November 22, 2009

HBB Rates The Media: The Southwest

Another look at the media and the housing bubble, in the southwest.

The good:

The Denver Post, March 2005: “‘Lenders started giving money to people, and it’s gotten out of hand,’ said Jeannie Reeser, public trustee of Adams County. ‘I am talking to people who have jobs, but their income doesn’t come anywhere close to matching their financing.’”

“Soaring foreclosure filings in Arapahoe County for the first three months of this year helped drive metro Denver’s foreclosure rate 34 percent higher than the same period of last year and 30 percent higher than the fourth quarter of 2004. The rate represents 1.3 percent of 125,325 single-family, owner-occupied houses in the county.”

“One mortgage lender says…’Everybody has to have what they want right now, no waiting, no saving up,’ he said. ‘Credit is so loose today that I can buy the groceries I need on a credit card, eat the food tonight, discard the food by tomorrow at noon and finance my debt on a 30-year, amortized loan. How stupid is that? But people do it all the time - and then they wonder why they’re in foreclosure.’”

Rocky Mountain News, May 2005: “In the Boulder-Longmont area, 54 percent of loans made last year were interest-only, up from 11 percent in 2002. In Denver, 50 percent of loans in 2004 were interest-only, up from 6 percent in 2002. Wil Armstrong, of a mortgage firm, said it was too early to know whether the interest-only loans will produce fallout. ‘It wouldn’t surprise me to see these have a higher delinquency rate, ultimately.’”

“‘There’s not a cushion there if the market were to soften,’ said Ira Litke. ‘A high percentage of them are highly leveraged.”

Dalllas Morning News, May 2005: “To say that local prices won’t fall simply because they’ve risen more elsewhere is equally naïve. In fact, a lack of appreciation in a market like Dallas can be downright toxic, especially if new supply continues to flood the market.”

“Too often, local readers e-mail that they can’t get their 1- or 2-year-old home appraised for what they paid. All the while, new developments keep popping up as fast and as far as the eye can see. Teardowns are occurring at a pace last seen just before the late 1980s crash.”

“‘There is an enormous demand for investment real estate,’ Joe Milkes said. ‘As a result, prices are getting pushed up.’ It’s becoming more common to see a single buyer gobble up a dozen homes at a time at new developments. Add a bit of speculation to the supply and demand and you get a partial explanation for why local foreclosures remain so much higher than the rest of the country, and why it’s dangerous to assume that there’s no downside risk in local home prices.”

The East Valley Tribune in Arizona, April 2005: “Jackie Cole, a RE/MAX agent, said ’she recently sold a former rental property that was in ‘terrible condition. It came out on the market at $445,000. We had people bidding against each other and the sale price ended up at $545,000. This is the craziest I’ve ever seen it.’”

The Arizona Republic, April 2005: “As prices continue to climb there, the Ahillens say they are forced to look at smaller homes and act more quickly. ‘You find if you don’t act now, you’re going to get priced out of the market.’ The Ahillens said they want to keep the home they now own in Tempe as an investment for their 3 1/2-month-old son’s college education, which means they need to finance 100 percent of the purchase price in Gilbert.”

“Joi Belinda said an adjustable-rate mortgage, with its lower interest rate initially, could help her get into a house. The 35-year-old, who is renting a townhouse, says lowering interest by as little as half a point would make a big difference. ‘That half a point is money I can save.’ Still, she said that although buying a house is ‘definitely a hot thing to do, I feel kind of nervous about the market.’”

“Erik Lutz, president of Great Southwest Mortgage, said that six years ago, few of his company’s customers took interest-only mortgages because they would have had to buy points or pay down the interest rate. That isn’t the case anymore. About 70 percent of the mortgages his company did then were fixed rate. That figure has dropped to about 30 percent today. ‘People spend 45 to 50 percent of their earnings on housing. This is very dangerous, because it doesn’t provide a financial cushion. People are counting on housing appreciation to be their savings,’ Lutz said. “The homes need to appreciate, otherwise there is no savings.’”

“Not only are homeowners counting on appreciation, Lutz said in many cases people are taking the money they would have been forced to save and using it to buy a bigger house.”

AR April 2005: “‘I think it’s a lot of investors putting their houses on the market at the same time,’ said Brett Barry. ‘There are quite a few vacant, on lockbox,’ said Doreen Drew, an Anthem specialist. ‘There are quite a few with no landscaping, no window coverings, no ceiling fans, on the rental and for-sale markets. That tells me they are investor homes.’”

“Anyone with even a mild interest in Phoenix’s housing market is on alert for the first sign of investor selling.”

KVVU TV, February 2005: “A story of some people who found themselves on the wrong side of a home price bubble. ‘They claim Pulte burned them by inflating it’s home prices and steering them to in house lenders who were all too happy to underwrite their dreams’…’We came with the hopes of buying two houses. We left the first day owning four. Within the next week, owning 6 — all the way up to 19.’”

The Sierra Sun, April 2005: “In a region where million-dollar homes are springing up alongside world-class golf courses, Esteban and Leticia Lopez and their three boys live in a $6,000 pull-behind trailer the size of two Chevy Suburbans. At the back of the trailer, Esteban explains his family’s housing dilemma…He voices the conclusion he has come to in the 12 years since he moved to Truckee from an agricultural town in Oaxaca, Mexico. ‘This area,’ he says, ‘is for rich people.’”

