More Money Down The Tubes In Florida
The St Petersburg Times reports from Florida. “Developed in 2004 and sold largely to investors, Carriage Pointe offers an extreme example of the dilemma faced by area suburbs ravaged by foreclosures: Which is worse, an empty house or an unsuitable renter? Homeowner Kourtney Ingrati said she became aware of the issue in December 2007 when two Carriage Pointe teenagers — who lived in a Section 8 house — were charged with shooting two other teens after school. Ingrati poured her outrage into a letter to the authority. ‘I purchased a home at the peak of the housing market at $220,000, and my home is worth $100,000, along with anyone else who purchased homes during that time,’ she wrote. ‘How do you expect our community to bounce back if the residents you are placing here barely make minimum wage?’”
The Palm Beach Post. “The Obama administration announced more assistance Friday for underwater and unemployed homeowners, saying the foreclosure crisis has shifted from volatile subprime loans to ‘hardworking” people.’ ‘This will focus on affordability and foreclosure prevention for responsible homeowners, who, through no fault of their own find themselves in a situation of negative equity,’ said FHA Commissioner David Stevens.”
“Joel Bienvenu, a laid-off marketing specialist with a home west of Boca Raton, is hoping the new plan will help him and his wife, an architect who lost her job when her company closed. The couple tried unsuccessfully last year to get a modification to lower their interest rate. Bienvenu, who is current on his mortgage payments, said the best offer the bank gave him allowed him to go two months without paying, but then required three full payments in the third month.”
“The couple rejected the offer, and were dismissed from the program. Bienvenu says they’ll start again from scratch. ‘They said if we weren’t working, they wouldn’t even consider us for a modification,’ Bienvenu said. ‘This program sounds like it’s designed more to help the unemployed.’”
The Herald Tribune. “The latest plan is weak on several fronts, said Dean Baker, the co-director of the nonpartisan Center for Economic and Policy Research. ‘I don’t think it will make much of a difference,’ Baker said. ‘You have a lot of homes so badly underwater the principal write-down won’t go far enough to help.’”
“Another problem is the FHA loan concept. By not addressing that in certain markets home values are still tumbling, the government agency that insures home loans against default will get into the same type of trouble it did during the housing crash: Homeowners will be underwater once again and as likely to walk away as they are now, only this time leaving the FHA even more on the hook than it already is.”
“And if a decent principal write-down should occur, second mortgage holders would have little reason to modify their loans even if the government is going to double what they pay for the work, Baker said. That is because after the write-down, the homeowner can afford to make both the first and second mortgage payments and the second mortgage holder will ultimately receive all of the money due rather than a few thousand dollars.”
“‘I’d give it a C-minus,’ he said of the plan. ‘It will provide some help to some homeowners, but the main beneficiaries will be lenders and servicers.’”
“The administration cautioned that the plan is not intended to stop all foreclosures or assist all troubled homeowners. ‘There’s no intention here of tackling what may be 10 to 12 million foreclosures over the course of the next three years,’ said Diana Farrell, a White House economic adviser.”
The News Press. “Administration officials cautioned that the plan isn’t an instant cure, won’t stop all foreclosures or help all troubled homeowners. Instead, officials said their goal is to meet their original target, announced last year, of helping 3 million to 4 million borrowers avoid foreclosure.”
“‘In general, I am supporting of any action against people losing their homes,’ said David Hall, president of First Community Bank of Southwest Florida in Fort Myers. ‘Banks don’t want to take back homes. On the other hand, customers have to be making their payments. If the government helps them make their payment, it would be wonderful.’”
“Fort Myers attorney Charles Phoenix, who has handled numerous foreclosures, called Friday’s action ‘window dressing.’ He said those on unemployment get a ‘meager amount,’ and even if their mortgage were reduced by 31 percent, they’re still in trouble. In Florida, the benefits are up to $300 a week. ‘How much it helps …. for me, it’s just more money down the tubes,’ Phoenix said.”
“On the other hand, Phoenix said, ‘It’s a step in the right direction. A couple of years too late, but still it’s a step in the right direction. This creates a lot of hope, which is a good thing.’”
The Miami Herald. “Cut-rate foreclosures, rock-bottom interest rates and lucrative tax breaks helped South Florida home sales edge higher in February. At the current rate of sales, there were enough homes on the market in Miami-Dade and Broward to last 14 months and 10 months, respectively, according to data provided by EWM Realtors. For condominiums, there is enough inventory to last about 21 months in Miami-Dade and 11 months for Broward. A year ago, homes and condos could expect to sit on the market about twice that long.”
“Still, what is characterizing the South Florida real estate market now are the foreclosures and short sales sloshing through the system, said David Dabby, a real estate analyst. When the foreclosure rate hit 16 to 17 percent of homes on the market in the 1980s and early 1990s, market watchers thought it couldn’t get worse. Now, about six out of every 10 homes for sale are in foreclosure, he said.”
“‘Anybody who wants to take advantage of foreclosures, this is the ultimate market to do it,’ Dabby said. ‘There will never be one like this in our lifetime.”’
“But with price likely to be stuck in the doldrums for months to come, real estate is not the road to quick profits. ‘In my opinion you don’t want to buy a home today unless one of two things are true: Either you need a home to live in or the price is a steal,’ Dabby said.”
“Lawrence Yun, the National Association of Realtors chief economist said…the market is stronger now than it was last year. However, Yun acknowledged that ‘the housing recovery is fragile at the moment’ and the real estate market is facing a crucial test. The industry has set its sights on this spring’s buying season, when more people could take advantage of a recently renewed tax credit for first-time home buyers and others that is due to expire in April.”
