The Luxurious Lifestyle Never Materialized In Florida
The Miami Herald reports from Florida. “The undeveloped tract planned to hold luxury condos, high-end retail and posh hotel rooms at Biscayne Landing will go to the highest bidder at a foreclosure auction April 6. But only if the city of North Miami approves the buyer. Meanwhile, the only complete part of the Biscayne Landing project, two condominium towers plagued with low occupancy rates and owners who complain the luxurious lifestyle promised in sales brochures never materialized, is mired in a separate foreclosure. The 173 unsold units are scheduled for another public auction May 11 after BLIA Developers, the Boca Developers subsidiary that developed The Oaks, lost a $35.5 million foreclosure lawsuit in February.”
“‘Everything that happens at Biscayne Landing matters to us. It’s horrifying, the uncertainty about what might happen around your home,’ said Sylvia Londono who spent $400,000 on her two-bedroom condo in The Oaks.”
“Even if the city allowed concessions, Michael Cannon, a real estate analyst, said a potential developer has to consider the environmental factors tied to the site. ‘I hope the bidder understands the market and the condition of the land, which was a former garbage dump.’ Cannon said.”
The Orlando Sentinel. “In what could be the first sign of thawing in downtown Orlando’s iced-over condominium market, an auction of bankrupt tower The Vue at Lake Eola is attracting a pack of big-money bidders. Janne Keskinen, a Finnish real estate investor who owns a home in Lake Worth and is leading Blue Key on behalf of a group of European investors, said The Vue is a good buy. ‘It’s a good tower, it’s new, the location is good in the downtown,’ he told me. ‘We are pretty close to the bottom [of the market], but not yet. It’s going to be a long-term investment, anyway.’”
The Palm Beach Post. “The unfinished Trump International Hotel & Tower on Fort Lauderdale beach is facing foreclosure, after developers defaulted on a $139 million loan on the long-awaited condo-hotel project. The new mortgage holder filed for foreclosure against the developers. The suit also names more than 80 people who put deposits on condos, but never received the units or refunds, and now seek liens on the high-rise that was to include 298 condos.”
“It’s still unclear what the mortgage holder will do with the 24-story property: keep it as a condo-hotel, make it a traditional hotel or something else — options that worry lawyers for the condo buyers.’I've been suspecting they will make it a hotel, because the developers never recorded the condo documents,’ said Fort Lauderdale lawyer Joseph E. Altschul, one of the attorneys for the condo buyers.”
The St Petersburg Times. “Don’t mistake Jon Gollinger for any old auctioneer. He fancies himself more of a marketer and consumer advocate. Hundreds of Tampa Bay residents saw Gollinger in action March 7 when he emceed the sale of more than 50 units at St. Petersburg’s 36-story Signature Place condo tower.”
“Fresh off of the St. Petersburg auction, Gollinger chatted with the Times. Q: So you view yourself more as real estate price setter?”
A: There’s been a price disconnect for a very long time between sellers and buyers. Our company is brought in to create a safe space for buyers and sellers to engage in a process that allows the building to capitulate to the consumer. Our company believes that the consumer rules. That’s American. That’s capitalism. The Signature Place developer would have liked to have seen a little more money out of it. But he can live with the results.”
The Pensacola News Journal. “The amount of bad real estate debt and nonperforming loans held by local banks soared in the past year, sure signs of continuing weakness in the region’s economy. Making matters much worse, she said, federal regulations give bankers very limited leeway in dealing with customers. In years gone by, bankers were able to give customers they believed in the time and latitude to work out businesses problems. Now, they have to slam the door much more quickly.”
“‘The perception is what we’ve got to change,’ said Carol Carlan, market president of Destin-based Gulf South. ‘We’ve got to become doers. We have to quit looking at the glass as half full.’”
“What’s more, appraisals of collateralized properties, ordered by federal regulators, are gutting asset values and inflicting heavy losses on banks’ bottom lines. ‘When you look at the nonperforming asset numbers, they may be down only slightly,’ Bauer’s Dorway said. ‘But if you look more closely at their books, the banks have had enormous charge-offs.’”
“Former Pensacola banker Eric Nickelsen, now a board member of New Orleans-based Whitney Bank, agrees with Dorway. ‘The federal government is coming in and telling banks, for example, to write down a $3 million piece of property to $2 million, a $1 million charge-off,’ he said. ‘They do that even though the loan is a performing loan.’”
The Toronto Star. “Last November Stacey Lynn found herself in Florida pondering whether to buy a condominium in Naples or one in nearby Sarasota. The Toronto woman ended up buying both. ‘The prices were truly amazing, especially when you factor in the exchange rate,’ said Lynn, explaining her splurge.”
“Not since the Japanese started snapping up real estate in Manhattan have a group of foreign buyers been as prevalent in U.S. markets. ‘There is certainly a greater confidence out there with Canadians. It’s not just economic. There is a sense that we are players on the world stage,’ said Philip McKernan, author of South of 49: The Canadian Guide to Buying Residential Real Estate in the United States.”
“Lynn’s first buy was a relatively new one-bedroom condominium in upscale Naples near the beach for $54,900. That’s about what parking would cost at a new luxury condominium in downtown Toronto. (An extra parking spot at the still-to-be-completed Ritz Carlton on Wellington St., for example, costs $55,000 Canadian.) And for just another $5,000, Lynn could have her condo fully furnished.”
“‘Being in Toronto you become jaded at the high prices. There really is a bit of a disconnect to what is happening here and what is happening in the U.S.,’ said Lynn.”
