Bits Bucket For May 8, 2010
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The Housing Bubble
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
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Name:Ben Jones
Location:Northern Arizona, United States
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Wow, rather early, yes?
Not if you have pets that like to be fed, they tend to wake you at the normal workweek time to be fed and let out. Dang furballs.
Or if you have an active s_x-life.
PS :- That does not involve pets.
I take it you play the saxophone?
Skin flute.
Purr, purr, purr
What’s new Pussycat, whaaat whaaat?
“What’s new Pussycat…”
Whoa-oh-oh-oh-oh–oh…
Atlantic No Barrier to Contagion
As the price tag for the EU/IMF bailout for Greece has steadily grown over the past several months and contagion within the euro-zone has commenced, US investors are beginning to realize that the widening European sovereign debt crisis may indeed have some significant implication on our side of the pond.
While Europe scrambles to quarantine Greece with a proposed $150 bln bailout, the market remains extremely skeptical of the odds of success.
Greece is indeed just the tip of the iceberg, and whether the end-game is triggered by a sovereign default or a bailout — the die is cast at that point — there will either be a series of defaults or a series of bailouts within the Eurozone.
The outcome for either scenario could be equally dire. In fact, whether it’s default or bailout, the potential is for an economic crisis far larger in scope than the 2008 US banking crisis.
The so-called PIIGS nations (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain) have about $600 bln in funding needs this year alone according to Bank of America. Total financing needs for the PIIGS over the course of the next three years is nearly $2 trillion. The total debt of these countries is a staggering $3.9 trillion, according to a recent New York Times article.
http://www.usagold.com/amk/usagoldmarketupdate050610.html
Ireland is half the size of Mumbai, and they borrowd $840 billion.
That’s $220K for every man, woman and child.
If Greece is Bear Stearns then Ireland is Lehman Brothers. Good luck getting that money back!
That’s a lot of Riverdance tickets they’ll have to sell.
LOL
Penny-a-pint beer tax and they’ll pay it all back in a year.
How many bottles of Bushmills would each American have to purchase to retire the debt?
I’ll do my part.
“That’s $220K for every man, woman and child.”
I like that way of looking at debt. By contrast, taking CA’s $20 bn budget gap at face value, throwing in the wild-arsed guess of $500 bn in pension deficit for good measure, and assuming the 2009 Census estimate of 37m population is reasonable, that gets you to
$520,000,000,000/37,000,000 = $520,000/37 = $14,054 per every CA man, woman and child, which looks pretty manageable compared to your Irish per capita debtstimate.
Yeah, well, it’s called “long division” and I was the biggest proponent of that metric, as you may recall.
BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
–John McCarthy–
“Those who rely on data and formulae to inform them of every subsequent action is essentially a feckless politician.”
eudemon - 2010
“He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.”
This is why anyone getting a four-year university degree should have the first year calculus as a minimum requirement to graduate from any college program. It’s all about critical thinking.
Oh dang — I forgot to include mortgage debt in my calculation. I don’t have time at the moment to do the ole’ back-of-the-envelope calculation right now; maybe later. I remember throwing a few out a couple of years ago (2006ish), something along these lines:
- CA pop = 37m
- Homeowner share = 69 pct(?)
- Occupants per home = 3ish
- Average value of CA home (circa 2006) = $500Kish
- Approximate number of homes in CA =
0.69*37m/3 = 8.5m
- Approximate aggregate home equity loss in the event of a 30 pct drop in home values =
0.3*$500,000*8.5m = $1,275,000,000,000 ($1.275 trillion).
I think my assumptions are reasonably conservative here, no?
Not sure how much of $1.275 trillion represents mortgage debt, but if you spread those home equity losses over 37million people, you get
$1,275,000,000,000/37,000,000 = $1,275,000/37 = $34,460 per capita — ’tis a mere flesh wound!
Not uniformly distributed. The renters can just move (if needed.)
You need an adjustment factor somewhere in there.
“Not uniformly distributed.”
That thought certainly crossed my mind. It would be fun to look at a few of the high-end outliers a bit more closely (e.g. Nicholas Cage…).
Nicolas Cage: One-Man Real Estate Bubble
Cage bought this Tudor mansion in Bel Air, Calif., in 1998 from Tom Jones for $6.47 million. The house, which Dean Martin owned before Jones, has six fireplaces, including one in a bathroom. Cage put it on the market at $30 million a year ago, but recently cut the price to $17.5 million. It is reportedly under contract.
Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/around-town/real-estate/Nicolas-Cage-Realestate-Bubble-79058197.html#ixzz0nMruM0tB
“$30 million a year ago, but recently cut the price to $17.5 million.”
Does anyone else have stories about $12.5 million haircuts to the list price? Please share if you do…
Ireland will go back to its traditional export- its people.
Our country needs bartenders and au pairs, Ireland. Send ‘em on back.
They better not go to Arizona
Maybe the Irish ex-pats can all resettle to a place where people are a leading import, such as CA?
At least the Irish speak English, well sort of…
$14,054. I think Amnesty proponents in CA just arrived at the price of admission.
How many are illegal who only get counted in the census, emergency room and the classroom. But when its time to pay up they disappear.
From wmbz’s link:
The so-called PIIGS nations (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain) have about $600 bln in funding needs this year alone according to Bank of America. Total financing needs for the PIIGS over the course of the next three years is nearly $2 trillion. The total debt of these countries is a staggering $3.9 trillion, according to a recent New York Times article.
————————–
Aw, shucks! Is that all? Heck, our Fed just “printed up” ~$1.5 trillion last year to buy mortgages and Treasuries. Surely they can print up a few hundred billion for the poor Europeans! I don’t see what all the fuss is about.
/sarcasm
Housing peaking in summer/fall of 2005 and the crash began. And yet, here we are, five years later, still no bottom because of all the manipulation. However, doomsayers have been predicting this 2010 summer debacle which seems to be getting into gear. Hmmm, what say you, HBBers? Is this the summer of our discontent?
Just as a side note, as cold as it was this winter here in Florida, the weather right now is like July/August. Whew, that’s some heat.
Wonder how watching the market meltdown and Greece meltup will affect the psyche of home buyers? This on the heels of expiring credits to buy houses.
The elections in the UK could end up being the next domino in Europe. We had our hung election in 2000 at a time of great prosperty, UK has it at a bad time.
Lets see if Spain and Portgual don’t win the FIFA world cup the population will be primed to riot. I intend to watch the world cup and see how that goes.
Dominos:
1) UK election causes stocks to decline in UK maybe Europe & US
2) PIIgS G has been deflated others still waiting for Germans to pronounce sentence.
3) China slowdown causes riots in Beijing.
Not much that I can see. Home Despot is full of folks at the paint counter and flooring counter, and lots of people buying annual flowers. Not exactly foreclosure heaven. Parking lots still as far as the eye can see. Bed Bath and Beyond is hiring. ISTM that people were saving up in case they were laid off. Now they think their jobs are safe, so Woo-Hoo! It’s off to the mall!
So much for the frugal lifestyle. The only thing man learns from history is that man doesn’t learn from history.
Home Depot is still in business?
I genuinely think that the people who spend their weekends at Home Despot are demented.
Why for the love of everything that is precious?
Aren’t there a zillion better things to do - sports, music, food, art, film, hobbies?
For some people, fixing up the house is a hobby.
Everytime I go to home depot the parking lot is full of people looking for work.I try to avoid eye contact as I drive in.They will swarm your car if you give them any attention.
People still seem to have money to spend.The mall is always packed from what I see.I guess people quit paying on the mortgage so they have money to spend now.
Gas in sacramento seems to be around 3- 3.19 right now.
Yep.
Remember when gas prices were higher and people suddenly wanted smaller vehicles and SUV’s were hard to sell? As soon as gas prices dropped - bam! - people went back to being as wasteful as possible. The average person learned nothing and will probably start whining again when gas prices rise higher and eventually stay that way.
Same idea with the Bubble; the moment people think that they won’t be laid off next month, it’s off to buy the biggest house they can’t afford. It gets very frustrating being a responsible person in a world that encourages irresponsible behavior at all costs.
Same idea with the Bubble; the moment people think that they won’t be laid off next month, it’s off to buy the biggest house they can’t afford.
I’m hoping that, if nothing else, the bloated McMansion that oozes out to the property line will become passe.
People think they need a big vehicle for the few times a year they actually need one for hauling big stuff.
I was amazed that we could fit a 6 foot ladder in our Hyundai Accent - half of back seat folded down, front passenger seat folded forward, one of us in other half of back seat - but we got the trunk closed!
yeah, I used to drive a CRX for years, I’d paint on the side. On a cleaver day I could get a 6 foot ladder in there.
Same idea with the Bubble; the moment people think that they won’t be laid off next month, it’s off to buy the biggest house they can’t afford. It gets very frustrating being a responsible person in a world that encourages irresponsible behavior at all costs.
—————-
We share your frustration, Pondering.
We just have to remember that many of us were predicting a slow grind down with many attempts at “fixing” the declining prices/poor economy.
The PTB has chosen to take the long, hard way out instead of the much shorter way out. It’s not like we didn’t try to warn them.
Unfortunately, this will take time.
4) Israel finally pulls the trigger on Iran….
Game over…
“The elections in the UK could end up being the next domino in Europe. We had our hung election in 2000 at a time of great prosperty, UK has it at a bad time.”
