December 11, 2009

The Problem With Duct Tape And Baling Wire

It’s Friday desk clearing time for this blogger. “U.S. homeowners have lost about $5.9 trillion in value since the housing market’s peak in March 2006, according to Zillow. LaVonna Gottschall paid $260,000 for her Merced, California, home in September 2007. She put down more than half the price and financed the rest with a 30-year fixed loan. Today, houses in her neighborhood are worth 59 percent less. ‘I almost wiped out all my savings,’ Gottschall, 64, a retired insurance-company clerical worker, said in an interview. ‘I did the right thing. I didn’t get in over my head. Now I’m living month-to-month.’”

“Under President Barack Obama’s program to reduce foreclosures, fewer than 35,000 troubled South Floridians have had their mortgages modified, less than 5 percent of those who qualify for help. Homeowners have to make timely payments and show that they still qualify for the loan after a three-month trial period ends. Banks say few homeowners make it over both hurdles.”

“Homeowners say the real problem is that lenders are disorganized and difficult to work with. ‘I have submitted all the papers three times. I’ve been going through hell, with a promised modification and then the bank said no, really I don’t qualify,’ said Claudia LeCompte of Boynton Beach.”

“When Renee Penny of Columbia, Tenn., heard about the federal government’s ‘Making Home Affordable’ loan modification program last spring, she thought she had found welcome relief. But a few weeks ago, Bank of America mailed a response to the laid-off auto parts worker’s request for mortgage help: The bank told her it would reduce her mortgage by $6 a month, to about $1,176 per payment.”

“She fears the bank will foreclose on her property unless she can pay her newly modified loan. ‘I feel like they’re just waiting to snatch my house from me,’ said Penny.”

“Michael Heller of Salinas, Calif., said he and his wife have submitted all the required documents and have made six months of $1,800 payments to their lender — but have yet to receive an answer. ‘Every time we send them documents, they send us a form letter that says your modification is at risk, you screwed up, you didn’t send us the necessary documents,’ said Heller, whose landscaping business has taken a severe hit due to the recession.”

“He figures the house he bought for $640,000 in 2006 is now worth $250,000.”

“‘You never talk to he same person twice,’ Heller said. ‘It makes you a little bit kooky. This has been extremely stressful.’”

“Illinois had the third highest number of foreclosure filings in the nation in November. Only California and Florida had more. In the Chicago metro area, DeKalb and Kane counties saw the biggest percentage jumps. Foreclosure filings tripled in both of those places compared with a year ago. Steve Hovany is president of a housing research company based in Schaumburg. Hovany says the big driver is the drop in home prices. He says prices in the region have slipped 20 percent from a peak in late 2006. That’s left many people with homes worth less than they owe on them, prompting some to just walk away.”

“Hovany: ‘New developments are pockmarked with foreclosures simply because the people bought and for whatever reason, then they can’t sell it for anywhere near what the mortgage is, so foreclosure is a real option to them.’”

“‘I’m starting to picture President Barack Obama and his economic team as a group of shade-tree mechanics tinkering with an old jalopy. They never run out of quick-fix ideas, but they never quite get the thing running right, either.”

“Instead of a coherent policy to put the nation on a sustainable growth path, we’re getting the economic equivalent of duct tape and baling wire. Bribing people to buy cars and houses — as we’ve done with cash-for-clunkers and the first-time home-buyer tax credit — may have helped the auto and housing industries for a while, but it didn’t address their underlying problems.”

“The problem with duct tape and baling wire is that it doesn’t last very long. Auto sales fell sharply when cash-for-clunkers ended, and home sales will do the same after the first-time buyer credit expires. ‘It’s exactly what you would expect the political system to do, not looking long term but looking short term to the next election cycle,’ says R.W. Hafer, professor of economics at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville.”

“Modest recovery is on the horizon for the real estate market, the president of the California Association of Realtors said at a Visalia Convention Center luncheon. Liptak warned his peers that the flaws of deregulation brought to light in the housing-market crash will change the real estate business dramatically in the next few years. As for whether new regulation will help or harm, Liptak said it could go either way.”

“In the mean time, he said, the Realtors’ association must stay strong for when ‘the state comes knocking on our door asking for money.’ So far it’s done its job, Liptak said. ‘For the first time in history, the budget wanted to tinker with mortgage deductibility,’ he said. ‘We killed that fast, but [the fact] that they even included it tells me that they’ll bring it back again.’”

“He encouraged members to donate to the state association to maintain ‘one of the most powerful lobbies in Sacramento.’”

“Milwaukee-area home sales soared 75% in November compared with the same month last year, an increase attributed mostly to efforts to close purchases before a tax credit for first-time homebuyers was set to expire. The chief economist of the National Association of Realtors, Lawrence Yun, who was in Waukesha to address members of the Wisconsin Realtors Association, said he thinks the housing market is ‘turning for the better.’ Yun said he expects modest price increases for homes by the middle of next year.”

“Yun said federal tax credits that now will last through mid-2010 will lure potential buyers who have been holding off entering the market. That, and a rebounding economy, should help stabilize prices, he said. Yun said he believes the spring buying season will be strong nationwide as first-time buyers continue to take advantage of the tax credit of up to $8,000 and previous homeowners are drawn into the market by a new tax credit of as much as $6,500.”

“‘I think at that point we really will have stable prices and, in fact, some modest price increases,’ Yun said.”

“William Malkasian, president of the Wisconsin Realtors Association, said home sellers no longer are holding out for prices that became obsolete when the housing market began its slide more that three years ago. ‘The sellers, at least in this state, finally psychologically realized that their castle isn’t worth a half million dollars anymore,’ Malkasian said.”

“The December market appears to have some life, still driven by first-time buyers and conditions that, for people with job security, offer some attractive features, real estate professionals said. ‘You’ve got homes that are reasonably priced - the best prices we’ve seen in years and probably ever will see again’ said John Flor, who is the chairman of the Wisconsin Realtors Association.”

“If you walk down any given street in the U.S., odds are that one in every four homes you pass is worth less than what the owner owes on his or her mortgage. In Idaho it’s almost as bad, with one in five homes under water, according to a real estate information company. Median home prices in Ada County have been falling pretty steadily since mid-2006. This autumn they were down 37 percent since the peak in July 2006.”

“I talked to a real estate agent this week who thinks the market doesn’t have to be this way. If the community’s homebuyers would agree to stop approaching home sales with an eye to hack the price down to a fraction of its original size (I know another agent who calls this ‘raping’ the seller), values would stop falling. Nearby homes would be able to be listed at prices more in tune with what the owner owes and with what the house is worth, according to some.”

“And he said others have a role to play as well: sellers should try to keep homes off the market, appraisers should give a property credit for every dollar of its worth, banks should start prices higher, and brokers and agents should stop accepting low-ball offers.”

‘He talked about a home in Meridian that was purchased for $300,000 a few years ago, but is now listed at $190,000. He said he knows the listing agent would accept an offer as low as $170,000.”

“If we want to see an end to the real estate carnage and short-sale fever, that’s got to stop, he said.”

“Joe Lagana says living Downtown is ‘like a vacation every day.’ But satisfaction is not universal. Downtown resident and restaurateur John Valentine says he doesn’t ’see the Downtown’ he imagined six years ago, when he moved Downtown in the early stages of the urban living movement.”

“Natalie Schmid, 26, a financial adviser, moved into The Carlyle at Fourth and Wood streets from Charlotte, N.C., in October. She had been watching the changes in life Downtown for several years when she would visit with her parents in Mt. Lebanon. ‘Right now, it is not a neighborhood,’ she says. ‘But it is in the process.’”

“Investors who bought condo-hotel rooms at downtown San Diego’s Hard Rock Hotel and now claim to have lost millions have sued the developer and operator, saying federal and state laws were broken because the investment contracts were never properly registered. Investors ‘have suffered tens of millions of dollars in damages,’ the lawsuit states. ‘(Hard Rock Hotel San Diego) is paying plaintiffs only a fraction of what plaintiffs would need to break even on their … investment contracts.’”

