August 23, 2010

Bits Bucket For August 23, 2010

Post off-topic ideas, links and Craigslist finds here




RSS feed | Trackback URI

464 Comments »

Comment by jeff saturday
2010-08-23 03:36:15

Most municipalities leaning toward raising tax rates

By Jennifer Sorentrue Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Posted: 4:22 p.m. Sunday, Aug. 22, 2010

Most Palm Beach County cities and towns have tentatively approved tax-rate hikes to recoup some of the revenue they have lost as a result of falling property values.

The tentative rates will be listed on preliminary property tax notices mailed out Monday to all 655,181 property owners in Palm Beach County. The rates are used by local governments to calculate how much property owners will pay in taxes this year.

The rate increases could result in higher tax bills for some property owners, especially those who have lived in the homes for many years and were shielded from soaring taxes during the boom years by the state’s Save our Homes assessment cap. Others will see their tax bills fall with the value of their property.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/most-municipalities-leaning-toward-raising-tax-rates-

Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 07:07:02

Counties seemed to survive just fine in, say, 2002 when property values were normal. What the heck have counties and states been DOING in the past 7-8 years? Could they possibly have hired that many teachers or started so many programs or agreed to so many inflated pensions?

And you would think that somebody in the county would have known something was bogus and done the safe thing and banked some of the windfall for a rainy day, but n-o-o-o. (then again, idiot dot-commers were guilty of the same thing…)

Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 07:09:12

oops.

 
Comment by REhobbyist
2010-08-23 07:33:41

In California the state and counties raised pensions in 1999. Those obligations have come home to roost. And it’s going to take forever to unwind them. The question is whether the state will default before employee unions give in. And don’t get me started on inflated administrative salaries in all aspects of government, including schools and universities.

Comment by Captain Credit Crunch
2010-08-23 07:52:55

Whew, good thing I work at a private university so I can escape your wrath!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by REhobbyist
2010-08-23 08:20:49

LOL, Captain! I work at a public university and I’m mad at myself!

 
Comment by mikey
2010-08-23 10:16:15

Oooops !!

I may have goofed around and really bought a nice house, but it ain’t really mine yet.

My agent said the Sellers accepted my tiny low ball Short Sale Offer last night. Basically in 1 day because they are now out of state. It’s been faxed and now it’s all up to the greedy lenders approval. You won’t get one single penny more out of me banksters, I’ve got cash, try and scare me about losing this stupid house. mikey could care less and he moves on down the street.

The sellers and their agent even accepted my 2.5% commission demand out of a total SS 4% sale agency commission for my agent from the lenders and my minor idiot repair contigency to replace the water softener and we aren’t even talking formal House Inspection stage yet.

That’s a real suprise and my agent is happy with it.
I think this little blonde chick wants to marry me just for this house, so I better try to keep her at arms lenght

Sheesh..owners in AZ, the house is 150 miles from me and they are all hungry. Auh…the scent of a woman may not be the same as the scent of cash but their smell sure moves people. Now if the bank likes the smell of cash, I am doomed to a GF and a HouseSlave.

Their agents submitting the offer and new HUD form to the lenders and it’s up to them okay it. I’m already 5k below their listing price and my agent told them not to mess with me just because my counter-offer will be another 5k bekow my origional short sale offer good for 24 hours or they keep the house for a Wisconsin winter while the housing market slides off the freakin’ cliff.

From the owners FSBO DeamPrice of 300k at the peak to a 195k SS if this deal flies past the lender is the new reality and this is just in lil old cheap Wisconsin.

Look out below America…7.2 million of them and they will be a lot cheaper…tomorrow.

Thanks again Ben Jones and HBB gang. Even if I don’t get this place, you all taught me a lot and thanks for putting up with my mischief.

mikey

:)

 
Comment by mikey
2010-08-23 10:55:21

I just HAVE to wear it my HBB T-Shirt if we take deal past the banksters and reach a closing with this shack.

:)

 
Comment by palmetto
2010-08-23 11:08:16

I love it, mikey. Good on ya, cobber, I got a real kick outta your story.

Just watch out for what happens when you slap on a few drops of “Eau de Manwidahouse”

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 11:09:59

If you get the place mikey we expect regular posts on the joys of home-ownership and marriage-dodging.

While you are furnishing, please add a matching zero-gravity chair to the leather couches. I want to come visit during winter for some cross-country skiing and I don’t find a couch very comfortable.

