Bits Bucket For December 21, 2009
Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum.
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here. Please visit the HBB Forum.
Happy Solstice Day, and I have a question for you all:
Do you think the housing market will come back after the Souper Bowl?
And if so, in which year?
Happy Solstice Day to you, too!
Right now, things are on fire everywhere I look. Bidding wars, tons of speculation from small-timers and large investment groups, as well.
I think sales in the beginning of 2010 will be **off the charts,** and prices will rise about 5% YOY nationwide. In San Diego, I think YOY prices will increase by 10% or so by August (spring sales closing in August). At some point next year, I anticipate more inventory coming on because a significant number of sellers have been waiting for a strong market (with somewhat higher prices), and some of these investment properties (purchased in bulk by large investment groups/foreign entities?) might actually find their way to the market as well.
Whatever happens, it will certainly be an interesting year.
Best to you and your family, PB, as you wait out this next year. I have a feeling it will be a very difficult time for those of us who have been trying to keep our spouses out of the Kool-Aid. It will be running thick out there for at least another 6-9 months, IMHO.
“Best to you and your family, PB, as you wait out this next year. I have a feeling it will be a very difficult time for those of us who have been trying to keep our spouses out of the Kool-Aid. It will be running thick out there for at least another 6-9 months, IMHO.”
How are you doing w/that CA renter? Recent published studies still had our local home values barely dropping. I started to wonder why I’m still renting to save all of $7k to $10k.
We’ve had a good year financially but I keep gettting a nagging feeling there’s something I should be doing, preparing for while I’m just sitting here and waiting. I’d really like to get that food producing garden going. I’d like to stockpile some inventory,if only to be prepared for an icestorm, that isn’t too big to move if the landlord stops paying their mortgage or decides they’re upping the rent. I’d like to network w/neighbors I don’t even have yet. Some days I feel smart waiting. Other days I feel like i’m wasting time.
It’s not easy, unfortunately. Prices in our area have barely dipped, and inventory is very tight. In late 2008, it was easy to convince my DH that waiting was the right move because things looked like they were getting better (for us bears) rather quickly. Then, all the manipulations took place, and they did manage to put a floor under prices.
At this point, we might actually be losing money over the long-term because we’ve paid about $150K on rent so far, and with the recent market strength, prices are maybe down $100K…maybe. Though we’ve saved some on maintenance costs, etc.; with these very low interest rates, the rent/own ratio is pretty close (after tax deductions, etc.) if one factors in a $150K down payment. The PTB are making sure we **all** take the hit for the FBs.
Wow! I didn’t realize there were still areas in CA that hadn’t moved much.
After years of being a deflationist, I’m beginning to really worry about inflation. This is not fun.
We are of like minds my west coast sister.
“…if one factors in a $150K down payment.”
Huh?
Before you even contemplate making a $150K down payment, carefully research what share of end-users are doing something similar. You might be surprised to learn that you would be in a minuscule minority of buyers putting such a large share of your life savings at risk.
The way to do this is to try to come up with what percent of non-investor home purchases are funded with downpayments on different ranges:
$0-$10K X1%
$10K-$20K X2%
$20K-$30K X3%
etc
I would frankly be shocked by evidence that more than 5% of San Diego County home purchases by other than deep-pocketed investors are funded with down payments in excess of $50K. And I would guess less than 1% of end-user buyers bring $150K in down payment money to the closing table.
“After years of being a deflationist, I’m beginning to really worry about inflation.”
That is where diversification into inflation hedges comes into play. A house is a very lumpy deflation hedge; if you bet wrong, you lose your shirt.
The mortgage on our last home was $80k. Personally I enjoy being in striking distance of pay-off.
“The mortgage on our last home was $80k. Personally I enjoy being in striking distance of pay-off.”
Same here. Bought in 1996 — five long years after the end of the early 1990s recession — and our neighbors thought we were foolish to buy, given how much money they had already lost on their homes. Unfortunately, buying at the right time in California tends to breed resentment among your new neighbors who bought at the wrong time.
Yeah we made a very sizable lump of cash on our first home in 2.5 years. The previous owners made nothing in 13. Unfortunately they only moved next door and refused to come over and say goodbye when we left. I don’t know if I blame them. They put a lot of money into that home. We put in an Anderson slider and moved a burning bush to a better site.
One thing I would like to point out about the “lumpy” deflation hedge of housing, our $250k housing is a lot less lumpy than your $600k CA housing. : )
“…our $250k housing is a lot less lumpy than your $600k CA housing…”
And, I am guessing, a lot less inflated…
Posted a reply that’s in purgatory right now.
Some days I feel smart waiting. Other days I feel like i’m wasting time.
Yes, I totally understand where you’re coming from.
After years of being a deflationist, I’m beginning to really worry about inflation. This is not fun.
Agreed… it stinks.
We’ve waited, saved, been honest, and understood the economic fundamentals. Our reward has been lies, manipulation, printing of funny-money, and eventual inflation in everything but salaries. Anything to prevent honesty from returning to the housing market - argh!
Hear hear!
Wife and I have been in a crummy neightborhood in a tiny apartment for three years. We’ve been “waiting” for home prices to drop.
The problem is, we’re not laying roots; we’re not getting involved in the community; we’re not getting involved at all! We are waiting for home prices to drop so we can move to another town where we will “start our lives”.
It’s been an insidious, next, year next spring…when the stimulus ends…when the fed stops buying mbs…I can’t take the waiting anymore.
‘we’re not laying roots; we’re not getting involved in the community; we’re not getting involved at all…’
Huh?
‘I can’t take the waiting anymore’
Personally, I’ve never cared if or when someone buys a house. Go for it, but don’t be too surprised if I end up posting your tale of woe.
BWHAHAHAHAHA!
Ben’s Housing Collapse Tales of Woe Blog
“we’re not laying roots; we’re not getting involved in the community; we’re not getting involved at all…’”
What does renting versus owning have to do with getting involved in ones community or laying roots????.
Judging from the increasing lack of curb sweeping, leaf raking, and snow shoveling I’ve obersved in front of so many houses in recent years - I’d say that many houseowners don’t get “involved” in their community as well.
Why all the hate for Asparagus’s post?
Clearly one of the reasons why people come to this blog is because they are waiting for the madness to end. If they are renters then they most likely be interested in putting down roots when they move to a different community sooner or later.
I find Ben’s post a tad mean spirited.
“Go for it, but don’t be too surprised if I end up posting your tale of woe.
I think we’re all just expressing confusion. I didn’t get the feeling anyone was disparaging the blog. I’m certainly not. But don’t you think we’re all looking at different situations (income, wealth, inflation felt by different communities, job security) that influence our decisions individually?
‘mean spirited’
Yes, at first I was a ‘doom and gloomer.’ Then I was a ’shameful joyer.’ Mean spirited? I’ve been called a lot worse. But IMO, a lot of people who are buying right now will end up underwater. Just sayin.’
And what do we call people and organizations that have been and continue to encourage people to dive into such a financial situation?
I should have been more clear, I don’t think it’s a renting vs. buying issue. It’s a money/quality of life issue. We’ve been waiting for prices to drop, in doing so, we’ve been in a community we’re not so hot on, because it’s cheap and we can save a lot of dough. We did this to try to take advantage of the housing bust, but the speed of the bust is outlasting us.
If you are in a mindset that you’re going to be moving to a different community in 3-4 months. You make different choices.
For instance:
-I’m not going to run for school-board if I’m not going to live in this town 6 months from now…
-I’d like to commit to managing the local homeless shelter’s IT stuff, but for their sake it would be better if someone else took it on because I might live 1.5 hours from here in 4 months…
It looks like we may end up moving to our “desired town” and renting for a year. I’m OK with that, but looking back, we have lived in a state of “waiting to move” for too long.
I don’t blame the bubble, it’s our own doing, waiting for the “ideal” to become a reality is never a winning strategy. It’s best be live in the moment, make the best of what you’ve got.
Asp,
I understand what you meant and I encourage you to not allow the Housing Crime Syndicate to form reality for you. We know the reality on Main St is far worse than what they’re acknowledgin. Understand that you and I and all of us here are targets of the RE marketing machine retail outlet. We will get eviscerated by the retail machine. BJ is correct.
However, I see more and more nicer stuff(reo) coming on line and at lower prices/sq ft and it’s tough to dissuade myself from striking at it. Oddly enough, it is Mrs Exeter that is now exhibiting a level of wisdom where she says “let’s wait and see what shakes, I don’t trust it”.
Given the mess that the REIC has created with all the evidence proving they are nothing more than a cesspool of corrupt lowlifes, skepticism is your friend.
It’s not hate, but thinking that buying a house will transform one into the kind of person who will talk to their neighbors, is like buying exercise equipment in the hope that it will transform you into a person who exercises. STUFF won’t change you, and thinking that it will is a path to disappointment. Change has to come from within, and most of us don’t really change. I too have my “nice comfy chair to sit an read in,” but here I am bloviating with y’all. I have a bunch of outdoor equipment that gets more dust on it than sun.
‘we’re not laying roots; we’re not getting involved in the community; we’re not getting involved at all…’
My wife has definitively proved that it is possible to be very involved in one’s community without purchasing a home. Like Ben, I am missing the connection between owning a home and community involvement.
I would go so far as to say the opportunities for community involvement only increase without the burdens of exorbitant mortgage payments, taxes, insurance, HOA, etc plus the need to spend weekends dealing with maintenance and yardwork. Owning a home is potentially a powerful deterrent to community involvement.
I agree with edgewaterjohn’s posting above, the quality of my nieghborhood has declined significantly as the bubble has brought in quite a few “buyers” that apparently cannot afford thier mortgage and maintenance at the same time.
It all goes back to affordabillity.
What’s the average income? Are incomes going higher?
What’s the average home price?
I find it hard to believe there is an area in California, that hasn’t seen a fall, where these hard facts support purchasing.
Measton,
The LA/OC beach areas are still high. They are also paper thin amounts of land. You get 3-4 miles from the ocean and it is the hood.
Not sure about the SF bay area. Still bad from what I can gather.
San Diego and OC have some less expensive areas but again pretty far from the coast. North SD and South OC are still crazy.
Inland has taken a total dive and in many places is now cheap, but I’m not doing the drive.
Measton - there’s a lot of places in CA that have seen crazy drops -iirc Manteca is still national foreclosure capital……
But… in more expensive neighbourhoods in the bigger cities like San Francisco and Los Angeles, prices have not dropped as hard and as fast as one would assume.
If you go to one of the Westside blogs, and you’ll still see people discussing whether $1.2 or $1.4 million is a reasonable price for a full lot plus teardown north of Montana Blvd. I kid you not.
Personally, and just this morning, I noticed a new listing on ZipRealty for a 1/1 house on a 3500 sq ft lot just down the hill from me, here in Topanga - initial asking price $747K.
