July 8, 2010

Be Careful What You Wish For

The Vancouver Sun reports from Canada. “First-time homebuyers in British Columbia are opting for condominiums, not houses, unlike their counterparts in much of the rest of the country, according to a report by TD Canada Trust. A lot of buyers make the mistake of wanting their first home to be their dream home, said Barry Rathburn, manager of mobile mortgage specialists with TD Canada Trust on Vancouver Island. But saving up enough money for a down payment could take years. Even saving for five years -which 26 per cent of first-time homebuyers in B.C. said they did or plan to do -would mean saving about $30,000 every year for a decent down payment on a $500,000 or $600,000 house. ‘How many people can save $30,000 a year?’ Rathburn asks.”

“Rathburn also thinks it’s a bad idea to spend too much time saving to increase the down payment. Provided you have enough for a down payment, you should get into a home as soon as possible, he said. Because while you’re saving, the value of homes is going up and interest rates are going up, Rathburn said. ‘And you’re trying to save faster than those things are going up.’”

The Edmonton Sun in Canada. “The price of a single-family home in Edmonton is expected to fall slightly in the second half of the year as realtors grapple with a near-record number of properties for sale. There were 9,406 residential properties on the market in Edmonton at the end of June, close to the record of 9,913 set in September 2007, shortly before housing prices sank. Residential sales were down over 37% from a year earlier.”

“This comes after the value of single-family properties soared 7.5% over the first six months of the year. The Realtors Association of Edmonton is still forecasting a price increase of 5% this year. ‘In January, I made the comment that I really wished our inventory was a little bit higher, as we had some concerns that the low inventory rates might have some impact on prices as we moved forward in 2010,’ said Larry Westergard, president of the realtors association. ‘Well, the old adage is be careful what you wish for because as we come into the second half of the year, our inventories are cresting over 9,000 units, and they’re approaching the record levels that we saw in the fall of 2007.’”

The Montreal Gazette in Canada. “The value of building permits fell by a much-larger-than expected 10.8 per cent in May from April, slipping to $6 billion, Statistics Canada reported. ‘If there is hope for house prices in Canada, it lies in curtailing supply,’ Scotia Capital economist Derek Holt wrote. ‘That’s where any room for optimism lies in an otherwise bleak report that displayed widespread losses in value and volume terms within both the nonresidential and residential categories. It’s important to keep in mind the trend that has been in place, however, in that the volume of housing permits granted is still up 30 per cent from year-ago levels, and is focused upon single homes (up 46 per cent) versus multiples (up 18 per cent).’”

The Star Phoenix in Canada. “The value of building permits issued in the Saskatoon area during the past year has more than doubled from last year, says a report released by Statistics Canada. ‘This is good news for Saskatoon. I think it speaks to the kinds of things we’re seeing,’ said Alan Thomarat, executive director of the Saskatoon and Region Homebuilders’ Association.”

“Thomarat said robust population and wage growth in Saskatoon means this year’s rates may be the ‘new normal.’”

CapitalVue News on China. “The total supply of land in 103 cities doubled year-on-year to 203.36 million square meters in the first half of 2010, reports China Business News. The average floor price of land in the 103 cities dropped nine percent in the first half of the year from the second half of 2009 to 1,863 yuan per square meter.”

“There were 91,249 houses available for sale in Beijing as of July 5, of which 60,563 units were forward delivery residential houses, reports China Securities Journal. According to data from Centaline Real Estate, the number of transactions of forward delivery houses in Beijing decreased 30.1 percent year-on-year to 59,386 units in the first half of 2010. Transactions of houses already built fell 46 percent year-on-year to 8,311 units in the first half of the year. Zhang Dawei, a researcher from Centaline, said that more than 70 developments in Beijing are offering discounts at present.”

Bloomberg on China. “Property prices in 70 Chinese cities rose 12.4 percent in May, the second-fastest pace on record. Shanghai’s new-home sales fell 70 percent from a year ago in June, Changjiang Securities Co. said in a report. Shanghai’s sales of new homes fell 57 percent in the first six months of the year on government measures to cool the property market, Shanghai Uwin Real Estate Information Services Co. said. The first-half sales were the lowest in five years. New home prices in the first half rose 48 percent from a year earlier to 21,008 yuan ($3,100) per square meter, according to the Uwin report.”

“China’s home prices are set to fall as much as 20 percent in a ‘healthy’ correction, said Michael Klibaner, head of China research at Jones Lang LaSalle Inc. China’s property boom is ‘cash-driven’ rather than ‘leverage-fuelled,’ which means there’s only a low chance of the type of forced selling that exacerbated the U.S. housing market collapse, he said in a Bloomberg Television interview.”