I will bring a bottle of good single malt. And I will take you out for Friday night fish and Manhattans garnished with pickled brussells sprouts, someplace where we can look out at frozen water.

 
Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-08-23 11:12:15

Yah, nothing like having your lowball accepted. :D I already have a wife, so there was no matrimonial risks involved, but I was surprised to get the house.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-08-23 11:38:23

Yeah ill teach em to mess with the man with cash in his hands

not to mess with me just because my counter-offer will be another 5k bekow my origional short sale offer good for 24 hours or they keep the house

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 11:39:34

Hope you get the house and the little blonde chick. Good luck.

 
Comment by mikey
2010-08-23 12:26:47

Yeah, I really love and enjoy the company of all women.

They can be a little weird and extremely dangerous critters at times but the sunrise in the mornings would never be the same if they weren’t around to brighten up my world.

;)

 
Comment by mikey
2010-08-23 12:35:06

Ooops…sorry Big V, I was just kidding about women being so defferent than us Neanderthals.

The above post wasn’t directly meant for you but thank you very much.

:)

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 12:38:54

I think this little blonde chick wants to marry me just for this house my cash…

(The house take-away is usually,… months down that lonesome WisconSIN road leading to a particular section of the county courthouse, sometimes opposite location of where statements like: “I do!” are typically uttered.) :-)

See my post down below Mikey!

 
Comment by Eddie
2010-08-23 12:55:58

Mikey,

Getting a seller to accept a short sale is automatic. Of course he will accept. He’ll accept $1 if you offered it. The bank is taking the loss, so he will accept anything to get out of the situation he’s in. Don’t read much into this acceptance.

When you make a short sale offer the seller is irrelevant. You are making the offer to the bank. The seller is just a middle man who passes on the info to the bank.

If the offer was anything more than 15% below asking price, it will not be accepted. And it will probably take 3-4 weeks just to get a response.

 
Comment by mikey
2010-08-23 13:08:36

hip in zilker

Give me a little time to put this shack together if I get it . Some leather couches and chairs are on my menu especially in the theater roomd . I have to yank out the electric stove and get gas because I like to attempt to cook. I will have plenty of room.

I also have to furnish like 4 bedrooms. If you love beautiful country, fantastic swimming pool just down the block, 40 mile bike trails/ski trails all over the place, summer, fall or winter, this is it. Even a tiny downhill slope nearby. Some of the vista valley sunsets towards the Mississippi would blow you mind.

I know why Blackhawk crossed the Mississippi and came back with his band and risking his life and everything for this land, I would have too.

Just let me know and I’ll grab a couple of cases of famous , healthy Wisconsin “Spotted Cow” and “Fat Squirrel” beer from the New Glarus brewery and I’ll leave a light in the window for you if you are late.

That offer is open to all of the friends on

:)

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 13:38:46

beer from the New Glarus brewery

Sounds good with a pickled egg.

vista valley sunsets towards the Mississippi

Are you in the driftless area?

 
Comment by mikey
2010-08-23 13:50:57

I know Eddie…it’s just an in-house contract RE/ lender con game. Their same contract RE agent can well be trying to sell it for less even after they have to take possession of it.

I gave the banksters more than adequete time to play their little hurry up and wait game. Both agents and the sellers really want andneed the sale. So does the bank…FOR: as much money as they can get.

They have until midnight 30, September 2010, to find a better buyer, crap or get off the pot, or contract and winterize a house for a long Wisconsin winter. I’m still looking at other houses.

I made my offer, take it or leave it. The house is no real deal compared to what is coming down the pike, I looked at 3 more the same day I signed that contract and I’m not contected to this particlar shack by my belly button.

It’s your shot now banksters …call it.

 
Comment by mikey
2010-08-23 19:09:22

“Are you in the driftless area?”

yes but it’s kind of the sw coulee and ridge area

 
 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2010-08-23 10:01:46

$578 million for a school, and layoffs for teachers

The hubris of the American education establishment is on full display at the new Robert F. Kennedy Community Schools in Los Angeles, price tag: $578 million.

At RFK, the features include fine art murals and a marble memorial depicting the complex’s namesake, a manicured public park, a state-of-the-art swimming pool and preservation of pieces of the original hotel [at the site where the school was built].

Partly by circumstance and partly by design, the Los Angeles Unified School District has emerged as the mogul of Taj Mahals.