Seems like people have lost all sense of urgency (or embarassment) if thier property sits on the MLS for 100+ days. Because after all, the sellers can always rent, and wait for the market to come back next year…
Be ‘contrarian’ at your own risk when discussing prices in Santa Monica…. they’ll howl with derision at the idea that thier little piece of paradise isn’t immune from the rest of the world…
Unfortunately, the flat/minutely lower asking prices seem to back them up, at least for now.
I live in an apartment complex and I helped shovel out four people’s cars yesterday. I avoid being too noisy, and am careful to use the exhaust fan with the food smells. I’m right now figuring out what charities I’m going to be contributing to, and how much.
I do appreciate that some enjoy some feeling of “laying down roots” when you buy a house, but you can be a good citizen no matter what your living situation.
BTW, with this new apartment I’m in, I’m saving 215 bucks a month versus my old place.
Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-21 09:05:03
It’s not hate, but thinking that buying a house will transform one into the kind of person who will talk to their neighbors, is like buying exercise equipment in the hope that it will transform you into a person who exercises. STUFF won’t change you, and thinking that it will is a path to disappointment. Change has to come from within, and most of us don’t really change. I too have my “nice comfy chair to sit an read in,” but here I am bloviating with y’all. I have a bunch of outdoor equipment that gets more dust on it than sun.
—————————————————-
Wise men and women will take note of this. Fools will ignore.
“I find Ben’s post a tad mean spirited.”
UHS-speak: Anyone who questions the reasons to buy a home rather than to rent is a tad mean spirited.
hehhehhheh….. Ben… you’re a meanie!
Wife and I have been renting since 2005. We almost took the plunge this year on a couple of different homes. We would go home and discuss the ups and downs and it always came back to two things:
1) No matter what the REIC says, we just have a gut feeling that prices will continue to fall for some time and that homes are still too expensive as it relates to median income.
2) Fear. Fear that we are not out of this recession. Fear of potential job loss. Fear of being stuck with a house that will be as illiquid as most new cars the day after we buy it.
The best time to buy will be when nobody is talking about housing and when you have more than five minutes to think about the purchase.
“I don’t blame the bubble, it’s our own doing, waiting for the “ideal” to become a reality is never a winning strategy. It’s best be live in the moment, make the best of what you’ve got.”
I sympathize with your situation, though I don’t feel you should blame yourself. BLAME THE BUBBLE!!! And the idiots who created it and still support it while denying it.
This isn’t a case of not buying a big-screen TV for 5 years because you wanted to save $50 on shipping or something; this is you wisely nothing wanting to destroy yourself financially. Too many people “lived in the moment” and helped create this mess. While the current situation is very frustrating (I’m another renter stuck waiting for the Maryland Bubble to deflate), don’t blame yourself. That’s what they want: guilt to be shifted away from the Bubble-Blowers and for the last folks like us to get on the wagon and into debt over our heads.
Good luck!
CarrieAnn,
If you feel you can afford to purchase a home (not simply a house,) outright without taking out a mortgage, then maybe go for it. When it loses “value” it won’t matter to you because its value to you is a constant, I.E. what you paid for it. The intrinsic values you mention are commensurate with the lost opportunity costs on the money you spent.
Look at it like buying a (really, really expensive,) new car off the lot. You have to weigh the quality of life issues with the automatic depreciation.
Then listen to Ben.
CA Renter,
If you’re observations are accurate, we are still years away from reality…. at least in CA.
I meant your……grrrr.
“If you’re observations are accurate, we are still years away from reality…. at least in CA.”
It is so, since the same market manipulation that started all this mess by MR. GREENSPAN is continuing now. Only this time Bernanke is using our tax money(TARP) to manipulate the market. I wonder if there is a law against it. I don’t understand why we do have Security and Exchange commission for. Isn’t it a fraud to play with the market?
All the best to you and yours as well, CA Renter, and good luck with the fishing in 2010!
So far as the SD real estate market is concerned, I see a gigantic slow-motion dead cat bounce underway, aided and abetted by “price stabilization” measures such as federal loan guarantees, super-low interest rates, Fed MBS purchases and the extention of Dough4Dumps. The stabilization measures have been announced as temporary, and a big question, IMHO, is whether these announcements will prove fraudulent, er, I mean, false.
At any rate, with the economic recovery underway, the Fed will soon face a new conundrum over whether to take away the low-rates punch bowl and to unwind its emergency asset (e.g. MBS) purchases, or to keep the hyperstimulus in place and face the prospect of “higher than expected” inflation going forward. Any move to withdraw stimulus could summarily end the dead cat bounce, wiping out another pool of specuvestors and sending housing prices towards their true bottom in this cycle. Whatever happens will be interesting, indeed!!!
What I see is a continued deterioration in prices which is not evidenced by the median, but rather price per square foot. Liar loans are, by and large, gone which, in and of itself, will prevent any return to bubble heights and actually facilitate lower future prices. The next several months data should reflect all of this. It’s a slow grind, but nothing’s stopping this locomotive called reality.
“What I see is a continued deterioration in prices which is not evidenced by the median, but rather price per square foot.”
Exactly. This is a case where the standing wave phenomena of white water may provide a useful analogy. One can have a median sale price that is changing little over time, even as price per square foot is dropping, as new buyers will take advantage of the opportunity to buy a larger house at the same money. Price per square foot or a repeat sales index (like Case-Shiller/S&P) are far better measures of market conditions than the UHS’ quick-and-dirty median sales price statistic. Even so, if banks are reporting the outstanding principle mortgage balance on the homes they take back as sales prices and data services are treating these as sales in their index or average calculations rather than kicking them out, a biased picture will emerge.
I fooled around and fell in love….
Folks, I have the same sentiments as many of you in waiting for the market to bottom out. I do have some bubble money in my bank account and my wife has been very patient throughout all of this. I do look like an absolute genius at the moment for my timing of selling and renting.
All that said, there is the bank-owned house with property that I posted a few days ago that my wife and I are very interested in. Why? This house is in the area we want to live. Our kids don’t change schools or friends since it is less than a 1/2 mile away from where we live now. We know several of the neighbors and most purchased their homes in 2000 or earlier in the area.
I have looked at homes in the country, but I don’t want to drive 20 miles round trip to drop my kids off at their practices or to go to the store.
But Ben’s words do haunt me - I really don’t want to be the next FB people are reading about and chuckling over here at the blog. Ben’s comments are not being mean-spirited, he is just giving a stern warning for those of us who are considering buying right now.
Buy the dips! Buy the DIPS!!!!!!
Sorry, too much Bloomberg this morning…
AZ,
If you can easily afford the place, and you can see yourselves living there for the rest of your lives, it just might be the smartest thing you do. I’m assuming there has already been a significant drop from its peak-level prices?
At this point, there is no telling what will happen, and there is the very real possibility that our dollars will continue to lose value by the day. I don’t know if this “inflation fear” is being foisted on us intentionally, but if not, buying that house might be the best thing you can do.
Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck!
CA Renter,
Thank you for the kind words. I will detail my journey in tomorrows bits buckets.
AZ
Looking forward to it.
The market sounds like it is ready for the next leg down on the national level. Perhaps it is different in San Diego?
* The Wall Street Journal
* AHEAD OF THE TAPE
* DECEMBER 21, 2009, 9:28 P.M. ET
Housing Is Shaky With U.S. Aid. Without It?
* By MARK GONGLOFF
…
Other reports are expected to be less encouraging. Mortgage applications for home purchases are down 21% since the first week in October and nearly 16% from a year ago. The Mortgage Bankers Association updates applications data on Wednesday.
The Census Bureau reports November new-home sales data on Wednesday. Economists estimate new homes sold at an annualized pace of 425,000 units—up 9% from a year ago, but less than a third of the pace at the housing-market peak.
New homes, which are often more expensive than preowned homes, have had to compete with resales bolstered by “distressed” sales, such as foreclosures, which made up 30% of existing sales in October, according to the NAR.
While offering bargains to first-time buyers, distressed properties have kept existing-home prices down 7% from a year ago.
There are roughly 1.7 million homes headed for foreclosure in the months ahead, according to an estimate released last week by research firm First American CoreLogic, representing about 3.3 months’ worth of sales—and more bargains that will keep downward pressure on prices.
The tax credit is set to expire in April, and the Federal Reserve is due to end its mortgage purchases, which have helped keep rates low, in March. Rates will likely stay fairly low even after the Fed program ends. Along with low prices, that offers reasons for optimism on housing.
But it is also realistic to brace for more price declines, even with the government pushing in the other direction.
Do you think the housing market will come back after the Souper Bowl?
And if so, in which year?
Oh absolutely, probably in 2010.
Wait… did you mean “come back” as in up?
I love this day! Happy Solstice!!
Every night until midsummer will now be a teeny bit shorter, and the days a teeny bit longer.
This fact cheers me up no end in the depths of winter.
I’m more convinced of the tilt in the rotational axis of the earth than I am of the birthdate of the baby jeebus.
Brighter, sunnier days await, replete with green shoots of economic recovery!
Eeyore: “Oh great, looks like Mr. Bear will be visiting again this holiday season…I’d better gather some more turnips & beets…”
Roasted beet salad for me, please, Mr Eeyore…
I don’t know what happened to my post ,put I think I pressed a wrong bottom before I finished the post .
Reminds me of a John Wayne line, when he spoke of some grim event coming, “sure as the turnin’ of the Earth.” Something will come down the pike in housing, but it’s hard to be optimistic at the moment, I’ll admit with those who’ve been posting their doubts. Knuckled under and signed up for realtytrac and am scanning the horizon for REOs. But none in Forest Hills at the moment …
Whereas there is no doubt in the Baby Jesus’ mind as to the validity of your birthdate.
Wow pullet…you’re EZ make happy.
I just want to win the Powerball !
Comment by speedingpullet
2009-12-21 12:15:33
I love this day! Happy Solstice!!
Every night until midsummer will now be a teeny bit shorter, and the days a teeny bit longer.
This fact cheers me up no end in the depths of winter.
———————
Happy Solstice!
Yes, it is a happy day, indeed, for those of us who are greatly affected by the short days. The least we could do would be to leave the time at Daylight Savings Time. It’s a shame they make the days shorter than they already would be naturally.
If we go buy the example of the Savings & Loan disaster, it should take a few years.
However, the only government intervention back then was to create the Resolution Trust Company to buy up all the bad RE and auction it off. I think there was some restructuring of Fannie Mae, but I don’t remember what that was.
This time they are actively trying to prop up RE prices. Not that it seems to be working.
