December 29, 2009

Bits Bucket For December 29, 2009

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Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 05:03:15

Futures higher ahead of housing, confidence data
Stocks look to extend gains; investors await readings on home prices, consumer confidence ~ December 29, 2009

NEW YORK (AP) — Stocks are looking to extend their gains into a seventh straight day as investors anticipate positive readings on home prices and consumer confidence.

Overseas markets are also higher, while bonds and commodities are little changed.

U.S. stock futures are slightly higher as investors await the Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller October index of home prices. Later Tuesday, the Conference Board will release its Consumer Confidence Index for December.

The market continues to climb higher, adding to the big gains logged since March, amid improving economic data.

Dow Jones industrial average futures are up 14 at 10,501. Standard & Poor’s 500 index futures are up 2 at 1,125, while Nasdaq 100 index futures are up 3 at 1,878.

Comment by pressboardbox
2009-12-29 06:05:15

Eddie’s gettin’ rich!

Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 08:48:55

I wouldn’t say rich, but definitely doing better than the 0.015% checking accounts out there.

Comment by Muggy
2009-12-29 09:33:38

Eddie, just promise you’ll stay for a few months after the “recovery.”

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Comment by X-philly
2009-12-29 11:09:54

Rich is relative.

I’d say you are rich, since your budget can absorb the shock of a thousand dollar self-esteem affirming handbag.

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Comment by X-philly
2009-12-29 11:11:08

for the missus of course.

 
Comment by CentralCoastDude
2009-12-29 12:01:46

I wish I could find a safe place for my cash at 4%. I am sick of these low rates. I have $450k sitting and waiting for the bottom to fall out, then I buy again.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 12:06:21

Rich is when your money works for you. Poor is when you work for your money. Sadly I am the latter.

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-12-29 13:04:29

CentralCoast,

Well BND pays 4% now - how “safe” do you want things?

 
Comment by CentralCoastDude
2009-12-29 13:42:44

Safe, as in I wont lose it. What is BND?

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-12-29 15:24:00

CentralCoastDude
We’re in the same predicament, parking it in cash, so we don’t risk it. We put it in a TD Ameritrade Broker Cash Acct., so it was insured with a London insurer. I just don’t trust the FDIC. Still the issue of interest is there, but we feel safer. The account is insured up to $900,000-.

 
Comment by CentralCoastDude
2009-12-29 15:46:13

I was thinking of buying in Calif, but after being back in CA for 6 months, it is sure a mess. I am actually now looking at leaving the US for a long vacation in Argentina. The woman are amazing there, reason enough to go. :)

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-12-29 17:07:16

CCD,

BND is the symbol for a Vanguard ETF that follows a bond index. Look it up on your favorite business/brokerage site.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2009-12-29 18:41:45

Just pay attention to the duration of the bond holdings. If they are longer term bonds, a jack up in rates could hurt, IF you want liquidity.

I’m in cash and some REITs (industrial and discount retail owners) that got overly beaten up during the panic (avoiding those that didn’t really fall all that much). So far, my cash hoard has earned me a restful night’s sleep over the past year+, and my REITs have more than doubled. Both were acceptable returns in my view.

 
 
 
 
Comment by oxide
2009-12-29 06:34:49

This all strikes me as a Frankenkat bounce. Wait until HeliBen and TurboTim shut off the electricity.

Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 07:50:20

Well the big question is, will they? They talk like they’re going to, but their previous history doesn’t exactly suggest that they have the guts or interest in really doing so. I suspect that after the market “overreacts” to any slight tightening they’ll stop. And the market seems to be behaving as if this is their opinion too. So even though they’ve telegraphed their intention to tighten money, any indication that real tightening was actually going to occur is likell to be accompanied by the sort of “OMG, stockpocalypse!” actions that would convince them to stop. The Treasury and the Fed are the Wall Street’s bitch, and WS knows it.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-12-29 09:12:41

This suspicion and negativity is good for the stock market. It’s when everyone is convinced that stocks can only go up that a crash is imminent.

Being retired, I have been out of the stock market for more than five years. However, I advised our kids not to bail at what later turned out to be the bottom last March. So their 401k’s are in better shape now than if they had been sitting on the sidelines since then.

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Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-12-29 09:52:06

+1, Jim. I think the market is rallying on the fumes of moral hazard. Every time the market has stumbled in recent memory, the Fed has been there to ease and patch things up. My take is that the market is factoring this in, so they not only will sotp tightening when the market tells them to, history suggests they will actually loosen in response.

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Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 10:43:32

And of course “stocks can’t stay down because stocks can’t stay down,” is the sort of circular logic that tends to end with a bang, like the ever-rising housing market did.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Elanor
2009-12-29 09:12:55

I’m getting impatient waiting for the market to tank again so I can get back in.

Comment by Spokaneman
2009-12-29 09:43:51

The stockmarket historically corrects about every 10 years, 1972, 1981, 1991, 2000, and 2008, with a couple of mini-blips in 1987 and 1997. My guess is anyone that did not get into the market last April-June of this year, isn’t going to see those kind of prices for several more years. The smart buyers have been buying on the 3% to 5% dips. There likely will be more of those, and maybe even a 10%er or so in 2010, but a wholesale dump back to March pricing isn’t likely.

IMHO.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-12-29 09:55:22

Historical mini-blips are a poor guide to the current episode, IMHO, since they are based on entirely different fundamentals. This time is a debt-bubble-collapse; none of the others you mention were remotely similar.

Past performance does not necessarily predict future results, especially this time.

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Comment by Spokaneman
2009-12-29 10:13:46

Only time will tell that.

But, in the day, we never thought we would get past the oil shocks of the 70’s (Omygod, oil went from $5/barrel to $10), or the high interest rates of the 80’s (Omygod, the prime rate is 18%) or the impact of the dot com melt down of the 90’s (Omygod the Nas went from 5,000 to 1500), but we did. My opinion is that we will get past the effects of the debt bubble and move on to the next one.

As in the past, people who are in ( and are prudent about getting out) will make a ton of dough and lose some in the next bust, but overall will continue to gain ground over the long haul. Thinking otherwise can paralyze a person into total non-action, which is the surest way to remain poor.

IMHO

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 10:42:26

Well said.

Buying stocks in early 2009 was a once in a generation opportunity.

It’s funny how the naysayers here keep saying this time it’s different because of XYZ and expect a crash any second now. Yet for years they mocked anyone who said “this time it’s different” with regards to real estate.

In the 80s the naysayers said we’d be owned by the Japanese. In the 90s the naysayers said we’d never recover from the 1990-1991 recession. In the early 2000s the naysayers said we’d never get over 9/11 and the .com crash. And the same naysayers keep thinking the so called “financial crisis” is permanent.

 
Comment by REhobbyist
2009-12-29 13:20:04

I got our retirement out of stocks in March, 2007, when the S&P was 1300 and went into indexed bond funds. We missed the drama of the last few years and are up on the basis of our bonds. Last week we moved to cash. We’ll go back into bonds after they crash in 2010, timing unknown. I think that stocks will not go above 2000 levels for years to come.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-12-29 15:02:37

“In the early 2000s the naysayers said we’d never get over 9/11 and the .com crash.”

Have you looked at the 10-year chart of the markets recently? Those charts suggest that we still have not recovered from that early-2000s crash; we are at approximately the same level, with zero net-gain in a decade.

“And the same naysayers keep thinking the so called “financial crisis” is permanent.”

I don’t believe it will be permanent; but I do think that we are not done with it yet. The duration of the fallout will correlate with the duration of the mania. It’s way too soon to say that it is behind us already.

 
Comment by gal
2009-12-29 16:09:58

“Buying stocks in early 2009 was a once in a generation opportunity.
It’s funny how the naysayers here keep saying this time it’s different because of XYZ and expect a crash any second now. Yet for years they mocked anyone who said “this time it’s different” with regards to real estate.”

One should buy stocks based on equities and countries economic fundamentals not under the CNBC cheerleaders continuing “yeh, yeh” songs… Yes $$$ is trash and people don’t know where to put their money to work but you should remember that Madof’s “brothers” are continuing to govern this
stock market Ponzi Scheme…

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2009-12-29 16:43:26

CNBC cheerleaders

Just watched ‘Fast Money’ for the first time in a few weeks. They’ve all gone rah-rah on stocks, as if another leg up is a given. And they were pretty much the only people skeptical of the rebound on the network.

What did I miss?

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 18:10:24

Well Spokaneman, millions of PEOPLE actually didn’t recover from all those economic shocks.

 
Comment by gal
2009-12-29 18:27:38

“They’ve all gone rah-rah on stocks” … I was lucky that was ” rah-rah” on stocks in around 1998, when I felt that this country is getting more like the XSoviet Union , from which I run away as a refugee…My father used to invest its money in real money … gold…of course it is not smart but as we witness how Soviet Union evaporated and how the velocity of the speed that this country is turning into third world country, it is better than to loose your investment 85% and than recover it 60% when those money are worth nothing…

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2009-12-29 18:55:13

Just be like George Costanza. Do the opposite of what the popular people are saying.

In early 2009, Roubini (one of the most popular guys out there) was saying that the Dow was going to potentially test the 5’s. It never got there. If you did the opposite, you did very well.

The popular bull hasn’t yet emerged. I don’t think we are yet at a near-term top. Once that popular bull arises (I’m guessing when there is a bump in job numbers–from hiring back people that should have never been fired in the first place), consider moving that 401k and 529 plan back to cash.

Credit markets are too broken to fuel a recovery that is sustainable enough to support medium term stock market levels too much higher than where we are today. If we hit 12k, I think I may duck out for an inning or two.

IMHO.

 
 
Comment by Elanor
2009-12-29 10:06:58

Oh good, then we can leave our 401k’s in cash and not worry about anything except getting scolded by our financial advisor. ;)

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Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 05:04:52

Home prices likely fell in October from year ago, but could post 5th monthly increase ~ December 29, 2009

NEW YORK (AP) — The latest reading on home prices is expected to show a decline from year-ago levels, but since June government programs to boost home sales have helped prices improve on a monthly basis.

The figures for October, which will be released Tuesday, should reflect the rush of homebuyers trying to complete their purchases before the original expiration of a federal tax credit. The Nov. 30 deadline was extended last month to April 30.

“The (tax) credit likely held the floor on prices for a time,” said Zach Pandl, an economist at Nomura Global Economics.

Economists predict the Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller home price index of 20 major cities fell 7.2 percent compared to October last year, according to Thomson Reuters.

The annual declines have been shrinking since the spring, so if the October reading falls far short of expectations it could “reopen the debate on whether prices have reached bottom or not,” Pandl said.

Comment by polly
2009-12-29 07:05:56

I know others will have had the same thought, but why is an increase in price an improvement? When most stores advertise better prices, they are talking about sales and generally lower prices.

Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 07:54:00

Because higher prices mean borrowers are less likely to default, and they owe money to bankers, and they’re important* in a way the j6pk will never be. Fewer writedowns mean that maybe we’ll have another round of bonuses for the Wall Street types, and after all that and stock prices are all that REALLY matter. /extreme cynicism.

*politically speaking.

Comment by packman
2009-12-29 08:38:23

Unless interest rates keep going down - all higher prices do is borrow from future demand. As prices rise, the percentage of people than can afford a house goes down, unless interest rates also go down.

Being that the Fed rate is zero right now - is it possible for interest rates to go down further? I’m thinking no.

Thus rising home prices are only good for the short run. For the long run, they are bad.

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Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 08:47:43

“Thus rising home prices are only good for the short run. For the long run, they are bad.”

If you’re a renter.

 
Comment by packman
2009-12-29 09:04:55

“Thus rising home prices are only good for the short run. For the long run, they are bad.”

If you’re a renter.

100% of the population starts life as a renter.

Probably 99% have to buy a house at some point in order to own one. I suppose then that infinitely-rising home prices are actually good for that 1% of the population that ends up owning a house without actually buying it - i.e. via inheritance. Except for one thing - they have to pay taxes on the inheritance.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 09:11:04

If prices didn’t rise, nobody would build houses. You need some price appreciation to keep production going. When you have perpetual price depreciation, you end up in a 1930s situation. Which I know is a good thing as far as the HBB is concerned, but for the other 99.9% of the population it would be a bad thing.

 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-12-29 09:15:38

All people die, and when those people die those homes go to someone. I know a few people that got their houses for free.

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-12-29 09:16:32

“Unless interest rates keep going down…”

Extremely unlikely as we are now at the beginning of an inflationary environment. Mortgage interest rates will soon be going up, which tends to dampen demand. That, in turn, results in lower prices.

 
Comment by reuven
2009-12-29 09:17:53

“Thus rising home prices are only good for the short run. For the long run, they are bad.”

[...]

If you’re a renter.

I am a real homeowner. (100% paid up home). I don’t want house prices to rise, at least not faster than general wage inflation.

Why? Because it can cause PROPERTY TAX to rise faster than general wage inflation.

Only an IDIOT wants a necessity like housing to have prices that rise out of step with general inflation.

 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2009-12-29 09:20:04

Probably a majority of “homemoaners” are already renters as it is, since they have little or no equity and won’t for the next decade. They’re just paying their rent to different sources. Those that actually manage to increase their equity stake a few percent will just have that amount wiped out when they make their next housing transaction.

If you think it’s progress when everyone (in the aggregate) is paying a much higher percentage of their monthly income into just keeping a roof over their heads… Oh, I forgot. Resales of existing houses and higher housing prices are what will lead us out of recession.

 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2009-12-29 09:29:08

I should mention that I’m a 100% paid up homeowner as well, and I want to see prices fall another 30%.

Percentage-wise, what I’m looking to buy will fall about the same percent as what I’ll be selling. In real dollars, though, I’ll make out better since I will be buying up, and what I’m looking at buying will fall more than what I’m selling. With lower taxes and transaction costs all around. And everyone else will be paying less as well, so they’ll have more money to start business, hire people, and generate new consumption. It’s all good.

I never understood why people think they’re better off if housing prices inflate overall. Your house goes up, but so does everyone else’s house, so what difference does it make? Only if you buy in a relatively under-appreciated area that is then “discovered” does it ever matter. And that advantage can be realized in any market, good, bad, or indifferent.

 
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-12-29 10:05:41

The flip side of that is that us aging boomers are going to be looking to downsize at some point, soon for me. If housing prices decline, in absolute dollars the value of my larger home will decline more than the price of the smaller home I will be moving into. But, in truth, it doesn’t really matter much because I never looked at the equity in my home as disposable funds. So long as I can cash out the new smaller home for less than the net proceeds of the sale of the larger home, so I can continue to live “rent free”, its really a non issue

The losers in the deal are my kids who will inherit less than they otherwise would have. They’ll get over it.

 
Comment by packman
2009-12-29 10:14:54

If prices didn’t rise, nobody would build houses. You need some price appreciation to keep production going. When you have perpetual price depreciation, you end up in a 1930s situation. Which I know is a good thing as far as the HBB is concerned, but for the other 99.9% of the population it would be a bad thing.

Prices should rise commensurate with general inflation - no more no less. In the 1997-2006 timeframe they very much rose faster than inflation, and the past few months are now doing so again. The correction didn’t take them down to their historic inflation-adjusted values, despite the fact that there was huge overbuild, which still exists. Thus housing is still in a bubble, and houses are still more expensive than they should be.

Housing will *always* be too expensive for some segment of the population. That percentage (generally around 36%) should remain flat or decrease over time. If house prices rise faster than inflation - then the percentage will end up going above its natural value, with a larger percentage of the population unable to afford a house. It’s not there yet, but it’ll get there soon, after all these foreclosures wash out.

 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 10:49:22

Eddie, you’re just wrong. Just like stocks, it’s perfectly possible for house prices to be based on a reasonable cap rate and not appreciation. Or at least not appreciation that is greater than inflation in wages and equivalant rents.

 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 10:59:42

And I just checked out my new tax assesment. In Md. they’re done every three years, so mine was last done three years ago. I went from $317,960 to $221,600. WOO HOO! And that’s probably not that far off of the current value. I’d think more like 200k than 220k and we’re probably not at bottom yet, but we’re certainly closer to the bottom than we are to the top IMHO.

 
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-12-29 09:53:50

Let’s not forget, DataQuick uses the REO’s going back to the bank as a sales statistic (volume of sales), and that the loan amt is recorded as the sale price, regardless of serial refi’s. That I suspect, is the real manipulator of any price gains here.

As a one check buyer, I hope 2010 shows promise. My life has been on hold, and I am not getting any younger. One thing you can’t make up for is time.

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Comment by scdave
2009-12-29 10:46:48

One thing you can’t make up for is time ??

The most precious commodity…

 
Comment by Rancher
2009-12-29 15:25:27

Life is like a roll of toilet paper, it goes a lot
fast towards the end.

