Value Is In Vogue In Florida
A report from Florida Today. “The man was a truck driver. And his woman companion worked from the house. That was what the Realtor told the Satellite Beach couple about the new renters in their Palm Drive house. In late 2008, owners Kathleen Burgess and Ibrahim Yalcinsoy had moved to Marble, N.C. It was May by the time the Realtor found the renters. The seemingly quiet couple paid their rent on time. They seldom made contact with neighbors. On Dec. 17, the landlord and neighbors found out…they had allegedly been operating a marijuana grow house out of the four-bedroom residence.”
“Burgess said she is angry, and feels helpless by the financial strain. She is not sure if their insurance will pay for the damage. The owners of the Satellite Beach house said damage to their property was about $60,000. ‘They even dug into the foundation of the house to put pipes and wires in,’ Burgess said.”
The Palm Beach Post. “Living in a Singer Island condominium might provide you with a lush lifestyle and a load of top-notch amenities. But you’re not guaranteed heat. Amid one of the longest-lasting cold fronts ever to hit Palm Beach County, condo residents are suffering heat outages, and in some cases learning they don’t have a heating system at all.”
“That’s the case at the Connemara, a Singer Island condo building that never installed a boiler system when its cooling tower was put in place seven years ago. 69-year-old Suzanne Harding said her heater hasn’t worked in days. She said the condo manager has provided few answers. Harding said management told her to buy a space heater, which she considers a safety hazard.”
“Property manager Melody Cook said condos at Connemara were dipping down to 57 degrees. Cook said she directed her residents to purchase space heaters. She said she wasn’t at the condo seven years ago when the board decided against a boiler system, but that it needs a heating system. ‘I feel for the people that have come from a really cold climate to come down here, when they could be home up north with heat,’ property manager Melody Cook said.”
“While the real estate boom spurred 9,000-square-foot single-family homes, the bust has born new models from luxury builders advertised as opulent, yet ‘efficient’ — read slightly smaller, less bling. ‘What happened in 2004, 2005, and 2006, it was all about the bigger the better, that was the mantra,’ said Ken Endelson, chairman of Kenco Communities. ‘We started out in 2003 building houses that were 4,700 square feet, 5,500 square feet. Then, three years later, people wanted 6,000 feet plus.’”
“Nationwide, builders say they are trying to cater to post-recession buyers who still want luxury, but at a discount. A survey released last year by the National Association of Home Builders found that nearly 90 percent of builders are designing smaller homes in response to requests from architects and consumers.”
“They can’t just wipe out luxury elements altogether. For example, Toll Brothers’ new designs may still have stately columns, but they’ll be high-impact foam instead of stone. ‘The market is very wise,’ said Ron Blum, Toll Brothers’ senior vice president, Southeast Florida division. ‘The type of home we’ve designed now is inexpensive to build, and that brings us to a marketplace where we can reach more people.’”
“‘There’s a whole new economic reality and people are much more pragmatic,’ said Scott Agran, president of Boca Raton-based Lang Realty. ‘Builders don’t have a choice but to redesign. They can’t ask for $5 million anymore.’”
The Herald Tribune. “Many of the area’s real estate professionals have been issuing their predictions on whether the Sarasota-Bradenton housing market will see any heat in 2010. The second half of this year, in particular, could be difficult, said Michael Moulton, an agent with Michael Saunders & Company’s Longboat Key office, when government incentives begin to disappear and the potential for another wave of foreclosures looms large. The result? Continued price declines ahead.”
“‘Unlike many, we do not believe we are finished with the downward pressure on prices. In most price points, inventory is still strong and with a ’shadow inventory’ estimated at over 1.5 million properties (at all different price points) about to hit the market, we can still see prices having another 10-15 percent to fall,’ he wrote. ‘Though demand will be strong for the first 120 days of 2010, it could be dwarfed by the surge of properties coming to the market. And a high percentage of that inventory will be at discounted prices.’”
“Buyer of commercial real estate were as scarce as polar bears in 2009 and agents are not optimistic about a return to buying in 2010. ‘We’re hearing 2010 will be a tough year,’ said Renee Richardson Kling, an agent in Sarasota. ‘We’re hoping that because housing is starting to bounce back that people will be more positive, take more risks and start new businesses. But we’re not seeing much of that right now.’”
“Sales in 2009 brought in only $99.8 million — 59 percent less than the $242.8 million generated the year before. There was a 94 percent drop in the dollar volume of bank branch sales, an 86 percent drop in the dollar volume of restaurant sales and an 85 percent drop in the dollar volume of vacant commercial land sales.”
“‘It was a year to forget,’ said Ian Black, who runs a Sarasota-based commercial real estate agency. ‘Buyers are concerned about paying the right price. As they are under no pressure, because supply exceeds demand, they can take their time.’”
“‘We have over 12 percent unemployment in Sarasota and Manatee counties, and that had significant impact on all commercial sectors,’ said John Harshman, another Sarasota commercial real estate broker. ‘We see the trickle down everywhere. Businesses that offer elective medical procedures and therapy — everyone from massage therapists to dentists — are feeling it.’”
“‘We are seeing many banks flush with raw land and no one wants to buy it,’ Harshman said.”
“The foreclosure phenomena is creating severe financial problems for condominium associations across Florida, but none has been hit harder than the Condominiums at Waterside near Englewood in Charlotte County. Three out of four buyers in the 42-unit complex walked away from their mortgages, leaving just six owners to cover $8,000 in monthly expenses and a $16,000 annual insurance bill.’
“‘If it wasn’t for Charlie, Waterside would be an abandoned shell now,’ said Steven Haber, a board member of the Condominiums at Waterside Inc. homeowners association. Haber said Bray took command at the 3-year-old complex as the unpaid bills piled up. In one case, Bray shelled out $1,800 of his own money to keep the water on. In another, he got rid of a transient who had moved into one of the vacant units.”
“For his efforts, Bray initially received $60 a month — $10 from each of the six remaining condo owners — and a promise he would be Waterside’s exclusive rental agent as things recover and it came time to sell some of the units. In the meantime, Bray has filled 16 units with renters, and has received a modest bump in pay of $15 per unit.”
“‘I already had a couple units out there I was renting for people, so I knew the project and I saw the potential there,’ Bray said. ‘I wanted to get in on the ground floor and make it flourish. If I work hard, I hope to rent all of the 42 units in a few years. My hope is everyone will make some money on their purchase eventually.’”
“Foreclosures are hitting Florida’s condominium communities hard — so hard that Fannie Mae has decided to relax some of its lending rules for condo buyers to help restimulate the market. Fannie Mae is sending a team of six mortgage experts into South Florida to reassess ‘hundreds of condo projects’ to see if it can make exceptions to its lending rules, granting a special status designation to allow “lenders to originate and deliver mortgage loans secured by units in these projects to Fannie Mae,” the housing lending giant said in a news release.”
“‘This new initiative is geared toward providing maximum support for Florida’s distressed condo market as we continue to provide liquidity to the housing market more broadly,’ said Karen Pallotta, executive vice president Single Family Mortgage Business. ‘The state’s condo market has been particularly hard hit by the housing downturn and we’re working with the industry and our partners to do all we can to stabilize the market and help spur recovery.’”