However, the current situation is so similar it’s scary:
From Wikipedia
The damage to S&L operations led Congress to act, passing a bill in September 1981 allowing S&Ls to sell their mortgage loans and use the cash generated to seek better returns;[citation needed]http://www.fdic.gov/bank/Historical/s&l/ the losses created by the sales were to be amortized over the life of the loan, and any losses could also be offset against taxes paid over the preceding 10 years. This all made S&Ls eager to sell their loans. The buyers—major Wall Street firms—were quick to take advantage of the S&Ls’ lack of expertise, buying at 60%-90% of value and then transforming the loans by bundling them as, effectively, government-backed bonds (by virtue of Ginnie Mae, Freddie Mac, or Fannie Mae guarantees). S&Ls were one group buying these bonds, holding $150 billion by 1986, and being charged substantial fees for the transactions.
Dec 15 2009, 10:42 am by Daniel Indiviglio
Was Too Big To Fail Really The Problem?
…
I have trouble answering this question in the affirmative. Let’s say that all of the banks who received bailout money had been able to fail. Well, um, we’d have very, very few banks left — and zero investment banks. Citi, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan and probably over a hundred more regional banks would be gone. So would some finance companies like Capital One and American Express. All of these institutions received bailout money.
…
The trouble is that this writer is dumber than a board (or at least he appears to be from this article). Hence cannot even envision a world where investment banks are smaller, more competitive, and less of a threat to the global economy if they blow up than members of Wall Street’s Megabank, Inc cartel. Bankmail needs to be made a crime so that too-big-to-fail Megabanks can no longer fleece American taxpayers with their collapse-now/collect-bailouts-soon business plans. Perhaps the Congressional auditors could check with the Fed whether their bank regulators have considered the possibility that too-big-to-fail bailouts are part of Megabank, Inc’s business plan?
Oh, they get fooled by the fact that all the super leverage created by these banks just caused prices to universally rise.
I guess we could have arguments on velocity but again its largely inflationary.
Bankmail
That is a great term
I invented it right here on the HBB. Please post if you spot it in the MSM.
Unfortunately, bankmail already is in use with another definition.
So how about bailmail or bailoutmail?
bankmail
You know that one will get picked up!
* The Wall Street Journal
* DECEMBER 21, 2009, 12:30 A.M. ET
FOCUS: Fears Of Moody’s Downgrade Weigh On Greek Markets
(This story was originally published Friday)
By Alkman Granitsas
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
ATHENS (Dow Jones)–Fears of another ratings downgrade, this time by Moody’s Investors Service, are weighing on Greek financial markets even as the government scrambles to convince investors of its plan to lift the country out of its debt crisis.
A downgrade by Moody’s, considered the most august of the three major ratings agencies, seems all but inevitable following a visit by agency representatives to Greece earlier this week, analysts say. On Oct. 29, Moody’s announced that it was considering downgrading Greece’s A1 credit rating amid concerns about the country’s deteriorating fiscal position.
A fresh announcement could come at any time in the next few weeks and after similar moves by rivals Fitch and Standard and Poor’s this month, both of which cut Greece’s sovereign debt rating to BBB+ from A-.
“Moody’s has a much higher rating (on Greece) than the others and it has been a while since they have downgraded us,” Finance Minister George Papaconstantinou said at a news conference Friday. “And it has said that it will make a decision within the next few weeks.”
That will put further pressure on Papaconstantinou who spent this week crisscrossing Europe to reassure other governments, investors and the press that Greece will do whatever it takes to rein in its deficits.
…
The Greek story is all over Euronews every morning. I’d laugh if Spain defaults before Greece.
BTW, they now refer to Portugal/Ireland/Greece/Spain as the “PIGS”. If you add in Italy you’ll see it as “PIIGS”.
Ireland…
What happened to the Celtic Tiger?
It got housing bubble flu, which is much more lethal than the bird flu.
Why does anyone pay attention to what Moody says? The rating agency that missed by a mile what was happening here in the U.S.
Editorial: California’s long-term debt costs are growing at alarming rate
MediaNews editorial
Posted: 12/20/2009 12:01:00 AM PST
THERE WAS A time when nearly 60 percent of the budget for capital projects in California came from the general fund and special funds. But in recent decades, the state has looked mostly to general obligation bonds to finance large infrastructure investments.
Fortunately, the payments on servicing the bonds were a small percentage of the general fund. In the 1980s, debt service was less than 2 percent of general fund revenues and only about 1 percent in the first half of that decade.
In the 1990s, the debt service ratio (the ratio of annual general fund debt-service costs to annual general fund revenues and transfers) rose to 5.4 percent. It dropped back to 3 percent in fiscal year 2002-03, a level that was acceptable to bond-rating agencies and investors.
But in the last few years, bonded indebtedness has skyrocketed, while general revenues stalled. As a result, California’s now has a record 6.7 percent debt-service ratio, one that is above the 6 percent level that concerns investors. It is also one reason why this state has the lowest bond rating in the nation.
The lower bond rating means that California’s general obligation bonds, backed by the state’s taxpayers, are more difficult to sell. This year, the state has been forced to increase bond interest payments from an anticipated 3 percent to a more costly 4 percent, and that is with nearly zero inflation rates.
…
how’s that stem cell research coming?
exactly. what a scam that was.
Ugh! What really gets to me is that we’ve become a “scam economy”. Don’t get me wrong, scammers have always been with us, but now it seems to be a way of life in the US. Work an honest job and you will be poor (OK , I exagerate, but it does feel like the direction we are headed).
The internet makes it way easier to perpetuate a scam.
At the very first the internet was considerede a scam.
Too early to say, IMHO. Lots of basic research programs might look to outsiders like scams, right up until the time of the next great technological leap.
Of course, but I just think it was one more euphoric splurge at the height of the bubble.
It all looks foolish until it doesn’t. As a California taxpayer, I do not mind funding basic research, especially if funneled through the UC system. We have had so many large contributions that have been commercialized in state that the gains have offset the investments. I do not mind funding basic research because it is an investment that many times pays off with productivity and something to sell to the rest of the world.
i hear what you are staying, but that is a federal mandate, not a state mandate.
Depends on what constitutes research.
A year or so ago the local newspaper was crowing about a WSU anthropoligy prof that got a $1million grant to study the lifestyle of the snowbirds (people that winter AZ, not real birds). I think I could write a white paper on that for a lot less than a million. There are literally thousands of these projects funded every year, writting reports that no one reads.
Montana:
This is what public money SHOULD be spent on, research, exploration using the top 1/10 of 1% of the minds in this country to full potential
Stem cell, Nasa, human robotics,, rare diseases, DNA research, paying for all prisoners DNA tests…aka the Innocence project.. this is cheap stuff compared to giving the masses more food stamps.
federal govt, not (broke) states
California’s state government can play the TBTF threat card, too:
State defaulting on debts? Sadly, it’s up for debate
* Posted December 20, 2009 at 10:44 p.m.
It’s the holiday season and we’re feeling merry. We will optimistically predict that California will not default on its bonds in the coming year.
But it’s a grim sign of just how low our state has fallen that academic economists are actually debating the question.
…
Funny item on our local tv news station poll:
What stories from last year were you most sick of hearing about?
With all the comments of Tiger Woods, Palin, etc, 7% actually were sick of hearing about the state budget woes. I got a feeling they ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
I think TBTF only counts if you contribute to campaigns and can offer lucrative managegment and lobbying jobs when the political job ends.
The revolving door continues to revolve…
Posted this late yesterday, and re-posting here.
—————————
Comment by CA renter
2009-12-20 18:19:29
Neel now works for PIMCO (surprise, surprise)…
In addition to hiring a top equity team, we have also recognized the need for an experienced person to work closely with PIMCO’s Executive Committee to lead our entry into this and other new businesses over time. Accordingly, Neel Kashkari is joining us on December 14 to lead new investment initiatives. Neel will be based in our Newport Beach office.
…All these steps are part of PIMCO’s evolution over the last decade that has already taken us beyond being solely focused on core fixed income. By adding active equities to the range of solutions PIMCO provides, our primary aim remains the same as it as been throughout PIMCO’s history: to serve as a trusted advisor to our clients around the world. Importantly, this has not, nor will it distract or detract us from our ongoing management of our fixed income products. It’s an evolutionary process-not a revolutionary event-that has been driven by the needs of our clients, the entrepreneurship of our colleagues, and the robustness of our investment process and platform.
http://dealbreaker.com/2009/12/pimco-hires-neel-kashkari.php
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I included that second paragraph because it tells me that the “big dollar” fixed-income guys are seeing inflation in the future, IMHO. This is what I’m referring to WRT the fixed-income investors being forced further out onto the risk curve because of the ultra-low interest rate environment.
Clever move! Get someone with TARP experience who knows exactly where all the toxic assets are buried, and has the Washington experience necessary to dig them up as well. Perhaps Neel can become a future Treasury Secretary after he gains private investing experiencing at PimpCO.
China exporting cheap labor
Ahh, I love the smell of globalization in the morning.
I love the smell of globalization in the morning. Soon China will globalize organ transplants. Take a low-cost trip to the Middle Kingdom & return with newer, better organs.
Is this what’s in store? A seething mass of humanity on the move all over the planet, clashing over limited resources. LOL, South America is embracing China in a big way. Wait’ll China starts populating their land mass. Then illegal immigration won’t seem like such a great idea.
Wait’ll China starts populating their land mass.
There is this huge land mass just north of the Black Dragon River, whose current occupants seem to be more interested in vodka than in replacing themselves. I suspect China will take a hike north (when the opportunity presents itself) before trying to ship out large numbers of its people.
Agree. Shipping costs for raw materials are much lower, and you can’t divert water to China from South America or Africa.
That may be, but China is making inroads into South America. It’s been pretty well entrenched in Cuba for quite a while. From what I’m reading, Chavez has embraced China with open arms and Lula was having a little confab with Wen Jiabao at Copenhagen when Barry barged in uninvited. I’m pretty sure the confab had little to do with climate change, either. Brazil has some major resources.
No doubt China has designs on Russia, but it will go anywhere it is welcome and South America is a nice big land mass in which to spread its population.
You think when earth-like planets get together, they talk about fellow planets that fell to the planet-killing disease known as Humanity?
“You think when earth-like planets get together, they talk about fellow planets that fell to the planet-killing disease known as Humanity?”
No, because there will be no planet-killing, only and ebb and flow of conditions that favor certain traits. At some point we will be extinct like nearly every thing that has at one time or another lived here, and for reasons we cannot yet predict or imagine.
Amen Muggy.
The average lifespan of a discrete mammalian species is around 5 million years.
Which gives us about 4 million plus years to get it right….or not.
I can’t help but feel sympathy for the workers, living in abysmal conditions with the prospects of getting taken back to the slave masters. That after being attacked where ever they are temporarily stored.
Really, would use living wages, environmental concerns and worker safety to help push back on China in trade issues.
Let the race to the bottom enter its next leg.
Er — haven’t they been exporting cheap labor to the U.S. since 1850 or before?
The Chinese have been migrating around the world for centuries. They are good workers and usually successful businessmen.
