The Housing Bubble

Eudemon, this all goes back to whether health care is a priviledge or a right, which is the basis for whether it’s right/wrong to pay for someone else’s health care — or, heck, to force someone to pay for their own health care.

I don’t think there will ever be agreement on that point, and so there will never be agreement on this bill. It’s not even worth debating.

Our medical system is something on the order of 100% overpriced compared to the rest of the world’s.

The Congressional Budget Office (liberal commie SOBs… oh wait) estimate a $168 BILLION reduction of the federal deficit with this bill.

You mean the CBO that in 2006 estimated that the 2009 budget deficit would be $232 Billion?

That CBO?

Somehow government projects always seem to undershoot - often by a lot. (See SS and Medicare, for instance).

Not to mention that we’re talking the sum of the bill - including both the health-care portions and the raised-taxes portions. Personally I’ll take the latter, and leave the former. That would be a significant deficit reduction.

Really? How is that possible?

A reduction, eh? Too bad they conveniently left out the $200B+ that resides outside this little health plan to reimburse doctors that lose Medicare reimbursement due to ObamaCare

Incidentally, what is the CBO’s track record relative to accurately estimating the cost of social welfare programs?

What was Medicare supposed to cost? What does it cost? When you supply those answers and prove that outfit’s efficacy at estimating costs 20, 40 and 60 years into the future, then we can talk.

“If we can get some kind of coverage which would be reasonably priced”

That’s a big “if.” I’m in the same boat, though by the time this kicks in I’ll be one year away from Medicare. Will people really want to pay out of pocket any kind of reasonable rate? What they want is for someone else to pay *everything* and not have to shell out.

I was willing to go bare or buy catastrophic if I lost my job, but now I will not have that option. This seems more about protecting Baby Boomer assets that health.

No, dear Eudemon, I don’t expect someone else to pay for my health insurance per se. However, you are already paying for the health ins. of anyone that works for a state institution, such as myself, anyone on Medicare or Medicaid, and I’m sure I could think of many more. As usual, you pick out the worst interpretation of whatever someone wrote. I think it would be appropriate for me to retire if I could get affordable health insurance coverage broad enough ( with enough benefits ) to make me happy, ( with the expectation of having to pay $400-$500 per month in premiums ), but I can’t get it due to pre-existing, so guess what, screw it, I’ll just keep working.

Yeah, I do tend to do that. I’ll admit it…but I’m also trying to force thought (mine and whomever else’s).

Speaking for myself only, I’m fully prepared to work until I drop dead - if only to pay for my own healthcare. If I can’t afford it, I’ll have to work until I drop dead. If I’m not happy about it, tough. I don’t have a right to be happy. Pursue it, yes. A right to it? No.

Shafting others to attain or obtain happiness doesn’t make me happy. My gain shouldn’t result in someone else’s loss.

I’m weird that way.

Yeah packman, the CBO aren’t my favorite guys either.

But the GAO is a different story and report after report shows the current system is killing us.

If I could gain healthcare which I can pay for out of my own pocket that’s worth the money ( see indemnity plan definitions ), then I’d retire, and someone else would gain a job. I believe that to be a winning hand for everyone concerned.

What about making it an employee payroll deduction. Take $1 hour out of everyones check if you make $15 hr or less and $1.50 hr over that till $25 and $2 hr over that… how much would that raise….plus you would be paying for it….around $2000-4000 a year

I’ve thought of this as well. Well, the one industry that seemed to have some steam to it will probably take a dive.

Anyhow, it was just another bubble. This will probably take the air out of it. Will prepare as best as possible to deal with the fall out.

I think we’d have to look at our health care costs from the perspective of having all sorts of bubble blowing mechanisms. You have medicare/medicaid programs, public employee union contracts blowing money in there. That and the student loan scheme.

If those were dealt with we might have a better chance at unwinding things.

Obama and his team will just get confused with the monstrosity they passed.

Most substantial things will be creating a stealth tax on the people who were healthy and are forced to buy more expensive coverage than needed. The bill mandates you buy coverage with certain deductible limits. No public option either. That coverage will get pimped into the hands of the health care industry.

The insurance companies must be laughing like brier rabbit getting thrown into the pumpkin patch.

Now that’s a legitimate point one can make. It might very well do that.

Then again, it might not. It would depend, I would think, on the ability of companies to be nimble. If they are too hamstrung to meet current economic conditions, then it’d be a wash at best.

I have no idea whether Obamacare provides the above potential improvement to the U.S. health care system, but it might …

Insofar as it allows citizens with pre-existing conditions to obtain new/different coverage, the bill does provide a significant improvement and should provide mobility to a segment of our population that was “stuck.”

What it doesn’t contain (as far as I know; I gave up trying to track the minutiae of the various bills and amendments months ago) are enough cost-controlling measures and the means to encourage more competition in turgid markets (e.g., the ability of qualified healthcare entities to buy pharmaceutical products at international rates).

I believe the government isn’t anywhere near as greedy as the insurance companies. Not by a long shot.

I believe the government isn’t anywhere near as greedy as the insurance companies. Not by a long shot.

Like the banks - it’s not an either/or thing. The government is a tool.

Eco,

The big problem with the government is the employees. Expensive, unmotivated and careless. The politicians are more in check than the guys in the organizations.

Basically it’s dealing with other peoples money in a system that rewards time of service first and only.

That and the unionist sense of entitlement.

