The Housing Bubble

6% of profit margin, that’s the money the insurance industry makes. Doesn’t seem that much to me.

Well if 50 to 100 billion a year isn’t that much to you can you spare a couple billion.

Also note that profit is calculated after they pay CEO 10’s of millions, and sub CEO’s millions, and pay for advertising and investment management, and lobbying.

They strip 22-24 cents of every health care dollar goes to this type of crap vs something like 6 cents for Medicare and VA and other gov plans.

Another common misconception. My wife works for a Fortune 500 co. and actually they are ’self-insured’. CIGNA just ‘administrates’ the plan, processes claims etc.

There just isn’t a lot of room for profit in those types of relationships. Is there waste? Probably, but not nearly as much as we’d like to think. Again, anything to keep the topic off the -cost- of healthcare.

All those self-insuring big companies would continue to self-insure under any of the new proposals. Except, when they fire people and those folks are still unemployed 18 months later, they will have the option of buying into a private group plan or a government group plan (and no getting denied for pre-existing conditions) when they give up trying to get a new full-time job and have to go for 15 hours a week of consulting at one third or their former pay.

Tons of the angry people at the meeting with the congressmen were worried that someone was going to mess with their Medicare. Seems that they liked the government run insurance system just fine.

polly,

Even though we have no way of knowing ‘all’ of that is going to necessarily happen.., I’ll give it to you anyway.

My point was a great many people going off half-cocked over “the evil insurers” don’t even understand what their true role ( in many cases ) IS!

And granted, the scenario you describe shouldn’t surprise anyone.

Seems that they liked the government run insurance system just fine.

Everyone involved in a Ponzi scheme likes it - until it collapses. Then - not so much.

Technically Medicare isn’t a “Ponzi” scheme I know, but the principle is the same - it’s not self-sustaining revenue-wise.

(from May 12)

“Medicare is in even worse shape. The trustees said the program for hospital expenses will pay out more in benefits than it collects this year, just as it did for the first time in 2008. The trustees project that the Medicare fund will be depleted by 2017, two years earlier than the date projected in last year’s report.”

* Note - this actually happened in 2009 - way worse than predicted even in May!

Measton,

I get your anger here but it is hard to run any insurance business where you only use 6% of each dollar with out leaving yourself very vunerable to fraud and deception.

Just try to work things out from that perspective.

The government does do things in medicare at those kind of loading rates. They also get killed on fraud.

Good luck.

I worked in Fortune 500 corporate finance from 1998-2007. Health benefit costs went from $3,000 per employee per year to $10,000 per employee per year from 2000 to 2005. That’s right - the cost per employee more than tripled over 5 years.

This is one of the biggest reasons that big employers are so anxious to outsource workers and downsize their staffs, and it’s also why jobs are not going to come back without health care reform.

Here is what I don’t understand about that kind of STOOPID thinking.

So why did employers give people including executives any (or Cola) pay raises during those 5 years?

Hey You ‘re still making the same base rate as 7 years ago plus we gave you a raise of $7K, but it all went to paying your insurance so why did we stoopidly outsource the jobs?

————————————————–
This is one of the biggest reasons that big employers are so anxious to outsource workers and downsize their staffs,

Having spent much time in Canada, I’m gonna have to respond with:

[citation needed]

A Canadian here. Our system isn’t perfect, but it’s good. Waaaaaay above 3rd world standards. It varies from region to region. I’m thinking only very rich Canadians would prefer the US system.

I’m thinking only very rich Canadians would prefer the US system.

This is what I have heard from Canadians as well. FWIW, I know of no industrialized nations where the citizenry is clamoring to switch to our overpriced “for profit” system.

I think the problem is the US system used to be good. and for many it still is but not all employees are created equal even w/in the same company. Our family will never hit the “very rich” designation but all my surgeries were covered w/very moderate co-pays. A recent Marketwatch writer reported her baby cost her $700 in medical fees. A few years ago I paid about 2% of that cost. If I’d still worked at my previous employer w/only HMO coverage I would have paid hundreds more back then.

My friends with the CEO Dad don’t pay for braces and even for the Mom’s more cosmetic dental fixes. Our dental wont’ cover orthodontics at all. I’ll cough up 40% for my crowns. NY teachers are covered 100%. Our insurer reports they write hundreds of different policies for my DH’s employer. I’ve always assumed that meant different coverage for different pay tiers.

I think many with better insurance have no real idea just what’s going on for everyone else. And in the meantime simply dismiss the hubbub as whining. In general we’re a narcissistic nation. If it’s not affecting them personally, they don’t really give a crap!”

At the same time, I think people’s opinions as to their own coverage are more reliable than their suppositions about what others have. And just as with many of the bubble “victim” stories, there is a curious lack of information in many of the sad sack stories the media has been trotting out in support of “reform.” I can think of some outrageous cases of denial-of-coverage myself, but I don’t think they warrant *comprehensive* reform efforts, of which I am always leery. There is just too much self-serving crap that gets thrown into these monster bills.

“There is just too much self-serving crap that gets thrown into these monster bills.”

+100

Being over 65, my wife and I are on Medicare. We are both quite satisfied with it so far.

Folks, another name for Medicare is the “public option.” And if it’s good enough for seniors, why not let everyone in? For a senior to be against the public option is almost as bad as someone who would allow abortion on demand yet be against the death penalty. For the record, I’m for both.

HOWEVER, cost constraints will ultimately cause the public health system to be very different from what we have now in terms of availability and care. You will likely never see the same doctor twice. When you do see a doc, mostly likely English will not be his or her native tongue. For most visits you will be seen by a nurse-practitioner who graduated from a community college. Care WILL be rationed, there WILL be long waits for some procedures, and the politically-connected WILL go to the head of the line. None of this will happen overnight, but over a generation.

As long as you accept all that, no problemo.

“Our dental wont’ cover orthodontics at all. I’ll cough up 40% for my crowns.”

I remember having my first root canal about three years ago. Having no dental insurance, my dentist gave me a cash discount, and the bill was roughly $300. My neighbor, who had insurance, had a root canal done the following week with a different dentist. The portion he was responsible for, roughly 50%, was nearly $400, and more than mine!

I remember having my first root canal about three years ago. Having no dental insurance, my dentist gave me a cash discount,

Having dental ins, my root canal 5 yrs ago with cash discount cost me $1,600.

The seniors around the valley all like the medicare. So, along with Billincarolina- why not us?

“Folks, another name for Medicare is the “public option.” And if it’s good enough for seniors, why not let everyone in?”

Because it’s insolvent, Bill. Yes Medicare is neato for those covered right now, but it (and VA, Medicaid) requires shifting of true costs to the rest of us on non-govt policies. I don’t mind too much that it covered my parents and their generation so well, because they went through some sh!t in their lives. But if we expand to “Medicare for All” (which is exactly what some of the single-payers have been hyping) for us boomers, where are we going to shift the true costs? I don’t think the system can handle it.

Many docs are dropping Medicare patients and some are opting out of the insurance system entirely.

An interesting blog by a retired surgeon who wants universal health but is very critical of the current proposals:

http://abriefhistory.org/?cat=184

Because it’s insolvent

In 3 words - there it is.

Actually it’s not insolvent yet; back in May the projections were revised to show it being insolvent in 2017 (zero funds left), and running a deficit starting this year.

However they also projected Social Security to start running deficits in 2016 and be insolvent in 2037 - but surprise - SS started running deficits a bit earlier than expected - last month in fact. So being that those May projections were proven tremendously optimistic - most likely Medicare will be insolvent long before the recent 2017 projection.

GrizzlyBear!

That is such a cool, cool story! Can you believe it? I used to work for a company w/ about 2,000 employees and that is -exactly- how we were covered!

I think I got more benefit out of a cash-house plan than I ‘ever’ have out of an insurance ‘plan’. Thanks for sharing that.

It seems to me the real ‘fundamental’ is that pretty much every other advanced nation in the world spends less on health care per person, the people have longer life expectancies, and polls show higher levels of satisfaction with their systems than we have.

What’s more basic than spending less and getting better results? Is America uniquely incapable of doing what all these other countries have been doing for some time?

Montana and Packman,

Yes, Medicare and Medicaid are insolvent. That’s why I pointed out some of the ways that medical care will be FAR different once it’s universal. For seniors, it will ultimately be nothing more than the two P’s: Preventive and Palliative. That chart showing expenditure per patient vs. patient’s age which Rahm Emanuel’s MD brother is touting WILL come to pass. Any other model would be unsustainable.