Investors cash out of money funds in droves.
BILLIONS POUR INTO BOND FUNDS IN 2009 ~ USA TODAY
Investors are yanking money out of money funds and moving to bond funds — but some are just cashing out.
Investors pulled a net $490 billion from money funds this year through October, according to the Investment Company Institute, the funds’ trade group. A record-shattering $313 billion went to bond funds. And $1.9 billion fled stock funds.
“More money is flowing out of money funds than is going into bond funds — something that’s only happened twice in 26 years,” says Vincent Deluard, strategist at TrimTabs.com, which tracks fund flows. “It shows how deep the recession is: They may be taking money out to pay the bills or the mortgage.”
Normally, investors chase after stocks during periods of red-hot returns, and this year has produced rip-snorting returns for many stock funds. The average stock fund has soared 27.4% this year, according to Lipper, which tracks the funds. And 36 funds have soared 100% or more in 2009, led by the tiny Oceanstone fund, up 260%.
But investors aren’t chasing hot returns. And since the end of October, money fund assets have fallen an estimated $176 billion, the ICI says. An estimated $9.4 billion has fled stock funds. And $50 billion has poured into bond funds.
Some investors are probably leaving money funds because yields are tiny: The average money fund yields just 0.03%, according to iMoneyNet, which tracks the funds. Many yield zero.
It’s difficult to reconcile these exceedingly low rates with all the talk of inflation. Too many mixed signals out there, IMHO.
Normally (whatever the #&^% that is?), I would think to myself, “Self, if everyone is selling the short end of the yield curve doesn’t that drive rates up on the short end?”
Only, courtesy of Uncle Sam, I don’t see short end rates rising. And further, I have no idea what’s going to happen with the yeild curve. Not that I ever did, but at least I thought I did.
Bear in mind that (1) the Fed has always controlled the short-term end of the yield curve, by pegging the Federal Funds Rate, recently at a level near zero (ZIRP policy); (2) the Fed has recently used long-term Treasury Bond and MBS purchase to suppress interest rates at the long-term end of the yield curve. These programs layered on top of a credit drought have the effect of giving the Fed a very large measure of discretion over who gets access to credit and who gets left in the cold. So many American households and small businesses are currently shivering that they don’t have much spending power to offset deflationary forces.
The question appears to be whether they will continue these programs indefinitely, and what happens when they voluntarily decide to unwind them, or if they decide not to unwind them, what circumstances could force their hand. My guess is that the Fed is going to wait for clear signs of recovery, at which point they will try to take away the punchbowl before inflation gets out of hand (at least that is what they keep saying they plan to do!).
Many yield zero. I think the headline should have been: “Pointless investments being liquidated”
Tresho,
No - the headline should read:
“Smart Investors who pulled out of equity markets in October 2007 and have parked their cash are now Poised to take advantage of unprecedented opportunities”
Sidebar interview should read:
” Yes, they called me crazy when I locked up huge gains before the crash. They also questioned when I didn’t hop back in in March. The market would have to move up another 40% just to get back to even for equity investment levels from 2007.
Those with smart cash - not looking to simply “get back to where you were before” will benefit the most.
tresho - cash isn’t a pointless investment…properly managed, it’s the greatest point of strength…especially when dealing in an economy that is based on credit and debt. The key is when and how to deploy the cash.
“It shows how deep the recession is: They may be taking money out to pay bills or the mortgage.”
Yep. Dollars are continuing to grow scarce.
Investors are yanking money out of money funds and moving to bond funds
Just in time for interest rates to go up.
Sell low, buy high investing at its finest.
Use of virtual doctor visits expanding For $45, anyone in Texas can use NowClinic, whether or not they are insured, by visiting NowClinic.com. Doctors hold 10-minute appointments and can file prescriptions, except for controlled substances. Eventually they will be able to view patients’ medical histories if they are available. It is possible for competent physicians to make accurate diagnoses in such a manner. Real disasters are also possible. (A patient who has fainted may not tell the doctor her family then did CPR on her.) There was no mention of how such patients might afford commonly done blood tests, such as CBCs and chemical profiles. (There is at least one program that is now doing this in NE OH.) Xrays performed in the USA are now being transmitted digitally to India and interpreted by radiologists there. The next step will be outsourcing virtual doctor visits to places like India.
Lab tests for people without health insurance
Medical tourism to India and other places in Asia is already a huge industry.
It is, but that is for people who already know that they need or want a high cost procedure of some kind. This is a potetial transfer of much lower value visits.
I would not want to have or be in the process of incurring $300K of student loans for a medical degree right now.
Planet Hospital is a medical tourism firm in Calabasas, So. Ca. (west San Fernando Valley), speaking of the option.
http://www.planethospital.com/2009_v2/contentpage.php?pageis=about
For $45, anyone in Texas can use NowClinic, whether or not they are insured, by visiting NowClinic.com. Doctors hold 10-minute appointments
$45.00 x 6 (1hr) = $270.00 x4 (hrs) = $1080.00
Might be a good @ home part-time job…for someone without “real” credentials.
Might be a good @ home part-time job…for someone without “real” credentials. I don’t see fake credentials being a problem here, any more than fake banking sites which AFAIK haven’t been much of a problem. This is one part of economic activity where federal & state regulations seem to work. Michael J. Swango was an exception to that.
I’m afraid of anything as legitimate as “health decisions” being made via the internet as long a phishing exists…but that’s just me.
Hwy50ina49Dodge
I’m with you. I find most triage nurses useless, let alone virtual health opinions.
For $45, anyone in Texas can use NowClinic, whether or not they are insured, by visiting NowClinic.com.
Is it possible, just possible, that grotesquely over-inflated medical costs represent a bubble which would burst on its own without government intervention?
No. The bubble is caused BY the HMOs and hospital administrations, not the government nor lawsuits.
+1
Plumbing of Supervolcano Under Yellowstone Exposed This might be the cure for Global Warming.
Fascinating article. I didn’t see it anywhere in the article but you might know,
What is the time frame for the next eruption? Anytime in the next 10,00 years?
What is the time frame for the next eruption? Totally unknown, and I wouldn’t believe a prediction anyway. This world is a dangerous place, always has been, & somehow we’ve survived by the skin of our teeth.
Seems to me I saw a History Channel documetary about Yellowstone and it said the eruption is overdue. They occur about every 600,000 years and the last was 640,000 years ago.
A Yellowstone super-eruption would stiffle the economic recovery, big time.
Yes. Though that being said - the nature of this cauldron is such that we’d know of an eruption years in advance - possibly decades. It would thus actually be quite an interesting psychological experiment - what would we do if we knew far ahead of time of a such a cataclysmic event?
The eruption probably wouldn’t cause the end of man, but certainly would wreak quite a bit of destruction on the world economy as you say, particularly the U.S.
They (we) knew of Mt. St. Helens’ eruption months in advance - they just didn’t know the exact date, or how bad it would be. We knew it was coming though.
Thanks so much for the link! I like earth science-geology kinds of things, especially knowing the geology of a place I have hiked/backpacked in, or am planning to go!
What are some of you here’s predictions? I heard that the FHA will disconinue purchasing MBS’s in 2010, and that they were the only buyers left. Anyone else hear that?
If true, who will continue to buy mortgage backed securities, and if MBS’s disappear as an instrument, will qualified buyer(s) also disappear en masse in 2010.
What effect would this have on things like mortgage rates, other underwriting standards, and prices if banks start having to keep their loans “in house”? Will 30%DTI maximum for a real estate loan be the new normal loan leverage limit, as opposed to the 50% it can be now?
What if down payment requirements get tough, rather than just the 3.5% down, or gasp, 5% down? Not to mention homebuyer credits that allow funding of down payments, and cash back at closing from sellers that helps pay for funding, what if that stuff goes? Or even if reserve requirements are increased to historic metrics.
Where will buyers come from? What will keep current homedebtors from foreclosing in a steady stream, what with low but not rising quickly median incomes that were leveraged recklessly?
Any takers? Happy Holidays, I wish I woulda run into this place sooner, so I too could a been a happy renter.
“What if down payment requirements get tough, rather than just the 3.5% down, or gasp, 5% down?”
Armageddon.
That’s the simply, undeniable fact, if we went back to 20% down, home prices would fall 50% overnight. However, given the current political climate, I think there’s about 0% possibility of this happening for the next 10+ years. It would be a god-sent to people like me, but, frankly, IMHO, the political motive to keep the requirements low (and therefore prices high) is too overwhelming.
“…the political motive to keep the requirements low (and therefore prices high) is too overwhelming.)”
So’s the economic motive. Falling RE prices translate to more balance sheet destruction for the financials and more walk-away incentives to FBs.
Absolutely, I completely agree; there’s certainly a few motives pushing to keep RE prices high. Saving the banks is probably the number 1 reason that we won’t see prices allowed to go down another 50% from current levels; even though, given the market forces, they probably should.
What about the fact that MBS are still a vehicle used by funders to mitigate risk. Would not the elimination of these instruments would force banks to loan in house and not sell their loans. To this day, neither is the borrower asked for skin in the game. Might banks be changing this come 2010? cuz now its pulse+ fico + job(no savings required), and 60k per year families can be approved for $2500 per month, at 50% DTI, a $300,000 house. 30k per year families, median folks, can buy a $150,000 house. What is currently putting downward pressure on price to fall farther, unless some of the aforementioned changes happen with the new year.
With incentives, cash back deals, and the lender of last resort(FHA) keeping the party going, spiking the punchbowl in the most outrageous party of all time. NO COVER CHARGE means the buyers will go to another party if the one they are at is a drag.
SO if buyers of the MBS disappear, wont this force armegeddon simply because the if banks know that they can no longer sail their mortgages, tied together like a raft, down the river. If it sinks downstream–so what!!
If the bank holds the loan, as a result, real change could happen, even in the next few weeks.
I contend the 9-11 terrorist attack played a part in this in because reckless risk taking did not seem that big a concern in this new atmosphere of unpredictable global upheaval and the potential for the most catastrophic events imaginable to occur on a moment’s notice
If banks can no longer make money from originating loans and selling them, they will have to make money by lending. However, presumably, they already do make some money by lending (they do have some capital, after all), so the mix of loan types would change toward residential lending and away from whatever lending they are doing now.
This volume cannot begin to cover the home loans being given out now. Not even substantial chunk of it.
What will have to happen is a complete transformation of the securitized mortgage market. Instead of buying anything that has a house securing it (2006) or anything that has Fannie/Freddie/FHA behind it (2009), the securitizers will have to demand that actual due diligence be done on the loans in the pool, at least to check on the size of the downpayment and perhaps also the source of the downpayment and the amount of borrower income and confirmation that the terms are not exploding, etc. This will vastly slow down the process, require human beings to do the work (outsourced, natch) and still not replace the volume of money that was previously available.