Theoretically it could work just fine. In practice it’s a bunch of unmotivated and undisciplined employees. Many of which are just looking at working the system. Be it through the union or through blackmail and bribery.

Hmm, expensive, unmotivated and careless versus expensive, unmotivated and careless for profit.

Hmm.

Seriously?

The big problem with the government is the employees. Expensive, unmotivated and careless.
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Wow, that’s a pretty big claim. Anything to actually back this up, or are you allowing yourself to be brainwashed by your corporate masters?

Surprisingly, corporate America, at least the ones not in the FIRE sector, where the biggest proponents of health care reform.

There is no doubt about this. I know a guy who is a high ranking HR guy (as in VP) at a Fortune 500 firm. He told me that Corporate America was already planning on replacing their employer provided health insurance with Health Savings Plans, just like they replaced pensions with 401(k)plans. And that at first the corporate contribution would be “generous” (just like 401K match used to be “generous”) but that the long term plan was to eventually eliminate their contribution altogether.

Of course the Employers are going to dump Health care benefits
as time goes on ,especially with the costs going up . If you look at the way it’s going maybe just having a National Health care sales tax and a single payer system would be the cheapest way to go . I guest you would need greater care options that one could purchase also for those that wouldn’t trust the basic care of a National Government Program. If Health care was based on supply and demand Capitalism ,than the prices would go down ,but it’s based on a price fixing Insurance Monopoly /provider monopoly .

Anyway ,I was disappointed to see that the Insurance Companies can still charge what-ever they want ,they just can’t deny you coverage based on pre-existing or cancel you . Charging high rates is a way of denying you if you can’t afford it . But ,I’m not clear by the new bill what options a
person like that would have now .

One more question ,is it really true that you have to purchase Health Insurance now with this Bill ?

From what I can tell, Housing Wiz, yes, they do force you purchase insurance, but the purchase is gov’t subsidized if you’re below some income level. And this mandate doesn’t kick in until 2014 or so.

I agree that employer health is on its way out. If there had been a Public Option open to everyone, all those companies would drop the HC hassle before the ink was dry on the bill. Now it will just happen 5-6 years from now instead of now.

Actually it is very simple to understand.
It’s called the redistribution of wealth:

1. If you are employed and already have health care insurance , look for the cost of it to DOUBLE over the next few years. Then, look for your possible benfits to begin to vanish.

2. If you are unemployed or are an illegal alien, or someone who does intravenous illegal drugs, or has decided to eat your way to 800 pounds, or have seventeen babies out of wedlock, congratulations on your new FREE expanded healthcare.

1. If you are employed and already have health care insurance , look for the cost of it to DOUBLE over the next few years. Then, look for your possible benefits to begin to vanish.

And at that point, if Dems are still in charge, they’ll have the ammo to say “trigger has been pulled, let’s do a public option, or better yet single payer.”

Yes, I would love to have the ability to take another job that would have a more flexible schedule and allow more time to care for an elderly parent, maybe do a little traveling, and perhaps even do volunteer work, etc.

I’d gladly live on a LOT less money and make way for one of the “bright young things”.

Not unwilling to pay for health insurance, but paying nearly DOUBLE for individual coverage, compared to what the COBRA price is on carried over employee coverage, is not feasible.

Funny how conversation on this board today includes comments about what someone WANTS.

So, I take this to mean that all talk about corrupt banks, Wall Street, government entities, greedy FBs and insurance companies will cease immediately?

After all, they screwed others to get what they WANT.

No?

Why am I not surprised?

Well, Eudy, it’s pretty apparent that you have your list of WANTS, too.

Yes…but they don’t include getting someone else to pay for it.

One good thing about the govt taking over student loans is that when someone defaults the banks won’t lose money, the taxpayers will.

Do you know what “government backed” even means? Taxpayers already lose money if somebody defaults; it’s been that way since Stafford was set up.

The “government takeover of the student loan industry” is a teabag talking point. The government was in charge of the student loans, and it was only very recently (Bush II) that the charge of the student loans was “taken over” by the private banks. 8-9 years? Hardly an entrenched institution. I still maintain that if a bank wants to collect fees from servicing a loan, they can back up the loan with their own reserves rather than leaving the risk with the gov (as is the banks’ wont).

Cobalt, you sound unusually glum this morning. Are you old enough to remember or to have been the recipient of a government student loan? I am. It allowed me to go to medical school. It changed my life. I can hardly believe what private loans are going for now, and the terms! Repayment starts the day after you graduate, no excuses. There is no way I ever could have done that. Government loans allowed me to become a high-income, high-tax-paying citizen. Think about it.

I can hardly believe what private loans are going for now, and the terms!

And why is that? Think about it.

Pack, because banks are looking for new sheep to fleece for juicy fees in order to make themselves whole? All the more reason to separate the banks from student loans. Why should college students pay through the nose to refill the empty bank coffers? It wasn’t high-school students doing the flipping and skimming for obscene bonuses.

So you really believe that interest rates are set based solely on the motivation to fleece people, eh? You honestly don’t believe in the principle of risk premiums?

I think what packman is getting at is the distortion in college tuition caused by available credit. Because tuition has outpaced inflation, virtually no students can now work their way through college.

What is amazing to me is that the increase in adjunct professors who make a pittance has not kept a lid on tuition. Where is the money going?

There is also distortion in the labor market. Because so many have paid for college or trade schools out of their own pocket, employers no longer have to train people on the job. So, a degree or certification is now required for most work above minimum wage.