“The bonus was that there were already tenants in both units. The smaller property gets $700 a month in rent, while the two-bedroom gets $1,000. After taxes and condo fees, Lynn says she now nets $1,000 per month gross before any income taxes on the properties. Plus, she hopes the properties will go up in value over the next five years. ‘The worst-case scenario is that I have something to look forward to when I retire,’ says Lynn.”
From Florida Today. “When Jim Poulos took a job transfer to Brevard County in 2008, he decided to buy a townhouse in Melbourne. He wanted to retire there. And he did what thousands of other newcomers to the Sunshine State do every year: He filed for a homestead exemption. The property appraiser turned down his request, saying he was already receiving a similar benefit on his Long Island, N.Y., home.”
“Poulos took the matter before the Value Adjustment Board, which also turned him down. Poulos said the process is tilted in favor of the property appraiser. ‘I kind of feel like I’ve been pushed around in this process.’”
“‘What is causing the appeals is that taxes are going up,’ said Sheila Anderson, an Ocala real estate broker who advises clients throughout Florida on petitions to Value Adjustment Boards. ‘Prices are dropping and they want their taxes to drop as well.’”
“Difficulties in setting property values, given the high number of foreclosures and other distressed sales, has contributed to the surge in petitions granted, as has the fact that property appraisers are being required to have a higher standard of proof of the accuracy of their assessments. The situation isn’t unique to Brevard. Challenges to appraisals are up all around the state, said Duval County Property Appraiser Jim Overton. Overton said that appraiser’s offices around the state have been overwhelmed.”
“‘Frankly, it is killing us,’ he said.”
“As sales slowed over the past few years — and with many of those sales being foreclosures or short sales — the number of ‘qualified’ sales for comparison purposes shrunk. ‘One of the problems we are having is that for a while there the sample size on the sales were so small that we were afraid to make adjustments,’ Overton said.”
“Poulos said he’s come to see tax challenges as a nearly hopeless battle. ‘The county and state will always get its pound of flesh,’ he said. ‘They always do.’”
The News Press. “For five years, the residents of Fort Myers’ Sherwood community have put away $10,000 a year for future road improvements. Believing the community’s roads were private, owners of its 245 homes have paid $7,200 for streetlights and $44,000 a year for a security service to keep watch at night.”
“It turns out they didn’t have to. The roads are public, according to Fort Myers. That means streetlights and road maintenance are the city’s responsibility, not the residents’. The confusion over the roads is one of a multitude of issues Sherwood has had since it was developed. During the housing boom, some homes in the community, which is not gated, went for as much as $400,000. But the housing crisis has forced values down 60 percent.”
“‘A lot of residents are saying, ‘This isn’t what I signed on for,’ said Fidel Balan, vice president of Sherwood’s homeowners association. ‘All we’re asking for is to have our roads back.’”
“Balan is concerned because drivers looking to avoid rush hour’s bumper-to-bumper traffic on SR 82 often cut through the community. And customers at the Dairy Queen next to Sherwood can easily access the neighborhood because the DQ’s parking lot connects to Sherwood’s roads. Part of the problem is police can’t enforce traffic laws on Sherwood’s streets because its street signs don’t meet Florida Department of Transportation standards. And its streets are about half of public streets’ required size.”
“Resident Philip Barker wants to have clarity on the issue. He said his community is often misrepresented, for example, on his property appraisal. ‘It’s listed as a gated community on our deed,’ said Barker, who moved to Sherwood two years ago.”
The Miami New Times. “There was a time — say, last summer — when no clerk wanted to enter a certain room on the 15th floor of a drab Miami-Dade County municipal building downtown. Inside lurked a multiton beast made of dead trees: the collection of pending foreclosure case files for the county. Since the economy began its nosedive, roughly 8,000 foreclosures have been filed per month, which is about the number the county used to have in a year, according to Clerk of the Courts Harvey Ruvin: ‘We have 125,000 open files. If you piled all of them on top of each other, it would make a 24-story building.’”
“‘You could hear the floors creaking under all the weight,’ says an employee of Ruvin’s, a female clerk who asked not to be named. ‘It’s going to blow,’ says an older female clerk, who, like her colleague, requested anonymity. ‘You go in there? Do a Hail Mary first.’”
“Ruvin is counting on a 2-month-old online foreclosure auction system to speed up the process and save his employees from the growing paper bog. Count among his disbelievers Luis Garcia, a public records researcher and entrenched courthouse denizen. He points at missing stone tablets on the exterior of 73 W. Flagler, nets installed to catch decaying pieces of the building, and a chain-link fence blocking pedestrians from falling debris. ‘Doesn’t it look like it’s made out of broken Legos?’ he posits. ‘This whole freakin’ building is coming down!’”
“Hundreds of thousands of foreclosure cases clog state courts. In Pinellas, Pasco and Hillsborough, the mortgage default case load exceeds 50,000. Court-ordered mediation was pitched as a faster and easier way to ease Florida’s mortgage crisis. But it’s turning out to be neither fast nor easy. Faced with the task of setting up a program largely from scratch, Pinellas and Pasco counties won’t start offering foreclosure mediation until June 1 at the earliest. Hillsborough County has yet to set a date.”
“But will mediation work? According to the Collins Center for Public Policy, only half of Florida homeowners sign up for mediation in courts that have experimented with it. Another large group of distressed homeowners — real estate investors without a homestead exemption — aren’t eligible for mediation.”
