging out with friends took A LOT of time, and too much precedence over more important things- a fact I didn’t realize at the time. My life is MUCH richer due to my decision to discontinue drinking. I never went to AA, or anything like that- I didn’t need to- I just made a decision which turned out to be one of the best in my entire life. I think it’s great that people enjoy drinking, I don’t mind it at all. I just know that I’m better off without it.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-10-27 14:25:17

I don’t drink any more.

I don’t drink any less either.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-27 16:26:04

Alas, one evening more than 8 years ago, I had FAR too many of them, and absolutely ruined the following day, too sick to make an engagement that I had looked so forward to in the days preceding.

Moderation in all things, Grizz.
I’ve always thought that it’s only ‘fun’ if you don’t need to do it in order to have fun.
‘It’s fun to have fun, but you have to know how’. (Dr. Seuss)

Over the course of the past 8 years, I have accomplished more in my life than the preceding 15 years.

Like what? You made many beautiful and useful doilies?
;)
Teasing!

Drinking beer and hanging out with friends took A LOT of time, and too much precedence over more important things- a fact I didn’t realize at the time.

I would argue that hanging out with friends, whether or not while drinking beer, is a good use of my time.

I just made a decision which turned out to be one of the best in my entire life. I think it’s great that people enjoy drinking, I don’t mind it at all. I just know that I’m better off without it.

Then everyone wins, baybee! :)

 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-10-27 09:10:26

A wee drop of Baileys or Kahlua is much, much better. Ahhhhh.

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Comment by FB wants a do over
2009-10-27 07:51:14

Suggest everyone stay away from the coffee at Harvard University.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33484904/ns/us_news-life/

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-27 16:29:28

Jeebus! That’s unsettling.

 
 
 
Comment by peter a
2009-10-27 06:41:41

Got Perfect Credit? You Could Be Charged For It!
Bank Of America, Citigroup First To Try Out Idea, Which Will Undoubtedly Alienate Many Who Follow The Rules
http://wcbstv.com/consumer/credit.card.fees.2.1272124.html

I think this will die quickly.

Comment by combotechie
2009-10-27 06:55:43

Cash continues its rule.

Comment by ann gogh
2009-10-27 08:03:44

combo, did you buy any gold or silver yet?

Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-10-27 09:00:48

The ol’ “buy at the top” strategy?

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Comment by combotechie
2009-10-27 17:11:57

“combo, did you buy any gold or silver yet?”

Not only not yet but not ever. I’m still heavily in cash waiting to buy:
1. Quality stocks, offered at
2. Fire sale prices,
3. With the intention they be held forever, or until the fundamentals dictate they be sold.

BTW, outstanding post by Ahansen.

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Comment by packman
2009-10-27 18:05:10

2. Fire sale prices,

Out of curiosity - what’s you’re thinking w/regards to that? Is fire sale below DJI 6500?

 
Comment by combotechie
2009-10-27 19:30:57

IMO fire sale has little to do with an average, more to do with an individual company.

Fire sale to me means low P/E, below book value, high dividend yield relative to the going rate of money, in a company that shows promise of continuing to remain a going concern.

Usually the daily volume of such companies is low, which gives the edge to us small, individual investors.

The book “The Intellegent Investor”, by Benjamin Graham serves as a good read to those interested in this approach.

 
Comment by combotechie
2009-10-27 19:35:09

Woooops: “Intellegent” should be “Intelligent”

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-10-27 19:43:51

two late!

 
Comment by combotechie
2009-10-27 20:01:26

More …

In addition to low P/E, high yield, below book value, look for companies with little or no long-term debt and are not in an industry whereby they have to keep plowing money into the business to keep it afloat.

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-27 22:24:46

Woooops: “Intellegent” should be “Intelligent”

not so much.

LOL j/k!

 
 
 
 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-10-27 07:07:11

There is a big segment of their population that they will have never made money on, which is people who pay their bills on time every month,” said Ben Woolsey, Director of Consumer Research at CreditCards.com. But they still make money on the percentage that they charge the stores.

Comment by GH
2009-10-27 07:39:09

Does anyone have a breakdown of how the transaction fees charged to merchants are broken down? I know there is a transaction fee of 1.5 to 2.5% typically tacked onto retail transactions, of which the actual processor gets a bite, Visa gets a bite and then there is a sophisticated central clearing house which gets a bite, so what does the bank actually end up with. If better than 1% they are technically making a risk free 12% return on loaned money to “deadbeats”.

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 09:13:39

If only they could put everyone out of work so nobody had any money while at the same time keep everything, like housing, unaffordable with various serf-creating programs… Ah, wait - they are already working towards that goal!

Comment by ecofeco
2009-10-27 16:43:16

Remember that CITI memo/study/position paper where they actually thought they could decouple the consumer from the actual consumption and therefore have the perfect economic engine?

No messy labor costs and all profit?

Google it if you don’t remember. No joke.

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Comment by ecofeco
2009-10-27 16:45:47

Remember that CITI study?

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Comment by michael
2009-10-27 07:15:39

“They can either pay that fee or they can close the account, and if they have had the account for a while and they close it, they are potentially going to hurt their credit card score,” said Woolsey.”

i’m ya huckleberry.

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 07:49:11

Yep, They think they have you by the short hairs, and they do to a point. They way the FICO rating system is set up you will have a higher rating with open lines of credit.

180 degrees from the way it once was.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-27 08:16:25

“180 degrees from the way it once was.”

Must have been effected by: “The Law of Unintended Consequences” ;-)

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Comment by Jim A.
2009-10-27 08:22:48

But if you’re paying off your CC every month, do you NEED to obsess over your FICO?

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Comment by packman
2009-10-27 08:32:00

But if you’re paying off your CC every month, do you NEED to obsess over your FICO?

Bingo - more or less.

The only real consideration might be when some such person goes to buy a house, with a mortgage. The FICO has a hand in determining the rate you pay. However I believe it’s a minor factor, or even maybe no factor, unless your FICO is fairly bad; which presumably isn’t the case if you pay off CC every month. I’d be curious to get some else’s take (paging az_lender!!).

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 08:44:27

“But if you’re paying off your CC every month, do you NEED to obsess over your FICO”?

I wouldn’t obsess over it, however in the event that you do decide to take out a mortgage or other type of loan. The FICO score is important.

Example, if you have a CC with a $25,000.00 line and run a consistent balance of say $3500.00 but always pay on time, the person that pays in full every month won’t get a higher score for paying in full. Obviously they won’t be paying an interest rate, though, and that’s what issuers are going after. As you know.

 
Comment by speedingpullet
2009-10-27 08:44:57

Was thinking exactly the same thing myself Jim A.

If you’re paying off your CC in full every month, then you don’t strike me as a person who has a problem with thier credit score…

 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-10-27 08:47:29

Yes, I had no credit cards, and had low FICO.

I got cards and started to try to engineer a score ($5000 secured card from BofA, etc). I found that paying my cards off every month still hurt me, because I guess the lame system doesn’t really see this. Alternating between cards so everything is on one for a month, then nothing the next, then more the next, seems to be the way to fool it.

FICO is garbage.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-10-27 09:44:30

You guys got it all wrong. I have an 835 FICO(not that I give a rats ass) but getting a high score is quite simple. At least it used to be. Get three different accounts, pay entire balance on each religiously, every six months request a limit increase on two accounts. A FICO account is scored mostly on credit limit/debt ratio and as you can see, your FICO will skyrocket. Of course you must have a decent income to get your limit raised. I started doing this back in the 1990’s and by 2003 I two accounts limits in excess of 40k and and a AAA FICO. Auto insurance is less, etc etc. $hittibank got pissed at me for being a dead beat and threatened to cancel my account back in 2004 so I did it for them. Turned around and got another from JPM and did the same. By 2006, it too was in the 35-40k range. The access to tens of thousands means more to me than the fico score.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-10-27 10:55:30

A FICO account is scored mostly on credit limit/debt ratio and as you can see, your FICO will skyrocket.

That is (was?) my understanding, too. But that can’t be the whole story — anecdotally, there also seems to be a built-in element of capriciousness to the FICO recipe.

 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-10-27 12:50:27

It also depends on time. Old people can hit the high 800’s, I don’t think younger people can. Length of time each tradeline is open counts (20+ years helps). That’s why closing CC tradelines hurt the score.

 
 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-27 09:07:35

FICO has turned into a joke.

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Comment by Reuven
2009-10-27 12:41:48

I have zero debt, so I don’t worry much about my FICO, except to check my credit report once a year to make sure there are no errors.

However, I do think it’s a joke. I’ve got cash in the bank, do debt, and pay off credit cards when due (which is known as a “deadbeat” in the industry because they make no fees on me!)

You’d think I’d have the maximum score, but I don’t. Why? Because they don’t distinguish an average balance–even one that’s paid off each month–from a revolving balance. I do a lot of coporate travel, so there’s usually a 10-20K balance each month that’s paid off. In the eyes of the FICO algorithm, I’ve been “carrying” a 15K (average) balance for the past 10 years….

 
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 07:52:39

“They can either pay that fee or they can close the account, and if they have had the account for a while and they close it, they are potentially going to hurt their credit card score,” said Woolsey.”

I call BS. It’s a bluff.

Credit scores exist for a reason - to ascertain the risk of a given borrower. If someone’s score goes down due to closing an account that’s just introduced new fees - that indicates responsible action, not irresponsible action. Their credit score should go up, not down.

That being the case - if FICO etc. were to lower scores based on this, then expect big-time class-action suits against the credit reporting agencies.

Seems to me anyhow.

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 08:36:24

“Their credit score should go up, not down”.

“That being the case - if FICO etc. were to lower scores based on this, then expect big-time class-action suits against the credit reporting agencies”.

Don’t know all of the mechanics of the credit ratings, however I do know if you start closing down credit lines, because you aren’t using them and think it’s the prudent thing to do, It will impact the FICO score in a negative way.

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Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-10-27 08:48:51

How it should work has nothing to do with how the garbage FICO works.

Close a card you’ve had forever, and score can drop heavily. You’ve reduced the available credit, possibly increased the debt to credit limit, etc.

It’s a horrible system with way too much power.

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Comment by rainmayun
2009-10-27 08:54:25

Just to start an argument, should something as widely used as a FICO score be trusted to private corporations? Are the economic incentives in place for them to get the scores right?

 
Comment by rainmayun
2009-10-27 08:55:59

BTW, this is part of the weird twilight zone of the law wherein information about oneself does not belong to oneself, but instead to someone else who may not have one’s best interests in mind - like one’s medical records.

 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-10-27 12:53:07

The three credit reporting agencies keep famous and influential people in a different database. It’d be horrific if some TV star spoke out against TU/Equifax/Experian I guess. Meanwhile good luck correcting information. The CRA (Credit Reporting Agencies) can burn along with FICO.

 
 
Comment by DD
2009-10-27 08:50:39

then expect big-time class-action suits against the credit reporting agencies.

I think this action should be underway now. I don’t believe that if you had good credit, paid on time, over years, then closed some accts that your “credit Fico ” should be diminished at all. Your utilities still are being paid on time, mortgage or rents etc, so why should you ‘have’ to keep all accts open.

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Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 09:20:03

” - that indicates responsible action, not irresponsible action. ”

Which is why, in New Amerika, this action will be punished.

Eventually, the only crime will be to follow the law.

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Comment by Kirisdad
2009-10-27 10:44:15

” Eventually, the only crime will be to follow the law.”

Terrific statement Pondering. The scary part is how close we are right now.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-10-27 17:54:15

Close? We’re there.

Just breathing means you are somehow, some way breaking a law.

If someone were to go over your life with a fine tooth comb, they would find some infraction. Something that wasn’t against the rules earlier in your life is now illegal.

Yeah, you have rights and freedoms. Or at least, as much as you can afford.

 
 
 
Comment by Kim
2009-10-27 08:28:22

“They can either pay that fee or they can close the account, and if they have had the account for a while and they close it, they are potentially going to hurt their credit card score,” said Woolsey.”

Seems to me that folks who pay their bills completely and on time every month (meaning they use credit for convenience sake, not out of absolute necessity) don’t need to worry about a few points on their credit score. I’ll cancel my card in a heartbeat if my credit card tries this. I do consider FICOs important for getting the best insurance rates and in the event an employer runs a report. However, for the few times I need a credit score, I would have no problem requesting “manual underwriting” or personally explaining the situation to any potential employer.

 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-10-27 08:41:04

So people who pay bills on time, refuse to pay the annual fee, drop the card, take the hit on FICO and so instead decide to pay all cash for everything. Yeah, that will work out for them.

What were the numbers again? Maybe they should stick w/their 1.5% to 2.5% skim.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-10-27 09:13:31

Val baby, you were robbed. You should have gotten the academy for Doc Holiday. BTW, I loved you as Doc.

Comment by Kirisdad
2009-10-27 10:41:09

I second that Gal ! I still watch that movie to see Kilmer’s Doc Holiday. I don’t even like westerns.

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Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-27 12:38:28

“I don’t even like westerns.”

Are you a commie? Westerns are awesome, especially with Clint Eastwood. I just watched “The Outlaw Josey Wales” the other night. My favorite exchange:

Bounty hunter: You’re wanted, Wales.
Josey Wales: Reckon I’m right popular. You a bounty hunter?
Bounty hunter: A man’s got to do something for a living these days.
Josey Wales: Dyin’ ain’t much of a living, boy.

 
Comment by Kirisdad
2009-10-27 14:57:12

Grizz, I should of said I like very few westerns. ‘The outlaw Josie Wales’ and ‘The magnificent seven’ are two of my favorites. Also ‘Butch Cassidy and….” and John Ford’s ‘Stagecoach’. IMO, Kilmer’s Doc Holiday was classic.

 
 
 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2009-10-27 07:32:00

AT&T Universal Card promised no annual fee for life. I have had one since it came out, have the balance automatically deducted from checking each month, and never pay interest.

At some point Citibank bought the card. More recently, probably due to paranoia about bad charges, it has been rejecting charges left and right. (It used to brag that as a result of knowing my history, it could predict and stop bad charges, but it has been blocking charges at places I have patronized for years).

I now have a second card, and have cut way back on the Citibank charges. But if they try to reneg on that “no annual fee for life” deal, they’d better expect a class action lawsuit.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-27 07:47:56

And that’s the way it should be WT. You buy a house/land with encumbrances like rent stabilization or a renter or easement.

You buy a business with contracts in place until it expires.
————————————–
they’d better expect a class action lawsuit.

 
Comment by Kim
2009-10-27 08:41:49

WT, that seems like a strange way of handling it. If they didn’t want you to use the card, they could jack rates to the max and keep them there, or lower your credit limit to the point of being unusable, and somewhere in the fine print the issuer probably reserves the right to yank it completely. Seems like if you’re in a store and Citi won’t approve the transaction, you’ll whip out another method of payment, and they’re out whatever money they might have made on the transaction fee.

Comment by Shizo
2009-10-27 13:39:19

I just got my CHASE notice of changes to your account flyer and sure enough, in the fine print (it was ALL fine print BTW) it states they can change the rate, the line of credit and cancel the card at ANY time. I’m going to cancel every card I have and pay off the auto loan in full. Credit? GFY. These actions will drive the final nail into the coffin of the (corporate) American Dream.

Go FICO yourself Experian, Equifax, and TransUnion!
I’ll rent FOREVER! BWAHAHAHAHAHICAHICAHAHAHCIA!

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Comment by SD Renter
2009-10-27 14:03:28

I have perfect credit and when they charge me I call and threaten to cancel and they NEVER charge me. Just bitch and they’ll take care of it.

 
 
Comment by peter a
2009-10-27 06:47:48

Home prices rise in most major cities in August
US home prices rise again in August, cementing the beginnings of a housing turnaround
NEW YORK (AP) — U.S. home prices rose for the third straight month in August, data Tuesday showed, a key sign for a broad and sustained housing recovery.
The Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller home price index of 20 major cities climbed 1 percent from July to a seasonally adjusted reading of 144.5. While prices are down 11.4 percent from August a year ago, the annual declines have slowed since February.
Prices are at levels not seen since August 2003 and have fallen almost 30 percent from the peak in May 2006.

“I am going to buy a house before its to late”.
“Looks like I will be priced out for ever if I dont act”

Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-10-27 07:44:33

I’m shocked that they didn’t make mention of the $8,000 tax credit causing an artificial bump. I figured they would want to mention that since it seems like a major detail. It must have just been an oversight.

Comment by speedingpullet
2009-10-27 09:49:44

Or that its recording summer figures. You know, when people traditionally buy houses?

I’ll feign surprise (to anyone that wants me to) if the figure increases for the MoM period of Nov-Dec….

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 07:44:50

The increasing evidence that home prices are rising again suggests there is no need to renew the $8K first-time buyer tax credit.

Comment by arizonadude
Comment by wittbelle
2009-10-27 08:47:03

Wow… if I could get through that article, maybe I could understand it. There’s so much shoddy grammar going on there, I had to get out my red Sharpie.

P.S. Does anyone know how to get Sharpie off an iMac?

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Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-10-27 08:50:16

Write over the sharpie with a dry erase marker, then wipe it off :-)

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-27 08:53:46

Write over the sharpie with a dry erase marker, then wipe it off :-)

We learn so much from each other. Wow,just wow!

 
Comment by oxide
2009-10-27 09:43:18

Acetone (nail polish remover) dissolves Sharpie ink and will remove Sharpie from almost anything. But you probably don’t want to use acetone on plastics (it destroys polycarbonate).

Use rubbing alcohol and a little elbow grease.

 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-10-27 12:57:21

Co-worker wrote on white board with perm marker. Was all sad and told me he damaged our whiteboard. I giggled and wrote over it with the black dry-erase, let it sit for 45 seconds and wiped off his markings. He was shocked, as the other solvents we had didn’t work. Dry erase is just a sharpie with built-in solvent :-) Learned the trick from computer collectors who wanted to remove writing left on auction purchased vintage equipment.

 
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 08:19:34

FWIW however - the FHFA shows prices falling for the same month (August).