I have been reading recently about the trap that is student loan debt. There are many stories of fees and interest tripling the size of the debt and sky-high interest rates that make paying off the loan virtually impossible. Most students are willing to pay off the debt, but are outraged at the fees and interest rates.

I even read one story where the loan was paid off. Subsequently, someone stole his identity and borrowed 100K in student loan debt. He was stuck, because the law states that he not only had to identify the thief, but the thief would also have to be convicted of the crime before the victim could claim “not mine”.

And student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy and wages, SS, and disability can be garnished. It is a cash cow for the banks. And it fleeces the more ambitious of the poor and middle classes.

The banks have no incentive to work with debtors or even provide a minimum of customer service. Many debtors cannot even get a statement of how much has been paid or how payments have been applied.

The student loan “industry” has been rife with abuse for many years and it really needed to be reformed. I don’t know what issues the bill addresses, but I will be looking into it.

One other thing is that the students who have taken on loans will be paying them off instead of saving for a down payment on a house. And those are the ones that are fortunate enough to find a job.

For every person that uses student loans to get a medical degree, I would bet there are 50 that take student loans to get a degree that will never result in a job that comes close to paying enough to justify the debt, particularly for those students that attend a private or out of state college. Even worse are those students that rack up big debt but never graduate. Can you spell default?

Agreed. I am appalled at the level of debt being accrued for liberal arts degrees. But even engineering or computer science or medicine are no guarantee of prosperity. I am at a loss as to what to tell my kids to study.

Some debtors have been sold on the “college debt is good debt” meme. Some simply have life throw them a curve. Some of them have trade schools go out of business on them before they graduate but after they take on debt. And with no credentials, they can’t get the job they hoped for.

The one thing I am telling my kids is to avoid student debt at all costs.

Nothing like a loaded CDS in your back pocket to give you that false sense of security.

“Hedging using AIG was a predictably successful gamble that the US gov would come in and save the day.”

The real hedge was making sure there were plenty of Goldman Sachs alumni in high level government positions who could shepherd bailouts through to passage.

…the insurance companies become insolvent, that’s what would have happened minus the US gov…

No insurance company has enough reserves to withstand massive failure.

What auto / property insurance Co could pay all claims if everyone had an auto accident, or if all homes they insure burned to the ground?
Even the biggest, most conservative, like State Farm might have the ability to pay off.. maybe 5%?
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In a sense, all mortgages burned to the ground.. and the losses were so large that whoever/whatever was backing them would need govt assistance to survive it. But not even the govt could save them all.

The real hedge was making sure there were plenty of Goldman Sachs alumni in high level government positions who could shepherd bailouts through to passage.”

so jaded were has the trust gone ?

In a sense, all mortgages burned to the ground.. and the losses were so large that whoever/whatever was backing them would need govt assistance to survive it. But not even the govt could save them all.
—————-

Then you’ll agree that the insurance companies (CDS issuers) didn’t hedge their risks/underwrite appropriately?

IMHO, there should be no hedges. The “hedges” should be built into the price of what you’re trying to hedge against. IOW, if investors perceived too much risk in the mortgages/securities, then they should have commanded a higher rate for their money, no?

One could easily make the argument that insurance is what caused the credit crisis, as everyone thought they were “hedged.”

Just so we’re clear, from AIG’s point of view, Credit Default Swaps did not reduce AIG’s risk. They increased it.

CDS is an insurance policy that the insurer (AIG) becomes liable for. If the insured batch of mortgage bonds falls in value, whoever bought the insurance gets paid by AIG.

By making a market in CDS, companies like AIG were gambling that home prices would continue to rise, home buyers would pay the mortgage bill on time, and all would be well..
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As for a normal insurance company’s reserves, they estimate necessary reserves according to recent events and statistics.

For instance, if an auto-insurer suffered 10,000 accidents last year, and they had to pay out $10,000,000, reserves of $10M will probably be a safe amount this year too. (They’ll invest the rest of their money.)

But if there are more accidents this year, the company could fall short, and will increase it’s “cash” reserves as soon as possible. It doesn’t like to sell off it’s assets to satisfy claims. They may raise rates. Lack of sufficient reserves and assets might force them out of business.

However, while 10,000 accidents seems like a lot, that insurance company may insure millions of vehicles. There is no way it can have reserves to cover all those policies. There is no way the whole, entire company can be worth that much money.
——

You may pay a measly $1,000 a year for $500,000 in coverage. Do you think the insurance company keeps $500,000 in the bank to cover the cost of insuring you? Where would they get the money? Reserves cover a tiny portion of an insurance company’s total risk in the normal course of events.

And to add to your description, joeyinCalif, no insurer would be allowed to carry that much in reserve (at least not in Texas). The insurance company would be deemed too profitable and be forced to drop rates/pay dividends, etc.

MrsWheezer, I hadn’t thought of that.. Deemed too profitable? By whom? By us of course. We demand their profits be regulated.

So, on the one hand we want banks, insurance companies and related businesses to be able to cover their own losses, whatever disaster may strike.
On the other hand we don’t want them to make or have “too much” money.
Unfortunately for us and them, disasters have a mind of their own and don’t follow regulatory guidelines.

“So, on the one hand we want banks, insurance companies and related businesses to be able to cover their own losses, whatever disaster may strike.”

