November 20, 2009

Hopeful For Prosperous Lives, Impoverished By Their Losses

It’s Friday desk clearing time for this blogger. “Seven people were arrested Thursday and charged with operating a $142 million mortgage and security fraud that pushed 201 Riverside County homes into foreclosure and harmed hundreds of investors in California and Arizona, driving many to financial ruin. In their wake were dozens of homeowners and investors hopeful for prosperous lives but instead, in some cases, impoverished by their losses. Deborah Weber has gone through foreclosure and bankruptcy and was forced to move with her husband from what she called their ‘dream house’ in Rialto to a mobile home in Riverside.”

“She said she has little hope that the money she and her fellow investors lost will be recovered from the defendants and returned to them. ‘I really don’t foresee any money,’ she said. ‘The most we will get is the satisfaction of them going to jail.’”

“The scheme was orchestrated, District Attorney Rod Pacheco said, by James Benjamin Duncan, of La Cresta, who billed himself ‘James the Cash King’ in Internet videos. Also in connection with the case, plea agreements on federal charges were filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, said U.S. Attorney George S. Cardona. Cardona said Duncan was able to take advantage of people because home values were exploding and people thought they would continue to climb.”

“In a telephone interview Thursday, one of the alleged California victims expressed delight that charges were finally filed. ‘Yes, yes,’ said Anna Richter, who moved to Houston after being coaxed into buying three Murrieta homes and later losing them. ‘That’s where they should have been for the last three years. I can’t even describe how happy I am to finally see some movement.’”

“The slump in the US housing market may not be over, but for buyers like Daniel and Robin Akerman, for sale signs equal dollar signs. For US$150,000 - the Akermans are buying a three bedroom house in Pensacola, Florida which sold for US$225,000 at the peak of the market. ‘We’re getting a lot of house. We looked at a lot of houses before this one, and they were good prices but not as much house. Definitely excellent house for the price that we’re paying,’ says Daniel Akerman.”

“Short sales like this are increasingly popular in Pensacola, Florida. Short sales aren’t an option for everyone though. Mitchell Perry, a member of the US Navy stationed in Pensacola, bought his home at the peak of the market for $115,000. The house is now worth US$90,000 and Perry is being transferred to a new base. Compounding matters, Perry refinanced his house, without realising that his mortgage would rise to US$125,000.”

“‘There’s no selling right now, it’s either going to be rent or it’s going to be vacant and I’m going to be paying on it,’ says Mitchell Perry, US Navy hospital corpsman.”

“In 2005, the bankruptcy law was changed to make it harder to file bankruptcy. After it took effect, filings dramatically dropped. But this year, filings are climbing and are expected to total 1.5 million, the level they were at before the tighter law took effect. These days, it’s ordinary middle-class Americans, not a marginalized underclass or high-stakes gamblers, who are most apt to experience financial failure.”

“During the boom years, many middle-class Americans lived beyond their means. Middle-class families were encouraged to spend. But that often turned into a disaster when their bills increased and wages dwindled. ‘My wife and I were great at lubricating the economy,’ says Rock Macke, who lives with his wife and two children in Rancho Santa Margarita, Calif. ‘We loved to spend money, as is the middle-class thing to do.’”

“They filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy in March. Since then, they’ve gotten rid of their expensive cars and downgraded. Macke takes care of the yard instead of paying for a gardener. ‘I got wrapped up in materialism. But in a painful way, this reminded me of important things, like a healthy family, that you lose perspective on when you’re trying to chase the American dream,’ he says.”

“As unemployed homeowners struggled to pay their mortgages, the percentage of New Jersey loans in foreclosure or at least a month behind on payments hit 14.5 percent in the third quarter, the Mortgage Bankers Association said Thursday. The rise in unemployment is the main driver behind the rise in foreclosures, according to Jay Brinkmann, the mortgage bankers’ chief economist.”

“Phyllis Salowe-Kaye, head of New Jersey Citizen Action, said that while the economy is partly to blame for the rise in mortgage delinquencies, lenders also bear some responsibility because of the exotic loans they made during the housing boom. She pointed to one type of loan popular in those days, the option ARM — an adjustable-rate mortgage where the homeowner had the option to pay less than the amount needed to fully amortize the mortgage. In those cases, the unpaid balance was added to the loan amount. But eventually, the payments rise.”

“‘We’re seeing people with exploding mortgages that have just started to explode,’ Salowe-Kaye said.”

“She watched her rewarding job in the mortgage industry disappear and her financial security dissolve in a $3 million bankruptcy. Then she embraced a total career change — only to have her first steps toward the health care industry interrupted by a frightening turn as a patient. Somehow, 47-year-old Diane Simon smiles brightly beneath a still-short shock of regrown hair, at ease in her new life entwined with two major crises of the times.”

“‘I’m more comfortable in health care than the finance industry,’ she says of her fledgling career. ‘For one thing, you don’t have to rely on the goobers on Wall Street.’”

“‘I saw an explosion of business,’ she said. ‘What I didn’t see, at that point, was the issue of value. We were seeing how values were increasing, but we weren’t seeing the trouble ahead.’”

“By 2007, houses in which she had invested — two in California, two in Hawaii — had begun the slide toward foreclosure. The rental market dried up and, with no tenants to cover her costs, she saw four mortgages and other debt snowball into a $3 million bankruptcy. And then, in late November 2008, she felt a lump in her breast. Within three weeks she had her diagnosis: Stage 3 breast cancer that had metastasized to the lymph nodes.”

“And that’s when she remarked to her husband: ‘Apparently the mortgage industry gives you cancer.’”

“The coroner’s report left no doubt as to the cause of death: toxic loans. That was the conclusion of a financial autopsy that federal officials performed on Haven Trust Bank, a small bank in Duluth, Ga., that collapsed last December.”

“At bank after bank, the examiners are discovering that state and federal regulators knew lenders were engaging in hazardous business practices but failed to act until it was too late. ‘We all could have done a better job,’ said Sheila C. Bair, the chairwoman of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.”

“Many bank examiners acknowledge they were lulled into believing the good times for banks would last. They also concede that they were sometimes reluctant to act when troubles surfaced, for fear of unsettling the housing market and the economy. Then as now, banking lobbyists vigorously opposed attempts to rein in the banks, like the 2006 guidelines that discouraged banks from holding big commercial real estate positions.”

“‘Hindsight is a wonderful thing,’ said Timothy W. Long, the chief bank examiner for the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency. ‘At the height of the economic boom, to take an aggressive supervisory approach and tell people to stop lending is hard to do.’”

“Experts outlined how the government saved the U.S. economy from collapsing and predicted its path of recovery at the University of Redlands’ Inland Empire Economic Update Wednesday. UR president Stuart Dorsey, former chief economist for the Senate Finance Committee and a self-described ‘recovering economist,’ addressed ‘FAQs’ about the recession and recovery. The debate over whether government intervention helps the economy has been raging a long time, he said.”

“‘We’re still debating whether fiscal policy had anything to do with getting us out of the Great Depression,’ he said.”

“What the government’s recent actions have done is boost consumer confidence, he said. But for the economy to recover and stabilize long term, people need to drop the mentality that spending money is the answer. ‘Perhaps it’s not a bad thing for consumption to lag behind and saving (to increase),’ he said.”

“Los Angeles-based Beacon Economics founder Christopher Thornberg’s presentation was abbreviated because of bad phone connection. He said the good news is the recession is over - the bad news is the problems are not being fixed. ‘We’re in a very weird place where government policy is the primary driver of economic activity,’ he said.”

“California is worse off than the nation as a whole, he said. But the residential market - including in the Inland Empire - is improving. He cautioned against getting caught up in enthusiasm over the market’s revival. There will be more foreclosures in the region in the coming year and unemployment is still high, he said. ‘The housing market is being rallied by mortgage rates - that can’t go on forever,’ he said.”

“Thornberg predicted slow growth in 2010 and a mild recession in 2011. ‘We have to let the economy heal,’ he said. ‘The process is painful but it has to occur.’”

“‘Clearly, things are worse than most of us would have anticipated,’ said Stephen Cauley, director of research at the UCLA Ziman Center for Real Estate. ‘And lower income homeowners are not the only ones hurting. The value of upper-income homes have gone down about as much, and in some cases it can make a lot of sense for people to walk away from the mortgage. If a homeowner owes $80,000 on a house that’s worth only $60,000, it might make sense to give it back to the bank.’”

“‘On the flipside, if you’re thinking about giving the home back to the lender, you also have to consider where you’re going to live,’ he said.”

“The number of delinquent prime loans in Minnesota climbed 5.17 percent in the third quarter compared with the second quarter and the percentage of prime loans in foreclosure grew 2.41 percent. ‘They’re terrible numbers and they just keep getting worse,’ said Scott Anderson, a senior economist for Wells Fargo.”

