Bits Bucket For November 29, 2009
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The Housing Bubble
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
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Name:Ben Jones
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MSM reluctantly acknowledges the “new normal” in America:
Could you get by after losing 40% of your pay?
www DOT cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/11/could_you_get_by_after_losing.html
Note: this article was on cleveland.com’s front page when I first read it last night but is now tucked away in the business section where no one will read it. Move along folks, nothing to see here.
More on Ohio’s economic death spiral here:
Across U.S., Food Stamp Use Soars and Stigma Fades
www DOT nytimes.com/2009/11/29/us/29foodstamps.html?hp
Alright, so let’s take home prices back to reasonable levels, then whack another 40% off of that. Sounds good to me. If that happened, I’d be able to spend money on things others than food, healthcare, transportation, and housing.
“Alright, so let’s take home prices back to reasonable levels, then whack another 40% off of that. Sounds good to me.”
They already did something like that in Cleveland and Detroit.
“If that happened, I’d be able to spend money on things other than food, healthcare, transportation and housing.”
Just like those lucky souls who live in Cleveland and Detroit.
“Could you get by after losing 40% of your pay?”
Yes, but it would be no fun.
Already cut -35% in 2003, NO raise since 85.
So, if it happened again? Tight isn’t the word I would use.
All the excess has been cut out.
“Could you get by after losing 40% of your pay?”
We’re already spending less than 40% of net for essentials.
Could you get by after losing 40% of your pay?
Yes - and I’m a teacher with a stay-at-home wife and a kid.
…not to mention a pension, summers off, and a lifetime health plan.
We have school teacher friends. They have PERS-2 or 3, which is a 401k plan, and six months of group medical following retirement — then it’s back to the free market. Summers? Yes, that is a benefit — time needed to decompress. Very few teachers leap from the sidewalk and click their heels together with glee on the way to the parking lot at the end of a teaching day, IMHO.
Exactly right, rms. Thanks for posting that.
———————-
Good to see you again, We Rent! Haven’t seen you around in awhile and had wondered if you guys bought already. You’ve done well to be able to have a SAHM on a teacher’s salary. Nicely done!
Not really - and I’ve lost more like 60% of my pay due to government intervention in interest rates. Lowering interest rates has punished retirees attempting to live off the interest on savings. And I’m still a few years away from SS and Medicare.
It would be ugly, but we could do it.
Lowering interest rates has punished retirees attempting to live off the interest on savings.
Something we never hear anything about. I wonder why the seniors/AARP haven’t gotten all over this problem with artificially low interest rates. I can’t imagine how difficult it would be after almost a decade of too-low rates.
I know a lot of seniors ,they are eating it bad .The ones that I know that were in the stock market know that in their lifetime they will never recoup . Seniors planned their life around the promises of the so-called Authorities .I know one guy who they cut his Pension 30% .
But ,no major group seems to be able to change the fact that
the Culprits of this Ponzi-scheme are the ones getting the cheese
and everyone else pays for it in one way or another .
Yes, but I’d no longer be able to put 20% of my pay in my 401k.
The NYTimes was puzzling this morning.
The Food Stamp article–which pointed out that 12% of American’ts now get Food Stamps–had quotes from Conservative pundits pointing out that food stamps encourage people not to marry and not to work.
However, the very next article, about banks not doing enough to keep people in “their” homes with cramdown giveaways didn’t quote any conservative backlash! The way I see it, for every person who is kept in “his home” with a cramdown-giveaway, some honest person is kept OUT of a home. A person who wouldn’t think of buying a home unless he could truly afford it, and only if the cost/benefit analysis panned out.
There was another article in the NY section about a woman who was trying to negotiate for a new loan, unsucessfully. Mentioned briefly in the article was that her original loan was interst only! What the heck does this woman want? The government to _pay_ her to stay in “her home?”
The way I see it, for every person who is kept in “his home” with a cramdown-giveaway, some honest person is kept OUT of a home.
Could you elaborate on this? Because I’m one of the few in favor of a cram-down program. However, my idea of a cram-down is pretty severe: Primary residence only, no refi’s, the FB declares BK, and the cram is publicly recorded as a sale, and a comp.
I think this would solve a lot of problems. No specuvestors allowed. The irresponsible FB takes his hit by going BK, selling toys, and losing his FICO. The bank takes its hit in cash. FB is back on his feet — he’s able to spend again which is good. And house prices come down by comp for the rest of us to take advantage of. No shortage of houses.
Congress was making noises about a cram-down program but the bank lobbyists put a stop to it right quick. And if lobbyists hate a program, it’s probably good.
First of all, your idea of a cramdown isn’t what’s going to happen.
There’s NO provision for accountability in any proposed cramdown program. No check to make sure the buyers didn’t lie on their application. No exclusion for licensed R-E agents (who should have been informed enough to know what they were doing), people who put no money down, had I/O loans, or seconds and HELOCs.
And most important, these debtors won’t have to pay income tax on the forgiven debt! That’s outrageous.
Sure, I can imagine some theoretical situation where cramdowns would be “fair.” But that’s not what’s going to happen. They’re going on at the expense of Savers and Taxpayers.
oxide, I agree with you that a reasonable cram-down provision makes a lot of sense. It acknowledges that the bank’s collateral is worth less than the loan, and knocks the loan down to that level. I agree that it only makes sense in the context of BK—which is really what was being proposed anyway. Recording it as a sale would be nice, but seems unlikely.
“There’s NO provision for accountability in any proposed cramdown program.”
There is provision for accountability: the FB will have a BK on their record. That’s pretty good accountability in my book.
I also don’t see any reason to restrict it to “no refi’s”, “no app lies”, or “no RE-agents”. While each of those may appeal to our sense of fair play, the cram-downs still make economic sense in that they are marking loans down to the FMV of the house.
Cram-downs are a simple mark-to-reality on the loans, without much of the upheaval of families having to move.
And those families who “don’t have to move” are forcing responsible renters out of the market.
The FBs made their beds, now they should lie in them. Best to streamline the foreclosure process — make it fully transparent via a pubic (online) auction with pre-qualified bidders who can be tracked.
Both borrowers and lenders made mistakes. They should be the ones to fail, not people who have been patiently waiting to buy their own homes.
CA Renter …Right on . Thats what I’m doing because I own a house . I’m paying my mortgage and that is the bed I made and
nobody can convince me to walk on that obligation . I had a nice low fixed loan from day one ,so that makes it nicer to live with .
Now that this house is to big for me because I’m alone now and sometimes I think I would feel more comfortable renting a 500 square foot box somewhere , I’m not going to walk on the obligation . So ,I’m stuck with all this space ,not a bad fate
really ,sometimes I like all this space .I would rather see a family of 4 in this joint .But with the way the market makers screwed up the market it makes it difficult for someone to make changes ,unless they want to lose a lot of money ,or don’t care about walking on a obligation .
FICO score “Damage points” to be released (info in article)
http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/108239/fICO-reveals-how-common-credit-mistakes-affect-scores?mod=bb-creditreports
-140 to -160 for a previously 780 score:
… Let the foreclosure race commence!
He has that right, If you are married you have to combine income on all forms..
Income Guidelines (no elderly or disabled member)
Family Size Monthly Gross Income* Annual Gross Income*
1 $ 1,174 $ 14,088
2 $ 1,579 $ 18,948
Maximum Food Stamp Benefit Allowances
Household Size Maximum Allotment
1 $200
2 367
So you get Less or NONE if you both work and earn too much
Conservative pundits pointing out that food stamps encourage people not to marry and not to work.
People who say social services only encourage laziness are people who have never been poor.
Eco:
Its gaming the system within the income guidelines.
Just plugged 60% into my budget. Yes, I could, just with less left over.
Hope that everyone refrained from excess consumption over the weekend - unless you realize that you may as well spend your Fiat Currency while you have it and it still has a perception of value.
Dubai’s hilarious bubble has finally popped- I give them credit for creating a world so ostentatiously wild that they built things that can be seen from space (Palm Jumierah, World) before their bubble burst. This as opposed to the wood-and-styrofoam shacks scattered around the USA.
My guess is that this and a few other sovereign BK’s or “reschedulings” should finally start the next leg down. I was going to take bets as to where the next civil unrest would be, but Russia has already gotten some. The Vietnamese devaluation was an interesting harbinger- no complaints will be heard, because the savers know better than to complain.
What would Americans do if the Dollar was devalued 50% overnight? I saw it in Brazil in 99, and it was fascinating.
“Dubai’s hilarious bubble has finally popped.”
And vaporized a lot of money in the process.
“My guess is that this and a few other soverign BKs or ‘reschedulings’ should finally start the next leg down.”
And vaporize a lot more money.
This will make any remaining money increase in its value.
Prreeeeeach it Brotha!!!
Cash is King. I agree
What kind of cash is your king? That 50 pct overnight Brazilian currency devaluation remark certainly makes me feel as though I need more currency diversification in my portfolio.
“What kind of cash is your king?”
The kind bankrobbers are after.
The kind that solves all my financial problems, every one of them.
The kind that is relentlessly disappearing from the economy as I write these words.
I heart cash. And it is just as true for cash as it is true for love: Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
I wonder if my landlord is going to ask for euros next year? hope not!
Where would you put your cash?
Overpriced real estate, gold, or stocks
Imho investing in a small well need based business can be a good diversification.
“Imho investing in a small well need based business can be a good diversification.”
This is in my wife’s future…
50 % devaluation overnight
1. My guess this would result in war famine and a complete collapse of our society. What percentage of the country has barely enough for food and housing.
I lived in Mexico City when the peso went overnight from 12.50 to 22 pesos to a USD. It was very painful, especially for the poor, but it wasn’t the end of the world.
yeah, right. gotta love you disaster pornistas.
What % of the country even owns a passport???
Devaluation only effects imports. Last time i checked, the US was a net exporter of food.
Nobody ever starved because the price of a Mercedes convertible doubled.
What sort of ‘need-based’ biz are you looking into, PB? There aren’t many out there. (Taco stand…repo gal…Blackwater executive security…)
“What sort of ‘need-based’ biz are you looking into, PB?”
All businesses are ‘need-based’ (albeit some are not essential). Setting the right price can have a great influence on the level of ‘need.’
My wife is a musician. She already works steadily; I just want her to maximize her income potential by incorporating, instead of continuing the current informal word of mouth approach.
“I saw it in Brazil in 99, and it was fascinating.”
What happened to prices of existing local homes?
“I saw it in Brazil in 99, and it was fascinating.”
What happened to prices of existing local homes?
As I recall it took about 3-4 years to sort itself out. At first home prices were cut in half if one had US dollars. It was a great time to buy with dollars.
But eventually the home prices rose so much in the Brazilian Real that it evened out again in relation to the dollar.
Knifecatcher,
I would love to hear a first-person account of the people’s reaction to the 50% midnight haircut.
And yes I do feel it could happen here.
I would love to hear a first-person account of the people’s reaction to the 50% midnight haircut.
The people were stunned and shocked. Well, the poor didn’t care too much because beans and rice did not go up in price.
Brazilian tourism to the USA dropped maybe 80%. I remember trade shows in Orlando in 1998 where the Brazilians in their Disney bling where everywhere. By 2000 almost none. Tourism to Brazil greatly increased.
The standard of living for the Brazilian middle class fell. Imports became much more expensive. However Brazil manufactured most of it’s own stuff.
It did not affect home loans too much because there weren’t hardly any available anyway. Mortgages are new in Brazil.
“The people were stunned and shocked. Well, the poor didn’t care too much because beans and rice did not go up in price.”
?
1. What was the numerical ratio of “stunned & shocked” to “the poor”
2. Are guns prevalent in Brazil.
3. Are there “gated communities”
knifecather
Darn ….I knew that overrated piece of shit pile of disappearing sand playground with funny buildings called Dubai was going to come back and haunt me some day …and I didn’t play there
once ….not once .Money Globalism - How do you like it now ?
Then maybe Americans can manufacture stuff again…
Imports became much more expensive
Get rid of unions and OSHA and things will be made here again.
In California they need to address the ridiculous workmens comp charges that they pass along. So many things sound good in theory.
Don’t forget child labor, Eddie.
1. What was the numerical ratio of “stunned & shocked” to “the poor”
Brazil is actually a first and third world country sharing the same space. (I’ve seen the future) I’ve read that 30% of Brazilians are really poor and 20% kinda poor. The poor weren’t too stunned. Besides, they were busy getting ready for Carnival.
2. Are guns prevalent in Brazil.
I had to sell my guns when I moved here. Only the criminals can get guns easily here. And they got ‘em. It’s a bummer.
3. Are there “gated communities”
Yes, many.
Unlike the USA, Brazil has made decent progress socially and economically lately. Under “socialist” president Lula, and his “capitalist” predecessor, Cardoso, the rich got richer, the poor got richer and the middle class got richer. 35 million Brazilians joined the middle class and hunger has been all but wiped out.
It’s still kinda messed up but improving.
“Brazil’s growing middle class powers country’s economic rebound” McClatchy Newspapers 8/2/09
Imagine that, a country with actual policies to help its middle and lower classes get ahead! Why that’s downright unAmerican!
I was listening to NPR coming back from working on some foreclosed houses yesterday, and they were talking about Dubai. The host was going on about, “this is a year after the financial crisis, yet this happens.” There was some guy on who had written a book about the country, and they talked for 10 minutes or so. They never mentioned “bubble” or made the connection that it was all RE related. Just talk about credit, indoor ski slopes, and which corporation might take a hit, etc.
“this is a year after the financial crisis, yet this happens.”
The abysmal ignorance of people who get on the radio to discuss financial crises is sometimes shocking. Fifteen minutes spent reading Reinhart and Rogoff’s new book (available for $25 at Barnes and Nobel) is all it would take to avoid future embarassment.
Reinhart and Rogoff inadvertently make a convincing argument that “This Time is Different” compared to your garden variety post-WWII recession — i.e., the current situation is the Second Great Contraction, the first severe global financial crisis following that of the First Great Contraction of the 1930s.
The take home message of Reinhart and Rogoff is that severe financial crises (like the one we are in now which began in 2007) typically last for a period of years; in particular, the down leg housing price collapses in their survey lasted an average of six years, which would take the bottom out to 2013 in the present episode. I told my son yesterday that I am pretty much giving up my hope to ever buy a large CA home, but that his mom and I will plan to save our money in case any of our kids decide to settle out here.
Here is an excerpt discussing the aftermaths of severe global financial crises:
‘Broadly speaking, financial collapses are protracted affairs. More often than not, the aftermath of severe financial crises share these characteristics:
- First, asset market collapses are deep and prolonged. Declines in real housing prices average 35 percent stretched out over six years, whereas equity price collapses averaged 56 percent over a downturn of about three and a half years.
-Second, the aftermath of banking crises is associated with profound declines in output and employment. The unemployment rate rises an average of 7 percentage points during the down phases of the cycle, which lasts on average more than four years. Output falls (from peak to trough) more than 9 percent on average, although the duration of the downturn, averaging roughly two years, is considerably shorter than that of unemployment.