Anecdotally - I see some prices starting to fall again after rising in the spring and summer - e.g. the Florida Association of Realtors stats show median prices for the state:

Sep-08 175.1
Oct-08 169.7
Nov-08 158.3
Dec-08 155.5
Jan-09 139.5
Feb-09 141.9
Mar-09 141.3
Apr-09 138.5
May-09 144.4
Jun-09 148.0
Jul-09 147.6
Aug-09 147.4
Sep-09 142.0

So I think as we get into fall, the Case/Shiller numbers will take a downturn. There’s quite a lag with those numbers - they’re over two months behind.

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 09:23:07

Thanks heavens!

For a while there, I thought housing would become affordable. We can’t have that!

Now, thanks to our tax dollars being wasted by dolts leveraging up on houses they cannot afford, we can all be “homeowners” indirectly! Good thing the FHA is secure financially and we’ve flushed the fraud from the system! Hahahahaha…

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 14:18:03

It seems like what will happen depends most of all on whether various behind-the-scenes efforts to inflate prices are maintained or not. Animal will remain spirited until the bubble finally deflates and many are heard to say that real estate is the worst possible investment.

Home

UPDATE 2-US home price gains may not be sustainable-Shiller
Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:23pm EDT

NEW YORK, Oct 27 (Reuters) - The gains in U.S. home prices in recent months may not be sustainable and increases in some areas of the country appear to be in “bubble territory,” an economist known for his property market expertise said on Tuesday.

“The prominent fact that we are seeing with this data is that home prices are just zipping up,” Shiller said.

“It is entirely possible that even with the bad news we are getting, home prices could start a major increase,” he said.

Prices in the top 10 U.S. metropolitan areas gained 1.3 percent in August after a 1.7 percent rise the previous month, according to the S&P composite index.

Shiller said he does not agree with analysts who believe that rising unemployment will hurt home prices. The U.S. jobless rate reached a 26-year high of 9.8 percent in September.

“It is unlikely that we will have the major, colossal bubble we had a few years ago, but even in the Great Depression real home prices were rising with the unemployment rate above 12 percent,” he said. “Just because we have high unemployment does not mean the stock market cannot boom and the housing market cannot boom.

“What happens from here will depend on people’s animal spirits and speculative impulses,” Shiller said. (Reporting by Jennifer Rogers; Editing by Leslie Adler)

Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-27 17:30:50

It appears that shiller has aligned his statements with NAR indirectly. He seems to have done a 180 degree by carefully dissecting some of the relevant data to support his statements. I wonder why this fellow all of a sudden is painting rosy housing pictures with blue skies.

Comment by packman
2009-10-27 19:28:12

I think he’s more just pointing out the blue skies that are overhead, while at the same time pointing out the storm clouds on the horizon. He’s right that housing prices did rise a fair amount during the depression actually, before falling again in the late 1939-1940 timeframe. This time there is more stimulus being pumped directly into housing than there was then.

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Comment by John Danger
2009-10-27 06:58:17

A short follow-up to a post from Friday (about bankruptcies).

Many here, like most of the MSM strongly believe the number 66 as percentage of heath related bankruptcies (or something close to it). As I said Friday, I do some computer work for a lawyer that does a lot of them (only Chapter 7 though) in Maryland. What he said is different …

Keep in mind that he is only doing Chapter 7 (low income) in one state but the difference is too big not to put it on someone’s agenda (especially now that they are/were talking so much about health care reform). He said that in the last 20+ years, MAYBE 20% (probably only 10-15) of what he did were because of health related issues (not only bills but also disability that lead to decreased income while the expenses were the same).

I KNOW he doesn’t have any interest in lying to me while MSM has, so … maybe someone else who knows some similar data from another state can chime in with some info …

Comment by Skeptical Onlooker
2009-10-27 07:13:15

Agreed, that’s why I questioned that stat last week. In my practice doing work for banks, less then 10% of the Debtor’s file due to health bills. Now I am only seeing homeowner cases in a relatively average income part of the country (MA - Not the (used to be) affluent Boston/495 corridor) so it is likely statistically insignificant, but interesting nonetheless. That stat on Friday also talked about people who HAD insurance also filing in very high numbers which made me even more curious.

 
Comment by James
2009-10-27 07:29:02

The debate is too charged to make any statements like this with out it becoming a shouting match.

Thanks for the on the ground data.

That with the insurance companies profit margin being 6% ish.

Costs seem to come from elsewhere in the system. Hospitals, greedy doctors, malpractice suits, drug companies. Figure they will get the O treatment before long.

I blame the government spending on medicare driving up the cost.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-10-27 08:49:53

Seeing “the O treatment” in print is unsettling. Is a joshua tree involved?

Comment by james
2009-10-27 09:03:52

Will probably invole poorly thought out legislation that isn’t properly funded and involves crushing penalties on business.

Possibly it will end up making us dependant on a bunch of government workers for our health.

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Comment by DD
2009-10-27 09:01:55

I blame the government spending on medicare driving up the cost.

I would say the last admin(senate/congress) was responsible for the medicare D debacle that lobbyists got through. The medicare D made it so that medicare cannot negotiate lower pharma costs like the military med can, so the costs continue to skyrocket for medicare. And the lobbyists won with the last admin (sen/con) for med D with the ever lovely Donut hole that makes each and every senior responsible for anything over 3,500-7,000 of costs. Again, there is that conversation about many seniors on low fixed incomes and where are they getting that amt between 3,500-7,000?

Lets put the ‘blame’ where it goes, lobbyists and CONgress/senate members.

Comment by james
2009-10-27 09:11:44

From a macro perspective… any additional money thrown at a problem will increase costs. Like increasing student loans (Bush) and the prescription drug benefit (Bush).

Was not aware on the negotiations. Seeing how much hospitals bill when they think its going to medicare vs what is negotiated prices go to insurance companies was an eye opener as well.

This was back in 01 for me. Good ole cardiac intensive care.

My current plan medical plan is to die out hiking. Free body disposal care of nature.

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Comment by In Montana
2009-10-27 13:17:48

OMG I can’t believe Lieberman, he makes too much sense on this

“I can’t see a way in which I could vote for cloture on any bill that contained a creation of a government-operated-run insurance company,” Lieberman added. “It’s just asking for trouble – in the end, the taxpayers are going to pay and probably all people will have health insurance are going to see their premiums go up because there’s going to be cost shifting as there has been for Medicare and Medicaid.”

http://tinyurl.com/yzfdd35

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Comment by DD
2009-10-27 22:37:36

Guy is an as s- totally a narcissist.

 
 
Comment by hip in zilker
2009-10-27 15:03:27

Especially Tom Delay.

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Comment by measton
2009-10-27 09:15:15

I blame the government spending on medicare driving up the cost.

??????????????????
Care to elaborate

6% means nothing
They take home 50-100 billion a year in profits.

Even that is misleading because
Profits do not include the 10’s of millions the CEO makes and the millions the underlings of the CEO make, the 100’s of millions spent on lobbying and advertising. All of this money is siphoned away from medical care.

Comment by DebtinNation
2009-10-27 11:51:40

Hmm, my insurance premiums are about $200 a month, probably a little less on average than what I’m paying on car maintenance. On the other hand, I know someone who recently had their appendix taken out and the hospital billed the insurance company $17,000 A NIGHT for the hospital stay alone. Not the surgery or anything else. Tell me how on God’s green earth anyone can justify a hospital room at $17,000 a night.

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Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-10-27 13:01:16

Wow, mine after my segway accident was $750/night. I thought that was high!

 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-27 22:20:35

I have my own appendectomy experience, sans insurance. When I awoke in the room following surgery (which was supposed to be arthroscopic but there were complications which resulted in an 8 inch abdominal incision), I had a visitor. She was from billing. She asked me how I would be paying. I told her I didn’t even have a bill yet so I had no idea what sort of figure we were talking about, and asked her for a ballpark estimate. She told me she couldn’t guess as to doctors, etc., but the hospital bed alone was more than $7500 per day. I was so taken aback all I could manage to blurt out was “I’ve got to get out of here, NOW!” It made the rest of the stay more than a little unpleasant.

My bill ended up at $50,000 when factoring in doctors and everything else. I negotiated it down, but had to take out a HELOC in order to pay. Fun.

 
 
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 08:29:53

Just to reiterate - the stats quoted were from 2000 - almost 10 years ago, and before the housing bubble even really got going, and also way before the bankruptcy law changes went into effect in 2005. So IMO they’re fairly meaningless today.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-10-27 17:35:58

62% in 2007!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bill/

(how do you do the thing where a word is your link? me want do too)

Comment by packman
2009-10-27 18:13:29

Again though - that was back when home prices peaked, and bankruptcies were few, and virtually none due to normal risk-based economic hardship, since the new money was flowing like water. I haven’t seen stats, but I venture that 2007 was probably the exact nadir of bankruptcies at least since the GD. Perhaps 2006 had fewer.

P.S. link doesn’t work - for me at least

P.P.S. I’m not really trying to say anything w/regards to the appropriateness of medical bankruptcies or the like - just stating that the last 10 years have been an extreme aberration in all financial markets - really probably the last 25 years or so, since the stock market bubble really hit in the mid 80’s.

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Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-10-27 20:05:28

The link works if you type it in. I don’t know why it won’t connect. (Or go to CNN and look for it.)

But flip what you’re saying around. How many families blew through the money they could HELOC trying to keep a loved-one alive? Easy money wouldn’t necessarily have increased bankruptcies due to medical issues. It should have lessened them, if anything.

One of the few articles I’ve seen disputing the numbers kept pointing out that there were fewer bankruptcies *overall* in the latter part of the study (when medical bankruptcies were a higher percentage), and more in the earlier part (when they were lower). But that would make total sense in the easy-money environment we were in at the end of the study. It doesn’t disprove the percentages. They couldn’t get past the lower overall amount to grasp the higher percentage. There are none so blind…

 
 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 18:16:21

(how do you do the thing where a word is your link? me want do too)

put these all on one line (hopefully this’ll work):

wwwdotsomething

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Comment by packman
2009-10-27 18:18:51

LOL - OK well that didn’t work. Trying again, except substitute left arrows and right arrows where you see parentheses, and do include the quotes around the link:

(
a href
=
“wwwdotsomething”
)
blahblahblahmytext
(
/
a
)

(put all that on a line together)

 
Comment by goedeck
2009-10-27 19:08:44

(a href=)howdy(/a)

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-10-27 20:49:42
 
 
 
 
Comment by polly
2009-10-27 13:32:07

It is important to point out that Maryland has a very different hospital billing requirements than other states. They have set charges that are used for private insurance, medicare, and private pay patients. The upshot being that people without insurance are not charged outrageous “charge master” charges in MD that really only exist as a starting off point for insurance companies and hospitals to start negociating with each other. Uninsured get charged the same as the insurance companies.

Translate to my knee surgery - if I had used an MD hospital, the charge probably would have been a little higher than the $1607 that my insurance paid the DC hospital, but an uninsured person would never have faced the chargemaster rate the hospital asked for - over $10,000.

Seems this would affect the number of medical bankruptcies in a big way.

 
 
Comment by pressboardbox
2009-10-27 07:08:10

What is the difference between a Realtor and a catfish?

-one is a slimy, mud-sucking, sh*t-eating, bottom feeder. the other is a fish.

Comment by FB wants a do over
2009-10-27 07:53:58

What is the difference between the swine flu and the bird flu.

You receive a tweetment for the bird flu.
You receive oinkment for the swine flu.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-27 08:01:47

we must all lead such boring lives today if i am laughing my azzz off over these jokes.

 
Comment by ann gogh
2009-10-27 08:05:07

ditto

 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2009-10-27 07:14:54

I know there aren’t alot of teevee watchers here but I can’t help not notice how many new ad campaigns by banks very recently. Alluring to the debt-junkies I’m certain but they make me grimmace. The slave masters are back in full force it seems.

Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-10-27 07:47:12

There is nothing better than watching Ally Bank tell the world how much integrity they have.

 
Comment by speedingpullet
2009-10-27 09:59:56

I guess it makes a nice change from endless pharma commercials about brand name painkillers.

Whodathunk that everyone’s arthritis could have gotten so bad since the Recession? And that we needed so many pill choices for it?

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 07:17:09

“It’s all bad. That’s all we know,” said John Stepek, editor of MoneyWeek. “People ask if we’re going to have inflation or deflation. The bulls think we’re going to have inflation. The bears bet on deflation. But I’m not sure it matters. We’re probably going to have both.

“The point is, whichever we have, it’s going to be the bad sort. Neither inflation nor deflation is necessarily bad. Prices have to adjust. That’s how the market conveys its signals. When prices rise, it tells producers to get busy and increase output. When prices fall, it tells them to lay off. In the natural order of things prices usually fall. Or, they should fall. This is ‘good’ deflation. It just means that producers are becoming more efficient, as they should. There’s good inflation too – when prices rise due to increased real demand. When people earn more money, they can buy more things; prices rise.

“But what we’re going to see is bad. Bad inflation. And bad deflation. It is the result of monetary problems and mismanagement. And it is going to send all the wrong signals and inevitably make things worse. First, the deflation is bad because it is result of a massive de- leveraging accompanied by a write-down of debt and assets. It’s a depression. Or a major recession. Or a ‘great contraction.’ Call it what you will. It’s a deflation in which prices fall…and it’s not going to be any fun.

“Then, there’s most likely going to be bad inflation too – caused by the central banks printing too much money. This is bad inflation because it is just an increase in the quantity of paper money, not an increase in real demand.

“We don’t know exactly what is coming. But whatever it is, it will be bad.”

Excerpt ~ From The Daily Reckoning

Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 07:26:03

“This time around, should we expect things to move more rapidly or more slowly than average? My bet is on slow, which would push the peak inflation rate out toward the end of 2012. One reason for slow is that the government’s rescue packages are delaying the process. Rescuing banks that are choking on bad loans postpones the day of reckoning for both the banks and the loan customers. It retards the pace of foreclosure sales (whether of real estate or other collateral) and puts the deleveraging that has been going on since last fall into slow motion. A wilting of the recent stock market rally would confirm this”.

~ Terry Coxon - The Cassey Report

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 07:47:51

“The bulls think we’re going to have inflation. The bears bet on deflation. … We’re probably going to have both.”

If inflation is an increase in the general price level and deflation is a decrease, how can we have both? This discussion increasingly resembles that of the global climate change alarmists, who interpret every unusually cold winter as a symptom that the climate continues to heat up…

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-10-27 07:59:15

‘how can we have both?’

Well, you can’t. IMO, like the ’stagflation’ era, what we are seeing is economists coming up with new terms and definitions to basically say, “we don’t know what is happening anymore.”

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 08:39:46

“On the one hand, you could have inflation, but on the other hand, you could have deflation.”

Give me a one-handed economist! All my economists say, ‘on the one hand…on the other.’

– Harry S. Truman –

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Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-27 12:27:43

:-) good ol’ Harry

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 19:51:21

‘on the one hand…on the other.’

AKA ‘cover your @$$ economics’

 
 
 
Comment by James
2009-10-27 08:09:19

I would guess they are distracted by the CPI. If you are following the money it would be pretty clear. We might see substantial price inflation as capital flows back to the united states. This along with over all deflationary environment. At the same time we’d be sending goods out of the US so seeing less of the benefit.

At least that is my guess. Lots of variables in this. Velocity of money, changes in reserve requirements, Fed, moves by China exc.

Somewhere along the line China will realize they have to spend some of the reserves.

Basically there can be a big delay between the time money is created and money is spent. Depends on the framework we are viewing it in.

We are looking like long slow painful deflation a la Japan.

Comment by wittbelle
2009-10-27 09:17:10

As Robert Shiller said in a recent interview, “We are in uncharted territory.” And like Mother Nature, when you fool with the natural balance of things, there is no way to know the long-term effects. The reason the economy is unpredictable is because it’s being altered by outside forces, much like genetically modified plants. All these injections and additives into the financial system are really f-ing with the balance. The truth is, no one really knows what is going to happen. All we can do is protect ourselves as much as possible by not getting into debt and not making foolish investments, (or buying genetically modified food), and hope for the best.

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Comment by Jim A.
2009-10-27 08:31:44

Well during the bubble what we saw was price increases on those items (for the most part, RE and Equities) that could be used as collateral for further debt. Those items are going down in price. As they do, many people are discovering that some of the money lent with them as collateral is disappearing. The Fed and Treasury are trying to replace this disappearing money with new debt. What will the net effect be? I sure don’t know, and at some level I think that puts me ahead of many.

 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 08:35:28

If inflation is an increase in the general price level and deflation is a decrease, how can we have both? This discussion increasingly resembles that of the global climate change alarmists, who interpret every unusually cold winter as a symptom that the climate continues to heat up…

FWIW - actually that’s a good analogy, in that we can have both at the same time. For instance most people don’t realize that while polar ice is decreasing in the northern hemisphere, it’s increasing on Antarctica.

One need only look at 2008 - gas prices vs home prices - to see simultaneous inflation and deflation, depending on the asset class.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 08:42:01

“One need only look at 2008 - gas prices vs home prices - to see simultaneous inflation and deflation, depending on the asset class.”

Home prices are not part of inflation/deflation, as homes are assets (at least that’s my impression of what the Fed says…).

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Comment by packman
2009-10-27 09:44:10

Home prices are not part of inflation/deflation, as homes are assets (at least that’s my impression of what the Fed says…).

Lending creedence to what the Fed says now, are we?

:razz:

 
 
Comment by DD
2009-10-27 09:10:41

it’s increasing on Antarctica.

Nope.

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Comment by packman
2009-10-27 09:48:47
 
Comment by SUGuy
2009-10-27 18:20:26

NOPE on the one hand but YEP on the other hand.

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-27 22:42:15

NOPE on the one hand but YEP on the other hand.

oh sure.. just go on…!

 
 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-27 09:41:28

“For instance most people don’t realize that while polar ice is decreasing in the northern hemisphere, it’s increasing on Antarctica.”