“The lawsuit, which names San Diego County businessman Tamer Salameh as one of the plaintiffs, argues that investors were led to believe the hotel’s rental program was not mandatory and that they could manage the rental of their suites or studios themselves. Salameh bought 10 units for roughly $350,000 each in December 2007, said attorney Maria Severson. In a 2005 interview with The San Diego Union-Tribune, Tarsadia Hotels President Greg Casserly sought to explain the factors driving the mushrooming popularity of condo hotels at that time.”

“‘One reason why we like them is there’s a huge, burgeoning accumulation of wealth through baby boomers and Gen-Xers, who are lifestyle-driven,’ Casserly said. ‘They like second, third, fourth, fifth homes but don’t like the hassle of private ownership and having them sit empty while they’re not there. So the condo-hotel model allows them to have the lifestyle they want but not have the incredible carrying costs, because they can put their unit in the rental pool.’”

“‘These lawsuits are cropping up more and will continue to do so as condo- unit owners are asked to fund more and more losses of the hotels,’ said Chicago attorney Charles Neff, who at one time represented developers of condo hotels. ‘It’s a recipe for disaster because of how bad the hotel industry is now. The condo-hotel owners own nothing more than a hotel room, so they’re feeling the pain, and there’s no market for them to even sell their unit, and it would be at a fraction of what it cost them.’”

“China’s economy is the envy of the world. Take a close look, however, and you may come away thinking China resembles nothing so much as Japan shortly before its stock and property markets melted down two decades ago. A speculative frenzy of borrowing and bidding up is at work. If and when prices crash, there will be hell to pay.”

“‘It’s a Ponzi scheme whose head is the central bank, and it can print money,’ says Victor Shih, a China expert at Northwestern University.”

“Like the U.S. housing industry a few years ago, China’s big developers are highly leveraged and dependent on low interest rates and rising prices. Municipal governments are knee-deep in this asset swamp. They use land sales as a means of funding themselves. Shunyi County, in the capital’s suburbs, sold a residential plot last month for $400 per square foot, a new national record. The bidders were mostly state-owned companies and the winner none other than a developer owned by Shunyi County.”

“As is typical in the later stages of property booms, many investors in China appear to have discarded rental yields as a measure of how much a building is worth in favor of greater-fool pricing. In downtown Beijing office towers sold this year for $400 per square foot, despite the fact that many were unleased and many more are under construction. The leading buyers: state-owned enterprises, including banks and insurers.”

“‘It’s a pure debt game,’ says Andy Xie, an economist who advises private investors and sees the current bubble as ‘much worse than previous ones.’”

“Question: What do you call a couple who bought their Tampa Bay dream home in 2006? Answer: Renters.”

“An exaggeration, to be sure. But the housing crash has thinned the herd of Florida homesteaders. If you weren’t convinced that renting is the new owning, the Mercedeses and Cadillac Escalades parked in front of four-bedroom rental houses should prove it beyond a doubt. Square foot for square foot, it’s even cheaper to lease houses, if you don’t mind being bounced in the event the landlord loses the house to foreclosure.”

“So many real estate investors bought unwisely from 2004 to 2007 that thousands of houses clamor for tenants in places like central Pasco and southeastern Hillsborough counties.”

“Despite record-low interest rates of about 5 percent and billions of dollars in government subsidies for home buyers, Tampa Bay residents continue to abandon their houses with abandon. In November alone, lenders sued 4,200 Tampa Bay properties for foreclosure, according to RealtyTrac.”

“Not all of these foreclosure victims are down-and-outs. A small percentage are engaged in strategic foreclosures. These homeowners can afford their mortgages but figure it’s pointless to cling to a house worth $100,000 less than they paid for it. Better to walk away from a $1,800-per-month payment if you can rent the same house for $1,000. Or so they argue.”

“Stabilizing the housing market will require getting a handle on rentals. Don’t look for improvement soon. The recent rise in Tampa Bay home sales was born on the backs of investors scouting out foreclosure bargains. The only Christmas decorations most of these investors will place in their front lawns will be single signs: For Rent.”




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151 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-12-11 09:10:57

‘LaVonna Gottschall paid $260,000…in September 2007. She put down more than half the price and financed the rest with a 30-year fixed loan. Today, houses in her neighborhood are worth 59 percent less. ‘I almost wiped out all my savings,’ Gottschall, 64, a retired insurance-company clerical worker, said in an interview. ‘I did the right thing. I didn’t get in over my head. Now I’m living month-to-month.’

2007. Here you go, RE cheerleaders. The FB parade continues and you guys pushed it all along. No doubt, in the future we’ll see late 2009 “buyers” talking about “doing the right thing” and crying about being wiped out.

So we’ll just have to remember who was holding the pom-poms, won’t we?

Comment by combotechie
2009-12-11 09:22:55

“Today, houses in her neighborhood are worth 59 percent less. ‘I almost wiped out all my savings,’ Gottschall, 64, a retired insurance-company clerical worker, said in an interview…
Now I’m living month-to-month.”

Okay, I’m having a tough time relating as to how the decline in her house price causes her to live month-to-month. Isn’t living month-to-month determined by income? What does the price of her house have to do with her income?

Comment by Bad Andy
2009-12-11 10:07:12

She blew her entire savings on a down payment (as I did) and when times got tough (and they did) and income goes down it makes it impossible to get ahead.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-12-11 10:27:20

Still, if she didn’t get in over her head (her words) why is she living month-to-month?

Oh, I know! She can’t HELOC!

Which eventually would have put her in over her head.

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Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-12-11 10:38:08

HELOC is an assumed part of future income, don’t you know?

Here’s how it goes for income sources:

1) Job (maybe - not really important in New Amerika!)

2) HELOC since housing only goes up!

3) Credit cards, because debt = wealth.

4) Endless raises at work if you have a job since everyone knows that salary keeps increasing with every year at a high rate.

Yep, this plan is working out great!

 
Comment by polly
2009-12-11 13:23:52

Hey, pondering, I haven’t said it recently and it bears repeating - I enjoy your anger. Really, sometimes your posts just get the heart of things with a carving knife. Well said.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-11 11:44:44

It’s a very unfortunate story that must apply to untold numbers of U.S. households. So why is it again that our government wants to turn everyone into a home owner?

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Comment by pismoclam
2009-12-11 14:42:14

Nothing in Salinas/Watsonville is worth $620k. If it’s only worth $260k, I’d walk; no, I’d quit making payments. It’l take your lender at least 18 or more months to pull the plug or even start action. The banks are just stroking the FBBs and holding out false hope. The banks should be shot.

 
 
 
Comment by 20910
2009-12-11 10:47:39

Yeah, I don’t get this either.

I think it’s great she did the right thing and bought a house she could afford, but it doesn’t say why she can’t afford that same house now once her neighbors’ houses are worth less.

Bad Andy — why do you say her income went down? It says she is retired.

Comment by Biff Henderson
2009-12-11 11:07:19

She foolishly put down over $100K was probably earning her $5K a year in interest income at the time. Of course thanks to Uncle Ben anyone living on interest income has been screwed anyway.

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Comment by DebtinNation
2009-12-11 15:04:19

The sad thing is, if she really did have any skin in the game, she’s much worse off than all the FB’s who rolled the dice and lost nothing.

 
Comment by eudemon
2009-12-11 19:12:25

“The sad thing is, if she really did have any skin in the game, she’s much worse off than all the FB’s who rolled the dice and lost nothing.”

Precisely. What’s more, if I were looking to purchase an abode any time soon (which I’m not), I’d sure as heck NOT put 20% down toward the purchase price. Nor would I ever pay for the property in cash.

That used to work in the old days. It won’t work anymore.

Wait ’til Medicare bankrupts the country - what do you think will happen to housing THEN?

Home ownership is increasingly becoming a noose around the neck - no matter your asset/debt class.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by combotechie
2009-12-11 09:12:02

“U.S. homeowners have lost about $5.9 trillion in value since the housing market’s peak in March 2006.”