“Banks don’t pay maintenance fees and upkeep on foreclosed properties they own, forcing the people who are making their mortgage payments pick up the slack on costs or defer major repairs. It’s the single most important issue facing condominium associations, said Gary Poliakoff, a Melbourne attorney who founded Community Association Leadership Lobby, whether they will survive the economic stress caused by the large number of unit owners and banks not paying assessments, ‘forcing the other unit owner to pick up the bad debt which in some communities is 40-50 percent of the budget.’”
The News Press. “Lloyd Mandel says he fulfilled his part of a bargain with SunTrust Bank: He built a strip mall in south Fort Myers, and leased out most of it. Now Mandel wants to convert his construction loan to a mortgage at the rate agreed upon two years ago when the project got started. But, he says, SunTrust won’t honor the deal, citing various ‘outs’ in the contract such as a drop in the value of the property.”
“If banks start exercising their rights on a large scale to get out of agreements to lend, Mandel said, ‘no piece of commercial property in Lee County is safe if it’s got a mortgage on it.’”
“‘Since mid-November, I bet I’ve had a dozen people call recounting similar fact patterns across the Southeast,’ said Jack Williams, a bankruptcy professor at Georgia State University. ‘The story unfortunately isn’t new to me. I think it’s an indication of things to come.’”
The St Petersburg Times. “Tampa Bay housing starts spiraled to a new low in 2009. Builders broke ground last year on 3,545 homes in Hillsborough, Pasco, Pinellas and Hernando counties. That’s an 83 percent dive from the 21,438 housing starts in the supercharged real estate year of 2005. The previous low was 4,721 in 2008.”
“Tony Polito, housing consultant with Tampa’s Metrostudy, predicted 2010 would be ,marginally better” than 2009. But Tampa Bay’s 12.3 percent unemployment rate is doing builders no favors. ‘All this is smoke and mirrors if we don’t get job growth,’ Polito said.”
“Mortgage borrowing remains a problem. That has forced builders to slash prices. Taylor Morrison, for example, is selling 1,300-square-foot stand-alone houses in Ruskin’s College Chase neighborhood for $99,000, a price not seen in about a decade.”
The News Journal. “The collapse of the country’s housing market and the associated nationwide recession combined to eliminate more than 800,000 jobs in Florida and prevent retirees in other states from selling their homes and moving here, experts say. And those factors slowed, and may have reversed, the state’s population growth.”
“Stanley K. Smith, program director for population studies at the University of Florida’s Bureau of Economic and Business Research, said migration slowed significantly, beginning in 2007. ‘From 2002 through 2006, we had some of the largest population increases ever. We gained about 400,000 a year,’ Smith said.”
“But in 2008 and ‘09, he estimated, the state population probably fell.”
“When Steve Prielozny, head of Bank of Belle Glade , calls his approach ‘conservative’ and ’stick to the basics,’ he’s probably proffering an accurate self-description. The little bank has hefty capital ratios. It’s reporting a profit. And it’s the only financial institution based in Palm Beach County and the Treasure Coast to receive a five-star rating from BauerFinancial for the third quarter.”
“Ask Prielozny for an explanation, and he first credits his customers. When pressed, he describes Bank of Belle Glade’s strategy of relationship banking and its scrutiny of loan applications. ‘We don’t take any real chances if it’s a marginal deal,’ Prielozny said.”
“Bank of Belle Glade is one of only three five-star banks on The Palm Beach Post’s list of 72 institutions that take deposits in the region. Only two years ago, our list counted 14 five-star banks. Since then, downgrades have been the rule. More than a dozen banks on our list became less safe in the third quarter, according to BauerFinancial.”
“Prielozny predicted further fallout. ‘I’m not sure the banking industry has hit bottom yet,’ he said.”
The Orlando Sentinel. “Last year at this time, glum-faced analysts predicted that unemployment in Florida could reach 8.3 percent by the end of 2009. How quaint.”
“As tens of thousands of workers discovered, those estimates were wildly optimistic. The state blew past 8.3 percent by February, on its way to a jobless rate of 11.5 percent in November. In the last two-and-a-half years, more than 736,000 jobs have been lost to the worst recession in 70 years.”
“‘Very difficult choices lay ahead,’ said Sean Snaith, an economist with the University of Central Florida. ‘The new lower rates of population growth are a game-changer.’”
“Short sales and foreclosures continue to clog inventory and will do so for the rest of 2010. Developments planned during the boom will be shelved for years and some will never get built. UCF’s latest projections describe a ‘doggedly persistent surplus of housing’ that will depress prices and new construction. Snaith predicts housing starts won’t recover to 2001 levels until 2013. Homeowners, meanwhile, can only wait until the market finds equilibrium and bottoms out for good.”
“Economists call that process tatonnement, a French word that literally translates as ‘groping.’ To Florida homeowners, said Snaith, the process will feel ‘more like molestation.’”
“Central Florida’s tourism officials anticipate only slightly better treatment in 2010. The rebound is good news, but it may be offset by bargain prices. Travelers — both business and leisure — are still wary about the economy and focused on saving money. So they’ll be looking for deals, pitting airlines, rental car companies and hotels against one another.”
“‘Value is in vogue,’ said local travel-business expert Peter Yesawich.”
“Condominiums and high-end homes, particularly in remote locations, will likely be the last housing type to recover from the slump in Central Florida, experts predict. Not everything is expected to recover at the same pace. Poorly situated condos and luxury homes will likely trail the rest of the market, said Randy Anderson, a University of Central Florida real estate professor, who specializes in commercial but follows residential.”
“‘People were trying to turn Class B and C apartments in places that were not meant for ownership, simply because the financing was there,’ he said. ‘You have to get prices down to … where they make sense as a rental.’”
“Among the problems that have contributed to the downfall of condo prices in the market — from a median of about $114,000 in the third quarter of 2008 to $50,000 a year later — are the legal issues involved when investors consider purchasing units in ‘fractured deals,’ where units were originally offered for sale but then transitioned into rental units. He described it as ‘a lot of brain damage involved in turning those projects.’”
“At present, Anderson said, a lot of condo owners are renting their units for a fraction of their monthly mortgage payments, and that’s not a sustainable plan.”
The Sun Sentinel. “Homeowners stuck while banks mull whether or not to approve short sales could benefit from new federal guidelines that give lenders a 10-day limit to respond to offers. The rules from the U.S. Treasury, which also allow for financial incentives to sellers and lenders, likely will figure prominently in South Florida, as the housing slump meanders into a fifth year.”
“The 83 loan servicers participating in the Obama Administration’s Home Affordable Modification Program, including Bank of America and JPMorgan Chase, are required to follow these guidelines for all borrowers who request short sales or who did not complete loan modifications. The rules do not specifically apply to loans guaranteed by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, which represent about half of all U.S. mortgage debt. The two government-run mortgage companies are working to finalize their own guidelines.”
“The Treasury plan, which must be implemented by lenders no later than April, is meant to help sellers like Dawn Sclafani, who has been waiting since October for her lender to approve a short sale offer on her Margate home. A buyer has offered $155,000, and she owes $233,000. Sclafani said she’s eager for the bank to approve the deal so she can put the experience behind her.”
“‘I want to move on … but I can’t until somebody gives me permission to,’ she said. ‘I’ve heard that this is a horrendous process. The banks are just not very cooperative. I do believe these new rules will help.’”
