November 24, 2009

Bits Bucket For November 24, 2009

Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum.




RSS feed | Trackback URI

471 Comments »

Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 04:30:08

1 in 4 Borrowers Under Water.
WSJ ~ NOVEMBER 24, 2009

The proportion of U.S. homeowners who owe more on their mortgages than the properties are worth has swelled to about 23%, threatening prospects for a sustained housing recovery.

Nearly 10.7 million households had negative equity in their homes in the third quarter, according to First American CoreLogic, a real-estate information company based in Santa Ana, Calif.

These so-called underwater mortgages pose a roadblock to a housing recovery because the properties are more likely to fall into bank foreclosure and get dumped into an already saturated market. Economists from J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. said Monday.

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 07:05:39

I went to an open house Sunday just for grins. It was a nice traditional house on one acre in a good neighborhood. An acquaintance happened to be there, from her I learned that the biggest monstrosity of a 55+ development in our area has just filed BK. Then the realtor piped up about another 55+ community whose condo owners can’t afford the property tax and are on the verge of foreclosure. I was wondering why there were so many For Sale signs at that particular complex.

I blame the township commissioners. Those pukes had tax revenue dollar signs in their eyes when they signed off on the over-building of adult communities in the GVSD. And who knows what kickbacks they got from the builders.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-11-24 08:09:38

Seems like every commissioner, alderman, councilman, mayor, etc. was thinking that way. And I cite it as part of the reason that why the equation of houseownership may have profoundly changed for many a locale.

Buyers who do not perform due diligence into the financial situation of the municipality in which they are buying are asking for a hurting. We know people obesess about kitchen finishes, paint chips, bathroom fixtures, etc. But how many know anything about their local tax base, board of education funding, TIF districts, etc?

They buy $500k houses and leave all the rest to fate? Madness!

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 08:38:30

To your point about buyers not performing due diligence -
I was stunned when realtor told me that the 55+ condo buyers had no idea what their taxes would be…and of course the seller’s agent wasn’t going to be the bearer of bad news.
As to the BK monstrosity -
That place already looks like a housing project, just typical midrise block construction. They ruined 87 acres of land for that eyesore, which for some odd reason doesn’t show up on Erickson’s website:
http://www.ericksonliving.com/ourcommunities/mgc/
It’s just a bunch of touchy feely “lifestyle” BS, with interior shots of staged apts.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-11-24 10:19:28

“They ruined 87 acres of land for that eyesore, which for some odd reason doesn’t show up on Erickson’s website…”

They should be thankful that the trees and farms can’t get revenge for what was done to them in the name of “progress” and “development.”

So many beautiful woods and field destroyed to be replaced with shoddily constructed, horribly oversized, grossly overpriced Mcshacks.

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-11-24 10:28:37

I had wondered on and off how progressive care developers like Erickson were doing. My aunt lived at one in the D.C. area for about the last five years of her life. The facility and staff were nice enough. We’d come visit her and she’d treat us to dinner at the dining facility, where the food quality and selection became noticeably poorer over the five years. Her last few months in their nursing facility was a study in the ever-greater loss of dignity as your days run out.

My cousin said the estate got back 90% of her original purchase price of the apartment, but only after it was resold.

 
 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-11-24 09:28:43

But how many know anything about their local tax base, board of education funding, TIF districts, etc?

I don’t know if the Midwest media round-up post has run yet (I haven’t seen it), but that’s precisely why I nominated Ben Joravsky of the Chicago Reader for his fine reporting.

He’s cast a critical eye on the behind-the-scenes municipal gamesmanship in our fair city at least since the very early aughts, when I started paying attention to his writing. As you note, those unglamorous and often convoluted factors can have a large impact on affordability, diversity, quality-of-life, and a host of other issues.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-24 10:57:28

Philly:

This was the biggest fallacy of the boom…yes they were making more land…

They ruined 87 acres of land for that eyesore,

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by bink
2009-11-24 09:11:00

Can’t a 55 and up community just vote to open to all ages? That would be an easy way to increase buyers.

Comment by DD
2009-11-24 16:41:00

Easy, but who wants all those rug rats and teens? For those of us who didn’t breed-choice or not, now that 55 is breathing down fast, I don’t want to watch out for strollers or crazy driving teens. Gosh, it is enough with retirees who are crappy drivers especially those who are snowbirds and think they are entitled to get the right of way at all costs.
Starting to look forward to getting my senior size soda pop and ordering off the early bird menu- haha, Just kidding.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-24 10:56:14

X:

I think you should add “luxury” adult communities. What would have happened if they built that many for $150K or less,

———————-
Those pukes had tax revenue dollar signs in their eyes when they signed off on the over-building of adult communities

 
 
Comment by In Montana
2009-11-24 07:06:16

does that include paid-off houses or just mortgaged ones?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 07:42:11

‘More than 40% of borrowers who took out a mortgage in 2006 — when home prices peaked — are under water. Prices have dropped so much in some parts of the U.S. that some borrowers who took out loans more than five years ago owe more than their home’s value.

Even recent bargain hunters have been hit: 11% of borrowers who took out mortgages in 2009 already owe more than their home’s value.

Andrew Lunsford put 20% down when he bought his home in Las Vegas for $530,000 in 2004. Now, he said, his home was worth less than $300,000.

“I’m to the point where I feel I will never get my head above water,” said Mr. Lunsford, a retired state trooper who works for an insurance company. He said his bank won’t modify his loan because he can afford his payments, and he’s unwilling to walk away, he said: “We’re too honest.”‘

Comment by arizonadude
2009-11-24 07:48:16

Does honesty really have anything to do with this?I think more people look at it as a financial decision.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 08:03:22

Stupidity seems to be a key factor in leading people to catch falling knives, and honesty is a key factor in getting people to hold on.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-11-24 07:53:48

“11% of borrowers who took out mortgages in 2009 already owe more than their home’s value.”

Zing!

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 08:18:38

“We’re too honest”

Firstly, state troopers are state employees, just like the guy that fixes storm drains or bean counter. They’re not super men and they can’t bend steel with their bare hands. They’re just people like you and me.

Yet he has only to whip out his check book to scratch out a check for $106,000 and easily support the mortgage on $424,000. Piece of cake.

The reason he’s “too honest” is that most insurance companies do an “annual employee certification” that requires very personal and sensitive disclosures. Likely walking away would be tantamount to a letter of resignation. Spare me officer.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-24 08:38:05

He’s already retired, so I don’t think it would affect his fitness report. This is probably one of those situations where he can just grin and bear it and let the executor of his estate deal with it eventually.

 
Comment by Reuven
2009-11-24 09:29:05

If the terms of the loan established the house as the only collateral and recourse, then there’s nothing dishonest about giving the house back to the bank.

Maybe he won’t do it because he has a second or third mortgage that isn’t non-recourse?

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 09:42:43

Spokaneman,

Not to get ahead of myself but if the guy was a regular patrol officer ( not a bean counter, no offense intended ) I’m guessing he is there to aid in the investigation of insurance fraud?

As such, he’ll have access to sensitive information. Insurance co’s have been known to fire people for cashing their paychecks at a bar, so having a “strategic default” won’t reflect well on his ‘character’. Yes, even in Vegas.

 
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-11-24 07:54:42

‘More than 40% of borrowers who took out a mortgage in 2006 — when home prices peaked — are under water.

I’m quite surprised actually it’s not closer to about 80%. 40% sounds way too low.

Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-24 08:47:02

It needs to be remembered that even though it gets huge press, the worst of the problems are confined to the sand states, and Michigan. There are lots of other places where prices are down, but assuming a reasonable down payment was made, or the equity from a previous home was used to buy up (or down), the typical home would not be underwater. Worth less than the purchase price, sure, but underwater, no.

I have a family member that is typical of this, they bought a home in Pierce County WA. for 600K in 2006. The house has declined in value around 25%. However, they roll the equity from their previous home into the new place and supplimented this with additional cash, so despite having “lost” $150k, they are still “above water”. The losers of course are the beneficiaries of their estate, but thats a ways down the road. Also, in real dollar terms, they made more on the previous home than they have lost on the new home (so far). I suspect that other than the very worst areas price deflation, and the situation for first time buyers, this is a fairly common scenerio.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 09:02:18

It needs to be remembered that even though it gets huge press, the worst of the problems are confined to the sand states, and Michigan.

“The sand states… and Michigan”

I love it!

 
Comment by CincyDad
2009-11-24 10:20:22

Over the summer, Michigan ran lots of ads here (Ohio) featuring all their golf courses, lakes, and beaches.

So they were obviously trying to define themselves as a ’sand state’.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-24 11:04:10

Spokanman

I said this a long time ago the kids will curse them in thier grave for throwing away their their inheritance on a Luxury house…paying for a $400K house is a lot of moolah per month

The losers of course are the beneficiaries of their estate, but thats a ways down the road.

 
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-24 13:03:14

Well, to be honest, I would rather enjoy my money while I’m alive that preserve it for the inheritance. Whatever happens to be left over when Mrs. Spokaneman and I depart the scene is what they get. Selfish? Perhaps.

 
 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-11-24 13:48:31

Well that looks like it includes people who were simply refinancing. And not EVERYBODY who refinances strips every dollar they can out of equity.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 07:45:42

Any new predictions on when all US citizens will be heard to say, “Real estate is the worst possible investment”?

Comment by arizonadude
2009-11-24 07:50:09

Not anytime soon.From what i am hearing business is booming in s. california at the low end.Bidding wars and people putting back on the 2005 party hats.They want to get the tax credit.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 08:01:49

From the WSJ article:

“11% of borrowers who took out mortgages in 2009 already owe more than their home’s value.”

Where do I sign up?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by cactus
2009-11-24 17:55:17

“From what i am hearing business is booming in s. california at the low end.Bidding wars and people putting back on the 2005 party hats.”

true here in Poway Ca at least for awhile

Now driving around Tucson things looked much worse…..

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 10:12:25

‘But borrowers who are less than 20% under water are likely to maintain their mortgage if their loan is modified and the payments reduced, said Sanjiv Das, head of Citigroup’s mortgage unit. “Beyond 120%, the most effective modification is a complete loan restructuring, including a principal reduction.”

Mortgage companies have been reluctant to reduce mortgage principal over worries about “moral contagion, with people not paying their mortgage or redefaulting because they believed the bank would reduce their principal,” Mr. Das said.’

Perhaps if the subprime mortgage lending kingpins had not used TARP to fund massive executive bonus payments, they would have a bit left on hand to fund mortgage principal reductions.

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 11:11:25

PB,

Or the moral ground to ’stand’ on?

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-11-24 10:12:52

Until “recovery” is defined as something other than “getting back to the business of buying and selling unaffordable houses with money we don’t have and scams we shouldn’t commit” there will be no recovery.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 10:13:54

‘Many borrowers are so deeply under water that they can’t take advantage of lower rates and refinance their mortgage. “We’re declining hundreds of loans each month,” said Steve Walsh, a mortgage broker in Scottsdale, Ariz. “The only way we will make headway is if we allow for a streamlined refinance where the appraisal is irrelevant.“‘

Yep. Appraisal fraud is the way to facilitate underwater refis. Sounds reasonable to me…

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 10:15:53

It’s just amazing to me how quick REIC veterans are to suggest blatantly fraudulent remedies to the ‘housing crisis.’

How about a reversion to affordable home prices? I never hear that one mentioned (just yet) in MSM articles.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 15:41:47

Streamlined financing? Irrelevant appraisal?

Hmm. Now where have we seen those before?

 
 
Comment by chilidoggg
2009-11-24 15:56:34

Like Montana remarked above, I bet that the real statistic is that 23% of all mortgages are higher than the property’s value. Unless someone goes through all the property tax rolls, assigns a fair market value therefor, and crossreferences them with any deed of trust. Unlikely. Math is hard. Journalism is apparently harder.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 04:37:51

December Gold Hits Another New High, Here’s Why…
November 23rd, 2009 ~ Gold and Silver Stocks.

It’s become a broken record for gold…

Another new high.

Another new high.

Another new high.

Why?

Because this isn’t Howard Ruff’s, Jim Sinclair’s, and Doug Casey’s gold bull any more. It’s John Paulson’s, Paul Tudor Jones’, and David Einhorn’s gold bull.

The gold bugs driving this bull run don’t own fallout shelters and basements full of MRE’s, they own Penthouses on the upper East side, and weekend homes in the Hampton’s.

And John Paulson isn’t pitching 1 ounce Silver Eagles on late night TV, he’s pitching a new fund of gold mining shares with a minimum buy in of $10 million. Yes, you read that right…

A minimum buy in of $10,000,000.00

Last week John Paulson, he of the single most profitable thematic trade in Wall Street history, (making $15 billion shorting subprime mortgage bonds), announced the formation of a new gold oriented fund, this one devoted to the higher leverage of gold mining stocks, in which he will personally invest between $200-$250 million of his own money.

While Paulson’s hedge funds already hold $3 billion dollars worth of positions in the GLD ETF, and gold mining shares such as AngloGold Ashanti and Kinross Gold, Paulson told the Wall Street Journal he was looking to increase his personal exposure to gold, and that his new fund was aimed at outperforming the metal.

Comment by arizonadude
2009-11-24 07:23:17

I think people are way to late to this party.

Comment by DennisN
2009-11-24 07:49:12

A problem with precious metals is that there’s lots more in the ground, and it will be extracted when spot prices exceed the cost of extraction by a certain profit margin. As an example, when the price of silver got above $X awhile ago, they re-opened the mines up in Silver Valley here in Idaho.

Historically over a BILLION ounces of silver has been extracted already from Silver Valley.

Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 08:15:35

A problem with precious metals is that there’s lots more in the ground,

Maybe: South Africa’s gold resources said vastly overstated

“Scientist Finds Gold Reserves More than 90% Less Than Claimed”

http://www.gata.org/node/8040

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Skip
2009-11-24 08:41:51

How much gold does a man really need?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 09:30:05

Gold ownership is a state of mind, kind of like home ownership. However, you cannot live in, eat in or procreate in your gold. Of course, there is no need to own your home in order to live in, eat in or procreate in it.

Conclusion: Gold ownership is an even more worthless state of mind than real estate ownership.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-11-24 09:32:10

“Scientist Finds Gold Reserves More than 90% Less Than Claimed”

“More than 90% Less Than”? WTF? Horribly written headline.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 09:57:40

Conclusion: Gold ownership is an even more worthless state of mind than real estate ownership.

Totally, unequivocally and absolutely true. (Except for the past decade of course)

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 10:25:56

Conclusion: “Gold ownership is an even more worthless state of mind than real estate ownership”.

Must be a fair amount of ‘worthless’ minds out there then. Perhaps they would have been smarter to buy pooka shells and coconuts. Never know that may be the next “bubble.” Because people are smart!

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 10:37:42

“(Except for the past decade of course)”

Next bubble: $US?

 
Comment by polly
2009-11-24 11:04:41

“However, you cannot live in, eat in or procreate in your gold.”

Best item I ever purchased - my education

Second best item I ever purchased - a good mattress

Third best item I ever purchased - a really good laundry sorter on wheels (essential for living in apartments without washer/dryers in each unit)

After that, I kink of get stuck. Nothing stands out so far above the rest as to be a certainty for number 4, though the ticket to see Ian McKellen’s Richard III would be in the mix.

 
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-24 13:10:37

I wonder how many kids graduating from Universities these days will count thier education as one of their better investments 20 years from now, particularly if they financed it with student loans.

I wold agree that for me, my education was my best investment, but I went to undergraduate college when $100 would pay books, a semester of tuition and a half rack to celebrate. Now that the basic cost of a state institution is $15,000 or so a year not including living expenses, and double that at a private or out of state school I wonder if that holds true.

Not saying it does or doesn’t, I just wonder.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 14:50:39

Polly — I love your rankings :-)

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 15:45:22

Well Spokaneman, I guess that would depend on if they have a job or not.

If past trends of the last 33 years are any indication, they won’t.

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 08:24:01

DennisN,

Correct. What’s more is that a lot of those bigger miners really suffered in share price as dollars vacated to move into more direct ownership. I ‘own’ a fair amt. and they’ve ‘already’ rallied substantially this year.

At some point, that trade will buckle as speculators transition to lesser known miners with a much less quantifiable pipeline to “strike it rich”. I don’t know where this guy is going?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by maplesucks
2009-11-24 08:38:02

PM is like oil. People just think there’s lots more in the ground.

If it was so easy to extract, most of it would have come out already when the miners had access to cheap oil and readily available credit.

The good ol’ days are gone I am afraid. I am not a gold bug, btw.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-11-24 09:48:57

“Historically over a BILLION ounces of silver has been extracted already from Silver Valley.”

Which also means there’s a billion ounces less than there was. Unlike gold, where most of the production since Day One is now sitting in vaults above ground, most of the silver ever produced has been consumed, gone forever, a few grams at a time in industrial use. Ask most people which is more plentiful, silver bullion or gold bullion, and either they don’t know, or they assume silver is more plentiful, because its price per ounce is less.

The main point however, is that it costs NOTHING to invent trillions or quadrillions of dollars. The story of precious metals these days is not how “high” they’re going; but rather, how “diluted” and “debased” the dollar is becoming.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-11-24 10:38:47

The story of precious metals these days is not how “high” they’re going; but rather, how “diluted” and “debased” the dollar is becoming.

Excellent point.

 
 
 
 
Comment by packman
2009-11-24 07:59:48

Shades of the Hunts. They’ve been there, done that, went bankrupt.

FWIW - personally, though I’m a big proponent of owning some gold - I think it really is reaching bubble territory, given all the hype. It’s hard to say given that it has such different and vague fundamentals.

I sold some GLD yesterday actually. Getting too hyped for me. Still got insurance though.

Comment by palmetto
2009-11-24 08:30:41

I keep a certain amount of scrap gold and silver around just in case. Works for me.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-11-24 09:20:39

My gold is in my mouth :)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 09:32:38

It’s not too late to ask your dentist to replace those gold fillings with silver, so you can sell your gold.

It’s beginning to look a lot like 1975. High inflation soon to follow, with the Fed to say “no one could have seen it coming.”

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 17:13:55

In Japan- ‘76, dentist officer bf and I ran into a clan of Japanese who were really really short and couldn’t speak 1 word of English, and these interior farmers had their entire mouths in gold and they smiled so big. BF was 6′6 so these wonderful gold-filled Japanese wanted to be photographed with such a tall human, grinning the entire time. That was a great photo.

Not to unlike the rappers who do their entire front teeth in gold.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 05:05:16

John P. Hussman, Ph.D. ~ Hussman Fund ~ Weekly Comment.
All rights reserved and actively enforced.

Last week, the Mortgage Bankers Association released the most comprehensive report available on third quarter delinquencies. Here is a summary of points from that report:

“The delinquency rate for mortgage loans on one-to-four residential properties rose to a seasonally adjusted rate of 9.64% percent of all loans outstanding as of the end of the third quarter of 2009. The delinquency rate breaks the record set last quarter. The records are based on MBA data dating back to 1972. The combined percentage of loans in foreclosure or at least one payment past due was 14.41% on a non-seasonally adjusted basis, the highest ever recorded in the MBA delinquency survey.