“Many of these residents are not newcomers. Some have lived in town for over a decade. Ruth Hall, director of Sierra Nevada Children’s Services for eastern Nevada County, says Truckee is in danger of losing its workers. And if Truckee loses its workers, the town will lose its soul. ‘Because of the housing situation in Truckee, families are dispersing,’ says Hall. ‘Families are being forced out of a place that they have lived for a long time. It seems like we are making some families make unsupportable choices.’”

The bad:

Arizona Republic, May 2005: “Titled ‘A light at the end of real estate tunnel’…Jay Butler, director of the Arizona RE Center said many converted condos in the Valley are now being bought by investors who then want to turn around and sell them for a profit. ‘Every major investor is looking at Phoenix’s apartment market now, trying to find a condo-conversion project,’ said Brad Goff.”

“Angela Prestinario moved into her north Scottsdale conversion two weeks ago. She bought the three-bedroom condo last year for $210,000; now they’re selling for $270,000. She wants to buy another conversion as an investment. Prestinario, 25, who works in her family’s laser-tag business in Mesa, said she was tempted to sell but didn’t because it took her months to get the place. She was fifth on a list of people, including investors, who wanted to buy that unit but the other names fell away, and it fell to her.”

“Now, she wants to buy another conversion as an investment.”

“‘You are building equity if you get in at the beginning,’ she said. ‘It’s the same sort of thing with a new build on a house.’”

“Emily Haradon wasn’t sure she could afford north Scottsdale when she started looking for a place there last year. A big house was out of the question in a part of metro Phoenix where home prices easily run higher than $500,000. But Haradon, 27, an administrative assistant for Paradise Bakery & Grill, found a solution: an apartment building being converted to condominiums. ‘I was in shock,’ she said. ‘I loved it. It was in my price range. I made an offer the day I saw it.’”

“Haradon said a condo like hers in her complex is on the market for $164,000, a more than 38 percent markup since she bought. For many people like Haradon, buying an apartment converted to a condo is their best chance to become a homeowner or afford a home in higher-priced areas such as Scottsdale. Condo conversions are helping buyers move into neighborhoods where they couldn’t afford a big house.”

“Rising Valley home prices have shut the door on many wannabe first-time home buyers and forced others to purchase houses far from where they work. Converting apartments to inexpensive condos has helped ease the shortage of affordable housing in other large cities, including Los Angeles, New York, Chicago and San Diego.”

“Tyler Anderson, a broker who specializes in multifamily properties at CB Richard Ellis, said there also are conversion deals cooking in Mesa, Tempe and Ahwatukee Foothills. ‘We are just getting started on this,’ he said. ‘I think it’s going to continue.’”

“Just a couple of weeks ago, Montecito Investment Co. of Jacksonville Beach, Fla., paid $97 million for 679 apartments in two Phoenix complexes. Those buildings will be the company’s third condo conversions in the Valley. The Phoenix area hits Montecito’s targets for job growth, lots of second homes, and pre-retirement buying. Larry Bassani, the company’s marketing director, said he doesn’t think conversion is a housing fad.”

“‘We think that’s a price-point lifestyle that will be very attractive for years to come, no matter what the overall market is doing,’ he said.”

May 2005: “Downtown living is suddenly very hot, with more than 1,700 residential units just opening, planned or starting construction soon. And the biggest fuel to the fire is the Arizona State University Downtown Phoenix Campus.” Consider that units at 44 Monroe start at about $300,000 for a 780-square-foot space. The new Portland Place Condominiums also start at the low $300s and run up to more than $1 million.”

“About 90 people signed conditional sales contracts in the past two weeks for units that range in price from $199,000 to $965,000. Eddie Chang is among them. The 25-year-old apartment broker snapped up a two-bedroom, 2 1/2-bath unit on the eighth floor. ‘To me, it was a no-brainer,’ said Chang, a self-described Diamondbacks fanatic. ‘Phoenix is true urban living.’”

“The city’s downtown plan calls for as many as 10,000 units in the next decade.”

Tri-Valley Central, April 2005: “‘It’s public confidence in the economy, and the feeling that prices are going to escalate, so they better buy now,’ said Judy Lowe, Tucson Association of Realtors president. ‘Also, it’s believing that real estate is the best investment.’”

“Richard Kenney, an agent, said people are losing confidence in the stock market and looking to real estate as the better place to put their money. ‘People like the idea of having something they can see and touch and rely on themselves, rather than the paper money and the stock market.’”

“‘Our buyer demand far outstrips the number of available houses out there. It’s kind of scary,’ said (agent) Michael Smith.”

The Star Telegram, April 2005: “Home building, long a fragmented business with scores of small players, continues to consolidate around its large publicly traded companies. D.R. Horton, Pulte, Lennar, Toll Brothers, Centex and about half a dozen others have distinct advantages, which become more pronounced in a tough market. They have deep pockets to buy land and wait out the long permit process in many cities, and they enjoy economies of scale on everything from kitchen appliances to raw land.”

“Because it has the most lots and inventory across the country, D.R. Horton is more vulnerable to a housing glut. As long as a downturn doesn’t happen everywhere at once, it can remain the aggressor.”

The Albuquerque Tribune, April 2005: “In Los Angeles, the rate of return is about 4.5 percent. In Albuquerque the rate is from 5.5 percent to 7 or 8 depending on the property. ‘We’re meeting with at least one new West Coast person a week looking to get into this market,’ Romero said. ‘They’re looking for tax-deferred 1031 exchanges. Investors are bailing out of California in fear the bubble there will burst. They’re moving their equities out.’”

The Vail Daily News, April 2005: “The Vail Board of Realtors’ multi-listing service that tracks available properties showed 572 residences for sale on Monday. Combine the tight housing supply with the fact that there are 650 real estate brokers in the county, more brokers than property, at the moment, and it makes for a highly competitive real estate sales environment. ‘It’s a bit of a dogfight for listings right now.’”