Okay, Packman, tell us where the $5.9 trillion went?

Comment by GH
2009-12-11 09:35:43

I have at least one friend who bought in 2001 at $400k and sold in 2005 at 900k. He took the money out of state paying cash for a nice home and went to law school. So while I am certain the buyer since foreclosed and we obviously bailed out the bank, I am pretty certain that a cool half million went to my friend, who bought and sold well.

We never hear much from the winners do we?

Comment by DinOR
2009-12-11 10:43:16

GH,

Reason being ( and I wish the best for friend ) but in all too many cases, they became their ‘own’ Greater Fools by putting $100k down on 5 different million dollar homes.

Comment by Spokaneman
2009-12-11 11:09:20

And lots of people, particularly those downsizing, put the gains in the equity market in ‘06 and ‘07. That gobbled up a big chunk when it turned down.

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Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-11 11:49:01

When you go to Vegas, the only number that matters is how much you came home with, not how much you were up by.

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Comment by DinOR
2009-12-11 12:33:54

Jim A,

True, and I’m starting to feel the same way about retirement? ( I mean how ‘else’ do we have to look at it? ) In spite of everything that’s happened, the only number that matters is what your total net worth is when you actually go… to retire.

Where I turned cold on this lady’s whole debacle is the minute I read “golf course”. That was the whole “momentum appeal” that you’d be ready and able to flip to another ( younger ) boomer at a time and rate of return of ‘your’ choosing.

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-12-11 13:37:23

‘Where I turned cold on this lady’s whole debacle is the minute I read “golf course”. ‘

I couldn’t find that in the story - ? I notice the story has been “updated” and I wonder if that telling detail was deleted.

 
Comment by Rancher
2009-12-11 16:51:25

DinOR
Retirement: Money in the bank does you
no good. Even at 5% a mil will give you 50K
and with inflation at, say realistically at 3%,
your 50K is deminishing in buying power every year. With interest rates what they are now, you’d be hard pressed to make car payments.
So if you had nothing but cash you’d need at least 2-2.5mil to make it with some comfort.
The only way to do better is to own outright CRE that is perfectly located in an
affluent area that has a great lease record.
But you’ll need that mil to buy it and your
return will be roughly 10% a year with a %
set aside for repairs and maintenance.
This is doable.
Then you want to buy into a few good businesses as a minority shareholder and
take a small percentage of the profits while
plowing the rest back into the business.
Again, this is doable.

Thing to remember is the first mil is the hardest. The rest are a lot easier because
you can afford to buy top talent to help.

At least it worked for us 40,30,20 years ago.

 
 
Comment by Sleepr Cell
2009-12-11 12:50:36

“Reason being ( and I wish the best for friend ) but in all too many cases, they became their ‘own’ Greater Fools by putting $100k down on 5 different million dollar homes.”

I’ve seen this personally. Guy I know, (friend of a friend) bought a nice place in Chelsey NYC back in the 90’s Price then went up by an order of magnitude, he sold, moved to Miami and bought a VERY nice (overpriced) condo, and,……

FIVE more to flip.

Last I heard from his friends in New York is that he lost every penny and has filed for bankrupsy.

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Comment by DinOR
2009-12-11 13:54:00

Sleepr Cell,

And one needn’t utterly FAIL w/ spectacular pyrothechnics for it to be considered a total meltdown!

Just (1) infestment home or “2nd home” or a condough “in the city” is all that’s required to circle the drain. ( But I ‘do’ so love the pyro stories, don’t you? ) Fills my heart w/ Yuletide cheer.

 
 
 
Comment by Lion-O
2009-12-11 12:18:14

I had good timing buying and selling as well. I took time off work, went to school, and am now self employed.

 
Comment by snake charmer
2009-12-11 14:33:17

That’s because many of the winners thought they were so smart that they kept right on playing and, eventually, became losers. It also might be because winning tended to have a strong relationship with coincidence. To use an example from the bubble that preceded this one, I remember a colleague who left my company in 2000 and thereby was forced to exercise his vested stock options. He bought a Porsche. Eighteen months later those same options wouldn’t have cleared enough on exercise to fill up the gas tank.

Comment by DinOR
2009-12-11 15:14:09

snake charmer,

+1

And of course many took on the pre-requisite trophy wife that is now looking for a ‘real’ player. As I’ve said so many times, I have no grudge w/ those that got over extended simply as loanowners and got in over their head.

No malice ( although not a lot of respect either? ) It’s just that if we could have taken the multiple MEW-infestors out of the equation, we wouldn’t be gagging on a glut ‘today’!

If someone wants to borrow against their home ( and remains -current- on their mortgage… ) what business is that of ‘mine’?

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Comment by josemanolo
2009-12-11 15:06:06

bingo!

 
 
Comment by PortlandDad
2009-12-11 13:36:14

Comment by combotechie
2009-12-11 09:12:02

“U.S. homeowners have lost about $5.9 trillion in value since the housing market’s peak in March 2006.”

Okay, Packman, tell us where the $5.9 trillion went?
—————————————————————

Not packman, but I have an idea. It went to the sellers who sold for these high prices that the FB’s agreed to. And they don’t have to give it back.

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-11 13:57:27

That was my thought, too. You would have to look into how those who sold at the top spent their money to give a satisfactory answer to the question of where the money went. Also worth looking at expenditures by workers in financial sector industries which milked large cuts off high-priced home sale transactions.

 
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-12-11 15:17:37

It was a huge money party, early sellers, builders, realtors, apparaisers, mortgage brokers, bankers, investment bankers, executives at rating agencies etc. all took a huge piece of the pie. I would assume that a tremendous amount of that money was either reinvested in Real Estate, Consumables or the equities market, all of which ate up much of the value.

Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-12-11 19:13:59

Right, and that huge amount of money spent that went to new cars ,vacations ,
new furniture ,you name it ,was often times the result of a
equity loan . They were selling the concept of letting the house
give you the life-style you deserve .Only problem was it wasn’t really the life style they could afford and the house crashed in value because the values were pushed up because of faulty lending .

This is were Wall Street /Banks/Corporations went to far with the
appeal to the base instincts of people . The people couldn’t say no to their
desires and Wall Street provided a fake method of obtaining the money to buy every product that one might desire . The Entitlement Society got the old ,”You deserve to live the life style you want .” According to the post that Carrie Ann posted
called “The Century of Self “, the advertisers targeted the irrational in humans and humans responded .

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Comment by combotechie
2009-12-11 17:47:37

My take is the $5.9 trillion poofed itself into thin air from whence it came.

Take notice that it said homeowners lost about $5.9 trillion in VALUE; that doesn’t necessairly mean they lost $5.9 million in REAL MONEY.

The ones that lost real money are the ones that cashed out the thin air gain that preceeded this thin air loss. This loss, to them, is a bit more real than just a poof.

Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-12-11 19:24:51

Some people never banked their gains from real estate ,so the fall in value really didn’t come out of their pocket . But people who gave sellers the high peak prices (by getting it from the lender),the sellers got the money and it had to go somewhere .So,I also would be interested in knowing if the 5.9 trillion is real money or gains thats long term owners never cashed in on that crashed .

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Comment by combotechie
2009-12-11 20:56:11

Some people felt these trillions would be there for their retirement, for their kids college, for whatever. Their lifestyles became loose as a result; Some termed this the Wealth Effect. This Wealth Effect led people to believe they were rich and were destined to become richer.

So what was one to to do with this easily gotten wealth? Well, since they no longer had to sock away money for retirement or save for their kids college, the niftiest thing to do was to spend the wealth that would otherwise go for these retirement or college funds.

Note: These spenders did not necessairly HELOC their houses to tap into the wealth; They merely spent money they would have otherwise saved if their house hadn’t magically become a money tree.

The economy grew dependent on this spending - spending money due to the wealth effect and spending money that was HELOCed. Now that the spending has stopped the economy has put itself into reverse.

IMHO, as always.

 
Comment by SaladSD
2009-12-11 22:21:38

How do you account for the uptick in consumer spending and all the wall street hoopla today? I can’t figure out where people are getting their money for all those flatscreens.