“Job losses continue to increase and drive up delinquencies and foreclosures because mortgages are paid with paychecks, not percentage point increases in GDP. Over the last year, we have seen the ranks of the unemployed increase by about 5.5 million people, increasing the number of seriously delinquent loans by almost 2 million loans and increasing the rate of new foreclosures (on a quarterly basis) from 1.07 percent to 1.42 percent,” said Jay Brinkmann, MBA’s Chief Economist.

“Prime fixed-rate loans continue to represent the largest share of foreclosures started and the biggest driver of the increase in foreclosures. The foreclosure numbers for prime fixed-rate loans will get worse because those loans represented 54 percent of the quarterly increase in loans 90 days or more past due but not yet in foreclosure. The performance of prime adjustable rate loans, which include pay-option ARMs in the MBA survey, continue to deteriorate with the foreclosure rate on those loans for the first time exceeding the rate for subprime fixed-rate loans.

“The outlook is that delinquency rates and foreclosure rates will continue to worsen before they improve. The seriously delinquent rate, the non-seasonally adjusted percentage of loans that are 90 days or more delinquent, or in the process of foreclosure, was up from both last quarter and from last year. Compared with last quarter, the rate increased 82 basis points for prime loans (from 5.44 percent to 6.26 percent), and 216 basis points for subprime loans (from 26.52 percent to 28.68 percent).”

As I noted a couple of weeks ago in The Second Wave Begins, we are now largely beyond the peak of the sub-prime mortgage crisis, and have just begun the second wave of Alt-A and Option-ARM resets. That’s important, because what we saw in the third quarter, then, was still part of the relatively tame and predictable March-November 2009 lull in the reset schedule. In that context, the surge in delinquencies and foreclosures on prime fixed-rate loans is disturbing, because that wasn’t even part of the reset equation, and represents a relatively pure effect of the weakness in employment conditions.

Now, we face a coupling of those weak employment conditions with a mountain of adjustable resets, on mortgages that have to-date been subject to low teaser rates, interest-only payments, and other optional payment features (hence the “Option” in Option-ARM). These are precisely the mortgages that were written at the height of the housing bubble, and therefore undoubtedly carry the highest loan-to-value ratios.

http://www.hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc091123.htm

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 05:25:59

Wells Fargo Takes Over Deed to Sea Island’s Frederica Community.

Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) — Wells Fargo & Co. took the deed to Sea Island Co.’s 3,000-acre Frederica community in Georgia, adding to the list of developments caught in the commercial property crunch.

Under the accord, disclosed by Wells Fargo yesterday, Sea Island transferred the deed on Nov. 19 to the residential and golf complex at the north end of St. Simons Island, 320 miles southeast of Atlanta. The community has a 400-acre lake, a Tom Fazio-designed golf course favored by St. Simons resident Davis Love III, river frontage and 600 home sites.

“As the lender to the Frederica development, Wells Fargo has been working closely with the Sea Island Company to explore options for the property that would serve the needs of both parties and the community,” the San Francisco-based bank said in an e-mailed statement.

Lack of credit, falling prices and waning occupancies forced borrowers to forfeit stakes in assets ranging from Boston’s John Hancock Tower to Sheffield57, a New York condominium conversion project. Last week, Morgan Stanley agreed to settle a $2 billion debt to Barclays Capital by giving up Crescent Real Estate Equities, which owned Canyon Ranch spa and resort residential developments.

Frederica was intended to be a “Pebble Beach of the East,” said Peter Capone, an architect who was Sea Island’s chief designer. Lot sales at Frederica, which reached more than $2 million a parcel in 2005 and 2006, were supposed to help finance the rest of Sea Island’s expansion, Capone said in an interview in October.

“That thing was positioned to make several hundred million dollars in land sales,” Capone said of Frederica.

Comment by ride the river
2009-11-24 07:21:52

Great find. I’ll take one of those lots please. Just put it on my TARP account at the Fed.

 
 
Comment by ATE-UP
2009-11-24 05:45:03

The Critical Unraveling of U.S. Society
By David DeGraw
The Public Record
Nov 19th, 2009

“Historians will look back at this time as a period in which corrupt despots ruled the masses with utter short-sighted greed and casted an illusion over the base population to keep the scam rolling along, until the end of the American empire, until the public driven economy came crashing down in a thunderous economic cloud of greed and corruption…”

Comment by combotechie
2009-11-24 05:49:58

And that’s the good news.

Comment by Bad Chile
2009-11-24 05:54:39

Yeah. He failed to mention that Cheetos will be unavailable after the crash.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-11-24 06:04:37

Specifically, ‘hot stuff’ Cheetos. And Mountain Dew, that won’t be available either. Bad times.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Bad Chile
2009-11-24 06:17:53

We don’t get ‘hot stuff’ Cheetos in New England. Serious.

So besides having over-priced decaying housing stock and the weather, is reason #3 I can’t wait to leave New England.

 
Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 06:52:05

Bow as low as Obama…to the Mighty Google. You order Hot Stuff Cheetos by the case here:

http://nationwidecandy DOT com/candy/itemdesc.asp?ic=S386959

:razz:

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 07:20:47

Specifically, ‘hot stuff’ Cheetos. And Mountain Dew, that won’t be available either. Bad times.

Yeah, but look at it this way - you’ll have all the Brawndo you need.

 
Comment by packman
2009-11-24 08:06:13

As long as Sun Drop is still around, I’ll survive.

 
Comment by Skip
2009-11-24 08:43:56

As long as its televised I will watch.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-11-24 09:37:20

Specifically, ‘hot stuff’ Cheetos. And Mountain Dew, that won’t be available either. Bad times.

As long as regular Cheetos are available, it’s not the End Times.

 
Comment by Wee Willy
2009-11-24 16:27:04

Viagara is going to be marketed as soda pop type of drink called “Mount & Do” This will give new meaning to the expression ” Pour me a stiff one”

 
 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 06:05:41

The bad news is the grammar.

Comment by DennisN
2009-11-24 07:52:23

Casted an illusion - sounds like icanhascheezburger lolspeak.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-11-24 07:40:54

lol

 
 
Comment by Muggy
2009-11-24 05:58:31

“until the end of the American empire”

Sketch this out for me: so when we can’t buy plastic junk on credit the world will go mad, murderous and then end?

What nobody is addressing, is the role of the internet in democracy — the level of global communication is entirely uncharted, and hackers like VAbeeyatch would become the new revolutionaries.

I don’t think it’s possible to get people to take up arms as easily as it used to be. Just google it — no need to burn down a village.

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 08:30:21

Muggy,

You didn’t arrive a ‘minute’ too soon! ( Thank you )

Lately I’ve seen a sea change where people are no longer snake fascinated by the PTB and are pressing on w/ their own, local agenda. Evidently we can manufacture our ‘own’ Thirst Annihilator ( it’s got electrolytes you know? )

Comment by maplesucks
2009-11-24 08:44:33

That was some good movie. The future of US in year 2220 not 2500.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 09:13:07

maplesucks,

If we’re not ‘there’ now? ( I’m sure you meant 2020, right? )

Case in point, I’m considering making an offer on a small electric guitar mfr. that’s had their name out there since the late 1950’s. They were never ‘huge’ by any measure and I have no illusions I’ll get wealthy in doing this.

But NO ONE that’s owned and played a (single) guitar ( or bass ) will so much as ‘touch’ a Chinese-made instrument. Touch. It’s only been a niche mkt. for the ‘current’ owner, why would it be a windfall for ‘me’? Still, I feel it’s something worth pursuing.

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-11-24 09:47:58

Ooh ooh ooh…Danelectro?

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 11:16:41

In Montana,

Close.., very close! I’ve spoken w/ their marketing arm and the 800lb. gorilla here is called ( of all things ) Musician’ Friend, a web site that carries -every- major brand.

No one wants to cross them. Except a few that don’t care anyway! Talk w/ any local music shop operator and you’ll find MF is their biggest comp. in that the gear they’ve sold all winds up on C/L or Ebay when people figure out ( even w/ all the modern teaching techniques ) that learning an inst. is -still- a beyatch!

 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-11-24 15:50:19

Hmm MF is owned by a corp I think, that also owns Guitar Center, and Music and Arts. On top of this, I think they own Woodwind and Brasswind. And on top of that, I think they own lots and lots of other retail stuff. Pretty scary. UNICORP!

Good luck on the guitar company!

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-11-24 18:16:30

Dude, check it out (my BIL is one of the luthiers) veilletteguitars.com

 
 
 
 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 05:59:38

But we got all that hopey n changey last year. I thought all was supposed to be well now. What happened?

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 06:04:11

Now you have that “hope in one hand” thing.

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 07:21:58

I thought all was supposed to be well now.

Yes, because it was only supposed to take 10 months to undo 8 years of abuse.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 07:50:21

Metinks you are a very naive young man Lavi, for such a free thinker. You don’t undo anything by going in the same direction with the pedal shoved to the floor. You don’t undo anything by promoting the back seat drivers to team captain.

Eight years? HAHA you are funny too.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 08:10:00

Metinks you are a very naive young man Lavi, for such a free thinker.

I didn’t say Obama was doing any better, did I? I just pointed out that if we gave Bush eight years, we can at least give Brock four before we declare failure.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 08:35:04

“You don’t undo anything by going in the same direction with the pedal shoved to the floor”

Well said. But I see the frustration-driven temptation to do so. After we’d taken the steps to bailout AIG etc. , there really ‘was’ no turning back. My guess is that they’re trying to just ‘power’ their way through it?

 
Comment by Skip
2009-11-24 08:46:03

You don’t undo anything by promoting the back seat drivers to team captain.

Does that mean you want Greenspan back in the saddle??

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 09:20:33

Honestly, what I really wanted was my boys back quick (as in alive).

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 17:22:13

After we’d taken the steps to bailout AIG etc. , there really ‘was’ no turning back.

We’d” couldn’t do anything of the sort. It was all pushed through by W and his clan in Aug/SEP of 08. Done is done.

There is no way “we’d” be able to get the sperm off that egg. Done is done.

 
 
 
Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 07:30:28

It’s a more long-term type of hopey n changey. The days of instant gratification — you know, the ooh-shinies that the teenagers on Wall Street wanted — already happened, and they came with a price tag. Republicans ran up the credit card, and Obama can only afford the minimum payment.

Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 07:37:26

Remind me again who ran Congress Jan 2007- Jan 2009?

And remind me again what Obama’s job was during that time? I could have sworn he was a Senator and part of the majority party that authorized the spending during those 2 years.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by drumminj
2009-11-24 07:47:40

And remind me again what Obama’s job was during that time? I could have sworn he was a Senator and part of the majority party that authorized the spending during those 2 years.

Spot-on, Eddie.

 
Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 08:03:29

They only had 50 votes in the Senate, barely enough to stop the bleeding. Don’t you know they need 60 to do anything new? Where were those fiscally conservative Republicans? Oh right, voting right along with Dems. And don’t forget who was at the Fed and who was lobbying whom. And the groundwork for this mess was laid long before 2007.

 
Comment by measton
2009-11-24 08:09:31

Senate was split 49 to 49 with 2 independents

 
Comment by Skip
2009-11-24 08:47:18

measton - quite it with the facts, you are ruining their fantasies.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 09:36:37

Skip,

Oh.., I don’t think there’s any denying Bush’s 2nd term was the longest lame duck session, and B.O’s campaign were anything but most drawn out in our history.

Actually, ever since he ’stole’ the election, various dissatisfied factions decided they didn’t have to listen OR follow.

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-11-24 09:49:16

Bush fell for the Prescription drug hype and felt he had to *do* something - anything..we’re seeing a replay of that mentality right now.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 10:33:16

So when the Dems control congress, they are not responsible for their spending. The kool-aid gets stronger and stronger.

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 17:26:30

majority party that authorized the spending during those 2 years.

Don’t forget, of the D’s 40 of them are bludawg- DINO’s and only vote with the R’s. So they are useless so far. Even in 07-09. They never were D’s.

Just remember Ed, for example, not all blonds are blond.
And not all of you guys are packing heat. IYGMD.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 08:00:53

“Republicans ran up the credit card, and Obama can only afford the minimum payment”.

Barry blew his opportunity to rein in this insane spending. Instead he lit up the after burners. Congress time and time again,shows it’s spineless and self severing. It’s not only wall street reaping tax dollars, check out the 535, both parties are dipping into the till as much as possible. Check out the billionaires list of the cesspool sometime.

Their motto… “I got mine by screwing you” and re-elect me and shut up.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Rancher
2009-11-24 08:18:47

The libs think that if they can continually get
elected by buying votes, that’s what they’ll do.
Once they get a solid majority of lib voters,
they’re in for life.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 08:39:32

“Instead he lit up the after burners”

Again, I don’t know that he had any choice? Let the cross-defaults reach epic proportion and allow credit ( the lifeblood ) seize up entirely?

Everyday the earth doesn’t stop spinning ( and reverse it’s rotation ) the market opens and Rancher enjoys a cup, it’s a good thing.

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2009-11-24 09:26:18

Oh Rancher,

Not just the libs, the conservs also put themselves out to the highest bidder.

 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2009-11-24 16:26:14

Only fraudulent conservatives like Dick Armey, Newt Gingrich, Bob Bennet, and their ilk. If you look at their voting records and who owns them, you’ll see they were never true conservatives.

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 17:30:00

they were never true conservatives.
Don’t forget scruffy lie berman who is owned by INS corps.
Not unlike Baucus who is owned by INS corps.
Yep, don’t forget the r’s are owned lock stock and barrel.
So, quit slinging the sh!t and take responsibility for your “kind” too.

 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2009-11-24 19:33:49

Establishment Republicans and Democrats are BOTH owned lock, stock and barrel. No argument here.

 
 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-11-24 10:31:32

You mean Obama who (like McCain), flew back to Washington during the campaign to make sure that the bankers got their loot by voting for TARP 1?

After seeing both candidates from the “two parties” commit that atrocity, it should have been obvious that neither one of them was going to change anything, at least not for the better.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 08:13:39

Suggestion for ya, Eddie. Why don’t you start up a “We Hate Obama” blog and take your nonstop anti-Obama diatribe away from here?

Just a thought…

Comment by maplesucks
2009-11-24 08:57:07

No need. We also have Obama die-hards here so it balances out.

In my judgment majority in this blog think dems=repubs. They both stink equally. Am I far off?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 10:20:59

No, you are not far off. That is why I think those who enjoy arguing the finer points of Repugnican versus Demoratic religion should take their discussion elsewhere. I want to keep talking about the ongoing housing crash, and these guys are way off topic.

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-11-24 10:38:11

Bear, did you suggest to the Bush-haters back in ‘05 to ‘08 that they take their venom elsewhere?

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 10:54:27

and these guys are way off topic.

Bear, in a way I can sympathize, but on the other hand, I skip over most of the gold and stock market discussions as well.

So, what the hell ya gonna do?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 11:48:47

“Bear, did you suggest to the Bush-haters back in ‘05 to ‘08 that they take their venom elsewhere?”

No, but I did often try to restrain my urge to pile on :-)

 
Comment by Ol'Bubba
2009-11-24 11:57:21

Someone here used the term “two hairy buttcheeks around the same stinkin’ bung hole” to describe the two major political parties. I forget who it was. Anyone want to claim authorship?

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 12:18:27

two hairy buttcheeks around the same stinkin’ bung hole

Bam!

Thanks to inksex.com

:)

 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2009-11-24 16:27:44

Guilty as charged.

 
 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 11:05:36

You could just skip my posts.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 11:13:40

Point taken.

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 12:05:13

You could just skip my posts.

Yeah, but then I’d miss those delicious occasions when someone (mostly oxide) knocks you back in your chair with facts.

:)

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 14:41:49

Facts? LOL. OK if that’s what you want to call them.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 14:54:17

My favorite was Eddie’s real estate finance lecture. lavi d, if you could please find a link to that one and post it right here below Eddie’s reference to “facts”, I would be eternally grateful. :-)

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 15:54:19

f you could please find a link to that one

I haven’t found it yet - but you did force me to improve the search function.

If you include search text, then the results will include the search text found and the following characters up to a total of 60 chars.

If you don’t include search text, you’ll get back the first 60 chars of each comment found.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 15:59:23

Well Eddie, it’s what the Financial Times, Bloomberg, Forbes, Reuters, The Economist, etc, call them.

Those aren’t too liberal for ya, are they? :lol:

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 16:01:47

Actually, I find a lot of what Eddie says to be somewhat reasonable.

But then, some of what he says sounds like full-on ditto-mode.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 16:36:23

Facts as dispensed by Oxide:

Fact 1: All real estate is overpriced, always will be.
Fact 2: Republican = Evil
Fact 3: Obama = Super duper terrific-o
Fact 4: Capitalism = EEEEEvvviilll

And so forth.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 16:37:58

PB:

The lecture where I showed that buying over 5 years would be a better deal that renting the same house? I used facts, figures and basic math. The counter-facts were….shut up troll.

Very persuasive indeed.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-11-24 06:12:10

Man-o-live are they making a fuss over Black Friday this year! It’s a full court press by the MSM. Yeah, yeah - they make a fuss every year, but seriously this is a noticeable increase even over last year.

Confidence or desperation? Time will tell.

Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 06:18:06

Neither. It’s what the MSM does every year. The 5am sales have been going on as long as I can remember. Nothing new this year. People are morons for spending hours in line outside a store to save $200 off a TV. But they’re no less moronic this year than years past.

The “big sales” are always the same. 70% off the crap nobody wants. 0% off the things people do want.

 
Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 06:21:07

I’m feeling a mad rush to the malls this year. In suburban Philly, anyway.

Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 07:21:25

The GAP is advertising in our area, that they will open at 3 A.M. Khols at 4 A.M.

Who in the hell would line up at that time of the morning? Other than drunks leaving bars or second shift workers. There is plenty of ’stuff’ out there no need to panic.

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 07:39:10

Early a.m. Black Friday shopping has now joined the “EVENT” category. The new holiday schedule is:

Thanksgiving Day: turkey dinner with family, then watch football. Then wake up at 2 a.m. to go stand online at Toys R Us or wherever. Last year one of the retailers was open ON Thanksgiving Day.
I don’t know if it’s just the stuff, I think there’s deep discounts in the pre-dawn hours. I’m just glad I worked retail when Black Friday was normal.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 17:35:49

CL inventory in 1-2 months!

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 08:44:14

wmbz,

I get up at 4 AM ‘every’ morning. And why get so personal about the bar crowd? It takes dedication to stay to close.

( What, you people think it’s ‘easy’ being a drunk? ) Let’s have a little respect here. At least w/ drunks there’s a definite guilt over their indulgence and they work all that much harder the next day to make up for it. Some of the hardest working people I’ve -ever- known were drunks.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-24 08:56:39

My daughter (23) goes to the black Friday deal with her friends, has for years. I get the idea that it is a social thing. Also, at that age particularly, they are slaves to marketeer manipulation. I guess that is to say, despite a college degree in finance, with honors, she still isn’t real bright about some things. The wierd thing is, any weekend day of the year, she wouldn’t dream of getting up before 10:00 AM. Never underestimate the force of group think.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by combotechie
2009-11-24 06:30:33

Non-stop Christmas music has been coming over my favorite radio station starting last week.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 06:38:20

I’m on the mailing list for STEEL….MASTER, a company that makes prefab kits for quonset hut type buildings. Pretty inexpensive DIY building alternative.

Their holiday sale is a whopping 75% off. Add to that the loss they are taking from the $CAD exchange rate (made in Canada) and you get a picture of the unsubsidized construction materials market.