It wasn’t that great here in late 2000. The tech bubble had just burst and there was a great sense of urgency to decide that election. We rushed and the results were catastrophic. The UK might do well to take some time in determining who will govern. However, no matter what they do, it’s hard to believe any of their current UK options are worse than the U.S. result in 2000.
Rained like cats n’ dogs in Wisconsin. Temps down into the 30’s last night.
“… But girl don’t they warn ya
It pours, man it pours”
At least it wasn’t snow !!
It is snow here, north of Green Bay. Groan. 34 degrees.
We’re getting our snow tomorrow for Mother’s Day. After an 80+ day last Monday.
“We’re getting our snow tomorrow for Mother’s Day”
Ooops tomorrow ?…
“Make way, dead man walking.”
Uh-oh, Mikey. Best get out to your quickie mart and get youself a Mother’s Day card, at the least.
Global warming, file your complaint with Al Gore.
68 degrees in shorts and a tee-shirt running with my GS on the beach yesterday in Pismo…
You’re running with Goldman Sachs now?
Got any pics to prove it?
Nobody wants to see Lloyd Blankfein running in shorts, not even his wife.
(I had a sudden flashback to the pictures of a pudgy Bill Clinton jogging with his shorts riding up. Gah!)
German Short Hair…
Hey mikey,
Didn’t you know seems it never rains in Southern California Seems I’ve often heard that kind of talk before
It never rains in California
But girl, don’t they warn ya
It pours man it pours.
“Hmmm, what say you, HBBers? Is this the summer of our discontent?”
Move on into the fall and it may be the election of our discontent.
Here’s an excerpt from yesterday’s WSJ Opinion section (page A17):
“Washington’s eletes are quietly preparing a post-election fiscal compromise that will fund much of President Barrack Obama’s domestic spending agenda with huge tax increases. They aim to create a value-added tax and will argue that there is no alternative even though doing so will leave the United States resembling the stagnant, bureaucratic nations of Western Europe.”
Now that the Conservatives have won a majority in the UK, they will call in the IMF which will then audit the situation and announce brutal austerity and cost-cutting measures to save the nation from ruin. The Conservatives can then scrap all their unrealistic campaign promises and say, “But we have to follow the IMF dictates to get access to global credit markets!”
In the smoky back rooms where Barry and the Fed are meeting their Plutocrat globalist masters, I wouldn’t doubt that a similar strategy is being crafted.
Exactly.
Once the elections are over, they will raise taxes to the sky on everything to pay for their worthless social engineering, their Bailouts, and their vote-buying bribes. And while we intelligent few will cry out in rage, most of the people will dumbly accept the crushing cost of the New World Order if it offers them a slim hope of higher housing prices or some other drek that they’ve been told to believe is good for the nation.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t see a VAT in the near to mid term future. The scaremongering on that is about as silly as the left’s dire predictions of a military draft. Neither is likely any time soon. Tax increases, sure we might see ‘em, especially of the “current law” sunset type. But an entire new tax with the bureaucracy to enforce it? I really don’t think so.
Too much manipulation here (OC CA) still. The 699 Million dollar gift from the Federal Government to CA and how they have chosen to use it is going to hold things back a while longer yet.
Lot’s of sheople still living for free in their Box’s. The deteriation on these properties is not good. As the response from the OTCC said earlier in the week, “the Banks first loss is their best loss”. The Banksters haven’t figured that out yet here. Probablly because the loss amount is 100K to 500K on the structures.
If they realize the loss’s in areas like this they are insolvent.
Starter Homes still 400K-500K range in OC @ 9 times median income. Better than the 14 times it was a couple years ago, still crazy in my book.
The banksters still have the Fed’s printing press to make good their losses. And the American Enterprise Institute is working with the Fed and their Republicrat accomplices to dump those liabilities onto the taxpayers.
Ok, So help me out here. Are you saying that the Banks losses are being transferred to Fannie and the Fed is printing money to prop up Fannie? Or something else? If the Banks are still holding mortgage paper that is not performing and they have yet to actually foreclose and take possession, or even if they have taken possession but are dragging their feet on liquidating the assets how are the assets classified? They should not be “losses” until there is an exchange or transfer that marks the asset to some value. This is what I understand “mark to market” to mean. And I can see why lenders of all stripes are reluctant to mark to market because as OCBear said, if they realize in areas like this they are insolvent. It is my opinion that the Gov and the REIC are doing everything they can to prop up the “values” for as long as they can with the hope that the market will come back and thus erase or minimize the asset devaluation.
While there are some signs that the economy has some underlying strength in the US, I believe that the toxicity of the housing bubble has spread throughout the global economy and severely damaged the system overall to the point that printing money and wishing for a recovery simply will not work because wishing will not make it so.
Now to your second statement, “And the American Enterprise Institute is working with the Fed and their Republicrat accomplices to dump those liabilities onto the taxpayers.” Is this just the “socializing the risk” scenario we have covered here before in the form of increased taxation of those left who actually earn a living or does the addition of a VAT expand the sucking to include, HEAVEN FORBID, those who are on the dole too? Or are there even more vampiric measures intended to suck the very life blood out of the productive elements of society being contemplated?
How about a “You F*CKED UP TAX”? A one time heavy levy on anyone or thing that profited from anything to do with housing finance. From the clueless greedy buyers and “my house is an ATM” folks, the 6% of as high as we can push it Used Home Sellers, Lenders of any ilk, Hedgies and Street gremlins who created and traded MBS, CDO and other fine intruments of Mass Destruction, all the way to the Rangles and Dodds who got special deals. How bout a one time hit of oh say 80% of any profit you made from anything housing? Hell go 100% if it is needed to offset the cost of the mistake.
I am kind of kidding here, because of the unintended consequences inherent in such a scheme, but also because I do not believe it is the gubmints to artificially manipulate profit and loss. But this would be more just than making everyone except the anal cavities that caused the problem pay for it. Oh, Silly me, seeking justice from the gubmint when all we seem to get these days is reamed.
Just more fingers in the dike.
Yep, those in charge will do ANYTHING to keep the game going, right up until they can’t. It is sad when we can all sit here and safely assume that the stupidist and greediest choices will always be what The Powers That Be go with, and be right every time. In many ways, the nation is still in the Denial phase of the Bubble, thinking that with just a bit more Stimulus, we can bring back the Good Ol’ Days.
Housing did not peak in 2005. You’re way too early. The first financial bomb didn’t drop until early 2007 and housing didn’t really begin to stagnate until later that year.
The real effects weren’t felt until 2008.
Out here in San Diego (which was pretty much leading the bubble, both up and down), the bubble peaked in ~Q3 2005. If one was watching carefully, it was obvious that the “mania” portion really slowed down in the summer of 2004.
The bubble rolled from the most desirable to the least desirable, and back again. It’s just that the PTB stopped the bubble decline right as it was about to hit the more desirable areas. It seems to be a pretty consistent pattern across the U.S.
Even the computer which caused the meltdown are asleeep.
I hope they catch that computer. Is there an amber alert out? Do they have a description of what the offending machine looks like so we can help apprehend this criminal. Perhaps some video surveillence footage?
Wasn’t a computer. Was a “fat finger”.
“Wasn’t a computer. Was a “fat finger”.”
lol…Thank God old “fat finger” wasn’t playing with the missile launch control device on one of our Trident Nuclear Submarines.
Good heavens! What harm might have been done if they hit the “zillion” key instead?
That was close.
And that would be worse how mikey?
Twas the ‘finger of God’ (a term Midwesterners used to apply to twisters that ravaged their communities…).
Caused by hemlines that crept too high?
“digital” terrorism…
I like your name
All I can say is that was one “FAT FINGER”
————.—/´ ¯/)
————–/—-/
————./—-/
———–/´¯/’¯’ /´¯`•_
———-/’/–/—-/—–/¨¯\
——–(’(———- ¯~/’–’)
———\————-’—–/
———-’\'————_-•´
————\———–(
Notice I refrained from using the middle finger. Not sure if that would have made it past the censors
That’s a pretty fat finger if it was able to jump over the “N” key to input a “b’ instead of an “m” …
My thoughts exactly oc
Shall we say “Stop orders” instead?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aXqj4aOeeQ6A&pos=3
The SEC remains clueless as to what caused the 1000-point crash, yet they’re already considering new “rules” to prevent cascading selloffs. God forbid they touch the highspeed automated trading scams that are enriching their Wall Street allies.
Oh, I wouldn’t say it was “God” forbidding it…
http://moneynews.com/RuddyMN/christopher-ruddy-crash-predicted/2010/05/07/id/358177
This is a more rational explanation than the mythical “computer glitch” for why markets crashed so hard on Thursday. It won’t be the last time.
Minor glitch here, nothing to see, move along…
I have some economic questions.
The new employment numbers sound OK, even good, but I keep hearing that they are largely attributed to private hiring in manufacturing and that the manufacturing is related to exports. Well, exports where? Because if the Euro is heading for the basement and the Euro crisis helps the Chinese real estate bubble to pop, I don’t necessarily see export related manufacturing hiring as sustainable. Not unless it was born in big technology investments making US manufacturing hugely more efficient, and that would have required capital and since the banks weren’t lending, well, I’m sceptical.
How closely correlated are the people who re-entered the workforce (putting the unemployment rate up to 9.9%) and the number of people who lost unemployment insurance recently? ‘Cause I understand the meme that when hiring picks up more people start looking because they see the possibility of a search actually working but I don’t see how you prove that is what brought people back. It sounds to me more like the only positive spin you could put on it.