 
Comment by Lenderoflastresort
2009-12-29 17:47:38

One thing that you MUST take into account is the downside to owning. You could live in the best neighborhood and think you have it made, but the along come a neighbor who recently bought whose got a dog that keeps you up at night and pesters you all day long. Now, in order to deal with these ubiquitous and nasty fellows, you must either confront them on a regular basis, occasionally, or never. These types of people live everywhere in this country. However, if peace and quiet is not your aim, then you can live anywhere. IMHO it’s just not worth it to own, because you cannot move easily. The only areas that are worth owning are areas with million dollar price tags, but then, I’m not even sure of that.

 
 
 
Comment by Spokaneman
2009-12-29 09:59:00

Higher prices mean that the collateral held by Banks (Govt Insured), Fannie and Freddie (Govt backed) and owners of CDO’s (effectively govt guaranteed), is more valuable so the balance sheets of these organizations are effectively stronger, which means that the govt is at significantly lower risk of default, or at significantly less risk of having to print more money.
Is this better? Since we are all on the hook for the actions of the govt, one way or the other, it probably is a good thing, as distasteful as it seems.

Sure, it means that homes will be less affordable for those wanting to move into the home ownership arena, but there probably isn’t a lot of intrinsic harm in that group continuing to rent.

Comment by varelse
2009-12-29 16:49:02

Spoken like a man who is not part of that group!

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Comment by Rental Watch
2009-12-29 18:56:40

Because 67% of the population owns a home. When they feel better, they buy more things. When they buy more things, more people work, and the recovery begins.

 
 
Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 08:46:35

Not to say I told you so, but I told you so.

Comment by iftheshoefits
2009-12-29 09:46:34

A lot of us will readily concede that we underestimated the ability of the Fed and Treasury, and phony mark-to-fantasy tricks, to forestall the inevitable in 2009. I know I did. Never thought I’d be able to get out my remaining long positions in this good a shape, though so it’s OK by me.

Congrats to all who surfed the 2009 run-up successfully. Hope you have your sell stops in place.

Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 10:36:15

Dow will hit 12K by June 1, 2010 and back above 15K in 2011.

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Comment by Mr. Drysdale
2009-12-29 12:23:28

and a new Ford F-150 will cost $75k and a loaf of bread will cost $8.00 and . . .

 
Comment by cashedin05
2009-12-29 12:50:38

…and the fundamentals behind this type of rally will be?

 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2009-12-29 13:11:48

So go all in, dude. Best of luck. I’m sure like all the rest you’ll be here to gloat about it if it works out, and not if doesn’t.

I’ll keep holding most of my investment money in cash at 0.15%, considering that on average it buys about 1% more of what I’m looking at buying, every month that I hold. At some point of course that will end, as do all good things. I’m guessing at this point that mid 2011 will be the inflection point for us.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 15:36:52

Weren’t you all predicting Dow 3k? How did that work out? This bull is just getting started. And in 2011 when it hits 15K you’ll all be here predicting the next great crash is just around the corner and damn that Bernanke for keeping your checking accounts at 0.015% while the eeeeeevil banksters get rich.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-12-29 16:22:44

“And in 2011 when it hits 15K[...]”

At the current rate of dollar-devaluation, if it hits 15K in 2011, it will be worth about what it is worth today at 10K.

 
Comment by gal
2009-12-29 17:06:05

” eeeeeevil banksters get rich” they always get reach because they have “inside” information from their “brothers” who govern the Fed.Res. or they request bailout from “brothers” who own the Treasury department… you should look for yourself, don’t loose your shirt… what happens in Las Vegas , stay in …

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2009-12-29 19:08:42

Eddie, pay careful attention to what credit markets look like once the Dow gets back to 12-13k.

If they are weak (i.e. FDIC still shutting banks down weekly, CMBS and RMBS markets still shut down, lending still down, etc.), any rise to 12k+ will likely be short lived, as without the oxygen of a healthy credit market, any job/economic recovery will be difficult to sustain.

I’m nowhere close to “all-in”, but I’m not nervous with what I have in the market. If the Dow goes up like you say, I will be quite nervous if credit markets are still in terrible shape.

 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2009-12-29 20:28:49

I never predicted anything about the markets, a**hole. Unlike you, I’ll be around to own up to whatever it is that I do say, though.

You’re really threatened by people who have investment opinions different than yours, have to lash out every chance. Sure-fire sign of serious insecurity underneath all the bluster ;)

Reminds me of a certain gold worshipper that used to hang out here all day long. That’s not a compliment, by the way.

 
Comment by ahansen
2009-12-29 23:55:33

He was right, too…..

 
 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-12-29 11:59:17

“A lot of us will readily concede that we underestimated the ability of the Fed and Treasury, and phony mark-to-fantasy tricks, to forestall the inevitable in 2009.”

I certainly admit this readily. The Fed & Treasury have been far more successful at manipulating this market than I would have expected. It may sound strange, but I would suggest that they’ve been far more successful than THEY expected as well—just look at the stress-test “baseline” and “more adverse” home-price forecasts vs the last six months of Case-Shiller data to see what I mean.

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Comment by michael
2009-12-29 11:39:35

if i would have listened to people like you eddie…i would have put my 700K in the market when it was at 14. so you didn’t tell me jack.

Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 15:45:12

People like me? Meaning….

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Comment by gal
2009-12-29 16:54:12

“…The latest reading on home prices…” it will be great to know who is the “reader” and for whom he is reading…

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 18:19:24

Again, if I take 40 away from 100, then add 20, do I declare success?

Comment by Watching the Carnage
2009-12-29 18:50:29

ecofeco,

I’m with you - all in cash in Oct. 07. I sleep nights well and don’t give a care about the current nonsense in the market. I’ll be back…at the right time. The market still has a long way to go to catch me.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-29 05:40:11

No moronic UHS will ever have to accuse me of being a “tire kicker,” as I don’t plan to even bother looking around until prices show signs of reaching post-mania levels…

* The Wall Street Journal
* PAGE ONE
* DECEMBER 29, 2009

A Picky Home Buyer Pursues An Epic Hunt for ‘the One’
‘Tire Kickers’ Drive Brokers Bonkers, but Lidia Pringle Is in a Class of Her Own

By JULIET CHUNG

TIBURON, Calif. — Bay Area real estate has always demanded patience on the part of buyers. Many spend months scouring listings in hopes of finding “the one.”

Then there is Lidia Pringle. The 58-year-old former reporter for United Press International became something of a legend in local real-estate circles for conducting one of the longest and most tenacious house hunts that brokers here can recall.

“I’ve always given 110% to whatever it is I do,” says Ms. Pringle. “If I’m looking for a dream house, of course I’m going to follow the same methodology.”

The National Association of Realtors says the average buyer visits 10 to 12 homes before buying. Over two-and-a-half years, Ms. Pringle personally inspected 298 homes in Marin County.

Collecting flyers along the way, she amassed enough data to fill a two-by-three-foot box. She looked at so many homes that real-estate brokers would sometimes ask for her opinion on new listings they hadn’t yet seen themselves.

House hunts have gotten lengthier as buyers have gotten choosier during the housing downturn. A recent survey of California home buyers by the California Association of Realtors found that buyers who used brokers, on average, spent 10.3 weeks searching for homes this year, compared to 8.7 weeks in 2008. National data show a similar pattern, with an average search time of 10 weeks during the second half of 2008 and early 2009, compared to eight weeks in 2005 and 2006.

Fussy buyers are called “tire kickers” or “fence sitters.” Brokers love to hate them. “I don’t know of any broker who doesn’t have one,” says Ron Phipps, president-elect of the National Association of Realtors. “The problem is, you don’t know” who will be one. “There’s no DNA for me to know that. There’s no psychological profile.”

Comment by pressboardbox
2009-12-29 06:08:45

How dare they compare Realtors’ profession to a lowly sales job! The nerve!

 
Comment by Kim
2009-12-29 06:40:14

Relatively few listings in my area actually have open houses. They never have them on foreclosures and very rarely on short sales. UHS might want to think about hosting more open houses on their listings if they don’t want to spend hours driving around “tire kickers”… just a thought.

Comment by DinOR
2009-12-29 08:31:14

Kim,

What a novel i-d-e-a..? Right, and I’ll take it a step further. Tire kickers will want to be oh-so-cautious about what home they even want to rent in the meantime!

Check your LL’s credit and demand to know if they are current. Just in the event you find yourself in a position where moving is even feasible for you in the immediate future?

Kick all the tires you want.

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-12-29 09:19:14

My wife the ex-realtor says open houses are a way for the realtor to get more customers (buyers). In her eight years in the business, she only remembers two of her listings selling as a result of an open house.

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-12-29 10:08:35

They use to call open houses the “portable office”, but if you know that going in, you can be an actor too just to get a view of the place. They use us, so why not use them. It’s a perverse use of the “Golden Rule”.

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Comment by Sarah
2009-12-29 07:53:13

“The average buyer visits 10 to 12 homes before buying.”

Is this true? At a minimum, if I was really serious, I would spend a month looking at everything in my price range and targeted neighborhoods to understand the market before I even considered making an offer. Then I would have all comps pulled for the last 18 months and run an analysis. The next 3 months would be spent making dreaded low ball offers until I find someone willing to cut a deal. People spend more time looking for a pair of shoes.

I remember a coworker said she was going to start looking at houses. I asked her how it went. She told me she bought one the first day looking. I was appalled. Sometimes on HGTV people will be moving to a new area and fly up a few weeks in advance with the mindset they must buy a home that weekend. I watch in true disbelief. They don’t even know if they will like their job or what neighborhood suits them best, but I guess thats why the sought the help of a “professional” who can tell them to pay just a little more than asking with no conditions to make sure they get it.

Comment by DinOR
2009-12-29 08:40:03

Sarah,

Well said. With some folks, shoes I suppose, for me? Guitar amps! I drove shop guys up a wall, even coming back and “trying on” the amp a second time.

When I finally stumbled on something that was the right ‘fit’, true enough, I bought it on the spot! ( But only after a -year- of kicking tires )

Comment by reuven
2009-12-29 09:24:43

If you had spent all that time fiddling with Guitar Amps actually _practicing_ the guitar, you may have improved your sound even more!

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Comment by DinOR
2009-12-29 09:45:24

reuven,

LOL! Yeah I actually say that to a lot of players quite a bit. I played through the same Fender “Super 60″ for over 20 years ( and unlike a ‘lot’ of people ) without any “crutches” ( read effects pedals )

My SIL uses it now but it will always be in the family. In truth, I got about as good as I was going to get over 20 years ago. Guitar players definitely “peak” and after all, we become beholden to a certain era. I only know a handful that have grown -throughout- their career. Jeff Beck and Chet Atkins come to mind?

But my point was that it became such a realtwhore staple to call a potential buyer’s manhood into question and say, Why don’t you just “write an offer” ( to see what happens?! ) If you’re not the kind of buyer that leaps based on impulse, than you’re not the guy I’m looking for! I want people that base 400k decisions based on a 15 min. walk-around.

 
 
 
Comment by Bad Chile
2009-12-29 08:47:39

I’ve been looking for five years. Been to probably 75 open houses. Driven by quite a few more listings. Helps that I’m in New England where almost every house is old and has problems,

Its gotten so bad that
a) I can identify what my wife is going to find fault with, as can she with me, within a minute of entering a house;
b) I just bought a GPS unit to make my Sunday “drive around” a little easier.

I don’t think we’re being unreasonable, but then again, I find major structural issues or being on a major road to be non-starters. We track every house we’re interested in on Redfin (which is indespensible for this level of effort) and keep track of time on market, sale price, price per square foot, etc. I think this is prudent given the magnitude of the purchase.

We’re also going into this with the idea that every dime we put into the house is lost. That’s right, we’re never going to see a return on the “investment”, and we’re assuming no tax benefits based upon all the budget shortfalls that exist. Because of these assumptions we’re slightly more picky than the average “10-12 houses” buyer.

 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2009-12-29 10:14:25

“People spend more time looking for a pair of shoes.”

Well, it is important that they be the right size.

Comment by aNYCdj
2009-12-29 12:19:08

NO they will have their feet cut open and made thinner to fit into jimmy choo shoes

Then they will fit right for a lousy $700 a pair.

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Comment by Eau Claire Dude AKA Fresno Dude
2009-12-29 12:05:40

My wife wanted a house we could move the furniture into from the moving truck. Take nine days, go to Eau Claire, and buy a house. She said I trust my daughter in law to be my proxy. My wife never saw the house until the moving truck pulled into the drive way. We (my daughter in law and myself) did twenty drive buy, looked at ten of those, and I made an offer on a house in seven days. There was a SNAFU when the bank refused to approve the loan until I was officially retired in a month because they wanted to see how much money I had to retire with. We wound up renting the house for several weeks from the original owner as he made a personal loan to cover the amount of money needed for him to move into his new house.

 
 
Comment by Tim
2009-12-29 08:03:31

“The National Association of Realtors says the average buyer visits 10 to 12 homes before buying.”

They certainly wouldn’t want to cut into HGTV viewing time by taking the time to understand the market and trying to get the best deal possible.

Comment by MazNJ
2009-12-29 10:18:33

Over 5 years and counting for me. Here’s to 2010.

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-12-29 11:09:37

“…Over two-and-a-half years, Ms. Pringle personally inspected 298 homes in Marin County.”

Slogging with the “Marinindels” for 2.5 years?

BWAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! (fpss™)

How old is she? I guess she suffers from Jack Benny “disease” ;-)

Armed robber: “You’re money or your life!”
Mr. Benny: (long long pause)
Armed robber: “Hey Jack!…I said your money or your life!”
Mr. Benny: “I’m thinking,…I’m thinking!” ;-)

 
Comment by MommyK
2009-12-29 12:21:58

I’m not sure how many houses a buyer actually looks through is that relevant. Someone could spend a lot of time looking on-line if she is familiar with the general neighborhoods, narrowing it further by doing a few drive bys, and then finally going into a couple of them.
I think someone who actually looks into more than 100 closets just likes to spend time doing that.

Comment by Mr. Drysdale
2009-12-29 12:28:09

+1, my thoughts exactly.

Comment by DinOR
2009-12-29 12:56:30

“looks into more than 100 closets”

Yeah if you’ve seen one you’ve seen ‘em all. To be fair, as we’ve been discussing over the last 5 years or so, it IS a major purchase and major commitment!

Anyone mind if we ‘think’ on it for a minute!? I’ll never forget just 2 years ago my wife and I stayed at a condo-tel out on the Oregon Coast. Lincoln City actually, in the Taft District.

We were only there for the weekend but it was Feb. so we talked to the sales guy in the lobby. My big curiousity was; “How do these things ‘really’ pencil out?” The guy gave me an agent’s # closer to where we live in Salem and things seemed casual enough. Well! I no sooner got on the phone w/ the local guy and ALL he could say was “Make ‘em an offer!” It was his response to EVERYTHING! So I don’t want to hear for a minute ( after years… of suffering at the hands of ‘that’ level of abuse ) that we’re “wasting people’s time”. TFB.

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Comment by REhobbyist
2009-12-29 13:27:01

I won’t let someone buy a house if they haven’t seen at least 50. It’s fun to watch their attitudes change in this falling market. By the time we’re ready to make a low offer, they realize that they are doing sellers a favor.

Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-12-29 16:48:06

More importantly, don’t buy a house unless you visit it AT LEAST twice, with one or more days between visits. It’s amazing how many things (usually defects but occasionally a pleasant surprise) you see on subsequent visits that you missed the first time you saw it.

 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 18:29:27

My ex and I spent 2 YEARS looking for our house. I learned some very important lessons in those 2 years:

Most RE agents are useless.
Most older homes have never been maintained.
Most new homes are not properly inspected and need a lot of punch out, which they promise to do, but don’t.
I could tell if a house had good bones just looking at the roof line and any sagging corners.
Yard maintenance must be a dirty word.

Fussy? Gee, I wonder why?

 
 
Comment by polly
2009-12-29 06:08:01

Wake up with a start at 3:45 AM and throw on yesterday’s clothes.

Load up car with bathroom box, bedding, small electronics, framed posters, clothes, and teddy bear.

Drive down Rockville Pike before the traffic picks up.

Unload at the new place being extremely careful to not wake up new neighbors.

Drive back before 7:00 AM and go back to bed (no sheets) for a nap.

It may be the only way to let a landlord know they can’t get away with above market rate rents, but Lord, I hate moving.

Comment by Kim
2009-12-29 06:24:38

I hope the move goes smoothly for you, Polly.

