Bits Bucket For December 6, 2009
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The Housing Bubble
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
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Looks like our diplomatic best buddy is planning for a fall in world social standing. In the long term, I’d imagine the US should be fearful of these same travails.
The Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR) says Britain, which was the world’s fourth largest economy as recently as 2005, has slipped to seventh this year behind America, China, Japan, Germany, France and Italy.
By 2015, it predicts, Britain will be outside the world’s top 10, behind Russia, Brazil, India and Canada. Slow growth and a weak pound will be responsible for the slide.
“Public opinion in the UK has not yet caught up with the potential impact of this change,” said Doug McWilliams, chief executive of the CEBR.
“It means that, whether we like it or not, we are going to have to be prepared to put up with economic, political and social decisions made in other countries.” Britain would find it hard to maintain a seat at top diplomatic tables.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article6945979.ece
England: Last outpost of the Roman Empire.
I’ve always felt the US was the last outpost of the Roman Empire, so to speak.
We’re following in their footsteps toward decline and fall, anyway. Bread and circuses, anyone?
The Roman Empire was overrun by the Huns. We will be overrun by the BRICs. Just like the Romans we are trying to reach an accomodation with the BRICs to allow us to live in civility.
Failed empires are the most pathetic political entity on the planet.
The biggest reason being they still keep their arrogance without the might to back it up as well and being incredibly blind to the reasons and solutions to their failure.
Last night my wife’s family got together to decorate great-grandma’s house. My wife always tells me not to bring up New York or leaving Florida, but I did anyway (again). I was surprised to learn my wife’s entire family is discussing moving en masse to Georgia. It appears that once you’re underwater on your house (all of my wife’s relatives own) you’re willing to “try something new.”
What HBB has helped train me to do, is dig on every situation for a better explanation. All of my wife’s family is behaving like many Floridians — now that the house isn’t appreciating, people are coming up with some interesting other reasons as to why they want to leave — but really, it’s because their house isn’t paying them to stay. People should just say, “it’s too hot here, and I’m broke… I’m out”
Similarly, there was a neighbor of ours that was always chatting us up when we walked the babies — she was always talking about how she missed her friends in Indiana, and she was thinking about moving. Well, she’s gone and I was surprised to see “third party approval required” on her house listing, because she had mentioned several times she’d moved into the neighborhood over twenty years ago — so I looked her up: she bought the house for $48k and HELOC’d it for $158k two years ago.
I bet she misses Indiana.
I bet she misses Indiana.
I bet she does. One thing I have been seeing is these signs about the federal recovery act sites where the jobs are. We might pass by new highways and see a reinvestment sign about how this is the money saving jobs from the govt. Funny though no one was ever out there….
Time for me to get back to work, next time I blog, it will be back in the middle east!
Take care of yourself.
Be safe Step.
Florida was supposed to be cheap compared with the alternatives.
There are always people moving from Florida back to New York. The cycle works like this.
You retire from your state or local government job with an inflation-indexed, (state and local income) tax free-pension, and decide that New York (sales and property) taxes are too high. So you move to Florida, which is happy to have you as part of the tax base as long as you don’t need anything.
One reason NY taxes are high here is because this is a state where EVERYTHING is for senior citizens and the retired, starting with the massive Medicaid program filled by formerly middle-class seniors who have transferred or hidden their assets. So when people have lost their money, and their health, and find Florida won’t do much for them, they come back to live off NY workers.
Meanwhile, the only place in NY State working young people want to move is NYC. And that’s just because of the image of the place, and the fact that they haven’t wised up yet and other states haven’t created a (safe and still economically active yet urban and walkable) place like it.
Yes and NO WT:
Yes the govmint allows transfers of property 5 years before you can apply for medicaid. But they DO check your assets, its a job called “Asset Trackers” I see hospitals nursing homes advertise on a regular basis.
But I am a product of this, I own 1/3 of my parents house, but we switched ownership about 10 years before my father got really sick. So I have a biased opinion on this.
Should my mom be forced to move and live in poverty because my father didn’t die quick enough?
Maybe she could have signed off on the house to the state, lived in the house took care of it till she passed and the state would cover the $7,000 a year in taxes…might be an alternative.
starting with the massive Medicaid program filled by formerly middle-class seniors who have transferred or hidden their assets.
Should my mom be forced to move and live in poverty because my father didn’t die quick enough?
Sounds like yet another example of the need for a modern, rational health care system. Like everyone else in the developed world has.
Exactly Alpha…
Like everyone else in the developed world
has ??
“We’re Number 37″ - Paul Hipp”
Try it on You Tube…
Sounds like yet another example of the need for a modern, rational health care system. Like everyone else in the developed world has.
Here’s an example of modern, rational health care in other developed nations (h/t James Taranto):
“A mentally ill, suicidal teenager was ferried around for hours by an ambulance crew because no NHS [National Health Service] unit would accept her,” reports the BBC:
news dot bbc dot co dot uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/suffolk/8385889.stm
As opposed to the united states where she would be released to the streeet. Trust me a large share of the homeless in this country have severe mental problems. I worked in a psych unit for a while and in the short time I was there I saw the revolving door. Person is released then sets fire to his apartment. No one will take him so he is released again and picks a fight with a man on the street. I returned a year later he’s back in the hospital. Another lady showed up at the airport in Co with a bag of cash, turns out her husband couldn’t deal with her so he put her on a plane with a bag of cash. After a short stay in the hospital the patient was put on a plane back to her home state.
You might want to pick your examples of how bad socialized medicine is a bit more carefully.
Dude:
You can find health care horror stories in every country. Discussing these stories by themselves is not a sensible way to compare various systems.
You can find health care horror stories in every country. Discussing these stories by themselves is not a sensible way to compare various systems.
Agreed. Unfortunately, one modus operandi of the gov’t health care zealots is to trot out endless tales of woe about people going bankrupt because of high medical bills. What they ignore is that in most other countries, it wouldn’t be an option to get the treatment at all, or only after prohibitive waiting periods. People die rather than going bankrupt because the system won’t allow them to incur the costs in the first place.
That’s almost right. In a government run system, people get on a waiting list and may die before getting treatment. In the present free market system, people without coverage do not get on the waiting list. Effectively, their waiting list is forever.
In a free market system, those without “coverage” still have the possibility of getting treatment– they may have savings to tap, or they may get help from private charity, or friends/family, or be able to take out loans. In a government-run system, it’s one size fits all, and usually not very comfortably for any.
Would you also prefer the North Korean method of food distribution, where everything is handed out via ration coupons and no private initiative is allowed? After all, isn’t food a basic human necessity?
The unfortunate problem of the free market system is that those who have a medical problem face bankruptcy if they have no insurance. From my understanding, even those with insurance face issues because the insurers refuse to cover already existing conditions. This would affect virtually everybody over the age of fifty.
The medical system in the US is not efficient. The very top is well covered, as one would expect. However, aggregate numbers indicate that the US system is about twice as expensive as the European system and fails to cover somewhere between 15-40 million, depending on whose numbers you believe.
Philosophically, a private system is governed by profit. This is tempered by consumer’s need for lowest cost. In the ideal world, this works but really, who drives around comparing hospital prices when you have a medical emergency?
Food and medical care are not analogous. Even though some treatments like plastic surgery will attract too many users (which is why plastic surgery is rarely covered by goverment) other treatments do not invite overconsumption (colonoscopy, anyone?) the same way that free food does.
The US system is not working well. This manifests itself in lower life expectancies than other nations. The free market works well for many things but health care is not one of them.
Nicely argued posts, gonzonista. More please.
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-12-06 15:01:00
…Agreed. Unfortunately, one modus operandi of the gov’t health care zealots is to trot out endless tales of woe about people going bankrupt because of high medical bills. What they ignore is that in most other countries, it wouldn’t be an option to get the treatment at all, or only after prohibitive waiting periods. People die rather than going bankrupt because the system won’t allow them to incur the costs in the first place.
————————-
Many of us do not want a “communist” healthcare system where people do not have a choice. It seems most of us want a basic level of coverage for all U.S. citizens. If someone wants more than that, they can either buy supplemental insurance or pay out of pocket.
You’re buying into the scare tactics, LVG. My entire maternal family lives in Europe, and they would never want to trade their healthcare system for ours.
Perhaps health care reform would work better if cost comparisons where somehow incorporated into it. For example, my brother in FL recently had a mild heart attack. Four days in a hospital and a stent later, $88k. He was talking to a co-worker who also had the same thing at a different hospital - 4 days and a stent - and his cost was $50k. They both have the same insurance since they work at the same place.
Imagine taking your vehicle somewhere for repairs. Nobody can give you an estimate. You get your car repaired and months later you are still getting new bills from mechanics who where never even on the premises when your vehicle was getting repaired. When you call your auto insurance they tell you that it is their custom to pay it, even if the mechanic never even looked at your vehicle.
If the car repair business operated like medical, then the cost of a new starter would not be $400. Would be more like $4,000?
Let me throw a very radical idea out there. If there was no such thing as medicaid and everybody simply paid the full freight, then what would be the cost of 4 days and a stent?
“I own 1/3 of my parents house, but we switched ownership about 10 years before my father got really sick.”
Why couldn’t she have sold it, moved to an assisted living or senior citizen apts, and used the proceeds to pay rent?
Of course that would have left nothing for you…
Its called talking to your family about end of life care….not many parents and kids can be honest about these things until it too late.
We did this 10 years before my father got ill…all of you talk about retirement planning and preserving capital…Yes we were Good Americans and followed the law…so I am happy.
——————————————
Of course that would have left nothing for you…
other states haven’t created a (safe and still economically active yet urban and walkable) place like it. NYC is irreplaceable and unique. I don’t care for visiting it myself, but even I could appreciate the tingling vitality of the place.
In a lot of ways it is….most of the people who live in Manhattan don’t drive or own a car. you just have to allow for much more commuting time if you wanted to save money on rent .
Plus i think we are unique you can ride the entire subway for 1 fare and then get a free bus transfer
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NYC is irreplaceable and unique
Reminds me of that scene in the movie “the Big Chill” about the importance of rationalizations…
-Rationalizations are more important than s#x.
-Nothing’s more important than s#x.
-Have you ever gone a week without a rationalization?
‘It appears that once you’re underwater on your house (all of my wife’s relatives own) you’re willing to “try something new.”’
What happens if they move to Georgia?
1) Will they walk away and hand over the keys to the lender, sell short, or what?
2) What will they do for housing in Georgia, given that they will leave behind negative equity in Florida?
3) Is your wife sufficiently rational to connect the dots between the plight of these relatives and where your family might be headed if you jump into purchasing an artificially-overpriced house at this point in the real estate cycle?
1. Probably all the above
2. No clue — they don’t think that far ahead
3. Yes, we’ll stick with renting. She’s good, but this past week was a close call.
If your wife is fixated on buying, I suggest two strategies:
1) Make sure you have a strong prospect of staying put with a reliable locally-based income stream for the next several years. If not, point to the example of your underwater relatives as evidence of the risk of buying during a housing bust when you are not sure of your future employment outlook in the locale where you reside.
2) If you are sufficiently confident that you want to permanently settle in the area you live, and that your employment situation will remain stable through the remaining duration of the financial crisis, then execute serial lowball offers at your best guesstimate of where housing prices are going to settle out once the mania has fully subsided.
“2. No clue — they don’t think that far ahead”
It seems like the few Americans who are willing and able to look into the future before deciding have a massive advantage over the vast bovine herd which cannot see as far ahead as tomorrow.
the vast bovine herd which cannot see as far ahead as tomorrow.