“‘We’re talking about people who really, truly want to pay their bills on time and are having trouble,’ said Tim Swierczek, president of the Minnesota Mortgage Association. Swierzcek’s also heard of a small number of cases where homeowners who can afford to pay their loans are choosing not to because they paid far more for the home than it’s worth in today’s market.”

“The common practice during the housing boom of stretching to afford a home is another contributor to these higher numbers, experts say. ‘People stretched to buy housing and took on more debt than they should have,’ Anderson said.”

“Sacramento-area home prices are still falling compared to a year ago, but for the first time in almost 2 1/2 years, their decline can be measured in single digits. In some parts of the state, including the Bay Area, prices are even starting to creep up again. Michael Lyon, head of Sacramento’s Lyon Real Estate, said, ‘If anything, we’ll see appreciation in the first quarter, especially in the lower end.’”

“Home affordability has hit another all-time high in Stanislaus County, putting homeownership in reach for more first-time buyers. Sales prices, meanwhile, held steady in October, with the county’s median-priced home selling for $140,000. But foreclosures continue creeping up. Modesto kindergarten teacher Andrew Sirogiannis carefully tracks all those housing statistics as he hunts for his first home.”

“‘I’ve been waiting for what I think is the bottom of the market before I buy,’ said Sirogiannis, 31. ‘I’m looking for a good, safe neighborhood and a good price (under $300,000). If I buy something, it probably will be between Thanksgiving and New Year’s when the market slows down and not so many people are bidding for houses.’”

“Sirogiannis has been financially ready to buy a home for about five years, but he thought purchasing would be foolish ‘during the real estate boom because houses were overpriced.’”

“Using her good credit rating and her income from managing a Ceres insurance office, Twenty-year-old Diana Aguilar purchased a $115,000 house in Livingston. ‘It was super simple. I was actually amazed,’ Aguilar said. The foreclosed four-bedroom house previously had sold for more than twice what she paid, so she is confident she got a good deal.”

“Aguilar’s home payment now is less than $900 a month, compared with the $800 monthly rent she had been paying. She got a Federal Housing Administration-backed mortgage that only required a few thousand dollars for a down payment. She also qualified for the $8,000 federal tax credit. Although finding the right house can be difficult, Aguilar offered this advice to other first-time buyers: ‘Don’t give up. Just keep looking. You can do it. Everybody can these days.’”

“For the first time in nearly two years, the median price of Santa Clara County houses is higher than a year ago. The median price of houses in the county that changed hands last month increased to $550,000, up 6.7 percent from October 2008. The last time the median price increased from its year-ago level was in December 2007, when the price of $739,000 was 4.6 percent more than in December 2006.”

“‘With the homebuyer tax credit, and with the lower prices compared to ‘06 and ‘07, and with lending institutions keeping homes off the foreclosure inventory … we’ve stabilized,’ said Stephen Levy of the Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy, in Palo Alto. ‘But that’s a lot of conditions. It doesn’t mean we’re not in danger of another round of foreclosures.’”

“Homebuyer Eddie Espitia, 31, was spurred to action by the federal government’s tax credit of up to $8,000 for first-time buyers. Espitia started looking about six months ago, eventually touring more than two dozen homes from Brentwood to Gilroy to Hollister. He and his mother are combining forces on the purchase, and they searched for a quiet neighborhood and a house priced from about $300,000 to $325,000.”

“After losing out on two houses, one in Brentwood and one in Hollister, he finally had an offer accepted on a four-bedroom house in Hollister. It’s a short sale, meaning the owner is selling for less than he or she owes on the mortgage, but is able to avoid foreclosure. The trek toward home- ownership has been more competitive than he had thought based on media reports, said Espitia, who manages two Starbucks stores in San Jose and Morgan Hill.”

“‘It reads as if it’s plentiful out there and quite simple, but it’s not,’ he said. ‘The amount of inventory in our price range seemed to diminish over time, and the houses were being picked off by people who were quicker and more savvy than we were.’”

“Since 1997, Chicago has added almost 150,000 condos to its housing stock. The people who bought those units maybe didn’t fully realize it at the time, but they’re taking part in a big experiment in communal living. Everyone has to pool their money to fix the roof or keep the elevator working. And if your neighbors stop ponying up, you’re on the hook. Now the foreclosure crisis is pushing many condo buildings to the verge of collapse.”

“When Dee Hutchinson bought her condo, let’s just say this was not part of the plan. This 27-unit condo building in Chicago’s Washington Park neighborhood is almost completely empty. Most of the units are foreclosed or abandoned, some inhabited by squatters. For months, only Hutchinson and a few other owners have been paying assessments. They’ve had no heat or hot water since April when the gas was shut off.”

“Hutchinson loves her unit and wants to protect her credit, but even she had started packing to leave for good. She says she was tired of crashing at her brother’s place. HUTCHINSON: ‘And I was just paying mortgage and struggling paying this mortgage and not living here and I was just going to walk away and foreclose like everybody else.’”

“Angela Maurello of the non-profit Community Investment Corporation has been working on this for years. Her program acts as a receiver on behalf of the city for distressed condo buildings. I asked her how many she thinks there are in Chicago. MAURELLO: ‘Oh there’s hundreds because we already have 200 of the ones we have, so I’d say there’s got to be 400, 500 of these buildings in the city. This is a serious problem.’”

“And that means lots more condo owners like Hutchinson trying to shoulder the expense of a whole building without help from their neighbors. Turning this building around won’t be easy. Investors are now buying units there for as low as $14,000. Hutchinson says some of the new people have as little commitment to the building as the previous owners.”

“HUTCHINSON: ‘It’s been a struggle, because we have no control of the people moving out and going foreclose, but then we have these knuckleheads coming in buying these units short sale – that’s fine, but you still have to pay assessments. So we have new people coming in now that we’re fighting with.’”

“Hutchinson sinks back into her couch, exasperated. She says she misses the days when she was a renter. And she says if she ever buys another home, it won’t be a condo.”




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161 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-11-20 08:45:20

‘with lending institutions keeping homes off the foreclosure inventory … we’ve stabilized,’ said Stephen Levy…’It reads as if it’s plentiful out there and quite simple, but it’s not,’ he said. ‘The amount of inventory in our price range seemed to diminish over time’

So in the same article, the now obvious collusion by lenders is repeated, and we are shown somebody being urged into buying partly due to that same action. Has the media not learned a damn thing about these corporations and what they are willing to do?

‘Twenty-year-old Diana Aguilar purchased a $115,000 house in Livingston. ‘It was super simple. I was actually amazed,’ Aguilar said.’

I can’t say that this house is overpriced, but I can say I have not met many 20 YOs that were prepared to pay back $100k on a house.

Comment by holytrainwreck
2009-11-20 08:57:51

Especially since that’s the same county that one of Casey Serin’s houses was. It’s hard to have any hope and optimism about the maturity of 20-somethings when you have immature spoolheads.

Perhaps the school of hard knocks will teach swift lessons.

And I can’t help but be reeled in by “James The Cash King”? What is that? Combotechie’s alter ego?

And “lubricating the economy”? Bend over first, of course!

Shooting fish in a barrel.

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-20 13:05:31

What happens next year when Diana Aguilar meets her Dreamboat Honey and he refuses to live in her $hitbox with her and wants to move to Nutley, NJ so he can open a pizza shop with his uncle Louie?

Spoolhead - step to the front of the line, you are this month’s FB certificate winner!

Comment by DebtinNation
2009-11-20 19:09:02

Her dreamboat will live with her for free while he sponges off of her insurance job for his 40 oz’ers and his jet-ski (until that breaks and he sells it on Craig’s List for pennies on the dollar).

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Comment by arizonadude
 
Comment by DebtinNation
2009-11-20 18:29:15

“My wife and I were great at lubricating the economy”

Hope you saved a little lube for the Joshua Tree.

 
Comment by apollo
2009-11-21 06:07:31

“The scheme was orchestrated, District Attorney Rod Pacheco said, by James Benjamin Duncan, of La Cresta, who billed himself ‘James the ( Other people’s) Cash King’ in Internet videos.”

Fixed it.

 
 
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-20 11:31:32

It boggles my mind that 1.) a 20 year old would even want to own a house and be tied to it by the mortgage, maintenance and up-keep and 2.) would feel comfortable taking on a $100+K mortgage.

My 23 year old daughter a year out of college is thinking that she should by a Condo in Seattle “while they are cheap”. I will throw myself bodily in front of that train if I have to.

I paid a little over $100K for my first house in 1988 and at the time I was making around $60K, which was decent money in the day, and my wife was making about $25K. Even at that, it seemed like a $1000/month PITI hit was just an enormous nut. I Spent more than a few sleepless nights early on and was immensely glad to get the thing paid for in the early 2000’s.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-20 12:57:15

So NOW we know where the next crop of FB are coming from…plus her student loan debt

Now I am really scared for the future of our country….
———————————-
My 23 year old daughter a year out of college is thinking that she should by a Condo in Seattle “while they are cheap”. I will throw myself bodily in front of that train if I have to.