Comment by polly
2009-12-29 06:47:24

Thanks. It is fine so far, but very stressful. Movers are coming tomorrow morning. Drop off is New Year’s Eve in the morning. Cable guy coming for set up that afternoon. I’ve called all the major utilities, banks, insurance, etc. and submitted the change of address to the post office. But I still have a lot of packing to do today.

I think I can get away with clearing out on on January 1st instead of December 31st since the office at my current place is closing early on Thursday and closed all day Friday, so that eases up some pressure. I probably will come back on January 1st to empty out the fridge, clean up a little, do one last load of laundry and drop off the keys and my parking pass.

I am NOT going to be the life of the party on New Year’s Eve. I’ll get there (thank you GPS), but I’d be surprised if I made it much past midnight.

Comment by DinOR
2009-12-29 08:36:15

polly,

I hear you. I was on my ( 3rd ) bubble-sitting residence in less than 2 years. Since I was convinced an implosion was always just around the corner, it wasn’t until our 3rd place that I signed a 1 year lease.

After that, we went a month-to-month. I -still- got screwed. Try and have a nice New Year anyway though.

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Comment by oxide
2009-12-29 06:39:16

I’m with ya Polly. I’ve had to move across state lines six times since I received my undergraduate degree, the most recent being last week. And each time I’ve had more stuff to move, and have had to change more addresses as I become more entrenched into the “system.” I’m starting to empathize with that set of people who do and commune-and-barter thing.

Comment by polly
2009-12-29 07:11:49

So, Oxide, are you now a Marylander? That was the most recent one, right? Where are you now?

Comment by oxide
2009-12-29 09:20:58

I’m not so far from you now. Or at least not so far from where you used to be.

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Comment by polly
2009-12-29 15:24:59

Welcome to the neighborhood. Whatever you have heard about the traffic, just remember, it is actually worse than that. No matter what you have heard. Really.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 08:02:57

Hey, at least Maryland isn’t one of those states where you have to get new tags for your car if you move to a new county. Moving every year also makes getting/keeping a security clearance more work, you have to list people who knew you at EVERY address for the last 10 years. And Rockville Pike traffic has gotten MUCH worse over the last 25 years.

Comment by oxide
2009-12-29 09:33:58

Jim, this is part of why I spar with Bill-in-LA-at-the-moment. The employment market has evolved to predicate on a mobile workforce. Want a raise? Change companies and move. Want to even keep your job, or any job? Change companies and move. But the society system is still based on staying in one place (or at least in the same metro area) for 10 years or more.* Moving over state lines is a real hassle because you have to change insurance and cars, along with all addresses and medical and medical insurance, not to mention the move itself. All I can say is thank goodness for that Supreme Court decision that allows people to keep their cell phone number. It’s very handy to have in transition.

Maybe Bill can move like a nomad every couple years, but it’s a strain on me, as well on most other households especially with children.

——-
*Except for the military, where moving every two years is commonplace. But in the military, they have established an internal system for moving people. On the outside, civvies have to navigate a patchwork on their own.

Comment by DinOR
2009-12-29 10:29:58

oxide,

Gen…erally true, but it varies from time to time and the branch in which you serve. For many years the Marine Corp. basically said “If we thought you needed a wife ( we would have issued you one! )”

The Chair Force is easily the best but the Navy for many years was almost as indifferent as the Marines. But I get your point, no one joins with the design they’ll be in one place for 20 or 30 years?

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Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 10:52:02

I actually know somebody who spent almost 20 years in one place in the military, but you generally have to have an extreemly rare MOS to manage that.

 
 
Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-12-29 20:03:21

One makes their choices, and one must live by those choices and at least can focus on optimizing the life within those choices.

The nomadic contract engineering life is best suited for childless singles, although I know fathers who consult all over the U.S. for months at a time. The downside on being a childless single contractor is not having the social relationship of spouse (or comon law marriage) and children.

Those of you who have companions and children but not as much income as me are blessed in different ways from me.

However I keep finding ways to optimize my own life within my individualist nomadic world.

IIn my past experience on “the ten year renewal” I found ways to answer the question of “provide contact information of individuals (non-family members) who knew you at your addresses the last ten years.” So you spend a year in different hotels where you work. Obviously you won’t mention them. You mention people who knew you at your permanent address. The apartment manager. My sister’s boyfriend. The maintenance people who fixed my air conditioner in the summer of 2008. Somehow those temporary visitors are acceptable, according to my experience.

I’m considering moving to an ultra upscale apartment complex in Scottsdale next Fall. So I will get to know the management there. I’ll give them boxes of candy every Christmas or something. I’m not too worried. I’ll be 57 when I’m up for renewal anyway. Economic circumstances may be favorable to me by that time to go commercial and downsize.

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Comment by Bill in Los Angeles
2009-12-29 18:28:48

Jim A.,

There are lucrative circumstances to have two addresses - one long term. The other where you work. Keep the long term for when you renew your security clearance. I am unsocial, which should be problematic, however I have listed a property manager once. Also a colleague who was over to watch a superbowl game on a snowy NJ evening. A four hour visit in ten months still counted. I think you are not supposed to list relatives. If on the next renewal they tighten it up to only include social people who regularly have guests, I will switch to the commercial side. I am hardly ever home at my perm address in AZ anyway. Their loss. I only trust people who at least have national security clearances these days. Supposed to have no credit problems, no drug problems, no gambling problems, no running from the law, no warrants, etc. So my only guests would be colleagues or relatives.

Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 21:07:20

Hey, when I did my PRI earlier this month I was AMAZED at how much easier it was since I’ve been living in the same place the last 10 years.

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Comment by jim
2009-12-29 08:32:07

i just did the same move, aint the GW parkway lovely? You in NOVA now?

Comment by polly
2009-12-29 08:41:43

Nope, just to Chevy Chase, same state, same county. 5 Metro stops closer to work. Stores in the neighborhood are absurdly high end, but I’m not an impulse shopper, so I figure it doesn’t matter much whether I’m not buying Gucci or not buying Hallmark store garbage. I’ll miss being fairly close to the Harris Teeter, but I can check the flyer on-line, so if they ever have one of their outrageously good sales, I can drive up anyway.

Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 08:54:50

Of course I can’t even remember how many different flavors of Chevy Chase there are. There are what, five different municipalities with “Chevy Chase” as part of their name?

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Comment by polly
2009-12-29 09:03:16

I’m still not sure if it is part of Bethesda or not. Guess I’ll find out when I fill out my State/County taxes.

USAA reduced my car insurance rate by $2 a month.

 
 
 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-12-29 09:17:04

Do you want to borrow my flatbed truck Polly ?? :)

Comment by polly
2009-12-29 09:45:57

Just got a call from the movers to confirm. I’ve dragged a lot of stuff over there in my car and I will try to do some more this afternoon or this evening, but the new apartment building has one freight elevator and it was reserved for all times except the morning of Boxing Day and the morning of New Year’s Eve. After I pointed out that it was very unlikely that I could get a crew of movers to come to pack me up on Christmas Day, I reserved for New Year’s Eve morning.

I love the various folks around here who have actually offered to help with a move. Really, I appreciate the thought, but when you have to unload a very full one bedroom and have only four huors to do it, you need professionals. Friends are great for helping you pack/unpack one of those pod things when you have all the time in the world. Not so great for buildings with time limits.

Comment by Elanor
2009-12-29 10:05:10

Then there are the friends who promise they’ll show up to help and don’t. If more than one such ‘friend’ fails to show, you’re left with yourself and one or two honorable hapless suckers to move aaaallll your belongings. Been there, done that! :D

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Comment by aNYCdj
2009-12-29 12:36:07

Polly:

My tip move everything upstairs into the hallway before the 4 hours is over…the mgt and union workers can be brutal, especially if they wont let you move things up the fire escape stairs… trust me I’ve seen them charge $500 an hour or more in fees to the tenants or the owners of the condoze for not having it done on time.

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Comment by polly
2009-12-29 15:30:29

Darling, I am on the 14th floor. No fire escape stairs. Freight elevator.

I am moving into a larger space. That is the real difference. I hope that will make the unload fairly efficient. That and the fact that I have already moved and unpacked all my hanging clothes, a bunch of kitchen stuff, a bunch of stuff that goes in the linen closet, etc.

 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2009-12-29 18:16:33

Are the new digs Grizzly friendly? :)

 
 
 
 
Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-12-29 09:44:50

Isn’t there an REM song about not going back to Rockville?

Comment by polly
2009-12-29 10:17:11

Yeah, but I just checked out the lyrics and they have nothing to do with this Rockville. MD’s Rockville is a bedroom community for DC. Maybe it was different a while ago? The busses here all go to a mall or Silver Spring or maybe the National Institutes of Health/Bethesda Naval Medical Center.

When they started talking about Kate from Jon and Kate plus Eight buying a condo here, it was time to go.

 
 
Comment by lavi d
2009-12-29 10:05:37

It may be the only way to let a landlord know they can’t get away with above market rate rents, but Lord, I hate moving.

Best of luck Polly, and congrats on the new place.

Also, take it easy on the new knee, eh?

 
Comment by ahansen
2009-12-29 11:52:18

Polly,
Having done this more times than I would care to recall, there ARE a lot of positive elements to the whole production. When you’re too bone-tired to move another spoon, remember that this is:

A. An enforced, prolonged total-body workout that will manifest itself in tighter abs, gleuts, and ‘ceps in the weeks to come. You’d pay a fortune to have a private trainer work you this hard.
B. The mental challenge of fitting puzzle parts together as you design your new interior space is a complete diversion from your work-a-day world.
C. You get the fun of opening all those boxes of cool stuff from the auld sod and seeing their contents in a whole new light.
D. And a completely unsullied new environment to move it all into. (Or banish it from.)
E. The satisfying adventure of a Major Undertaking of which YOU are the director, stage manager, and overlord! Make those movers sweat, girl!
And best of all:
F. The satisfaction of knowing you stuck it to your former LL, because they’ll never get another tenant as good as you were!

When you finally tuck under your covers safe in your new bedroom, you will sleep the most honest night’s sleep in ages– and awaken to the incipient thrill of exploring your new digs. I’m envious! (Well, sorta.)

Comment by lavi d
2009-12-29 12:35:23

An enforced, prolonged total-body workout that will manifest itself in tighter abs, gleuts, and ‘ceps in the weeks to come.

I lost 10 pounds in one weekend the last time I moved.

 
Comment by polly
2009-12-29 13:07:16

Thank you. That was inspiring.

I have, of course, already planned out the furniture placement in the new space. That is about 3/4’s of the fun and I love that part. It will be satisfying to see the vision implemented, but I don’t get to relive the pleasure of the planning again.

I have resisted planning out the placement of the art for the most part. I’ll keep that pleasure for later.

By the way, you would think that there would be online tools for this, wouldn’t you? They all seem to be sponsored by flooring companies and are all about giving you some HGTV ready 3-d image to walk through. I just want to input the size of my sofa, my desk, my bookcases, the lengths of my walls and see if I can make it all fit. I have a sort of colorforms version of this, but it was already packed by the time I needed it.

Sleeping? What is sleep? I haven’t slept more than a few hours in the night in a while. And it is bringing back the cough I had from the flu. Ick.

Speaking of health, how are you doing? Is the surgery over? Feeling better?

 
 
Comment by REhobbyist
2009-12-29 13:28:31

Woke up, got out of bed, dragged a comb across my head.

Happy moving, Polly!

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-12-29 14:53:40

“It may be the only way to let a landlord know they can’t get away with above market rate rents, but Lord, I hate moving.”

I’m with you on that, polly. I’m currently engaged in “negotiations” with my LL. He offered me a 9.4% reduction, and I told him I think the market price is still lower.

Anyway, here’s hoping your move goes very smoothly, and that you enjoy the new place more than enough to offset the hassle/pain! Nice work on finding a better place, btw—it sounds like a pretty compelling upgrade, and being five metro-stops closer to work will buy you a fair bit of time. Congrats!

Comment by polly
2009-12-29 18:24:37

20 minutes minimum saved each way. That is 40 minutes or more back in my life each work day I go to the office. A heck of a lot more if there are red line issues between old stop and new stop which happens often enough to be relevant.

Plus my car is over 12 years old and in this location I could go with a zip car if mine ever died.

Better security, bigger apartment, better amenities. Can walk to movie theater. Park across the street. Older, more solid construction. 24 hour maintenance staff on site. I could go on, but I won’t. I know this is worth it. I just don’t like the process. And doing it alone stinks. Last time I had best friend and brother and future sister-in-law helping and nearly three weeks on this end to unpack. This time I had plenty of offers to help, but they all fell through (out of town, had to work and injured back). Sigh. It will be over. It will.

Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 21:12:43

Hey cutting down your commute is GLORIOUS, let me tell you. I used to commute from Laurel, MD to the Pentagon. I left the apartment at quarter of seven and got back at quarter after seven. Now I leave my house at seven and get home before 4:30.

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Comment by Pondering the Mess
2009-12-31 13:31:56

Good luck, Polly!

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 06:09:30

GM Plans Pontiac Fire Sale. WSJ

General Motors Co. is offering its dealers hefty incentives to move thousands of leftover vehicles from its discontinued Saturn and Pontiac brands. The unusual tactic could inflate the car maker’s December sales and cut the cost to car buyers by as much as 46% off the sticker price.

In what is equivalent to a year-end fire sale, GM sent letters to dealers Dec. 23 saying it would pay them $7,000 for every new Saturn or Pontiac on their lot that is moved to rental-vehicle or service-vehicle fleets operated by the dealers.

Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 09:16:54

46% off MSRP for a Pontiac…still about 54% too much.

Comment by eastcoaster
2009-12-29 14:19:16

Bite me, elitist. I love my Vibe.

Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 16:21:38

You mean your Toyota Matrix.

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Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 21:13:49

But for 46% off, there’s nothing wrong with letting them put an arrowhead on the grill.

 
 
 
 
Comment by mike in bend
2009-12-29 09:17:51

i have earned $1100 credit towards a GM vehicle on my GM card, any recommendations for a screaming deal on a new car that I could purchase with this card? I will consult some local dealers, but anyone know of any models in particular I shoud look at Looking for a good gas milage car/truck/mid or small SUV.

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2009-12-29 09:25:38

But other than possibly a Vibe (in reality a Toyota Matrix), what Pontiac model is worth buying?

Comment by lavi d
2009-12-29 10:14:32

But other than possibly a Vibe (in reality a Toyota Matrix), what Pontiac model is worth buying?

G6 GT hardtop convertible, my friend.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-12-29 11:49:09

“…G6 GT hardtop convertible, my friend.”

Hey, I remember in the ’80’s they weren’t gonna make anymore “convertibles” …what happened? :-)

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Comment by lavi d
2009-12-29 11:59:02

Hey, I remember in the ’80’s they weren’t gonna make anymore “convertibles” …what happened?

I think it had something to do with insurance…

 
 
 
Comment by iftheshoefits
2009-12-29 10:16:50

But they’ll be collector’s items! And for once, it’s really true, they’re not making any more of them, so buy now, or be priced out forever.

 
Comment by The_Overdog
2009-12-30 03:24:04

The G8 is also an excellent car.

 
 
 
Comment by Asparagus
2009-12-29 06:11:57

Is anyone else seeing quite a few homes coming back on the market over the last two weeks?

A fair number of houses that went under contract during the crazy days of “the stimulus is ending” are coming back on the market.

Better still, they have obviously gone through an inspection. They are coming on at a lower price and the listing has all kinds of good disclosures about basements,roofs and water….

Comment by NoSingleOne
2009-12-29 07:06:49

All the sellers who held off putting their houses on the market while waiting for prices to rebound are getting scared and capitulating.

I think it’s a good thing.

Comment by MrBubble
2009-12-29 08:22:18

My brother is one of these. He’s been a renter nearer to his job for some time while he rented out “his” (i.e. his lender’s) place to feed the alligator. He just moved into a new rental and the renters of “his” house gave their notice for a January 1 move out.

He’s now underwater by several thousand. The lender won’t do a refi until he’s missed five payments. And I suppose, why would they while he’s paying? I told him to look into the ramifications of missing the five and trying for a refi or using the five months “savings” to bring cash to the table for a short sale or just walking away. I don’t give any specific advice to him, because I don’t really know what I’m talking about. All that I believe that I know is that he needs to get rid of “his” place.

He’s worried about his credit being destroyed by walking away as well as the “moral” issues of breaking his word. I built a scenario where the bank was in his same position and asked him what he thought the bank would do. He saw the light and now understands that the contract was for him to keep paying or to lose the house and his down payment.