“Don’t look for the stream of free-spending resort-real estate buyers to slow to a trickle any time soon. The cash-rich Baby Boom generation may continue to flood the market with buyers for a decade or longer. Minturn is preparing for a luxury 1,400-unit community. More residential and commercial development is planned near Eagle and Gypsum. Some of those proposed properties have been sold even before a single shovel-full of dirt has been moved.”

From KVBC, May 2005: “First it was the housing market, now it’s the condo market. It’s almost a given in Las Vegas, buy low and sell high. But Jim Snyder has a story that one attorney says could badly hurt the condo market in Las Vegas. ‘Imagine my disgust when I get a similar package in the mail that says, it’s not a half a million dollars any more, it is eight hundred and seventy-four thousand,’ (he) said.”

“They all attended a Vegas Grand sales event, put down anywhere from five thousand to 25 thousand dollars and signed letters of intent to buy a unit. That all screeched to a halt when they got a notice in the mail telling them they had two options: pay a revised price almost double the amount they agreed to, or get their deposit back with five percent interest. ‘Personally, my feeling is, they have dollar signs in their eyes and they know that if they can get rid of me they’re going to make a whole lot more money off my unit.’”

Market observers and reporters, you decide:

Danielle DiMartino, May 2005: “Richard Fisher, president of the Dallas Federal Reserve, noted that many areas of Texas have seen resurging economic growth. Dallas was not one of them. ‘The weakest spot is North Texas,’ Mr. Fisher said, ‘largely because of the hit that telecom, technology and aviation took.’ ‘And yet ‘builders just keep building,’ said David Houston. ‘The risk is not so much the prices of the homes themselves, it’s the loans being made on the homes. The danger I see here is that people are buying so much more home than they can afford.’”

“Jim Pearson of Pearson Appraisal Co., ‘This is where you’re seeing a lot of the problems, where irresponsible or downright fraudulent lenders are trying to find unethical appraisers to work with them. What will happen when those loans are stress-tested, if the local economy doesn’t improve, if the national economy falters, if interest rates rise?’”

DM, May 2005: “Over half of the new mortgages originated in the second half of 2004 were ARMs with lock-ups of less than three years. You’ll have a LOT of inventory flooding the market in a matter of years. I wouldn’t want to be one of the people coming in behind these sellers as those with 5 and 7 year locks rush for the exits all at once.”

“So-called ‘investors’ are buying up properties in McKinney and doing cash-outs simultaneously with the original closings, all based on fraudulent appraisals, yes, this kind of stuff even goes on in non-bubbly Dallas, the damage all of these criminals are inflicting on communities is abhorrent…the same fraud that’s going on on a national level is taking place here..Local foreclosures are three-quarters of the way to their 1989 record. Inventories have been north of 6 months for a long time, we are definitely in a buyer’s market and the credit standards are even worse today than what they were in the years leading up to the S&L crisis.”

“When the wheel stops spinning, we’re going to be sitting on a massive mountain of debt..debt loads could easily bring deflation on in a slowing environment and the Fed knows it, that’s why they would tell you, strictly off the record, that they HAVE to keep raising rates so that they have the needed ammo when the time comes to fight deflation.”

May 2005, “Texans aren’t likely to get trapped in a home price bubble. That upbeat assessment comes from a company that ranked Austin and Dallas as the No. 1 and 2 ‘high-risk’ cities for home price declines two years ago.” ‘Your home price appreciation has been pretty weak’ compared with the rest of the country, said economist Marco Van Akkeren of PMI Mortgage Insurance Co. That’s why Dallas is now ‘toward the bottom of our list’ in risk.”

“Most North Texas homebuyers have ignored the bugaboo talk about bubbles, said Sheila Rice of Virginia Cook Realtors. ‘They didn’t see any reason why it should be true. The price per square foot even in our most high-priced areas does not approach what it is on the coasts.’”

April 2005: “Economist Tucker Hart Adams argues that since 1999, builders have constructed more than 20,000 too many homes in the metro area. Builders pulled 3,181 permits for homes, condos and apartments in the Denver area in the first two months of the year, about 35 percent more than through February of 2004. ‘It’s the worst news I’ve heard all day,’ economist Tucker Hart Adams said. ‘Who is living in all of these homes?’”

One builder. ‘The homes are being absorbed into the market,’ he said. “Builders are building to meet demand. That has been my mantra and it continues to be my mantra.’”

May 2005: “Last year, 28 of every 1,000 Utah households filed for bankruptcy, twice the national average and nearly triple Utah’s rate a decade earlier. In April, Thomas Monson, the (Mormon) church’s second-ranking leader, said he was ‘appalled’ at advertising for home-equity loans that is ‘designed to tempt us to borrow more in order to have more.’ He repeated the words a Mormon elder spoke during the Depression: ‘Interest never sleeps nor sickens nor dies. Once in debt, interest is your companion every minute of the day and night.”

April 2005, “The average number of days a southeast Valley home was on the market jumped from six days in January to 35 in February, according to the Arizona Regional Multiple Listing Service. ‘You get a little carried away by the price of the home, and the overpriced stuff stays on the market. There are indications (that is happening), but nothing in evidence yet,’ said Jay Butler, director of the Arizona Real Estate Center at Arizona State University.”

“He said people seem to be getting more nervous and wondering if or when the market will crash. ‘Things are so good in the minds of a lot of people and they all know that sooner or later it is going to end, and they don’t know when it’s going to end..They don’t want to be hung up to dry.’”