“The Supreme Court requires that bank representatives have full authority to approve mortgage workouts with homeowners. But in many cases, banks just service loans owned by distant investors and have no final say, said Matt Weidner, a St. Petersburg lawyer who defends homeowners in foreclosure cases. ‘The Supreme Court can order what it wants, but the investors who own these loans haven’t signed off,’ Weidner said of mediation. ‘It’s really a farce.’”
The Naples News. “State Rep. Tom Grady, R-Naples, is filing legislation to allow a foreclosure victim to fast-track the process. ‘Speeding up the process of foreclosing on properties, while providing dignity and access to courts for borrowers, will help solve these problems,’ Grady said.”
“For borrowers who are underwater in their homes, the bill will prevent lenders, who use the fast-track process, from recovering more than simply what the house is worth. ‘In other words, lenders will be barred from seeking a deficiency judgment, and that’s a huge benefit for consumers,’ Grady said.”
“‘For neighborhoods, the quicker the banks take over the property, the faster the financial institutions can begin taking care of the home’s issues, including utility and water bills, as well as the upkeep of the house itself,’ Grady said. ‘It’s even more significant for condo owners who have to pay association fees and special assessments to continue to maintain the common areas.’”
“Grady adds that ‘this bill will cost taxpayers nothing and better yet, it will help bring jobs back to Florida.’ The faster foreclosed homes are moved off the market and home buyers get back in the market, Grady believes ‘we will see a ripple effect, with people spending on their new homes again, meaning people in the construction industry can get back to work again. I have never known a new homeowner who hasn’t hired plumbers, electricians, landscapers and others to help make a house a home.’”
‘There is certainly a greater confidence out there with Canadians. It’s not just economic. There is a sense that we are players on the world stage,’ said Philip McKernan’
This is one of those ‘during the mania’ quotes to be remembered.
And, earlier in Mr. McKernan’s hot air blast, we have this gem:
Not since the Japanese started snapping up real estate in Manhattan have a group of foreign buyers been as prevalent in U.S. markets.
Well, Mr. McKernan, here’s a bit of history: The Japanese were indeed snapping up (gawd, I hate that expression) Manhattan real estate during the late 1980s. But, unfortunately for them, they were buying at the top of the market.
The long run was not kind to them. Methinks that a similar fate will befall our Neighbors to the North.
Not since the Japanese started snapping up real estate in Manhattan have a group of foreign buyers been as prevalent in U.S. markets.
This one is even better. Can’t anyone remember how many really high end properties the Japanese bought, only to unload them years later for a much lower price? I am laughing myself silly at this quote.
Pebble beach went thru this, and a reading of history gives one quite a sense of dejavu.
Can the following be true - can she really be netting $1000/month??? WTH!
—-
“Lynn’s first buy was a relatively new one-bedroom condominium in upscale Naples near the beach for $54,900. That’s about what parking would cost at a new luxury condominium in downtown Toronto. (An extra parking spot at the still-to-be-completed Ritz Carlton on Wellington St., for example, costs $55,000 Canadian.) And for just another $5,000, Lynn could have her condo fully furnished.”
“‘Being in Toronto you become jaded at the high prices. There really is a bit of a disconnect to what is happening here and what is happening in the U.S.,’ said Lynn.”
“The bonus was that there were already tenants in both units. The smaller property gets $700 a month in rent, while the two-bedroom gets $1,000. After taxes and condo fees, Lynn says she now nets $1,000 per month gross before any income taxes on the properties. Plus, she hopes the properties will go up in value over the next five years. ‘The worst-case scenario is that I have something to look forward to when I retire,’ says Lynn.”
The $1000 in profit sounds a little iffy considering she only gets $1700 in rent.
But the key is that she expects the properties to increase in value over the next five years.
This makes her a speculator.
I think she must have paid cash, or at least put a hefty down payment. Most of the $700 probably goes towards property taxes and HOA dues.
If she really nets $1,00 a month, good for her. THAT’s how real estate is supposed to work, not the “bubble” way when you pay twice as much as for buying than you would have for a rental…
“Can the following be true - can she really be netting $1000/month??? WTH!”
Ditto.
I think Chris has it right–she is most likely subtracting out taxes and HOA (or maybe only HOA), and calling the rest of the rents “net profit”.
Although at the prices she paid, the investment wouldn’t be a horrible one in a normal economic environment: 120 X rents (I know it should really be gross rents) would come $120K, and she paid $141K, so she only over-paid by about $20K or so.
Of course, these are not normal times (so the 120X multiple is too high, and 100X would be safer), what with widespread and mounting unemployment combined with massive overbuilding. And I also think it does make sense to net out HOA in this climate, since it may be extremely dangerous in sparsely-settled buildings—it doesn’t make any sense to ignore it or assume historical averages.
My take is that she will be paying some hefty tuition on this one.
But I’m sure it looks like a nice, safe 8.5% return to her right now—and will, right up until one of her tenants moves and she can’t re-rent it quickly, the other negotiates a reduced rent, and her returns ends up looking more like 4%, and she realizes can’t sell for near her original investment.
I’ve been there and done that with FL condo rental property.
The condo fees anywhere in FL are usually a minimum of $300 a month, and most of that covers property insurance. The buyer will be shocked when she sees here property tax bills in November, since they are rental properties with no homestead exemption. The property taxes for the rental unit with a value of only 50K are at least $100 a month or $1200 a year. The other condo has property taxes that average $200 a month or $2400 a year.
So if she paid cash, she’s probably netting around $800 a month, or $9600. What nobody has factored in is the special assessments that are going to be levied to make up for unit owners who are not paying their dues. Those will cost around $3500 per unit per year.
When all is said and done, this landlord will be grateful when she sells at a loss.