The Global Post on China. “The banking regulator has clamped down on sketchy lending practices that allowed banks to ignore loan limits and fund risky ventures, the Bank of Beijing confirmed Tuesday.”

“According to the reports, the China Banking Regulatory Commission suddenly halted use of bank-trust wealth management products Friday afternoon. The bank-trust products let banks use trust funds to give out loans primarily to local governments through backdoor procedures which keep the money off the banks’ books. Through this process, the banks not only get to skirt the government’s regulations limiting loan outflows, but they also throw all risk of bank-trust product default onto the investors’ shoulders.”

“The tightening control on mortgages and local government lending led to deficient cash flow of property developers and local government financing vehicles (LGFVs), which have stretched hard to get new lending by alternatively less controlled ways such as bank-trust offerings, said Hu Yaokun, financing & banking partner of Adfaith Management Consulting.”

“The possibility of sliding housing prices and the skyrocketing debt of LGFVs have made bank-trusts incredibly vulnerable, Hu said. The debt ratio of LGFVs is as high as 364.77 percent in some provinces, according to the National Audit Office.”

The Sydney Morning Herald. “As the rest of the world smarted from the global financial crisis, it seemed that boisterously capitalist Hong Kong had landed a blockbuster property deal. In October, Henderson Land Development Co signed agreements to sell 25 units at a luxury apartment building - including a 6,158 square feet five-bedroom duplex with a whopping price tag of nearly $US57 million ($A66.87 million). At the time, it was believed to be Asia’s most expensive property by square foot at nearly $US9,200. ($A10,793).”

“Eight months later, Henderson, whose chairman Lee Shau-kee was ranked No 22 on this year’s Forbes billionaire list, announced in mid-June that 20 of the 25 deals, including the record-breaking flat, fell through. The usually critical corporate governance activist David Webb said this is likely a case of real-estate speculation - not illegal behaviour.”

“Webb said a middleman likely snapped up the 20 properties but failed to find buyers for them. ‘Unless someone can prove collusion or a connection between the buyers and the seller, I don’t see any issue,’ he said.”

The Move Channel in New Zealand. “Finance Minister Bill English spoke to a room full of business leaders and outlined his assessment of the New Zealand economy. New Zealand’s housing market, along with Australia’s, was overpriced by international measures, higher than China’s, and would likely be ‘damp’ for some time, he said. Many commentators have predicted that China is in the midst of a property bubble.”

“‘By any international measure, our housing market it still way overpriced. Ours and Australia’s are even more expensive than China’s. Is it going to stay that way? I would like to hear the case as to why it would,’ English said.”

The Marlborough Express in New Zealand. “It’s a great time to to buy a first home in Marlborough, according to real estate agents. Harcourts Marlborough principal Mark Davis said there was more than a year’s worth of housing stock listed in the region, and a new sense of affordability in the market. The drawback is homeowners may struggle to sell in a flooded market.”

“Trends were definitely soft, with about 70 sales a month for the past 12 months in Marlborough, half the number of sales taking place two years ago, Mr Davis said. Houses could still be sold with the right advice and realistic expectations, but vendors who did not need to sell should think about whether their property should remain listed, he said.”

“Bayleys Marlborough real estate agent Glenn Dick said there was still an increase in properties being put up for sale, fuelling the over-supply. He said sellers should seriously consider whether they needed to sell before advertising property. ‘It’s giving buyers too much opportunity to not commit [to a sale].’”

Dynamic Business in Australia. “Housing affordability has continued to worsen over the past year, with first home buyers needing on average 4.5 years to save for a house deposit, up from 3.7 years. There are 26 Local Government Areas (LGAs) – in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth – where it would take a first home buyer couple on average earnings more than a decade to save a house deposit.”

“‘Australia’s booming property market is a double-edged sword,’ said Bankwest Retail Chief Executive, Vittoria Shortt. ‘While it’s clearly of enormous benefit to established home owners it’s the complete opposite for many of their children. Many potential first home buyers are facing long periods in the rental market.’”

“In the past year, the time needed to save a deposit has increased in every capital city. In the Perth area of Peppermint Grove, it would take 42 years to save a 20 per cent deposit – the longest in the country.”