This is not necessarily fact. While it’s increasing in east Antarctica, it’s decreasing in west Antarctica. Many studies show it’s a wash at best. It’s like listening to economists. Who are you going to believe?

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Comment by packman
2009-10-27 09:55:51

This is not necessarily fact. While it’s increasing in east Antarctica, it’s decreasing in west Antarctica. Many studies show it’s a wash at best. It’s like listening to economists. Who are you going to believe?

Point taken. Though note that east Antarctica is four times the size of west - so while it may be a wash, the fact that one side may be increasing with the other decreasing isn’t what makes it a wash.

 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-27 10:49:09

Where did I insinuate they were of equal size, and that’s what made it a wash?

 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-27 11:09:02

Let’s look at the facts. Per Wikipedia:

“It is estimated that the volume of the Antarctic ice sheet is about 25.4 million km3, and the WAIS contains just under 10% of this, or 2.2 million km3.”

This would indicate that the EAIS (East Antarctic Ice Sheet) is actually 9 times the size of the WAIS. However, what is important is the rate of ice creation in the EAIS, and the rate of melt in the WAIS. This is where there is much room for debate and why there are opposing viewpoints.

There is, however, some reliable info on the trend in surface temperatures which cannot be denied.

Per Wikipedia:

“The continent-wide average surface temperature trend of Antarctica is positive and significant at >0.05°C/decade since 1957. West Antarctica has warmed by more than 0.1°C/decade in the last 50 years, and this warming is strongest in winter and spring. Although this is partly offset by fall cooling in East Antarctica, this effect is restricted to the 1980s and 1990s.”

Whatever the cause, it sure seems that the trend is clear- warming temperatures and melting ice.

 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 11:23:21

There are apparently contradictory studies, as you say. From the article I linked above:

East Antarctica is four times the size of west Antarctica and parts of it are cooling. The Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research report prepared for last week’s meeting of Antarctic Treaty nations in Washington noted the South Pole had shown “significant cooling in recent decades”.

A paper to be published soon by the British Antarctic Survey in the journal Geophysical Research Letters is expected to confirm that over the past 30 years, the area of sea ice around the continent has expanded.

(Note though that sea ice doesn’t contribute to sea level changes - it does however indicate a general cooling)

I’ll be the first to say that I’m no expert, and haven’t done much in-depth research on the subject. Maybe there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary - this is just one article I’ve seen recently.

 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-27 11:55:07

I’ve read that report, packman, as well as several others which support it’s findings, and several which are in direct contradiction. What I find interesting, is how so many scientists can come up with completely different conclusions. Google “Antarctic ice sheet melting”, and “Antarctic ice sheet expanding” and there are innumerable articles supporting each.

I draw the same conclusions about scientists as I do about economists- I don’t trust them. A lot of the studies are bought and paid for by special interests, with the conclusions supporting the donors best interests.

 
Comment by james
2009-10-27 17:07:14

You guys are talking about temperature trends and numbers that are very sketchy. Basically you are talking about very spotty data from 1990 on backwards. I’d guess the density of stations is still quite low even now. We are making some estimates from satelite data but even that data may have bias in it.

Then you take all those numbers, ignore moisture levels and poof come up with a composite number for temperature. I don’t know if that means anything at all either.

Again, we are also at the mercy of the solar cycle too.

Should also note a lot of the global warming models have show great matching with the past. Its a good thing to take those models, freeze the inputs and set them on auto pilot. Then see how they track. If your saying this isn’t fair because events like volcanic eruptions throw off the results or solar fluxuations throw it off, then what good is it?

I believe the change in trend over the last couple of years is not predicted. Still might not be a change in overall warming, then again it might be. I’m sure we will know something in a decade or so. Probably that our models are wrong. Then a decade later we’ll find out are models were wrong again.

My guess is eventually we will get them right but probably understand they are throw off by so many events, like volcanic action or earthquakes, that we just don’t care.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Mike in Miami
2009-10-27 08:31:22

That about sums it up nicely. I would guess there’s inflation in most things that are considered a store of value as the smart money flees paper money (dollar, yen, euro, etc.) due to the massiv money printing going on everywhere. This will most likely drive up the prices of commodities, gold, oil, cotton and maybe even real estate in areas that were not too outrageously priced to begin with.
Deflation will be in all non-essentials like new cars, Starbucks coffee, hair salons, restaurants, McMansions, etc.
Currently there’s a high demand for short term treasuries. My guess is that many are afraid to buy 10 year treasuries ‘cos they don’t want to be holding the bag at around 4% when inflation kicks in. Uncle Sam doesn’t need hyper inflation to get by, a steady 10-15% rate anually will do just fine.

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 09:29:03

Of course salaries will keep up… oh, wait - they won’t.

Poverty will be the new trend as we achieve the 15% solution: 15% inflation with 15 unemployment.

 
 
 
Comment by Skip
2009-10-27 07:29:40

A very interesting read(w/pics):

The Lost History Of Hemland
If you look beyond the soldiers, and into the distance, what you are really seeing are the ruins of one of the biggest technological projects the United States has ever undertaken. Its aim was to use science to try and change the course of history and produce a modern utopia in Afghanistan.
By Adam Curtis

October 21, 2009 “BBC” — 13 October 2009 — When you look at footage of the fighting in Helmand today everyone assumes it is being played out against an ancient background of villages and fields built over the centuries.

This is not true. If you look beyond the soldiers, and into the distance, what you are really seeing are the ruins of one of the biggest technological projects the United States has ever undertaken. Its aim was to use science to try and change the course of history and produce a modern utopia in Afghanistan. The city of Lashkar Gah was built by the Americans as a model planned city, and the hundreds of miles of canals that the Taliban now hide in were constructed by the same company that built the San Francisco Bay Bridge and Cape Canaveral.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23777.htm

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-27 08:43:10

Wow skip…that is awesome! Thanks!

I don’t suppose Cheney ever told Shrub about any of this…

Run Hwy,…RUN! :-)

 
Comment by DebtinNation
2009-10-27 12:04:53

Damn. I knew it was all somehow all our fault. I’ll bet Bush’s grandfather was behind this one.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 07:36:07

Seniors squeezed as doctors shun Medicare
If a proposed 21% cut in payment rates goes through in 2010, it could spark a physician boycott against new enrollees.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — Medicare has become a scary word to the doctors at the largest private group practice in Kansas City, Mo.

It’s so scary that most physicians at Kansas City Internal Medicine, with 65% of its nearly 70,000 active patients age 65 or older, have stopped accepting walk-in Medicare enrollees, said Dr. David Wilt, an internist at the group.

Wilt and his colleagues say they are shunning the area’s growing senior population because they believe Medicare doesn’t reimburse physicians enough to cover the cost of care.

“And if Medicare further cuts its reimbursement rates, then we’ll be functioning at a loss,” said Wilt.

Wilt — and doctors with lots of senior patients — are especially troubled by a 21% cut in Medicare payments to physicians scheduled to take place in 2010. Last week, the Senate voted against stopping that cut, and more annual cuts over the next decade, from taking place.

“If the [21%] cut happens, that cut in our payments will exceed our profits. The only option to us to stay in business will be to fire employees,” Wilt said.

Physicians say a boycott against Medicare has already begun because they are tired of dealing with the yearly threat of a payment cut.

Comment by GH
2009-10-27 07:47:03

This is more proof insurance as a way of paying medical bills does not work. Insurance should work like car insurance covering the large problems and allowing the individual to change the oil…

I am pretty sure doctors would REALLY hate a world in which everyone paid cash and was price shopping and thinking about how much things were actually going to cost. The biggest problem with insurance is that no one cares what the care they get costs, in fact many feel after spending thousands on premiums they should get their money’s worth out of the system making things even worse.

The biggest fact here is that given the reluctance of the medical industry to reduce costs, medical care is indeed a luxury and not a given.

Welcome to the real world in which those with money get a nice house in a safe neighborhood, a late model high end car, first class travel, name brand shoes etc. Not fair?

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-27 07:57:51

GH:

I think you have it BACKWARDS

I think insurance companies/government should allow Free or low cost annual checkups, cancer screening , semi minor teeth deep cleaning cavities even a root canal or tooth cap…etc. and cheap glasses…then if you FAIL to keep your appointments or insurance then you pay a full price..or suffer with no teeth bad vision and untreatable diseases

I think prevention will save tens maybe hundreds of billions down the road each year…

————————————————————————-
Insurance should work like car insurance covering the large problems and allowing the individual to change the oil

Comment by In Montana
2009-10-27 09:18:28

There are any number of screenings that could be considered “routine” - which ones would be covered? This could easily become like the accretion of mandates that has made rates skyrocket. We have 40 mandates in this state.

It always starts bare-bones and then the whining begins about this or that oughta be covered!1!

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Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-27 09:35:39

Then I ask is keeping people sick, on welfare,or disability cheaper then keeping them healthy to work?

 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-10-27 09:40:47

You’re being sensible. Stop that right now!

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Comment by Steve W
2009-10-27 08:42:08

As a primary care doc, I’d really LOVE a world in which everybody pays cash. Right now, our office needs 5 billers for 9 docs (in order to fill out all the forms, follow up on insurance payments, resend the 5% of bills insurance companies reject as a matter of hand, etc). Ridiculous. We’ve gone back and forth about trying an all cash model. A few docs in my area have done it, and they’ve done OK with it but lost at least 75% of their old patients. Costs were cut enough that they’re making about the same they were, they are seeing less patients which is nice, but I’d hate to see people I’ve known for years and years and developed a nice relationship with leave me because of it. Going off insurance scares the heck out of people, even if you sit down and explain the math to them.

I’m at about 45% Medicare right now, and I can attest that if we do have a 21% cut in pay–we’re done accepting medicare. There’s no way a small group of docs like us stay in business, at least stay in business and still take good care of people.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-27 09:00:53

Get You HEAD out of your A** Doc….In order to pay cash you need a JOB you know a Paying JOB so then your 5 employees would be out of work and with NO CASH to pay for your services.

sounds mean and cruel to them …right?

Oh yeah this is the I got mine business plan

—–
As a primary care doc, I’d really LOVE a world in which everybody pays cash.

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Comment by packman
2009-10-27 10:03:00

So you believe that job creation just for the sake of job creation is a valid model - i.e. the broken window fallacy. Nice.

By that logic, the government should buy 100,000 bulldozers (creating tons of jobs for Caterpillar), and bulldoze 2/3 of all the houses in the U.S. Just think how home prices will skyrocket, and all the new jobs that will be created building replacement houses! Heck for that matter - bulldoze them all!

You get your head out of your a**.

P.S. I normally don’t post so harshly, but you asked for it.

I really, really can’t stand the flawed logic of job creation just for jobs’ sake. It is faulty logic, and I honestly believe in a roundabout way it will be the downfall of our country.

 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 10:30:03

P.S. if your post was tongue-in-cheek (maybe it was, since I didn’t think you thought that way) - my sincere apologies.

 
Comment by Steve W
2009-10-27 10:57:30

Ah, love the hate here. Have to get back to work, but a few more thoughts:

1) I always give cash discounts–you’re paying essentially what the insurance company would pay me. Why would I want to screw someone on that–I want that person to keep coming back to me. I know a lot of my colleagues don’t do that, but I think they’re nuts. Dumb business decision.
2) Interestingly enough, a study came out a few years ago that getting people to stop smoking actually cost more in health care, because they lived longer! If everything is done just to save money, we’re better off not doing anything and just letting people die. I don’t want that.
3) Mayo clinic just stopped accepting new medicare patients in Arizona. Get ready for more of that.
4) I’m sorry, in colorado, but there’s no way you can run a good medical office losing 21% of revenue. If it was a simple matter of me making 21% less a year, that’s one thing, but having to still pay the fixed costs of health insurance to employees, malpractice, rent, and all the usual stuff every business has to do is impossible. If you can figure that out for me, send me your cv and I’ll hire you as our business manager ;)

 
Comment by Stpn2me
2009-10-27 12:07:02

In order to pay cash you need a JOB you know a Paying JOB

And WHO’s problem is THAT? The DOCS?

If we could have more people going into the sciences instead of wanting to become Socrates and basketweavers maybe someone could CREATE jobs..

Why the anger? Because the doc has a different view of socialized medicine?

Anyone have anything other than another ponzi scheme to PAY for nationalized healthcare?

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-27 20:09:17

Well…i was joking sort of…What if Steve became a DR. and had NO student debt but was obligated in private practice to take medicaid and medicare would that be OK?

————————-
Step

I agree…but you have a job

==============================================

I’ve been saying this for years…GM proved it 50-60% of gm workers smoked in the 60’s and 70’s new employees in the 90’s less then 10%….thats why they went broke

Interestingly enough, a study came out a few years ago that getting people to stop smoking actually cost more in health care, because they lived longer!

 
Comment by Stpn2me
2009-10-27 21:25:16

but was obligated in private practice to take medicaid and medicare would that be OK?

No….

Touche….

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-27 22:58:17

Step you are one cool dude….don’t agree with ya all the time but hey

we really need to have all Americans working…even if we have to have some sort of a draft or service obligation…maybe 1-2 years So much needs to be fixed in this country and it takes people…lots of them.

I should have added it would be an option to come out of medical school with Zero Debt and to take in medicaid or medicare patients for say 10 years It would serve a good purpose.

And those that want to go for the lipo/botox rich folks…well you can afford to pay down your debt.

 
 
Comment by Carl Morris
2009-10-27 09:07:12

I’d be a lot more interested in going cash if doctors would charge me the same rate they charge my insurance company after the insurance gets the bill knocked down by 75% or so.

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Comment by Elanor
2009-10-27 09:49:00

+1

How absurd that the people least able to afford to pay full price (the ones without insurance) are charged, and expected to pay it. It’s…..sick!

 
 
Comment by Cassandra
2009-10-27 09:33:41

I tried to do that. Pay in cash, real pictures of dead presidents. Rather than being given a discount, I pay extra, and am treated like a leper because I don’t give insurance info.

Sometimes I just want to walk into a Dr’s office and be treated. No paperwork, no waiting, all cash. I’m there because I’m sick and feel crappy. The last thing I want to do is hang out with sick people reading last year’s Golf Digest.

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Comment by packman
2009-10-27 10:04:36

I tried to do that. Pay in cash, real pictures of dead presidents. Rather than being given a discount, I pay extra, and am treated like a leper because I don’t give insurance info.

FWIW my experience is opposite. I used to have a high-deductible plan, and would usually just pay cash at doctors’ offices. I usually got a significant discount for doing so.

 
Comment by Cassandra
2009-10-27 10:06:55

I’d love to meet your Doc packman.

 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 10:28:01

I think the difference is that you didn’t give insurance info, whereas I did. The difference is risk to the doc. Did you pay in actual bills, or via check? The latter is a lot riskier to the doc, since a check can bounce and the doc is screwed. However if you give insurance info they have a fallback and the risk is reduced.

My doc was in Palm Beach county, FL. Can’t remember his name though - it’s been a few years.

 
Comment by Cassandra
2009-10-27 11:47:12

Cash, twenty dollar bills, in advance. He could even take it under the table for all I care

 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 12:27:02

Cash, twenty dollar bills, in advance. He could even take it under the table for all I care

Wow - that’s surprising. See Steve’s post above - apparently it just depends on the doc. Some like cash and will give a discount, others not apparently.

 
Comment by Cassandra
2009-10-27 13:17:04

yeah, I don’t get it.

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-27 09:37:50

“As a primary care doc, I’d really LOVE a world in which everybody pays cash.”

Well…

Mr Cole, ill, having much difficulty breathing…
(entering CHOC hospital ER) (per instr of his primary doctor)
40 minutes later…Mr. Cole entering examination area…
(foreign born nurse wheels over medical tool cart…speaking broken english…esplains: I needs to get some vitals…10 minutes fumbling around with thingy to get temp from finger… unable to get reading..10 minutes later, very busy US born nurse explains to her that there is a child size device & an adult size device)
AT THIS POINT: Hwy begins to wonder how much $$$ foreign born nurse is being paid? & WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT TO INCREASE THE COST $$$$$ OF THIS ER VISIT! …but wait… Hwy can not find a list of any any prices or charges per hour, how odd hwy thinks…but wait… a new person has just arrived:
A Respiration Therapist, nice smiling fellow, very chatty…”Let’s see what is happening here with Mr. Cole…” Again, Hwy wonders, how much is this fellow being paid $$$…AND WHAT IS GOING TO BE HIS CHARGES? but wait…before I can try to add up my estimated costs…a new person has just arrive:
A Respiration Therapist’s Nurse & an “assistant” of some unnamed sort.
Now Hwy is really scrambling, trying to estimate how much money $$$ they are being paid and what the cost $$$$ is going to add up to with the, still yet UNDETERMINED CHARGES. …but wait, still another person has now entered the scene:
A Pediatrician MD, …OMG a real doctor that is sure to charge real mullah $$$$ …but wait…20 seconds later she says: “…he seems to have blah blah blah…don’t worry, I’ll send A Respiration Therapist SPECIALIST to give Mr. Cole a “treatment”.

Meanwhile back at the Ranch er, “examination room #3″, the “Respiration Crew” ask Hwy if he would be so kind as to give Mr. Cole a blast in his lungs every 10 minutes or so, and then wait to see if there is any change. This goes on for about 40 minutes. The “Crew” turns on a video with Elmo…(Hwy is certain this will be listed as yet another charge.)

We leave and within a few days Mr. Cole is doing well.

But basically all I clearly remember is this:

Receptionist: “Do you have Insurance?”
Hwy: “Yes”
&
Hwy: “You have a beautiful hospital & really cool equipment”

Respiration Therapist’s Nurse: “Thank You, it just so happens we are building a new 10 story wing just for elderly people with class A insurance and the ability to qualify for a “6 figure” reverse mortgage on x1 of their primary residences” & “Oh, and don’t worry, Mr. Cole will be fine”

(Hwy notes: I never saw a bill or the charges) :-)

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Comment by In Colorado
2009-10-27 09:43:01

There’s no way a small group of docs like us stay in business

Maybe you’ll have to do what the rest of us do: Make do with less.

