February 22, 2010

It Only Has One Way To Go In Florida

The Miami Herald reports from Florida. “The government threw a $1.5 billion lifeline to unemployed and underwater homeowners on Friday. Florida and four other states that have seen home prices fall by at least 20 percent since their peak will be eligible to apply for the funds. Since the end of 2006, Florida home prices have dropped 37 percent, according to the Federal Housing Finance Agency. Almost half of all homeowners in the Miami-Fort Lauderdale metropolitan area are underwater. And statewide, homeowners have lost hundreds of billions in equity.”

“With needs so great, it’s unclear what can or will be accomplished with the new funding, said William Hardin, a professor of real estate at Florida International University. ‘It sounds like a lot of money, but relative to the problem we have, it’s just a drop in the bucket,’ he said. ‘My initial impression is that [Obama] is just pandering to voters.”’

“For some, Friday’s initiative seems too little too late. Richard Feldman bought his Sunny Isles Beach condo five years ago for $270,000. Now it is worth less than half that. For more than a year he has been trying to save the property by getting a loan modification. ‘I have been calling my bank religiously every two weeks, I have been calling hot lines, I have been talking to nonprofit people,’ he said. Four months ago he gave up and quit making payments on the loan.”

The St Petersburg Times. “Kevin Parker (is) a flight attendant who bought this St. Petersburg house in 2007. In 2008, Parker was out of work for months. His lender, Bank of America, allowed him to skip payments on his home for 90 days. But when Parker sought a permanent loan modification, he began a journey as bumpy as anything he had encountered in the air. Five months and some 40 e-mails and phone calls later, Parker got the bank to reduce his payments by about $126 a month. But there was a big tradeoff: His late payments were tacked onto the balance, increasing the amount he owes to $157,805 — $10,300 more than he originally borrowed.”

“‘I’m back to work but I’m paying more for the house than it’s worth now and they (Bank of America) weren’t willing to just pick back on the principal,’ he said.”

“From 2005 to 2008, the bank issued 62,000 mortgage loans in Pinellas and Hillsborough counties. Since then, it has started foreclosing on more than 4,000 loans. Last year, though, the bank recorded modifications on only about 50 home mortgages in the two counties. In 2006, Martha Kramer borrowed $116,000 from the bank to buy a Largo condo. After losing her property manager’s job and missing three payments, she asked for a modification.”

“Kramer says it was ‘easily a year later’ — April 2009 — before she got a modification that reduced the interest rate and almost halved her base payment to $525 a month. ‘I can deal with it,’ says Kramer, who is still unemployed.

“But the new terms will make it even harder for her to build equity. The bank tacked part of the late fees onto the principal, meaning she now owes $116,880 on a condo worth about $100,000. And to keep the payments relatively low, the loan is for 40 years, not the once-typical 30 years. ‘If they stretch it out further, that’s sort of helping you in that it reduces the monthly burden,’ says Arnold Heggestad, a University of Florida finance professor. ‘But unless housing prices start coming back, it’s not going to do much good in the long run.”’

From Florida Today. “Cynthia Scott said she suffered nosebleeds while pregnant with her son, now 2, who had to be rushed to the emergency room twice during coughing fits. Everyone in the family of five, including two older children, suffered headaches. Then they came to suspect the cause: Chinese drywall. They had it inspected and moved out of the Brookhaven home they bought for $231,000 in 2006.”

“Since moving from their home in December, the Scotts pay $1,200 in rent each month. For now, they’ve stopped paying their $2,200 monthly mortgage payment, which they’re trying to negotiate down. After the housing bust, their home is valued at a little more than $128,000. And the Scotts said Chinese drywall gutted the value further. It would cost upwards of $100,000 to tear the house down to the studs, replace the drywall, wiring, plumbing and other items needed to clear up the problem. That doesn’t include rebuilding.”

“As of Feb. 1, there were more than 660 cases from 30 counties reported to the Florida Department of Health, including the 20 in Brevard. But the problem could be much bigger, based on the more than 400 million pounds imported into the state since 1999, said Rob Crangle, a minerals commodity specialist with the U.S. Geological Survey. A 2,000-square-foot house uses, on average, about 16,000 pounds of drywall, so as many as 25,000 homes in Florida may be infected.”

“Most gypsum imported into the U.S. comes from Canada and Mexico. Chinese drywall imports spiked between 2003 and 2008, especially when construction demand peaked. ‘I think these will continue to trickle in for a long time,’ Crangle said. ‘It still amazes me that that much wallboard came from China to begin with.’”

The Orlando Sentinel. “Guess which county has the highest foreclosure rate in Central Florida? Could that be Osceola County? Yes, it is. Why, then, did the County Commission last week approve a ‘new city’ of 17,000 acres that would have 30,000 new homes on top of all the foreclosures? It would also offer hundreds of acres for commercial and industrial use.”

“Well, somehow they have concluded that, yes, this is visionary. A ‘once-in-a-lifetime opportunity!’ bellows Commissioner John Quiñones. Sounds familiar. Didn’t Osceola just last year hype another megaproject as a visionary ‘new city’? That one was Destiny in Yeehaw Junction, an hour from anywhere. State planners were so critical of Destiny that the county sheepishly backed off, for now at least. Among other things, Destiny never really could pinpoint where the jobs would come from. Oh, well.”