The RFK complex follows on the heels of two other LA schools among the nation’s costliest — the $377 million Edward R. Roybal Learning Center, which opened in 2008, and the $232 million Visual and Performing Arts High School that debuted in 2009.

Los Angeles is not alone, however, in building big. Some of the most expensive schools are found in low-performing districts — New York City has a $235 million campus; New Brunswick, N.J., opened a $185 million high school in January.

Nationwide, dozens of schools have surpassed $100 million with amenities including atriums, orchestra-pit auditoriums, food courts, even bamboo nooks. The extravagance has led some to wonder where the line should be drawn and whether more money should be spent on teachers.

The Roybal school, mentioned above, “grew to encompass a dance studio with cushioned maple floors, a modern kitchen with a restaurant-quality pizza oven, a 10-acre park and teacher planning rooms between classrooms.” But the real kicker for the Los Angeles school district comes in the paragraph I snipped above, which I now present:

The pricey schools have come during a sensitive period for the nation’s second-largest school system: Nearly 3,000 teachers have been laid off over the past two years, the academic year and programs have been slashed. The district also faces a $640 million shortfall and some schools persistently rank among the nation’s lowest performing.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 10:16:27

Something similar from a post last week on The Urbanophile:

According to an article in D Magazine, the Dallas Symphony Orchestra is in financial trouble:

There’s no doubt that the symphony, like many nonprofit groups in North Texas, is struggling to make ends meet in the teeth of a still-sputtering economy. The DSO’s plight is especially vexing to many Dallas businesspeople, however, because of the symphony’s importance to the business community as a symbol of the city’s cultural standing….After four straight years of balanced budgets—and a 70 percent increase in its endowment, to $120 million—the DSO ran into difficulty two years ago after its then-president and CEO, Fred Bronstein, left to head the symphony orchestra in St. Louis. Battered by the stock market crash and the so-called Great Recession, the DSO’s endowment would plummet to $84 million.

Local donors are hesitant in a tough economy and Dallas is having difficulty raising funds. What I find interesting is the juxtaposition of the endowment decline with the $1 billion the city just invested in a performing arts complex:

It is clearly one of the most impressive collections of new arts buildings in the country, designed by some of the finest contemporary architects – Renzo Piano, I.M. Pei, Edward Larrabee Barnes, Foster + Partners, Rem Koolhaas and Brad Cloepfil, whose Arts Magnet High School could provide the daily doses of populist energy that the district needs.

How can a city invest over a billion in buildings but not support the on field product? It reminds me of a previous post on Kansas City’s Kauffman Center for the performing arts, whose price tag could have created an endowment that would have funded the entire operating budgets of the symphony, opera, and ballet in perpetuity.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 10:33:11

Nearly 3,000 teachers have been laid off over the past two years, the academic year and programs have been slashed. The district also faces a $640 million shortfall and some schools persistently rank among the nation’s lowest performing.

But the new schools that the still-working teachers are in? Have you seen them? OMG, they’re awesome!

[sarcasm off]

 
Comment by TCM_guy
2010-08-23 12:25:33

Chicago built a big expensive library but there aren’t that many books in it.

 
Comment by The_Overdog
2010-08-23 12:39:03

According to an article in D Magazine, the Dallas Symphony Orchestra is in financial trouble:
—————–
They may be in trouble, but that is because they aren’t business people so they don’t know how to manage their way out of it nor how to treat the customer - ie, I have tickets to a few events, and they are $45 each for the top of the Opera House and the building may be beautiful but the seats are uncomfortable and the Wolfgang Puck inspired food is terrible for its price. Good seats are $200 or so.

The basketball tickets I have are for less money, the seats are more comfortable, and the experience overall is mostly better. If money got tight, I’d still try to make my way to the basketball arena.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 13:01:42

Non-profs in arts are nothing but hobbies for the rich and customer value is not in their lexicon.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-08-23 14:25:28

Because buildings don’t complain and whine and beeacth about anything……they are nice quiet fellows

How can a city invest over a billion in buildings but not support the on field product?

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 14:43:39

Non-profs in arts are nothing but hobbies for the rich and customer value is not in their lexicon.

Tell me about it.

This nabe is just steps away from the Tucson Symphony’s main office. And, right across the street from the TSO office is a neighborhood rec center and a city park with a nice, big lawn.

So, you might be thinking, “Let’s grow our audience! Let’s do some outreach to one of the most ethnically diverse neighborhoods in the city! Via outdoor concerts on the lawn of Mansfield Park!”