“‘The key test for a durable recovery comes in the next few months as the tax credit deadline approaches,’ he said.”
The Sunshine State News. “Economist David Denslow offered a snapshot into Florida’s future — and it’s not as dire as many predict. ‘It’s not a great, rapid recovery, but it is there and we won’t have to wait until 2013 or 2014 to see it,’ he said.”
“Denslow, a professor and research economist at the University of Florida, addressed the Economic Club of Florida in Tallahassee Friday on ‘The Economic Influence of Florida’s Changing Demography.’ ‘What’s clearly going to happen is the rate of growth in Florida will slow down,’ Denslow said. ‘There will not be as many construction and real estate jobs as before.’”
“He said that Florida’s economy and its unemployment remained tied to the housing market. Noting that the number of two parent families with children were declining, Denslow insists this did not mean that there would be a housing crisis. ‘The demand for housing,’ he said, ‘has nothing to do with kids.’ Denslow said that families with children spend on their kids and not their houses.”
“Denslow reviewed the changes in the housing market that Florida has seen over the last 30 years. He said that the housing market kept pace with the rate of inflation from 1980 until 2000, before housing prices started increasingly drastically. Denslow said too many people insisted there was no housing bubble. He specifically targeted David Lereah, who formerly served the chief economist for the National Association of Realtors. Lereah wrote the book Why the Real Estate Boom Will Not Burst and was very bullish on the future of the market.”
The Sun Coast News. “Richard Gehring is a chief architect of a growth management plan for Pasco during the next five years. Even though the Great Recession has zapped the area’s economy the past few years, Gehring foresees a rebound. During the past 10 years, property values saw outlandish gains. Property values were going up $50 a day in the statewide average, Gehring said. Many Naples homes were appreciating by $300 a day in some of the state’s real estate hot spots.”
“‘It created this balloon of value … which then burst,’ Gehring commented.”
“Diversifying will provide the key to progress in Pasco, Gehring emphasized. ‘We’ve been too dependent on construction,’ Gehring observed.”
From TC Palm. “Another South Florida developer has defaulted on its bank loans meant to build a massive residential development that promised to bring some workforce housing to Indian River County, according to a civil lawsuit filed in Indian River Circuit Court. Court records show National City Bank, now PNC Bank, won a $2.28 million foreclosure judgment against CJM Development Inc., of Boca Raton for nonpayment of loans.”
“The company’s Web site lists one subdivision in Vero Beach currently in development called Bella Vista Isles. The company’s last update on the project in July 2007 describes the development as a ‘luxurious, private-gated community,’ featuring lake views and a pool. According to previous Press Journal reports, the project’s controversial rezoning request for more density was approved by the Indian River County Commission and CJM was granted final approval in 2006 to build the 136-unit townhouse community.”
“At the time, approval was contingent upon the developer pricing 10 of the units at $166,500, 10 more at $199,500 and another 10 at $219,000. CJM could then sell each of the 106 remaining town houses for $300,000. Local residents living in the surrounding area were strongly opposed to the project during the county’s approval process, stating that the development would cause more traffic on the roads.”
From Ocala.com. “If Jeff Hartwell had tried to rent space for his new hair salon even three years ago, the deal would have been significantly different from the favorable one he negotiated last year. ‘[Landlords] would have laughed at you and said, ‘Get in line. There’s 30 more like you,’ said the 46-year-old hairstylist and businessman.”
“But in three years, the demand for shopping plaza space had fallen as severely as the economy. When Hartwell approached the plaza’s owners to lease space, he already had a backup location in case his first choice didn’t pan out. By the time Hartwell left the negotiating table, his cost per square foot was ’significantly’ less than what the plaza owners had asked, he said. In addition, the plaza had paid about half of the $80,000 needed to convert the nearly 1,500-square-foot space into a salon. ‘These are terms you would have gotten back in 1994,’ he said. ‘They [plaza owners] are just trying to get their [loan] interest paid.’”
“John Breder knows all about this trend. He owns and manages 25 shopping plazas throughout Florida. ‘Three years ago you couldn’t do anything wrong. You just had to hang a sign out on the property. We were having a ball,’ he said.”
‘Most area plaza owners and managers agree. One joked that ‘even a monkey could have made money.’ They also agree that by 2008, the party was ending. ‘As the economy took its downturn … we had three, four, five vacancies at each location,’ Breder said. By the time the recession was in full swing, ‘you couldn’t lease a store to save your life,’ he recalled.”
‘For the most part, that’s still the case. But it isn’t just the vacancies that are the problem. It’s also the bank mortgages, typically in five-year renewal increments, that are the next looming storm. Banks made those loans based on the value of the plazas back when the loans were made. But now that both land values and revenues have fallen, banks aren’t likely to renew loans at the same terms. They’re likely to seek more of a down payment — money the plaza owners won’t likely have during this recession.”
“Banks need the extra money because they are under pressure from federal regulators to clean up their books and show more cash reserves to back outstanding loans. Many of those loans are based on properties that have taken financial dives in value. ‘The amount of distressed properties is going to continue to grow rapidly. The people that purchased properties during the boom have a cost basis that can’t be supported during the recovery,’ said Bartow McDonald, managing director for Spery Van Ness/ Skye Commercial Real Estate.”