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Comment by Kirisdad
2009-10-27 11:11:51

Maybe if they didn’t have to pay a quarter of a million dollars to our greedy university system and then work for peanuts as medical residents, they could stay in the business of healing.

 
Comment by Stpn2me
2009-10-27 12:20:38

Maybe if they didn’t have to pay a quarter of a million dollars to our greedy university system and then work for peanuts as medical residents, they could stay in the business of healing.

+100

 
 
Comment by Elanor
2009-10-27 09:45:54

I’m a specialist (Pathology) but I agree with you, Steve.

The other day, my dad was reminiscing about the 1950’s and 60’s, when medical care was cheap and everyone paid cash. Nobody had “health insurance”. Yet somehow, doctors managed to earn a pretty good living, and their patients were satisfied with their care.

Insurance companies have added absolutely nothing to health care except more overhead.

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Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-27 10:08:26

Elanor:

But then People were ADULTS back in the 50’s 60’s. Our parents knew being sick was a risk and crap happens.

People were MATURE and didn’t sue over every little thing. and realized as Functioning Americans that probably 98% is the best anyone can do. And ACCEPTED g-ds will a lot better then the Wussie whiney clueless airheads we have “educated” today

 
Comment by speedingpullet
2009-10-27 10:10:58

And don’t forget there are many thousands of people in medical careers, who make a decent living in godless commie countries like the UK, where Big Govt pays all your medical bills…

But that wold be too simple.. ;-)

 
Comment by Stpn2me
2009-10-27 12:36:36

in godless commie countries like the UK, where Big Govt pays all your medical bills…

Are you talking about that endless pot of money in the sky liberals are always talking about? They never tell me where it’s coming from…

 
Comment by speedingpullet
2009-10-27 14:50:49

Its coming from where it has always come from, hon - our taxes. Its just a different way of doing it. We’re already paying for the poor, indigent and inept, just in the most chaotic and short-sighted way possible.

But if you feel that its somehow more ‘American’ to shell out money to companies that do nothing to make you healthier, and live like tapeworms on the interactions between patients and medical professionals, then go right ahead and fight for your right to do so.

And, not wanting to be harsh or anything Step - you’re kind of incidental to this conversation as:
a) your salary is payed directly by the govt courtesy of us working stiffs. Socialism, horrors!
and b) you have Tricare (or something similar) which us average working stiffs can only dream of. Or immigrate to. Even though we pay for it…..

Though, if you’re just kvetching about libruls to remind us of your libertarian chops, then don’t let me stop you ;-)

 
Comment by Stpn2me
2009-10-27 21:42:42

your salary is payed directly by the govt courtesy of us working stiffs. Socialism, horrors!

OHHH, here we go comaring the EARNED benefits of the military. While taking care of it’s veterans, I must admit it mirrors the socialistic model. But there is a difference. I would hope the sacrafice your military members undertake merits their health care, especially those who do it as a career and served in multiple combat zones. As I have said before, when I see the welfare indigent next to me here, volunteering for their nation, THEN they deserve the healthcare I get….

You may argue that americans deserve healthcare as a right. But all things are not equal. While a lofty goal, all things are not attainable. Our republic wasnt designed to take physical care of all peoples who show up at the door. It was designed to give you the chance to take care of yourself unaided and unencumbered by the federal govt. Healthcare for all is just one more chip that will destroy our nation and our national identity by trying to get us to be more like liberalized europe and the rest of the world. We were not designed that way, and trying to change us makes us as a nation go more down hill and away from our greatness as what has been happening since the 60’s…

 
Comment by ahansen
2009-10-27 23:44:18

You are 100% correct, pullet. Get the insurance industry out of medicine, fire 90% of the “administrators,” and let the people with the MD’s do what they were trained to do.

 
 
Comment by realestateskeptic
2009-10-27 10:48:22

Doc, here is my question as I consider myself a semi-smart, mostly informed person trying to sort out all of the cr** put forth by both the Dems and Repubs,

If the “public option” is “Medicare for all” or as Keith Oberman says “Medicare Part E” and the government can’t even afford to keep the current system in place (as costs are running rampant and now they are going to whack you 21% ??)

How the heck can a true public option work, especially given the sickest, poorest folks are likely to take advantage of it. Why extend a model that seems hopelessly broke?

Just trying to sort this out, politic free, as an economic and social/moral issue? Thanks.

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Comment by polly
2009-10-27 13:49:49

Docs can only refuse to take patients that have insurance with lower reimbursement rates (Medicare, Medicaid, new ones not yet created) as long as they have the option of only seeing patients with insurance that has higher reimbursement rates.

If everyone in the system had insurance with the same reimbursement rates, then the docs would have to take it or quit and live on what they have saved up already. Or refuse to take any insurance at all, but that discussion is a little further up the thread.

 
 
 
 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2009-10-27 08:01:23

A recent 60 Minutes story did the liberal thrust for nationalized healthcare no favors.

The exposé, “Medicare fraud: A $60 billion crime,” investigated what “has become one of, if not the most profitable, crimes in America… push[ing] aside cocaine as the major criminal enterprise.”…

I was surprised this led correspondent Steve Kroft to the obvious point, “This story may raise your blood pressure, along with some troubling questions about our government’s ability to manage a medical bureaucracy.”

[F]inally a major news organization was asking the right questions regarding the current epidemic of fraud and abuse within the government health care bureaucracy which is a preview of what can be expected once the federal government takes control of Americans’ overall health care…. [O]ne can only imagine the amount of corruption that will occur….

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2009/10/60_minutes_60_b.html

Comment by Skip
2009-10-27 08:54:41

I kinda of imagine the amount of corruption being about the same as it is today. A “Free Market” does not eliminate corruption.

Comment by measton
2009-10-27 09:22:16

The difference is that with Medicare you have freedom of information acts and good reporting of fraud ect.

Private insurance is a black box. In which money goes in, and over 100 billion is removed for things unrelated to health care.

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Comment by In Montana
2009-10-27 09:19:28

They probably saw the story as a rationale for “fixing” Medicare.

 
 
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-10-27 08:54:04

There’s more than one way to let granny die.

Cutting Medicare reimbursement so far that no one will treat the elderly seems to be the Democrat congress’ method of choice. But that’s not “rationing” and no death panels are required. Let the Docs take care of the problem by refusing to see ‘em.

Of course, that presents a dilemma for the Docs. If they aren’t treating oldsters, who are they going to treat? Go to any primary care office and look around at what constitutes the bullk of the clientele. Oldsters! Take them out of the equation and the waiting room gets pretty quiet.

Anyone that thinks about it for more than about two minutes will realize that the era of giving all of us oldsters every conceivable medical treatment, endlessly, regardless of cost, will be over as soon as the baby boom bubble hits the Medicare door. About five years I would say. Care is going to get rationed, one way or another.

Comment by Skip
2009-10-27 08:55:54

If you take the oldsters out then there will be too many doctors chasing the premium patients.

 
Comment by palmetto
2009-10-27 09:21:50

“Cutting Medicare reimbursement so far that no one will treat the elderly seems to be the Democrat congress’ method of choice. But that’s not “rationing” and no death panels are required. Let the Docs take care of the problem by refusing to see ‘em.”

Again, a form of social engineering and a possible solution to the graying baby boomer bulge. One of the dirty little secrets is that “entitlement” money is being shifted to the young, in the form of welfare payments (aid to dependent children) per child to families below a certain income level, where prodigious reproduction takes place, especially poor immigrant families, legal and illegal. Again, a system of rewards and penalties applies. You get what you reward, in this case a combination of poverty and reproduction. We are going in the opposite direction of China, which rewards its population for restrained reproduction.

What it looks like is an engineered phenomenon of eliminating financially dependent elderly through biological attrition, while increasing a future workforce of poor laborers.

Logan’s Stoop Labor, anyone?

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 09:36:40

I was think “Idiocracy” but the end goal is the same: a docile serf class ruled over by the velvet-fisted elite crooks in a crumbling dystopia.

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Comment by DD
2009-10-27 09:38:06

docile serf class ruled over by the velvet-fisted elite crooks in a crumbling dystopia.
Are you getting ready to write a ‘romance novel’? hehe

 
 
 
Comment by Cassandra
2009-10-27 09:38:59

“Go to any primary care office and look around at what constitutes the bullk of the clientele. Oldsters!”

You made me laugh Spokaneman. I’m a frequent flyer at the Mayo Clinic in Phoenix. At age 48 I am often the youngest patient in the building by 20 or even 30 years!

But I have to tell you, that particular sampling of “oldsters” have some serious money, judging from the contents of the patient parking lot.

Comment by Elanor
2009-10-27 09:52:25

There’s a good reason why Mayo opened a clinic in Scottsdale!

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Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-10-27 11:12:37

Why do you think it will be in five years for medical care to get rationed?

It’s happening right now, and has been going on for a long time. When an insurance company says no to a treatment, that’s rationed care. When an insurance company denies health care to a patient that is rationed care. The monster is here now.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 07:39:33

Roubini Says Carry Trades Fueling ‘Huge’ Asset Bubble (Update1)

Oct. 27 (Bloomberg) — Investors worldwide are borrowing dollars to buy assets including equities and commodities, fueling “huge” bubbles that may spark another financial crisis, said New York University professor Nouriel Roubini.

“We have the mother of all carry trades,” Roubini, who predicted the banking crisis that spurred more than $1.6 trillion of asset writedowns and credit losses at financial companies worldwide since 2007, said via satellite to a conference in Cape Town, South Africa. “Everybody’s playing the same game and this game is becoming dangerous.”

The dollar has dropped 13 percent in the past year against a basket of six major currencies as the Federal Reserve, led by Chairman Ben S. Bernanke, cut interest rates to near zero in an effort to lift the U.S. economy out of its worst recession since the 1930s. Roubini said the dollar will eventually “bottom out” as the Fed raises borrowing costs and withdraws stimulus measures including purchases of government debt. That may force investors to reverse carry trades and “rush to the exit,” he said.

“The risk is that we are planting the seeds of the next financial crisis,” said Roubini, chairman of New York-based research and advisory service Roubini Global Economics. “This asset bubble is totally inconsistent with a weaker recovery of economic and financial fundamentals.”

The MSCI All-Country World Index of global equities has surged 69 percent from this year’s low on March 9, while the Reuters/Jefferies CRB Index of 19 commodities has jumped 32 percent.

‘Wall of Liquidity’

An asset “bust” may not occur for another year or two as a “wall of liquidity” pushes prices higher, he said. In a carry trade, investors borrow in countries with low interest rates to invest in higher-yielding assets.

 
Comment by WT Economist
2009-10-27 07:43:25

I just got finished reading “This Time is Different,” an overview of past financial crises recommended by my wife (Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff). They see what we say — the run up of unsustainable debt and the housing bubble was a clear run up to disaster, based on historical precedent.

The history of post crisis trends is sobering. In the typical such crisis:

a] Asset market collapses are deep and prolonged, on average 35% over six years for housing and 56% over 3 1/2 years for stocks.

b] The unemployment rate rises an average of 7% over four years, and output falls an average of 9% over two years, before leveling off.

c] Real central government debt nearly doubles, with direct bailouts accounting for a small part of it, and collapses in tax revenues and the expenditures needed to prevent social disaster accounting for more of it.

Currency crises and high inflation often follow financial crises. So do sovereign defaults, which are very, very common according to the book. Direct default is less common for advanced economies that have “graduated.” But default via inflation or currency declines do happen in such economies. There is also the possibility (thought the book doesn’t mention it) of state and local defaults. New York State is run a lot like Argentina at its worst.

Our crisis started in summer 2007 according to this reckoning, so on average where would be another 2 1/2 years to go. But it is worse than average, and unlike many it is global, meaning we can’t export our way out of it (although, I would argue, that if the dollar falls enough we may be able to import substitute our way out of it at the cost of a fall in the standard of living).

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 08:23:38

“Asset market collapses are deep and prolonged, on average 35% over six years for housing and 56% over 3 1/2 years for stocks.”

As you noted, this is not an average bust. Given that housing prices roughly tripled in many parts of the US over the decade from 1997-2006, far exceeding the runup in previous post-WWII US real estate booms, should we expect the correction to take more or less than six years? And should we expect prices to drop by over 35% or less than 35%?

The answers are not whatsoever obvious, given the huge effort currently underway by the government to prop up housing prices. (For more on this, read the Simon Johnson / James Kwak piece on the First-time Home Buyer Credit which I posted below.) Were previous post-WWII US housing busts accompanied by such extreme efforts to prop up home prices?

 
 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-10-27 07:47:33

The SSM - State Sponsored Media - is unwilling and/or unable to connect the dots these days, so maybe we can help them out. Two stories or interest this morning - housing prices rise again; and consumer confidence is dropping:

CHICAGO (AP) — “Consumers’ confidence about the U.S. economy fell unexpectedly in October as job prospects remained bleak, a private research group said Tuesday, fueling speculation that an already gloomy holiday shopping forecast could worsen.
The Consumer Confidence Index, released by The Conference Board, sank unexpectedly to 47.7 in October — its second-lowest recording since May.

Wall Street analysts predicted a reading of 53.1.

A reading above 90 means the U.S. economy is on solid footing. Above 100 signals strong growth.

The index has seesawed since reaching a historic low of 25.3 in February and climbed to 53.4 in September.

Shoppers have a grim outlook for the future, The Conference Board said, expecting a worsening business climate, fewer jobs and lower salaries. That’s particularly bad news for retailers who depend on the holiday shopping season for a hefty share of their annual revenue.”

At the same time:

NEW YORK (AP) –”U.S. home prices rose for the third straight month in August, data Tuesday showed, a key sign for a broad and sustained housing recovery.

The Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller home price index of 20 major cities climbed 1 percent from July to a seasonally adjusted reading of 144.5. While prices are down 11.4 percent from August a year ago, the annual declines have slowed since February.

Prices are at levels not seen since August 2003 and have fallen almost 30 percent from the peak in May 2006.

The latest index shows a widespread turnaround with prices rising month-over-month in 15 metro areas since June.”

The SSM wants you to believe that housing becoming more unaffordable right now is somehow a “good” thing. Perhaps if you are a politician who is used to getting $500,000 a year from developers, you might think higher prices for housing is just what the country needs. It would seem the SSM puts the interests of the elite few above the interests of the majority.

Most HBB’ers can surmise that a paltry and unsustainable increase in housing prices at the cost of trillions of deficit $$$ and the complete corruption of the financial system is hardly cause for celebration. Couple it with the fact that most consumers already reject the “green shoots” BS, and once again, the Feds have managed to create the very worst possible scenario out of thin air.

“Mission Accomplished” for the hope and change crowd?

Comment by Jim A.
2009-10-27 09:37:26

Consumers’ confidence about the U.S. economy fell unexpectedly in October as job prospects remained bleak, a private research group said Tuesday… Why unexpectedly? While a 401k balance might affect a person’s long range retirement plans, the possiblity of unemployment is a direct link fear. Add to this that people can no longer HELOC themselves into the ILLUSION that they’re doing well why would anyone who’s ISN’T one of the TBTF types be confident? Just another sign of the disconnect that those running Wall Street and Washington are suffering from.

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 09:50:04

No, no - this is good!

Housing is less affordable = more serfs

Housing prices rising = more money for Banksters

Lower consumer confidence = fewer need for jobs = more money for Banksters and white collar corporate crooks.

Yep, all is well with the new economic model!

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 07:57:32

Do writers who are this bright seriously believe the first-time buyer tax credit is a temporary measure?

The home-buyer tax credit: Throwing good money after bad
By Simon Johnson and James Kwak
Tuesday, October 27, 2009; 12:20 AM

…the tax credit stabilizes the housing market, people say. What does this mean? It means that the credit keeps housing prices artificially high. But housing is something that all people need. Why do we want it to be expensive? Would we want government policies that artificially push up the price of food? (Wait, we have some of those already . . . but that’s a matter for another column.)

As of July, the real price of housing, according to the Case-Shiller Composite 10 Index (adjusted using the consumer price index), was still 20 percent higher than in January 2000 and more than 30 percent higher than its average for the entire 1990s. Now, there is a risk that a weak economy can cause housing prices to fall well below their long-run average. However, housing prices appear to have stabilized, at least for now, and at too high a level. That is in part due to the tax credit, in part due to the partial economic recovery we are witnessing.

What happens when you artificially prop up housing prices? Imagine the credit were expanded to all home buyers and made permanent. This would simply boost housing prices at the low end of the market by close to $8,000, since all buyers would be willing to pay $8,000 more. (Prices would rise by a little less than $8,000 because at higher prices, more people would be willing to sell.) Whom does this benefit? Not first-time home buyers. It benefits people who already own houses (and their real estate agents) because it’s a one-time boost in housing values. This would be just the latest chapter in a long history of government policies to boost housing prices — the mortgage interest tax deduction, the capital gains exclusion on houses, the extension of the mortgage interest tax deduction to second houses, etc. Each of these policies pushes up prices just once; if you want to keep pushing up housing prices, you have to keep adding sweeteners.

A temporary tax credit has a similar effect, but for a shorter period of time. It boosts the price of a transaction that would have happened anyway. It may create additional transactions, but is that a good thing? If someone could not have afforded a house without the tax credit, then what is he or she going to do when the tax credit goes away and the price of the house falls? In effect, the tax credit is a way of making houses temporarily affordable that would not otherwise be affordable, and we know where that leads.

Comment by Mike in Miami
2009-10-27 09:33:08

“This would simply boost housing prices at the low end of the market by close to $8,000, since all buyers would be willing to pay $8,000 more.”

Wrong! It boosts price by more than $8K since a lot of this tax credit gets leveraged. An additional $8K in down payment can easily turn into an additional $40K purchase price given 20% down.
It also has a psychological effect, better BUY NOW before the tax credit expires and you’re priced out forever. This leads to bidding wars amoung first time knife catchers.

Comment by eastcoaster
2009-10-27 09:41:34

+$40K seems spot on for my area. I say remove the credit and let the tumble begin! (Not gonna’ happen, I know.)