The St Augustine Record. “This sprawling development off State Road 13 got approvals to build 4,500 homes in early 2004, but Jamie and Kerri Vandenheufel — one of only seven families living in Rivertown at present — came here in October and don’t care how empty their neighborhood appears. ‘We love it, because the kids can roam. We feel safe,’ Kerri Vandenheufel said.”

“County planners estimate that 60,000 to 80,000 homes approved for construction by the St. Johns County Commission over the years remain unbuilt, and that some of the county’s 14 developments of regional impact have few or no residents. Critics say these projects dilute the housing market, creating a massive supply of unsold new homes that sell for about the same as older homes.”

“However, Brian Teeple, executive director of Northeast Florida Regional Council, says an unbuilt surplus of homes is not necessarily a bad thing. ‘All will be absorbed over time,’ Teeple said.”

“Jamie Vandenheufe said homes in the project’s Bungalows district are close-set with front and back porches, much like Disney’s Celebration community. ‘Our house has four bedrooms and 3,000 square-feet,’ Vandenheufel said. ‘Prices have come down. It was a good buying opportunity, a good value.’”

“RiverTown has five other districts beside Bungalows: Main Street, Trails, Farm, Golf and Lakes. Only Bungalows has residents. Vandenheufel remains optimistic, despite the apparently glacial sales there. He looked around at the seven occupied homes and the three models, plus the wide-open grassy spaces where homes will eventually stand.”

“‘The economy recovery is going to take a little while,’ he said. ‘But slowly and surely, homes will be built out here.’”

The Tampa Tribune. “The federal government gave Florida more than a half-billion dollars last March to put new owners into homes left empty by the housing crisis. But the grant came with a ‘use it or lose it’ clause: Commit the money by September 2010 or send the balance back to Washington. With just six months until the deadline, few Florida communities have come close to dedicating all their funds. Since last spring, Pasco County has picked 19 houses in Regency Park and another 10 in neighboring Embassy Hills for rehab. Together, they make up about 15 percent of the 220 houses chosen countywide for the program. Just more than 10 percent of those houses have been returned to private hands.”

“Valerie and Jose Canales left a Clearwater apartment last December and moved with their children into the family’s first home, a four-bedroom on Aetna Lane in Port Richey. The Canales paid $105,000 for the house. Pasco County used stabilization dollars to cover 20 percent of the cost. The Canales have five years or more to start paying the county. Meantime, they’re paying the 80 percent of the loan held by Bank of America.”

“The home sits at the heart of Regency Park, a sprawling community of low-slung single-family homes. The housing bubble burst there two years ago. Vacant, deteriorating houses blight the area. ‘I’m happy,’ Valerie Canales said. ‘There’s no banging, no people screaming, no commotion outside. At the beginning, I felt out of place. I never had it so quiet.’”

From WINK News. “The Parade of Homes was attended by …thousands of people touring the dozens of home models on display in Southwest Florida. Paseo sales manager Tim Clark says…some are looking but he says other are buying. ‘We’ve got 22 deals that we’re putting together for the month of February.’”

“Riverview Homes builder Mark Stout says he’s been busy too. ‘There’s been plenty of traffic here and it’s been this way the entire show.’”

“Like everyone else, he says he’s had to make adjustments. He says, ‘The prices are probably down 25 percent so that makes a big difference to people, the land prices are definitely down so people can get a really good value for what they are doing today- and there is still really a demand out there.’”

“Something that shows that even though the housing market has been down, it seems if you build it, they will come. ‘I really feel like we’ve hit the bottom, so I think yeah it only has one way to go and it’s up from here on out.’”

The New York Times. “After a stint at Ford in the early ’70s, Ron and Patty Cooley left Detroit behind, taking over her family’s modest real estate business upstate. The company prospered: for 30 years the two worked together, helping to finance, build and sell more than 1,000 homes. With their two sons grown, Ron and Patty sold the business and semi-retired down to Naples, Fla.”

“But, unsurprisingly, the collapse of the housing market had a serious impact on a couple with a nest egg tied up in real estate. Ron and Patty looked around and did the math. Florida’s economy seemed to be declining even more steeply than the Motor City’s. Weighing their options, they came back. Talking about Florida, Ron sounds like someone who made it onto the lifeboat in the nick of time. Yes, they had to sell their home down there at a loss, but a former neighbor in Naples recently sold a similar house for less than half of what the Cooleys got.”

“The truth is that my Detroit — and Ron and Patty’s Detroit — might no longer be a city where dreams come true the way they once did. But this story still demonstrates some important things: how lives and businesses can thrive here, how rewarding it can be to have family close and, at the very least, how nice it is that we’re not in Florida.”




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86 Comments »

Comment by qt
2010-02-22 08:29:37

“The truth is that my Detroit — and Ron and Patty’s Detroit — might no longer be a city where dreams come true the way they once did. But this story still demonstrates some important things: how lives and businesses can thrive here, how rewarding it can be to have family close and, at the very least, how nice it is that we’re not in Florida.”

Ouch, this must hurt!

Comment by snake charmer
2010-02-22 09:42:27

In the super long-term, my opinion is that Michigan has more of a future than Florida, although neither state is ever going to look like it did during its heyday and this is going to be a much, much poorer nation regardless. Unfortunately for the Cooleys, I doubt they will be alive to see the full benefit of their repatriation.

This post’s aggregation of quotes from Florida politicians, real estate people, and new homeowners is one of the most embarrassing for awhile. It’s like these people collectively jumped on Oprah’s couch. At least the project near Yeehaw Junction didn’t go forward; had it been built, it immediately would have been something right out of the “Life After People” series. We need to get rid of the Field of Dreams attitude, like right now, but it’s going to be difficult when the federal government is staking its own credibility on that attitude.