This just a confirmation…the Greek bailout is really a bailout of the French and German banks that own vast amounts of Greek sovereign debt, right? I actually admire this way of doing it. Much more transparent than letting the European Central Bank do it. And legislatures have to be involved which is nice. And all the banks that bought the debt get the same treatment, not just the too big to fail ones. And the people who did the borrowing (the citizens of Greece) are going to have some responsibility to pay for it. However, it is just a bank bailout, right? So do those banks not own Portugese, Spanish, Irish and Italian sovreign debt? Who owns that debt?
“Who owns that debt?”
Who’s your debty?
What is made here that gets exported? Lies? Infomercials? Sewage?
Government debt?
Now let me get this straight as I’m not a certainly not a Harvard economist.
We have thousands of US Corporations that really don’t produce a damned thing but debt for me and profits for their CEO’s.
Nooooo…Wait!!
…mikey stands late on the station platform crying as the gravy train pulls out!
Well..movies. Sort of. Even movies are multinational collaborations. Check the credits on Avatar. They used every employee of every major SFX house. The Star Wars folks and LotR folks had to work together. It’s too bad that James Cameron forgot to hire a writer…
Manufacturing can’t be based on hopes that your currency will always be valued below foreign currencies. Sure, a falling euro means EU goods are cheaper to import, and our exports are more expensive, but such shifts are only temporary. Witness how many people in here were saying the euro was a safe haven not too long ago…
If manufacturers are hiring it’s because they need more labor, now and for the foreseeable future. They get that notion from customers, not the forex.
The new employment numbers are shite.
The U3 is still around 10% and the U6 at 17%. If you think that’s good, I’ve got a house I’d love to sell you.
“How closely correlated are the people who re-entered the workforce (putting the unemployment rate up to 9.9%)”
Does NO ONE comprehend the double-speak of this insanity? You CANNOT have an increase in employment and simultaneous increase in unemployment. HELLO! It is either one or the other.
You can if you have an increase in “jobs” but an increase in “% still unemployed.”
But my question is, if those discourage workers are re-entering the workforce, how does the BLS know? They aren’t re-applying for unemployment.
Can you not see this is doublethink?
Dear god, no wonder we’re in trouble.
The answer is: they don’t know. They CAN’T know.
Problem number 2 with this priceless example of yellow, doublethink journalism.
..if those discourage workers are re-entering the workforce, how does the BLS know?..
The Current Population Survey (CPS) is a monthly survey of households conducted by the Bureau of Census for the Bureau of Labor Statistics. It provides a comprehensive body of data on the labor force, employment, unemployment, persons not in the labor force, hours of work, earnings, and other demographic and labor force characteristics.
So they say. I’ve never met anybody who has ever taken part in that survey. Ever. And I’ve met thousands of people.
And then there’s the volatility. During relatively stable times, an extrapolation would suffice. These are not stable times.
Comprehensive my a$z.
You ever meet anyone who’s been to the moon?
The survey is based on 12 people?
Since the financial markets are Global ,it could be anybody that might be the investor in the debt I would assume . Germany got into CDO’s heavy
from what I understand .
Polly- from the NYTimes:
” French banks hold $75.4 billion worth of Greek debt, followed by Swiss institutions, at $64 billion, according to the Bank for International Settlements. German banks’ exposure stands at $43.2 billion.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/07/alan-grayson-def-comedy-j_n_568453.html
Rep. Alan Grayson (co-sponsor with Ron Paul of bill to audit the Fed) mocks the Fed and congratulates the American sheeple on their new “ownership” of the Red Roof Inn Oh yes, the RRI was part of over a trillion dollars “worth” of toxic assets assumed by the Federal Reserve (and soon to be unloaded unto the dullard taxpayers whose Republicrat “representatives” voted for this bailout travesty). The neo-con American Enterprise Institute, who helped sell the invasion of Iraq, is already hard at work on drafting a mechanism to have taxpayers “invest” in trillions worth of toxic assets the banksters want off their books.
‘Oh yes, the RRI was part of over a trillion dollars “worth” of toxic assets assumed by the Federal Reserve (and soon to be unloaded unto the dullard taxpayers whose Republicrat “representatives” voted for this bailout travesty).’
I assume the details of this and other Fed bailout moves will be brought to light in the forthcoming Congressional audit?
Hehehe… good one!
I’m still waiting for the seizure of retirement accounts along with forced investment into Fed-sold toxic assets… after all, some people out there still have money aside from the plutocrats, and that is not acceptable?!
Personally, I’ll be delighted when the herd creatures who have been blindly voting for Repubicrat Tweedle Dees and Tweedle Dums over the years get their heads handed to them in the markets, get taxed out the wazoo, and see the dollar crash wipe out their savings and retirement accounts. It will be exactly what they have coming to them for their bovine complacency in voting in Wall Street lapdogs who are aiding and abetting the biggest rip-off in US history.
That just happened last year and yet they still buy into the double-speak that you can have a simultaneous increase in employment AND unemployment and all the other propaganda by the PTB.
This ain’t over and it WILL end badly.
Looks like some of the Tea Party dupes are starting to see what a fraud their Joan of Arc, Sarah Palin, really is. You’d think the fact that she was RINO McCain’s running mate would have clued them in to the fact that she is devoid of true conservative principles as well as brain synapses. Now she has endorsed Carly Fiorina, whose disastrous leadership of HP and outsourcing of tens of thousands of American jobs to Asia is a matter of record. Naturally she represents the sleazy, corrupt GOP Establishment and would waste little time, once in office, in assisting her predatory capitalist cronies of looting what remains of the productive sector in California.
To any Tea Party sympathizers in here, open your eyes. Sarah Palin is a vapid fraud and a judas goat for the corporate interests who are stealing you blind. Just like Freedomworks, a stalking horse for the worst elements on Wall Street that is manipulating you into being their Useful Idiots.
Q&A with Judson Phillips, founder of Tea Party Nation on washingtonpost.com:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/05/05/DI2010050502168.html
Hmmph. Very unimpressive. His responses were almost juvenile. So it’s not just Sarah.
If she were President, she would have quit by now.
As for Fiorina, I still can’t get past the Demon Sheep web-ad.
Sarah “The Barracuda”:
“Now listen here Pilgrim…” $$$$ Cha Ching
“But, but, but,…” $$$$ Cha Ching
“Aren’t ya all like really really ANGRY?”…” $$$$ Cha Chingg
“Why they’re just spending spending, spending…” $$$$ Cha Ching
“You betcha, by golly!…” $$$$ Cha Ching
“Hello, Savannah, Toledo, Dallas, Memphis, Sioux Falls,…” $$$$ Cha Ching
Slogan-spouting for cash. A good gig while it lasts. The Tea Party movement lost all credibility and respect once it rallied around Sarah Palin.
Yep…Spot on Sammy…
I think the campaign to herd you little sheeple away from something outside the two main parties has worked.
So, a tea party member is either a racist or a Palin supporter? Or they are all just stupid?
Nice smear job hacks.
Sammy, you don’t like the direction things are going you might want to get involved. Forget the losers like highway and scdave or oxide.
Nothing but silence on Barry protecting the fed
James,
You must be new here. I am involved. I’m supporting the “good guys” like Ron and Rand Paul in word and deed. And with funding which is needed most of all.
Are you accusing me of being “silent” on Barry protecting the Fed? It’s more like the Fed is the unelected and unaccountable power behind the throne. They don’t answer to anyone, least of all dwarfs like Chris Dodd and Congressional banking committees.
To any Tea Party sympathizers in here, open your eyes. Sarah Palin is a vapid fraud and a judas goat for the corporate interests who are stealing you blind. Just like Freedomworks, a stalking horse for the worst elements on Wall Street that is manipulating you into being their Useful Idiots.
I couldn’t agree more.
Now if we could get the Obamanation followers to open their eyes, to the Limousine Liberal Fed friend we could really get somewhere. As long as Larry Summers is tellin Barry what the colors of the Rainbow are, were not heading in a good direction.
If Congress push’s through a VAT next year, look for the honest Business to become a true rarity. That is the path to Greece, where if you don’t cheat, you don’t survive. Were almost there now, it would just be the last nail.
I’m having more and more conversations with people who I wouldn’t have dared to bring the subject of the economy up with years ago. People are starting to allow themselves to see what our government (both sides) have done to them. It still feels so odd to me to have face to face commentary which parallels what we were discussing here on the blog just a few years back. People are waking up. It’s just that they’re scared and have no idea what move if any they are supposed to make next. Once they know you get it, its amazing what they spill. It makes you wonder how many of them were paying attention all along.
People are starting to allow themselves to see what our government (both sides) have done to them.
Wrong, CarrieAnn. The sheeple did this to themselves. They installed these swindlers in office and kept them there so they could facilitate Wall Street’s unchecked looting. Let’s point the finger where it belongs - the American electorate and their insane partisan attachment to BOTH corporate-owned parties and the prostitutes they put forward as “choices” each election.
All I’m saying is some people are starting to see through the facade. Believe me, nothing drives me battier than the tried and true blind party faithful and the fact that they haven’t given up on the us against them routine.
But let me just ask you one question. You say the sheeple installed these candidates in office but how pray tell when the power base only funds candidates that suits their purposes can there ever be any alternative? And even if one of our guys could sneak in, just how long do you think he/she’d last before they were pressured into submission? I saw what was done to Ron Paul in the last election. They didn’t even bother to cover it up. (IE Anderson Cooper in the debates)
You say the sheeple installed these candidates in office but how pray tell when the power base only funds candidates that suits their purposes can there ever be any alternative?