I’ve got a feeling it will be Red Friday.

 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-11-24 07:51:48

Noticed and thought the same. Also came to the conclusion that any news article that uses the word “soar” is sensationalizing - as did the CNN dot com article yesterday on the expected Black Friday numbers.

I wonder if the news producers feel they are simply being good patriots by trying to create an illusion and rev people up to get out and spend or if execs connected to MSM advertisers are somehow connected and encouraging such articles.

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-11-24 08:00:30

Probably it’s the latter. The MSM revenue stream is under perhaps the worst stress in it’s history and competition from everyman via blogs and social networking sites is only growing.

 
 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-11-24 15:55:07

Man, I’d like to buy a Camcorder. Canon HF-20. Really I’d like the HF-200. Online, $550ish to $600ish. Best Buy, in the store, $800 or so. I read they will have them for $499 on Friday. I said, “Hey could you do this for $550 or so?” and the clerk said “Naw man.” Shouldn’t have procrastinated till it was time to take the trip. No way the camcorder costs $500 to make, if they sell the nice Elph cameras for $170. It’s basically the same thing with lower resolution CCD.

Comment by DD
2009-11-24 17:39:09

I have the FLIP and it is fabulous. Simple and fun. It is on qvc/hsn, and TarJay for cheap.
Flip really is a great little video camera.

 
 
Comment by kmfdm rules
2009-11-24 18:17:18

I cannot believe that so many people still participate in the commercial aspect of Christmas - OK lets go buy everyone else a bunch of crap they don’t want and you get a bunch of crap you don’t want. Adults buying each other crap is pointless - and for the kids just wrap up cash in boxes and put it under the tree - then take them shopping on the 26th and they can get more bang for the buck.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-24 18:23:42

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

This DJ really needs some gigs this holiday season…Ho Ho Ho

I hope I have a decent job so I wont have to do this next year…

 
 
 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 06:20:06

The Critical Unraveling of U.S. Society

Report Contents:
I: U.S. Societal Breakdown
II: Environmental Crisis
III: The Obama Myth
IV: Economic Coup – Theft of Trillions
V: National Emergency

http://pubrecord.org/commentary/6084/critical-unraveling-society/

Wow, NOT an article to read in a country that doesn’t have a lot of pancakes, meatloaf or other American comfort food….

But seriously, why are global warming, income equality, social justice, personal freedoms, wealth inequality, and health-care such partisan issues? Maybe because it suits someone’s interest to be so. Division. But this stuff is happening to all of us no matter which party line we spout.

We were all Americans before we became Democrats or Republicans. The gathering storm clouds forecast something ominous and of greater consequence than our so called political parties.

We can’t afford to be such bickering enemies now.

Comment by In Montana
2009-11-24 07:17:52

so just swallow the “social justice” and “global warming” Koolaid right now, eh?

Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 07:22:26

Global warming is the new religion of the left.

Comment by arizonadude
2009-11-24 07:30:43

global warming is another excuse to suck every last penny out of the serfs in this country.When are we going to have to pay for breathing?Dont we take in O2 and put out co2?So you my friend are a contributor to global warming all shall be jailed and all your property taken.No more tree cutting because they sequester carbon.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Bub Diddley
2009-11-24 09:55:16

Dealing with global warming means energy conservation, ending our reliance on foreign oil, reducing air pollution, and finding alternative energy sources. All of these things need to be done, whether global warming is really a threat or not.

If you think the threat of global warming is overblown, or even non-existent, the steps we would take to address it would be a net positive for the U.S.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 11:11:04

So let the free market figure out what should be done. Why do you insist on having Nancy/Harry/Bambi tell you how to live every single minute of your life?

If solar power or wind power or any of the other ideas are truly viable, they will become the norm. Look at hybrid cars. The govt didn’t have to force anyone into buying them. Consumers by the millions are buying them because they make sense economically. If one day it becomes cheaper for me to buy power from WindPower Inc than CoalBurning, Inc, I will. But I would rather have the choice and not be forced into one direction or the other by the government.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 11:45:46

So let the free market figure out what should be done.

Eddy, Come on please. It’s partly an act right? How can you even imply that we have “free” markets today? The “mutant capitalists” have left you behind to fight a rear guard action while they get away with their loot. You are the grunt, the cannon fodder in their scheme.

They don’t care if you become reduced to a babbling buffoon, mindlessly regurgitating inanities in their protection. In fact they count on it. This, today, is not our father’s capitalism. Our system today is a perversion of capitalism.

Even “Jack Bogle no longer sees Adam Smith’s “invisible hand” driving “capitalism in a healthy, positive direction.”

Today, his “Happy Conspiracy” of Wall Street plus co-conspirators in Washington and Corporate America are spreading a contagious “pathological mutation of capitalism” driven by the new “invisible hands” of this new “mutant capitalism,” serving their selfish agenda in a war to totally control America’s democracy and capitalism.

Jack Bogle is a true capitalist, an honorable man who spent his career in the belly of the beast and I believe him.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/15-signs-wall-street-pathology-is-spreading-2009

I don’t think you are one, but to hear wanna-be business titans and apologists for a failed system spout on about our “free” markets in the face of current reality is pathetic.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 14:52:28

Well if Jack Bogle says so, it must be so. Is he one of those “truth tellers” like Ron Paul and Alex Jones that knows what’s really happening? Come on.

I never said free markets are perfect. No system is obviously. But to suggest that somehow because we had a housing bubble we should throw away the whole thing in favor of government run EVERYTHING is ludicrous.

Just ask yourself what new technology was ever adopted because the govt brought it to market. And yes, I know one of you will jump in with bbbbbbut the govt invented the internet. Sure and capitalism took the infrastructure and created google, yahoo, ebay which in turn made some people incredibly wealthy. And I have no problem with that. I think i’ts great that the founders of Google are billionaires. Look it at it this way. Do you think the world would be better off without Google and fewer billionaires or with Google and more billionaires?

In your world the govt would have decided which browser was best and we’d all be using Netscape 1.0 still since there would have been no incentive to innovate. That’s what will happen with “green” tech if left to the govt. Look to the USPS for a clue as to how innovative and efficient the next generation of energy will be when it’s operated for and by the government.

But at least we won’t have mutant capitalists running around so all will be well.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 16:00:39

Eddy,
to suggest that somehow because we had a housing bubble we should throw away the whole thing in favor of government run EVERYTHING is ludicrous.

I know Eddy, that’s why I didn’t suggest it…

Just ask yourself what new technology was ever adopted because the govt brought it to market.

Many, many, but indirectly. (now this gets complicated) It’s more governments role to invest public money in Pure Science through public projects and University grants, which then create scientific breakthroughs that improve society and put money in capitalist’s pockets because they now can utilize the scientific breakthroughs.

Do you think the world would be better off without Google and fewer billionaires or with Google and more billionaires?

I think the world would be better off with Google and more billionaires. (But billionaires taxed at 64.7%)

Look to the USPS

The USPS shipped my company’s product to Hawaii, Puerto Rico and Guam from California for cheaper than UPS. The customers insisted I use them. In 14 years, I never lost a box nor have I lost a letter in the mail in 20 years.

In your world………

I don’t think you want to understand my world. I try to look at issues from both sides and judge them on the merits and not on party lines.

Well if Jack Bogle says so, it must be so. Is he one of those “truth tellers”?… Come on.

Judging by your comments, you obviously don’t know Jack.

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 17:46:19

Judging by your comments, you obviously don’t know Jack.

Well done.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 18:00:57

The USPS, like Amtrak has lost money forever. It got your package there using twice the manpower that FedEx would use. It cost less because it is subsidized by the govt.

You do realize that the vast majority of research at universities is funded by private companies? Right?

The facts stare you in the face and you refuse to look.

What has government invented in the last 20 years? What technological breakthrough has it achieved? Any wonder drugs? Any revolutionary advances in medical devices? Did govt develop the hybrid car? The electric car? How about the cell phone? Facebook? Word processing software? Spreadsheets? Digital cameras? iPod? Think of the 50 pieces of technology you used today. Any of them developed in a government run lab? Has govt produced any great works of art? Music? TV shows? Films?

All of that was developed, improved and sold to hundreds of millions of people by capitalists for profit.

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 18:26:05

Just a ray of sunshine when you start keying.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 18:39:00

Oh I’m sorry. I didn’t get the memo that it was sunshine and lollipop day.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 18:47:04

“Just ask yourself what new technology was ever adopted because the govt brought it to market.”

NASA = govt agency

Rockets that travel to the moon, and the computers to run them = new technologies

2 + 2 = 4

Any questions?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 18:48:38

P.S. Technology development is the issue. A baboon can steal someone else’s bright technological idea and bring it to market.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 19:06:53

(USPS) cost less because it is subsidized by the govt.

No, and besides, we can’t get rid of the post office. It’s in the constitution.

“The (USPS) is an independent agency of the US government … It is one of the few government agencies explicitly authorized by the United States Constitution… The USPS has become self-sufficient and has not received taxpayer-dollars since the early 1980s.” Source: wikipedia.org

You do realize that the vast majority of research at universities is funded by private companies? Right?

Now, yes but I also considered public funding of military and security projects.

What technological breakthrough has (government) achieved?

I addressed this in my last post. (the complicated part) That part also addressed your last sentence.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-11-24 19:28:09

Now let me wager on this…… Eddietard will come back and say NASA doesn’t count because their achievements were “before his time” no different than were he stated “Ed Sullivan is 30 years before my time”

Two lessons learned here

1) EddieTard is still junior to most everyone here
2) EddieTard hasn’t experienced enough of lifes challenges to speak with any credibility or wisdom.

 
 
Comment by measton
2009-11-24 08:24:26

Down with science down with science it’s just a religion right eddie. As I see it your side is the faith based side. You just believe strongly global warming isn’t occurring and at the same time isn’t man made. You just believe strongly that there are endless energy reserves. Never mind the facts or science.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by In Montana
2009-11-24 09:52:03

Science! LOL. We see now what kind of “science” that was.

http://tinyurl.com/26vvyz

 
Comment by Left LA
2009-11-24 10:21:02

Yeah. “The debate is over”. As in, the research has been falsified and the PowerPoint presentation won an Oscar, so it is definitely a FACT.

Pfffft.

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-11-24 10:54:28

Um, measton, have you been following the news about climategate?

The case for human-caused global warming used false data and ignored data that didn’t meet their pre-determined conclusion.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 11:14:33

Measton, you are giving Exy The Union Thug a run at “drinker of most kool-aid” award. Try reading something other than Kos and you might discover that finally the myth of man mad change/global warming is exposed for the world to see.

Only the kool aid guzzlers fail to see what has been known to many of us for years.

 
Comment by measton
2009-11-24 12:26:20

The debate is never over
Science always tests and retests it’s conclusions.
The vast majority of non Exxon funded climatologists believe that
A. The world will continue to get warmer.
B. This is due to green house gases
C. That man has contributed to this build up in green house gases.

Ask yourself
1. Which is more likely, that the vast majority of scientists have been bought off by the rich and powerfull green technology lobby, or that science has been discredited by Coal and oil producers and Utilities. I’d say the latter group has much more money and political influence. It’s similar to the 70’s when big tobacco tried to muddy the scientific conclusion that tobacco causes cancer.
2. There are many predictions on Peak oil even if you don’t believe in science at the very least you must accept that there is a finite amout of recoverable oil, that the US sends huge sums of money to countries that hate us for said oil. Wouldn’t it benefit our country to become more efficient?

 
Comment by james
2009-11-24 14:35:32

Measton,

I think the DATA didn’t show that over the last decade. In fact, the whole scandal is that researchers were attempting to make a trend appear when the data showed no such thing.

Basically they started taking multiple temperature records and overlaying them so it showed a positive trend. In fact, their own emails mention a trend downward.

This brings heavily into question their models. Were they wasting time/effort modeling false data as well?

They had predicitions of an eponentially accelerating temperature trend and it didn’t happen.

At this point one would seriously have to question what kind of motivation was behind this behavior. And before continuing down the path of funding this venture.

This is really bad.

 
 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 17:43:20

Maybe you dont’ agree with it, but why wouldn’t you want a better environment for you children/grandchildren?

Why wouldn’t you want better water supply for your children, gkids?
Why wouldn’t you want to know that your environment-housing wasn’t full of crap that will make you really ill, because some corp decided to make a profit over and above the health of all future exposure?

Maybe you don’t agree with the concept, but why wouldn’t you want something better for yourself and your family? And heck, why not make some $ off of it, since that is the predominant thing that drives “you”. How about making it a WIN-WIN situation?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 07:32:32

so just swallow the “social justice” and “global warming” Koolaid right now, eh?

Right now, I would put up with some of the beliefs of both bankrupt political parties if it meant that the cause of America was served first and foremost.

 
Comment by James
2009-11-24 07:35:34

I think we are in the vigilance stage of social justice but fretting about creeping socialism that seems to accompany it.

Global warming… el crappola.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-11-24 07:36:17

“so just swallow the “social justice” and “global warming” Koolaid right now, eh?”

There’s that compassionate conservatism showing again.

I thought conservatives like to uphold Chrstian values?

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 08:42:12

The problem is that “social justice” has been corrupted to meaningless buzzword status. Jesse Jackson’s idea of social justice is different than Joseph Ratzinger’s is different than Camille Paglia’s.

And then there’s the Kennedys whose idea of social justice apparently includes pulling strings to expiate the woman-abusing sins of various and sundry male clan members.

Oh well, boys will be boys.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 09:13:41

The problem is that “social justice” has been corrupted to meaningless buzzword status.

Corrupted yes. Meaningless no.

Differences do not negate basic truths. Just because Gandhi’s concept of social justice was different than Pol Pot’s does not mean that one of them wasn’t wrong.

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-11-24 09:53:25

I think it was Hayek who said whenever you attach “social” next to a word it sucks the meaning right out of it.

 
Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 10:00:17

Rio -
a buzzword by definition is meaningless.

Some synonyms:
“Noun 1. buzzword - stock phrases that have become nonsense through endless repetition
cant
hokum, meaninglessness, nonsense, nonsensicality, bunk - a message that seems to convey no meaning ”

However, I do get your point. Could we agree that the term is not meaningless, but valueless?

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 10:05:40

I think it was Hayek who said whenever you attach “social” next to a word it sucks the meaning right out of it.

Cool! I’ll remember to tell that to my doctor if I’m ever diagnosed with a social disease!

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 10:16:33

Could we agree that the term is not meaningless, but valueless?

I understand, but that would mean I consider it a buzzword which I’m not sure I do yet.

 
Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 11:33:10

OK…how about -
“User Specific”

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 11:55:54

OK…maybe the social part but I’m really having a hard time classifying the “justice” part that way….

I gotta think more on it….

 
Comment by exeter
2009-11-24 13:32:08

And watch the apologists posing as Christians run…

Run!!!!

 
Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 15:20:35

And watch the apologists posing as Christians run…

Run!!!!

Do you have anything substantive or remotely of interest to add to this discussion? Your most recent contribution strikes me as one more gratuitous shot à propos of nothing.

(And as predictable as the dog turds that appear in my neighbor’s back yard, courtesy of their rottweiler’s morning dump.)

let me add the requisite passive-aggressive smiley, just for conformity’s sake:
:)

 
Comment by exeter
2009-11-24 18:13:53

Then stop running, ducking and weaving from Rio’s point.

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 18:27:32

Then stop running

bingo.

 
Comment by X-philly
2009-11-25 08:27:47

eckseter and Double D:

However, I do get your point. Could we agree that the term is not meaningless, but valueless?

see my comment to Rio at 1000. Did either of you read the thread?

 
 
Comment by james
2009-11-24 11:30:16

Just curious about what Christian values you are upholding?

My family and I are active in the church and make big efforts to support “First Serve”. We bake them something every monday. That along with giving them $.

We’re going on mission to help orphans in Mexico early next year.

We are going to make turkeys for the homeless this week.

I’m forgoing gifts at my birthday and Christmas and instead giving money and time to charities.

So, what are you doing to help?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by packman
2009-11-24 11:49:06

Apparently you didn’t get the memo. Christian values are supposed to only mean forcing your beliefs in ghostly deities on other people, and extracting money in return.

Bad, bad Christian.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 12:07:18

So, what are you doing to help?

I’m sorry. Were you addressing me?

 
Comment by james
2009-11-24 15:00:52

RioAmerican… I was addressing Exeter but if you feel like you need to reply, please do. :)

@packman;

Part of the missionary works is talking about accepting Jesus as a savior in your life. I’m getting inspired to help people through my church and doing good works. Personally, I’m way to unmotivated and disorganized to do this with out them. Helping orphans, homeless, prisoners and other parisioners.

Maybe, I’m talking to my imaginary friend but hopefully its the good lord inspiring me. At least one can hope and give over to faith.

One hopes that our church pastors and leaders are being good sheppards with the money we donate. From what I can see, with my own eyes, is they are right in the thick of things helping people on a day to day basis. I’m very happy with the level of dedication I’ve seen and can’t imagine that a guy would work as much as our pastor does with out it being a matter of faith. That is pretty much goes all out in his missionary work 7 days a week for about 50 weeks a year. A whopping two weeks off a year.

Like everyone else, we all have crisis of faith all the time. Perhaps we are just kidding ourselves and I’d be lying badly to say I haven’t sinned or haven’t lost faith many times. That is part of who and what we are. It’s who the church has to work with, sinners all.

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 17:58:46

One hopes

Yes, tell that to the pastor who got disbarred from his mega church in Palm Desert when many polaroids surfaced from the Jacuzzi with him naked, women naked - not his wife-oops- “It isn’t what it looks like”.
And don’t forget the guy in Colorado Spgs mega church who always sermonized on anti-gay, but was driving north to Denver to get a “massage” from his gay masseuse and “try” crystal meth.
And don’t forget Larry typing under the bathroom stall- I ain’t gay but am christian=Craig.
Mr Baker and his affair while using parishioners $ wildly.

Can we get back to HOUSING?

 
Comment by james
2009-11-24 18:28:09

I don’t go to a mega church and have no experience with them.

We have a nice congregation of about 1200 people.

When I say the pastor is doing good work and I’ve seen it with my own eyes; it means I’ve been physically side by side with him feeding the homeless. This on a weekly basis. Though occasionally I think he sneaks a doughnut out of the donations. Or helping maintain an orphanage. Right there doing the work.

And yes, people at churches are going to be fallen and do bad things.

Lots of venom from you DD.

Things getting to you?

Really, what are you doing to make things better? What have you done in the last six months?

 
 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 17:50:54

I thought conservatives like to uphold Chrstian values?
Nah, just family values.

Hey babe, your husband is on the phone, but first lets do the nasty, my wife will never find out, uh oh, the CEO of InsCo is calling me now, yes I will take your handwritten talking points and present them as mine, hurry up babe- I got to get ready for my family photo in 30 minutes for our state pic.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 18:11:36

I hope for you that you are not sharing your own experience.

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 18:30:54

you are not sharing your own experience.

Nope, just what happened locally.
And responding to post on how ‘good’ pastors and R’s are vs D’s.

Someone earlier posted that there are quite a few on both sides who need to be taken out to the shed, but Ed keeps sniping one-sidedly.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 06:29:02

“The ‘Real’ Jobless Rate: 17.5% Of Workers Are Unemployed”.