Comment by mikey
2010-02-22 09:59:42

Florida = “Your gonna need a bigger boat”

…plays shark music from Jaws…

:)

 
Comment by Jimmy Jazz
2010-02-22 10:11:35

C’mon, the prospect of living in “Yeehaw Junction” would draw Floridians like roaches to a taco truck.

Comment by VegasBob
2010-02-22 14:18:52

When I lived in Louisiana, I thought I had seen it all when I encountered drivers who would stop for a green light, allow the light to turn red, wait until the light turned green again, and then proceed through the intersection.

Then I moved to Orlando, Florida.

In Orlando, I once encountered a driver who stopped for a green light, waited until the light turned red, and then proceeded through the intersection while the light was red.

And these people think real estate in Florida has hit bottom…

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Comment by In Colorado
2010-02-22 16:36:16

It must be all that magic pixie dust!

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-02-22 16:37:02

lol

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2010-02-22 21:36:36

Must be color blindness. :)

 
Comment by Colorado Floridian
2010-02-23 11:33:48

VegasBob,

How about the brilliant Orlandians who come to a complete stop and back up on the Interstate because they missed their exit? Seen that one a few times…

Or taking a right turn from the left lane and vice versa?

 
 
 
 
Comment by EggMan
2010-02-22 15:40:19

I’ve been in Michigan, and I’ve been in Florida, and most of the time I would rather be in Florida.

What I WOULDN’T want is to own over-priced real estate in either state.

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-02-22 08:37:17

From the original post:

“But the new terms will make it even harder for her to build equity. The bank tacked part of the late fees onto the principal, meaning she now owes $116,880 on a condo worth about $100,000. And to keep the payments relatively low, the loan is for 40 years, not the once-typical 30 years. ‘If they stretch it out further, that’s sort of helping you in that it reduces the monthly burden,’ says Arnold Heggestad, a University of Florida finance professor. ‘But unless housing prices start coming back, it’s not going to do much good in the long run.”’

To which I say:

What if house prices don’t start coming back? Is this gal really going to keep making payments on this monetary sinkhole? Methinks that she’s going to give up on the equity-building dream and walk.

 
Comment by Zeus Mtuze
2010-02-22 08:39:27

It’s better to live in Kwameville than sunny Florida?!!

(cue music)
” Turn out the lights,
…the paaarty’s o-o-ver,”
etc.

Comment by Bad Andy
2010-02-22 09:43:38

Being from Michigan, you couldn’t pay me to go back there. What are these folks smoking?

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-02-22 11:08:10

With single family homes in Detroit selling for between $10K-$20K, I am wondering if it is not one of the best ever times to invest in Detroit real estate?

Comment by Bad Andy
2010-02-22 11:20:20

There are entire blocks with not a single home occupied in Detroit. Here you may lose out even at $10K to $20K.

Redford Township that has some homes in that price range as well may be the better investment.

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Comment by james
2010-02-22 12:49:34

Been thinking similar thoughts.

Might be able to pick up some rental properties.

I don’t know how it happens but areas revitalize. Seem to remember Bethlehem PA being an absolute dump. Then it picked up an artisan section, started sponsoring some festivals and kind of turned around.

Aside from the rotting hulk of the steel plant, you do have a pretty river in lush gentle mountain valley town. Not to far from NYC/Phil though I wouldn’t want to commute. Close enough for weekend trips.

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Comment by snake charmer
2010-02-22 13:05:45

The issue for me is that Detroit has not stopped its downward spiral of economic, political, and social decay. Until that happens, and it’s not going to happen anytime soon, there’s huge risk. But from a pure investment standpoint, who is taking the bigger risk right now, someone buying a house in Detroit for $10,000 or someone buying a house in California for $500,000?

What’s really amusing is people’s utter refusal to believe that single family houses in places like California might someday be valued in same price range as Detroit.

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Comment by DebtInation
2010-02-22 18:30:46

Ain’t gonna happen. Much as I think values in CA have much further to fall, they’ll never fall to the level of Michigan (unless of course we’re talking about high desert biker meth labs). That is, unless CA becomes a one-horse economy, loses its coastline, and climate.

 
 
Comment by Temporal
2010-02-22 13:24:01

Every so often I’ll pull up Detroit real estate and marvel at the early-century mansions being sold for peanuts. I imagine living there in that beautiful old Victorian and dream.

Then I consider for a moment the reasons why these homes are empty. That dream becomes a nightmare.

These are -not- nice neighborhoods with friendly neighbors. Unemployment through the roof and rising, desperate people living off government services that may end up underfunded in the future, drugs and destitution, crime and death. I don’t want to be the nice guy on the street living in the big pretty house. Neither did the people who used to live there.

Detroit ranks up there next to Tijuana on my “I don’t want to -ever- live there” scale.

One thing does surprise me though, perhaps someone has some insight on this: Why in the world do rents seem so high in Detroit? I pull up rental searches and it feels like even a house in a crummy neighborhood is asking 800$/month. How can a home you can purchase for 10k-20k be worth 800$/month on rent? Are these homes actually being rented at these insane amounts? Is section 8 paying to boost these rent amounts? Am I missing something???