Want a buisness idea? Database software to analyze the terms of a securitized pool of mortgages and training Indians to populate the database by reading the actual paperwork. You heard it here.
For some reason my posts about the Savings & Loan and the current parallels are not posting.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but doesn’t the FHA only guarantee loans, not purchase them?
The purchasers would be investors and big banks. The guarantee is effectively another handout when you assume a large percentage of these loans will go bad and FHA money will be used to pay off the investors.
I think you are right, but the effect is the same. If they stop insuring the 3.5% down loans and no one wants to buy the loans without FHA insurance, then the loans won’t be made on those terms.
I may be ignorant as to who is buying MBS, but I was under the belief that there was only one buyer of MBS left, and that buyer would be stopping their purchasing at the beginning of next year. Maybe not the FHA, but some other federal entity is buying MBS’s?? And will soon quit, therefore leaving banks to keep their own loans, which may add some scrutiny to the underwriting process.
Hopefully this would help in some way, I was wondering what effects this could have on home financing underwriting standards, down payment requirements. Due diligence is overdue, but will it remove buyers, lower prices ??? I have no clue, but was hoping for some fortune telling from you all esteemed members of the best darned blog I ever seen!
That would be the Federal Reserve. Currently buying $1.25T of MBS, scheduled to end next spring I believe.
I think the future holds a tight money market in which it’s harder to get a loan and you have to put more down ,(with the rates higher .) The government is backing most of the loans made now , Perhaps they will need viable insurance on all loans in the future and no doubt the customer will be charged for it ,(but it can’t be a AIG type of insurance in which it was backed by nothing like in the credit default markets ). Again, CDS’s gave a false sense of security for the
loan investors .
Use to be if a person put less than 20% down they usually had
some form of PMI like insurance on the loan . This was another factor that kept the secondary market stable for years . Usually private Insurance Companies that underwrite loans don’t allow faulty underwriting .
So ,my guess is that in order to get funds for lending in the future after the gov. backs off ,they will need to offer a risk free investment in a similar manner and the costs will be passed on to the borrowers .
The FED is currently the BUYER of MBS. They are supposed to stop in spring 2010. However, most people (myself included) believe that there is very little chance the FED will effectively make good on its promise.
IMO, they will stop buying MBS for a while and will be forced to either jump back on or to guarantee the MBS in some way, similar to the FHA guarantees.
Other people think the FED will make good on its promise and the effect will be a rise in the mortgage rates of additional 35 base points above 10 year treasuries.
IMO, how the market reacts on the expiration of the MBS purchases by the FED and what will the FED do to “mitigate” an adverse market reaction to such event will be crucial to the speed of the housing market correction. I do hope the FED will be overconfident of the housing market recovery and let the market to be on its own for a while, which would kick in another sharp leg down.
From 1981: (wikipedia)
The buyers—major Wall Street firms—were quick to take advantage of the S&Ls’ lack of expertise, (in selling mortgage loans. ed.) buying at 60%-90% of value and then transforming the loans by bundling them as, effectively, government-backed bonds (by virtue of Ginnie Mae, Freddie Mac, or Fannie Mae guarantees). S&Ls were one group buying these bonds, holding $150 billion by 1986, and being charged substantial fees for the transactions.
Sound familiar?
Calling on Leakers to Help Document Local Misdeeds It was a simple idea: use the power and elusiveness of the Internet to publish secret documents that someone, somewhere thought should be made public. And dare the government, any government, to shut you down. Would this be of use in uncovering / publicizing shadow inventory?
What happened to Paladin?
Paladin resurfaced recently. Still brandishing his sword here.
As best as I can tell that page looks the same as it did approximately 3-4 years ago. What’s different?
Wife talked to a neighbor who said they got a letter from the home owners association that said the monthly fees were going up. The letter said that 15% of the 160 houses were in foreclosure. RealtyTrac shows there are 2. That is 20+ in the shadow.
Thanks Jeff. Less than 10% of foreclosures showing up. Good info.
Yes, thanks for sharing that, Jeff.
Hey, Californians (especially Central Californians): How bad is it out there, really?
My spouse was just offered a very good job at Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo — a good enough job that we have to seriously consider it. Our major concern is moving farther away from family and friends, but we’re also concerned with the state of the state, cost of living, affordability, etc. (Cal Poly is a public school, but is apparently less dependent on state funding than many school in the Cal system.)
We’re somewhat familiar with LA and the Bay Area, but we don’t know much about the Central Coast.
Any thoughts?
Springfield is doing their best to outshine Sacramento, so whatever is going on in CA - it might be the same here too - only with snow.
Right — Illinois is no prize in the fiscal responsibility department, either. But Chicago and environs are a known quantity for us.
ET,
Having spent some time in CA I would say adios to Chi town. IMO being by the ocean would be totally worth what ever the costs might be.
In addition, you can watch the Cubs anywhere in the US.
Lip
ET-Chicago
San Luis Obispo is a charming town, and the students at Cal Poly are generally nice kids, not the pretenious USC type. The downtown area use to be small bookstores and mom and pop stores, but mall developers got their way.
The weather is perfect, the lifestyle is slower than L.A., and I personally love it in SLO. Lots of well to do creative types live there.
I live in Thousand Oaks (Ventura County), south of SLO.
“My spouse was just offered a very good job at Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo — a good enough job that we have to seriously consider it.”
What a completely bizarre coincidence. I may have some LA questions in the next few days. BTW, I haven’t been in Rochester for 48 hours yet, and I am about to go bananas. Getting along without family is much easier than I realized.
Are you guys going to stop at 1, or keep going? I have no advice, other than you seem to be a cultured dude, and having 2 kids pretty much guarantees you’re in bed by 9pm because each spouse is responsible for one child. My wife and I don’t mind, but my Brooklyn bud and his wife are stopping at 1 for that very reason.
I have no advice, other than you seem to be a cultured dude, and having 2 kids pretty much guarantees you’re in bed by 9pm because each spouse is responsible for one child. Have them 5 years apart & that won’t be as big a problem.
Mine were 20 months apart. Muggy its tough when they’re young like yours. You get thrown a curve ball as far as your personal life. Mine are middle schoolers and life is good. It’s awesome to take them to the theatre and watch your sq
Oh oh. What am I pushing on my keyboard that makes a post go through before I’m ready?
Anyhoo….we’ll try again. Muggy, my 2 are 20 mos apart. When they’re young it’s hard cuz you’re footloose and fancy free life comes to a screeching halt, at least if you try to be a responsible, attentive parent. I had mine later in life so I was accustomed to lots and lots of me time. But it’s only like that for a little while.
They’re older now. I’ve been able to enjoy my squirmy worm daughter sit absolutely still, mesmerized through a whole 2 hour performance at the theatre. My son has his grandfather’s advanced musical talent and we’ve enjoyed a nice exchange of commentary after the concerts. I take them to the museums and the shows and their curiosity and interest in all these areas just breathes a lot more fun into everything. I’m sure PB could offer some similar insight.
Are you guys going to stop at 1, or keep going?
We are currently of the “if it happens, it happens” school of thought. I’m not sure if I can go to bed at 9 pm, however. I could barely manage that when I was five years old.
BTW, I haven’t been in Rochester for 48 hours yet, and I am about to go bananas. Getting along without family is much easier than I realized.
(Laugh.)
ET,
If her job looks good going forward with the still looming 21 Billion $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ CA state budget, SLO is a great place…I’m assuming your going to rent…there ought to be great selections & prices. Good Luck!
San Luis Obispo is nice but expensive. The weather is mild with the rainy season being in winter and with this being El Nino, maybe a little more rainy than normal. The ocean is close with Hwy 1 not too far away. But don’t expect to sunbath like you would in SoCal during the summer…too mild for my tastes. Major airports are a ways away. You might consider housing in Arroyo Grande ( a little cheaper)
If I could find a job up in SLO I’d move there. Still a lot of uncertainty at this point but I suspect Obama will throw a lot of money at education (and that would be a less worse plan).
Nice size town that isn’t too far for quick hops to LA/SF if the mood hits you. Real close to plenty of nice outdoor activities.
Very moderate weather.
Beaches are very nice except for occasional sharks and cold water. Actually some of the beaches are amazing up there.
I’d guess it is a good place to raise your kids too.
Picked up my Civil Engineering degree at Cal Poly, SLO.
The Central Coast is a great place to live if you can afford it. The looming 5/25 ARM mortgage resets are going to hit SLO like a tsunami next spring. Commercial property defaults have already hit the area hard. My goal is to buy there in five years, and eventually retire. Fingers crossed!
Is your spouse looking to fill Warren Baker’s shoes?
Borrowers with modified loans falling into trouble
Report says homeowners whose loan payments are cut by 20 percent or more still falling behind.
WASHINGTON (AP) — Homeowners who get a substantial cut in their monthly mortgage payments still stand a good chance of falling behind again, a report by two federal regulators says.
Nearly 40 percent of homeowners who received a loan modification that reduced monthly loan payments by 20 percent or more were at least two months late again within a year, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency and the Office of Thrift Supervision said Monday.
That’s an ominous sign for the Obama administration’s plan to stem the foreclosure crisis, which was launched in March. Only about 31,000 modifications have been made permanent under that plan.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again - 31% of gross is TOO HIGH!
It is unaffordable if you want folks to even think about saving for the future. Even without saving for the future, it is too much for people with student, debt, significant transportation costs, child care costs, etc. Just too high.
It’s the rise of “Debtor Nation” - this attitude that anything but carrying the most debt you can at this moment is the way to live.
It seems to me that coincident with the rise of Debtor Nation, that wealth is being stripped away from the population and sucked into the lending industry. I suspect household net worth has probably significantly dropped as the Debtor Nation attitude has grown.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again - 31% of gross is TOO HIGH!
And I’ve said this before, and will say it again: I don’t see how you can state ANY rule of thumb, about ratio of debt service to income, which doesn’t take into account probability of losing one’s job, having to take a pay cut/ relocate etc. A big mortgage is really somewhat of a leap into the unknown even in good times.
I think there’s a base assumption of stability though that we’re talking about. The N% of gross assumes that you do have a stable job; and that if you do lose your job and/or have to move that you’ll simply sell the house, and thus the point becomes moot.
Key is the expense to income ratio.
That being said - there are myriad of other factors too. Mainly would be the ratio of your income that you would want to use for other stuff - travel, toys, dining out, kids, etc. Someone who has kids, like lots of toys, etc. may only be able to afford 15% of gross; someone who lives simply with little expenses but wants a nice house could swing 31% of gross easily I would think.
Comment by polly
2009-12-21 10:50:59
I’ve said it before and I will say it again - 31% of gross is TOO HIGH!
—————
Totally agree with this. Consider also that jobs are far less stable, and pension funds (what’s that?) are going to look very different in the future, if they exist at all.
