The Housing Bubble

“Rule #3 Always double tap.”

Senator, is that you?

Zombieland… now on video!

Loved that movie.

It’s called the side step:

Fellow Texans, I am proudly standing here to humbly see.
I assure you, and I mean it- Now, who says I don’t speak out as plain as day?
And, fellow Texans, I’m for progress and the flag- long may it fly.
I’m a poor boy, come to greatness. So, it follows that I cannot tell a lie.

Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep, now they see me now they don’t-
I’ve come and gone and, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step,
cut a little swathe and lead the people on.

Now my good friends, it behooves me to be solemn and declare,
I’m for goodness and for profit and for living clean and saying daily prayer.
And now, my good friends, you can sleep nights, I’ll continue to stand tall.
You can trust me, for I promise, I shall keep a watchful eye upon ya’ll…

Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep, now they see me now they don’t-
I’ve come and gone and, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step,
cut a little swathe and lead the people on.

Now, Miss Mona, I don’t know her, though I’ve heard the name, oh yes.
But, of course I’ve no close contact, so what she is doing I can only guess.
And now, Miss Mona, she’s a blemish on the face of that good town.
I am taking certain steps here, someone somewhere’s gonna have to close her down.

Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep, now they see me now they don’t-
I’ve come and gone and, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step,
cut a little swathe and lead the people on.

Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep…

And, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step…

Cut a little swathe and lead the people on.

Sung by Charles Durning from the Best Little Whorehouse in Texas

At night, you can sit in a room, and if it is quiet with no distractions, you cal actually feel your wallet getting thinner..

In fact, thanks to malinvesting by their pension plans, they are living more modestly than usual

I would think that incredibly low rates on fixed income investments is a factor as well…

Well, as a greater and greater percentage of total federal spending becomes non appropriated (SS, medicare, interest), gridlock becomes a less and less effective method of reducing expenditures.

OK, I’ll grant you some gridlock savings. But since most of the bailout money seems to flow into the big boyz pockets, I’m dubious that we’ll see gridlock in those areas. Both sides in congress are bought-and-paid-for, and Wall Street likes a return on its investment.

For all their populist hoo-haw, the repubs will never do anything that Wall Street adamantly opposes. (Nor will the dems, usually- unless they’re backed into a corner.)

“Both sides in congress are bought-and-paid-for, and Wall Street likes a return on its investment.”
…the sad truth.

“Both sides in congress are bought-and-paid-for, and Wall Street likes a return on its investment.”
…the sad truth.

I know but we could easily help change it. If a lot of incumbents (even just 20-30%) were voted out under a movement where they knew WHY they were being thrown out (because they are in the Bank’s pocket) there could be real change.

Why would throwing out just 20-30% get their attention? Because about 90-95% of incumbent politicians are re-elected now. Therefore, even a 20% rejection rate would represent a tidal-wave of public outrage over the bank’s takeover of our government.

Throwing out 20-30% of incumbent politicians over a couple cycles would get ALL of their attention. All of them.

It could really work.

Actually, alpha sloth, I have to disagree with you there. I think that if the Republicans took over they would cut off a lot of bailout money. They would have done pretty much the same thing if they had controlled the house and the senate back when Paulson was putting TARP together. And McCain would have attempted some sort of FB level bailout early on if he had been elected. I am absolutely positive they would have. But now that a large chunk of people they depend on to get elected have said they hate it all, they will at least take a break. Can’t say whether they would let, say, Citibank, go under, with nothing but FDIC by way of a rescue, but they would do a lot less. It is mostly a matter of following the crowd, not leading it, but there would be some difference in the behavior for a while. Romney is trying to set himself up as the presidential candidate of this approach as we speak which is weird for an MA politician who signed a universal health care bill.

Now, they would try to enact huge (possibly temporary)tax cuts - which which sounds like a good way to inflate a commodities bubble to me - but the president would likely veto it, so that agenda would not get enacted any time soon.

I don’t know polly.

That TARP bill had a lot of backing. I’m pretty sure whom ever was in charge would have gotten bullied into passing it.

Sometimes when a giant turd like that comes floating down the sewer, you are better off being the minority party and getting to stand aside. You know it’s going to pass just get to be happy it isn’t your ass that had to produce it.

You forgot wars. Although there is a sign that pubies’ voters have somewhat wised up about the spending, I am not so sure about the wars. Give them Bin Laden, Kim Jong, Chavez and what have you, and a Flag, the pubies’ voters will be partying like it’s 1999.

I thought the Republicans had the executive branch and at least one house for that previous 8 years. So what is it that they did so much better?

Guys, guys. I agree that the Republicans would have done pretty much the same thing (possibly with slightly different emphasis) if they had been 100% in charge during the early months of 2009 and the later months of 2008. TARP still would have been passed. Some sort of bailout of AIG would have happened. Some kind of alleged help to underwater home owners would have happened. Even some sort of unfunded stimulous would have happened, though more tax cutty and less spendy.

All I am saying is that might not be the case going forward. They are reacting to the popular anger at what has already been done and trying to take advantage of it. The fiscal responsibility intentions wouldn’t last long if Citibank was about to go belly up, but claiming that they are against all this stuff NOW is a good political strategy. I expect them to recognize that and use it. If they get elected, it might even last a few months.

Oh, I agree the repubs will campaign on ending the bailouts and being fiscally conservative, I just don’t think they’ll do it, other than symbolically. The guys making the money off the bailouts are their master overlords on Wall Street, and they’ve already shown they have no intention of playing it cool during this crisis. They want their bonuses, and they’ll have them, sheeple be damned.

And the repubs will continue to throw little bones to the FBs, just like the dems, because let’s face- Joe 6pak sitting in an underwater McMansion with a HELOCed bass boat and supertruck in the front yard, is the republican base. They’ll just rename it ‘Saving the American Home’ and continue some form of useless bailout. Same old, same old.

I mean, they never seem to actually get around to outlawing abortion, do they? But they sure talk it up a lot on the campaign trail.

Actually, alpha sloth, I have to disagree with you there. I think that if the Republicans took over they would cut off a lot of bailout money. They would have done pretty much the same thing if they had controlled the house and the senate back when Paulson was putting TARP together. And McCain would have attempted some sort of FB level bailout early on if he had been elected. I am absolutely positive they would have. But now that a large chunk of people they depend on to get elected have said they hate it all, they will at least take a break.

Polly I suspect that if they were in power they would be tamping down the I hate the bailout propaganda and Tea Party activism. I mean everyone hated TARP across the board and both parties voted for it.

There is a difference between something not polling well and the overwhelming fury they are trying to direct to the polls. This is purely an “inside the beltway” sort of analysis, but I really think that using this is where they are going right now, especially Mitt, though he has no credibility in taking that position that I know of.

That said, a month might as well be forever in politics.

Somebody sent me the tape of Glenn Beck and I liked the
speech ….pretty amusing . I don’t know if he is a loose cannon or a tool for some big self-interest group . It’s pretty funny how he conducts classes in history and what have you all the time on his show . He is really upsetting the liberals ,thats for sure . I know that he is against Health Care reform ,so he must have a good insurance policy and he doesn’t seem to knock the business
monopolies . He seems to think that Liberals re-wrote history and he is going to right that wrong .Anyway you look at him ,he must be making a mint right now .

He is really upsetting the liberals ,thats for sure .