Many years ago I flew back from the far east after a business trip. Seated next to me on the plane was a woman who was returning after an 8-year stint in Japan. We struck up a conversation about life in Japan and she told me the following. In all the time she spent there, she never once saw a disabled adult or child on the street, in a store or restaurant, or anywhere else. That was chilling.

Bill

Montana and Packman,

Bill

Yes.

To alpha’s point above “polls show higher levels of satisfaction with their systems than we have” - alpha, were the people who died prematurely included in that poll? I’m guessing no.

(”prematurely” meaning people who would not have died otherwise if given access to the “more expensive” health care in the U.S.).

Nonetheless - it’s not a stretch to believe that people are going to be happier with health care if it’s not self-funding - see the comment above about Medicare.

It’s the same reason why people like libraries and Smithsonian museums so much - they’re “free”. If people had to pay directly out of pocket on a per-usage basis, such that funding was self-sustaining, then they wouldn’t be so happy with them. What’s ignored in the “polls” is the lost opportunity costs - the other facets of society that are worse off than they otherwise would be because money is subtracted from them, via higher taxes and/or inflation.

Another STOOOOOPID idea;

Lets face it we don’t manufacture much anymore so missing teeth, bad breath, and bad smile is NOT GOOD for the New employment market

So what to do is you are out of work and no insurance and have very little money.

We need Leaders and New thinkers in America.

————————–
“Our dental wont’ cover orthodontics at all. I’ll cough up 40% for my crowns.”

But they spend less on health care per person than we do! So we are the ones suffering lost opportunity costs.

Yes, we are, but the opportunity costs are borne by those who are willing and able to bear them, not by the general populace.

(for the most part)

Also something not discussed much is that a large part of the reason we have higher health care costs is that we generally have a less-healthy lifestyle than most of the world. That lifestyle won’t change due to socialized medicine - in fact it’ll probably get worse.

So American health care costs per person won’t decrease under socialized medicine - they’ll increase, other things being equal (e.g. if end-of-life care wasn’t changed).

Americans who have health coverage (whether it’s Medicare, Medicaid, or commercial) don’t seem to take very kindly to being denied any treatment which they think they need (or have seen on the Internet, or in a drug commercial).

They bitch. Long and loud.

They sue the insurer (and often they win)

They raise hell with legislators (and they win there, a lot)

One thing they do -not- do is just quietly go away when told that a treatment is too costly or insufficiently tested.

This is what makes me confident that Obamacare will never really reduce per capita medical costs - there will never be anything like an effectiveness review with teeth.

We’ll keep providing every service that Congress thinks it needs to provide in order to win the next election, borrowing and taxing as needed, until the whole thing comes to a crashing halt.

THEN you won’t need any “death panels”. Death will happen by default.

it’s insolvent, Bill.

It wouldn’t be if the CONgress had passed a bill allowing Medicare to negotiate LOWer med costs etc, JUST LIKE THE MILITARY program, but NOOOOOOOO, the bill is designed BY and FOR the corporate INS corps.

And WHY do you who are so Protective of INS corps? WHY. They aren’t Free enterprise, nor capitalism as you “say they are”, they are crooks and making money hand over fist, and hand up your.. Why is it so beneath you to have the MONOPOLY taken away?
I just don’t get it. It is like you guys who are so damn protective of the INS corps want to protect the evil king.

stint in Japan. We struck up a conversation about life in Japan and she told me the following. In all the time she spent there, she never once saw a disabled adult or child on the street, in a store or restaurant, or anywhere else. That was chilling.
She is absolutely correct. I noticed that in 1974-77 and I notice it every time I am in Japan, monthly. It is amazing that they are so healthy and we are not.

Bill in Carolina,

Of course he is happy w/ Medicare. He thinks it is free. Wake the “F” up dude.

Man, my whole point got lost although 1/2 of it keeps getting picked up for rebuttal:

I wasn’t complaining that I had to pay for ortho or partial on crowns. I was making a basis for comparison saying a friend of mine has everything paid for even her cosmetic work and teachers have crowns covered 100%. So when people say insurance in America is good enough, unless they’re in the business and see the big picture, they can really only speak for their own personal policy.

Ahh the old two wrongs make a right argument. The military is inefficient so let’s make health just as inefficient. Brilliant idea.

Well at least you accept the premise that health care run by Obama will be a disatser and lead to the equivalent of spending $400/gallon. The question remains why in the world would you want that?

Strawman!

I never said that a wasteful military justifies an inefficienct healthcare system. Just pointing how how neo-cons like yourself value wasting money on pointless wars more than taking care of their fellow Americans.

Wow, lots of ignorance being posted about this topic. All I can say is — any system is better than none and to those who think our system is better than Canada’s or Europe’s - I can bet my last dollar you have never stepped foot out of your country (or likely your state).

Potential Buyer:

If your life depended on a package arriving tomorrow, would you send it via the U.S. Mail or choose Fed Ex or UPS.

Well, your life does depend on it. See you at the UPS store.

A) I live in Japan and the health care I have experienced here so far has been far better than what I received in the US. I won’t go into it all, but most of the issues back home were with denied claims, retroactive cancellation of policies, and billing errors. The standard of care was the same, but the administration was much, much worse in the US, and the costs were much higher.

B) I think that the left and the right are correct when it comes to US healthcare. The left is correct when they say that national health care works well in other countries, and the right are correct when they say it can’t work in the US.

It comes down to culture. Americans hate government and they have little sense of community or sacrifice. The idea of the individual sacrificing for the greater good is considered communism and despised. When that’s the prevailing attitude, it is impossible to have either good government, or responsible corporate citizenship. The choices Americans face are inept, corrupt, malfeasant government, or corrupt, deceitful, and ruthless corporatocracy.

Government can work, just not in the US. Americans can’t really pull off a massive social project like national health care. And the corporations will just keep robbing people any way they can.

Also, about those 6 percent profits…that’s only because multi-million dollar executive compensation is listed as an expense. The insurance companies show small profit, but the management is getting very, very rich.

Americans hate ..and… have little sense of community or sacrifice. The idea of the individual sacrificing for the greater good is considered communism and despised.

While that is true now, it wasn’t true during the 2 WW’s.
It was considered Patriotic to all pull together for the common good. The Greater Good was paramount to being a US citizen a proud patriotic American.
Now, it is just lip service and NO ONE, ala 9/11 “go shopping” encourages togetherness, being part of the greater good.
Just me me me me or as someone posted later on..
MINE MINE MINE MINE mine mine mine mine mine ala
Finding Nemo.
And for petesake, you certainly wouldn’t want the corp and vps/ceos to not take millions/billions in bonuses and profits.
Heavens to betsy, I worry about those Ceos/vps.
Not.

Regarding lack of disabled in Japan, absence of disabled doesn’t mean that they are healthier (or was I missing some sarcasm?)

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/04/07/world/outcast-status-worsens-pain-of-japan-s-disabled.html

My take on Bill’s comment was that he meant either:

- The disabled aren’t seen because they’re shunned by society (as your article indicates), or

- The disabled aren’t seen because they’re dead, because the Japanese don’t believe in spending extraordinarily to care for them.

Based on his “chilling” comment - I definitely didn’t take it to mean that they’re healthier than other places.

P.S. thanks for the link - that’s interesting.

Wife is Japanese. Been there six times. The disabled are, indeed, invisible. Shame if in public. Sad. Exists across all classes. A hidden unconnected and desperate sub-society. Very sad once you know of its existence.

“I asked this before…can you point to any medical advances in Canada in the past 10 years?”

