May 20, 2010

A Climb Up And Down Mount Everest

A report from the Washington Post. “The glut of homes for sale in the Washington area has shrunk dramatically since the housing market’s darkest days in 2008. On the sidelines is the Arlington condominium that Ryan Sparacino bought when prices soared in 2005. Sparacino and his fiancee, Lindsay Kucera, recently bought a new house and would love to unload the condo. But they’ve decided to rent it out because he owes more than the house is worth — up to $30,000 more, according to his real estate agent’s estimates. ‘I could afford to sell the condo, but mentally I’m not there right now to write that kind of check,’ said Sparacino, a lawyer.”

“Even people who are not underwater, such as Scott Berman, are holding out. Berman and his wife Hillary briefly tried to sell their Bethesda home in January. They changed their minds after concluding that it would not fetch the $899,000 they wanted. They are renting it out instead. ‘We wanted to let the market come back a little,’ said Berman, a financial planner.”

“Nearly 31 percent of Washington area residents have no equity in their homes, according to First American CoreLogic. In order to sell, they must bring cash to the table. Since many homeowners are unable or unwilling to do that, they don’t list their homes for sale even though they want to, said Michael Briggs, VP of professional development at a local real estate brokerage. ‘That’s a whole bunch of properties that should be on the market right now and they’re just not in the game,’ Briggs said.”

The Washington Examiner. “Stephen Fuller, director of the Center for Regional Analysis at George Mason University, says there will be more foreclosures, but far fewer than the economy-shaking deluge of 2008 and for a different reason. ‘We expect there will be a second wave, but nothing of the magnitude we saw in 2008,’ says Fuller. ‘That wave was tied to subprime lending. This one will be more of a result of an extended length of unemployment.’”

“‘The Washington area does not have the significant magnitude of unemployment like some other areas of the country,’ he says, ‘but we do have 100,000 more people unemployed than we did a year ago. Prince George’s County is the new epicenter of this. It still has significantly declining property values.’”

The Daily Press in Virginia. “April set a new record for foreclosure filings on the Peninsula. Foreclosure looms for some who bought their first home during the housing boom and were told they would be able to refinance later. But since then, perhaps they’ve lost income or their credit has been damaged, and that’s not possible, said Jill Simmons, a Catholic Charities of Eastern Virginia financial counselor.In other cases, people refinanced, not realizing that the money it cost to refinance was rolled back into the mortgage. Then a financial hardship happens, and they find themselves in debt, she said.”

“Joe’s health took a turn for the worse in 2003, launching his finances on a downward spiral. Now he’s fighting to keep his Hampton home — the home that he grew up in. The family racked up credit card debt and took equity out of their house. Last year, Joe tried talking to the bank about a loan modification after President Barack Obama unveiled plans to help struggling homeowners. But those plans were too new, and the bank was too overwhelmed by the droves of people seeking mortgage relief, to help him, he said.”

‘He looked for agencies to help him modify his loan. All he found were companies that charged between $800 and $1,500 up front and promised nothing. That’s when he found help for free from Virginia Beach-based Catholic Charities of Eastern Virginia. Simmons helped them apply for a modification. He hopes to find out soon if his monthly payment is reduced. If it doesn’t work, he’d consider moving into an apartment so he won’t have to worry about mowing the grass, paying water bills and the other expenses of homeownership, he said. But it’s hard to think of leaving his childhood home, the home he returned to shortly after his father died, he said.”

“His advice to homeowners facing foreclosure? ‘I just didn’t give up. People have to not give up,’ he said. And, ‘Don’t go for the scams. If they want money up front, that’s a scam. Stay away from it. You grab the first lifeline that comes your way. All I had on my mind was saving the house.’”

The Gainesville Times. “In January 2008, a the Prince William Board of County Supervisors voted 7-1 to approve rezoning requests for the areas of land now known as Haymarket Landing and the UVA-Foundation property. Well, there’s no houses yet. In fact, you’re more likely to find deer than land surveyors in the area. And that means the Haymarket Bypass is stuck in the concept phase until the housing market recovers well enough that demand for new property in western Prince William County surges again.”

“In the third quarter of 2007, just months before the county’s votes on the rezonings, the average home price for a detached single-family dwelling in Haymarket was over $600,000. Now, multiple Web sites have the price listed at under $400,000. As for how long a wait until there’s movement on the ground on the developments and $3.3 million road, that’s anyone’s guess according to county planning director Stephen Griffin.’

“‘The development has grinded to a halt just about,’ he said.”

The Frederick News Post in Maryland. “Frederick County saw a slight dip in the number of foreclosures in April, but with distressed home sales still nearly half of all houses sold locally, Realtors remain worried. ‘Banks are becoming more receptive to short sales; they are better than foreclosures,’ said Sandy Fouche, president-elect of the Frederick County Association of Realtors. ‘ think you will still see short sales for several years.’”

“Realtytrac said there were 287 in Frederick County in April, 72 percent higher than the number of foreclosures in April 2009. Patrick McLister, a lawyer who works with Realtors, said the 72 percent higher rate for foreclosures in April, compared to a year ago, is troubling.”

“‘That statistic is indicative of the fact that homeowners have tried to modify their loans but are ineligible or don’t qualify for the modification programs, or the banks are now moving forward with foreclosures after a short break last year to see if the modification experiment would lessen the defaulting loans,’ he said. ”

“The rise in unemployment and depletion of personal savings accounts are also contributing factors, he said. ‘I was starting to feel old looking at the birth dates on the driver’s licenses for most of our homebuyer settlement clients last year. Now that the $8,000 credit has expired for contracts not signed by April 30, the banks may have a more difficult time selling the properties they are now taking back by foreclosure, especially those that are above the $300,000 price range,’ McLister said.”