“While plaza owners and banks might be some of the losers, there are going to be some winners, McDonald predicts. Some will be new investors buying the mortgage notes at 30 cents to 40 cents on the dollar. In some cases those new mortgage holders will offer plaza owners the chance pay off their mortgages at reduced rates, too. Other winners will include tenants that are able to renegotiate new lease contracts, he said, because new owners won’t have as much money invested in the plazas as the previous ones did.”
“‘Capitalism is wonderful in that regard,’he said.”
“Shopping plazas aren’t the only businesses struggling to keep tenants. Just a few years ago, renters skipping out of their apartment leases in Ocala were rarities. Maybe one a month would break their lease at Tuscany Place Apartments, said Andrea Zullo, regional manager for Gray Co. Properties, which owns the 288-unit apartment complex.”
“Now she sees six or seven a month. Filling those vacancies is getting tougher. ‘You definitely have to work for it. It’s not coming to you,’ Zullo said”.
“To keep their occupancy numbers up, apartment complexes are turning to incentives that they wouldn’t have bothered with just a few years ago. All told, Tuscany’s rent cuts and other incentives total about two months worth of free rent for an average new tenant, according to Zullo. Tuscany is doing what many complexes are trying: cutting rents, doing away with application fees, and reducing the cost of optional features like garage fees or floor-level requests.”
“The apartment complex’s residents are mostly middle class, including working families, some singles, professionals and some retirees. ‘It’s not that we’re losing [our renters] to competitors. We’re losing them to unemployment,’ Zullo said.”
“Lee County’s rental market is a work in progress, but there is a silver lining - higher occupancy rates. Lee County’s apartment occupancy increased 7.2 percent in the fourth quarter of 2009 from the previous year to 91.1 percent, according to statistics. The increase was the highest in the state.”
“Of the renters Sue Lutter, a broker for Fort Myers-based Gulf Waters Rentals and Management, has recently seen, many of them are people who have lost their homes to foreclosure. And today’s low rental rates make renting an attractive option for people looking for a place to live. Lee County’s apartment rental rates dropped 12.2 percent to an average $776 a month in the fourth quarter of 2009, according to RealFacts - and three months into this year, not much has changed.”
“The median price for a single-family home in Lee County is also down - in February, it was $88,000, down from $97,500 a year earlier. But that doesn’t seem to deter Southwest Floridians from renting. Bill Powers, a Montego Bay resident and former Wells Fargo banker, said he chose renting over buying to save money.”
“Although homes are being sold at such low rates, there are additional costs that come with buying a home. ‘If you buy a used home, you better be prepared to spend some money on fixing it,’ said Powers, who had to wait for an available unit at Montego Bay. ‘I like renting because I can’t fix a thing.’”
’second mortgage holders would have little reason to modify their loans even if the government is going to double what they pay for the work, Baker said. That is because after the write-down, the homeowner can afford to make both the first and second mortgage payments and the second mortgage holder will ultimately receive all of the money due rather than a few thousand dollars…’It will provide some help to some homeowners, but the main beneficiaries will be lenders and servicers.’
‘The administration cautioned that the plan is not intended to stop all foreclosures or assist all troubled homeowners.’
‘There’s no intention here of tackling what may be 10 to 12 million foreclosures over the course of the next three years,’ said Diana Farrell, a White House economic adviser.’
I’ll let that last one just hang out there…
My jaw hit the keyboard.
‘There’s no intention here of tackling what may be 10 to 12 million foreclosures over the course of the next three years,’ said Diana Farrell, a White House economic adviser.’
Isn’t that about 10 percent of households? If one assumes 60 to 65 percent of households “own”, wouldn’t that be 15+ percent of “owners” ending up in foreclosure? That’s a big number, especially on top of the foreclosures that have already occurred.
It’s goes deeper than that. This program modified less than 200k loans out of 3 million. Over half of those have or will re-default. And the govt says 10-12 million are coming with no plan to address those. Window dressing indeed.
Whetever is takes to extend it past the next election. They are succeeding with what they are setting out to do. Extend it.
In the end it will probably be worse.
It’s just a matter of what the goals truly are.
“Pretend And Extend”
Just like the expression used in the Ocala article.
It has nothing to do with relief of falling-knife holders.
It has nothing to do with “capitalism.”
It is only about “control.”
If the k-street hookers were interested in what’s best for America they would be more into Von Misien economics than the gay, pedophile J.M. Keyne’s perspective.
http://mises.org/
NOT! there is ANYTHING bad about being ga ga ay.
I have the same question…The ownership rate ballooned to 67% when histrionically it was 62%…But that is 62% of family households…The question I have is how many households are there ?? Then we could do a accurate calculation of what 10-12 million foreclosures represents…
Try 100 million.
Obama sez: “Thats alot of votes, I better pretend to help.”
I just did a few shoot from the hip calculations and I came up with 80 mil so you may in fact be correct…So, the anticipated foreclosures to come may be somewhere in the vicinity 10-15% of the total potential units that have the ability to be owner occupied…
Now if we consider that 80% of those may be concentrated in four states what is the percentage of foreclosures to the number of units that can be owner occupied ?? I have a feeling it is a pretty ugly number meaning that the pain that those four states have experienced so far would be dwarfed by the tsunami of 10-12 mil more if it holds to be true…
“The ownership rate ballooned to 67% when histrionically it was 62%…”
I would suggest the ownership rate ballooning to 67% was the histrionic part.
This ’save’ the house re-do is a colossal waste of time and money, and comments like this just cement that fact.