[Then I told him that if he'd stop buying a bunch of crap that he couldn't afford, he wouldn't need credit. OK, I didn't say that. I used myself as an example of someone who is trying to starve these Greenwich/Hamptons criminals and parasites and Detroit MBA morons and the CEOs who sent our jobs overseas while recruiting immigrants to work here in our country all the better to control their workers. I do this by eating locally and not buying stuff and not having a car and wearing a sweater when it's cold... then he rolled his eyes and felt good about himself that he's not as crazy as his big brother.]

Unfortunately for him, there is another identical house for sale on his very street for the same list price. There’s something I learned in my macroeconomics class in high school about supply and demand and prices, IIRC. But what do I know? If he sold when I told him to in 2005, he’d be rolling in a pile of cash (or gold or stocks or bonds or food). This is going to be oogly to watch.

MrBubble

Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 21:17:16

I hate to say it, but if he’s only underwater by several thousand, it might be worth showing up to closing with a check.

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Comment by MrBubble
2009-12-30 07:28:16

Actually, that is what I told him. He said that he didn’t have the cash. I could not believe my ears. Three kids, a wife and one job with no cushion cash? Holy sh!

He did forget to mention his 401k, but still…

 
 
 
 
Comment by Real Estate Refugee
2009-12-29 09:30:05

This spring should be really interesting IMO. Since the news media has been reporting on an uptick or stabilizing in prices, there may very well be sellers who’ve been waiting for prices to rise before putting their homes on the market.

Add in banks deciding that current pricing means it’s time to unload foreclosures and there could be a flood of inventory in the next 3 - 6 months.

I’ve noticed a 10% to 20% rise in inventory in the past month.

Unemployment and overbuilding meet Mr. Demand.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 06:12:08

Fishermen Sell Boats, Cut Inventory to Cope with Ban.

ST. AUGUSTINE, Fla. — In one week, there will be no more fishing for red snapper off the Southeast Atlantic coast. Already, those invested in the fishing industry are making changes to their businesses.

2010 will mark a milestone in Robert Johnson’s life. “My 30th year. I started out as a mate in 1980,” Johnson said.

With a heavy heart, Johnson surveyed repairs being made on his boat, the Jodie Lynn II. Since the future of his sports fishing charter business is unknown, he plans to save money by putting one of his two boats up for sale.

“Hopefully, I’ll make it through whatever comes. I’m not sure,” he said.

Johnson has a family of four to worry about, and said he’ll likely put his house on the market soon as well.

The red snapper ban which will take effect next week will cut his business, Jodie Lynn Sports Fishing Charters, to a fourth of what it used to be, he said.

“Part of me was afraid it was going to come to this and part of me was hoping clearer minds would prevail,” Johnson said.

For months, fishing captains and others invested in the industry have fought the ban, arguing that a ban on fishing for the popular red snapper would slow charters to the point that some people would no longer be able to afford their operations.

The South Atlantic Fishery Management Council passed the ban on Dec. 3.

Johnson said it is not only the fishermen, but the surrounding businesses — bait shops, marinas, fuel stations and hotels — that will be affected.

Comment by oxide
2009-12-29 06:40:48

Welcome to Buggy Whip 2010.

 
Comment by SaladSD
2009-12-29 12:49:36

So, what do you do if a particular species is fished to the point of extinction? From a few things I’ve read, the red snapper population is down to 3% of it’s historical levels in the south Atlantic. They implemented a similiar ban on fishing in the gulf states and now the red snapper population is rebounding.

Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 19:19:52

Overfishing has become a critical problem worldwide. Without bans or regulated catches, we’ll have no edible fish or we’ll have insanely high prices.

Cleaning up coastal pollution would help as well.

Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 21:20:09

Just like the housing bubble, it doesn’t matter whose FAULT it is: could be overfishing, could be pollution, could be disease. When the population declines, you have to cut the catch or there’s nothing left to catch.

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Comment by Trapper
2009-12-29 06:41:50

Just back from Indian River County (about halfway down the east coast of FL). My parents had bought a nice house new in the early nineties. Two bed, two bath, and a two car garage. I estimate it was about 1300/1400 sq ft. At that time in the early nineties they sold for about 115k, depending on what finishing touches you chose. They sold it in 2005 for $210k. I estimate that was about one year ahead of peak prices. While visiting the area this week I picked up the local real estate rag. One of the listing with “sold” across the photo was a house nearly identical and on the same street as what my parents sold for 210k. The price was shown as 135k. So HBBers, From 115k in 1992 to 135k in 2009. I would consider that the market has now corrected there. You can flame me if you please, but feel that many commenters here are waiting for unrealistic prices.

Comment by polly
2009-12-29 07:03:06

Unless the economic conditions now are very similar to what they were in the early 90’s there is no reason to believe that a price that is close to what was paid in the 90’s is a fair value. It could be much too high, and it could be a screaming bargain (though that is nearly impossible with low interest rates and government sponsored loans with no or absurdly low downpayments).

What jobs are available? What competion does that industry or industries have? What is the median income? Are people retiring to the area? Are they coming from places where that is likely to stop because folks can’t sell their original homes? How much unoccupied supply is there in the area - not just listings and shadow inventory?

Comment by Trapper
2009-12-29 07:11:42

All very good points Polly. And I would add another… What is the current and future outlook for your property taxes and insurance? I know that house insurance costs have risen dramatically in FL. Property taxes may be another area that rises unexpectedly and dramatically.
PS- wish I could be giving you a hand with your move.

 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-12-29 07:48:55

Go a little farther south into St. Lucie and you can buy a 3000 sq. ft. CBS home built in 05-07 for $80,000 Go a little farther south and you get to Martin and Palm Beach Counties and you will find decent homes in decent neighborhoods still overpriced, some wildly overpriced.

And if you want a job to pay for your house.

Reported by: Associated Press
Last Update: 12/18 2:45 pm

Florida unemployment rises

TALLAHASSEE, FL — Florida’s unemployment is continuing to rise with 11.5 percent of the workforce now jobless.

The November unemployment rate released Friday is 0.3 percentage points higher than the October rate. More than 1 million Floridians who want jobs can’t find them.

Florida’s rate is 1.5 percentage points above the national rate of 10 percent.

The number of jobless topped 1 million for the first time in September and has remained above that mark despite the federal stimulus money Gov. Charlie Crist fought for to help create jobs.

Here is the unemployment breakdown for the Palm Beaches and Treasure Coast:

-Palm Beach County’s rate shot up half a percent to 11.7%

-Martin County went up .2 % to 12.4%

-Okeechobee County is up a third of a percent to 13.5%

-St. Lucie County remains steady at 14.7%

-Indian River County dropped by a third of a percent to 14.6

Comment by jeff saturday
2009-12-29 08:00:43

and you will find decent homes in decent neighborhoods still overpriced, some wildly overpriced.

some wildly overpriced, should have been most wildly overpriced

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 09:24:16

“Go a little farther south into St. Lucie and you can buy a 3000 sq. ft. CBS home built in 05-07 for $80,000 ”

Link?

Comment by jeff saturday
2009-12-29 10:58:54

1762 Sw Booth Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $80,000 4 Bed, 2 Bath | 3,302 Sq Ft on 0.24 Acres (10,454 Sq Ft Lot) | MLS #R3048869 | Refreshed 9 minutes ago

built in 06

Want more?

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Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 15:29:43

I can only imagine the quality of neighbors.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 19:23:43

Eddie, I haven’t seen too many 3000sqft houses built in the ghetto. :lol:

But then again, it’s Florida. *shrug*

 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-12-29 11:36:57

first page REALTOR.com for 4/2 single family in Port Saint
Lucie Fl.

1925 Sw Davis St Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $49,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 1,968 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

208 Nw Goldcoast Av Port Saint Lucie, FL 34986 $50,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 3,109 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

151 Se El Sito Ct Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 $56,500
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 1,517 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

1162 Sw Airoso Blvd Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 $59,000
4 Bed, 3 Bath | 3,540 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

581 Nw Cornell Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 $59,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 1,530 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

Port St Lucie, FL 34952 Call Loretta at (772) 708-1524 Click here to search for Florida properties $60,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,068 Sq Ft
Single Family Home
Brokered By: Keyes Co
THIS IS A SHORT SALE. GREAT INVESTMENT PROPERTY.

361 Sw Twig Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 $60,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,244 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

1010 Se Euclid Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 $63,900
4 Bed, 3 Bath | 2,442 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

513 Nw Lincoln Av Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 8 $64,900
4 Bed, 3 Bath | 2,280 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

5064 Nw Fawn St Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 2 $65,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 1,556 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

Port St Lucie, FL 34983 Our Roots Run Deep $65,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 1,556 Sq Ft | 0.23 Acre Lot
Single Family Home
Brokered By: Illustrated Properties Real Estate
4 Bedroom 2 bath home with vaulted ceiling and very large fenced yard…. more

Port St Lucie, FL 34952 16 $69,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 1,863 Sq Ft
Single Family Home
Brokered By: Coldwell Banker
Welcome home! The price is right on this 4 bedroom/2 bath/oversized 2… more

2049 Se Talwood Port Saint Lucie, FL 34952 $69,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,220 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

266 Sw De Gouvea Ter Port Saint Lucie, FL 34984 $69,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 1,951 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

2481 Sw Roney Rd Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $71,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,221 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

Port St Lucie, FL 34984 $74,200
5 Bed, 3 Bath | 3,119 Sq Ft
Single Family Home
Brokered By: Better Homes & Gardens Real Estate Laviano & Assn
4110 Darien St Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $75,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,194 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

1122 Se Floresta Dr Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 $75,500
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,148 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 16 Professionally Serving You In the 21st Century $78,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,280 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

1661 Sw Buffum Lane Port Saint Lucie, FL 34984 $79,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,143 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

3258 Sw Crumpacker St Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $79,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,161 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

2063 Sw Newport Isles Blvd Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 9 $79,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,039 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

1762 Sw Booth Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $80,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 3,302 Sq Ft | 0.24 Acre Lot
Single Family Home

2104 Sw Newport Isles Blvd Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $84,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,039 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

101 E Surfside Av Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 $85,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,500 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

879 Se Celtic Av Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 $86,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 3,216 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

4280 Sw Jared St Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $87,000
4 Bed, 3 Bath | 2,614 Sq Ft | 0.23 Acre Lot
Single Family Home

Port St Lucie, FL 34983 For more information on this listing and others $89,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,822 Sq Ft
Single Family Home
Brokered By: Keller Williams Of the Treasure Coast
2004 4 bedroom 2 bathroom 2 car garage CBS home with fenced in yard.

3651 Rosser Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $89,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,656 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

2097 Sw Savage Blvd Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 Oversized Lot/Backs to Canal! $89,500
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,530 Sq Ft
Single Family Home
WOW!! Newer 4/2/2 CBS that backs to canal/waterway that can easily accom. canoe/small boat. Well-cared-for home w/… more

1726 Import Dr Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $89,900
4 Bed, 3 Bath | 2,412 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

1956 Sw Newport Isles Blvd Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $89,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,039 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

2041 Sw Providence Pl Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $89,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,171 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

2522 National Cir Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $89,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,803 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

1998 Sw Carvalho Port St. Lucie, FL 34983 $89,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath
Single Family Home

1597 Sw Janette Av Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $90,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,549 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

2910 Boxwood Cir Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $90,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,722 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

$93,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,194 Sq Ft
Single Family Home
This is an excellent 4 Bedroom & 2 Bathroom single family home near Po… more

1995 Jamesport Dr Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $93,500
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,189 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

1356 Se Naples Lane Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 $94,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 3,326 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

514 Sw Violet Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 $94,500
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,708 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

4692 Sw Bradbury St Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $94,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,192 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

2773 Se Geneva Port Saint Lucie, FL 34952 $94,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 3,098 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

1450 Sw Paar Dr Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 $94,900
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,708 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

1971 Sw Jamesport Dr Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953 Great 4 BR/ 2 Bath Home with Lake Views $95,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,189 Sq Ft
Single Family Home
This nearly new home is located in a gated community of homes that fea… more

1619 Sw Sylvester Port Saint Lucie, FL 34984 $95,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,342 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

471 Biltmore St Port Saint Lucie, FL 34983 $95,000
4 Bed, 2 Bath | 2,381 Sq Ft
Single Family Home

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Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 19:28:37

I just google mapped the place and went street level.

The area is rather raw, but they look like very nice houses with well kept yards.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-30 00:45:56

Don’t waste your energy using actual data to prove Eddie wrong. He just conveniently ignores it (like your childhood friend who stuck out his tongue and said, “Nan-nee-nan-nee-nah-nah” when he knew you were right and he was wrong).

 
 
 
 
Comment by Sarah
2009-12-29 07:57:40

I didnt see any analysis of whether they overbuilt, what is going on with the economy, and what happened to rents during the same period. Price is not the only variable.

Comment by jeff saturday
2009-12-29 08:54:35

Sarah
St. Lucie County overbuilt speculators, grow houses and people who were told by realtors to buy there because you will never be able to afford Palm Beach County, real estate only goes up ( I was told that by realtors in 05-06) Economy bad.

Palm Beach County overbuilt, over speculated and over refied. Last week I posted that 25% of the 160 houses in the developement I rent in are in foreclosure according to a letter sent to the homeowners by the HOA explaining why the fees were going up. Any records that I can find show only 2 in foreclosure, although several have been empty for 2 years, no for sale sign, no listing and no change of owner on county site. As far as rents, no major change yet in Palm Beach County, at least not in Palm Beach Gardens, Jupiter area I live and look in but I consider that to be a direct result of the shadow inventory that keeps the asking prices up. As far as the economy in PBC, I know a couple of realtors that said they had a good year selling to first time buyers in the low end, firemen had a good year. I know a couple of drycleaners that have been in business for twenty years ready to go under, a couple of building material suppliers same thing, 2 dental assistants let go and 2 adult children that moved back in with their parents due to job loss, four others that have not made a house payment in about a year. I don`t know all that many people but my snapshot of the economy would be bad. Hope this helped.

Comment by Sarah
2009-12-29 12:20:08

Thank you. That’s about what I thought.

I live in Denver and just renewed my lease at a 10% discount, although housing has not dropped that much except for far out suburbs or spec $1,000,000 or higher homes. I would like to look for a retirement place next year and try to follow Florida.

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Comment by mike in bend
2009-12-29 09:11:39

I am looking for a house that is 100k or less.
Sorry if this post is too long! We want a house that meets certain criteria, likely be paying cash as qualifying for a mortgage is tougher and tougher for underemployed types(go figure).

My wife and I are caught up in a mortgage that will certainly bankrupt us as a $2000 payment, even though we put 20% down, it seems that the value will not be recovering very quickly, as our 400k units are currently going for 175k. Mortgage will eat our cash reserves in a year or so, as I have health issues but am unable to file for disability having worked alternatively(ie for cash) for a decade, and my wife with the loan is a part time grocery checker, full time mom. We cant stay in our overpriced digs, cant afford life even if we buy a house for cash, but it would at least put a roof over our kids heads longer term than if we keep pouring reserves into a mortgage that is over our heads. I did not know about the 3x income rule, and we invested recklessly in this house, and it was also underwritten recklessly by Countrywide. Walking away would not be exactly strategic in our cases, as our income does not support making mortgage payments of any consequence. If I could find a good paying job, better than a teacher in terms of compensation, we would bite the bullet and stay for moral reasons, as we could rent next door for half what the mortgage is!

Location of house to purchase could be determined by: Proximity to where we are now, but not necessarily if we find a “better” area based on our other criteria.

Low crime area, ability to rent it out for $700+ per month, is at least a 3/2, and is not a tear down or thrashed foreclosure, and lowish property taxes/maintenance costs, and not in a half built out poorly planned community. Possibly two living units, a studio or even a garage conversion which would allow us to live there yet rent part of it out. Not necessary but desirable in the right home.

I don’t mind partially built out communities, as long as the builder/developer had a contingency plan for a nice community even without blistering sales. But the school, boutiques, etc. which are part of the grand plan in one community that generated our interest, are obviously a long way off.

Where could this be, besides Central Oregon? Most places accross America I have seen prices in the 200 to 300k range for similar homes that can be had here for 100k. Of course, Crook county is 17% unemployment(some say 25%, although there is a chance that a large industrial company of sorts will be opening a facility in Prineville, which would add at least 50, 50,000 per year, jobs, after putting construction workers in work for a year or so as they build, but this company may choose another location yet.

One development in Prineville has over 500 homesites, and has sold 10 or so! 10,000 people in Prineville with over 500 properties currently on the market. Noticing some livable pads for 80k now, I wonder if there is really 500 buyers who can be stepping up to buy these babies and raise prices by buying/snapping up deals. If fed reserve quits buying MBS, or if interest rates rise, won’t that force stricter underwriting, lower prices with less qualified buyers. But now F&F wont fail for the duration of Obamas’ first term, why would they stop buying MBS at the Fed if that is helping to spike the punchbowl, which is what they seem determined to do.