Not me. When self-inflicted disasters strike banks, I want them to die, just like an individual does when he shoots a bullet through his own head. It is rather unjust to bleed everyone else to keep suicidal banks alive.

A person may not see how a bank’s financial health and their own are connected.. especially if they have no money deposited in that bank.. and that’s understandable. But would you cheer for your insurance company to go broke while paying off claims, and having no money left can’t pay you what they owe you?

Insurance companies are not that different from banks. Insurance companies can and do off load risk to reinsurance companies… they make use of arbitrage.. wouldn’t surprise me if they commonly used all sorts of financial and investment gimmicks in order to stay on the right side of the law while maximizing profits..

Only the MEDICAID added participant cost; no relief for the Medicare portion.

As a matter of fact, yes, most are attention related. (although I agree our road system is subpar compared to some other industrialized countries)

Another fun fact: most small plane accidents are caused by the same lack of attention.

A few years ago, a young man was busy fiddling with his car’s radio dial. So busy, in fact, that he didn’t see the lady who was out jogging with her baby in a sport stroller.

He hit them both.

Killed the mother and seriously injured the baby. And he drove on.

There was quite a local dragnet underway, then, finally, a few days later, he associated his front end damage with the death of the woman and the serious injury to the baby. He turned himself in, was prosecuted, and, IIRC, got three years up in the Florence pen.

I can’t believe you asked that. Plenty of examples. I think many accidents invole spotaneous attention breaches or mistakes on both parties.

You get a person not watching the road carefully enough OR poor roadway design causing drivers to have to focus on too many inputs.

Second person often has something like obscured vision like a truck or parked vehicle is blocking their view.

Then boom. Radio. Adjusting mirror. Putting on seatbelt. Kids hit you with the peanut butter toast. Billy hit Janie.

Pharmacists also have this type of offer. CVS, for example, will pay off your $200K-$300K in student loans if you work for them for roughly 10 years. Also they will pay you lotso money, but then, the responsibility is there in the job too to not make an error that will take a human life, and they work you like a dog, so it’s an equitable arrangement for all.

“If he has any wealth he hides it pretty well.”

Lol, then he’s doing better than many of his compadres. When I wuz a pup in South Florida, it was a joke how easily doctors could be hosed into parting from their money in cockamamie investment schemes. Back in the day, half the nightclubs in South Florida were financed by doctors looking to do something with their money.

My next door neighbor is a second generation GP and he says the insurance companies are brutal. If he has any wealth he hides it pretty well.

The SV in your handle is for Silicon Valley, innit? In a locale like that, a GP barely makes enough to stay afloat — especially if succumbed to irrational exuberance.

Google “FDA corruption letter”

Big pharma is about to get squared away.

I looked into medical billing at one time and the differences in filing requirements/procedures among all the insurance companies was worse than anything the old commies could have devised.

B-b-b-b-b-but … the private sector does everything better!

If you found a flaw, it must be a dirty communiss’ plot. There is no other explanation.

Yes, after 21 years of trying to extract ( extort, perhaps) payments from the bas-ards, “byzantine” is the correct acjective….

Ah, I would love to see lawyers removed from the practice of medicine. Or just about anything. The evolution of our litigious society is far too great a matter for me to address or correct, though. Too bad.

As for employers not having to think about health insurance: yes yes YES! Now you’re talking! Portable, single-payer health care for everyone regardless of who they work for. It’s my Utopian dream.

And just what is a “typical liberal” anyway? I’ve already said I’m a moderate. Progressive, even. “Liberal” means different things to different people. One thing I am decisively NOT is a knee-jerk anything.

A progressive IS a liberal. Anyone who opts to limit individual rights in favor of the government is a liberal.

The “liberal” definition of 100 years ago died in 1913.

By the way, I’m not for a “single payer system”. Not hardly. That’s a liberal, Big Government construct that limits free choice and capitalism. I’m VERY much against single payer systems.

I’m also very pro states-rights, as anecdotally, they understand what the local populations need better than Washington. Whatever that means nowadays, who knows.

It’s litigious because many people don’t want to pay for things, like, oh, cutting off the wrong leg or paying their vendors or contractors for work performed among thousands of other daily theft and damage.

That’s why.

Eco, those are good examples. You know what I mean, though. Stuff like the burglar trying to rob your house who sues because he tripped and fell on your porch. Or Lindsey Lohan suing e*trade over a milkaholic baby character named Lindsey in their ads.

BTW, did you know the Chicago Public School system has over 40 full-time attorneys on its staff? The fact that a school system has/thinks it needs that many legal eagles is what I’m talking about.

I’m with you on that Eleanor. There are, indeed many examples of frivolous and stupid legal wranglings.

But they get as far as they do not because of lawyers, but because of judges who think the cases have merit and have the last say on whether to proceed or dismiss as without merit.

my other post may be coming…

The earliest form of HMOs can be seen in a number of prepaid health plans. In 1910, the Western Clinic in Tacoma, Washington offered lumber mill owners and their employees certain medical services from its providers for a premium of $0.50 per member per month. This is considered by some to be the first example of an HMO.

However, Ross-Loos Medical Group, established in 1929, is considered to be the first HMO in the United States; it was headquartered in Los Angeles and initially provided services for Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (DWP) and Los Angeles County employees. Approximately 500 DWP employees enrolled at a cost of $1.50 each per month. Within a year, the Los Angeles Fire Department signed up, then the Los Angeles Police Department, then the Southern California Telephone Company, (now at&t) and more. By 1951, enrollment stood at 35,000 and included teachers, county and city employees.