- Third, as noted earlier, the value of government debt tends to explode; it rose an average of 86 percent (in real terms, relative to precrisis debt) in the major post- WWII episodes. As discussed in chapter 10 (and as we reiterate here), the main cause of debt explosions is not the widely cited costs of bailing out and recapitalizing the banking system. Admittedly, bailout costs are difficult to measure, and the divergence among estimates from competing studies is considerable. But even upper-bound estimates pale next to actual measured increases in public debt. In fact the biggest driver of debt increases is the inevitable collapse in tax revenues that governments suffer in the wake of deep and prolonged output contractions. Many countries also suffer from a spike in the interest burden on debt, for interest rates soar, and in a few cases (most notably that of Japan in the 1990s), a countercyclical fiscal policy efforts contribute to the debt buildup.’
“As discussed in chapter 10 (and as we reiterate here), the main cause of debt explosions is not the widely cited costs of bailing out and recapitalizing the banking system. Admittedly, bailout costs are difficult to measure, and the divergence among estimates from competing studies is considerable.”
Missing from the book (or if it is there, I have not yet found it):
A discussion of how a standing policy at the IMF and the Fed of enabling Megabanks to grow to gargantuan too-big-to-fail size and unconditionally and routinely bailing them out regardless of how inane their banking practices become creates moral hazard which increases the risk of severe financial crises.
All sounds reasonable. But of course most countries suffering from these sorts major declines are borrowing in foreign currencies. How would the fact that the U.S. is a net debtor that borrowes in it’s own currency affect this? And how would it affect our creditors?
“But of course most countries suffering from these sorts major declines are borrowing in foreign currencies.”
This is THE key distinction, Jim.
The US is in no real danger of default as long as we can continue to borrow in our own currency, which we can print at will.
The handwriting is on the wall that we are in _serious_ trouble the day that we have to start borrowing in any other currency.
I heard black friday sales were up but they didnt get any money from me.I dont believe the black friday numbers the media spews out. They are part of the PPT.
Even if the numbers are real, that does not mean that sales will hold up. A lot of people may have finished their shopping by now.
A lot of people may have finished their shopping by now.
Yup, time will tell. It didn’t look too busy out here, no more than any other weekend.
I bought luxury sheets!
ann:
even a man can appreciate the difference in the quality… sheets towels pillows I don’t skimp on.
Hi Ann!
Where did you shop, and was it crowded?
Hope you have a great holiday season.
My wife and I went cruising some neighborhoods yesterday — neither of us want to buy here and raise our family here, but the reality is that our jobs and career paths are underway here. Anyway, three foreclosures we’ve been monitoring all had people in them. I was blown away. We also pulled up to a few open houses and there were several that had 3-5 cars at them ( a good mix of state tags).
One house was a 3/2/2 1,700 (our target) and they were asking $369k.
I think I’m about to go nuts again.
Muggy:
Something unexplainable is happening…I cant figure it out. Most all my friends and family are slow or not working. Nobody has gotten an increase in their credit card limits you read about people having credit limits chopped in half or more…then you see mass amounts of people on Black Friday.
Did certain zip codes near a wallymartz secretly get an increase this month? Did target kohls bed bath just give out a million new cards this month at a super low rate?
In 1972 Nixon won 49 states. After the election an editor at The New Yorker. Pauline Kael, was quoted in the NY Times as saying:
“I live in a rather special world. I only know one person who voted for Nixon. Where they are I don’t know.”
So it’s all fine and good and that you don’t know anyone working or buying homes. Don’t assume that’s the case for everyone else in the country.
Is Tricky Dick one of your heroes?
PB, even a dense lib such as yourself isn’t stupid enough to miss the point of that post. But nice try to dodge and weave the point at hand.
So, tell me when did you last beat your wife.
Your reputation as the straw man and ad hominem attack dog king of the blog grows by leaps and bounds.
Now that I have gone back and actually read your post (against your own best advice), I get the point: People were embarrassed to admit they voted for Tricky Dick. Perfectly understandable…
I expect those who caught falling knives in the current episode will eventually feel just as embarrassed as those who once voted for Tricky Dick, but are now too ashamed to admit it. It will prove a lot harder to hide an underwater mortgage than to hide one’s voting history.
Once again, I got a big laugh when Eddie called PBear a “dense lib.” A couple of years ago Bear constantly referred to the “DemoRats.”
PBear is an equal opportunity political party hater. That’s why I like him. But I worry that his wife and children hate us because he posts so much. Hopefully he’s a speedreader/speedtypist.
“So, tell me when did you last beat your wife.”
Stupid and unnecessary. Many of us know PB personally and your mud flinging cannot be further from the truth. A more stereotypic family man you’d be hard pressed to find as well as someone who helps a friend when the need is there. And his contributions (you know, usable data vs. loudly but rarely backed opinions) to this blog are undeniable.
That said, both of you need to calm down on the personal attacks and actually read what the other is writing. You two are like fighting cocks circling each other with feathers all fluffed up in some show of manliness or economic prowess with more interest in tearing the other head off than in meaningful debate.
When you come with data, articles or other useful information your viewpoints are more than welcome Eddie. When you simply stereotype everyone on this blog in some grotesque generalization and fling insults at us simply because we do not agree with every word that dribbles out of your mouth you move into troll territory and it gets tiresome to say the least. When you have the track record of being right about what will happen in the future, as this blog has been to date, you will earn our respect. But in the very short time you have been here this hasn’t occurred. Calm down. Present better data and arguments. And realize we are only in the second inning of this mess (in the majority viewpoint.) We’ll make predictions on the future at the beginning of the year and 2010 will pass quickly. By 2011 we should know who is more right - the people who have posted here for years like PB or you. That’s the best thing about the blog, the info is archived and you can come back and say “I told you so,” if we are wrong. (Or you can disappear like so many before you if we are right.
)
If it’s any consolation I hope you are right and the economy is recovering. I’m tired of watching so many people going through so much pain. I just don’t see how the problems are getting fixed with the solutions that caused the problems to begin with. So I disagree with you, not because I enjoy the bad news but because I think huge mistakes are being made. Worst case for me if I am wrong? The world gets better and my business increases. Worst case for you if you are wrong? You might lose some asset value you were not expecting. Either way I suspect we will survive so lighten up a bit. Attack arguments and not people and a lot more people will respect what you are saying.
Tricky Dick was before TardoBoy’s time…. by his own admission.
I think the point that Eddie was making is that who you associate with influences your view of the world. We tend to associate with people like us. I was in college in 1972. None of my friends voted for Nixon. Big surprise. We came from similar backgrounds.
People in Detroit think that the economy of the US is much worse than it is, because the economy of Detroit is worse off than in the rest of the country. People on this blog think that the economy is at bigger risk than people who are focused no farther ahead than Christmas Day.
Well said, SD Bear.
Muggy ~ about new credit cards ~ funny you should say that. Just a few days ago I got the first unsolicited credit card offer (some new variant of AmEx) in at least 10 months. Didn’t read the offer to see the specifics .. it just went right into the shredder.
Troll alert, troll alert, troll alert.
- What PB would have said to me had I posed the exact the same thing.
I’ve seen the same thing happen in my neck of the woods. There is a subdivision about 1.5 miles from my house that was built between 2006-2007. About 30 houses on acre+ lots ranging in price between $700-$1M when new. About 1/2 the homes were sold, the others just sat there and sat there, some foreclosing by builders. It’s one of those setups where several builders build the homes, so some builders held out, some threw in the towel and gave the houses back to the lender, some sold.
Anyway, about this time last year my wife and I drove around there and thought these empty houses will be empty 20 years from now. We drove by last month again and much to our surprise almost all the houses were occupied, nicely landscaped, etc. One had a pool being installed. I checked the county assessor records and the sales prices were in the $600k-800K range. So about a 15-20% price drop since they were built. But any dreams of getting those houses for 1/2 off like I had a year ago have definitely vanished.
“But any dreams of getting those houses for 1/2 off like I had a year ago have definitely vanished.”
Prices are ultimately supported by incomes, are they not? Are the incomes in this area high enough to support these prices?
Hard to tell. The way zoning is around here, you have $1M homes next to $200K homes, next to $3M homes, next to shacks that could be had for $30K. So if you look at zip code income or city income it’s meaningless when dealing with 30 houses sold.
Sounds like southern Louisianna.
Many areas of Houston are like that.
I didn’t go to the stores this weekend, but where I live it was probably business as usual.
This isn’t like you Eddie. It sounds like you’re whining and looking for some sympathy.
I’m not whining, I’m telling you what I observed.
Whining would be this:
“It’s so unfair that the evil capitalist banksters got rich while I can’t afford a mansion even though I’m smarter and better looking than all of them. Someone should tax those evil banksters at 95% and give me the money so I can get that mansion which I deserve because I rented a 2 bedroom apartment for the past 20 years waiting for the collapse and darn it, life just isn’t fair.”
Eddie …you don’t look at the real price that is being payed for these artificial prop ups and you have no sympathy for the knife catchers at all …where did your heart go ?
The funny thing about evil capitalist banksters and wallstreeters
that should of been BK by now ,rather than prospering ,is they have to run to mommy and scream ….”Mommy …Mommy ,
bail me out ,I cheated and it didn’t work ,come on Mommy bail me out .” I think I would rather bitch than be a mommy boy who can’t earn anything they get the good old fashion way .
Lets play Whats My Line …Who is this ..
FIRE ,FIRE ….Give me a Blank Check for 700 billion in unmarked bills ,no requirements in how I spend it , with immunity ,and I need it in 2 days .
Whats my line ,who am I ?
“Oh, I know. I know. Call on me. I know this one. It’s Hank “the human penis” Paulson. Yeeeessssss. I got it right. What did I win?”
Patience… This ain’t over.
Went to my sis’ for Thanksgiving. Very nice neighborhood, Smoke Rise in Kinnelon NJ. Gated. The house next door was up for sale last year as the couple was divorcing. The guy was living in it alone. It didn’t sell, and now there are six cars in the driveway.
I said “Hey the guy next door must be doing OK?” Sis says “No. His Ex moved back in because they couldn’t afford two places and can’t sell the house. They boarded off part of the house for a tenant to help pay the mortgage.”
Cars in the driveway doesn’t tell the whole story.
Cars in the driveway doesn’t tell the whole story.
Actually, six cars in the driveway really tells a story!
How does one just ‘board off’ part of a home? Is this a large McMansion that is now like a rat’s maze inside?
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Depends on the McMansion. You can turn a man-cave into an apartment if there is a way to get outside. You could add a kitchenette to a master suite and make it a studio. The problem is the staircases.
If you’re willing to share common areas a la undocumenteds, you simply put a lock on the door to each “princess suite.”
Cars in the driveway doesn’t tell the whole story
x1 car for him
x1 car for her
x4 cars for her new “boyfriends”
It’s O.K., to reverse the scenario.
My car comment was misunderstood, unless y’all are talking about something else. I was referring to open houses that we went to. For the past few years there is seldom anyone there but us. Yesterday we were at two that had 5+ cars.
I mentioned the states because, to some extent, I really am competing with retirees bringing down cash from Michigan, Ohio, New York, etc. This is where the generational warfare takes hold for me: I am competing against pensioners that progressed through “the golden era” of post-war America. I’m not complaining, just acknowledging that i wouldn’t have this issue if I wanted to live, in say, the ‘burbs of Rochester. There was a couple my parent’s age from Kentucky rollin’ in a Beamer… I don’t expect to “win” the house war against a couple like that. Although I will complain about this: it’s entirely annoying that that generation wants to downsize to the same friggin’ thing I’m looking for.
I had college friends who lived in Smoke Rise. It was a magical place 30 years ago. I was raised in Essex Fells, NJ.
“Troll alert, troll alert, troll alert.”
Thanks for the warning.
See above post re: dense lib.
Eddie It is not what you say? It is how you say it. I respect your freedom of speech however it appears that you are just looking for attention even if it is negative. My sincere advice is not to bet against the hbb crowed.
You will loose.
Lose. Actually, Eddie could stand a little “loosing.”
Comment by Eddie
2009-11-29 09:26:04
See above post re: dense lib.
——————
See SD Bear’s response to your stupid post.
As someone who has also met PB in person, I can assure you that he is highly educated, intelligent, and has never come across as a “lib.”
PB is well known and respected here. You are not. Stop with the personal attacks.
Knife catchers and moat fillers IMHO. Real* house prices should be ready for another leg down soon. And even though you buy a house with nominal dollars, there seems little reason to jump on now, unless you find your particular dream house at an affordable price. Be patient and, SAVE for a real downpayment. When we’re near bottom, a seasoned** 20% down will go a long way.
*In this case, adjusted by INCOMES rather than CPI. Rising prices for other stuff doesn’t improve affordability, only rising incomes or expanding credit allows people to afford to pay more for a house.
**Remember those? Lenders used to check your bank statements ensuring that you’d had your downpayment in there for 6 months. To make sure that it wasn’t an undocumented loan that you’d have to reapy.
“Troll alert, troll alert, troll alert. What PB would have said to me had I posed the exact the same thing.”
That’s because I write about what I am experiencing, and you write about the way you choose to see things.
If your goal for now involves children you would likely do best in fly-over country where life is slower paced, and you could live five or ten minutes from your place of employment. It’s easy to search out thriving small towns online by looking for a Walmart Super Center and two mainstream fast food outlets like McDonalds and Burger King. The ideal city will have a population of roughly 5,000, and they will be the natural hub for folks who live in rural settings. You should locate no more than two hours from a large metro area where you can get major medical services. If you have a functional college degree you’ll be able to have a stay at home mom too.
And you won’t have to worry about retirement accounts either since you will have blown your head off due to extreme boredom before reaching 55 years of age.
You won’t be bored with the variety of churches available.
I really like what you’re saying, and my parents came from an area just as you describe, but my wife needs 1. civilization 2. family. This means upstate NY, or Pinellas County, FL. Unfortunately, the upstate NY education market is saturated.
I have found some areas of Pinellas that I love but they’re far north and isolated. I few months back I mentioned a log home on five acres — I’d be all over that, but that’s too isolated for wifey.
I prefer the city limits myself, no water well, no septic tank, etc., which always means spending $5k-plus. Having acreage means working when you get off work — no thanks!
You won’t miss anything from the big city while the kids are young and mom is at home because you will have to save your money, not waste it on fun; that’s what the poor do, and that’s why everyone else has to pay for their basic necessities.
rms, that may have been true decades ago, but towns that size are dying now. Unless they are close enough to a metro area to serve as a bedroom community, they will decline (even more) in the coming decades.
Small manufacturing, which used to provide jobs to these kinds of towns, got moved first to Mexico with NAFTA and then to China. There’s a primary source of income gone. Small farms continue to get consolidated - instead of a bunch of farm families that can support an economy, you have one family farming thousands of acres - not enough to keep a town viable. Unless those towns have a meat packing plant and are importing illegal aliens, their populations will continue to decline. A local economy can’t be based on Wal-Mart and fast food outlets. Even if you have a college degree, just what kind of employment do you think is going to be available? The whole rural economy was based on manufacturing and small farms, and both are largely gone.