We need to be **saving** more than ever before, and with the way they are printing money, we have to concern ourselves with the inflation boogeyman. This all leaves LESS money for housing than ever before, IMHO.
“Homeowners who get a substantial cut in their monthly mortgage payments still stand a good chance of falling behind again, a report by two federal regulators says.”
Until banks are forced to mark REO to current market, the politically motivated and completely impossible policy of “extend and pretend” will strangle the housing market and overall economy.
The bad debts must be purged from the system through the bankruptcies of the so-called “too big to fail” banks. Period. It’s either that or a Greater Depression and the official repudiation of debt via a U.S. Government strategic default.
+20 trillion, cobalt.
I had brunch w a friend yesterday. We both live downtown in Austin, but he owns an 800 sq ft condo, while I rent a 900 sq one. We love about 3 blocks
from each other. I pay about 1500 a month in rent, while he pays a 1700 mortgage, plus 250 a months in HOAs and roughly 7000 a year in taxes or roughly 600 a month. Property taxes in Texas are between 2 and 3%. His total is about 2550 a month.
He kept saying I’m throwing my money in rent, but
I see no incentive in buying when there’s such a gap between rent and a condo payment.
Riiight, so paying a thousand bucks a month more than you for the priviledge of ‘ownership’ isn’t throwing money way. At all.
Next time someone tells you you’re ‘throwing money away’ on rent, ask them if they could have your place for $1500 a month, all in.
Chances are, unless they’re totally delusional, they’ll have to admit that its unpossible.
“I had brunch w a friend yesterday.”
Did you pick up the tab?
Fed’s Evans sees U.S. economy growing 3-3.5 percent in 2010
Mon Dec 21, 2009
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Charles Evans, president of the Chicago Federal Reserve, said on Monday he expects the U.S. economy to grow 3 to 3.5 percent in 2010, but that low inflation will give the central bank room to keep monetary policy accommodative for an extended period.
Economy
Next year “will definitely be a better year” than 2009, Evans told CNBC in an interview.
However, Evans said he expects the jobless rate will edge up “a few tenths” in 2010.
Evans, a voting member of the policy-setting Federal Open Market Committee this year, said the Fed’s extended period means about three to four meetings.
“I’ve said before, that to me that seems like about three to four meetings,” Evans said.
He said inflation expectations seem well-anchored and that substantial resource slack is “diminishing the trajectory of inflation”.
GDP may go up 3-4%, but I wouldn’t consider it “growing”. If we get GDP increase it will be due to price inflation and artificial stimulus, not real economic growth, i.e. demand-driven productivity increases.
Holiday plans, celebrations, and unorganized mayhem - getting into the “cheer”!
Past-time bloggers have reported getting all tanked up pre-holiday and then getting the urge to fling an empty bottle through the TV screen.
Needless to say, this could startle the kids and annoy the spouse. Not the best way to kick off Christmas vacation.
Now, let me offer the cobaltblue alternative.
Tune in to Discovery channel and “Sunrise Earth”.
The “Augustine Volcano” episode is highly recommended.
Observe the running water, pretty flowers, and blue sky. Notice the splashing bears and flying insects? In a perfect world, we would all be friends.
Try to remember all the $$$ you saved by reading the HBB! Surely a bit of those savings could be reinvested in a good single malt scotch?
Best of the season to everyone.
Being driven barking mad — and walking away from the mortgage (PDF file)
Priest in UK advises the poor to shoplift & outrages the police
Good to see Sedition is alive and well in Blighty.
SCHWEEEEET!
If only all clergy would give the same advice.
Church of England vs. WalMart?
More than 100 line up early for up to 4,000 Census Bureau jobs in Palm Beach County
By Sonja Isger
Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Updated: 11:15 a.m. Monday, Dec. 21, 2009
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WEST PALM BEACH — The U.S. Census Bureau needs to hire about 4,000 people in Palm Beach County to help with the 2010 Census, and it’s taking applications today.
More than 100 people had already arrived at the Urban League doors in West Palm Beach by 10 a.m., when the job fair began. But they learned upon arrival that the actual test won’t be given until noon today. Those who came early, instead got a shot at a practice test similar to the official one given by the federal government.
“The test is more difficult than most people would think, especially if you’ve not taken a test recently or are not used to standardized tests like the SAT or ACT (taken for college admission),” said Kevin Bledsoe, community director of the Urban League of Palm Beach County. “You probably need at least a solid 10th grade education,” he said.
The fair is one of several being held in South Florida. There is another at the same time Wednesday at the Urban League, 1700 N. Australian Ave. in West Palm Beach. But there are other offices where the test can be taken, Census Bureau officials told a flood of callers to the Urban League offices.
Applicants should bring two forms of government-issued identification.
The jobs, which pay $14 to $15 an hour, are temporary and will likely end in early summer.
That was just fine with Jupiter resident Sharon Ventura, who waited outside the league’s door for the test to begin.
“I’m looking for a job. I’ve been downsized twice,” said Ventura, whose hours as a call center manager have been cut in half twice in the last year. “I’ve got to pay my mortgage.”
Janis Silver, 62, of Lake Worth, has been looking for a job all year. She now has a part-time job with a company that sells to manufacturers, but she said she needs another part-time job to cover the bills.
“This looked like a great opportunity,” said Silver, who took the practice test online.
Job candidates must pass an exam and a criminal background check. The exam has 28 multiple-choice questions that measure clerical, number, reading and organizational skills. The test may be taken in Spanish but the applicant must pass an English proficiency test.
Practice tests are available online at http://www.2010censusjobs.gov. You can take the test more than once.
The workers will visit residents who did not return their Census form, encourage them to fill it out and assist them, if necessary.
The Urban League offered its offices for the event in hopes of giving job seekers an easy place to find and a safe setting to take the test, Bledsoe said.
Bledsoe said he also was eager to draw minority applicants. Minorities, he said, are often undercounted and are more likely to welcome a Census counter when that counter is also a minority.
So…. About a year ago, I recounted on a HBB BB thread a conversation with my LL. I had called him to discuss the possibility of making a few improvements (paid for myself) that I was considering making to the house—things like insulation (there is none in the attic of my old rental), which he has no incentive to pay for since he doesn’t pay the utilities, and which I would have no incentive to pay for if I’m not going to be there long enough to hit a break-even point on utility savings. I was hoping that we could arrange a mutually-beneficial arrangements, where I would improve the property and he would offer a rental concession, or at a minimum a longish no-rent-increase guarantee.
Instead, at the end of the conversation, he mentioned that he was considering a rent increase in approx six months time. And my desires to invest any extra money in the house pretty much evaporated, though my desire to have the improvements did not.
So to figure out whether the rent increase was justified, I started trolling CL weekly, printing out the good comps.
Six months came and went, with no mention of a rent increase from my LL.
After a year, I finally worked up my nerve, called my LL, and described what I was seeing in the market. I told him that I thought my rent was above market, and that I was seeing similar places for a couple of hundred dollars less; some of them even looked quite a bit nicer, and had the improvements that I was considering doing to the property already done. I offered to provide him with the 150 or so good comps that I had printed out over the pas tyear. He told me he would assess the market (CL) himself and get back to me.
This morning, he dropped me an email and offered me a rent reduction of about 10%.
Now I just have to decide whether that is enough. The comps I’m seeing at that price point ARE nicer, but I do like my current house, and there is a definite hassle factor to moving… And I really like the fact that if I stay, I won’t have to vet a new LL to figure out whether he/she is an FB.
Perhaps ask for 10% + some improvements like insulation.
Negotiate from a position of strength. Assuming you have been a good tenant, the last thing the LL wants it to lose you. He will deal with at least two months of vacancy, the cost of cleaning and refirb and the unknown of the next tenant. I would offer no more than the comps you are seeing and demand the energy improvements you are asking for.
I’ve been a LL and can tell you that a good tenant is a something you don’t jeopardize (if you are smart).
Excellent news, Prime!
Thanks, CA renter!
Incredible that the stock market continues to be in la-la-land, ignoring the still-eroding economic situation. I’m talking real indicators, not the very misleading headline stuff - e.g. U3, GDP, etc.
Dept. of Labor’s unemployment stats out the other day -
- Exhaustion of benefits still skyrocketing, a new record every month. Current rate is 53.73. Previous record was 43.8 in 2003; even in the early 1980’s it only got to 40.8
- Duration of unemployment also setting new records every month - now up to 18.24 weeks; previous high in 1983 was 17.54 weeks.
And of course we all know the foreclosure stats.
I still can’t believe that GDP is up, unless we’re exporting food and other raw materials up the wazoo.
There it is again: duration, duration, duration. The duration of this event, not the depths, will take the greater toll.
To date, the majority of responses and expectations are based on the old “normal”.
Exactly, EWJ.
Federal Reserve H.3 data out. Some interesting stuff going on.
link
- Total reserves still going up very fast (left column). Excess reserves (near the middle) are skyrocketing, and just topped $1 Trillion
- Monetary base just topped $2 Trillion
- Surplus vault cash going down-down-down.
One would expect these values to return more to normal as we get into our “recovery”. Doesn’t look much like stability to me. Looks like the banks are doing more hunkering down than ever before, by far, at least since this data collection started in 1959.
I’m guessing this may have been posted earlier, but here it is again. Newsweek Magazine had a December 7th cover story entitled “How Great Powers Fall: Steep debt, slow growth and high spending kill empires - And America could be next”.
This is how empires decline. It begins with a debt explosion. It ends with an inexorable reduction in the resources available for the Army, Navy, and Air Force. Which is why voters are right to worry about America’s debt crisis. According to a recent Rasmussen report, 42 percent of Americans now say that cutting the deficit in half by the end of the president’s first term should be the administration’s most important task—significantly more than the 24 percent who see health-care reform as the No. 1 priority. But cutting the deficit in half is simply not enough. If the United States doesn’t come up soon with a credible plan to restore the federal budget to balance over the next five to 10 years, the danger is very real that a debt crisis could lead to a major weakening of American power.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/224694/page/1
Safety net for SC homeowners about to vanish
The Associated Press ~ Monday, Dec. 21, 2009
CHARLESTON, S.C. — South Carolina homeowners are in danger of losing their financial protection because state officials didn’t apply for federal money that pays for free foreclosure counseling.
The Post and Courier of Charleston reported Sunday that the decision not to apply left local officials scrambling to find money elsewhere without success.
And the state’s top counseling program is in question, putting South Carolina in a position to run out of money before even some of the hardest hit states.
“We don’t know where the next funding is coming from, and the free foreclosure counseling is in jeopardy if another round of funding (doesn’t happen),” said David Geer, executive director of Family Services Inc.
The free foreclosure help could start up again in the spring because Congress passed another $65 million for the program this month. South Carolina’s housing agency and nonprofits would have to compete for that grant money, which could trickle down to the groups as early as March.