But you would be wrong. After all, this is the TSO. Not a hotbed of innovative thinking.

Sad part is, I know a fellow who’s played in the symphony for decades. He’s a musical virtuoso, and not just on the classical strings. Any-hoo, this guy has had all sorts of ideas on how to grow the TSO audience, and they’ve gone nowhere.

I also know a lady who briefly worked in the TSO development office. (They’re the fundraisers.)

She’s very good at raising money, and it didn’t take long for a better opportunity to come her way. She bailed out of the symphony development office and has zero regrets.

 
Comment by DebtinNation
2010-08-23 20:30:14

All of this sh@t is like watching the Titanic crash in slow motion — the stage has been set for a day of reckoning not so far off in the distant future and there’s nothing they can do about it — living in LaLa land as if everything’s fine; the state or the feds will bail them out, or they can raise taxes, or borrow more money, or lay off another 5,000 teachers. And I can’t wait to see the condition of these schools after 15 years of gangbangers and crappy gubmint maintenance.

 
 
Comment by Jerry
2010-08-23 12:42:55

Unions will Never give in! A fight to the finish, count on it.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by oc-ed
2010-08-23 22:56:05

I guess that was the stance the United Steel Workers took in the Mon Valley and now it is a ghost town. I am not anti union, but I do believe that they sometimes lack the foresight to see when it it best to be flexible and give in to save the industry and the jobs.

 
 
Comment by Tonghlor
2010-08-23 21:12:31

And don’t get me started with CEOs pay and their insistence of moving jobs overseas.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Jim A.
2010-08-23 07:35:59

I suspect that a big part of the problem is that roads and schools etc were built on the reasonable, but ultimately wrong assumption that all those developments and condos would be filed with taxpayers demanding services. Kind of like those half-empty new strip malls.

Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 08:09:41

the reasonable, but ultimately wrong assumption

In other words, developers basically said “if you let us build it, they will come. And btw, could we defer paying for the infrastructure until after all the young couples and little tots move in?” Councilmen, bought off by the developers, fell for it big time. Then the developers fled the scene leaving the counties holding the bag.

The usual.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by scdave
2010-08-23 09:02:39

Councilmen, bought off by the developers, fell for it big time. Then the developers fled the scene leaving the counties holding the bag ??

Two more players in the mix also….Lenders and Farmers…

 
Comment by Jim A.
2010-08-23 09:30:10

And of course for the most part, the infrastructure wasn’t built with cash lying around. I’d guess that most of it involved bond issues. And those bonds want payin’ whether you fill the schools, and drive on the roads or not.

 
Comment by In Montana
2010-08-23 10:06:39

Yeah we’ve got a couple crazy stupid roads up a hill to developments from back in the 70s and 80s. Apparently the city had to finish them and the locals have complained about how dangerous they are, but when the residents were assessed the bigger landowners didn’t want to pay for improvements. Now they’re trying to make the whole city or even county pay for roads 99% of the residents have never been on much less use regularly.

 
 
 
Comment by SFC
2010-08-23 07:52:26

I just checked, and my Palm Beach County taxes are going up about 7% next year. My private-sector salary raise this year was $0, the same as the past 3 years. But the government needs a 7% raise.

Of course as they raise taxes with wages stagnant house prices have to decrease to compensate, which puts more people upside-down, which further decreases prices as people walk away, which “forces” the government to increase millage rates, which decreases home prices, etc., etc. It’s a death spiral.

Comment by Blue Skye
2010-08-23 08:48:35

Welcome to Western NY of the last 50 years.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by HottyToddy
2010-08-23 14:22:16

Just saw my Duval County TRIM notice, appraised value down only 4% on the house (laugh, chortle, snort), but proposed taxes up 12%. The Gubermint idiots here have “cut to the bone”, which means they have kept the rate of the total budget increase to “only” 3-4%. Oh, and they also added on garbage and water/sewer fees of about $160 to $175 per house.

So like everyone else, no raises for us taxpayers, nice pensions for our “humble servants” and my total property tax and fee increase will be 15%. BTW, you can’t use the library because we are cutting back hours to 9-5 weekdays only, we don’t take care of the parks and we’re the murder and burglary capital of the state, but we are building a damn fine $300 million and counting new courthouse for the judges, murderers and assorted reprobates that are funneled through there daily so they will be nice and comfy.