The corrupting and coercive power of Big Money and Big Media is formidable. That makes it all the more imperative for ordinary people to be prepared to step up, dig deep, and rally behind candidates who aren’t co-opted by and beholden to The Powers That Be. When mass apathy and complacency prevail, the good guys in politics don’t stand a chance.
As far as dealing with Big Money and Big Media, maybe the only thing we can do is not play their game. Refuse to be a mindless consumer. Refuse to buy the stock of too-big-to-fail banks and other unethical firms. Turn off the TV and don’t patronize advertisers who back the more egregious MSM propagandists. Form bonds with other people who have opened their eyes and refuse to be part of The Herd.
What about stepping up ourselves? I haven’t seen or heard about anyone I am willing to stand behind. If they are part of the system, they are part of the system.
If I was in CT, I’d be out there for Peter Schiff. I read his book, Crashproof, when hbbers were cycling a copy among themselves so it feels like he’s one of us.
(was that 2007?)
If Congress push’s through a VAT ??
If ??
And once everyone is a criminal, it will be harder and harder to call for the heads of the real crooks who led us to do this doom. That is goal - a world without morality - a world where the smartest sociopaths win it all and nobody cares.
“To those of you who retain some remnant of dignity and the will to live your lives for yourselves, you have the chance to make the same choice. Examine your values and understand that you must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil. ” Atlast Shrugged, From John Galt’s speech
I have something to share about this and will post it at the bottom of the list as it’s rather
long.
Well I certainly supported Obama over McCain/Palin, and would do so again without hesitation. I don’t think the health care bill went far enough on cost control, but think that the core Heritage Foundation idea of setting up regulated exchanges and requiring universal coverage is fundamentally a good idea. I also think the stimulus was absolutely necessary given that we were spinning down into Great Depression II.
That said, I was extremely disappointed when Obama set up the Timmy/Larry duo to handle the economy, and have watched these captured Wall Street lackeys do exactly what I was afraid they would do. The financial sector has not been reformed in any meaningful way and the Obama administration seems determined to keep that from happening. So THE fundamental problem we face is not being addressed. The stimulus addresses the symptoms, but we are still infected with the disease of a financial sector that has become a leach on society.
I also think the stimulus was absolutely necessary given that we were spinning down into Great Depression II.
Glad that problem is solved.
Well I certainly supported Obama over McCain/Palin, and would do so again without hesitation.
Idiots like you from both left and right have ruined the country and continue to do so. Even after seeing what Obama’s up to, I would hope that people at least wise up a little and stop proclaiming who they will vote in next election.
Blaming Timmy and Larry but no Obama is getting old too. It’s like blaming neo-cons or Dick Cheney for all the ills under Bush. It was Bush who sucked then and it is Obama who sucks now.
Blaming Timmy and Larry but not Obama is getting old too. It’s like blaming neo-cons or Dick Cheney for all the ills under Bush.
Why blame the monkey instead of the organ grinder?
It isn’t a question of blaming Timmy and Larry but not Obama. I do blame Obama. But look at the alternative? McCain has regressed into the lowest form of right-wing hack. Sarah Palin a few cancer cells from the Presidency? Sorry but that is very, VERY scary.
So yes, I am very happy to have voted for Obama vs. McCain/Palin. Who I vote for next time will be dependent upon whether the Republicans can put up a viable candidate. Sarah Palin as the nominee will turn me into the biggest Obama supporter in the world.
I wrote in Ron Paul. I wasn’t going to waste my vote on plutocrat puppets.
I’m an active Tea Partier, and I’ve never supported Palin. So there.
BTW, you need to expand your view beyond MSM film/sound bites…and beyond Huffington Post as well (as if that outlet is some bastion of thought).
People here who tout themselves as independent of the MSM really ought to divest themselves of Huffington, salon.com, The Economist, etc., as well as any biased right-wing MSM outlets.
So what exactly does the Tea Party movement stand for? Other than “anger.”
When I see them boo Palin off the stage and tar & feather Dick Armey and his operatives, then I might see them as something other than a bunch of morons.
When I see them boo Palin off the stage and tar & feather Dick Armey and his operatives, then I might see them as something other than a bunch of morons.
+1.
+1
+1 +1….
I’ve stated what they stand for numerous times on this board.
Tea Partiers stand for two things:
(1) Constitutional law.
(2) Smaller government.
That you don’t know this by now tells me that you listen to the MSM for your talking points, such as Cable news and Huffington. Perhaps when you actually bother to show up at a gathering, you’ll think differently. Meanwhile, Sammy, YOU are the sheeple you complain about ad infinitum.
That Sarah Palin is trying to co-op that which is a movement (and not a party), informs you about her, not the movement itself.
BTW, I’m rather tired of all the two-party shills on this board who pretend they are anything other than that. That includes you, Sammy. And Professor Bear/Green Shoots/Cantankerous, who is as liberal as they come.
Kind of suspicious that you brought out your “tea bags” after the 2008 elections…
Actually, it really isn’t: the triggering event for this movement was the Bailout in the fall of 2008. That glaring example of utter contempt for the American People and the rule of law made it clear that the crooks running this show have no interesting in anything but their own power and greed. Obama is merely following the same path as Bush 2, but at a higher speed; the Bailout, IMHO is what woke people up.
I’m just waiting for the tea partiers to spell out exactly how they are going to shrink government. In most of the interviews I’ve seen, these folks are clinging to their social security and medicare, are committed to a huge military, and demand government cut “waste”.
Well -
Since the Tea Partier moniker debuted in April 2009, it make it rather difficult to identify with it before the 2008 elections, no?
Prior to that, I’ve made several overtures reagrding Evan Sayet (many of which were directed at Sammy, interestingly enough) who espouses a return to individual rights and responsibilities. I spoke about Evan Sayet here in 2007 and 2008. Look it up if you doubt me.
Sayet is very anti-liberal. If you like your entitlements and graft, you won’t like listening to what he has to say.
(When I have more time, I’ll paraphrase and post his thought here). Liberals - be they progressives or corporatists - detest Sayet.
I’ve identified with what is now Tea Party ideals since the late 1980s. During the 1990s, I thought libertarian Harry Browne would have proven a respectable President.
Ron Paul has some good ideas, though his “Audit the Fed” spiel is a crock of sh*t and a waste of resources. I also strongly disagree with Paul’s military stance. I think a strong military is vital.
Occasionally, during the past 20 years, I’ve found myself liking politicians from the long decrepit Democrats and Republicans parties. I liked Paul Tsongas, for example.
While I don’t know as much about today’s Paul Ryan as I should, what I have heard him say (and do) thus far I like.
“I’m just waiting for the tea partiers to spell out exactly how they are going to shrink government.”
Thanks to Polly
Boston, Mass.: Thank you for taking our questions. Here is my question for the Tea Party. What are your solutions to today’s problems? For example, I hear the word socialism used a lot and government getting too big. But then what would you cut? Or what would the Tea Party members have done about the financial crisis from 2008? I assume that they would not vote to bailout the banks, but what would they do if the biggest banks in the world go under?
Judson Phillips: First, cut taxes to increase economic growth. That works every time. Second, let’s go through the entire federal budget and eliminate programs that are consumed by waste, fraud or abuse. Start eliminating them.
You’ll likely never hear that, Groundhogday.
Why?
Because it’s a movement, not a political party. I’d be surprised if the “Tea Party” ever becomes a political party. If it does, it’ll lose any effectiveness it has now, or potentially.
The Tea Partiers mission isn’t political power. It’s philosophical, not political. Remember that. If it was political, they’d have an identifiable leader, or group of leaders. Tell me - who leads the Tea Party movement? Sarah Palin? Not hardly. She came to THEM
it’s a key reason why Democrats/Liberals detest them so, and why Republicans/Conservatives fear them so.
If the Tea Party movement morphs from a philosophical movement into a political movement — arises from the Tea Partiers, it’ll likely be called something else, like the Constitutional Party or “Reformist Party”.
“Actually, it really isn’t: the triggering event for this movement was the Bailout in the fall of 2008.”
TRUE - but the moniker for the movement didn’t appear until Rick Santorelli (sp?) opened his mouth on CNBC. That’s why I picked that timeframe.
They probably never will spell it out, Groundhogday. Though demand it, they will.
Why not?
It’s because the Tea Party movement is precisely that - a movement. It’s not a political party. Movement supporters are not interested in political power, they are interested in forcing philosophical change at the government level. That’s the mission. They don’t want to “take over” anything. The Tea Partiers are the antithesis of that. (It’s why I am one - and it’s why people of all backgrounds/creeds/races/ages/orientations are attracted to it, including ex-hippies).
Doubt me? Name the leader of the Tea Partiers.
It isn’t Sarah Palin — she came to THEM, hat in hand.
That there isn’t an identifiable leader tells you a great deal about Tea Partiers. They aren’t looking for a celebrity or Messiah to worship. (They’re too enamored with George Washington and the ideals of those times to bother). That’s another reason I’m involved - the resultant philosophical discussion is exciting!
All of the above explains you why the MSM/Democrat/Liberal shills dismiss and detest them so. Conversely, Repubs/Conservatives fear them and try to co-op them.
In some ways, Tea Partiers remind me of the Amish, who desire to lead a productive life largely in absentia of government/corporatist “intervention”. Tea Partiers as a whole are wonderfully peaceful. Vocal and firm, but peaceful.