“The $3,000 cap on short sale proceeds is not sitting well with second lien holders, who have been demanding more money from sellers, the first lenders and real estate agents in exchange for releasing their claims and allowing the short sales to proceed. ‘This is a great program if all these mortgages had only one lien holder,’ said Travis Hamel Olsen, chief operating officer for a company that helps lenders complete short sales. ‘But many of these properties have two liens.’”
“Meanwhile, some local real estate agents remain skeptical of the guidelines. Broward County agent Ron Rosen said he thinks ‘the banks will still play their little games with people and make life difficult for everyone.’ Edward Goldfarb of RE/MAX PowerPro Realty in Davie doubts the Treasury will enforce the new rules. ‘There’s no teeth to them,’ he said.”
“They can’t just wipe out luxury elements altogether. For example, Toll Brothers’ new designs may still have stately columns, but they’ll be high-impact foam instead of stone. ‘The market is very wise,’ said Ron Blum, Toll Brothers’ senior vice president, Southeast Florida division. ‘The type of home we’ve designed now is inexpensive to build, and that brings us to a marketplace where we can reach more people.’”
- “we found we can save all kinds of money by replacing fiberglass shingles with paiper-mache facsimiles”
-”Insulation costs can be lowered by getting illegal-immigrant workers to ball-up newspaper and pack it in the walls”
- “Granite-like cardboard is now used for countertops - you can barely tell it from the real thing.”
- “The unnecessary cost of a foundation can be saved by applying a thin layer of stucco over the ground.”
Yeah. Foam columns. In the most hurricane-prone state in the United States. Ron Blum needs to read “The Three Litte Pigs.” So does anyone who buys from Toll Brothers.
Foam products for exterior trim are the way to go vs. wood… Prohibitively expensive to make even slightly intricate exterior trim out of wood..No warping or dry-rot either…I guess my only concern would be which is more environmentally friendly wood or foam ?? Or neither ??
I just think it’s odd that the writer of the article believes that Toll bros. ever used stone columns in the first place.
And I checked out your link, the window trim is par for what we see on the older housing stock in these parts. Anyone who needs to replace trim on a Delancey Place townhome likely will use trim from the source you linked rather than import an artisan from Italy to do the work.
x-philly,
You… just may be right. IIRC most of the ones I have seen struck me as being fiberglass or other man-made material.
Hard to imagine particle board flooring holding up eight marble columns?
I’m underwater, the mortgage company is after me, I lost my job, my wife is filing for divorce and the kids hate me but I’m still living in my foam products “luxury”.
Only in America !
Wood is biodegradable. Foam isn’t.
Biodegradable is not exactly a plus in houses. It is called rot.
Neither. don’t even like the stone/flagstone veneers all the new developments have.
Consideirng those columns on Toll-bros homes serve no structural purpose, I don’t see the problem of replacing them with foam. Either way, they look lame.
Agreed. Outside of the antebellum home region of the South, columns look silly.
Google this;
http://www.primestucco.com/exterior-foam-trim.html
Click on “Design Galleries” and then “Window Designs” to see what I mean….
Whatever. When you tap your fingers on one of these columns, it makes a hollow, flimsy sound. Just doesn’t say “quality” to me. Fake bling - like a cubic zirconium engagememt ring with gold-plated band.
I looked at the Prime Stucco window designs. In a word, tacky.
“makes a hollow, flimsy sound”
Will that be the new “nosy neighbor” in the Post-Bust America..? Tapping on bogus columns to see if they are indeed genuine?
I’m w/ pressboardbox on this one. If it has to be fake, I’d just as soon be without! In fact one of the things I’ve always wanted to do was slap up a totally bogus McCr@pshack ( likely unpermitted ) just so my friends could get wasted, trash it out and not even worry about it. Kind of like a movie set.
When you tap your fingers on one of these columns, it makes a hollow, flimsy sound ??
I am not talking about columns I am discussing window trim…
I looked at the Prime Stucco window designs. In a word, tacky ??
Better than the stucco crap boxes that they throw up now without any window trim at all.. Furthermore, try making them out of wood sometime…Then show them to me 15 years later…Thats is unless you have a endless checkbook and are willing to pay for Kiln dryed clear heart redwood and the craftman that it would take to complete this kind of work…
“Click on “Design Galleries” and then “Window Designs” to see what I mean….”
Pretentious f*cks…enough to turn me into a commie…
Pretentious f*cks ??
Because there is trim around the windows they are pretentious ?? Try looking at some turn of the century “1900″ designs….Boy…I guess I am on the wrong side of this one…
Interestingly, many of the decorative elements of classical stonework are actually imitations of earlier, functional wooden elements.
“I am not talking about columns I am discussing window trim…”
-I tap on those too. I am terrible! Leave no faux-stone unturned when it comes to exposing cheesiness in modern construction techniques. How about those hollow compressed-cardboard doors? They are everywhere. Cheesy! -but blingy - kind of the new Chinese-product standard that somehow is acceptable.
Interesting enough but a lot of the buildings in City Place downtown West Palm Beach ( Imax movie theatre) already is built like this.
My friend pointed it out to me, very tacky.
“Interestingly, many of the decorative elements of classical stonework are actually imitations of earlier, functional wooden elements.”
-Now available in majestic timeless foam. You can taste the quality! Just don’t put your finger through it.
I’m with scdave on this one — what’s wrong with foam window trim? The alternative is either no trim, wood, or if you’re really fancy, cast concrete, but stucco-wrapped foam looks fine and is an inexpensive, architecturally-pleasing alternative. To me, not much different than a laminated cabinet vs. pure wood. Nice if you can afford the real thing, but if you can’t, what’s the big deal about having the faux?
Not the window trim per se, just the whole look. WTF. Then again I don’t get the whole megahouse thing whether it’s faux classical or NW style log home. In Victorian times they had large families to fill those places.
George Washington’s Mount Vernon has faux stone work siding…just wood planks that have sort of a paint finish with sand spread on it. Looks good from a distance.
My concern lies more with the thought that if the columns are fake, how much more of these huge McMansions are fake? Like, you know, important things.
That, and I really can’t take anyone seriously who says “the market is very wise” with a straight face when talking about the housing market! Not after seeing the junk produced through the Bubble! No, the only wise ones are here, on this board. Troll Brothers ain’t on that list!
Doesn’t this all undermine the very concept of Luxury? Look, if you can’t afford it, you can’t afford it. Put up a Katrina Cottage and spend your money on the landscaping and little fences. I’ve seen this in old Craftsman neighborhoods and it looks stunning.
A lot of the fake stuff is more environmentally friendly and requires much less maintenance.
As the world population increases, we will not all be able to afford the real deal but many deserve pleasing aesthetics.
Here’s a thought. Instead of having faux stuff which is environmentally friendly, why not just NOT have the stuff? Then you’re not using any resources at all. This was the entire point of the Craftsman movement. Victorian design got out of hand in the last 1800’s, so some designers went back to basics and decluttered the decor. “Do not have anything in your home which you do not know to be useful or think to be beautiful.” Out of that came Greene&Greene and Stickly and Frank Lloyd Wright.
why not just NOT have the stuff? …This was the entire point of the Craftsman movement.