April 2005: “Median home sale prices in Phoenix went from $128,500 in the first quarter of 2004 to $159,400 in 2005. Even if the market’s growth does slow, Realtor Carol Boles doesn’t think the prices will drop. ‘I just don’t see that happening,’ said Boles, who owns Firebird Realty in north Phoenix. ‘I’m still investing in real estate at today’s prices. If I had any indication (that prices would drop), I wouldn’t.’”

“Phoenix’s limited housing inventory and high selling prices have created an undesirable situation for many buyers, Boles said. ‘A lot of first-time buyers are getting squeezed out of the market,” she said. ‘You have to offer over the list price.’”

“‘”Historically, the first quarter is not one of the stronger quarters,’ said Jay Butler, director of the Arizona Real Estate Center. ‘So, by having a strong first quarter, that shows evidence the market is continuing to move along in growth. If you own a home and want to sell it, you have to turn around and buy a home to replace it,’ Butler said. ‘It could be difficult to (find a replacement home), so some home buyers stay either out of desire or are forced to stay with the home they have because they can’t replace it.’”

May 2005: “‘The market here is just absolutely nuts,’ says Pamela Harness, realtor in Chandler, Ariz. ‘I get investors calling; they want to buy a home. I tell them they’re a day late and a dollar short at this point.’”

May 2005: “No Arizona cities meet the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp.’s list of boom markets, those showing 30 percent total price gains, inflation-adjusted, over the past three years. Stephen Happel, an economics professor at Arizona State University, thinks such conditions persist in other states and he sees local warning signs too. ‘I can’t see how housing prices can keep going up,’ Happel said.”

April 2005: “Dawn McLaren an economist at Arizona State University: ‘The concern that I have is that most of our job growth is in terms of construction. In Las Vegas, for instance we’re seeing houses prices 40 percent above what they were last year, an incredible boom going on in prices and in a number of houses being built. And we’re going to have to think about retraining some of these people when that huge boom comes to an end.”

“I do feel that we do have a little bit of a bubble here, certainly in some areas like Las Vegas it will be a little bit worse. There are things that are threatening to it. First of all, over 20 percent of our market here in the Phoenix area is in investment. Investors have come in, they’ve come in from California, and they have been (driving) our market.”

“It can’t go on forever and there are signs that it is beginning to fizzle.”

April 2005: “Even a moderate rise in interest rates could cause a housing price correction that would affect home owners increasingly reliant on home appreciation as a source of wealth, local real estate expert Rick Pederson said Tuesday. Pederson, president of Foundation Properties Inc., said homes have become ‘our savings of choice.’ He’s concerned about consumers relying too much home on appreciation — or their belief about future appreciation — as they make decisions about spending and debt.”

“‘I believe far too much money is going into residential real estate,’ he said. ‘A good deal of consumer spending is going into what I think my house is worth.’”

“Pederson said adjustable rate mortgages (ARMs) have become more common in recent years, but what concerns him more arethe number of borrowers who have taken out larger home mortgages, called ‘jumbo loans,’ on an interest-only basis. ‘We are relying so much on home appreciation,’ he said.”

“Pederson has concerns about commercial real estate as well. In metro Denver, the office vacancy rate has hovered around 20 percent for the past three years, while commercial sales prices continue to rise. Pederson suggested real estate is overvalued, saying that high vacancy rates and simultaneous rising prices doesn’t make sense.”

March 2005: “WHITE HILLS, Ariz. This could very well be America’s next great bedroom community. A city or something like it could blossom in this no-man’s-swath of northwestern Arizona as the nation’s hottest housing market — Las Vegas — begins to spill over its traditional borders. Already, two developers are talking up plans to build 55,000 homes in this sand-scoured landscape that now boasts less than six people per square mile. Several other builders are quietly buying up land. ‘It can’t grow that big,’ scoffed Pat McGinnis, a retiree from Missouri who operates a roadside gift shop in neighboring Dolan Springs.”

“It’s a typical reaction in the rapidly changing West — and it’s almost always wrong, said Rob Melnick, director of the Morrison Institute for Public Policy at Arizona State University. With housing prices soaring in most of the region’s metropolitan areas, the most desolate places are now the hottest spots for development. ‘Thirty years ago, if you had said there will be this huge growth out here, people would have laughed their heads off,’ said Melnick, an expert in urban growth. ‘We’re poking into all kinds of areas that you wouldn’t have believed.’”

“‘You have to look at the available land supplies, what is available for private use,’ said Frederick E. Chin, chief operating officer for Las Vegas-based Rhodes Homes. By the time the bypass is completed, Rhodes plans to be well on its way to building more than 20,000 dwellings on the 2,000 acres it now owns here, along with an ‘urban center’ of retail development and other services. If the homes were already in place today, Chin said, they would probably be priced in the mid $100,000s, compared with the high $300,000s commanded by similar properties in the Las Vegas Valley. ‘We look at this [area] as a viable alternative for a lot of the employment that is going to happen’ in Las Vegas, he said.”

“Pat Kwast…a cook at Rosie’s Den on U.S. 93 (is) not fond of the changes but says she’ll weather them, maybe get to make some jokes at the ‘city slickers’ she sees plopping down $80,000 for a little house. ‘Sweetheart, it’s progress,’ she said with a sigh, taking a break at the counter. ‘Things change — that’s the energy of everything. Everybody knows you can’t stop progress.’”