Did no one show them, the PTB, the time-tested rubric, 30% of your proven income goes to housing or “no loan for you”. Where is the “loan czar” when you need one, has it not been proving that going 50% DTI spells catastrophe, unless you bundle them and send them down the taxpayer river(is the fed really gonna quit buying MBS in March??), the bank that actually holds these types of loans would be a laughing stock of the other banks as their portfolio would predictably tank.

What the heck is up with the real estate industry, where is the light of affordability and sustainability that could be turned on by 3x income underwriting?

Where I am, some outlying communities in Redmond, Prineville, on the outskirts of Bend and therefore a little less desirable, are seeming cheap on the starter market, 1999 pricing, give or take. 100k buys a pretty nice starter in Prineville if you look, price is well below “replacement value”
Any thoughts how and where to park 100k in real estate, knowing we don’t have much income, only cash!

Comment by DinOR
2009-12-29 10:40:15

mike in bend,

Great post and thanks for sharing in an honest and open way. Sorry to hear about your health issues.

Bend is especially tough. What is being said on the Bend HB Blog? I live over by Salem and we’ve heard it’s been especially tough there. Why not consider something like a high yield bond fund? At 8.5% it would basically cover your rent. Well at least 11.3 months of it, without eating into pinciple.

Remember, your kids won’t be kids forever and at some point your wife -will- be able to work FT. I think what you definitely have ‘in’ your favor is that, unlike many places in the PNW w/ stubborn stickiness holding prices at unsustainable levels.., Bend HAS collapsed! Trust me there’s nothing within an hour’s drive of Portland for $100k. It could work to your favor? Just a few thoughts.

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Comment by exeter
2009-12-29 20:04:40

Mike,

I’m sorry to hear your tale of woe. You have big balls for stepping up and disclosing that to this crowd. I wish you well…. However…

Deschutes, Crook and Jefferson counties are doomed. I know this as I have relatives there. My SIL bought her shack for 140k in 1996 and nicer places than hers are currently on REO lists for under 100k. 92k to be exact and on the same street. Their entire economy there was founded on equity bandits for well over a decade. No real industry, nothing but stick built shacks, road and highway work.

The locals work for beans yet shelter costs are/were 10x local annual wages *just like everywhere else*. So WTF did everyone think would happen? Either wages had to quadruple or housing had to collapse.

 
Comment by mike in bend
2009-12-30 06:37:01

Well it was a good decade….my kids got to have two stay at home parents for 10 years and we can still buy a livable house with the proceeds from home sales in the area.

Sure was not from teaching or grocery checking, although admittedly, we havent worked all that much, mostly under 20 hours per week for either of us, and less before the kids started school.

We have made 10x the money equity bandit-ing. But since my back is constantly out, i need yet another career (sold veggies for decade, lucrative, but not on my back, coupled with a couple good injuries… then got teaching license, found out teaching job is not desk job…too hard on my back, ever try playing duck duck goose after 4 neck/back/shoulder surgeries? duh on me)

While that may be woesome, we do have savings of 100k, the questions are? should I take the money and… buy a house so the kids can finish school in the area? Or pay the mortgage for 2 more years and then hope I can cover rent or mortgage then. Or rent after we get booted and foreclosed on, we are still paying on the mortgage which could be stupider than coming on here and admitting being a bend equity bandit. That way with renting we keep watching the carnage unfold, and can still pull the trigger at the bottom, if it is ever lowering faster than we blow it on rent.

What you said about the economy here is true, so true. maybe houses will half again in price before it is done as more folks realize they are priced out or are kicked out by the ever sympathethic banks, which would tell me to stay out of the housing market for awhile longer here.

I dunno, just lookin for some advice, and don’t worry, already caught shit from the gang, but maybe they see that life goes on and I got a family to raise, and maybe they got a little more human and are lookng at the problem in a philisophical light rather than bashing one player in the game.

Is not a stock market trader also an equity locust, picking winners dumping losers? I just happened to like the real estate asset class better, as it is real, you can live in it! Even now we could pay 100k, get a livable house, never pay a mortgage again, and lower our cost of living by 2k per month. Or we could wait another year, and get the same house for 50k(don’t actually know that, but 20% unemployment don’t buy any house for the masses), is that really gonna happen or has the starter home market bottomed thats what I want to get a feel for? EXETOR thanks, signed Zorro

 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-12-29 10:58:48

Any thoughts how and where to park 100k in real estate, knowing we don’t have much income, only cash! ??

I have seen a couple of Duplexes near downtown Bend recently for the low $100,000’s…With $100,000. down it should easily cash flow…I would probably use less than the entire 100k…Maybe 60k…Amortize the remaining over 15 years…Throw a extra payment once a year if you can and you may be able to get it down to a 10 year amortization…Do that four or five times in your life and you should be pretty set by 65…

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Comment by X-philly
2009-12-29 11:01:23

You can file for disability, the amt won’t be based on your documented earnings over the years though. You’d be applying for SSI not SSD.

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Comment by In Montana
2009-12-29 11:03:19

Why can’t you walk away and rent?

“Walking away would not be exactly strategic in our cases, as our income does not support making mortgage payments of any consequence.”

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Comment by mike in bend
2009-12-29 11:40:07

We could walk away and rent. We still need to address the 100k sitting in the bank at 2%, and that means we could walk away and rent or walk away and buy.

We want to seamlessly walk from my wife’s house to a house I own outright, because with our low incomes we cant get financing, so we want to try and buy a house for 100k and rent it out for the year or so it takes for Bofa to foreclose on us (mort is paid until Feb 2010)

A duplex for 100k would be rad, I just dont know if 50% down would get me a loan on one that cost 150k, even though my credit score is 700+, I have no INCOME over say 10,000/year.

Seems like almost a bottom to me, a home could rent out for $7000 per year, minus operating expenses and taxes, the money would be earning 5% or so while we have a paid up safe and sound home to move in to if I don’t magically land a job that would allow us to stay in the house we have mortgage on, that we may have to walk from. I watched these houses in Prinevilles’s only “middle classy” neighborhood go up and sell for 250k, and 100k is less than it cost to build, which I consider an important barometer. I have noticed that many other communities around Oregon and the rest of the nation have not fallen so hard, wondering about various other locations for kicks and adventure. I can ply my trade almost anywhere but central Oregon where the sub teacher pool is 1200 strong with hundreds of applicants to every teaching job and hopeless prospects elsewhere.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2009-12-29 12:49:22

Mike Why not a cheap double wide ???

And wait out the collapse even longer

 
 
Comment by Blue Skye
2009-12-29 11:12:16

Only mo opinion Mike, but if we are only in the first stage of the collapse of a several decade long expansion of credit and speculation, “parking” your fortune in real estate could better be phrased “entombing”.

The sum that you mention would pay the rent on my humble cottage for decades.

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Comment by Natalie
2009-12-29 12:05:29

Are you still paying on your house? If so, you should seek the advice of a real estate attorney. Many states are non-recourse, but usually only on firsts, which means you can stop paying on your mortgage immediately and the most they can do is kick you out and ruin your credit. If you are going to buy a new place for all cash, and were facing bankruptcy in any event, who cares?

Some people on here believe it to be unethical, but it was part of your bargain with the bank. You may not have known of such laws, but they certainly did, or should have.

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Comment by mike in bend
2009-12-29 15:12:03

Thanks, we have been over the issue with the city attorney and we can indeed walk, assuming we stick it out here until the sheriff comes and kicks us out.

My wife is the only credit that would be ruined, and I feel bad about that, but my name is not on this deed or loan, as it was a no doc bought not on income, but solely on a fico score, and hers was higher at the time.

We had been over it here before and I got a lot of flak for having the audacity to walk while we had money in the bank. Well gotta take that with a grain of salt because since I don’t work much anymore, only sub teach.

We have no debt besides wifes mortgage, And 100k will buy us a house to rent out in the interim(in my name), while we live in our (my wife’s) house as long as we can either thru making mortgage payments(still have some additional capital for making a few more payments, 100k is where we draw the line for “safety’s sake”). If we stop making payments in February, then we rent out our nest egg for 750 or even less, hey it cash flows almost like a muni bond, while waiting for the bank to foreclose.

But maybe the fall is not over, its hard to believe the house we bought in Bend in 99 is same price now, 129k. We sold it for 285k in 06.

Staying in the same area would be nice, and central oregon is nice, don’t want to entomb my capital though, are muni bonds really 8.5% with little risk?? Making 2% is insulting!

 
 
 
 
Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 09:23:00

Don’t even bother. The house could sell for $135.00 and people here would still say it’s overpriced.

Comment by Natalie
2009-12-29 12:12:51

Not true. If it would cash flow, I wouldn’t worry. Most areas do not cash flow right now but some do. In places they completely over built and with no real economy other than retirees’ money, such as Vegas or many parts of Florida, you might be able to get something reasonably livable for 100k. Do your research and drive a hard bargain. The economy will pick up next year. I am not expecting huge appreciation, but close to normal appreciation can be expected in many areas (i.e., 2-5%).

Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 12:48:24

Las Vegas has no real economy? So tourism is not a real economy anymore. Wall St isn’t a “real” economy. Construction isn’t “real”.

What exactly constitutes a “real” economy for you all?

As for $100K houses, sure you can find them. But be prepared to spend another $10K on bars for the windows, a well trained Doberman and a few handguns.

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Comment by Natalie
2009-12-29 14:18:21

What I term a “real” economy is one that is supported by local jobs, as opposed to one based on speculation from those who work elsewhere or housing for retirees whether because it is cheap or because it is close to water and warm weather. The cycles are very much different.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 14:32:41

That makes no sense. So according to you if there is a manufacturing plant in a town that exports 100% of what it produces, it’s not real because it is dependent on someone else buying.

Which is really no different than Las Vegas which exportd its products. Only difference is the product is tourism services and instead of shipping it out on a container, the buyers ship themselves in to consume the product on site.

 
Comment by Natalie
2009-12-29 15:14:30

It you understood the Vegas market, you would have realized that it was highly dependent on retirees. While people need to be close to work, they do not need to retire in Vegas. Anyhow, I think we all know that the majority of your ignorance is feigned so an indepth dicussion with you is pointless.

 
Comment by mike in bend
2009-12-29 15:20:57

Central Oregon has 100k houses in nice (really nice) subdivisions with low crime, no bars. as DinOR points out, Bend has crashed in a way not seen anywhere else, and it is “gentrified”, countrified, or californicated, however you want to put it. The economy sucks eggs, though, with unemployment over 15% in a tri county region.
Landlording dont sound so bad all of a sudden.
when its your future roof. Look at trulia, realtor dot com if you doubt. Not so much bend but redmond and prineville are towns that have nice areas and everything is down to around $100 per square foot, sometimes half that if it is thrashed.

 
Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 15:42:40

You don’t have any idea what Las Vegas is if you think retirees are the driving engine of the economy. Have you ever been to the city? Did you notice those big shiny buildings with the slot machines inside and tourists galore? That should give you a clue.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 19:52:04

Tourism is not and never will be a “real economy.” That why it’s called “tourism.”

 
Comment by cashedin05
2009-12-29 21:11:14

Eddie,

Regardless of the driving economic forces in Las Vegas, you were still left with a bunch of over priced homes out of reach for those earning he median wage in that city. Ditto for every other city in the U.S. Not rocket science, just common sense.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-30 00:21:17

“You don’t have any idea what Las Vegas is if you think retirees are the driving engine of the economy. Have you ever been to the city? Did you notice those big shiny buildings with the slot machines inside and tourists galore? That should give you a clue.”

I was there today — ate dinner at a Wendy’s restaurant to the west side of town. It looked like McMansion tract home hell in the area where we ate — myriad McUgly brown stucco box homes jammed together into planned development after planned development.

Also drove through the strip (could only do so cause wifey was not along — she outright refuses to leave the freeway when driving through downtown LV), and was duly impressed with the shiny buildings — especially the half-finished ones with signs out front announcing completion dates in Fall 2009. This is the face of an epic commercial real estate bust. You ought to come out and see it for yourself some time, Fast Eddie.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-30 00:42:52

One more thing I noticed around Las Vegas today — lots of signs advertising new homes priced in the $89-$97 per square foot range. I am guessing this is a fairly recent development in Las Vegas real estate pricing? (By contrast, it seems like home prices in San Diego got stucco north of $200/sq ft on the way down towards affordability…)

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 06:46:07

Sagging tourism forces ‘fiscal crisis’ for Hawaii.

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Hawaii’s meticulous tourism records are thick with minus symbols, the basis for a projected state budget gap of $1.23 billion that Governor Linda Lingle says is a “fiscal crisis” that cannot be closed with spending cuts alone.

While strains of “Mele Kalikimaka” greet tourists, Lingle’s proposal this week to balance Hawaii’s budget over its two-year cycle ending in June 2011 lacked similar Christmas season cheer because visitor numbers and spending are weak, Georgina Kawamura, Lingle’s director of budget and finance, told Reuters in a telephone interview on Wednesday.

“I can only remain hopeful that we are now at the bottom and will start to pick up,” Kawamura said.

For the current fiscal year, Hawaii’s budget is seen suffering a $721 million gap, followed by a projected $509.5 million deficit in the coming fiscal year.

“The stark reality of continuing declining general fund revenues means the state does not have sufficient resources to cover all expenditures,” Lingle said on Monday in a bluntly worded budget message to lawmakers.

She said it is possible Hawaii’s revenues may not recover to pre-recession levels until 2014.

Declining revenues are rooted in hesitant consumers. Fewer visitors are traveling to Hawaii and those that do are staying fewer days and spending less — all pointing to fewer dollars flowing into the state’s coffers.

Tourism is Hawaii’s primary economic engine and touched 74 percent of jobs in the state directly or indirectly in 2007, according to a report released in April by First Hawaiian Bank.

Comment by In Montana
2009-12-29 07:16:07

the heloc you say

Comment by packman
2009-12-29 08:41:33

LOL - good one.

 
Comment by DinOR
2009-12-29 08:48:50

In Montana,

Uh huh. Over the last decade or so, Heloc mega-bucks were required for ‘any’ trip to the Aloha State. No one would even think of going there without the basic necessities of a day spa and attendants looking after your every ‘need’.

Nope, wouldn’t want to be caught dead in the Enlisted Club at Fort Derussey now would we?

Comment by Crash and Burn
2009-12-29 09:54:42

Todays weather. Winds, Southerly, 5-10. High will reach 80. Yes, life realy sucks here.

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Comment by DinOR
2009-12-29 10:47:16

Crash and Burn,

No doubt better than what we’re seeing in Oregon at the time..? And it’s not that I haven’t looked into property on the Big Island over the years.

But there’s no way many of us could consider it until we are fully retired. Unfortunately you can’t eat light gentle breezes?

 
 
Comment by In Montana
2009-12-29 11:07:17

We went cheap in 2007, just in time to see the CRE market imploding in Waikiki. Hubby charged and paid it all off before he retired. It is nice there, but I’m glad I didn’t get stucco…The thought did cross my mind..”my own little piece of paradise…” lol

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Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-12-29 11:22:23

:-)

I saw that saying… just as I was leaving Whitefish, MT ;-)

 
 
Comment by polly
2009-12-29 07:18:39

I’d love to go back to Hawaii, especially if it were a screaming bargain, though there are many other places higher on my list. However, I think I’ll wait to see just how nasty flying is going to be before making any plans.

And I wonder if children under the age of two are included in the stuff you aren’t allowed to hold on your lap during the last hour of flights. It would be very interesting to see the result if the airlines made a rule that even babies had to have their own purchased tickets and be in car seats during take off and landing.

Comment by scdave
2009-12-29 09:33:46

just how nasty flying is going to be ??

How much Nastier can it get ?? There was a day when a trip to the airport was the “Gin-Up” for the trip ahead…

 
 
Comment by Lip
2009-12-29 11:29:20

Are there any states that aren’t in fiscal meltdown? I would be interested to hear of any that are doing well.

Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 12:18:53

Wyoming’s doing pretty well, even with the drop in oil prices.

Comment by Lip
2009-12-29 15:14:40

Figures, not too many extra jobs I imagine, but at least there is one.

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Comment by bink
2009-12-29 11:44:30

I’m headed to Hawaii at the end of the month and will be touring most of the islands. I was surprised at how cheap it was compared to the last time I went. I’m using air miles to pay for the flight and first class was only marginally more expensive than coach.

Now if only Crash and Burn would let me Crash on his porch. ;)

Comment by Crash and Burn
2009-12-29 15:12:49

Bink, if you get here drop me a line at JJOHNROSSJRataol.com. The porch is open but you got to move dogs to find a spot.