But they are still made out of “stuff”.
Besides some people like different looks and low upkeep and we can’t all have heart redwood window trim.
“Furthermore, try making them out of wood sometime…Then show them to me 15 years later…Thats is unless you have a endless checkbook and are willing to pay for Kiln dryed clear heart redwood and the craftman that it would take to complete this kind of work…”
I replaced all of the windows in my past house, and trimmed them out with wood in the historic tradition of the original construction. It was a Cape Cod style bungalow in WA, and a wetter environment would be hard to find. As long as you properly cut, caulk, prime, and paint the wood, it’ll last forever. In fact, the house was built in the 40’s and most of the trim was still perfect, save for some of the sills on the windows. I would have re-used a lot of it, but I changed the window sizes. I recycled what I did not use for other projects.
Everything about our society is coming up faux. Hard times might be the only remedy for all this pretentiousness.
Sammy,
I’m struggling to understand that one myself. All during the boom, people from all walks of life elevated their new “minimum standards”. HDTV or Bust. Anything less, just wouldn’t be worth even watching.
So now that we’re in the bust and all of a sudden no one seems to care if they’re driving a 7 year old car.., were we keeping up w/ the Jones’ back then or were all these creature comforts really a matter of actual personal preferences?
I realize to many ( it may sound like so much minutae ) but it speaks volumes as to the velocity of our wreckovery. If frugal is the new ‘hip’, look out!
DinOR,
Hard times bring out the best and the worst in people. There is so much superficiality we need to shed. It wouldn’t be such a bad thing to get back to the basics. I’ve heard that the divorce rate is actually down, which seems counterintuitive - usually arguments over money are the biggest stressor on marriages, or so “they” say. Maybe people are sticking together because they can’t afford to split up, but hopefully at least some are “joining forces” more to deal with tough times.
A new HDTV can be had for $300. I don’t think you can even buy a non HDTV anymore. And even if you could, why would you when the price difference is maybe $50. HDTV is like color TV, it’s not a luxury.
Eddie,
My point ( and I think you’ll have to concede, prices on those things have been in an absolute freefall ) was referring more to the upswing of this thing.
In ‘03 and ‘04 when we were awash in MEW $’s, money was no object! My question is, do we think people were paying $3,000 for an HDTV in ‘04 because they really “saw the value” or… were they KUWTJ’s?
And I suppose.., by extension, what’s actually harder to part company with? An amenity you’ve grown somewhat attached to, or something you bought simply as a status symbol ( but never really used? ) Perhaps ( as often is the case w/ boating leisure ) a BOAT would have been a more appropriate example. Just curious.
Snaith and Goldfarb are back again. Ben, you just can’t make up these names !!
We’re still going crazy looking for a new place. The owner of a rental 3/2 was “appalled” by my offer (asking $1,300/mo., I offered $1,025, they countered 1,150)… meanwhile my current landlord offers to drop our rent to $800/mo., and add a lanai, but we’re out of space for the kiddos.
I looked at some houses to buy, and they were all disasters, most of them requiring structural/roof repairs. Owners are still listing at wishing prices.
Oh yeah, pocket listings are real. I was offered one — still no deal.
Sounds to me like you’re going crazy because you’re being unrealistic. It’s one thing if you make a lowball to one landlord and he says no, then the next one says yes. But if you’re going crazy, presumably because nobody is taking your low ball offers, doesn’t that tell you something?
And do you really want to rent from someone who is so desperate as to take your low offer? Good luck getting anything repaired or worse, foreclosed on.
I have a really good relationship with my landlord. I think I’m paying a little more than what I should be. But in 1.5 years here there has not been anything I’ve asked to get fixed that hasn’t been done within a week. I could probably find something comparable for $100 or $200 less a month but I’m willing to pay more to know that I won’t have to beg and plead for repairs/maintenance to be done. And I know he also won’t be getting foreclosed on anytime soon as he’s a very conservative guy (financially anyway), retired, not someone who bought 7 houses in 2006 and is on the verge of bankruptcy. Which is what you will most likely get to take your super-lowball offer.
“Sounds to me like you’re going crazy because you’re being unrealistic.”
Good point, Eddie. I mean, the bottom has already passed, so I guess two employed adults can only expect the rental situation to get worse as prices skyrocket in lockstep with unemployment.
Mock all you want. But the fact you can’t find your rock bottom pricing proves it’s not there. Spend the next year trying to save $100 a month and driving yourself crazy in the process if you want. Fun times.
Think of the stress you’re putting yourself through to save $1200 a year. Is that really worth it? How much time have you spent on this search for a new place? Divide $1200 by that amount and ask yourself if that’s worth the hourly rate?
‘to save $1200 a year. Is that really worth it’
That’s a months rent a year. When I consider what will save this or that, I am usually happy to cut 8% or more.
I know a guy who is independently wealthy who still picks up pennies when he sees them on the ground. It’s a mindset more than anything, IMO.
I don’t view looking at homes as “work.” I’ve always enjoyed walking in ‘hoods and driving around looking at stuff.
I don’t know how much you’ve been reading lately, but I actually am considering buying. There are some things you say that are nuts, but some things fair.
For example, I am willing to catch a knife as long as it’s roughly equivalent to “waiting it out.” This was the exact approach to buying my wife’s car. Why would I buy a 2 year old model for 18k, when new was 22k — I am not going drive myself nuts over $4k. My biggest concern is the unpredictability of ‘hoods in Pinellas County. I’m fairly certain North County will remain stable as anything, which is why I may start some offers. Yes, I have been pre-approved.
I really enjoyed your post about wanting to live in nice houses and drive a BMW. I feel the same about the choices I am free to make. I mean, I don’t want to drive a beemer, but I don’t want to raise my kiddos in an 1,100 sq ft. house, which some people here think is “plenty of space.” Well, it’s not, and my wife is not Suzanne for wanting more space.
Like I said the other day, I could live in a tent, but I’m simply looking to balance everything out.
So tell me, what should I be paying for a 3/2 in East Lake or Palm Harbor School areas?
Well I find myself having one of those rare agreements with Eddie here. If you’ve looked at enough places to determine that you’re not looking at a few exceptions, than the price is what the price is. The question of whether current prices are supportable in the long term is largely the question that started this blog. So long as SOME sales are happening, they set the market price. It DOESN’T matter whether those people will ultimately be able to afford the payments that they have agreed to. Well it matters to them, and to their lenders, but it has no effect on the price that prospective sellers are inclined to accept.
Say it takes 100 hours of looking for rentals, driving out to see them, driving back, negotiating back and forth, etc. To save $1200 means you’re working for $12. If it takes 50 hours, you’re working for $24 an hour. To me that’s not worth it. For some it is worth it. But at some point your return on investment (your time) approaches 0.
It’s actually the joy of renting. You’re on 7 or 12 month contracts and at the end it’s open to negotiation once again. When rents are falling as they are now, you’re in a great position to deal.
Muggy, how ’bout if you counter-counter at $1,100 and call it a day? I mean, obviously I don’t know the market where you’re at, or the particular place, but if it’s decent and serves your needs, 1,100 would be 200 a month off his original price, and not too far from your bottom line.
“I know a guy who is independently wealthy who still picks up pennies when he sees them on the ground”.