I disagree, most Americans only see 10 minutes into the future.
“…most Americans only see 10 minutes into the future.”
They are included in the vast bovine herd that cannot see as far ahead as tomorrow.
Many can’t, but many won’t.
Some have tried and didn’t like what they saw.
And who can blame them? The future ISN’T so bright you have to wear shades.
“What will they do for housing in Georgia…?”
I’ve been pondering this question for a while. In the next few years, a lot of people will lose their jobs and/or their houses. Since ‘freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose’, these people are free to move elsewhere and try again. What states will see the most in-migration? Florida will still be the place that’s warm year ’round and has beaches, both of which are attractive to the newly poor.
Will the mess FL is in now cause people to avoid it, or will the (coming) cheap rents and good weather still attract the newly rootless? Maybe Florida will rise like a Pheonix from the ashes of FB’s dreams. Or maybe everyone will move to Georgia, except they don’t have enough beachfront.
Why does everyone want to move to GA? Stay away. It’s awful here. Crime ridden, awful weather. You want nothing to do with this joint.
Lol. That’s what I say to people who want to move to SoCal.
I don’t know. What made you want to move there? Did Joeyhood in CA get tiresome?
+1 Pbear….
“Why does everyone want to move to GA?”
Nobody wants so move to Georgia, just my wife’s family that lives here. That’s like ten people. Everyone else I know thinks Georgia is blah.
Where in Georgia do they want to move? Would they all move to the same spot? It’s kind of an interesting idea, really. Uproot the whole (more or less) family and move to another state. You’d instantly have family/roots in your new area. It’s like something from pioneer times. They should invent a new religion along the way.
Not to mention the A-holes who live there and post regularly on the blog…
Pressboard, I didn’t realize you lived in Georgia.
Eddie?
“she bought the house for $48k and HELOC’d it for $158k two years ago.”
Sounds like she essentially sold it to the bank near the peak! Well played….
You mean bought it from the bank?
I have a young co-worker that can’t wait to leave this place and get his new business started where all the money is: Phoenix, AZ
Ouch!
Why Treasury Needs a Plan B for Mortgages ~ NYT
AFTER months of playing pretend, the Treasury Department conceded last week that the Home Affordable Modification Program, its plan to aid troubled homeowners by changing the terms of their mortgages, was a dud. The 10-month-old program is going nowhere, the Treasury said, because big institutions charged with implementing it are dragging their feet.
“The banks are not doing a good enough job,” said Michael S. Barr, assistant Treasury secretary for financial institutions, in an article published last Sunday in The New York Times.
After the government spent hundreds of billions of dollars bailing out banks, the Obama administration rolled out the $75 billion loan modification plan to show its support for beleaguered homeowners. But if the proof of the pudding is in the eating, homeowners are going hungry.
A stalled loan modification plan might not be worrisome if the foreclosure crisis were abating. Yet at the end of September, a record 14.4 percent of borrowers were either in foreclosure or delinquent on their mortgages, the Mortgage Bankers Association reported.
It’s time for the government to acknowledge the flaws in its program and create one that might actually succeed. Only then will the supply of homes for sale, and the pressure on prices associated with that overhang, be reduced.
“A stalled loan modification plan might not be worrisome if the foreclosure crisis were abating. Yet at the end of September, a record 14.4 percent fo borrowers were either in foreclosure or delinquent on the mortgages …”
Time to produce another Keep Hope Alive program.
That’s what this is all about, IMO; Keeping hope alive so the hopeful FBs will keep up with their payments instead of walking away and leaving to the banks - and to the neighborhood - something it doesn’t need: an empty house.
Keeping Hope Alive keeps the banks alive. The banks get to keep the dollars that come rolling in from hopeful FBs and thus can rebuild their devastated balance sheets. That’s the good news.
Now for the bad news: Since the banks are keeping incoming dollars instead of recycling them in the form of new loans, the number of dollars circulating throught the economy is diminishing.
This is deflation, pure and simple.
“This is deflation, pure and simple”.
I concur, and deflation is one of the bogymen that keeps B.Bubbles Bernanke awake at night. So wonder what the FED will do to try and fight off this foe?
wmbz:
I’ll keep saying it we will awake one morning and $1-2 maybe 3000 will we wiped off our credit cards….and those that don’t have a balance will get that to spend.
Its our last hope at a real street level stimulus.
Dj, you keep talking about relief from credit card debt. That relief is happening. My friend that got himself into credit card debt has been delinquent on two cards. One of the companies has called him. The other has not. The company that reached him is owed $13,000. They made him an offer that they would accept $5,000 as full payment. That is a 60 percent reduction. How much more relief can people get?
Not one thing that could and will come out of D.C. would surprise me any more, you may be correct, who knows.
As Buffet said last year, $600.00 won’t ’stimulate’ anything, but if you send every one a check for say, $10,000.00 then that may get things going for a while.
Not his exact words but close.
True, but he loses that card pretty much forever. which is fine if you have a bunch of cards, but if you have been very responsible in the past and have only 1 or 2 cards you cant afford to lose the last card….might as well let then sue, and save the 40% and put in into a secured card to rebuild your credit.
I have only 2 never been late or maxxed out or taken a cash advance..but still Its better to be sued and let a judge wipe off the debt
Also it would be better if he paid the whole $13K and the cc company lowered the interest rate to 1-2% They are getting money for free from the fed.
Of course they will NEVER off that option..i wonder why?
———————–
That is a 60 percent reduction. How much more relief can people get?
I really do not know what I would buy if the government gave me $10k. There’s nothing we need unless I decided to trade my straight drive for an automatic. I’m getting tried of shifting gears after 20+ years of it. I wouldn’t buy a new car though.
I think there is a tremendous fear that as things progress, more and more will simply stop paying their debts and go bankrupt. I know of a couple of people with high CC balances who stopped paying after their banks raised their interest rates to close to 30%. Their rational? The banks are acting unethically, so … I have to say, in the same position I would probably take the hit to my credit score and tell them to take a hike as well.
If most people are living on the edge financially, how would it even be possible for them to service 30% interest on massive credit card debt?
Wolfgirl:
Its not wants it’s needs most people have pent-up needs they have been putting off. Like a new suit for job interviews, teeth cleaned and fixed, engine light on…so I don’t think people will rush out and buy a plasma TV so they can watch the NFL in HD..maybe 2-3 years ago but not today.
So most of the stimulus money would be kept at home, which will be a real stimulus
I really do not know what I would buy if the government gave me $10k. There’s nothing we need
Handing cash to people will just remind them how bad things are, if they want to change the psychology they need to create jobs. Instead of handing people a 10k check that they may or may not spend and that reminds them that things are in the crapper. Give them a tax credit for improving the energy efficiency of their home. Pay 50-75% of the cost for windows insulation etc. This will improve their well being and will create jobs that will change the psychology. We should have been doing this with all the wasted dollars we’ve spent on TARP, unemployment, wars etc. We’d have done a lot more to combat the economic collapse and terrorism.
In 2010, if the credit card situation is as bad as you all describe, there will be no way the people will allow government to enact new entitlement programs or get involved in industries that the Constitution forbids it to get into. The expenses are tallying up higher and higher.
The cure will be to do nothing. No more handouts. Let young people move in with their parents and cut expenses for their families by sharing resources.
Let house prices fall where they may.
Recessions and depressions are medicines that must be taken for excesses. Artificial stimuli are not cures, but band-aids to only make the political party in power look good as the recession seems to end but only is masked.
The crash is inevitable. If it gets pushed off by artificial stimuli and more IOUs that later generations have to pay for, it will crash harder.
“If it gets pushed off by artificial stimuli and more IOUs that later generations have to pay for, it will crash harder.”
How so?
They should have done this 20 years ago…it should be law, not just a short term fix for our mess today.
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Pay 50-75% of the cost for windows insulation etc.
Or better yet, have the Fed mail everyone a big fat check. Say $50K per household. That would take care of deflation in a jiffy.
But we all know that won’t happen in a million years.
Don’t know,
Artificial stimuli traps more people into borrowing and thus digging themselves further into the hole. Every debt must eventually be paid.
I accept that if every FB uses jingle mail, the banks will have to dump the shadow inventory and it will cause RE prices to drop much further and eventually undershoot the true value. It will and it should put a lot of the banks out of business for making stupid loans to dishonest or ignorant people.
NYC Boy:
Yeah, I’d say a 60% shave is a pretty decent cut.
For your pal, that’s $8,000. The question becomes how quickly your friend can save $8,000. Let’s say he’s able to put away $250 a month, which seems reasonable considering his nascient (at best) ability to save and act responsibly. At that rate, saving $8,000 would take 32 months.
Of course, this doesn’t take into account the $8K worth of product that he gets to keep for free.
Sounds like a plumb deal to me…even if his credit is shot for 7 years.
Incredible b.s., ain’t it?
I say again, what deflation?
Houses and new cars? Sure. Some luxury items. Whoopee. Nothing on my “needs” list is deflating. In fact, it’s inflating heavily.
The problem with giving people incentives to improve their homes with new windows/roofs etc. is that the value of said home is still sinking, or stinking, as surely as the mighty Titanic sunk beneath the North Atlantic waves. We regularly get nice, desperate salesmen going door-to-door offering us deals on windows, roofing and such. We politely decline. Why in the world would we sink any money into “improving” a deflating asset ? If it needed repairs, that would be different, but it doesn’t really need anything done to it at present. If we spent $15,000 on new windows, we’d never make it back, and we’d just be giving the next owners a nice Christmas present.
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-06 14:44:52
I say again, what deflation?
Houses and new cars? Sure. Some luxury items. Whoopee. Nothing on my “needs” list is deflating. In fact, it’s inflating heavily.
———————-
eco,
Even housing is inflating around us. I’ve also heard that prices of used cars is going back up because more people are looking for used cars, and there is very little inventory of new cars.
I agree. The deflation — which is the primary undercurrent — has morphed into inflation for the time-being.
B. Bubbles Bernanke and Timmay…the reincarnation of Laurel and Hardy.
Proposed Plan B:
Rather than concocting more financial engineering scams to lure still more greater fools into purchasing homes they cannot afford, step back and let the invisible hand work of the free market work its magic to restore affordability based on local incomes and the ability of households to repay mortgage loans that do not financially crush them. Before you know it, banks will be confidently lending again against sensibly valued collateral and UHS will be back in business (albeit making lower commissions than during the peak of the mania). In other words, true recovery will be underway.
I think the problem is the invisible hand of the free market would crush our current banking system and send our economy, and the world’s, into a free fall. It should never have gotten to this point, I agree. But here we are.
Is it really possible to stop a real estate market correction once it is in full swing, or only to merely slow it down?
Exhibit A: What happened with efforts to stop the Japanese real estate collapse that started in the early 1990s?
I realize that it is different here because this is America…
I never said it could be stopped.
But if a slow rolling crash can perhaps save your country from the abyss, it may well prove preferable to the alternative. I think a large-scale crash would destabilize a heck of a lot more than just real estate prices. It might end up destabilizing a lot of people’s heads from their necks. I know some here (not you) claim they want that to happen, but I think that just shows a lack of imagination on their part.
I’ll take Japan over Somalia.
I know some here (not you) claim they want that to happen, but I think that just shows a lack of imagination on their part.
That is a very charitable way to put it.
I was just explaining the other day about the turbulence of the 1960s.
Some of you remember. Many of you never experienced it. It can happen again and you REALLY don’t want that.
A-freakin’ men, eco.
The banks are doing a fine job — for their shareholders.