It’s almost impossible to make a rental property in my area of FL “pencil out”. There are lots of properties on the market that you can rent for HOA+Taxes+Insurance. That means that unless you can get the property for free, you can’t even consider renting it out cash flow positive. On top of that, a landlord in FL has no SOH (Save our Homes) protection, so, in the event that there is another boom in house prices, the taxes on the rental will go through the roof!
Buying (to rent) most property in FL is a real fools game. You can make it work for some multi-family properties (think, low end), but.. Buying condos and renting them? LOL, that’s a sure way to lose a bundle!
“Poulos said he’s come to see tax challenges as a nearly hopeless battle.”
Uh, dude, you won’t have a “tax challenge” once you totally commit to Florida. The homestead exemption, dude, the hhoooommmesteeead exemption.
No doubt this knocker still has his NYS Driver’s License and (917) celly as well. That’s the first thing the tax appraiser should ask to see (driver’s license). NY’ers love to keep those for some reason.
In every county in FL, you need to produce a FL driver’s license and auto registration (if you have an auto) in order to get the homestead exemption.
You also have to provide your previous address. That is always checked by the assessor to verify that you have either sold or rented the property out, or that you were a renter that has vacated the rental unit. If you haven’t you will be disqualified for the homestead exemption.
If I’m an American needing to unload overvalued properties, I’m praising God for giving me the Stacey Lynns of the world. I’m also buying advertising in the Canadian media, like right now.
Am I the only one who thinks that a $50,000 one-bedroom condo in Naples sounds like an aging converted apartment complex in a high-crime neighborhood?
Hmmm, aging converted apartment complexes gone condo while still being located in sketchy neighborhoods. We have more than a few of those here in Tucson.
And, here at the Arizona Slim Ranch, I just received a postcard promo for such a complex. The condos are being sold at auction.
I have seen way too many of these around my neck of the woods. The projects look nice, the price looks right…till you get knowledge of its surroundings.
This even applies to way too many 4000 square foot plus homes that are at the very least 2X bigger than the surrounding homes.
“‘You could hear the floors creaking under all the weight,’ says an employee of Ruvin’s, a female clerk who asked not to be named. ‘It’s going to blow,’ says an older female clerk, who, like her colleague, requested anonymity. ‘You go in there? Do a Hail Mary first.”
The entire state of Florida along with the rest of the US bubble states have become — “Nightmare Country”.
‘I hope the bidder understands the market and the condition of the land, which was a former garbage dump.’
Nice metaphor. Luxury condos on a foundation of garbage.
How can they build on dumps? There is a proposal to do exatcly that here in Pinellas.
Dont they have to remove the trash to make sure the land doesn’t shift. I always thought landfills/dumbs were somewhat unstable as the trash shifts and decays.
dumbs = dumps, although building on dumps is dumb
Parts of the University of Washington athletic department are built on a former landfill. There are lots of vent pipes sticking out of the ground to vent gases resulting from the slow decay of millions of tons of buried garbage. The stench can be revolting and overpowering, especially on a hot day. I understand that this decay process will be ongoing for decades, perhaps centuries.
Nope.
Nobody cares if the house is there in 10 years… but real estate only goes up, and Megabank will still value the ruins at their 2005 price!
WE have a tech school built on a landfill.
Tech school, one maybe two stories with a large footprint will see some cracked walls over time. A high rise built on a landfill could actually start to tilt due to uneven settlement. We won’t need to visit Pisa anymore.
““‘Everything that happens at Biscayne Landing matters to us. It’s horrifying, the uncertainty about what might happen around your home,’ said Sylvia Londono who spent $400,000 on her two-bedroom condo in The Oaks.””
Well, here’s a little certainty to calm your nerves, Sylvia: you’re the proud owner of a crappy condo built on a dump, probably full of methane gas, that’s worth MAYBE a third of what you paid for it. Compared to that, your potential new neighbors (probably Section 8 crackheads) are the least of your worries.
At least methane gas can be burned and the resulting combustion is used to generate power. Our local electric utility is doing just that.
Hey, AzSlim-
I was gonna post almost word for word about our local landfill in Coeur d’Alene…Fighting Creek (Blighting Stink) using methane to power 2400 houses.
“Even if the city allowed concessions, Michael Cannon, a real estate analyst, said a potential developer has to consider the environmental factors tied to the site. ‘I hope the bidder understands the market and the condition of the land, which was a former garbage dump.’ Cannon said.”
Cannon needs to follow this blog for super duper marketing tips.
“Free power at these condos…courtesy of rotting David Learah books”
If we could harness all the BS and excess methane gas floating around Wall Street and DC today, we could power America on clean energy into the next century.
The Biscayne Landing project was built on one of the 26 toxic supersites in the United States.
The two existing condo buildings that were completed (out of an announced 25 two hundred unit towers) both have methane gas meters in the buildings near the elevators to determine how severe the emission from the landfill is.
Boca Developers, the now bankrupt firm that built the condos, also built condo towers in Riviera Beach in an area people are afraid of after dark. Known as the condiment towers due to their mustard and ketchup colored exteriors, broken bottles, syringes, and gunfire are still prevalent around the buildings. During the delusional heyday of the market, they were pre-selling these “gems” for $300-750K during the boom. The only well located project they did construct, the Peninsula in Aventura, was contaminated (discovered after closings) and filled with Chinese drywall.
Regarding the Biscayne landing project, the N. Miami CRA signed a deal with Boca Developers agreeing to a 200 year land lease, and also the builder agreed to construct one affordable housing unit in N. Miami for each new condo built.