 
 
 
Comment by oxide
2009-12-29 06:52:56

From Bloomibergi:

“Stay Union-Free” Pushed by Target, Michaels as Obama Law Looms

By Holly Rosenkrantz
Dec. 29 (Bloomberg) — Target Corp. retooled a training video to warn workers against a bill that would make union organizing easier. Michaels Stores Inc. told investors “our businesses could be impacted” by the measure. Enrollment in Jackson Lewis LLP’s “How to Stay Union-Free” seminars tripled.

Companies are rallying to fend off a so-called card-check law sought by labor leaders and backed by President Barack Obama. While the bill stalled in Congress this year as health- care legislation dominated debate, anti-union groups say they expect the president and Democrats to deliver next year on a compromise version of the legislation.

————-

I never belonged to a union, so I never did understand this card-check thing. There are some nasty labor practices out there (Wal-mart is a poster boy for this) which a union could prevent, but unions have a history of overplaying their hands. And these workers aren’t exactly rocket surgeons. Wouldn’t it be most effect to allow the union to strike, and then hire scabs from the ample pool of unemployed? You could train new employees in about an hour and a half.

Comment by Ol'Bubba
2009-12-29 07:10:54

Rocket surgeons?

Comment by In Montana
2009-12-29 07:17:08

lol

 
 
Comment by Eddie
2009-12-29 09:29:14

Card check in a nutshell.

Instead of voting to unionize using a SECRET BALLOT, the process would require 50% of employees to sign a card indicating they want a union. Then a union is sanctioned.

But there is nothing to worry about really. As we know, unions are run by the most ethical people out there. And there would be absolutely no intimidation of employees by union thugs to sign that card.

They might as well call card check the INTIMIDATE AND THREATEN BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY TO UNIONIZE BILL.

Comment by michael
2009-12-29 12:12:32

my mother crossed a picket line to work once. people she had worked with for years were screaming insults at her. she had tree mouths to feed at home.

unions (these days) are horrible…but i think human beings in general are horrible so…

Comment by X-philly
2009-12-29 15:02:17

Last time Boeing Ridley struck, the office workers’ tires were punctured because the union brothers had laid tacks and nails on the driveway leading to their parking lot.

This time a couple months ago when the union was threatening to strike, mgmt. set up a surveillance trailer to document any vandalism. A settlement was reached before any petty crime occurred.

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Comment by VaBeyatch in Virginia Beach
2009-12-29 09:51:02

Shoot, the walmarts near us must keep a staff of 10 people. 2 or 3 checkout lines open with 50′ lines.

Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-12-29 10:22:44

Every Wally World in the country operates that way, even on Saturdays.

I really don’t understand why they put 40+ checkout lines in their stores. I’ve never seen more than 5 of them open at any one time.

Comment by michael
2009-12-29 13:50:22

i think it’s a control issue…so they can audit their registers from time to time. better to have extra registers that can open while the others are closed to audit the cash.

just a guess.

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Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-12-29 10:39:40

“Enrollment in Jackson Lewis LLP’s “How to Stay Union-Free” seminars tripled.”

Easy.

Federal minimum wage = $7.50

Increase new hire wage by .03 cents…$7.53

Workers forget all about joining any unions. ;-)

(Oh, and find the most “useful” worker…glare menacing at her…and say: “I don’t like you, you’re fired!” …that’ll make the rest of the work force straighten up and fly right…)

 
Comment by lavi d
2009-12-29 10:40:00

And these workers aren’t exactly rocket surgeons.

I am DEFINITELY stealing that.

Comment by Ol'Bubba
2009-12-29 13:19:52

I wonder if one needs to take plenty of trigonology and biometry classes to become a rocket surgeon.

 
Comment by oxide
2009-12-29 13:51:26

It’s not originally mine; it was just floating round the intertubes.

 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 20:04:42

Yeah, yeah unions are bad. Thank god the company has your best interest at heart and it’s really easy to get the EEOC to move against violations. :lol:

You know the old saying, if you treat your employees decently, they’ll never even think about a union.

I’m not exactly pro union, but it’s often a choice between BOHICA for no money or BOHICA for better money. Not much of a choice, but most will always go for the money. Being an “escort” is far better than being a punk.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 07:05:21

NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. employers expect to hire more new workers in 2010 than they did in 2009, a sign the U.S. recession may be easing its grip, research showed on Tuesday.

One-fifth of employers plan to add full-time, permanent employees next year, up from 14 percent in 2009, according to CareerBuilder.com, an online jobs site that surveyed more than 2,700 hiring managers and human resource professionals.

Just 9 percent said they plan to cut head count in 2010, down from 16 percent in 2009, according to the nationwide survey.

“There’s definitely an uptick. The number of employers who say they’re going to add full-time workers is up from last year, and that is very good news,” said Michael Erwin, senior career advisor at CareerBuilder.

Yet 61 percent of employers said they do not plan to change staffing levels, showing a degree of caution, he said.

“Employers are waiting to see what the economy does and what the new year brings,” he said.

Comment by CincyDad
2009-12-29 08:45:21

So, the survey for 2009, made this time last year, were….

14% of employers would add permanent jobs
16% of employers would reduce permanent jobs
70% of employers - no change in permanent jobs

good thing they didn’t survey how MANY jobs fell into each category. Otherwise, 6 million net lost jobs would suggest these figures are not reliable.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 20:10:19

Wasn’t there a survey of CFOs that was posted here just the other day that said there would be NO significant hiring for 2010?

As I’ve said, I’ve seen 6 recessions in my life and the job situation was worse than ever after each one.

Will it be “different this time?” :lol:

 
 
Comment by BlueStar
2009-12-29 07:06:46

“I’ve never witnessed anything like it. It’s unprecedented,” said Sullivan, who has worked in the state’s assessment agency since the mid-1960s.

- Md. home assessments to fall an average 19.7% over three years.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-md.assessments29dec29,0,1376713,full.story

And the squeeze continues…

While down here in Fort Worth I had my RE taxes go up 30% in 3 years while actual housing prices were flat +/- 2%. When I drive around town there are very few For Sale signs but they are 99% by realtors. I never see for sale by Owner anymore.

Comment by scdave
2009-12-29 09:39:30

Fort Worth I had my RE taxes go up 30% in 3 years while actual housing prices were flat +/- 2% ??

And thats why they can balance their budget each year…There is NO limit on increasing the property tax…No state income tax has its trade-offs…

 
 
Comment by jess
2009-12-29 07:28:04

Well , we’ll have to go buy cat & Dog food today . Two houses where the Renters just went , and left their pets . Lucky it’s rural ,so they are outside.. No we won’t call animal control yet , because they put them ”down” almost immediatly. The Cats will leave soon because cats always leave if the People are not around . The dogs are more problemic because they tend to stay around and be hopeful ..Ah well , this hard-hearted landlord will just keep feeding ‘em .

Comment by Asparagus
2009-12-29 07:35:25

Oh man. The pets always get me. The eyes start watering…

Comment by SaladSD
2009-12-30 01:36:48

Those Humane Society TV ads make me weep. My favorite pets have always been foundlings ….

 
 
Comment by Rancher
2009-12-29 07:52:25

We’ve had people drive down the road into the
ranch yard and stop, get out, put down the box,
and turn around and leave. So we have a full
compliment of yard dogs and barn cats. Better
than just letting them starve, but the ##%#@ nerve.

 
Comment by Lane from s.c.
2009-12-29 08:56:08

Death to those people. I mean it!! Scum of the earth. On a better note; We just rescued another dog a few weeks ago, she is cool….boxer mix puppy. We have 5 now.

Lane

 
Comment by Elanor
2009-12-29 09:32:47

It never fails to amaze me when I hear these stories. These people have pets because why? They obviously don’t think of the animals as family members. I just don’t get it.

 
Comment by scdave
2009-12-29 09:46:27

As far as I am concerned owning a pet is a privilege and not a right…It just sucks when I see some of the people who are allowed to have pets…You just know its going to end badly…I wish I were a billionaire….I would solve this problem once and for all or go broke trying…

Comment by polly
2009-12-29 11:57:02

Hoarders last night had one house with 5 cats (they had been forced to give up 20 or so a few months previously) and 17 dogs including some very new puppies. All were removed. The wife was crying and ranting about the animals even as her kids were facing their first few days in foster care. Animals were all OK after significant vet care and were adopted.

 
 
 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2009-12-29 07:29:32

Plan on donating? Consider Uncle Sam
Jeanne Sahadi, CNNMoney.com

You’ve probably heard about the country’s giant debt load - $12 trillion and rising.

Did you know you can help reduce it?

Under a little-known law enacted in 1961, Uncle Sam accepts tax-deductible contributions to pay down the country’s debt. Not that the Treasury Department does much to publicize the program. You can find it under the header “Accepting Gifts” in the U.S. Code. Or, if you’re not an avid reader of dusty legal books, you can check the FAQ section on the Web site of the Bureau of Public Debt, an agency within Treasury. Or flip to page 91 of the IRS’ 2009 Instruction Booklet for Form 1040.

Contributions made are typically small — under $100. But there have been a few humdingers over the years. The largest single gift ever made was in 1992 for $3.5 million, said Mckayla Braden, a spokesperson for the Bureau of the Public Debt. For fiscal year 2009, all donations totaled just over $3 million. That’s well more than what was donated in any single year in the decade prior. But it’s far less than the nearly $21 million collected in 1994.

The money credited to the “Gifts to Reduce the Public Debt” account in theory reduces the amount of money the government has to borrow to finance its debt. But the dent is not deep or lasting.
“We might have to finance a tiny bit less that week,” Braden said.

The nuts and bolts
So who are the folks who send Uncle Sam money of their own volition? “Usually someone dies and leaves a gift. And many contribute regularly,” Braden said. “On average, we get five donations a week.” Sometimes, she said, a large donation is made by an estate but is paid out over a number of years. The names and addresses of the donors are not released. And blessedly, unlike most charities that reward you for giving by bombarding you with solicitations for more money, Uncle Sam will acknowledge your gift but then never bother you again.

There are two ways to give. One is to send a check directly to the Bureau of Public Debt, an agency within the Treasury Department. The address: Attn: Dept G, Bureau of the Public Debt, P.O. Box 2188, Parkersburg, WV 26106-2188. The other is to include a check — separate from any tax payment you make - with your federal income tax return. Hate writing checks? You soon may be able to donate online. “We are going to make it very easy in the future to make gifts to reduce the public debt through Pay.gov on a regular basis,” Braden said.

Would you give?
CNNMoney.com’s video team took to the streets of New York to ask random passers-by if they were aware of the program. No one was.
When asked if they’d contribute now that they know, the majority said that wouldn’t be happening. One woman put it this way: “They can use my tax dollars to do that and work it out.” One man was a little more blunt. “Hell no. Hell no.” But others weren’t so put off.
“I think I could give $10 to $20. And if everyone could do that it would make a good dent in the debt,” another woman said. Another man figured he could “help the government out” with a hundred bucks. Of course, with the national debt at $12 trillion, it would take more than a few $100 contributions to get back to even — 120 billion of them, in fact. Some lawmakers say ‘institutional insurrection’ is needed for Congress to deal with the debt.

Comment by combotechie
2009-12-29 07:58:47

“Uncls Sam accepts tax-deductable contributions to pay down the country’s debt.”

Lol. So, to avoid paying taxes I should give my money to the tax collector?

Comment by Jim A.
2009-12-29 08:07:46

As logical as “I have to buy a more expensive house to maximize my tax deduction,” and we used to hear THAT alot.

 
 
Comment by SFC
2009-12-29 08:43:58

Or you could cut out the middleman, go to Wall Street and give money directly to the guys coming out of Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan.

Comment by iftheshoefits
2009-12-29 09:11:05

But you wouldn’t get the tax deduction!

Comment by X-philly
2009-12-29 11:36:18

That sounds like a plan. Maybe take in a show beforehand while we still have some money.

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Comment by Kim
2009-12-29 09:02:21

If Congress would quit raising the debt ceiling - and freeze it in progressively lower increments - then maybe more folks would be inclined to contribute.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2009-12-29 11:41:59

“…Another man figured he could “help the government out” with a hundred bucks. Of course, with the national debt at $12 trillion, it would take more than a few $100 contributions to get back to even — 120 billion of them, in fact.

You know those are rather large numbers, I’m gonna have to consult with someone who truly understands such things in context of “all things considered”…and besides he’s a royal “Knight”, he’d never “mislead” me…”Hello, hey could you please have Mr. Sir Greenisspent send me an email at his earliest convenience… ;-)

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 20:18:26

While I think everyone should pay their fair share of taxes after taking fair deductions, why the hell would anyone in their right mind voluntarily give our current government their money? :lol:

 
Comment by mtnbikegirl
2009-12-29 21:37:28

I usually like to give to charities where most of the donation goes to the people it was intended to help…not to administration costs.

 
 
Comment by Englishman In NJ
2009-12-29 07:38:54

Say it ain’t so!!

These stories of deprivation and decline just tear at my heart. How about we all organize a whip round for this struggling group of American heroes?

What we really need here is a latter day Dickens to document and articulate this abject misery and suffering………

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=apRlVjdTDOLc&pos=15

Comment by Lip
2009-12-29 08:34:31

Hehehe,

Ever find that house in ORO Valley?

Comment by Englishman In NJ
2009-12-29 08:51:59

No, we just haven’t had the chance to get out there again yet.

If I can hang on here in the NY area for another three years and save up some more money before we go out to AZ that would be the ideal thing. The twins will then be 4 years old and close to ready to settle into school.

We have three areas we want to explore before then: Oro Valley, Sedona and Carefree/North Scottsdale. We know Sedona and Carefree well since I have been attending industry conferences and vacationing there for the past ten years. Love both areas so much, but then someone I respect mentioned that Oro Valley and parts of the Tucson area were great for raising a family so I broadened our search a bit.

Hard to say if I can hang on here for that much time. Over time it’s easy to become anaethetized to all the BS on WS and just get on with your job, other times it’s just frankly depressing to see the relentless crap that goes on.

Not to rant on too much (hey, it’s slow here this week) but I see very little change in attitudes and behaviour. The sense of entitlement is as pervasive as ever as far as I can see. The sheer hypocrisy is what gets to me though.

Christmas day at my in-laws was funny. My high-living BIL is now renting his TWO FL properties (waiting for the market to come back before he sells). My other even higher-living BIL has just purchased a $15,000 snowmobile for his ten-year old kid. What’s so amusing is that his wife (my wife’s sister) is now employed by us for a few hours a week to help out with the kids…..$15 per hour. You really can’t make this stuff up, can you.

Sorry, I know you didn’t ask about any of this other stuff, as I say, very slow week here.

Comment by arizonadude
2009-12-29 09:03:45

Isnt sedona still pretty pricey these days?It is nice but it seems overpriced to me.

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Comment by Englishman In NJ
2009-12-29 09:11:55

Haven’t looked into house prices closely yet since we are some time away from actually moving but I expect all these areas to fall in price between now and then anyway.

I think all three areas we are considering are currently pricey from what I’ve seen. I’m expecting North Scottsdale to come down very significantly though. The overbuilding in that area has to be seen to be believed. Many vacation homes of course, and they will be first to go as the noose tightens. Sedona is so beautiful though, we love hiking and being outdoors alot and I want the girls to live that kind of life as they grow up, not in some super-crowded area with horrible weather and surrounded by some of the most unpleasant people I’ve ever met. New Jersey and me…NOT perfect together.

 
Comment by MightyMike
2009-12-29 11:44:17

I would agree that prices in Scottsdale should come down a lot. I live in (mostly blue collar) South Scottsdale and we’re getting some of our first foreclosures just now. It may take a few more years before prices bottom out.

Also, if you’re going to move from NJ to Scottsdale for the weather, I would suggest spending a week or two here in the middle of July. Spend an hour or so a day walking around in the afternoon heat and then consider the fact that that outrageous heat lasts for four months every year. You may decide that it’s worth it to avoid the winter in New Jersey, or maybe not.

 
 
Comment by scdave
2009-12-29 09:55:40

before we go out to AZ that would be the ideal thing ??

Englishman….Boy I tell ya…If I was committed they way you are to go to Sedona or Tucson I would hook up with Ben for most of Arizona or Slim for Tucson and I would pay them for their time…And, I would do it now if at all pooissible…Interest rates being the primary driver…

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Comment by lavi d
2009-12-29 11:03:46

Sorry, I know you didn’t ask about any of this other stuff, as I say, very slow week here.

I personally love a lot of the anecdotal stuff I read here. Thanks!

I also love Tucson. I often say that if I could live anywhere - and not have to travel to work every day - I’d live in San Diego. But if I have to go to work, then Tucson is #1.

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Comment by Lip
2009-12-29 11:09:04

Englishman in NJ,

Those are all fine areas to visit and/or live.