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Comment by Silverback1011
2010-02-22 17:39:57

Well, one reason could be is that the city of Detroit has very, very high property taxes, and it just isn’t feasible to have someone rent your house for $525 a month anymore. The city is not lowering the home assessments to be on the level with what they’re actually worth on the market, even if the assessments have gone down.

Another reason is that if you’re a landlord and you want to insure your investment, property insurance is high in Detroit, for obvious reasons ( disappearing copper piping, furnaces, etc. ), plus good old fashioned urban blight.

Andy is right. If you are going to buy investment (rental) property, I’d look at Redford Township, Dearborn, Warren, Romulus, Westland, or Wayne, too. Stay away from Ecorse.

 
Comment by DebtInation
2010-02-22 18:33:30

“property insurance is high in Detroit, for obvious reasons . . .”

Do they still burn houses down in Detroit the night before Halloween?

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2010-02-22 18:50:00

Probably.

Detroit is the model for the future of Amerika. Bleak, ground down, in debt, and over-taxed with crime everywhere and no jobs. Depressing, yes, but every policy decision made by those in charge takes us towards this goal - and most people don’t care, so long as they get “their share” of the loot, sadly.

 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2010-02-22 19:09:08

The other day my wife and I were discussing the cities we would most hate to live in. I asked, given a choice between L.A., New Orleans or Miami, which would you choose? She said, just shoot me.

Now I can resume the discussion with four cities. Forgot all about Detroit.

 
 
 
 
Comment by zeus matuze
2010-08-26 23:01:55

“Comment by Zeus Mtuze”

OMG!!! A Groupie!!!!

Thankyou, B’ajesus. And when I get to Utauhr, I’ll drink a wheat beer to the inept ladder climber…..our darlin’ OLY.

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2010-02-22 08:50:53

Anyone watch This Old House this weekend?

They’re rebuilding a foreclosure in Boston, so the show took side trips to Detroit and Florida.

The Detroit segment is one Bubble Bloggers could appreciate — doing simple repairs to a nice existing house from the 1920s.

The Florida segment was a hoot. Foreclosure tours in the Fort Myers area. “Don’t be afraid of green pools, that just means a bigger discount and more profit for you!”

There was one formerly priced-out buyer looking for a home. The rest were investors. The broker claimed that investors are anxious to buy before the price goes up, and speed from one house to another to get their bids in fast before it’s too late.

Comment by SFC
2010-02-22 09:29:31

Algae, the color of money! “Picture yourself, sunning beside your emerald pool. Well, not emerald exactly, but in the same general color spectrum.”

Comment by Bad Andy
2010-02-22 09:44:57

“Picture yourself, sunning beside your emerald pool. Well, not emerald exactly, but in the same general color spectrum.”

Sounds better than slime green, or the color of sludge…

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-02-22 10:04:39

The rest were investors. The broker claimed that investors are anxious to buy before the price goes up, and speed from one house to another to get their bids in fast before it’s too late.

Shades of Tucson in 2005.

I can recall one fine day when I was engaged in some sweat equity in my front yard. There was this Hummer that kept going in and out of the neighborhood, and, no, it didn’t look like a Drug Dealer/Gangbanger Special.

Looked to me to be driven by one of those investor types looking for property near the University of Arizona. Y’know, to rent to students and get rich while doing so.

Well, har-dee-har-har. That was then, this is now. You wouldn’t believe what some of those investor properties look like now. Students trashed ‘em and trashed ‘em hard. Say what you will about UA students intellects and study skills, but they excel at being housewreckers.

As for the UA area, it’s bristling with “for sale” signs. More than a few are on investments gone wrong.

Comment by SMF
2010-02-22 10:42:30

Bingo!!

The problems of 2005 have not even disappeared, just morphed to fit the current conditions.

The vast majority of ‘investors’ now are still the specuvators of the recent past. They dream of riches once the market ‘comes back’.

Since it won’t…oh, well…

 
 
Comment by oxide
2010-02-22 10:14:34

I wonder if they’ll put that online.

At least This Old House is humbling itself from the days of that stupid million-dollar barn.

 
Comment by Marquis Dee
2010-02-23 17:49:14

Hello HBB-ers!
Love this blog. Can’t resist a comment here.
I grew up in Detroit (b. 1962) and was about 12 years old when I realized the place had NO FUTURE. It was always just a big company town, living and dying by the automakers. The whole issue of the city itself aside, the endless tract suburbs of SE Michigan to which people fled en masse beginning in the ’50’s were a particularly soulless place to grow up; in contrast, my grandparents’ old house in Detroit, with a front porch, on a street that was a tunnel of elm trees, seemed like paradise to me as a child. My grandparents were the last old-timers to leave, selling for $2,000 in the 1980’s. Their home has since burned down. And the suburb in which I grew up epitomizes “Generica”, and you can walk for hours and not see another person walking.

I escaped until after college, where I lived through the worst of the “Devil’s Night” years (’80-’85) when it was a 3-day Festival of Arson; grad school took me to Boston, where I stayed for 15 years, and which I came to love because it was bustling, had transit, and I met people from all over the world there. But once married and starting a family, we were hopelessly priced out of the housing market even by 1998; prices doubled and tripled yet again from what we could afford after that! It was a frenzy like I had never seen, especially coming from a city where the land value was negative - in Detroit, it cost more to build a house than it could be sold for - but in Boston, EVERY conversation was about real estate, and every day was a constant worry about having our apartment turned into a condominium. The city I had loved and thought I’d stay in forever was the antithesis of Detroit, but was uninhabitable for the opposite reason.