But Family Services’ roughly $2.5 million in foreclosure help money will be gone by then.
As a result, more South Carolina homeowners will have to move through the loan modification process alone, leaving them with a worse chance of saving their home. People who receive professional counseling are 60 percent more likely to avoid foreclosure, according to the Washington, D.C.-based Urban Institute.
Looks like more and more people are going down with the ship.
Serious U.S. mortgage delinquencies up 20 percent ~ Dec 21, 2009
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Serious delinquencies among U.S. prime mortgages rose nearly 20 percent in the third quarter from the prior quarter, as the percentage of current and performing mortgages fell for the sixth consecutive quarter, banking regulators said on Monday.
The report by the Office of Comptroller of the Currency and the Office of Thrift Supervision, which are part of the Treasury Department, covered about two-thirds of all U.S. mortgages.
It found 3.6 percent of prime mortgages — those made to the most credit-worthy borrowers — were seriously delinquent in the third quarter. That was more than double the year-ago quarter and up nearly 20 percent from the 2009 second quarter.
The report defined “serious delinquencies” as those loans 60 days or more past due and loans to delinquent bankrupt borrowers.
Big U.S. banks and thrifts carried out 2.4 million home loan modifications, trial period plans or payment plans in the quarter, spurred mostly by a government plan offered by President Barack Obama, according to the report.
Most came from the government’s Home Affordable Modification Program. Mortgage servicers carried out 274,000 trial plans in the third quarter, up 240 percent from the second quarter when the plan was launched.
But only 1 percent of those had been converted to permanent modifications as of September 30, 2009, the report said.
A major cause of this disconnect is that loan servicers are finding that many borrowers who initially appear to qualify for the program do not, according to the report.
The Treasury Department has been pressuring lenders and mortgage servicers to do more to ease the harm from rising foreclosures.
Loan modifications made outside the new aid program fell in the third quarter by nearly 8 percent, the report said.
The Treasury Department has been pressuring lenders and mortgage servicers to do more to ease the harm from rising foreclosures.
Yeah those monthly “This time we really mean it!!!” emails seem to be having quite an effect.
This seems like a good place to reiterate my chart from last week, and perhaps also throw in a comment about home prices - it’s worth noting that the beginning of the last (sustained) upward trajectory in home prices started about two years *after* the delinquencies bottomed out, in 1995.
If the same thing happens again - then we are a long, long, long, long ways off from rising home prices; given that delinquencies haven’t even given a hint yet of starting a downward trajectory - let alone an actual eventual bottom.
It’s different this time….really.
The FED and the Obama administration will throw everything and the kitchen sink at falling real estate prices, economic fundamentals and budget deficits be damned.
- $8K for 1st time buyers…soon to be extended
- low, manipulated interest rates
- 3.5% down loans
- “cash-4-caulkers” with $12K credit for qualifying home improvements (not a law yet)
Not sure how this will end. The only thing that’s for sure is that it is a catastrophe for the deficit and by extension the taxpayer.
What I fail to understand is how banks are returning the TARP money while at the same time delinquencies are rising, the economy is in the crapper and unemployment is at 10+%. All I can figure is that they either weren’t bankrupt to begin with or they are playing some serious accounting games with the blessing of the FED.
“What I fail to understand is how banks are returning the TARP money while at the same time…” the toxic asset problem remains unresolved.
What I fail to understand is how banks are returning the TARP money while at the same time delinquencies are rising, the economy is in the crapper and unemployment is at 10+%. All I can figure is that they either weren’t bankrupt to begin with or they are playing some serious accounting games with the blessing of the FED.
Both.
A. TARP was forced on all big banks, whether they needed it or not. Many of them didn’t need it, due to the insane profits they had built up over the last few years, and also due to…
B. Being able to offload bad loans by selling them to the Fed; i.e. the ultimate accounting game.
Also, permission to ignore mark-to-market was given after TARP had already occurred which eased up on the pressure substantially.
Yep - that too.
A whole bunch of various tools - some new like these, and some old, e.g. QSPE’s.
TARP was forced on the banks? Any link to that besides a quote from the banks?
I seem to remember that GS is the one saying this loudest and yet they moved with incredible speed to position themselves as a bank to receive that money.
GS apparently was also a huge beneficiary of the A.I.G. bailout.
“But only 1 percent of those had been converted to permanent modifications as of September 30, 2009, the report said.”
Yep, all those liar loans and now 10% unemployment….who would have thought.
On the flip side, a friend just re-financed through B of A. Great credit and plenty of equity in the house. It still took several months for the re-fi to go through, and of course B of A collected the higher payment in the meantime.
A major cause of this disconnect is that loan servicers are finding that many borrowers who initially appear to qualify for the program do not, according to the report.
Who is more surprised, the FB, “What do they mean, document my income?” or the bank “What do you mean, the shift manager at Burger King doesn’t make 250K per year? That’s what he told us last year.”
Document income ?…who needs to document income, this is America, we have the Gubbermint…D’oh !
America’s Best Days
66% Favor Smaller Government With Fewer Services, Lower Taxes
Thursday, December 17, 2009
Sixty-six percent (66%) of U.S. voters prefer a smaller government with fewer services and lower taxes over a more active government with more services and higher taxes.
That’s the second highest finding of the year: In August at the height of the congressional town hall controversies over the health care plan, 70% felt that way.
A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 22% prefer a government with more services and higher taxes. Eleven percent (11%) aren’t sure which is best.
Eighty-eight percent (88%) of Republicans and 63% of voters not affiliated with either major party like a smaller government better. Democrats are more narrowly divided: 51% favor a smaller government, but 37% opt for a larger, more activist government.
Sixty-five percent (65%) of liberals chose a government with more services and higher taxes. Eighty-six percent (86%) of conservatives think a smaller government is better.
Sixty-two percent (62%) of all voters say tax cuts are a better way than more government spending to create jobs and fight unemployment. Only 21% say additional stimulus spending is a more effective tool.
The problem with fewer services is the NIMBY syndrome.
Most people do want services cut - just not MY services, dammit.
And of course people’s perception of what percentage of government money is spent on various things is pretty far off too.
I’m fairly interested in meeting the 14% of “conservatives” who would like more government.
I meet them all the time! There are two types of conservatives:
#1 Free Market Capitalists who want smaller government
#2 Social Conservatives who want a big, powerful government to regulate people’s personal behavior
#2 but only it it’s telling people to do what THEY want them to.
That’s why “conservatives” was in quotes, because anyone who wants a bigger government to regulate people’s personal behavior, isn’t really a conservative; at least if you define conservative to be traditional Americanism. We had far fewer laws governing behavior in the first 100 years of the U.S., and very much intentionally so.
66% Favor Smaller Government With Fewer Services, Lower Taxes
There you have it. 66% of the population are morons.
Little known fact: there are more government contractor employees than government employees. Maybe if we didn’t have most of our government controlled by people who are trying to make a profit, we might get lower taxes.
Naw, that’s just damn socialeest/commie talk!
66% of the population are morons.
Why, because they dont agree with you?
No, because of this:
Little known fact: there are more government contractor employees than government employees. Maybe if we didn’t have most of our government controlled by people who are trying to make a profit, we might get lower taxes.
Contrarian Clarity.
Trillions Of Troubles Ahead ~ Bert Dohmen
A crushing burden of debt threatens to sap America’s growth for years to come.
Not too long ago, a billion dollars in a governmental budget was a lot of money. Then we got into hundreds of billions. People understood that this was a lot, just because of all the zeros. Now, unfortunately, the number has become small: the world “trillion,” as in $1.2 trillion for health care reform, seems so tiny. But it has 12 zeroes behind it, which is so easy to forget.
If the government stays on the course it’s been on for the past forty years without a radical change, the federal government will soon have a $10 trillion budget.
In other words, the federal budget deficit will be $1.4 trillion. Just to make the size more visible, that’s $1,400 billion.
Our colleague Rob Arnott, who always does terrific research, wrote in his recent report that “at all levels, federal, state, local and GSEs, the total public debt is now at 141% of GDP. That puts the United States in some elite company–only Japan, Lebanon and Zimbabwe are higher. That’s only the start. Add household debt (highest in the world at 99% of GDP) and corporate debt (highest in the world at 317% of GDP, not even counting off-balance-sheet swaps and derivatives) and our total debt is 557% of GDP. Less than three years ago our total indebtedness crossed 500% of GDP for the first time.”
Add the unfunded portion of entitlement programs and we’re at 840% of GDP.
The world has not seen such debt levels in modern history. This debt is not serviceable. Imagine that total debt is 557% of GDP, without considering entitlements.
If you can spend much more than you make by working alone you can have more things and a better life.
You know until you have to pay it back……
Curious as to where this data comes from. Most of it jives with the data put out by the Federal Reserve, except:
- Corporate debt at 317% of GDP is way higher. Federal Reserve shows it as only 205% of GDP, and that includes “financial sector” debt, including securities and such. It also includes all business debt, not just “corporate” debt.
- By including GSE’s in the “public debt”, I think he’s double or even triple counting much of the debt, since the GSE debt I’m certain falls under corporate debt and/or “financial sector” debt, which I think he’s lumping into corporate debt.
Morgan Stanley did a summary of debt a couple of years ago, and showed it as 350% of GDP, not 500%.
Link - still huge, but not near 557%.
E.g. shows corporate debt as 22% of GDP in 2008, nowhere near 317%.
There’s an article in the December 2009 Atlantic called “Did Christianity Cause the Crisis”.
Worth a read.
One thing I noted: Take the data from the Pew foundation that gives county-by-county levels of religiosity, and overlay that on a map of foreclosures by county. The correlation is near-perfect.
As I was snowbound on Saturday and wishing I lived within walking distance to friends, I got to thinking about a fun condo complex I used to live at in the western `burbs of Chicago. A bunch of my friends all lived there, too (some rented from the condo owners, some owned). It was a fun place (I called it our own Melrose Place).
Anyway, thinking about that place prompted me to look them up to see what they’re selling for these days. When I moved back to PA in 2001, the 2BR were selling for the low to mid $70s. During the run-up, 2BRs sold for the low to mid $100s. They are now back to selling in the $70s even though Zillow has them Zestimated at the low $100s.
This prompted me to look at more real estate out in those `burbs (I’m talking Westmont / Willowbrook area). To my surprise, I found that there are homes that I could actually afford to buy out there now! Which got me to wondering…is this area really that much of a lag? And, if so, when does reality return?
Yes the Philly metro is slow in the decline. IMO it will take 4-5 years for this market to bottom out.
Best thing you can do is continue to lowball, eventually you’ll get that truly motivated seller.
The Chicagoland housing market is in a world of hurt at present. The outer burbs especially were awfully overbuilt (like in most of the United States of America).