Young people will continue to leave for bigger cities when they get out of high school, compounding the problem. Even if they liked the small town lifestyle and wanted to stay - no jobs. Small towns in flyover country are already the new slums in the US thanks to globalism. They will probably continue to get worse as this recession/depression deepens. Not a place I would pick to live, unless you like meth dealers and increased crime.
The idea that this is anything new is kind of odd to me. I got the hell out of the second largest city in WA state (200k) and have never looked back. Who wants to compete with all the people swarming in from those outlying areas who think it is the Big City.
The most employed of my stay-at-home friends was promoted to taxi dispatcher. I heard rumors one was fired from a job as a strip club manager. The security guard may be a CEO by now.
Rural America has some of the highest number of oxycontin addicts, percentage-wise, in the country.
Steve Earle sings of such woes.
“Rural America has some of the highest number of oxycontin addicts, percentage-wise, in the country.”
No shortage of obesity either!
My father got out of the coal mining area of Virginia in the late 1940’s. I haven’t been back in about 30 years, but it was dead then. It’s hard to imagine that things have improved.
“My father got out of the coal mining area of Virginia in the late 1940’s.”
You should read Glass Castle by Jeanette Walls if you haven’t already. Coal Country is on my short list for ‘literary tourism.’
“rms, that may have been true decades ago, but towns that size are dying now. Unless they are close enough to a metro area to serve as a bedroom community, they will decline (even more) in the coming decades.”
A strategic location is important. Lompoc, CA is near Vandenberg, AFB, which is the only “polar orbit” launching facility in the U.S., as an example. How about a small town along a navigable river, or maybe a major railway switching facility. In my case, I am located near the Columbia River’s huge hydro power facilities; electricity isn’t going out of style anytime soon. Yes, there are dead towns all around here, but Walmart’s due diligence didn’t suggest building a store in any of them, but they did build near me.
Raising a family in a purchased home is fraught with financial risk anywhere you look. I stood a better chance of losing more money if I purchased in a California metro area than here in the Columbia Basin. I really, truly hate the winters up here, but I’m financially solvent, and my family is doing well; public support not required. I might take a loss when I decide to leave the area, but I’ll be able to absorb the hit, unlike a California home.
I should have mentioned that Lompoc, CA has a huge housing bubble despite the lack of income necessary to support its high prices.
Stay away! Stay away!. Its horribly boring here in flyover country. Stay where you are! They need your tax dollars! Its horrid here. No action. Even the homeless hate it so much here that we give them busfare to the coasts at this time of year! Cold, snow, cloudy, dark, dismal! Ohio is losing population because its so bad. Stay away!
Here’s what 200K buys in my neck of the woods. Median HH income out here is in the upper 50’s.
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2080-Chancery-Dr_Loveland_CO_80537_1114259334
Administration plans new efforts on foreclosures
By MARTIN CRUTSINGER
The Associated Press
Updated: 6:31 a.m. Sunday, Nov. 29, 2009
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WASHINGTON — The Obama administration, battling a foreclosure crisis that shows no signs of relenting, will step up pressure on mortgage companies to do more to help people remain in their homes, officials said Saturday.
The administration will announce its expanded program on Monday, Treasury spokeswoman Meg Reilly said.
“We are taking additional steps to enhance servicer transparency and accountability,” Reilly said. She said the goal was to increase the rate that troubled home loans were converted into new loans with lower monthly payments.
Industry officials said the new effort would include increased pressure on mortgage companies to accelerate loan modifications by highlighting firms that are lagging in that area.
The Treasury is also expected to announce that it will wait until the loan modifications are permanent before paying cash incentives to mortgage companies that lower loan payments.
Under the $75 billion Treasury program, companies that agree to lower payments for troubled borrowers collect $1,000 initially from the government for each loan, followed by $1,000 annually for up to three years.
The government support, which is provided from the $700 billion financial bailout program, is aimed at providing cash incentives for mortgage providers to accept smaller mortgage payments rather than foreclosing on homes.
The program has come under heavy criticism for failing to do enough to attack a tidal wave of foreclosures. Analysts said the foreclosure crisis is likely to persist well into next year as high unemployment pushes more people out of their homes.
Rising foreclosures depress home prices and threaten the sustainability of the fledgling economic recovery.
A report last week from the Mortgage Bankers Association found that 14 percent of homeowners with mortgages were either behind on payments or in foreclosure at the end of September, a record level for the ninth straight quarter.
The Congressional Oversight Panel, a committee that monitors spending under Treasury’s bailout program, concluded in a report last month that foreclosures are now threatening families who took out conventional, fixed-rate mortgages and put down payments of 10 to 20 percent on homes that would have been within their means in a normal market.
Treasury’s program, known as the Home Affordable Modification Program, “is targeted at the housing crisis as it existed six months ago, rather than as it existsright now,” the report said.
Scott Talbott, senior vice president of government affairs for the Financial Services Roundtable, said the industry supported many of the changes Treasury was proposing.
But he said the foreclosure problem, which began with heavy defaults on subprime mortgages, was expanding to more traditional types of mortgages because of unemployment which has now hit a 26-year high of 10.2 percent.
“The subprime problem has regrettably morphed into an unemployment problem,” Talbott said. He said there was no government program to help the unemployed who are in danger of losing their homes but “many private lenders are modifying loans for the unemployed on their own.”
Treasury’s Reilly said the expanded program would, among other steps, make more aid available to struggling borrowers and expand the number of organizations providing help.
was expanding to more traditional types of mortgages because of unemployment which has now hit a 26-year high of 10.2 percent. The subprime problem has regrettably morphed into an unemployment problem,” Talbott said.
I call BS on this lobbyist. Those loans were going to balloon/reset anyway as per the Credit Suisse graph, job or no job. How many of them were cash-out refi’s into a neg-am? I saw an NYT(?) graph once (could never find it again) which showed that 25%(?) of California’s cash-out refi’s were neg-am.
“The subprime problem has regrettably morphed into an unemployment problem.”
My, what a surprise. How could anyone have ever predicted anything like this could ever happen?
It’s hard to imagine that an economy grown on building houses that people can’t afford based on credit that they can’t repay would unwind when the people didn’t pay and the credit was pulled, and that people would loose their jobs, and prices would come down and then people would ….
The AP is coming pretty close to saying we are in a spiral.
Somebody call Hank Paulson and BB because aren’t they going to save us ? Didn’t they save us over a year ago ? Can’t stand thinking I was saved and it wasn’t true . Maybe I got to save myself ……..from them !
“My, what a surprise. How could anyone have ever predicted anything like this could ever happen?”
Five years is an eternity for immature adults who live in the perpetual present as well as mortgage brokers writing Alt-A and Option-ARM home loans.
It’s certainly long enough to to make money on the way up and make money on the way down and make money on the front end and make money on the back end and then hand out record bonuses even after destroying your own market.
Rising foreclosures depress home prices and threaten the sustainability of the fledgling economic recovery.
———————–
I’m calling BS on this oft-repeated meme.
Foreclosures force out the weak hands who volunteered to take on debt they couldn’t repay and/or those who didn’t budget for difficult times.
Foreclosures will lower prices to a level where families can buy homes at **affordable prices** that won’t force them into future foreclosure/bankruptcy. If working families can buy affordable houses, then they will have extra money to spend in the real economy (housing is NOT the economy!!!).
U.S. Will Push Mortgage Firms to Reduce More Loan Payments.
New York Times
The Obama administration on Monday plans to announce a campaign to pressure mortgage companies to reduce payments for many more troubled homeowners, as evidence mounts that a $75 billion taxpayer-financed effort aimed at stemming foreclosures is foundering.
In February, President Obama announced the program to help keep people in their homes.
“The banks are not doing a good enough job,” Michael S. Barr, Treasury’s assistant secretary for financial institutions, said in an interview Friday. “Some of the firms ought to be embarrassed, and they will be.”
Even as lenders have in recent months accelerated the pace at which they are reducing mortgage payments for borrowers, a vast majority of loans modified through the program remain in a trial stage lasting up to five months, and only a tiny fraction have been made permanent.
Mr. Barr said the government would try to use shame as a corrective, publicly naming those institutions that move too slowly to permanently lower mortgage payments. The Treasury Department also will wait until reductions are permanent before paying cash incentives that it promised to mortgage companies that lower loan payments.
“They’re not getting a penny from the federal government until they move forward,” Mr. Barr said.
“Mr. Barr said the government would try to use shame as a corrective, publicly naming those institutions that move too slowly to permanently lower mortgage payments.”
How about a public flogging!!! That`s it, a Flogging Czar!!!
When all else fails, revert back to 3rd world tactics.
“Under the $75 billion Treasury program, companies that agree to lower payments for troubled borrowers collect $1,000 initially from the government for each loan, followed by $1,000 annually for up to three years.”
With all of the motives for short term profits, I’m wondering if the bank still gets the $1,000 annually if the borrower defaults after 2 years.;-)
Okay…that’s actually a good question!
“They’re not getting a penny from the federal government until they move forward,” Mr. Barr said.
Mr. Barr or Mr. Grinch
You’re a foul one, Mr. Barr.
You’re a nasty, wasty skunk.
Your heart is full of unwashed socks
Your soul is full of gunk.
Mr. Barr.
The three words that best describe you,
are, and I quote: “Stink. Stank. Stunk.”
Well done jeff.
Now I have to go watch the Grinch Who Stole Christmas. The dog is my favorite character.
How disconnected from reality these guys in the White House are. Make a list of banks that are not giving people something for nothing. The people will be shocked! The banks’ good reputations will be sullied!
How will the banks react? Could this lead to a parting of the ways? Maybe a little market tumult just to show who’s the boss?
BINGO. My thoughts exactly. What if the banks or mortgage lenders decide not to lower the payments?
If the gov pulls TARP, or that aid to AIG, or if Fannie/Freddie pull their loan guarantees, then banks will be forced to value their MBS assets then and there. But then we’re back to that same “OMG OMG too big to fail we’re looking into the abyss we’re gonna have a depression” mindset.
Looks like a lot of the players have painted themselves into a corner.
“U.S. Will Push Mortgage Firms to Reduce More Loan Payments.
New York Times”
This makes me sick to my core…savers and prudent individuals will pay the price for the stupid, criminal and clueless masses.
Just kick me right in the nuts - I don’t qualify to have my payment or principal crammed down. Maybe I should have followed the path of my idiot neighbors and over-leveraged, overbought and sucked money that will now be “written off”
Disgusting
I know I wouldn’t qualify either . Disgusting is the perfect word to describe what is going on Watching the Carnage .
Firstly ,I think this to big to fall is a myth anyway . I have never seen proof that the meltdown wouldn’t of spread out the loss
had the normal Bk laws and standing law at the time just
prevailed .I don’t see that Main Street was spared anything by these bail-outs and its unreal seeing Wall Street and Banks give out these incomes when Main Street is taking in the you know what . Just a total waste of money that could of been spent in a more constructive way .
That whole Drama that played out with Hank Paulson was so bogus . You could see the set up for it months ahead of
time . When BB opened up the Fed Discount Window to anybody,you knew the way it was going to go .
Absolutely agree 100%, Wiz!
Hotel owners, like home owners, behind on payments
Return to lender: US hotel owners, like home owners, going delinquent on debt.
MIAMI (AP) — Like many home owners, hotels are starting to drown in debt.
They have been enticing travelers all year with sweet deals: credits for in-house spas and restaurants, up to 50 percent off five-star rooms, even free nights.
But all that discounting hasn’t stopped occupancy from dropping an average of 10 percent. The result? Hotel loans have begun falling into delinquency faster than any other kind of commercial real estate debt.
The rising defaults paint a grim picture for an industry with increasingly more rooms than guests, and more hotels still opening every day. It’s a problem that could get worse before it gets better, with demand expected to remain weak and ambitious new projects planned before the meltdown worsening the room glut.
The oversupply means room rates should stay low for at least another year, good news for consumers but not so great for hotel owners and the banks that lent them the cash to build or buy.
The rise in delinquencies is sharp. Five times more hotel loans are behind on payments this year than in 2008, according to mortgage data firm Trepp LLC, which tracks those traded by investors. In October, 8.7 percent were distressed, compared with 1.5 percent last year.
More money about to poofed out of existence.
Let’s sing it together
Cash is King
King is cash
Cash is King.
Now everybody at hbb at the same time. Repeat after me Cash iiiiiiiiiisssssss King
Until the .dxy falls from 74 to the 40s….Even with the Dubai fears, the .dxy is still south of 75.
If the strength of the Yen from a country with worse debt issues than the US doesn’t scare you away from Fiat currencies, nothing will.
I enjoyed (and gagged at) the last paragraph of the article:
“Starwood CEO Frits van Paasschen brushes off critics. . . . ‘I think luxury - taking care of yourself, taking care of your family and those around you - is so fundamental to the human experience.’ ”
We’ll know that we’ve reached bottom when nobody thinks that luxury is fundamental to the human experience.
I can take care of my self and my family without having the so called luxury 5 star bed bug ridden hotel experience.
I’ve heard about the bed bug problem up there. Imigration is great, isn’t it?
Yes, the bed bugs came from New York and Chicago
They used to freeze every winter but now they can survive because of global warmening, I mean climate change. I’ve got some emails right here that prove it, once you adjust away the inconvenient data outliers. I blame George Bush. (and Al Gore).
I must admit that the bed bug thing is creeping me out. I traveled a lot over the past two months and kept wondering about bed bugs. I don’t have to travel until Feb and am very pleased about it.
“There is a strong case for a continued role for the Federal Reserve in bank supervision,” says Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke. “Because of our role in making making monetary policy, the Fed brings unparalleled economic and financial expertise to its oversight of banks.”
~ This is a preview of what you’ll hear next Thursday when Dr. Bernanke faces the Senate Banking Committee. The “Audit the Fed” bill is making the Fed chairman squirm. Criticism of the banking cartel is very heavy and could result in some of its secrecy being peeled away.
“Because of our role in making making monetary policy, the Fed brings unparalleled economic and financial expertise to its oversight of banks.”
—————–
Isn’t this the same “unparalleled economic and financial expertise” that brought us the credit/housing bubble in the first place.
And weren’t the posters here at the HBB presumably more aware of what was going on than the “experts” at the Fed?
Maybe we should be in charge of monetary policy instead?
There are a couple of memes that have emerged in this bubble that I have been ruminating over the last few days.
The first comes from Kunstler, and has been echoed and/or written about by other authors as well, and that is that our society is too large, and our systems are too complicated. The result is that we’re headed for EPIC FAIL. I’m not convinced that the 30,000 Caesar Salad is going to kill us on all. For one thing, when a tiny piece of a complex system (say, a trucking hub in Arkansas goes bankrupt) a smaller piece of the system grows into the role, or a larger piece sizes down to smooth over the loss. Kunstler talks about rescaling everything locally. I don’t understand how having one supermarket fed by a few local growers, is more stable than multiple supermarkets fed by thousands of global growers. In this sense, globalization is better for all of us. Large, complicated systems are better than getting your potatoes from the dude down the road.