The Palm Beach Post. “The unfinished Trump International Hotel & Tower on Fort Lauderdale beach is facing foreclosure, after developers defaulted on a $139 million loan on the long-awaited condo-hotel project.
Has ANY Trump Tower ANYWHERE been completed and/or shown a profit or even not ended in foreclosure except for the original one in NYC?
To me it is like seeing an ad with Madonna staring in a movie - a big warning to stay away.
+1. I have no idea why Trump is popularly perceived as an authority on real estate matters, because he’s failed at least as often as he’s succeeded. Nor do I have any idea why he remains in demand as a celebrity spokesperson, although now he’s stooped to appearing in an ad for “Double Stuff Oreos.”
Trump is a marketing machine. He has become his own product. Power begats power, celebrity begats celebrity.
People seek him out because he has flair. He has flair because people seek him out. TV shows need him to make appearances, he needs TV shows to need him to make appearances.
It’s all mutual symboisis. The media needs Donald Trump, needs Paris Hilton, needs all these celebs for ratings. In return the celebs get a power boost, their own personal ratings go up.
The worst thing that could ever happen to these people is for them to be ignored.
People seek him out because he has
flhair.I have never known a new homeowner who hasn’t hired plumbers, electricians, landscapers and others to help make a house a home.’”
From 1900-2001, the person who bought the home did all this work as they were pretty much out of cash after the expense of buying the home (except for some exceptions like tear downs). Only in the bubble years did people buy a home and then put in $100,000 worth of upgrades (like the ever popular koi ponds).
Or to put another way. The “rule” was the avocado tile in the bathroom and the orange shag rug in the living room was going to stay in the house you just bought at least for a few years until you could afford (pay cash) to replace it…
Thank you for this post. One of the big differences I noticed with this bubble was that buyers expected a house to be decorated just so when they bought it. In the past, you bought a house, then repaired and painted walls, replaced carpet, etc.
In fact, up until 10 years ago, the standard statement from any home seller I met was “why should I paint the place. The new owners will simply repaint it as soon as they move in.”
Myself, I never re-carpeted. My last house had that really outstanding sculptured pea-green carpet, probably from the 1970s. One night I started choking on a piece of meat during dinner and I recall looking at the floor and thinking I didn’t want to die on that carpet. The ex gave me a Heimlich and saved my arse from dying in a sea of pea-green.
This Florida post is bleaker than bleak. But how’d you like to be one of the St. Petersburg residents with a house on top of a Raytheon toxic waste plume? They say it’ll take 70 years to clean it up. And this was built before the bubble. Talk about people trapped in their homes.
Land re-use is fun! I live a few blocks away from the LAX Nike missile launch site, now being used as an animal boarding facility called Jet Pets =)
Muggy
This one is for you. A Short Sale Processor Co website (for the seller and their UHS). Banks are targeting a 95% sale price of the CMA. (Current Marketing Analysis-current sold comps) http://completeshortsaleprocessors.com/
Great links Ben!
Seems like more and more people are coming around to the idea that flushing the system, besides being necessary, will also be a good thing.
Even if new buyers don’t pump thousands of dollars into improvements, they probably won’t abandon the place — reight away at least.
Hey Slimmy-
Did you make it to the Tuk-Son Book festival over the weekend? I watched some of it on C-span, was looking for you. I think it was put on in conjunction with that radio station with which you frequently associate.That city has more than a couple of “readers” — who knew?
I was at the book festival on Sunday.
And, as for the KXCI Community Radio link, the panel moderator is our own Amanda, who does our news and public affairs programming. The video of her moderating was up on the C-SPAN website a few hours after the actual event.
Since the pledge phones were a little sleepy this past Saturday, Amanda and I took a break and watched her on the video. We got a big laugh out of it. (KXCI is that kind of place. People do their professional best on the radio or at a public forum. Then we watch videos of the event and laugh at ourselves.)
“Janne Keskinen, a Finnish real estate investor who owns a home in Lake Worth and is leading Blue Key on behalf of a group of European investors, said The Vue is a good buy. ‘It’s a good tower, it’s new, the location is good in the downtown,’ he told me. ‘We are pretty close to the bottom [of the market], but not yet. It’s going to be a long-term investment, anyway.’”
Yep, it’s a good buy, if you consider being in the third most violent city in the country (that’s right, Orlando) gangland central a good buy. But what the heck, he’ll be marketing to Europeans and they won’t be told that little tidbit of information. They’ll just be told “Disney, Disney, Disney!” Nor will they be told that the air is so thick and humid in the summer you’ll drown just by going outside and breathing.
I have to laugh, though. Looks like they’re re-spiking the punch bowl for foreign buyers in Orlando. As if the first go-round wasn’t enough.
BTW, interesting story on the local Fox News station last night about Florida’s (future debacle) high speed rail and people with property along the planned route. They’re in limbo right now. Florida’s not going to be doing the eminent domain thing for another year, at least.
You couldn’t pay me to live in Orlando.. Or, alternatively, you’d have to pay me really, really well. 300K/yr and a free 5K Sq/FT house (with super AC) and I might consider it. But only because I wouldn’t have to be there most of year (because I could afford to vacation all year long).
I just got back from Disney. Every time I go there I realize how much I hate Orlando. Traffic is horrible. Weather sucks (although, it was good this trip, but that’s just lucky) and I HATE how commercial and “family friendly” Orlando is.
No thanks.. You can keep that part of the state.. The bible belt south.. It’s even worse than the NE for the bible thumping..