Not sure if you’re interested, but this zip (85086) has many things to offer and depending on what you’re looking for, deals can be had for the next couple of years. There is a decent country club with two awesome golf courses, horse properties on the edge of national land, small town atmosphere with access to high end IT ionfrastructure, etc.
Note that this area has had conctrained freeway access but they’ve just about doubled the freeway, so interest in the area is expected to increase soon.

Been kind of slow here too. People keep thinking everything will be going back to normal, only “normal” isn’t going to be what they think it is.

Here is an example of some housing in the area. http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/35507-N-Via-Tramonto—_Phoenix_AZ_85086_1097094340?gate=msn&source=a2mszh1t042

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Comment by Left LA
2009-12-29 12:52:39

Right next to a large public gun range - nice!

 
Comment by Lip
2009-12-29 15:24:42

3 things Left LA:

1)The zip has many nice, large homes that are probably going for about 60-70% of the areas our dear British friend mentioned.
2)The gun range has moved and is about 5 miles west of that house that I referenced.
3) What’s wrong with guns? Hearing an occaisional crackle would probably make you feel right at home if you really left LA.

To be honest I would rather live in Sedona or N Scottsdale. I only mentioned this area because there are many excellent homes in an almost as nice area.

 
Comment by Englishman In NJ
2009-12-29 17:04:27

Thanks for the input Lip.

It’s amazing what you get get for under $500K once you get out of the NY area. I understand that $460K isn’t exactly cheap, but compare it to some of the lame shacks in NNJ that go for $700+ and you start to get a really distorted view of “value”.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 20:32:29

In Houston, 300K will get you a very, very nice 3-4000sqft in a very, very nice neighborhood. 3 car garage.

150K will get you a nice 2000sqft in a nice neighborhood. 2 car garage.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2009-12-29 08:33:23

I’ve lived in So Ca since I was 4, and this is the first year I’m going to see the Rose Parade floats (post parade display). The Metro was the deal maker. We’re skipping the chaos of 150,000 people on the 1st, and going on the 2nd.

Comment by scdave
2009-12-29 11:04:08

first year I’m going to see the Rose Parade floats ??

One of the “Must Do” things on the agenda for the Mrs. & I…

 
Comment by In Montana
2009-12-29 11:13:32

I did that once. What a party! The Budweiser rig & horses got the most applause. Weather nearly always excellent on 1/1.

 
 
Comment by SUGuy
2009-12-29 09:26:35

This is completely repulsive. Please remove this man. We need to get normal people into politics and get these freaks out. We should vote them out? Liberman is an evil pig. I don’t like people like him.

Connecticut Senator Joe Lieberman, who began openly and aggressively angling for a war with Iraq just weeks after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, and who has been the most ardent advocate for expanding the U.S. occupation of Afghanistan, appears to be determined to use the thwarted Christmas Day attack on a Northwest Airlines flight as an excuse to launch another crusade for another war.

Lieberman, the neoconservative solon who wanted to be the Secretary of Defense in the administration of John McCain (his 2008 candidate for president) and who would gladly play the same role in the administration of a Sarah Palin or any other saber-rattling Republican, is proposing the launch of a new preemptive war on Yemen.

Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the 23-year-old Nigerian accused of attempting to explode a plastic device aboard a flight from Amsterdam to Detroit on Friday, has told authorities that he traveled to Yemen to link up with al-Qaida operatives.

Lieberman admitted that in a Fox New interview that he was “not sure” whether the Nigerian succeeded in making contact with the individuals he “reached out to” in Yemen.

But “not sure” is good enough for Lieberman

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/509825/joe_lieberman_how_about_another_war

Comment by Sleepr Cell
2009-12-29 13:28:25

Lieberman is a complete tool and who know’s what he even really believes at this point. It’s all just petulant grandstanding. Thank Dog he didn’t get elected back in 2K knowing what we now know about his character (or lack thereof)

If Reid has any balls at all he will say ‘caucuss be dammed’ and strip Looserman of his chairmanships once and for all.

Chances of that happening? about .000009 by my reconning.

 
Comment by ahansen
2009-12-29 14:24:58

It was my understanding that as a US Senator, Lieberman was sworn to uphold the laws and Constitution of the United States of AMERICA– but obviously the man has other political allegiances.

Why do the good people of Connecticut keep electing this human flatworm? I’d rather stick my head in a chitbucket….

 
Comment by cashedin05
2009-12-29 21:21:30

Wow, you lefties like to eat your own.

Comment by ahansen
2009-12-29 21:35:10

Wow, your civics are blindered.

 
 
Comment by rms
2009-12-30 01:05:12

Lieberman serves the Kingdom, and you will bend the knee in his presence!

 
 
Comment by packman
2009-12-29 09:31:07

So - to follow up on yesterday’s post on the mysterious treasury purchases. That was in regards to a newsletter from Sprott Asset Management (will repost link in a minute).

To summarize - the newsletter presents how there’s been a rapid growth during 2009 in the “Other Treasury issues” line item for treasury holders. This is under the general “Household sector” heading, and is apparently just a general catch-all for treasury holdings that don’t fit into other categories. In essence, they’re purchases that are as yet unaccounted for, in terms of who holds the treasuries. These grew from $78.9 Billion at the end of 2008 to $609.2 Billion at the end of Q3; an increase of over $528 Billion - nearly half of our debt growth during the period.

I went back and looked at past z1 data (where this data comes from), and found that actually this line item has been that high in the past - in fact peaked above $700 Billion back at the end of 1996. The main difference is that back then the rise to that value took about 8 years, and was less of a rise (starting at a base of $180B in 1986, rising to almost $700B by 1994). So the rate of rise is the remarkable thing - about 10 times as fast in 2009. I’ll post a chart in a minute.

Interestingly, the value dropped rather dramatically from 1999 -> 2002, from $628B to $90B. The overall debt level itself though remained fairly flat - in fact was down some. So I looked to see if there was a corresponding rise in other categories. There was, in two categories mainly -

- “Rest of the world”, i.e. foreign holdings, rose by $230 Billion.
- “Monetary authority”, i.e. Fed purchases, rose by $151 Billion.

The rest of the line items (there are about 30) had a mixture of smaller numbers; I didn’t do all the calculations but presumably they add up.

This all seems to point to a couple of interesting things:

- It appears that maybe the Treasury or Fed just simply falls behind in accounting for who’s buying the securities, and until they do catch up, the ones that they know have been sold but haven’t yet been accounted for fall into this “Other Treasury issues” line item. This doesn’t really seem devious so much, however is very misleading and bad, because they’re publishing knowingly wrong numbers with a big fudge factor, rather than just delaying the publishing until they can count all the beans.

- It also appears that there is some straw buying going on perhaps. The Fed purchased $151 Billion back in the early 2000’s - this was known and advertised. However rather than this being a purchase of *new* securities - it was (for all intents and purposes) a purchase of existing securities; additional securities weren’t actually purchased, they just moved from the “unknown” bucket to the “held by the Fed” bucket.

- Specifically for 2009 - we have a rapidly-growing amount of these “unknown” in addition to the authorized and known Fed purchases (of $300 Billion). Perhaps these “unknown” holders are just foreign beans waited to be counted, or perhaps they’ll end up as future Fed purchases? It’ll be interesting to see. It’ll be particularly interesting since the level of debt will still be rising rapidly over the next few years; if this “Other Treasury issues” line item grows accordingly I’ll bet it’ll start really attracting a lot of attention.

P.S. Thanks to Professor Bear for the link yesterday. Where did you find that by the way? If it’s from some other blog, it may be worth adding some commentary back there.

Comment by packman
2009-12-29 10:18:10
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-30 00:23:38

Maybe the Congressional audit people can ask the Fed to explain the composition of that interesting “Other” category…

 
 
Comment by Englishman In NJ
2009-12-29 10:36:42

Thanks for posting on this issue - please keep us updated, I’m very interested in this topic.

Cheers.

Comment by packman
2009-12-29 10:48:49

Whenever the z1 data comes out (quarterly) I always get it and pull out the data I’ve been watching; there’s tons of data in there (inaccurate as it may be). I’ll keep an eye on this now and post anything interesting. Next data won’t be out until March though.

 
 
Comment by Sleepr Cell
2009-12-29 11:46:59

Yeah, I read that myself yesterday, linked from Automatic Earth.

Here’s the original. http://sprott.com/Docs/MarketsataGlance/12_2009_MAAG.pdf

The implications are obvious. Is the treasury really trying to fluff up the apeal of U.S. debt because no one else wants to touch it with a fifty foot carbon fiber pole? Scary stuff and what will it do to intrest rates when the ‘fluffing’ gets exposed or no longer works?

 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-12-29 09:46:20

“We’re at a meltdown point and have to find new ways to manage the situation.”

Florida Supreme Court orders mediators to be first step in foreclosure cases

By Kimberly Miller
Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Posted: 1:15 p.m. Monday, Dec. 28, 2009

Florida’s troubled homeowners and their lenders will increasingly meet at the bargaining table under a state supreme court order issued today that aims to reduce a foreclosure overload.

The administrative order written by Chief Judge Peggy Quince creates a statewide program that requires mediation on all homesteaded properties before a foreclosure hearing is held.

It guarantees homeowners will have an audience with their lender to discuss whether a loan modification or short sale is an option instead of foreclosure.

It also means lenders will be doing more work on the front end of the foreclosure process, and paying for it.

Today’s order makes lenders responsible for paying a maximum mediation fee of $750 per case, which would help pay for the mediator and cover administrative costs.

Judges hope the mediation requirement will reduce the thousands of foreclosure cases clogging the system — a situation called “horrifying” in an August report issued by Florida’s Task Force on Residential Mortgage Foreclosure Cases.

In Palm Beach County alone, more than 27,550 foreclosures were filed between January and November this year — nine times the amount filed in all of 2004.

“Right now, we have a court system that is going to break with the volume of foreclosures,” said Boca Raton real estate Attorney Marlyn Wiener. “We’re at a meltdown point and have to find new ways to manage the situation.”

Each circuit court will approve its own mandatory program, and will have some leeway in how it is managed.

The main parts of the order, however, are the same statewide.

Every residential homesteaded property foreclosure will be referred to mediation, unless the lender and borrower agree otherwise. There are also waivers in the event a homeowner cannot be located or refuses mediation.

The homeowner must be referred to foreclosure counseling prior to mediation.

The mediation must take place no earlier than 60 days and no later than 120 days after a foreclosure suit is filed.

And the mediation must be provided by a non-profit organization with mediators specially trained and court certified in mortgage foreclosure matters.

“We’re not interested in forcing people to settle, but there seems to be an inability to communicate between the borrower and the lender,” said 11th Circuit Court Judge Jennifer Bailey, chairwoman of the statewide task force.

Judges say they often hear homeowners complain they couldn’t reach their lender, or that their paperwork was repeatedly lost.

Court-ordered mediation may remedy that. But no one thinks it’s a final solution, and some aren’t even sure it’s a good idea.

Sharon Bock, Palm Beach County’s comptroller and clerk of the circuit court, said she’s concerned that while it may alleviate judge workload, it could increase paperwork for her employees.

Foreclosure mediation has been optional in Palm Beach County for at least a year. Bock believes mandatory mediation isn’t a role the court should play.

“This process moves the courts from calling balls and strikes, from creating a level playing field, into the realm of a social service agency, picking sides,” she said.

Real estate attorney Wiener said the order does benefit the homeowner.

“It’s making a judgment call. Who do the courts want to help? If we are going to help, we’re going to help the homeowners,” Wiener said.

A handful of circuit courts began requiring foreclosure mediation earlier this year, including the 19th, which covers Martin, St. Lucie, Indian River and Okeechobee counties.

The Collins Center for Public Policy handles mediation for the 19th Circuit Court.

Of 2,850 mediations the center has handled, about 2,000 resulted in settlements reached out of court.

“I’m optimistic, but this is not a cure all,” said 19th Circuit Court Judge Shields McManus. “There are a lot of investment homes being foreclosed on and there are a lot of cases that don’t settle because the people simply have no way to pay the mortgage.”

Comment by Shizo
2009-12-29 12:46:58

Time to strap on my Eddie “blinders”. Blah, blah, blah, we can’t hear you.

 
 
Comment by Elanor
2009-12-29 09:52:59

Cook County RE assessments came out recently. Our property’s assessed valuation went down about 5 %. Wish I knew what (if anything) that might mean for the actual tax bill. We keep getting these letters from attorneys wanting us to hire them to dispute our property taxes. I used to think of property taxes as a necessity to keep the community nice and the schools good, but the longer you live in a place, the more boneheaded decisions and waste of tax dollars you see.

The biggest chunk of our taxes goes to the high school district. The local high school is a hopelessly antiquated “historic” facility near Lake Michigan. There is a vocal contingent of people who want to spend beaucoup bucks gutting and renovating these early 1900’s era buildings. The school district already owns a great property a bit further west (away from the lake) that houses the freshman campus and would serve quite well for a new high school. The current high school location would fetch a huge price if they sold off the property for housing, raising sufficient funds to offset a good part of the new high school construction. It’s going to be war between the traditionalists (aka snobs) and the pragmatists over this issue. Unfortunately I can’t bet on the pragmatists to win.

Comment by Lip
 
 
Comment by laurel, md
2009-12-29 10:21:30

Yesterday the wife suggested that we drive up tp Philly to see the Princess Diane special exhibit at the National Constituion Center (a big new museum on Independence Hall square). The place was mobbed with thousands of women at $25 ticket. Even with prepurchased timmed tickets there was a long wait. While she went to that I walked across the street to the Philly Mint, and did the free tour. The mint is very automated and puts out millions of coins a day.

Then I walked across the street again to the Philly Fed Reserve. They had nice interactive displays explaining their function, and how they are constantly protecting the US/world economy. The exhibit was so good that it would have caused even the most stone cold anti-Fed HBBer to tear up.

Comment by SUGuy
2009-12-29 10:42:00

The exhibit was so good that it would have caused even the most stone cold anti-Fed HBBer to tear up

Would those be tears of happiness or tears of sorrow?

 
Comment by Englishman In NJ
2009-12-29 10:56:28

The whole Princess Di thing was very worrying for me. The hysteria and over-reaction was something I will never forget. About a week afterwards I mentioned in the pub that it’s a shame that anyone dies in such circumstances but I really don’t care any more about her than anyone else in a similar position. Also, I opined that she was absurdly over-rated and self-obessed, a typical product of that second-level “elite society” types that produce nothing but column inches while they have their snouts deep in the public coffers.

The reaction was something i’ve never seen before. Usually quiet, thoughtful free-thinking types along with anti-monarchists etc. erupted, just like the pro-royal conservatives and shouted at me hysterically. No humour, debate, rational comment, or anything. It left me a bit shaken to be honest. That people can be taken in by the MSM and cultural elites to be so amazingly unquestioning of everything surrounding the topic was very sobering.

This was an unremarkable woman who rolled the dice on her marriage and it all came unstuck then involved herself in a taxpayer funded lavish lifestyle with all the attendant PR experts involved.

But the reaction of normal people really did show me why people like Hitler can be so successful.

Di - a sad ending to a pitiful, pathetic woman.

My mother, like so many others, queued up for hours to sign a “condolence book” at a local church. First time she’s been to church in 10 years. What a pointless, meaningless waste of time. I asked her why she did it and she couldn’t actually tell me.

THAT is the kind of public hysteria that scares me, when normal, rational decent people get wrapped up in it.

Comment by X-philly
2009-12-29 12:27:44

Real Housewives of Kensington Palace

 
Comment by DennisN
2009-12-29 13:20:46

I have a “Charles and Di royal wedding” tin that candy came in. Right now I use it to scoop kitty litter.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 20:43:36

Psychological warfare is not some nascent technology. Now you also know why the PTB can get away with the crap they do.

Or, as we used to say: “Why? Because they can.”

 
 
Comment by X-philly
2009-12-29 11:07:11

Did you get to any good restaurants?

Comment by laurel, md
2009-12-29 11:39:30

Not this day trip. However we did have a very nice $10 lunch special at a Thia cafe in Chinatown…walking distance from Independence square.

Comment by X-philly
2009-12-29 15:07:09

Now you just gave me a yen for some Thai food.

Pei Wei here I come!

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Comment by polly
2009-12-29 12:26:26

Maybe her stuff will be interesting in a few thousand years?

I road tripped to Philly for the King Tut Exhibit. I have to admit, I wouldn’t go across the street for Di’s things except perhaps in the context of wanting to watch the people get all hysterical.

Though I would point out that at the start of the whole process, she was more a girl than a woman. Wasn’t she 19 or something like that when they got engaged?