The second, and this is where I would agree with Kunstler, is that the term ‘recovery’ is ridiculous. When my wife and I cruise for homes, we see tons of graying men with old muscle cars in their overstuffed garages. I for one will not be buying boomer junk. There is no way possible we can ‘recover’ to what we’ve had in the last 60 years. I talked to my buddy last night for a long time — I’ve mentioned him before, he’s my Cravath lawyer buddy — and he is the only guy I know that can afford basically anything he wants (his wife is also a successful NYC atty) and they aren’t interested in buying authentic Batman toys, or Cabbage Patch kids, or Manhattan condos. Politicians keep saying ‘recovery,’ but not a single one can describe that in any meaningful way. Does that mean every Joe the Plumber is barreling down the street in an H2 towing
two ‘personal’ watercraft? Because that’s what ‘growth’ looked like.
“I cruise for homes, we see tons of graying men with old muscle cars in their overstuffed garages.”
Have you seen prices for those “old muscle cars”?
A friend of mine - 32 yo, no gray hairs as far as I know - had a 69 Camaro, beautiful car. Paid $30k for it 4/5 years ago. It was stolen recently, he got $36K insurance money. Not a bad investment. And when he did have it, he was being offered money for it on the spot. I was with him once, we stopped to get gas, guy next to him walks right up and asks how much you want for it, I’ll buy it today, cash.
My father in law bought a junked 67 Mustang, restored himself and now he figures he could sell it anywhere from $28-32K. And same thing, he gets unsolicited offers for it often.
Look at sales of the new Camaro which was designed to look like a 60s/70s muscle car. Those things are flying off the dealer lots. There is a huge demand for that era’s cars. Don’t underestimate the demand/value of those “old cars”. Even in a recession.
Plus, the cars from that era are easier for an individual to work on / repair themselves.
My first was a ‘69 Chevy Nova… fond memories, even though not a “muscle” car…
67-69 nova was incredible
350 w fueley heads
wowowowowowo
My ex had a 69 chevy nova. I loved driving that car.
Have you seen prices for those “old muscle cars”?
Very high. However I read that it is a boomer thing, owning hot-rods of their youth.
However, those younger than boomers don’t have the same attachment to such cars, therefore the demand will drop as boomers do as well. Who knows.
Not so, if my son and his friends are any indication.
Not so. If you get a chance watch one of the auctions on tv. You’ll see that a majority of dudes bidding are below boomer age. It may be a fad right now to own a classic muscle car but even so, there’s a limited supply of these cars out there that is getting smaller every year. Simple economics dictates that prices will hold up into the future.
Simple economics indicates that when the biggest credit bubble in history comes back to earth, there will be less money for collectables and toys.
My friend and father in law used no credit to buy the cars. Stop assuming everyone uses a credit card or a loan for everything. This is why none of you understand how is it possible homes are selling, black Friday sales are up, etc. In your world everyone (but you of course) is a penniless fool who has 12 credit cards each used to buy everything from gas to food to collectible cars.
Try heading out to reality every now and then, you’ll see a whole different world out there where millions of people have good jobs, lots of money in the bank and can afford to splurge on a classic muscle car without taking out a loan. I know it’s beyond your imagination that such a place exists, but it does.
Try heading out to reality every now and then, you’ll see a whole different world out there where millions of people have good jobs, lots of money in the bank and can afford to splurge on a classic muscle car without taking out a loan. I know it’s beyond your imagination that such a place exists, but it does.
Ok, so where is this place? I’m not familiar with it either.
Technovelist wrote: “Ok, so where is this place? I’m not familiar with it either.”
Eddie neglected to mention that you need to smoke a lot of weed before you can see it.
No, I’m afraid Eddie is right on this. There IS plenty of liquidity out there. But it’s become more concentrated into fewer hands in various ways.
It’s not third world yet, (and if we’re lucky, never will) but there is a definite trend of a shrinking middle class and increasing poverty that also involve millions of people.
Eddie, if we’re such a bunch of unimaginitive and somehow simultaneously unrealistic people, why do you spend so much of your time with us? When I was your age I was so busy working and taking care of my family that I didn’t have any extra time. Now I have leisure time and like to spend it reading posts here. What’s your excuse?
I know who those people are and where the place is that Eddie is talking about . They
work at Wall Street and they get big money from the
taxpayers . I’m sure those people aren’t caught going to
regular people’s haunts …he he he .
Don’t listen to Eddie “The Troll”. The collector car market was in a massive bubble, fueled by home equity and easy credit, and prices have already cracked. Just look at this year’s Barret Jackson auction in Scottsdale. The prices paid were WAY down. For instance:
1969 Camaro ZL-1
2007 sold price- $880,000
2009 sold price- $319,000
1969 429 Boss Mustang
2007 sold price- $605,000
2009 sold price- $209,000
1970 Plymouth Hemi Cuda
2007 sold price- $550,000
2009 sold price- $198,000
And, these are the cream of the crop, numbers matching, low production volume, low mileage models, not those phony baloney clones that some mullet head created in his backyard using a run of the mill high production model. Gone are the days of getting $30k plus for a mass produced 1969 Camaro just because it looks and drives “sweet”. You’d be lucky to get $15k for your garden variety muscle car now. Keep dreaming Eddie, you have not a freaking clue what you’re talking about.
I have a 69 Camaro (RS/SS) that I drug home 20 years ago on a trailer and spent years restoring . My hobby is cars and I’m not a car flipper for a quick buck . Flippers have ruined the hobby for the younger guys looking to restore cars.
“Have you seen prices for those “old muscle cars”?”
Next time you’re in the Bay Area, cruise up 19, Alt 19, across Gulf-to-Bay, Park Blvd. The number of “cool cars” for sale is astounding. So yes, I have seen the prices for “old muscle cars,” I also see them all for sale, and not on the road.
There’s cool and there’s classic. Never confuse the two.
And you seldom see these on the road. That’s what makes the collectibles. You don’t buy a 69 Camaro to drive to work every day in bumper to bumper traffic. Most of these cars don’t even have A/C, so yeah chances are in Tampa they’re not out and about too often.
“Make offer!”
http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/ctd/1485073119.html
“its my baby but cant afford to have luxuries at this moment!”
http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/cto/1484300035.html
“1967 Mustang 23k”
http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/cto/1469811759.html
“Sorry, no trades. I need the cash for another project.”
http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/cto/1469678488.html
yeah I thought that muscle cars were yet another bubble that popped when everything else fell apart.
“My father in law bought a junked 67 Mustang, restored himself and now he figures he could sell it anywhere from $28-32K. And same thing, he gets unsolicited offers for it often.”
Very close to my home is a business that restores and sells old Mustangs. I’ve always wanted a 60’s Mustang convertible but as I don’t have the skills to keep it up myself or the money to pay someone else to do it, I will never have one. (Unless I someday have a very handy hubby or permanent SO.) But I’ve stopped in a few times and was surprised by the prices. You could get a beautiful ‘66 Mustang for about $12,000. Convertibles were more but I didn’t see anything near $32,000. And this was during the boom times so lots of overpriced buying going on. This is just antidotal and my area may be a bad area for buying old cars (but it seems like people would be willing to go anywhere in San Diego county for a great old car) but I’d be surprised if he could get that much in this economy. However, don’t quote on this as I may be looking at bad data or trusting a faulty memory.
International Paper shuts three mills, laying off 1,600 workers.
On October 23, International Paper announced the closure of three plants, resulting in the loss of 1,600 jobs. By mid-December, the closures will leave 270 workers in Albany, Oregon, and 230 workers in Pineville, Louisiana, without jobs. Most devastating is the spring 2010 closure of an enormous mill in Franklin, Virginia, which will result in 1,100 job cuts.
International Paper is the largest pulp and paper maker in the world, with production facilities in North America, Latin America, Europe, North Africa and Asia. The plants in Albany and Pineville produce containerboard, which is used to make corrugated cardboard. International Paper’s production capacity for containerboard will be reduced by nearly 1 million tons, or 12 percent, as a result of the closures.
The paper mill in Franklin produces both uncoated freesheet and coated paperboard. Uncoated freesheet paper is used for book publishing, business and office printing, envelopes and stationary. The shutdown of the mill’s uncoated freesheet operation will eliminate 600,000 tons, or 19 percent, of International Paper’s production capacity. Coated paperboard is used for book covers, greeting cards, direct-mail advertising and other products. International Paper will cut its coated paperboard production capacity by 140,000 tons, or 7 percent.
When I was 19, I briefly lived in Chillicothe, Ohio, where there is a Mead paper factory. I was on a double-date when a horrible stench wafted into my nostrils. I said, “who farted?!” and my girl said, “it’s Mead,” but what I heard was, “it’s me.”
I said, “I can’t believe you farted on our first date!” She said, “I said M E A D, asshole.”
Lol. You said that on your first date?
On my first date I said: “I’m a man of few words; Let’s have sex.”
“Your place or mine?”
“Well, if you’re going to argue about it, forget it.”
That’s funny. A real gas.
Odd Wmbz Ive been buying boxes for my ebay sales at the local Public Storage and they have been very short of boxes the last few months. Staples wants to sell them only in 3-5-10 packs..
You pay for boxes? I just drop in at Wally-world or any retail store around here and grab ‘em up. Of course, you have to time it right, when the workers are unloading new merch and have the empty boxes on the floor. Or haunt the back areas like loading docks to grab them before they go to the recycling compactor.
Yeah i pay for boxes because sometimes i need specialized sizes
The 14×14x14 box is perfect to ship records in with plenty of space on all sides for Styrofoam and bubble wrap..
And you know about rack mount equipment most boxes are either 18″ wont fit or 24″ so there is a lot wasted area to fill.
Otherwise i do get boxes from CL free when people move in here it easy.
DJ:
How would you go about shipping 100 records for a move from Southern CA to WA? How much might it cost? My son wants to take them along in the moving truck, but I told him they’d likely melt. Then he wanted to ship them ahead (to WA relatives,) but I wondered about temperature control.
Thanks,
I know I’m not DJ and he knows more than me about records but….I shipped a few hundred records in a metal 20 foot container to Rio. The temps probably reached 140 degrees in that thing. The records made it fine but they were jammed against each other so they couldn’t warp.
Thanks for the tip, Rio.
Paper company shuts down plants as society turns increasingly paperless. In other news, dog bites man this afternoon.
Possibly not the only dynamic in play here. Did your office reduce paper usage in the past few months? Mine did, by writing fewer orders.
Only 19 % of the total production is affected by the shut down and the shut down takes place in America ,in spite of the fact that we most likely use more paper than any one else in the World ? Guess I better go out and stock up on boxes and paper crap .
Note not a word about closing overseas factories.
I believe its time to slap a 1000% tariff/tax on these company’s.
Protectionism should be or motto not globalism.
But if something like that ever happened I would be shocked.
Look up Smoot-Hawley and its lovely impacts.
My understanding is that net exporters of the time (like the US) were damaged by GD1’s protectionism, but that nations like Great Britain were aided by the boost to domestic manufacturing.
Seems like we would occupy Britain’s spot now.
+1 alpha. So other countries are going to slap tariffs on the products we export, like… guns and GMO rice?
My understanding is that net exporters of the time (like the US) were damaged by GD1’s protectionism, but that nations like Great Britain were aided by the boost to domestic manufacturing.
I don’t see why that would matter. Tariffs and restrictions are major problems whether you’re trying to import or export.
Tariffs and restrictions are major problems whether you’re trying to import or export
Britain’s advantage, like ours today, is that they could not only sustain their empire with their own manufacturing/farming, but that it worked out to their advantage. Wow, imagine that. A working class with actual (not borrowed) money to spend stimulates the domestic economy! Whodathunk?
Agree with the protectionists. We have far more to gain by protectionism than lose at this point.
One of our greatest strengths is our ability to sustain ourselves, especially agriculture. We have to be sure we are not selling our greatest assets to foreign entities “by mistake,” though… We might soon find out that we don’t really own those farms or mines or anything else here. China does.
Ca renter …Love your mind …..
Thanks, Wiz. The feeling is mutual.
The Safety Net.
Across U.S., Food Stamp Use Soars and Stigma Fades.
New York Times
It has grown so rapidly in places so diverse that it is becoming nearly as ordinary as the groceries it buys. More than 36 million people use inconspicuous plastic cards for staples like milk, bread and cheese, swiping them at counters in blighted cities and in suburbs pocked with foreclosure signs.
Virtually all have incomes near or below the federal poverty line, but their eclectic ranks testify to the range of people struggling with basic needs. They include single mothers and married couples, the newly jobless and the chronically poor, longtime recipients of welfare checks and workers whose reduced hours or slender wages leave pantries bare.
While the numbers have soared during the recession, the path was cleared in better times when the Bush administration led a campaign to erase the program’s stigma, calling food stamps “nutritional aid” instead of welfare, and made it easier to apply.
I’ve been trying to get my sister to get food stamps for years. She refuses. And she’s always hungry, but paranoid about getting help from the government. Yet she won’t hesitate to ask help from individuals.
My own “food stamp” program in 2010 involve a bimonthly trip to the coin shop and selling a gold coin to buy me groceries and utilities.
Being on the food stamp program is a snap. In fact, that’s the name of this immensely popular welfare program. The Food Stamp program changed its name last year to “Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)”.
It is totally inappropriate, of course, for us to refer to this program as “welfare.” That word is being expunged from use because it might cause some sense of gratitude and even obligation among recipients. There used to be a stigma attached to being on welfare, but that is being phased out. And stamps are no longer issued. Recipients use an inconspicuous plastic card to buy groceries.
Virtually all have incomes near or below the federal poverty line, ($22,050 for a family of four) but their ranks include a wide range of people struggling with basic needs. They include single mothers and married couples, the newly jobless and the chronically poor, longtime recipients of welfare checks and workers whose reduced hours or slender wages leave pantries bare.
Include the wives of servicemen in Iraq.
When I was in the army I Spc4 I know ended up on welfare. His Co brought him in and told him if he didnt get of welfare, he you article 15 him. My friend told him if he did that he would have to get more welfare. In the 90s the army thought it made them look bad to have soldiers on assistance.
When I was in the Army in 75-78, I knew married soliders with families, who were on welfare. They couldn’t live on the post, and could barely afford to live off the post.
Hmm, maybe we should have called all of the various trillions of dollars of bank bailouts “welfare”. That way, perhaps the recipients might have had the same sense of gratitude and even obligation you mention as not being present among the more traditional welfare recipients, instead of the arrogance and conviction of entitlement they display. It’s odd how much in common wealthy investment bankers have in common with unwed ghetto mothers and crack addicts. Really, they are just a class of welfare queens on a grand scale, producing absolutely nothing in return.
+1,000,000!