I hear ya, Michael. I spent a few months in the Orlando area just after the peak of the bubble (Sanford) and the traffic was horrendous and in general (with exceptions like Chip) the people all phoney-nice on the surface, vicious underneath. Must be the weather makes ‘em so mean. I came screaming back to this area, shuddering in horror all the way.
I recall driving Rte 50 through Clermont. It was like sitting in a stationary vehicle on the road while a continuous film loop of the same strip mall with the same stores and restaurants played past the car, over and over.
And Clermont formerly was quite pastoral. I’ve heard that Brandon used to be the same way, back in the 1970s.
The continuous film loop is the perfect figure of speech for Florida suburban sprawl. I wrote a couple of years ago about driving at night in the Oldsmar area. Intending to return to Tampa, I started driving in the wrong direction, but it was several miles before either my wife or I realized it, because all the intersections, strip malls and chain restaurants looked the same. You know it’s bad when you need a GPS in your own town.
One thing, for me, defines Orlando: the electrical transmission tower, visible from I-4, that’s shaped like Mickey Mouse ears.
From Clermont west on 50 to Orlando is like that over and over and over and over. Wachovia, SunTrust, Home Depot, Target, WalMart, Lowe’s, Outback Steak House, McDonald’s, Taco Bell, Publix, Winn Dixie, Chevron, Shell, BP, Pizza Hut, Subway, Fantastic Sam’s, Big Lots, blah, blah, blah and I do mean blahhhhhhhhhhhh.
…and over and over and over again.
And really, this sort of development is soul-killing. Seriously. Everyone in their little cubicle houses or villas or apartments or townhouses, on sterile roads, with ugly strip malls. No wonder people go nuts.
The soul-killing thing is real. Atlantic Monthly had an article back in 1999 about toxic development in the US, where zoning after WW2 accomodated the auto industry. Yessir, it’s all about the parking setback! Very few towns left where you can walk around and enjoy the architecture and funky shops and interesting houses.
It’s all…wait for it…BLAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Are there any GOOD places in Florida to live (seasonally of course), for the uninitiated snowbirds like myself?
Maybe you could steer some Canadians from rotten areas like Orlando. I had no idea that was the third worst city for violent crime?
Yikes.
Not that I need it this week though, low 60s and sunny all March Break week here…
“Are there any GOOD places in Florida to live (seasonally of course), for the uninitiated snowbirds like myself?”
Sure, I’ve basically been all over the state… I’d say parts of
the Tampa Bay Region are nice. Canucks love Pass-A-Grille, and I love it, too. If I had a blank check I would buy there.
There are parts of Sarasota and even Manatee County that are nice, Longboat Key, Anna Maria Island, etc. Only problem is the red tide that hits occasionally, where beachgoers just about hack up a lung.
There’s parts of Venice that are OK, Osprey, etc. North of Tampa, there’s a charming fishing village called Aripeka. Parts of Dade City and Zephyhills are nice, but they’re inland. Brooksville’s nice. On the other coast, Jupiter isn’t half bad. Parts of Ormond Beach are OK.
Up on the Northern Gulf Coast, there are all sorts of decent little nooks and crannies.
It all depends on what you’re looking for.
Vero Beach is nice. I was born and raised, one of few natives left.
Muggy - what’s Pass-A-Grille? I can’t figure it out.
Southern tip of St. Pete Beach
Yes, Weezy, Vero’s definitely nice. Florida has plenty of great places left, actually. I just recommend staying away from the Orlando area. Something is really weird about it. And generally I recommend staying away from areas full of cookie cutter developments.
Some really bad places, IMO, are Northport, Ft. Myers, Cape Coral, Lehigh Acres, Spring Hill, Celebration, Reunion, etc.
Feel free to add to this, fellow Floridians.
While both are pricey, I like both Anna Maria Island and Sanibel, simply because neither have been taken over by the usual detritus of t-shirt shops, fast food restaurants, Soviet condo buildings, and the generally forgettable crappy architecture of our time. On the Atlantic coast, Cocoa Beach was nice, but I haven’t been there in over a decade, so I don’t know if the bubble changed it.
Inland, Arcadia used to have a good reputation — it called itself the best small town in Florida — but again, I haven’t been down there in awhile. In the Keys I’m partial to Marathon.
Avoid Fort Myers, Tampa exurbs in Pasco County, and Naples. I’ve always liked Bradenton, but the bubble turned both it and Brooksville into economic disaster zones. I think Sarasota has been totally trashed by indiscriminate overbuilding.
I remember Pass-A-Grille on one of my drives around St. Pete Beach many moons ago…it looked like a cool place
And I believe Zephyrhills has the bottled water source if I recall…in my part of Canada, Nestle has a bottled water plant in nearby Guelph…
Anyways that’s some good feedback on Florida for those like me who want to steer friends clear of the crime and cookie-cutter crap.
Thank you all for reminding me why I left O’ville (Orlando) back in 1998. I was getting nostalgic for the place until I read today’s blog.
There are wonderful areas of FL to live.. As others have said above, it all depends what you’re looking for. Even Miami (which is universally despised by most bloggers on here) is a great place to live if you like what it has to offer (nightlife, cultural diversity, etc).
If you’re looking to retire in the near future, I would look at the Vero/Sebastian area and north. There are good areas all along the coast, the pace of life is reasonable, and the people are generally nice (and mostly from the NE, if you like that culture). If you’re looking for a more “city” area, I’d suggest the west coast cities that were pointed out above (Sarasota is nice, Naples, Marco, etc). I’d stay away from Tampa and Orlando, both of those cities hold nothing (IMHO) that make them worth dealing with/paying for city life. If you want a “big city” Miami and Ft Lauderdale would be my first choices. They are “real” cities, and have all the amentieis that you would expect if you’re used to a NYC or other large city atmosphere. They also have character (unlike the soul killing Orlando) and great weather (unlike Orlando)..