The Coffs Coast Advocate in Australia. “For Tjirra Francis, a 21-year-old nursing student at Southern Cross University, the dream of owning her own home seems to be slipping further and further away – and she’s not alone. ‘If I need to save $80,000 for a deposit, I won’t be able to buy a house for the next 10 years,’ she said. ‘Its hard because I had to move from home as soon as I finished my HSC for work and uni – I have to rent and pay my uni bills so saving isn’t easy. I’m basically paying someone else’s mortgage.’”

Australia News. “Family First Leader Senator Steve Fielding says Bankwest’s latest report into housing proves that the Federal Government needs to do more to ease our housing affordability crisis. Senator Fielding said that the report’s findings, which show that it is taking almost a year longer to save for a deposit, means that people are being forced to flush dead money down the rental drain.”

“Senator Fielding wants the Government to set up an Accessing Super Scheme, like the Canadian Home Buyers’ Plan, which would allow first home buyers to access $15,000 of their superannuation so they can use it for part of a deposit on a house. ‘Owning your home is the great Australian dream and the government should be doing all that they can to keep that dream alive. Instead of just handing out government grants and causing property prices to skyrocket, this scheme lets first home buyers access more of their own money so they can put it to good use,’ Senator Fielding said.”

The Camden Advertiser in Australia. “Doug Kerle, an audio-visual technician, bought a unit in Ryde two months ago. He saved for seven years to buy it and put aside half his earnings for the past three years to build the deposit. The 26-year-old, who worked 50-hour weeks and avoided travel to save, said he still could not have done so if he had not been living with his parents.”

“”If I’d had to pay for rent and food, you’d be looking at $300 a week,’ he said. ‘You couldn’t save.”’

The Irish Post. “Ireland might be out of recession but the black cloud that overshadowed the Celtic Tiger is yet to pass. Recent media reports suggest that about 60,000 people have left the Republic in search of employment. According to the Central Statistics Office Ireland’s unemployment rate jumped to a 16-year high of 13.4 per cent in June. The number of people claiming benefits has also hit new heights.”

“Ireland, which has been hit by unemployment, a deflated property bubble and a banking crisis, is one of the last eurozone nations to return to growth. Irish Times economics editor Dan O’Brien predicts further job losses, particularly in the construction sector. ‘The construction sector has shrunk massively,’ he said. ‘In the first three months of the year, quarterly housing completions plumbed depths recorded only twice before in the 35-year history of the data series.’”

“‘In April, they fell further, to stand at 1,166, almost one-tenth of their monthly peak at the end of 2006. Despite this, the industry still has a way to go before it hits bottom,’ he said.”

The Irish Independent. “Homeowners who are unable meet their mortgage repayments should be encouraged to voluntarily hand their home back to the bank, an expert group on mortgage arrears has recommended. The group’s interim recommendations do not contain any proposals on forcing banks to write off mortgage debt. Finance Minister Brian Lenihan rejected suggestions the group’s recommendations were ‘too little, too late.’”

“Taoiseach Brian Cowen said the new measures would ensure an end to penalties or arrears charges for those taking part in the arrears resolution process. But Fine Gael TD Michael Ring accused the Greens of joining Fianna Fail in ‘betraying’ homeowners. ‘As the Taoiseach and his cronies lined up at the announcement, were any of them really thinking about the plight of the 33,000 households who cannot pay their mortgage and the 250,000 people in negative equity?’ the Fine Gael spokesman on social welfare asked. ‘This watered-down, half-baked and hollow report adds insult to injury for these households who can thank the Taoiseach for their current plight.’”




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72 Comments »

Comment by 2banana
2010-07-08 08:32:44

“Rathburn also thinks it’s a bad idea to spend too much time saving to increase the down payment. Provided you have enough for a down payment, you should get into a home as soon as possible, he said. Because while you’re saving, the value of homes is going up and interest rates are going up, Rathburn said. ‘And you’re trying to save faster than those things are going up.’”

And home prices ALWAYS go up. Better get in now before you are priced out forever…

Why do Canadians ignore what has happened in the country just below them? Is it different there :-)

Comment by In Colorado
2010-07-08 08:54:24

Well, it is a lot colder in Canada. Does that count as “different”

 
Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-07-08 08:54:44

If they acknowledged it, that would be too close to pointing it out, which is too close to rubbing our nose in it, which is too close to being rude.

They’re just being polite.

 
Comment by JohnF
2010-07-08 13:28:55

Because while you’re saving, the value of homes is going up and interest rates are going up, Rathburn said. ‘And you’re trying to save faster than those things are going up.’”

Uh……when interest rates go up, home prices usually go down. Higher monthly payment = less house you can buy = lower prices paid.