In 1982 through the merger of the Insurance Company of North America (INA) founded in 1792 and Connecticut General (CG) founded in 1865 came together to become CIGNA. Ross-Loos Medical Group, became now known as CIGNA HealthCare. Also in 1929 Dr. Michael Shadid created a health plan in Elk City, Oklahoma in which farmers bought shares for $50 to raise the money to build a hospital. The medical community did not like this arrangement and threatened to suspend Shadid’s licence. The Farmer’s Union took control of the hospital and the health plan in 1934. Also in 1929, Baylor Hospital provided approximately 1,500 teachers with prepaid care. This was the origin of Blue Cross. Around 1939, state medical societies created Blue Shield plans to cover physician services, as Blue Cross covered only hospital services.

These prepaid plans burgeoned during the Great Depression as a method for providers to ensure constant and steady revenue.

Wikipedia

Where will they go?

Excellent work, Slim!

I’ve shopped around in advance for doctors (I get very infrequent migraines, but when I get ‘em, they’re rough) and cut 60% off my emergency room bills.

A shame others don’t shop around and force the market to respond.

If everyone who goes to the emergency room gets his/her bill paid then the costs prices of having an emergency room will come down.

The costs prices now are high because those who pay subsidize those who don’t.

FTFY.

It’s an important distinction.

The prices are high because the costs are high. If the costs are not offset by the prices charged AND PAID then the emergency room closes.

No, the prices are high because those who pay subsidize those who don’t. Getting the government to pay (other things being equal) won’t bring costs down a bit, only prices.

E.g. right now the hospital may charge $3,000 for an ER visit that costs them $1,000, with most of the $2,000 delta going towards paying for people who go to the ER but have no money.

If the government pays, then the cost of the visit is still $1,000, but the price will go down below $3,000, since the hospital would get paid some from the government.

Okay, I see your point.

My FIL had a procedure done recently. It was administered by a nurse practitioner and took all of 15 minutes.

His bill………….$20K.

They may come down because some of those going to the ER go there because they can’t get in to see a primary care MD. Prevention costs a fraction of the ER.

Prevention costs a fraction of the ER.

Pretty much a myth.

Preventive care can certainly save in some specific cases, but its savings is generally offset by excessive diagnostics and over-treatment. Google it. There have been several studies done recently.

Price of a needle? $1.
Knowing where to stick it? $9,999
Cost of insurance in case they make an honest mistake: $10,000.

Total bill: $20,000.

Cute, not true, but cute.

Preventive care can certainly save in some specific cases, but its savings is generally offset by excessive diagnostics and over-treatment.

There’s one of the major cost problems right there, both in the ER and outside of it (though not the only one, of course). Those additional diagnostics and treatments in no way correlate to better outcomes for the patient, only higher costs.

Presumably your FIL knew the price of the procedure before paying the 20k, and chose to get it done and pay the 20k??? How is that not free market? Didn’t he say, “yes, this service, while expensive, is worth $20k?”

How much shopping around did he do to find a better price? How much negotiating did he do? What were the alternative prices he would have paid if he did not choose that nurse practitioner, but instead another one?

Mathguy,

This is but one of many procedures he’s having done for reasons I wont get into here. Kind of hard to shop for the best price in that circumstance. Let me clarify the $20K bill.
This was the total not his co-pay. But even he, who is liberal and wealthy, thought that the charge is outrageous. He has taught in medical school for 30+ years. His wife is an M.D. They have an idea of what the costs are. He is for national healthcare btw. We agree to disagree.

Prevention costs a fraction of the ER.

Pretty much a myth.

What do you base that on? Look at something like high blood pressure. It’s a huge problem, affecting millions. If left untreated it can cause all sorts of expensive health problems, yet it can often be controlled relatively inexpensively. Same is true for diabetes and many cancers. You’re saying it’s cheaper to treat a stroke victim or amputate a leg than to give someone blood pressure meds or insulin? Show me the numbers.

IMHO, we need more urgent care centers that are open 24 hours.

One of the reasons people go to the ER is because it might be the only thing open at 2:00 a.m. when people get sick.

yeah same here now. It’s about time too, but I don’t know how they make it.

More likely, the socialist programs are now reaping the “benefits” of a generation of downsizing, cornercutting, outsourcing, insourcing, and financial cheating, all to enrich a wealthy class that didn’t really need the extra wealth.

If we didn’t gut the middle class to where there are few jobs, we wouldn’t be worrying about entitlement programs, as fewer people would have needed them.

I have to say - that’s really stretching. Though it’s quite a generalization - I’ll state that you’re flat out wrong - that the opposite is true - it’s precisely the higher cost of these programs that have driven jobs away from the U.S., in addition to reducing the income of the middle-class people who do still have jobs here.

No, oxide is correct. The programs were weakened and under constant attack by the the 1%ers and ultimately undermined and then corrupted.

You should research a writer named Catherine Austin Fitts. She used to run a very successful investment company. The stories she tells of collusion and corruption between Wall St. and these Federal programs is hair raising… and documented.

Farfetched? For a current example, think Goldman Sachs alumni now running both the Treasury and the Fed and other key positions. You think this is new?

Packman is 100% correct. If you are not making it cheaper to do business this country, jobs will move offshore. Not only jobs, we are seeing brain drains now.
So, with so many jobs gone and some brains leaving US, good luck with your socialistic programs.