For 2005 only:

2005 Developed the world’s first upper respiratory viral panel test that can accurately identify all respiratory viruses including various flu strains including H5N1 and the SARS Coronavirus. (St. Joseph’s Healthcare – Hamilton, Ontario)

2005 In the first trial of its kind in the world, researchers begin treating prostate cancer using a 3-D image-guided radiation therapy device that was developed in Canada. This non-surgical technique allows oncologists to visualize the exact position of the target and deliver precise external beam radiation therapy. (Sunnybrook & Women’s Research Institute — Toronto, Ontario)

2005 Key discovery in Type-1 Diabetes proves the repair process is present within the pancreas during disease development. Understanding the repair process could be the key to successful treatment. (Ottawa Health Research Institute — Ottawa, Ontario)

2005 Study determines that a specific enzyme, known as pro-protein convertase 4 (PC4) may be responsible for fetal growth restriction, the second leading cause of infant mortality in the developed world. Knowledge may lead to screening for the defective enzyme early in the pregnancy and provide the ability to monitor the pregnancy more closely. (Ottawa Health Research Institute — Ottawa, Ontario)

2005 Scientists show that early surgical removal of the spleen combined with antiangiogenic therapy, which arrests the growth of tumour-feeding blood vessels, may stop the progression of leukemia. (Sunnybrook & Women’s Research Institute — Toronto, Ontario)

2005 Using neuropsychological testing, researchers accurately predict which study participants will develop Alzheimer’s disease within five and 10 years. Previous studies were able to predict Alzheimer’s only for shorter periods of time; other studies showed predictions for 10 and even 15 years, but these did not indicate the predictive accuracy of the tests. (Sunnybrook & Women’s Research Institute — Toronto, Ontario)

2005 Identified novel mutations in the gene that causes Rett Syndrome. The discovery is now licenced as a test for the disorder and is available to the public. (Centre for Addiction and Mental Health — Toronto, Ontario)

2005 Initiation of first human clinical gene therapy trials for lipoprotein lipase deficiency. (Provincial Health Services Authority/BC Children’s Hospital – Vancouver, British Columbia)

Those are studies. Doesn’t take much to run a study, every university in the world does that.

I asked for examples of drugs or devices. Things like the next gen MRI or CT Scan. Any Canadian versions of Lipitor? Palvix? Advair? Singulair? Or any of the other drugs that tens of millions of people rely on every year?

This is not a ‘recent’ advance, but illustrates what the US needs from other countries: the isotope Technetium-99, used for many medical diagnostic tests, for which there is no substitute, and no US source.

50% better huh?

“In the August 2008 issue of Lancet Oncology, Micheal Coleman et al, are reporting that the US and Canada have the best survival rates for Cancer. Canada has a cumulative 5-year survival of 82.5% compared to the US’s 91.9%.

There is a lot of debate about the merits of various health care systems (public and private) but a 10% difference in survival is nothing to sneeze at. Canada showed less variation regionally and between races but the difference in overall survival is still stark. It would seem that cancer survival parallels the general impression of universal health care. Less variation at the expense of better outcomes. The data was from 1990-1994. It will be interesting to see if Canada can raise the bar to the level set by the US under universal coverage.”

“I asked for examples of drugs or devices.”

I’m sorry. I thought you were looking for things that made people healthier. You were talking things you can sell.

Eddie said:
Cancer survival rates are 50% lower in Europe and Canada compared to the US.

Some cancer survival rates are better in the US. No one appears to know which ones, and I’ve heard the same argument from many congresscritters over the last few months - which makes me think that its a factiod that’s been cherrypicked to bolster a certain viewpoint.

More importantly, things like infant mortality and life expectancy are abysmally low here - for a 1st world country, anyway.
You’re in a turf war with the likes of Romania for these kinds of stats, which may be fine with you, but makes a bit of a mockery of the “Finest Medical System in the World!” mantra.

Truth is - the US Medical system is fabulous for specialized and expensive procedures - surgery, oncology etc.. which need a lot of expertise and cost a lot of money.

For the bog-standard checkups and preventative care that 90% of the population needs - you suck.

Step and myself started getting into it a couple of B&B’s back - but I guess there’s two questions you have to ask yourself in America…

1) Is medical care a commodity just like any other?

2) Is decent and affordable medical care a privilege or a right?

That’s pretty much it - all of the arguments being played out are subsets of these two questions.

Pick your sides, guys

Also to consider, if you were developing new pharmaceuticals or medical equipment, would you develop them in Canada (small market) and then go into the US after toiling through US regulations, or the other way around? If the US health care system was nearly idendical to Canada, it wouldn’t change where the products come from.

Young female officer told me on Sunday, her 7yo cost $3.75 to deliver. Her 3 yo cost $7.50 to deliver. Her bun in the oven will cost her total of $7.95

She loves the military health coverage.

Who wouldn’t.

Cancer survival rates 5 years after diagnosis

Breast cancer:
US: 63%
Europe: 56%

Prostate:
US: 93%
Europe: 78%

Bladder:
US: 81%
Europe: 66%

So you get “free” health care (buy pay twice the taxes) and have a better chance of dying. What a sweet deal.

“More importantly, things like infant mortality and life expectancy are abysmally low here - for a 1st world count/ry, anyway.”

Here’s why…

In the US any baby delivered live is counted in the statistics of infant mortality. This includes the 20 or 21 week old fetus delivered live but who then dies within minutes or hours.

In Europe only babies 26+ weeks are counted for the purpose of infant mortality.

Ask yourself this…when you or your wife/gf gives birth do you want it to happen in a US hospital or a British hospital? Or even better in a Cuban hospital which according to Mikey Moore is superior to anything we have here.

My wife gave birth not too long ago. There were some complications. We had an army of doctors, nurses and machines that go BING. Then for the next 4 days I don’t think we went 4 hours without a doctor or nurse performing one test or another. Maybe it was a litlle overkill, but when it’s your baby lying there, amazingly enough you don’t ask yourself, “hey I wonder if this test is really necessary”.

And the whole birth including 5 days in the hospital, the team of doctors, nurses, tests, all of it cost me about $2000. I would have paid $20,000 and been happy to do so. Given a choice between the option to pay a lot and get the best care and getting bad care for free, I’ll always take option 1.

So, you point out 3 cancers where the US outperforms other countries (though, “Europe” isn’t actually a country, but that’s another story).

And, you prove my point for me - the US is world class at catastrophic emergency medicine, and not-so-much with the humdrum preventative care that 90% of the population actually require.

Or would do, of they got scans and treatment on a regular basis for a reasonable fee, before the surgeons and oncologists are wheeled in to fix the emergency.

“Maybe it was a litlle overkill, but when it’s your baby lying there, amazingly enough you don’t ask yourself, “hey I wonder if this test is really necessary”.”

But the important thing to remember is only people with good insurance, and thus money, deserve this kind of treatment.

“Given a choice between the option to pay a lot and get the best care and getting bad care for free, I’ll always take option 1.”

False dichotomy. Public health care isn’t bad. It may not be equal to the best available, but that doesn’t make it bad. My premature twins received top notch care by the Ontario heatlh system.

How’s this for a very real choice. You can have poor health care or eat.

“My wife gave birth not too long ago.”

Oh, great, Eddie’s been reproducing. Does that make anybody else feel like they need a drink?

She loves the military health coverage.

1. She earned that coverage..

2. Generics is almost always what we get, but even then, that is good.

3. It’s not always what it’s cracked up to be, like everywhere else they are moving to PA’s and not letting you see a doctor. (No offense to PA’s, but sometimes, we would love to have a doctor.)

4. Some military hospitals get a bad name and sometimes you have to wait a long time for a referral, just like it will be with socialized medicine. Personally, I would rather just have the insurance pay 75% and let me choose my doctor somewhere else and pay the difference, which is what I do sometimes.

From the Lancet
5YS for
Breast
US = 83.9%
Canada =82.5%

Colon Men
US = 60.1
Canada = 56.1
Colon Women
US = 60.1
Canada = 58.7

Prostate
US 91.9
Canada = 85.1

Now consider that we way over diagnose Prostate cancer, 50% of men over 75 or so have prostate cancer but only a minority die of it. We way over diagnose breast cancer. If you diagnose a lot of cancer that isn’t going to cause a problem you cause a lot of morbidity from surgery.

I suspect outcomes are the same when these things are considered.

As far as I know, no Canadians have went bankrupt using their care either. And paying top dollar to have a baby or any kind of surgery is not an option for 90 percent of us.

Just in the last 2.5 years I’ve had two kids and a wife who had back surgery and then another surgery to get at an infection from the back surgery plus a visit to the emergency for my 1-year-old. Total cost with insurance: $1,500 per child, $6,000 for my wife and $1,000 for the emergency room visit. That’s $8,500 that I’m paying down at a clip of $25 a month. You do the math. We’re a one income family making a little bit less than the median average nationally. I for one would welcome a Canadian-style health care system. Cause if anything else happens, I’ll have to go bankrupt.

“My wife gave birth not too long ago.”

Oh, great, Eddie’s been reproducing. Does that make anybody else feel like they need a drink?

He didn’t say that he was the father.

Enough already!
Mazel Tov Eddie for the new addition.

My only gripe is that I wish that every family could afford that level of healthcare.