Comment by wolfgirl
2009-11-20 13:38:38

My daughter was 23 and 2 years out of college when she bought her grandfather’s house after his death. She paid 70k for it furnished. Of course she has no college loans which makes a big difference.

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Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-20 15:49:08

Well fortunately no student loans, debt free, so she should keep it that way, at least for a while, and never ever, ever buy a condo.

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Comment by MightyMike
2009-11-20 13:52:16

It boggles my mind that 1.) a 20 year old would even want to own a house…

It could be the same reason that some kids get married at 20 years old in some of the redneck sections of this country. Some kids get out of high school and go away to college. Other kids go and join the military. If a kid is 20 and still living in her home town and working at a little job, she may feel that she needs to something big in her life to feel that she is growing up. A lot of these kids get married too young. I can imagine that buying a house at 20 would serve the same purpose.

Comment by Carl Morris
2009-11-20 15:08:13

20 yo rednecks don’t get married to feel grown up, or to get rich quick. They get married because otherwise their parents won’t let them share a room with their SO when they come home for the holidays.

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Comment by ric
2009-11-20 18:30:46

2o yo rednecks get married because of shotguns.

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-11-20 19:17:17

Not anymore. They shack up just like you sophisticates. That way the welfare keeps flowing.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-20 19:32:33

yes and guvmint programs are based on YOUR income unless you are married. so YOU can be broke and get welfare even if your “roommate” has a good job. Add student loans Pell grants too. Lots of good financial reasons to shack up

So complain about people walking away from their underwater homes if they can still pay for it, to me that’s wrong

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-20 21:07:47

I might suggest that 20 is old for ‘redneck co’, you are mostly thinking of 18 yos, and many of them having the babies before
20.

Those are the ones I grew up with, oddly 60%+ are still w/i a 30 mile radius of same small town.

 
 
 
Comment by Skip
2009-11-20 15:51:33

So you were bringing in over $5k/month and you were losing sleep over $1k house payment?

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-20 08:58:31

“Hutchinson sinks back into her couch, exasperated. She says she misses the days when she was a renter. And she says if she ever buys another home, it won’t be a condo.”

The condo market is DOA nationwide, as far as I can tell. It certainly is in our little burg. Of course we have a genius developer building a new set of millions dollar condos downtown. The place is doomed, period.

Comment by In Montana
2009-11-20 09:54:18

There’s a new condo conversion here that seems to be DOAk with one little crappy car parked in the same place by it week after week. I drove by at 3 am and it was dark, same car parked in the same spot. The condo listings disappeared from the local Realtor web site.

Does that mean it’s probably in foreclosure? The conversion took for.ever. and hit the market at the worst possible time. I don’t know why they couldn’t have just kept them as apts, and now they have all the fancy bamboo flooring, granisteel etc. to pay for.

Comment by DebtinNation
2009-11-20 19:12:28

Are there any funny odors coming from the trunk of that car?

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-20 22:12:38

Do you mean “ha ha funny or “strange funny?”

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Comment by DD
2009-11-20 21:21:33

50yo uber wealthy couple owning on golf course, said they paid cash for daughter to buy ‘cute 2/2 condo in Phoenix for $170k just this past summer, it was a good deal and it is time to buy”.

Well, it will never affect them. The mrs said they “live in a bubble, all the swnk couples (second wife no kids-her words not mine!) are all about shopping and dining out and vacations”. She is bored playing golf every other day with these wives.

Can someone get me a kleenex?

 
 
Comment by wolfgirl
2009-11-20 09:55:41

I never understood why anyone would buy a condo.

Comment by The_Overdog
2009-11-20 12:14:38

Because houses are hard to find in downtown areas, and the person might live a lifestyle conducive to what might be termed ‘apartment life’, but with the desire to own rather than rent.

Also houses have been exploding up in size in the past 20 or so years, with condos taking over the ’small house/starter house’ demographic.

Not saying I’d ever purchase one, but I can see why people do.

Comment by WT Economist
2009-11-20 12:27:31

So do I, but it’s a big risk with a non-stable building. Which means new construction and conversions are particularly risky. The real opportunity is for people to organize and buy as a group, because it’s too damn risky to buy an individual condo unit without any idea what will happen to the rest of the building.

“Most of the units are foreclosed or abandoned, some inhabited by squatters. For months, only Hutchinson and a few other owners have been paying assessments. They’ve had no heat or hot water since April when the gas was shut off.”

Reminds me of a co-worker of my wife’s in the early 1990s real estate bust. She owned but could not live in a condo in Jersey City, NJ, and had to move back in with her parents.

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Comment by In Montana
2009-11-20 15:00:25

Most people don’t know about the HOA part. When you explain the liability angle to them it’s usually an aha moment.

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Comment by oxide
2009-11-20 17:41:47

Depends on what you mean by “downtown.” Any city will have a small building or two of condos, but outside of the dozen major cities, there is plenty of urban infill to put cutsie little cottage housing on (yes yes I know, there’s almost no profit in that.)

NY, Boston, DC, Miami, Atlanta, Houston, Chicago, Denver, LA, SF, Seattle. (Philly? St. Louis? Dallas? Charlotte?)

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Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-20 22:14:55

Best thing to do is wait til interest rates go up to max and prices hit bottom (when rents are higher than buying). Then find a condo complex that is full, but wait a year or two to be certain all pending foreclosers are sold.

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Comment by Biff Henderson
2009-11-20 12:27:00

“I never understood why anyone would buy a condo.”

No lawn to mow, all outside taken care of by HOA. Usually cheaper than a house of same square footage. Ideal for singles and elderly.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-20 13:01:49

And people walking distance to their high paying, long hours jobs or your own business

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Ideal for singles and elderly

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Comment by DebtinNation
2009-11-20 19:16:21

And for people who like the smell of urine in their alleyways.

 
 
Comment by wolfgirl
2009-11-20 13:40:01

I’d rather rent.

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Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-20 22:16:41

A condo/loft is my ideal choice. I had plantar fasciitis for almost a year and it’s slowly disappearing. It is a good reminder that I don’t want to be a slave to my yard. I’d rather do therapy, which is swimming and yoga.

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Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-20 12:59:13

million dollar condozes in Columbia SC? what is Bill Gates moving his company to that fair city?

Comment by wmbz
2009-11-20 13:08:38

You’d think, it really is insane, but it’s happening. Of course you know why…It’s different here, and the big rebound is just around the corner. Plus everyone wants to live here! LOL! Not gonna happen, never!

 
Comment by MightyMike
2009-11-20 15:05:42

It’s not Microsoft, but another famous company from Washington state is setting up shop in South Carolina. They’re getting subsidies worth $400 million. That works out to be almost $90 from every man, woman and child in SC. Here’s the link.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aktWeuQw8ahI&pos=5

Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-11-20 15:35:04

I get tired of hearing about how companies like Boeing move to the South/Overseas because “…the business climate is better….”

I wonder if they would make these moves, if they weren’t being bribed with taxpayer money. This kind of crap needs to stop.

OTOH, it makes sense if you subscribe to the view that there are “X” number of jobs in the world, but there are “X times 2″ people needing work…….$90/head is cheap, compared to the alternatives.

Time will tell……….let’s just say that there is a pretty steep learning curve between building subassemblies, and final assembly……..ask Cessna how it worked out for the first 2-3 years, when they moved the assembly of single engine aircraft from Wichita to Independence.

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Comment by Skip
2009-11-20 15:54:42

They moved there because Vought had already built a nice new non-union plant there to build 777 parts and Boeing’s decision to outsource construction of the 777 turned out to be a huge financial mistake.

 
Comment by wizard
2009-11-20 16:04:37

..or the Skycatcher 162, built in China…!!

 
Comment by oxide
2009-11-20 17:46:03

Corporate welfare has been going on a long time. A city will spend gazoodles of money to attract a few hundred jobs, just for the PR. Corporations know this full well and encourage cities to engage in a bidding war. After all is said and done, it would almost be cheaper to put the same # of people directly on the dole.

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-11-20 19:27:30

And every local wannabe pol runs on the “we’ve got to bring in jobs” platform, like no other city every thought of that…and on it goes.

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-20 21:16:50

Corporate welfare has been going on a long time. A city will spend gazoodles of money to attract a few hundred jobs, just for the PR. Corporations know this full well and encourage cities to engage in a bidding war. After all is said and done, it would almost be cheaper to put the same # of people directly on the dole.

And as x-gsfixer said, “this has got to stop”.
There is or was a bill in congress/senate to stop this bidding war, all the while having bad effects on local economies hit by these wars.