Many of the socialistic programs of FDR - SS, Fannie Mae, etc. - were never undone, only expanded as time went on (and now we’re reaping their “benefits”).

Hey Packy, dig up a chart to show that 98% of all mortgages since FHA was created went for socialist un-patriotic wasteful home loans to a majority of unproductive useless Americans. (You seemed quite sure of yourself about the complete & total destructive consequences of this program)

“The program originated during the Great Depression of the 1930s, when the rates of foreclosures and defaults rose sharply, and the program was intended to provide lenders with sufficient insurance. Some FHA programs were subsidized by the government, but the goal was to make it self-supporting, based on insurance premiums paid by borrowers.”

You should research a writer named Catherine Austin Fitts. She used to run a very successful investment company. The stories she tells of collusion and corruption between Wall St. and these Federal programs is hair raising… and documented.

Farfetched? For a current example, think Goldman Sachs alumni now running both the Treasury and the Fed and other key positions. You think this is new?

I am absolutely 100% certain that you’re right - that there are corporate influences behind all these programs.

The problem is that you equate “corporate corruption/influence” with all of American business, and it just isn’t so. A select few corporations - those that have inside tracks in government (e.g. Goldman Sachs etc.) - are the ones that benefit from these programs. The others get screwed (along with the taxpayers). That’s why these programs are implemented in the first place - to further the oligarchy of the largest and most politically connected.

That’s why you see Goldman Sachs, Citicorp, etc. people in these positions, and not some guy from the 2nd bank of Evansville or the like.

I used to work at a 3,000-person telecom equipment provider. My job was outsourced to China; I personally was sent to Shanghai to train my replacements. I saw firsthand how they use the cost-per-employee equations to do this - and things like corporate taxes are of course included these calculations. It wasn’t that wide of a margin - so even small changes in corporate tax rates/structure can have a huge impact on how many jobs are outsourced.

basura, without consumers who can afford your product, how will you stay in business? (granted, there are many insane and frivolous “fees” created by local governments) But don’t go blaming labor costs.

It’s not a one way street and in fact, the consumer is “the goose that lays the golden egg.”

If corporations think consumers ANYWHERE else on this planet are going to pay $10 for a 50cent product like the stupid idiots we Americans do, they are in for a literal world of hurt.

‘If corporations think consumers ANYWHERE else on this planet are going to pay $10 for a 50cent product like the stupid idiots we Americans do, they are in for a literal world of hurt.’

Excellent point.

You are exactly right, eco. Good posts.

No, that’s not what I think.

But it’s more proof that you are a lemming, Elanor. And a willing one at that.

Time for some hardball. You’re no moderate. You’re a leftist through-and-through. Out for corporate blood, as always. Government is thy savior, as always. I’ve yet to see any post from you on any subject to belie this notion.

Why are you so afraid of letting your true colors shine through? As Cyndi Lauper once sang - “true colors shinin’ thru- your true colors, that’s why we love you. So don’t be afraid…to let it show.”

You remind me strongly of someone else on this board- and you post on the same days, too. Interesting.

Big Insurance may have won a temporary reprieve..

It’s not temporary, it’s permanent. You assume that Dems will be in power forever. If that was the case, you are right Dems will slowly put more squeeze in insurance companies one step at a time. But that’s not a safe assumption.

Pubies will gain some in 2010, so any pipe dream you may have had about squeezing the insurance companies is pretty much DOA. The chances are some of things will be backtracked for various reasons are a lot greater than the full implemantion of this bill in 2014. But, mark my words Insurance companies won big time and there is a celebration going on at the Blue Cross building that is next to my building.

Eudemon, I will give you ONE chance to apologize for calling me a lemming. You don’t know me. Everyone who disagrees with you is not an idiot, or an Obamabot, or a mystifying little furry creature that will follow its brethren over a cliff. Got that?

Eudemon, try to refrain from personal attacks. My posts skew toward health care because that’s what I know. Small businesses and their survival are also a matter of interest to me. Big corporations? My husband works for one. Many are OK. Many are a source of big problems. Specifically, Big Agra and Big Finance, which includes Big Insurance.

Your implication that I have an alter ego on this board is rather tin-foil-hatty.

I always enjoy your insightful posts, Elanor.

Based on what I’ve seen over the years, I’d bet most of the posters here would agree with your position.

How many times have we heard that about home builders stocks after the 1st. time buyer tax rebates? Some of these stocks have been run up over 30% in 3 months on lower volume. The time to evaluate these stocks is after the Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius starts to define the limits of this bill.

Add in the unfunded medicare and social security liability of $107 trillion and each person is on the hook for an additional $325K. With 110 million households in the country, each household has a $1 million liability hanging over its head. Whatever you think your net worth is, subtract $1 million.

unfunded medicare and social security liability of $107 trillion

Um… OK. Link?

http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/ba662.pdf

you can also use this: http://www.usdebtclock.org/#

Interesting info, but I have problems with that report:

A. The numbers are all generally based on this:

if Medicare and Medicaid spending continues growing annually at 2.5 percentage points above GDP growth:

While I don’t know if the past data they quote is true or not (2.5 pct above GDP since 1970), obviously this is not something that would continue for 72 more years. Projecting out that far is kind of stupid. While the numbers may be correct based on “current rates”, certainly there will be tweaks long before then - e.g. the health care bill.