Spoke with a real-a-tor/appraiser yesterday, he’s cut way,way back in his personal expenses. Said his business is the worst it’s ever been. Sold his R.Rover and 740-il and bought a used Toyota Prius. The biggest problem as he sees it is lack of loans available for potential home buyers.
I said, how so, we were approved almost instantly. Of course we have very good credit and a long track record of paying our debt. He said yea but what about the folks that would buy but can’t due to less that stellar credit?
No problem I said, they can’t do it, until they straighten their situation out. Plain and simple, purchasing a house is not a “right”. At least not yet.
He like so many got used to endless credit for every Tom,Dick,&Harry, and still think the next party boat is just over the horizon.
‘…purchasing a house is not a “right”. At least not yet.’
Not a “requirement,” either (unlike purchasing medical insurance coverage) — at least not yet.
Let’s see:
- Over 300,000 foreclosures over each of the past 12 months…
- If the recent rate of foreclosures is indicative of the next three years,
we might expect another 3*12*300,000 = 10,800,000 foreclosures in the next three years.
Well. We were estimating 17 million foreclosures and short sales a few years back.
If there are anything like 10 million… pretty well in the ball park.
I am thinking the ten to twenty million range ought to cover it, especially given Uncle Sam’s proven tendency to lowball numbers which are emblematic of bad news.
That line stopped me in my tracks, too. Bet Diana Farrell has already been ushered out the door and into one of those government-speak Re-education Camps. Can’t have officials acknowledging reality to the governed! That’s strictly inside information!
‘officials said their goal is to meet their original target, announced last year, of helping 3 million to 4 million borrowers avoid foreclosure’
OK, so they’re trying to meet LAST YEAR’s target? Wow, that’s getting ahead of the problem. And forget about the 10+ million to come.
‘if a decent principal write-down should occur, second mortgage holders would have little reason to modify their loans even if the government is going to double what they pay for the work, Baker said. That is because after the write-down, the homeowner can afford to make both the first and second mortgage payments and the second mortgage holder will ultimately receive all of the money due rather than a few thousand dollars’
Ah, yes, the much forgotten second lien holder. Weren’t we told the government was just going to wipe away all these pesky contracts?
And why do so many foreclosures involve second liens, when lenders were making close to 100% loans in the first place? Cuz these people were cashing out like crazy! They got their money, DC, and sold the place to the bank! So why don’t they just get the loot out and pay it back? Oh, yeah, THEY SPENT IT!
“And why do so many foreclosures involve second liens, when lenders were making close to 100% loans in the first place? Cuz these people were cashing out like crazy!”
I don’t think that is really true, Ben. My personal opinion is that while there were many “close to 100% loans” during the credit bubble, that a huge share of loans were still being written as 80/20s. My impression is based on a small sample-set, granted—just my friends and acquaintances who have happened to mention their loans during conversations about the bubble.
Does anyone know of a source for hard data on the types of loans being written during the bubble years?
Here in Palm Beach County I could play a game. See a neighbor with a new Mercedes or BMW. Two months later go to the tax records website. Sure enough, a home equity loan was taken out at the same time the new luxury car showed up. Almost 100% of the time.
I don’t have a source, but I can tell you something anecdotal: I know *a lot* of people who say they have 80/20 loans that really have 100% loans. Next time you hear somebody say they have an 80/20 loan, poke a little to find out if the 20 comes from another loan, i.e. they borrowed 80% from one lender and 20% from a different lender. They think they have an 80/20, but when you get down to it, it’s a 100%+ because they pay for two loans (but I guess they don’t have to pay mortgage insurance).
I think a lot of it was “piggybacks” to avoid mortgage insurance.
“Next time you hear somebody say they have an 80/20 loan, poke a little to find out if the 20 comes from another loan, i.e. they borrowed 80% from one lender and 20% from a different lender.”
Sorry if I wasn’t clear; that’s exactly what I meant to say. A large chunk of the people who borrowed 100% actually borrowed it in two separate loans: an 80% loan and a 20% loan.
Ben was questioning why there were second-liens in so many places, when people borrowed 100%. I believe that a large number of those borrowing 100% were doing it via an 80% first and a 20% second. So yes, there are a huge number of second-liens out there, and it does not necessarily mean that everyone was getting cash-out for toys.
If that’s the case (80% first lien, 20% second lien), then the $64,000 question is this: is the second lien holder the same institution as the first lienholder or is the second lien holder a different institution?
In either case, the second lien holder is toast.
Yes, that’s been my experience too Mike Viking. And the kicker, most really think they DID put 20% down because they’ve made themselves the empty promise of paying down the piggyback asap. Yeah, right.
“OK, so they’re trying to meet LAST YEAR’s target? Wow, that’s getting ahead of the problem. And forget about the 10+ million to come.”
170,000 down, 9,830,000+ to go…
This whole RE and lender game and scam is just one big incestuous financial circle jerk.
These big banksters outfits are usually either a primary and secondary lein holders on the same type notes.
They can’t very well start cutting the throats of their secondary lein holders without getting their own throats cut on the round of next loan modifications.
We are gonna need some real blood and a little more shredded dead meat in the water for the sharks to start attacking each other.
Somebody start chumming and start playing the Jaws music.
No, no, no, like David Stockman she was taken to the wood shed
“Jill and Rickie Simmons literally could not move out of Carriage Pointe fast enough.
While they were loading their moving van on a recent Thursday afternoon, a stranger stole $3,500 from the console of their truck.
The Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office sent a deputy, but it was too late. Their moving money was gone in broad daylight.