Beck’s not upsetting anybody with his ideas — he has a right to those, ridiculous as those ideas are. It’s more complete and utter bafflement that anyone would listen to such a crazy ass-clown, let alone give him a TV show, a radio show, and a book deal to disseminate his “wisdom.”

You are right about one thing — he must be making a mint.

Beck is for himself. So is Limbaugh, Overman, Michaeal Moore and so on.

I don’t know if he [Glenn Beck] is a loose cannon or a tool for some big self-interest group .

HW, let me help you out - he’s an entertainer.

He gets paid for making sure his audience sticks around through the commercials.

Many people often confuse a demagogue with an entertainer, including the demagogue.

Hi Carrie, not currently squatting but hope to again soon. I just can’t find a place I like. Or maybe I should say, can’t find a price I like…

My current plan is to live in an office in the old Uranium Building in Moab, Utah, where for $150 one can get a private office with bath and hardly any neighbors, as most of the building is empty. Right next to a really good cafe, and great views of the cliffs. You’re really part of the action, as you’re right on Main Street (not that there’s much action, except for during Jeep Safari Week). I can even start trading uranium stocks if I want, since I’ll have the office as part of the deal. I need a couple of shell companies, if anyone’s interested…

Of course, the squatting part is keeping the LL in the dark about actually living there. But he’s an old guy and can’t see very well. A walking history book, having been part of the Uranium Boom back in the days…

Are your dogs going to be happy in an office suite?

Hi Polly, we’ll probably mostly just sleep there, unless the uranium penny stock market takes off, then we’ll buy the building and put in an indoor agility track, complete with some ravens for them to chase around while I’m working.

Like Goldman Sachs, I’ll be doing God’s work if this all pans out, and just like Greece, the dogs will get more biscuits and are amenable to that.

I’m gonna wait things out in my own personal abandoned mall.

“I’m gonna wait things out in my own personal abandoned mall.”

Really bad idea. That’s where the zombies always go first!

“My current plan is to live in an office in the old Uranium Building in Moab, Utah, where for $150 one can get a private office with bath and hardly any neighbors, as most of the building is empty”…maybe there is a reason !

You won’t be Losty no more.

Everywhere she goes, everybody knows, she glows.

Got a geiger counter ?

I guess I’d sit for awhile in your rental as long as you’re not being kicked out. If you really want to buy, you need to hire a buyer’s agent who can find out who’s getting divorced, who’s lost their job, etc., on houses you’re interested in, and then go in and lowball those. Quite often there’s a court order in divorce cases, for example, mandating that the home should be sold by a certain date for such-and-such a price, but the listing agents of course won’t tell you that stuff.

you need to hire a buyer’s agent who can find out who’s getting divorced, who’s lost their job, etc., on houses you’re interested in, and then go in and lowball those

That’s a good idea. We bought our Rockport (Gulf coast) house at the end of 1999 on a lowball offer (slightly under 2/3 of asking). Coast home sales were practically non-existent at the time due to oil price slump. The sellers had gotten divorced, put the house on the market for a few months, it hadn’t sold and they had only gotten low-ball offers, and finally they just wanted to get their financial affairs disentangled before the end of the year.

The whole idea of a buyer’s agent is a yet another realtor swindle. You want to get a home as reasonably priced as possible. Any realtor, selling or buying, wants the place to go for top dollar so they’ll collect higher commissions. That’s an inherent conflict of interest with the so-called “client.”

Just work with the seller’s agent instead. They’ll be more than happy to throw their “client” under to bus to collect a full six percent on a quick lowball sale.

The whole idea of a buyer’s agent is a yet another realtor swindle. You want to get a home as reasonably priced as possible. Any realtor, selling or buying, wants the place to go for top dollar so they’ll collect higher commissions. That’s an inherent conflict of interest with the so-called “client.”

Hear hear. Both “types” of agent get paid based on the sale price of the house. So both of their interests are in seeing a sale price as high as possible.

The buyer’s agent’s stated principle might be to get a good deal for his client, but his interest is in seeing a high a sale price as possible. In most cases, unless he’s a saint, his interest - money for him and his family - are going to win out.

Sammy-

I disagree. 3% of say a 300k home is 9k, if said realtor helps you negotiate down to 250K because they “working for you” then, 3% of 250k is 7.5k. Any salesperson in any industry will take 100% of 7.5k vs 0% of 9k. The motivation is in making a deal. Whether its 7.5k or 9k is immaterial. Its a rounding error. Even less so when you factor after tax income.

Full Disclosure: Been a HBB member/believer since 2005, seldom post, always lurk. I was in mortgage biz for 12 years ‘96-07 but, did mostly 125% loans.

MDMort,

Depends is what I say.

3% of 350k home is 9K - motivation in and of it self to convince the FB the sale is mavalous baaabeee -(client…er…consumer …er…customer…er…meal ticket…)

Here’s where greed takes hold.

One sees $9k for their family - are they even thinking about 7.5k? HEY no!

Get ‘er done!

Sigh.

Perhaps you travel with honest souls - pardon my cynicism.

Best,
Leigh

Oxide-
You might want to Google “mdmortgageguy” under this site. My moniker may not look familiar to you as i seldom post. But we are on same side. I was here early on. I never did the loans that are discussed here, never done a purchase, never done a refi that was neg am or ticking time bomb.

For AZ, their health insurance is through Golden Rule. Which sucks as much as the plan I have now.

I HAD golden Rule….got a check for $4,000 when they got bought out by United Health ( i guess they were a mutual company, owned by their policy holders)….premiums have been sky rocketting ever since….
we cancelled our policy and now my wife flies to France for all her doctor visits (really prefers the bedside manner there too) everything is a fifth the price or less.

i haven’t seen a doctore since 1994…..but i feel O.K.

Republicans have been screaming and crying socialism and and librul since the days of Barry Goldwater and General Curtis E. LeMay.

Had the nation listened to those two, we’d be lucky to still be living on a nuked green glass planet ang arguing heath care with another breed of roaches.

Really, how much are we spending on unemployment as opposed to the two unwinnable, endless wars we are fighting in the middle east?

I seem to recall that each pair of boots on the ground over there costs almost a cool million per year. That’s 2500 weeks of UE benefits at $400 per week. 48 people for a whole year.

Another back of the envelope calculation: 10,000,000 unemployed receiving $400 a week for 52 weeks costs $208 billion. How much are we spending in Iraq? According to costofwar dot com we have already spent 700 billion in Iraq alone, plus another 250 billion in Afghanistan. I checked my town’s share (Loveland) of that cost and it’s 173 million.

Its easy to be snide towards the unemployed when one has a guaranteed government job with a pension waiting, but those of us working in the private sector know we could find ourselves on unemployement at any time. And for the record: I have never received an unemployment check in my life. But I know many folks who are doing their darndest to find a job and who would be sunk without that unemployment check.

Currently, somewhere’s between 19-22% of this country’s 2009 spending was geared to the military and its campaigns.

Significantly more is spend on entitlement programs such as Medicare.

Back when JFK was president (1960/1961), 52% of the country’s spending was on the military and its campaigns.

“Back when JFK was president (1960/1961), 52% of the country’s spending was on the military and its campaigns.”

Yeah, a democraptic president spending all that taxpayer money on going to the moon, like we got any “military benefits” from that… SPENDING! SPENDING! SPENDING!

Rash & Limpbaughs was still trying to graduate high school ’bout then.

Ralph: “To the moon Alice…to the moon!

What will happen to unemployment when we bring the troops home and downsize our military?