IMHO, the worst cities in FL are Orlando and Tampa. They have all the problems of a big city without (IMHO) any of the advantages of a big city. They don’t have great climates (especially Orlando, their climate, IMHO, sucks), which is what most people come to FL for. The best cities (again, IMHO) are Ft Lauderdale and Miami (for big cities) followed by Sarasota/Naples (mid size).
Stay out of the center of the state and you’ll be much happier. Even S. FL has some god-for-saken areas way off the coast (Weston; Belle Glade, etc).. Once you’re 20-30 miles off the ocean things change rapidly in FL..
+1 on Sanibel, we have gone for the past three years each spring since we started a family, and we love it. It’s all low rise along the shore, and not built up with chain stores and towers. Gorgeous beaches. We looked at prices to buy last week for fun while we were booking a rental condo and wow - they still cost a mint even after the bubble. Captiva Island right next door is spectacular, but I get the distinct impression it’s for rich folks.
I live in the humblest of homes on Sanibel & absolutely love it, even now during high season.
Captiva is pretentious.
BTW sold my house up north for top dollar a few years back, in part because of this forum. Now, I am just sitting out the bad times, on the beach.
THX to everyone here, you helped me out so much!
“the condition of the land, which was a former garbage dump.”
This must be a symptom of the bubble. They did this in New Iberia Louisanna in the 70s (Oil patch mania). Locals called it “Snob Hill”. It was the only elevated ground in the town, because it was the old dump.
The usual name for a dump site is Mt. Trashmore. The one in Sarasota County, east of I-75 on Bee Ridge Road, is the highest elevation in the county.
Yes, but one that you can actually build “luxurey” houses on, that is something special.
The Lennar development south of Miami called “Lakes By the Bay” has a wonderful view of Dade County’s Mt. Trashmore, which is truly an awesome sight. I just wonder how many residents have been crapped on by the gulls on their way to and from the dump.
“Mt. Trashmore”…Good one Palmy..
Wish I could take creddick for it, dave, but as Bill in Carolina mentioned above, it’s sort of a generic name for a dump site, at least here in Florryduh. There are probably Mt. Trashmores all over the country. But the one in South Dade County, Florida is quite a sight to behold. It truly is a mountain. Or a large hill, anyway. Bill’s right, they tower over the surrounding areas. Which is not hard to do in some parts of Florida.
Blue Skye, are you from Louisiana?? I spent some time just down the road in Lafayette, and some before that in Big Mamou.
I plant engineered a chemical plant down there years ago. I loved the place and the people. I’m only an “honorary coonass”, NY bred. They were amazed that I could catch the crawfish with my hands. LOL.
Whaddya think, folks, Crist or Rubio? Talk about the lesser of two evils, I don’t even know which one that would be. Really, when you think about it the silver fox hasn’t done all that bad of a job as governor, in fact, I’d rather he stayed governor. It could be a whole lot worse here in Florida, it really could.
+1
Palmy,
I’d vote for Crist again if he had shown the SLIGHTEST understanding of the tax issue in this state. Portability took a bad problem (out of control government spending) and squared it.
Anyone stupid enough to put something like that into law can never, ever, be voted for again.
Late in the day, but I thought I’d post an update every time a FL thread pops up. We have a signed contract on a short-sale in Mid-Pinellas. It’s off to the bank. My wife understands that this may not work out, so we’re prepared for the offer to expire if that’s the case. I basically said, “let’s lowball, and see what happens…”
Now the waiting game begins.
Muggy,
Check out this website owned by a Short Sale firm that works with the listing agent and the bank. It might explain why it may not close. Personally, I am no fan of Short Sales (Licensed in Ca.) BTW, the new Short Sale laws are effective April 5th or 7th.
http://completeshortsaleprocessors.com/
Having worked in the Shopping Ctr game, and having to get a residential education quickly and fierce, the cards are stacked against us buyers, imho.
If this doesn’t work out, and you can use Redfin in Fl, they will rebate you some of the commission $. I love their business model. Most of us buyers do a lot of the work, so why not get paid too. The rebate is non-taxable.
Wipeout, I hope you see this… what are the new short sale laws?
Muggy,
I hope you see this reply.
By memory, I’ll link you to the best info I found. I can’t seem to find my list right now.
Program Will Pay Homeowners to Sell at a Loss
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/08/business/08short.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1268327101-guM4EBG4GM/tmjrXYfdYQw
New rules designed to speed up short sales
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-short-sale-guidelines-20100112,0,2146738.story
NAR page about HAFA
http://www.realtor.org/government_affairs/short_sales_hafa
more stuff from NAR
http://www.realtor.org/wps/wcm/connect/f15fe5804fbf0408a598a76bc7937a4b/government_affairs_short_sales_120909.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=f15fe5804fbf0408a598a76bc7937a4b
There is more on the net, just search. I hope I helped.
http://www.weknowurban.com/blog/2009/11/why-short-sales-are-such-a-pain-in-the-neck/
I took a cursory glance at this article, and it looked pretty indepth.