The couple, who lived in a house owned by Rickie’s grandparents, say they’ve seen vandalism and heard gunfire during their two years in this neighborhood. Children were not cared for properly, Jill said. “They’d walk around with nothing but diapers in the cold weather.”
Great article on Section 8 housing in Hillsborough County and how it can go awfully wrong. Basically turning a development into “the projects”. Wow.
Yep, and it’s part of the Neighborhood Stabilization program…
“Neighborhood Stabilization program…”
Bwahahahaha. If that isn’t Orwellian “newspeak”, I dunno what is. BTW, Carriage Pointe (doncha just love the “e” on the end of that word? Makes it more “upscale”, lol) is in southern Hillsborough County, which is my neck of the woods. When I first moved here in 2000 from the other side of the state, it was a sleepy backwater of Hillsborough County that no one wanted to have much to do with. I loved it, nice and quiet, with easy access to Tampa. It has changed so dramatically in ten years, mainly because there was a LOT of open land, farmland, etc. that developers couldn’t wait to get their hands on. As a result, the over-development has been massive. And the results have been abysmal for the area.
For example, the Ruskin Community Development Foundation (Ruskin being one of the towns in the area) has had an annual Tomato Festival here ever since I’ve lived in the area. It’s a major fundraiser they used to have at E.G. Simmons Park, a county park on Tampa Bay. I don’t know what happened, I suspect the county didn’t want to subsidize the festival, or upped their rates to use the park, but first the foundation changed the venue to the parking lot of Hillsborough Community College. Now it has been postponed indefinitely. Now that’s what I call stabilization.
I’ve heard plenty of anecdotes from various residents in some of these new developments around here (see my post below). Vandalism is rampant. One local realtor I know manages a property for a client who owns a house in one community and has trouble renting it out because of the condition of the development. Another development is allegedly being used for gang initiations.
Section Eighte Villas: luxury welfare
I know some people opening a “Grille.” They said, joking, that you can charge more if you put an ‘e’ at the end.
Housinge Bubblee Bloge.
Like Passe-a-Grille.
Is this section 8 approved? Not what the developer had in mind I am sure.
http://www.operatowerleasing.com/
LOL, pressboard, good one! I’m sure it was originally planned for lugzhurry condoze at a million dollars a pop. Now it will become the scene for a bad Cops episode.
Palmetto:
Thanks for your comments on my article. I’d love to know more about the gang initiation. Can you possibly help me get in touch with your realtor friend? You can reach me at sokol@sptimes.com or (813) 624-2739.
Many government program titles make far more sense if you add a prefix to one of the words that changes the meaning into the exact opposite. For instance:
- Neighborhood Destabilization Program
- Making Home Unaffordable
- etc.
Hello palmetto! Good to see yah again.
In a few months my school semester will be over and I will be visiting my brother in Boca. I think I would enjoy having a sandwich and a coffee with yah in FL. Let me know if you are ok with it.
Hey HBBers I’m still alive and doing well. A 28 bagger (purchased nine years ago) has placed me “over the top.” Life is wonderful without any RE - never had any, prolly never will
Back to hitting the books…
Hiya, TCM! Good to see yer still kickin’, I was gone for a while myself.
What’s a “28 bagger?” (maybe I just haven’t had enuf cawfee yet)
A stock investment that is now worth 28 times what you paid for it originally.
Awesome, bro’. Wish I had me a 28 bagger!
Palm - can you post an encrypted email address?
ie…ziggy5@hotmail.com = ziggy (number “5″) hat warm mail dot comb
TCM, not sure how I would do that, exactly. I’d love to have a meet-up, but unfortunately my physical mobility (and my pride) are a little restricted at the moment and might be for a while. Hence, my hiatus from the blog. But never fear, palmetto shall prevail!
okie dokie…
AAPL?
“Ten miles north in a county office, Gil Machin fields calls from angry homeowners.
As manager of the Section 8 housing voucher program, Machin helps needy families find lodging. By design, the federal program is supposed to disperse renters to avoid creating ghettos.”
And that’s exactly what I’ve seen happening in South Hillsborough County since the height of the bubble. St. Pete and Tampa “re-distributed” their population, especially from those urban neighborhoods slated for “re-development”. It’s been a real boon to infestors in those crappy “new” developments here in this area. I’ve heard anecdotes here and there about people living in fear in some of these developments. The vandalism, etc.
Parrish Dave could tell a few stories, he lived in one of those developments. Thank heaven he only rented.
BTW, Rte 301 going north and south through Hillsborough County is a complete disaster, since a lot of development was sited along that highway. I don’t know how people get in and out of their communities, it’s like a game of chicken. You can see cars backed up from the entrances, waiting for a clear shot to get out on the road. It’s also interesting to watch the guest worker moms pushing baby carriages along rutted, hilly strips of grass on their way over to the malls at 301 and Big Bend Road. Sidewalks? We don’t need no stinkin’ sidewalks!
Oh, the latest is that the county wants residents to vote for an additional penny sales tax for infrastructure projects. LMAO! The developers were supposed to pay for all that. I guess they had a little shortfall.
The developers won’t be paying for anything now. Crist thinks he can obtain their political and financial support for his senatorial campaign by giving them everything they want. He’s wrong, and those of us who live here will suffer for his ambition long after he’s died of skin cancer.
With that white hair, Crist looks like the albino monk in the DaVinci Code ?
Hey Palmetto,
Glad you’re back. I haven’t been back to that hellhole development for about 6 months, but the last time through - OMG!! Just when you think it couldn’t get worse….it does…
The section 8 explanation seems to fit….