For instance rate rises set via the “Sustainable Growth Rate” system are scheduled to expire every year (e.g. this month actually), but are typically extended. The extensions on these would presumably just be stopped at some point.

B. It states that in 2009 the deficits of both the programs was 14% of general revenues. There’s no information on where this comes from, but it’s way high. Medicare and SS are just now reaching deficit status - they didn’t lose $290B in 2009, which would be 14% of revenues - not even close.

Don’t get me wrong - the programs are definitely headed in the wrong direction - but they’re definitely not in that bad of shape.

The little known last verse, for obvious reasons (gol’ durned commies!)

“In the squares of the city - In the shadow of the steeple
Near the relief office - I see my people
And some are grumblin’ and some are wonderin’
If this land’s still made for you and me.”

MrBubble

PS: Our Free Farm project got some press in the SF Comical today. To any SF-ers who’d like to lend a hand and help to feed some of those without, we’d welcome the help!

You’re right, packman. I went to bed last night with a very heavy heart. Not for nothing was the shamnasty rally held the same day as the vote for death spiral care. Put it all together and it has to dawn on you that the globalist agenda is hard at work. I mean, take a look at it, the whole immigration thing (legal and illegal) is completely and utterly insane. What country would allow what has taken place and imprison people (like Ramos and Compean) who try to defend the country from drug dealers? What country would permit a polyglot of cultures and languages to take the place of a unified culture and language? What country would allow the shenanigans with regard to health care? The United Corporation of Multinationals.

Here’s how it rolls: No job or profession is safe. Accounting? Engineering? Outsourced to India and people who have a two week certificate, not a college education. (Hey Bill Gates, how’s that Windows Vista work out for you?) Health care? Lol. Again, doctors from Mexico and India, willing to take those gubmint payments. Nurses from the Phillipines who speak English and Spanish. Or just Spanish. Ah, but the lawyers are safe, right? Guess again. That can be outsourced, too. Manufacturing? China takes care of that. Farming? We need “the people” to work in the fields for squat, so we’ll get those Mexicans and Central Americans up here.

And, because not one of those groups could survive unless subsidized, we’ll squeeze every last penny out of the “American citizen” and hand it over.

“Nurses from the Philippines who speak English and Spanish. Or just Spanish.”

A nurse from the Philippines who speaks Spanish would be a very well educated nurse. Not that many people in the Philippines speak Spanish since their language is Filipino.

Filipino? Never heard of Filipino. Tagalog, I’ve heard of.

Filipino? Never heard of Filipino. Tagalog, I’ve heard of.

The official language is called Filipino. Basically, it is the same as Tagalog. And it does have words adapted/absorbed from Spanish

This is not America.

“…but our national march to IDIOCRACY is well advanced.”

Go away!

Huh?

Well, this country sucks now. I want to start a new one, like the Israelis did.

“Huh?”

It’s part of a line from Idiocracy.

It’s not such a big deal because they use the metric system up there. 7-10x in Canada is like 4-6x here.

Thank you. Yes, I am here all zee week.

Drumroll, please ! Actually, I liked that joke, John.

Yeah, well you’re slim, so you can fit.

Project 2015:

Modified slightly (Roof Retreat)…1000′ sf x3 fireplaces

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51g1ziL8EDL._SL500_.jpg

I’m sure it has, but from what I’ve heard its still hardly a free wheeling Adam Smith paradise.

When I spoke with my former colleagues in India they were shocked to find out that employee benefits like paid holidays and vacations and severance pay were not required by law in the good old USA.

When I spoke with my former colleagues in India they were shocked to find out that employee benefits like paid holidays and vacations and severance pay were not required by law in the good old USA.

They are, in various forms - e.g. WARN act.

Actually I take that back - WARN act isn’t technically severance, just requires 60 days of forewarning before layoffs, if laying off a certain amount of people.

Interesting how those greedy companies still offer vacations, decent severance, sick time, etc even when not legally obligated to do so. Does not compute, given that companies are driven solely by greed.

But they sure are reducing those benefits for their ever shrink US based workforce.

Heh. You’re right. It’s one of the biggest jokes in history, how our business lobby wanted to open the doors of China to our products. I mean this was the cry 100 years ago. Instead they turned the tables on us. It didn’t help that our pols were determined to be pliant and give them everything they wanted. Even that was probably condescension. China could never hurt us…LOL. Juvenal would laugh.

Wawa, is that you? Kundalinia yoga, man, that’s where it’s at!

Montana, we’ve got a family of “the best and the brightest” who bought a Subway franchise near here. There’s another one in the area that’s been here for 20 years, great place, they pile the sandwiches high with meat and veggies, which is mainly what I go there for. Anyway, like an idiot, I went to the other one one day because it was a little closer. Big mistake. Of course, when you walk in you’re greeted with hugh oily smiles. But watch that sandwich preparation. The resentful daughter in law peeled off and set aside one of the roast beef slices in the pre-prepared portion (do that four or five times, you’ve got an extra sandwich, right?). But the fun really started with the garnishes. I asked for black olives and she carefully arranges three thin little black olive slices. I couldn’t believe it.

What I ended up with was a footlong roll with a little smattering of meat and lettuce. Well, that’s what I get for patronizing the new place. Will stick to the American owned old faithful in the future, where they know how to make a sandwich.

Globalization. It’s what’s for dinner!

Wazzup bud…sure all american places know how to make a sandwich.