 
 
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-20 15:58:09

Washington state has a very hostile business climate, despite what Forbes said. The most onerous is the Gross Reciepts Tax, which is an income tax paid not on net income but on top-line sales, whether the company is profitable or unprofitable. Washington is one of two states that impose such a tax. Also, Washington state has a very difficult Workmans Compensation system, even though Boeing is self funded for WC, they still have to abide by the Washington State WC regs. Throw in very high property taxes, a hostile union and gridlock trying to get into and out of the facilities, and I would say that yeah, Boeing would be leaving regardless of the incentives.

But hey, we will replace those with “green Jobs”

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Comment by DebtinNation
2009-11-20 19:23:32

Tell ‘em to send the jobs down our way to business-friendly California!

 
 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-20 18:27:56

Boeing is HQed in Chicago these days.

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Comment by DennisN
2009-11-20 18:57:50

Boeing originally set up shop in WA due to the cheap hydroelectric power there. To make aluminum you need lots of cheap electric power. To build aircraft you need lots of cheap aluminum. For many years during and after WWII WA state was a perfect place for aircraft manufacture. Now it’s cheaper to make the aluminum elsewhere and ship it to low-labor-cost states.

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Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-20 15:51:56

No, but Boeing is. My bet is Boeing will be substantially out of Seattle by 2020.

Comment by Silverback1011
2009-11-22 02:41:24

Wow, I had no idea that Boeing was making such a move. That will really hurt Seattle.

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Comment by DennisN
2009-11-20 09:13:55

They filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy in March. Since then, they’ve gotten rid of their expensive cars and downgraded. Macke takes care of the yard instead of paying for a gardener. ‘I got wrapped up in materialism. But in a painful way, this reminded me of important things, like a healthy family, that you lose perspective on when you’re trying to chase the American dream,’ he says.

Telegram to doofus: the American Dream was never about materialism. It was more about a comfortable life with a healthy family.

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-20 09:58:58

DennisN,

Again, notice these soul searchings only come about ‘after’ their little empire crumbled. When you’re making regular runs to Home Depot and dropping $300-$500 a weekend there, it wasn’t a problem.

Comment by Al
2009-11-20 10:25:09

Of course if they ever come into money again, they’ll lose their new found religion.

Comment by exeter
2009-11-20 11:11:30

“Of course if they ever come into money again, they’ll lose their new found religion.”

DING DING DING! We’ve got a winner!

The new frugality is forced these days. When the mirage of money growing on trees(MEW) was the theme, the genuine frugal types stood back and watched it all go down.

I have a brother back in no-mans-land who always boasts how cheap he is…… he stopped boasting when I told him he wasn’t frugal but poor because he’s chronically underemployed….. just like everyone else in VT and upstate NY. And the “value” of their precious real estate evaporates day after day.

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Comment by cereal
2009-11-20 12:36:19

DinOr - Bingo.

Al - Double Bingo.

These people want nothing more than to go back to the days of easy spending. They hope they can believe their own lies about adapting to new things.

What a desperate way to live.

Your basic bubblesitter otoh has no trouble dealing w/ frugality day in day out. It’s who we are. It’s what we’re made of. Bring it on baby.

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Comment by Al
2009-11-20 13:18:07

“Your basic bubblesitter otoh has no trouble dealing w/ frugality day in day out.”

And living a modest life style makes a few extravegences, like going out for dinner or an occasional vacation, actually feal like something special.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-20 13:59:19

“It’s who we are. It’s what we’re made of”

Bring it on indeed! I just gave a nice compliment to my nephew. He left St. Helens, OR to come live w/ us while he is going to jr. college. He took the 1st job that didn’t tell him ‘no’ and predictably ( it was at Subway )

Anyway, Chris calls me and says they like the way he runs his shift and makes sure everything is spiffy clean so they’re going to make him Asst./Asst. ‘closer’… guy?

I said, Chris, when we’re all in the midst of a robust economy and ‘everyone’ is “getting laid” it’s easy… to act like you’ve got class! ( It isn’t until things fall apart and you do what have to to get by that we find what people are “made of” )

Sure, he’s my NEPHEW fer’ chrissakes, what would you expect from an uncle other than a pep talk? But damn it, it’s the same one I give ‘myself’ every-damn-day.

 
 
Comment by apollo
2009-11-21 06:13:29

Bingo

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Comment by In Montana
2009-11-20 09:19:22

‘dream house’ in Rialto

Whoa, things have really changed since I lived in SoCal.

Comment by palmetto
2009-11-20 11:42:15

LOL, whenever I watch COPS, Rialto is always well represented on the program. In some ways, though, it looks like a nice enough place. At least on TV.

Comment by In Montana
2009-11-20 15:03:13

As I remember, lots of smog settles in that end of the valley. Upton, San B, even good ol’ Claremont…yecch.

 
 
 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-20 09:56:15

“For one thing, you don’t have to rely on the goobers on Wall Street”

Mind you, this coming from a loan peddler feeding another $3 mil. in bad loans into the system. ( Lord only knows how much she fed into it while in the biz? )

She’s only p!ssed it didn’t last long enough for her to cash in. Would they have been ‘goobers’ then my dear? WTF.

 
Comment by Skip
2009-11-20 10:01:05

“Homebuyer Eddie Espitia, 31, was spurred to action by the federal government’s tax credit of up to $8,000 for first-time buyers. Espitia started looking about six months ago, eventually touring more than two dozen homes from Brentwood to Gilroy to Hollister. He and his mother are combining forces on the purchase, and they searched for a quiet neighborhood and a house priced from about $300,000 to $325,000.”

Is this the same Eddie that posts here?

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-20 10:56:28

“In 2005, the bankruptcy law was changed to make it harder to file bankruptcy. After it took effect, filings dramatically dropped. But this year, filings are climbing and are expected to total 1.5 million, the level they were at before the tighter law took effect. These days, it’s ordinary middle-class Americans, not a marginalized underclass or high-stakes gamblers, who are most apt to experience financial failure.”

Megabank, Inc timed that law change pretty well for the incipient housing bust they helped to financially engineer.

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-20 12:46:00

PB,

Oh come on ( they’d been pushing for that change for years ) After an eternity of getting stiffed by “strategic filers” they put in place a common sense stop gap to end to some of those abuses.

As far as ‘timing’ it..? I realize I have my biases, but you’re really contorting here to get a conviction on Mega/Sh!tibank.

Comment by In Montana
2009-11-20 15:10:09

Chap 7 was pretty easy. Too good to last!

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Comment by Carl Morris
2009-11-20 11:02:50

Is this the same Eddie that posts here?

No, he’d never live in a 325k dump. That’s only fit for the help.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-20 18:31:33

A $300K house? You have to be kidding me.

 
 
Comment by Doug in Boone, NC
2009-11-20 10:10:30

“Short sales aren’t an option for everyone though. Mitchell Perry, a member of the US Navy stationed in Pensacola, bought his home at the peak of the market for $115,000. The house is now worth US$90,000 and Perry is being transferred to a new base. Compounding matters, Perry refinanced his house, without realising that his mortgage would rise to US$125,000.”

As a former military brat who had to move every three or four years, my question is why in the hell would someone in the military buy a house in the first place?”

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-11-20 10:29:48

Because if he/she didn’t buy, he/she would be a bitter renter.

BTW, five years ago today, I made the transition from being one of those bitter renters to being a homeowner.

Yeah, I know. HBB purists would argue that I’m not free ‘n’ clear of the mortgage, and that’s true. But I’m not paying rent to former landlady and her family back at Dysfunction Junction.

However, all is not perfect. This morning, I was out watering the north 40, and the neighbor’s dog decided that it would be a good time to go on the attack.

He saw me in my yard, and I saw him leaving his. He’d just jumped the six-foot fence that surrounds the back yard of the property.

I had a close eye on him. He started across the street in that menacing, stalking fashion that dogs use before they strike.

Well, I gave that dog my very best counter-attack yell, “Keeee-yaugggghhhh!”

And that dog fled the block. Ran out of the neighborhood and into the park.

I went and got my cell phone and called 911. While I was on the phone with 911 dispatch, three children walked by. They were en route to the school bus stop. Good thing that the dog had climbed the fence back into its yard.

Cops came pretty quickly. I gave a report, and they said they’d pass the info on to animal control. I also got a case number so I can request the report.

While all this was going on, the neighborhood association prez drove by and asked what was going on. I told her that I was almost attacked by the dog across the street, I was giving a report to the police, and I had a call in to my attorney.

Attorney’s an old friend of mine. He specializes in personal injury law. I’m going to ask him to write the neighbors a strongly worded lawyer letter about the consequences of allowing a dog to run loose.

There’s a lot of bicyclist and pedestrian traffic on my street, and no one should be in danger because the across-the-street neighbors don’t monitor their dog.