Dang good question.

Leigh

Why cant we pay people $10 an hour to take payments over the phone again?

Because the people in Pakistan do it for $1 an hour?

Because the people in Pakistan do it for $1 an hour?

This is a fact that sometimes is lost on our government employed friends. Many still believe that the grass is greener in the private sector.

Plenty of gov jobs outsourced. That’s why they want to privatize as much of gov as possible. The US gov can’t directly hire Pakistanis Chinese etc, but a private contractor can and can take home a big pay check in the process.

More and more phone-answering jobs are being outsourced to womens’ prisons. They work even cheaper than they do in Mumbai.

I’ve been writing Freelance Switch articles about this very trend.

I’m afraid you are dreaming, The success ratio of internet businesses is no different than any other.

In other words, poor.

Secondly, you’re about 12 years late to the game. This was the mindset back then. That’s when the phrase “it’s different this time” was coined.

Aye, Maytee!

They will tax the wires as well.

Coming to a DSL nearest you!

Hoy!

Shop now.

Ya just can’t make this stuff up!

/sarcasm…er…me thinks.

Leigh

If I were hiring someone to work in any sort of financial capacity, you bet your sweet bippy that I’d be doing a credit check. No two ways about it.

But I don’t hire for such things. I hire people to do things like programming, website theming, Flash, and copyediting.

One of my programmers told me that, many years ago, she was arrested for drunk driving and had done jail time. She also told me that she’s had many years of sobriety since then. Darn good programmer, that one.

Agreed slim, but for an average job?

I would like to see drug testing of executives every 90 days.

1 coked up VP can steal 100 times more then a guy on the loading dock.

financial capacity,

If I were hiring someone to work in any sort of financial capacity, you bet your sweet bippy that I’d be doing a credit check.

I’m just glad you said “you bet your sweet bippy”!

One of my formal girlfriends did the hiring for a major law firm. Was yakking all the time about the stuff she’d see on resumes.

One guy put down how much he could bench-press….

Fixer,

I know it seems incomprehensible, but there was a reason for that sort of information on law firm resumes, especially for the new attorneys. You are there for an interview. You see about 5 people for about 30 minutes each. Your law school classes and grades are on the resume or on an attached transcipt. What do you talk about for half an hour with 5 different people? What was your favorite contracts case? Does professor X still try to best the guys who are a lot better looking than he is? No. You talk about anything that is different than what you saw on the last 10 resumes. Weight training is as good a thing to talk about as any.

Baby attorneys are fungible. They do research. They take old deal documents and update them for new deals (all the March 14’s need to become September 18’s). They stay late and don’t get much sleep. They stay for a few years and then they leave. Picking the new ones is about finding people who are willing to subject themselves to law school and with whom you wouldn’t mind spending 40 hours straight. That is about it.

Or the guy could have been an a$$hat. One or the other.

You talk about anything that is different than what you saw on the last 10 resumes.

After I got my first professional job, I found out that my employers were impressed that when they asked me about my Master’s thesis during my interview lunch, I told them briefly what it was about and then changed the subject to something more interesting.

Given the tone of the conversation with her fellow employee, I’m saying “B”

I want to know about GSfixer’s “informal” girlfriends, as opposed to the formal one.

GSfixer’s “informal” girlfriends

they were the ones with the wrist-length white gloves as opposed to the above-elbow ones

Interesting topic, for sure. ChoicePoint owns databases used for pre-employment checks, CLUE, the database of insurance claims, and some marketing oriented databases, too. They also own LexisNexis. Although my FICO is in the 800’s, I have my issues with an employer invading my privacy.

Oxide,
Surely a CC is not an end-all litmus test. I agree FICO is a backasswards system. In fact, I’m not even sure what my score is. All I know is I’ve paid every bill on time and have no long term debt. FICO is important, unfortunately, when you need to borrow. If you don’t, F-em.

I have been on both sides of this CC issue. I was working for a large semiconductor tool manufacturer as a contractor. They sprung a new regulation on us that we had to submit to background checks. There were no security clearance issues with our jobs. When you gave consent to these new regulations you gave them the ability to do a credit check and extensive background checks. Even going so far as to canvass your neighborhood. I’m not kidding. I didn’t have a problem with a criminal history check but the rest was complete BS to me. Many in my group were ready to fold but I was able to convince the group to call BS on it. This manufacturer needed us so they acquiesced.

With all that said, I would still do a CC on a prospective tenant or employee. This is with 15 more years or so under my belt.

Eeek ! Always, Always do a credit check on a potential renter. If they have bad credit, then they don’t have any skin in the game for landlord/tenant issues since they don’t have a FICO to protect, and they won’t take care of your property very well. I know from sad (and expensive) experience.

I have a friend who’s a longtime landlady. She charges the maximum security deposit allowed by AZ law. Says that weeds out the riff-raff.

“There were no security clearance issues with our jobs. When you gave consent to these new regulations you gave them the ability to do a credit check and extensive background checks.”

Ha, the good ol’ days!

Company X hiring a QA Director…three interviews…x2 flights to their hdqrts…

Down to the final x2…”hired-gun” consultant really thinks ol’ Hwy’s is more than qualified…thinks he’s the man for the job!

CEO: So can you xsplain about this arrest in ‘96?
Hwy: “Well, the police Supervisor (poking ol Hwy in chest x3 times) says he gonna shoot my dog in the head if she bites him…” (long pause)
CEO: “Then what happened”?
Hwy: “I says to him: let me get this straight…your gonna shoot a chained dog in the head for protecting it’s turf…why,… that’s mighty white of ya!”

(metal sound): CLICK! CLICK!

After an Alcohol lunch where ol’ Hwy was the only one in a suit…

“hired-gun” consultant: “Hwy, I was really pulling for ya, but this company is looking for someone who DOES NOT have aggressive “TrurthSlayer™” tendencies…

Post Script:
(6 months later the Company was indicted for criminal misconduct for violating FDA rules regarding an “inhalant” used by 100,000 of seniors)

Oxide- Oh please. Fico was never claimed to be perfect but, an approximate guess at risk. Insurance companies have been using demographics such as age, zip, and marital status for decades. It gets fine tuned with time, as will FICO (was born in mid-to-late 90’s dont forget). While I am largely in tune with the theme of this blog, sometimes everyone is so over the top cynical that it destroys the credibility of the very real points (not singling you out Oxide). We need FICO to act as the arbitor of risk and separate the wheat from the chaffe in our favor. Nobody has the time of money to listen to your cry letter about why your score should be hire.

Note: i think its a little ironic that below your post, another makes a point about checking credit before renting to someone. In other words, making the same business decision being discussed in the post.

“We need FICO to act as the arbitor of risk and separate the wheat from the chaffe in our favor.”

I’m not against FICO being used to check someone’s ability to pay or handle money — mortgages, renting, or a jbo in the financial sector. But what about someone’s ability to teach, or fight fires, or do R&D, or surgery, or even drive a car? You gonna base your hiring decision on FICO for those jobs, because you “don’t have time” to do more than look for the highest number?

I notice you’re a mortgage guy. As for using FICO’s for mortgages, using FICO is fine; the issue is when the banks get lazy and use only FICO. How did that work out for you? Oh that’s right, what do you care? You just take your bonus while I bail you out.

..I guess it comes down to being a good judge of character and having it.

that got me thinking..

I know a couple people of definitely “bad” character.
They seem unable to judge character in others, and tend to distrust everyone.