Comment by DD
2009-10-27 09:47:08

then wouldn’t it be even better for the economic recovery to hand every American family say $16K with no strings attached? Economists will quickly point out that it is more beneficial to hand someone money with full discretion over how to spend it than to lock them into a decision to make a purchase that may not best serve their personal well being.

PB posted this late the other day and it seems worthy of reposting the bits. ( ending the $8k or roughly doubling it)

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Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 09:52:08

“… lock them into a decision to make a purchase that may not best serve their personal well being.”

But this does best serve Mega-Bank’s well being, so that’s the path forward.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 12:24:28

Johnson and Kwak made a similar point to mine (but more eloquently and elaborately) in this passage from the linked article:

“Even at a price of $43,000, what are we getting? Given that these are first-time home buyers, and given the glut of homes on the market, most of these are financial transactions where a house changes hands in exchange for cash (and additional transaction costs). The $43,000 is not being invested; it isn’t buying anything for the public, like a new road. It’s just cash going into people’s pockets.

Putting cash in pockets does have a stimulative effect because some of that cash will turn into consumption. But as far as stimulus measures go, it has a low multiplier (the ratio of new economic activity to stimulus spending). By contrast, we could take the same cash and hire more teachers, police officers or soldiers to fight in Afghanistan. We would get more economic activity, and the government would get something for its money.”

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 13:59:32

Spot on. To take your point a step further, suppose that $8K is towards a 3% down payment (or whatever the minuscule FHA down payment requirement happens to be) for a household who wants to buy the biggest, most expensive home they can ‘afford.’ Suddenly the household potentially has an additional $8K/3% = $266,000 in housing purchase budget they did not have previously, provided they can get the cash to flow. If they bought with a govt-guaranteed loan and later end up going into foreclosure, I suppose the extra $266,000 is included in the taxpayer-provided ‘insurance claims payment’ that goes to the lender?

 
 
Comment by CincyDad
2009-10-27 10:11:46

“Imagine the credit were expanded to all home buyers and made permanent. This would simply boost housing prices at the low end of the market by close to $8,000, since all buyers would be willing to pay $8,000 more.”

I disagree with this statement. I think house prices would rise a lot more than $8,000.

I believe this because the $8k tax credit is being treated essentually as part of the downpayment. People who could not quickly come up with a normal downpayment (or what should be a normal downpayment) are suddenly handed one. As a result, the number of people who cross the threshold of ‘having a downpayment’ suddenly jumps significantly. There are suddenly a LOT more buyers in the market than there were before the tax credit. As a result, the increase in demand (amplified by leveraging) bids up the price of houses more than $8,000.

Historically (before 1999), government research reported that coming up with a downpayment was the single largest impediment to home ownership. By thowing everyone an $8k lump to augment their downpayment, that threshold is eliminated. I’m not sure what the new #1 impediment would be, but removing the old #1 would significantly boost demand.

Now, if the $8,000 tax credit was granted for the 2nd year you lived in the house, then it could not be used as a downpayment and therefore, demand would be much less affected. (people would probably borrow the $8k from a relative anyway, and pay it back a years later - oh well)

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 08:03:18

Since US housing has found a bottom, there is apparently no longer any need for the first-time buyer $8K $15K tax credit stimulus or any other housing price support measures from Uncle Sam.

BTW, a one-month price increase of 1.2% translates into an annualized increase rate of (1.012^12-1)*100 = 15.3 percent. Buy yourself ten houses now, or miss the next real estate investment boom!

Economic Report

Oct. 27, 2009, 10:28 a.m. EDT

U.S. home prices rise in August, Case-Shiller says
Prices down 11.3% in the past year in 20 major cities

By Rex Nutting, MarketWatch

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The market value of U.S. homes in 20 major cities rose by 1.2% in August compared with July, the fourth monthly increase in a row, according to the Case-Shiller home price index released Tuesday by Standard & Poor’s.

In August, prices rose in 17 of 20 cities. Only Charlotte, Cleveland and Las Vegas recorded month-to-month declines.

“U.S. home prices have apparently bottomed,” wrote Harm Bandholz, an economist for UniCredit Markets.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 08:09:20

Given that the housing market has bottomed out and the stock market is hanging in there around DJIA = 10,000, I am surprised consumers are “less confident than expected.”

market pulse

Oct. 27, 2009, 10:00 a.m. EDT

Oct. consumer confidence falls for second month
By Greg Robb

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — U.S. consumers became more cautious in October, the Conference Board said Tuesday. The consumer confidence index fell to 47.7 in October from an upwardly revised 53.4 in September. Economists expected the index to hold steady at around 53.2. The September confidence index was revised up from the initial estimate of 53.1. The present situation index fell to 20.7 from 23.0, its lowest level in 26 years. The expectations index fell to 65.7 from 73.7 in September. Consumers were more pessimistic about the labor market, with those claiming jobs are “hard to get” rising to 49.6% from 47.0% in the prior month.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 09:57:27

So long as home prices are rising, why does falling consumer confidence even matter?

From the MarketWatch front page:

u.s. economy
Confidence keeps falling
Consumer confidence falls for second straight month as fear rises among job seekers.
• Home prices rising |

 
 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-10-27 08:09:33

Gee, this is a green shoot….

NEW YORK, Oct. 27 /PRNewswire/ — The Conference Board Consumer Confidence Index®, which had declined in September, deteriorated further in October. The Index now stands at 47.7 (1985=100), down from 53.4 in September. The Present Situation Index decreased to 20.7 from 23.0 last month. The Expectations Index declined to 65.7 from 73.7 in September.

The kicker….

In fact, the Present Situation Index is now at its lowest reading in 26 years (Index 17.5, Feb. 1983). The short-term outlook has also grown more negative, as a greater proportion of consumers anticipate business and labor market conditions will worsen in the months ahead. Consumers also remain quite pessimistic about their future earnings, a sentiment that will likely constrain spending during the holidays.”

Let me guess - Citibank’s decision to jack rates to 29.9% didn’t have anything to do with that?

Neither does the gross and outrageous under-reporting of jobless rates by the government?

Neither does the incessant attempts to jack up taxes by state and local governments (instead of cutting spending back to, for example, year 2000 levels)?

Neither does the fact that the very banks who managed to play the “end of the world” card just one year ago, effectively stealing government guarantees and handouts worth some twelve trillion dollars, are now paying record-level bonuses?

Neither does the fact that Bwarney Frank and Chris Dodder are “furious” about the credit card companies rate-jacking people, but they in fact wrote the bill to allow it to happen?

Neither does the Federal Government’s outrageous and insane refusal to acknowledge that we have too much debt, including at the federal level, and you can’t fix a drunk’s problem by giving him a bottle of whiskey?

Many people consider The American People to be “sheep.”

It appears that The Sheep have watched a cadre of a dozen foxes (the billions of “campaign contributions”) and five sheep holding a vote on what’s for dinner, and realized that in such a rigged game the best choice is not to play, kneecapping the foxes’ ability to feast.

Beware if your thesis of “economic recovery” requires consumers to “go out and shop”, for it is damn hard to do when you have no job, your credit card interest rate was just jacked to 30%, you were laid off yesterday afternoon and you just got a foreclosure notice in the afternoon mail.
(Credit to K. Denninger)

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 08:14:13

I guess lots of consumers have not yet heard the news about the green shoots or rising housing prices?

 
Comment by mrktMaven
2009-10-27 12:36:42

Any Knife-catcher’s remorse in those consumer confidence numbers?

What have I done? How am I going to pay for this debt-trap?

 
 
Comment by Englishman In NJ
2009-10-27 08:21:14

Not that I’m advocating voilence or anything, but NAR members beware?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-loan-beating27-2009oct27,0,2378916.story

Comment by groundhogdaze
2009-10-27 09:04:28

The victims were loan mod agents, not real estate agents. The ornery couple should have just hired a gypsy to put a curse on the agents. The one where the victims get dragged to hell by an evil llama.

 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-10-27 11:13:55

The “loan modification assistance” biz seems to be full of fraudsters. Probably the same ones making the bad loans a few years ago.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 08:34:16

How many years have elapsed since the posters here first noted the negative correlation between the dollar and the US stock prices before the MarketWatch people finally mentioned it?

I hope the Fed relishes the “the luxury of imposing its monetary policy on the global markets” while it lasts, because my sense is that other nations’ top economic policy makers are FED UP.

Market Snapshot

Oct. 27, 2009, 11:27 a.m. EDT
U.S. stock market tracking moves of dollar

By Kate Gibson, MarketWatch

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — The U.S. stock market is paying more attention than usual to the movements of the U.S. dollar, with the greenback’s newfound status as a funding currency leaving its moves highly correlated to equities and other riskier assets.

The greenback’s status as both the world’s reserve and funding currency means the Federal Reserve “still has the luxury of imposing its monetary policy on the global markets,” said Dean Curnutt, president of Macro Risk Advisors LLC.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 08:36:32

Bulls are fond of saying “the stock market climbs a wall of worry.” Does it appear to anyone besides this poster that the US stock market is currently crawling down a slope of hope?

 
Comment by michael
2009-10-27 08:50:54

just an FYI i noticed on zillow.

person buys a 2 acre parcel for 500K…subdivides it into two 1 acre parcels and puts an asking price of 350K each.

zillow shows a “last sold” price for both parcels of 500K. makes you think you are getting a “deal” when you aint.

i know most folks on this board would figure it out on their own but just thought i would point it out anyway.

Comment by michael
2009-10-27 08:52:48

oops…a little bit old school…board = blog.

 
Comment by eastcoaster
2009-10-27 09:44:19

I like how zillow excludes sale prices that aren’t within their zestimate. I’m not talking about $1 transactions - I’m talking about homes that sell for a reasonable price (perhaps seller just wanted out and could take the fair price). I’ve seen it a few times recently.

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 10:01:42

Well, real estate only goes up, so when it doesn’t, something is clearly wrong…

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 08:54:19

Retirement Readiness Falls on Housing, Insurer Says (Update1)

Oct. 27 (Bloomberg) — Fewer U.S. households are prepared for retirement after the value of their homes and investment portfolios declined in the recession, Nationwide Mutual Insurance Co. said.

Fifty-one percent of Americans would be unable to maintain their standard of living if they retired at age 65, compared with 44 percent in 2007, the insurer said today in a statement, citing the National Retirement Risk Index it developed with the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College. The estimate is “conservative” because it doesn’t include medical costs or long-term care, the insurer said.

“The real problem behind this is that so many households were dependant on their home values,” Paul Ballew, a senior vice president of customer insights and analytics at Nationwide, said in an interview. “Once home prices came back down to normal levels, we wake up one day and realize we don’t have adequate savings.”

Americans are facing a decline in the value of their homes and other assets at the same time the U.S. government is pushing back the age that retirees qualify for full Social Security benefits. The average 401(k) retirement savings account fell by almost one-third in 2008, and people aren’t saving enough to make up the difference, Ballew said.

The U.S. median price of existing homes was $174,900 in September, 24 percent less than its peak in July 2006, according to the National Association of Realtors. The average balance of 401(k) accounts at the end of 2008 was $45,519, compared with $65,454 a year earlier, reflecting market losses, according to data collected by the Employee Benefit Research Institute, based in Washington.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-10-27 09:12:32

In short, the plan was to have someone else fund their retirement. Nice.

 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-10-27 19:25:21

This is the stealth killer nobody talks about. 55+ group who must keep investments safe have not gotten decent yields since 2000. They are making spit on their money. This group was planning yields at 7-8% in their retirement future. Double what they have/will actually get. Add to that the recent home value reductions and reductions on what securities they may have held. You can bet some even fed funds from appropriate safer investments in early 2000 to stocks due to the low interest rates - hence a double whammy.

Job losses will hit this group harder than younger groups too. 55+ unemployment is lots higher today than 30+ out of work numbers.

Only those who were not overextended and already well funded prior to 2007 will make it through this.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 09:04:17

Tax refugees staging escape from New York
October 27, 2009

New Yorkers are fleeing the state and city in alarming numbers — and costing a fortune in lost tax dollars, a new study shows. More than 1.5 million state residents left for other parts of the United States from 2000 to 2008, according to the report from the Empire Center for New York State Policy. It was the biggest out-of-state migration in the country.

The vast majority of the migrants, 1.1 million, were former residents of New York City — meaning one out of seven city taxpayers moved out.

“The Empire State is being drained of an invaluable resource — people,” the report said.

What’s worse is that the families fleeing New York are being replaced by lower-income newcomers, who consequently pay less in taxes.

Overall, the ex-New Yorkers earn about 13 percent more than those who moved into the state, the study found.

And it should be no surprise that the city — and Manhattan in particular — suffered the biggest loss in terms of taxable income.

The average Manhattan taxpayer who left the state earned $93,264 a year. The average newcomer to Manhattan earned only $72,726.

That’s a difference of $20,538, the highest for any county in the state. Staten Island was second, with a $20,066 difference.

It all adds up to staggering loss in taxable income. During 2006-2007, the “migration flow” out of New York to other states amounted to a loss of $4.3 billion.

Comment by exeter
2009-10-27 09:24:51

Property taxes are hovering at an oppressive level in NY. But everyone was quick to brag and boast about how much their house was worth…. I heard it day after day for years….

Hey NY house-debtors…… whatchya think now? Are you happy?

Comment by WHYoung
2009-10-27 10:27:56

Property taxes within New York City are actually much lower than surrounding suburban areas.

Since the city has so many renters they take a lot out of your paycheck instead.

Comment by packman
2009-10-27 10:32:57

So the landlords are aliens who don’t pay real estate taxes or something?

Otherwise the income tax isn’t instead of property tax - it’s in addition to it.

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Comment by WHYoung
2009-10-27 10:42:16

Browse through the multiple listing service for Long Island (mlsli .com), it includes properties in queens and brooklyn.

Property taxes are double or triple in Nassau County.

 
 
 
 
Comment by measton
2009-10-27 09:51:34

I’ll chaulk this up to the huge number of lay offs on Wall Street. The incomes are probably lower for the same reason.

Taxes have always been high in NY they are not the cause for the numbers you are posting.

Comment by WHYoung
2009-10-27 10:37:31

I the past decade or so, since NYC became “safer than London”, I think we’ve had an influx of “temps”.

A lot of people come here for a few years as phase in their lives: youthful fun, establishing themselves in a particular profession, doing it while they are not yet responsible for children, etc.
BUT many of them are not, and do not want to be, “real” lifer New Yorkers.

It takes a certain mindset to fall in love with (or become addicted) to this city. Many of the newbies could be living in any large city and not really notice much difference.

 
 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-10-27 10:04:29

“The Empire State is being drained of an invaluable resource — people”

If NY PTB were really worried about this they’d hunt down every bit of waste in the system and lower taxes. I won’t be holding my breath.

Also, is it possible these numbers present this way due to the deep Wall Street layoffs? Would formerly well paid individuals now unemployed stick around in a high cost of living atmosphere as the months ticked on? Or would they head to a cheaper location until things improved?

Comment by CincyDad
2009-10-27 11:19:56

I would think that people who enjoyed living in NYC would try to find a way to stay there if laid off.

I suspect that a great number of the exodus comes from Upstate NY. Think of Kodak retirees and the such. I know a lot of younger people who left Syracuse for economic reasons, but I keep meeting (in Florida) lots of upstate people who left at retirement age.

Something about shoveling all that white stuff in the Fall/Winter/Spring.

 
 
Comment by Skip
2009-10-27 10:34:10

How do they know that all the 1.1 million that left paid taxes?

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 09:11:16

Semi-off topic: The launch of the Ares 1-X was scrubbed today for weather reasons. I pray this rocket works, else America will probably sadly end up bowing out of space travel in the future; after all, creating economic scams is far more important than technological advancements.

What really angers me about all this is how they are talking about basically gutting the space program since it is “unaffordable.” Now, I admit that there have been cost overruns, but to claim that the program is “unaffordable” when it doesn’t even cost $100 billion is insane when compared to handing out trillions of dollars to bankers that produce absolutely nothing of value for the nation: no new technology, no high-paying jobs, no future… heck, not even a sense of national pride - nothing.

I guess it is clear where Amerika’s priorities lie - the bankers ARE the nation now.

Comment by james
2009-10-27 09:30:44

The problem is the price distortions caused by the capital part of the economy are everywhere.

Saying this isn’t affordable when it clearly isn’t causing some kind of resource restriction, is a symptom of deflation.

This will be a very painful period. The problem I’m seeing is the bailout money is causing worse and worse wealth distributions. Giving the uber-wealthy bankers even more power.

It is not a good thing.

 
Comment by DD
2009-10-27 09:35:24

Lobbyists and major global corps are the nation now.

 
Comment by Lesser Fool
2009-10-27 09:44:03

“when compared to handing out trillions of dollars to bankers that produce absolutely nothing of value for the nation: no new technology, no high-paying jobs,”

What do you mean? They absolutely do produce tons of high-paying jobs..

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 10:04:59

Hehehe… okay, you know what I mean: well-paying MIDDLE CLASS jobs, not high-paying looting jobs for the well-connected!

That, I prefer jobs that have some potential social benefit vs. those that destroy economies.

 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-10-27 09:50:34

As someone who watched the Apollo 11 landing in my parent’s living room the utter lack of progress in space flight is very discouraging. Back in 69 we thought that there would be moon bases and manned missions to Mars by now. Instead we have an unreliable fleet of shuttles that never worked as advertised (at least the Ruskies had enough sense to can their Shuttle program).

True, futurists back then oversimplified the technical difficulties in accomplishing these tasks, but just knowing that no real progress in manned spaceflight has been made in over 30 years is a bummer (unless we count the space station as progress).

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 10:11:23

Humanity could accomplish great things, but spending far less effort to swindle others has been the prefered choice for many years now. Canning the space program to leave more money to Bailout crooks is the next step forward on this self-destructive path.