Comment by lavi d
2009-11-20 14:43:50

There’s a lot of bicyclist and pedestrian traffic on my street, and no one should be in danger because the across-the-street neighbors don’t monitor their dog.

One morning in Tucson on my bicycle, I turned east onto Calle Retama (West side, between Grant and Speedway, next to the RR.). Suddenly, the street behind me was full of dogs giving chase. I pedaled like mad, zipping up through the gears (Thank god for level ground!) and managed not to hit the ones peeling out of yards in front of me. I made it to 15th and they stopped following.

The only conclusion I can come to is that neighborhood must be a tiny indian reservation, where dogs are allowed to roam free.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-11-20 17:49:50

You’re right about that nabe being a tiny rez, lavi. Matter of fact, it’s an urban rez of sorts. Pascua Yaqui tribe.

I’ve been told that when the paramedics go in there, they call for police backup. And did I mention that they’re also not too friendly to the police? A member of the Tucson Police Department told me that.

As mentioned before, I volunteer for Habitat for Humanity Tucson, which has its HQ near to the street lavi mentions. Whenever I’m over at the Habitat office, I make a point not to go any further west. Reason: I’d be going right into that nabe that lavi just described.

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Comment by Watching the Carnage
2009-11-20 20:19:53

Arizona Slim,

Wow, I didn’t realize there was a recognized counter attack yell. I thought I invented it. I had a wild moment when a loose pit bull was suddenly chasing down my 6YO son…that thing you did “Keeee-yaugggghhhh!” came out of my mouth without thought or planning - at decibel levels and with ferocity that impresses me to this day.

Friggin dog stopped dead in his tracks - long enough to get my son to safety. It was a purely gutteral response. “Keeee-yaugggghhhh!” works for dogs - I just wish it would work on the clueless dog owners that put children and people at risk. The dog owner actually had the opinion that my son was at fault because he ran from the dog. Keep in mind, this occurred on my property. And yes, we are dog owners.

And in keeping with the HBB theme - this family was foreclosed and left the neighborhood “Keeee-yaugggghhhh!”

Comment by lavi d
2009-11-20 20:24:47

Wow, I didn’t realize there was a recognized counter attack yell.

Years ago, a friend of mine showed me how easy it is to stop an untrained dog. You just shout forcefully, “GO LAY DOWN” or “GET BACK IN THE YARD” or “DOWN” just as if it were your own dog. This really works, I’ve used it many times.

Although in your case, with a child at risk, I think a more natural, ferocious response is the better tactic.

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Comment by DD
2009-11-20 21:30:59

my very best counter-attack yell, “Keeee-yaugggghhhh!”

As a 10-18 yo biking through the streets between orchards in Hemet, I got chased by plenty of german shepherds who appeared out of nowhere. I biked pretty fast in those days.

I could have used that well recognized Counter Attack yell.

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Comment by MightyMike
2009-11-20 11:00:01

Come on now, you know the answer to that question, don’t you? Houses are a great investment. House prices only go up. You could rent during those three or four years, but renting is throwing money away. Buy a house and you’ll be able to sell it three or four years later at a big profit.

 
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-20 11:41:44

I agree, its particularly stroubling to see our fine military people get trapped in houses they can’t sell. And, when the orders come, not going is not an option. Forclosure for them is a more difficult propostion as it can go into thier fitness report, which can have a negative impact on thier career advancement.

I suppose they buy houses because it gives them some sense of stability in a relatively unstable lifestyle. Plus, in lots of places, (Spokane is an example) it is very difficult to find reasonably nice SF rental porperties.

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-20 12:40:39

Guys,

Think… “community bike”. It’s there for whomever should need it at the time. Although pay has recently skyrocketed, in the past for a G.I to clear say, 5 grand after renting it out and then selling it some officer or sr. enlisted couple, that was ‘huge’ money!

For them, “giving your BAQ ( basic allowance for quarters ) to a landlord” ‘can’ be waste of an entitlement. Several guys at my Air Guard unit have rentals from FL to CA. And these guys will tell you, they’re no financial wiz!

Many times couples will only buy a home where they fully intend to retire years later but would like to purchase ‘where’ they ultimately will to make their ret. more manageable.

Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-20 13:26:41

Rentals from Ca to Fl, if that won’t keep you awake at night, nothing will. I owned a rental property once and it was only a mile from my house. Sold it after about four years. That ranked as the fourth happiest day of my life after the birth of my kids and my wedding day.

I accumulated a lifetime of renters stories in a quick four years.

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Comment by DinOR
2009-11-20 16:01:33

Still not sure why I’m bucking such a headwind here?

If for whatever reason the current owner were displeased w/ the active-duty-military-tenant he could make life very hard for that tenant in nothing flat!

One phone call to the unit commander w/ a bounced rent check and he will be hauled into his office that same day! This isn’t the free for all civilian world guys. As such, the guys -know- it, so there isn’t much sense playing games w/ your sr. officers. Especially when it comes to housing.

 
Comment by MightyMike
2009-11-20 16:40:39

Yes, but there are problems for landlords as well. I have a colleague here in AZ who owns a condo in San Diego that she rents out. Her tenants are often naval officers and their families. Apparently there’s a federal law that says that service members are allowed to break their leases if they get ordered to some other base.
Of course, it’s quite reasonable that there should be a law to protect our service members in these situations, but it makes things difficult for the landlords.

 
 
 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-20 13:11:26

Because military folks were never the brightest people on earth, when they signed up or else they would have found some other employment.

That’s what rental mobile home parks are for temporary housing.
——————————————
As a former military brat who had to move every three or four years, my question is why in the hell would someone in the military buy a house in the first place?”

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-20 16:05:20

“never the brightest people”

Usually on a Friday most of us would let that ride. Suffice to say there are those among us that are a little tired of that stereotype.

Truth is, less than 15% of males 18 to 25 can even get through the screening process. Even fewer make it through tech school. Not sure how many that post here are fluent in Arabic? But… if perpetuate it you must…

Comment by DennisN
2009-11-20 19:05:41

George S. Patton made a career of the Army even though he never had to work. He was born into a very wealthy Santa Barbara ranching family and could have adopted the dissolute lifestyle of other trust-fund brats.

Instead he had a passion to make his own way as a warrior.

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Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-20 19:27:06

yeah that was a little harsh…but military was never a choice in my HS or college on my street we had only 2 that went in the service.

It did not change them for the better.

But when I lived in SC or ohio or other places the service was close to the top of peoples lists right next to a post office job.

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Comment by robiscrazy
2009-11-20 17:42:42

DinOR,

I remember being 19 y.o with 1 year college under my belt. Out of curiosity, I went to the local military recruitment office and took whatever exam they were giving. In the van ride back from the base to my little rural community the recruiter was looking at the dismal scores and when he hit mine he called out “Jesus Christ, we got a brain here”.

Keep in mind I’m not the brightest bulb in the pack. The point is, all the other applicants had problems such as no HS diploma, criminal record, overweight at a young age, and couldn’t even pass the basic test we were taking. One guy was on his second attempt at the exam. This was in 1986. Wonder what it’s like now?

Comment by In Montana
2009-11-20 19:35:03

I don’t know but my step got in and that was a surprise to me.

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Comment by Eddie
2009-11-20 18:33:55

John Kerry is that you?

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-20 21:37:02

As a former military brat

1- you are never a former military brat. Once one, always one!
2- “we” only owned 2 homes in my early 18 yrs.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-20 10:54:08

“In a telephone interview Thursday, one of the alleged California victims expressed delight that charges were finally filed. ‘Yes, yes,’ said Anna Richter, who moved to Houston after being coaxed into buying three Murrieta homes and later losing them. ‘That’s where they should have been for the last three years. I can’t even describe how happy I am to finally see some movement.’”

Where are the homes lost by these specuvestors now? Let me guess: Some TARP-funded bank is sitting on them until they have the chance to sell them for higher prices in the 2010 housing market recovery?

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-11-20 11:10:06

Where are the homes lost by these specuvestors now? Let me guess: Some TARP-funded bank is sitting on them until they have the chance to sell them for higher prices in the 2010 housing market recovery?

And we all know that vacant, unattended houses improve with age.

 
Comment by arizonadude
2009-11-20 13:09:51

I was watching the business channel this morning and now the USDA is offering 0 down loans in rural areas.I think it is called the rural development program.Your community has to have < 20k population.The government is really encouraging people to buy homes.I smell desperation.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-20 10:58:23

“At bank after bank, the examiners are discovering that state and federal regulators knew lenders were engaging in hazardous business practices but failed to act until it was too late. ‘We all could have done a better job,’ said Sheila C. Bair, the chairwoman of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.”

Where is the mea culpa from the failed regulators at the Fed?

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-20 12:06:19

Professor Bear,

Curious to get your feedback on this one? I can only speak to my local experience but something one of my fellowe office tenants said last night was a little spooky.