Having married a Clevelander, every visit back there, we’d see gorgeous homes for $100-150K that would fetch $1 million in Boston. We made the move in 2000, and though it was difficult, I now live in a lovely 1915 Crafstman Colonial in Lakewood, where we can walk everywhere, even to the Lake, are close to downtown, and my neighborhood is safe and tree-filled, much more like my grandparents’ than either my suburban ranch sprawl or my Boston apartment. Neighborhoods like mine no longer exist in Detroit OR Boston: in Motown, they have literally vanished 30 years ago (vacant land area in Detroit, at 49 square miles, is larger than all of Boston) and Boston is so completely gentrified that almost everyone we knew has left our old neighborhood…our crummy 2BR apartment sold for $450K after it was turned into a condo; what we have now cost 1/3 that!

Cleveland, while facing all of the problems of the Rust Belt, is at least friendly, liveable, and manageable in scale. And scale is really the problem with Detroit: lives there have been dictated by corporations, governments, and institutions that are so enormous in scale for so long that they are inhuman. More people have left Detroit (over 1 million) than have ever lived in Cleveland or Boston at their peaks (900K). And the sprawl in Metro Detroit is as horrible as anywhere. But nobody should forget that Detroit is a NECESSARY PRECONDITION for the existence of L.A. and most of America, for that matter. And literally, Florida cannot exist without all the people who have moved there from, well, places like Detroit, Cleveland, and Boston! And those pension checks - the LAST GENERATION of those fat auto-company retirements - are still written up here, so we who remain still continue to subsidise the “Ponzi State”

Sometimes I think that the sick culture of the Auto Industry has so thoroughly poisoned the regional psyche of Detroit that the “Motown Mentality” should perhaps be listed in the DSM V as a bona fide psychological disorder. While I miss Boston, MY Boston, which I loved, is no more; and the Detroit of my early childhood, that I also loved, is LONG gone. Cleveland is now home, and, in the final balance, as a strange blend of the two cities (both the good and the bad) has turned out to be a great place to live and raise a family; it’s hard to put a price on having family close at hand, and having a decent, not extravagant, life that we can afford.

So the fact that This Old House is rehabbing a foreclosure in Boston, and took side trips to Florida and Detroit, is especially ironic to me. If it came to a choice between Michigan (except maybe Ann Arbor!) and Florida, I’m in the “just shoot me now” category, as they are different only in climate; they may forever remain “single-industry” states; the choice between the Auto Industry and the Real Estate Industry is no choice at all.

Best regards to all on this blog, wherever you are, who have not participated in the bubble.

Marquis Dee

Comment by hip in zilker
2010-02-24 12:36:24

Welcome, MD. Thank you for that richly informative piece of writing. Why don’t you repost it in today’s bits bucket, since I think it appeared here late in the day.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-02-22 09:07:21

“With needs so great, it’s unclear what can or will be accomplished with the new funding, said William Hardin, a professor of real estate at Florida International University. ‘It sounds like a lot of money, but relative to the problem we have, it’s just a drop in the bucket,’ he said. ‘My initial impression is that [Obama] is just pandering to voters.”’

I guess there are plenty of innumerate U.S. voters out there who believe a $1.5 bn drop in the bucket will make a dent in a trillion dollar ($1000 bn) plus problem?

Consider Florida alone among the five housing bubble states with special needs:

Drop in median housing value = 37 percent
Median FL home sale price in 2005 = $340,700
Single family homes in FL as of 2000 Census = 3,816,527

Very rough, conservative estimate of aggregate drop in FL home equity off the peak level:

0.37*$340,700*3,816,527 = $481 bn.

And then there are those pesky other underwater states with whom to share the $1.5 bn in new foreclosure rescue money (California, Nevada, Michigan and Arizona).

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-02-22 09:08:23

“It’s better to be approximately right than precisely wrong.”

Comment by DennisN
2010-02-22 09:55:31

The ability to make a back-of-the-envelope calculation is central to numerical literacy. I generally can look at my shopping cart and estimate accurately how much I’ll have to pay at the register.

 
 
Comment by SFC
2010-02-22 09:33:55

Here’s another calculation:
$1.5 billion/4 (states) = $375 million for Florida.
$375,000,000 x % that will NOT be stolen by fraud = $25.18

Comment by DennisN
2010-02-22 09:58:02

Actually there are 5 states, and CA will probably suck up half the total. That leaves more like $.75 billion/4 or less than $200 million per state for the others.

Comment by DebtInation
2010-02-22 18:37:29

A scant $200 mil? That’ll barely throw a good White House party these days.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-02-22 10:07:05

‘My initial impression is that [Obama] is just pandering to voters.”

Sad, but true.

BTW, I just finished the Game Change book about the 2008 Presidential campaign.

Book noted that, during the campaign, it became increasingly obvious that economics was not Obama’s long suit. And Biden was taken aback by how simplistic the campaign’s platform was. The taxes section really blew him away.

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-02-22 10:39:43

Do the Obamanites really think American voters are that stoopid?

Comment by Bad Andy
2010-02-22 10:47:31

“Do the Obamanites really think American voters are that stoopid?”

Apparently as he was elected on a platform of nothing but hope and change. Unfortunately hope and change are not policies…but sadly look who he was up against.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-02-22 10:57:09

Back in early 2008, the local fishwrap had an editorial cartoon of Obama as a rock star. He was playing a single “twang” note on his guitar and saying the word “change.” And the crowd was going wild.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-02-22 11:06:45

Hey Andy —

Thanks for correctly assuming my question was not meant to be rhetorical.