If the Tea Partiers ever morphs into a POLITICAL organization, it’ll likely become the “Constitution Party” or the “Reformist Party”. Something Founding Father-ish.
But for now, it’s a philosophical movement, not a political party.
That you don’t know this by now tells me that you listen to the MSM for your talking points, such as Cable news and Huffington.
Apparently you’ve missed my 6,000 posts in here blasting the MSM and their role as a propaganda arm for the corporations that own them. I get my news from a variety of sources, including the ones you’ve named. And from my own personal observations and research.
the triggering event for this movement was the Bailout in the fall of 2008 ??
Yes…AIG….My point was the Tea Baggers have morphed into a Anti-Obama cult from what I see..The same neocons under a different name….As long as they “embrace” people like Beck, Palin & Rush and use FOX as their megaphone they will lose credibility in the middle and the middle is where you need to be…
Tea Partiers stand for two things:
(1) Constitutional law.
(2) Smaller government.
Where were these Tea Partiers when Bush was presiding over the biggest expansion of Federal powers and two undeclared wars? Not to mention TARP.
Eudemon, I think your heart is in the right place. Not sure how I morphed into being a “two party shill” when I despise both parties and their corrupt leadership. I support the principled individuals in both parties who are bucking the party leadership and standing up for their constituents, even if I don’t see eye to eye with them across the board. Reps Ron Paul and Alan Grayson come to mind. Even Bernie Saunders.
Reps Ron Paul and Alan Grayson come to mind. Even Bernie Saunders.
Even Sanders? He’s the only independent among them.
Ron Paul is feared and loathed by the sleazy Establishment GOP “leadership.” They’ve pulled out all the dirty tricks to back their Wall Street-owned, MSM-anointed candidate against Ron’s son, Rand Paul, in his Kentucky Senate race.
I don’t disagree with the tea baggers. But personally find it dangerous. My family got through the Revolutionary War and the Civil War by keeping our heads down.
Might have been a lot of bad memories “Officer, I don’t know what happened”. Might have been a few beneficial memories “He fell down the stairs”. But always for the common good. But since 1750, my family has been able to hang in there in the new world.
Rand is very much the Tea Party darling here in Kentucky, and he returns the affection, appearing at all their rallies. Palin has endorsed him, and he plays that up a lot on his ads.
I’m actually surprised Ron Paul has kept such a distance from the Tea Party- they seem like just his type.
I don’t have a problem seeing the Tea Party as a movement… but a movement still has to have viable objectives. The anti-war “movement” in the 1960’s-70’s had a tangible goal… get out of Vietnam. “Shrinking government” isn’t a viable objective if entitlements and the military are off the table. If this is the Tea Party movement, then this movement is just a big vent by a bunch of folks who really have no interest in making hard choices.
The PeaBrain Party management should make pre-funeral arrangements.
Rand is very much the Tea Party darling here in Kentucky, and he returns the affection, appearing at all their rallies. Palin has endorsed him, and he plays that up a lot on his ads.
I don’t think either Ron or Rand Paul has any illusions about Sarah Palin. The reality is, unfortunately, that many in the tea party base adore her, so her endorsement carries weight. Already, though, more and more of them are starting to see right through her. Ron Paul is no favorite of the “Free Republic” crowd who are the lunatic fringe of the GOP/religious right (the two are indistinguishable these days).
“I don’t disagree with the tea baggers. But personally find it dangerous.”
Cassandra - yeah, it is potentially dangerous, especially if government stooges attempt to silence them.
Consider the alternative….more dangerous is what the government/corporatist will do to all of us if allowed to continue on their current path.
Nefarious people only succeed if the good allow it. Time to take a stand. Now.
I don’t see much difference between the average Tea Party sympathizer and the average HBB sympathizer, at least when you get down to what each group is concerned or angry about. That’s not intended as a compliment or insult to either. I just find way more common ground between the two than I find differences.
Of course stylistically, there are lots of differences. But in the end who cares about those things.
The sad thing is, how many have fallen for the politcian’s and the major media’s relentless quest to drive false social and political wedges between us everyday citizens. A lot of commenters here on both sides obviously have taken the bait, hook, line and sinker. Meanwhile the PTB destroy what is left of our economy and heritage for their own selfish gain while the usual suspects pee in the same political pots day after day, year after year.
We’re not as different from others as we like to think. And anyone who thinks on their own these days for more than a few minutes comes to some very troubling conclusions about our current state of affairs, regardless of what region or faith or social or politcal groups you come from or identify with.
Beautiful post, shoe. Especially your last paragraph.
100% agree.
How many tea party folks are capable of thinking on their own? Would anyone capable of independent thought give Glenn Beck 30 minutes of their attention?
Breaking News from SALT LAKE CITY: Republican U.S. Sen. Bob Bennett of Utah has lost his bid to serve a fourth term after failing to advance past the GOP state convention.
Attorney Mike Lee and businessman Tim Bridgewater are the remaining Republican candidates after Saturday’s vote.
Bennett was a distant third in the voting among roughly 3,500 delegates. He garnered just under 27 percent of the vote. Bridgewater had 37 percent and Lee 35 percent.
Bennett is the first incumbent to lose his seat in Washington this year, the victim of a conservative movement angered by rising taxes and the growth of government.
Bennett was targeted by tea party activists and other groups for supporting a massive bailout of the financial industry, securing earmarks for his state and for co-sponsoring a bipartisan bill to mandate health insurance coverage.
I would have newfound respect for tea party activists if they focused on taking down Wall Street lapdogs and RINOs like Bennett and his ilk. And clearly articulating true conservative principles of limited government and adherence to the Constitution. And auditing the Fed, prior to ending it.
Thank god we got Biden
Wednesday, September 24, 2008
By Associated Press
Vice presidential candidate Joe Biden says today’s leaders should take a lesson from the history books and follow fellow Democrat Franklin D. Roosevelt’s response to a financial crisis.
“When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and didn’t just talk about the, you know, the princes of greed. He said, ‘Look, here’s what happened,’” Barack Obama’s running mate recently told the “CBS Evening News.”
Except, Republican Herbert Hoover was in office when the stock market crashed in October 1929. There also was no television at the time; TV wasn’t introduced to the public until a decade later, at the 1939 World’s Fair.
REMARKS BY THE VICE PRESIDENT TO THE AFL-CIO EXECUTIVE COUNCIL ANNUAL CONFERENCE
Fontainebleau Hotel, Miami Beach, Florida, 11:10 A.M. EST, March 5, 2009.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. (Applause.) Hey, thanks for the welcome. You make it believable. (Laughter.) I tell you what, it’s like visiting Jimmy Williams in Philadelphia. (Laughter.) Hey, it’s good to be — at least in my best comfort zone, man. The best place for me to be my whole career is surrounded by organized labor. And I know how to say “union.” (Applause.)
And old joke, Mr. President, you know, you go home with them that brung you to the dance. Well, you all brought me to the dance a long time ago. And it’s time we start dancing, man. It’s time we start dancing. (Applause.)
By Mark Hirschey
June 13, 2009
Under normal circumstances, it would be difficult to step in and confiscate billions of dollars in stockholder and bondholder wealth. These are not normal times, however. Industry turmoil gives the Obama administration the go-ahead to prepackage a bankruptcy petition that pads union coffers while wiping out common shareholders and ravaging public bondholders.
Under the administration’s plan, the U.S. government gets 60 percent of the new GM, the Canadian government gets 12.5 percent, the United Automobile Workers’ health care fund gets 17.5 percent, and bondholders get the leftover 10 percent. As a sweetener, the UAW also gets a $2.5 billion note, and $6.5 billion in preferred stock paying a 9 percent cash dividend. In commenting on the plan, UAW leaders said that necessary changes involve “painful, unprecedented sacrifices” for union workers, the New York Times reported
This Treasury-imposed restructuring is not a GM bailout; it is a UAW bailout with far-reaching ramifications. GM’s common stockholders are getting wiped out and public bondholders are getting hammered. Taxpayers and consumers get to pay billions of dollars for GM products that they never received or even wanted in the first place. All of this is to reward the UAW for bringing to its knees what was once an American icon.
In the process, the Obama administration is cutting a huge swath through contract law, overturning long-established bankruptcy procedures, and undermining basic free-market principles. Last year, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were nationalized in order to stabilize the credit markets. This year, GM’s common stockholders and bondholders, taxpayers and consumers are being bulldozed in order to protect the UAW.
Go to YouTube and see Jon Stewart mocking Biden’s historical recall on this. Hilarious.
Carly Fiorina destroyed HP.
She shares a lot in common with “Neutron Jack” Welch. Neutron Jack basically destroyed General Electric and helped establish the idea that gutting corporations for short term profit is an acceptable business practice.
All of their kind need to be shown for what they are - soulless monsters concerned only with their own profits - and stripped of power.
Carly Fiorina destroyed HP.
She had some help from Mark Hurd.
Fiorina got nothing but grief and zero cooperation from the moment she took the job.
Breaking up HP was already decided before she became CEO, but it was her job to do it.
She proposed to buy Electronic Data Systems to cut costs by way of outsourcing and was naturally opposed. Of course after she left, HP did acquire EDS.
And I suppose the collapse of the tech bubble can’t have had anything to do with HP’s decline either..
Then what.. she runs for Senate against Babs Boxer and people actually have to weigh all the variables… As if that’s a close call..
I didn’t think I’d ever vote for Carly for anything after HP…but she’s running against Boxer? That’s the toughest lesser-of-two evils choice I’ve ever seen.