We were discussing a local commercial property here in Marion County, OR that had fallen into arrears on taxes. Long, pre-bubble story. Anyway, he and two partners formed an LLC to acquire a small building back in 2005. At the time, one of his partners had about $500k w/ the very same local bank that failed in Feb. 2009.

When they went to apply for a loan ( w/ ample down payment and liquidity ) they were never told ‘no’ but the process drug on and on and they needed this and they needed that and they finally went w/ another lender that basically did the loan on the spot! I had a similar circumstance where I acompanied a client to their “mortgage office” ( and this guy has like an 825 fico and ample liquidity ) and it was the same thing back in 2007.

The question is, were a great many of these “banks” really nothing more than private equity groups? I mean seriously, not one person I know actually got a loan there? ‘My’ client was told there was hesitation b/c the property he wanted to finance was “out of the area” ( well, Eastern OR ) After reading the FDIC prepared Material Loss Review, HELL, at the same time, as well as prior, they were making loans all OVER the damn state ( and ‘that’ evidently didn’t bother ‘them’? ) I know az_lender latched me on to William K. Black’s “Control Fraud” and I’m sure it applies ‘here’ but is there something ‘else’ going on you or others have been exposed to over the years?

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-11-20 13:54:31

“‘Hindsight is a wonderful thing,’ said Timothy W. Long, the chief bank examiner for the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency. ‘At the height of the economic boom, to take an aggressive supervisory approach and tell people to stop lending is hard to do.’”

Hindsight? Tim, I don’t think it’s possible to see anything when you’ve got your head up your a$$.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-20 11:01:42

“‘Clearly, things are worse than most of us would have anticipated,’ said Stephen Cauley, director of research at the UCLA Ziman Center for Real Estate. ‘And lower income homeowners are not the only ones hurting. The value of upper-income homes have gone down about as much, and in some cases it can make a lot of sense for people to walk away from the mortgage. If a homeowner owes $80,000 on a house that’s worth only $60,000, it might make sense to give it back to the bank.’”

I am quite certain the editor missed a couple of zeros in this passage:

‘If a homeowner owes $80,000 $800,000 on a house that’s worth only $60,000 $600,000, it might make sense to give it back to the bank.’

Comment by arizonadude
2009-11-20 13:12:08

I was wondering about the numbers too.You would be nuts to walk away from an 80k house that is worth 60k.

 
 
Comment by polly
2009-11-20 11:04:52

A young colleague of mine and her husband are about to buy a town house in Gaithersburg, MD. They were originally looking at SFHs in the Silver Spring area, but nothing was livable (best story was the one illegally subdivided into a boarding house with rooms the size of a mattress on the floor). Buying into an older development (more than 10 years, less than 20), three bedroom with 2 full and 2 half baths. Partially finished basement. New HVAC and recently redone kitchen. They are paying about $325K while units in the same development (possibly without the updates) went for $450K about 2 years ago. It isn’t going to be a fun commute (over an hour on a good day by my guess), but she said the schools are good enough to not have to go private. They are looking for kids soon.

I think that this is a safe mortgage for them even if they aren’t doing a big downpayment. She said they qualified for the new tax credit though they wouldn’t have under the old rules so they are bringing in between $170K and $225K together.

But I am still a little sad. In three or four years maybe they could have gotten a house in Bethesda or Potomac or Chevy Chase. They are going to be way out in G-burg which isn’t the boonies but isn’t at all like the area they live now.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-11-20 11:11:59

They are looking for kids soon.

I wasn’t aware that was how kids happened. I thought that some other activity was involved.

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-20 13:29:25

SING ALONG NOW:

“Looking for kids in all the wrong places…”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-20 23:15:34

“Looking for kids…”

Lights are not required…

 
 
Comment by John Danger
2009-11-20 11:41:43

So …. they are looking for kids soon. This means a few months before they decide (best case scenario) plus a few months before they succeed (again best case scenario) plus nine months plus 4-5 years before the need to be in a good school district. Please show me ONE person who know what’s going to happen to the housing market in 7 years!

Comment by Bad Chile
2009-11-20 15:18:33

It cracks me up when people say you can’t raise kids in a rental. Mini-chile is five months old and has spent his entire life in a rented apartment.

I’m still waiting for the Department of Social Services to show up and take him away.

Now, granted I’m in my mid-30s (closer to 40 than 30) so maybe I really don’t care what people think of me, but I really don’t care if people think we’re unfit parents because we have a kid in an apartment. And I’m really glad I can spend my free time with him instead of fixing stuff (or wasting time on the HBB while he takes a nap).

With the way communities are changing these days, I’d hate to buy into a “good” school district even now - five years out - only to see it hit the skids while property taxes go through the roof to make up shortfalls in other areas of the budget.

 
 
Comment by The_Overdog
2009-11-20 12:25:39

It’s barely 2X their income, and if they make $225k, then they are in the top 1% of all incomes in the US. They can afford it just fine, and seem very conservative to me.

However, with no kids and that income, they should have been able to save a few grand for the downpayment. At $170k, their combined income is $14k per month, so after tax income is close to or higher than $8k giveway every month .

If you can’t save money with that income, you need to go speak to a personal financial advisor.

Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2009-11-20 17:12:20

“It’s barely 2X their income, and if they make $225k, then they are in the top 1% of all incomes in the US. They can afford it just fine, and seem very conservative to me.”

I would argue that if they are in the top 1% of all incomes they should be able to afford a home that is at least in the top 10%. At the very least, with this kind of income, they should be able to avoid a 1 hour+ commute.

Any chance you could get them to post their intentions here and let the blog tell them why this could be a very bad idea in terms of quality of life if nothing else? I think it’s worked for a few other FHBB’s. (Friends of HBBers.) :D Maybe hearing a few other voices might get them to rethink this purchase?

Comment by DD
2009-11-20 21:50:45

Please show me ONE person who know what’s going to happen to the housing market in 7 years!
‘xactly.

Maybe hearing a few other voices might get them to rethink this purchase?

And- a 3rd party voice is always more effective than ‘mom or dad’s opinion’.

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Comment by skb
2009-11-20 12:37:49

With that kind of income, why no big down payment?

Why feel sad? I am sure you have told them and like many others refuse to wait and listen, no reason for you to feel sad.

Comment by polly
2009-11-20 12:50:56

I didn’t say they didn’t have one. I said I didn’t know. She is barely two years out of law school and has student loans. He probably graduated at about the same time and likely has student loans of his own. She started in by office as part of an intern program so her income was likely half what it is now just over two years ago. Not sure about him.

I didn’t say they couldn’t afford it either. I’m just sad that they committed themselves to place so far away from work to get something affordable in a good elementary school district when a few years from now I think they would be able to get more in a better place for the same money.

It is a lament about rushing rather than a lament about new FB’s.

 
 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-20 18:55:34

Maybe they don’t want to wait 4 years of renting an apartment with kids. I know most of you think having kids in apartments is just swell. I’m glad this couple decided a bit of a commute is worth their kids’ well being.

Comment by DD
2009-11-20 21:53:06

Is this the voice of ZOD?

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-20 22:23:34

A kid does not know the difference between the ceiling of an apartment and a ceiling of a house Eddie!

I remember being one of four kids in a bedroom in an apartment when I was 4 years old back in 1963.

Jeebus!

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-20 23:10:45

We rent a four bedroom home. For our rent money, we get free yard care (I personally hate doing it, so it is very, very valuable for me), outstanding schools, and a landlord-paid recreational club membership. We also avoided maybe $200,000 in home equity losses sustained by those who bought comparable housing in the mid-2000s.

Can’t complain — renting is the Life of Ryan so far as I am concerned…

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-20 23:13:48

P.S. The $200,000 “opportunity gain” of not buying a home should be sufficient to pay our rent for another three years as we patiently wait for housing to reach a sustainable equilibrium price, given local incomes and willingness to pay for housing.

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Comment by Nathan in Fresno
2009-11-20 11:29:28

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/state&id=7101769&rss=rss-kfsn-article-7101769

November 6th
By Dale Yurong

FRESNO, Calif. (KFSN) — California has long been regarded as the land of opportunity. But today the state is setting troubling trends because of its economic problems.

The allure of Hollywood in a star-struck state is undeniable. The palm tree paradise has shaped the California dream. Breathtaking beaches are portrayed as playgrounds for the rich and famous.

The stunning views inspire and impress but a reality check does not paint a pretty picture.

An exclusive Action News poll conducted by Survey USA showed just 27-percent of valley residents rate California as one of the best places to live.

Fresno State history professor Dan Cady said, “The California dream is mostly myth because there’s opportunity everywhere but California’s been particularly good at selling that dream.”

A commercial featuring the state’s majestic scenery mesmerized college grad Jason Hare back home in Philadelphia. Hare explained, “As somebody who’s always wanted to move to California that’s just the enticement you need to get out here.”