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78 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-11-21 07:47:18

FYI, I’ll have separate posts for southern and northern California, which is why they aren’t included here.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-21 12:04:49

I was guessing there might be a bit too much material on SoCal to lump it under the “Southwest” heading…

 
Comment by Lenderoflastresort
2009-11-22 02:39:09

Ben, your posts from 2005 are a treasure chest. So well done. Thank you.

 
 
Comment by hubrispie
2009-11-21 08:23:54

Now, Denver County, Colorado still has a lot of foreclosure sales but they also have around 68 pages of foreclosure sale continuances on the Denver Public Trustee website. Each of these pages lists about 15 houses where the foreclosures have been delayed for another day, week, month, year. That continues week after week. Plenty of hidden inventory… Imagine how many homes should be in foreclosure but the banks have not yet filed on them….

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-11-21 08:39:03

Thanks for that info, and the history of what was reported and when can tell us something. One of the reasons the CO newspapers were covering this so much was their market turned south before almost all others. On issue after issue, one could see trends play out in this state and then see the exact same thing in other areas. One of the most memorable was how the median price continued to go up, even as foreclosures skyrocketed and the market was obviously under a lot of stress.

So the fact that defaults continue to mount in Denver suggests that we may see foreclosures rise for many more years in AZ, NV, CA, etc.

Comment by In Colorado
2009-11-21 09:29:18

No doubt. What is hilarious out here is that thelocal PTBs love to brag that our unemployment rate is low, yet I have seen articles that clearly attribute the low rate to discouraged job seekers who have given up trying to find work.

http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20091121/BUSINESS/911210332/Job+searchers+face+uphill+battle

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-21 11:22:01

Wow Ben what a time machine you have here. One day your ship will come in for being way ahead of the curve.

Someday when you will come to the Beeg Apples and NYCboy WT FPSS and I will buy you so many microbews you wont know who’s couch you will wind up on in the morning.

Comment by DD
2009-11-22 17:10:18

so many microbews you wont know who’s couch you will wind up on in the morning.

Alert alert. danger ‘will robinson’ danger… waving arms waving arms. Ben, be careful. Fun ahead in NYCdj land.

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Comment by Rancher
2009-11-22 06:38:10

Thanks Ben, this site is a gold mine of information.

 
 
 
Comment by DennisN
2009-11-21 10:42:29

Ben,

Why don’t you group them as the good, the bad, and the ugly? ;)

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-11-21 11:58:24

Singling people out doesn’t sit right with me, so I’ll let you guys decide about individuals. Also, what I wanted to do when I first proposed this had to be scaled back, mainly because so little of the original material is still on the web.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-21 12:02:09

“Also, what I wanted to do when I first proposed this had to be scaled back, mainly because so little of the original material is still on the web.”

That is somewhat disturbing to ponder. In the e-media age, it may become much easier for those who made completely ludicrous statements (e.g. variants on “real estate always goes up”) to cover their tracks through simply cleaning the web of the evidence. I hope someone besides Ben is keeping a good archive, written, off-line electronic, or others, so later generations can have an accurate record of who today’s most foolish ‘experts’ were.

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-11-21 12:07:50

Everything on the web is archived, I believe. But finding it is another thing. BTW, I am working on re-opening the housingbubble2, that would have been from June 2005 to February 2006. But I’m up against technical problems that I won’t go into. We’ll see.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-21 15:42:02

“…that would have been from June 2005 to February 2006.”

I believe that was a period when you could find what I considered at the time to be some very gloomy forecasts from HBB posters. It would be interesting to look at them from the standpoint of comparing what was predicted to what actually happened. My guess is the median HBB forecast turned out to be highly accurate relative to what ensued.

 
Comment by Bad Chile
2009-11-21 16:52:30

My favorite:

“I think the worst is behind us. You should know that, right now, prices are at their lowest point, in my belief.”
- Barbara Corcoran, Real Estate ‘Expert’, on the Today Show [2007]

“Obviously, I was dead wrong. Do I regret it? No. Fortunately not everyone is as diligent as you to go and look it up.” - Barbara Corcoran, Real Estate ‘Expert’, on the Today Show [2009]

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-11-22 03:13:07

LOL! :)

 
Comment by az_lender
2009-11-22 04:57:40

“Fortunately” for you, Barbara. Else nobody would keep putting you on TV.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-11-21 11:04:56

I read every paragraph here…It is just amazing just how delusional things had gotten…

Comment by bink
2009-11-21 11:07:27

And it’s amazing how deluded some people still are.

Comment by bink
2009-11-21 11:11:08

I should probably explain myself. One of my favorite personal anecdotes from 2005 was when I was in Atlanta on a business trip and my waiter was describing how he moved to Georgia from Phoenix because “Atlanta was the next big thing for Real Estate.” He was purchasing properties using his waiter salary in a chain restaurant.

So I spent the week back in Atlanta for work again this week, and guess what? There are still people in restaurants talking about “snapping up” foreclosures and how great it was that they could get mortgages with almost nothing down. One fellow was even describing how he was going to sell his primary residence to pull out the equity and pick up three investment properties with the proceeds.

Comment by combotechie
2009-11-21 12:04:14

“One fellow was even describing how he was going to sell his primary residence to pull out the equity and pick up three investment properties with the proceeds.”

I’m for encouraging this sort of thinking as the economy desperately needs his money.

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Comment by Lenderoflastresort
2009-11-22 02:56:42

I like the way you think. Right on, brother.

 
Comment by az_lender
2009-11-22 04:58:59

Only problem is, he has to find an actual buyer for that primary rez.

 
 
Comment by CA renter
2009-11-22 03:15:35

bink,

The crazies are all around us here in So Cal, too. Oddly enough, there are a lot of “all cash” investors out there “snapping up” foreclosures and short sales.