 
Comment by combotechie
2009-12-12 06:04:34

Maybe the money for flatscreens would have gone to housepayments as it used to do in more normal times.

Today it’s no big deal to skip making housepayments. Nothing bad seems to happen to these people (not yet, at least).

So, not making payments on the house frees up cash that can be spent on more important things, such as flatscreens.

 
Comment by CA renter
2009-12-13 04:08:25

That’s what I’m thinking, combo.

It would be nice to know how many people have missed at least one mortgage payment this past year. Add up all those missed payments…I’m sure that provided quite the stimulus this year!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by jetson_boy
2009-12-11 09:24:42

A few thoughts. First of all, I’ll make an overarching blanket statement that sums up the part of this post referring to “using duct tape” to fix the housing “problem”. Of course everything is being done to revive housing to the position it was during the boom. The US economy is fueled by bubbles and I can guarantee that as we speak, banks, brokerage firms, and the real estate lobbies are cooking up clever, weaselly schemes to get the bubble inflating again. It’ll happen. Just watch.

Secondly in regards to yuppies moving in trying to find utopia, well I’ve seen this myself over and over and over again. I currently live in an East Bay neighborhood outside of Oakland ( SF Bay Area) and 7 years ago the town still had a sort of working class feel. But now the town is more or less the same as just about any other “cute” town in the area, full of yuppie parents with newborns. They all came in from SF and since homes here are “only” $500,000, here they come. A few months ago I visited my parents who live in a city in East TN. It too was primarily a working class city. Now the downtown is full of lofts, brewpubs, art galleries and of course a healthy supply of hipsters, yuppies, and recently relocated baby boomers from the Northeast. Yes- they’ve turned the city into a “real city” , the word “real” referring to its successful transformation into another yuppie paradise. The same is true for my wife’s small town in Pennsylvania. It too has suffered the same fate. All these formerly interesting towns with their slightly gritty atmospheres “saved” by an influx of newcomers who doctor them up to look cute.

Lastly, I think a severe crash in China is inevitable. They’ve been ever so cleverly lowering the value of their currency in step with the lowering of the dollar. The result is massive over inflation. Its only a matter of time before they suffer their own economic fallout and when that occurs, we’re all going to feel it. Drastically.

Comment by X-philly
2009-12-11 09:28:12

The same is true for my wife’s small town in Pennsylvania. It too has suffered the same fate.

Phoenixville?

Comment by jetson_boy
2009-12-11 09:33:25

I can’t even remember the name of it. Pottstown or something like that.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 09:44:31

Pottstown got gentrified? Pottstown? For pete’s sake, there’s no there there.

What’s the attraction? This born -n- raised Keystone state person wishes to be enlightened.

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Comment by X-philly
2009-12-11 11:25:13

Don’t know what’s occurring in Pottstown, but Phoenixville is experiencing a bit of a renaissance.

 
Comment by Martin Gale
2009-12-11 12:05:56

I’m with Slim — Pottstown??!!! Gentrified?!!! Good grief.

 
Comment by James
2009-12-11 22:47:08

Its too late for anyone to read this but Pottstown does have the Yengling brewery. I’ve got at least one chin and a love handle dedicated to them.

Ahhhh. being downwind of three mile island. PA, I do so miss her.

 
Comment by cashedin05
2009-12-12 11:07:30

“Don’t know what’s occurring in Pottstown, but Phoenixville is experiencing a bit of a renaissance.”

WTF. I was born there and graduated from PHS. Phoenixville’s charm was its old steel town feel. The condo craze hits Phoenixville :(

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2009-12-11 13:16:07

Pottsville, where Yuengling is brewed, rather than Pottstown?

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Comment by polly
2009-12-11 13:35:49

Oh, well, deciding to live near a brewery indicates that there was some sort of decision going on.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 13:39:53

Ah, Yuengling. One of the best local brews on the planet.

 
Comment by MrBubble
2009-12-11 15:59:43

Pottersville? It’s no longer Bedford Falls?? Clarence didn’t jump in the river to save George? Say it ain’t so!!!

My Aussie partner has not seen “It’s A Wonderful Life” yet. I can’t wait to nudge her at the run on the bank scene… and “Potter’s not selling, Potter’s buying”… and the near collapse of the Building and Loan… and…

Ugh, actually she may hate watching it with me and my family.

MrBubble

 
 
Comment by DebtinNation
2009-12-11 15:10:21

Jetson Boy,

I wouldn’t blame it entirely on yuppies. I think it has more to do with Corporate America, the Starbucks and the Best Buys that mow down the little guy. Working Class or Yuppie; everyone has had a hand in making so many towns generic.

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Comment by Mags57
2009-12-11 22:54:44

“more to do with Corporate America, the Starbucks and the Best Buys that mow down the little guy….everyone has had a hand in making so many towns generic.”

+1, everyone likes to forget that the ‘little guy’ only loses because the majority of the people (local consumers) decide to support the Wal-Marts and Best Buys and do so knowing that it’s at the expense of the ‘little guy’. People need to stop b1tching about stuff being made in China and jobs lost - it’s exactly what everyone is supporting in their buying decisions.

 
 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-12-11 14:27:33

No, not Pottstown. Would they turn the shoe polish factory into a nightclub? Exton maybe.

But, for you Philly folks, there’s 300 miles of Pennsylvania west of you too.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 14:57:24

Something that the rest of the state loves to point out to the Philadelphians. I was born in Pittsburgh and spent part of my growing up years in Washington County, which is south of the city. Also spent some of my early adult years in Pittsburgh. So, I know the “more to this state than Philadelphia” line quite weel.

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Comment by X-philly
2009-12-11 14:59:32

Yes and some of us Philly folks have lived in Western PA, that’s why the “Downtown” article was of particular interest .

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Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-12-11 20:22:12

For us, happiness was Pennsylvania in the rear view mirror. Coldest place we ever lived, and I don’t mean just in meteorological terms.

OTOH, Nothin’ could be finer than to be in…

 
 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2009-12-11 09:43:09

Your comment on the limp-wristed, sneaker-wearing, vulva driving fools is spot on (add to that the SLOBurban driving pig people). But I can tell you that trend has reversed on them in a painful way. All of them are subject to the invisible hand of the markets (labor, housing, stock) just like we are. Many of these Metro-Pukes that destroyed entire towns in VT and upstate NY are currently sinking, albeit slowly. It’s going to be a painful ride for them. Some with a few brains bailed in the last 18 months but there far more slowly sinking in the morass called post-industrial/post-internet decay that has resumed in a big way in those areas I mentioned.

Comment by In Montana
2009-12-11 13:39:22

Around here most of them work for the govt or university so are doing just fine (so far).

 
 
Comment by In Montana
2009-12-11 10:17:06

“All these formerly interesting towns with their slightly gritty atmospheres “saved” by an influx of newcomers who doctor them up to look cute.”

And they all talk like they’ve done something unique, and aren’t we wonderful, etc.

Comment by DinOR
2009-12-11 11:03:38

In Montana,

My good friend ( and a ‘true’ Westerner ) describes simply as; “Having been too ‘cute’ to survive!”

That was the case in the 10k pop. Marion County, OR town “I” live in. The hard part was explaining to all the non-REIC biz owners just how long… the new arrivals would have to -remain- here before they broke even on what reic’stas were making?

Let’s see..? You own the local fitness club and at an avg. $30 mo. membership fee, they’ll only have to be members until the year 2056 for you to rake in the same $18k commission the realtwhore made in a day?