Here in MD, they issue a credit card type product emblazoned with fancy graphics and is called the “Independence” card - funny how just two little letters make such a difference in reality. “Dependence”
It was mentioned in the first posting today, but here’s a live link to the map.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/11/28/us/20091128-foodstamps.html?hp
Whoa — check out Kentucky.
Tennessee and Kentucky have been destroyed over the last 20 years from reductions in textiles mfg and textile farming and all the support industries as well as the reduction in tobacco farming and mfg.
Where did it go? Textiles went offshore, of course.
“Whoa — check out Kentucky.”
Same with Oregon too.
I wonder if you can use food stamps to buy classic muscle cars?
Not anymore. When stamps were still actual stamps, deadbeats walked out of the welfare office and immediately sold the stamps for cash. Generally they bought booze and drugs, but if you saved up enough. That was one reason for the EBT card.
My wife worked at a Wilson Farms during college (we look back at that now, and can’t believe she did that — they had an armed guard during her shift, and that was evening, not overnight) and people sold stamps outside for cash all of the time. Sometimes people would come in, use stamps for food, take the remaining outside, sell for cash, and come back in and buy beer.
I used to make her dinner and walk it down to her. Aww..
Court makes ruling in Wal-Mart Quebec store closing case.
(WiredPRNews.com - Law, News)
The Supreme Court of Canada ruled Friday that Wal-Mart had a legal right to close a Quebec based store following opposition of a labor union.
Canada’s Supreme Court rules in favor of the retail giant.
Toronto, Canada (WiredPRNews.com) – Canada’s high court has ruled in favor of Wal-Mart Stores Inc. in a case regarding the closing of a store in Quebec. As reported by the Associated Press (AP), the Supreme Court of Canada rendered its decision Friday that the retail giant had a legal right to shut down its Jonquiere store, which was opened in 2001, and lay off over 100 employees, after it was sued by a union to halt the action.
Justice Ian Binnie is quoted by the AP as stating of its 6-3 decision that the court, “endorsed the view that no legislation obliges an employer to remain in business” and “the closure did not constitute an unfair labor practice aimed at hindering the union or the employees from exercising rights under the labor code.”
Score one for Wally~World, imagine being ordered to continue to operate a losing proposition. The only entity that can run a business without concern for profit is the gubmint.
While it is ’score one for Wally World,’ a money losing business that just had the costs increased and productivity decreased has to shut down.
I do expect quite a few Wally Worlds to shut down. Not a fraction of other retail, but we’re going to a lower consumption society one defaulted debt at a time.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
“The only entity that can run a business without concern for profit is the gubmint.”
You kill me wmbz, then explain this profitable business:
Dave & Busters
But why don’t they rule that Banks and Investment Houses have a right to shut down if they aren’t cutting the mustard or if they are BK . I don’t think it was right of the Government and the Feds to force financial entities to stay in business . (just kidding )
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.”
~ Frederic Bastiat
Exactly.
I was hoping Obama would keep one freaking promise and that was to bring the troops from from Iraq and Afghanistan, pronto. Instead the bastard not only keeps the wars going, he’s adding an extra 35K soldiers to the dead end mission.
And as an added bonus, a new surtax is being proposed and will likely be enacted in the very short term to fund the wars. About time those rich mother effers pay their share right Exy / PB? Except, oops, the surtax will be on everyone with taxable income. Even low life union thugs that pray to Dear Leader every night before going to bed.
But that can’t be true since Mr. Hope and Change swore up and down there would be no tax increases for the rubes making $250k or less. I believe his exact quote during one of the debates was “If you make under $250K a year, you will not pay one dime more in taxes”. So was he lying then? Or will he weasel out of this by saying it’s not a tax “increase” since the actual tax due is the same but there’s just a special surtax on the tax which really isn’t a tax.
And if you think the surtax will go away once the war is over, you’re naive . There is a surcharge on your phone bill paid today that was instituted to fund the Spanish-American war. Once a tax is implemented, it never goes away.
“If you make under $250K a year, you will not pay one dime more in taxes”. So was he lying then?
Of course he was lying, he is a politician that’s what they do. He hasn’t a clue about any policy, he just reads from a script. His primary concern appears to be practicing his golf swing, and jump shots.
We should shut down the operation in Afghanistan, can’t be ‘won’ and will drag out for years on end. Just my 2 cents.
“We should shut down the operation in Afghanistan…”
And Billy Joel can write a song and name it “Goodnight Kandalahar.”:
“And we all went down together.”
“…We should shut down the operation in Afghanistan, can’t be ‘won’ and will drag out for years on end. Just my 2 cents.”
You & Karl Rove have been saying that for almost 9 years now, only you both seem to be saying it more often since Jan 20th 2009, how come?
(Hwy puts in Billy Joel’s “We didn’t start the FIRE…”)
Now this is a perfect example of the strawman argument. Well done. BTW, when did you stop hitting your wife?
Shrub never hit Laura…although the opposite might explain how he got that black eye while chewing a pretzel.
“Now this is a perfect example of the strawman argument.”
That is quite the compliment coming from the strawman king of the HBB.
Eddie you have this hangup about hitting your wife. Do you hit your wife?
Eddie you have this hangup about hitting your wife
Actually, he’s making a point about the biased comments being made here.
Seriously, guys. Grow the F up. Dispute facts all you want, but this personal crap is tiresome.
“You & Karl Rove”
Who’s Karl Rove? A big bad bogeyman, or a dishonest denizen of D.C.
No that can’t be, perhaps he’s the Dr. Evil mastermind be hind all that is bad. It’s more likely just a vast ‘right wing’ conspiracy, nothing to worry about though.
The good guys are in charge now, they’ll soon have Daisey’s shooting out of guns barrels and everyone swapping spit as they sing the old coke commercial. Finally, world peace! Hallelujah praise Barry.
Whatever floats your boat.
“The good guys are in charge now…”
Live from Dallas Texas:
“hehehehehehehe”
Maybe the current regime is now applauding because Iran today made an announcement it will produce 300 tons of uranium per year. Up from one ton.
Bill…..so there is where the jobs are .
Seriously!
“There is a surcharge on your phone bill paid today that was instituted to fund the Spanish-American war. Once a tax is implemented, it never goes away.”
Ummm, that tax ended in 2006 though it did take 108 years to do away with it.
And let’s not forget that the “income tax” is a war tax that never went away.
Anyone see the connections between taxes and war?
Switzerland, Ireland, and Sweden- all traditionally neutral nations- all have tax rates comparable to us warmakers.
‘Course they get free military protection from us, so it’s not much of a comparison.
‘Course they get free military protection from us, so it’s not much of a comparison.
So by the logic we’re using, they should have even lower tax rates, no? Or did you miss the original point?
So by the logic we’re using, they should have even lower tax rates, no?
No, because they have far more social programs. Thats why we pay XXX% in taxes, same as them, but we get less. Because a lot of the money we spend on our military is money *they* (many European nations, japan, etc), don’t need to spend.
Thats why we pay XXX% in taxes
Sorry, been wasting away the day looking at porn. Obviously, if ‘X’ is a digit, it should be “XX%”.
LOL. ‘XXX%’ is killing me too.
My original point was that being a warmonger nation isn’t the only thing that makes for ‘high’ taxes. I’m not saying we’re the *only* ones with high taxes. Just that they’ll (apparently) always find something to tax you for, war or no.
Plus, I thought it was the ’socialist’ nations that had the high tax rates. Now it’s us warmongers! We should chill out, support the poor, and reap the benefits. Or does the logic not work in that direction?
We should chill out, support the poor, and reap the benefits. Or does the logic not work in that direction?
It’ll only work if some other nation will pay for our defense. I think thats doubtful.
I do agree with you that they’ll always find something to tax us for.
And let’s not forget that the “income tax” is a war tax that never went away.
Anyone see the connections between taxes and war?
“If you expose the army to a prolonged campaign, the state’s resources will be inadquate.”
“No country has ever profited from protracted warfare.”
As quoted from Sun Tzu, The Art of War…
Oh my mistake. Only 108 years, and here I was being negative and thinking the Afghanistan tax would be permanent. Silly me. If it will only last a century or so, then what the hell, let’s do it.
You’re being a bitch now, Eddie.
How shockingly atypical!
Wow — another jingoistic anti-Obama post. Thanks for narrowly sticking to the topics of housing and economics, pal.
Yeah. Just like all your posts about “EddieTard” are right on the housing and economics topic. Never saw you do much complaining about OlyGal’s posts, either, which very rarely had anything to do with housing. I even recall somebody criticizing her once for not staying on target and a bunch of you came out in her defense. I never seem to see you get bent out of shape when ATE_UP continually professes his love for Olygal.
Jeebus. The planks in some of your eyes are beyond belief.
I call my trolls as I see ‘em. If you don’t like to see me shoot from the hip, then feel free to skip my posts.
Eddie must shoot from the hip, too. If you don’t like his posts, feel free to skip ‘em. Oh, and take the plank out of your eye, too. Have you tried looking in the mirror lately? The plank is getting big enough that you might actually be able to see it yourself.
“…feel free to skip ‘em.”
Try as I might, there are just too many off-topic posts and ad hominem attacks to ignore them all. Some times one must fight fire with fire.
Didn’t Billy Joel start the FIRE rather than Hank Paulson ,or wasn’t it ‘We didn’t start the fire ?” Who really started the fire ?
This is a example of a post that is useless ,designed to entertain . Troll posts are something totally different in that they are designed to attack the truth or facts or take things out of context to maintain
the status quo or prevent discovery of the facts or maintain
a PR campaign for a hidden agenda purpose .
Thanks, Michael, for calling out the blatant hypocrisy here. Seriously, folks. Just drop the damn personal attacks. If you don’t like someone, just f’n ignore them.
Just in case you mistakenly posted on the wrong blog:
The Housing Bubble
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
That’s a laugher. If I had lots of time, I’d go digging through old posts and find where Ben himself talked about the Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. and what it’s for. And I have a dollar that I can find you defending the “anything goes” nature of the bits bucket. I have 5 to 1 that I can find many and twenty of your posts that have nothing to do with Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
Your plank seems to be growing just like Pinocchio’s nose.
Glad to bring some cheer to your life today, Michael
P.S. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. Such as your’s and Eddie’s, for example.
Foolish consistency? Look in the mirror PB.
Well, good sir, please do me a favor and point out where I’ve been foolishly consistent.
Sorry to offend, Bill — I will try to inject a little more racist undertones in my posts to appease the likes of you and Eddie.
Apoligies, Michael, I was just razzing you. But here is a serious example of what I mean by ‘foolishly consistent.’ Count how many times a single poster said something similar to the following just today:
“BTW, when did you stop hitting your wife?”
Count how many times a single poster said something similar to the following just today:
If you count this it will make two
I would like to bitch slap Edie while his wife cheers on.
O didn’t promise to bring the troops home from afghanny…pretty selective memory there.
Eddie,
Obama did not promise to bring home the troops from Afghanistan. Go and do some research.
SFBAG, you’re right .. one of the O-man’s campaign promises was to increase troop levels in Afghanistan:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/134/send-two-additional-brigades-to-afghanistan/
Somehow Eddie misinterpreted this. Gosh .. who could have seen that coming? :p
But I wish he had.
So do I REhobbyist.
I would rather have our girls and boys home. We are not the world’s police.
So one Senator comes out and says something about a tax for Afghanistan on a Sunday morning talk show and it immediately became law? Government has never worked so fast.
That’s why we call him ’straw-man eddie’.
Another in a very long list of developers ‘hoping’ for change next year…
Atlanta developers sued by SC bank over project.
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
ATLANTA — Some of Atlanta’s biggest developers, including Wayne Mason and John Williams, are being sued by a South Carolina bank that claims they have failed to repay more than $12 million in loans for the Hampton Island Preserve, an exclusive residential community along Georgia’s coast.
The lawsuit, which also targets Ronald Leventhal, another big-time Atlanta builder, underscores the recessionary scourge that has decimated real estate in Georgia. The suit, obtained by The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, also shows the precariousness of the state’s pricey, second-home market, particularly along the hard-hit coast.
Leventhal, the managing partner of Hampton Island LLC, hadn’t seen the lawsuit Friday and reserved most comment until next week.
“All I can say, generally, is you shouldn’t believe lawsuits sometimes,” he said. The recession “has slowed us down like it would anybody in the luxury or up-end market. But we’re hopeful that will change sometime next year.”
A spokeswoman for Mason, one of suburban Atlanta’s most prolific real estate deal makers, also said he hadn’t seen the lawsuit and wouldn’t comment. Williams, a major Cobb County developer who founded Post Properties, an upscale apartment development firm, couldn’t be reached Friday.
First Citizens Bank and Trust Co. of Columbia claims the developers are in default, saying they have not made interest payments since May. Neither First Citizens nor its Atlanta attorneys could be reached Friday.
Hampton Island, like Sea Island and other high-dollar exclusive coastal communities, offers top-shelf amenities. The 4,000-acre gated community near Riceboro, about 40 minutes south of Savannah, boasts a soon-to-be-completed Davis Love III-designed golf course, a $9 million horse stable, a “treehouse spa” and a private seaplane.
Roughly 370 house lots, priced between $400,000 and $4 million, afford marsh, river and lake views. Annual dues run $15,000. Actor Ben Affleck bought two houses and 83 acres for $7.1 million earlier this decade.
“Hampton Island Preserve is a place to luxuriate in quality of life that has simply disappeared for most,” its Web site reads.
Poof, poof, poof, poof, po………
Posted the following comment yesterday.
“There’s a lot of talk of deflation while the banks are accumulating reserves. Sooner or later they’ll open the spickets and start loaning out the accumulated money. Then we’ll see the inflation.”
For the naysayer, take a look at this chart.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/EXCRESNS
Keep in mind the Fed is also paying interest which also contributes to an increase in reserves. The offset is supposed to be the assets on the Feds balance sheet, however, those are decreasing in value.
Also, to get a more complete view of things, study this chart that tracks changes in M1 and velocity.
http://www.icmarc.org/xp/rc/marketview/chart/2009/20090529ChangesM1Supply.html
Ah, a graphic representation of “pushing on a string”.
Very cool!
BREACH!!!!
Last aircraft leave closing Maine Navy base.
BRUNSWICK, Maine (AP) - The two last planes at Maine’s Brunswick Naval Air Station lifted off Saturday in blustery winds, ending nearly 60 years of maritime patrol operations at New England’s last active-duty military air base.
The P-3 Orions of the VP-26 squadron lumbered down an 8,000-foot runway before heading off to a six-month deployment in Central America. After that, they fly to their new home at Florida’s Jacksonville Naval Air Station.
The planes took off without any speeches or fanfare about 50 minutes apart Saturday afternoon. A small group of visitors gathered at the base operations building to watch, including Albert Stehle of Bowdoinham, whose father, Leroy Stehle, commanded the VP-26 during the early 1970s.
“I just came to see the last plane take off,” said Stehle, a building contractor who lives in the flight path of the base and will no longer be able to look up and see the planes bearing the squadron’s trident insignia. “After being a Navy brat for all these years and having to miss your dad because he was off on deployment, you finally realize it was all for a great cause.”