Inventory is very, very low — reminiscent of the 2003/2004 period, which was the peak of the mania around here.

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Comment by scdave
2009-11-22 09:24:11

Oddly enough, there are a lot of “all cash” investors out there “snapping up” foreclosures and short sales ??

A gentleman that I know has just purchased his fourth foreclosure in Stockton California..
He has a construction background and is fairly well to do…He is buying these houses for roughly $100. per square foot…Quite honestly he is getting a pretty darn good rate of return cash on cash..

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-22 13:13:01

‘The crazies are all around us here in So Cal, too. Oddly enough, there are a lot of “all cash” investors out there “snapping up” foreclosures and short sales.’

I don’t consider them to be crazy. They are simply misled by the Fed’s hubristic signal that a bottom in residential real estate has been successfully engineered, and that real estate will bubble up towards the moon once again from here on out. I am not sure whether the Fed actually intended to send this signal, but some have clearly interpreted it thusly.

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-11-23 01:44:11

I am not sure whether the Fed actually intended to send this signal, but some have clearly interpreted it thusly.
————

Surely, you are being sarcastic in the first part of that post, right?

We both know all too well that’s exactly the message the Fed wanted to send out. :(

 
 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-11-21 11:36:31

bink,

do you post on dk (I’m using initials)?

Comment by bink
2009-11-22 00:14:39

I’m not sure I get the reference.

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Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-11-22 17:04:11

Sorry about that. Thought you would get the reference. Do you post anywhere else using the name bink?

I see a bink that posts on daily kos.

 
 
Comment by DD
2009-11-22 17:25:45

I have 1,2x. I will look for that ‘bink’.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-21 11:59:15

“Texans aren’t likely to get trapped in a home price bubble. That upbeat assessment comes from a company that ranked Austin and Dallas as the No. 1 and 2 ‘high-risk’ cities for home price declines two years ago.” ‘Your home price appreciation has been pretty weak’ compared with the rest of the country, said economist Marco Van Akkeren of PMI Mortgage Insurance Co. That’s why Dallas is now ‘toward the bottom of our list’ in risk.”

I keep wondering whatever became of Marco. He published a very dire PMI home price decline forecast, predicting high probabilities of home price declines in bubble markets across the USA, then was heard no more in the MSM. I wonder if the PMI people sacked him for not being sufficiently ‘upbeat’? It is hard for a bear to earn an honest living in real estate.

Regarding whether Dallas and Austin got caught in a bubble, who’d ‘ave thunk the ginormous central bank blown credit bubble could have infected housing markets all over the USA, not to mention almost every other corner of the globe with some semblance of economic development and a banking system?

Comment by DennisN
2009-11-21 13:43:54

I bailed out of San Jose in May 2006. Little did I comprehend that things were going to heck in a handbasket everywhere else in the country and around the world.

At least I lost a smaller percentage of a smaller amount of money buying here in Boise.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-21 21:00:34

DennisN,

For some reason I thought you were a San Diegan. Perhaps you said you went to school here?

I should be in Boise at some point next year on business travel. I will plan to meet you for a beer during my visit if you are up for it.

PB

Comment by DennisN
2009-11-22 10:24:52

I got my MA at UCSD back in 1977 but moved right back to San Jose to work as a EE. My family had been there pre-1900 so it was “home” to me.

No shortage of beer in Boise. Even DinOR couldn’t drain the kegs at Tablerock. ;)

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Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-22 21:20:46

‘My family had been there pre-1900 so it was “home” to me.’

Same for my wife’s side of the family. They were among the original Californians.

 
 
 
Comment by CA renter
2009-11-22 03:19:42

Comment by DennisN
2009-11-21 13:43:54
I bailed out of San Jose in May 2006. Little did I comprehend that things were going to heck in a handbasket everywhere else in the country and around the world.

—————–

And that’s what makes this particular blog so exceptional. Many of us were told various stories about why prices were going up (the “rich __________” were coming), and it might have been easy to believe on a local level. When we finally got Ben’s blog, we could see that the real estate bubble was not local at all — it was global.

Guess what? It still is. Countries all around the world are experiencing this new round of speculative housing fever. We are nowhere near a bottom in housing, IMHO.

Comment by az_lender
2009-11-22 05:02:46

Yes. I had to be posting here or at least lurking here for a while, in the spring of 2006, before realizing that my OWN house on Deer Isle in Maine would be vulnerable to the decline I had known would come to California. Thanks to HBB for my quick sale in summer 06.

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Comment by Steve W
2009-11-21 20:30:38

“I keep wondering whatever became of Marco.”

Senior Vice-President, Portfolio Management at PIMCO

(I don’t think we need to worry about him hurting for money) ;)

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-21 21:02:56

Thanks for the lead. That sounds like a good place for him. A bear will tend to get more respect in a bond dealership, as bad news for the economy is often the best possible news for bond investments.

 
 
 
Comment by DennisN
2009-11-21 13:47:09

They claim Pulte burned them. . . ‘We came with the hopes of buying two houses. We left the first day owning four. Within the next week, owning 6 — all the way up to 19.’

I think they burned themselves.

Good lord - being the titular owners of 19 homes.

Comment by JackRussell
2009-11-22 11:46:13

Hey honey, I found these condos in the dollar bin at the store, and I picked up a bunch..