Did the government actually spend that $75 billion, or do they still have it, since the banks don’t want it?
banks are doing a fine job — for their shareholders ??
On our dime….
This fine job for shareholders will help puff up bank’s stock prices which will allow them to suck in, er, sell more shares to investors which will help restore their destroyed balance sheets.
Unfortunately, the government’s effort to reduce the supply of homes for sale, and the pressure on prices associated with that overhang IS the flaw in its policy.
It’s time for the government to acknowledge the flaws in its program and create one that might actually succeed. Only then will the supply of homes for sale, and the pressure on prices associated with that overhang, be reduced.
——————-
Once again, these “experts” don’t get it. The reason their experiments aren’t working is because **PRICES ARE STILL TOO HIGH.**
The solution to the problem is to allow prices to fall. That is the only thing that will put a floor under housing prices…you have to let the prices reach that floor first!!!
People are in trouble **because prices were too high.** Let me repeat that another way: The problem is that prices are too high !!!!
Do they honestly not get this?
(Sorry, I get so frustrated with all the idiocy in Washington.)
Obama Promises Job Creation Ideas ~ WSJ
WASHINGTON – U.S. President Barack Obama, in his weekly radio address Saturday, promised to unveil new job-creation ideas next week but emphasized that he also remains focused on policies that should help prop up the economy in the long run.
“I didn’t run for president simply to manage the crisis of the moment, while kicking our most pressing problems down the road,” he said. “And my commitment to you, the American people, is that I will focus every single day on how we can get people back to work, and how we can build an economy that continues to make real the promise of America for generations to come.”
Mr. Obama’s address comes at the end of a busy week, in which the president unveiled an updated strategy on the war in Afghanistan and held a high-profile summit at the White House to drum up ideas for accelerating job growth.
Even though the Labor Department Friday morning released unemployment data that was better than many on Wall Street had expected, Mr. Obama said his administration remains focused on ways to quickly help address the ongoing woes in the labor market.
The federal government unemployment data, which showed that the unemployment rate dipped from 10.2% in October to 10% in November, reflects “a continued positive trend of diminishing job loss,” Mr. Obama said.
But that is not enough, said the president, adding that a good trend isn’t good enough for the millions of Americans who have lost their jobs in the recession.
“I’ll be unveiling additional ideas aimed at accelerating job growth and hiring as we emerge from this economic storm,” he said.
Maybe if Obama gave a speech every day… (there could be an entire industry based on setting up for his speeches)
I got dibs on whatever company prints all those nifty backdrops! Just watch TV. Every single commentator/expert/award show waif/politician/pro athlete/coach who steps up to a microphone to speak has a handy backdrop behind him/her, emblazoned with either a Nike swoosh or a beer logo, or 1984-style propaganda like “jobs for future” or whatever.
You can’t outsource this stuff because there’s no time to ship it.
I think some of them are virtual. The real ones are very, very, VERY expensive.
Maybe if Obama sent more troops to Afghanistan… (US could expend/waste more weaponry and stimulate domestic manufacturing).
Maybe if Obama subsidized pimps operating underage/illegal-immigrant brothels… (???)!!
Maybe if Michelle took the 747 shopping with the girls more frequently… (jet-fuel stimulus/oil price stabilization to help keep jobs in the energy sector).
Accelerating job growth? Good luck with that. Despite FDR’s best efforts, unemployment stayed above 15% for all but about one year during the 1932-1939 time span. And we all know what finally caused it to decline: massive govt spending increases, including giving most of the male members of a whole generation jobs that required wearing a uniform.
So, what country/countries will The One get to attack us?
His jobs creation program should be started at peak unemployment. That way he can take credit for the natural decline in unemployment.
I spoke with a real-a-tor yesterday that handles short sales, he said it has taken as long as 6 months that get a response on an offer. I asked if he thought the new rules would help, answer in short, no. I also asked if the $6500.00 to $8000.00 had helped sales in our area (S.C.)he said it has had very little impact. This fellow is pretty realistic and thinks RE is in for a very long and slow recovery.
Banks Take Losses on Short Sales as Foreclosures Soar (Update2)
(Bloomberg) — Drew Schlosser tried for two years to sell his three-bedroom Punta Gorda, Florida, waterfront condominium for less than he owed on its two mortgages. The deal only went through last month when Wells Fargo & Co. agreed to take a $165,000 loss on the loans.
Even after he had an offer of $155,000 for the property, it took five months for the San Francisco-based lender to approve the purchase, a so-called short sale, in which the bank accepts less than the balance owed on a property. Schlosser said earlier offers had fallen through as bidders lost faith the bank would take less than the $320,000 in two mortgages.
“It was just kind of a mess,” said Schlosser, 31, a market research company director living in Estero, Florida. “You really have to get buyers who are patient.”
Banks are beginning to go along with short sales in increasing numbers, three years into a U.S. housing slump that pushed the economy into a recession and cut resale values by 30 percent from the peak in July 2006. Short sales almost tripled to 40,000 in the first six months of 2009 from the same period a year earlier. Yet for each short sale, there were 25 foreclosures started or completed in the first half of this year, according to data from the Office of Thrift Supervision and the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency.
“It’s really finally dawning on banks that they’re better off with a short sale,” said Richard Green, director of the Lusk Center for Real Estate at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles. “I think banks were in denial.”
Market research….huh?….And These are the Clowns that get the jobs while i am still outta work….sad isn’t it.
—————–
Schlosser, 31, a market research company director living in Estero, Florida
DJ, I have a feeling Drew is a FORMER market research “director” and is now a realtor.
www dot realtyworldfl dot com/
agents/6xk8gpo8uuy.shtml
He lists Gartner Group as one of his former employers. They do market research.
And then there’s this quote from the article: “For sellers like Drew Schlosser, who bought 10 properties in Florida as investments during the housing bubble, getting a short sale was a relief even if the process was difficult.”
I talked to an HONEST realtor yesterday. I went in to talk about renting a condo. HE said that he felt obliged to at least mention the extension of the first time home buyers credit and asked if I had heard about it. I told him I was a strong believer in housing bubble and that the era of quick appreciation was over, etc. He agreed with me, said that he thought there was going to be another huge downturn because of the foreclosures being held off the market and said he was telling people that buying was only for folks that intended to stay in the house for 10 or more years.
Yeah, it was possible that he read my attitude and responded to that, but that would require at least being intelligent.
I think I am going to take the new place. It is slightly less nice than my current place in superficial terms (closet doors are uglier, kitchen isn’t “open,” bathroom is smaller and a few other things. But in substance it is better - location, walkability of neighborhood, view, security, closet space, amenities and many others.
Oh, and since the utilities are included, it is about the same cost as my current place. I think it is time to take the plunge.
I talked to an HONEST realtor yesterday.
What a coincidence! I had drinks and dinner with Santa Claus last night. It was really cool.
Thanks for keeping him busy while I was out with his Mrs.
Of course you should take it! A crummy closet door and smaller bath in exchange for walkability, security, view, closets, paid-for utilities?
Grab the place! Immediately.
Poor Polly She is so used to the finer things in life, that a smaller bath will just ruin her Mr. Bubble Time..
I remember relating a story about how my sister & brother-in-law had put in a short sale offer on a massive 1960’s lake home which was in terrible need of repairs and updates, but was a gem designed by 196’s architect icon Minoru Yamasaki. We had grown up down the road from the sub it’s in. Anyway, the bank stalled and stalled for 7 months about even getting back to their realtor regarding their offer. No one else would even be close to being able to redo the house while preserving its architectural integrity, so it would have been good for everyone had their offer been accepted. They finally gave up and bought a lot across the lake, and built their own house new. They expect to be moved in by Christmas. Amazingly, the bank that owns the Yamasaki got back to them 10 months later, with a gracious acceptance of their original offer. In the meantime, the house they had lived in for 18 years had sold, so they needed to take some action. They told the bank ( through their realtor ) ” Thanks, but we’ve moved on.” I can imagine this scenario being repeated 10’s of thousands of times across the country. The bank lost buyers with excellent credit, jobs, and income by stalling around so long. I think they’re better off with building their house to their own design. It’s a beauty, and much smaller and more energy-efficient than the Yamasaki house.
More anecdotal stories…
1. Talked to a realtor who is very familiar with one of the very high-end (think Bill Gates, British royalty, celebrities and athletes, etc.) areas in San Diego. Her family has lived in this area for a long time, and they own a lot of very expensive properties (the realtor and spouse only own one house there).
Anyway, she starts to tell me about how scared everyone is in that area because they are all broke. With the stock market losses, and high-end job losses (that cannot be easily replaced), in addition to the massive debt they have piled on during the good times, it sounds like a lot of these apparently wealthy people are hanging on by a thread.
The realtor said there is a lot of fear regarding the RE market in the high end, and what will happen next year…and the years after that. Lots of people getting geared up to sell their high-end homes so they can salvage some part of their retirement plans. Maybe we can expect a lot of inventory in the next couple of years, especially in these higher-end markets. IMHO, this is what many of us have been waiting for, because it will finally compact the spread we’ve all witnessed across the country (globe?): low end is pretty reasonable, but the high end is still near peak levels. We might finally see the tail end of this correction.
2. Some friends of ours had the sole wage earner lose a job last spring. Luckily, they were renting as they were waiting for a new house to be built. They managed to cancel the contract, but their rental got foreclosed on right around the same time.
The primary wage earner was out of work (highly-paid, highly-skilled, very specific work) for much longer than they had anticipated. Finally got a job offer and were back in the mortgage lender’s office before even making it to the first day at the new job. They were approved for “whatever they wanted.” I know they have some money, but not what most HBBers would consider “safe” in this situation.
They are in escrow as I type…
IOW, lending is still very loose, as far as I’m concerned. This stuff is crazy.
Oh, and the realtor told me that lots of people in this upper-end area had HELOC’ed and cashed-out all of their “equity” during the bubble. Many of these people had owned their homes free and clear before that, or they had very small balances on their mortgages. It could get ugly…
Ca Renter ,I’m curious ,what did these people buy with all that cash out money ? I know that some bought other houses at boom prices ,but what in the heck did they spend that kind of money on ? Did
they remodel their kitchens ,put in a new pool ? The hype during the boom about letting your house work for you to give you the life style you deserve no doubt sucked these people in . It’s crazy because one should be thinking about lasting when they get that age and if anything cutting back living expenses . These people are going to have a problem if they have any medical problems . They don’t have enough equity for a reverse mortgage either. Crazy .
what did these people buy with all that cash out money ?
Ditto here…
“what did these people buy with all that cash out money?”
They bought four dollar lattes and didn’t blink an eye, for one thing. Since money was so easy to get it lost some of its value.
IMO, money has two values:
1) What the money can buy, and
2) What it cost to get the money.
If money is easy to get then it is treated frivolusly and people spend it like there is no tommorow. If enough people get this easy money for a long enough time then a sustainable economy evolves into something less sustainable; it morphs into a consumer based economy, for example.
When money becomes harder to get then it is treated with respect and the friviolous spending dries up and the consumer based economy shrinks back to a economy that is more sustainable.
This is where we are today, IMO.
“Easy come, easy go.”
You don’t heloc a $10 million dollar house to buy lattes, combo. I’d guess the cash out was used to buy investment properties of some kind - highly leveraged of course - which is why they are so worried. There is no chance it will come back. If it were all in hedge funds, they could hope for a return to the old value.
My thoughts also Polly…In the heady days the personal residence was the quickest way to get cash with the most leverage…I am sure some was invested somewhere and some was pi$$ed away..