They don’t pay bills because the company is “always trying” to screw them or “has” screwed them. They can be relied on to back out of obligations of any sort, and justify it because “they would do it to me if i gave them the chance”.

Another thing is they can’t see how they might be responsible for whatever situation they find themselves in.

It’s not like they’re faking it.. they really believe it’s them against the world.
—–

Having good character may not guarantee riches, but it is by far the more rewarding and less stressful way of life. It’s good for the mind, the body and the soul..

Business Ethics: Public’s trust in corporate America fading Athens Banner-Herald Feb. 21, 2010

It is hard to recall a time in recent memory when trust in corporate America has been called into question as much as today.

Business associations continue their customary practices of fighting regulations and lobbying for more favorable treatment in Washington rather than restoring trust with the people who make their jobs possible.

http://onlineathens.com/stories/022110/bus_565562395.shtml

“…It is hard to recall a time in recent memory when trust in corporate America has been called into question as much as today….”

That’s easy: the 1960s. The decade before the Business Roundtable was formed and put the full on propaganda and lobbying blitz against workers and consumers rights and safety and pollution regulations.

well.. a regular credit report doesn’t even include the FICO score.. that costs extra.

Well yes, credit SCORES are predicated on the idea that they are a predictor of peoples propensity to pay their bills. Like many things (say citation counts) they become less and less useful when you use them for something else. But the whole credit report could, indeed be useful. Does a potential employee have enough debts to make stealing from their employer tempting? The relevance of this depends on the job. How much trust does the job require from your employee? I’m afraid that I can’t get behind the idea of making a “protected class” of those with bad credit.

i dunno if i can find it again, but there was a story about a big IRS processing center somewhere in California. The article claimed that some huge number of the people working there.. i recall 40% or 60%.. hadn’t filed taxes in years.

Here’s excerpts from one similar.. 2007.. and according to the IRS, the Treasury has the least number of tax cheats. (Since the Treasury includes the IRS, i’d be suspicious of that stat.)

WASHINGTON - As the 2006 tax season approaches, the federal government is still trying to recover nearly $3 billion from its own employees who failed to file income tax returns for 2005…

The agency with the best compliance rate is the Department of Treasury, which includes the IRS. Fewer than 2 percent of Treasury employees failed to pay their taxes. About 3,000 Treasury employees owed $13,489,683..
http://wtop.com/?nid=428&sid=1034585

Yes, you’re right. I also have found out over the years that generally, it’s better for me to have good acquaintances at work than bestiest friends. Eventually, it becomes a pain in the — if people know too much about what’s going on, family issues, pocketbook stuff, etc. It’s all wonderful when things are going well, but the whining gets pretty deafening if you listen to peoples’ “stuff” too often. I have had to adopt a policy of just moving on.

Thanks, Jim.

The HBB community was treated to an extensive account of last May’s water line replacement here at the Arizona Slim Ranch.

Recall that during that project, a fuse blew at the next-door neighbors’ house. They tried various methods of connecting that incident to my line replacement, but all of them failed.

Although I can’t prove it, I believe that their efforts to link the two unrelated events had to do with their lack of a cushion to pay for something as big as new electrical service to their house. You should see these people — they’re spenders like there’s no tomorrow.

OTOH, I learned early on that if one is to be a homeowner, it’s a good idea to have a cushion on hand for the disasters that strike. I used that cushion to pay for my water line replacement.

Nothing bugs me more than people who make a good living complain about not having enough money, when I see so many people who can’t save money because they flat out aren’t making enough money and are already pared to the bone.

lavi,

Nice website. I just can’t figure out how you seem coherent here on the HBB and then have that website. Must be a Vegas thing.

Lip

You just need an independent Fed.

I agree, political reality makes true Keynesianism hard to practice. It requires an educated, rational electorate- which are in short supply. But the ‘no rules at all’ idea usually being offered as the alternative to Keynesianism requires an even bigger leap of faith- since it has been proven wrong so many times in the past. And with much worse consequences. Keynesianism worked great for about 50 years. (Oh, but it was ‘different that time’?)

And of course alpha, not all stimulus is done by the Fed.

Keynesianism worked great for about 50 years.

Skydiving without a parachute works great too - for a while.

But alas, much like this, it’s not sustainable.

“You just need an independent Fed.”

It is already. What we need is to end the Fed and have the Treasury and congress do the job the Founders expected them to do.

People who think Keynesianism can be actually practiced properly don’t understand politicians.

Likewise, people who think unfettered free markets can solve everything do not understand the methods by which our current legal, political, and corporate structures operate.

As you note below, theory and practice are two entirely different beasts.

The media talks about Government creating jobs ,but there isn’t much talk about why those jobs aren’t there to begin with here in America .

Dang Housing Wizard,

I was a little mad when I wrote it but now that I read your post I’m REALLY pixxed off! And I bet some more people are too.

That’s another drawback of this recession . We don’t get the service we use to . Companies lay off workers and expect that
the public gets to endure less service so they can make a better bottom line . Do you have to wait longer for service and do you have to wait longer for complaint calls being resolved because of
the lay offs ? It’s taking me 3 calls and 3 letters to get a matter resolved and I’m sick of the lip service that the matter has been taken care of.

Not only do I not trust banks anymore ,I don’t trust Corporations/commerce anymore .

It’s interesting when Toyota came up with that floor mat recall my BS radar came up . I even had a thought that they really wanted to fix something else .

When Corporate profits are the only thing that is looked at today ,at the expense of all other values,including employing people ,than we may be eating dog shit and not know it .

“That’s another drawback of this recession . We don’t get the service we used to. Companies lay off workers and expect that
the public gets to endure less service so they can make a better bottom line .”

I refuse to use self-check out lines. Not that a check out clerk provides a lot of service, but I think we should be entitled to some minimal human service when spending our hard earned money.

I refuse to use self-check out lines.

Me either. Nor will I put up with any robo-call, no matter the source. (Our health insurance company and a local hospital have auto-called us re: scheduling, so it does seem there are a few non-annoying or non-scam uses.)

I agree. And keeping a cashier employed.

When the Oracle Road Lowes store opened, we Tucsonans breathed a sigh of relief. At long last, Home Depot had some competition.

Our family has a spreadsheet calculator…but ol’ Hwy knows something is amiss with that “budget”…(Hwy glances at Mama Cole’s hanging ebay bling & Mr. Cole’s bulging Lego boxes & Papa Cole’s “emergency” wine collection)

When I spend that kind of money in a single day, I’m horrified. Guess it’s that Scottish frugality — it’s hardwired into my DNA. (Thanks, Mom — clan MacDonald. And thanks, Dad — clan Fulton.)

I’ll try to calculate it when I get home tonight. Are you including the daily cost to live in your house, with the various utilities ? Are you including the cost of your monthly cable/cell phones divided out amongst the days of the month ? Are you dividing up the cost of your groceries on a daily basis ? I think those should all be included, not just pocket money and ATM swipes.

and the taxes you pay ea day like income tax and FICA

$77 per day here. Biggest chunk is about $14 per day Blue Cross payments. About $3.40 per day property tax.

I use a single checking account. At the end of each year I subtract the Jan 1 balance from the Dec 31 balance and then add up all the deposits during the year.

Actually it’s subtract the Dec 31 balance from the Jan 1 balance.