I guess the only comfort is that this rant can be duplicated in just about every county and big city in America, so we aren’t the only ones. Great sinking ship we are all riding in, huh?

Please stop spending our money, my wife and I do enough of that already!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-08-23 19:57:58

Talk about giving the kids the middle finger….how about 12-8 so people can use the facilities? I know NO innovative thinking is allowed in America anymore.

you can’t use the library because we are cutting back hours to 9-5 weekdays only,

 
 
 
Comment by FED Up
2010-08-23 08:07:01

Not sure about Palm Beach County, but prices weren’t normal in my area (Chicago) or California in 2002. Jas Jain (??) had posted a least 2 years ago on this blog, data that showed California prices had gone up quite a bit by 2001. My personal house search in June 2001 is what led me to research the housing market because homes in my area were already out of line with income and prices were up quite a bit from 96/97.

 
Comment by SouthFL
2010-08-23 17:52:18

Exactly! They just need to head over to the file cabinet and pull out the 2001 budget and just use that. Nobody was complaining about budget shortfalls then.

 
 
 
Comment by jeff saturday
2010-08-23 03:40:55

Even high-end properties can’t escape foreclosure wave in Palm Beach County

By Alexandra Clough Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Posted: 1:49 p.m. Sunday, Aug. 22, 2010

Three prominent Palm Beach County properties have fallen into foreclosure. Their future is uncertain, caught up in the morass of complex bank litigation.

They are the former 1515 condominium on Flagler Drive in West Palm Beach, the Omphoy Ocean Resort in Palm Beach and the Gulfstream Hotel in Lake Worth.

The 30-story, 1515 condo was demolished in a 10-second spectacle in February. In its place, the property’s developer, Trinity Development, planned The Modern, a 24-story, $150 million condo.

But on Aug. 10, Trinity 1515, the entity that owns the property, was sued for foreclosure by First Commonwealth Bank of Pennsylvania. The Palm Beach County Circuit Court lawsuit alleges that Trinity 1515 has failed to repay a $36 million loan. The lawsuit seeks repayment of the loan and foreclosure.

Edmund Abramson, a Trinity official, said Trinity has no plans to let the land go.

“The intention is to go forward,” Abramson said. He said Trinity and the bank are trying to work things out.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/money/real-estate/even-high-end-properties-cant-escape-foreclosure-wave-872758.html

Comment by SFC
2010-08-23 08:20:11

They are all SO high-end that they don’t actually exist. “Sorry, the bank is foreclosing. You’re going to have to tell all those people living in your artist renderings to move out. And tell that drawing of that guy in the pool Speedos are not allowed.”

Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 08:30:27

Government assistance is the answer to keep the buyers in the artists rendering in their “homes” so they can keep living the American dream. See, that way the banks will get paid.

 
Comment by pmseatac
2010-08-23 08:54:31

I was hearing about this sort of thing even before the bubble popped: a developer would declare an intent to build a new luxury condo or gated community and open bidding for “pre-sales” before even buying the land to build on. Investors would jump in to buy and flip the “virtual” condos or houses several times over for higher and higher prices. The developer would declare bankruptcy and slip away into the sunset leaving the last bunch of buyers holding the bag. What happens when the bank forecloses in this situation, when there is nothing to repossess ?

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 09:14:38

I’m not sure things would work out this way. A FB could put down an earnest-money deposit and sign a contract, but could not get a mortgage on a non-existant building. IIRC flippers would merely be selling their place on a sales contract. The developer on the other hand could have a construction loan mortgage on the bare land and misc. other stuff.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by pmseatac
2010-08-23 14:50:40

That does makes more sense.

 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 13:06:41

You act like there is something wrong with this, pmseatac. What are you, some kind of socialeest/commie?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by cobaltblue
2010-08-23 03:50:53

While America’s super-rich congratulate themselves on donating billions to charity, the rest of the country is worse off than ever. Long-term unemployment is rising and millions of Americans are struggling to survive. The gap between rich and poor is wider than ever and the middle class is disappearing.

Ventura is a small city on the Pacific coast, about an hour’s drive north of Los Angeles. Luxury homes with a view of the ocean dot the hillsides, and the beaches are popular with surfers. Ventura is storybook California. “It’s a well-off place,” says Captain William Finley. “But about 20 percent of the city is what we call at risk of homelessness.” Finley heads the local branch of the Salvation Army.