Didn’t it cost that much? Why do you object to paying for it? You wanted it didn’t you? Did you care that you might have to pay a big bill some day? Did you get insurance to cover that bill that might come? What insurance options did you research to cover events like this?

Are you motivated to work hard to make sure you can get this kind of care? Are you tired of having to work hard, and just want life to be easier with someone else paying?

1. She earned that coverage.

Really? How is that?

Let me see, she was in 8 yrs. In San Diego full time.=Hard duty.
Got paid really well, got her teeth done completely with lumineers=good for her!
Getting complete education for dental hygienist Paid For and she gets paid to go to school- ie no bills at all she has to worry about. Good for her.
When she gets her Dental Hygienist degree she will work as civilian for military and get paid $125.00 per hour FT.
She is totally digging her 8 yrs in San Diego tour.

If you had said she earned it by being where you are.YES, but she and so many others are pulling easy duty AFAICS.

1. She earned that coverage.

So! Gov coverage is a GOOD thing? And here everyone was saying how terrible it would be. But now we’re told it’s a special benefit one must earn. A contradiction, perhaps?

One must join the military to earn the ‘privilege’ of government provided health care . At least we agree that it’s a privilege. A privilege that every other developed nation in the world seems to be able to provide to all their citizens. For less than we pay. And they live longer and like their health care systems better.

We used to have “basic plans, defined by the government” in many states. Until the chiropractors, dance therapists, naturopaths, Reiki practitioners, etc etc, lobbied non stop to have everything they do included in the mandatory minimum coverage.

dance therapists, naturopaths, Reiki practitioners, etc etc, lobbied non stop to have everything they do included in the mandatory minimum coverage.

Geeze what ins do You have?

Those aren’t covered in UHC or BCBS.

Competition hasn’t done much good in keeping the arrogant banking industry honest. The health insurance equivalent of credit unions seems like a good step, though (whatever that would look like).

we have a winner

I’ll have to respectfully disagree. One of the guys in my Guard Unit is a native American and genuinely funny guy. So much so, there’s times when it’s hard to take him serious?

But he said something the other day that absolutely floored me. He said, “Given enough time, and even modest resources, humans will ALWAYS find the most efficient way to do things!”

This is probably ‘most’ true in the home. We may pay fpr premium cable or mag. subscriptions etc. but… in the end we’ll cancel the things we don’t need/use. The problem is, with no direct incentive ( i.e someone ELSE is paying for it… )

Native Americans were never able to invent the wheel.

Where does one person driving across town in an SUV fit into his equation?

Skip, alpha-sloth,

Guys.., “I” thought it as more of an affirmation and validation of people in the work place and people in general.

O.K, I’m a sport, the native people didn’t NEED the all powerful wheel because you need -roads- to make it cost effective. ( I’ll check w/ accounting? ) If you’ve seen rednecks hunt from trucks you’d know why!

Using the-ever-so-popular-and-at-the-ready SUV as the root of all our problems.., I can only say that, implemented as designed they probably carry more people and more cargo more cost effectively than a rickshaw? If someone ‘elects’ by choice to abuse it, don’t hang that on ‘me’.

Easter Island? I think a better statement would be:

Man will be as efficient as circumstances force him to be. (But by that point, it’s often too late.)

Just saying that Native Americans dragged their belongings behind them on wooden poles. A wheel or two would have made it much easier.

That always made me doubt that any Chinese/Norseman who made it to North America ahead of Columbus ever spent anytime interacting with Native Americans.

“…invent the wheel. ” There is some evidence that that the wheel was in limited use. However there were no beasts of burden (horses, cows, oxen) to pull a crude heavy wheel as in Europe. Horses only came with Spaniards. Dogs and Llamas could only pull/carry a few pounds. Thus the wheel was not practical in the Americas.

See Guns, Germs and Steel by D. Diamond

Actually there were quite a few potential beasts of burden in North America when the first humans (later to become ‘native americans’) arrived. Horses, camels, and more. Unfortunately they were pretty much all hunted into extinction, as the early humans cut through the herds of animals unused to human interaction with the same rapacity that man always tends to display when encountering a seemingly endless resource.

North America ahead of Columbus

Just in case you got the OLD history books from the 60s,
a little secret, columbus went to Santo Domingo, not the north american continent. Shhhhhhhh. we’ll keep that secret between us. CC never got to the BIG ISLAND- oops cat is outa the bag again.

6 companies isn’t competition enough?

These companies are in competition for the young, healthy and employed.

No one in the south has any competition at all whatsoever.
Just one ins corp.

What exactly do you do again? What are your ties, hidden and otherwise? How old are you? From a wealthy family? Disclose which stocks you own and how much? Who are you related to?

Where do you get this stuff, besides Fauxnoise?

What in the world are you babbling about? No competition in the South? Unless Georgia is no longer considered part of the South that’s news to me as I’ve lived in this state for the last 5 years and have bought my own insurance for the duration. And when I shopped for insurance I had more competition than I knew what to do with.

You are either outright lying or haven’t got a clue about health insurance. Which is it?

From ehealthinsurance dot com using zip code 30303 (Atlanta)

Here are the options in the supposed non-competitive market:

Blue Cross / Blue Shield
Humana
UnitedHealthCare
CoventryOne
Aetna
Kaiser Permanente
Cigna
Celtic

8 options to choose from. But it’s all a monopoly.

8 options to choose from. But it’s all a monopoly.

It may not be a monopoly, but it is exempt from anti-trust laws.

Each state has its own anti-trust regulation. And since insurance cant be sold over state lines, that’s sufficient. If insurance could be sold across state lines, then you’d have a point.

Each state has its own anti-trust regulation.

And almost all the nation’s state attorneys general want to repeal the federal antitrust exemption.

Link

ince insurance cant be sold over state lines, that’s sufficient.

As well , IF they-INS corps really wanted to change these laws- don’t think for one second that they would have had CONgress change them yrs ago. But what this “can’t sell over state lines” does is even though BlueCross for example is in 2 states, it stamps you with EXISTING condition from one state to another.
Even though you don’t change companies.

Fraud. pure and simple.

The govt option doesn’t have to answer to shareholders. It doesn’t have to make a profit. It can print as much money as it needs to subsidize the plan. There is no way a private run insurance company can compete and survive.

And once the private insurers go under and 100% of the country is insured by ObamaOption….do you really think the govt won
t dictate the terms of insurance? If you think so, you’re very naive.

do you want these same incompetent imbeciles to run your health care system?
…
There is no way a private run insurance company can compete and survive.

Which is it? Is it going to be run by incompetent imbeciles or will it put insurance companies out of business?

I see the two as being mutually exclusive.

I do agree that gov. insurance - as with all things gov. - will be less efficient. What I hope it will do is provide a basic level of care that most people will opt out (or be means-tested out) of as soon as they can afford to, and force the insurance industry to clean up its act.

And once the private insurers go under and 100% of the country is insured by ObamaOption….do you really think the govt won’t dictate the terms of insurance? If you think so, you’re very naive.

No, just a product of the UK’s National Health Service, thank all things holy. The rest of the developed world is looking at the US at the moment and wondering what’s been put in the water, for a populace to rail so hard against their own self-interests and for the benefit of MagaCorp.

I get it now - its more important to keep a healthy profit going for the HICs than it is to provide affordable healthcare for the electorate!
The spice must flow, eh?

So, you consider healthcare to be a commodity just like any other, and a privilege rather than a right?

No harm no foul if that’s what you think. Though, I disagree with you, profoundly.

And I get pissed off when people such as yourself try to make out I’m batsh!t insane for not thinking the same way that you do, but at least you’re being honest.

At least I know where you’re coming from now.

Imagine if every soldier used his moral compass and refused to participate in these wars

Imagine if there was an immediate threat to the nation and every soldier refused to fight and there was a threat to YOUR way of life and family…would you like THAT?

but they are killing innocent people

Rest assured, the “people” I met last week were not “innocent”. If it were up to them, I wouldnt be talking to you right now…

americans can have cheap oil.

There’s oil here? I thought we invaded for the heroin..

Hey, I’ve got an idea. Imagine if Americans were to elect a President that promises to get our boys out of there.

and do you really think we are getting cheap oil from Afganistan?

django,

I think you need a new dictionary. You obviously don’t know what the word imperialist means.

It’s worth noting that Ron Paul got more support from active-duty servicemembers than any of the other GOP Presidential contenders. He, of course, is not a fan of Pax Americana and all our ruinously expensive globo-cop and nation-building schemes.