 
 
Comment by 20910
2009-12-11 10:58:46

I don’t think you can blame the newborns. ;)

 
Comment by snake charmer
2009-12-11 12:57:54

I visited downtown Portsmouth, NH earlier this year and it looked like that, full of artisan shops and specialty businesses geared towards what must be a dwindling number of people willing, or able, to buy what was being sold. I confess that I liked it, because it wasn’t the alienating chain stores, huge parking lots, and strip mall sprawl I’m used to as a Floridian.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2009-12-11 14:13:43

‘It’ll happen’

Always one of the funniest things one reads here…

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-12-11 18:49:54

It’ll happen. Just watch. ;-)

FeddieBennieMae rolls out NEW program for “certain” Americans to become “stake-holders” in the “ownership society”. ;-)

*For every person with a sub-prime FICO score of $200,000 in student financial-aide loans per family, are not behind on any Gov’t car loans of more than 120 days, have not applied for more than x3 “dough-for-dumps” tax credits per household, have not violated any Federal gov’t un-employment benefits extensions, are not involved in any Federal “whistle-blowing” lawsuits, are not currently enrolled in the Federal Gov’t “witness protection” program…and can testify under oath that the 20% down payment required was not obtained from a 3rd party or can be traced to a known drug felon or “cash-for-transport” of ill-legals into America.

:-)

 
Comment by jetson_boy
2009-12-11 18:52:11

Not sure what you meant by that. This country is run on bubbles. Its nothing new and dates back since its founding. That this housing bubble was so spectacular doesn’t indicate that none even more so are on the horizon. Trust me- if anyone would love to see the last bubble deflate and economics to run with responsibility its me.

But the fact is that we were scalped as a nation out of our money by the same people who will likely come up ways to do it again. If you saw the news today there were limits placed on earnings at the largest financial institutions. A cap at $500,000. Already many have walked. Its this insurmountable greed that drives the people at these and other firms to create machines that constantly generate more and more money. If you live in a country where the economy is based off of people buying Chinese junk at Wallyworld and selling houses back and forth, there’s only so many ways you can make money and to do so means extracting more money out of the middle class.

I don’t have a crystal ball. But there will be another bubble, probably in housing, and probably more spectacular then the last. We’ve had them in the past, we just had one, and we’ll have another. Its a story of greed, fear, stupidity, and ignorance and it happens in the US over and over and over again.

Comment by Ben Jones
2009-12-11 19:30:38

‘I don’t have a crystal ball. But there will be another bubble’

This is sort of what I meant by funny. I always laugh when someone tells me what “will” be.

‘This country is run on bubbles’

I think this is what becomes perception during financial manias, especially when there have been two back-to-back, like Japans’ stock/RE bubbles. It has lasted so long that people think it is the norm, and we’ve always had them and we’ll experience more and more. History shows this is not the case.

Sure there are gold rushes, beanie babies and bank panics, but true financial manias are rare. Look back and see that there are only a hand full in modern history. These days it’s hard to look at the media and not hear the word bubble. I even heard about a children’s book called Mabel’s Bubble, or something like that, the other day.

What I’ve noticed is that all sorts of societal ills, excesses, etc, are associated with the housing bubble these days. I guess that is inevitable. But this event was rare, I would say maybe even singular in the history of man. And as tempting as it is to say “men are fools, so bubbles will happen over and over again”, I would suggest that what we’ve experienced, a global mania on an unimaginable scale, will never happen again in our lifetimes, or maybe never again period.

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Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-12-11 20:30:06

How many of you are familiar with the Kondratieff long wave theory?

en dot wikipedia dot org/wiki/Kondratiev_wave

Spring will arrive again in due course.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-12 00:34:07

“It’ll happen”

Yes it will — but only in my grand childrens’ lifetimes, if not later.

Speaking of grand children brings to mind a song I would like to share with you:

Humpty-dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty-dumpty had a great fall.
All the king’s horses and all the king’s men
Couldn’t put Humpty together again.

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Comment by Housing Wizard
2009-12-12 08:17:27

Ben …..Thanks for your post on the fact that this bubble was
way out of line with your typical business cycle .

I don’t know why Experts and the PR machine keep trying to underplay the degree of out of ordinary this bubble was ,but I suppose it’s to sidetrack the focus on the culprits .

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by exeter
2009-12-11 09:27:38

“She fears the bank will foreclose on her property unless she can pay her newly modified loan. ‘I feel like they’re just waiting to snatch my house from me,’ said Penny.”

Yeah… you’re feeling that way because deep down, you damn well know it’s not your house. Get it BankSlave?

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 09:49:45

And, here’s another not-so-fun fact:

If, after you’ve paid off the mortgage, you stop paying your property taxes, you’ll find out who really owns your house. That would be the government entity which levies those property taxes. Which will initiate foreclosure proceedings.

Comment by DinOR
2009-12-11 12:38:06

Arizona Slim,

Oh and I agree! Why is that so hard to get across? Peter Graves came on my TV and said he could get me a Reverse Mortgage and since he was in the original Mission Impossible you know all those seniors have nothing to worry about..?

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 12:46:27

Within easy walking distance of the Arizona Slim Ranch is a house that was reverse mortgaged in late 2006. Elderly homeowner suffered a fall in late 2007. She broke her leg in two places.

After she got out of surgery and a five-week stay in a convalescent home, she moved in with family members who live in another city. House underwent cosmetic fixups and went on the market in mid-2008. Didn’t sell. Went into foreclosure this past summer. It’s now listed with a distressed property sales agency.

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Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-12-11 20:32:47

So, is she better off having had the reverse mortgage and gotten some money out of her property? Or would it be better if the albatross was still around her neck?

 
 
 
 
Comment by Bad Andy
2009-12-11 10:09:56

The modification program is a scam in my opinion. The bank offered us a great new fixed payment, and then the paperwork arrived. That low fixed payment was for 3 months followed up with a balloon payment. They were just trying to grab an extra $2,100 from us before the inevitable foreclosure…probably to help pay their legal expenses.

Comment by polly
2009-12-11 11:27:43

Did you apply for a modification under the program, or was this just a spontaneous offer from the bank. Because, I can’t be really surprised that a bank that wants money will offer you a deal that is bad for you and good for it.

Not that the deals under the government program aren’t bad deals. I think they are. 36% of gross income is way, way too high, which is what the program calls for as I recall. But as a private, out of the blue offer, what else do you expect? Of course it is going to be good for the bank and bad for you. They are still selling the loans. The volume of refinacings determines a huge chunk of their income. Volume of refi’s. Not volume of good refi’s. This is the very essence of the moral hazzard that was created when the banks stopped holding on to the loans they originated.

Comment by DinOR
2009-12-11 12:39:35

polly,

Spot on, and the sad part is, this was the (1) window the banking “community” had to show that they could set aside their own self-interest for 15 minutes and do what was right for the country. Or not.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 12:47:38

Oh, brother. Looks like I owe Polly yet another drink when I visit DC. Polly, you’re going to need a designated driver or an escort on the Metro.

 
Comment by Watching the Carnage
2009-12-11 18:01:00

Arizona Slim,

AZ, you’re off the hook for drinks when and if you come to DC. My offer - If you schedule a DC meet-up I’ll pick up the bill.

I’ve really appreciated you and polly’s posts over the years. I would hope that Pondering, Laurel and others from the DC Metro area would participate.

Ben has recently indicated his interest in an East Coast meet-up and I’m convinced we can pull together a good group.

 
 
Comment by Bad Andy
2009-12-11 13:22:50

Forget the government program, no one actually “qualifies” for it and those that do are crazy to accept it. This was a long, drawn out negotiation with the bank.

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Comment by polly
2009-12-11 13:53:06

OK. Then I repeat., I am not surprised. The bank may originate and even service the loans, but they don’t own them. They don’t care if they are good loans. And they sure as heck don’t care if it is a good loan for you over a long period of time. When banks owned loans, they had a reason to make ones that were well secured by the underlying asset and that the borrower would want to keep (keeping a paying loan around being easier than finding another good loan to make). Now that they don’t own the loans, they just want to offer you something tempting enough to get you to take it and to heck with the down the line consequenses.

The banks are pretty much selling checkout aisle candy/soda/chips these days. Impulse purchases. Not a good thing to do with any financial transaction that is going to cost you more than a buck or two in my opinion.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 14:58:30

The banks are pretty much selling checkout aisle candy/soda/chips these days. Impulse purchases. Not a good thing to do with any financial transaction that is going to cost you more than a buck or two in my opinion.