Been picking up pennies or any other change on the ground since I was a kid. I’ll never stop, amazing to me how many folks just walk right over them.
“And I know he also won’t be getting foreclosed on anytime soon as he’s a very conservative guy (financially anyway), retired, not someone who bought 7 houses in 2006 and is on the verge of bankruptcy. Which is what you will most likely get to take your super-lowball offer.”
In Arizona, I found the opposite of this statement to be true. The desperate underwater f’d borrowers often have no choice but to stand firm on rates. They were likely unable to subsidize their albatross without a sucker. I guess that some are more flexible once they cease repayment of loans. But avoiding likely defaulters based on mortgage debts/house values is relatively easy in many large counties with online records access. Old-fashioned paper research is more cumbersome but still available in counties without such access.
I researched the recorded history of possible rentals a few years ago. The long-term landlord that I ultimately signed a lease with obviously understood that a reduced rent from a reliable person (I provided a current credit score in the initial offer fax) was better than waiting. The house that I rent was rented from 2002 through 2005 for roughly 20% more than I agreed to in late 2005.
Obviously, overall supply and seasonal supply of housing in your area is a factor.
I never accept a credit report from a prospective tenant. I am a member of the local Credit Union and I run my own credit reports. Tenant pays of course. When you ask them for $25 for the report, some look at you like you’re crazy. They then say they will get back to you. Never see them again.Smokes out most of the dead beats.
Pismo will YOU provide a credit check for me? How do i know YOU aren’t a FB and haven’t paid the mortgage in 6 months, you talk a good game here….
Seriously….has it come to this…. that both sides need to do a credit check, in order to have faith that the contact will be upheld by both parties?
Where was the house? My wife and I lowballed for a little while, but didn’t get a single person to budge, and Eddie has a good point that the most desperate landlords probably are the highest foreclosure risks.
Speaking of locations, that bit about the grow house was amusing — one was busted recently in Carrollwood, in a subdivision about a mile from where I lived when I first moved to Tampa in the early 1990s.
“the most desperate landlords”
Do tell snake charmer ( and which ones ‘aren’t'? )
Even well-seasoned LL’s got on the bandwagon of Greater Fooldom and “added to their portfolio” ( at ever loftier prices ) so ‘I’ would say they’re -all- suspect. Just b/c they are asking heftier mo. rents is no assurance waves aren’t lapping at their nose.
In this economy, in Florida, you are right that no one’s financial position is certain; you just have to decide how much risk is acceptable. I got into the habit of checking on-line records to see (a) how many properties someone owned in Hillsborough County, (b) the debt carried by said properties, (c) if an ARM was used, when it would reset, and (d) whether a lis pendens had been filed.
Googling the owner’s name also was helpful, if only to inform me that a substantial number of accidental landlords are associated with the real estate industry in some form or other. I learned that many others are members of professional occupations who should have known better.
Obviously, a house that is simultaneously for sale and for rent is a big red flag.
snake charmer,
Quite and rather! I made the mistake of renting from a LL ( that while not a licensed realtwhore ) was certainly armpit deep in what’s now been exposed as RE/Banking fraud.
I thought I’d done my homework but these local fraudsters really didn’t have anything that would’ve shown up on the radar in ‘07. Here in the PNW their Ponzi-mentum was still carrying them.
Course now the tide’s long gone and we’ve shockingly witnessed their “shrinkage JERRY!” firsthand. Checking on ARM resets should be considered a must.
As slow as the foreclosure wheels turn as long as the house doesn’t have a foreclosure proceeding in process, I don’t see much of a risk. You’ll likely get your full 12 months even if the landlord stops making payments immediately.
Bad Andy,
Good point, especially if it’s a rental that fits your criteria. My response to that would be, with us or without us, most rats ‘will’ survive ( but do we need to go out of our way to feed them! )
Most F’d REIC’sters are just pocketing your rent money. Probably to feed their other alligators or vile habits. Why encourage it?
“Where was the house?”
Belleair, not far from Hulk Hogan, brother!
There are probably a lot of broken pipes in abandoned/foreclosed homes. Pipes are bursting in occupied homes all around town.
“Pipes are bursting…”
Uh.. didn’t think of that? What with undie bombers and broke like a mf’r towns all throughout the affected areas, guess this one kind of got lost in the shuffle.
I’ve always thought that ice was such a waste in the South as none of the kids know how to lace up a pair of skates!
Strange winter sight in central California. While looking at a bank-owned house, noticed that someone had placed paper signs by the toilet that asked people not to flush because antifreeze had been poured there.
I suppose this may be a strategy that keeps pipes from freezing in empty houses in the Northeast. Must also be a one-size-fits-all property mgmt dictate, since pipes are not prone to freezing in Fresno.
‘paper signs by the toilet that asked people not to flush’
This is a standard part of winterizing for lenders. It lets whoever know that if they run water into things, the winterization has been nullified. Anyway, the water has to be off at the curb, so flushing or running taps would require turning it back on.
I saw a story on accuweather dot com about pipes bursting all over southern Mississippi - even in occupied houses. Seems people there don’t know what to do with freezing temperatures that hang around for a few days.
I saw a story in today’s paper about tropical fish breeders in Florida in a panic because their tanks were freezing solid, killing the fish.
Would an upper-tanker be OK then?
Must not have been in Fresno in winter of ‘90.
And these houses will be a steal!
Right? Oh, no… they are actually near-tear-downs now, though still “valued” at their 2005 price on the banks’ books. The only “steal” will be the copper piping and wiring!
“meanwhile my current landlord offers to drop our rent to $800/mo., and add a lanai,…”
Landlords are dealing, almost everywhere. I’m more worried about renting at any price from an “accidental landlord” who’s only “renting until the market turns around” than I am about renting from some a real landlord who is simply lowering their price to meet the market.
We rented in December at one of the nicest complexes in Salt Lake, at a 20% discount. We could have gotten an even better deal elsewhere had we held out a few more weeks, but it was time to make a decision and move forward. You will always know your local conditions the best.
Landlords are dealing, almost everywhere. I’m more worried about renting at any price from an “accidental landlord” who’s only “renting until the market turns around” than I am about renting from some a real landlord who is simply lowering their price to meet the market.
Hear, hear!
Right now, the Tucson market is bursting-full of accidental landlords who are “renting until the market improves.”
And, amazingly enough, houses are currently being sold to “investors” who are buying into the same nonsense. They’re going to rent the place for a few years, and then, through the magic of appreciation, they’ll sell it for a lot more.
Good luck with that. We’ve all seen what tenants do to houses, and methinks that these “investors” are going to be taught a lesson.
It’s different when renting an apt run by a big company vs a house owned by an individual. When the hot water heater breaks in the house and the LL is too broke to fix it, a 20% reduction won’t mean much.
Yeah, but you’re ignoring the flipside. We’re renting from a doctor and this is his vacation house. We get unbelievable, lightning fast service and they still look after the joint like they live here. The only thing I’ve really dealt with on my own was Ratzilla (I’m not going to call LL over a $5 trap).
Right, and although it’s been awhile, the last time I replaced a water heater, I paid around $150 bucks. If you can operate a pair of channel locks and know how to shut off the breaker at the panel, it’s not ‘that’ big a deal.