Mr. Rathburn needs to take some basic economics courses…..

Comment by MacAttack
2010-07-15 13:35:07

No he doesn’t. His potential customers do.

 
 
Comment by 45north
2010-07-08 21:02:09

Why do Canadians ignore what has happened in the country just below them?

because the government, the banks, the media and the real estate have formed a common cause to keep most people from realizing what is happening.

The government has loaned money to CMHC to directly purchase mortgages from the banks, in addition CMHC insures most mortgages in Canada. In April CMHC slightly tightened the rules for mortgages. The Conservative Party needs the appearance of prosperity to stay in power. The opposition understand and acquiesce. Michael Ignatieff is missing-in-action. The banks are not going to complain, they write mortgages and collect fees without risk. The media is influenced by advertising dollars directly from real estate agents and from suppliers such as Sears or Home Depot.

Yes what’s happened in the US ought to be a lesson but not if the powers-that-be can help it. I’m thinking that the gig is about up.

 
 
Comment by 2banana
2010-07-08 08:36:48

“Ireland, which has been hit by unemployment, a deflated property bubble and a banking crisis, is one of the last eurozone nations to return to growth.

They are behind Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal????

 
Comment by Eddie
2010-07-08 08:40:41

Average Detached Home prices in Vancouver:

1980: $100K
1990: $230K
2000: $400K
2010: $850K

I think Mr. Rathburn has a point.

Comment by In Colorado
2010-07-08 08:56:51

You forgot 2020: <850K

Comment by Eddie
2010-07-08 10:10:17

Maybe yes, maybe no.

There were a lot of prediction of a crash 10, 20 and 30 years ago too.

Comment by In Colorado
2010-07-08 10:24:52

So you think that it will reach 1600K by 2020? I’m sure the wealthy Japanese thought that the sky was the limit on their propserous and overcrowded islands. That is until it wasn’t.

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Comment by yogurt
2010-07-08 12:20:09

“There were a lot of prediction of a crash 10, 20 and 30 years ago too.”

30 years ago was 1980. In 1981 one of the biggest RE busts in Canadian history took place in Vancouver, 50% real decline in 4 years. Prices adjusted for inflation at the top in 1981 were far lower than today.

Pick your straw men more carefully.

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Comment by DebtinNation
2010-07-08 12:20:25

They’re just kicking the Canada down the road.

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Comment by Blue Skye
2010-07-08 12:56:54

In German, “Canada” is awful close to “there’s noone home”.

 
Comment by pressboardbox
2010-07-08 16:34:51

if a canadian bubble popped alone in the woods, would anybody hear?

 
 
 
 
Comment by Jimmy Jazz
2010-07-08 09:30:55

High-end Chinese money fuels a lot of the Vancouver bubble. A LOT of wealthy families from Hong Kong started buying around 1990 when the Chinese takeover from the UK was in the planning stages. Interesting comments here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37963066/ns/business-bloomberg_businessweek/

Comment by In Colorado
2010-07-08 10:22:23

What percentage of Vancouverites are wealthy Aisans? 10%? I’ll bet that at the end of the day that the overwhelming majority are ordinary Canadians who earn ordinary wages.

 
Comment by Eddie
2010-07-08 10:48:07

Yep and 20 years later still no crash. Those wealthy Chinese are still wealthy and can afford to own expensive property.

Comment by Ben Jones
2010-07-08 11:15:43

You know, I don’t ever see you do much than just take a contrary position for the sake of being contrary. Sure, you ignore all the lessons of the biggest RE crash in history, and lecture US? ‘Foreigners will buy all our houses, there’s never been a crash…’

FYI, Vancouver got slammed not that long ago. Ask the Olympic Village buyers what they think; I dare you! And there’s that pesky little problem of a Chinese property bubble.

No market can rely on ‘out-of-towners’ to support bubble prices, but go ahead and ignore what happened in Spain, Dubai, Miami, LA, and too many other places to list.

It’s really this simple; if a market has a bubble, it will fall. Canada has a bigger bubble than the US.

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Comment by GrizzlyBear
2010-07-08 12:04:28

The Vancouver market is in the initial stages of an absolutely epic collapse. Eddie is clueless.

 
Comment by Eddie
2010-07-09 03:52:31

Vancouver has had a steady upward climb in r/e prices for 30 years. To me that is not a bubble.

To me a bubble is a short term event like the .com bubble (1997-2000) or the the US housing bubble (2002-2006) or if you want to go back far enough the tulip bubble (1636-1637).

When you get to a 30 year time horizon, however, it is the new normal, not a bubble.