“‘Imagine if every soldier used his moral compass and refused to participate in these wars…’

Imagine if there was an immediate threat to the nation and every soldier refused to fight and there was a threat to YOUR way of life and family…would you like THAT?”

Stpn2me –
As a former officer, I appreciate your national service and hope that you and your men stay safe. However, I believe that what the author of the original comment is saying is that there was no immediate threat to the nation in the first place. Thus, your argument that this (these) wars are “just” based on the principles that some wars are “just” runs out of logical road fairly quickly, even with the emphasis that the author think about his/her family.

I realize that you are in a tough spot, but it’s no reason to reach for the straw man, “what-about-the-children” type argument.

That said, and this is directed to those who think that we are not in Afghanistan for energy (or at least a larger geo-political issue), what are we doing in Central Asia?

– Hunting the turrists? Please.
– Bringing democracy to the people (who have no history of it and have not fought for it themselves)? Now who’s being naive?
– WMD?
– War on Drugs?
– Fighting them there so that we don’t have to fight them here? Lordy.
– If we don’t “win” in Afghanistan, then Pakistan will fall, then India…? Sounds like a modern domino theory to me.

I’ve read The Great Game by Peter Hopkirk and I still don’t get it.
Is it to put Iran between the pincers for (some reason)?
Is it right of way for a pipeline?
Is it a threat to Russia? A threat to China?

And let’s say that it’s to put Iran between the pincers. What is the greater motive of that? Can someone explain it to me?

MrBubble

Ignore the pacifist free rider troll.

“Ignore the pacifist free rider troll.”

Or, ignore the Taliban PSYOPS troll.

But if the people from another country came to our country to save us from the Fed and our banks and our gov’t, wouldn’t we shoot them? Then they’d be blogging about us being the bad guys.

“I don’t think anyone should support the Imperialist ambition of our country”

With U.S. deployments (permanent airbases) in Afghanistan and Iraq you will find that Iran is effectively surrounded if you look on a map. This is meant to keep Israel safe. Stpn2me is really working for Tel Aviv, but his pastor won’t tell him. Heroin interdiction, oil reserves, etc., are a sideshow activity for those who don’t know any better.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/26/AR2009102603394.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2009102603447

Matthew Hoh, a foreign service officer and former Marine officer, has become the first US official to resign in protest over the Afghanistan war. He’s no pacifist - nor am I - but every American who seeks to understand the open-ended nature of our involvement in Afghanistan should read his principled and eloquent letter of resignation (included in this Washington Post article).

globo-cop ??

+1 Sammy…

“Imagine if every soldier used his moral compass and refused to participate in these wars”

Isn’t a situation where the milatary does not follow orders considered anarchy?

wiki:

Anarchism is a political philosophy encompassing theories and attitudes which consider the state, as compulsory government, to be unnecessary, harmful, and/or undesirable, and favors the absence of the state (anarchy).[1][2][3][4][5]

Specific anarchists may have additional criteria for what constitutes anarchism, and they often disagree with each other on what these criteria are. According to The Oxford Companion to Philosophy, “there is no single defining position that all anarchists hold, and those considered anarchists at best share a certain family resemblance.”[6]

Everyone gets tired of war, even us neocons. So why didn’t Obama have the cojones to run on withdrawal, which is what he really wanted to do? He’s really got his nutz in a wringer now.

“Isn’t a situation where the milatary does not follow orders considered anarchy?”

If the military doesn’t follow the orders of government, then the military is the government.

There are two valid points of view on what we should do in Afghanistan, just as there are/were on Iraq.

The first POV is that we should do whatever it takes to win the war. That is mine.

The second POV is that we should get out. That is not my view, but it’s consistent and I respect it.

“Choosing” to compromise between the two views is apparently what Obama is doing. It is what LBJ and Nixon did in Vietnam. It is what Dubya did in Iraq 2005-2006. It will end no better.

Let’s get our folks out of there!

Step,
Do you think you could send me one of those huge spiders?

Stpn2me

Do you have a good opinion of the anysoldier(dot)com program for sending care packages?

I’m fine….

I am an officer..my lower enlisted troops need it more

Well, isn’t that special.

Do you think you could send me one of those huge spiders?

They sell those and scorpions encased in glass, no problem. I gave one to my 9 year old son during my last tour and he carried it with him wherever he went.

As a former officer, I appreciate your national service

As a current officer, I salute your past service and paving the way for me…

With U.S. deployments (permanent airbases) in Afghanistan and Iraq you will find that Iran is effectively surrounded if you look on a map.

True, and thats bad, how? You are angry because your country has an advantage over it’s adversaries? That’s the problem I have with most anti war types, it seems they want us to lose at everything….

Enjoy killing those imaginary terrorists in cave.

In response to the comment below, they are NOT imaginary, believe me. If they were, please tell me who is cutting off fingers the afghans used to vote with…eh? Are they using imaginary knives? How you can defend THAT I will never understand.

U enjoy feeling macho with those big guns blasting
poor innocent people because u have the might of the US army and technology with u.

I can tell you have never been here and engaged the men we fight. Most of the time, it’s AK-47 against M-4 and 9mm. Get your facts straight.

U r not in Afghanistan t save us .

No sir, I am here to ensure the afghans can vote for their own govt and worship the way they please. I am here to ensure they dont get their heads cut off for not praying 7 times a day. I am here to ensure your girlfriend or wife can wear short shorts if she wants to and not have to wear a burka or walk five paces behind you.

its not about muslims, or middle eastern or even saudis..its about their insane religion.

+10000

anti war types, it seems they want us to lose at everything….

Nope, never said, that and war is when it is necessary. Not a made up one in another country. When it is here- got my gun too, when it is not and nothing is being threatened here or we are being lied to.. nope. But “anti war types” as you myopically call them do not want to lose at anything especially where our men and woman’s lives are concerned.

Basta.

So. I guess Sept 11 is long forgotten.

“The battle of man against power is the battle of memory against forgetting.”… who said that?

Keep out of harms way.

For all y’all out there. The isolationist dream died about 70 years ago.

Afganistan is hours away.

“With U.S. deployments (permanent airbases) in Afghanistan and Iraq you will find that Iran is effectively surrounded if you look on a map.”

“True, and thats bad, how? You are angry because your country has an advantage over it’s adversaries? That’s the problem I have with most anti war types, it seems they want us to lose at everything…”

Were it not for Israel’s empire policies Iran would not be such a threat to the U.S., IMHO. In addition, I never said it was good or bad; just stating the case. I’d rather see our tax money spent at home, maybe health care or infrastructure.

“I am an officer..my lower enlisted troops…”

Why not, my enlisted troops? It’s easy to see that you’re an REMF soldier. Any officer serving a combat arms MOS would never use “lower” to explain those in his charge.

u r

lol

U nd 2 lrn 2 tp. Or are you posting from a cell phone?

X-philly,

+1 ( and welcome to 2008! dude? )

Oh and tell the boys to keep rolling and get this Series over lickety split!

U r delusional.

django:

We are fighting the wrong war its not about muslims, or middle eastern or even saudis..its about their insane religion. We dont have the guts to fight a religious Jihad against them

————-
. our policies are making the Muslims hate us even more.

Oh and tell the boys to keep rolling and get this Series over lickety split!

Cliff Lee is a stud.

X-philly,

( Sush! NYY fan in da’ house? )

The ghost of Toyko Rose.

We should fight all religions. End the human mind virus.

Except that that particular constitution forbade the type of change that was being implemented. There is a long analysis in the library of congress, and they agree that the outster of Manuel Zelaya was constitutional. What was not constitutional was his exile.
It is even worse when you consider that Venezuela is the one pushing for Manuel Zelaya’s return, and the US is being manipulated to follow allong.

The entire O.A.S. is pushing for Zelaya’s return, many of our European “allies” are too.

I’m stunned by the level of stupidity of those who fall for media manufactured hobgoblins like Hugo Chavez.

LOL - I’m sure the Venezuelans would love to here you say that. I’ve known some who have fled the country in fear for their lives. He is very much a repressive dictator, not a “media manufactured hobgoblin”.

Hmmm… That’s odd. We had missions week in our church last month and we had a missionary from Venezuala visit for a the entire week. According to he and his wife, “the mainland media has made Chavez more popular with the public than ever…. they love him”.

So much for “fleeing the country”.