Our condoze have had so many problems as the result of hasty boomtime const. it isn’t funny. By the time it’s all said and done we’ll have had to replace the entire gutter system. Our sewage pump ( $1,500 ) went out in less than 4 years and it’s been revealed that all of our attics are open.
Basically if a thief ( or FIRE! ) broke into (1) it can quickly get into them all! Other than that, nothing really.
I don’t know what the law is in your state Eddie, but at least here in CA, if a mission-critical thing like a water heater or a roof breaks, if the landlord doesn’t fix it in X-amount of time (I’m sure someone will be happy to fill me in here), you can withhold rent and/or get it fixed yourself and get reimbursed. Sure, the LL may be broke, but if you withhold 3 month’s rent while you’re looking for another place, you’ve probably more than compensated yourself for your time and trouble. And is that same LL going to come after you in court? I seriously doubt it, although I would of course document everything.
DebtInNation,
So true, it’s been so long since I’ve had a truly cr@ppy LL I’d forgotten all about that little tactic. And you’re right, good luck to him in going after you!
Remember, Muggy, as a renter there is one power you always have, and that is the power to say no.
Muggy,
It is interesting following your saga and I do hope you find a happy solution. Just two comments from my side.
One: A reliable and friendly landlord is worth a lot.
Two: 1000+ sq ft is not too small for the children. The first 15 years of raising kids we were in an 800 sq ft house, and not laid out very well at that. The kids were fine. They were also fone later in a 4,000 sq ft victorian but it was me that went crazy. Unless you have a grand piano, I’m not convinced that you need to face moving and uncertanty for a few sq ft. Why not spend some effort on more efficient arrangement of all your stuff? Well, only you can answer that.
Three: Not only are you looking at a few hundred more a month moving, but also those two rent free months in the summer. This is a serious piece of change. You could do something very special for/with the kids every month and still pocket a lot.
OK, that’s not two.
Also, you returning to NY in the summer this year? the invite for a day cruise on Seneca Lake is still open.
“but it was me that went crazy”
Amen brother. And good luck rallying the troops to pitch in once in awhile, that’s at least an equal factor in our PDS ( Premature Down Sizing )
“One: A reliable and friendly landlord is worth a lot.”
They’re not just reliable, but they’ve become mentors. I know that sounds corny, but they had the same dilemma a few years ago. That’s why they kept this house, because they decided to settle in Texas. Think about it: I like them enough to turn over all of my stuff for two months. I have friends I wouldn’t do that for. They are the reason we’re still here. So yes, the summer thing is huge.
“Two: 1000+ sq ft is not too small for the children.”
Yes and no. My littleman is CRAZY — I mean Tasmanian Devil-like. He can cover 40 feet in about 1.5 seconds and break 5 things on the way. This is why I want some acreage, and why I keep bringing up the East Lake area of Pinellas.
“the invite for a day cruise on Seneca Lake is still open.”
For sure, we’ll be in touch. No matter what we’ll be in the Finger Lakes for at least a month. That reminds me, have you been to Hotel Clarence in Seneca Falls? I met a buddy there over the holidays for a drink — that guy (hotel owner) is going to lose a LOT of money… fru-fru Manhattan-style 7million dollar hotel in Seneca Falls?
Growing weed in the Rental house is bad , but 10 times worse is when they set up a Meth ”lab”. It’s a permanent stain on the property , when that occurs in SC . It has to be ”disclosed ” from then on . We are paronoid about what the tenent has , especially odd looking grilling tanks , and funny hours . Background checking is a must , anymore.
Yep….
This is the second HBB story I’ve seen recently about LLs getting burned by a tenant located by a realtor. Realtors get anywhere from 50% to one month’s rent finders’ fee, they’re not known for thorough checks on the prospective tenants. They just want to pocket the commission as quickly as possible and bear no responsibility or accountability when the tenant turns out to be a dud.
With craigslist I don’t know how real estate agents still manage to rent properties.
because if you are out of state owner, which many are, craigslist is useless.
!?!
LOL, yeah sounds about par for the course w/ da’ REIC crowd. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if a goodly number of these ‘grow’ operations were former realtors. I know there was a story in SoCal where a realtor gal had done that in several homes.
See, in my mind, what makes the REIC suck isn’t so much that it draws in otherwise perfectly ethical business people ( and then corrupts them beyond all hope ) but rather that the barriers to entry are so nominal that -criminals- infiltrate it ( and are openly embraced ) so readily!
The solution to the nation’s homeless problem is now clear. All that needs to happen is a Medicaid modification, so if all the messed up people move down there, Florida gets the jobs in caring for them but not half the bill.
WT….Interesting thought…What states could possibly get the most federal money ?? Arizona comes to mind…Florida also…
“Bank of Belle Glade is one of only three five-star banks on The Palm Beach Post’s list of 72 institutions that take deposits in the region. Only two years ago, our list counted 14 five-star banks. Since then, downgrades have been the rule. More than a dozen banks on our list became less safe in the third quarter, according to BauerFinancial”
Well, Wisconson would have a lot more safe five-star banks too, if they hadn’t ” invested ” in Florida, California, Arizona …
“Greed, for a lack of a better word, is good”…until it Bites you in the A$$.
This may be the first time that Belle Glade and “five stars” have been used in the same sentence. Looking at the other financial news in the post, I am very, very dismayed that Fannie Mae is considering waiving lending requirements for buyers of South Florida condos. That would put me, a taxpayer, on the hook for guaranteeing the mortgages for commoditized speculation property that was grossly overvalued from its inception, is overvalued today, and in my opinion has no future whatsoever in a poorer state facing an ugly demographic and resource reality.
‘People were trying to turn Class B and C apartments in places that were not meant for ownership, simply because the financing was there,’ he said. ‘You have to get prices down to … where they make sense as a rental.’
‘Among the problems that have contributed to the downfall of condo prices in the market — from a median of about $114,000 in the third quarter of 2008 to $50,000 a year later — are the legal issues involved when investors consider purchasing units in ‘fractured deals,’ where units were originally offered for sale but then transitioned into rental units. He described it as ‘a lot of brain damage involved in turning those projects.’
So the condo reversions didn’t do anything for the FBs who bought in, but actually dumped the problem on their laps. Jeebus, sorting out this mess will take years. Perhaps condo conversions will receive the bad name they deserve.
Another major problem with condo conversions is that they tie up legal ownership of the property, so that as the building ages it becomes a permanent slum. In the past, as apartments in nice areas aged, they would be demolished and replaced with something nice. One seller and one buyer. This can’t happen with condo coversions unless the government orders it or there is special language in the condo docs. I would never consider buying a property near one of these monstrosities. If you thought living next to or in public housing was bad, can you imagine a run of the mill condo conversion 25 years later? What a nightmare. Crime scene waiting to happen.
Here in Flagstaff, the conversions are already 20+ years old. There was a simple action at play here that Jack McCabe pointed out in 2005; condos are always the last to take off in a boom and the first to fail. This is because they are the easiest way to get in on the tail-end and typically don’t make a lot of sense. Conversions are behind even new condos and make even less sense.
From memory, the lunacy that follows conversions is condotels, floating condos and office/garage condos, not neccesarily in that order.
so that as the building ages it becomes a permanent slum ??