I can’t believe anyone would buy in any of those Ruskin developments at ANY price…
Now on another front, we know 3 couples (and we don’t know that many folks) in the area that haven’t been making mortgage payments for the last 6+ months with no consequences (yet). Now are these geniuses saving up for their eventual moves ???
Heck no, they’re living the high life for now, spending every penny they can…..Sad. Sickening. What the heck has happened to this country???
Hey, dave, glad you’re still around. I’ve got a buddy who is doing a “strategic default” specifically because his house is underwater by 50%. He has pretty much plotted and planned it out, spoke to a number of lawyers before doing it. I’m really conflicted, I like the guy. He sold one house over on the other side of the state close to peak, made a good chunk of change, bought another house in Pinellas, put down a lot of money, then took it back out. I dunno what possessed him. Anyway, he’s stopped paying. Saving up the money to buy another one cheaper. He actually COULD pay his mortgage, just doesn’t want to.
Funny you say that. I spoke to a professional acquaintance the other day, and he told me the same thing — that he knew “many people” in this town, including one who lived in an $800,000 house, who had simply stopped paying their mortgages.
The St. Pete Times article contains an incredible statistic on Carriage Pointe: of the 382 houses there, there have been 256 foreclosures since 2006. There also is an aerial photo of the subdivision, which follows the depressing prevalent suburban-exurban Tampa construction plan of excavating a shallow artificial “lake,” filling it with water, and then ringing it with cheaply-made 2,500 square foot rectangular tract houses ten feet apart from each other. The place no doubt was advertised as “luxury lakefront living.”
Then there’s this account from a resident: “When houses are empty, she said, criminals strip them bare. Then again, she said, a renter once threw soiled underwear into her swimming pool, on a metal spike.” Palmetto is correct, that area used to be tomato fields. Rather than try to rescue this complete fiasco, we should make it tomato fields again.
“‘I’d give it a C-minus,’ he said of the plan. ‘It will provide some help to some homeowners, but the main beneficiaries will be lenders and servicers.’”
Sounds like a program that our current adminstration would consider a smashing success. Anything to help the lenders and servicers. Keep those bonuses flowing.
Wonder what grade Goldman would give the plan? Ayyy double-plusssss good.
Many south florida home sellers still asking too much:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/03/19/1536611/many-south-florida-home-sellers.html
“Many south Florida home sellers still asking too much”
We have the same problem in Long Island, N.Y.. It’s not even worth looking, as asking prices aren’t even within negotiating distance of reasonable.
The government programs are just giving sellers false hope that they’ll be able to snag a sucker. In some cases it worked, we had a flurry of sales last fall, before the first tax credit expiration. For the most part I see over priced houses sitting for years.
People are still asking way too much even in this area. Prices did start to go to pre-bubble pricing, $50,000 for one of those little concrete block shacks here and there and then Whammo! The hope and change mantra intruded and wishing prices returned. The system is so gamed by the banks and the goobermint.
What we need is a “tapdance” event. Picture a guy hanging on by his fingernails to a cliff. That’s what it looks like right now. Something needs to come along and do a tapdance on the fingers.
Nice imagery, LOL!
“We have the same problem in Long Island, N.Y.”
Not just in Long Island, the entire tri-state area. Every entry-level apartment in the city is overpriced by about 200K. It’s uncanny… The math becomes even worse at a higher end.
Hmm, I wonder how St. Joe Company is doing? They used to be a paper company with huge forest land holdings in N. Fla and Georgia (I think). Then the housing boom came a long with David Lereah and his wonderful, insightful books that helped pull so many out of poverty into wealth. It’s too bad Davids book didn’t explain how to keep that money that his readers borrowed without actually paying it back.
St. Joe turned into a real estate company with the avowed intent of paving over the whole of N. Florida. I think they got one development built. It was called Watercolor.
In 2006 the stock price was about 80 per share. Now it is 33 per share. I’ve heard that the St. Joe Company is moving their headquarters to Panama City Beach right next to their new airport. I’m pretty sure this will lift the economics of PCB somewhat, still PCB has no real jobs except for a military airbase and beach t-shirt shops.
I wonder if Florida is going to become the retirement mecca that is the base of the St. Joe Company’s business model?
If not, they are screwed. More bailouts.
Roidy
From what I read on Paul Craig Roberts’ blog a couple of weeks or so ago, St. Joe is locked in mortal combat with the oil interests, up in Tallahassee. If offshore drilling takes place only 10 miles off, St. Joe is scrude. As a result, they’re frantically lobbying the Florida legislature.
I believe St. Joe Co., is the biggest land owner in the country except for the Fed’s & States…
Fannie Mae would be the biggest land owner in the history of land owners - and getting bigger every day. Went right past Too Big To Fail on the scale and is now Too Big To Mention In Public.
Bare dirt is what I mean…
For those of you who thought Eddie was real:
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_14769113
I don’t doubt this stuff. I remember the HBB getting deluged with zillow advocates when that opened up.
‘In 2007, Whole Foods chief executive John Mackey was outed for using an online alias to praise his company, slam competitors and even compliment his own haircut.’
He did have a really cool haircut though.
Well, that has to be kinda embarrassing. Why would he think anyone gives a damn about his haircut? Did he slam the competing CEOs doo?
“that has to be kinda embarrassing”
You’d think so, wouldn’t you? But embarassment is a commodity in short supply for the last decade or so. CEOs and politicos don’t know the meaning of the word. I suspect it also has a lot to do with those mental drugs, which pretty much block unpleasant emotions like guilt, shame, etc.