Blacks hit hard by economy’s punch.
34.5 percent of young African American men are unemployed
November 24, 2009 ~ Washington Post

These days, 24-year-old Delonta Spriggs spends much of his time cooped up in his mother’s one-bedroom apartment in Southwest Washington, the TV blaring soap operas hour after hour, trying to stay out of the streets and out of trouble, held captive by the economy. As a young black man, Spriggs belongs to a group that has been hit much harder than any other by unemployment.

Joblessness for 16-to-24-year-old black men has reached Great Depression proportions — 34.5 percent in October, more than three times the rate for the general U.S. population. And last Friday, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that unemployment in the District, home to many young black men, rose to 11.9 percent from 11.4 percent, even as it stayed relatively stable in Virginia and Maryland.

His work history, Spriggs says, has consisted of dead-end jobs. About a year ago, he lost his job moving office furniture, and he hasn’t been able to find steady work since. This summer he completed a construction apprenticeship program, he says, seeking a career so he could avoid repeating the mistake of selling drugs to support his 3-year-old daughter. So far the most the training program has yielded was a temporary flagger job that lasted a few days.

“I think we’re labeled for not wanting to do nothing — knuckleheads or hardheads,” said Spriggs, whose first name is pronounced Dee-lon-tay. “But all of us ain’t bad.”

Construction, manufacturing and retail experienced the most severe job losses in this down economy, losses that are disproportionately affecting men and young people who populated those sectors. That is especially playing out in the District, where unemployment has risen despite the abundance of jobs in the federal government.

Traditionally the last hired and first fired, workers in Spriggs’s age group have taken the brunt of the difficult economy, with cost-conscious employers wiping out the very apprenticeship, internship and on-the-job-training programs that for generations gave young people a leg up in the work world or a second chance when they made mistakes. Moreover, this generation is being elbowed out of entry-level positions by older, more experienced job seekers on the unemployment rolls who willingly trade down just to put food on the table.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 07:10:33

dealing drugs is a “mistake”?

Comment by In Montana
2009-11-24 07:21:15

that’s what they call it now. Please don’t hurt De-lon-tay’s feelings…

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-11-24 07:56:17

You forgot “to support his 3-year-old daughter”.

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 09:00:58

Unfortunately that’s the reality in the Black community. Not everyone who makes that mistake once or twice develops into a career dealer, but otherwise law abiding citizens have been known to hustle when their backs are against the wall. It’s a dangerous game on many fronts, and the one group who is offering help to these young men is the group that’s most ridiculed- the church.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Skip
2009-11-24 08:53:41

dealing drugs is a “mistake”?

You can’t sell to an unwilling customer. And customers are still good people. Rush Limbaugh supporters pls post below.

 
 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 07:33:25

“I think we’re labeled for not wanting to do nothing”

A man with grammar as awesome as his can’t find a good job? Shocka.

 
 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 06:44:31

But we got all that hopey n changey last year. I thought all was supposed to be well now. What happened?

What happened is that there are too many Americans who have been conditioned to spout party lines and the results of one-way thinking.

They possess an unyielding and hostile mindset that disavows facts that are contrary to those partisan opinions currently held. For them the world is only black or white and the person of the other party is the enemy.

However, theirs is not the type of rationality or patriotism that will help our country.

Comment by combotechie
2009-11-24 06:48:52

“What happened is that there are too many Americans who have been conditioned to spout party lines and the results of one-way thinking.

I, personally, am strongly against this one-way thinking; I feel everyone has a right to my opinion.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 07:25:02

What happened is that there are too many Americans who have been conditioned to spout party lines and the results of one-way thinking.

——-

Like “NO WAR FOR OIL” or “BUSH LIED PEOPLE DIED”? That kind of slogan?

Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 07:56:34

Like “NO WAR FOR OIL” or “BUSH LIED PEOPLE DIED”? That kind of slogan?

Yes, those kinds of quotes, although the part about Bush lying might transcend both of our points of views.

Those quotes would earn you a C in my book but to have earned an A, you would have needed to quote two similar type quotes coming from the right-wing. (only to be fair and balanced)

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 08:52:36

O.K,

Clinton lied, nobody died.

Fair enough?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-11-24 09:41:07

Clinton lied, nobody died.

Except for Vince Foster (among others).

 
Comment by bill
2009-11-24 10:03:03

Tell that to the Belgrade Chinese Embassy bombing victims. Also to the Sudan pharmaceutical factory bombing victims.

 
Comment by measton
2009-11-24 10:16:58

Yes and Ron Brown was shot in the head just before his plane crashed. I guess the killer really wanted to make sure he was dead. Orders to killer

First shoot Ron Brown in the Head then crash plane into mountain. Payment will be made on your return.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 10:23:07

“Yes and Ron Brown was shot in the head just before his plane crashed.”

Wow — I never realized the Clintons were that corrupt. You do learn some remarkable things reading on this blog.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 11:17:45

He didn’t lie about it but he did kill about 100 kids at Waco.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 11:23:23

Who among the more conservative crowd has made ANY such assertion that is what took place? The only time we hear theories like that is from the Left as a set up to that telling blow sucker punch/strawman.

No thanks, again.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 11:47:14

“He didn’t lie about it but he did kill about 100 kids at Waco.”

Remember Waco!

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 12:22:08

I see. 100 kids dying in a fire is a joke to the left. Hey they were Christian and they were from TX so I guess they deserve a hellish death.

Dude that is downright sick, even for a lib.

 
Comment by james
2009-11-24 12:27:02

Eddie et al. Please enjoy my unfocused ramble.

Bush did get a lot of people killed. Was it a good choice in Iraq? Who knows.

Afganistan… everyone understood that back in 01.

I wonder about Clinton and the yahoo’s at the ATF… There are some people that believe he wanted to make a strong statement against the Christian right. Not sure I blame him beyond the initial raid though. Those guys from the ATF though… boy they had been getting loopy for a while.The majority of that I put on them. Seemed like the Davidians were a bunch of bad guys though.

Clinton did seem to have an inordinatly large number of dead people surrounding him. What bothered me…I remember there was some link between Clinton and some kind of robbery/execution in Georgetown at a starbucks. Rumor of a liason with Clinton or perhaps mistaken identitiy of the girl with respect to Monica L. The right wing paramilitary people I worked with, the conservative elves, seemed to be trying out surveillance gear on the whitehouse. !Not associated with guys I work with now!!

Anyhow.

You elect southerners and you get a trail of dead people and scandals.
And affairs. See Clinton and the idiot in South Carolina. Probably best just to supply these guys with hot babes that keep things in house.

Elect a guy from Chicago (or New Jersey)and you expect a bunch of fraud. Could be a trail of boddies. Maybe not. They seem to be happier just stealing something. I often suspect you should just leave some easy targets for them. Maybe like a walet with a few hundred dollar bills in it sitting on the edge of a table.

Elect a guy/gal from California and expect left wing moonbat fringe visionary (not necessarily connected to reality). Best thing to do is have some half baked enviromentally friendly energy source they can blow a few mill on. With any luck, they’ll get distracted and not hurt anyone.

Elect someone from Texas and expect the guy is trying to win the civil war, or war of northern agression if you so prefer. Best thing to do is pick out some small island nation and just blast the snot out of it. With any luck you can probably convince him the “enemies” are some kind of alien. Hopfully the guy isn’t too familiar with island species. Tough on the lizards but would minimize the loss of human life.

Now, we get a major midwestern bible thumper in there… whoa… not sure I’ve got a good solution there. Probably get him/her into a big long distraction about whether or not condoms should be legal.

The key for this country to survive though is gridlock… you get either group unified in control and we are using the bible as a scientific text or taking computer models as more accurate than reality.

I think the global warming swindle is winding down now. All the rumors of falsified data, politicized science and everything else ugly have been confirmed. That is probably the biggest news story of the decade.

Along with an audit process on the Fed.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 16:14:52

“Elect someone from Texas and expect the guy is trying to win the civil war, or war of northern agression if you so prefer. ”

WTF?

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 16:57:15

WTF?

He is referring to the American Civil War. The Civil War was fought between 1861-1865 where the North fought the South to restore the Union and in the process end slavery.

The South referred to it as “The War of Northern Aggression”. I think because that name sounded better in Richmond.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 18:13:30

Thanks Professor. Having grown up and lived in the South most my life, this is the first I’ve heard of this thing called the Civil War. Wait a minute, is that what Gone With The Wind was all about? I’ll be damned, it all makes sense now. Might also explain why no building in Atlanta was build before 1865.

Oh PS: The war was never about slavery, that was just Yankee PR to get their boys sent to the slaughter factory. Something about states’ rights. But slavery makes a much better story so let’s go with it for now.

Actually the WTF referred to the part about Texas presidents wanting to relive the war. It always amuses me when Yankees pontificate about what Southerners think. And even more amusing when they think Texas is a Southern state.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 20:10:17

Might also explain why no building in Atlanta was (built) before 1865.

Exactly. William Tecumseh Sherman, of the Union Army, captured the city in 1864 and it somehow burned to the ground. He then marched his army to the sea.

The war was never about slavery, that was just Yankee PR to get their boys sent to the slaughter factory.

From the North’s point of view, it started mostly to save the Union for sure but it became a war to end slavery which did make it more noble and more marketable. The South had a good point about states rights but not in relation to slavery.

Actually the WTF referred to the part about Texas presidents ……

I know. I also know the South has different feelings about the war than the North.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Lip
2009-11-24 06:51:44

The Fix is In

“For more than a decade, we’ve been told that there is a scientific “consensus” that humans are causing global warming, that “the debate is over” and all “legitimate” scientists acknowledge the truth of global warming. Now we know what this “consensus” really means. What it means is: the fix is in.”

“This is an enormous case of organized scientific fraud, but it is not just scientific fraud. It is also a criminal act. Suborned by billions of taxpayer dollars devoted to climate research, dozens of prominent scientists have established a criminal racket in which they seek government money-Phil Jones has raked in a total of £13.7 million in grants from the British government-which they then use to falsify data and defraud the taxpayers.”

Is it all about getting the next year’s grant money?

Comment by combotechie
2009-11-24 07:03:07

“Is it all about getting next year’s grant money?”

Of course.

The most conservative goups one will ever find are researchers.

One would think mainstream scientists would be open to the search for Truth and would go wherever the search would take them. Not so; most of the astonishing scientific breakthroughs have come from maverick scientiests, not mainstreamers.

Mainstreamers need funding hence they are not willing to stick their necks out. Mavericks also need funding and common sense says they shouldn’t stick their necks out but they can’t help themselves because their convictions are too strong.

All IMHO.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 07:13:21

You sound like one of thsoe “Round Earth” heretics.

 
Comment by Rancher
2009-11-24 07:21:34

100%

 
Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 07:33:36

Agree, combo. Researchers have been known to lie to get their contracts. I know this personally. A boss asked me to lie in order to get research money, I called him on it, it didn’t end well for me.

 
Comment by Mike in Miami
2009-11-24 07:41:33

“… most of the astonishing scientific breakthroughs have come from maverick scientiests, not mainstreamers”
Did you just make that up?
All scientists need funding, no funding = no research. Only the independently wealthy can afford to work for free. Grants happen to be the main source of funding in science. The problem at hand seems to be caused by a certain amount of “inbreeding”. A bunch of buddies reviewing each other’s publications while keeping critical publications from “outsiders” making it through the review process.
Occasionally you have some rogue elements entering science, just like in banking, sports, politics, etc.
That certainly doesn’t discredit all science or even proves that global warming doesn’t exist.

Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 08:17:37

Again, I have personal experience with this. I tried to publish a paper that was scientifically very good but politically very unpopular. In order to review a paper you have to be familiar with the subject matter. All the reviewers were on the other side of the issue, so to speak, largely because they had received funding from the other side. My paper was rejected twice. I finally had to publish the paper in a journal based in Europe.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 07:06:13

Global Warming:

Who cares if there is a proven cause of global warming…even if there isn’t, shouldn’t we be fighting pollution anyway?

I don’t understand this whole partisan debate. Isn’t pollution bad? Republicans don’t want clean air for their children?

God’s earth, with man (made in God’s image) as its caretaker should not be taken care of?

Comment by In Montana
2009-11-24 07:24:30

If it’s for clean air, fine. But don’t threaten us with hellfire and damnation over it. Talk about crying wolf!

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 07:30:07

Republicans want dirty water for their children. They also like eating puppies and kittens for breakfast.

I do wonder though why Mr. Green President needs a 74 car motorcade? And why does Mr. Gore insist on flying in a private jet everywhere he goes? And why is it that every liberal Hollywood imbecile spouting about “global warming” lives in a 5000 sq ft ocean side mansion…any by every I mean specifically Barbara Streisand.

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 07:42:52

Kittens taste especially good but I kept coughing up furballs after the fact.

No breakfast kitties for me anymore. :(

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by peter a
2009-11-24 07:56:18

What wrong with eating puppies,it tastes better that kittens.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 08:26:19

Republicans want dirty water for their children. They also like eating puppies and kittens for breakfast.

Many times Republicans vote like they don’t care what kind of water their children will have.

I would try dog for lunch or dinner if I were in a country where they knew how to cook it. Cats, no. But I’m not a Republican now either.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 11:20:07

Not really. Republicans vote like they don’t buy the statist control of industry (see Cap N Trade as exhibit A) under the guise of saving the environment.

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 08:59:44

People….?

People…, who need… ( things! )

Yeah, gotta’ love the “All you need is loot!” crowd.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Lip
2009-11-24 07:33:24

RioAm,

Right, we all want a cleaner environment but we don’t want
to be spending too much money when the benefits are limited. Putting the federal bureaucrats in charge of anything is a recipe for waste and abuse. For some this is all a ruse to raise the taxes and control the masses.

In addition, I hate to be lied to by a bunch scientists/personalities who have other reasons ($$$) to spout what they say that they believe.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 07:43:09

In my lifetime, tremendous progress has been made reducing pollution in the US. This was one of the dreams of my generation in our youth and it has become a reality. Thank you all “Boomers”.

Now, if you tell me that the very air I exhale is the biggest single danger to this little globe God gave us to steward, that the stuff that makes trees and grass and algae in the sea grow, is evil, and that fire, which releases the same gasses as a fallen tree trunk returning to the soil, is the greatest of all evils, I have to think about it. It sounds like you have to destroy nature to save it and me along with it. I scratch my head.

Next you tell me that you have to tax the things I do by nature in order to save me, you spend these taxes on your own luxuries and I see things a little clearer. Your science is like the science of the church in the Dark Ages: Here is the conclusion, arrived at by committee, accept it or else, now give us your stuff.

People are not angry about good stewardship of the garden we live in, they are angry about lies, angry about control and taxation by force for the betterment of the elite.

The housing bubble destroyed more pristine farm land and forest and mineral resources than we could afford to loose, and the governments of the world want to keep that party going at any cost (to us). They don’t expect us to conserve, the expect us to grow and expand and pay more taxes and go further into debt to strengthen their hand. They will lie as naturally as they steal. That is what I am angry about in this whole Global Goreing (TM) fiasco of illogic, nothing to do with partisan politics. It is a policy of lie, tax, waste and control.

Comment by palmetto
2009-11-24 08:21:55

Wow, that’s just an awesome post, Blue Skye. Thank you for a great, heartfelt piece of writing. Wish I was as articulate and expressive.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 08:26:51

Awesome post, but it contains a logical fallacy. The problem isn’t the nature of the individual elements, it’s simply the sheer amounts that will get you.

Shall I eloquently sing the praises of water, at the same time as cutting the throats of those who are trying to save me from drowning in a flood?

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 09:07:49

Blue Skye,

And you’ve no idea just what an impactful statement that is! It’s so damn hard to get people to see when the only thing they remember about the 70’s is Disco?

I distinctly recall driving around in the car w/ my dad. Not a ‘bad’ guy ( just your typical Chicagoan of that era ) He’d get a new pack of smokes. Throw the cellophane warapper out the window. Along with each smoked butt. When completed he’d angrily crumple the pack and throw ‘that’ out the window too!

It was just the prevailing attitude of the time. Yes, women did it too. The thought of getting a ticket for ‘that’ seemed utterly absurd! We played in contruction sites where asbestos and toxic adhesives were left outside to roam free for months if not years. OSHA didn’t even exist. Try to recall something about the 70’s besides the BeeGee’s people.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 09:13:34

That is my point exactly, the saving you part. Yes, there is water. I don’t know how much and really neither do you. It is raining in fact while I prepare my lunch. Mostly, you do not know that a tsunami is about to break over me, but you tell me so for your own purposes. You force me away from my table and have me removed to higher ground, and without my lunch. I see you eating my sandwich, sitting casually at the table you forced me to leave. Yes, you are an expert. I should have used the knife!

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-11-24 10:27:42

Try to recall something about the 70’s besides the BeeGee’s people.

No need to besmirch the Bee Gees!

 
Comment by Mugsy
2009-11-25 03:50:59

Is Lake Erie still burning?

 
 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 08:48:05

Good post with some good points, and my comments.

tremendous progress has been made reducing pollution in the US.

True, in US yes. The boomers learned to offshore our pollution. But is the world thanking our boomers?

Now, if you tell me that the very air I exhale is the biggest single danger to this little globe

Just because it also comes out of us does not mean that too much of it is a good thing. I can think of other examples.

People are not angry about good stewardship of the garden we live in

Some are.

Next you tell me that you have to tax the things I do by nature in order to save me,

In Brazil, sales tax is about 40%. People have much less stuff. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, it just is. How would the environment be affected if Americans bought much less stuff?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 08:58:48

I didn’t wish the people in places like China to $hit their own beds. I am appalled at their stupidity in that regard. It isn’t possible for me to make them do such things.

On the tax argument, I never expected a “taxes are good for you” response and cannot even wrap my mind around it. Kind of like; it’s good that you lost your leg, now you’re using less shoe leather.

If you think I am all for more useless crap in the world, you’ve got me wrong.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 09:29:27

On the tax argument, I never expected a “taxes are good for you” response and cannot even wrap my mind around it.

You can’t wrap it because it wasn’t said: Quote “ I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, it just is.

What was implied is that a tax policy can have different effects whether intended or not.

I personally don’t know how to feel about a bad tax that has a positive result.

 
Comment by Al
2009-11-24 09:52:22

Rio,

Is the 40% sales tax on everything? Food? Services?

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 09:58:15

Rio, it was the next line that I thought looped back on the taxes are good for you theme.

“How would the environment be affected if Americans bought much less stuff?”

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 10:36:12

Is the 40% (Brazil) sales tax on everything? Food? Services?

It’s complicated in a typical Brazilian way: ICMS — (Taxes on Goods and Services) While there is no sales tax per se in Brazil, every manufacturer, distributor, retailer or provider of almost every type of merchandise or service pays the state ICMS and passes the cost along to the consumer.

Tax rates:
powdered chocolate 37.84%
gasoline 53.03%
rice 18.00%
pencil 36.19%
car (w/ 1.0 liter engine) 39.29%
bed sheet 37.51%
cookies 38.50%
books 16.72%
toys 41.98%
pasta/macaroni 21.52%
notebook (school) 36.19%
table 30.57%
coffee 36.52%
microwave oven 56.99%
footwear 37.37%
tomato sauce 36.66%
toilet paper 40.50%

And yes there is another tax on services as well.