The smaller the complex the better to avoid this problem…Smaller complexes usually have strong boards that recognize the preservation value of preventative maintenance….Large complexes are like herding cats when it comes to making decisions (Increase in HOA dues) for deferred maintenance…They usually throw a bandaid at the problem…
The average apartment complex is not really intended to have more than a 40 year useful life (concrete and steel highrises are slightly different, but definitely not 5 story wood frame builder grade units). Except in strange circumstances, it’s not worth the maintenance keeping up after a few decades. That is why most structures this age without architectural significance are demolished around such time. Thus, over time, the units usually become less valuable faster than single family residences and the quality of tenants moving in lessens.
From a standpoint of the “Bones” explain to me the difference between a apartment building and a house ??…Many 70 & 80 year old houses are cherished…Proper maintenance and repairs can extend the life of an apartment building just as well as a single family home..
If you want renovate your house, you renovate your house. With a condo an individual doesn’t generally get to dictate the timing and extent of structural renovations or control what the neighbors are doing. Thus, if they want an upgrade they often just move. It would be silly to do more renovations than your neighbors. Do you really not know this, or are you just being difficult? Gentrification of non-architectually signifcant condos usually means tearing them down.
Look at the existing statistics. Compare the percentage of apartment complexes built in the 1970’s that have deteriorated significantly since their opening, versus those that have managed to improve or stay stable over the years. I’d have to say there is a very small number units built in the 70’s that I would want to live in today. The same is much less true of single family housing stock. Condo conversions are for suckers.
“‘Very difficult choices lay ahead,’ said Sean Snaith, an economist with the University of Central Florida. ‘The new lower rates of population growth are a game-changer.’”
Dang it! It didn’t souffle. It turned to a runny disgusting mess.
For idiots like Snaith the only game changer is reality prevailing over self-serving fantasy. Waking up can be a real b!tch.
The phrase “game changer” needs to die already. And will some other media-savvy economics professor please move here and supplant this bozo as a quote source?
What is missing is just a little bit of shame. If I messed up economic (or other) predictions given to media outlets so wildly, I personally would be embarrassed to contribute further.
Between “high impact foam pillars” ( grow operations ) and property mgrs. advocating the use of space heaters.., I was just wondering, when would you say all of you had your last “average UNeventful day”?
I’m serious here, when was the last time each of you had a day that wasn’t completely dominated by bubblicious events? I realize it’ll be different for everyone but I’m guessing ‘mine’ was sometime in either 2001 or 2002.
My entire post-college life has been dominated by housing, right down to the first apartment that I tried to get in Buffalo (2000). Some dude stole my $400 security deposit — I don’t know if he was some creepy guy or what, but he simply disappeared. He showed me the place, took my check, and POOF!
It’s been war since…
Muggy,
Sorry to hear that, probably the -last- thing you’d expect in a town that inspired “Buffalo 66″.
Last night while walking the dog I’d come to realize that things have distilled down to what a lot of Viet Nam Vets seem to all have in common. Three distinct phases, my life -before- VN, during VN and after… VN.
Clearly we’re nowhere’s near the ‘after’ part but it really has been impactful. Just curious to learn how other’s perceptions fell?
“last thing you’d expect in a town that inspired “Buffalo 66″
“You get those raisins I sent ya?” My buds and I still say that to whomever f’s up. Lol..
Good timing for this thread as we are now in Sarasota. Brrrr! But it’s still warmer than back home.
Driving up the Tamimai Trail (US 41) is a literal example of the term “Decimation.” About one in ten businesses are empty. However, the streets are busy with traffic. The parking lot of our condo complex on Siesta Key is about 75% full, even though the peak season doesn’t start until February. The number of “For Sale” signs in the neighborhoods we have driven through, including our old neighborhood, is down to normal levels (about one to two percent of homes). House prices have rebounded off their lows of a year ago, but are still FAR below their peak.
And we will be looking at a patio home for possible purchase later today.
I too have returned to Sarasota from up north. Having grown up in Sarasota I am shocked at the decline in the area. Yes there are cars on the raods but the shape of the roads are TERRIBLE fruitville road downtown is ebbing away…ALL of the roads need attention SOON! North trail is still a ghost town, downtown looks like it is barely hanging on..many of the recent condo projects sit mostly empty…and homeless persons EVERYWHERE! Keep an eye on that project on coconut at abut 10th street downtown (a few retail shops at street level and condos above) I dont give that project much traction…and the HUGE empty parcels of land for the once ballyhood super condo projects that never materialized..its all very sad
There are some homes that fit our target in East Lake, that would be equivalent to rentals in terms of cost. At what point will you Floridians buy?
“69-year-old Suzanne Harding said her heater hasn’t worked in days. She said the condo manager has provided few answers. Harding said management told her to buy a space heater, which she considers a safety hazard.”
“Property manager Melody Cook said condos at Connemara were dipping down to 57 degrees…”
Waaahh. Put on a sweater.
I guess Suzanne forgot to research the heating system.
Oh, for pity’s sake. When I awoke from last night’s slumber, I sauntered into the living room to check the thermostat. 57 degrees. So, I turned on the furnace. My daytime programmed setting tops out at 60. That is, unless I put the setting on hold and manually override it. (My overrides usually top out at 64 degrees. That’s ’cause I don’t want to give Southwest Gas any more of my money than I have to.)
Yes, I know. My house has a working furnace and Suzanne’s condo does not. She’s depending on a centralized heating system that isn’t working.
But, if Suzanne’s closet looks anything like mine, she probably has quite a selection of coats and sweaters. Put one on, Suzanne.
Couldn’t be any worse than the A/C in some Florida restaurants. That’s sweater weather!
Same thing happens here in AZ. I can’t tell you the number of places I’ve gone into where I’ve wished I’d brought a sweater. There have been times when I’ve said that I need to go outside to warm up. And the outside temp’s in the triple digits.
I know. It sounds ridiculous to someone used to cold winters. 57 is still borderline shorts and t-shirt weather!
My current theory is that the weather where Suzanne lives is so nice that someone being slightly uncomfortable (and having their clothing choice dictated by weather conditions, no less!) for a few days is actually newsworthy.
Wouldn’t a non-functioning heater violate a warrant of habitability?
Not that I’m opposed to sweaters…
Sweater or not, my nose runs at 60F or below indoors. I gotta keep things nearer 65 to be comfortable.
.. but this Suzanne babe should be more concerned with her immediate health than with the safety risks of a heater. Old folks and pneumonia do not mix well at all.
Walk away is the new Remember the Alamo of the year 2010. So many people underwater I mean 20,000
Leagues under the Sea underwater that leaving the keys on the kitchen granite that was so necessary to people should be the norm.
The stigma of family and friends that you walked so what, it is better then throwing hard earned money into a blackhole hole of a mortage and taxes that most people will never ever recover from.
The banks,the trusted real estate agent,the crooked appraiser,the builder none of them looked out for you so now give the darn house back and let them wonder what the heck they are going to do with the overpriced turkey you now live in.
If you tuly are hunderds of thousands of dollars in debt with a huge mortage,Hoa dues and property tax burden think real hard, you only worrry about your family or your own fiancial health now may be the time to walk away?
Family should come before a faux-foam house.
Now that makes sense! Thank you, pressboardbox.