Amen. The fact that her and that Goldman whore Whitman are the GOP’s candidates in CA validates everything I’ve been saying about the rottenness of the Republicans and the zombie-like mindlessness of the electorate. And just so we’re clear, the Democratic candidates are no better.
You have problem with Corporate Communist Capitalism©®™, comrade?
What? You mean corporations are NOT the personal piggy banks of the BODs?
What are you, some kinda dang socialeest/commie?!
“Carly Fiorina destroyed HP.”
Sounds like she is well qualified to hold public office in CA, then…
So much venom…
The Tea Party frightens the hell out a lot of people..
Why smear Carly Fiorina? Because of business associations? Outsourcing? Get real..
Why Tea Partiers would frighten anyone other than politicians and the MSM is beyond me.
Fiscal conservatism and the prospect of smaller government scares the pants off liberals.
Frighten? Once you get over laughing at them, their ignorance is appalling and embarrassing.
Ignorance is appalling, not frightening.
I smell fear.
Yes. When one is frightened, he or she often resorts to name-calling and mockery.
You have no reason to fear the whining wackjobs. Relax and enjoy their free entertainment.
Reform bill should include Fannie, Freddie: Shelby May 8, 2010 6:08 AM ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Financial reform legislation being debated by the Senate needs to overhaul government involvement in U.S. mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Senator Richard Shelby, the lead Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, said on Saturday.
As the Senate moves toward a final vote on the bill in the coming weeks, Shelby said it must include reforms for Fannie and Freddie to address the root cause of the recent financial crisis.
“For decades, these multi-trillion dollar institutions leveraged the implicit backing of the American taxpayer to encourage mortgage lending to people who could not afford to repay the loans,” Shelby said in the weekly Republican address.
“But when home prices finally collapsed, these ticking time bombs exploded, saddling taxpayers with hundreds of billions of dollars of debt,” he said.
The Monitor’s View
Financial reform without Fannie and Freddie?
The Senate debate on a financial reform bill is not focused on the two mortgage giants whose risky loans contributed to the frenzy and near-collapse of Wall Street. Why put off a needed debate on the government’s future role in pushing cheap home loans?
By the Monitor’s Editorial Board / April 29, 2010
The Senate began debate Thursday on an overhaul of the financial-services industry. Conspicuously left out of the main bill are any big reforms of the housing finance system – whose roguish, risk-taking behavior was at the root of Wall Street’s near-meltdown.
In fact, the Obama administration wants to put off such reforms until home prices are stable, possibly next year. Another reason is that taxpayers are still bailing out the two biggest players in home finance, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which repackage mortgages and resell them as securities.
The two giants were put into government conservatorship in 2008. Since then they have been the largest recipients of taxpayer dollars in a string of bailouts. They’ve eaten up close to $400 billion in rescue funds. And they still have taxpayers responsible for some $6-8 trillion (yes, trillion) in obligations. Five months ago, the Treasury Department had to announce that federal support for the two government-sponsored enterprises (or GSEs) would be open-ended for a long time.
Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner says past problems with Fannie and Freddie were “symptomatic” of the regulatory failure of the financial industry. The two bought up subprime mortgages “without regard to the risk they posed to the system,” he told Congress last month. And they didn’t have enough capital cushion and were “inadequate” in their risk management.
Yet he and President Obama do not want reform of Fannie and Freddie in this Senate debate.
How can Wall Street itself be reformed without a Fannie-Freddie overhaul? The US mortgage market remains the second largest market for securities in global finance. The two GSEs represent nearly half of the residential mortgage market.
And even as Mr. Obama promises no repeat of the big bailouts of 2008-09, he’s still putting money into these big players.
As a presidential candidate, Obama was not in favor of keeping Fannie and Freddie in their role as market stabilizers for home loans with government backing. In fact, the Treasury Department has already outlined a different model for the two GSEs and has asked the public for ideas. But specific reforms are still secret.
Mr. Geithner did offer this in March: “After reform, the GSEs will not exist in the same form as they did in the past. Private gains will no longer be subsidized by public losses, capital and underwriting standards will be appropriate, consumer protection will be strengthened, and excessive risk taking will be restrained.”
The excuse of waiting on reform until home prices stabilize may not be the real reason for delay. Reform can happen even as the GSEs continue their mortgage work. The likely reason is that big political questions remain about how much government should still push the American dream of home ownership.
…
It is beautiful, isn’t it?
They are using our tax dollars to prop up bankrupt organizations in an effort to make us pay more for housing. We’re being robbed twice!
That’s Government!
Like it?
.. the American dream of home ownership.
Whenever someone uses that phrase, born of NAR, I have to discount everything else they’ve said…
The roots, shockingly, go much deeper than some newfangled NAR slogan:
Economic View
Mom, Apple Pie and Mortgages
By ROBERT J. SHILLER
Published: March 5, 2010
FOR decades, the federal government has subsidized housing — particularly owner-occupied housing. This has been especially true during the continuing financial crisis, with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the Federal Housing Administration propping up the housing market by issuing guarantees for investors on most new mortgages.
But what is the long-term justification for putting taxpayers on the line to subsidize homeownership? Is this nothing more than a sacred cow in American society — a political necessity because so many voters own homes and are mindful of their resale value?
In fact, there is much more to the history of subsidizing housing.
…
Basic economics tells us that when Americans, over all, spend more on housing, they must ultimately spend less on something else. Why should housing consumption be better than other consumption, or investments that people might choose?
This time, the best answer isn’t found in traditional economics but rather in American culture: a long-standing feeling that owning homes in healthy communities is connected to individual liberties that embody our national identity. Historically, homeownership has been associated with freedom, while renting — often in tenements or mill villages — has been linked to the oppression of a landlord.
In his classic 1985 book, “Crabgrass Frontier,” Kenneth T. Jackson of Columbia University delineated the complex train of thought that over the last two centuries has produced the American belief that homeownership encourages pride and good citizenship and, ultimately, preservation of liberty. These attitudes are enduring.
Back in 1899, in “The Theory of the Leisure Class,” Thorstein Veblen described homeownership, particularly of large and expensive dwellings, as “conspicuous consumption.” By that, he meant that it was undertaken substantially for the purpose of impressing others by showing the amount of money one can afford to waste on space one doesn’t need.
What is specifically American here — though it’s increasingly seen in other countries, too — may be the modern sense of equal citizenship, engendered by the illusion that we can sustain conspicuous housing consumption even among a majority of the people.
In short, this all has a great deal to do with culture, and little to do with financial wisdom. After all, financial theory suggests that people should not own their own homes, at least not in the way that many do today. A cardinal tenet is that people should diversify — meaning they shouldn’t put nearly all of their financial eggs in one basket, which is what homeownership now means for so many people.
American mortgage institutions encourage people to take a leveraged position in the real estate market, which is quite risky because home prices can and do decline, as we have learned so painfully. Leverage a risky investment 10 to 1 and you can expect trouble — and we have plenty of it today. More than 16 million homeowners owe more on their mortgages than their homes are worth, according to Mark Zandi of Economy.com.
If we choose to keep subsidizing individual homeownership, we must also commit to adding safeguards so that homeowners are less financially vulnerable. Of course, that will require some creative finance.
But first, we should rethink the idea of renting, which could be a viable option for many more Americans and needn’t endanger the traditional values of individual liberty and good citizenship.
Switzerland, for example, is a country with strong patriotism, a fighting spirit of national defense, a commitment to freedom and tolerance, and a low crime rate. Yet its homeownership rate is just 34.6 percent, versus 66.2 percent for the United States, according to the two countries’ 2000 censuses.
…
I’ll bet you Schiller doesn’t rent..
“I’ll bet you Schiller doesn’t rent…”
I doubt any of the MSM-favored real estate pundits rent. For one thing, they typically have been too wealthy for too long to plausibly not be an owner. Secondly, their frequent affirmations of whacked-out federal housing price support policies suggest they have a vested interest in propping up the value of wealthy home owners’ household asset portfolios.
The stock market is getting better by the day. Pretty soon it will start always going up again.
========================================================
Stocks End Week With Another Drop
4:02 pm May 7, 2010
By Mark Memmott
Wall Street didn’t have anywhere near as wild a ride today as it did on Thursday, when for a moment the Dow Jones Industrial Average was down nearly 1,000 points and looked like it might go even lower.
But it still wasn’t a very good Friday for stocks. The day just ended with the Dow down another 140 points, about 1.3%, and with other major indexes also lower. At one point today, the Dow was off about 350 points.
As Bloomberg New says, “global stocks slid for a fourth day, erasing 2010 gains for U.S. benchmark indexes, and the bonds of debt-laden nations tumbled after Europe’s debt crisis spurred a U.S. equity rout yesterday that undermined confidence in trading mechanisms.”
“Europe’s debt crisis is a big issue that won’t go away anytime soon,” Stephen Massocca, managing director at Wedbush Morgan in San Francisco, told Reuters. And, “with what happened yesterday, investors have grown more concerned that the environment just isn’t safe, period.”
…
Pensacola / Northwest Florida
Anecdotal, but for some strange reason, I’ve noticed a sudden surge in the number of beach front properties for sale. Of course, there wasn’t exactly a shortage of beach front properties for sale before the Gulf oil spill. Interesting.
The Black Gold Coast.
Buy now before you’re condemned-out forever.
They are not making any more oil-front property.
Oil always goes up.
Must be sheen!