Source: http://www.deltatranslator.com/taxes.htm

 
Comment by Al
2009-11-24 11:58:40

“It’s complicated in a typical Brazilian way: ICMS ”

Almost sorry I asked. :)

Low taxes on rice and books. High on microwaves and gas. Interesting. There’s no doubt they’re using tax rates to encourage/discourage spending in some areas. Some oddities though. High rates on TP & school notebooks.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 12:17:21

they’re (Brazil) using tax rates to encourage/discourage spending in some areas.

Yes, and they also use very high import duties as policy to protect Brazilian manufacturing.

Stuff here is expensive but jobs are protected. That is one of the reasons why Brazil has shrugged off the global crisis better than most.

I’m a born in the USA American who lives in Brazil. I’ve seen the result of a cheap stuff/jobs outsourced policy and an expensive stuff/jobs kept policy.

I think the USA went too far too fast in our policy of giving away the farm in order to buy cheap microwave ovens.

 
 
Comment by Sleepr Cell
2009-11-24 15:47:50

“The problem isn’t the nature of the individual elements, it’s simply the sheer amounts that will get you.”

Exactly!!!

Saying that ‘Look! those damm scientists and busy bodies are saying that fire, farts and the breath we exhale is all of a sudden “bad” and “evil” is a stupid and transparent straw man argument. CO2 is just a simple molecule. It has a place in the biosphere as all things do. It’s all “natural” in that sense. However, massive additional ammounts of it could very well throw things severely out of wack and it’s tantamount to runing a gigantic uncontrolled experiment on the entire biosphere. There is no ‘other earth’ Whatever your personal stand on this issue may be you have to recognize that one simple fact. We are making HUGE changes to the fundemental systems that support life on this planet. Maybe it will turn out to not be that big a deal but ask yourself. IS THAT A RISK YOU ARE WILLING TO TAKE?!!!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 07:47:59

Pollution is different from greenhouse gases. Fossil fuel, especially coal, is contaminated with other elements. When they burn, they give off dirty SOX, NOX, mercury, soot, CO, and other stuff. Pollution like this has direct health effects on humans. Most of that pollution has been highly regulated.

Excess CO2 doesn’t cause any direct health effects, and so, as usual, nobody wants to do anything about it, because that costs money NOW.

The Dems are using global warming as a mechanism to switch from fossil fuels to renewable fuels. We need to switch anyway, if only because of peak oil. But again, nobody wants to put up the capital investment. If you thought individual families didn’t save for the future…corporations are THE WORST when it comes to living hand-to-mouth.

Comment by Asparagus
2009-11-24 08:06:59

Oxide! yes!

Climate change vs. pollution. A huge, important distinction.

Everyone argues about climate change; no one argues about pollution (at least no one I’ve ever met). As far as I can tell, there is not much opposition to the idea that pollution is causing extensive damage and needs to be addressed, be it fertilizer run-off, mercury, etc, etc…..

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 08:20:54

Why thank you. Would you like a cigarette? :twisted:

 
Comment by Asparagus
2009-11-24 09:04:08

I feel used.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-11-24 09:50:50

As far as I can tell, there is not much opposition to the idea that pollution is causing extensive damage and needs to be addressed, be it fertilizer run-off, mercury, etc, etc…..

What?

My agribusiness has a God-given right to foul the watershed with pesticide runoff, just as my factory has a divine right to emit as many air- and water-borne contaminants as I see fit. Corporations come first, not living organisms.

 
Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 10:20:05

sorry :sad: didn’t mean it that way.

 
 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 09:43:38

Pollution is different from greenhouse gases.

They are different but they are joined at the hip.

I’m wondering, if we reduced greenhouse gasses 50% how much would that reduce air pollution? 20%? 80%?

Would not anything in between be worth the effort?

And if so, I do think the call to arms should be reducing air-pollution. It’s a much more appealing banner.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by james
2009-11-24 15:25:47

The Dems are using global warming as a mechanism to switch from fossil fuels to renewable fuels

While I might agree with trying to get away from using oil; it’s stupid to get away from using coal which can supply cheap safe energy for a couple hundred years or so. That on top of the couple hundred years of natural gas that we noticed laying around. And on top of all the new oil reserves we’ve discovered.

Think wind/tidal/wave/hydroelectric also have plenty of potential as well as being reuseable.

I’m not particularly willing to give up on atomic energy either. Pretty much proven safe as well.

Peak oil hasn’t been shown yet either. I don’t think anyone around here has enough information on the ground to tell us what is going on. We just hear rumors.

The amount of economic damage from going after pure renewable sources will be really huge though. We can’t be paying 1$ per kWh while China is paying .02$ kWh. It’s not going to work.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-11-24 09:15:34

Rio …You have a great point . Why not try to keep pollution down .Look at how bad the air got in China .It doesn’t matter if Global Warming is true or not ,Pollution sucks .Pollution of the water sources
is a great evil as well as the lands . The Greed Machine doesn’t care if it poisons the World ,so they have to be controlled or regulated ,which no doubt adds costs to production .

Also ,why not try to conserve energy ,even if we have a amble supply for years .
I remember when I was young energy and water was so cheap that people just abused it . I use to know people that kept their air conditioning on all day long just so it would be cool when they got home from work ,or people who had every light in the house on
all the time . Waste isn’t a good thing in terms of saving for the future generations or curbing pollution in the now .

I’m sure there is no way of registering some of the side affects of
abuse of natural resources . Just because the Scientific Community hasn’t been able to prove something doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be a “Black Swan Build Up” that could push something into
a danger zone given enough time .We can’t act like the possibility
isn’t there .There has been times in history where a natural event set the world into a unbalanced state ,and human abuse could reach that critical point also .

Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 10:25:33

I saw a PBS show on this. the hypothesis was that there was a belt of pollution in the atmosphere that traveled from the US to Africa. The pollution pushed the seasonal rainfall away from its usual pattern, which caused the drought and famine in Ethiopia in the 80’s. When the pollution was offshored (along with the jobs), the rainfall returned to normal, and Ethiopia is recovering.

btw, I read that huge dust storms have been spotted in China. As bad as the Dust Bowl in the 30’s.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by packman
2009-11-24 11:00:14

OK got to call complete BS on that. The trade winds north of the equator go from east to west - away from Africa to the U.S., not from the U.S. to Africa.

I suppose hypothetically the pollution could travel around the world and go to Ethiopia across the Pacific, across SE Asia and the Indian ocean to get to Ethiopia. But:

- By the time that happened the pollution would be gone - fallen as rain.

- Why all of the sudden in the 80’s, and not before then when pollution was much worse?

Complete fearmongering BS.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 11:16:50

By the time that happened the pollution would be gone - fallen as rain.

Whewww, That’s a relief! I was worried for a second there.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 11:24:33

“btw, I read that huge dust storms have been spotted in China. As bad as the Dust Bowl in the 30’s.”

So the Depression was caused by global warming. Quick someone call the Goracle and tell him he has a sequel to produce.

 
Comment by packman
2009-11-24 11:25:04

Rio - I’m not even remotely attempting to paint pollution as not being bad. I’m just pointing out how any statement that the U.S.’s pollution caused the 1980’s Ethiopian drought is ludicrous.

 
Comment by packman
2009-11-24 11:27:20

“btw, I read that huge dust storms have been spotted in China. As bad as the Dust Bowl in the 30’s.”

So the Depression was caused by global warming. Quick someone call the Goracle and tell him he has a sequel to produce.

I just figured out the next bubble. Thanks to the blogs and message boards - the next bubble is most definitely straw men.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 12:26:14

China has pollution.

That pollution is caused by EEEEvil greenhouse gases.

China is experiencing dust storms like seen in 1930s America thanks to the EEEEvil greenhouse gases.

Therefore it is safe to conclude that the 1930s dust bowls which caused the Depression were the result of EEEEEvil greenhouse gases.

Can I get a job with the Goracle’s film production company? I think I can make a nice 90 minute PowerPoint presentation out of that.

 
Comment by DD
2009-11-24 18:24:25

ed you must be a hoot to hang around. A constant put-down.

 
 
 
 
Comment by measton
2009-11-24 08:58:25

This is an enormous case of organized scientific fraud, but it is not just scientific fraud. It is also a criminal act

Sounds to me like the beginnings of a plan to burn books and kill intellectuals and scientists. Criminal act really?? You guys are f’n insane.

Remember that Exxon has financed it’s own propaganda uh I mean science just like the tobacco companies did.

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 09:53:08

Oh for crying out loud, if the ‘idea’ was to “get the word out” ( I think… we’ve heard that? ) We’ve given that ‘community’ more latitude than HS “class project”.

Give us conclusions we can use/aspire to or..?

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 12:32:44

“Consider the simple fact, drawn from the official temperature records of the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, that for the years 1998-2005 global average temperature did not increase (there was actually a slight decrease, though not at a rate that differs significantly from zero).”

So the good people of East Anglia U are fraudsters then?

 
Comment by james
2009-11-24 15:17:01

OK.

So which group has actually just been caught in the middle of lying to us?

Just for a minute take your zealot hat off and try thinking about all of this.

Wouldn’t it be weird if Exxon turned out to be the group telling the truth all along?

Weird eh?

 
 
 
Comment by Lip
2009-11-24 06:54:49

The Fix Is In

“For more than a decade, we’ve been told that there is a scientific “consensus” that humans are causing global warming, that “the debate is over” and all “legitimate” scientists acknowledge the truth of global warming. Now we know what this “consensus” really means. What it means is: the fix is in.

This is an enormous case of organized scientific fraud, but it is not just scientific fraud. It is also a criminal act. Suborned by billions of taxpayer dollars devoted to climate research, dozens of prominent scientists have established a criminal racket in which they seek government money-Phil Jones has raked in a total of £13.7 million in grants from the British government-which they then use to falsify data and defraud the taxpayers”

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/the_fix_is_in_99280.html

Is it possible that its all about getting next year’s grant money?

Comment by MrBubble
2009-11-24 11:23:52

“Is it possible that its all about getting next year’s grant money?”

No. Next!

 
 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 07:06:34

It’s getting dark in here.

Animated map of US unemployment since 2007.

Linky

Comment by arizonadude
2009-11-24 07:58:23

Cool map.It looks like those people in the midwest survived pretty well.I guess they live within their means.

Comment by packman
2009-11-24 08:13:11

People need food.

(note - most people consider Ohio, Indiana, etc. to be the midwest - not Kansas, Nebraska, etc.)

Comment by arizonadude
2009-11-24 08:35:48

Sorry, too much JD for breakfast today.I just got a copy of newsweek with sarah palin, not focused.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DennisN
2009-11-24 09:52:56

Too much JD? You ate a lawyer for breakfast?

 
 
Comment by Skip
2009-11-24 09:01:17

Cleveland is 350 miles from Washington DC. I can’t believe anyone thinks Cleveland is in the Midwest.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 09:53:54

Midwest = Old West, what was west before we knew how west West was. Formerly all that was west of the Appalacian mountains. If you didn’t force it to whole states, Buffalo and Pittsburgh are in.

 
Comment by Skip
2009-11-24 10:42:26

I guess if you really want to go back to the 1680s…

 
Comment by packman
2009-11-24 11:04:26

Just so we’re on the same page - yes Ohio is and has always been considered part of the midwest.

Officially (and currently) even - per the U.S. Census Bureau.

Sorry Skip

 
Comment by CincyDad
2009-11-24 11:12:02

Yes, Ohioans consider ourselves definetly Midwestern, not East. Buffalo, Pittsburg, even Syracuse should be considered Midwest as well, except people go by state lines.

That’s why I always consider this part of the country as the “Industrial Midwest”, as opposed to the agricultural Great Plains. Or you can call us ‘the Great Lakes region”.

But Ohio is definetly the Midwest.

 
Comment by packman
2009-11-24 11:28:58

“Industrial Midwest”

a.k.a. Rust Belt.

:razz:

Actually - I was surprised from that link to find that Nebraska and Kansas were considered to be part of the midwest - I’ve never thought of them as being so.

 
Comment by packman
2009-11-24 11:30:17

(and the Dakotas)

 
Comment by Cowtown
2009-11-24 13:40:01

Kansas is somewhat schizophrenic regarding regional identity. It’s partly midwest, partly southwest, and partly Wild West.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 14:34:30

Kansas is somewhat schizophrenic regarding regional identity. It’s partly midwest, partly southwest, and partly Wild West.

So true. It is one of our more interesting states in that regard. It is also partly southern or at least border-state.

“Bleeding Kansas” is where the Civil War had its dress rehearsal as a battle (simply put) between Kansas free-state backers and the pro-slavery border ruffians of Missouri, a border-state. Almost 200 men women and children were killed in this guerrilla war.

The Kansas/Missouri University rivalry is unique in America as it represents the only two states that were at war with one another outside of the actual Civil War.

Kansans are more independent than most realize. Kansas and Maine had the highest percentage of Perot voters in his first run.

The majority of Kansans will listen or at least pretend to listen to opposite points of view if put to them in a rational manner.

 
 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-11-24 08:19:23

Ummm, look a little closer. I think the area you’re referring to is known as the Great Plains - not the Midwest. At least we know the Jackalope population is fully employed.

Very dramatic presentation!

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 09:56:20

edge,

Thanks, even though I’ve lived in Oregon for almost 30 years I always try to remind people that at one time IL, WI, and MN were referred to as “The Great Northwest” ( we’re uh… The ‘Pacific’ Northwest )?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DennisN
2009-11-24 11:17:15

It always cracked me up to find that “Northwestern University” is near Chicago.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 13:20:38

The town of Northeast is at the northwestern tip of PA. Go figure.

 
 
Comment by In Montana
2009-11-24 10:00:29

What, the Midwest and Great Plains are different? Nebraska isn’t in the Midwest?

I need to get out more…

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 10:08:33

Omaha definitely, Lincoln maybe, get west of there, doubt it. Same diff w/ PA. Try telling Pittsburgh natives that their attitudes and values are the same as those at the opposite end of the state in Philly?

It’s never been as simple as East Coast/WestCoast/Midwest. That’s of MSM manufacture. It makes things nice and simple for them and fits their USAToday-level graphs much more neatly.

 
Comment by iowa
2009-11-24 10:36:41

IMO.

East of Indiana
West of Colorado
North of Arkansas

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-11-24 11:55:13

The Midwest transitions to the Great Plains at some point in NE. DinOR is right in that Omaha would likely serve as a good reference point for that transition.

But that’s a mere trifling detail - that map gets a lot scarier when it is viewed next to a map of U.S. population density.

Google up a population density map and compare the two. Those purple and gray areas are home to the vast majority of people.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Muggy
2009-11-24 07:12:31

X-Philly, IIRC you were thinking about buying/renting in Clearwater, yes?

I’m around this week, so feel free to ask away. As I said before there are some dangerous neighborhoods and some really nice ones.

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 07:19:33

Yes - BF wants to take nephews to spring training. We wanted to rent a house instead of a hotel ’cause the nephews will probably want to bring a friend. Are accidental LLs renting houses to tourists?

Comment by Muggy
2009-11-24 12:52:41

Are accidental LLs renting houses to tourists?”

Yes, but those are typically found by driving around and calling numbers off of signs — craigslist/mls does not really represent inventory around here.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 07:14:46

U.S. Economy Expanded at a 2.8% Rate in Third Quarter (Update1)

Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) — The U.S. economy expanded at a 2.8 percent annual rate in the third quarter, less than the government reported last month, reflecting a smaller gain in consumer spending and a bigger trade deficit.

The increase in gross domestic product from July through September reported today by the Commerce Department in Washington compares with a 3.5 percent gain previously estimated. Corporate profits climbed by the most in five years.

Smaller increases in spending show the U.S. was dependent on government stimulus programs to help dig the world’s largest economy out of its worst recession since the 1930s. Growing profits lifted purchases of equipment and software, indicating investment by companies such as Verizon Communications Inc. will help make up for smaller gains in household purchases as unemployment mounts.

“We expect profits to continue climbing this quarter as GDP rises further,” Joseph Brusuelas, a director at Moody’s Economy.com in West Chester, Pennsylvania, said before the report. “This will add momentum to the recovery by motivating firms to expand and hire again early next year.”

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-11-24 07:52:22

“Corporate profits climbed by the most in five years.”

Let’s provide a little context to this statement, shall we:

U3 = 10.2% U6 = 17.5%

There, that’s better.

 
 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 07:17:33

Sarah Palin’s supporters rock the parking lot.

Linky

Kind of scary, in a fun way…

Comment by exeter
2009-11-24 07:47:10

I can see the moon from my house…….

I’m an astronaut!!

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 08:04:29

Kind of scary, in a fun way…

I’d love to see this same crew interview a bunch of Obama supporters.

 
Comment by shelby
2009-11-24 08:12:07

Yawn, scratch, fart………….

 
Comment by exeter
2009-11-24 08:17:11

Oh my word I just watched it. Hilarious…. what a cast of idiots. err… uhhh…. duhh…. ummm…. i dunno.. errr…

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2009-11-24 16:40:07

Sadly, those are fairly typical Americans. Our gene pool needs some serious work.

 
 
Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 08:40:01

The guy at 0:37 (in the Steelers jacket) is the best.

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 09:50:00

You guys realize you’re having a little ‘lovefest’ of your own, right?

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 10:07:20

D-
here’s a piece by a Berkley woman whose eyes opened to the reality that the Left is not her friend: The Wilding of SP

What else should have tipped me off? Perhaps the fact that so many men in ultra left Berkeley are sleaze bags. Rarely a week goes by that I don’t hear stories from my young female clients about middle aged men preying on them. With the rationale of moral relativism, these creeps feel they can do anything they please.

What finally woke me up were the utterances of b*tch, witch, and monster toward Hillary Clinton and her supporters early last year. I was shocked into reality: the trash talk wasn’t coming from conservatives but from male and female liberals.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 11:36:54

X-Philly,

Thanks for sharing that. You should SEE the cr@p that winds up in Michelle M@lkin’s “hate mail”. ( The constant r@pe/”teabagging” fantasies being played out there on a daily basis are -not- to be believed! )

She only posts but a tiny fraction of it and turns the balance over to law enforcement ( where presumably these scumbags are routed to the appropriate mental institution ) I’ve had it! It’s like they didn’t have a mother?

Please spare us the standard “But ’she’ had it coming!” ( snicker, sniker ) responses. More typical dehumanizing your target. I guess if you can’t debate based on facts, roll out the teabags?

 
Comment by Lip
2009-11-24 12:01:50

x-philly,

Powerful article.

Regarding Palin, my favorite part of the Hannity interview was someone asked her dad if he thought the storm swirling around her would cause her to quit. His reply was no, she was quiet because she was “reloading”.

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 13:26:52

I don’t read this piece as a defense of women. I read it as a political screed that serves the same purpose that the writer suggests is being used against Palin. Couldn’t she have made the same point with Oprah as her subject? I guess that wouldn’t have the same intended affect.

 
Comment by exeter
2009-11-24 13:29:13

Reloading= another “I quit” moment like her illustrious governship.

 
Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 14:20:30

sleepless -
I don’t think she could have used Oprah as the subject, because Oprah has been a subject of quasi-deification rather than dehumanization. One imagines that in the course of Oprah’s career, slurs have been levelled against her. But not to the extent and with the ferocity that the abuse was heaped on Palin and her family.

The larger point is that the left claimed ownership of the feminist agenda, but shows its true colors by the full frontal attack on females it wants out of the political way - and that includes HRC.