The Star News in North Carolina. “One in every five people who worked in the Wilmington-area real estate and construction industries five years ago is out of the business now. Until recently, home sales here had spiraled down to less than half of what they were when the housing bubble burst, according to statistics from the Wilmington Regional Association of Realtors. Employment in the sales and leasing end of the industry fell about 20 percent from the first quarter of 2005 to the first quarter of 2009, according to data from the N.C. Employment Security Commission.”

“But employment in home construction side slid about 22 percent, with some construction occupations showing job contractions of 50 percent. And real estate experts believe that the job loss continued after that.”

“If you were to plot sales of new construction homes here from 2000 to 2009, the line would look line a climb up and down Mount Everest, said William Hall, an economist at the University of North Carolina Wilmington. The summit was reached in 2005, and it’s been a steep descent since then, he said. ‘If you look at building permits for single-family homes, there was a fourfold increase from 2000 to 2005, then a fourfold decrease to now,’ Hall said.”

“While the number of real estate agents in the WRAR has dropped since the boom, the decrease hasn’t been proportional. In 2005, the number of agents in the WRAR was about 2,200; now it’s around 1,800, said Tim Milam, CEO of Coldwell Banker Sea Coast Realty. ‘But it’s not what you think. A lot of people say they’re working but they are not in the business,’ Milam said. Agents may be working part-time in another area, he said. Others ‘couldn’t pay the dues or the money it takes to be in business,’ Milam added.”

“The Brunswick County Board of Realtors has seen a hefty drop in membership, said Mary McCarthy, president of the association that covers most of Brunswick County south and west of Leland. Association members include inspectors and appraisers. She said there has been a significant loss of appraisers statewide. ‘I know an appraiser selling insurance now,’ said Howell Graham, a partner in the Wilmington appraisal firm Joseph Robb & Associates. ‘Some of the new appraisers that are not well-known are struggling.’”

“Many have adapted to the changes, however. Take attorneys. Some Wilmington firms have moved part of their business from home closings, which have fallen, to foreclosures, which are rising. Wilmington attorney Alan Solana said two-thirds of his business now is ‘directly related to the downturn in the economy – foreclosure, eviction,’ he said.”

“And he’s busy. ‘I came back from a foreclosure sale at noon in Bolivia. I filed the final report,’ Solona said, describing one recent day’s work. ‘I’m getting ready to finalize five more foreclosures, then a closing, and I’ve got five new foreclosures. (Attorneys) who have a straight residential practice are hurting badly. Those who had the ability to morph have morphed.’”

The Philadelphia Inquirer in Pennsylvania. “With record numbers of foreclosures littering the landscape and even more likely to come, the housing industry has been doing a lot of soul-searching on the question of who should be a homeowner. One view of ownership, articulated by James H. Carr of the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, is that there should be ‘no lending without ensuring that the borrower is able to repay.’”

“‘Even to say that shows how out of control the financial system is,’ Carr told a seminar sponsored by the Philadelphia Federal Reserve Bank here last week.”

‘For Farah Jiminez, it is less a matter of money than of temperament. ‘Not everyone is prepared for the responsibility,’ said Jiminez, executive director of the Mt. Airy USA community-development corporation in Philadelphia. ‘As housing counselors, we see this all the time. We have clients who want to know when they can get in a house. Then we have clients who want to know what they can do to ensure they can stay in the house.’”

“Even the worst housing downturn since the Great Depression doesn’t dampen the enthusiasm of Americans eager for a piece of the American dream of homeownership. A recent and extensive Fannie Mae consumer survey shows that the vast majority prefer owning to renting - even people who are delinquent on their mortgages or whose houses are worth less than their loans on them.”

“‘The nonfinancial issues eclipse the financial ones,’ Fannie Mae chief economist Doug Duncan told the Fed seminar. ‘They say owning a house makes more sense than renting one, even if they are in trouble.’ Yet as a result of the comprehensive public awareness of mortgage issues, ‘most believe that it will be harder to buy a house in the future, especially for their children,’ he said.”

“Efforts to increase homeownership generally and among minority groups long kept out of the market were not wrong and did not lead to the housing crisis, Carr said. Excesses in the mortgage industry that led to the debacle ‘were not designed to increase sustainable homeownership,’ he said. ‘If innovation in financing is simply designed only to create billions of dollars in profits, that is not innovation.’”




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95 Comments »

Comment by Ben Jones
2010-05-20 05:45:48

BTW, it looks like we will have that DC HBB meetup the second or third weekend of June. I’m going to finalize that very soon, and details will be on the forum.

I’m also going through Dallas and Austin on the way to Florida before that, so I hope to meet some of you then as well.

Comment by bink
2010-05-20 08:54:20

You might want to stop by San Francisco before this place is destroyed:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/05/20/BAC41DHH38.DTL

The future grew a bit dimmer for the Fairmont Hotel’s landmark Tonga Room Wednesday as members of San Francisco’s Historic Preservation Commission couldn’t agree on whether the aging tiki bar was worth saving.

It’s a shame I won’t be in DC when you arrive. If you happen to make a trip to Hawaii though, you, Crash & Burn, and I will have the smallest HBB meetup ever.