No truer words were spoken.

 
 
Comment by Rancher
2009-12-11 17:00:03

This is the very essence of the moral hazzard that was created when the banks stopped holding on to the loans they originated.

This is the kernal of Genesis right here. When
this happened, the financial rubicon was crossed where profits overcame ethics and morality.

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Comment by Rancher
2009-12-11 17:03:39

This is the very essence of the moral hazzard that was created when the banks stopped holding on to the loans they originated.

This is the core kernal of Genesis. When the banks crossed their financial rubicon by abrogating fiscal responsibility as originators,
they substituted greed for ethics and morality.

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Comment by eudemon
2009-12-11 19:39:51

Great post, polly.

Yes- considerable moral hazard prevails. And why wouldn’t it?

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Comment by FitzClarence
2009-12-11 09:28:22

From the two dudes at the Wisconsin Realtors Association:

“… homes would be able to be listed at prices more in tune with what the owner owes and with what the house is worth …”

(Since when are these the same thing? I’m not going to inherit the problem that the owner overpaid for the property!)

” … and brokers and agents should stop accepting low-ball offers.”

(Hey — a low offer is better than no offer, isn’t it? And the last time I looked, the buyer sets the price, not the seller. A seller with no buyer hasn’t really sold anything at all.)

Comment by ACH
2009-12-11 09:58:13

Yes, Fitz, I mean really.
Low ball offers indeed. How’s about current market price?

Here is some more:

“He figures the house he bought for $640,000 in 2006 is now worth $250,000.”

“‘You never talk to he same person twice,’ Heller said. ‘It makes you a little bit kooky. This has been extremely stressful.’”

What did they expect? I just don’t get it. Didn’t we learn anything about bubble pricing? 1929? dotcom? South Seas? Tulips? Beanie Babies?

Jeez,
Roidy
P.S. Now we are using debt to solve a debt crisis. 80

Comment by blofeld42
2009-12-11 11:20:58

Yeah, I saw somewhere that Salinas median prices have dropped from $650K to $200K, so his price change seems about right. A few years ago they were one of the top ten most overpriced housing markets.

I also wonder how much of his “landscaping business” was real. During the bubble everyone was claiming a side business on their loan application in which they made six figures doing landscaping and daycare.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 11:46:04

I also wonder how much of his “landscaping business” was real.

Me too. There’s a lot of landscaping work that can be done by (gasp!) the homeowner. Or by the homeowner’s kids. (Didn’t just about everyone here have to pitch in on the yard care and other household chores? I know I sure did!)

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Comment by polly
2009-12-11 13:18:48

My parents got us little child-sized rakes (or maybe grandma and grandpa already had them?) and had us crawl under the shrubs to clear out leaves from the time we were 4 or 5. Or putting the pine needles into the bags for transport to the dump. You don’t need to be tall to do either of those things. As a matter of fact, being short is positively a benefit for crawling under shrubs and picking stuff up off the ground. We got to jump in the piles first. The a tall person re-raked into a coherent pile. Then it was time to “pay” for the jumping by picking up.

I think I managed to get out of one weekend one year in high school when I was studying for standardized tests, but that was about it.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 14:59:58

My shortness is frequently an advantage when I’m working on the plumbing here at the Ranch. BTW, I did get that kitchen faucet replaced. Had to go through two faulty Delta faucets before I found Price Pfister nirvana.

 
Comment by DebtinNation
2009-12-11 15:17:43

How much of our economy would outright disappear if it had to? Haircuts? Lawn mowing? 23″ Rims?

 
Comment by MrBubble
2009-12-11 16:07:55

“How much of our economy would outright disappear if it had to? Haircuts? Lawn mowing? 23″ Rims?”

My $25 clippers have saved me a haircut a month for the last 6 years. At $20 a cut (I dunno), that’s about $1400 after the purchase of the clippers. I keep them well cared for, but someday I’ll have to sharpen them.

(Being bald is about lemonade out of lemons. But damn you di-testosterone!)

I’ll never have a lawn, only a garden. Lawns are useless.

And it’s hard to have 23’s when your only transportation is a bike….

MrBubble

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 16:22:13

How much of our economy would outright disappear if it had to? Haircuts? Lawn mowing? 23″ Rims?

Please make the 23″ rims disappear. Especially the spinners.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-12-11 23:17:36

Slim look what I found for you:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2224782

 
 
Comment by SMF
2009-12-11 14:13:19

Salinas has always been where the poor that work around Santa Cruz live, or to state it bluntly, a place where many illegals call home.

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Comment by Sleepr Cell
2009-12-11 13:17:41

“What did they expect? I just don’t get it. Didn’t we learn anything about bubble pricing? 1929? dotcom? South Seas? Tulips? Beanie Babies?”

No, that’s the whole point. “we” (as a species) never learn. It’s hard wired into our synapses. HBB is the exception that proves the point.

My deepest fear is that we (again, as a species) are going to have to get a whole lot smarter in order to get through the problems that are headed our way. Who here want’s to place odds on that?

 
 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-11 11:57:06

The stupid it BURNS. Because as a buyer, I should feel obliged to give 100k extra to some stranger because that’s what they owe?
Of course I parse the sentence below a little differently.

“Nearby homes would be able to be listed at prices more in tune with what the owner owes and with what the house is worth, according to some.”
I tend to think that “according to some” modifies “what the house is worth.” And people the bringing the money are the ones who ultimately get to vote on what the house is worth.

 
 
Comment by tj
2009-12-11 09:35:49

hey PACKMAN!

please keep posting!

you have a knack for explaining things in an easy to understand way.

a few months ago i tried to explain that if we had a ‘free market in money’ which as you know means letting the market set interest rates instead of the fed (aka greenspan, bernanke), this mess could have never got started.

i was unable to effectively make my point.

we have the pretentious fed thinking they know where interest rates should be. not only don’t they know, it is impossible for anyone to know. the market would set rates by trial and error, and thus never be much in error but yet always in error to a small degree. no one can make corrections like the free market.

it has only been since greenspan decided that the federal reserve was omniscient that this mess has sprang up.

if there had been a free market in money, it would have never become cheap and the bubble could have never got started.

anyway, thanks for your posts. they are needed..

Comment by Blue Skye
2009-12-11 15:56:02

This was a mania. The Fed did not cause the mania. Sure, they were enablers, evil parasites even, but they did not make the nation manic. Pinning it all on them is simple denial of our own collective weakness, greed and stupidity.

The reason that I harp on this is to point out that the Fed is powerless to prevent what follows mania.

Comment by tj
2009-12-11 18:11:10

ok, you say the FED didn’t cause the mania.. what in your opinion did cause it?

the FED didn’t need to prevent the mania, all it needed to do was not cause it..

 
 
 
Comment by X-philly
2009-12-11 09:39:37

If the community’s homebuyers would agree to stop approaching home sales with an eye to hack the price down to a fraction of its original size (I know another agent who calls this ‘raping’ the seller), values would stop falling.

The brilliance of the UHS again rears its ugly head.
A Homebuyer Price Support Cartel - sounds like a plan!

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 09:45:34

Hey, X-philly, I’m about to head back to eastern PA to visit the family. Wanna get together?

Comment by X-philly
2009-12-11 11:20:13

Yes that would be fun.
westernskygraphics?

is that your website…

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 11:47:56

Change the last word from “graphics” to “communications”, add a .com to the end, and you’ve got my website.

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Comment by ACH
2009-12-11 10:10:24

Yes, it IS brilliant. Amazing! I should have thought of that. Everyone should force the sellers to take more than their house is worth.

Roidy

Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-12-11 17:50:12

You could have knocked me over with a feather when I read that……the answer was in front of us the whole time!!!!!

I was just stunned by the brilliance and simplicity of the plan.

 
 
Comment by 20910
2009-12-11 10:53:52

Riiiiiiiight.

Not willing to overpay = rape.

What an a-hole.

Comment by Kim
2009-12-11 15:39:46

Yep, I had to read that comment a few times myself. There is a person underwater on at least three or four properties.