Brunswick, once home to 4,000 sailors and six patrol squadrons, now has a skeleton crew. Its two runways are scheduled to close in January and personnel will continue to leave the base until it closes for good in May 2011.
The decision to shutter the base was made in the final round of closings by the Base Closure and Realignment Commission in 2005. The 3,200-acre base will be turned over to a redevelopment group.
The Brunswick Naval Air Station opened during World War II to train British and Canadian pilots. After the war, the base was deactivated for a time before the U.S. Navy moved in.
The P-3 Orions, which went into operation in the 1960s, tracked Soviet submarines in the Atlantic Ocean during the Cold War. More recently, the planes have been used on drug interdiction missions and in support of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Great, just when the lil’ commie Chinese Gov’t is building it’s first aircraft carrier…one if by land , two if by sea…or is it the other way around…its been awhile.
Not sure I see your point. Chicom subs STILL suck, and I’m not sure we’d EVER see them in the North Atlantic. I do wonder where we’re going to fly antisub marine patrols over the North Atlantic from. But that has little to do with the Chineses and their “not ready for the open ocean” PLAN.
Seems like having x2 major oceans on both your flanks is some kind of benevolent “resource”…even if all the rest of the world thinks your US Dollar $$$$ is quite “worthless”.
Why do you think the Chinese will attack the US? They already own a lot of it!
In the 90s, Americans got into an uproar when the Japanese bought Pebble Beach and the Seattle Mariners Baseball team.
Now, towns / cities beg for Asian car manufacturers to employ their citizens even in areas not usually considered multicultural.
All of our debts will either be paid back with our productive assets or by destroying the value of the dollar.
All of our debts will either be paid back with our productive assets or by destroying the value of the dollar.
Good point. Which is preferable? Or more likely?
Sadly for many communities, a huge number of these bases need to be closed. Many are long over-due holdovers from WWII!
I’m not anti-military spending, but the efficiency must be improved. #1 by closing surplus bases.
Like Miramar, make it San Diego’s new airport.
Sits back and waits to see what he stirred up.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
They really should have made Moffett Field the new airport in San Jose. The existing SJC lies diagonally between two freeways and the runways can’t be extended to accomodate many jumbo jets. But SJC lies in the taxing area for San Jose city, and thus Moffett Field just couldn’t be considered.
Worked well for El Toro Marine base…laughing.
I wonder if they are really saving money by closing the operations. The planes will be flying out of a different place, Florida.
Maybe they do save a lot of money in BRAC. In the late 1990s driving on Kolb Road to/from work, I’d pass Davis - Monthan AFB and they have a big boneyard.
NWC at China Lake in California is adding lots of employees. Aberdeen Proving Grounds, near where I worked in Maryland, is also adding lots of employees. Net gainers in BRAC.
Home prices in Ridgecrest, Ca. are still over double what they were in the late 1990s.
I know that near the end of the cold war, they were talking about basing all the P3s far inland, not as a cost saving measure, but to give them a chance to take off before the missiles hit.
Old trucks working LA’s port face day of reckoning.
Los Angeles Times ~ November 29, 2009
LOS ANGELES — Filiberto Cervantes has separated from his wife and kids, lost his car, moved into his truck and says he subsists largely on a diet of $1 cheese burritos. But Jan. 1 looms like a date with the grim reaper himself.
“The first of the year will probably be the end of my family,” says Cervantes, showing a visitor his big-rig cab turned dwelling, now parked in a fast-food lot in Long Beach. “I don’t know what’s next.”
Cervantes is among thousands of truckers servicing the Los Angeles-Long Beach port complex who are facing a day of reckoning this New Year’s. That’s because Jan. 1, 2010 is the day new clean-air guidelines go into effect at the ports banning all pre-1994 trucks — as well as 1994-2003 rigs that have not been retro-fitted with costly diesel particulate filters.
The bans are part of the much-acclaimed “clean trucks” initiative that authorities say has cut toxic emissions approximately 70 percent since its introduction in October 2008 at the nation’s busiest harbor complex. Parallel state clean-air regulations also go into effect on Jan. 1.
Many people laud the move toward greener technology in the so-called “diesel alley” corridor of south L.A. County, where port pollution has been blamed for elevated cancer rates, widespread asthma and other health ailments. Ports nationwide are considering similar bans.
While no one knows for sure, some people estimate that the ban will deny more than 5,000 or more truckers access to their principal source of employment. Many, like Cervantes, already were reeling from the effects of the recession, living paycheck to paycheck.
About 20,000 truckers are registered to work the port complex, officials say, but regular users are closer to half that number.
The affected are mostly working-class immigrants from Mexico and Central America who were able to make a living in what was long a largely unregulated, and freely polluting, industry. But clean-air concerns have changed all that.
“he subsists largely on a diet of $1 cheese burritos.”
They should tax his emissions.
lol …no sh!t
rotfl
On that diet, it might be all gas.
Seriously, there is a huge anti-truck fever in LA. Fine… build more rail if you want less pollution. But this is mostly window dressing.
Note: I’m a combustion engineer who did years of research in pollution reduction. I know diesel pollution can be horrid.
But most of the fight is to force these truckers to join corporations to allow union dues to be collected. I’m ok for regulating transit. But this is a power play that has been put in pretty language.
Got Popcorn?
Neil
Palmy…
Always The Master.
a nice preview of what Cap N Tax will do to us all once implemented. But as long as we stop the non-existent global warming from taking place, I’m all for it. What’s a little poverty between friends when the alternative is the earth warms up by 0.02 degrees over the next 50 years?
With more regulations to clean the environment, there will be more job cuts. Over the long term, like in Europe, there will be smaller families in the U.S. People without jobs do not reproduce.
The population of the U.S. will decline at some point because there are not enough wealthy people to tax to pay for poor people. So welfare will have to be cut.
There will be a further job drain to other countries. Countries that do not have the tougher and tougher regulations that the USA has.
If you did not build up your nest egg before now, sorry. On the good side, we should see cleaner skies, less cancer, and less asthma.
“…People without jobs do not reproduce.”
Proof Bill that you think that every behaves like you.
Score:
Reproduction “urge to merge” = 1
Bill = 0
People without jobs do not reproduce?!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHH!
People without jobs do not reproduce.
There lies the fundamental flaw in your assessment.
In NYS uneducated, lazy, attitude driven, hand me more money, people who will never work and refuse to work are reproducing like rabbits. Generational welfare has been well entrenched in this state.
Well I was referring to recessions as traditionally when birth rates go down. College educated people are worried about affording families. First things to go are debt. And any future luxury includes children. People know recessions typically last two years. This one will probably last five years (more if a depression). Starting a family is not a need. It’s a want. Just like that Lexus LFA I want!
No worries, GoldenmanSachs will provide sub 500 point FICO loans to Filiberto & his compadres so that they can purchase their shiny new semi’s for $225,000 and then they can commence to get back to earning their $28,000 per year jobs and feel good about not adding pollution to the surrounding minority school grounds where their children play and take in deep and voluminous quantities of fresh Long Beach, CA air.
Well ………..are they Illegals too?
The affected are mostly working-class immigrants from Mexico and Central America
Maybe we will regulate ourselves to such an extent that the unemployment rate in Mexico and Central America will be lower than the U.S. and keep a lot of people from coming here!
I’ve driven in that area. Half of those truck shouldn’t have passed their safety inspections, let alone emission standards.
Yeah, nothing like driving behind a semi-truck with faulty brakes. Due to heavy lobbying, they keep allowing more axels without accounting for the time it takes these supercargos to slow down.
Good Morning fellow blogers. I want to share a link with you that I have been using since 1999. I hope all readers of this blog could benefit from visiting a web site called:
“Money What it is, How it works” - http://wfhummel.cnchost.com/
I have never found a web site that does a better job of detailed explanations about the US money system. The “cash is king” crowd should bookmark this site. The Gold bugs will benefit from understanding “Monetizing the Gold Stock” essay linked on the main page. The owner of the web site has been doing this since the mid-nineties - a real old timer in the internet age.
Thanks BlueStar…I’ve forwarded this to Sir Greenisspent, I mention that if he misses more than x2 answers he should voluntarily give his Knighthood back to England & The Queen
Quiz for Executive Ability:
The following quiz of four questions indicates whether you are qualified to be an executive.
1. How do you put a giraffe into a refrigerator? Answer
2. How do you put an elephant into a refrigerator?
Answer
3. The Lion King is hosting an animal conference. All the animals attend except one. Which animal does not attend? Answer
4. There is a river you must cross, but crocodiles inhabit it. How do you manage it? Answer
http://wfhummel.cnchost.com/executive.html#4
“Go ahead. Break the chains. Stop paying on your mortgage if you owe more than the house is worth. And most important: Don’t feel guilty about it. Don’t think you’re doing something morally wrong.”
The above is the lead paragraph of a syndicated Ken Harney column that appears in today’s Sarasota newspaper. I’m sure it was published elsewhere as well. It’s an excellent start to the day!
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20091129/COLUMNIST/911291001/2416/NEWS?Title=Walking-away-from-a-mortgage
I also found a link to the complete paper. It’s a pdf.
At 40 pages it might seem long but the author must have gotten paid by the page. The text occupies only half of the page width, and most pages have footnotes that occupy as much as half the page vertically. So it’s a fairly quick read.
The section on the “social control” forces is quite interesting.
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/WalkingAway1029.pdf
“Government is taking on stupendous debt to ‘cure’ a problem that was caused by taking on stupendous debt!” ~P. Gride
“How can you really get an economy out of a depression? Well, you have to get into a depression first. Then, you can get out”.
“The cure for a depression, in other words, is a depression. Nothing else will do. Mistakes need to be addressed and corrected. Losses need to be recognized and written off. Bad decisions need to be put right”.
“So, bring on the depression! Get it on. Get it over with”. ~ B.Bonner
~ Mortgage delinquencies at a record high, says The New York Times.
Real joblessness is at 17.5%, reports CNBC.
Insiders are selling 17 of their own shares for every one that they buy.
“Consumers lose appetite for dining out,” reports The Los Angeles Times.
…In other words, the economic caution flag is still fluttering and now is not the time to leap into debt on the pretense it will bring back the go-go economy that made us all “rich.”
“…In other words, the economic caution flag is still fluttering and now is not the time to leap into debt on the pretense it will bring back the go-go economy that made us all ‘rich’.”
But it is the time to convince others (especially those you don’t particulary like) to jump deep into debt and to keep up their spending as much as possible because money needs to somehow keep flowing or we are all hosed.
“The cure for a depression, in other words, is a depression.”
Is it accurate to think of the Dark Ages as just an extended depression?
Funny you should say that, because it was. The Roman Empire was THE economic and science/engineering engine of the European continent. When they contracted, so did everything else.
The Dark Ages is a very good and relatively recent example of what can happen if things reach critical mass. Don’t think it can’t happen.
But probably not any time soon. Empires tend to avg runs of at least 500 years. We currently have at least 3 viable super powers.
Nice post. To compare us to Ancient Rome, I think we’re more in the ’switchover’ phase from republic to empire. But maybe with our new information technologies we can get a grip on our criminal-minded overclass that they were *never* able to achieve. Or maybe they can get a grip on us?
I don’t really like to make comparisons to ancient Rome, but there really are many parallels and this country really is founded on many of its principles and philosophies.
Then there was Chinese Mandarins (scholar bureaucrats) and their suffocating effect on ancient China…
I think ancient Rome is probably the most analagous nation to the US that there is. Their history helps reveal what’s going on now, as our elite attempts to loot what it can from a fading, dysfunctional system, just as their’s did.
Will our elite find a church/bureaucratic system to insinuate themselves into like Rome and the ‘Mandarins’ did? Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that, ‘god’ only knows what they’d come up with.
anyone missing the ownership society
at least I was making a buck
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Administration-plans-new-apf-832071904.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode=
“We are taking additional steps to enhance servicer transparency and accountability,” Reilly said. She said the goal was to increase the rate that troubled home loans were converted into new loans with lower monthly payments”.
Hey Lady! There is already a plan in place that takes care of the problem. It’s called foreclosure, look it up and read all about it.
These people are bound and determined to royally screw up as much as possible. Good old big nanny gubmint at work.
Well foreclosures are fairly inefficient. It’s perfectly possible to imagine that there are many cases, perhaps even a majority of cases where the bank could offer a loan with reduced principal to the current homeower that would result in less immediate losses than a foreclosure auction. But it is also true that many of these people would redefault, and that some reasonable fraction can afford to make the agreed upon payments.
I just don’t think that the lenders have enough experienced personnel to make those determinations. When they got rid of meaningful underwriting, I’d bet they also lost the underwriters. And those order-taking form-fillers that they call loan officers these days just don’t know how to figure out what the FBs can afford. An “arms length” transaction at the end of the REO slowwagon process establishes a price and limits future losses in a way that workouts can’t.
Besides wishful thinking, is there ANY reason to believe that a majority of the significantly underwater will be able to get mods that will keep them out of foreclosure?
“Besides wishful thinking, is there ANY reason to believe that a majority of the significantly underwater will be able to get mods that will keep them out of foreclosure?”
Logical answer = No.
Wishful thinking answer = Of course.
Real estate is the best investment one can ever make. The trick is to ride out the temporary downs that go along with the long-term trend which, history has shown, is always up. It would be foolish for one to throw in the financial towel now, when RE is at the bottom of it’s cycle. If anything one should be looking to acquire more property, not walk away from what he already has.
But - AT ALL COSTS - the homebuyer should keep up with his house payments. The house payment should be the FIRST payment to come out of his paycheck each month.
Also, he should pass this message along to all his friends.
Hmm…Am I understanding you to be saying that it’s time to be buying real estate?
No, I am saying it is time for OTHERS to be buying real estate. The more money others put into the system the better off we taxpayers will be.
Oh, ok. I was worried there for a moment. Thought I’d missed something.
I guess I missed the sarcasm. But now I see it. (I wasn’t sure where the ‘wishful thinking’ ended.)
The more money others put into the system the better off we taxpayers will be.
That’s not very productive when it’s the taxpayer’s money going into the system. ie FHA loans with the 3.5% down coming from a tax rebate.
So far, few elected officials have objected to the program’s growth. Almost 90 percent of beneficiaries nationwide live below the poverty line (about $22,000 a year for a family of four). But a minor tempest hit Ohio’s Warren County after a woman drove to the food stamp office in a Mercedes-Benz and word spread that she owned a $300,000 home loan-free. Since Ohio ignores the value of houses and cars, she qualified.
“I’m a hard-core conservative Republican guy — I found that appalling,” said Dave Young, a member of the county board of commissioners, which briefly threatened to withdraw from the federal program.
Hike that cheese on the rear bumpa, baba…
Income is taxed one way, wealth is taxed another.
Warren Buffett knows this and hence pays himself (and is only taxed on) $100,000 a year. He says his employees pay more in taxes than he does.
If Buffett stopped paying himself the $100,000 then he too could stand in line for food stamps.