Comment by Ben Jones
2010-05-20 09:05:26

We’ll make it out to Hawaii at some point. There are more HBBers there than you might imagine.

I expect to be in Florida for about a week, driving to the major markets, so we don’t have to all get together in just one or two places.

Comment by snake charmer
2010-05-20 10:32:28

Are there Florida meetups on the agenda?

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Comment by Ben Jones
2010-05-20 10:51:10

Yeah, I decided that while I’m out there, a get-together of Florida posters is long overdue. I’m going to fly into the Palm Beach area and travel to however many cities that people want me to. Then I’m headed to DC.

 
Comment by Michael Fink
2010-05-20 11:22:54

Let me know if there are any meetups in the WPB area; I’d love to attend if I can work it into my schedule!

 
Comment by pismoclam
2010-05-20 20:54:56

Will there be any HBBrs traveling to NY for the Belmont ?

 
 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2010-05-20 09:59:25

I would love to meet up with the HBBers in Hawaii.

 
 
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-05-20 10:29:50

You have an invitation to do a live radio show here in NYC…and not for 15 minutes…..

Comment by Ben Jones
2010-05-20 10:31:41

I’d like to go to NYC, but haven’t gotten much interest from folks up there.

Comment by aNYCdj
2010-05-20 10:37:25

guess i have to work them over a bit…..you will love some of the overpriced junk just sitting on the “market” ….

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Comment by Brett
2010-05-20 19:50:08

You know you got your followers here on Austin. I’d be more than happy to meet y’all!

 
 
Comment by sean from nva
2010-05-20 05:50:36

I have lived in Prince william county for well over 25 years and I tell you we have a very long way to fall. They are still building houses just a fast as they are being foreclosed on. PWC, and city of Manassas has raise their property tax again, but city of manassas park was able to hold the line on their property tax by cutting staff. There is more pain to come within the next two years.

 
Comment by jeannie
2010-05-20 06:00:30

“Nearly 31 percent of Washington area residents have no equity in their homes, according to First American CoreLogic.

Heheh, lots of smart fellas in DC.

Comment by Fitzclarence
2010-05-20 07:39:42

Are that many people really that stupid? Heaven help us all.

Comment by mikey
2010-05-20 08:26:05

“The Washington Examiner. “Stephen Fuller, director of the Center for Regional Analysis at George Mason University, says there will be more foreclosures, but far fewer than the economy-shaking deluge of 2008 and for a different reason. ‘We expect there will be a second wave, but nothing of the magnitude we saw in 2008,’ says Fuller. ‘That wave was tied to subprime lending. This one will be more of a result of an extended length of unemployment”

This is total absolute BS and Fuller is an damned idiot. I may not be an expert or an economist but even I know that there is an unbelievable amount of foreclosures to come.

Jobs losses, stability concerns and unemployment are getting worse and are a current and a lagging problem. CRE is a monster national disaster waiting in the shadows. That’s a local, regional and national Freddie Kruger on meth and steroids.

Sub prime, suicide opt loans are still and will be defaulting big time with the Great Safe Prime loans defaults a 36-37% rate of ALL loans leading the freakin’ way.

Prime can afford to pay but are underwater and Walking. This will continue big time. It’s a business decision.

1 in 10 mortgages are delinquent from 30-60 days.

The Cure Rate for mortgage loans 30 days past due is a dismal 4-5% cure.

The Cure Rate for mortgage loans 60+ days is damned near ZERO.

Banks from Wall Street to Main Street are insolvent.

My name is mikey. Take your idiotic analysis and try to Blow to Recovery Smoke up somebody elses Butt!!

I’m so mad with all this all expert crap that I’m just using my feeble memory recall on MY rant figures rather than finding backup links so don’t ask !!

:(

Comment by Doug in Boone, NC
2010-05-20 08:49:40

Agreed!

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Comment by mikey
2010-05-20 09:00:35

Oh, I forgot to add to my rant review the Free and Open Mortgage Market…

There is NONE.

Other than Freddie, Frannie and FHA doing 99% of the Housing Loan Business…and that’s the Taxpayers !!

:)

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Comment by DinOR
2010-05-20 12:12:23

mikey,

I think what Mr. Fuller was driving at was the root cause of the defaults. When you look at FC’s in ‘08 ( that means some of those folks may have stopped making payments on their very first non-teaser level PITI, and I mean as far back as some time in ‘05! )

People that have been laid off, re-trained, found ’some’ kind of work have a much better chance of salvaging their situation than a janitor trying to make a full amoritizing pymt. on an $800k McChateaux.

Agreed, lots more to come, but I think the distinction is, w/ the unemployed, some ‘will’ find jobs whereas w/ many of the earlier wave, the -only- possibility to save their bacon was rising equity. And that done left town.

 
Comment by mikey
2010-05-20 17:12:03

DinOR,

Sorry, I briefly attented and worked at GWU where Fuller sat for 25 years prior to his going to George Mason.

Given that, I shouldn’t have expected anything too profound from him in that, we both have the valid excuse of a poor education for our rants.

;)

 
 
Comment by Jim A.
2010-05-20 12:23:19

I predict that with all the “Ruthless Defaults” we’ll see fewer “rolling 30s” than usual. Because when you’re really trying, many people manage stay one month behind for awhile, rather than suddenly not paying ANYTHING for 90 days.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-05-20 12:34:03

I used to work with a search engine optimization guy who go so fed up with the use of “expert” in his field that he started calling himself an “egg-spurt.”

And he really deserved to use the word “expert.” He had one of my sites ranked #1 in Google for several years.