I’d love to see how that post would go on the HBB:
‘Houses are so over-priced in my nab. I can’t stand those UHS. The muffins stink at the open houses. Speaking of muffins, I got a great deal at Whole Foods yesterday on some baked goods. Much better than Henrys. And did you see the WF CEOs haircut? Fantastic! Much better than that cheap bastard at Henrys.’
ROTFLMAO!
“Much better than Henrys.”
Speaking thereof, I paid $25 in ‘worthless fiatscos’ there last night for a cornucopia of delectable fruit. Highly recommended outlet for those interested in unloading their worthless paper for something of value…
I run into scores of witless fools on a daily basis who are willing to accept in trade worthless fiats for things of true value.
It’s truly amazing! Most stores even have cash-register thingys specifically designed to accept and dispense fiats! There seems to be no end to the stupidity.
Well, I would have to see this for myself. A good haircut matches the basic shape of the head. There are three basic shapes. The egg-shaped, the basketball-shaped, and the block-headed.
I can spot the RE people a mile away. They tend to be the block-headed type.
Then there would be those with a hole in their heads. That would be our state’s entire professional economist class, all of whom see a recovery in the cards, even though there are no people, industries, trends or technologies with which to lead it. Rarely have our leaders been advised by a group of people so constrained in their imaginations. They’re not just inside the box, they’re inside the smallest figurine of one of those Russian nested sets.
Just looking at Bernokio’s prognostications (2009 was “green shoots,” 2010 was “nascent recovery,” 2011 will be heaven knows what), along with the predictions of the “economics” profession, I have concluded that the average economist in the US has the IQ of a flea or a gnat.
Obama and the rest of the Dem kooks knocked Whole Foods. I love Whole Foods. nuf said
I always thought Eddie was a paid PR (Prostitutional Retard) hack; still do.
It never occurred to me until you said it back then, but I think more than ever that you were right.
I think PB just might be right also about Eddie . A long time ago I heard that special interest groups would have computer generated
statements by computers put into blogs .
“Richard Gehring can give you 710,000 reasons why Pasco County has to change the way it handles growth.
About 471,000 people now call Pasco home, Pasco’s growth management administrator recently said about the latest U.S. Census projections.
Now imagine 710,000 Pasco neighbors rubbing elbows several decades from now. That is the projected population numbers Gehring cited during his presentation at CONA, the Council of Neighborhood Associations.
“We can’t build 20 lanes” on Pasco highways to handle such growth, he said.
“We’re rethinking ourselves” as a county and a region, Gehring remarked.”
He’d better do some serious re-stinking, on account of the sub-strate in Pasco County is like swiss cheese. Sinkhole city! Pasco’s future depends on non-growth.
“said David Hall, president of First Community Bank of Southwest Florida in Fort Myers. ‘Banks don’t want to take back homes. On the other hand, customers have to be making their payments. If the government helps them make their payment, it would be wonderful.”
Apparently bankers think the government is there just to keep the banks swimming……..
“Apparently bankers think the government is there just to keep the banks swimming……..”
Not an unreasonable assumption, given the events of the past couple of years.
I just hope Uncle sells off that Citi stock and gets while the gettin’s good.
Who would be stupid enough to buy it? Haha! Oh, yeah, WE (the taxpayers) are.
Mr.Phoenix, when you’re sick of Palmetto bugs and headless Santeria chickens come on out to Arizona and we’ll give you work defending Mexican drug lords and the safe houses they fail to make the mortgage payments on. We have a Mr.Orlando standing by ready to help the Sunshine State losers, excuse me, I mean mortgage holders in default.
azconserv1.wordpress.com
This is not satire….truly.
The Obama administration announced it is cracking down on lenders who insist on being repaid for mortgage loans. Lenders will now be required to postpone or cancel repayment if the mortgage holder is unemployed.
“The idea that a debt must be repaid no matter what is simplistic and outdated,” said US Secretary of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) Shaun Donovan. “It assumes that a person can and should be permitted to make his or her own financial decisions without reference to social conditions or the nation’s collective well-being.”
Donovan defended the government’s intervention as “necessary to protect social justice. Just because a person can’t afford to make payments should mean that he can’t own a home. His lack of funds doesn’t negate his need. All we are doing is trying to inject this need into the calculus that determines who shall live where.”
To help “spread the burdens of home ownership more equitably,” Administration plans call for a surcharge to be placed on mortgage payments that are not delinquent. These charges would then be transferred to cover the shortages of mortgages that have gone into default due to a home owner’s unemployment.”
“This will allow for those with the means to help defray the costs of those without the means,” Donovan said. “It’s the strong lending a hand to those weaker than he. It’s brother helping brother. It’s a new paradigm for the new America the President has promised.”
Well, just a bit of satire and sarcasm…
“The idea that a debt must be repaid no matter what is simplistic and outdated,” said US Secretary of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) Shaun Donovan.
Try that logic with the IRS - see how far it gets you.
I purchased a home at the peak of the housing market at $220,000, and my home is worth $100,000
No, you paid $220K for a home that was really worth $80K.
Oops!
“‘In general, I am supporting of any action against people losing their homes,’ said David Hall, president of First Community Bank of Southwest Florida in Fort Myers.”
Just once I would love to hear someone in the MSM ask to understand how exactly do these homes “belong” to these people? Why, just because they happen to live there now??