I have no idea what I spend per day, but I have a pretty good idea of what I spend (other than items withheld directly from paycheck) per month. I have my salary deposited into a savings account. I move a certain amount of that into my checking account once a month (generally right before I instruct the bank to send in the rent check). From that amount, I pay rent, utilities, credit cards (if anything went on cards that month) and take some cash to pay for food and incidentals during the month. Very occassionally, I’ll need to add more to the checking account to cover larger expenses. Most often there is a bit left over which builds up over time and is there to cover the bigger bills when they come (like car insurance).

So if you divide the amount I transfer to the checking account each month by 30, you would get a pretty good estimate of my daily expenses. Of course, that number doesn’t include my health insurance, taxes, etc. Those disappear before I see the money. I could figure those in if I wanted to, but it doesn’t seem like all that pressing a need.

Slim, are you good at curling? (Clan Davidson here, and just FYI, the proper term in the homeland is Scots not Scottish.)

“That the game of curling was already in existence in Scotland in the early 16th century is evidenced by a curling stone inscribed with the date 1511 (uncovered along with another bearing the date 1551) when an old pond was drained at Dunblane, Scotland.” (wiki)

I’m not good at any sports. I walk and bicycle for exercise and transportation. And I lift weights to keep from getting old and weak.

“…when an old pond was drained at Dunblane, Scotland.”

Dang it Losty, now you’ve given away the location on my favorite low cost single malt: knockando!

Did you have any luck with yer cistern pump?

Hey Hwy, I got tired of being thirsty and left (after I got unstuck, that is). The pump went out.

I’m back in Moab and glad of it (until the tourists arrive, anyway).

Thanks for the advice on the pump, BTW, good thing it wasn’t the one they used to drain the pond in Dunblane and fill those malt bottles, you’d have to go back to Squatter’s Beer.

Hey Losty, stay in touch…thinkin’ bout those red cliffs NE about 5 miles outta town…Mr.Cole would like to camp when it’s not 99-102 degrees…(them youngin’s have no clue ’bout the relationship ‘tween heat & Squatter’s delight)!

Scary, eh?

College friend of mine had a mother, a professional home economist (county extension agent), who kept books like that. Family got audited by IRS and the agent folded as soon as she pulled out the books and opened them up. Scared him…

I don’t know about anyone else, but I didn’t need to be “whipped up into righteous indignation” by anyone. The insurance and healthcare industry did that all by themselves.

Our current system is toast. As we speak, employers are off-loading full time employees, either by direct terminations, or by turning them into “contractors”. And the insurance coverage goes poof!….

Pretty soon, you’ll be hearing of people dying, because they can’t get health care coverage at any price, and can’t afford to pay for it out of pocket. Nobody is hiring kids, so the people that are still employed will be older with more medical problems. So the insurance people will cut benefits, raise premiums and co-pays.

Whether they like it or not, an alternate plan will be made.

The health care/insurance industry likes things the way they are, so they chose to be part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

Rio.. Therein lies the problem… life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness don’t cost (monetarily) anything… Please note, the founding fathers did not say you had a right to happiness.. They said you have a right to the pursuit of it. It does make a difference, and these wise men I think made a very constrained and well-reasoned decision when they said that. You might be poor, hungry, tired, sick, and miserable, but you have the right to change that yourself, not the right to have society prop you up until you are happy, well-fed, and healthy. The wording of “pursuit of happiness” IMHO tries to make that very clear.

Also, I understand that you want healthcare. You claim a lot of other people do also. With all the demand for healthcare the way you want it, why is there no supply of what it is you say you want? If the demand is so high for this thing in your opinion, why don’t you do a business plan to put it in place? You say it is *so important* to you, but you aren’t willing to put in the effort to make it happen??? You live in a free country, and are free to do so…. “Oh, wait!” you say, “There are insurance regulations that restrict the ability to enter into the insurance industry and provide this service at a competitive basis as a small business owner…” HMMM

MAYBE WE SHOULD CHANGE THAT FIRST!!!!!

I hereby resolve the following… Any HBBer who wants “better health insurance” please reply here… I hereby volunteer to work with you to organize the HBB health insurance plan. I have n criteria for this plan:

1) It need not make a corporate profit… In fact, it should operate as a non-profit.

2) It must not drop coverage of its recipients should they become sick. However, the amount of coverage provided in the plan is limited by statistical actuarial amounts. If that amount is, for instance $50k/yr, and you have a medical need which will cost more than $50k, you will only receive $50k in that year, even if it means you will suffer horribly or die. The amount of coverage is subject to change year to year based on the plan participant population and assets on hand. It will be published on the front page of the website in big bold font.

3) It must reward plan participants for meeting realistic preventative healthcare goals as laid out during medical exams with a real doctor. I.e. doc says lose 10 pounds to meet health goal, or “quit smoking”.

4) The jobs inside the company must accept “volunteer help” from members in order to reduce costs when volunteers are available.

5) A covered medical procedures list will be published. If new procedures are requested to be added to the approved procedures list, a board elected by the general membership of the insurance group will vote on whether to add the procedure/device/medicine to the approved list. The list, actuarial tables, and coverage amounts will be updated at the new year accordingly.

6) A “charity case” board will be randomly selected from the member list. A new board will be randomly selected every 3 months to review cases. Members will have the option to donate an additional amount over their premium cost for use by the “charity board”. The charity board will review all cases before them and decide to award any monies available during that 3 month period to the list of cases in the order of need that they determine. One board of 5 members shall be chosen for every 25000 members in the plan. Therefore, if 100,000 members are in the plan, there will be 4 “charity boards”. Charity monies will be distributed equally among the various boards. The board may allot some, all, or none of the money available to them, but in no case may it allocate more than is available. Any charity amount allotted to a member will not be deducted from their yearly maximum insurable award under the regular insurance policy.

That is my start.. Again, I am willing to coordinate to make this happen. I think health care is not a basic human right, but is a basic human need.

Math is math. Every other first-world country provides cheaper universal health care except the USA. Why? Because it’s different in the USA?

If your religion says so, fine. Apparently you’ve made up your mind. I have a documented story which shows that the price of health care varies by a factor of at least 2 depending just on who makes the phone call. You, on the other hand, pull numbers out of thin air and decide that they prove health care is cheaper everywhere else. Believe what you want.

Please note, the founding fathers did not say you had a right to happiness..

I know, that’s a good point that I’ll address it in the context of how health-care is an issue that engages the Constitution’s ideals much more today than it did at the time of the Constitution’s writing.

Many today say, “but the Constitution said nothing about health-care or health insurance”. Of course it didn’t, there was no health insurance and back then it wouldn’t have mattered because health care was not a factor in public health or policy as it is today. Bleeding anyone? The rich and poor, old and young were on an even playing field when it came to health care.

Public health care was an issue that had no importance. Back then there was no differences in peoples chances for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness due to having health coverage or not.

We were all in the same boat as Americans in that era. Paul Revere didn’t worry about his Blue Shield plan not covering horse falls and Thomas Jefferson did not worry about his Virginia Blue Cross not covering him in Philadelphia while he wrote the Declaration of Independence. Can you imagine if they did?

Can you imagine the bouts of creativity, new businesses, jobs and the pursuit of justice and happiness if we were released from the shackles of our current health insurance system, if everybody was covered?

It is different now when a good health plan can mean life or death, a new job or starting a business. It is a huge difference that should impact public policy.