YES we are consumers of services we are not Americans anymore…we need a change.
and the consumer based economy shrinks back to a economy that is more sustainable.This is where we are today, IMO.
“…highly leveraged of course…”
Not to mention about as illiquid and undiversified as an investment can get…
… in short, a very dumb investment for anyone but the strongest hands with the deepest pockets.
Perhaps many of those people in high end homes are doctors and attorneys and RE agents who have to live a lavish lifestyle to impress their clients.
Taking a cue from Stanley and Danko’s “The Millionaire Next Door,” most millionaires in America live in modest houses, drive modest cars, wear cheap watches, wear inexpensive clothes, have low incomes and high net worth - they know how to save. In the same book, they mention many high income people (partners in law firms) feel as though they have to impress clients. They are living beyond their means. They have to live in expensive neighborhoods and they have to drive expensive cars.
So it should not be any mystery.
It would be very tough to live on the interest of $500,000. I can do it with $700,000 if I put it all in AAZAX. But I’d live in a studio apartment, get rid of all my junk, and get around on mountain bike in tucson AZ. I can get a reasonable studio in a safe location for $400 or $500 per month.
At 5-7%/yr most of us could do ok to quite well..
————————-
It would be very tough to live on the interest of $500,000
I agree those who have it generally do not flaunt it. When you have wealth it is usually advisable to keep quite. Money is good only for financial reasons.
“The hype during the boom about letting your house work for you to give you the life style you deserve no doubt sucked these people in. It’s crazy …”
So were tulip prices in Holland. And Beanie Baby prices, Cabbage Patch doll prices, dot-com stock prices… All were crazy.
A saying: “Human beings are not thinking entities that feel; Human beings are feeling entities that think.”
People are lemmings.
Don’t forget the “Pet Rock”…I think that was the best one…
“People are lemmings…”
with no memories of past lemmings stampedes over the edges of cliffs.
Be patient, they are getting the lifestyle they deserve.
HW, given the very high-end neighborhoods mentioned, I’m thinking that a particular type of white powder was rather effective in absorbing all of that excess cash…
“I know that some bought other houses at boom prices ,but what in the heck did they spend that kind of money on ?”
Globe-trotting vacations and leases on fancy cars can eat up your home equity ATM cash in a hurry…
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-12-06 06:08:40
Ca Renter ,I’m curious ,what did these people buy with all that cash out money ?
——————-
Wiz,
I do not know all the details of their spending, but by connecting the dots, it looks like things went like this:
-lots of very fancy, long vacations in exotic places with family and friends
-other RE investments
-yes, hedge funds, private equity, etc.
-investing in new businesses
-new pools, kitchens, bathrooms, and other big upgrades (remember, these are very fancy homes, and a new kitchen can easily run into the six-digit territory)
-fun toys like planes, yachts, exotic cars (sometimes, multiple exotic cars for their collections) etc.
———————-
All in all, you’d be surprised how easy it is to spend many millions of dollars in a fairly short period of time, especially when you run in “those kinds” of circles.
Has anyone ever read 740 Park by Michael Gross? It’s a history of a top NYC apartment building with some interesting stories about the rise and fall and rise of RE. A lot if it is social gossip, but some of the bits about the building in the depression, etc are interesting.
SFH lending is extremely loose. Some buyers are offering above list price and receiving kickbacks on top of the tax credit. The tax incentive is encouraging people to do really dumb things.
Agreed.
It still stuns me that these wealthy people don’t keep, say, a half-million in cash reserve. Enough that, if all else fails, they can pull out of the system, buy outright in podunk, and live off the interest, like a normal person. After all, isn’t that the whole point of being rich? So that you don’t have the stress of ever truly needing a job, or ever wondering where your next meal is coming from, ever? Instead, they spend more than they have in the hopes of making more than they spent. They are actively choosing to be as insecure as your average J6P.
I just. don’t. get it.
“It still stuns me that these wealthy people don’t keep, say, a half-million in cash reserve. Enough that, if all else fails, they can pull out of the system, buy outright in podunk, and live off the interest, like a normal person.”
You would need more than $500k to live on the interest, today anyway.
You would need more than $500k to live on the interest, today anyway ??
How much cash earning interest would you need to match the 54 year old police Captain that retired here recently with $14,000. + per month plus benefits…
$28,000 interest from $700,000 in AAZAX (municipal bond fund) in Tucson is possible to live on.
Thanks Bill. I don’t have a handle on how much it takes to live off of interest. And that could change very quickly depending on capital gains taxes. But I hope you get the general idea. However, it probably would be better to buy a house outright in a podunk state with low taxes.
Municipal bond funds can also change very quickly.
True. Although AAZAX has had a good history since 1994, including two stock market bubbles and a recession in 2001 and the current recession. Alliance Bernstein muni funds typically invest in the hiqh quality bonds and do not restrict their investing to one state.
I feel safer in a bond fund than a single bond.
You need roughly $1,000,000 to live a low profile, avg. middle class life from the interest and even that depends on the investment and stability of that investment.
I figure precious metals roughly can give me an annual return of 7%, government securities 4% and stocks 10%. With my mix, I figure I can get 7.7% ARR, provided I rebalance regularly.
Instead of rebalancing once a year, I rebalance when precious metals goes below 10% of my N.W. or it gets above 15%.
My problem is I have 33% of my net worth tied up in tax deferral, so I cannot draw from that amount.
If I am exactly right on the ARR of the three components, I would not need to rebalance. Most likely I will be wrong, but rebalancing makes things right!
I guess it all gets down to how one defines “wealthy people.” A reread of The Great Gatsby might be in order at this point…
Now, if youre blue
And you dont know where to go to
Why dont you go where fashion sits
Puttin on the ritz
Different types who wear a daycoat
Pants with stripes and cutaway coat
Perfect fits
Puttin on the ritz
Dressed up like a million dollar trooper
Trying hard to look like gary cooper
Super-duper
Come, lets mix where rockefellers
Walk with sticks or umberellas
In their mitts
Puttin on the ritz
“After all, isn’t that the whole point of being rich? So that you don’t have the stress of ever truly needing job, or ever wondering where your next meal is coming from, ever?”
Logically it would seem so. Trouble is, some people aren’t logical.
Some of the people I know with money are under continous pressure to spend it, to keep up with each other. One loses status in his group if he voices concerns over something as trivial as the price of an item. If he is overly concerned about the cost of an item then, well, maybe he doesn’t belong in the group.
I know an engineering technician with a net worth of $3 million. He wears blue jeans and a t-shirt to work. Another technician has an even higher net worth. Their peers are other engineers of lower net worth. No pressure to spend lots of dough.
When I get to $2,000,000 I will downsize my job and work only 40 hour weeks. My major fun is fitness swimming, which requires a $41 per month membership to a sports club. I don’t need much else.
“I just. don’t. get it.”
You can’t take it with you.
Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
No luggage racks on mortuary transport vehicles…
True, but for someone not financially independent, it’s foolish to be a grasshopper during a recession when your job could be outsourced.
I have little doubt that the vast majority of human grasshoppers were caught completely by surprise at the onset of the Great Recession…
“After all, isn’t that the whole point of being rich? So that you don’t have the stress of ever truly needing a job, or ever wondering where your next meal is coming from, ever?”
You don’t know the power of the hedonic treadmill.
I must have that gold plated bentley or my life is meaningless.
“I just. don’t. get it.”
That is what separates you from the obscenely wealthy. You would be working to provide for your family or so that, at some point, you could quit working and enjoy life. Even if you found your business dealings challenging and stimulating, you probably have plenty of activities that interest you outside of earning money. They, however, work because they have a pathological obsession with wealth and status.
Not that I would recommend it, but Jack Welch’s book “Winning” is a good window into this mindset. Welch, who I think is a colossal d-bag, talks in one chapter about how he never understood “work/life balance” and how it never occurred to him, when he had his employees work around the clock or on weekends, that they might have had anyplace else they would rather be (!). He also admits that his failed marriages and strained relationship with his children are probably a result of his devoting all his time to increasing the company’s profits and his own wealth. So, the question (which Welch probably never asked) is, what makes a man a “winner”? I would argue that Welch is as big a loser as they come.
Now, probably anybody with even a small degree of soul or imagination, if they had the amount of money ol’ JW has accumulated, could find some way to amuse themselves other than just earning MORE money. And earning money by laying off thousands of people, and negatively effecting the employees and their families, even. I think Welch and others like him are the reason the country is in such a poor state today.
1980s “Greed is Good.”
And people fell for it. (Yeah, the 7 deadly sins are good. WTF?
)
Jack Welch is a colossal d-bag. He made the amazing discovery that turning a proud American manufacturing concern into a bank during a massive credit runup, and focusing only on monopoly products would lead to profits & wealth.
He’s one of those dorks who thinks he’s a genius when he was really just in the right place at the right time. Kind of like those realtors in Cali making money in 2005.
Thank you. I have had the same thoughts for several years now.
Me too! It made be sick how much the MSM sucked up to him. And then, during his divorce proceedings, you discover that he’s such a d-bag that his gazillion salary, and stock options aren’t enough. He has to have GE pay for his penthouses, and golf club memberships, and private planes and on and on. I thought making the big bucks meant you could afford this stuff on your own rather than stiffing stockholders.
Neutron Jack Welch is a monster: he and his Apprentices should be banned from any C-level position in America, IMHO.
Comment by oxide
2009-12-06 08:28:10
It still stuns me that these wealthy people don’t keep, say, a half-million in cash reserve.
—————-
You have to look at things from their perspective. They probably have **millions** on hand, but that is not good if you’re used to tens of millions.
The lifestyles these people live are something most of us can’t fathom. They spend tremendous amounts of money every single day just to maintain their homes/estates — whole crews who cook, clean, run errands, maintain, landscape, etc. their homes.
They have expensive parties and travel to expensive places. With their new wealth, their entire lifestyle (that they might have lived for decades) is no longer sustainable. To them, that results in panic. “Millions” will not sustain them in their current lifestyles for the rest of their lives (most are nearing retirement age).
“…it will finally compact the spread we’ve all witnessed across the country (globe?): low end is pretty reasonable, but the high end is still near peak levels. We might finally see the tail end of this correction.”
This is where things will get very interesting and chaotic, IMO. When high end homes start to revert to prices which reflect actual buyer purchasing power instead of crazy loans, the price of everything of lesser value will have to adjust downwards to compensate, and the quality gradient (increase in the real value of homes one can purchase by spending a little more money) will greatly steepen. My wife and I saw this in the Midwest when we bought our first home in the early 1990s. We initially looked in a price range where none of the houses were whatsoever attractive to us. After a short period of frustration, we slightly increased the top end of the price range in which we searched. To our amazement, there was a virtually unlimited supply of very livable housing available to us for only a slight increase in monthly outlay. This is one of the signs that the real estate market has bottomed out. We certainly aren’t there yet in San Diego!
I am frankly amazed at the glacially slow pace of this correction, but perhaps it should not be surprising given that the Fed has redefined ‘leaning into the wind’ to mean ‘opposing the tornadic forces of financial collapse.’ The more they oppose the forces of correction, the longer the bust will last.
PB,
One of the things I keep trying to remind myself of is that inflection points in the housing market are usually marked by price compression.
I was trying to explain this (again) to my beautiful DH just the other day, because he is really getting tired of waiting.
Based on my theory of price compression at inflection points, we are about midway through the correction. The top (and middle, for the exact reasons you’ve stated) still has a long way to fall. Just MHO.
A lot of greedy, stupid people are going to be laid low in the next year or two. Even helicopter money can’t forestall the inevitable - it can only delay it and thereby make it worse.