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Comment by oxide
2010-05-20 12:58:52

Yep, good ol’ Credit Suisse come to bite us again. The second hump of Option ARM/Prime recasts is still year away. I don’t believe that that second hump is shrinking due to defaults, not yet. Plus, there are reports of people Walking or playing Stay but No Pay, but how of them are there, really? I think that hump is still there, waiting to destroy the economy.

I have NO idea what’s going to happen with CRE. Isn’t that more local banks? My guess is that Sheila Baer is going to apply to be Gutenberg’s Apprentice — fast.

And btw, do yet have any reports of Toll Brothers houses falling apart? They are upwards of 7-10 years old by now.

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-05-20 13:23:48

Answer to oxide’s question:

“And btw, do yet have any reports of Toll Brothers houses falling apart? They are upwards of 7-10 years old by now.”

A friend of the Slim family once worked for Toll. His experience in their employ prompted him to coin this slogan, which my mother loves to repeat:

Toll Brothers Homes: Guaranteed for five years. Then they fall apart.

 
Comment by DinOR
2010-05-20 14:26:55

“any reports of Toll Brothers houses falling apart?”

( No but I’ve heard of a few that are holding together! )

Not sure if it’s the “Stay but No Pay” that’s lurking to scuttle the economy? If anything, it’s the disparity between mortgage debt and mortgage -value- that would be doing that, no?

We’ve got billions being pumped into nothing more than protecting the bank’s interest ( and the current borrower’s dignity ) every month! If homeowner’s/loanowner’s PITI was more in alignment w/ the underlying security, I think we’d be in better shape.

What is the net effect for the economy when your home is going down by a greater amount than what you’re paying in each month? Just curious questions…

 
 
 
 
Comment by pismoclam
2010-05-20 20:57:05

Does anyone know whether TURBO-TAX Timmy Geitner has sold his house ?

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2010-05-21 09:52:13

Unpossible - Maryland, DC, and NoVa are the Land of the Eternal Bubble. Everyone is rich here, everyone makes far more than the median household income, and everyone needs to buy the most expensive house they cannot afford - today! Or, so I’m told…

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2010-05-20 06:04:14

“Even people who are not underwater are holding out” for the prices they want.

“As a result of the comprehensive public awareness of mortgage issues, ‘most believe that it will be harder to buy a house in the future, especially for their children.’”

The assumptions of some members Generation Greed. We’ll force the next generation to be worse off so we can get what we feel we deserve, but we are upset that our own children will be worse off.

Of course, many don’t demonstrate much care for their own children either.

Here’s some advice for the children. The housing purchase is your one chance to take back some financial well being from those who came before. Don’t buy unless it is the sweetest deal imaginable for you, and the biggest disappointment possible for them.

Comment by cereal
2010-05-20 06:13:59

A few more weeks of these little red numbers next to their stock tickers ought to pry some more houses from the FB’s hands.

Comment by arizonadude
2010-05-20 13:33:59

Wheeling out the ppt again today to talk about new finance regualtion.

 
 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2010-05-20 11:26:57

“Don’t buy unless it is the sweetest deal imaginable for you, and the biggest disappointment possible for them.”

Well said, great job!

 
 
Comment by snake charmer
2010-05-20 06:55:42

One view of ownership, articulated by James H. Carr of the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, is that there should be ‘no lending without ensuring that the borrower is able to repay.’”
______________________________

You know we’re completely up s__t creek when common sense is presented as a radical idea at a seminar that people probably paid to attend.

Comment by michael
2010-05-20 07:16:44

what’s that quote about the truth being revolutionary?

Comment by snake charmer
2010-05-20 07:46:17

It’s from Orwell: in a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

 
 
Comment by Frank Hague
2010-05-20 11:03:58

That quote jumped out at me as well, but we all know that it is unlikely that the banks and the government return to common sense lending standards, because it would mean a decrease in the pool of potential buyers.

I think we are closer to the beginning than the end of the unwinding of this bubble, because there are just to many institutions and people that have a vested interest in keeping housing prices above where actual incomes can support.

Comment by Jim A.
2010-05-20 12:26:57

…closer to the beginning than the end… As measured by the calendar or the cash register? I mean we have years to go before we return to normalcy, but price-wise some markets have price declines of around 50%, so they’re closer to the bottom than the top.

 
 
 
Comment by michael
2010-05-20 07:09:08

“…but mentally I’m not there right now to write that kind of check,’ said Sparacino, a lawyer.”

love how they add…”a lawyer” at the end. cuz if he’s a lawyer…he must be right…right? anyone? beullar?

Comment by mikey
2010-05-20 09:28:35

“love how they add…”a lawyer” at the end. cuz if he’s a lawyer…he must be right…right? anyone? beullar”

Even sharks have to keep moving or they’re dead meat.

 
 
Comment by shelby
2010-05-20 07:55:55

“And that means the Haymarket Bypass is stuck in the concept phase until the housing market recovers well enough that demand for new property in western Prince William County surges again.”

Bbbuuutt - wait a tick-

Haymarket is a DC ‘burb !! (ok, it is way out there!)

A lot of homes got Contracts out there before the 8K expired -
Lets watch Sales grind to a crawl the rest of the Summer now that the “free money” is gone

And DC is doing great - right!!! We still have all the jobs & everyone is moving here - heh, heh…….

Just ignore the unemployment figures here & the layoffs - everyone has a secure Gov job - right???