Yup! Chattering socialist parrots can squawk all they want about taxing wealthy people. But the wealthy people have enough financial freedom to simply lower their incomes without changing their lifestyles. Houses are paid off, income from municipal bonds is not taxed.
Most wealthy Democrats who donate to Democrat socialists are like Buffet. They draw tiny incomes to duck under their Messiah’s radar of taxes.
The old-fashioned, naive social conservatives (averse to change) who have high incomes (above $250,000), but are too uneducated in tax-saving tips are the ones who will suffer from Obama’s taxes. They think they are being patriotic law-abiding citizens if they do not avoid taxes. Key words “averse to change.” These people go by tradition and are very slow to react to new laws. The Democrat wealthy people are very adaptable and quick to protect their wealth and liberty.
Please
All wealthy avoid taxes
All people who work for a living and get a pay check particularly those who make high incomes pay through the nose. My taxes are higher than the top 1% in this country. Everything going on right now targets the middle and upper middle class. AMT, tax on insurance benefits, taxes on income above 250k.
I wish I was a CEO and could get paid in stock,options, and dividends and insurance benefits and discount loans and travel money etc.
I really believe that CEO’s Hedge Fund managers should have all of their pay,stock,options,etc taxed as if it were income, because that’s what it is.
State’s Unemployment Fund Goes Broke.
Connecticut may need to borrow nearly $1 billion to pay out jobless claims. ~ 11/30/09
Connecticut’s unemployment insurance fund has become insolvent, which will force the state to borrow nearly $1 billion over the next two years so jobless residents can continue to collect unemployment checks.
The state’s unemployment insurance fund ran out of money Oct. 13, and the state has already borrowed $80 million to make up for the shortfall. By the end of 2009, those loan amounts are expected to increase to $260 million. Through 2012, state officials predict the state may need to borrow up to $900 million.
Connecticut officials expect the state’s unemployment insurance fund to continue to fall short during the next few years. State unemployment insurance premiums — paid for by Connecticut businesses — are not expected to generate enough money to cover jobless claims.
The premiums are projected to generate about $650 million this year, about half of the $1.3 billion needed to cover expected jobless claims, said Carl Guzzardi, tax director for the state Department of Labor.
“It’s the cyclical nature of the business we are in,” Guzzardi said. “This is not something that is unexpected in a recession of this nature.”
Connecticut will keep paying unemployment benefits even though the insurance fund has run out, but will now have to borrow money from the U.S. Department of Labor to make up for the shortfall.
“The lack of money is the root of all evil.” - Reverend Ike
COMBO my Man I love Rev Ike……
also check this guy out..Gene Scott….wild crazy man preacher of late night TV:
http://www.drgenescott.org/
Is Reverend Ike still alive? We used to get his literature in the mail when I was a kid in Detroit. Hilarious!
He died this year in july
http://www.revike.org/
That happened to “foward looking” New York, where the future is when those who matter plan to have moved away, after the third person was laid off in the first month of the recession.
This morning my buddy informed me that he is likely going to allow all his properties to go into foreclosure, he has 8 mostly multi unit properties in CA and TX. It is not an emergency situation with him, but he thinks it is a waste of money to continue to feed the alligators. My buddy makes somewhere in the neighborhood of 200k a year at his day job and figures he will also be able to collect rent on these properties somewhere in the neighborhood of 13K a month until the tenents figure out what is going on.
What exactly is the downside for him other than his credit score diving? I mean he doesn’t need credit anymore. Will the IRS 1099 him on all the money the banks lose? How does that work exactly?
Thanks,
Fecaltime!
Depends on if his loans are recourse or non-recourse loans . He better seek a attorney .
I can’t say that I love people who in addition to defaulting want to
make a extra buck on milking the renters while they default on the mortgage payment . Can’t say that I like the system that created this mess to begin with either . The bottom line is that the parties to the
real estate contracts are both sinking to new lows and human nature
and banker thug nature is to take advantage of the situation .
Why don’t we just line up the borrowers and the bankers and shoots them all at dawn .This could solve the population problem and the
over payment bonus payment rip off for the banker culprits problem.
Hey Wizard,
I’m aware it is a ‘non recourse vs recourse’ issue. Does that change state to state or contract to contract? That what has me a little confused.
He may feel the need to collect all those rents to pay the IRS bill. This brings up another question though, what rate is the 1099 going to be taxed at. My impression is that it is taxed at the capital gains rate.
I’m going to talk with him later today and see if he was seriously considering defaulting. It seems to me that with his day job income, he could find himself in line for default judgements.
Fecaltime!
He only has to pay taxes on it if they forgive the loan.
Sounds good to me, since Cal is nonrecourse. If he owns any in Sacramento, let me know, Fecal. I want to be first in line.
By the way, are you a colorectal surgeon?
Hello REhobbyist,
The CA property is in lovely Rialto, and somewhere else in Riverside county. Nothing in Sacramento.
Hehe! No I can’t say that I’m a surgeon of any kind!
Fecaltime!
RE,
Are you saying that in CA, these loans can be walked away from 100% without the danger of receiving a 1099?
Fecaltime!
Are you saying that in CA, these loans can be walked away from 100% without the danger of receiving a 1099?
From what I’ve read on this blog, I thought that primary mortgages were non-recourse, but re-fis would be recourse in CA?
(just going off memory here)
Thanks Drumminj,
I’ve been doing research today. It seems recourse depends on the state. A state like TX allows for recourse, but a state like CA does not. At least that is what I’m seeing so far.
Fecaltime!
I can’t quite understand it, but it seems like a bailout of some sort:
UAE to back banks amid Dubai meltdown
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091129/ap_on_bi_ge/ml_dubai_meltdown
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates – The United Arab Emirates’ central bank said Sunday it would offer additional liquidity to banks, signaling a push by the federal government to reassure investors worried about the country’s banking sector and its exposure to Dubai’s crushing debt.
Copycats!
See, if you followed gld in 2008, its price dropped immediately in September, along with stocks, following the big $787 porkbarrel bailout.
But spot gold bottomed in October.
Stocks kept dropping another four or five months through March.
Another big bailout somewhere else in the world should be good for gold to continue on the long term upward trend.
$787….$700-something billion bailout.
The analyst on the PBS Newshour brought up this exact possibility. Dubai’s future depends on the good will of the UAE. The rest of the UAE is flush with oil money and could easily bail them out.
Brad Pitt can sleep well tonight.
Does he intend to refund their deposits?
AZRENTER,
I’m pretty sure he will refund the deposits or allow them to stay rent free towards the end. He has always been very fair with the tenents.
Now that I think about it I know he has a couple of these properties in AZ as well.
Fecaltime!
The great American consumer will never turn down a sale! Got to get one of those Zhu Zhu pets, it’s a must have.
Black Friday Crowds Grab Discounted Flat-Panel TVs, Computers.
Nov. 29 (Bloomberg) — Retailers reported “strong” shopper traffic on Black Friday as discounts on televisions, toys and computers drew budget-conscious crowds across the U.S., the National Retail Federation said.
High-definition TVs, laptops, Zhu Zhu Pets robotic hamsters and winter coats were among the most popular items, according to the federation, a Washington-based trade group. Sales advanced 0.5 percent to $10.7 billion, ShopperTrak RCT Corp., a Chicago- based research firm, said yesterday in a statement.
Wal-Mart Stores Inc., the world’s largest retailer, drew crowds with $298 Hewlett-Packard laptop computers and other specials that went on sale at 5 a.m. Best Buy Inc., the biggest electronics chain, used $547.99 42-inch Samsung flat-panel TVs to lure shoppers grappling with the highest unemployment in 26 years. The retailer had bigger early-morning crowds than last year, Chief Executive Officer Brian Dunn said.
“The surprise news is that they are actually buying for themselves as well, due to pent-up demand and frugal fatigue,” Marshal Cohen, chief industry analyst with NPD Group Inc. said in a Bloomberg Television interview Nov. 27. “They are saying ‘Let’s loosen up the purse strings a little bit,’ but it is still cautious spending.” NPD, based in Port Washington, New York, is a market research firm.
Holiday Shopping Prediction
The day after U.S. Thanksgiving is known as Black Friday, the traditional beginning of holiday buying. Explanations of the phrase’s origins differ, one holding that it’s the weekend when retailers go to being in the black, profitable for the year. Stores open early on Black Friday and offer early-bird discounts to attract business.
A 4.9 percent sales decrease in the northeast countered gains in other regions, according to ShopperTrak. Consumer traffic was heavy throughout the country, the research firm, which plans to release store-visit figures in the next few days.
Winter coats and HDTVs? What an odd combination.
It was the best of times…it was the worst of times. A tale of two cities indeed.
Great book. One of the few by Charles Dickens that I enjoyed reading.
More people need to read Dickens. I always forget to refer to him when arguing against “free market” boneheads.
I guess I stopped because I was having the same problem when I would refer to Upton Sinclair. “Who?” was always the reply.
I loved reading Dickens. You just have to put the racist stuff in context.
One man’s incendiary suggestion is another man’s rational business decision.
Harney: Law professor urges struggling homeowners to walk away from mortgages
By Kenneth R. Harney
Posted: 11/28/2009 05:00:00 PM PST
Go ahead. Break the chains. Stop paying on your mortgage if you owe more than the house is worth. And most important: Don’t feel guilty about it. Don’t think you’re doing something morally wrong.
That’s the incendiary core message of a new academic paper by Brent T. White, a University of Arizona law school professor, titled “Underwater and Not Walking Away: Shame, Fear and the Social Management of the Housing Crisis.”
White argues that far more of the estimated 15 million American homeowners who are underwater on their mortgages should stiff their lenders and take a hike.
Doing so, he suggests, could save some of them hundreds of thousands of dollars that they “have no reasonable prospect of recouping” in the years ahead. Plus the penalties are nowhere near as painful or long-lasting as they might assume.
“Homeowners should be walking away in droves,” according to White.
“But they aren’t. And it’s not because the financial costs of foreclosure outweigh the benefits.” Sure, credit scores get whacked when you walk away, he acknowledges. But as long as you stay current with other creditors, “one can have a good credit rating again — meaning above 660 — within two years after a foreclosure.”
Better yet, you can default “strategically”: buy all the major items you’ll need for the next couple of years — a new car, even a new house — just before you pull the plug on your current mortgage lender.
…
I’m trying to figure out how the IRS form 1099 plays into these scenerios. If the banks lose 200k because somebody walks, isn’t the owner who walked away on the hook for some taxes on that money?
Fecaltime!
A contract used to be like a steel fortress in the good old days. I lost a lot of respect for my fellow countrymen in the last 30 years. Lots of cheaters, lots of people refusing to learn from their mistakes.
“I lost a lot of respect for my fellow countrymen in the last 30 years.’
How does this coincide with the most “Professional” “Bidness” degrees ever issued in American history?
Bill: In my humble opinion, that was both sad and profound.
You probably read my post yesterday about being the victim of embezzlement. Also my father was the victim. My father still trusted people more than I did. However, I can trust my relatives to not pay me back any loans.
No one in my family knows my gross income. I learned four years ago not to tell any relative/friend about my hourly rate any more. A sister told her boyfriend and he rudely told me point blank that I am overpaid. It was none of his business and he never worked where I worked so he does not know my level of productivity. He did not apologize and my sister was upset at both of us, not just him.
You can share your gross income with us Bill. We won’t tell anyone else. We promise
See, I’m pretty much private here.
Click here to see my social security number, address, credit card number, bank account numbers, investment fund access codes, and brokerage accounts.
Hey you forgot to provide the link
“Click here to see my social security number, address, credit card number, bank account numbers, investment fund access codes, and brokerage accounts.”
Oh Bill, we already have all that data. You don’t really think your Internet connection is that secure, do you?
Tee hee
It’s okay with me so long as interest rates reflect the true risk associated with this type of behavior.
CC rates ~30% are a step in the right direction. Now let’s get those mortgage rates up to 15% and we’ll be talking (leftover) turkey.
“…Now let’s get those mortgage rates up to 15% and we’ll be talking (leftover) turkey”
The 14+% line forms next to the 7%+ passbook savings line
Perhaps Sir Greenissspent will saunter by with a confused look on his mug…
When I had my first full-time job in 1984, mortgage interest rates (fixed-20 and 30 year) were 10% or higher. And you know what? People were able to buy houses! They earned 30-40K/year, and houses were 50K - 60K!
This artificially low interest rate culture we have is mindbogglingly foolish and unfair (it’s a tax on savers so Harry Howmuchamonth can be maxed out).
7% passbook accounts!?!?!? Good god man! Easy Al sez “no pain, no gain.” Easy Al is here (clap, clap) to “pump” you up. Easy Al says don’t be an investment girlieman!
Forrest Gump said something pertinent for people who hang on to unrepayable debt when it is against their rational self interest and long term household financial health to do so: “Stupid is as stupid does.” Let external moral judgments get in the way of personal financial rationality at your own risk.
‘The main point, he (White) says, is that too often people’s “emotions” get in the way of clear financial thinking about mortgages, turning them into what he calls “woodheads” — “individuals who choose not to act in their own self-interest.” Most owners are too worried about feelings of shame and embarrassment following a foreclosure, and ignore the powerful financial reasons for doing so.
Buttressing these emotions is a system that White labels “the social control of the housing crisis” — pressures and messages continually sent to consumers by the “social control agents,” namely banks, government and the media. The mantra these agents — all the way up to President Barack Obama — pound into owners’ heads, says White, is that “voluntarily defaulting on a mortgage is immoral.”‘
Apparently the moral theorist Ranieri missed the memo about the Fed’s various interest rate suppression programs, including MBS purchases. The real question is at what point the interest rate suppressor of last resort might hit a hard constraint on its ability to artificially suppress interest rates in order to prop up the housing market.
‘Lewis Ranieri, CEO of several major mortgage-related companies and one of the pioneers of the mortgage securities industry, called White’s entire argument “incredibly irresponsible and misinformed.” Not only is the professor urging consumers to break legally binding contracts, said Ranieri, but if large numbers of them did so it would send home mortgage rates soaring and “tear apart the very basis” upon which mortgage lending rests — the understanding that borrowers will honor their commitments and pay back the money they borrowed.’
Lewis Ranieri - wasn’t he the director of a bank that went bankrupt last year?
http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSTRE4AC4JI20081113
Sounds like they just ran out of money…
‘The company said it has less than $500,000 of assets, and between $100 million and $500 million of liabilities, including some convertible notes and preferred securities.
Ranieri, who had been Franklin’s chairman, and all other Franklin officers and directors apart from Chief Executive Alan Master have resigned their positions, the company said.
Formed by Ranieri in August 2001, Franklin is the third-largest U.S. lender to fail this year, after Washington Mutual Inc (WAMUQ.PK) and IndyMac Bancorp Inc (IDMCQ.PK), which both also filed for bankruptcy protection.’
The Tiger Woods story I am watching with both trepidation and fascination. What a F####g spoiled brat. Wah, Stevie said it best re his future: “
Tiger Woods is an addict w/o being one. Read “King Baby, … “Tiger” .