A lot of greedy, stupid people are going to be laid low in the next year or two ??
They are in the minority…They may have assisted in its cause but the sad part is the effect of this type of recession will take down more honest, hard working people than any other…
IMO, the majority of those greedy/stupid people who will be laid low by this GR already have been.
Got popcorn?
“A lot of greedy, stupid people are going to be laid low in the next year or two. Even helicopter money can’t forestall the inevitable - it can only delay it and thereby make it worse”
Which was the whole point in the first place. Delay the consequences so that the insiders can get out (unwind).
Bankers’ bonuses anyone?
+1
“Maybe we can expect a lot of inventory in the next couple of years, especially in these higher-end markets. IMHO, this is what many of us have been waiting for, because it will finally compact the spread we’ve all witnessed across the country (globe?): low end is pretty reasonable, but the high end is still near peak levels…
I don’t know if you’re correct or not in your assumption.
Let’s say you’re correct.
If so (that many people here are sitting on their haunches, chomping at the bit to purchase a massive, prized possession), then why the endless negative commentary toward those who coveted the same but were too stupid to wait?
Seems to me that there’s no difference in greed between those stupid enough to buy in 2005 and those waiting to buy fancy digs now. A 4,000 square foot home is a 4,000 square foot home, regardless of when it is purchased.
Don’t get me wrong - I’m definitely a capitalist. If you’ve the cash and you want a 4,000 square foot home, then by all means, go out and buy it.
It’s the apparent hypocrisy by many here that irritates the crap out of me. That, and the folks living off fat pensions and bragging that they’ve “made it” whilst draining assets from younger, hard-working Americans.
Are people here that covetous?
I’ve never been one to say people bought “too much house.” I’ve always said that they paid too much for it. There is a difference.
Still, I personally cannot stand the tacky McMansions and other displays of wealth. We’re not trying to buy a big house in the upper-class enclaves. We want a middle-tier house that is still priced too high.
If the high end falls, it will take the middle-tier out as well because of substitution — people will buy the bigger, nicer house if it’s priced $50K higher than the next level down, and this puts pressure on everything below it.
———————–
BTW, for people who covet those “fat pensions,” perhaps they ought to demand them as well. Workers have become way too apathetic in this country.
Wow. By golly. Your friends are (foolish) optimists, that’s for sure. My sister and her husband are building a new home as I have posted about above, but both have good employment records, much, much, much in savings, and will be in the home for the next 20 years. It’s designed for one-floor living, even though it has two stories. They won’t have to move to assisted living with the design they’ve chosen.
With ski lifts idle, Tamarack property owners fret about fate of once-booming resort. (AP)
Snyder built his 3,500-square-foot vacation retreat at Tamarack Resort four years ago, in an era marked by frenetic construction and new lifts whisking skiers to the 7,660-foot summit.
This week, he learned the lifts will be idle this winter — another casualty of the deepest recession since the Great Depression.
“It’s gone from, ‘I can’t wait to get out there, it’s so great,’ to ‘Why go?’” Snyder said in a phone interview from Texas.
Tamarack has come to a standstill as a Credit Suisse Group-led lending syndicate fights to recover at least a share of the $300 million the resort’s owners owe from a construction loan.
Tamarack’s majority owner Jean-Pierre Boespflug didn’t return a phone call seeking comment. Credit Suisse declined to comment.
Other Western ski resorts have also been hit by the recession. Southwestern Montana’s Moonlight Basin, near Big Sky, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection this month. In addition, the owners of the swanky members-only Yellowstone Club, also near Big Sky, liquidated opulent furniture in November.
Now, Bank of America is even fighting in court to repossess the ski lifts.
In a sign of just how far it’s fallen, Tamarack has become a target for bargain hunters. One chalet that sold for $900,000 in 2005 recently changed hands for just $200,000.
Matthew Castrigno, whose Idaho Resort Rentals in nearby Donnelly manages about 30 Tamarack properties for owners, said his business has been brisk as rental prices plunged by half, to $200 nightly for a three-bedroom chalet.
“You walk into them and you can tell a great amount of love and care went into the homes,” Castrigno said. “You know it’s someone’s personal statement. To see that dream completely lost, it’s sad.”
“In addition, the owners of the swanky members-only Yellowstone Club, also near Big Sky, liquidated opulent furniture in November.”
Hey, that’s better than heating the place with it.
During the last stagflation era, the 1970s I was a downhill skier. My dad always thought it was foolish to pay to go downhill skiing when I could go cross country skiing much cheaper. He had a good point.
Downhill skiing has always been a status sport where people could signal each other that they have money to burn.
Some of us just do it because we love it, BiLA. Being “seen” is totally irrelevant to the sport itself.
Just like your swimming. (Which, btw, I also love, but there’s not a lot of open water up here….)
“…One chalet that sold for $900,000 in 2005 recently changed hands for just $200,000.
Sounds about almost…right!
There’s a lot going on in the news about Tam-a-wreck these days. A mexican investment group wanted to buy it out, but they demanded that Credit Suisse subordinate their existing debt. No dice. What the heck did Jean-Pierre Buttplug expect?
This has to be the most awful example of condo collapse. People bought tony houses expecting walk-to-the-lifts skiing. Now all they have is an overpriced house in Valley County ID.
Several ski resorts in ID want to buy new lifts anyway, and are standing in line to get those that B of A wants to repossess.
http://www.idahostatesman.com/531/story/996222.html
http://www.idahostatesman.com/business/story/878565.html
“but the high end is still near peak levels. We might finally see the tail end of this correction.”
The next wave of resets should take care of these people. The ones who thought they were “waiting it out” may find that they rode the market down while throwing money away on feeding their alligator.
In today’s Post-Standard, one reader says Christmas traditions do harm to our planet:
To the Editor:
I believe we should think about doing away with Christmas. Our planet is in big trouble, and giving up Christmas would help to save it in many ways.
Not having to do extra driving, looking for gifts, would save on gas and therefore on carbon dioxide emissions.
Millions of trees would not be cut down, allowing them to grow large and to eat up the carbon dioxide which contributes to global warming.
The land normally used for Christmas tree farms could be planted with fast-growing hardwood forests to suck up even more CO2.
No Christmas lights or decorations would mean fewer utilities would be used, therefore saving on our natural resources.
There wouldn’t be so much stuff to swell our already fast-expanding landfills.
I think people would be calmer, happier and less stressed if they didn’t have to deal with the holiday. Many who live alone or have no family ties get depressed around Christmastime. There are even increased numbers of suicides. Not celebrating Christmas would mean folks could save money and not go further into debt buying presents that the recipients didn’t even want or need.
Those wishing to celebrate Christ could have their religious and/or family get-togethers and remember Him for whom Christmas was named. It seems like we’ve gotten rather far away from that.
Mary Armstrong
Cazenovia
I agree with Mary. Good post, wmbz.
I couldn’t agree more. This is my least fav time of year, I can’t stand the devaluation that occurs during this time. Give someone a gift on Nov 23rd, and it’s really appreciated and the person is genuinely happy. Give that same gift on Dec 25th, and there’s no appreciation, it’s an expectation, you HAVE to give me this gift because its’ Xmas.
Although I’m not a religious person, I did go to a religious school for many years, and, from my reading of the Bible, I think that Christ would be absolutely disgusted with what we’ve made his B-Day into. We have totally lost the point, it’s become nothing but a marketing engine for the retailers and a stress point for many/most of the population. I really don’t get the people who “like Christmas”, it doesn’t make sense to me (well, other than the slow-down at work and the reset into the new year, that I like!).
Christmas was my favorite time when I was a kid under 12. Even though I’ve been an atheist since I was seven years old. However these days Independence Day is my favorite time of year. Second do that is New Years Day.
Since New Years Day is only one week from Xmas, I can stand seven dull days. I look forward to my matching 401k contribution (although there is a possiblity of no match this year). I look forward to contributing to my 401k again for the new year. I look forward to a clean slate where perhaps politicians will change their tune and stop this insane spending (wishful thinking).
It’s too quiet during the Xmas-NY break. I look forward to social interaction with my colleagues at work. And I’m not getting together with my family this year since my taxes are taking too much of my paycheck to spend on airline tickets.
Being in a sunny area makes this time of year more tolerable. During the last few years from early November through the first couple weeks of January I made a point of being extra careful of my diet, of getting plenty of rest, of not over-exercising, of not over-eating, of avoiding touching surfaces where other people may touch. I also talk to my family more often by phone to check in on them.
“…And I’m not getting together with my family this year since my taxes are taking too much of my paycheck to spend on airline tickets.”
I’m a real “throw-back”…can’t seem to get anything “substantial” out of “digital hugs”
Mary is right! we should do away with Christmas, and while we are at it, lets nuke those whales!
First of all, what have the whales ever done for us? Has a whale ever saved you from anything bad? Have you ever come home after a hard day’s work to find that a whale has made you dinner? No, never.
We should nuke the whales because they are plotting against us in a handful of sinister ways. For starters, they eat sailors, and sometimes even real people, too. Remember that Jonah guy? They also eat boats. Not those really small, dingy boats either. For example, you know the Titanic? It didn’t sink because it hit an iceberg. Come on, icebergs between the UK and the US? What am I, retarded? The only logical explanation would be the whales eating it.
The whales are also drinking all our water. Oh sure, it’s just a minor drought right now, but one day you will go to the beach and there will be a sign saying “Sorry, no water.” It will happen.
Lastly, those damn sea-mammals are eating all of our fish. The fish were put in the sea by Jesus for humans to eat, not whales. Don’t believe me, ask Him. Jesus, I mean. Ask Jesus about it. It being the fish. They’re for humans. The fish, I mean, not the whales or Jesus. Seriously, just ask Him. Do it! Do it now! Before it’s too late!
And, while you’re at it, ask Jesus why the ocean is so salty. Ever taste the ocean? Salty! Ever taste whales piss? Me neither!
If whales are so great, how come they haven’t learned to breathe underwater like all the other fish in the sea, huh? They’ve had 40 million years to do it! This shows that whales are either “slow,” or pure evil.
Many people think whales are cute, but they are not. Whales are fat and ugly, taking up valuable ocean space with their fat, blubbery asses. Sure, whales can be all pretty when they jump out of the water, but can they build a giant underwater network of plasmatunnels, quasiholes, and quantum reactors? I think not.
The truth is this: the whales are drinking all of our water and eating all of our sailors. Are you just gonna stand there and take that from them?!
I think people would be calmer, happier and less stressed if they didn’t have to deal with whales.
P.S. I found the whale rant after Mary`s letter to the editor inspired me to google nuke the whales. Merry Christmas
“Nuke the whales?”
“Hey, you gotta nuke something.”
I believe Mary would have loved the Soviet Union. I believe they had banned Christmas and all kinds of other celebrations. Perhaps Mary could move to North Korea. I believe they have banned Christmas and the people are so poor that there is no way they do any kind of ostentatious celebration.
As far as global warming Mary should lead by example. If she blew her brains out she would no longer be contributing to global warming. Does that seem extreme? Dictating to 300 million people that they can’t celebrate Christmas seems just as extreme, and totalitarian, to me. No, it is even more extreme, in my opinion.
I have never been stressed at Christmas. I have enjoyed every single one in my life, whether I spent $20 or $2,000. Mary’s ideas are anathema to me. The fact that people would say, “that sounds great” is just amazing. Perhaps the word is appalling. Just because she, and others, can’t enjoy Christmas doesn’t mean we should ban it for all.