Besides the Constitution is a “living” document. How is the right to health care in this context much different than women’s suffrage or the abolition of slavery neither mentioned in the Constitution. We evolve and apply the Constitutions principals to new times and issues that make a difference in that time.

Health-care is a defining issue in our time.

If your religion says so,

That was weird.

Can you imagine the bouts of creativity, new businesses, jobs and the pursuit of justice and happiness if we were released from the shackles of our current health insurance system, if everybody was covered?

Yes, I can. It means that, for a time, our national anthem will be “Take This Job and Shove It.”

Yes, I can. It means that, for a time, our national anthem will be “Take This Job and Shove It.”

lol But then they could all become independent like you right?

But seriously, too many people need $$ to all dump their jobs all at once.

But it would give American’s much more freedom.

Hmmmmmm

“Take this job and shove it” Good Johnny Paycheck song but check out “Only Hell (my Momma ever Raised)” too.

RE: Besides the Constitution is a “living” document.

Yes it is. We the people have the right to amend the constitution as we see fit according to the rules of that constitution. It has happened 16 times. Other than that … BS…

Saying that a document that establishes my freedom of speech (and other freedoms in the bill of rights) is open to wide interpretation depending on the times opens the door to the interpretation that freedom of speech means “only in free speech zones”, or freedom of religion means, “except if that religion says not to teach kids evolution as fact”, or that freedom to bear arms means “when the gov’t says it is ok”.

Yes, we live in relatively stable times *NOW* . But the constitution wasn’t designed to just flutter away during peaceful prosperous times. It was designed to survive hardship, war, political strife, and revolution. I think it is demeaning to the sacrifice of those who fought so hard to establish it, to willy nilly call it a “living document” without even trying to use it as it was intended by amending it.

Further, you claim that some utopia is imminent by the imposition of taxes for the purpose of insurance:
“Can you imagine the bouts of creativity, new businesses, jobs and the pursuit of justice and happiness if we were released from the shackles of our current health insurance system, if everybody was covered? ”

Let me tell you something, car insurance which is IMHO a pretty well run system, by no means creates Utopia out of the disaster that is a head on collision. Once the human body is damaged, it is a pretty damn sad thing in many cases.

Further, you claim that public health was an issue of no importance in the early days of this country. Where the hell do you get that from? All I see in your post is imagination, optimism, and faith in some magical system that will cure all the ills that life is fraught with. I see no data, no evidence of sustainability, no presentation of choice to the people you would impose this system on.

I have heard every argument about how the health care systems of foreign countries have better outcomes at a lower per capita cost. I have seen the cases of cancerous children denied care in America. I believe improvements can be made to the way things currently are, but I have seen no evidence that placing this power in the hands of Federal gov’t will result in anything other than a deficit ridden program lowering the standard of living even more all Americans through debt, inflation, and poor management.

Is there anything… just name it.. that is preventing this mass of people clamoring for saving from the “horror” of health insurance by the federal govt from banding together, insuring each other, and *choosing* to participate? If your answer is poverty, then I agree with you. If not, I disagree. However, the solution to poverty is not taxation, but rather education, freedom, and hard work.

Let me tell you something, car insurance which is IMHO a pretty well run system, by no means creates Utopia out of the disaster that is a head on collision.

I think you may have missed the point that there are lots of people out there who would be much more likely to strike out on their own if they weren’t dependent on staying with their current health care provider.

First we are told, based on a second hand anecdote and numbers pulled out of thin air, that an operation (quadruple bi pass with a week in hospital) which costs $25K in Canada would cost $70K here.

You…pull numbers out of thin air and decide that they prove health care is cheaper everywhere else. LehighValleyGuy

I was going to let it pass but you got kind of rude to me with the above and calling it my religion and stuff. Do you really think your second hand anecdote about a friend getting a lower price on a hospital bill is a good basis for people to accept the status quo? Do you know how many times I’ve bargained in the same way?

Does anyone here doubt that a week in a US hospital with complications from a quadruple bypass could cost $70K? I pulled the number out of thin air? My Dad had such an operation.

OK here, let me pull this out of the thin air. You can pull it too with the link.

Mired in debt, more people 55 and older face bankruptcy August 5, 2007 Herald Tribune

Quadruple bypass surgery followed the heart attack. After she was discharged, medicines cost her $900 a week. The hospital bill was $80,000, with another $10,000 in charges from doctors.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20070805/NEWS/708050695?p=1&tc=pg

Looks like maybe $100,000 there. And that was in 2007. It’s not cheaper now. And I never said it cost 25K in Canada, I said that’s what the Canucks thought it would cost. It was an anecdote remember?

But everybody knows Canada’s system is cheaper and has better results but here’s a GREAT article I’m pulling out of “thin air” to prove it if you want to read it.

Debunking Canadian health care myths 6/7/09 Denver post.

Because if the only way we compared the two systems was with statistics, there is a clear victor. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to dispute the fact that Canada spends less money on health care to get better outcomes.

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427

To follow on my last rant, I also want to just refute a few points you tried to make:

1) “It is different now when a good health plan can mean life or death, a new job or starting a business. It is a huge difference that should impact public policy.”

You kinda sound like a Real Estate agent… It’s different here, it’s different now. How? Why? You have no reason in your statement. People are still people. They still get cancer. Without modern hospitals/healthcare/insurance people still started businesses in the 1700’s 1800’s 1900’s .

2) Many today say, “but the Constitution said nothing about health-care or health insurance”. “Of course it didn’t, there was no health insurance and back then it wouldn’t have mattered because health care was not a factor in public health or policy as it is today. Bleeding anyone? The rich and poor, old and young were on an even playing field when it came to health care.”

HAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!! The rich and poor were on an even playing field — HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! With statements like this, you really shouldn’t try to speak up to represent a pro-nationalized health care system. Before modern medicine, basically started by a Scottish guy named Hunter in the 1700’s, healthcare consisted of who had the most sanitary living conditions, and nutrition. If you got sick and you had a warm bed and good food, you might get better… if you were poor, hungry, and in a peasant’s house, you would die of pneumonia or infection. So hmm, lets see, did the rich have an advantage? I think you might now be able to make a clearer statement regarding if they did.

The founding fathers if anything saw that poverty led directly to sickness, disability, and death. By establishing the constitution, they sought exactly to provide the prosperity of the people of the nation through freedom. The constitution is *entirely about health* because it is about prosperity through freedom, and prosperity equals improved health. Nowhere however did they attempt to legislate prosperity directly to the poor through taxing the citizens. Rather, by establishing a nation of law that we are all treated equally within, they gave us as a people prosperity, and we have taken that and applied it to improve our lives as they saw, through medicine, technology, and commerce.

Finally 3) How is the right to health care in this context much different than women’s suffrage or the abolition of slavery neither mentioned in the Constitution. We evolve and apply the Constitutions principals to new times and issues that make a difference in that time.

Since you don’t see it clearly yourself, I will point out the very simple reasons it is different.

a) amendment 13

b) amendment 15

c) amendment 19

d) the reasons for those amendments being that the gov’t was denying a class of people of the right to participate in gov’t as citizens.

e) the gov’t is not currently denying anyone access to health insurance based on their being in a class of people. If you have money you can pay for it, or not.

f) The idea you propose *would deny* the citizens of this country the further choice of how to spend even more of their earnings.

g) amendment 18 & 21 - we tried legislation imposed upon the people to control them “for their own good”. Amending the constitution is a big deal, and we had to undo a very big mistake, and made a very big deal about undoing that very big mistake with another amendment.

h) If you want a public healthcare system, the states already have the power to implement such a system: example: Hawaii. Keep the feds the heck out of it, there is no reason to consolidate that kind of power into the hands of so few.

i) Last reason neither one of us should bring this up again here: this is the HBB. Lets talk about housing and how the feds are screwing up that program, and leave it at just the 1 program they are screwing up instead of 10 others that they might.