Condos, whether in a bubble or not, are a bad investment 99% of the time. Which is why I qualified my original statement with only mentioning detached home prices.

And yes foreigners have and are buying Vancouver r/e. Ever been to Vancouver? If you have you would have noticed that a good chunk of people there, are Chinese. And they are indeed buying the houses.

I have no dog in this fight personally. I don’t live in Vancouver, I have no intention to ever live in Vancouver. But I can look at the facts objectively and comment that I don’t see a bubble.

My sister married a Canuck and moved to to Toronto a couple of years ago. My bro-in-law is doing his residency at a hospital up there, one of the leading children’s hospitals in N. America. It’s the same story there. Prices are not at Vancouver levels, although the change in prices, percentage wise is almost identical to Vancouver. In 1980 $50K bought a house. Today that same house is $400K. The prediction of a real estate crash have been there forever as well. And yet no crash to speak of a and prices keep rising. Once again, after 30 years, it is the new norm.

 
Comment by Rob the happy renter
2010-07-10 03:20:51

Eddie that’s what you call inflation. Prices go up every year. In 1984 I made 6 dollars an hour today I make 20 dollars, doesn’t mean I’m a wealthy man every thing as increased in price. The main point is that you need to buy house when it’s at it’s low, for example when the Canadian market briefly tanked 3 years ago.

Secondly do you honest believe that in 5-10 years the average Vancouver crack shack will be worth 2.2 million (up from 1.1 million today)

House prices track inflation.

 
 
Comment by Dman
2010-07-08 12:25:35

“The price of a single-family home in Edmonton is expected to fall slightly in the second half of the year as realtors grapple with a near-record number of properties for sale.”

And so it begins….

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Comment by cactus
2010-07-08 08:42:33

I talked to a Canadian from Monteral who said prices were up 20% on single family homes, she worked as a debt bankrupcy para legal or whatever they call it in Monteral ? Said one can’t walk away from bad debt in Cananda like in CA with it’s non recourse loan law on primary home debt.

said there was no bubble in Canada

Comment by AmazingRuss
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-07-08 11:41:05

Awesome! I didn’t realize that Canada was finally starting to peak… The huge volume drop is the first sign.

What blows my mind is that Canada was able to remain in bubble-mentality for three or four years longer than the rest of the world, even with the rest of the world demonstrating that RE does not always go up. That lag is really interesting to me, and I have a hard time explaining it…

Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-07-08 11:51:02

Awesome! I didn’t realize that Canada was finally starting to peak… The huge volume drop is the first sign.

That’s exactly how things played out here in Tucson. I could see it firsthand on my bicycle rides around town during the summer of 2005.

Suddenly, there was a proliferation of “for sale” signs. It was as if they sprouted like the weeds do during our summer rainy season. And those signs stayed up for weeks, months, and in some cases, years.

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Comment by yogurt
2010-07-08 12:24:58

“That lag is really interesting to me, and I have a hard time explaining it…”

Canada’s “Conservative” government guarantees mortgage loans. If that were not the case the banks would have stopped lending when things got bad in the US. They’re not that stupid.

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Comment by Curt
2010-07-08 12:22:28

….said there was no bubble in Canada

Canada is different!

 
Comment by Rob the happy renter
2010-07-10 03:08:52

yes you can, it’s called bankruptcy. Give back the keys and move on with your life.

 
 
Comment by Dman
2010-07-08 08:55:56

“Senator Fielding said that the report’s findings, which show that it is taking almost a year longer to save for a deposit, means that people are being forced to flush dead money down the rental drain.”

Yeah, it’s much better to flush your money down a drain in a house that will eventually be worth half of what your paid for it.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-07-08 09:01:58

Here’s another problem with that drain analogy: If it’s a clogged drain in a rental property, you just call the landlord. And the landlord (or someone he or she hires) comes out to unclog your drain. No charge to you.

OTOH, if you’re a homeowner, well, it’s up to you to call the plumber and pay him or her. And I’m here to tell you that such adventures are not cheap.

Comment by Va Beyatch in Norfolk
2010-07-08 11:36:36

I call my landlords to fix the same problems over and over. If it was my property, I’d fix it myself and do it right.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-07-08 11:52:15

I’m with you, VA.

And, even though I’ve done more than a fair amount of “how much it cost” grumbling since Tuesday’s clog, I’m now sitting in an old house with clean-as-a-whistle drains.

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Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-07-08 09:23:29

What’s more interesting is Senator Fielding admitting that currency is kaput, dead as a doornail.