Poor “owners” that are upside down in this area that have jobs that require Security Clearance can’t go Short Sale or Foreclosure - if they lose the Clearance they lose their job

….and there are literally thousands of these folks in the greater DC RE Market

Comment by VegasBob
2010-05-20 09:07:14

These mortgages are like millstones around the FB’s necks.

And the economic news this morning is lousy. Unemployment claims up, leading economic indicators down, and Philly Fed index mediocre.

I think the wheels are falling off Bernokio & Co.’s “nascent recovery” bus.

Any time you begin to doubt the existence of a perma-recession, ask yourself the $64 question:

If this economic “recovery” is real, why isn’t the Federal Reserve taking steps to normalize short term interest rates?

The simple answer is that there is no “recovery” - this so-called “recovery” is a fraud…

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2010-05-21 09:58:41

Ah, another member of the Maryland / NoVa / DC Eternal Housing Bubble region! Good to see you!

Yes, this is indeed the realm of all perfection, where everyone has a great job, makes infinite money, and should own a few homes - the most costly, the better.

I mean, sure the budget is a mess, jobs are vanishing, and all that, but everyone is still moving here and buying unaffordable housing with magic funny money… Right? Anyone? Argh!

Good point about how many people can’t go Shore Sale or Foreclosure… But they’ll keep on paying to keep housing unaffordable in the vain hope that somebody will buy their alligator at a higher price.

 
 
Comment by Reuven
2010-05-20 08:23:54

“Efforts to increase homeownership generally and among minority groups long kept out of the market were not wrong and did not lead to the housing crisis, Carr said. Excesses in the mortgage industry that led to the debacle ‘were not designed to increase sustainable homeownership,’ he said. ‘If innovation in financing is simply designed only to create billions of dollars in profits, that is not innovation.’”

This is slippery-speak. It wasn’t efforts to increase homeownership among select minority groups that did it, it was efforts to increase homeownership among POOR people that did.

(I say ’select’ minority groups because even though I am a Jewish Homosexual American of Mid Eastern origin, I get nothing but a bill from Uncle Sam. Surprisingly, non-Jews from the mid east…the same color as me…are considered ‘people of color’ by the liberals in this country. Apparently religion can affect your skin color)

Comment by mikey
2010-05-20 09:22:31

Yeah, I’m an fuzzy white straight Scot/Norwegian/American heathen pagan minority with a tan that isn’t exactly twiddling my tumbs awaiting their “Christian Rapture” either.

The PTB bill me too.

;)

 
 
Comment by Ben Jones
2010-05-20 08:47:27

‘Berman and his wife Hillary briefly tried to sell their Bethesda home in January. They changed their minds after concluding that it would not fetch the $899,000 they wanted. They are renting it out instead. ‘We wanted to let the market come back a little,’ said Berman, a financial planner’

If they are renting it out, I suppose they are living in yet another ‘investment.’ 900k isn’t enough? Chase that market down, baby…

Comment by shelby
2010-05-20 08:56:41

not too mention that they aren’t getting the note fully paid renting it out and pray to God the renters don’t tear the 900K place to shreds

that happened to our pals who “kept their old house” to rent until the “market comes back” - had to spend 10K to clean up/re-carpet /remove the smell after their first “wonderful” renters moved out!!

Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-05-20 09:04:48

Did they put it on the market then? Or did they play Renter Roulette again?

The problem with these kinds of landlords is they’re looking for absolute top dollar, and wind up renting to a bunch of single guys/girls who are roommating together or people who fully intend to sublet out every available horizontal surface and turn it into a flop house.

You want stable couples/families/etc. in the house, and those types are going to be very careful about the price they’ll pay.

Pricing slightly under market rent gives you a wide selection of applicants from which you can choose the ones least likely to thrash the place. When you overprice, you only get people who have a scheme to cover the rent.

Comment by aNYCdj
2010-05-20 10:35:09

SF:

THAT should be plastered all over the place for those wanting or forced to be landlords
—————
When you overprice, you only get people who have a scheme to cover the rent.

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Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-05-20 11:00:34

I have known several landlords. The long term landlord (15+ years) underpriced and carefully screened. One that was a new landlord wound up with 5 20 something white collar workers constantly smoking pot in his house. When he got them out, he wised up and rented to a stably employed single mother and her parents. Same number of people in the house (5), but they do the weeding and lawn care because the granddad likes doing it. The house was immaculate when I went over to help him replace the old water heater. A third got out of the landlording business after their rental company let some con artists into the house who then tried a “slip and fall” lawsuite against them. They sold their house in Vallejo about 6 months before it went bankrupt.

Landlording is not for the faint-hearted.

 
Comment by DinOR
2010-05-20 12:16:48

sfbb,

Informative lessons there. I knew I’d never hack it as a LL. Anyone w/ a mil. background is bound to be wanting lots of “inspections” and likely won’t suffer abuse of the prop. with patience.

 
Comment by Jim A.
2010-05-20 12:29:11

Or a scheme to NOT cover the rent.

 
Comment by In Montana
2010-05-20 12:58:05

I considered renting out the house I had before I got married but my husband really fought it, because he used to manage a low-income apartment complex.

 
 
Comment by DinOR
2010-05-20 11:04:58

“sublet out every available horizontal surface” LOL!

( You haven’t been there ‘yourself’ a time or two have you? ) Well I have. Thought that only happened in military towns?

Oh and we’ve just -got- to come up with a new term other than FB. It’s just not working for me any more. It implies ( firstly ) that they truly ‘are’ F’d. I’m just not seeing that, if anything they’re in the cat bird seat.