It is great that idealists such as Mary believe the ideal is a gray and muddy world that is filled with sameness. That is equality to them. Overdone consumerism has nothing to do with Christmas. It has to do with shallow people. If you are not a shallow person you have nothing to worry about. If you are a shallow person then over indulging at Christmas time is really the least of your worries. Mary wants to cut off our leg because we have a sprained ankle.
I love Christmas lights. You can’t imagine how good it felt as a kid in Minnesota to see those lights sparkling in the snow when the temperature was 18 below zero. We always thought, “the more the better”. We would ride through neighborhoods just to see the houses that were full of lights. What a wonder it seemed to a 6 year old kid. It was even more special since we had so little. All I have to say is, “up yours, Mary.”
I like Christmas, just not today. It’s 26 degrees
out and I have to put up the lighting on the house.
That is why you do the lighting in November and let it sit unlit for a few weeks. There’s nothing worth than stringing lights while your hands are freezing and we all know you can’t wear gloves during the process.
“Overdone consumerism has nothing to do with Christmas.”
You are living in a fantasy world. Christmas is all about the celebration of overdone consumerism (that’s what it’s been twisted to in this country). That is why I hate this holiday; and, although I don’t agree it should be banned, I do understand why people feel that way.
And, for those of you who believe you can just “opt out” of the holiday, I have news for you. Your friends and family laugh at you behind your back. There’s no escape from the buying orgy that is the Christmas season, it’s just so sad that this is what the holiday has become. I love the lights, the wonder, and the fun of Christmas. All that has been stripped away for me in the past 10 years by the non-stop hysteria that surrounds this time of year. I think the kicker for me was when there was a trampling at a Wal-Mart a few years ago. This is what the holiday has become?
The only good news about Christmas is that New Year’s isn’t far behind! Now, that’s a real holiday, no consumerist bent, just a directive to go out with family/friends and have a good time. No pressure. My kind of holiday! My 2 favs are definitely New Years and Thanksgiving; I love both of those holidays. And the 4th of July, that’s also a great holiday. Birthdays/Christmas and VDay are definitely the worst.
We don’t opt out of Christmas/Solstice celebration. We just make it low key. I don’t think anyone spends more than $20 person, and usually less. So my husband and I will spend about $80 total this year plus the ingredients for Christmas pizza. I think my son will spend the most because he and a small group of friends exchange gifts. But they all give things that the others want.
I agree that cutting back suddenly is difficult. We don’t have that problem since we have done holidays this way for many years.
“There’s no escape from the buying orgy that is the Christmas season”
I couldn’t disagree more. I buy what I want to buy and don’t give a rat’s ass what anybody else thinks about it. It is called being secure in yourself. This nonsense that you have to give in is complete hogwash. It is so fatalistic. We all lead by example. It’s up to us to determine the example.
Don’t forget to TIP the dj this year , we make your party special, when we play you and your wife’s favorite song.
Since generosity is the general theme of the Christmas season, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
These people who want to do away with Christmas must have had really depressing childhoods. It’s not just the lights that lift spirits when the nights are longest - it’s the food, the company, the parties, and yes for some of us, the religious observance.
If nothing else atheists, non-believers, what have you should at least celebrate that they get time off work.
Lighten up people, have a little fun for chrissake.
(Or in this case christ’s birthday’s sake.)
If a DJ wants my tip, all they have to do is not deafen me. I get in trouble if I yell in my wife’s ear. I also get in trouble when she can’t hear me. When I’m in trouble, the tippee is in trouble.
Right on, NYC.
Put my lights up yesterday…Shorts with a light sweatshirt
The part of Xmas I like are the lights and get-togethers. But as a single guy, I at most put up a pagan tree and decorate it. I don’t put lights on my balconey - too much glitz for a male heterosexual!
too much glitz for a male heterosexual!
And yet where I grew up a house with no Christmas lights meant the man of the house was shirking one of the important obligations to his family.
Drive through South Philly tonite, you may be under the impression that the city subsidized the light displays.
No it’s just the men of the hood fulfilling their duty of the season. (And nobody ever accused Rocky Balboa of drinking chai/blueberry smoothies on the sly.)
haha
only raw eggs outta the glass - for breakfast…
YO ADRIENNE
Lay off the smoothies.
No seriously, there’s nothing wrong with a few lights. (I prefer the single-candle-in-the-window look.) But does it have to turn into yet another contest? Does the world truly need those ghastly blow-up things in front yard?
Well now that you mention it, they do have Christmas decoration contests in the burbs, and it does encourage participants to extend far past the boundaries of good taste, as some would say. Driving around yesterday, I saw quite a few lawns littered with the remains of deflated santas and elves, north poles, etc. etc.
I think it’s hard to keep them blowed up.
(Eggnog smoothie today?)
Interesting perspective about the significance of Dec. 25 I found on a religious tolerance website:
“In pre-historic times, winter was a very difficult time for Aboriginal people in the northern latitudes. The growing season had ended and the tribe had to live off of stored food and whatever animals they could catch. The people would be troubled as the life-giving sun sank lower in the sky each noon. They feared that it would eventually disappear and leave them in permanent darkness and extreme cold. After the winter solstice, they would have reason to celebrate as they saw the sun rising and strengthening once more. Although many months of cold weather remained before spring, they took heart that the return of the warm season was inevitable. The concept of birth and or death/rebirth became associated with the winter solstice. The Aboriginal people had no elaborate instruments to detect the solstice. But they were able to notice a slight elevation of the sun’s path within a few days after the solstice — perhaps by DEC-25. Celebrations were often timed for about the 25th.”
Most biblical scholars believe Jesus’ birth probably took place in the spring.
Dear Mary - your letter is based on the junk science of global warming. Once you take that away, your letter is mostly nonsense.
Mary, don’t you think it’s ironic that you have written a letter to the newspaper, considering the newspaper industry kills more trees in one print run than Christmas does?
Oh yes, all those tree farmers and tree shippers and retail clerks and so on that you want to put out of work are now on welfare, so your taxes are going up.
Love, Dave
Hey, Dave, where in “the North” are you? I just posted about a report I saw last night on NBC Nightly News about how the job market is hot in places like North and South Dakota, New Hampshire, Montana, etc. Wondering if you are located in any of those areas and have any insight.
New Brunswick - not so hot.
At one time this area was touted as an energy hub - lots of jobs, house prices going crazy etc. Now the LNG plant is finished, the second oil refinery project has been cancelled, NB Power is being sold to Quebec Hydro, and the Pt Lepreau nuclear plant refit costs are skyrocketing and who knows when it will be finished. Talk of second nuke plant has died away.
I suspect the only energy related jobs right now are government, because they never seem to stop hiring, and consultants running around talking about the boom times to come.
Forestry industry is still in big trouble and restructuring.
The company I work for is doing no hiring that I know of, and just announced another incentive program for union people to leave (capped at a certain number).
So, not so great in Canada, I guess. Always wanted to go to PEI.
Are you a Philly fan Dave ??
No, not a Philly fan. I don’t follow sports a lot, but I’m a fan of the Montreal Canadiens, & New York Mets…
Wmbz:
Where do you get these kooks from, doesn’t she understand house prices would drop another 20% if we acted like it was a religious holiday.
So many people would be put out of work and no money to buy houses.
We must silence her….
“Where do you get these kooks from”
LOL, They’re everywhere, they’re everywhere, you know that.
Unfortunately some of the kookiest occupy high offices, and send out edicts to the masses.
And who elected those kooks (and crooks) in high places? Those same dumb, manipulated herd creatures, the masses.
Religion adopted the Winter Solstice tradition. It was never a Christ based themed holiday, until the religion business tied it in. (Not bibled based.)Then general capitalism came aboard. A History Channel documentary is my source.
Agreed. I’m an atheist. And although I’m a staunch capitalist, I don’t care much for the commercialism of the solstice days. It would be nice to be kind to each other all year around and have warm get-togethers with family and friends all year round.
Funny how you see phrases such as “time to be kind to strangers and smile.” Does that mean all other times of the year we have to be rude pigs?
Bill,
Do you ever miss a chance to tell us you’re an atheist?
Come on Sam, he could have had a conversion in between posts, and then re-un-converted.
Or something like that.
Bill I tell everyone on a multiple choice test there is always E none of the above….so that is what i choose.
Agreed. I’m an atheist
More power to ya Bill, but I believe in god and when pressed I always give the same answer.
I would rather believe in god, die and find out I was wrong than not believe in god, die and find out I was wrong. Anyway, I am going to turn my Xmas lights on.
The cult that became Christianity adopted several existing holidays in order not to stand out too much. Winter solstice = birth of Jesus (despite shepherds only watching their flocks at night during the Spring birthing season). Passover = Easter.
All religions start out as cults. Most fail, some spectacularly. But others survive and even thrive. Who knows, in another century many of our descendants may be Scientologists.
As I posted below, I don’t think it was a desire not to ’stand out’ that made the early christers place their holy days on top of pagan celebrations, it was a conscious attempt to acquire new converts by making the new religion fit into the traditional ways, ie instead of saying you can’t have a spring/harvest/solstice celebration that you’ve been having forever, you can still have it but now it’s really a celebration of jesus’ birth/resurrection/whatever. It was a pretty good strategy, until we modern consumers came along.
Isn’t the gift-giving a part of the pagan tradition though? Kind of ironic, eh? The early christian’s ‘clever’ decision to make jesus’ b-day the same time as traditional pagan solstice celebrations has resulted in the pagan traditions overwhelming the christian overlay. God loves irony.
I always have said that if you are a true environmentalist, your only option is to kill yourself asap. Seriously, if you are living you are just contributing to the problem of depleting the earth’s resources, creating waste, garbage, etc. Humans are bar none the worst thing that ever happened to this planet, but to elevate ones self above others as to his/her environmental holiness is just plain silly. Humanity is doomed historically as documented int the film “Idiocracy”, which could be deemed the Newest Testament. “Its got electrolytes!”
For radical environmentalists suicide would have to be seen as the purest gift. That is why life is all about balance. I know that my mere existence will pollute the planet. Okay. I will try to be a decent guy and minimize my impact while still enjoying my life. I don’t burn tires for kicks.
Agreed. I am still here, just trying to do the best that I can. I only burn a tire when I drink.
Seems like a true environmentalist would be more a mass-murderer than a suicide. Take out as many ‘polluters’ as you can (in a green way, no nukes or chemicals) before you go. For the Love of Mother Earth.
Yes. A Dr Evil type of environmental enforcer.
While I like Christmas, I can’t afford Christmas.
And if you read poor Mary’s letter in the Post Standard you’ll see she got totally raked over the coals by almost every commenter. Some even suggested one should rid the world of Mary Armstrong before they’d rid themselves of the trappings of Christmas.
I don’t want to do away with celebrations in life ,I just think that people could tone it down a lot . I’m alone this year for the first time in …
well a long time …and I plan to just send money . It will be refreshing to get away from all that gift wrapping I got conned into helping with .
Kids enjoy Christmas a lot .
Merry Christmas to you, Housing Wizard. I hope you find peace and joy in the Holiday season in whatever way is meaningful to you.
And you are right about the kids — I could personally do without the hoopla over gifting, but the kids sure do find lots of joy and excitement in receiving presents.
kids sure do find lots of joy and excitement in receiving presents ??
Not just the presents…Long after the presents are in the landfill the memories of family and friends remain…I guess thats kind of the sad part of the children who do not get that experience…
That’s why I contribute presents to “Adopt a Family” every holiday season. I like the thought that we might be helping to bring joy into the lives of kids whose parents have fallen on hard times.