Carl, I would be much more likely to strike out on my own if I had a million dollars. Why don’t you give it to me?

Hey Mathguy, take a deep breath.

RE: Besides the Constitution is a “living” document.

Yes it is, but your other rant projecting your queer interpretation of what I said is a bit delusional. Amusing and predictable from those with certain leanings, but delusional.

Yes, we live in relatively stable times *NOW* .

You think so? I disagree. And I don’t know where you came up with that other pseudo-patriotic stuff and tried to apply it to what I just said. Do you think you have a monopoly on American patriotism. You don’t pal. Re-read me dude.

Further, you claim that some utopia is imminent by the imposition of taxes for the purpose of insurance:

Hey that’s good Mathguy, 2 buzz words in one sentence but ya gotta work on the delivery and rationality in the application of your arguments. Just a tip.

Let me tell you something

Something coherent please.

Further, you claim that public health was an issue of no importance in the early days of this country. Where the hell do you get that from?

Re-read it, it’s there. (and you cussed)

I see no data….

See no data, hear no data, speak no data?

Here’s a great article with a bunch of nice data comparing the US and Canadian Health Care system. But I don’t think it uses the word “Utopia”
http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427

I have heard every argument about how the health care systems of foreign countries have better outcomes at a lower per capita cost.

Hearing is a good start. Now try to listen maybe?

Don’t shoot the messenger, I just thought you were missing the point. So I take it you think we’re better off as a country keeping potential entrepreneurs chained to their cubes writing TPS reports just because they have families and/or may have gotten sick at some point in the past? One way or another we pay…

math guy- your logic is stunning(ly lacking). Back to math.

I believe the current US system is 5-10 years out from acute failure and there is nothing that can save it. This failure will be so complete that a new, cheaper, better system will evolve from the ashes.

That’s my take Rio. I hope the lame reform fails and we get outrageous rate increases for another couple years, horror stories ad nauseum, and then the universal coverage we expect.

Maybe with exploding budgets (and pensions) all around us we will decide what we want to spend on the nations healthcare for the following fiscal year and ration it as intelligently as possible. We need a good typhoid epidemic. It’s a joke when you you hear news people say “consult your doctor”.

If we want to go the real “original america” route let’s drop any requirement for licensing or certification of medical doctors. maybe we would see some relief in the cost of health care. wouldn’t be pretty but anything is better than the dysfunctional system we have now.

Rio,

You do know the term ad hominem? You can call an argument delusional, but unless you refute it you are simply on the losing end of the debate because you have no fact to support your conclusion.

I did not say that I had seen no data indicating lower per capita costs in other countries. I said I saw no data that showed those other countries were in the black while providing said care. I seriously thought that everyone here agreed that the out of control debt was a major cause of so many of our current maladies… Do you disagree??

I’ve reviewed the tax rates for Canada vs US with paying for healthcare. It looks like you actually pay less for taxes + healthcare in Canada through the govt system at lower income levels (say under 50k/yr). Fine. At higher income levels, this does break down, into a sort of “tax the successful” scheme. Also fine, as long as we acknowledge it… I’m not rich, but am mildly successful, and would have to pay more personally towards healthcare. This *is* part of the reason I am against it. Can we both acknowledge that? However, what is the *rest* of the reason I am against it?

1) I like to make my own choices. You may want to make the choice for me and force me into *your* form of healthcare, but it’s not what I want. I also don’t want to pay taxes to support the wars we are currently in, or to support banks that I don’t want in charge of my life. Isn’t this supposed to be a free country? Can’t you let me have that? Can’t you let me make my own choice?

2) There are people.. poor people… people without jobs who are suffering. I understand that. I know you want to help them. I want to help them too. But at some point, I might need the money more than them. I might want to fund development on a new nanotech robotic device that will save millions of people from leukemia. Or I might just need a frickin vacation in the Bahamas. Can’t you trust me to make the decision with money I worked for?

3) Medical bills could completely wipe me out. They could take all my money and force me into bankruptcy. Or I could potentially decide that the amount of money it would cost to extend my life by 6 months isn’t worth it, and I would prefer to leave an inheritance to my children or grandchildren. Isn’t it my right to provide for my progeny? Shouldn’t I alone have the responsibility of making that determination? Shouldn’t I alone have the motivation to succeed and become financially secure to be able to afford to comfortably make such a decision? What motivation to excel and succeed should people be left with? If healthcare is “free” and I have no need to decide when to restrict my use of it to save money, won’t I freely partake of the bonanza?

4) Finally you talk about people being free to leave their jobs and start new companies… Who pays for their healthcare while they are doing so? How many chances do they get before we say, uhh sorry, now you actually do have to pay?

Really, I’ve tried to address your points with reason. Despite the ad hominem attacks on the points I have made, I haven’t seen the effort from anyone who disagrees to actually provide a counter example to the above points. I think I have actually done so with some of the points you make, although I am guilty of an ad hominem or two myself.

I’ve also not seen a reason why our current non-profit organization structure is unable to accommodate a “utopian” system as you envision where participants are *free* to participate, and not forced. And I’ve definitely not seen a reason why it is better to force free people to bow to yet another burden to be placed on their backs, and controlled by politicians I thought we all agreed had little to no interest in actually looking out for us as individuals, but rather are led by the nose by corporate interests backing their campaign funds.

Rio, for data you gave a story about a woman who has a poor aunt in Canada who got a knee replacement after 14 months. The article cites no sources in the claims it makes. And the subheading of the article is “perspective”. And using that as your source, about the strongest claim that the article makes is :

It is not a perfect system, but it has its merits. For people like my 55-year-old Aunt Betty, who has been waiting for 14 months for knee-replacement surgery due to a long history of arthritis, it is the superior system.

In other words, a poor person got a treatment that wasn’t even lifesaving, but just “life improving” so it (the Canadian system) is better. Further she didn’t have to pay the $35,000 that the surgery was estimated to cost, but rather that burden was foisted off onto the rest of the higher earning Canadians…

Then Carl says “we’re better off keeping workers chained to a desk doing TPS reports… ” OMFG!!! You would think this is communist russia! I promise you, I don’t like my (current) cubicle job that much either, but

1) I just showed up, did what they told me, and they gave me money, health insurance, paid vacation, free coffee, staff assistance services through paychex, direct deposit into my checking account, and air conditioning

2) I didn’t even have to sweat in the sun, find a client, swing a hammer, manage a project, talk to a customer, worry about profitability, find financing, form a corporation, shovel a load of earth, or just about anything else. I just type some stuff on a keyboard…

Holy moly I feel lucky to be so blessed as to have that crummy job sometimes. I have had to dig a ditch and lay bricks and stack rocks during my masonry job. And after 8 hours in that air conditioned, shaded quiet office, I am free to go do whatever the heck I want, including start my own company or rant on some blog. Heck I can even rant on a blog while I’m IN the office sometimes..

On top of that, any old time I want, I can just up and quit this job when I find one I like better!!!