 
Comment by Jim A.
2010-07-08 10:40:09

I am SOOO tired of people characterizing rent money as wasted or thrown away. You got to live there didn’t you? It paid for a roof over your head, people. It you consider that wasted, you should also consider the interest, taxes, and insurance portions of your mortgage as wasted as well. Yes, in a normal market there ARE advantages to long term owneer occupation. But transaction costs are so high the buying just to buy only worked out during the heights of bubble appreciation. Absent atypicaly high inflation in house prices or rent, purchasing only makse sense if you will live there for nearly a decade or longer.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-07-08 11:19:37

Spot on, Jim. You are getting some utuility in return for either rent money or interest paid on the mortgage.

But somehow those who think of rent paid as “down the drain” fail to ever consider that the equivalent after-deduction portion of interest paid on the mortgage is also similarly flushed. The two are quite equivalent.

Comment by Va Beyatch in Norfolk
2010-07-08 11:37:50

Yea, but at the end of 6 years, the people buying from the bank really do have something to show for it. This is why I can’t wait for prices to continue to revert. As a renter, I don’t like renting. I hate the property management people. They are making a killing on me.

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Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-07-08 11:46:00

The people buying from the bank only really have anything to show for it if they are paying down principal above and beyond the interest. Many are not—for example, those with interest-only loans really have nothing to show for it unless prices appreciate.

Why do you hate the property-management people? I appreciate my LL, who is giving me a place to live at a cost much lower than I would otherwise have to piss away on interest elsewhere.

 
Comment by Jim A.
2010-07-08 11:54:28

P-I-C Unless you’re independently wealthy or willing to live in a box under the overpass, you have a choice of renting housing or renting the money to purchase it. The question is what terms you can get, and how much you’re willing and able to pay.

 
 
Comment by Jim A.
2010-07-08 11:48:47

Yes, the non-deductable proportion of mortgage interest and the rent are equilavent in that they are both gone forever. The difference is that if you use a 30yr FRM over time the ammount of interest goes DOWN* and the equivalant rent is likely to be going UP. The very fact that there was enough appreciation that homeownership was paying off in a year or two was stron evidence of a bubble in house pricing.

*all the way to zero in year 31.

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Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-07-08 12:25:06

That’s not really a fair comparison, Jim. That’s why I focused strictly based on the amount of money pissed away (on rent or interest).

To make the comparison more fair, you would need to assume that the renter takes the amount of savings (e.g. the mortgage payment for equivalent housing, minus the rent paid), and saved that amount. Take that monthly savings, compound it out for 30yrs at a very safe (perhaps 30-yr Treasuries return), and then see who comes out ahead. As you mention, you would also want to factor in a reasonable increase in rent over that 30yr period.

Ignoring that, you are attributing to the buyer the forced savings of paying down principal over 30yrs, and assuming that the renter blows all of his additional liquidity. The fair comparision is to assume that spending ex housing is identical across the two scenarios.

 
Comment by Jim A
2010-07-08 14:10:02

Well yes, when there are savings due to renting, you do have to account for them. Also, maintenance costs etc. But my point is that in a normal RE market, purchasers usually don’t come out ahead in year 1. But they usually DO come out ahead sometime before year 10, even when you DO account for opportunity costs. That’s why the modern practice of buying a new house after six or seven year is so perplexing to me. Just when you start to see some of the financial benefits of ownership, you throw it away and start over on square one.

 
 
Comment by Dale
2010-07-08 14:37:29

“But somehow those who think of rent paid as “down the drain” fail to ever consider that the equivalent after-deduction portion of interest paid on the mortgage is also similarly flushed. The two are quite equivalent.”

Most people also don’t realize the interest is front loaded on their mortgage and after 10 years of payments they have made very little reduction in the principal.

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Comment by The_Overdog
2010-07-08 20:33:27

Interest isn’t front loaded in any accurate financial sense of the term. It’s more than correct to think of a US 30 year FRM as 30 separate one-year (simple interest) mortagages at X%.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-07-08 23:14:54

Exactly, Overdog. Mortgages are all “simple interest”, which means the interest at any given point in time is just the balance times the rate.

You can even thing of it as 360 separate monthly mortgages at X%/12 if you like. It all works out the same.

The only reason that the interest is higher at the beginning of the mortgage is that the principal balance is higher.

 
Comment by Michael Viking
2010-07-09 04:35:56

Astonishing that on a housing bubble blog we’d hear that Mortgages are all “simple interest”! Mortgages are almost - if not all - compound interest.