Last summer Ventura launched a pilot program, managed by Finley, that allows people to sleep in their cars within city limits. This is normally illegal, both in Ventura and in the rest of the country, where local officials and residents are worried about seeing run-down vans full of Mexican migrant workers parked on residential streets.

But sometime at the beginning of last year, people in Ventura realized that the cars parked in front of their driveways at night weren’t old wrecks, but well-tended station wagons and hatchbacks. And the people sleeping in them weren’t fruit pickers or the homeless, but their former neighbors.

Finley also noticed a change. Suddenly twice as many people were taking advantage of his social service organization’s free meals program, and some were even driving up in BMWs — apparently reluctant to give up the expensive cars that reminded them of better times.

Finley calls them “the new poor.” “That is a different category of people that I think we’re seeing,” he says. “They are people who never in their wildest imaginations thought they would be homeless.” They’re people who had enough money — a lot of money, in some cases — until recently.

“The image of what is a poor person in today’s day and age doesn’t fly. When I was growing up a poor person, and we grew up fairly poor, you drove a 10-year-old car that probably had some dents in it. You know, there was one car for the family and you lived out of the food bank,” says Finley. “In the past, you got yourself out of poverty and were on your way up.”

In its current annual report, the US Department of Agriculture notes that “food insecurity” is on the rise, and that 50 million Americans couldn’t afford to buy enough food to stay healthy at some point last year. One in eight American adults and one in four children now survive on government food stamps. These are unbelievable numbers for the world’s richest nation.

(From Spiegel online)

Comment by krazy bill
2010-08-23 04:31:13

It’s mourning in America.

 
Comment by edgewaterjohn
2010-08-23 04:35:39

“They’re people who had enough money — a lot of money, in some cases — until recently.”

I call B.S. This is a lie. They had a loans - that’s all what they had - a whole lotta debt.

Of housing ~30% rented, ~30% “owned”, ~40% owned by the banks. Get over it ‘Merikuh. Maybe part of the reason the middle class is collapsing is because many of the people that claimed to be in the middle class were living a lie?

Comment by palmetto
2010-08-23 04:43:32

“Maybe part of the reason the middle class is collapsing is because many of the people that claimed to be in the middle class were living a lie?”

That is SO spot-on. It’s been a camoflagued hole for a long time. Much of the middle class has been outsourced and off-shored.

Comment by palmetto
2010-08-23 04:58:12

But that doesn’t excuse the purchase of a Hummer.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by rms
2010-08-23 06:41:03

People from poor countries spend their money on flashy automobiles because it’s chattel; they can be moved and hidden unlike real estate that is subject to confiscation by the next macho mayor. Maybe the peeps here are learning what the third world already knows?

 
Comment by packman
2010-08-23 06:59:02

People from poor countries spend their money on flashy automobiles because it’s chattel; they can be moved and hidden unlike real estate that is subject to confiscation by the next macho mayor. Maybe the peeps here are learning what the third world already knows?

Pretty sad when the trend of progress is toward third-worldism.

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 11:47:40

Maybe the peeps here are actually legal or illegal immigrants from third-world countries, and are acting like it.

 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2010-08-23 05:02:29

>i>It’s been a camoflagued hole for a long time. Much of the middle class has been outsourced and off-shored.

And its been happening little by little. A layoff here, an outsourcing there and more than a few offshorings.

And as it has been pointed out in the past, when a factory gets offshored it’s not just blue collar jobs that are lost.

I’m sure that some of the “new poor” are cast offs from corporate America. Many switched gears and survived off the housing bubble during the past decade. I know such a couple. They were thrown away before they were ready to retire. Their meager corporate pensions (which were tiny compared to public pensions to begin with) were not vested when they were shown the door, and now they struggle to get by with the only “jobs” they could get: selling insurance and real estate, neither of whichis going gang busters these days (from what I have heard through the grapevine they are considering filing for bankruptcy).

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 07:43:19

“Maybe part of the reason the middle class is collapsing is because many of the people that claimed to be in the middle class were living a lie?”

That was the plan by the corporations and government–for many of the former middle-class to appear to remain “middle-class” for another 10-15 years by taking on debt.

The debt was enabled by easy credit and credit derived from asset bubbles such as the dot-com and housing bubble.

The middle class has been under assault for almost 40 years now. 1972 was the turning point.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Eddie
2010-08-23 04:49:57

I love how when a Democrat is in office the people living in their cars are to blame. But when a Republican is in office, the people living in cars are victims of the Republican policies.