I have started a company twice before. I dedicated myself to the first one at a young age, and it failed spectacularly, leaving me in debt. That crummy job I have had for the past 7 years has paid off all that debt from my first big unguided mistake, gave me a huge amount of experience in the operation and management of a technology company, and afforded me the free time to start my own business on the side again. Mostly when you stop grumbling about how crappy you have it and start looking around where you are at and how things are you can both find motivation to improve your current situation, and learn something from those people you call fools who are your bosses.

This was also the case at the masonry company I worked at, despite my grunt status. I learned enough digging ditches, tying rebar and compacting the sand under house foundations that I could probably now build my own house foundation, with a beautiful fireplace, and frame it up in a safe way that wouldn’t be a fire hazard.

Yes I am bragging a little bit. I worked hard and payed attention, while a bunch of other guys were bitching about how crappy the job was, and what an A-hole the boss was. To imagine that a bunch of grumbling TPS report making unmotivated workers who need to be cajoled and coddled into getting the least bit of work done are going to run out and be Titans of industry all because they have free health insurance strikes me as plain absurd.

Those people who are going to go be titans of industry are already doing it after they finish their mail delivery route in the big corporate office, and their second shift at Jack in the box. Nothing is going to stop them because they are bad asses. Don’t be jealous. Be a bad ass.

Mathguy,
Sorry Mathguy, it’s later in Brazil and I went to bed but I did respond enough to your earlier rants. The problem is it’s too tedious and non-productive to respond to about six pages of single spaced Rush talking points that were laid out in a very dis-jointed, unorganized, overly aggressive and illogical manner.

Add in dashes of projecting your mischaracterizations upon my writing, sprinkled with your own delusions of grandeur (We know…we know…your a bad ass, congrats) and it’s not worth it to respond. You wouldn’t listen anyway. No one coming from where you do ever does which is amusing in a pathetic sort of way.

As far as responding to try to influence people on the fence. The writing is there. My posts are there and so are yours. I’m very satisfied with the contrast of points made (or not) if anyone cares to judge.

The last thing I will respond to is on the data, If you don’t have enough research on the on the Canadian health-care stats compared to USAs, it’s there and it’s clear. Canada has better stats for a cheaper cost and Canada covers everyone. Do some objective research. Do some real work like you told everyone you can.

And this is not my writing style, but to take it down to the level of your rants and your last sentence (so you might relate better….)

Don’t stay ignorant, excessively biased and politically brainwashed. Be objective. Be a bad ass” (researcher)

Mathguy,

I’m reasonably happy at my corporate job with good insurance, etc., sounds like basically the same situation you’re in. I don’t have experience running my own business because I haven’t been particularly motivated to start one.

All I’m saying is that I think you underestimate the number of people who fall somewhere in between the “badasses” and the slugs, who *could* produce more for our country but must take the safe route instead. Lots of pre-existing conditions out there, among both workers and their families. I can’t say for sure whether universal health care would strengthen or weaken the country, but I am sure that there are some who could contribute more if it were available and health care concerns were no longer keeping them chained to their current job.

Carl, rather than worrying about maybe getting those who have not proved themselves to be more productive, we should just try a bit harder to get off the backs of the people who have proven themselves productive, and let them create jobs and wealth for everyone, and get rich in the process.

I used to believe that, but I can’t buy it any more. It’s arrogant elitism and it plays right into the hands of the PTB.

The insurance company may have reported to your friend that they paid 13k, but the reality is that most negotiate a far lower payment then an uninsured person gets.

My friend has an Explanation of Benefits Statement that says the plan paid the hospital 13K. Are you saying the statement is wrong, or that there was some other payment under the table?

I’m telling you that the norm is that insurance companies get a much better price than individuals even when the individual tries to get a lower rate.

I suspect that your friend got a quote for the surgery, and that the bill the insurance company paid covered surgery, anesthesia, hospital room, and everything else. It’s also possible that they get a kick back based on volume, or they get a big discount for other hospital bills. The insurance companies aren’t making record profits and profit margins by paying every bill that comes across their desk. They devote entire departments to denying care, delaying payment, and shifting risk.

I agree with measton. I had my gall bladder removed last year and according to the statements from the insurance company they paid about 25% of the “rack rate”.

My friend has an Explanation of Benefits Statement that says the plan paid the hospital 13K. Are you saying the statement is wrong, or that there was some other payment under the table?

I can’t speak to your friend’s case, but in our household’s most recent medical go-around we received invoices with the “retail” (e.g., non-healthcare behemoth) price of medicines, procedures, personnel, facilities, etc., which in no way reflected the prices that an insurance entity pays. The discount from “retail” varied per line item. My household paid approximately 2% of the total costs — a reasonable cost for us … but the full “retail” prices would’ve easily bankrupted most households.

In response to the discussion above involving the Constitution
I have a few responses .

The Constitution doesn’t cover the issue of monopolies either
or stacked deck commerce ,but in the course of history this
Nation has found it necessary to enact laws to regulated this
concept of capitalism and the pursuit of happiness .

The health care system is not operational on the principals of pure capitalism to begin with ,so why act like it is . It’s a insurance principal that people who don’t use the system pay for the ones that do use the system . The Insurance system adds to the costs so they make a profit and the medical
providers raise the costs because insurance providers pay because they are collecting more than the actual services
would cost in a pure supply and demand market . Now the costs have taken on a life of their own and the health of the Insurance Company is more important than the health of the
Citizens .

Its necessary to provide basic health care for Citizens ,especially from the standpoint of what could happen in high population areas if this wasn’t done . So on issues that cover the ability for the general population to pursue happiness ,health care figures in on being necessary in that equation .
What percentage health care should take from the monthly
nut is the issue . I don’t think health care should take more than 10% of the average income of the American family ,but that’s just me .

No, silly, neither Cheech nor Chong have festivals. Bob Marley Festival is a traveling annual reggae festival. You can get all the hemp products and tie-dye that you can imagine there.

+1000

Yes: in the end, the Fed/Goldman Sachs/Megabank will own all stocks before eventually owning everything.

Of course stocks won’t be worth much with an entire population that can’t afford anything.

ALL YOUR STOCKS ARE BELONG TO US

What about the single men who don’t pay for it? I have no idea who gets more, but mark me down as a married guy who gets “enough” and therefore doesn’t waste much energy stressing over it.

That’s what I was thinking.

Team dingle Barry thought that the phone man could handle it.

Call me ignorant…er…stupid…er…

Whatever.

Just don’t call me an idiot!

My point?

$ is their word.

This will end well.

Sigh…hmmghmmmm, deeeeeeep breath…

Leigh

(owe, that is) ow-ch.

Look closely, that’s a turn of the century vintage house on Chicago’s south side in the 1950s. This is what subdividing those once grand houses eventually led too. Formerly grand houses were subdivided to the extreme - rooms walled off with cardboard! There’s pictures of this - such conditions were widespread in Chicago’s “Black Belt” into the postwar period.

Think… flying cast iron skillets…headed your way. But if you hit the ground when someone yells …GOOSE! …that’ll work too I reckon.

My dentist/quack must be hurting for business……

Got a flyer from him in the mail the other day. All kinds of “news” stories, stressing the terrors that await those who do not visit their dentist regularly.

Dr. Pricey has sent me newsletters like that too. They started coming regularly in the past couple of years. Which, IMHO, is when her business really started to turn downward.

The latest is a letter, signed by the practice administrator, saying that Dr. Pricey is very concerned about my health.

“wait ten days for a note in the mail”