 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-11-21 16:34:53

I bet if you went to any Country and you asked the actual people what they wanted ,they would say they want fair paying jobs , they want to be independent ,they would say they are sick of corrupt governments or
power groups that rob them blind and they would say they just want the opportunity to improve their lives . The people would also probably say that
they hate discrimination ,or being stuck in a class system in which your life is determined by your birth station ,rather than your efforts in life .

But what is my point . My point is that IMHO I think people basically want the same things ,but Governments and power brokers /special interest seek to set up a
unfair playing field . The USA came close to having a system that benefited
more of a majority because of the long history of Americans fighting for rights and elimination of unfair practices . I think the corrupt government and power brokers need to be put back in their box ,instead of the American people being put in a box by the Power Brokers .

Comment by Lenderoflastresort
2009-11-22 03:09:31

So well said. Keep posting. I skip over others just to read yours. Thank you.

Comment by CA renter
2009-11-22 03:20:52

Yep. You always have great posts, Wiz.

 
 
Comment by DD
2009-11-22 17:42:50

PBS watching docu of 1933 and development of the CCC, and the interviews of the men who participated. Those men today,
” We were healed. We were healed of body, land and country”.
“we learned how to work hard, work well, had a job, and work with people of other colors, religions, and we learned how to work with each other. All of whom were poor. Some poor from the beginning, some were highly educated, used to be rich.”
” we got recreation, food, and jobs”

Really good illustration of our history and what working together does for our country. You don’t see this and come away from it thinking that the PTB-power brokers who want to put us into boxes, is the correct way to have a powerful US.
$30.00 month, $25. mo got sent home of that 30.
So, nationwide a giant CCC like camp jobs formation would build a stronger nation, repair our infrastructure, our forests, national parks -you name it, clean up the nations environmental disasters and bring us all together by bringing money into smaller towns and so forth.

 
 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-21 17:07:22

Thanks for the flashback on Scottsdale Condo conversions! It is nice to be able to get a great belly laugh out of it!

“Angela Prestinario moved into her north Scottsdale conversion two weeks ago. She bought the three-bedroom condo last year for $210,000; now they’re selling for $270,000. ”

Hee Hee! I left my central Scottsdale apartment in 2004 after being burglarized. They converted the whole complex a year later. Now I see quite a few for sale for $120,000. No private garages, miniature washer and miniature dryer. Other than that, cosmetic decorative upgrades. IIRC,

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-21 17:09:11

oops - somehow I hit the wrong key…

IIRC, the two bedroom two bath units were for sale in the $200s.

I would not touch those for $10k. If I own real estate it’s gotta have a garage.

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-21 17:13:10

I just looked up on zillow. In 2005 the 2 bedroom 2 bath units were “zillowed” at somewhere between $250,000 and $280,000. I just saw one such unit for sale for $127,000. It has 955 square feet. Great location but…

Comment by oxide
2009-11-21 17:45:49

…but the HOA will kill you?

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-21 17:49:52

That too!

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Comment by oxide
2009-11-21 17:53:28

“The risk is not so much the prices of the homes themselves, it’s the loans being made on the homes.

Survey SEZ…..”XXX”

I’d much rather get a neg-am on a $95K house than a low-rate 30-year fixed on a $400K house. You could almost afford the $95K house on unemployment.

Comment by az_lender
2009-11-22 13:22:13

Sure, you are right, from the point of view of the individual buyer. However, David Houston’s comments aren’t completely meritless: the loans were the father of the absurd prices, and the observation that “builders just go on building” goes close to the heart of the problem.

 
 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-11-21 18:17:47

The longer this fiasco goes on, the more it resembles the “Titanic” metaphor referenced so many times……….

-The HBBers and others try to warn everyone that the ship is going too fast and there are icebergs around.

-The guys steering the ship recognize the danger too late, and make the situation worse by making course corrections when it is too late.
(It has been argued that the Titanic would have stayed afloat if they had center-punched the iceberg, instead of turning to avoid it………fewer watertight compartments would have been opened/ruptured).

-Most of the passengers are reluctant to leave the ship, because they don’t realize what is happening, or choose to believe what they are being told by the “experts”…….in the meantime, the First Class passengers have taking to the lifeboats.

-We are now at the stage where the ship has split in half, and the forepart has sunk, and thousands of people are flailing around in the freezing North Atlantic with only life preservers, when they need lifeboats or exposure suits.
(in this instance, the “flailing around” being “Cash for Clunkers/Crapshacks”, and homebuilders/developers/banks/Wall Street specuvestors falling back into their old habits, because they are in denial/don’t know how/don’t want to change their behavior)

-The stern of the ship (Commercial Real Estate) is now sinking rapidly, and the guys supposedly running the ship (government, the Fed, the Financial industry) have run out of lifeboats…….

Now all we need is James Cameron.

Comment by flat
2009-11-21 19:24:12

remember ship condo hotels ?

Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-11-21 19:42:13

I was just waiting for the first hurricane to show up……..would have loved to have seen the home video from that experience.

 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-22 11:30:46

All I remember is the terrorism incident on that cruise ship many years ago when the terrorists killed that wheelchair-bound passenger.

From that point on I decided it’s extremely stupid to go on a cruise boat. I’m almost of the opinion that no government should even attempt to rescue cruise boats from terrorists. If people are stupid enough to be sitting ducks, Darwinism will help to get rid of the stupid ones.

Comment by Ol'Bubba
2009-11-22 13:13:44

According to my google search, in 1985, the Palestine Liberation Front hijacked an Italian cruise ship named “The Achille Lauro” in the Mediterranean Sea. In the course of the hijacking, Leon Klinghoffer, an American confined to a wheelchair, was murdered and his body was thrown into the sea.