Liberals admire leftist dictators and would very much like the U.S. to be run by one.

lmao…. case in point of said stupidity??? Look no further than the post above this one.

Conservatives admire rightist dictators and would very much like the U.S. to be run by one.
===
The statement above is just as true as yours, which is to say; false.

Wasn’t Exeter also the guy who said Mao only killed 4 million, not 40 million so give the guy a break? Love one dictator, love ‘em all huh Exy?

Makin’ stuff up again huh EddieTard?

Get your headgear on because the shortbus is waiting on you.

Ronald Reagan comes to mind.

I actually had Ahnold in mind, but Ronald Raygun is his political predecessor.

P.S. I will never forget the glee I enjoyed back in Fall 1980 when my college physics professor nonchalantly wrote on the chalk board, “Ronald Raygun is a scumbag.”

I note that the deep pools of debt which currently threaten to financially drown the USA at the household, city, state, fiscal, retiree benefit and international trade levels all got kicked into overdrive during his two-term presidency. Have historians connected the dots on this yet? In Raygun’s defense, it was a hell of a party while it lasted…

Scumbag? meh….

More like an incompetent, detached goofball who was too stupid to realize he was getting played by Wall Street thugs…. namely Chief Thief Don Regan.

But then again, aren’t shiny suited empty skulls the gop favorite?

FWIW - one could at least make a case that Ronnie’s deficit spending was a significant contributor to the downfall of the USSR - escalating the arms race to the point where they just couldn’t withstand it any more whereas we could.

“…one could at least make a case that Ronnie’s deficit spending was a significant contributor to the downfall of the USSR…”

It seems like a small consolation that the SHTF for the USSR two decades before it did for US.

We had our chance. Things were still looking OK for us until about 1997.

Problem is that while we seem to be OK at ramping up spending when it’s needed - we can’t seem to ramp it back down when it’s *not* needed.

one could at least make a case that Ronnie’s deficit spending was a significant contributor to the downfall of the USSR

Yep and those receiving TARP will say that the money stolen from the tax payer saved our economy.

600 dollar hammers were too easy to spot as waste and fraud so they had to go for lazers. How much should a lazer system cost? Don’t know sounds expensive.

Read Fred Coleman’s book “The Decline and Fall of the Soviet Empire”. He does a good job of debunking that silly myth that Reagan bankrupted the Soviets. Reagan wasted money that didn’t need to be wasted, just like TARP was a waste of money.

*yawn*

michael,

Right, and anyone that happens to catch the show on their way through the living room or channel surfing is a brainwashed neocon.

Why is it I’ve never (once) seen a disparaging comment here over KO?

Olberman is a tool. He sounded good when Bush was in, but now it’s obvious that he is flagrantly biased in favor of the Democraps.

Cuz 94% of the regulars are kool aid drinking O’bots?

“but now it’s obvious that he is flagrantly biased in favor of the Democraps.”

but now? You mean prior to now he was objective?

Obviously as objective as Limbaugh, but 10x more intelligent, incisive, and articulate.

“I’ve stuck around mostly for the banter, insight, news and community.”

I rememeber a similar line in “The Once and Future King” when Wart was an ant.

the truth?

But come on , PPTs, PBTs and doctored GDP reports….what else can you call it?

So that government that you don’t trust to run C4C or health care is the same government that tells us the truth? Bwahahahaha.

“But come on , PPTs, PBTs and doctored GDP reports….what else can you call it?”

Unless a senior official comes out and says the GDP is only positive because we, the government, are spending money we don’t have, then they’re falling short of telling the full truth.

The PPT discussion has been taken up on this blog from time to time, but it did not originate here.

Given that the Fed operates under a veil of extreme secrecy in order to avoid tipping the market’s hand on the future direction of monetary policy, I don’t personally see any reason to assume they would have much trouble hiding the details of an asset price manipulation program, if they saw fit to do so.

Plunge Protection Team

“Plunge Protection Team” was originally the headline for an article in The Washington Post on February 23, 1997,[2] and has since become a colloquial term used by some mainstream publications to refer to the Working Group.[3][4] Initially, the term was used to express the opinion that the Working Group was being used to prop up the markets during downturns.[5][6] Financial writers for British newspapers The Observer and The Daily Telegraph, along with U.S. Congressman Ron Paul and writers Kevin Phillips (who claims “no personal firsthand knowledge” and is “not interested in becoming a conspiracy investigator”) [7] and John Crudele,[8] have charged the Working Group with going beyond their legal mandate. Claims about the Working Group, which are labeled conspiracy theories by some writers, generally include that it is an orchestrated mechanism that attempts to manipulate U.S. stock markets in the event of a market crash by using government funds to buy stocks, or other instruments such as stock index futures—acts which are forbidden by law. In August 2005, Sprott Asset Management released a report that argued that there is little doubt that the PPT intervened to protect the stock market.[9] However, these articles usually refer to the Working Group using moral suasion to attempt to convince banks to buy stock index futures. [10]

Former Federal Reserve Board member Robert Heller, in the Wall Street Journal, opined that “Instead of flooding the entire economy with liquidity, and thereby increasing the danger of inflation, the Fed could support the stock market directly by buying market averages in the futures market, thereby stabilizing the market as a whole.” His statement has been used to claim that the Fed actually did act in that way. Mainstream analysts call those claims a conspiracy theory, explaining that such claims are simplistic and unworkable.[11][12]

Despite the fact that these theories about direct market intervention have circulated for over a decade in the tabloid press and on the internet, none of the conspiracy theorists has been able to produce even a single piece of evidence or first-hand testimony that would document such trading. Given the massive electronic and human audit trail generated by trading on the futures and stock markets, experts say that, if the so-called PPP interventionist theories were true, it would be impossible to conceal documentary evidence of such transactions.
…

“So that government that you don’t trust to run C4C or health care is the same government that tells us the truth? Bwahahahaha.”

ZOMG!!!!1!11 u got WTFPWNED!!!!!11111 nOOOBZZ!!!!!1111

ok…that was my 12 year old coming out.

“…experts say that, if the so-called PPP interventionist theories were true, it would be impossible to conceal documentary evidence of such transactions.”

I take back my suggestion. Like other posters on this blog, I have come to realize that if ‘experts’ say that something is true, then it must always be so.

Two people can keep a secret only if one of them is dead.

“Two people can keep a secret only if one of them is dead.”

So you are saying that only Bernard Madoff knew about his Ponzi scheme for all the years of its operation, and only Ken Lay knew about accounting irregularities at Enron just before it blew up?

Nice try, but your statement doesn’t pass the red face test.

I think he’s just misquoting Franklin:
“Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead.”

+1

Thirded.

I keep coming back here for the banter and the info.

You’re hardly ever wrong and collectively the smartest people I know.

IQ of 10,000? That’s only 660 standard deviations from the mean (if I did my math right). SUGuy you should change your name to “Black Swan”.

“..My IQ of 10,000 (ten thousand)”

That’s repetitive…you’re a “trickster”…I rename you: “SUGuy in a “Wiley E. Coyote” skin” …who thinks he can convince people that drinking coffee is bad for their health…and that will most likely be the cause of great pain to them and eventually their death!

(Hwy notes: if at some point in time, SUGuy is found out to be a “true repubican..then I’ll give him his honor: a “TrueDeceiver’s ™” merit badge.)

Palmetto,

While I absolutely agree we need an immediate moratorium on all immigration, I don’t think the incidents you mentioned support that point. Was the gang-rape in Richmond perpetrated by immigrants? They looked to me like typical LA gang-bangers. From what I saw on CNN this morning - correct me if I’m wrong - the imam who was taken down in Detroit was an African-American convert to Islam (converted in prison) and follower of the former Black Panther turned-Muslim extremist H. Rapp Brown.

we need a moratorium on all immigration, now.

So you’re saying that legal immigrants are more inclined to crime than illegal immigrants?

“Was the gang-rape in Richmond perpetrated by immigrants? They looked to me like typical LA gang-bangers.”

The gang-rape would appear to have been perpetrated by young men of Hispanic descent. Most likely the children of those hard-working immigrants with real family values we hear so much about, maybe the children’s children. Richmond is actually in the SF Bay area, not LA. But I don’t think there’s really a typical gang-banger in CA, since the gangs seem to span a number of cultures and races.

However, the vicious crime they committed has been going on for years in the border towns of Mexico. The actress Salma Hayek has been trying to tell anyone who will listen of the hundreds of disappeared women of those towns, and of the disgusting violence committed against them. You can google it. And now it has come to the US, exposing the culture of misogyny.