 
 
Comment by snake charmer
2009-12-11 11:02:28

I couldn’t believe that comment. The solution is that buyers should overpay, put themselves deep into debt, and take a bullet for the “community.” Ingenious. Somebody needs to inform that salescommission-dependent dog s__t moron that the idea of community was destroyed when we became a nation of speculators and turned residences into just another commodity to be bought and sold and borrowed against.

As someone who rented a house two years ago, I completely agree that, in Tampa, renting is the new owning. But I wouldn’t rent in southeastern Hillsborough or central Pasco, because those half-empty subidivisions give me the creeps. I saw that Connerton officially closed down last week, not before claiming some victims.

Comment by snake charmer
2009-12-11 11:40:00

There also was an extremely discouraging recent article in the St. Pete Times in which a local realtor enthusiastically chronicled the reappearance of bubble phenomena: someone from the UK buying property sight unseen, people investing in second homes with the belief that their property can rent and be cash flow positive, a sense of urgency among buyers, etc. The only thing missing was Alan Greenspan suggesting that an ARM makes sense when mortgage rates are at historic lows.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 11:49:41

people investing in second homes with the belief that their property can rent and be cash flow positive

Note that the key word in the above snippet is “belief.”

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Comment by pismoclam
2009-12-11 14:56:08

If you think Alan Greenspan is dumb and ugly take a look at his wife Andrea Mitchell !!!

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Comment by Insurance Guy
2009-12-11 09:49:34

The analogy with drugs is still the one I like. The Fed has the country addicted to the money supply. If the economy turns down, they just turn up the money supply. It worked to prevent several recessions but the pressure just built up in the form of bubbles.

My guess is behavior towards debt has changed for at least two decades. These people with these huge mortgages just need to quit complaining and realize they got suckered. Call him Madoff or Greenspan, it was the same scheme. They should get on with their lifes. I appreciate that fact that I get most of my information from the internet through this site and a couple of others (Dollar Collapse). There is good information out there and you can make good decisions and life goes on.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 12:07:21

My guess is behavior towards debt has changed for at least two decades.

And I sure hope your guess is correct!

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-12-11 20:38:41

If inflation comes back, going into debt will become not only fashionable but smart.

 
 
 
Comment by 20910
2009-12-11 10:51:21

This is so gross. And they are so blatant about it!!

” ‘For the first time in history, the budget wanted to tinker with mortgage deductibility,’ he said. ‘We killed that fast, but [the fact] that they even included it tells me that they’ll bring it back again.’”

“He encouraged members to donate to the state association to maintain ‘one of the most powerful lobbies in Sacramento.’”

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 11:09:43

Here in Tucson, that most powerful lobby just went down in flames.

The REIC-sters were backing something called the Public Safety Initiative, which would have mandated certain levels of first responder staffing in our police and fire departments.

The voters had their say on Election Day, and the PSI was defeated by a 70-30 margin.

Here’s our local alt-weekly, chortling about this epic fail.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-12-11 13:52:53

Police unions = CULT
Fire unions = CULT

And to think that those Un-American Democraps won in a Full Flush repubican representative state… ;-)

The Public Safety First Initiative, which would have forced the city to hire more cops and firefighters over the next five years, takes the award for Biggest Waste of Money.

Supporters—primarily the Tucson Association of Realtors, with help from Jim Click, the Southern Arizona Home Builders Association and the police and fire unions—spent a whopping $380,551 on the ballot effort, which was rejected by 70 percent of voters on Nov. 3.

Opponents of the initiative spent a lot less. Don’t Handcuff Tucson, a political committee that got funding from the Pima County Democratic Party, the Tucson Chamber of Commerce and the Arizona Multihousing Association, spent $72,632.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 15:01:07

Police unions = CULT
Fire unions = CULT

All right, Highway, was that you I saw hanging out Downtown near the City Court the other day?

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Comment by 20910
2009-12-11 10:56:25

“And he said others have a role to play as well: sellers should try to keep homes off the market, appraisers should give a property credit for every dollar of its worth, banks should start prices higher, and brokers and agents should stop accepting low-ball offers.”

Is this kind of stuff legal? Brokers and agents not accepting low ball offers?
What does that mean exactly? They don’t show them to the seller?

What a puke.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 11:05:00

Brokers and agents not accepting low ball offers?

I don’t know the exact wording, but, IIRC, brokers and agents are obliged to consider all offers that are presented to them. And, if the only offers being submitted are what they consider to be “lowball,” well, that’s the free market talkin’, baby.

Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-12-11 17:55:50

And the seller is entitled to reject any low-ball offers, and hold out for whatever bubble price they think the place is worth.

At least as long as he can continue to feed the alligator.

 
 
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-12-11 11:06:24

“I talked to a real estate agent this week who thinks the market doesn’t have to be this way. If the community’s homebuyers would agree to stop approaching home sales with an eye to hack the price down to a fraction of its original size (I know another agent who calls this ‘raping’ the seller), values would stop falling. Nearby homes would be able to be listed at prices more in tune with what the owner owes and with what the house is worth, according to some.”

That to me is probably the most assinine comment I have ever heard. Buyers should not try to get the best deal possible? HUH?

Comment by wittbelle
2009-12-11 11:47:51

I’m thinking this real estate genius, whomever he might be, and I would really like to know, neglected to think through the fact that sellers are now contending with bank foreclosures that are flooding the market, tighter lending standards and high unemployment, (hence fewer buyers) and God only knows what else. He left out the word “delusional”. “I talked to a delusional real estate agent this week…” Good Lord save us all.

 
Comment by DebtinNation
2009-12-11 15:27:56

I know a way we can hack 6% right off the top of the price, azzhole realturd.

 
 
Comment by Biff Henderson
2009-12-11 11:18:58

I believe that these idiots keep forgetting that by law they are obligated to present all offers to the the sellers regardless if they think the offer is “lowball” or not.

Comment by palmetto
2009-12-11 12:44:30

“by law”

What does that even mean, anymore? I see blatant disregard for the law every day, all around me. I mean, when you can have a creature like Senator Baucus, who gives the staffer he’s bonking a $14,000 raise and a taxpayer-funded trip with him to Asia, BEFORE he nominates her for the AG of his state, crafting a health care bill where people will be forced (BY LAW, under pain of IRS harrassment and jail time) to buy insurance from some corrupt corporation, there’s no such thing as “by law” anymore. It’s more like “Buy Law”, for the corps.

But that’s just one example. “Buy Law”, we have to pay taxes, which “Buy Law” are consistently used against us.

There’s little enforcement of laws anymore. Wall Street sh*ts the bed and “Buy Law”, they’re rewarded with TARP. Oh, they go after a few shysters like Madoff here and there, but they had to arrest Madoff, he freely admitted what he did, despite all invitations to do otherwise.

Illegal immigrants to the US pour across the border every day and are rewarded with all sorts of taxpayer-funded goodies for them and their children, and are slobbered over sympathetically in the press. “BUY LAW” they’re not supposed to be here, but what the hey, who enforces laws in the US anyway, unless you do something so blatant it can’t be ignored. And even then.

Builders and developers have been casually told they could do their own inspections, “Buy Law”. This has led to all sort of housing defects, etc.

Obama’s Cindy Padilla, head of the US Dept on Aging or whatever it is called, gets a DUI and is told to take all the time she needs to recover and hey, just get to Washington when you can, poor dear. And O’bama himself decides he can go make policy in Copenhagen to bind the US, when “Buy Law”,
such a measure would have to go through Congress, or be a treaty ratifed by the Senate. But what’s a little detail like the law?

So why should a UHS even bother to present all bids? The only time anyone calls a UHS on something they’ve done, is when a jealous fellow-realtor files against their license with the state board, just to make trouble.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 12:48:56

Now that is what I call a good, healthy rant! Thanks, palmetto.