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Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-22 15:07:06

Yeah. Wow I did not realize it was back in 1985. I couldn’t afford a cruise in those days. I was 26 and I thought cruises were for “old people.” Now at 50 I guess I am one of the “old people.”

 
 
Comment by oxide
2009-11-22 15:32:47

I’d be too worried about seasickness and norovirus to worry about terrorists and pirates.

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Comment by pismoclam
2009-11-22 15:49:20

If you’re 50+ you should be worried about Pelosi,Reid, and Obamacare.

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-22 18:13:06

What about those cruisers who happen to go overboard?
That would also be a concern.
norovirus, terrorists, flu, seasickness, irritating psgrs, jumpers.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-21 21:09:30

“Last year, 28 of every 1,000 Utah households filed for bankruptcy, twice the national average and nearly triple Utah’s rate a decade earlier. In April, Thomas Monson, the (Mormon) church’s second-ranking leader, said he was ‘appalled’ at advertising for home-equity loans that is ‘designed to tempt us to borrow more in order to have more.’ He repeated the words a Mormon elder spoke during the Depression: ‘Interest never sleeps nor sickens nor dies. Once in debt, interest is your companion every minute of the day and night.”

I have to hand it to the Mormon leaders for doing a great job of warning their members about the risks of drowning one’s household in debt. Quite amazingly, though many Mormons I know go to great lengths to tow the line regarding matters of personal morality, many of them apparently ignored their leaders’ sage financial advice, choosing instead to join the real estate investing craze and use debt to buy second or more investment homes in LV or AZ which now weigh down their household financial balance sheets like the albatross hanging from the Ancient Mariner’s neck.

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-22 11:38:48

I wonder how many of that 28% have more than two children per household?

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-22 13:09:11

That is not the main problem. As a subsociety, Mormons tend to be well educated and pursue occupations like medicine, law and financial services which are expected to cover the costs of raising large families.

The main problem is that some of them (including certain of my wife’s blood relatives) spend like drunken sailors, in opposition to Prophetic advice.

 
Comment by az_lender
2009-11-22 13:11:51

You mean 2.8%.

Comment by DennisN
2009-11-22 13:58:42

Hey, he’s in software. What do you expect? ;)

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Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-22 16:21:52

Thanks Dennis! My brain registered 28 out of 100 when I read that. I thought it was a huge number. Then from your retort I looked up again. Ok it’s 1000. Momentary dyslexia. So shoot me will ya?

 
 
 
 
Comment by DD
2009-11-22 18:16:30

Have a mormon hs friend who had a mortgage lending biz in Phoenix.
I emailed and asked how biz was, what with 7 kids and all, and he said, thankfully his juice stands were holding them up.
It would be interesting to know if he lent just like all the other banks etc.? “and now for the rest of the story…”

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-21 22:55:13

“Richard Kenney, an agent, said people are losing confidence in the stock market and looking to real estate as the better place to put their money. ‘People like the idea of having something they can see and touch and rely on themselves, rather than the paper money and the stock market.’”

How did that idea work out for them?

Comment by Lenderoflastresort
2009-11-22 03:20:44

Good point. But then, there’s Aladinsane’s precious. BTW, what EVER happened to dearest Olympiagal and NHZ? Please let me know, dear one.

Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-11-22 11:43:27

I like Series I savings bonds and TIPS. The government will continue to print fiat money to pay interest on treasuries. Also, the government will stop entitlement spending before they stop paying interest on bonds. Otherwise China will simply toss neutron bombs over all America and be done with the credit bubble society.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-22 13:06:41

“Otherwise China will simply toss neutron bombs over all America and be done with the credit bubble society.”

I would hate to see the Symbiosis end in Mutually Assured Destruction.

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Comment by Fuzzy Bear
2009-11-23 10:43:22

“How did that idea work out for them?”

From the looks of the foreclosed properties here in Florida, their investments did not turn out too well! However, these investors are now trying to make up their lost retirement funds by investing in gold … buy now or be forever priced out! Gold will always go up in value, etc. etc. as these sayings are the same as the housing market.

The Tampa Bay realestate market is in poor shape and is getting worse as foreclosures keep climbing. Several realtors who had purchased many of the new properties have now lost them to foreclosure. There are lots of Mercedes, Lexus and BMW’s as well as new homes that foreclosed on the market down here as many realtors who bought up the new homes have now gone bellie up!

 
 
Comment by Happy Renter in North Vancouver
2009-11-22 13:21:15

Ben, if you want to document real estate mandate in real time, why don’t you take a look at north of the 49th parallel? All time high prices,bidding wars for sub-prime housing, 0% down, 35 year amortizations (with 5 year renewals), popularity of variable rate mortgages, ultra-low interest rates, government falling over itself to assume all of the risk of mortgages (CMHC), feasting real-estate agents… It’s all here… Canada, the new hotbed of real estate speculation.

Comment by oxide
2009-11-22 15:35:24

I thought Canada was famous for learning from their neighbor’s mistakes.

Comment by Happy Renter in North Vancouver
2009-11-23 00:51:36

I wish, but not so… There’s the “things are different here” attitude… Canadian banks get 60 billion of potentially suspect mortgages transferred from their books to the federal government’s and somehow Canadian Banks were so much “smarter” than American ones. The implicit guarantee Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac enjoyed has always been explicit for the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC). We do have some voices of sanity such as Garth Turner… A former minister who runs http://www.greaterfool.ca but delusion reigns North of the 49th…

 
 
 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-11-23 11:00:18

When we see the same 2005 media rhetoric starting again, revisting the MSM’s past deeds is timely.

 
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