“Tampa Bay housing starts spiraled to a new low in 2009. Builders broke ground last year on 3,545 homes in Hillsborough, Pasco, Pinellas and Hernando counties. That’s an 83 percent dive from the 21,438 housing starts in the supercharged real estate year of 2005. The previous low was 4,721 in 2008.”
Why are there any homes still being built at all? I thought Florida was losing population for the first time, there were foreclosures and homes for sale everywhere and lots of half-filled condo buildings waiting for renters…
Not that I like or agree with this situation, but homebuilding and associated sprawl have been deemed critical to this area’s economy and there must be activity at all times lest the enterprises die. The industry is like a shark that way, especially publicly-held companies.
“Why are there any homes still being built at all?”
There’s an Eddie born every minute.
Poor Eddie. Guy was only around the HBB for a short time, but he earned quite the spot in our Hall of Humiliation. Just like that fella who kept threatening to leave Florida for Oil City, PA.
Wait,
You don’t think Oil City, PA and Eddie are one in the same do you?
“…but he earned quite the spot in our Hall of Humiliation.”
Eddie (the Great) wears humiliation as a badge of honor.
Funny, I was just wondering about some of the former peeps on the blog here, such as Bye FL (Oil City Boy), and Hoz, whose sheer genius I really miss. And who can forget Ex-NV-Mtg-Bkr, who practically invented the Joshua Tree?
Come on folks, ease up on the guy, he added a little spice to this group. Besides, I even agreed
with him a couple of times.
I’ve never really been proven wrong on anything. I said buy stocks last year, stocks are up, wayyyy up. I said house prices would rise. They have. I said the economy is out of recession. It is.
Yet somehow I’m being humiliated. OK.
I think even a lot of us housing bears predicted that housing would rise (at least temporarily) given the government’s fluffing the market like a porn star. But as to the economy being out of the recession, we’ll just see about that one, kimosave.
With housing still in the crapper, massive unemployment, gov’t debt, and commercial RE about to hit the fan, let’s see if you’re singing the same tune in 6-12 months. This blog has predicted everything to a tee thus far.
Whoa there Eddie,
Aren’t you still renting? You brag about how correct you’ve been yet you haven’t bought a house yet. What are you waiting for?
My comment was rhetorical in nature.
“There’s an Eddie born every minute.”
Well, someone has to pay retail.
“Banks don’t pay maintenance fees and upkeep on foreclosed properties they own, forcing the people who are making their mortgage payments pick up the slack on costs or defer major repairs. “–Why not? Can’t the HOA get a Lein?
Maybe cause the bank never signed the HOA agreement..
A lien won’t help with cashflow.
Ah, but when the property is sold those HOA fees are due and payable and must be cleared before the sale can close.
I did some looking at the Great Depression and housing starts were down about 75% at the bottom and stayed that way a long time.
I had a relative who built a very nice house during the Depression. She and her dentist husband lived in it for many years. After he died, she stayed there for another 20 or so years, then she moved into a carriage house at her daughter’s place.
The point? People with money were the drivers of a good bit of housing activity during the Depression. But, as we all know, there weren’t that many people with money back then.
“For example, Toll Brothers’ new designs may still have stately columns, but they’ll be high-impact foam instead of stone. ‘The market is very wise,’ said Ron Blum, Toll Brothers’ senior vice president, Southeast Florida division. ‘The type of home we’ve designed now is inexpensive to build, and that brings us to a marketplace where we can reach more people.’”
McHigh-Impact-Foam huts, anyone?
Sound like Toll should be going into the high impact cardboard box down by the river market.
McHigh-Impact-Foam huts, anyone?
Not a bad idea, actually…I’d consider it. But then again, I’m the nutcase that moved into a trailerpark recently :-).
Carl Morris,
One of my great disappointments w/ the bubble blogging crowd is that for all our complaining about the cost of conventionally built homes/market, practically any alternative mentioned is met w/ scorn.
IMHO.
Why hasn’t the conversation moved toward exploring the possiblities that lie outside of cookie cutter living? You know, it’s not too late guys?
“I’m the nutcase that moved into a trailerpark recently”
I have been in and out of trailer parks over the years looking for runaway teens. Some deserve the reputation, some don’t.
I’ve been walking through this one for years on the way to work. I haven’t seen anything scary in all that time and I figured I might as well try living in it and saving $1k/mo rather than just looking at it and walking through it every day while living in a “nice” neighborhood right next to it. In the meantime I keep waiting for Boulder to crack…
“I figured I might as well try living in it rather than just looking at it”
That’s funny, that’s how I ended up in my current area. It has an undeserved reputation.
The upside is that when a hurricane hits, the debris doesn’t kill you.
thats not exactly a new idea.. i’ve seen it somewhere.. in cartoons? Or was it a sci-fi book..
How about this.. there are several systems whereby a new product can be prototyped. Rapid Prototyping.
In one system you start with a cubic reservoir of clear liquid plastic. The container is transparent. Basically, when two or three laser beams converge at one spot, they solidify the liquid at that point in space.
All the product’s dimensions are programmed into a file and the lasers do their stuff, and in an hour you get a solid plastic part with all fine the details. Scale it up and a plastic house could be zapped into existence.
i saw this in the aerospace industry; early 90’s IIRC.
“Banks don’t pay maintenance fees and upkeep on foreclosed properties they own, forcing the people who are making their mortgage payments pick up the slack on costs or defer major repairs. It’s the single most important issue facing condominium associations, said Gary Poliakoff, a Melbourne attorney who founded Community Association Leadership Lobby, whether they will survive the economic stress caused by the large number of unit owners and banks not paying assessments, ‘forcing the other unit owner to pick up the bad debt which in some communities is 40-50 percent of the budget.’”
Is this something specific to Florida? Or are banks everywhere exempt from HOA and maintenance fees? Does Florida law specifically exempt them or is there some legal loophole that gets them off the hook?
I, for one, don’t ever remember signing any HOA agreement when I bought the last house I owned that was covered by a HOA. Thankfully I now live on a regular city street with city services and no HOA. But I’m curious how banks get themselves off the hook. Seems to me a change in state law is in order here.
What you’re really saying is that you want the rest of us to pay those HOA fees, because one way or another, just like ALL the costs of doing business, the HOA fees will be passed on to the consumer.
Not at all.
But perhaps if banks are held liable for HOA fees on properties that they OWN then they will be more cautious about loaning to people buying condos and homes with HOAs.
They could do that 3 ways. Require larger down payments for condos and homes with HOAs, charge higher interest rates, or require some sort of insurance rider to cover HOA fees in the event of foreclosure. Banks are smart enough to build that additional foreclosure cost into their loans without needing to pass it on to other customers or shareholders.
“Last year at this time, glum-faced analysts predicted that unemployment in Florida could reach 8.3 percent by the end of 2009. How quaint.”
“As tens of thousands of workers discovered, those estimates were wildly optimistic. The state blew past 8.3 percent by February, on its way to a jobless rate of 11.5 percent in November. In the last two-and-a-half years, more than 736,000 jobs have been lost to the worst recession in 70 years.”
“‘Very difficult choices lay ahead,’ said Sean Snaith, an economist with the University of Central Florida. ‘The new lower rates of population growth are a game-changer.’”
Sounds like things turned out worse than Snake expected?