Political screed - don’t know if I would define it as such. The writer obviously has an agenda, as a disaffected lefty she has found a forum on a conservative website. That doesn’t make violence-inspired slanders against female candidates any the less despicable.

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 15:43:09

I get it, philly. I’m not dismissing her premise, although I think she (like all political pieces) paint with a very broad brush. I was coming from the position of Oprah as a BO supporter. Lots of vitriol over her support. I do agree that attacks of that nature only come from those who can’t debate the relevant issues.

My comments here were also driven by her commenters. Not one of them disagreed with her, which I shouldn’t find surprising given the website. I submitted my “can’t-we-all-just-get-along” comments over 2 hours ago and they haven’t been posted. It seems they aren’t looking for dialog, they are looking for partisans. Lame.

I guess I am naively disappointed in thinking we can do better.

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 16:48:38

Philly, I responded awhile ago but hasn’t shown up. Mainly I used Oprah due to vitriol that came her way due to her support of BO.

She doesn’t need to go the partisan route to make her point but does. There are two separate issues that she tries to cast off as one. I submitted a comment that didn’t get posted, presumably for questioning why this is a partisan issue while most of the other posts are quite in agreement. And not necessarily that a woman is being attacked, but that its the darn “liberals” that have a problem.

Read the comments at 2:45 and 2:46 . They seem to get that:
1. This isn’t just a “liberal” issue.
2. She’s not (necessarily) being attacked for being a woman.

I guess I’m naive in wanting non-partisan dialogue.

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 16:49:40

and of course now it shows up….

 
Comment by X-philly
2009-11-25 08:30:41

It’s OK baby I do like your taste in cars…

 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 09:14:14

I would venture to say that no matter were they dem or repub. you’d get about the same response from the average voter. Most folks really don’t know what they are voting for, and if they do the politicians will screw them anyway.

Some in that clip remind me of the poor idiot girl in Fla. that was so excited that once Obama was elected she would no longer have to pay her mortgage, light and gas bills! Need a link to that clip. The depth of ignorance is far and wide.

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 10:14:38

It’s Messiah/HopenChange Part Deux!

First the Browns, now these folks. I try hard to be proud of my native state, I really do…

Comment by iowa
2009-11-24 11:13:30

Yup, Palin is right wingers’ Obama.

That’s why right loves her.
That’s why left hates her.

Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 12:44:12

Yup, Palin is right wingers’ Obama.

More like the right winger’s Barbra Streisand.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by iowa
2009-11-24 13:22:56

No, she’s Obama. Easy on the eyes. Heavy on style and low on substance. Not to mention clueless as hell.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-11-24 17:21:28

Sarah “The Barracuda” & Jeb Shrub in 2012! ;-)

(Hwy sends yet another postcard to God)

Comment by Eddie
2009-11-24 18:20:53

I used to be of the opinion that I wanted nothing to do with Palin. But given how crazy she drives the kool-aid guzzlers, I may just vote for her in the primaries. She’d be a disaster I’m sure. But the shock on the face of the left would be worth it. Just to have Chris Matthews say President Palin for 4 years would be worth the price of admission.

The country is doomed to destruction in the next 10-20 years. Might as well have some fun before the end.

 
 
 
Comment by cougar91
2009-11-24 07:43:54

This is one reason that makes me hesitant about gold: it’s in so much demand now banks are running out of vaults to store them.

A Mad Rush as Gold Bugs Get the Boot
WSJ - 11/24/2009

Fleets of armored trucks piled with gold bars and coins have been streaming out of midtown Manhattan in one unexpected consequence of the gold craze.

Amid gold’s rise — it has gained 32% this year and reached a record on Monday — investors have been loading up on bullion and coins. One big problem now is where to store it. The solution from HSBC, owner of one of the biggest vaults in the U.S.: somewhere else.

HSBC has told retail clients to remove their small holdings from its fortress beneath its tower on New York City’s Fifth Avenue. The bank has decided retail customers aren’t profitable enough and is demanding those clients remove their gold to make room for more lucrative institutional customers.

An HSBC spokeswoman said the firm doesn’t comment on its vault due to “security concerns.”

HSBC’s decision has created a logistical nightmare for both the investors and the security teams in charge of relocating the gold, silver and platinum to new vaults across the country. Many of those vaults are also feeling pressure from the surge in demand for space from clients that have stocked up on metal.

Investors have been loading up on gold this year amid worries about inflation and the stability of the U.S. dollar. The metal gained $17.90, or 1.6%, to $1164.30 an ounce on Monday. As gold has continued to set new records, other investors have flooded in. Many of them are taking possession of the metal, rather than just trading financial contracts linked to it.

Demand for physical gold, including bars and coins, is projected to rise 21% this year to 52.3 million troy ounces, the highest in history, according to CPM Group. Based on today’s price, the total value would amount to about $61 billion.

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-11-24 09:45:43

I wonder what these institutional investors will do if at some point in the future they find cash in short supply.

 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-11-24 16:04:34

They are more than welcome to store it in my apartment!

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 07:49:08

Goldman’s secret moral pathology
15 symptoms of a Wall Street disease destroying democracy and capitalism. ~ Paul B. Farrell, MarketWatch

(MarketWatch) — In “The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism” Jack Bogle no longer sees Adam Smith’s “invisible hand” driving “capitalism in a healthy, positive direction.”

Today, his “Happy Conspiracy” of Wall Street plus co-conspirators in Washington and Corporate America are spreading a contagious “pathological mutation of capitalism” driven by the new “invisible hands” of this new “mutant capitalism,” serving their selfish agenda in a war to totally control America’s democracy and capitalism.
Fund statistics hoodwink consumers

MarketWatch’s Chuck Jaffe reveals the statistics that are used against consumers by the mutual funds industry.

The “Goldman Conspiracy” is the perfect B-school case study of Wall Street’s secret contagious pathology, with insiders like Lloyd Blankfein, Henry Paulson and others pocketing billions more of the firm’s profits than shareholders, evidence the new “mutant capitalism” has replaced Adam Smith’s 1776 version which historically endowed the soul of American democracy as well as our capitalistic system.

Sadly for America Goldman’s disease is rapidly becoming a pandemic spreading beyond Wall Street’s too-greedy-to-fail banks, infecting our economy, markets and government as it metastasizes globally.

What are the symptoms of this growing “soul sickness,” this “pathological mutation of capitalism” Bogle fears? Recently we reviewed the consequences of this “soul sickness.”

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/15-signs-wall-street-pathology-is-spreading-2009-11-24

Comment by measton
2009-11-24 09:15:59

OK we agree on the problem, now what is the solution. Their are onlly two solutions in my book, one is that the people regain control of our gov and break up TBTF and regulate the financial industry. The other would require waiting for a complete collapse and requires pitchforks, tar, and feathers. Of course after the collapse the thieves will be gone or will wall themselves off from society with Blackwater security to keep them safe.

Comment by measton
2009-11-24 09:40:02

OK we agree on the problem, now what is the solution? There are only two solutions in my book, one is that the people regain control of our gov and break up TBTF and regulate the financial industry. The other would require waiting for a complete collapse and requires pitchforks, tar, and feathers. Of course after the collapse the thieves will be gone or will wall themselves off from society with Blackwater security to keep them safe.

Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2009-11-24 15:04:35

OK we agree on the problem, now what is the solution?

I think:
1. Everyone should be able to vote in every primary regardless of their party because it would elect more moderate candidates better representing the people.

Just because someone’s party loses doesn’t mean they should have to put up with a nutball wacko from the left or the right.

2. Term limits/Serious campaign finance reform. It can be done.

3. One cycle of the public voting every incumbent out of office.

4. Mass defections of the Democrat or Republican parties.

5. People waking up. Activism. Finding common ground as Americans. People fighting the clear and present danger and not each other.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-11-24 10:21:23

wmbz …….I like the article you have posted and it supports what I have been saying all along .

The Highlights :

(1) The pay-outs that Goldman got from AIG did save it from BK or being seriously compromised .
(2) Goldmans and others were responsible in large part for the sub-prime highly leveraged markets (rather than Fred and Fannie )
(3) Paulson no doubt was in a Conflict of Interest position regarding
GS when Tarp Bail Outs occurred . The article points to the concept that GS would of been held highly responsible for their role ,and I have said all along that I felt that many of the bail-outs were to prevent lawsuits and certain parties being liable and maybe loosing their personal gains .
(4) “49 million Americans don”t have enough food “.It continues that Main Street is paying for the financial meltdown rather than the very culprits that created the schemes that crashed .
(5) Article confirms the degree of influence that Wall Street (Goldman ) has on American policy these days and the contortion that Wall Streets health is the USA Health ( when it really isn’t ).

So, when Hank Paulson said in essence that Tarp was needed to avoid a financial meltdown for Main Street ,what was the real truth
was that he meant that his prior Company needed to be saved or all hell was going to come down on his former Firm .

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 11:45:45

“(2) Goldmans and others were responsible in large part for the sub-prime highly leveraged markets (rather than Fred and Fannie )”

When will the subprime mortgage lending kingpins of Wall Street get implicated and prosecuted for their roles in causing the housing crisis?

Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-11-24 14:43:45

PB…..This BS that they try to say the sole cause was the government mandates that banks were forced into giving toxic
faulty loans is a big lie and Wall Streets ponzi scheme was the biggest cause ,that they want to hide . At the time Freddie and Fannie were conservative compared to the Wall Street lending
machine . The fact that they transferred a bunch of bad paper
made by Wall Street to the books of F&F is a issue of what took place when . I have been watching the illusions they want the public to believe and it’s all about trying to blame the meltdown on
some Government Principal that had good faith at heart ,when it was the opposite .

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 15:02:04

“At the time Freddie and Fannie were conservative compared to the Wall Street lending machine.”

How the GSEs were transformed from stable, conservative institutions into high-risk gamblers is a story which remains to be fully told. The idea that nobody should go to jail for the steps in this transformation seems highly questionable.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 15:03:45

P.S. Sorry I suggested the possibility of criminal acts in connection to the GSE collapse, or any other facet of the Wall Street meltdown. We are in a never-ending financial crisis, and all of our attention has to focus on how to end the crisis. There is no time to pay any attention to what laws were broken by which top scam artists in the banking system.

 
 
 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 17:03:16

As I’ve said, they knew.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 07:53:29

Holy cow — even stopped clock real estate bears are saying it is a good time to buy now. I guess Rosen believes Dough-4-Dumps, ongoing Fed MBS purchases, FHA guarantees, double-digit unemployment and a slow dollar crash add up to sustainable residential real estate recovery? I am starting to feel like a very lonely bear.

Perhaps now is the best time to buy, just like the UHS always say? Never mind that we never yet heard consensus that, “Real estate is the worst possible investment.”

It’s a good time to buy

Noted University of California real-estate economist Ken Rosen tells Stacey Delo that several factors make coming months an optimal time to jump into the housing market.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 07:57:19

Rosen “knows” prices have bottomed. He seems to not “know” that prices are still too high.

Let’s look back at Ken’s prediction next Thanksgiving and ask whether he called the bottom right for the $500,000+ Coastal CA market. I think not.

Comment by arizonadude
2009-11-24 08:38:53

It’s always a great time to buy california real estate.Ask those folks in riverside county, or stockton how it worked out for them.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 07:58:54

I guess it is good to bear in mind that Ken Rosen runs a REIT, and nobody in their right mind would buy into a REIT if they thought prices had further to fall.

Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 10:02:08

PB,

“I” have bought into REIT’s over the course of ‘09 and actually I’ve managed to do quite well.

NOW… there’s a great deal of difference between believing that “the fundamentals are sound” ( and working a ‘trade’ ) but the 2nd qtr. was the ‘best’ on record for for REIT’s.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 10:31:24

I honestly don’t think it is a bad time for a well-informed investor (e.g. a REIT manager) to dabble in residential real estate, given the obvious opportunities offered by the grinding foreclosure crisis.

But that is a long way from suggesting (as Rosen does) that it is a good time for individual households to buy homes. Let’s just be straightforward here: A home purchase at this point in time (at least in high-price markets like coastal CA) is a gamble on the ability of the financial engineers at the Fed and other Washington economics shops to succeed in their efforts to prematurely establish a bottom in real estate prices and restart home price inflation.

Given their utter inability to foresee the portion of the real estate crash which has already played out (2006-2009), I personally lack faith in their social-financial engineering skills. But if you are a householder who believes in the efficacy and likely success of this social engineering exercise, then by all means, buy ten houses. There has never been a better time for bullish gamblers to invest in residential RE!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 10:34:06

P.S. If you have spare dough right now, buying into a well-managed REIT which is heavily invested in a market where you might want to eventually purchase a home might not be a bad hedging strategy. If “greater than expected” home price inflation materializes, you can fund your future downpayment out of “larger than expected” REIT gains.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 11:55:41

Professor Bear,

What an excellent strategy! One I’d never really considered but it makes absolute sense! And, it’s just possible it could play out to your advantage -either- way?

Home prices continue… to tumble in a free fall ( and personally I think they ‘will’ ) and your REIT continues to merely regain a portion of it’s former high’s!

Whatever the outcome, I’m more comfortable dumping the position w/ the click of a mouse, vice plopping a For Sale sign in the front yard and hoping for the best?

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-11-24 12:34:41

It’s sort of like buying bare land where you eventually want to live, without the non-liquidity drawbacks of that scheme.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 13:11:28

I might pursue this REIT strategy myself going forward, once my current dollar hedge seems to have topped off on its runup. (I don’t anticipate this happening any time soon, thanks to the Fed’s recent decision to hold rates down for the indefinite future…)

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 08:48:28

“It’s a good time to buy”

I feel a wave of revulsion rising in my gut over a tenured Berkeley professor using the same line that armies of UHS use to try to lure their unsuspecting victims into financially hanging themselves by purchasing homes they cannot afford. What is wrong with the economics “profession”? Pardon me while I excuse myself to puke into the toilet.

 
 
Comment by oxide
2009-11-24 07:53:53

I just repeat something I read late in yesterday’s thread. When developers build a new subdivision, they scrape off all the topsoil and sell it before building the houses. I was stunned to read this, but I shouldn’t have been. Whenever I saw lots of bulldozers pushing dirt around before building, I thought they were just putting in sewer pipes. I guess not. They were scraping the poor land. Somebody called it “Potemkin villages,” and wow is that right.

Depressing. Yet another reason to not buy anything built before… maybe 1985?

Comment by DennisN
2009-11-24 08:08:03

It’s not as bad as you might think. Both house foundations and roads/sidewalks/driveways work out better with prepared soils rather than topsoil. The trick is that honest developers will bring back in topsoil to backfill the lawn and garden areas left over once the houses are built.

It sounds funny but the lawn/garden area in a typical subdivision is only about 20% of the acreage.

Comment by Watching the Carnage
2009-11-24 20:38:42

DennisN,

Thanks - I love this site. That makes perfect sense…I had long thought that topsoil scraping was a developer profit grab.

 
 
Comment by exeter
2009-11-24 08:29:28

Clearing and grubbing is a must if you want your structure to remain standing. All organic material must be excavated and stockpiled or exported if conditions are too tight or if utilization plans/contract docs require so.

Comment by arizonadude
2009-11-24 08:42:51

yes, organic material does not compact well and tends to decompose over time.One of my jobs as a kid was to walk along a road we built picking up roots and sticks and tossing them out of the road so they did not get compacted.It was a boring ass job.I got my friend a job helping me and he lasted two days.Construction work is not for the faint of heart.

Comment by exeter
2009-11-24 09:03:01

We use excavators and tractor pans…. big ones like this.

http://www.uh.edu/engines/komatsupc300lc.jpg

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by cougar91
2009-11-24 12:15:38

Hey a link to my old school. :-)

 
 
 
 
Comment by wolfgirl
2009-11-24 08:32:24

No links,but I’ve read of this happening as far back as the 1950’s.

Comment by In Montana
2009-11-24 10:04:17

Well if the dirt movers don’t build up the site properly it can be disastrous for foundations.

But it sure wreaks havoc with the organic matter, so that the soil that’s left is pretty barren and needs lots of amendment.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 07:55:51

Ken Rosen: “Prices have bottomed.”

CLICK!

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 08:04:24

Is it going too far to say that the REIC is playing “full court press” at this point?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 08:18:08

As of this point in the last real estate bust (circa 1991, at the end of the recession), CA prices had another five years of declines ahead of them. I guess since Ken is an expert, he “knows” why it is different this time? Too bad he did not share any of his insights on that video clip.

Comment by palmetto
2009-11-24 08:29:23

The graph or chart below is my bible. Notice where we are in time right now and what the chart demonstrates. The false bottom is in, and right on schedule, according to this chart. The real fun (er, uh, massacre) begins just after New Year’s. I’m loving this. I’ll be raising my glass of bubbly this New Year’s Eve in a toast to Charles Hugh Smith.

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogaug06/post-bubble-symmetry.html

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 15:06:46

I wonder if Ken Rosen has seen that chart? I would love to hear him explain why he is right about a bottom being in place and Charles Hugh Smith is wrong.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-11-24 08:16:22

I recall reading (here too) that Foreclosures are counted as sales, when they fail to sell at the courthouse steps and go back to the bank as an REO. The sale price is recorded at the loan amt.(refi’s included), regardless of the actual neighborhood recent sale prices. I haven’t heard this in the MSM. With all the current record home sales hype, Im wondering why nobody is addressing this issue. I wish Meridith Whitney would confirm and clarify it. She does have credibility.

Comment by Dale
2009-11-24 10:07:30

…. Foreclosures are counted as sales…..

Does this mean that when they say sales are up, they really mean foreclosures are up?

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 11:43:51

My understanding (which might be incorrect) is that when a bank forecloses and takes back the home, they report the loan balance as a “sale price,” which gets averaged into the “home sales price” statistics reported monthly in the MSM. If true, this would tend to create a considerable upward bias in official home sales price statistics (NAR median sales price, Case-Shiller home sales price index, etc). I don’t have direct evidence on this point, but would like to get some if anyone has it…

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-11-24 12:40:25

PB-
Someone here posted a link to a San Diego radio station interview transcript (possbily you) a while ago. The “whistlerblower” was somebody credible, I just don’t remember his name. I saved a copy of it in my DataQuick (paper) file. I’ll track it down and see if I can link it here.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by awaiting wipeout
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-11-24 12:59:16

“And so what happens is, no one bids on it, the bank takes it back. That becomes what we call an REO, a real estate owned by the bank. The County Recorder’s office records that as a sale at $700,000.00.” (the amt of the loan)

It’s in the transcript.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 13:08:38

OK, guys, thanks — memory is slipping.

I think we should entertain the hypothesis that any official real estate statistics (potentially including DataQuick, NAR, Radar Logic and Case-Shiller numbers) which take “sales prices” as input without attempting to separate out data which are not true sales, but instead are bank repossessions, might be complete garbage for markets with a high percentage of bank repossessions in their “sales” data.

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-11-24 15:53:34

PB-
Sept. 3rd was a long time ago. If you remembered that, I’d be mighty impressed.

We all take in so much knowledge and information here, is it truly amazing.