And it does not all work out the same. In lots of cases calculating payments using simple interest as an approximation is okay but they’re not the same. Simple interest is only calculated on the original principal. Compound interest is calculated on the original principal and all interest accumulated during past compounding periods. If you start missing payments, you’ll really begin to see the difference between the two.

 
 
 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2010-07-08 12:12:10

Anybody who still thinks renting is throwing money away needs to go live in their car for a while, and save their “wasted” money. Better yet, they can enjoy the convenience of cooking over a small Hibachi in the rain, sleeping in an alleyway or a park, and finding a place to “go to the bathroom.”

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-07-08 12:26:11

You sound like you’ve done it, Grizzly… :-)

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Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-07-08 12:36:43

I’ve been there too. Not fun.

 
Comment by rusty
2010-07-08 13:04:19

There’s always trying out an Obamaville in a tent :-)

 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2010-07-08 14:31:39

I have not, thank goodness.

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-07-08 23:16:13

Well then, Grizzly, you have an excellent ability to imagine the challenges… Bathroom availability in the middle of the night is definitely one of the more challenging bits.

 
 
 
Comment by SOLD IN 05
2010-07-08 17:18:50

i love the fact that i send my kids to one of the best schools in la,play in the parks,have trash and police service at my fingertips and i get all this for 2k a month plus a beautiful home to live in…if i was the owner it would cost 5k a month and a depreciating asset…RENTING THIS PAST 5 YEARS HAVE MADE ME RICHER,any hosue i bought would have went down 50 % and i still have my down pymt left.

 
 
 
Comment by AmazingRuss
2010-07-08 09:25:07

“Rathburn also thinks it’s a bad idea to spend too much time saving to increase the down payment. Provided you have enough for a down payment, you should get into a home as soon as possible, he said. Because while you’re saving, the value of homes is going up and interest rates are going up, Rathburn said. ‘And you’re trying to save faster than those things are going up.’”

I was looking to buy a house in in 2003 when I realized that this was happening in my area. “How can this work?” I wondered… so I got on the Googles and found HBB and other sites that showed that the proper response was to keep saving and wait it out. Now it looks like I’ll end up renting/saving for 10 years, and paying cash when the market has finished crashing.

Instead of 30 years of scraping to make massive payments, I’ll be done in 10 years. Thank you HBB!

Comment by oxide
2010-07-08 10:29:08

Except that given the economy, I’ll be scraping buy for 30 years and then pay cash on a shack in podunk, probably just before I kick it. :roll: The end result is the same — I’ll own a home outright after 30 years, but I” also be jeered at for 30 years as a low-life renter.

Comment by Dman
2010-07-08 10:58:30

I’d rather be a low-life than a pig in a (mortgaged) poke. Whenever you talk about renting, say it’s the smartest thing you’ve ever done in your life, then look concerned, like you just realized that you are talking to someone stuck in a house that they can’t get out of. It won’t earn you any friends, but it sure is fun.

 
 
 
Comment by DennisN
2010-07-08 11:27:32

The value of building permits fell by a much-larger-than expected 10.8 per cent in May from April, slipping to $6 billion

What exactly is the “value of a building permit”? Is it the anticipated sales price of the completed dwelling, or some other “wishing” price?

Comment by Jim A.
2010-07-08 11:50:07

—’cause 6billion seems like too much to be the aggregate of all the filing fees.

 
Comment by JohnF
2010-07-08 14:43:34

Building permit values are normally the cost of completing the building to a “ready to move-in” state. For residential, when a buyer can legally live there, for commercial/industrial, when it can legally be rented to a tenant.

 
 
Comment by Jetson_boy
2010-07-08 11:43:16

I’ve been reading these horror stories about NZ , Canada, and Australia. From what I’ve read, ALL major metros in AU, Canada and NZ are seriously overpriced. This means that if you’re a young adult with kids, you basically have no choice but to live in an overpriced city.

At least in the US ( for now) you can ‘escape’ cities like SF, NYC, Boston, and other to places like Nashville, Raleigh, Austin, or Kansas City.

Comment by yogurt
2010-07-08 12:36:31

As far as Canada goes it depends on what you mean by “major”. All the million plus English speaking cities are overpriced to varying extents. However there are many medium and small cities that aren’t. For example Hamilton (which is only an hour from Toronto) and Winnipeg. And many reasonable small towns. Also the French speaking parts of the country are not significantly overpriced.

Actually the situation in Canada now is quite similar to the US at peak - everything from insanely overpriced to reasonable. Australia and NZ, on the other hand, are seriously overpriced everywhere.