Secondly, this whole ‘borrower’ thing. Sure, they borrowed, at least initially, but isn’t part of the definition of borrowing that you’ll be actually paying it back? I don’t have a clue as to what the new definition should be, but clearly this is one that’s out lived it’s purpose. I’m open to suggestions!

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Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-05-20 13:30:02

College livin’ is the same way. Rent an apartment/house and stack it as full of guys as you can. Nevermind that it ceases to be a viable place to study or sleep because you’ll soon be mastering the ancient Tai Chi art of the Keg Stand.

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-05-20 12:46:49

I hear ya on the flophouse notion, sfbubblebuyer. Happened just around the corner from me.

[Ooooo, I've been itchin' to tell this story on the HBB for several days. One last scratch-of-the-itch and here I go!]

House around the corner was sold for $159k back in ‘05. Buyer was a construction guy who was busy-busy with condo conversions in the Catalina Foothills. (That’s the ritzy part of the Tucson Valley.)

He told me that he expected to be busy-busy for years to come. Well, sorry, Charlie (not his real name). The air started hissing out of the Tucson condo bubble a short time later.

After fixing the place up and living in it with his girlfriend, he decided to sell. That was in ‘07, and it was only on the market for a month or so. Didn’t sell. So, he started renting it out.

At first, he had outstanding tenants. Matter of fact, we neighbors still miss them.

Then came the louts. Who trashed the place. Turned it into a flophouse. Threw wild parties. Guy across the street (who’s a neighborhood gadfly like I am) practically had 911 and the city council ward office on speed dial. He was calling in that many complaints.

What finally made the louts go away was the fact that the place got foreclosed on last year. It was recently sold to a real estate agent and her handyman husband. Who did things like enclose the carport and turn it into a garage.

Agent invited my gadfly neighbor in for a look-see right after she bought it. According to the neighbor, the copper was stripped out of the place. Which meant that the new owners had to get it re-wired and re-plumbed. They hired contractors to do the work, and you can pretty well imagine what that cost.

Mr. Gadfly’s mom and I had a conversation earlier this week. Mom says that there was an open house on Sunday. And, get this, the asking price for this now-fixed up house is down to $130,000. That’s after two fixup jobs in less than five years.

Ouch.

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Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-05-20 13:32:20

Hopefully it will get sold to a decent sort and not re-flop housed. A flip that flops?

 
Comment by DinOR
2010-05-20 14:32:16

Arizona Slim,

Hilarious comedy of errors. Still, I’d almost rather the rowdy crowd ( as long as they clean up after the night before ) than the insular types where… you’re never really sure what they’re up to?

 
 
 
Comment by michael
2010-05-20 11:39:55

I would bet my life…ney…my eternal soul that the super genius’ here are not anywhere close to generating positive cash flow on the rental.

Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-05-20 13:33:42

I know a guy who bought in 1999 in the SF Bay Area. He just about breaks even with rent vs. price right now. At least until something breaks, and then he’s in the red for the month.

People who bought after that have no chance.

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Comment by bink
2010-05-20 08:58:29

My landlord couldn’t sell at $900k three years ago, dropped it to $850k, and then decided to rent to me for far less. Now that I’m leaving an identical house in the neighborhood is for sale at $800k and hasn’t gotten an offer.. so they’re renting this one again. This is three blocks from the metro, so I guess we’re making some marginal progress here.

Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-05-20 09:37:16

Gotta love people chasing the market down.

 
Comment by polly
2010-05-20 11:24:22

Bink, which metro stop, if you don’t mind.

Comment by bink
2010-05-20 12:08:06

polly: Clarendon.

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Comment by mikey
2010-05-20 10:48:57

b..b..but Ben, it’s in Bethesda and every “smart” person knows that Bethesda is the Hub of the Universe with “smart” wealthy people.

“Bethesda is one of the most affluent and highly educated locales in the country, placing first in Forbes list of America’s most educated small towns[1] and eleventh on CNNMoney.com’s list of top-earning American towns.”
Wikipedia

It’s different there and nothing can ever hurt them because they have an expensive invisible “smart” fence surrounding and protecting Fortress Bethesda.

;)

Comment by Jim A.
2010-05-20 12:32:32

Course it’s not really a “town,” just a CDP.

 
Comment by Pondering the Mess
2010-05-21 10:02:29

What I love about the local aspects to the Bubble is the strange “logic” that follows as:

1) Jobs in the Maryland / NoVa / DC region are more secure and pay well.

2) Therefore, everyone must make huge amounts of money (even though the actual stats say that this is not true.)

3) Therefore, since everyone makes a huge amount of money with a secure job, everyone should buy a job at a far higher multiple of their salary than normal. (Huh?!)

I can half forgive point 2, which is just people being unable to look up facts, but the strange logic that “you make more money than most people, so you should get even deeper in debt than most people.” is just insane, yet that is the “wisdom” down here.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-05-20 09:34:26

The VIX climbed Mount Everest in Fall 2008 and it appears that a second attempt at the summit is currently underway.

For proper perspective, click on the 5yr view.

Comment by bink
2010-05-20 10:39:30

I’m hearing the price is right yodel song in my head right now.

Comment by sleepless_near_seattle
2010-05-20 11:35:26

Ah, memories of many a sick day as a child. I thought I was the only one who remembered that sound.

Comment by DinOR
2010-05-20 11:55:57

sleepless!