 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 10:39:08

As someone who watched the Apollo 11 landing in my parent’s living room the utter lack of progress in space flight is very discouraging. Back in 69 we thought that there would be moon bases and manned missions to Mars by now.

Meet the great scientific crimper.

All our money is now going into the FIRE economy, nothing left for the “Blastoff” economy.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-10-27 11:23:51

I’m still hopeful we will see a lunar base and then be able to launch missions to Mars and beyond.

Pondering are you a member of the Planetary Society? I’ve been a member for a number of years.

 
Comment by Rancher
2009-10-27 15:29:26

“It has often been said that, if the human species fails to make a go of it here on Earth, some other species will take over the running.
In the sense of developing high intelligence this is not correct. We have, or soon will have, exhausted the necessary physical
prerequisites so far as this planet is concerned. With coal gone, oil gone, high-grade metallic ores gone, no species however competent can
make the long climb from primitive conditions to high-level technology. This is a one-shot affair. If we fail, this planetary system fails so far as intelligence is concerned. The same will be true of other planetary systems. On each of them there will be one chance, and one chance only.”

– Sir Fred Hoyle, 1964

Comment by packman
2009-10-27 18:21:34

When push comes to shove - we will make do with renewable energy. Production will be a lot less efficient (more expensive), but it will work.

Before that will be nuclear - which for all intents and purposes is renewable (depending on who you ask I think we have thousands of years’ worth)

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Comment by ahansen
2009-10-28 00:12:09

Sir Fred Hoyle lacked a certain imagination.

Viruses, prions, non-matter-based entities have likely already evolved off this planet–and probably back onto it. That old Fred didn’t deem this migration as organized or intelligent is a failing of his perception, not of their “technologies.”

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Comment by AdamCO
2009-10-27 09:11:52

minor activity in the market in this small mountain town. we still have a thirty year supply of houses, but anything under $200,000 is selling. it isn’t about square footage, it is about price. recently an 800 sq foot old house went for $175k and a 2000 sq. foot house went for $215k. similar condition. a 15yr old house at 1000 sq. feet sold for $165k. a vacant lot sold for $50k, less than half the price of everything else on the market.

everything else continues to sit. prices slowly being dragged down.

huge shadow inventory. local realtors say they are turning away most interested sellers.

Comment by DD
2009-10-27 09:36:43

local realtors say they are turning away most interested sellers.

adamco? Interested sellers?

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-10-27 09:44:31

The only places I see under 200k here are condos and townhouses. I can’t believe someone would pay 169K to buy an apartment. When you really think about it, that’s still really, really expensive. But people are still conditioned to think that is cheap. Something that needs to change IMO.

Comment by exeter
2009-10-27 09:58:25

“I can’t believe someone would pay 169K to buy an apartment. When you really think about it, that’s still really, really expensive. But people are still conditioned to think that is cheap.”

This is precisely what is keeping prices sticky. The entire RE/housing complex is fully dependent on the uninformed buyer and there are a herd of these dummies as a result of the 8k credit bs.

Think about it….. it’s the banks that are taking the risk up front, not the buyer so the price is truly immaterial to them.

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 10:06:22

Here in Maryland, “affordable” is considered anything under $400,000. That is, of course, insane. Even the wealthier counties have a median household income of only about $80,000 - but 5x income is “affordable.”

Comment by In Montana
2009-10-27 13:29:35

Median here among current homeowners is $54, among all residents more like $44k family and $30k single.

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Comment by eastcoaster
2009-10-27 09:49:01

it isn’t about square footage, it is about price.

I hear ya’! Heck, it also isn’t about the shape of the property. Neighbor sold for $250K? You should, too! Doesn’t matter that you have 500 less sq. footage, a smaller lot, and the house needs work. I tried to convey this message in an offer I made a few months back, but it was entirely lost on the audience.

 
 
Comment by Derek
2009-10-27 09:39:06

Wages and housing (asset) prices in the US can go down or stay flat (deflation), while the price of everything imported and energy rises (inflation). Much of this will be driven by the value of the dollar.

The overall downside to the economy is probably less dramatic than we think. We’ll drive smaller cars and buy less junk. I can think of many legitimate services I could use in the US if they were cheaper.

Problem is most people spend much of the little money they have on things we don’t make here as much as we used to, so even if the government succeeds in getting more money into circulation, it will only change hands a few times before it is spent on something imported and thus the stimulative effect is fleeting.

In the meantime, if you’re young and flexible and want to get ahead, go work abroad. Learn a language or two.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-10-27 09:40:32

Goldman WINS again!———————

How the Fed Bungled AIG’s Rescue, Enriched Bankers and Screwed TaxpayersPosted Oct 27, 2009 11:58am EDT

It is by now well known that the banks on the other side of credit default swaps sold by AIG got paid out at par when the government bailed out the insurance giant.

But what isn’t as well known is that by deciding to pay AIG’s counter-party in full, the Federal Reserve was reversing months of work AIG executives had done to convince the banks to take a haircut on their positions.

In the months leading up to the bailout of AIG, the chief financial officer for AIG’s financial products unit worked day and night and through the weekends to work out a deal with the banks that had purchased $61 billion of credit default swaps from AIG. AIG was trying to get the banks to accept as little as 40 cents on the dollar to retire the swaps.

Typically, a counter-party to a firm rapidly running out of cash might expect somewhere between 50 to 70 cents on the dollar to close out the obligations. Citigroup agreed last year to accept about 60 cents on the dollar from New York-based bond insurer Ambac Financial Group Inc. to retire protection on a $1.4 billion CDO.

But when the New York Fed stepped in on September 16, 2008,with an $85 billion credit line for the company, those negotiations ground to a halt. Beginning early in November, a team lead by Tim Geithner at the New York Fed took over negotiations with the banks. Geithner’s team offered the banks 100 cents on the dollar.

Bloomberg reports that the documents were similar to those drafted by AIG, except for one crucial detail.

Part of a sentence in the document was crossed out. It contained a blank space that was intended to show the amount of the haircut the banks would take, according to people who saw the term sheet. After less than a week of private negotiations with the banks, the New York Fed instructed AIG to pay them par, or 100 cents on the dollar. The content of its deliberations has never been made public.

The New York Fed’s decision to pay the banks in full cost AIG — and thus American taxpayers — at least $13 billion. That’s 40 percent of the $32.5 billion AIG paid to retire the swaps. Under the agreement, the government and its taxpayers became owners of the dubious CDOs, whose face value was $62 billion and for which AIG paid the market price of $29.6 billion. The CDOs were shunted into a Fed-run entity called Maiden Lane III.

According to a quarterly New York Fed report, the value of those $29.6 billion in securities declined in value by about $7 billion as of June 30.

So why did the Fed pay out so handsomely even though a better deal for taxpayers was already in the works? We’d guess it was financial panic. In the wake of the collapse of Lehman Brothers, the government was worried that the financial system was on the verge of collapse. It fearred making banks take a haircut on the AIG swaps would leave them with insufficient capital. In short, it was a covert bailout of the banks.

The biggest winners here include Goldman Sachs, which got $14 billion, as well as Societe Generale and Deutsche Bank.

No doubt regulators would say that paying full price was necessary. But it was not.

A far better move would have been to transparently bailout firms that needed the additional capital instead of doing it in an under-handed way. Even better would have been to have forced those firms with too much exposure to AIG to seek out new capital in the markets, possibly converting debt to equity and wiping out existing shareholders. Goldman Sachs claims that it didn’t need the AIG bailout bucks to survive–a claim whose truth we’ll never actually know because of the bungled operation of the bailout.

Comment by packman
2009-10-27 10:12:54

Well - I wouldn’t say “again” as this is something that’s been discussed for some time. However there’s a lot more detail than had come out previously. Thanks for the info!

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-10-27 10:48:09

Yes, _we’ve_ discussed it for the past year—but it is still really nice to see it getting aired in a more-public arena!

It’s good for the sheep to at least eventually understand that they have been fleeced.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-27 12:50:28

It’s good for the sheep to at least eventually understand that they have been fleeced.

Well, sheep grow their wool back each year, just in time for another fleecing. It doesn’t kill ‘em, they just look funny for a little while, but are mostly okay.
The problem here is, to continue the analogy, is that for many of the sheeple this situation is more like a freakin’ full-body electrolysis.
They will never grow back what has been stripped off of them.

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Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-10-27 10:25:09

“…We’d guess it was financial panic. In the wake of the collapse of Lehman Brothers, the government was worried that the financial system was on the verge of collapse.”

Previously:

September 27, 2008: :-)

Anger, fear and deadlock, then President Bush sums it up: ‘This sucker could go down’

“It was supposed to be the meeting that solved everything, but even the Treasury Secretary on bended knee couldn’t clinch the deal.”

“It was supposed to be not much more than a photo-opportunity, a demonstration of national unity in the face of economic crisis. There, for the first time in anyone’s memory, the incumbent President was meeting the two candidates battling to succeed him, together with the entire leadership of the Senate and the House of Representatives. The aim was to conclude the week-long deliberations over the plan announced by Hank Paulson, the Treasury Secretary, for a $700 billion bailout of the nation’s banks and to get legislation through Congress by the weekend.”

Cheney-Shrub: “We want him to succeed as president, we really do.” ;-)

BWAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! (fpss™)

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 09:48:32

Husband blames Lloyds for wife’s suicide after bank pulls family firm’s overdraft
Daily Mail Reporter 27th October 2009

A husband has claimed Lloyds bank was partly to blame for his wife’s suicide after it suddenly pulled their overdraft.

Mark Davis said the bank’s actions helped drive his wife Victoria to throw herself in front of a train earlier this year.

An inquest into her death heard her money worries came to a head when a £16,000 tax demand was hand-delivered to the family home on the morning of her suicide.

The hearing was told Mrs Davis had battled to juggle her job as company secretary for the family firm and coping with its debts with being a mother to two young children.
Mark and Victoria Davis

‘Blissfully happy’: Mark and Victoria Davis. He claims Lloyds bank was partially to blame for her suicide because it pulled their overdraft

Her husband, from whom she kept secret the extent of the family’s chauffeur business’s financial woes, insisted Lloyds TSB was partly to blame.

After the inquest, he told how they had been with the bank for years and had always had the overdraft renewed on a yearly basis.

This was suddenly changed to monthly renewals and then finally withdrawn, cutting adrift the family chauffeur car business which then went bust, he claimed.

‘We did everything they asked us to do and then they moved the goal posts and kept moving them. I am extremely bitter about it,’ Mr Davis said.

‘Lloyds bank holds some of the responsibility for her death. We banked with Lloyds for many years and had a very successful business.

‘We had an extremely large overdraft of £30,000 which was secured on our house and other guarantees. Previously it had been renewed annually but suddenly it was only renewed monthly and then it was pulled completely.

‘How can we run a business on that basis? I had a letter from the bank yesterday saying they were still holding a personal guarantee of mine and they wanted it paid.

‘But my company has now gone into liquidation and as far as I can, I shall make sure that Lloyds don’t get a penny.’

Mrs Davis committed suicide on railway tracks near the couple’s home in Chalford, near Stroud in Gloucestershire in May.

After her death, some 4,000 letters she had hidden away were found. Ironically, many contained payments from customers that would have eased their financial problems.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-10-27 10:52:21

Wow, what a world-view. Since when is credit a right?

If you can’t succeed running your business out of its own cash-flow, then your business exists at the whim of another—your lender.

Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-27 11:34:59

…then your business exists at the whim of another—your lender.

Yes. If you don’t own it, then….ummmm…you don’t own it.
What I mean is, I don’t think of myself as owning a house. I think of myself as owning a mortgage. One day I WILL own my house, but right now I’m renting from the bank, is all.
How is this reality not at the forefront of the brain of everyone who owes any lender anything?

Still a very sad story. Those poor kids.

 
 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-10-27 09:54:18

What’s this!? Property taxes going up despite falling house prices (and lower assessments).

The money quote from a Chicago Tribune story this morning:

“Figures provided by Houlihan illustrate how the upward march of property tax bills appears to have largely defied the housing-market crash as well as the steepest economic swoon since the Great Depression.”

The suburbs are really getting hammered this year. Just remember kids, it don’t mean thing if you ain’t got that tax base!

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-10-27 10:30:41

Holy macaroni, I forgot the link:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-property-tax-27-oct27,0,3685132.story

Good stuff, maps too. Lots of angry houseowners this fall.

 
Comment by Elanor
2009-10-27 12:06:29

I can hardly wait. :roll:

Hey, where’s Eddie? We need him to explain how lower housing values means a lower property tax bill! ;)

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-10-27 12:19:19

The “silver lining” stories were some of my favroites. Lots of people actually thought their property taxes were going to go down.

Have a look at those maps - some of the areas getting the biggest hikes this year are on the south and west sides of the city - and in some mighty precarious older inner ring suburbs. Areas hit especially hard already by foreclosures.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-10-27 17:35:52

Unlike most of you here, I work and don’t have time to post 24/7. But thanks for your concern about my whereabouts, I appreciate it.

Speaking of work, the little corner of my evil MegaBank client where I am working these days has had an opening for months. The position pays $120-140K DOE + benefits, bonus, etc. They can’t find anyone. Granted $120K in NYC is minimum wage, but still you’d think in this greatest depression since the beginning of time they’d find someone.

And when I fly back and forth to NY to visit said Megabank without exception my flights are 100% full. “But that’s because the airlines cut the number of flights” reply the HBB crew members. Wrong. There is a flight to LGA every hour on my airline. There is a flight to Newark every 2 hours. Just like there always has been, and on the same type of plane, a 757. Same number of flights and every single one is full.

And in NYC - home of the crumbling Wall St economy - try finding a hotel for under $300 a night in the financial district. Hell, on Manhattan for that matter. Not happening kids.

I swear we live in 2 worlds. My world is a vibrant economy that is booming everywhere I look. Your world is in 1933. Maybe John Edwards was right, there are 2 Americas.

Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-27 23:06:31

“I swear we live in 2 worlds. My world is a vibrant economy that is booming everywhere I look. Your world is in 1933.”

Your brain is altered. From what I’m not sure, but you’re slipping.

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Comment by ahansen
2009-10-28 00:20:28

You are absolutely correct, Eddie. And those two worlds are about to collide. It’s gonna be grrrreeeaaatt….

HIde your Piaget.

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Comment by In Montana
2009-10-27 13:42:08

the reappraisal in Montana was timed perfectly wrong..i think more from 2007, right before the bust, with a halfassed attempt at re-adjusting this year. It seemed that the REICsters, boosters and pols were simultaneously putting on a happy face about the market while arguing with the revenue dept chief that it was, um, actually quite troubling.

 
 
Comment by shibbo
2009-10-27 10:00:20

Just the other day I was driving through Marysville, CA, and passed by the Bank of America, which has been in the same building for years. There is a sign saying that B of A is not moving. But now you can find a Curves at the local B of A, and they have a big sign advertising that they have more space to rent. I have a picture of this if anyone is interested.

I was just wondering if anyone has seen this elsewhere? Is this some desperate strategy for B of A to make extra money –by scaling back and renting out space withing their banks? Maybe this is where the future of banking is going. For years now we’ve been able to do our banking at the grocery store. Maybe in a few years from now we’ll all be able to go to the bank, and get a work out while you’re there. And maybe you can go to yoga class and get a frozen yogurt at the bank?

Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-10-27 10:08:05

It’ll be just like the company store, where we all work for the banks, get paid nearly nothing, and live in serfdom to serve them. It’ll be great!

Seriously though, it sounds like a tactic that they’d use - whatever it takes to support Mega-Bank.

 
Comment by Englishman In NJ
2009-10-27 10:28:29

I wouldn’t mind a picture of some of the women going into Curves…..

Comment by oxide
2009-10-27 18:16:49

You don’t know much about Curves, then. Curves isn’t exactly Gold’s Gym.

 
 
 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-10-27 10:17:37

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2009/10/27/renters_get_little_relief_as_demand_rises_incomes_fall/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed4

Boston area rents going up! As the banks sit on their shadow inventory it looks like any new renters coming into the area will pay. For some it is too much and homelessness is increasing.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-10-27 10:59:27

I thought that the Fed was pretty close to done with buying Treasuries…

Treasurys hold gains after $44 billion auction
By Ben Rooney, CNNMoney.com staff reporter
On 1:14 pm EDT, Tuesday October 27, 2009

Treasury prices rose Tuesday after a surprise drop in consumer confidence raised questions about the economic recovery, prompting investors to seek safety in government-backed debt.

Investors were also responding to strong results from a $44 billion auction of 2-year notes, which is part of this week’s record $123 billion offering of U.S. debt.

The government received bids totaling $159.3 billion for the $44 billion worth of 2-year notes sold Tuesday. The bid-to-cover ratio, which gauges demand, was 3.63. That compares with 3.23 at the previous 2-year sale in September and a 2009 average of 2.84.

Comment by packman
2009-10-27 11:08:15

Where did you see that the Fed bought some?

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-10-27 11:20:48

Sorry—I have no information that the Fed bought some.

I just was surprised that the auction was strong, considering that I have been expecting the auction results to weaken once the Fed stops manipulating the market.

Comment by packman
2009-10-27 11:40:29

Yeah I would think so too.

We had some discussion last week about it actually. Some folks are pretty sure that the Fed is buying, but indirectly so through the banks. That would seem to be the case, given that yields are still way low even though so much has been flowing in to the stock market and to commodities since March. Where the heck did all this new money come from? It sure didn’t come out of Joe six-pack’s paychecks, being that an ever-increasing number of Joes are unemployed. And it didn’t come from foreign purchases, which have remained flat.

FWIW though - the Fed hasn’t stopped buying them. They announced a few weeks ago that they were extending their program, into 2010 I believe. Not adding to the originally planned $300B, but stretching it out.

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Comment by packman
2009-10-27 12:22:10

Along those lines - here’s a handy chart showing how all our new recent debt is funded domestically, not from foreign sources.

 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 13:24:58

Oops wrong chart. Having problems with imageshack - will post updated chart later…

 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 13:39:29

Here’s the correct chart.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 22:15:11

Does the massive shrinkage in foreign percent of US debt purchases pretty much explain the sickly dollar?