It feels like I came back home. Michael Fink, Muggy, Palmetto, it’s good to see you guys still posting. I was an addicted lurker before the crash, and then after the stock market crashed in 2008, I got tied up with other things. But guess what? Ben and you guys were right, and I mean really right. And then it took the stock market with it. And now the stock market went up about 65 percent in the last year. And people are abandoning their houses like there’s no tomorrow. But still, the market keeps going up. I wonder how long that is going to last. I wonder…….Ben: congratulations for seeing this a mile away. Too bad you didn’t write a book about it! l
“What’s more, appraisals of collateralized properties, ordered by federal regulators, are gutting asset values and inflicting heavy losses on banks’ bottom lines. ‘When you look at the nonperforming asset numbers, they may be down only slightly,’ Bauer’s Dorway said. ‘But if you look more closely at their books, the banks have had enormous charge-offs.’”
“Former Pensacola banker Eric Nickelsen, now a board member of New Orleans-based Whitney Bank, agrees with Dorway. ‘The federal government is coming in and telling banks, for example, to write down a $3 million piece of property to $2 million, a $1 million charge-off,’ he said. ‘They do that even though the loan is a performing loan.’”
Is that being done everywhere? If so, wouldn’t a lot more banks be insolvent?
7,500 South Floridians receive mortgage breaks through Obama program
by Kim Miller
The Obama administration’s Making Home Affordable foreclosure rescue program has provided permanent loan modifications for 7,532 people in Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade counties, according to a Treasury Department report released last week.
Statewide, 21,111 borrowers in financial distress received reductions in their monthly mortgage payment through the $75 billion program. Another 102,033 are on trial modifications waiting to hear if they will receive a permanent price break.
The reductions, made by lenders, are completed mostly by lowering a borrower’s interest rate. About 40 percent of the loans were extended, probably to 40 years, while 28 percent were given principal forbearance. This usually means cutting the principal amount owed, but tacking it onto the back of the loan.
Buyer makes $200,000 profit in 20 minutes by flipping 19 Miami condos
By Elaine Walker
The Miami Herald
Posted: 1:31 p.m. Tuesday, March 16, 2010
It could be one of the quickest profits made in Miami’s condo market.
All it took was 20 minutes for a bulk buyer to make $200,000 by purchasing 19 units in the new Mi Primera Ilusion Villas Miami condominium and then immediately selling the same condos to another investor, according to a report from CondoVultures.com
The Fama Group, with principal Nancy Marquez, purchased 19 units in the 30-unit condominium on Southwest 18th Avenue in Miami for $1.25 million, or $102 per square foot, according to Florida Secretary of State records. The deal was completed at 1:25 p.m., Friday, March 5.
Exactly 20 minutes later, at 1:45 p.m., Marquez’s group sold the units for $1.45 million, or $118 per square foot, to another Miami-based entity, Rentdepo LLC with principals Alain Bonvecchio and Karen Stanford Bonvecchio, according to government records.
“Call this condo arbitrage, Miami style,’ said Peter Zalewski, a principal with the Bal Harbour, Fla.-based real estate consultancy Condo Vultures LLC.
Zalewski says Fama Group earned a 16 percent cash-on-cash return, minus fees.
“This is another example of well-connected condominium bulk buyers purchasing new product at deep discounts and then immediately retrading the units for a spread,’ he said.
Even the second owner purchased the condos at a 60 percent discount compared to the $293 average closed sales price in the project, according to Zalewski’s report based on Miami-Dade County records.
Muggy -
Good documentation for new short sale guidelines:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23500034/New-Guidelines-for-Short-Sales-HAMP-Supplemental-Directive-09-09
The problem for all real estate is that the city is obsolete and there is no more “there…there”.
The Internet means people can live anywhere.
So why not live in the cheapest place?
You’d have to be insane to by even a $250,000 condo which is the size of an apartment when you can find big houses for under $200,000 in small towns and exurbs all over America.
There’s not much chatter about life-size solutions for those well-meaning folks, like me, who had excellent credit, good jobs but needed to sell and move away to make a better living and provide for children, yet wound up continuing to pay for a house that couldn’t sell, tried averting disaster and ruined credit by seeking and applying and waiting for a loan modification, only for nothing to ever work out. No “Obama” bailout money ever reached me and my mortgage company drove me nearly insane with it’s endless and repeating list of documents. I got a loan in 4 days to buy the house, but no resolve after 13 months for a modest modification??? Now my house has been magically sold short for less than 1/2 of what I owe and I’ll probably get sued for the difference, whether I’m forced into bankruptcy or not. Makes me sick how many folks are enjoying snapping up deals and finding it fun and exciting. Single Mom, spotless career/work history, once perfect credit score, 2 kids, homeless.
Elephant in the Living Room.
There’s not much chatter about life-size solutions for those well-meaning folks, like me, who had excellent credit, a good job yet trying to avert disaster and ruined credit after their home could not sell in this market. I applied and got strung along for over 14 months with the hope of a permanent loan modification, only for nothing to ever work out. No “Obama” bailout money ever reached me and my mortgage company drove me nearly insane with it’s endless and repeating list of documents. I got a loan in 4 days to buy the house, but no resolve after 14 months for a modest modification??? I was so desperate that I had to use my credit card to hire an attorney to become my negotiator in an attempt to get attention and resolve only for my house to quickly get scooped up for a sacrifice price. And since there’s no guarantee, I’ll probably get sued for the difference, whether I’m forced into bankruptcy or not. Makes me sick how many folks are enjoying snapping up deals and finding it fun and exciting. Single Mom, spotless career/work history, once perfect credit score, 2 kids, homeless. Oh, and now that I can’t pursue my plan to move away, I can’t even afford to live in my own town because the investors have driven the rents through the roof! Nice going.