Regarding the imam, I’m more referring to the culture that has taken root in Dearborn, prompting some wags to call it “Dearbornistan”.

And for the whiners who want to say “American men have gang-banged (like that makes it OK), that may be true (Jodie Foster movie, college frats, etc.) but that doesn’t mean we need to add more of it from other countries and cultures.

My main objection is the misogyny and squelching of free speech through violence being imported into the US at a mad rate. And none dare speak out against it. Where are the feminists raising their voices now?

No, I think you’re saying I’m saying it.

Moratorium now.

You realize what a “moratorium” is - right? It’s making immigration illegal. Well, being that the vast majority of our current immigrants are already entering the country illegally - what makes you think that making all immigration illegal will change their behavior in the least?

In other words - moratorium isn’t what’s needed. What’s needed is enforcement of existing laws.

Which definition are you using, there’s a gajillion of them on the web:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:moratorium&ei=UcTpStf3GMXElAeu15mABQ&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAoQkAE

I’m saying all immigration should be temporarily suspended until the mess gets straightened out.

Moratorium now.

“…entertainment”

Key word & concept in… “This American Life”

Entertainment + Agenda + Deception = Rupert Murdoch = Fox News = “money in his bank account”

Rupert Murdoch: Foreign “Fear Monger” Billionaire $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The Wall Street Journal is one of his “new” tools!

“gang-rape in Richmond, CA ??”

Three miles from where we used to live (I checked it on Google maps…)

Wall Street Journal closes Boston bureau
Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:14pm EDT

Lighting strikes in MA!

Richmond is an absolute pit. I’ve been through it many times. I remember an old co-worker sharing a story of being low on fuel at nearly 2 am one morning. A very thin, unimposing young white guy, he stopped at a Richmond quickie mart for some fuel. He went inside, and it seemed as if nobody was working. He then heard some voices in the backroom, and walked around the corner to let them know he wanted some fuel. He encountered two burly African-American gentlemen smoking crack. He nervously gave them $10 for fuel, not even sure they were legitimate employees. He walked back to his truck, and just as he was about to remove the gas cap, a carload of what could only be described as gangbangers drove by, looked over and saw him, and flipped a quick U-turn to pull into the station. At this point, he was so nervous he abandoned getting gas, jumped in his truck, and tore out of there on empty with the pedal to the floor. He said was shaking as he prayed he could get to the next town for some fuel, certain he would run out. He made it, and said he would never go through that area again.

“About 200 students, teachers and community leaders rallied outside the campus after school Wednesday to condemn the rape and to say they wanted people to know the crime was not representative of their campus, the Chronicle says.

“I am devastated,” said senior Norma Bautista, the Chronicle reports. “I’m here because I want everybody in Arizona, in New York, everywhere they are, (to know) that we are not criminals. We are the future leaders. I see people call us animals. Why don’t you look at those of us who are trying to make a change?”

LMAO! Future leaders! Yep, I’m afraid that’s all too true.

I’m pretty certain the twenty or so people who stood around and watched the rape without lifting a finger to stop it are all too representative of that particular high school and community. If that’s how they act when the “thin blue line” is still somewhat in place, imagine what they’ll do during any kind of societal breakdown, i.e. civil unrest.

I worked in Richmond a few years back. It’s the only place I’ve ever been to where the KFC had 2 inch Bullet proof glass.

I decided not to eat out in Richmond at lunch time.

So the Professor is a “Finding Nemo” fan … Ben, I believe we’ve unmasked one of our 12-year-olds!

That’s me — a 12-year-old conspiracy theorist…

yep…PB still believes in santa claus too…hardy har har.

Sammy,

Trust me, if you have a grandchild, you will have seen Finding Nemo so many times you can re-hash the lines even withOUT the DVD playing!

Try me!

You can DO it sharkbait!

I’ve got young children of my own so yes, I’ve seen it. Can’t say I recall too many of the lines, though.

Well this 12+ can recall that line from Nemo. I’ve watched the movie a few times and still enjoy the dialogue.

You can DO it sharkbait!

You all have to admit that the initiation ceremony on the slopes of Mt Wannahockaloogie is absolutly hillarious.

“Sharkbait OOO HA HA!!!”

Yeah having two young ones - I know it well. It is indeed funny.

” Fish are Friends, NOT Food ” followed by slavering sounds. Later, explosions from the mines. My husband & I were laughing about that scene a couple of nights back, and reciting various lines from it to each other. We’re 57 yo.

There’s always the imperial “we”, as in “we are not amused”.

DennisN,

LOL! No.., no, no ‘we’ are not!

( I keep meaning to CALL you! Got the water district straightened out yet? ) Next… week look any better for you?

Fish is Dory. the seagulss said “Mine”.

The immigration lobby’s ultimate dirty trick for shutting down legitimate debate on immigration is to play the “racist” card - having well-funded pressure groups like the SPLC accuse anti-immigration groups like FAIR or VDARE of “racism” seems like more an attempt to stifle free speech or public debate on issues the Powers that Be would rather consign to the memory hole.

A fired station closed here recently (and not in the boonies) due to a state government shortfall, aggravated by the public tax burden of incarcerating illegal alien felons.
The Mexican Consulate downtown still is open, waving its flag.

Fire station, that is.
Didn’t burn.
Need more Diest Shasta Cola with Splenda.

“Diest?” Does Slenda kill you faster than Equal? (And may I reommend the joys of Stevia hopefully coming soon to a diet cola near you?)

He was a bad man, but a pretty good king.

“but a pretty good king”

Uhh, yeah, about that.

Were he around today we would probably be dropping some democracy on his a$$. He was a classic authoritarian tyrant. It’s pretty well acknowledged that he split from the church for entirely personal and political reasons. He wanted the tithes and wanted to get into Anne Boleyns bloomers.

He sacked the english monistaries to get his hands on their land and their acumulated wealth. This after nearly bankrupting the royal treasury on lavish gifts, parties and extensive self agrandizing construction projects.

Oh and lets not forget the tens of thousands of people he had sumarrily executed.

Sadam Hussain with a codpiece.

Sadam Hussain with a codpiece.

Well let’s put it this way, he was no wimp. But the split with the Church was bogus and self-serving.

are you saying this is from a newsletter or ??

It was a reader’s letter to a blog commenting on the H1B visa situation and the myth of the bright Indian worker.

That’s not to say there aren’t any bright Indian workers, but apparently not to the degree the media would have us believe.

But, my point overall is that it is basically a free-for-all now here in the US by the many and varied immigrant groups. While I’m sure there are a few individuals who are here for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, it would appear that many are only here for the beer. Here to get theirs. A bunch of maggots, feeding on the flesh of a dying America.

Yet despite it all, Obama made Vivek Kundra, a past shoplifter who claimed a biology degree that he did not earn, Federal Chief Investment Officer.

Kundra has made it a priority to focus on the following areas: (1) ensuring openness and transparency, (2) lowering the cost of government, (3) cyber-security, (4) participatory democracy, and (5) innovation.[23] One of Mr. Kundra’s first projects was the launch of Data.gov, a site for providing access to raw government data.

wikipedia

Which one’s righter?

Depends. Anyone can write whatever they want in wikipedia, including Kundra.

The ultimate test is the end product. Don’t listen to a lot of PR talk, just see what’s actually done.

Windows Vista, anyone?

Anyone can write whatever they want in wikipedia,

It has been written about many times. Selective entries, omissions.

GrizzlyBear,

Excellent points all. It’s just that, every time there’s a downturn in the economy these very points are raised. Time and time again. I recall it back in the late 80’s.

Politicians placate us as best they can, even as the cries reach a crescendo. But if they can just hold off, stall and distract meaningful debate and offer amnesty/compromises, then they’ve done their job.

Things continue unabated and they just hope and pray the economy turns around ‘enough’ to stifle all that ‘belly-aching’. That why ( and I realize she’s no one’s fave around ‘here’ ) but Michelle M has kept that drumbeat steady even in the best of times. When presumably the rest of us were using our MEW to buy SUV’s so we could make a solo run to return a DVD crosstown.

We have the best government money can buy and it’s the one we deserve.

“nothing is being done to address the illegal hiring practices of businesses.”

Nothing?? What about e-Verify? I heard that program is actually doing well but still has some problems. Also my firm is encountering a lot of e-Verify requirements now with public works projects.

http://tinyurl.com/yzp45kr

Woohoo! My county is #22.