I am interested in hearing from others about just how stoopid the Obamanites think the American voter is. ;-)

 
Comment by The_Overdog
2010-02-22 13:00:41

Well, I’m not sure I’m an Obamanite, but speaking during the campaign, he mentioned tax increases for those making more than $250k, which economically speaking is approximately the top 1% of US earners.

Now whether you think this is fair or not is another question, but I think it is smart and shows some economic sense and some understanding that the deficits needed to be paid back, at least compared to McCain’s platform of business as usual plus support for the TARP and the bailouts.

Now his actions since being elected haven’t been smart in my opinion, but his election ideas were grounded in what I would consider reality.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-02-22 13:20:05

Now his actions since being elected haven’t been smart in my opinion, but his election ideas were grounded in what I would consider reality.

I agree with you, Overdog.

Especially when it comes to Obama’s actions on the economy. Real face-palms there.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-02-22 14:02:26

“Now his actions since being elected haven’t been smart in my opinion, but his election ideas were grounded in what I would consider reality.”

- Actions speak louder than words.

- Money talks, bullsh!t walks.

 
Comment by rusty
2010-02-22 14:18:44

just goes to show the guy was good at getting elected, but not good at being a leader once there.

 
Comment by eddiamond
2010-02-22 14:22:36

How stoopid are the american voters? They did elect W twice!

 
Comment by VegasBob
2010-02-22 14:26:51

I voted for Obama, and would do so again given the same choices I had in 2008.

That said, my commentary on other blogs is:

Under Obama, we’ve had trillion$ in bailouts for banksters, 4 more years of Bernokio, and bupkis for Main Street. That’s not change I can believe in.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-02-22 15:24:30

just goes to show the guy was good at getting elected, but not good at being a leader once there.

A few months ago, Huffington Post ran an article titled, “The Audacity to Campaign, the Timidity to Govern.” Sorry I don’t have the link handy, it was a good article.

 
Comment by GH
2010-02-22 17:39:00

If you want to hear what Obama is really saying, turn off the sound and watch. His words are incongruent with his actions.

That goes for most politicians though. Seems folk just love to be BS’d by charismatic sociopaths.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-02-22 23:22:22

“They did elect W twice!”

Conclusion: We’re frackin’ doomed.

 
 
Comment by mikey
2010-02-22 15:23:06

“Do the Obamanites really think American voters are that stoopid?”

Could be, after all, they voted for all the hair brained GOP supply-sided economy theories and their AFTER-SHOCKS for years didn’t they ?

:)

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Comment by Bill in Carolina
2010-02-22 19:15:13

When you come down to it, all the damage that The One and his administration are causing really is Bush’s fault!

 
Comment by Jon King
2010-02-22 21:42:23

Come on now, we had no choice but to elect Obama. McCain-Palin would have been an epic disaster of more religious nonsense after 8 years of Bush. Lets not forget the credit system was seizing up and we were days away from melt down.

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by cobaltblue
2010-02-22 09:10:05

“But this story still demonstrates some important things: how lives and businesses can thrive here”

What it actually demonstrates is that if your house cost $5000.00, you might be able to afford it more easily than if your house cost $205,000.00. For a while. In the long run you still need income for maintenance, heating and cooling, property taxes, insurance, etc. Little things the Real Estate Cheerleading Societies like to conveniently sweep under the rug. Good luck generating real estate commission income in Detroit. Mathematics says a 3% take on a $5000 sale is a whopping hundred and fifty before taxes.

 
Comment by wmbz
2010-02-22 09:35:36

I would bet that Jamie’s idea of “a little while” and what the reality will be are180 degrees out.

“Jamie Vandenheufe said:
“‘The economy recovery is going to take a little while,’ he said. ‘But slowly and surely, homes will be built out here.’”

 
Comment by DennisN
2010-02-22 09:43:55

Most gypsum imported into the U.S. comes from Canada and Mexico. Chinese drywall imports spiked between 2003 and 2008, especially when construction demand peaked. ‘I think these will continue to trickle in for a long time,’ Crangle said. ‘It still amazes me that that much wallboard came from China to begin with.’

With the heavy downturn in construction, I’d be surprised if any Chinese drywall is still in the import pipeline. The shipping costs on heavy, fragile drywall have to be high.

Comment by SouthFL
2010-02-22 11:41:34

I think you’re right. Our drywall contractor on our old house (which was leveled during construction by Hurricane Wilma) used US drywall for the ceiling but Chinese in just parts of the wall - he had run out apparently of the US drywall for the walls. (this was the Hurricane Katrina/Hurricane Wilma 1-2 punch of drywall availability at the time). From what I understad there is no problem obtaining enough US-made drywall at this time.

 
 
Comment by DennisN
2010-02-22 09:51:36

Didn’t Osceola just last year hype another megaproject as a visionary ‘new city’? That one was Destiny in Yeehaw Junction, an hour from anywhere.

Man, I’d just love to live in Destiny in Yeehaw Junction.

Comment by Bad Andy
2010-02-22 09:56:40

It would be good for business at the Desert Inn!

Comment by rusty
2010-02-22 14:25:54

They could tear down the abandoned gas station and put a new one in! Or a rest area, the only thing we ever do in Yeehaw Junction is take a leak and sometimes buy gas.