 
Comment by packman
2009-10-28 06:11:03

Does the massive shrinkage in foreign percent of US debt purchases pretty much explain the sickly dollar?

In a nutshell - yep.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 11:26:36

Yeah I saw the article - there’s no mention of the Fed in there. It just says “investors” bought them seeking safety.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 11:45:19

“I thought that the Fed was pretty close to done with buying Treasuries…”

They might just say that in order to gain the added psychological impact of ‘larger than expected’ Treasury purchases.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 11:12:11

The Census Bureau will be counting American noses in 2010 and many citizens will be asked to divulge all kinds of personal information. Think twice before you report on the number of bathrooms in your house or how far you drive to work in the morning. The Constitution doesn’t give Congress any right to nose around that far into your personal affairs via a census.

“The Constitution simply authorizes an enumeration, a counting of heads. Not an enumeration by race, Hispanic ethnicity, personal relationships, or by the manner in which a person occupies his/her home (”tenure” in census-speak). Not an enumeration by one’s labor force status, by health insurance coverage, by disability status, by level of education. Not an enumeration of the number of bedrooms, kitchens, cars, distances/times traveled to work, school. Not an enumeration of the amount of income made, or by the answers to numerous other nosy questions found in the American Community Survey. Just a simple counting of the number of people. Madison’s extensive notes on the 1787 Convention contain not one word about the delegates spending any of their valuable time discussing the issues of race, Hispanic origins, personal relationships, or plumbing.” ~Paul Galvin

The census has evolved into a marketing research tool. But that’s not what it is designed to be. Tell your Congressman that if he wants to pry into your personal affairs don’t do it hiding behind a census taker.

Comment by Skip
2009-10-27 14:11:21

Yeah, but your state, country, city, school district, etc. can qualify for more federal dollars based on the responses.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 12:05:07

Legalize It: Insider Trading Is a Victimless Crime, Says James Altucher
Oct 27, 2009

If James Altucher had his way, it would still be business as usual at Galleon Group. Instead, the hedge fund is embroiled in one of the largest insider trading scandals in history; the company’s head, billionaire Raj Rajaratnam, has posted $100 million bail and the firm is essentially ruined.

So why does Altucher, managing director at Formula Capital, think the Feds should lay off Rajaratnam? Simply put, he thinks insider trading should be legal.

Altucher says it’s a matter of pragmatism, suggesting insider trading is:

1. A victimless crime
2. Almost impossible to prosecute
3. A big waste of taxpayer money

If insider trading were legal, Altucher says, the SEC would spend their money on tracking down fraud and uncovering “the next Madoff or Enron.”

He also believes there’s an actual market benefit to insider trading. “If insiders, the ones with privileged information, are throwing that information into the stock price everyone benefits with a more accurate price.”

But of course, there’s a reason why it’s not legal. Allowing insider trading would annihilate the concept of a level playing field in the market. Altucher says hogwash. That’s just an illusion. “There’s already no level playing field,” he says. This problem of insider trading is “so widespread” retail investors are already at a disadvantage.

Interesting arguments, but I doubt they’d make it very far on Capitol Hill.

Comment by packman
2009-10-27 12:43:00

1. A victimless crime
2. Almost impossible to prosecute
3. A big waste of taxpayer money

I call BS on all 3 of those.

1. There are victims - that being every other shareholder, whose stock price was manipulated by the insider activity. For example a stock may be at $20, with some bad news coming out that only insiders know. Insider A sells all he has, causing the stock to drop to $19. Then the bad news comes out, causing the stock to drop to $15. Everyone who would have otherwise sold in the $20 -> $16 range now sells in the $19 -> $15 range, thus gets less money for their sale - money that was in essence stolen by the insider (one could argue at least - see below).

2. I worked directly with someone who was indeed prosecuted, and spent 6 months in white-collar prison. (I met this person later at a convention - it was a weird encounter) This person was small fry yet still got prosecuted fairly easily. In his case it was fairly clear-cut (he was stupid); obviously many are not so, but that doesn’t justify making it legal, any more than the fact that many murder cases aren’t easy to solve justifies making murder legal.

3. See 1 and 2.

However - that being said - a case can still be made for insider trading, based on a fourth reason actually - making it illegal results in stock prices that “lie”. See the article for an explanation. The jist is that insider trading would result in stock prices more quickly finding their correct value, and thus result in more efficient allocation of capital.

I haven’t thought about it enough to decide where I stand - but I do disagree with Altucher’s premises.

 
Comment by NYCityBoy
2009-10-27 14:04:06

James Altucher should be hung from a lightpost. That would be victimless.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 12:14:59

Obama adds public option to World Series.
Scott Ott ~ Examiner Columnist ~ October 27, 2009
News fairly unbalanced. We report. You decipher.

President Obama today announced his plan to add “choice and competition” to the World Series of Major League Baseball by adding a ‘public team’ to the traditional end-of-season championship duel.

The president said the public option was needed because the American League champion New York Yankees and National League victors, the Philadelphia Phillies, were “motivated by greed to put their own interests ahead of the interests of the American people.”

“Without a public option,” said Obama, “you would just see two teams trying to run up the score, without any consideration of the price a ticket to the ballpark, which is out-of-reach for so many Americans.”

According to White House officials, the public option team will step in and replace any team that begins to lead its rival by more than two runs during any particular game in the series.

If a previously losing team should begin to run up the score on the public team, then it, too, shall be replaced by players on the public squad so fans can enjoy “reliable, accessible baseball.”

“The problem with baseball,” Obama said, “is the irrational exuberance spawned by the inherent instability. My plan removes the element of uncertainty, thus reducing the cost of a ticket to the ballpark to a price anyone could afford.”

Players on the public team must meet a stringent set of regulations, outlined in a 2,700-page codebook, that ensures the public will get the highest quality of baseball available within the limited resources of the federal government.

If ticket sales should drop off, Obama said, it would trigger a “mandatory attendance provision” which would impose fines on local employers who fail to buy tickets for their employees.

Comment by In Colorado
2009-10-27 13:42:14

Seeing any sporting event live is a luxury, unlike when I had my gall bladder removed 4 months ago.

Comment by oxide
2009-10-27 18:40:01

+1 making a joke of human suffering is sick, I mean, truly sick. People who write this should be punished by putting them in homes where people don’t have insurance, to watch the suffering.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 12:22:50

News U.K.
Global warmer: cattle emit methane
Climate guru: Stop eating meat…cows harm the planet
27.10.09

Eating meat could become as socially unacceptable within a generation as drink-driving, a senior government climate change adviser said today.

Lord Stern believes dietary shifts are crucial to halve damaging greenhouse gases caused by methane-producing livestock, such as cows and pigs, within 20 years.

He told The Times: “Meat is a wasteful use of water and creates a lot of greenhouse gases. A vegetarian diet is better.”

The peer undertook the 2006 Stern Review, commissioned by the Government to assess economic challenges of climate change. He said: “I am 61 now and attitudes towards drinking and driving have changed radically since I was a student. People change their notion of what is responsible. They will increasingly ask about the carbon content of food.”

Lord Stern said greenhouse gases must be halved by 2030. He believes a consensus on tackling global warming at this December’s UN Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen could lead to soaring meat prices.

Jonathan Scurlock, of the National Farmers Union, said: “Going vegetarian is not a worldwide solution. We don’t have a methane-free cow or pig available to us.”

 
Comment by Reuven
2009-10-27 12:51:09

One of the things my local school district is doing is trying to get another “Parcel Tax” passed. They got one passed last year–even though it takes a 2/3 vote–and are trying for a bigger one this year.

Why do people vote to raise their taxes, especially a tax where they can take away your home if you don’t pay? Because it’s rigged so most people don’t pay it!

- Renters don’t pay it. The tax is per-parcel, so even if the landlord sees it, it’s divided among the _n_ units on the property so it’s not a huge increase per tennant.

- People with kids take more out than they put in. It’s unbelievable to see the sports equipment, weight room, athletic field, pool, computers, AV equipment these kids have in school. We had none of that, (and I came out just fine! :-) )

- Seniors are EXEMPTED! So these old biddies can feel good about “helping the schools” while they themselves don’t pay it.

The school district has been illegally campaigning for this on the tax-payer supported web site. (I called them on it, and sent them a letter suggested from the folks at the Howard Jarvis foundation; they removed the information but the damage is done.)

Anyway, I was driving home this morning from my Thai Massage (this *is* northern CA after all) and I heard busybodies on the radio talking about getting public funding to–get this–”Suicide Proof” our communities! That’s right: because some disturbed kids committed suicide (there were 3 suicides in one high school this past year), they want EVERYONE to pay and be inconvenienced. The particular suicide method they want to stop is “throwing oneself in front of a train”.

My theory: if they didn’t make HEROES out of the kids who killed themselves, fewer other kids would decide it’s a good idea. They have memorial services, grief sessions, public memorials, etc. So some kid who feels unimportant may decide to kill herself to become a “hero.”

Anyway, you should hear these proposals from the community–ranging from building bridges over grade crossings, to having the trains drive at “non-lethal speeds” (this is preposterous! A train moving at 1 MPH would do a great job squishing you flat.)

Comment by In Montana
2009-10-27 13:56:29

oh gag me…I’m so tired of having to pay for all the pathologies of the world.

 
Comment by Skip
2009-10-27 14:09:08

Thai Massage

LOL!

 
Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2009-10-27 21:48:17

“My theory: if they didn’t make HEROES out of the kids who killed themselves, fewer other kids would decide it’s a good idea. They have memorial services, grief sessions, public memorials, etc. So some kid who feels unimportant may decide to kill herself to become a “hero.””

In either ancient Greece or Rome they had a wave of suicides for many of these same reasons. (I think it was mostly females but don’t quote me on that - it’s been 20 years since I took the course on suicide.) The solution? Lay the bodies out in the public square absolutely naked. The suicides stopped. :D

Personally, I say get the kids off all stupid meds that are making them suicidal (but “controllable”) and yes, quite romanticizing it and they will stop.

“I love my dead, gay son.”

 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-10-27 12:52:40

This story is so bizarre I couldn’t resist throwing it into today’s bits. Who remembers the notorious Drew Peterson saga from last year? He’s another one of the clowns from the Land of Lincoln to make last year’s media circus.

“Drew Peterson, accused of killing his third wife, sued JP Morgan Chase in federal court late Monday, accusing the bank of illegally cutting off a sizable home equity credit line.”

Linky:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1848923,drew-peterson-lawsuit-chase-102709.article

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 13:56:53

Visa Swings to Profit as Consumers Abandon Cash, Embrace Cards.

Oct. 27 (Bloomberg) — Visa Inc., the world’s biggest payments network, swung to a profit in the fiscal fourth quarter as it raised processing fees and logged more transactions. The shares fell 4.5 percent in late New York trading as the company said 2010 revenue growth may be at the low end of its forecast.

Net income for the three months ended in September was $514 million, or 69 cents a share, compared with a year-earlier loss of $356 million, or 45 cents, that stemmed from the settlement of an antitrust lawsuit, the San Francisco-based company said today in a statement. Adjusted income, which excludes one-time items, was $552 million, or 74 cents, compared with the 72-cent average estimate of 26 analysts surveyed by Bloomberg.

The shift toward a cashless society, fueled by consumers’ growing preference for debit cards, helped Visa and No. 2 payment processor MasterCard Inc. weather the recession even as the U.S. unemployment rate neared 10 percent. They’ve fared better than banks that issue their cards because networks don’t make loans, insulating them from record defaults.

“Visa’s revenue and earnings should rise steadily as a result of the continued migration of consumer spending from cash and checks to electronic payments,” Buckingham Research Group analyst David Hochstim said yesterday in a note to investors.

Visa rose $1.12, or 1.5 percent, to $73.90 at 4 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The shares gained 41 percent this year.

Comment by packman
2009-10-27 14:28:32

Say what? Isn’t this directly contradictory with last month’s articles about plummeting consumer credit?

(packman scratches head)

Comment by packman
2009-10-27 14:33:40

Somethin’ ain’ right

Only thing I can figure is since “consumer credit” includes both credit cars and auto/furniture/etc loans, that the latter is what’s really dropping, while credit cards are still going up.

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-10-27 17:12:41

Credit cards = unsecured debt.

And they will walk, and they will walk, and walk. Expect “whocoodeknowdit” from the Feds.

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Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-10-27 18:03:27

I thought the concensus from a few years back was that CC debt and mortgage debt would swap their traditional characteristics—in that people traditionally would run up the cards to stay current on the mortgage (protecting their downpayment), but this time around would tend to stay current on the cards while walking away from the mortgage.

CCs have become more a part of everyday life and everyday transaction (air travel, rental cars, etc), and thus it is more important to consumers to maintain their utility.

 
Comment by packman
2009-10-27 18:26:19

And they will walk, and they will walk, and walk. Expect “whocoodeknowdit” from the Feds.

That’s what I figured as well - it’s occasionally mentioned but definitely hasn’t been a headline thing. I was short COF for a while for this very reason - glad now I got out.

I’ve been amazed at how credit card delinquencies haven’t been a lot bigger deal than they have. Yeah they’re up - but I’m surprised they’re not “bailout” up.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 19:04:23

“whocoodeknowdit”

Ubiquitous credit card defaults are only visible through the lens of the rear-view mirror.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-10-27 13:59:51

Some snake oil salesman was just on CNBC offering “equity protection” for homeowners. For 1% of the home’s value, they’ll facilitate a sale in the event that the loanowner is upside down when they need to unload the overpriced sh!tbox. Is it by mere coincidence that they waited for the lions share of price declines before offering up such a transparent scam? Whoever pays for this garbage deserves to be fleeced. Of course, according to the representative, they’re doing it for the benefit of the housing market.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-10-27 14:01:54

What a surprise!

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Top Democrats in the Senate have reached an agreement to extend the soon-to-expire $8,000 tax credit for first-time homebuyers, Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd said on Tuesday.

“We have that. Done,” Dodd told reporters. He declined to specify the details of the agreement.

But a Republican who has worked with Dodd cautioned that they were still negotiating on the measure, which could come up for a vote on Tuesday evening as part of a package that would extend unemployment benefits.

“We’re close, we’re close but I can’t get into any details until it’s a done deal,” said Republican Senator Johnny Isakson.

The popular tax credit, which has helped lift the housing market out of its worst slump since the Great Depression, is set to expire on November 30.

Dodd and Isakson want to extend the credit through June of next year and broaden it to anyone buying a primary residence, not just first-time buyers.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid had backed a narrower version which would extend the full credit through March and gradually phase it out through the end of 2010.

Dodd said that the deal would merge the two proposals.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-10-27 14:36:14

Subprime is contained. They just haven’t all been slaughtered yet.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-10-27 17:40:32

Any word on raising it to $15K?

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 19:00:15

Nah — letting the cat out of the bag on the increase to $15K would undermine the psychological stimulus which has been socially engineered into the announcement of the first-time buyer tax credit renewal. Don’t wanna undermine them animal spirits…

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 20:45:20

How is this going to stimulate further real estate price increases if they cap the eligibility for the “first time home buyer credit (cough!)” at only $800,000? (Oh — sorry — I just noticed they omitted the “first time buyer” in the description of the program, and now they are talking about “replacing” instead of “renewing” it…) How nice of our senators to give away free money to people who can afford to buy $800,000 homes.

Senate Close to Deal Replacing Homebuyer Tax Credit
(Update2)
By Dawn Kopecki and Ryan Donmoyer

Oct. 27 (Bloomberg) — U.S. Senate leaders moved closer to an agreement replacing an expiring $8,000 tax credit for first- time homebuyers with a smaller one that would expand access to so-called step-up purchasers, two people familiar with the matter said.

The deal would reduce the size of the tax credit to 10 percent of the sale’s price, capped at $7,290, the people said. The credit would be available on home purchases that are under contract by April 30, and borrowers would have 60 days more to close the sale. The existing credit is due to end Nov. 30.

The new agreement, which is still being negotiated and may change, would grant the credit to borrowers who have lived in their current home for at least five years. Lawmakers want to keep home sales from slipping as the economy struggles to recover from the worst drop in home prices since the Great Depression.

The demand for new homes and condominiums may increase by “more than two times because you’re allowing step-up buyers into the equation,” said Andrew Parmentier, a managing partner at Height Analytics, a research firm in Washington. “ You just opened up a whole new pool of people who can buy into those empty homes and empty condos that were built out.”

The income eligibility for first-time homebuyers would remain the same at $75,000 for individuals and $150,000 for couples. The income criteria for step-up buyers would be $125,000 for individuals and $250,000 for couples.

The credit would be limited to homes costing $800,000 or less. There is currently no price cap on home purchases.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 22:54:37

“Lawmakers want to keep home sales from slipping as the economy struggles to recover from the worst drop in home prices since the Great Depression.”

Why doesn’t propping up home prices constitute a violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act’s rules against price fixing?

“Identifying Price-Fixing Activities: Price fixing generally involves any agreement between competitors to tamper with prices or price levels, or terms and conditions of sale (e.g., interest rates for consumer credit), for commodities or services. Generally speaking, price fixing involves an agreement by two or more competing producers of a specific commodity, or competing providers of a particular service, in a defined geographic area, to raise, set or maintain prices for their goods or services. It may take place at either the wholesale or retail level and, although it need not involve every competitor in a particular market, it usually involves most of the competitors in the particular market.”

 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2009-10-27 14:02:07

It looks like there might be a bunch of thieving bastards at the NYFed. We can’t know for sure, of course, because they won’t disclose any information. So much for transparency.

What’s more, Q1 bank earnings was probably the result of backdoor transfers. Oh, and on top of all of that, a NYFed board member might have been involved in insider trading. No wonder people are losing confidence. The game is rigged.

In addition, the banking bureaucrats continue to claim they don’t have a system to allow TBTF banks to fail. Maybe they don’t, maybe they’ve imagined or concocted a special system for themselves, but the rest of us, we live in a capitalist system.