Comment by Dman
2010-07-08 12:47:10

“It’s a great time to buy a first home in Marlborough, according to real estate agents.”

“Bayleys Marlborough real estate agent Glenn Dick said there was still an increase in properties being put up for sale, fuelling the over-supply. He said sellers should seriously consider whether they needed to sell before advertising property. ‘It’s giving buyers too much opportunity to not commit [to a sale].’”

But this realtor from New Zealand says it’s a great time to buy. But this other guy says an increase in properties will continue to push down house prices. Illogical, Illogical (head explodes).

 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2010-07-08 14:36:44

There have been several articles posted to this blog about the insane run-up of prices in Winnipeg, and the poster Lionel has contributed first hand knowledge as he is from there.

 
 
Comment by Martin
2010-07-09 08:47:18

Same is the story in China, India, Hong Kong, Singapore etc.
All the G-20 nations meet to discuss how to keep RE overpriced and how to borrow more to spend in local economies and keep their GDP high. Prices currently in Mumbai (India) slums are more than posh Manhattan,NY apartments.

It is a massive bubble all over the world. US will come out to be best among the worst when it all unwinds and crashes all over the world. US will turn out to be really smart after a few years when it would be recovering and other economies tanking in negative GDPs including all “emerged” economies.

 
 
Comment by Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb-thrower
2010-07-08 16:14:55

“Property prices in 70 Chinese cities rose 12.4 percent in May, the second-fastest pace on record. Shanghai’s new-home sales fell 70 percent from a year ago in June, Changjiang Securities Co. said in a report. Shanghai’s sales of new homes fell 57 percent in the first six months of the year on government measures to cool the property market, Shanghai Uwin Real Estate Information Services Co. said. The first-half sales were the lowest in five years. New home prices in the first half rose 48 percent from a year earlier to 21,008 yuan ($3,100) per square meter, according to the Uwin report.”

Where have we seen this phenomenon of a parabolic price blowout on thinning volumes before? Oh yeah — the peak of the U.S. real estate bubble in 2006!!!

Comment by Ben Jones
2010-07-08 16:32:06

That’s right, every bubble market in the US had steep median price increases, even as sales dropped and inventory exploded. So the available land in 57 Chinese cities doubles? Crooked, highly leveraged bank deals get shut down. The price to income levels in Beijing (where some people yearn to be ‘property slaves’) are higher than any I’ve ever heard of. What can go wrong?

 
Comment by DebtinNation
2010-07-09 01:23:51

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the 1920’s bubble in Florida have ‘em all beat as far as YOY% increases?

 
 
Comment by Mitchell
2010-07-08 18:50:48

The only thing surprising about bubbles and busts is that people still buy into the idea that either will continue for longer than 10 years… in general it just doesn’t happen.

 
Comment by JackRussell
2010-07-09 07:17:55

The NYT had a story yesterday about strategic defaults in homes with mortgages > 1M$.

By contrast, homeowners with less lavish housing are much more likely to keep writing checks to their lender. About one in 12 mortgages below the million-dollar mark is delinquent.

Though it is hard to prove, the CoreLogic data suggest that many of the well-to-do are purposely dumping their financially draining properties, just as they would any sour investment.

The rich are different: they are more ruthless,” said Sam Khater, CoreLogic’s senior economist.

 
Comment by Elli Davis
2010-07-09 07:41:54

I understand the desire of young first-time homebuyers to purchase their dream house even if they have to save for many years. When you move to older and cheaper house you usually spend a lot of money for reconstructions and remodeling. And the value of the property doesn’t rise that much.

 
Comment by pan
2010-07-11 19:02:07

Here is a good idea for a modest expenditure of federal tax dollars to improve policy making in Canada:
1)Purchase numerous international maps of the world and place a sticker denoting ‘you are from here’ on Canada. Embolden arrows from that point across the pacific to Japan, south to the United States and across the Atlantic to parts of Europe (e.g. Ireland).
2) Purchase free plane tickets with temporary accommodations to those international jurisdictions named.
3) Give these maps and and tickets to all federal MPs in the current government with one ‘fact finding’ instruction. Ask people in these countries- what happened when your government instilled rules in the real estate market which enabled people who cant afford homes to flood the market mushrooming asset prices?

Of course the above suggestions are hard to imagine. Harper and his MPs are too busy traveling the world bragging about their superlative regulation of the financial sector. But if some of them took a few weeks to follow these suggestions they might realize the dangerous dumb as hammers path they have put us on with their policies towards the CMHC.

 
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