 
 
Comment by snake charmer
2010-02-22 12:28:53

The whole idea of naming a community “Destiny” gives me the creeps. I even prefer the hackneyed developer naming custom of soothing bucolic images and eradicated fauna.

 
 
Comment by SFC
2010-02-22 10:13:32

Hey, how come nobody showed up for the block party? What, the next occupied house is 67 blocks away?

http://www.joe.com/Rivertown-community

 
Comment by james
2010-02-22 11:49:11

Of all the cotton picking wastes of money in the universe is professor of real estate the single largest and stupidest of them all!

“With needs so great, it’s unclear what can or will be accomplished with the new funding, said William Hardin, a professor of real estate at Florida International University. ‘It sounds like a lot of money, but relative to the problem we have, it’s just a drop in the bucket,’ he said. ‘My initial impression is that [Obama] is just pandering to voters.”’

 
Comment by EdSTS2000
2010-02-22 13:13:35

Here’s a question for the HBB:

Some background:
The house I’m currently renting is located in Wesley Chapel (Tampa Bay area), and suits my needs very nicely (4/2/2, 1800 sq ft). I’ve been renting it from an accidental landlord (a widow who remarried and moved in with her new husband) for about 15 months now.

She is looking to sell it to me anytime I’m ready to buy (I’m not yet), but I don’t think that prices are done falling in this neighborhood. The Pasco county tax appraiser lowered the property’s appraised value by $30,000 last year - to about $145K. LL (with former husband) had bought the property for $207K in late 2005, having moved from San Diego (and sold their house there).

The house next door has a tax appraisal of about $154K (also down $30K from last year) - and it sold for about that price 2 weeks ago. The next house over has a short sale contract for about $159K, in line with the current appraisal and pending approval by the bank.

Here are my thoughts: I’m thinking of waiting to make an offer until at least the end of this year, and perhaps wait until the end of next year. I’m thinking that by fall 2011 the local real estate market should have settled out, and by then the county would adjust millage rates if they’re going to.

Thoughts?

Also, the last rental contract I signed was written to turn into a lease to own ($1000/mo rent, and $300/mo deposit to be turned into a down payment at the time of purchase). What’s the correct way to account for the deposit? I would think that an escrow account would be appropriate… does anyone have some info?

Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-02-22 13:21:37

What’s the correct way to account for the deposit? I would think that an escrow account would be appropriate… does anyone have some info?

My off-the-cuff reaction is to open an escrow account.

 
Comment by Bad Andy
2010-02-22 13:29:34

If this is a lease to own typically you have a purchase price in writing. If you don’t have that in writing, you’re allowing your land lady to hold you hostage to her price. Let’s say you do want to purchase it in 2 years, she’s got $7,200 in markup at her disposal.

Also, an escrow account is the ONLY way to properly account for this.

Comment by EdSTS2000
2010-02-22 14:10:52

Hmm… I hadn’t put a purchase price in writing, expecting the sale price and comps to decline further over the next 1 1/2 years (and I didn’t want to put too high a price in writing). The LL has told me that she’s not sure what price she would want for the property. Any suggestions as to how to proceed regarding the price? I don’t think that prices will rise anytime soon, and don’t want to commit to too high a price.

I’ll have to see what is required by a bank/credit union to set up an escrow account that I can make monthly deposits into.

Comment by Bad Andy
2010-02-22 14:24:45

The thing is this lady will probably want too much regardless because she WAY overpaid. $1,000 per month is probably well below what you’d pay in a mortgage when you factor in taxes and insurance. Unless she’s really willing to sell on the cheap I don’t think you’ll end up with the house.

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Comment by El A
2010-02-22 13:52:00

I didn’t see in your post any comment as to what she would ask for it. If it’s like most FL real estate deals, it will never happen anyway because she’ll want too much and she’ll think you’re offering way too little. Can’t you get a ballpark number from her? If it’s crazy high, you don’t even need to keep thinking about it.

Comment by EdSTS2000
2010-02-22 15:14:04

The only indication from her about what the price she wants is this: She mentioned that she is willing to consider a “fair” price, based the the selling prices of the houses in the area. Today, that puts the price at about $145K - which is right about $80/sq ft.

I’ll have to arrange a sitdown with her and make sure that her idea of a fair price is in the same ballpark as mine.

Comment by Michael Fink
2010-02-22 16:18:07

Whatever you do, get her to agree on a purchase price now. That’s the real value of a rent to own contract (to the renter) is the ability to lock in the future price of the home, but with the option to NOT purchase at that future price. If you want to buy the home today (at her current price) buy it today, don’t do a rent to own. If you don’t like her current price, but she’s willing to offer a cheaper price in the future (unlikely) then it might be a good deal.

Either way, think of it like a call option. You pay a little more in rent to buy an option to purchase the house at a preset price in the future. The lower the price (for future purchase) the more you pay for the option. A call option at too high a price is worthless (which, unfortunately, is mostly what you’re seeing in the rent to own market today).

Thx!

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Comment by DebtInation
2010-02-22 19:21:09

Michael explained it way better than I ever could. The thing is, your landlord wouldn’t be too bright to lock in a price based on your (probably correct) assumption that the value is going to fall in the future. She would be smarter to put it on the market today otherwise. Of course, crazier things have happened.

 
 
 
 
Comment by joeyinCalif
2010-02-22 13:52:47

..I’m thinking that by fall 2011 the local real estate market should have settled out..

Since nobody knows and predictions are all over the place, it’s probably best to relax..
Like mom used to say.. “Dinner will be ready when it’s ready.”