But those sexy scenes didn’t match Fresno’s reality.

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-20 22:26:31

I remember Dale Yurong as a news reporter back in the late 1980s when I was visiting my parents back home in Fresno. Good to know he’s still reporting.

27% of valley residents rate California as one of the best places to live.

Is that because 73% of them never ventured out of the valley?

 
 
Comment by polly
2009-11-20 11:38:25

Jobs article. Read the whole thing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/fashion/22genb.html?hpw

Comment by WT Economist
2009-11-20 13:45:57

Boomers can’t move in with their parents anymore, and besides, many got a better education than those coming after.

I would expect that if one broke out the 60s generation and the 70s generation, the latter would be found to be worse off, again.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-11-20 17:56:33

Oh, brother. If I moved in with my parents, the honey-do list would be 10 miles long. I’d practically be rebuilding their house by the time I was done.

 
 
 
Comment by palmetto
2009-11-20 11:45:40

Does anyone know the implications of Cap N’ Trade for home sellers? I’m reading a lot of stuff right now, but it has sort of an alarmist tone and I’m not sure it is entirely accurate. But something about having to retro-fit your house to certain specs in order to be able to sell it, and having to post a license or certificate that the house is up to EPA specs or whatever.

Sounds like a bit over the top, but the way things are going in CONgress with the health care bill, hate crime laws, etc., nothing would surprise me.

If the above is true, then renting is definitely where it’s at.

Comment by DennisN
2009-11-20 12:11:42

What? You haven’t heard the latest plan to stimulate house-buying? There will be a 15% surcharge on Federal income tax on all slacker renters…..

Comment by palmetto
2009-11-20 12:32:40

LOL, would NOT surprise me. It’s like putting renting on the same level as smoking, or drinking sugary drinks. Tax the stuff, that’s the ticket.

 
 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-11-20 15:47:56

You can be assured that Cap and Trade will generate all kinds of “unintended consequences”………some of them might even be positive.

Pointing the negatives out will just mean that you will be labeled as “not a team player”.

Comment by pismoclam
2009-11-21 12:38:25

You will have to get your house inspected ($fee) by the feds (acorn ?) and bring your house to NEW energy standards before you can sell it. Also need to get it inspected every two years similar to a smog inspection. Pay the gov as well as the inspector. Put in the bill by the Marxist Mackey (D) of Mass., helped by the little twirp environmental wacko bobby kennedy. Enjoy.

 
 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-20 19:05:52

You will go to jail if you don’t buy insurance. Why is is so alarmist to think they will force you to retrofit your house or risk jailtime/fine. Hey it’s all to stop global warming - or is it now climate change - so it’s all good man.

Comment by DD
2009-11-20 22:01:46

You will go to jail if you don’t buy insurance.

Massive case of non-comprehension going on here.

 
 
Comment by In Montana
2009-11-20 19:42:42

Cap and trade? It’s history.
http://tinyurl.com/yeshbra

 
 
Comment by Biff Henderson
2009-11-20 12:10:59

‘Apparently the mortgage industry gives you cancer.’”

No, the mortgage industry IS a Cancer

 
Comment by Biff Henderson
2009-11-20 12:14:31

Don’t give up. Just keep looking. You can do it. Everybody can these days.’”

The fact that everybody could do it lead to a housing bubble, looks like we are still in one when 20 year old office managers can buy houses.

 
Comment by Biff Henderson
2009-11-20 12:18:31

“After filing for bankruptcy in 2008, Schubert hasn’t found a full-time job but has been doing freelance design work. She says she has designed a new handbag line and is looking for investors to help recharge her business.”

Let me know when “designer handbags” become a necessity over food, rent and utilities. I’d be better off investing in beanie babies.

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-20 13:41:28

All appearances in these parts suggest that designer handbags are a necessity. No self-respecting soccer mommy leaves the house without her Prada bag. (Maybe Schubert thought she was jumping on a bandwagon and had fantasies of becoming the next Kate Spade?)

In protest of the uber designer purses I keep using a Talbot’s backpack (bought 50% off) that is literally threadbare. It looks like bloody hell but it’s my subversive statement of 2009.

Comment by In Montana
2009-11-20 15:42:13

I still use my Healthy Back Bag®

 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-11-20 15:50:20

Prada?…..I thought it was Dooney and Bourke.

Or is it Boonie and Dork?

 
 
Comment by wolfgirl
2009-11-20 13:50:52

Saw an ad for a new store opening soon-make your own jewelry. Apparently you can buy your beads and other stuff there and then make your jewelry without leaving the store.

Comment by Biff Henderson
2009-11-20 15:26:14

I see a new TV show coming “Can you make better bead jewelry than a fifth grader” ?

 
Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2009-11-20 17:17:36

Michael’s offer courses on jewelry making. Costs for set-up materials are stiff, but if you are artistic and like beaded jewelry it’s not a bad idea as you can reuse beads in new patterns over and over again. Unfortunately, some of us just don’t have the artistic touch for making it look right. :(

(PS Anyone want to buy some jewelry making supplies cheap?)

Comment by DD
2009-11-20 22:07:40

bedazzlers made a come back so plan ahead!

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-11-20 18:00:30

Okay, I can’t resist. I’m a freelance designer too. My gig is web development for science, technology, and math programs at universities. Business is good right now, and I expect it to improve in 2010.

I’m benefiting from a megatrend, and that’s the movement of communication materials away from print and toward digital format.

Just look at universities for a minute. Few among my clientele print course catalogs or campus phonebooks anymore. That’s all on the Web now. Same goes for student recruiting materials. And applications. That’s done online too.

Courses are moving online now too. One of my most loyal University of Arizona clients has already had me design the interface for two of his online courses, and I may be asked to do a third in a few months.

As for handbag design? Wouldn’t touch it with a bargepole. This isn’t the sort of economy that favors things that are dependent on discretionary consumer spending.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-20 19:47:45

Slim

Ask your client what do you do with old school people who like the classroom and hands on training?

Are the on line course in real time? so if i have a question he can answer right back?
————————————————
One of my most loyal University of Arizona clients has already had me design the interface for two of his online courses,

 
 
Comment by apollo
2009-11-21 07:11:30

And who is going to “Invest” in a designer handbag business with a principal that filed bankruptcy just a few years ago? Are people really this delusional?

 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-11-20 12:24:38

Leave it up to Congress/Senate to pass laws that are counter-productive to
other Acts they pass . For instance, Congress/Senate passed a law that
a party wouldn’t be taxed on forgiven debt by the Bank ,and they wonder why even people who could afford the payment are walking from mortgages these days .

These Congressman and Senators are dangerous these days because they have become so reliant on the lobbyist telling them what to do and what to think that it’s alarming . Do the Politicians even analyze what might happen if they pass a law that a special interest group is pushing for?. The politicians seem incapable of tackling health care reform without undue influence from the special interest groups . Isn’t there a requirement
to at least make sure that unintended consequences or harm to a certain sector might result from responding to a special interest group ?

Its just like when the Regulators failed to do their job because they didn’t want to ruffle the feathers of the special interest groups that were making so much money off the faulty toxic loan making during the boom that was stimulating the economy .

We are now at a time where a correction of faulty systems ,or correction of what lobbyist were able to get before need a overhaul . To give any credit to the lobbyist that created the problems to begin with and accept their solutions is just plain absurd . The Politicians have to think outside the box now ,and become dedicated to saving America . Its not about lobbyist anymore ,it’s all about what Acts will save the
Ship .

Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-11-20 15:55:04

The DC Rats are starting to realize that the pitchforks are being pulled out of the barn and sharpened. So they are starting to turn on each other.

Hence, displays like yesterday’s TurboTax Timmay’s testimony/interrogation.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-11-20 18:01:56

Which leads Slim to launch the HBB TTT betting pool. Let’s start placing bets on when TTT returns to that New York house that he can’t sell.

Comment by Eddie
2009-11-20 19:08:46

Meh, he’ll be replaced with someone else like Corzine. Meet the new boss and so forth.

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Comment by pismoclam
2009-11-21 12:29:19

Forget you ! Sen. (D) Mary Landreau of Lousiana sold her vote on Obamacare for $100Million. They’re all wh-res.

 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-11-20 13:00:45

In fact ,I will go so far as to say that the time has come for a Commission of the greatest brains in the United States to be hired by our Government
to tackle the problem of how to save America ,and how to disentangle from the mistakes of letting Wall Street gain so much control ,reigning in Wall Street/Banks/Power Groups and the unregulated worlds of Casino bets ,monopolies and price fixing ,etc. Further, this Commission needs to tackle the problems of the open borders regarding outsourcing and manufacturing going to other Countries and immigration and uncontrolled money supply and trade imbalances .