Comment by measton
2009-10-27 14:45:04

In addition, the banking bureaucrats continue to claim they don’t have a system to allow TBTF banks to fail.

I’ve got a plan that I’m sure would be supported by the majority of Americans.

It’s called a firing squad, line up senior management and give them a last smoke.

 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-10-27 16:34:48

“It looks like there might be a bunch of thieving bastards at the NYFed. We can’t know for sure, of course, because they won’t disclose any information. So much for transparency.”

No, you can be sure. It consists of nothing but lying thieves, and they have Congress on a short leash.

Evidently being ABOVE the law is one of the great perks associated with being a lying thieving NYFed mobster.

 
 
Comment by PerplexedContrarian
2009-10-27 14:23:10

An anecdote from Ireland

An acquaintance of mine is a builder. His accountant told him this story.
The accountant had €250,000 in the bank. He went to the bank to take it out. Was told there was a problem. they could not give him his money. His bank manager collected him at his house, and took him for a little spin. Took him to see a housing estate, and in iieu of giving him his money, offered him five houses in the estate instead.
Five houses. These had been going in the range of €300,000 - €350,000 before the boom.
He took the deal, and is now in the course of taking possession of the houses. A silly move, IMO, but this is what he is doing.
Wondered for a while where to put this. No proof sadly, so couldn’t put it in the price drop section. , but it seems that it certainly is a Sign of the Recession.

This is from http://www.thepropertypin.com (Irish equivalent of HBB)

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-10-27 17:06:57

Why didn’t he ask for 10 instead?

If 5 are good, 10 must be better, right? Right? RIGHT?!?!!!

 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2009-10-27 14:29:29

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9BJIANG0&show_article=1

This made my day - Representative Grayson of Florida, an outspoken freshman member of Congress, called a K Street whore at the Fed what she is - a K Street whore. Of course the Republican “leadership” have their panties in a twist about Grayson’s lack of decorum, but it’s incredibly refreshing to hear someone with the cojones to call out these manipulators for what they are.

The funny thing is, Grayson is called a liberal Democrat, but he’s allied with Ron Paul in demanding an audit for the Fed and otherwise instilling accountability in high places. That’s my kind of liberal.

Comment by Cassandra
2009-10-27 15:22:08

I saw that one. What I didn’t see was anyone denying the accusation.

 
Comment by Olympiagal
2009-10-27 16:42:28

The funny thing is, Grayson is called a liberal Democrat, but he’s allied with Ron Paul in demanding an audit for the Fed and otherwise instilling accountability in high places. That’s my kind of liberal.

Hahaha!
Look! Sammy admitted he might actually like a librull!
Next thing we know, he’ll be running around in the woods licking frogs and reading poetry and stuff. Oh, I just can’t wait. :lol:

Comment by Faster Pussycat, Sell Sell
2009-10-27 17:47:37

Heck, I’m a librull and yet I want to see home-pawning grandmas give handjobs by the roadside for a dollar.

Bloodthirst, schadenfreude and whisky! Now, that’s the real ticket one should run on!

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2009-10-27 18:54:22

Not that I don’t share those sentiments, but I could do without that particular visual.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 22:11:21

“Here I am the only member of Congress who actually worked as an economist, and this lobbyist, this K Street whore, is trying to teach me about economics,” he said.

BwaHaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!

 
 
Comment by Muggy
2009-10-27 17:15:19

Frick, I am so tempted to pick up some SRS tomorrow morning …

Comment by Muggy
2009-10-27 17:17:03

Think of the kids! How are you going to tell them you can’t have Christmas because daddy bet the account on triple and double leveraged inverse ETFs !?

Comment by packman
2009-10-27 18:28:51

Don’t do it.

I’ve lost my ShoRtS on SRS. It’s too frustrating - there’s a class action lawsuit in fact.

(well, my socks anyhow)

 
 
 
Comment by Muggy
2009-10-27 17:33:40

Ben, why no comments on the shirt post? Are you tired of pectoralis compliments?

Comment by hip in zilker
2009-10-27 20:55:27

you mean lats?

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 19:07:23

Are today’s savvy under-30-somethings as savvy as the crowd who knowed real estate always goes up when they were buying investment houses in droves circa 2005?

Cash in: Tricks for buying a home at the bottom
Barbara Corcoran shares insider tips to help home buyers in this market

Hulk Hogan: Why I almost killed myself

Oct. 27: In an emotional interview with TODAY’s Meredith Vieira, legendary professional wrestler Hulk Hogan talks about how a painful divorce and his son’s accident helped bring him to the brink of suicide.

Shark nearly bites another in half

Missing coed’s parents: our ‘worst nightmare’

Owen Migel’s submission

Huge pythons found in Everglades

By Barbara Corcoran

TODAY
updated 4:35 p.m. PT, Tues., Oct . 27, 2009

While others argue over whether this really is the bottom, savvy buyers are taking advantage of the best market in years to buy a home. If you’re an aspiring homeowner, here’s the know-how you need to snatch up a bargain — where to look, what to watch out for, and how to get financing that will make your home-ownership dreams come true.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 20:21:20

In case you are bored, don’t miss the “Burmese pythons invade the Everglades” story…

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 20:05:47

The too-big-to-fail era at Megabank, Inc is toast. There are simply too many smart, financially savvy individuals weighing in on the international banking situation who are not willing to allow the scam to continue. They know that we know that he knows that she knows that too-big-to-fail has failed.

READ THE HANDWRITING ON THE WALL (I assume most central bankers are familiar with the tale of Belshazzar’s Feast? ;-) )

The Financial Times
‘Too big to fail’ is too dumb an idea to keep
By John Kay

Published: October 27 2009 21:36 | Last updated: October 27 2009 21:36

In the 2007-08 crisis, many different kinds of financial institution failed or were saved only by state intervention. Large financial conglomerates – Citigroup and Royal Bank of Scotland. Investment banks – Bear Stearns and Lehman. Smaller retail banks without investment banking arms (but with active treasuries) – Northern Rock and Sachsen Landesbank. Diversified banks, such as Fortis, and specialist lenders, such as Hypo RE. Public agencies, such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. America’s largest insurer, AIG. Taxpayers will be footing the bills for a generation.

All these businesses exemplified management hubris and, in almost all, the failure was the result of losses in activities that were peripheral to their core business. Otherwise they had little in common. The variety of institutions is matched by the variety of regulators. The list of public agencies supervising failed businesses is much longer than the list of institutions.

There are people who believe that, in future, better regulation, co-ordinated both domestically and internationally, will prevent such failures. The interests of consumers and the needs of the financial economy will be protected by such co-ordinated intervention, and there will never again be major calls on the public purse. There are also people who believe that pigs might fly. Mervyn King, governor of the Bank of England has made enemies by pointing out that they will not.

It is impossible for regulators to prevent business failure, and undesirable to pursue that objective. The essential dynamic of the market economy is that good businesses succeed and bad ones do not. There is a sense in which the bankruptcy of Lehman was a triumph of capitalism, not a failure. It was badly run, it employed greedy and overpaid individuals, and the services it provided were of marginal social value at best. It took risks that did not come off and went bust. That is how the market economy works.

The problem now is how to have greater stability while extricating ourselves from the “too big to fail” commitment, and taking a realistic view of the limits of regulation. “Too big to fail” exposes taxpayers to unlimited, uncontrolled liabilities. The moral hazard problem is not just that risk-taking within institutions that are too big to fail is encouraged but that private risk-monitoring of those institutions is discouraged.

EDITOR’S CHOICE
Editorial comment: Competition rules - Oct-27
Economists’ Forum - Oct-27
Blog: Money Supply - Oct-07
In depth: Future of Finance - Oct-27
Fed chief warns banks on capital - Oct-23
US regulators struggle with reform push - Oct-27

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 20:22:16

Have any US policymakers yet weighed in on the ‘too dumb to keep’ concept?

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 20:37:48

Thank you, George Shultz. I frankly never imagined myself agreeing so fully with a Ronald Raygun cabinet member. History will smile on him for weighing in on the right side of this issue.

* The Wall Street Journal
* CAPITAL
* OCTOBER 28, 2009

Three Theories on Solving the ‘Too Big to Fail’ Problem

* By DAVID WESSEL

The biggest financial crisis in 70 years has bequeathed a to-do list of overwhelming length for bankers, regulators and politicians. Somewhere near the top is the “too big to fail” (TBTF) problem: The existence of financial institutions so large, so interconnected, so leveraged or so complex that the government dare not let them fail for fear of endangering the whole economy.

Investors who lend to or trade with these firms, for good reason, believe taxpayers will stand behind the debt of TBTF firms if things go bad. So, these firms can borrow more cheaply than too-small-to-save firms. That taxpayer subsidy — and that’s what it is — means these institutions can make riskier bets, collecting rewards if they win and sticking taxpayers with the tab if they don’t.

This is an old problem. But the rescues of Bear Stearns and American International Group and the uproar over the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy have expanded it beyond ordinary big banks. The past year has established a pattern: Executives of TBTF firms may be fired and their shareholders squeezed, but bondholders and trading counterparties will be protected. The already big institutions that survived the panic are now even bigger, and the obligations the government implicitly backs has broadened from bank deposits to bonds, derivative deals, even shares of money-market funds.

No one defends this. Promising not to do it again won’t work. Everyone knows what the government will do next time. The solutions fall into three strains.

The Mervyn King-George Shultz view: Bust them up.

Mr. Shultz, a former Treasury secretary, says that if banks are too big to fail, they are too big. Mr. King, governor of the Bank of England, is sympathetic. Noting with disapproval that the U.K. now has only four big banks, he said recently, “It is in our collective interest to reduce the dependence of so many households and businesses on so few institutions that engage in so many risky activities.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 22:20:43

The posters on this blog were pretty darned efficient in figuring out how overvalued real estate had become. I can recall being shocked when we had a gloom fest around fall 2006, making dire predictions for how far real estate would crash, then being shocked again when the more dire of the crash scenarios came to fruition.

* The Wall Street Journal
* OPINION
* OCTOBER 27, 2009, 10:13 P.M. ET

Efficient Market Theory and the Crisis

Neither the rating agencies’ mistakes nor the overleveraging by financial firms was the fault of an academic hypothesis.

By JEREMY J. SIEGEL

Financial journalist and best-selling author Roger Lowenstein didn’t mince words in a piece for the Washington Post this summer: “The upside of the current Great Recession is that it could drive a stake through the heart of the academic nostrum known as the efficient-market hypothesis.” In a similar vein, the highly respected money manager and financial analyst Jeremy Grantham wrote in his quarterly letter last January: “The incredibly inaccurate efficient market theory [caused] a lethally dangerous combination of asset bubbles, lax controls, pernicious incentives and wickedly complicated instruments [that] led to our current plight.”

But is the Efficient Market Hypothesis (EMH) really responsible for the current crisis? The answer is no. The EMH, originally put forth by Eugene Fama of the University of Chicago in the 1960s, states that the prices of securities reflect all known information that impacts their value. The hypothesis does not claim that the market price is always right. On the contrary, it implies that the prices in the market are mostly wrong, but at any given moment it is not at all easy to say whether they are too high or too low. The fact that the best and brightest on Wall Street made so many mistakes shows how hard it is to beat the market.

This does not mean the EMH can be used as an excuse by the CEOs of the failed financial firms or by the regulators who did not see the risks that subprime mortgage-backed securities posed to the financial stability of the economy. Regulators wrongly believed that financial firms were offsetting their credit risks, while the banks and credit rating agencies were fooled by faulty models that underestimated the risk in real estate.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 22:24:39

I thought GMAC was a home mortgage lender?

* The Wall Street Journal
* U.S. NEWS
* OCTOBER 28, 2009

GMAC Asks for Fresh Lifeline

Lender in Advanced Talks for Third Slug of Taxpayer Cash — at Least $2.8 Billion More

By DAN FITZPATRICK and DAMIAN PALETTA

In a stark reminder of how some battered financial firms remain dependent on government lifelines, GMAC Financial Services Inc. and the Treasury Department are in advanced talks to prop up the lender with its third helping of taxpayer money, people familiar with the matter said.

The U.S. government is likely to inject $2.8 billion to $5.6 billion of capital into the Detroit company, on top of the $12.5 billion that GMAC has received since December 2008, these people said. The latest infusion would come in the form of preferred stock. The government’s 35.4% stake in the company could increase if existing shares eventually are converted into common equity.

The willingness by Treasury officials to deepen taxpayer exposure to GMAC reflects the troubled company’s importance to the revival of the auto industry. Founded in 1919, GMAC has $181 billion in assets and is a major financier for 15 million borrowers and thousands of General Motors and Chrysler car dealerships in the U.S.
[Helping Hand]

The new capital would help firm up GMAC’s balance sheet and solidify its auto-loan business. GMAC provides the vast majority of wholesale financing for GM dealerships across the country, meaning scores of local distributors would be unable to bring new vehicles onto their lots if GMAC were to collapse.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-27 22:29:30

I’m not the only one who suspects price fixing measures are underway to prop up assets held by members of the Ownership Society (especially banks and their owners).

* The Wall Street Journal
* OPINION: BUSINESS WORLD
* OCTOBER 27, 2009, 7:03 P.M. ET

Washington’s Suicide Mission

The real problem is Washington’s riverboat gamble on saving the economy with free money.

* By HOLMAN W. JENKINS, JR.

Members of the Obama administration have taken turns deploring the billions of dollars in year-end bonuses the finance industry is getting ready to hand out. Never mentioned is what they think firms should do with the money. Give it back to their customers? Spend it on office decorations?

Firms can’t just wish away revenue sitting on their books. That’s an accounting crime. More to the point, aren’t surging banker bonuses amid a general downturn the proximate and necessary outcome of Washington’s recovery Heimlich, which involves doling out free money to banks and artificially goosing asset prices?

Er, wasn’t this the plan?

After all, whatever sloppy incentives are introduced into the mix, Ken Feinberg is on hand to fix them by fine-tuning banker pay. Voilà, Washington has figured out how to stoke a credit bubble with one hand while making sure with the other that it feeds only good and sound “long-term” purposes.

Of course, Mr. Feinberg’s clever calibration of carrots only works with the seven bailed-out firms under his direct control. As he grandly told PBS, “The private marketplace should be able to have the flexibility to adopt these programs on their own.”

Unpack the ironies and contradictions in that sentence.

Mr. Feinberg is no dummy. Everyone knows the folderol about bonuses is a substitute for tackling the political challenge of “too big to fail.” His every explanation has consisted of pleading political necessity over good judgment.

Yet the urgent problem now isn’t TBTF, or even banker bonuses. These are distractions. The urgent problem is the giant riverboat gamble that Washington can save the economy by doing what comes naturally—spending money carelessly, creating massive new entitlements without funding them, dishing out cheap credit to politically favored sectors, telling business people where and how to invest.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-28 05:17:15

I’m glad the central bankers have gone public with their debate on TBTF. After all, it was apparently behind closed doors that Megabank, Inc’s “heads-we-win, tails-you-lose” financial engineering strategy was hatched. The bright light of public discourse promotes economic justice.

Real Time Economics
Economic insight and analysis from The Wall Street Journal.

* October 23, 2009, 9:41 AM ET

Bernanke: Smaller Banks Not Necessarily the Answer for ‘Too Big to Fail’ Dilemma

By David Wessel

Mervyn King, governor of the Bank of England, says the solution to banks that are “too big to fail” is to have smaller banks. But Ben Bernanke, chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve, says he isn’t convinced that’s the best answer.

Mr. Bernanke, speaking at a Federal Reserve Bank of Boston meeting Friday on Cape Cod, said he would prefer “a more subtle approach without losing the economic benefit of multi-function, international (financial) firms.”

His comments came in response to a question from former Bank of England Deputy Governor John Gieve.

Mr. Bernanke suggested alternatives such as higher capital requirements against bank trading books, higher capital for “systemically important” institutions and a congressionally created process for coping with failing big financial firms in ways other than bankruptcy or bail out.

He also expressed interest in what have been dubbed “living wills” — plans that big banks would have to maintain for winding down their operations.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-10-28 05:28:54

Lots of good reading material here regarding the current housing market & general economic pictures…

Since many economists are offering the helpful insight that without the $8K credit, recent US housing price gains are not sustainable, I guess it has become incumbent on Congress to renew the credit, in order to sustain housing price increases. Whatever became of the “affordable housing” goal? Or is affordability somehow compatible with higher prices?

Real Time Economics
Economic insight and analysis from The Wall Street Journal.

* Secondary Sources: Dollar Death, Home Buyer Tax Credit, U.K. Recession

* John Reed on Glass Steagall: Then & Now

* October 27, 2009, 10:12 AM ET

A Look at Case-Shiller, by Metro Area (October Update)

By Phil Izzo

The S&P/Case-Shiller 20-city home-price index, a closely watched gauge of U.S. home prices, rose 1.2% in August from July in the fourth straight monthly increase, but prices remain below year-earlier levels.

For the 17th straight month, no area in the 20-city index posted a year-over-year price gain. That put nationwide prices at levels seen in 2003.

The index isn’t seasonally adjusted, and home prices are benefiting from the traditional increase seen in the spring and summer months. But even taking the usual bump into account, the numbers indicate some stability in the market. “The activity in this spring is far greater than what we’ve seen in recent years,” said Dan Greenhaus of Miller Tabak & Co.

Some economists aren’t convinced the gains are sustainable. “While many are interpreting the most recent results from this index as indicative of a bottom in home prices, we do not believe this to be the case,” said Joshua Shapiro of MFR, Inc. “Rather, this is probably a correction after unsustainable 2%-3% per month declines recorded over the autumn and winter months when the overall economy was in free-fall. Demand stimulated by the $8000 first-time homebuyer tax credit has also likely played an important role.”

Comment by packman
2009-10-28 06:17:46

The index isn’t seasonally adjusted

Um…. S&P/Case-Shiller publishes two sets of numbers - one that’s seasonally adjusted, the other that isn’t.

(both show increases in August).

Comment by packman
2009-10-28 06:23:01
 
 
 
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