As for that RTO contract, be smart and get the advice of an attorney.

 
Comment by snake charmer
2010-02-22 15:26:21

As for buying, I’d at least wait until the tax credit expires. If you plan to make a large downpayment, I’d also wait for interest rates to revert to something approaching the mean.

If you look at any chart comparing home prices to inflation, or to Tampa Bay incomes, it’s clear to me that we’re still way out of whack. Add to that the actual and shadow inventory that exists, and the additional job losses that could be coming, and there’s no reason other than gross manipulation for prices to stay where they are. Whether reality will intervene in 2011, I really don’t know. I hear the President say things like “let’s get home prices rising again” and I am sad and disappointed.

Comment by Michael Fink
2010-02-22 16:22:13

Is the tax credit ever going to really expire? If so, I agree with you, waiting until it’s gone and interest rates come up a bit is probably a good idea. I’m just not sure that the credit is ever going to actually go away.

Comment by DebtInation
2010-02-22 19:25:31

In any event, I think the tax credit juice is almost gone anyways. In other words, if they still keep it, I think they will have just about wrung out all of the on-the-fence buyers anyway, in which case the only sales that’ll be made in the near future will be the ones that would be made with or without the tax credit.

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Comment by Muggy
2010-02-22 16:58:09

I disagree with the tax credit expiration. My offer this weekend is “time is of the essence” with regard to the tax credit. In other words, my lowball offer is only good if it includes the credit timeframe. I am using the expiration of the credit as a no BS back-the-seller-into-a corner-approach.

Take the lowball now, or deal with whatever other offer comes after the expiration.

 
Comment by GH
2010-02-22 17:45:51

As a given, incomes are NOT going up any time soon, the ONLY way to get prices to go up is to lend money to people who will later foreclose. This will allow prices to increase for a time, but ultimately, incomes must go up for housing prices to go up…

 
 
Comment by Muggy
2010-02-22 17:01:25

Ed, welcome to the HBB. FWIW, I predict that all of the new commuter exurbs will be awful places to live in ten years (Wesley Chapel, Trinity, East Lake, etc). These will be the McMansion ghettos.

Just a wild, unsubstantiated opinion. This is why I re-focused my search in areas of Pinellas with strong law enforcement, short response times, more eyes on the street, etc.

Comment by EdSTS2000
2010-02-23 13:33:40

Thanks Muggy! I’ve been a long time lurker (4+ years) who finds lots of interesting info here. In the past I’ve felt that I don’t have any interesting comments to add, but that’s changing slowly.

To elaborate, I’m interested in this property due to the following reasons:

Fairly close to my job and my wife’s (I have a 12 mile commute, she has a 15 mile one).

The subdivision isn’t overly McMansioned (it’s Meadow Pointe II/Wrencrest, average house size is 1800-2100 sq ft, houses were built/sold in 2001-2002 for what appears to be an average selling price of $130-160k, based on what I’ve seen in the property appraiser’s website).

Not too many abandoned/obviously foreclosed properties (maybe 1 out of every 25 or so). Most seem to be owner occupied, or at least rented out, and I haven’t seen any severe crime problems in the subdivision… yet.

Landlord and I get along well to date, I think we can do the sale with just paying a real estate attorney for a few hours of his time (to verify that everything is OK). No need for a realtard to get a 6% slice (that would help the LL accept the lower sale price).

I do agree that the outlying parts of the commuter exurbs look like a war zone/ghost town in the making, and some suburbs closer in too (look at Live Oak Preserve!)

On a different subject: Has there ever been an HBB meetup in the Tampa area? Any interest in one?

 
 
 
Comment by Ira
2010-02-22 18:54:42

Please visit http://www.internetlawny.com for the description and documentation of the proposed Mortgage Crisis Solution Program. I was in Ft. Lauderdale when I conceived of the program. I have friends who are very underwater in their homes. I was working on a financial services concept for several years with several other people and decided to see if I could work paying off distressed mortgages and selling foreclosures into the technology we developed. This program is the result.

The program is not perfect but it can be used to keep many people in their homes that would otherwise be foreclosed upon. One key is the fact that the funds used to pay-off the existing mortgage are created using non-housing market forces. In fact, the FMV of the home underlying the distressed mortgage is not involved in the calculation until the Deferred Recapture Amount is calculated. The portion of the Deferred Recapture Amount that must be repaid is not repaid until the home is redeemed out of the program.

I am hopeful that the program will at least be reviewed by the government before it is summarily dismissed.

Ira :)

 
Comment by Jon King
2010-02-22 21:46:06

We are now in Sarasota. The papers run housing recovery stories. And houses over $250,000 are still overpriced by 40-50%.

Its like no one has learned a thing…yet. But they can’t live these lies forever.

 
Comment by Zeus Matuze
2010-02-22 23:54:48

Reading the public statements of many of these FBs, I wonder if there is some dark conspiracy by misanthropic journalists to drag ‘dumbass’-flavored moneybones thru desperate stupidtracts in order to find drooling, cross-eyed and fully stuffed Joshua-treed fools to comment.

Pathetic to the quad degree.

 
Comment by Zeus Matuze
2010-02-23 00:52:56

Reading the public statements of many of these FBees, I wonder if there is some conspiracy by misanthropic journalists to drag ‘dumbass’-flavored dogbones thru desperate stupidtracts in order to find drooling, cross-eyed and fully stuffed Joshua treed fools to comment.
Pathetic to the quad degree.

 
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