I’m sorry, but in the 8 years that I owned and wrote a mortgage check every month, I never saw the house as mine. Maybe it’s just me, but something about opening up a mortgage statement doesn’t do much for that “free & clear” feeling.
Wonder what would happen to our markets if Lloyd Blankfein suddenly went missing? or Jamie D, or Pandit, or Geithner…
RABAT, Morocco (AP) — Rescue workers were scouring an artificial Moroccan lake Saturday in search of the head of Abu Dhabi’s sovereign wealth fund — the world’s largest — who went missing after his glider crashed.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/UAE-head-of-largest-sovereign-apf-2862213567.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=aa6837d48278af23b8d54eedb3c236fe&ccode=1
Not to worry — investment bankers are a dime a dozen.
They’re only looking for his “head”??
What about the rest of his body??
“Homeowner Kourtney Ingrati said she became aware of the issue in December 2007 when two Carriage Pointe teenagers — who lived in a Section 8 house — were charged with shooting two other teens after school. Ingrati poured her outrage into a letter to the authority. ‘I purchased a home at the peak of the housing market at $220,000, and my home is worth $100,000, along with anyone else who purchased homes during that time,’ she wrote. ‘How do you expect our community to bounce back if the residents you are placing here barely make minimum wage?’”
Her neighbors’ kids shot some other kids, and all she cares about is living near minimum wage workers? Doesn’t she realize how the comps will get screwed up if the former investors’ haven fills up with felons?
A little OT, but did anyone catch the Crist-Rubio debate on Fox this AM? Interesting. My impression was that Crist carried it. In some ways, I like Rubio. For example, his stance on taxes and states’ rights. At one time he floated a proposal to hike the sales tax to 10% and eliminate the property tax. I approved of that. He also stuck it to a smarmy local PBS interviewer who bloviated about how people would buy everything on line if that happened and Rubio (who is a lawyer) grinned broadly and asked if everyone knew they were supposed to pay sales tax to the state on anything they purchased on line. That shut up Mr. Smarmy. But it got me interested in Rubio.
However, when it comes to immigration, Rubio’s stance in the past has been abysmal and I suspect that if he makes the Senate, he’ll vote with his tribe, rather than as an American. Blood is thicker than water. I was shocked, I tell you, shocked, to hear him come out against amnesty this morning and I don’t really buy it. Truth is, I think the pubs are worse on the issue of illegal immigration than the dems. The pubs had ample chance to correct the situation over the years and they never did. In fact, on their watch, it got worse, to the point of a cataclysm like 9/11. Not to mention the huge marches of 2006, where the pubs stood back and let it happen. I think they’ve just woken up to the fact that by pretending to be against amnesty, they might make some inroads to the base. Fageddaboudit. Crist or Rubio, either way we’re scrude on immigration. Both are soft on it.
Anyway, I digress. Rubio came off about as animated and flexible as a slab of granite. Even worse was his criticism of Crist for embracing Obama in a photo op and for taking stimulus money for Florida. Say what??? These two points actually qualify Crist as a Senate candidate. First of all, the president comes to Florida, I don’t care what party he belongs to and what party the gov belongs to, you get your butt to wherever he is and be gracious. You don’t have to bend over for him, just be gracious and welcoming like one head of state to another. Secondly, in taking stimulus money, what’s he supposed to do? Turn it down and let the state suck hind tit? I don’t think so. Let’s be pragmatic. Truth is, in taking the stimulus money, Crist was looking out for Florida’s interests and I hope he’ll do the same if he gets into the Senate. I make fun of Crist and call him “Good Time Charlie”, but he hasn’t been half bad as a governor during a crisis. It could be a whole lot worse here, it really could. Actually, I wish he’d forget the Senate race and stay governor. He sucked as Attorney General of the state, but as governor, he’s actually a pretty good manager and executive.
Finally, there’s the spectre of Jeb Bush floating in the background. Crist DID kind of ride Jeb’s coattails to governor. I don’t think Jeb liked it, but he more or less tolerated it and gave his blessing. However, in this fight, Rubio is Jeb’s man. Jeb is mum at the moment and commentators say he won’t get involved unless it looks like Rubio needs his help. I’m hoping Jeb just keeps his mouth shut. He was gov while Florida spun out of control and had some involvement with Lehman and Florida’s finances. If he comes out for Rubio, I’m voting for Crist, just to be ornery. Some say Charlie should run as an independent if he doesn’t get the pub nomination. If I were him, I would definitely do that. He’d win, too. And he’d probably work to keep the oil drilling platforms out of shoreline wading pools.
Rant off.
“Affordable” housing and Section 8 landlords present odd conundrums. Out in San Diego, developers are required to make 10% or 15% or so of units “affordable” which means they offer them at 30% of gross income to people who make 80% of the median income, etc. (so if you have 2 people and earn $58,000 a year, you can automatically get a 3 bedroom apartment for around $1450).
What’s happening in “luxury” apartment blocks (some of which used to be condos, and have been converted to apartments because the condos never sold) is that the “affordable” units are sitting unrented because no qualified low-income borrowers apply. The only requirement is that income is double the rent! It’s a strange situation, to say the least.
“‘In general, I am supporting of any action against people losing their homes,’ said David Hall, president of First Community Bank of Southwest Florida in Fort Myers. ‘Banks don’t want to take back homes. On the other hand, customers have to be making their payments. If the government helps them make their payment, it would be wonderful.’”
Gosh, yes, that would be wonderful, mister. Then you can cash out and head to France/Med. Coast and read about the collapse in the U.S. each morning as you get your croissant with your Herald.