Needed to ask you, or any of the PNW posters, my good friend finally… sold his home ( of 24 years ) in Tacoma and they moved into his wife’s, deceased mother’s house in Lakewood, WA.

They were glad to no longer be straddling (2) residences and filled two dumpsters on their way toward cleaning up both. There were also issues of caring for mom, the kids etc. Anyway, I looked it up on Zillow and the place is huge ( 5 bdr ) but what kind of neighborhood is that?

I tried to be supportive ( “Hey, that’s a nice area!” ) but all I got was a pffftt. It’s not ‘that’ bad is it? Anyone?

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Comment by GrizzlyBear
2010-05-20 14:46:24

Forgive me, but most of Lakewood is an absolute armpit. I’m not kidding. There’s a reason COPS is filmed there.

 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-05-20 10:42:16

Is a 25.91% spike in the VIX ‘normal’?

VIX = 44.47 +9.15 +25.91%

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-05-20 10:43:23

That is, 25%+ just today

must be time to buy the dip?

Comment by arizonadude
2010-05-20 13:36:28

Dont go near this dip yet.There is no capitulation yet.Wait till there is real pain.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2010-05-20 22:46:07

Wait until everyone says that stocks are a terrible investment, AND real estate is a terrible investment, as well. That will be time to start investing in risky assets once again. Meanwhile, enjoy the mild deflation on your zero percent money market returns!

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by dc_renter
2010-05-20 09:44:58

ugh. DC Metro area is freezing all teachers’ salaries…for years! We’re told not to expect anything for awhile. Yet fed gov’t employees who *already* make more than most, get their colas. Defense contractors are raking it in..the techies are raking it in…people are selling 600k+ homes and buying them. Certain populations have been marginalized in this mess…not fair.

Comment by Timmy Boy
2010-05-20 10:28:05

“Fair”??

What is this funny word of which you speak?

 
Comment by bink
2010-05-20 10:41:01

Even given the excessive compensation for some in the area, prices are still too high. They’ll get theirs soon enough.

 
Comment by 2banana
2010-05-20 11:14:05

Their freezes are coming too. The only difference is that teachers are paid by property taxes and the other federal hogs are paid by income taxes.

It is harder to fudge the property tax numbers.

But compared to the average wage earner in the private sector - you are still pretty well off. Besides no pay increases (or pay cuts), they are absorbing huge medical expenses and NO pensions.

Comment by dc_renter
2010-05-20 11:22:26

Pensions?? I have a sinking feeling that when its time for me to retire, the pension fund will be fully depleted. There have been hints at this in the Post..

Guess what the numbskulls managing them invested in??? Go ahead, take a wild guess..

Comment by polly
2010-05-20 11:28:37

Euro denominated synthetic CDO’s? Greek debt? Northern European tourist futures (uninsured for volcano losses)?

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Comment by bink
2010-05-20 12:10:42

They’ve probably moved on to commercial real estate by now. Gotta get while the gettin’s good.

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Comment by In Colorado
2010-05-20 11:22:21

the techies are raking it in

Maybe in DC. Out here techie salaries are flat, flat, flat while while the great offshoring continues.

And teachers in out town got a pat CUT.

Comment by ChrisO
2010-05-20 12:41:38

I live in Arlington 22202, and the selling prices here are still crazy. And houses are still selling at close to asking prices. The problem is that Northern Virginia is infested with folks who suck off the federal teat: bureaucrats, lawyers and defense contractors who all make insane $100k+ salaries and haven’t been suffering layoffs (yet). Households with dual $100k his-and-hers incomes can afford to overspend on a “charming” 1940s Arlington crapshack…or tear it down and build a McMansion shoehorned in on a tiny lot.

This is all inside the Beltway. These folks probably don’t even visit Woodbridge, Manassas or Gainesville, let alone buy property there. This has led to a weird situation, where housing in the newer areas outside the Beltway has crashed and can now be gotten for more reasonable prices (albeit not dirt cheap), while the aging crapola inside the Beltway commands premium prices. The horrible commutes here have helped make this situation possible.

Unless the government-related sector crashes, I don’t see things changing soon. And we know the Obama crowd is committed to full employment for bureaucrats…

Comment by DinOR
2010-05-20 14:36:13

ChrisO,

If the wife and I are watching House Hunters and it’s anywhere near… DC..? It’s back to channel surfing and arguing. Better that than the depression that comes from watching newbies get raked over the coals.

DC reminds me a lot of a gyro-compass. Once a gyro exceeds a certain RPM ( it creates it’s own gravity seperate from the earth’s )

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Comment by dc_renter
2010-05-20 15:23:39

i live in 22201. It *is* different here. North Arlington is untouchable has experienced a hiccup in all this mess. Gov’t employees, defense contractors, all make 100K+…and since this area is all about work, work, work, that means both partners work - just get a nanny or stick the kid(s) in daycare.

Sick sick sick of waiting for things to change here - ain’t gonna happen.

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Comment by Professor Bear
2010-05-20 10:46:02

There has never been a better time to use a low interest 15-year fixed rate loan to buy a foreclosure investment property!

Mortgages
May 20, 2010, 1:37 p.m. EDT

Mortgage rates fall to lowest levels this year
15-year fixed-rate mortgage, 5-year ARM hit record lows: Freddie Mac
By Amy Hoak, MarketWatch

CHICAGO (MarketWatch) — Mortgage rates dropped again this week, with both the 15-year fixed-rate mortgage and the 5-year adjustable-rate mortgage falling to record lows, according to Freddie Mac’s weekly survey of conforming mortgage rates.