You’re rewarding failure, just like you berate the gov for.
+
Thanks PB for the good cheers . I donate toys for kids to . I think that kids are kinda innocent and they are the ones that
enjoy Christmas the most . It’s also a opportunity to get together with family or friends during Christmas time or whatever holiday you celebrate . I have always enjoyed the food
part of Christmas the most , you know ,eating great stuff when its cold outside .
How does having compassion on innocent kids whose parents don’t have enough money to buy them presents equate to ‘rewarding failure’ by executing bailouts by design that let Megabank, Inc cash in on financial catastrophes of their own making? Sorry, but I am missing the point…
I was being sarcastic but I forgot my winky face.
Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-12-06 06:41:30
I don’t want to do away with celebrations in life ,I just think that people could tone it down a lot . I’m alone this year for the first time in …
well a long time …and I plan to just send money . It will be refreshing to get away from all that gift wrapping I got conned into helping with .
Kids enjoy Christmas a lot .
Not sure where you live, Wiz, but if you’re in the So Cal area, you’re welcome to spend Chrismas with us. Not sure if you were “alone” without your wife, or if you literally don’t have any other family nearby. Nothing fancy here, but we cook good food!
Ca Renter …I didn’t see your post until Monday morning . You are
so nice ,restores my faith in the human race . I got a dozen invitations ,but I think I’m having a problem with this year celebrating
holidays without her ,so I’m afraid I might get to emotional . I think next year I might be on more stable ground (I get better every
month ).I have been advised that the holidays are a killer the first year after a loss .I have the option of going to a bunch of invitations,
so it’s more my choice to lay low . But ,you are wonderful for being concerned about me .I’m going to make it .
Wish I could give you a big hug, Wiz. It breaks my heart to know what you’re going through. Just know that there’s usually a pretty large group of us here at the HBB during the holidays. Just stick to the blog and it might help you through it. Both of my parents passed away within a few weeks of each other back in 2007. This blog helped me get through that because it distracted me (in a good way).
Lots of hugs to you, Wiz!
We’re staring to see some dark clouds approaching on the horizon, that could possibly be a worse situation than what the world has been experiencing. Fiscal problems in governments, from the local level up to entire countries seem to be getting worse. The country of Dubai is an extreme example. Dubai produces almost nothing. Dubai’s economy is like Las Vegas on a national scale. Without foreign investment and construction the place collapses. It’s like a ponzi scheme on a national scale. Then there’s countries like Greece, whose debt service is expected to rise above GDP in the next couple years. In the U.S. we have many states running deficit budget and raising taxes to try and fill the shortfalls, further depressing economic activity. Could there be a default contagion developing? If we start seeing these problems coming to a head in the next couple years, as the next wave of mortgage resets develops, housing prices may come under even more pressure then we anticipated.
“The country of Dubai is an extreme example. Dubai produces almost nothing. Dubai’s economy is like Las Vegas on a national scale. Without foreign investment and construction the place collapses. It’s like a ponzi scheme on a national scale. ”
The fact that most people are, today, JUST waking up the fact that there might be a “teensy-tiny problem in Dubai” is staggering to me. I saw the 60 Mins special on Dubai about 2 years ago, and, after the show the only thing that I said was “This is a disaster in the making”. Of course it’s a ponzi scheme economy, there’s nothing that gives that nation the kind of money necessary to build like they have. And, who in their right mind buys a vacation condo in Dubai? I mean, seriously, I laughed about people buying vacation condos in downtown Miami; who’d dumb enough to buy one in a god-forsaken dust bowl at 3,000/sq/ft? That take’s a special kind of dumb, and, sorry Dubai, but we here in FL have actively recruited that stupidity for 100 years; you ain’t getting our “More money than brains retirees”.
I like, and enjoy exotic travel to remote locations across the world. Some of the places I would like to visit are places like Russia, Egypt, Japan, China, Australia… Dubai isn’t even on the list of top 100 places I’d like to visit. I’m not sure it would make top 1000. There are some places in the middle east I’d like to go, but to see a “Vegas - SQUARED” (but without the hookers, booze, and gambling)? No thanks, I really have no interest in seeing it at all. Also, knowing it was all built on the backs of what are, essentially 21st century slaves? Nahh, I’m good….
Michael
Just think of all the good Dubai has done…It demolished the RE agents mantra “They ain’t building any more land!”
They have done some engineering marvels, now we as Americans are just DUMB, imagine if we could put that brain power to build a new 2nd ave subway system in NYC in 2 years instead of 15…
Or make high speed rail a reality..we have so many thousands of miles of abandoned tracks and right of ways…may not be the most direct route but at 200+ mph it wouldn’t matter much.
Or better yet, forget about mass transit and encourage people to live closer to work.
It always amazes and disgusts me to see all the elevated highways and other horrendously expensive “infrastructure” designed to allow commuters to bypass the Bronx to get between Manhattan and Westchester County. Maybe people would actually make the South Bronx into a livable area if the government didn’t forcibly distort the topography this way.
Ahh LVG the south bronx was a major ghetto so they had no choice to build a highway above it.
What I am surprised at was Trump not buying up Harlem when it was dirt cheap. talk about an easy commute great old houses and lots of dilapidated buildings to knock down and put up high priced condozes.
South Bronx into a livable area
It’s hard to live close to work when you don’t where your next job is.
Dubai is contained.
Uh-oh. They invoked “the curse.” They shouldn’t have said the “c” word, because that always leads to bad things…
Recession pushes shoppers to thrift stores. ~ The State
Ruby Durney will buy all of her Christmas presents this year at thrift shops for the first time to cut her holiday spending by more than $500.
Durney, 53, has been out of work for nearly two years and her unemployment checks have run out. But she still wants to have presents for her 10 grandchildren and two great-grandchildren.
“If you take time, you find some good bargains,” she said, as she loaded up on stuffed animals priced between 50 cents and $3 from a bin at the new Goodwill store in Lexington.
More people are scrambling for deals from thrift stores, consignment shops and pawn shops as the nation tries to recover from a brutal two-year recession that has left South Carolina with the fifth-highest unemployment rate in the nation.
Some Midlands-area pawn and consignment shops reported record-breaking sales on Black Friday, when shoppers traditionally fight crowds for deals at retail stores.
Nearly 80 percent of thrift-store owners responding to a recent survey said they have seen sales increase this year by an average of 35 percent, according to the National Association of Resale & Thrift Shops.
Traditional retail sales have been relatively flat this year and are expected to drop 1 percent this holiday season, according to the National Retail Federation.
As the stigma sometimes associated with thrift-store shopping eases, more people are seeing the benefits, said Denver-based Amy Hardin Turosak, who writes The Thrifty Chicks blog.
“I think people are really rethinking it,” said Turosak, who recently snagged a brand-new $99.99 Banana Republic jacket with the tags still on it for $4.99 from Goodwill. “It just opens up new possibilities.”
Ah man.. This article is so heartbreaking that I can’t really lay into it. But, come on, you’re out of work for 2 years and just lost unemployment benefits? Maybe you should look at taking this holiday off, I think this kids will understand (and if not, their parents will). I mean, come on, this person is very likely taking food out of their mouth to buy presents for 10 kids? Please people, think about yourselves first, do you really think that gifts are worth this much to the people who are getting them.
This story is just sad, and shows much of what’s wrong with the holidays (and the American public) in my mind.
If I was out of work and out of unemployment checks I would not spend one thin dime on Christmas presents, period. Of course I spend zero on Christmas anyway. I stopped buying presents about 15 years ago.
Bah, humbug.
“…I stopped buying presents about 15 years ago”
Geez, I’m not the least surprised, with all the time you spend dispensing your accumulated wisdom & world view, how would you ever find time to even wrap a gift for little timmy?
Here let me GIVE you something that cost nothing: Good Cheer & Happy Holidays wmbz! Hwy50
My office partner and his wife never do the commercial side of Christmas and never give gifts. It’s something with their sect of Christianity.
Can’t Obama just make it so Monopoly money is accepted at the malls? Then people would not have to reduce themselves to thrift-shopping only for items they can actually afford. Fast-track the monopoly bill! Lets beat this little hiccup!
First thing I would do with my Monopoly money is buy up all the Monopoly game sets
Durney, 53 presents for her 10 grandchildren and two great-grandchildren ??
Wow…53 with great grandchildren…Those evangelicals can really procreate eh…
I probably know her..LOL, when i left SC just before Hugo hit, i met a few women who were under 30 who were grandmothers…no kidding…so great grandmother at 53
———————————————–
Wow…53 with great grandchildren
I went to a thrift store on a weekday in early November and the place was packed, with something like 50 people waiting in the checkout lanes. wtf? I thought. It turns out it was half-price day.
It seems to me that if the economy is really bad, people would not have much stuff to donate to thrift stores. After all, why give away clothing if you will just have to buy more? I can see donating children’s clothing and toys, but not much else. Maybe people are having to reduce possessions as they downgrade from unaffordable houses.
Nevertheless, the parking lots at the thrift stores around are crowded most of the time.
There’s been a new Goodwill store opened near me. It’s fantastic.
I’ve bought a boat load of shirts from there for a few buck : Jos A Banks, Brooks Brothers, Neeman, Italian poofta labels etc, that still have their dry cleaning tags on them. The dry cleaners donate their ‘no pick ups’ to GW after a long grace period.
However, since they are in such good state, I then took them on to a Men’s resale. My new venture: Shirt Flipping ! We’ll see how this works out.
I used to skeev Goodwill, but then I started dating an unrepentant Goodwiller.
Little by little, he coaxed me into embracing the Goodwill experience. I discovered that they have NWT clothes on the racks. So far I haven’t bought anything, I have more than I need. But you never know some day I may score big, get myself an Italian poofta dress never worn - for three bucks.
They just opened a Goodwill in my area.
Nothing but crap. I’m sure they have some occasionally good deals, but I really don’t have time to make bargain hunting a full time job.
Our local Catholic St. Vincent’s has some great items. We’ve gotten mixing bowls, books, and I just got two purses that looked brand-new there. I have them up in my closet ready to go when my current one gives up the ghost. My daughter told me they’re both about 5 years out of style. Oh well. The blue jeans wearin’ fashionistas in my cube world will just have to get the vapors should I bring one in to work.
Land prices in Vegas down to 225K an acre.
http://www.lvrj.com/business/vacant-land-prices-tumble-78400262.html
Considering that land in Vegas is actually worth about 2K an acre, I think we probably have a long way to go. Who in their right mind, upon flying into Vegas and seeing the endless sea of NOTHING that surrounds it, could come to the conclusion that land in Vegas is worth 1/4 of a million dollars for a raw acre?
$2K an acre? Give me a break. Good farm land is worth less than that.
Did anyone see NBC Nightly News last night? Interesting report on North Dakota, which apparently has PLENTY of jobs and is looking for people to come and work. Then I saw some report on 10 states with low unemployment rates. North Dakota is number one, and some other states were South Dakota, Montana, Virginia (no surprise there, lots of folks on the gubmin tittie), New Hampshire, etc. But North Dakota is begging for workers in many fields. Sheesh. If these old bones of mine could stand the chill, I’d be there in a heartbeat. Maybe this spring….
Nothing in the Sunbelt, though. Gee, wha hoppen? Doesn’t surprise me. I reluctantly went to Wally World (I never go unless absolutely necessary) to get some boxes and such on Friday and it was quite an experience. I felt like I’d entered a market in some third world country. I’m shocked, I tell you, shocked!