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-11-24 15:55:30

“it is” - evidently, I need to proof read my posts.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 18:55:30

What do you all think will happen if it comes out in the MSM that almost all residential real estate sales price averages are subject to substantial upward bias because the analysts did not bother to clean their data of transactions which were not actually sales, but rather were bank repossessions, reported at a “price” equal to the outstanding balance of the loan? Is this a realistic possibility, or am I missing something here?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 18:59:52

Who would be held liable for the fraud if it turns out that “average sales price” statistics are heavily upward biased due to a failure of analysts to remove bank repossessions which are not actual sales before averaging?

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 08:16:27

market pulse

Nov. 24, 2009, 10:00 a.m. EST

FDIC: Number of troubled banks rises to 552

By Ronald D. Orol

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) - The number of distressed banks in the U.S. rose to the highest level in sixteen years, according to a report released by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. Tuesday. The FDIC said that the number of troubled banks rose to 552 at the end of September from 416 at the end of June and 305 at the end of March. This is the largest number of banks on its “problem list” since the end of 1993. Banks insured by the FDIC swung to a total quarterly profit of $2.8 billion, more than three times the $879 million they earned during the same period last year and significantly better than their combined $4.3 billion net loss in the second quarter of 2009. The FDIC reported that its Deposit Insurance Fund swung to an $8.2 billion loss, which the agency hopes will be made up by advance payments of $45 billion in fees.

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 08:55:18

Clear signs!

“Home prices rose slightly in September, the fourth straight monthly increase and a clear sign the housing market recovery is continuing.”

Link

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 08:56:20

What do China Banks have to do with US stock prices? I thought Asia had decoupled from the US?

* The Wall Street Journal
* TODAY’S MARKETS
* NOVEMBER 24, 2009, 10:06 A.M. ET

China Bank Fears Hurt Stocks

By DONNA KARDOS YESALAVICH

Stocks opened lower Tuesday, led by the energy and financial sectors as crude-oil futures fell and worries about the financial sector increased after China’s banking regulator warned the nation’s lenders to strictly comply with capital requirements or face sanctions.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average was down 73 points, or 0.7%, to 10373 recently. Boeing led the measure’s declines, dropping 2%. Hewlett-Packard was also among the measure’s worst performers, falling 1.3% despite the company reporting a 14% jump in quarterly profit. Investors were disappointed by H0P’s 8.4% drop in revenue in the quarter.

The technology-heavy Nasdaq Composite fell 0.7%. The Standard & Poor’s 500 declined 0.6%. Declines in its energy and financial sectors were offset by gains in its telecommunications and health-care categories.

The Commerce Department’s revisions to several of its third-quarter estimates damped sentiment Tuesday. The revisions showed lower gross domestic product and consumer spending and a wider trade deficit than previously estimated. However, that was offset in part by the fifth monthly increase in U.S. home prices in September, as well as a sequential rise in home prices in the third quarter, according to the S&P Case-Shiller home-prices indexes.

Crude was recently at $77.46 a barrel. Meanwhile, gold futures rose, the dollar gained against the euro, and 10-year Treasury notes were up 1/32 to yield 3.351%. The action follows a big Monday rally that had come as the dollar fell and crude-oil and gold futures rose.

“The market had a big advance yesterday, and in Asia they were talking about banks having to raise capital, so that’s weighing on sentiment,” said Kevin Kruszenski, national director of equity trading at KeyBanc Capital Markets. Still, he said, “the market also liked the Case-Shiller number. Any signs of stabilization, that’s certainly helping confidence.”

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 09:50:34

A bear has to love the stock market index movements on a day like today. It is like watching a seismographic needle while a magnitude 8.0+ earthquake is in progress.

 
 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-11-24 08:56:48

Link shows housing starts 1969 to Oct 2009

http://www.economagic.com/em-cgi/data.exe/feddal/hsm

I was under the impression that the largest run-up in US home building took place 2002 - 2006. Apparently 1971 - 1973 building craze was greater.

Also notable is the 2008 numbers drop into oblivion. When looking at these numbers, consider that housing related spend is (was) the largest single contributor to our GDP and we can get a sense of how desperate things must be.

Finally, who looks at these numbers and still believes that low mortgage/interest rates, foreclosure moratoriums, loan write-downs by the courts, 8K tax credits, and handing billions to the banks and financial sectors, and whatever else they throw at this will have any effect on the ultimate severity of housing crash or even how fast we get there?

Comment by packman
2009-11-24 11:15:41

Yep. Most people (including HBBer) don’t realize that the rate of homebuilding actually wasn’t *that* much higher during the bubble. We didn’t even set a record in nominal terms, let alone population-adjusted terms.

The main key was the length of time - housing starts rose fairly unabated from 1991 -> 2007. Even the recession of 2002 didn’t hurt housing starts much.

Even then though - if you look at it (will post a chart in a minute) - the volume of new housing building in this bubble wasn’t actually *that* much more than in previous housing booms, at all.

The difference to me is that this time there was a lot less real demand (i.e. non-speculator demand) than in previous housing booms. I think in general we’ve just been a lot worse off financially since the early 1980’s; so if housing starts had actually followed real demand (as determined in large part by affordability), they would have been continually slowly tailing off, not flat. So even though housing starts weren’t incredibly high in nominal terms - they were however incredibly high compared with actual demand.

Thus in the end we get what we have now - record vacancy rates.

Comment by packman
2009-11-24 11:21:21

Interesting graph - housing starts.

Note that the 2006 peak wasn’t close to a record, and the volume of the building during the bubble wasn’t significantly more than other bubbles - if you consider the bubble to be the area above the overall “average” of about 1550-1600.

Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-11-24 19:33:03

Nice visual of this data

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2009-11-24 13:08:03

But I’ll bet most of those early 70’s homes were modest, no frills, under 1500 sq ft houses.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 17:09:21

Yep. I helped build many of them in my area.

 
Comment by kmfdm rules
2009-11-24 18:56:47

Well that explains the use of aluminum wiring in houses built in the US during the early 70’s - due to all the building copper must have been in short supply so they used aluminum wiring on the 15 and 20 amp branch circuits. Many houses from that era catch fire due to the fact that aluminum expands much more than copper when heated which caused connections to fail and arc. Anyone who inspects a house from that era often recommends that all the switches and outlets be replaced with special ones that are made to handle aluminum wiring.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 19:10:41

That’s also one of the main reasons I will NEVER buy a house built in the 70s.

The other is cheap, often PVC, pipes and poor insulation.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Austin_Martin
2009-11-24 14:14:43

You should also look at the household formation rate.

70-71 sounds like about the time when all the baby boomers were moving out on their own.

Another thing to look at would be single family vs multiple family units. There could have been a whole lot of apartments/dorms built to accomodate a large increase in college students around that time as well.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 09:20:54

SEIU and city workers protest SF job cuts, layoffs.
San Francisco News

SAN FRANCISCO (KGO) — Driving in San Francisco on Monday night turned into a test of wills. City workers, protesting layoffs and job cuts, shut down roadways in all directions in the Downtown area.

“This is an action to get the attention of the mayor. We’ve tried every other way we can,” said Brenda Barros, a nursing assistant.

They started off within earshot of Mayor Gavin Newsom’s office. SEIU represents nursing assistants, clerical workers and other city employees. They say 500 jobs are on the line because of budget cuts.

At Market Street hundreds rallied on the sidewalks, while a small contingent gathered in the middle of the intersection surrounding a sign reading “We will not step back.”

Reportedly in the crowd were some of the very people whose job is to keep traffic moving.

ABC7 heard that some parking control officers are taking part in the demonstration. In response, Barros said “We represent all miscellaneous city employees, so there could be people from anywhere in the city in this demonstration.”

According to police, 18 people were arrested and cited for an infraction of obstructing traffic and then released.

On Tuesday, the action moves to City Hall where legislation sponsored by Supervisors John Avalos and Chris Daly will be debated. It would take money from the Department of Public Health to prevent the layoffs.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 17:11:55

I think they should keep their jobs… and get paid in IOUs. :lol:

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 09:41:07

Clear evidence that a US economic recovery is underway considerably weakens the case for continued punch bowl spiking by the Fed. The prospect of the Fed tightening “sooner than expected,” against their own loudly-announced preferences, should provide plenty of head wind to US stock prices next year.

But nonetheless, I suggest all buy the dips (especially the 10 percent correction variety). The stock market always goes up, in the long run.

Currencies
Nov. 24, 2009, 11:30 a.m. EST

Dollar gets a boost from string of U.S. economic data

* Dollar slumps as Fed official backs more stimulus (Nov. 23)
* Treasurys up before 5-year auction, FOMC minutes (9:10a)
* U.S. futures lightly trim rise after GDP data (9:17a)
* Ifo German business index highest in over a year (4:41a)

By Deborah Levine & Laura Mandaro, MarketWatch

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — The dollar edged higher against the euro and some other major rivals Tuesday as a string of U.S. economic reports showed lingering stresses on the consumer and financial sectors as well as some improvement in the outlook.

The dollar index (DXY 75.18, +0.10, +0.13%) rose to 75.171, up from 75.105 ahead of a pair of mid-morning economic releases and higher than 75.129 late Monday. The gauge measures the greenback against the euro, the Japanese yen, the British pound, the Swedish krona, the Canadian dollar and the Swiss franc.

The dollar held gains against the euro after the data, traded nearly flat with currencies from commodity-rich nations, and remained lower against the yen.

At mid-morning, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. said the number of distressed banks in the U.S. rose to the highest level in 16 years.

At the same time, the Conference Board said that its November sentiment survey showed consumers slightly more confident about the economic outlook but that their appraisal of short-term economic prospects glum. The reading beat economists’ expectations.

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-11-24 09:52:12

Just bought a 2010 Escape for the wifey… I can’t be a cheap bastard 24/7 — I figure this gets me about 3 more years until we *have* to buy a house.

Comment by Al
2009-11-24 09:56:16

hybrid?

 
Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 10:11:23

Good show - Is she loving it?

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 11:00:53

Saw your post yesterday about your Mariner. I think you and I exchanged posts a few years ago after I stated I owned a 2005 Ford Escape and loved it and you had suggested you were thinking about getting one.

I’ve been thinking of selling mine for awhile (too many vehicles) but every time I get in the Escape I find renewed appreciation for it…

Yesterday you remarked about how well it handles. Have you had it in ice yet? Mine is AWD and is divine in the snow and ice. The ABS is great in it too.

Comment by X-philly
2009-11-24 11:29:47

Have you had it in ice yet?
No sir (ma’am?) - sorry, I know you’re a lifer here, but I’m not sure: are you a he or a she?

However the ABS has been tested and passed with flying colors. I originally was going to purchase the Escape but the 2009 Mariner had some fanciness to it that I liked.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 11:59:14

X-Philly,

“and is divine” ( see above )

C’mon. The only time guys say that is when being offered a (3rd) glass of brandy?

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 12:16:32

Philly, I be a he. Glad you are liking it.

DinOR, you and I are gonna tangle. You musta been one o’ those angry sorts spun out in a snow bank on Hwy 35 on Sunday that I effortlessly weaved my way through to the mountain.

And it’s a Maker’s, not a brandy!…and how would you know that anyway? ;-)

 
 
 
 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 11:45:43

Just bought a 2010 Escape for the wifey…

Congrats!

The Escape is on my “short list” for when I am forced to replace my battered ‘96 Explorer.

Comment by Muggy
2009-11-24 12:54:40

I just drove it home. I can’t believe how smooth the ride is… good riddance to my Contour!

Also, 0% financing for 60mos. on Ford Credit. FICO is king.

 
 
Comment by Carlos4
2009-11-25 00:27:02

Smart move. Now you have one less distraction; just make sure its nearly paid off before you take the house plunge.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 10:28:30

Good for Arizona, hope it happens for you.

Arizona Gov Signs Bills to Eliminate $2B Deficit.
Ariz. lawmakers, gov OK bills to cut one-fourth of $2B deficit; they’ll meet again next week.
PHOENIX November 24, 2009 (AP)

Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed legislation to eliminate about a quarter of the state’s nearly $2 billion midyear budget deficit, as she and lawmakers acknowledged that the action was only a start.

“These cuts that we’re making today barely make a dent in the problem,” said Rep. John Kavanagh, R-Fountain Hills.

The three budget bills Brewer signed Monday include $292.6 million of spending cuts, plus funding shifts and other changes to bring the total savings to $452 million. The spending cuts target funding for K-12 schools’ equipment purchases and Department of Economic Security social services.

The Legislature adjourned its special session after passing the bills.

Votes Monday on the main spending bill were along party lines in the House and nearly so in the Senate, where one Republican joined Democrats in voting against it.

Numerous Democrats joined Republicans in voting for another bill that diverts money and authorizes state agencies to increases fees so they can keep operating.

Democrats said they acknowledged spending cuts are needed but said they wouldn’t support them without more comprehensive action.

“We’re not considering what has to be one-half of the equation, and that’s revenue,” said Rep. Steve Farley, D-Tucson.

Republicans scoffed, saying Democrats hadn’t shown a willingness to support any cuts.

“It takes courage to cut back on your government and it’s much easier to just vote no,” said Sen. Sylvia Allen, R-Snowflake.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 10:30:31

Economy Is Forcing Young Adults Back Home in Big Numbers, Survey Finds. ~ November 24, 2009 (NYT)

For more young adults, there is no place like home for the holidays, and for the rest of the year, too. Ten percent of adults younger than 35 told the Pew Research Center that they had moved back in with their parents because of the recession.

They also blamed the economy for other lifestyle decisions. Twelve percent had gotten a roommate to share expenses. Fifteen percent said they had postponed getting married, and 14 percent said they had delayed having a baby.

In the Pew study, 13 percent of parents with grown children said one of their adult sons or daughters had moved back home in the past year. According to Pew, of all grown children who lived with their parents, 2 in 10 were full-time students, one-quarter were unemployed and about one-third said they had lived on their own before returning home.

According to the census, 56 percent of men 18 to 24 years old and 48 percent of women were either still under the same roof as their parents or had moved back home.

A smaller share of 16-to-24-year-olds — 46 percent — is currently employed than at any time since the government began collecting that data in 1948.

Meanwhile, the portion of adults 18 to 29 who lived alone declined to 7.3 percent in 2009 from 7.9 percent in 2007, according to the Current Population Survey. A decline that big was recorded only twice before over three decades, in the early 1980s and the early 1990s during or after recessions.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 10:37:33

New Communication Technology…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xDbfHYZy4k

 
Comment by cobaltblue
2009-11-24 10:38:03

The FDIC Is Broke
Yes, really.

Off the wire this morning:

FDIC Deposit fund had negative $8.2B balance in Q3

That’s broke. Bankrupt. Kaput. Gone. Poof. Dead. Rotting. A corpse.

Yes, yes, I know, Treasury has their back. But let’s not forget - The FDIC does not have a legal “full faith and credit” guarantee from the US Federal Government and Treasury.

It has a “sense of Congress” resolution, but not a formal, legally-binding guarantee.

I am not, by the way, predicting an actual FDIC failure to pay. Should such an event happen it would be tantamount to a declaration of revolutionary war (by the government about to be deposed!) as if there is one thing that would cause Granny to reach for her shotgun, it would be getting screwed out of her life savings after Sheila Bair and everyone else in our government has trotted out how their money is “fully safe” and that “nobody has ever lost a penny of insured deposits and never will” for more than 20 years, including lots of pronouncements of exactly that mantra over the last year.

Nonetheless this outlines the underlying problem the FDIC has - it has willfully and intentionally ignored the fact that banks have mismarked their “assets” to overstate their values, it has refused to demand that accounting be done on a strict “mark to market” basis by bank examiners, and indeed, it has backed the “extend and pretend” commercial real estate “rollover” provisions of recent months, all of which is manifestly unsound, intentionally misleading, a consequence of willful refusal to enforce 12 USC Ch 16 Sec 1831o (”Prompt Corrective Action”), and has led to enormous losses being absorbed by the Deposit Insurance Fund that should have never happened.

The result?

THE FDIC IS BROKE.

Let’s put this in common-man terms:

YOUR SO-CALLED “DEPOSIT INSURANCE” AND THE SEVERAL TRILLION IN CITIZEN BANK DEPOSITS ARE BACKED BY THE SAME AMOUNT OF CAPITAL THAT AIG HAD TO BACK THEIR CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS: BUPKIS.

Congratulations Sheila - is that your resignation I see in your hand or is that your promotion from Obama - after all, we all know that in Government the more you screw up and screw the taxpayer, the better the job you’re offered.

One final question: Is the only thing preventing panic and bank runs the sheer stupidity of The American People?

(From K. Denninger)

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 11:10:45

This is nonsense. Didn’t Denninger get the memo that the FDIC has a bottomless credit line at the Treasury?

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-11-24 12:02:34

cobaltblue,

In fairness, Sheila has been on her tippy toes wailing about this for some time now. AND other issues. Probably one of the more level-headed ones in the bunch.

( I thought they weren’t slated to Tango Uniform until March 2010 though ? ) Whoops.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 12:21:24

Hey! You slam me, then come out with….”tippy toes”? Dude.

 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 17:17:16

“Is the only thing preventing panic and bank runs the sheer stupidity of The American People?”

The sheer stupidity of the American people is preventing a lot things.

 
Comment by kmfdm rules
2009-11-24 19:02:53

How about the NCUA - the organization that insures credit unions. Not sure how many credit unions have failed so far since they tend to be more conservative with lending but we never hear of failures or how well funded the NCUA is.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 19:14:00

Google is your friend.

 
 
 
Comment by measton
2009-11-24 11:07:29

From NYT

The other amendment, the Bair-Miller-Moore Haircut is potentially even more controversial.

It calls for secured creditors of banks — the top creditors on the totem pole — to be entitled to receive only 80 percent, not 100 percent, of the money they put up if a bank is taken over in receivership or a conservatorship by the government.

Again, not so simple in practice. Because of the new risk, banks would find it more expensive to raise money — especially so when they run into problems.

**** ie good incentive to run your bank well, bond holders would request more info on banks holdings before investing. We would cut down on the moral hazard of bailouts*****

Joseph Abate, a Barclays Capital analyst, made this point in a research report, too: “In any situation where it appears that a large firm is about to fail, secured lenders will rapidly head for the exit and terminate as many of their repo transactions as possible.

***** And how is this different from any other company in the US, this arguement is a great one for breaking apart TBTF and brining back Glass Steagle*****

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 11:12:45

GM May Shut Saab as Koenigsegg Ends Acquisition Talks (Update1)

Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) — General Motors Co. may shut its Saab unit after Koenigsegg Group AB canceled a planned acquisition of the Swedish company, a person familiar with the matter said.

GM’s board will review the future of the bankrupt unit at a Dec. 1 meeting, said the person, who asked not to be identified because the talks aren’t public. Directors could opt to keep Saab, as they did when deciding earlier this month to cancel a sale of the Opel brand in Germany, the person said.

“We will take the next several days to assess the situation and will advise on the next steps next week,” GM Chief Executive Officer Fritz Henderson said in a statement today. “We’re obviously very disappointed with the decision to pull out.”

Comment by In Colorado
2009-11-24 12:54:05

Nobody wants Opel or Saab. I guess would be buyers came to realize that there is this little problem with global over capacity.

I’m guessing that GM will eventually shut both of t hem down.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 11:19:17

This reminds me of a fellow I knew years ago that sent in a super low ball bid on a 70′ Motor Yacht. 60 days later… surprise, it’s yours. Damn near broke the guy, in WAY over his head.