I was talking with a friend about this the other day. His opinion was that property taxes were more fair than a state income tax + sales tax as everyone has to pay(assuming it is rolled into the price of rent), even those who don’t have legitimate jobs or would not otherwise pay taxes.

live anywhere along the Texas Gulf Coast region, it would be Sugarland.

Tom Delay land, IIRC.

Don’t worry, he’s been very effectively neutralized.

But yes, it’s a very conservative area. Rich people tend to be that way.

And even though I’m not a conservative (moderate if you must know) I cannot deny that Sugarland is a very nice place to live. Just a shame you can’t a decent job unless you have your Masters degree.

It’s kind of funny how they summarily struck the “new home buyer” description from the tax credit. It begins to look more and more like a closet REIC subsidy program, and less and less like something designed to actually benefit the officially-advertised recipients of the fiscally-funded largess.

A story about that… in Maryland there’s a park (I forget the name - it’s near Columbia) that’s got a placard showing how the park was built by CCC project, by hundreds of workers with shovels. They intentionally didn’t use machines to move the earth, because that would mean less jobs, since it would take less people to do the same work.

Just an example of how jobs data can be *very* misleading. There can be decreases in unemployment with zero increase in actual production.

But even production (e.g. as measured by GDP numbers) isn’t an accurate measure of growth, until it’s compared with debt growth. For instance if you hire a bunch of people to build a new house for you, and pay them with borrowed money - are you actually richer after you have your house? No. You’re only richer if you have a new house with no new debt, or at least less new debt than the house is worth.

In other words - stimulus based growth is not real economic growth. Real economic growth happens when stimulus is non-existent.

GDP went up last quarter by $150 Billion. But we spent about $200 Billion in stimulus funds to get it. That’s not including other funds from TARP, F/F MBS purchases, etc. That’s not growth at all - it’s shrinkage still.

Road building in India is all labor. The gov.
places a family every 100 meters along where
the road is planned and then dumps 5 tons
of boulders right next to their tent. They
live out of their tent, cook and relieve themselves beside the future road while they reduce the boulders to road gravel with hand sledges. The spread the gravel along their stretch of road by hand and baskets. When done, they’re moved to another spot.

It puts people to work and the gov. doesn’t
have to by any thing from Caterpillar.

Road building in India is all labor. The gov.
places a family every 100 meters along where
the road is planned and then dumps 5 tons
of boulders right next to their tent. They
live out of their tent, cook and relieve themselves beside the future road while they reduce the boulders to road gravel with hand sledges. The spread the gravel along their stretch of road by hand and baskets. When done, they’re moved to another spot.

It puts people to work and the gov. doesn’t
have to by any thing from Caterpillar.

Lucky dogs.

If the government *really* cared about them - they wouldn’t give them boulders to break up, they’d make each family dig boulders out of the ground instead, and carry them to the road site themselves. That would create more jobs.

When my husband the retired (against his will) can get a good job again, then we know the recession will be over. Until then, hunker down and hang onto your nickles and dimes. I think next year is going to be rough. I remember reading that the stock market recovered a little bit after the Crash in 1929, and that the real Great Depression didn’t actually start until 2 years later. I was listening to a program about the crash on NPR on my way home yesterday, and it retold the story of Groucho Marx losing $ 300K in the stock market back then. There was hope that there would be some continued recovery from the crash, and then the serious recession/depression started a couple of years later. People who thought they had it bad in 1929 werer devastated in 1931-32. I’m wating for 2010-2011 to see what happens. I’m wondering if the economy will follow a similar pattern of decline this time.

etold the story of Groucho Marx losing $ 300K in the stock market back then.

Well, all I can hope then is it portends some really good humorous movies will be made. Didn’t he make his best Marx movies when he was forced to return to work?

I could sure use a good belly laugh today.

good belly laugh today

That’s what southparkstudios.com is for. Watch online.

99.999% of the population that doesn’t read this blog is spending. You probably weren’t paying attention to Apple’s earnings, or Dell’s, or Intel’s or Amazon’s or Google’s. All had blowout quarters. Aaple had its best quarter ever selling iphones and imacs.

But you’re right, nobody’s spending a dime.

combo,

Good point. All the while we’ve busied ourselves with how NAR had effectively “pulled sales forward” by putting young couples -straight- into “dream homes” ( bypassing those dreary starter/trade-up “dumps” ) and really lost sight of how everthing ELSE had been pulled forward too?

Using El Credito every step of the way!

The straw-man rhetorical technique (sometimes called straw person) is the practice of refuting weaker arguments than one’s opponents actually offer. It is not a logical fallacy to disprove a weak argument. Rather, this fallacy lies in declaring one argument’s conclusion to be wrong because of flaws in another argument.

One can set up a straw man in several different ways:

1. Present only a portion of the opponent’s arguments (often a weak one), refute it, and pretend that all of their arguments have been refuted.
2. Present the opponent’s argument in weakened form, refute it, and pretend that the original has been refuted.
3. Present a misrepresentation of the opponent’s position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent’s actual position has been refuted.
4. Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute their arguments, and pretend that every argument for that position has been refuted.
5. Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticised, and pretend that that person represents a group that the speaker is critical of.

I hereby declare Eddie straw man king of the Housing Bubble Blog.

“99.999% of the population that doesn’t read this blog is spending.”

Can this be backed up by fact, or is this just another case of Eddie talking out of his @ss?

A recession is over when the decline in economic output stops, NOT when economic output gets back to where it was before the recession started.

Kinda like August 31, 1945 in Hiroshima. The bombing was indeed over.

A recession is over when the decline in economic output stops, NOT when economic output gets back to where it was before the recession started.

That’s the government’s definition - but by that definition the Great Depression ended in 1933. How many people really believe that though?

Can this be backed up by fact, or is this just another case of Eddie talking out of his @ss?

I have a hard time telling where @ss ends and Eddie begins.

lmao…

From The New Yorker: “… this recession has permanently remade American consumers, turning them from spendtrifts into tightwads.”

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2009/10/12/091012ta_talk_surowiecki

“…it will be my own personal green shoot!”

I like that, especially from a fellow named…rusty!

haha, I gave Fidelity 5k, they lost 3k, then had the temerity to charge me a ‘low balance’ fee! That was soon rectified with a phone call. I think your power still trumps mine

NYCityBoy, your comments are, as always music to my ears. Sometimes it’s not just the substance of your comments, but the eloquence with which they are delivered.

Carry on!

+1

Eddie’s comments are like those that I heard from an accquaintance whose wife works for a major US conglomerate. He laughed at my assertion that there were no green shoots, insisted that we are in a recovery and spoke of how much money that he and his wife make an hour (it was hundreds).

His audience was a college professor who can never retire, the prof’s two sons who are jobless, a post-doc who can’t find a job and a recent graduate from a master’s program in science, also jobless.

These comments sound more and more like, “Let them eat cake” to those who have been robbed by the maybe 3000 banksters who have all of the money. The anger was palpable and it is growing.

MrBubble

….ended six months ago????

Darn my company didn’t get the memo,as I was laid off five months ago. I stopped in there last week. A lot fewer workers around. They will probably completly shut down in March.

Do you have to take off your sun glasses & hat like they require here in the US of A?

cereal,

LOL! Yeah, slash tires… m-a-y-b-e?

Ben had a great link about an appraiser/trainer from Seattle that had been personally threatened with a GUN while refusing to rubber stamp appraisals in Bend, OR.

Just incredible the amount of verbal abuse and threats that guy had taken. Every bit as juicy as the movie Boiler Room. Total thug mentality in the REIC. We’ve seen this bs on everything from equity-skimming operations to realtwhores taking the keys out of the lockboxes. Best part is, ‘anyone’ can join!

They didn’t have to really put thought into it. They accidentally made what could be a good decision. People in apartments that are falling on hard times are getting kicked out after missing 2 or 3 rent payments. People that “own”, often because of the silly tax credit, can fall on hard times and potentially have 18, 24 or even 36 months of not making payments.

Sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good.

“But the tax credit was just the kicker to throw me over.”

A real Colon kicker.

Mrs. Colon is going to live up to her family name in a way she never imagined.

Getting a Colonoscopy with a joshua tree.

The crickets & I have been silenced by…the NAR & CAR

Be patient, eastcoaster- you’re doing a good job.

prefer my hats to be lined with lead

Isn’t that heavy? I understand the superior efficacy of lead, but doesn’t the weight have a detrimental effect on your spine?