The objective of the Commission should be to determine the least painful way to return American to its operating systems pursuant to the goal of a time that America was operational prior to the Reign of the Greed Machine taking over . Also a additional objective of the Commission should be to determine the best possible operational system for Employers regarding benefits
to employees ,rather than Employers not being able to meet their obligations . The Commission would also be hired to determine the best possible way to solve the health care system breakdown . All solutions would need to be kept within the framework of the Constitution and
long term accepted laws .

I hate to use this as a example ,but they hired the greatest minds in the World to come up with the BOMB ,and they did ,and maybe it saved the World in spite of some of the pain it cause with some of the bombs dropped . (Don’t take this example the wrong way ,but the evils of
the Power groups that took over America have the same kind of insanity that Hilter and Japan had when they wanted to take over the World).
This might be one of the most crazy posts I have ever made ,but than again it might have merit .

Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2009-11-20 17:20:22

“I will go so far as to say that the time has come for a Commission of the greatest brains in the United States to be hired by our Government to tackle the problem of how to save America”

It sounds like a great idea, but so many of the posters here are opposed to government employment they would never take the job. :D

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-20 20:00:49

My first order of business would be to force everyone to learn how to read, write and speak English without swearing or using the N word. Of course that would decimate the rap, hip hop market.

Our country cannot survive with so many functionally illiterate people anymore.

 
Comment by pismoclam
2009-11-21 12:45:02

The only thing I want the government to do is force the ‘people’ to READ the Constitution in English.

 
 
 
Comment by Pinch-a-penny
2009-11-20 13:21:12

Sorry to post way ot of topic, but could not resist… For all those global warming crusaders out there, it seems that you were duped.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100017393/climategate-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/

Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2009-11-20 17:32:42

Oh thank God they found this “data” and have disproven global climate change conclusively. I will keep this “proof” in mind the next time California has yet another big fire the likes and frequency of which were not evident in my childhood, a polar bear is filmed starving to death, a walrus leaves behind her baby to die because she can’t get to an ice berg to rest with it, or a Scripps Institute of Oceanography researcher tells me the plankton levels in the oceans have fallen 50% because the temperatures are getting warmer and they need cooler temps.

Comment by Pinch-a-penny
2009-11-20 20:57:05

No, what this has shown is that certain cabal of “scientists” are willing to falsify, coerce, and threaten colleagues if they are not in agreement with their theorem.
In scientfic circles, openes, access to the information, and repeatability of the experiments are the cornerstone of peer reviewed papers. Except when it is man-made climate change that is the theorem.
Global climate change has happened before, is happening right now, and will happen in the future with or without the help of the hairless apes that happen to think that their impact is much higher than it really is.

 
 
Comment by robiscrazy
2009-11-20 18:07:29

Anyone remember back in the early 1980’s some scientists were convinced we were entering a new ice age? I remember being a kid in junior high school watching a PBS documentary on the subject and being scared. There was a cooling trend. The polar ice caps were expanding. People would have to flock towards the equator.

Guess it never happened. Makes it hard to take global warming seriously.

Comment by socaljettech
2009-11-20 20:24:51

I remember it well- and yes you’re right- very hard to take them serious

 
 
 
Comment by swguy
2009-11-20 15:30:28

Improving sales and prices???
Lets see in the last 3 weeks three short sale homes fell thru and a lender owned came back on the market. A home development now advertises 10% down on million dollar homes and 40% off purchase price.
A 4.1 million dollar home fell off and is now back on the market for 1.3m a very steep drop don’t you think?
All I see is continue depression not recession yet the powers to be are giddy about a recovery soon.
Folks from what I see and i still see pretty good, if this house and commercial market doesn’t get better by early spring invest in cardboard box companies because a lot of people are going to live in them.

Comment by San Diego RE Bear
2009-11-20 17:45:12

“Folks from what I see and i still see pretty good, if this house and commercial market doesn’t get better by early spring invest in cardboard box companies because a lot of people are going to live in them.”

Maybe we should just go by furniture stores once a week and get the big boxes. Then when the decline continues we can offer government subsidized housing to people? :D

(In all seriousness, I agree with you that there is lots of lipstick on the pig right now and some bad stuff may be coming. But I’m not discounting high levels of denial preventing a single bad event, leading instead to years and years of lowering standards of living for most of us. I would have preferred the band-aid being ripped off last year before trillions of dollars more debt was added to the liabilities column. Now I just don’t know if that would work.)

Comment by oxide
2009-11-20 18:18:08

Maybe we should just go by furniture stores once a week and get the big boxes.

Hey! We used to do that when we were kids. If a furniture truck or a Sears truck was spotted in the neighborhood, the word would spread up and down the block. We would “secretly” follow the truck to the lucky house. We would all politely attempt to hide, and wait for some appropriate time (for kids, that’s about 5 minutes), and then some brave soul would knock on the door and ask for the box.

They made great forts.

(obviously this was pre-computer, and pre-cable.)

Comment by DD
2009-11-20 22:15:52

Frig boxes were awesome forts, “ahh I remember it well”(GiGi)

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-20 17:31:35

Looking on the bright side of the picture, at least San Diego real estate prices are increasing again, despite wicked high unemployment.

Unemployment will stay high in California through fall 2010
November 20, 3:23 PM

As if California’s state budget woes weren’t enough. Even though most economists are predicting a some hiring across the country starting midyear 2010, California’s unemployed masses will not be among the fortunate. California will miss every early inkling of economic growth that the nation might see next year, and unemployment will most likely stay high in California until close to the end of year. Here’s why;

From the extra two percent the studios were unwilling to give the WGA during the most recent round of contract negotiations to the increase in ticket prices at your local Loews theater, the local media industry has been hurting for a few years now. This year television stations have seen big drops in ratings and in turn big losses in ad revenue. Several major cities have had their daily newspapers file for bankruptcy or gone online only, even Orange County’s Register is in trouble. Consumers have become more technologically savvy and less inclined to support the entertainment and media industry’s traditional platforms. To play catch up, entertainment companies are shedding more and more traditional jobs meaning more Angelenos will be out of work. Many industry leaders meeting at the annual Allen and Company Sun Valley Conference in Sun Valley, Idaho this year stated they don’t see the entertainment industry- outside of the internet- growing robustly until well past the time the rest of the economy is healthy in 2011 or 2012. That means no real job growth until around the same time frame locally, and the types of positions that will become available will be very different from what’s available today.

Comment by Eddie
2009-11-20 19:22:37

And yet, try finding a livable home in California for under $750K. And by livable I mean no need to put bars on the windows and in a school district where classes are taught in English.

This is what $500K buys. Did the Bradys live here? Yaouza.

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/reb/1455430414.html

This is what $700K buys..35 years old, 6000 sq ft lot and 2000 sq ft.

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/reb/1468811562.html

Guess those unemployment benefits must be pretty good in Cali these days. Or maybe, just maybe, things aren’t as bad as the MSM makes it out to be? Nah, that’s crazy talk.

Comment by Silverback1011
2009-11-22 02:57:44

What’s wrong with the $ 500K house, Eddie ? It’s far nicer than the one my husband & I currently live in. You must want a palace next to the Shah’s. Geesh.

 
 
 
Comment by DD
2009-11-20 21:02:09

http://realestate.msn.com/slideshow.aspx?cp-documentid=22519878&GT1=35000

10 cities where prices have rebounded.

Really?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-20 23:18:44

So I think I am almost through with the anger phase of the housing bubble stages of grief.

Not so much UC students, though:

News Updates:
UC Regents Approve 32 Percent Fee Hike Amid Angry Protests
By Riya Bhattacharjee

Thursday November 19, 2009

The UC Regents approved a fee hike at a meeting on the UCLA campus today (Thursday, Nov. 19) to address a $1.2 billion deficit next year, amid angry protests throughout the 10-campus University of California system.

Student regent Jesse Bernal was the only one to vote against the fee increases.

As a result of the hike, undergraduates and graduate professional school students will see a 15 percent increase in winter-spring 2010 fees, amounting to $585. Graduate students will see a 2.6 percent increase, amounting to $111.

Starting summer 2010, all students will see an additional 15 percent, or $1,334, increase.

A contingent of students from UC Berkeley, UC Santa Cruz and UC San Diego left for UCLA Wednesday, the first day of a three-day strike on the Berkeley campus, to protest at the regents’ meeting.

Students rallied, cheered, shouted and marched downtown to voice their concerns Wednesday.

According to local media blogs in Los Angeles, angry cries erupted outside the regents’ meeting room at UCLA while they discussed the fee hikes. UC President Mark G. Yudof has encouraged students to explore all available options, including scholarships, to fund their studies instead of getting discouraged and dropping out.

At UC Berkeley, students and faculty members held open discussions all over campus today.

The strike reached its peak at 3 p.m., when students and custodians dumped days-old trash from the different campus buildings outside California Hall, where UC Berkeley Chancellor Robert Birgeneau works, to protest recent custodian layoffs.
,,,

 
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