Check out the variety at these places…ah..what goes for salad here, lettuce, tomatoes, onions….now drag that farm animal out we need some red meat on those buns. Ya got it…a grand meal. Surprise, surpise it is the super value meat…straight from that giant value pack that was on sale!! Yippee…I just cannot wait to get all those hormones in. Throw in that big coke will ya…need that.

There you have it…artery clogging, enamel corrosive meal served to some of the fattest whiners in the world.

Please, brahma30, if you’re a Brahmin please go back and worship the Brahmas in your own caste. If you don’t like it here, please enjoy your life in a more salubrious society. Speaking of whining.

who is whining here….it’s palmetto who is upset someone handed him a sandwich he did not like and blames globalization for that. hello??….what has a local diner sandwich got to do with globalization? he is upset about immigration…there is a difference between the two. comprendo?

Could this be a trendy new kids show about low paid under age super heroes? Watch out Teen Titans! There’s a new team of underage superheroes from the 3rd world whowill kick bad guy butt for 1/10 of your cost!

Introducing:

Dalit Boy
Call Center Girl
?

Northeastner……I firmly believe in your last paragraph . I watched it myself when America operated in a more protective way and people prospered more . You also have a bigger tax base when you have more local jobs ,and more taxes just by volume finances more public good ,as long as the taxes aren’t oppressive of course and they tend not to be when you have a bigger base to collect from .

Yes, good post, Northeastener.

Can’t speak for eudemon, but speaking for myself - who makes considerably less than $160k a year - if I was out of a salary for well over a year, I’d still be far away from needing food stamps.

Yes, very much considerable lack of responsibility by this guy. To say otherwise is foolish. The guy simply didn’t save for a rainy day.

Not everyone lives paycheck-to-paycheck eco.

Especially to those that have an entitlement mentality.

You know, to those who can’t “make do”, or feel it beneath them to accept numerous jobs.

I grew up in Chicago - hardly “sheltered”.

You just keep believing that.

I’m not sticking up for the guy because I don’t his personal story, but you better believe you can be wiped out in the blink of eye no matter how smart you think you are.

Or don’t. *shrug* No skin off my nose.

Maybe the sky really IS falling.

No, we don’t agree on anything.

You’re just being honest for the first time (that I’ve seen).

You’re a very well paid liberal elistist who would like nothing more than to dictate to others how they should live their lives. You want the United States and capitalism to fail and the government to run the show, preferably via fascism.

As a libertarian, I think people have the capacity, talent and skills to succeed on their own, and to run their lives admirably and independently. Note that I’m strictly middle class, not an elitist.

That I can live well without your elitist interference irritates you to no end.

Your goal in response is to force compliance against the will of every individual you possibly can.

You have little in common with a “pro rights” Democrat. And you know it.

Soon, millions will know it as you work to tighten the noose around their necks.

That said, our lack of agreement on all topics thus far should be apparent to you.

The sky is falling the sky is falling!

The super-lame-O labels aren’t working for you anymore. Granted they did a good job at demogoguing anything that didn’t serve to advance the agenda of the wealthy elite but no more.

In other words, get some new material.

Blah, blah, blah eudemon, get that hairball out of your throat:

“Hey Pilgrim,…there ain’t enough room in America for the likes of you exeter, scram!”

Eudemon: You talkin’ ta me? Or Exeter?

Someone has gotten under your skin today. This is just crazy talk.

Enraging loons with facts is fun.

50 million people without affordable medical access. Ever rising, double digit, costs with ever decreasing services. Constantly changing rules with more and more conditions not covered and unacceptable delays in reimbursements and approvals.

The only thing this is better than is a sharp stick in the eye. And just barely at that.

Are any of you familiar with the consequences of large populations without adequate medical care? Can you say “pandemic?” Can you say MDR and XDR TB? Polio? Smallpox? Why no, they weren’t completely eradicated and are making a comeback. Want to guess why?

Your first paragraph sounds like a typical gov’t run program. Like I wrote earlier, Medicare is the biggest denier of claims today.

There are really only about 12 million people without insurance and they can easily be covered without the gov’t taking over 1/6 of the economy. I could write a bill in one to two pages that would accomplish it. Do you really believe a 2,000 page bill will reduce complexity and costs? The first rule in nature is to keep things simple. 2,000 pages is hardly simple.

You’re right about those diseases. Everytime I go outside, I have to step over dead bodies. I see people dropping dead all the time with their last words being, “If only I had health insurance, I wouldn’t have dropped dead on the street.”

If those diseases are making a comeback in this country, it is because of the 20 million illegals aliens that have invaded. This is just another proof that the gov’t isn’t very good at delivering even on the most basic responsibilities but yet let’s hand them health care. That sounds smart.

And protecting the borders is something that gov’t should be doing, you know part of “provide for the common defense” which comes from an ancient, nearly forgotten document written by white male racists, called the Constitution.

ecofeco,,,,,,That’s what I think about “pandemics “.I really would like to get the insurance companies out of the health care business at this point and go to a single payer National health Plan . They updated my insurance plan ,they raised the price and lowered what was covered .

If he walks away from his house and mortgage, and he lives in a recourse state, then he’ll probably be sorry in the long run, because the bank will dog him and his credit will be ruined. I don’t think that’s such a smart idea. Plus, isn’t the IRS still presenting people whose houses have sold at a short sale a big bill for the amount of mortgage that they didn’t “have” to pay ? Isn’t that still considered taxable income to them ?