During 2001-2008 anyone who stubbed their toe was a victim of Bush/Cheney. Now homeless people are homeless because they were liars.

Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 07:12:20

I love how you have no concept of timescales or the critical thinking needed to distinguish among them.

Doesn’t a “producer” like you have a private island to be on somewhere, instead of here?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by packman
2010-08-23 07:16:50

I love how when a Democrat is in office the people living in their cars are to blame. But when a Republican is in office, the people living in cars are victims of the Republican policies.

During 2001-2008 anyone who stubbed their toe was a victim of Bush/Cheney. Now homeless people are homeless because they were liars.

Got hyperbole?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 11:51:19

Eddie, what are you talking about? No one is blaming the homeless for our economic problems. The only thing being said here is that today’s homeless would have been turned out 10 years ago if it weren’t for the fake RE bubble of yore. I hate it when people start to argue with something that isn’t even being said.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by exeter
2010-08-23 04:50:15

“I call B.S. This is a lie. They had a loans - that’s all what they had - a whole lotta debt.”

That’s right. All flash no cash, trend chasing credit junkie hyper consumers.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 09:06:39

All flash no cash, trend chasing credit junkie hyper consumers ;-)

(Hwy begins searching Google images for a new “economics” flash card: …hairless Chihuahua in a pink ballet tutu + oakley sunglasses + gourmet darn hot Cajun dog biscuits + Palinred lipstick…first image listed is… Sir Greenisspent?)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by In Colorado
2010-08-23 05:20:11

I call B.S. This is a lie. They had a loans - that’s all what they had - a whole lotta debt.

Not necesarily. I know another guy who had a very successful HVAC biz during the bubble. It grew and at one time he had several employees. He traded up houses more than once as his cashflow at one time was very handsome. I know another fellowing who had a tiling biz. Again a good cashflow and he bought some acreage.

Fast forward to today. Both have seen their cash flows disappear and have been burning through savings. Both of them have daughters who qualified for federal grants to attend college.

They aren’t homeless, but I can’t help but wonder how long until they lose their mortgaged trophy properties. It won’t be long I think.

Sure, we can blame these people for thinking that the bubble would last forever. But they also weren’t fly by night types either. Both of them have been in business for 15+ years and saw their businesses and revenue streams steadily grow over that period, until the crash hit and everything slammed into the wall.

If anything they were ignorant (both only have HS educations) and thought that their businesses were steady and reliable and failed to see the gathering economic storm (then again, the same could be said of many people with economics degrees).

Of course these guys keep hoping that things will “bounce back”, even though they are starting to see the handwriting on the wall regarding the “new normal”, and part of that new normal is that there are currently more HVAC guys and tilers here in our county than we need.

Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 07:13:50

If anything they were ignorant (both only have HS educations)

I’m sure a college degree in economics would have prevented their getting into such a predicament… :roll:

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 07:46:39

Hmmmm, let’s see. I have a college degree in economics.

Three years after getting said degree, I had one heckuva time finding a job. And then I finally found one — dishwasher. Part-time and with with minimum wage pay.

During the six months that I had this job, I had lots of time to think about that “If you want a good job, get a good education!” BS I’d heard so much of in my growing-up years. Truth is, if the economy sucks, your education doesn’t matter.

 
Comment by jetson_boy
2010-08-23 08:49:19

Truth be known, almost everyone I know who went to college experienced the same thing: A transition from college, to a joe-job, to a tentative first “real” job. I moved to the Bay Area in late 2000, right when the dot-com crashed. There were zero jobs… except Joe jobs. I and all those I went to college with worked as baggers, store clerks, stock boys, and video store workers. It took me a little over 3 years to land my first “real” gig which was about the same as all the others.

My brother graduated last year and spent a good 6-7 month working at a big box store before landing his first “real” job. He will be getting laid off in another 2-3 months at which point he will be looking again.

The honest truth is that I’m glad I had that Joe Job. I’d had such jobs since I was 16. So by the time I got out of that kind of work it made me really appreciate the “real” job.

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2010-08-23 09:00:40

Maybe the companion degree should have been teaching.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 09:04:37

The honest truth is that I’m glad I had that Joe Job. I’d had such jobs since I was 16. So by the time I got out of that kind of work it made me really appreciate the “real” job.

Shhhhhhhhh! Don’t tell anybody this, but here’s a little secret about Joe Jobs:

They’re a fabulous place to learn about business and other aspects of life.