I don’t know which reality you’re talking about returning, but there’s no way prices skyrocket back up anytime soon. I’d tell you to come back, but it’s been a bit of a depressing vibe around here as of late. Winter’s here, the Bears stink, we lost the Olympics, we’re losing trade shows due to the ridiculous costs at McCormick place, unemployment is up, taxes are still high (except our state income tax which will likely be up soon to pay for the billions of unfunded state pensions)…I could go on, but it’s a mess.
To the PC correct:
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. You are ENTITLED to it. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2010, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere . Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wisher or wishee.
To everyone else:
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Too funny!
The eggshells are getting deeper and harder to avoid! Harumph…45YO middle-class white middle-managers like me are quickly becoming the carrion of this economy.
No complaints - I’ll survive and thrive!
Merry Christmas, wmbz!
The red firemen hat posted on the back of so many 50K trucks plus toy haulers in CA, what are they for to keep them from being ticketed?
Or just to show pride thet they can spend 100’s of thousands on toys because they make 100’s of thousands per year?
Just wondering didn’t see that in AZ
#2. Of course we all know that firefighters and cops need “affordable housing” programs so they can live in the communities they serve.
Those stupid stickers are quite popular here in Massachusetts, and usually are driven by an idiot violating any number of traffic laws and causing great danger to others.
But it is ok, becuase, you know, they’re firefighters.
yield curve steepining ( long bonds have to pay more interest compared to short bonds ) is a predictor of future inflation or at least less fear of Deflation.
And that is what is happening these days. What this means for home prices I don’t want to guess I’ll just wait and see. but Bond prices might come down as the economy recovers. I think I’ll sell my GNMA fund next year. Continue to rent in 2010 I would guess its a 50-50 chance that home prices may go higher here. Interest rates should go up as well that may get buyers to buy now before rates go up.
Interest rates may go higher and that will increase the price of houses ????
Care to explain how??
How many potential buyers are out there with credit and a 20% down payment???
“Interest rates may go higher and that will increase the price of houses ????”
My thinking is potential buyers will rush in to buy now before rates go up driving homes up in price for 2010
I think its still about cash flow and monthly payments not what the house costs in buy it now cash.
If we get a double dip Recession in 2011 or 2012 then these new buyers will just walk and why not nothing happens but bad credit and if Inflation comes back ( unlikely IMO ) they are protected.
This would have unwound faster but the government is determined for a orderly unwinding of bad debt. Thats the small inflation risk if the FED creates too much money and it gets into the hands of borrowers who don’t care much about paying it back just using it to leverage appreciating assets and flip it for a quick buck. Like what just happened in the recent housing bubble.
The only Inflation I expect is higher taxes as the government tries to convice lenders that they can service the debt created to bail out bad loans.
How many potential buyers are out there with credit and a 20% down payment???
I don’t think you need 20% down ?
You don’t need no stinkin 20% down payment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/6853039/UK-property-black-hole-threatens-banks-lending.html
UK property black hole threatens banks’ lending
Britain is at risk of a mass sell-off of distressed properties that would send values into a double dip and impair the lending ability of banks.
***********
Commercial property taking the plunge. Have banks been quietly building reserves in preparation for this round of shocks on a worldwide scale? Are there layers of CDS and other derivatives based on this debt too or have these positions been unwound knowing the deluge was coming?
I wonder if this is why the UK bankers are offering to overpay their personal income taxes.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/dec/17/bankers-voluntary-contributions-bonus-tax
New York’s has a grumpy state of mind: study finds it’s nation’s most unhappy
By Kerry Burke and Larry Mcshane
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
A New York state of mind? Try sad.
A new study declares residents of the Empire State rank dead last in happiness among the 50 states - with warm-weather spots boasting the most satisfied citizens.
The results were - no surprise - greeted unhappily by New Yorkers, who insisted Friday they were upbeat despite a wintry afternoon.
“We’re the happiest people in the nation,” said Roman Khan, 34, a clothing manufacturer from Brooklyn. “This is the place to be.
“We have all colors and cultures in one state. New York is happiness 2-4/7.”
The authors of the study, published Friday in the journal Science, didn’t see it that way.
The rankings were based on an annual nationwide survey of 1.3 million people by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
The participants were asked, among other questions, how satisfied they were with their lives.
A pair of economists then compared the results compiled between 2005 and 2008 with other data covering quality-of-life issues - including taxes, crime, commuting and cost of living.
New York emerged as sadder than the rest, just behind Michigan and its 14.7% unemployment rate. The nation’s most populous state, California, rated No. 46.
The top five happiest states, in order: Louisiana, Hawaii, Florida, Tennessee and Arizona. The authors acknowledged Louisiana’s ranking probably benefited from unhappy residents leaving after Hurricane Katrina.
Cheyenne Smith, 48, and his wife, Alvalyn, of Queens weren’t ready to abandon New York for anyplace else - or to give up their wide holiday smiles.
“Unhappy New Yorkers? You met the two wrong people,” said Cheyenne Smith, wearing an elf hat with a snowman pin. “We may not show it, we may not talk about it, but we’re happy.
“We have an image to uphold - we’re tough,” he continued. “But really we’re soft on the inside.”
His wife - sporting reindeer antlers - echoed her happy husband’s comments.
“It’s a great city,” the 47-year-old accountant said. “I have no idea why they’re complaining.”
The top five happiest states, in order: Louisiana, Hawaii, Florida, Tennessee and Arizona.
Floridians are happy?
They really are in denial.
ET, by happy, they mean “angry.”
Where are my posts today?
The New York Times
Editorial
Even Bigger Than Too Big to Fail
Published: December 14, 2009
Asserting that it “is among the strongest banks in the industry,” Citigroup announced on Monday that it would soon repay $20 billion of federal bailout money. This from a bank that has been in the red for most of the past two years, that is expected to limp through 2010 amid a torrent of loan losses, that saw its stock price close after the announcement at a measly $3.70 a share — and that, like other big banks, is still reluctant to lend.
Meanwhile, the Treasury Department, which seems to have no qualms about Citigroup’s self-proclaimed strength, plans to sell its $25 billion stake over the next six to 12 months.
Citigroup’s planned exit from the bailout — like Bank of America’s earlier this month — would be welcome if the banks were the picture of health. But their main motive is to get out from under the bailout’s pay caps and other restraints. The Treasury Department’s approval is a grim reminder of the political power of the banks, even as the economy they did so much to damage continues to struggle.
Over the weekend, President Obama summoned the nation’s biggest bankers to Washington, but some of the biggest recipients of taxpayers’ money, including Citigroup and Goldman Sachs, didn’t bother making the extra effort to get there ahead of time to avoid the predictable winter weather that grounded their flights.
Mr. Obama was right when he said the banks owe “an extraordinary commitment” to taxpayers, and he got some promises to lend more. But that would have been more convincing if the administration had held the banks’ feet to the fire in the first place and had not agreed so quickly to freeing them from the bailout restraints. The truth is that the taxpayers are still very much on the hook for a banking system that is shaping up to be much riskier than the one that led to disaster.
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I’m rooting for Citigroup and Citigroup’s stock price. The higher the price of their stock goes the more money the Treasury will get for its (meaning our) stake when it dumps it over the next twelve months.
I could care less what Citi’s executives get paid as long as the money isn’t coming out of my pocket.
could care less = couldn’t care less
“If we have learned anything over the last couple of years, it is that banks that are too big to fail pose too much of a risk to the economy. Any serious effort to reform the financial system must ensure that no such banks exist.”
“If we have learned anything over the last couple of years, it is that banks that are too big to fail pose too much of a risk to the economy. Any serious effort to reform the financial system must ensure that no such banks exist.”
Hear, hear!!
Truer words; never written.
I’m surprised this was an editorial opinion published in the NY Times. They must have undergone some kind of intellectual revolution in the board room. If this keeps up, I’ll be tempted to read more of their stuff.
The widest gap ever could also represent an inflation risk premium that investors are demanding for holding l-t Treasurys in times of easy money. There is no way without further information to gauge to what extent the record yield curve gap reflects recovery optimism versus inflation fears — a classical identification problem.
* The Wall Street Journal
* CREDIT MARKETS
* DECEMBER 22, 2009
Bonds Are Signaling a Stronger Recovery
By EMILY BARRETT and JOANNA SLATER
A closely watched bond-market measure of investor optimism hit a record Monday, amid signs the U.S. economy’s recovery is strengthening.
That measure is the yield curve — the difference between short-term and long-term interest rates on government bonds. That number is at its highest level ever, surpassing the record set in June, and signals that investors are expecting a stronger economic turnaround ahead.
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The yield curve steepens when the Federal Reserve, which controls short-term interest rates, keeps them low to spur the economy. But at the same time investors, expecting growth to resume and with it the possibility of inflation, sell longer-term government bonds, which sends their prices down and their yields up.
The difference between the yields, in this case on 2-year and 10-year notes, is the main gauge of the yield curve. On Monday, the difference reached 2.81 percentage points. The gap between short- and long-term yields tends to stretch on the way out of economic trouble.
Before this year, the yield curve was last near these levels in 1992 and 2003. In both instances, the economy was pulling out of a recession, and staged a sustained recovery. However, on both occasions it took a year or more before the Federal Reserve decided the economy was strong enough to warrant interest rate increases.
The gap could widen further, said Tony Crescenzi, a portfolio manager at Pacific Investment Management Co. in Newport Beach, Calif. The previous peaks “didn’t occur until the expansion was gaining some steam, and we don’t know yet that’s the case,” Mr. Crescenzi said. The steeper yield curve is being driven by investors selling off government bonds. The 10-year Treasury tumbled Monday, sending its yield up to 3.686%, the highest since mid August. The yield on the 2-year Treasury rose to 0.872%.
The widening gap stems from a bout of optimism about the U.S. economy, combined with a sense that the Federal Reserve is still months away from raising borrowing costs. The gap is great news for banks, because they can borrow for the short term at low rates and then lend at higher long-term rates.
In the 1990s, a steep yield curve helped pull the U.S. banking industry out of a catastrophic crisis, making it much easier for financial institutions to borrow money at a lower rate, lend it at a higher rate, and put the difference in their pockets. By the end of the decade, earnings growth, fueled by the favorable gap in interest rates and strong consumer spending, had risen to as much as 20% a year.
A rash of better-than-expected economic data in recent weeks has pushed investors to expect better growth. That could lead to inflation, which could eat away at the value of government bonds, making them less attractive. Meanwhile, the Fed has said it intends to maintain its benchmark interest rate near zero for an extended time, which helps keep a lid on yields of shorter-term government securities. “The Fed isn’t going anywhere, at least for now,” said Dan Greenhaus, chief economist at Miller Tabak & Co. As a result.
At this time last year, the gap was 1.27 percentage points. At the crisis onset, in June 2007, the yield curve was inverted: a phenomenon in which short-term yields are higher than long-term ones, a development which often augurs a recession.
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