As someone who owns land in Tiger Wood’s zip code (34786), I wonder if having the violent Mrs. Tiger Woods in the area with further lower our already depressed property values!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tppllc/4143165952/ (My “Swampworth” vs. Tiger Wood’s “Isleworth”)
Sounds like the Tiger got clawed by one angry puddytat.
Well maybe OJ was attacked by Nicole on a meth fueled binge and she sliced her own throat…
I don’t put Tiger in OJ’s league…
Sage advice from George Bernard Shaw for anyone who feels the urge to tangle with Eddie:
“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
I suppose I should thank Eddie for bringing to mind some favorite quotes. Here is one from Southern playwrite Tennessee Williams:
Harvey ‘Big Daddy’ Pollitt: There ain’t nuthin’ more powerful than the smell of mendacity!
“I Love You Oly”, this is a song I made up, so Oly Gal will come back and feed Shorty…
Hmmmmmm:
Check?
“I Love You Oly, yes it’s true…
Yu make my heart, go, putty, poo poo,
If u don’t think what I said is true,
How do u spell, “I Love You?”.
She’s gone with the wind, bro. I miss her too. I heard she hooked up with some real estate developer and now she writes for his company website.
If you want to find OlyGirl, I’d start with a shovel in 8-Up’s backyard.
If you want to find OlyGirl, I’d start with a shovel in 8-Up’s backyard.
I LOL’ed.
It would be used to bury a time capsule of our life together. Near Shorty, so he could eat it.
Gubmint getting in the way of gubmint… Imagine that!
Economy, Middlesex County, Morris County, News, Somerset County, Transportation »
N.J. engineers say stimulus-funded projects stalled by bureaucracy
The Star-Ledger.
Millions of dollars in federal stimulus funds awarded to New Jersey months ago for “shovel-ready” county road projects won’t be used until next year because of the increased documentation and review the projects now face.
While county public works departments previously had to submit only brief summaries of their projects, they now must laboriously document each detail, from curb cuts and storm water catch basins to painted lines and guardrails, county engineers said.
“It’s slowed the process and caused delays,” said Somerset County Engineer Michael Amorosa.
County engineers complain that some of the new requirements they face seem excessive and have stalled road projects that could now be under way or completed.
“It was a long, arduous process for money that was supposed to be spent,” Amorosa said. “If they find an ‘i’ that wasn’t dotted, it came back with a comment.”
“I could have bid those jobs in the spring,” said Morris County Public Works Director Steve Hammond, whose department received more than $2 million for road work contracts.
County engineers say they have had to repeatedly revise plans to meet federal regulations for projects funded under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.
“I just got a stack of papers on my desk today to go through,” Hammond said. “We’ve had to redo plans.”
He said Morris County has moved ahead on a separate $5.6 million project to upgrade its freight railroad line.
John Reiser, Middlesex County’s engineer and director of public works, said one project required county workers to photograph sidewalks at 700 intersections to show construction would not adversely affect handicapped-accessible curb cuts.
Middlesex County received $6.7 million to install or replace guardrails, and another $7.5 million to repave 18 roads, but none of those projects will be started until next year, Reiser said.
“I’m hopeful. We’re on the verge of going for bids,” he said. “I think it will take most of next year to complete this.
Aww, what a shame. Guess the brother-in-law contracting company won’t be able to skim and cut corners with all that documentation, will he?
That’s just un-American!
Bullrings, Theme Park Can’t Stop 20% Spanish Jobless (Update1)
Nov. 27 (Bloomberg) — Bullrings and fake Eiffel Towers may not be enough to hold back the tide of surging unemployment in Spain, Europe’s one-time engine of job growth.
As an 8 billion-euro ($12 billion) stimulus program runs out, that will help destroy 250,000 jobs at the start of next year, according to the AGETT association of employment agencies, and push the jobless rate above 20 percent.
Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero’s package, designed to fight Spain’s worst recession in 60 years, has kept people in work by funding a wave of building projects from a theme park of European monuments to sports complexes and bullrings. The risk is that a further jump in joblessness will delay the return to growth, boosting the budget deficit and borrowing costs.
“What they’ve done is just put the unemployed on ice,” said Fernando Fernandez, a professor at IE business school in Madrid and former International Monetary Fund economist. “There’s been a series of transitory measures based on the idea the crisis would be short, and now we have to deal with the consequences.”
Under the Plan E program, which created 422,298 jobs, builders in Torrejon de Ardoz, near Madrid, are erecting the collection of monuments among 5,000 trees. On the Mediterranean island of Ibiza, 3 million euros is being spent to build a swimming pool, while a bullring near the capital has a new roof.
On the Mediterranean island of Ibiza, 3 million euros is being spent to build a swimming pool
Any money spent on a pool that will no doubt attract a crowd of topless beauties is money well spent, IMHO.
“After the last Great Depression, Keynesian economists emerged victorious in proposing that a nation must spend its way out of crisis. This time around, they will be proven wrong. The world is a very different place now. Loose credit, easy spending and massive debt is what has led the world to the current economic crisis, spending is not the way out. The world has been functioning on a debt based global economy. This debt based monetary system, controlled and operated by the global central banking system, of which the apex is the Bank for International Settlements, is unsustainable. This is the real bubble, the debt bubble. When it bursts, and it will burst, the world will enter into the Greatest Depression in world history”.
Andrew Gavin Marshall is a Research Associate with the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG). He is currently studying Political Economy and History at Simon Fraser University.
BINGO
I think that if all the bailout money, unemployment money, and war money was used to create jobs that actually produced something the Keynesians might be right. Instead it has been handed to banks and ceo’s. Creating inflation by printing money only works if it gets into the hands of people who will spend it and pay off debt. Handing them money in a stimulus check won’t take away the fear of unemployment and many will sit on it or use it to buy only the basics.
They should have offerred 50-75% tax credits for people to buy double pain windows and to install insullation and better doors. Immediately you are employing all the people who lost their jobs in housing. 50-75% tax break for solar heat and power and geo thermal installations. 50-75% tax break for distributive generation. IN addition to employing a lot of people quickly you would decreas costs for those who used the credits and they would be more likely to spend as they saw their monthly bills fall.
Creating inflation will just shift spending, this trick has been played 1 to many times and it will not work now. People spend more on gas and food spend less on manufactured goods leading to more unemployment and the cycle continues.
How to Get “HAMPED” Whether You Like It or Not:
See, HAMP Really Was A Scam
You have give these banksters credit - they’ll lie and lie and lie some more….
More than 650,994 loan revisions had been started through the Obama administration’s Home Affordable Modification Program as of last month, from about 487,081 as of September, according to the Treasury. NONE of the trial modifications through October had been converted to permanent repayment plans, the Treasury data showed. That failure is getting the administration’s attention.
NONE? Out of 651,000 “trial” modifications NONE have turned into a permanent repayment plan?
That’s all the borrower’s fault, right? There’s no collusion here, yes? No intent to screw the taxpayer, having taken their money? Nothing wrong here at all… it just calls for the administration’s “attention.”
Yeah, right.
“We are taking additional steps to enhance servicer transparency and accountability as part of a broader focus on maximizing conversion rates to permanent modifications,” Treasury spokeswoman Meg Reilly said in an e-mail yesterday. The Obama administration plans to announce additional steps tomorrow, including new private-public partnerships and resources for borrowers.
Bull.
What’s worse, Bank of America has only 14% of their “eligible” loans in a trial modification. Citibank has 40% under trial, and JP Morgan/Chase 32%.
All in all, only 20% of those “eligible” have been offered, accepted, and are in a trial but zero percent - zero - have actually turned into a permanent loan modification that the homeowner can count on.
The administration program requires banks that received federal aid from the Treasury’s Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP, as well as mortgage-finance companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to lower monthly payments for borrowers at “imminent risk” of default.
That’s some “requirement” eh? Zero percent completion from June to October? That’s five months, and the “trial” period is supposedly 90 days, so this means that either (1) nobody did anything for the first two months, or (2) not one borrower successfully completed a trial between June and now.
If the Obama Administration and Treasury was serious about this “help” they would be seeking indictments.
Oh wait - they can’t - there was no “or else” put into the law enabling HAMP, was there? Just looked again - nope - no criminal or civil sanction in there for banks who are allegedly “required” to do these things.
A law without a punishment for failure to comply is no law at all - it is nothing other than a scam and a fraud perpetrated by the government to make you “feel good” while in fact doing exactly NOTHING.
(From K. Denninger 11/29)
“If the Obama Administration and Treasury was serious about this “help” they would be seeking indictments.”
Does this guy live under a rock? They are. Former execs from Countrywide for example. But there was so much crime of all types connected with this disaster that they are literally buried.
Mr. “journalist” should really read the news more often.
How do interest rates on savings near zero square with this sage advice?
* The Wall Street Journal
* NOVEMBER 29, 2009
Saving Is Something You Should Do Every Day
By JASON ZWEIG
Americans have forgotten how to save in recent years.
First, we came to regard the stock market as our piggy bank; if we needed a little spending money, surely we could always sell a few shares of stock or a bit of a mutual fund at a profit. Then, we viewed our houses as money machines that would always provide a surplus of cash on a moment’s notice, since real estate “never goes down in value.”
All that has changed, at least for now. People finally have again realized how important it is to save. After all, thrift was once one of the quintessential American virtues: Just think of Benjamin Franklin intoning, “A penny saved is a penny earned.”
Our ancestors knew what we had forgotten until recently: Unless you save, you cannot make your wealth grow. It’s much easier to tell ourselves that our horse will come in at the racetrack, or that we will win the lottery if we just keep playing 4-7-10-14-36-51, or that some stock we heard about online is the next Google, or that we can simply use our credit cards to buy whatever we feel like today and pay it all back tomorrow…after our horse comes in at the racetrack.
But Benjamin Franklin was right when he wrote: “Human felicity is produc’d not so much by great pieces of good fortune that seldom happen, as by little advantages that occur every day.”
And the biggest of all “little advantages that occur every day” is the simple act of saving money. That, in turn, requires you to become more mindful of where your money goes and why, and whether you are spending it wisely and saving enough.
…
“How do interest rates near zero square with this sage advice?”
In a deflationary environment a NOMINAL zero interest rate translates into a positive tax-free REAL interest rate.
Saving is a great concept until the Market Makers decide to penalize you for it by inflation in combination with low interest rates .In a way the game is to force you to spend the way they want you to spend .
They don’t mind using your money and paying you dirt cheap for it ,
but right now its almost the same as keeping it under your mattress
while you watch it lose value .
The Power Brokers are market controller and only care about a self-serving objective in spite of how many people it might hurt .
When the Powers were allowing the great middle class to prosper ,
by being willing to take a smaller cut of the pie (actually laws limited them ),it was more well balanced . All hell broke loose with de-regulation and Global wage competition that the welfare of the
middle and upper middle class became secondary ,in fact stealing from the middle class became the game . It isn’t capitalism when you give the power groups unfair advantage by giving them favorable laws and monopolies and allow absurd leveraged Casino games in which they abused their duty to protect the deposits of the nation for a quick buck .
Updated November 29, 2009
Sanders Says No to a Second Term for Federal Reserve Chief
FOXNews dot com
Sen. Bernie Sanders sounded a resounding “no” to a second term for Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, saying Sunday he will vote against Ben Bernanke’s reappointment.
Bernanke is expected to go before the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee on Thursday for what is likely to be tough questioning on his monetary policy during the bank collapse of 2008-2009.
Bernanke, who was first nominated President George W. Bush, is “part of the problem” facing the U.S. economy, the independent Vermont senator said. Sanders is not a member of the banking panel
“No, I absolutely will not vote for Mr. Bernanke. He is part of the problem. He’s the smartest guy in the world, why didn’t he do anything to prevent us from sinking into this disaster that Wall Street caused and which he was a part of?” Sanders asked on ABC’s “This Week.”
Over the weekend, Bernanke penned an editorial in The Washington Post offering a full-throated defense of the Fed, which is facing House legislation for an audit, the first of its kind, as well as other legislation aimed to limit the central bank’s influence.
“The Fed played a major part in arresting the crisis, and we should be seeking to preserve, not degrade, the institution’s ability to foster financial stability and to promote economic recovery without inflation,” Bernanke wrote.
…
* The Wall Street Journal
* HEARD ON THE STREET
* NOVEMBER 29, 2009, 3:04 P.M. ET
Unease Over Banks’ Reserves
By PETER EAVIS
There is a $1 trillion stash of cash idling in the banking system. It’s too big to ignore, and it’s a cause for concern.
In normal times, banks hold a bare minimum of funds in reserve to support their liabilities. But these bank reserves now exceed the U.S. Federal Reserve’s regulatory floor by $1 trillion. Before the credit crisis intensified in September last year, excess reserves — effectively cash banks hold above their regulatory requirements and usually hate holding — totaled just $2 billion.
The Fed’s extraordinary policies aimed at shoring up the economy and banking system are the reason excess reserves have ballooned. As the central bank prints money to buy, say, mortgage-backed securities, much of that extra cash ends up in the banking system, potentially as excess reserves.
So why do excess reserves create disquiet?
…
Bernanke Forgot About His Role In Causing the Great Recession
By Dean Baker - November 29, 2009, 8:39AM
Ben Bernanke’s column in the Washington Post has to be absolutely infuriating to anyone old enough to remember the events of 2008. In this column, Bernanke lectures the public about the need for the Federal Reserve Board to preserve its independence from Congress, explaining that:
“The government’s actions to avoid financial collapse last fall — as distasteful and unfair as some undoubtedly were — were unfortunately necessary to prevent a global economic catastrophe that could have rivaled the Great Depression in length and severity, with profound consequences for our economy and society. (I know something about this, having spent my career prior to public service studying these issues.) My colleagues at the Federal Reserve and I were determined not to allow that to happen.”
It’s nice to talk about the Fed’s response to this crisis, but Mr. Bernanke’s studies apparently did not tell him the obvious, that allowing an $8 trillion housing bubble to grow unchecked would lead to an economic disaster like what we are now experiencing. He and his colleagues at the Federal Reserve Board either could not see, or did not care about, this huge bubble. As a result, Ben Bernanke has been running around for much of the last year and a half telling us about his knowledge of the Great Depression.
…
Here is a great read on duBYE:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html
Wow …This is something else ,for a variety of reasons . It’s shocking really . Thanks for posting .
Now, her outlay is around $2,750 a month. Despite the discovery of a few flaws, including heat she cannot control and the tiny bathroom’s shallow step that makes it easy to trip upon exiting, she is glad to be an owner.
“Owning feels completely different” from renting, Ms. Leach said.
Ordinarily, she would decorate her new home immediately and throw a housewarming party. Instead, she is putting it together slowly, “because it means so much more,” she said. “I want to be sure about everything. I am taking my time.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/realestate/29hunt.html?hpw
So, instead of negotiating a much lower rent in a better apt, she is
“taking my time” and will find out her 5th fl walk up is going to be much less than $360,000 this time next yr.
Whew.
Well, she will have firm legs and a tight but t.