Comment by Englishman In NJ
2009-12-29 13:12:25

I think she was only 19 when they actually got married. Might be wrong about that but I do know they married in 1981 (on the same day England beat Australia for the Ashes - Cricket, chaps).

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-12-29 16:08:52

“I road tripped to Philly for the King Tut Exhibit. I have to admit, I wouldn’t go across the street for Di’s things except perhaps in the context of wanting to watch the people get all hysterical.”

polly, you are one amazing woman. :-)

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 10:51:18

Housing Recovery Fails to Bolster Broker Commissions (Update1)

Dec. 29 (Bloomberg) — A surge in home purchases by first- time U.S. buyers is doing little to help real estate agents and brokers who close the deals.

Commissions in 2009 fell to the lowest level in seven years, driven down by sales of low-priced homes to first-time buyers using the federal tax credit. Commissions through November dropped 6.2 percent from a year earlier to $40.6 billion, according to Bloomberg calculations based on the average commission rates from Real Trends Inc. and on home price and sales data from the National Association of Realtors.

The tax credit strengthened only the low end of the market and reduced agents’ pay, according to Steve Murray, president of Real Trends, a residential property research company. The tax benefit and foreclosure sales may lower the national median home price by a record 13 percent this year to $172,700, according to the Chicago-based Realtors’ group. Last month almost 75 percent of sales were for $250,000 or less, the Realtors said.

“The impact of the tax credit has been huge,” Murray said in an interview. “The average commission rate inched up this year and the number of real estate sales have gone up too, but the average price has dropped significantly because of the bulge of first-time buyers.”

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-12-29 16:11:58

“Commissions in 2009 fell to the lowest level in seven years[...]”

Suh-weeeeet! :-)

I guess one downside to the foreclosures moving up into higher-priced segments of the market is that the realtors will see increased commissions. :-(

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2009-12-29 11:54:46

I’m not sure people understood the “stories of deprivation and decline” the NJ Englishman referred to above.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aHqJCK.szfpU&pos=15

“Commissions in 2009 fell to the lowest level in seven years, driven down by sales of low-priced homes to first-time buyers using the federal tax credit. Commissions through November dropped 6.2 percent from a year earlier to $40.6 billion, according to Bloomberg calculations based on the average commission rates from Real Trends Inc. and on home price and sales data from the National Association of Realtors.”

“The tax credit strengthened only the low end of the market and reduced agents’ pay, according to Steve Murray, president of Real Trends, a residential property research company.”

They are trying to make up for lower prices by increasing commission rates as a share of the sales price.

Comment by Kim
2009-12-29 13:37:06

They’ll make it up on volume.

…oh, wait…

Comment by shizo
2009-12-30 00:02:36

:) beautiful…

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 12:17:14

Bad news for housing: Prices flattening

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — Home price gains earlier this year flattened out in October, according to a report issued Tuesday.

The S&P/Case Shiller Home Price index, covering 20 of the largest metropolitan areas in the nation, was unchanged in October, after four consecutive months of gains. The index is down 7.3% from 12 months earlier.

“The turnaround in home prices seen in the spring and summer has faded,” said David Blitzer, chairman of the Index Committee at Standard & Poor’s, in a statement. “Coming after a series of solid gains, these data are likely to spark worries that home prices are about to take a second dip,” he said.

Just seven of the 20 cities recorded gains from a month earlier.

The modest gains earlier this year were in part propped up by government initiatives.

“We’ve seen recent stability because of low interest rates and the impact of the first-time homebuyers tax credit,” said Pat Newport, a real estate analyst with IHS Global Insight.

Prices are down from their all-time highs set in 2006 by 29% for the 20-city index.

Comment by llcarlos
2009-12-29 12:39:27

Flat means “slightly up”. The housing experts on CNBC were pretty funny this morning.

 
Comment by packman
2009-12-29 13:04:08

Anecdotally at least - I see this happening in the median price data for two areas I track - northern VA and Florida, for data thru November - one month ahead of the Case/Shiller data that just came out today. After rising significantly in the spring and summer, prices started falling a couple of months ago, and the fall is accelerating.

It’s the nature result of now paying the piper that we hired a few months ago with the homebuyer tax credit. Demand was pulled forward - we’re now entering that demand hole.

Comment by ACH
2009-12-29 21:15:35

“demand hole”
Surely you jest! This is not a demand hole, but is instead going to spark further sales.
Right?!?

Roidy

 
 
 
Comment by mrktMaven
2009-12-29 12:53:41

If you’re a long time homedebtor with tons of HELOC debt, why couldn’t you take advantage of the government expanded tax credit? What’s stopping you from purchasing a new lower priced home, mailing in the keys to the upside down one, and adding to the shadow inventory?

What’s more, does that qualify as some kind of debt jubilee for savvy debtors?

Heck, couldn’t you arbitrage the deal even if you don’t have a HELOC? Why couldn’t you get a HELOC and buy that cheaper said second house with the HELOC proceeds and then bail on the indebted primary? It might be good opportunity to downsize — free and clear.

This is too easy. There must be a flaw.

Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 13:54:15

I don’t see why not, I would think thousands of people would be buying and bailing. I don’t know of any regulation as to the tax credit that could or would stop someone from doing a buy&bail.

 
Comment by shizo
2009-12-30 00:14:10

I think it is the spread between- “gotta beat my neighbor to it” and, “we can only do this ONCE before the gig is up”…

Makes me wonder how many of the current sales reported are just that- a 1:1 ratio for impending default? Think they have baked that into the cake?

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 13:34:49

Local tax coffers fall lower nationwide.

WASHINGTON (CNNMoney.com) — In another ominous sign for state budgets nationwide, state and local governments reported another drop in overall tax revenue on Tuesday.

General sales tax, individual income tax and corporate income tax were all down in the third quarter of 2009, resulting in an overall 6.7% drop in total tax revenue, compared to the same quarter in 2008, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

This is the fourth consecutive quarter in which tax revenue collection has fallen.

The one bright spot was property tax collection, which showed a slight increase of 3.5%, compared to the same quarter in 2008.

Total taxes collected in the third quarter were $266.5 billion compared to $285.6 billion during the same quarter in 2008.

States are wrestling with some of the worst budget deficits since the Great Depression. Rising unemployment has wreaked havoc on their vital revenue streams of personal income, corporate profits and sales taxes.

Though governors and lawmakers are reluctant to raise taxes, particularly in bad economic times, the current fiscal situation has prompted some to turn to such measures.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 13:46:22

Hundreds More Laid Off by U.S. Fidelis

WENTZVILLE, MO (KTVI-FOX2now.com) - US Fidelis says it plans to lay off hundreds of workers due to economic hardships. In a statement release Tuesday said a rise in the number of people canceling their warranties has forced the company to eliminate jobs. US Fidelis, a Wentzville-based company, is like a broker for extended vehicle service contracts. Just two weeks ago, the company announced a layoff that would affect 15 to 20 percent of its workforce.

U.S. Fidelis has also recently come under scrutiny receiving an “F” from the Better Business Bureau. The BBB has received 1,700 complaints about the company over the past 36 months. One of the complaints is for misleading sales tactics.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 13:49:54

Indiana slashes $297 million from K-12 schools.

Just days before the start of 2010, school administrators are finding out that the state is reducing kindergarten through 12th-grade funding by $297 million, beginning with the January payment.

A press release from Gov. Mitch Daniels’ office says those cuts will be evenly applied to all school corporations in the state using the current funding formula, which means 3.5 percent less state money for districts.

This comes after the governor ordered 20 percent spending cuts at state agencies and 6 percent from higher education. If the new revenue forecast proves accurate, the K-12 reductions, coupled with the previous cuts and use of most, if not all, of the state’s rainy-day reserves, will keep Indiana in the black through the 18 months remaining in this budget cycle, according to the governor’s office.

“We reduced everything else first, and much more deeply, but K-12 education is half the entire budget, and it became unavoidable for it to become part of the solution,” Daniels said in a press release.

 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2009-12-29 13:53:30

X-GSfixr’s Helpful Hint of the day…….

Just had lunch with one of my buddies. We had a blizzard here on Christmas Eve…….he related the story of how he was hijacked into being the family taxi driver for the family get together, as he was the only one that had a properly equipped 4×4. Had to drive 30 miles each way to pick up Aunt Bessie way out in the middle of Bumf##k, Egypt.

The solution? When a blizzard is forecast, start hitting the Jack as soon as the the first flakes hit the ground.

His new “Plan A” for New Year’s Eve.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 13:56:46

Higher-End Homes Face Price Pressure.

Though the cheapest houses on the market may not get much cheaper, more-expensive homes still have further to fall, which will likely slow the broader housing recovery.

The Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller home-price indexes for October are due on Tuesday morning. Economists estimate the index tracking prices in 20 major cities was down 7.7% from a year ago.

That would mark the smallest year-over-year decline since November 2007.

 
Comment by wmbz
2009-12-29 14:02:01

From the transcript of a lengthy interview with veteran commentator Doug Casey comes this:

“Deflation is not only not a bad thing, it can be a very good thing. In a deflationary environment, the purchasing unit the dollar becomes worth more. That rewards people who have saved dollars, the prudent middle class upon which so much in modern society depends, and makes them prone to save more. Inflation makes people very loathe to save because what they’re saving is going down in value. And the solution to this depression we’re entering is not more spending, it’s not more consumption, it’s just the opposite of what these morons in Washington are saying: it’s less consumption and more savings. Savings are capital accumulation, and that’s what’s needed to start new businesses, create more jobs, and so forth in a sustainable way. Creating phony make-work jobs with more debt only serves to make things worse, come reckoning day.”

Comment by packman
2009-12-29 15:32:45

+1

Unfortunately people view deflation as a bad thing, because it’s a symptom of a recession. So they feel that fighting the deflation itself will fix the problem - but they’re treating the symptom not the disease, and in the process just making the disease itself worse.

Deflation is basically just like a fever. It’s a good and very necessary thing to help your body get back to a normal state. You don’t want to purposefully get rid of a fever itself, unless the fever itself takes on a life of its own and becomes a risk to killing you, which is rarely. In the case of economics I’d say it’s never - because natural upward pressures will always exist to prevent “hyperdeflation”. Those natural pressures are of course that simply you can buy so much more stuff now with the money you’ve saved, and eventually people are more apt to start spending because prices are so low. The same principle exists in the opposite direction for inflation - if prices get too high then people just stop buying stuff, since they can’t afford it; this causes prices to stop rising.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2009-12-29 22:07:54

Unless it’s your wage that’s being deflated and not prices. Which usually the case.

 
 
Comment by measton
2009-12-29 15:06:13

People keep asking how Calpers could be so ignorant of the market. It’s not ignorance it’s criminal activity.

Calpers board members must refer any communication regarding current or potential investments to the fund’s chief investment officer, according to a statement today. Board members are prohibited from advocating any course of action on a particular investment outside of board meetings.

The decision follows disclosure by the pension fund that former board member Alfred Villalobos earned more than $50 million in a five-year period acting as a middleman between firms seeking stewardship of some of Calpers $200 billion in assets and the fund’s board and staff.

Similar to Larry Summers earning millions on Wall Street after handing Wall Street access to Harvards endowment. These endowments would be better off putting the money in index funds, and indexed bond funds, then getting rid of most of the board and financial advisors. Big money draws the most dedicated criminals.

Comment by X-philly
2009-12-29 15:11:50

Villalobos earned more than $50 million in a five-year period acting as a middleman between firms seeking stewardship of some of Calpers $200 billion in assets

Last week someone posted about the millions that an agent earned for investing in a failed upscale “lifestyle center” in Florida.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2009-12-29 16:18:55

“The decision follows disclosure by the pension fund that former board member Alfred Villalobos earned more than $50 million in a five-year period acting as a middleman between firms seeking stewardship of some of Calpers $200 billion in assets and the fund’s board and staff.”

How is this not an obvious conflict of interest, and a gross dereliction of his fiduciary duties???

The scumbag should be doing the perp-walk.

 
Comment by rms
2009-12-30 00:29:55

Feds investigate ex-CalPERS officials’ possible link with fallen financier

Published Saturday, Dec. 05, 2009

Federal officials are investigating possible ties between CalPERS’ former chief executive, a controversial former board member and a financier who just pleaded guilty in a New York pension fund corruption case.

Court records show the Securities and Exchange Commission issued a subpoena in June to financier Elliott Broidy, who pleaded guilty Thursday to felony charges that he showered nearly $1 million in illegal gifts on state officials in New York.

The federal enforcement agency demanded records of any contacts Broidy had with former CalPERS CEO Fred Buenrostro and former CalPERS board member Alfred Villalobos, among others.

Broidy’s spokesman, Jim McCarthy, downplayed the significance of the subpoena Friday, saying it merely represents “questions that the SEC asked.”

The SEC’s subpoena and Broidy’s plea represent new turns in a multi-state probe of possible influence-peddling at the California Public Employees’ Retirement System and other major U.S. public pension funds. CalPERS already has said it is investigating its dealings with Villalobos.

Villalobos has earned more than $60 million since leaving the CalPERS board in 1995 by representing private clients seeking investment dollars from the pension fund.

Until this week, Broidy was head of Markstone Capital Group, a Los Angeles private equity firm that obtained a $50 million investment commitment from CalPERS in 2004. Markstone specializes in deals in Israel.

 
Comment by rms
2009-12-30 00:35:03

Snippets:

Even after getting fired when his presence roused controversy, former CalPERS board member Alfred Villalobos earned $9.6 million for pitching a client’s business proposal to the big California pension fund.

Villalobos couldn’t be reached for comment Wednesday.

He is a leading figure in a multistate probe of placement agents, middlemen who seek investments from public pension funds. A kickback scandal involving New York’s fund generated indictments in March, though Villalobos was not named in that case. CalPERS last month hired a law firm to conduct a “special review” of Villalobos and other agents.

The documents released Wednesday show that Villalobos’ son, Alfred Nash Villalobos, helped his father approach CalPERS. The younger Villalobos, a lawyer, was recently indicted on jury-tampering charges unrelated to his father’s business.

He was released on a $100,000 cash bond posted by his father, according to U.S. District Court records in Los Angeles. The younger Villalobos declined to comment through his lawyer.

 
 
Comment by In Montana
2009-12-29 16:29:57

Maybe it may be a coincidence, but I’m finally seeing clear signs of distress on our local CL listings…a short sale near me, a whole subdivision for sale, prices SLASHED!!11! by the builder…these on top of all the unsold condos.

It’s not different here.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-30 00:33:47

It has been long predicted on the HBB that the tail end of the housing bust will hammer the high end. As I have often noted, the lower end will drop further as well, since nobody is ever going to pay more for a crappy house than for a nice one.

* The Wall Street Journal
* AHEAD OF THE TAPE
* DECEMBER 29, 2009

Higher-End Homes Face Price Pressure

* By MARK GONGLOFF

The worst of the subprime-mortgage defaults has likely passed, most analysts agree. That could explain why low-end homes are decreasing as a percentage of total foreclosures, while middle- and high-end homes are taking bigger shares, according to Zillow.com data.

That shift suggests price declines will prove more pronounced in middle and higher-end housing brackets, which haven’t yet fallen as far as the broader market. In San Francisco, high-end prices are down just 25% from their peak, compared with 39% for the broader regional market, according to Case-Shiller data.

Monthly payments for adjustable-rate mortgages, which helped many buyers afford more-expensive homes, could rise next year, either due to payment resets or rising interest rates. That trend threatens more defaults on higher-priced properties, which would weigh on prices.

Further government aid could ease the sting, but may not be enough to offset market fundamentals—it couldn’t stop prices from falling this year.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2009-12-30 00:36:58

* The Wall Street Journal
* DECEMBER 30, 2009

GMAC Set for Another Cash Infusion
U.S. Expected to Lend Firm $3.5 Billion to Help Cover Mortgage Losses; Aid Bill Already at $12.5 Billion

BY DAN FITZPATRICK AND DEBORAH SOLOMON

GMAC Financial Services is close to getting approximately $3.5 billion in additional aid from the U.S. government, on top of $12.5 billion already received since December 2008, according to people familiar with the situation.

The announcement, expected within days, will coincide with GMAC taking additional steps to absorb losses related to its mortgage operations, these people said. The cleanup is designed to return the Detroit-based finance company to profitability in the first quarter of 2010, according to one of these people.

Comment by Mike in Miami
2009-12-30 06:59:47

Always happy to see my hard earned tax dollars at work.

 
Comment by jeff saturday
2009-12-30 07:05:39

What a joke! Print-Extend-Pretend- Repeat.
Gotta keep those house prices up for those poor victim homeowners. To hell with the responsible, let`em collect 1.35% APY on their cd, pay rent, taxes and eat cake!

 
 
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