Bring offers! (and degreaser for your feet)
LOL. Now I have to clean coffee off my monitor.
“Bust be sheen”. Hilarious.
“Anecdotal, but for some strange reason, I’ve noticed a sudden surge in the number of beach front properties for sale.”
Sounds like those folks have figured out who the pasty is at the poker table.
“The value of this house is in the oil on the beach.” -ReMax realtor showing house to young couple.
Stop it, you’re killing me. I’m going to pee in my pants.
Speaking of the beach, we’re about to go spend the afternoon there while it is more of less pristine. Hopefully, this won’t be our last trip for several decades.
…and for dinner we’re having blackened gulf coast shrimp…
“…and for dinner we’re having blackened gulf coast shrimp…”
With extra virgin crude oil, no doubt…
http://www.newstimes.com/news/article/Ash-delays-reroutes-trans-Atlantic-flights-478102.php
The unspellable Icelandic volcano is acting up again. Just what Europe needs right now.
I saw a documentary on why this ash is so bad for the planes. It said that the ash melts inside the engine, collecting on the turbines and then crystallizing as glass on the turbine blades. Not good if you’re 2000 miles from any landing strip.
why this ash is so bad for the planes ??
Paging X-GSfixer……..
The engines can shut down due to heavy dust or rock chips.
Cobalt -
Do you find it interesting that people here can see how an engine can shut down due to volcanic ash, but cannot fathom how a computer glitch can screw up an internationally-linked financial trading system?
I do.
Yeah, I know. I’m a troll for suggesting that computer/systemtic malfunction is a possible answer for Thursday’s 1000-point dive in 15 minutes’ time.
Then again, it also could’ve been terrorism, Goldman Sachs, the IMF pulling a timed trigger to save Greece or the European banking system, etc.
Yup. You are correct cobalt.
This ash gums up economies, too.
Can’t we blame the volcano and the oil spill and the Greek debt problems on fat-fingers somehow and make it all better? Don’t these people know how to spin?
Fat Finger of God
The “Finkle Finger of Fate Award”.
Rowan and Martin’s Laugh-In
Beat me to it!
Arrgh, bad spelling and forgot one word. It is actually:
“The Flying Fickle Finger of Fate Award”
Rowan and Martin’s Laugh-In
What Europe needs is less socialism. Starting with Greece.
I agree. Less socialism for the banks and businesses and PTB cronies.
Papoulias (President of Greece) was a founding member of the Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK) and a close associate of its leader Andreas Papandreou.
G. Papandreou (Jr.) has been leader of the Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK) party since February 2004. In 2006 he became President of the Socialist International. George Papandreou became the 182nd Prime Minister of Greece on October 6, 2009..
Try to blame banks and businesses and bailouts all you like but there’s no getting around it..
Oh for god’s sake everyone is to blame here.
The presidency of Greece is a figurehead. The prime minister runs the gov, and for 5 years prior to Oct 9, 2009, the pm was from the center-right New Democracy party. Surely the party that’s been in charge the last 8 months is less to blame than the party in charge the previous 5 years?
Next bit of disinformation, joey?
alpha.. The previous 5 years? As a proponent of reliable information, why don’t you go back .. lets say 30 years?
Since 1981 to the present, the Panhellenic Socialist Movement had control from 81′ to ‘89, and from ‘93 to 2004, plus year 2009.
So since ‘81, except for two periods of 4 years, socialism has ruled Greece.
You can always count on Joey for an endless supply of complete and utter bullshiit.
But NOT the last 5 years. Which just coincidentally happened to be the same time as the CDOs and the RE bubble.
Mere coincidence.
(I don’t really care one way or the other about their government. The entire world wide financial mess was caused by the Bankstas. Period.)
So now the CDO’s and RE bubble started in 2005? And the Bankstas did it all, the world over..
.. yet one more example of how everyone must completely ignore reality for the witch hunt to seem even remotely justified.
If the center-right party controlling Greece for the last 5 and a half years had been fighting to regain control of Greece’s finances during that period, you might have a leg to stand on, joey. As it is, it looks more like your daily talking points weren’t well researched, or your providers assumed a less inquisitive bunch of yahoos as your target audience. You should tell them to bump it up a notch. We’re not all lap-it-up dittoheads here.
LOL. Well said.
I agree with that, too, ecofeco. Socialism unfairly and unwisely protects corrupt/lazy/irresponsible business entities in addition to individuals.
All the more reason not to adopt its tenets.
Fascism(corporatist capitalism) unfairly and unwisely protects corrupt/lazy/irresponsible business entities in addition to high net worth individuals.
See how that works?
“Fascism(corporatist capitalism) unfairly and unwisely protects corrupt/lazy/irresponsible business entities in addition to high net worth individuals.”
Is that an argument for or against socialism?
Well, since I’ve long thought Obama a Fascist rather than a Socialist (and have said so here before), I’ve both bases covered.
Now that you seem to recognize that Obama is a Fascist, too, all is well between us. Right, exeter?
Socialism at the street level and Fascism within the higher echelon makes everyone a loser. This includes those who make $100K+ a year and insist they know how those making $35K a year should spend their money.
Go buy a dictionary.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aRVsqkRolq1c&pos=4
Another four banks shuttered by FDIC. Bank dead pool now at 68. More and more putrid corpses turning up among the green shoots.
Advice Needed on Moving.
How do I screen a new LL? I know this subject has been brooked in the past but I wasn’t paying attention as I thought I was trapped in my POS home.
Thanks,
Lip
Look up the place on the recorder of deeds web site (or call the office) to see if any leins are attached or if the place is in lis pendens (an indicator of pre-foreclosure), and check the assessors web site to make sure property taxes are paid promptly.
If LL has multiple properties, you might want to check some or all of them.
And don’t be afraid to ask for a reference.
ya know.. there’s a business opportunity here. Lip is one among maybe hundreds of thousands who might pay a few dollars to have a “professional” do all this research work for them.
“Moving? Worried about renting a home or apartment that will be lost to foreclosure, sending you back on the street without your deposit money? Don’t be a victim. Call 1-888-…”
Do not overpay on deposits…usually first and a security
Also see if the LL puts it in a separate account, some state laws like NJ are strict on this.
And of course DO NOT pay in CASH and a get a signed lease before you ever leave the landlords place… Without a signed lease in your hands,( its in the mail) a judge will automatically assume no lease… you are a month to month tenant.
Lip -
I’d ask your future landlord (if it’s a small building/complex) for a copy of their credit score.
If they don’t share their score with you, move on.
Even if they are not in foreclosure or pre-foreclosure, it also pays to check on his/her refinancing history. In my county, this information is publicly available. If the LL is a serial refinancer, I consider that to be a problem because it could indicate a higher possibility of foreclosure in the near future.
My experience is that an LL will be insulted and terminate the negotiation if you ask for credit information, so if you do this be very diplomatic about it. Perhaps it would help if you give a detailed explanation as to why you are uncomfortable without this info, given the current realities. It would also be helpful to get proof that the LL is current on the mortgage payments. If the LL owns the house outright, I can see that in the county records ( not sure about other locales ).
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=36904
2006 video has surfaced where Barney Frank crows about his role in reducing banks reporting requirements to “financial detectives” and claims the housing bubble really isn’t a bubble at all.
Thank goodness we have men of his stature “righting the ship” with the help of Timmy G and his merry crew of pirates.
Barney for Fed Chairman!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100508/ap_on_bi_ge/us_bernanke_happiness;_ylt=AjUSXqKIW29XUiQgycCaUgKs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNwaWJpN2tnBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNTA4L3VzX2Jlcm5hbmtlX2hhcHBpbmVzcwRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzQEcG9zAzEEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawNmZWRjaGllZnRlbGw-
Bernanke tells new college grads to be happy. I wish Ron Paul would have prepped the fresh-faced graduates by informing them of just how badly the Fed and their accomplices on Capital Hill have screwed them and future generations. But they’ll figure it out on their own soon enough.
I have occassionally felt a little sorry for myself when it looked like I was getting stuck starting a career (or wanting to make a major shift) during an economic downturn. Looking at the world that very recent graduates have to face, I’m not feeling sorry for myself anymore.
“I have occasionally felt a little sorry for myself when it looked like I was getting stuck starting a career (or wanting to make a major shift) during an economic downturn.”
That is as good a time as any. I have done it myself once or twice already…
Bubbles Ben can be happy: he has a job for life, despite his glaring incompetence. As for the common folks, let them eat newly printed dollars!
It’s not just the Fed and the politicians. Don’t forget the corporations who outsourced so many jobs. The politicians tried to make it easier to keep employees through tax cuts and the corps outsourced anyway. The Dems tried to make it easier to keep employees through public option health care and the corporate politicians fought it.
Oh no, no, no. They actually gave tax cuts TO OUTSOURCE the jobs.
Companies with overseas subsidiaries can keep their income untaxed by the IRS if they don’t transfer that revenue back to the U.S.
Yes, you can google that.
How was that TARP thingee supposed to work again?
* THE INTELLIGENT INVESTOR
* MAY 8, 2010
When the Global Debt Shuffle Hits Home
It took the Dow Jones Industrial Average 62 long, grinding years to close above 582.69 for the first time. On Thursday, the Dow plunged by 582.69 points in less than 420 seconds.
The market’s terrifying drop was more than a technical trading glitch. It was a warning that the U.S. economy is playing a dangerous game. After all the massive bailouts, the federal debt is exploding.
Overall U.S. government debt now stands at 92.6% of projected 2010 gross domestic product, according to the International Monetary Fund.