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Comment by DinOR
2009-12-11 15:26:29

palmetto,

Most excellent +1. You can’t get-out-of-BED before you’re smaked in the forehead repeatedly w/ “Buy Law”. It’s gotten so bad that I’ve been forced of late to very pointedly ask everyday people you interface w/:

(1) Do you have the -authority- to be making the claims you are making!?” ( i.e, refund, discount, promotion, contribution etc. etc. )

If you -don’t-, “Buy Law” will come along and smack you upside the head! “Well, ‘buy law’ had you read your agreement… ( which you yourself SIGNED..! )

(2) How LONG… is this Offer good for? A month, a week, a ‘day’? I recently had Verizon say that ( as you’d imagine “buy law” ) they are reneg’ing on my (2) Year ISP “contract”. There’s a laugh.

 
 
Comment by X-philly
2009-12-11 13:23:15

by law, Buy Law, bylaw, it’s all just window dressing.

At every station in life the only ones who are bound by law are those unconnected to the rich/famous/powerful.

It’s how the Mafia got started in Sicily. A mob had to form to combat all the other entrenched power mobs.

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Comment by Biff Henderson
2009-12-11 13:33:10

You won’t get an argument from me about how corrupt our system is currently. The laws are aimed at the little guy who can’t afford to hide behind lawyers and lobbyists. Until the American Public cares less about where Tiger Woods is dipping his wick and more about how they vote or communicate with their representatives nothing is going to change.

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Comment by Rancher
2009-12-11 17:12:37

Palm

You are good! Love your rants. Hope you
don’t mind but I share them with a few like minded friends who read them with wonder.
With a good editor, you could make some
money as a new “Frasher” — and don’t take
that the wrong way!

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Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-12-11 12:12:16

Remember when the DOJ Antitrust Division cleaned up the act of the NAR for collusive practices regarding boycotting homes listed with online and discount brokers? I was thinking, maybe we can write letters to the gentleman on the final court papers about the shadow inventory collusion to fix prices by the banks.

Craig Conrath
United Suites Department of Justice
Antitrust Division
Litigation III
4505th Street, NW
Room 4000
Washington DC 20530

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2008/May/nar-final-judgment.pdf
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2008/May/nar-stipulation.pdf

 
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2009-12-11 12:43:25

It’s exactly what you would expect the political system to do, not looking long term but looking short term to the next election cycle

And yet we’re constantly told about how wise and visionary the government is, unlike the private sector, because it doesn’t have to worry about the profit motive. By contrast, corporations and Wall St. are slammed for focussing only on the current quarter’s earnings.

NB: I hold no brief for either corp’s or Wall St., but they do have at least some distant connection w/ the free market, unlike our friends in DC.

 
Comment by Ben Jones
2009-12-11 14:23:19

‘we’re constantly told about how wise and visionary the government is, unlike the private sector, because it doesn’t have to worry about the profit motive’

Good point. I’ve watched in fascination as Washington has outdone itself making things worse and worse. Perhaps I can only blog on, documenting how the largest mania in history became a running disaster that will last over a decade.

Comment by snake charmer
2009-12-11 15:44:11

Good point. Much like Citibank, but in a different way, I thought this blog was winding down last year at this time. Not a chance on both counts!

Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-12-11 18:06:26

They have to be seen “doing something” in order to be reelected.

Maybe once, we will see someone say “Well, we are going to sit back and see how things develop before we do anything…….if anything, in fact, needs to be done”

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-12-11 22:00:08

“…Perhaps I can only blog on, documenting how the largest mania in history became a running disaster that will last over a decade.”

Hey now Mr. Ben, I thought these HBB “appetizers” went well with micro-brews! ;-)

 
 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-12-11 14:57:02

I didn’t find where anyone posted this, so I thought I would.

“House Eases Restrictions on Derivatives Trades

By JIM KUHNHENN Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON December 10, 2009 (AP) A bipartisan coalition in the House voted late Thursday to make it easier for corporations to engage in complex derivatives trades without government restrictions, eroding the reach of proposed regulations to govern Wall Street.

Democratic attempts to toughen the legislation failed.”

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=9298636

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 15:02:31

Perhaps I can only blog on, documenting how the largest mania in history became a running disaster that will last over a decade.

Please, Ben, don’t stop blogging now!

Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-12 00:27:34

My redeeming grace in this protracted disaster: I am blessed with a very perceptive wife. Today she explained to a friend who wanted to know what we plan to do about housing that we might have to continue renting until our kids are out of the house. That would give us another decade of renting pleasure before we become empty-nesters. At that point, I suppose we could move wherever we pleased, without the encumbrance of an underwater mortgage to tie us down.

 
 
Comment by Biff Henderson
Comment by Lip
2009-12-11 16:45:28

I love the article and the fact that the author can say “F—ed Up” whenever he wants. Too bad about our system that allows this kind of crap to occur over and over again.

 
 
Comment by potential buyer
2009-12-11 16:37:37

Having the possibility of moving one more time hanging over my head — I actually have started researching homes to buy, that I can afford in Silicon Valley.

After calling about a 3 or 4 and looking on the multiple listings, they are ALL under contract. I’m being told that investors are buying the bulk of the lower priced homes, so they are effectively pricing me out of the market. One more time.

I guess if I move into an apartment building, I won’t have to worry about having to move due to the place being sold, but I so don’t want to do that. I hate apts.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2009-12-11 16:44:47

I’m being told that investors are buying the bulk of the lower priced homes, so they are effectively pricing me out of the market. One more time.

I’m with you on the hating apartments. But, bad news to those investors: There’s already a glut of rentals. What’s worse, a lot of these investors are first-time landlords. They’re about to get some painful lessons in the realities of dealing with tenants and the havoc they wreak upon rental properties.

I once read in a book (by Gary Eldred) that it’s useful to make purchase offers to the owners of FRBOs. Why? Because behind many a “for rent” sign is someone who’s sick of landlording and wants to unload his/her “investment.”

 
Comment by Biff Henderson
2009-12-11 16:58:03

Consider renting a house or condo, there are many nice privately owned units on the market currently in good neighborhoods. And considering the state of the job market in SV I really question the wisdom of these investment buyers. High paying Jobs are gone, never to return.

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-12-11 17:44:26

potential buyer
Sorry to hear the specuvestors are at it again, and all you want is a place to live, not some wealth building pie in the sky dream. We’re in the same boat in So Ca. We’re a one check buyer and can’t seem to get a break either.

We’ve been living in a dive, with everything in storage. I can relate to your pain.

 
 
 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-12-11 19:59:33

Any tax experts online tonight?

Just got a letter from my County Appraiser……they want me to supply “Additional information” about my Dodge Charger to “properly assess” it for the upcoming tax year. Sent me a form to fill out, to be returned within 10 days.

Do I fill this POS out, or do I ignore it?……. My attitude is that if they want to appraise it, they can try to find it, and appraise it their own damn selves.

The car is currently on a non-highway title, with no drivetrain, and in need of some rust repair (I put it on a non-highway title, until I find a new job, and can finish it). Basically, a nice “project” I haven’t been able to start yet.

As I suspected, it was only a matter of time before state governments started digging their vampire teeth into these cars. It pi$$es me off that I spend a lot of time and money turning POS’s into something nice, and now these jackholes want to tax me for the privledge, especially since they have been collecting Property Tax on this thing for almost 40 years, and charged me sales tax on the purchase price when I transferred the title.

I can always put Texas plates on it, I guess……..

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-12-11 20:50:07

GS, you don’t happen to live in Pennsylvania do you? When we lived there they tried to tax us on the sale of our house in another state that took place over a year before we moved to PA (we rented in the interim). Then when we moved out of PA, they came after us again for something that occurred the year after we had left.

You’ve got a friend in Pennsylvania? What a joke!

Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-12-12 08:31:45

No…….Tornado Alley.

All the latest trends start on the coasts, and make their way out here eventually. Thanks to CNN and the Internet, all these hare-brained schemes make it out here a lot faster than they used to.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-12 00:20:31

“…I know another agent who calls this ‘raping’ the seller…”

So what is the buyer supposed to do — pull down his pants, bend over, and beg the seller to have his way?

 
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