88,000 seats, one ’surprising’ winner ~ November 24, 2009
REAL ESTATE ~ The Globe and Mail

Andreas Apostolopoulos didn’t expect to actually win when he mailed in a low-ball bid for an abandoned 88,000-seat stadium in suburban Detroit.

After spotting an auction ad in the back of a newspaper only weeks ago, he decided to bid $583,000 (U.S.) for the Pontiac Silverdome, the former home of football’s Detroit Lions. The president of Toronto-based Triple Properties Inc. put a $250,000 deposit in the mail, with only online documents from the auction house to guide him.

Then he forgot about it, content to manage his company’s small portfolio of retail and industrial properties.

“It was a bit surprising,” Mr. Apostolopoulos said yesterday after the sale was confirmed by a U.S. judge.

“There were really very few bids.”

Mr. Apostolopoulos’ bid, one of four, has earned attention across the United States for the extraordinary price: It values the stadium at about 1 per cent of the $55.7-million it cost to build in 1975.

The deal underscores the depth of the real estate collapse in economically depressed Detroit and the fiscal crisis facing cities across the United States.

High unemployment and business bankruptcies have devastated tax rolls in many municipalities, forcing them to sell assets at almost any price to reduce deficits and maintain services. Pontiac, a city about 50 kilometres north of Detroit, was desperate to offload the stadium, which has cost $1.5-million a year to maintain since the National Football League’s Lions moved to a new downtown Detroit facility in 2002.

“The Silverdome will now be in the hands of professionals who can devote their time to transform this high-profile property into a vital asset instead of enabling it to continue to languish as an empty facility,” said Fred Leeb, the city’s emergency financial planner.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 11:41:06

“$583,000 (U.S.) for the Pontiac Silverdome”

How does that compare on a price-per-square-foot basis to a $583,000 four bedroom three bath San Diego McMansion?

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 12:05:14

Not only that, but you can’t properly practice your field goal kicking in that 4/3.

 
Comment by ET-Chicago
2009-11-24 12:07:12

Quite favorably, in terms of bathroom capacity, hot dog-making potential, available rumpus space, and multi-car family parking.

 
 
Comment by packman
2009-11-24 11:52:15

“transform this high-profile property into a vital asset” = break out the bulldozers.

Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 12:04:04

Their initial plan is to bring in Female soccer teams. Along with male I would guess. Good luck is all I can say.

Comment by In Colorado
2009-11-24 12:49:59

I had heard that they wanted to bring an MLS team in. Not sure how popular soccer is in the Detroit area. MLS ticket prices have gone up.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by DennisN
2009-11-24 13:24:55

This is just so odd. The stadium sold for $583K. My little 1,000 square foot house in San Jose sold for $670K (in May 2006). There’s just something wrong going on here.

The stadium would make a great homeless shelter - especially at that price.

Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-25 13:04:57

The Silverdome building itself is probably a liability, the money is for the underlying land. The land would be worth much more if the building wasn’t there. Same was true of the Kingdome a few years back. The building = demolition and removal costs, but it was fun to watch the implosion.

In Seattle, they spent a little over $1.2 billion total for not one, but two stadiums to house arguably two of the least entertaining franchises in the pros. At least they were smart enough to say synora to the Sonics, I’ll bet they’re a huge draw in OkieCity.

Qwest field is an un-roofed facility. Wouldn’t everyone want to watch a losing franchise in Seattle in December. Ummmmmm fun.

 
 
Comment by iowa
2009-11-24 13:31:01

moved to a new downtown Detroit facility in 2002.

That tells a lot, doesn’t it? And we wonder why are we so fkuc’ed up?

 
Comment by maplesucks
2009-11-24 13:37:06

Waste of taxpayers’ money.

I mean why would you want to build a multi million stadium for 8 games a year?

Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 17:22:42

Why do people pay $50+ dollars to watch mindless entertainment?

That’s why.

 
 
Comment by Don't Know Nothin About Buyin No House
2009-11-24 19:31:19

“There were really very few bids.”

Our new national motto!

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 11:38:06

Distressed Homeowners Ponder Whether to Stay or Go.
James R. Hagerty ~ November 24, 2009 ~ WSJ

Brian Gindlesperger says he has never been late on a mortgage payment and considers paying off his loan “the right thing to do.” But as the value of his home continues to fall, he is starting to wonder whether paying his debt is the smartest thing to do.

Four years ago, Mr. Gindlesperger, a police officer, and his wife Kelly, a real-estate agent, paid $650,000 for a four-bedroom house in this wealthy Phoenix suburb. They believed they were getting a bargain price for the area and made a 20% down payment, using a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage to pay the balance. To help pay for their eldest daughter’s college costs, home improvements and a wedding, they took out a second mortgage against their home. Now they owe about $647,000 on the two mortgages.

But home prices on average have dropped about 48% in the Phoenix area since peaking in mid-2006, according to the First American CoreLogic index. Mr. Gindlesperger figures his home now probably is worth only $375,000 to $425,000, even though it comes with a four-car garage, a pool and a 1.2-acre lot. Zillow.com, a Web site that makes home-value estimates based largely on recent sales of nearby properties, pegs their house at $374,000.

Families like the Gindlespergers are among millions of Americans who are “underwater” on their mortgages, owing more than the current value of their homes, and they face a dilemma: Keep making payments and hope for the best — or walk away, give up their home and accept the seven-year blemish of a foreclosure on their credit record.

No one is forcing the Gindlespergers out of their home, but sometimes they have to dip into savings to make their mortgage payments. Like others who are underwater, they lack a cushion of equity that would protect them if illness or a job loss slashed their income. That makes them more vulnerable to foreclosure because they couldn’t count on selling their home for enough money to satisfy their lenders.

Only a huge rebound in home prices — something that appears unlikely in the near term — would give the Gindlespergers a shot at having equity in their house again.

Comment by In Colorado
2009-11-24 12:48:13

Won’t the second mortgage be a recourse loan?

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 12:57:56

Only a huge rebound in home prices — something that appears unlikely in the near term — would give the Gindlespergers a shot at having equity in their house again.

Or a cram-down.

 
 
Comment by Reuven
2009-11-24 11:42:35

NYTimes Front Page today: “The Modest Recover in Home Prices is Beginning to Falter”

I guess we need to get the Government to prop up home prices even more!

Comment by edgewaterjohn
2009-11-24 11:59:10

Watching the MSM try to report each minute tick of houseprices is like hiring John Madden to give color commentary on the daily movements of the Athabasca Glacier.

Comment by lavi d
2009-11-24 12:59:36

Watching the MSM try to report each minute tick of houseprices is like hiring John Madden to give color commentary on the daily movements of the Athabasca Glacier.

I could watch that. For a while anyway. I miss John Madden.

Comment by Muggy
2009-11-24 16:42:44

I loved it when he’d diagram Turkeys on Thanksgiving.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 17:36:59

LOL. I even salivate at the opportunity to hear the Frank Caliendo version.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 12:28:43

This is one of those groups that sells computers on late night TV commercials. No credit check, but must have a checking account. $29.00 a week.

BlueHippo Funding LLC files for Chapter 11

* Cites freezing of accounts by its payment processor’s bank

* Lists total assets in range of $10 mln to $50 mln

* Lists total liabilities in range of $10 mln to $50 mln

Nov 24 (Reuters) - U.S. direct response marketing company BlueHippo Funding LLC filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, citing a sudden freezing of accounts by the company’s payment processor’s bank.

BlueHippo said its bank froze funds without warning due to a statement by the Federal State Commission (FTC) that it was seeking to amend a $3.5 million settlement with the company.

On Nov. 15, BlueHippo said the FTC filed legal papers in an attempt to change the terms of an agreement in April 2008.

In a filing with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the District of Delaware on Monday, the specialty merchandise lending company listed estimated assets and liabilities in the range of $10 million to $50 million.

Comment by bink
2009-11-24 15:01:15

The FTC suit claimed they only shipped out a tiny percentage of orders from people they took money from. They truly were a scam. (as if that wasn’t obvious by the ads)

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 12:30:59

Penn Traffic notice would cut 4,000 jobs.
Business First of Buffalo

Penn Traffic Co. has notified the New York state Department of Labor its plan to put more than 4,000 employees out of work as of Feb. 15, 2010.

The Syracuse-based company, which operates Quality stores in Western New York, filed for bankruptcy protection last week. Penn is looking to sell some or all of its stores and other assets. Other stores in the grocery chain include P&C Foods and Bi-Lo, located in New York state, Pennsylvania and Vermont.

The filing under the state’s “Warn” law, requires employers to give 90 days notice on mass layoffs. In all, Penn said its plant closing would impact 4,142 workers and take hold Feb. 15, 2010.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 17:26:40

Yeouch. 4K. Yeouch.

Then there’s the vendor cascade…

 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-11-24 13:08:51

Well Its OFFICIAL….don’t waste your time applying for jobs on the books.

Cash/barter economy here we come.

——————–
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Federal Reserve expects the unfolding recovery will be gradual, as modest growth keeps the nation’s unemployment rate elevated over the next several years, according to a new forecast.

Most Fed policymakers said it could take “five or six years” for the economy and the labor market to get back on a path of full health

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 13:16:20

NBA uniforms may be made in Asia.
Senator urges Adidas to keep uniforms ‘Made in the U.S.A.’

WASHINGTON - The official uniforms for NBA players could soon be made in Asia.

Sports apparel maker Adidas plans to end its contract with American suppliers and move production to a factory in Thailand. The move could cost about 100 jobs at a factory in upstate New York that makes more than half the uniforms worn by Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and other NBA players.

Sen. Chuck Schumer said the move would destroy over a century of history for the marquee American sport. He is calling on Adidas to reverse its decision and to keep making the uniforms in the USA.

Comment by DennisN
2009-11-24 13:27:31

Adidas is a German company IIRC.

Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-11-24 14:40:18

Wouldn’t it then be DGTTIUS instead of ADIDAS:

Den ganzen Tag Träume ich Über Sportarten

 
 
Comment by maplesucks
2009-11-24 13:38:52

Senator Chucky. Another idiot.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 13:48:12

“Sen. Chuck Schumer said the move would destroy over a century of history for the marquee American sport”.

I wish the note taker had asked up-Chucky what he has been ‘destroying’ lately.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 17:29:55

Why not? Our military uniforms are offshored.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 13:54:10

I’ll stop working the day I blow a valve. Have to have a project going, so may as well try and turn a buck. Seems to me many folks around the global had some unrealistic expectations.

Record number of older workers forced to shelve retirement plans due to financial crisis ~ 24th November 2009 (UK)

Older workers are having tor rethink their retirement plans

Record numbers of older people fear they will have to work beyond the official retirement age, research has revealed.

More than 70 per cent of workers aged 55 and above said the financial crisis has left them with no option but to shelve their retirement plans.

The figure was just 40 per cent in the same survey two years ago.

A cruel combination of shrinking pension pots, paltry interest on savings and the fall in property prices is forcing them to stay at work.

The research, from the Chartered Institute of Personnel & Development, reveals that private sector workers are the biggest losers.

Just 36 per cent of workers in the private sector have a company pension, compared to 90 per cent of public sector workers.

This is further damning evidence of the growing pensions apartheid in Britain with public sector workers enjoying gold-plated pensions - but almost nobody else.

By comparison, few private sector workers even get a company pension, and even fewer get one that will pay for a decent retirement.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 13:59:25

Here’s Peggy Joseph… This was to funny/sad not to remember. Poor thing, I think she and millions of others really believed the things Barry said on the trail.

“Obama Is Going To Pay For My Gas And Mortgage”!!!

http://polidics.com/presidential-candidates/barack-obama/obama-is-going-to-pay-for-my-gas-and-mortgage.html

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 14:02:31

There are plenty of “brown squirt” indicators out there. We’ll need to get the transportation czar on this post hast.

Trinity Rail plans December Longview-area layoffs
Tuesday, November 24, 2009

Longview-area Trinity Rail Car plants will lay off 160 workers in December, according to John Stroud, Longview Economic Development Corp. executive director.

A spokeswoman for parent company Trinity Industries would not confirm the workforce reduction. The company had not notified the Texas Workforce Commission of planned layoffs.

Stroud said the reduction — nearly 20 percent of Trinity’s workforce in Longview — would take effect by Dec. 18.

Trinity is one of Longview’s largest industrial employers and is a major national manufacturer of railroad tank cars.

“We have been watching the transportation sector closely because it is a major indicator of how our national economy is doing,” Stroud said. “As consumer spending has declined, the demand for more goods transported by rail and truck declines. Consumer spending is still low.”

In the third quarter, net income for the Dallas-based company fell by 74 percent compared to the same period a year ago. For the year, net income was off 62 percent.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 14:24:49

Thanksgiving Flights Stuffed as Fees Bolster Airline Sales.

Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) — Americans will pack planes and struggle to stow carry-on bags as they fly over the Thanksgiving holiday. For U.S. airlines, that’s all good.

Record fees to check luggage and new charges of as much as $20 each way on peak travel days will make Thanksgiving a bright spot in a year when waning demand spurred the biggest capacity cuts since 1942 among carriers including Delta Air Lines Inc.

“Virtually all of them should make money,” said George Hamlin, president of Hamlin Transportation Consulting in Fairfax, Virginia. The number of seats sold will be “very high, fares are not at their lowest, and fuel is not exorbitant.”

For passengers, the rest of this month will magnify the 2009 squeeze of fewer flights, fuller cabins and added costs on top of their tickets. Travelers will pay extra on Nov. 29 and 30, the Sunday and Monday after the Nov. 26 holiday, as carriers apply the first seasonal surcharges for busy flying periods.

“Airlines are antagonizing customers to such an extent that I’m almost ready to tell my son to take the Greyhound bus, and that’s a 14-hour ride,” said biotech researcher David Lilienfeld, 52, whose son, Sam, will fly home to San Francisco from Reed College in Portland, Oregon.

Comment by Spokaneman
2009-11-25 13:18:48

In my past life, I traveled a lot for business and was a Delta Platinum Medallion (100K miles/year) for 8 years, I believe and was a Premier Executive on UA before taht.. I still have several hundered thousand DL FF miles. But, I’ve started flying Southwest almost exclusively (exclusively if they go where I need to be) just because I think that all in all they do a very good job. If nothing else, thier employees seem to like what they are doing. Yeah, the planes can be cattle cars, particularly compared to the up front cabin on a DL widebody, but the new boarding procedure reduces the cattlecar experience a lot. I save my FF miles now for when I have some kind of last minute travel requirement or if I go somewhere that Southwest does not.

With the security requirements that are now required, the class of traveler that makes up most of the flying public and the economic pressures on the entire airline industry, flying will never again be enjoyable. Southwest, IMHO, makes it at least tolerable. I’ve not flown Jet Blue, but I hear much the same about them. Same with Virgin. I suppose the Legacy Carriers are basically dead men walking.

 
 
Comment by CarrieAnn
2009-11-24 14:43:51

WSJ reporting FDIC Deposit Insurance Fund Sinks To Negative Territory

WASHINGTON (Dow Jones)–The government insurance fund that protects more than $4.5 trillion of U.S. bank deposits slipped into the red at the end of September, after fifty banks collapsed during the third quarter.

The deposit insurance fund dropped by $18.6 billion during the third quarter of 2009 to negative $8.2 billion, as the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. set aside $21.7 billion in provisions for additional bank failures.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-11-24 15:29:17

No lending, no recovery.
Loans keep falling as banks tidy up their balance sheets. Can the economy grow without their help?
November 24, 2009: 3:39 PM ET

NEW YORK (Fortune) — In an ominous sign for the recovery, bank loans are drying up faster than ever.

Loan balances at commercial banks fell at the fastest clip in at least 25 years in the third quarter, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. said Tuesday.

Outstanding loans have fallen every quarter since last fall, when the collapse of Lehman Brothers and other big financial firms turned a recession into a full-fledged financial crisis.

But the third quarter decline was the sharpest yet, leaving banks’ balance sheets 7% smaller than they were at this time a year ago.

The falloff in bank lending is fueling worries that a taxpayer-financed economic recovery could run out of gas as borrowers scrounge for credit. The concern is particularly acute for the small businesses that account for much of U.S. job creation.

“There are people with legitimate projects out there who cannot get loans, and we can’t sustain a real recovery without access to credit,” said Brian Olasov, a managing director at law firm McKenna Long & Aldridge who focuses on real estate finance.

 
Comment by Lisa
2009-11-24 16:01:49

“There are people with legitimate projects out there who cannot get loans, and we can’t sustain a real recovery without access to credit,” said Brian Olasov, a managing director at law firm McKenna Long & Aldridge who focuses on real estate finance.”

Payback time for years of zero or nearly zero savings rate in the U.S. The only money available is credit, and now that’s not available either.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 17:32:23

+1

 
Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 18:42:30

“we can’t sustain a real recovery without access to credit”

There’s something very troubling about that line. And the fact that it was said without a hint of irony.

 
 
Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2009-11-24 16:17:59

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8375969.stm

BBC is just now getting around to revealing the full extent of the “secret” government loans (meaning, taxpayer obligations) handed over to their failing banks. Wonder if similar secret loans/agreements/understandings are still waiting to come to light in the US as well.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 17:25:16

The subject of secret loans sounds like excellent non-monetary-policy material for the Fed’s Congressional auditors to explore.

Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2009-11-24 19:40:13

B…b…but an audit would threaten the Fed’s independence. And their ability to funnel billions to their banker cronies who bet the wrong way in the global casino.

 
 
 
Comment by Michael Viking
2009-11-24 16:51:11

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/business/22loans.html?_r=1

“As millions of Americans struggle to hold on to their homes, Wall Street has found a way to make money from the mortgage mess.”

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 17:26:36

Those Wall Street bankers are very efficient at bilking Main Street wealth, aren’t they?

Comment by ecofeco
2009-11-24 17:33:55

It’s easy when you own the government!

Comment by exeter
2009-11-24 18:52:59

Awww…. Wall ST and the banks wouldn’t do such a thing. Really!And besides, we need the banks! We need rich people! We need insurance companies!

The poor rich people!!! errrr….. um..

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-11-24 17:23:36

This correlation is very easily explained. A tsunami of liquidity from the world’s central banks has flooded into risky assets, driving them skyward at the same time. The crash leg side of this runup will also be highly correlated, when the flattened risk premiums revert to prudential levels. Quite a conundrum, neh?

* The Wall Street Journal
* NOVEMBER 24, 2009, 4:34 P.M. ET

U.S., Overseas Stock Correlation Too Strong to Last

BY PALASH R. GHOSH

The correlation between U.S. and foreign stock markets, even the emerging markets, has become so strong as to render almost meaningless the concept of geographic investment diversification and asset allocation.

According to data from S&P, the correlation between the S&P 500 and the MSCI EAFE and MSCI EM indexes is now above 0.83, an extremely high figure.

However, this strong correlation between such disparate markets is unlikely to last partially because it was created in the first place by the extraordinary and unprecedented synchronized downturn in the global economy last year.

 
Comment by Muggy
2009-11-24 18:06:31

Aww schnit!

My out of state landlord is in town for the holidays and wants to stop by to check in on the house. I’m going to have to park the new ride down the street, or she’ll re-neg on our reduced rent.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2009-11-24 18:38:31

Tell her it belongs to the “family” you sublet the basement to.

 
 
Name (required)
E-mail (required - never shown publicly)
URI
Your Comment (smaller size | larger size)
You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

Trackback responses to this post

  • The Housing Bubble Blog