The U.S. now has a heavier debt burden than several of the overleveraged countries that have been branded with the scornful nickname “the PIIGS.” Portugal’s debt, according to the IMF, is 85.9% of its GDP; Ireland’s, 78.8%; Italy, 118.6%; Greece, 124.1%; Spain, 66.9%. Perhaps there should be a new acronym, with the U.S. added to Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain: “PIG IS U.S.”
But joining this club is no joke. Economists Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff, authors of “This Time Is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly,” have shown that a rise in government debt above 90% is associated with a decline in economic growth of roughly one percentage point per year.
Yes, in recent months, there’s been a lot of bullish talk about how the American balance sheet has been cleaned up. Total consumer debts, according to the Federal Reserve, have dropped by $160 billion since the third quarter of 2008, while total business debt is down by more than $150 billion. And banks and other financial institutions owe $1.4 trillion less than they did in late 2008.
Those debts haven’t disappeared. They have merely been shifted onto the books of the federal government—in what may be the highest-stakes shell game ever. On Sept. 30, 2008, total U.S. public debt stood at $5.8 trillion. By the end of 2009, it had surpassed $7.8 trillion. So far this year, it has swollen by an additional 8%; total U.S. public debt outstanding now exceeds $8.4 trillion.
…
“UNFAIR!”
* WEEKEND INVESTOR
* MAY 8, 2010
A Surprise Tax Hit on Foreclosures
For People Who Lose or Walk Away From Their Homes, A Big Tax Bill May Loom
By JEFF D. OPDYKE
Maxine McDaniel has a message for Americans considering walking away from an unaffordable mortgage: Beware of taxes.
Though not every homeowner who’s underwater on a mortgage need worry, many are finding that a foreclosure or other form of housing loss can lead to a big tax obligation.
Chris Schneider for The Wall Street Journal
Maxine McDaniel walked away from her Loveland, Colo., home in January. Now the 59-year-old nurse faces a potentially huge tax bill.
In Ms. McDaniel’s case, the 59-year-old in January abandoned the 4,300-square-foot Loveland, Colo., home she and her late husband built. After her husband’s death in July 2008, Ms. McDaniel, who earns about $34,000 a year as a home-health nurse, couldn’t maintain the $3,000 monthly payments necessary on her nearly $500,000 interest-only mortgage. So she stopped making them and moved in with an uncle.
Now, she’s bracing for the next blow: an Internal Revenue Service form detailing as much as $150,000 in debt canceled by the bank when it took control of the house. The canceled debt is a form of income, says the IRS—meaning she’ll owe taxes on it.
“I had no clue this would happen,” says Ms. McDaniel, who, with her husband, had refinanced at least three times, including one cash-out loan. That transaction caused her problems because, while canceled debt originally used to buy or build a house can be exempted from tax filings, debt used for other purposes cannot. “I just thought I’d get out from under the house and that would be that,” she says.
…
“I just thought I’d get out from under the house and that would be that,” she says.
Some “victim.” Blithely skip out of your obligations and let someone else deal with the fallout. I hope the IRS nails her sorry a$$ to the wall.
We need more of this. Perhaps (just maybe) it will be long time before she aspires again to be a “homeowner”. Fewer people buying homes in delusional fashion will be a good thing
Why would a 59-year-old still have a $500K mortgage? Shouldn’t she and her late hubby have the house free and clear by that age?
Note: 4,300 square foot house. Not a modest house by any means.
Does the IRS tax “forgiven debt” as capital gains or as ordinary income?
Does the IRS tax “forgiven debt” as capital gains or as ordinary income?
As with all things taxual, it’s complimicated:
from thismatterdotcom
“When a debt is canceled by the lender because it cannot collect the debt, such as in a foreclosure or a short sale, the IRS considers the canceled debt as taxable ordinary income.
Foreclosures and Short Sales
When a lender forecloses on a home, or if the home is sold in a short sale, the IRS treats it as a sale. If the borrower is not personally liable for the debt, such as would be the case for a nonrecourse loan, then the selling price is equal to the price of the cancelled debt. If the borrower is liable for the debt, then the sale price is equal to the canceled debt up to the fair market value (FMV) of the home. If the canceled debt is greater than the FMV, then the difference between the debt and the FMV is treated as ordinary income, for which the lender is required to send a Form 1099-C, Cancellation of Debt (COD), listing the amount of ordinary income. Any unpaid liabilities on the property, such as property taxes, will reduce the FMV of the home and increase the COD. However, if the liabilities are paid by the borrower, then this will increase the FMV and decrease the COD. The lender will also send a Form 1099-A, Acquisition or Abandonment of Secured Property, that will allow the borrower to determine the capital gain or loss from the foreclosure. Taxes must be paid on the capital gain in addition to any ordinary income from the canceled debt that exceeds the FMV of the home in a recourse loan. For a nonrecourse loan, any income is treated as a capital gain equal to the canceled debt minus the adjusted basis of the property—there is no COD income. However, a capital loss from a foreclosure cannot be deducted.
With the recent decline of home prices, many homes are worth less than the amount of money owed on the property, especially for borrowers who took advantage of lax lending standards, and bought with no money down or used inflated home appraisals. Consequently, many homeowners whose homes were foreclosed by the lender may owe a significant amount of taxes. The IRS treats all forgiven debt as ordinary income, even though in the case of foreclosure, the homeowner doesn’t get to keep the home.
If the taxes are not paid for the year the debt was canceled, then the IRS adds penalties and interest to the total tax bill, which can often be tens of thousands of dollars.
Because the lender has some discretion in valuing a home, it can sometimes be successfully argued that the fair market value of the home was greater than the debt, in which case, no tax on COD is due.”
Better late than never in case anyone else is catching up on their weekend reading:
If she’s insolvent (i.e. medical and other debts more than her total assets) she still won’t have to pay a dime. Serial spenders plus a terminal illness at what might be a fairly young age (under 65 thus pre-medicare) might not have anything left over. Uncle Sam isn’t interested in blood from turnips. On the other hand, I hope she has enough assets to pay the tax bill, since being beyond broke at 59 is a much scarier thing than paying taxes on forgiven debt.
Looking at the charts (spx and indu 2 year) it’s like deja vu all over again. We started selling off right where we started selling off back in the Fall of 2008.
After making dodgy loans to subprime home-debtors, the banks made even more dodgy loans to entities trying to save subprime home-debtors — sovereigns.
Despite all the good news in business and consumer spending, investors just want to get out.
Sell in May and run away.. RUN!
Run run run away
http://popup.lala.com/popup/504684680779212626
Jefferson Starship Gold Album 1975. Rock on
Never a Starship fan, but KBC Band’s “America” is one of my all-time favorite songs. (Two ex-Starship guys fronted the KBC band).
Blech. Mary Balin’s starship. Gimme Grace.
What’s more, if you broaden the chart on the industrials to 20 years, it looks like a Head and Shoulder reversal. If you did the same with the S&P, it looks like a double top. It could be nothing or it could be everything.
From http://www.zerohedge dot com: Moodys Gets an SEC Wells Notice?!
“http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1059556/000119312510113077/d10q.htm
“On March 18, 2010, MIS received a “Wells Notice” from the Staff of the SEC stating that the Staff is considering recommending that the Commission institute administrative and cease-and-desist proceedings against MIS in connection with MIS’s initial June 2007 application on SEC Form NRSRO to register as a nationally recognized statistical rating organization under the Credit Rating Agency Reform Act of 2006.
“Well at least it took Moody’s under two months to report this massively material development, which while we are not positive on how to read the C&D action on the NRSRO registration, could mark the beginning of the end for the rating agency. If the firm is enjoined from providing additional rating research should the SEC action find fault and proceed with a lawsuit, it would mean game over for the business. Egan-Jones: it’s IPO time.”
“We will be shocked, shocked we tell you, to find that Mr. Buffett has sold out his entire position in MCO when BRK’s next 13-F is filed.”
Its time to put high frequency trading to rest. I doubt my mutual funds participate. Its companies like Gollum and Citi who make money doing that. As an individual you are likely to lose money against an algorith that knows you are a weak mortal.
My point is this too has to be controlled. Create a new 5 cent uptick rule for shorting or high frequency selling.
I say out immigration on the back burner and really fix up financial house. Next enforce existing immigration laws and control border.
Who’s going to control it? The SEC? The banksters keep that toothless pit puppy on a very short leash.
Why would a 5 cent or even a $5 uptick rule prevent the people with the fastest computers from having the same (a few microseconds) advantage they do now?
When the door opens, they will be the first ones to go through, no matter when it opens.
Suburban Lake Worth man pleads guilty in driver license scheme
By Michael LaForgia Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Posted: 11:25 a.m. Friday, May 7, 2010
WEST PALM BEACH — A suburban Lake Worth man this morning pleaded guilty to helping mastermind a plot to dole out more than 1,000 driver licenses to illegal immigrants from a state licensing bureau in Delray Beach.
Willy Adam, 52, pleaded guilty to three counts of conspiracy to commit unlawful compensation for official behavior and one count of unlawful compensation for official behavior.
His guilty plea follows convictions of six others, including state driver license examiners, in the scheme, which distributed at least 1,700 bogus licenses to people statewide.
wow.,. how nice would it be to have a perfectly legal fake license/identity.
I’m going to chat up the clerk at the DMV next time I’m down there.. maybe offer to take her out for coffee..
The guy can and will likely be prosecuted on the the Patriot Act.