NH i could probably deal with I live in Manchester for a while. That was cold enough for me. But Fargo….maybe at $25 hr i could endure the pain and save like crazy.
North Dakota is going to lead us out of this recession. Fargo is the next NYC. Lets move the Statue of Libety there.
Isn’t ND a center for credit card companies because of “favorable” laws?
Thats what I’m sayin’. The place has all the makings for a New Financial Center. If they can make it happen in Dubai…? Example: Electric bill on indoor ski complex would be much lower in ND.
North Dakota = Energy I think…And there you have it…Lets not forget the massive transfer of wealth to the energy sector that occurred during that brief period with oil peaking at $145…I believe that is why Texas has also done relatively well particularly given its one of the most populated states…
In the early 30’s, the government announced that it would need people to help build Hoover Dam. When the government was ready to hire, they found that thousands of families already there, living in tents and hoping for a Hoover Dam job.
I wonder if families will do the same now, or at least send the primary breadwinner. Or will they stay home, living on unemployment?
Oops, I left out some words. Thousands of families had already moved to Las Vegas, even before the government began to hire. That’s how desperate things were.
Or will they stay home, living on unemployment ??
Or social services…
“…North Dakota, which apparently has PLENTY of jobs and is looking for people to come and work.”
Makes perfectly good sense. One would expect lots of job openings and low housing prices relative to incomes in places where nobody wants to live…
North Dakota, lived there for a year, wonderful people, good unhealthy food (hot smashed potatoes w/ butter, corn bread, green beans… o.k., o.k., remember I’m from Kansas for goodness sake!)
But looking at those flat,flat,flat “taters fields for miles & miles made my eyes hurt, and when the snow comes, and boy HOW it comes flying in…the “variety” of white is mind stunning!
(Hwy wonders where ND painters learn how to paint “Landscapes”?)
(Hwy thinks there is some kind of anti-tree movement based in ND, bet they shun Arbor Day…)
I grew up in ND and went to NDSU. If you are not from there it would be tough to adapt. The locals love outsiders, but many counties have less then 3,000 people (which does not even support a Burgar King. I still have 2 brothers working (with difficulty) there. If 1,000 people moved to the state all the vacant jobs would be filled. Most of the energy jobs are in the western part of the state nowhere from nowhere (arid, bad-lands and semi-badlands, treeless, declining population, little air service). No lakes, but decent hunting. NoDak is moderate red state (except very anti-abortion) 1 dem senator, one blue-dog dem senator, and a sole dem rep, and a GOP gov. (The senators and rep are Democrates because the GOP keeps runing total nut jobs). During the 1920s and 30s there was even a socialist movement in the state, from its Scandanavian and Germany heritage. The only thing left of that era is the Bank of No Dak and the State Flour Mill,still making a small profit. The population is like 650,000 with twice the percentage of old folks as the rest of the USA. My cousins on farms are dying out.
Wow.
Roidy
Among the many reasons I never shop at Walmart:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/80809521/
Watched Suzy Orman last night and she blasted the banks for their money grubbing credit card policies. She ended her rant by exhorting her viewers to stop using their credit cards altogether and use only cash.
The new battle cry?
Careful there Suzy. The MSM’s corporate owners and controllers will have you out on your ear if the rubes heed your call.
I pay to see Suzy in a kick-boxing match with Krudlow!
I’d like to see her trying to suck blood out of her neck. She’s too much ” helping the little people ” Lady Bountiful for me.
While I have had to work hard to rebuild my credit, I still use cash as often as possible for purchases of less than $40. Must faster at checkout and makes the purchase more “real” as in I watch my money closer.
I mean, how hard is it to carry 2 twenties around fer cryin’ out loud? I hate those buttheads who pull out plastic to buy a candy bar or a 6 pack. Hey, you ain’t gettin’ THAT many air miles!
Even before the dust has settled on the Dubai debt meltdown, greedy bankers are looking forward to capturing new profit opportunities. Greed is good again!!!
Wouldn’t it be financially prudent to wait for the dust to settle from this collapse before jumping into the vortex of financial meltdown?
Dubai debt woes to boost neighbours’ Islamic bank biz
Wed Dec 2, 2009 3:41pm IST
By Liau Y-Sing
KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - As investors flee debt-laden Dubai, neighbouring Bahrain, Qatar and Saudi Arabia are likely to pick up much of its Islamic banking business, though the financial hub is expected to bounce back eventually.
While banks and builders from London to Singapore count their losses from Dubai’s troubles, there are also worries the crisis will hurt its status as a regional centre for sharia finance, which itself had a hand in the emirate’s meteoric rise.
…
Here are the two homes my wife and I got fired up to make lowball offers on (we’re not, just thought I’d share)
MLS: 7439486
MLS: 7428664
If you burn ‘em down first you might get a better deal.
Looked at the first one. Very nice. Near the beach! This is a pretty classy debt prison.
Bill & Penny bought this baby in 2005 for $390K. It was $240K in 2002. Looks like there is a lot of pain in that whole bubble hood.
“NOTE: Ground floor uninsurable.”
Priceless.
“NOTE: Ground floor uninsurable.”
Sweet!
Nothin’ like a little added disincentive to sweeten the pot / increase the adrenalin rush.
My comments are not appearing
Now they are.
I responded to this earlier. That’s very common for this area — stilted homes in EVAC A all have uninsurable first floors. All of my wife’s families’ houses on St. Pete Beach are like this.
The are basically just enclosed carports, or small “off the record” rooms with old TVs and furniture.
Flooding here is viewed very differently than in many other places. People in Shores Acres (St. Pete) get mad at their neighbors during rainy season is they drive to fast because the wake causes flooding.
I’ll also add that there are ‘hoods in SPB that having regular flooding due to tides and that the streets are designed to allow the water back into the bay quickly.
http://tinyurl.com/yk2cz67
The are basically just enclosed carports, or small “off the record” rooms with old TVs and furniture.
Gotcha. That makes more sense.
Does that mean that as of this date you can get still get insurance for the upstairs?
At what point in U.S. history was the Coinage Act of 1792 repealed?
Section 19 of this country’s founding monetary legislation, the Coinage Act of 1792, prescribed the death penalty for any official who fraudulently debased the people’s money. Was the massive printing of dollar bills to lift Wall Street (and the rest of us, too) off the rocks last year a kind of fraud? If the U.S. Senate so determines, it may send Mr. Bernanke back home to Princeton. But not even Ron Paul, the Texas Republican sponsor of a bill to subject the Fed to periodic congressional audits, is calling for the Federal Reserve chairman’s head.
…
At what point in U.S. history was the Coinage Act of 1792 repealed?
I could envision spending a few hours in a dusty law library trying to figure this out. I might even be persuaded to undertake such a task in return for some more details about those weirdball currency charts you keep posting.
At what point in U.S. history was the Coinage Act of 1792 repealed?
Come to think of it, it might not be that hard a question. Could be we just need to get polly to fire up her Lexis terminal and check Shepard’s.
Looks like it was repealed in 1837 per a cursory google search.
The bankers are coming! The bankers are coming!
Nov. 23, 2009, 5:39 p.m. EST
Dimon potential successor to Geithner: report
By Alistair Barr, MarketWatch
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — Several U.S. policy makers consider J.P. Morgan Chase Chief Executive Jamie Dimon as a potential successor to U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, the New York Post reported Monday.
The report comes after Geithner rejected calls to resign during testimony last week before the Joint Economic Committee, one of the rare congressional panels with both House and Senate members.
…
And Jamie Dimon would be an improvement how?
With apologies to The Who, “Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss.”
They might as well appoint Dimon. Somehow they managed to appoint Lloyd Blankfein as the Holy Spirit.
“And Jamie Dimon would be an improvement how?”
Perhaps it would increase the credibility of the banking sector, by coming closer to openly acknowledging that they have taken over the U.S. government.
The bankers are running! The bankers are running! The bankers are running!
Hey, not bad for startin’ off being born in a mud hut
BWAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! (fpss™)
Venezuela Widens Purge Of Bankers With New Arrest:
Reuters Dec 6th 2009
CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela on Sunday widened a police sweep against executives from seven troubled banks shut down despite their links with top government officials — a move likely to win support for leftist President Hugo Chavez.
Police arrested the director of the Banco Real, Giuzel Mileira, bringing to six the number of bankers in custody.
The detainees include the brother of a senior minister close to Chavez and a businessman who made more than a billion dollars partly by selling corn to government-subsidized supermarkets.
“These bankers should be shown for what they really are to the public: vulgar robbers, thieves in ties, pickpockets and obstinate kleptomaniacs,” Chavez said in a newspaper column published on Sunday.
“‘These bankers should be shown for what they really are to the public: vulgar robbers, thieves in ties, pickpockets and obstinate kleptomaniacs,’ Chavez said in a newpaper column published on Sunday.”
I nominate Hugo Chavez to be HBBer of the week.
“‘These bankers should be shown for what they really are to the public: vulgar robbers, thieves in ties, pickpockets and obstinate kleptomaniacs,’ Chavez said in a newpaper column published on Sunday.”
-In America we call that “talent”.
I’d pay big dollars to see that here.
Never gonna happen.
Eliot Spitzer: Geithner, Bernanke “Complicit” in Financial Crisis and
In an extended interview, we speak with former New York governor Eliot Spitzer about the financial crisis and how it was handled by Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner. Bernanke and Geithner “actually built and participated in creating the structure that now has collapsed,” Spitzer says and calls on them to be replaced. Spitzer also talks about the scandal that erupted last year that forced him to resign as governor. “I have no doubt that there were many people who were opposed to me, very powerful forces, who were happy to see me go,” Spitzer says. “Whether they participated, I’ll let others figure that out. I resigned because of what I did.”
Got to say that I like Eliot Spitzer ,I think he has a great mind . No wonder Wall Street didn’t like him .
Yep. He did a lot of good things for Americans (hate to use the word “consumers”).
I like Spitzer’s doctor analogy. He explains how the Geithner-Bernanke Fed was like a doctor whose treatments made the patient deathly ill. When the patient was deathly ill, the doctor applied a tourniquet, then took credit for a cure when the patient did not die. So it goes with the Bernanke-Geithner Fed/PPT effort to take claim for using bailouts to save the global economy, just after the cumulative effect of their policies brought it to the brink of collapse.
Hey Mr. Ben Jones, batten down the hatches. Big blizzard on the way to Flagstaff and expected to hit at 8:00am Monday and continue to Tuesday. 12 to 24 inches of snow above 6,000 feet.
Bill check this out Flagstaff gets more snow snow then Buffalo
http://www.met.utah.edu/jhorel/html/wx/climate/normsnow.html
Wow! Just barely. And Mt. Shasta just barely gets more snow than Flagstaff!
NYTimes still doesn’t get it. Reading today’s paper on my Kindle while on a year-end Mileage run and came across this sentence:
But doing nothing also has hazards, the most obvious being continuing foreclosures, which nobody wants, and further declines in real estate prices that will hurt homeowners as well as investors.
(From an article titled “Treasury Needs a Plan B for Mortgages”)
“Nobody” wants? I guess I’m a nobody!
I welcome foreclosures and further declines in real estate prices! It will lower my property tax, and will make the housing market fairer. Am I really a minority of 1? I don’t think so. I’m sure that many people who have avoided the housing market because of the propped-up prices would also agree. (I’m a true homeowner, 100% paid up, but I like markets to be un-manipulated and fair)
Amen, Reuven!
Published December 06, 2009 05:37 pm -
Dubai debt scare
The Dubai debt crisis should be another warning to the financial world about excessive debt and more proof that no company or country is too big to fail.
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