The recent drop in fixed-rate mortgage rates is due largely to the economic crisis in Europe, said Keith Gumbinger, vice president of HSH Associates, a publisher of consumer loan information.

“The global flight-to-safety away from risky (or at least less predictable) assets and into the more sturdy investments like U.S. Treasurys is driving down those yields and dragging fixed mortgage rates down along with them,” Gumbinger said in an email message.

 
Comment by 2banana
2010-05-20 10:58:42

‘For Farah Jiminez, it is less a matter of money than of temperament. ‘Not everyone is prepared for the responsibility,’ said Jiminez, executive director of the Mt. Airy USA community-development corporation in Philadelphia. ‘As housing counselors, we see this all the time. We have clients who want to know when they can get in a house. Then we have clients who want to know what they can do to ensure they can stay in the house.’”

This used to be called racist. How dare anyone say who can buy a house. Why, it hurt minorities the most. Janet Reno promised investigations to anyone who questioned this logic. Barney Frank and Dodd made it campaign platforms. They bashed anyone who questioned them. Etc.

 
Comment by Paige
2010-05-20 14:25:40

Totally off topic from this specific post, but I used to follow this blog religiously 1 1/2 yrs ago and wanted to stop by and see if it’s still going. I’m so impressed and always enjoyed and appreciated what you wrote and the work that went into it. I think I was reading this blog BEFORE the media, etc. would admit there was a problem.

We bought a home in the Riverside,CA area 1 1/2 yrs ago. We had made 20 offers all that summer/fall before, when everything fell into place for this house. I was doing my weekly drive through neighborhoods (yes, I was obsessed: ) when I saw people moving. 2 wks later the house was listed and we made an offer the same day. We LOVE this home! We bought it for almost half of what it was at the top of the market. OF course, we occasionally wonder if we bought too soon, but for us, everything fell into place (money, right school district, etc) and the timing was right. In looking online, prices seem to have dropped of very slightly from what we paid, but enough to freak my husband out and give us regrets.

Anyway….Thank you for all that you do with this blog. The information has been beyond helpful and brilliant. You should write a book!

Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-05-20 16:22:46

Anyway….Thank you for all that you do with this blog. The information has been beyond helpful and brilliant. You should write a book!

Muchas gracias from southern Arizona! And, people, what do you think? Shall we apply our witty wordsmithing to the task of writing a book?

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-05-20 22:44:08

I am always heartened by stories like yours of people who thought independently about what housing decision would be prudent and apropos to their own personal situation, without regard to what the rest of the herd of humans is doing about it. Our country could use more independent-minded individuals like yourselves. Congrats!

 
 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2010-05-20 14:49:50

“The rise in unemployment and depletion of personal savings accounts are also contributing factors, he said. ‘I was starting to feel old looking at the birth dates on the driver’s licenses for most of our homebuyer settlement clients last year. Now that the $8,000 credit has expired for contracts not signed by April 30, the banks may have a more difficult time selling the properties they are now taking back by foreclosure, especially those that are above the $300,000 price range,’ McLister said.”

I can’t count how many times over the course of the past year I have heard of barely pubescent first time home buyers. I have a hard time believing in the financial stability of this demographic. Lenders are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Looks like foreclosures will continue on into the foreseeable future.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-05-20 17:05:49

And to think that, during this same period of my life, I wasn’t the least bit interested in home ownership. I wanted to pedal my way around the United States. And I did.

So glad I wasn’t tied to a house back then.

Comment by bink
2010-05-20 17:38:09

Me neither. I was delighted to live in a roach infested studio apartment, sleeping on a ratty futon mattress with no furniture.

 
Comment by ACH
2010-05-20 20:14:14

I was rocking n’ rolling though my first oil boom in New Orleans at that age.

Wicked, wicked party! I wish there was reincarnation. I’d come back and do it again.

Roidy

 
 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb-thrower
2010-05-20 22:40:19

How about if the Congress passes a temporary measure to shoot on sight any banking industry lobbyist who tries to interfere with final implementation of the financial reform bill?

It sounds like the most important element, the breakup of systemically risky trusts into not-systemically risky pieces, has failed, but perhaps with a few more stock market sessions like today’s, that problem will cure itself.

The Financial Times
Senate approves Wall Street reform bill

By Tom Braithwaite in Washington

Published: May 20 2010 17:12 | Last updated: May 21 2010 02:16

The US Senate approved a sweeping overhaul of financial regulation on Thursday evening, paving the way for President Barack Obama to sign it into law and forcing big banks into major restructuring.

Chris Dodd, the Democratic Senate banking committee chairman and sponsor of the regulatory reform bill, celebrated a victory that was made possible after four Republicans backed the bill in a 59-39 vote. Two Democrats voted against it.

The legislation – the main response to the financial crisis – bans deposit-taking banks from proprietary trading, introduces a consumer financial protection bureau to police the sale of credit products and empowers the government to seize a failing systemically important firm.

Members of Congress are now set for a final period of haggling, and a final frenzied lobbying effort from the financial industry, as they merge the Senate bill with a House version that passed last year.

“The House and Senate have now each passed strong bills that protect consumers, limit risk-taking by large institutions and addresses the problem of [banks that are] ‘too big to fail’,” said Tim Geithner, Treasury secretary, in a statement. “As we move ahead, I look forward to working with the House and Senate to produce a sensible, prudent reform bill that strengthens the American financial system and preserves our ability to innovate and compete in a global economy.”

 
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