Case in point: This place where I washed the dishes was owned by a fellow who also had a catering business and a hardware store.

He hired me and some of my restaurant buddies for the catering. One of our gigs was at an all-day conference at a Jewish community center in Pittsburgh’s Squirrel Hill section. (That’s the Burgh’s Jewish nabe.)

While we were standing in the back, being the ever-alert catering staff, we listened to quite an array of speakers talking about various facets of Jewish life.

At one point, I was back in the kitchen with one of my coworkers, and she remarked about how interesting the topics were. I couldn’t help but agree.

In addition to being exposed to different points of view, I also learned a heckuva lot about business in my Joe Jobs. They were much better “business schools” than my office jobs, which were supposed to be more, ahem, professional.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 10:07:11

During the six months that I had this job, I had lots of time to think about…

“I not workin’ for THE-MAN no more, I can open my own darn gourmet Tonga food restaurant here in Pittsburgh!” ;-)

 
Comment by In Montana
2010-08-23 10:26:59

You’d think you’d have recognized oxide’s snark then.

 
Comment by Eddie
2010-08-23 13:26:06

And where did you all get these degrees that rewarded you with a “Joe” job? A no-name state U perhaps? Oh no, that can’t be. I was told that No Name Stat U is just like Yale or Dartmouth.

Funny I don’t know anyone who graduated from Yale or Dartmouth or Duke or CalPoly who had to get a Joe job. But that must be coincidence since Yale and No Name State U at Never Heard of the Place are equal. Or so the HBB says.

 
Comment by MrBubble
2010-08-23 13:43:02

“Funny I don’t know anyone who graduated from Yale or Dartmouth or Duke or CalPoly who had to get a Joe job.”

Well, I went to one of them thar Ivy schools and have known many people who have taken “Joe Jobs” and have had to take them myself.

More evidence of the worthlessness of your POV.

MrBubble

 
Comment by ahansen
2010-08-23 21:26:10

Ahem, CalPoly?!

Now we KNOW you are a fraud.
Perhaps you were referring to Caltech?

 
 
Comment by REhobbyist
2010-08-23 07:44:32

But Colorado, you actually support edgewater’s statement with your examples. What’s killing those guys are their big mortgage loans. If they had used the good times to pay off their houses they would be fine now. Years ago, the first thing I did when I started making a good salary was to pay off my house. Even though I had a safe job, I knew that disability could end it, so the first priority was financial security. The big house needs to wait until you have enough savings to pay it off.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by TCM_guy
2010-08-23 08:04:36

There are still so many sheeple who believe that if you are not in debt paying tax deductable mortgage interest, then you need to get there. They practice what they preach, and they preach it far and wide. I suppose a certain segment of the population will always believe in this, no matter what.

 
Comment by In Colorado
2010-08-23 08:24:07

Of course its the debt that’s killing them. My point was that at one time these guys were pulling down 200K+ and they didn’t understand that it was because of the bubble and not their business acumen. Had they been a little wiser they would have stayed in to 250K house instead of trading up.

Again, these guys were not 40K “millionaires” who bought their properties with no money down interest only loans. When the getting was good they had incomes I could only envy. They did have money, lots of money and most of them pissed it away on 50K super trucks, Harleys, boats and 2 week family vacatons in Hawaii and Disneyworld (especially the HVAC guy).

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-08-23 08:52:45

They sound like classic grasshoppers, in the old ant vs grasshopper fable.

Point taken, though, In Colorado; they did have plenty o’ cash at one point, and it was not all borrowed.

 
Comment by Jim A.
2010-08-23 09:34:34

…Because “I’m a genius,” is so much more pleasent to believe than “I’m lucky.” I’m reminded of a passage in The Big Short about a couple of investors who were ALWAYS questioning their investment strategy. Did it make sense, or were they deluding themselves. …Until they went to the big mortgage seucritization conference in Las Vegas and decided that everybody there was either a moron, or a crook.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 09:53:50

I’m reminded of a passage in The Big Short about a couple of investors who were ALWAYS questioning their investment strategy. Did it make sense, or were they deluding themselves. …Until they went to the big mortgage seucritization conference in Las Vegas and decided that everybody there was either a moron, or a crook.

Michael Lewis’ The Big Short is a good book. It’s about a small group of investors who, after taking a good look at what was inside those much-vaunted mortgage-backed securities, decided that they were going to go ker-flewie.

So, they started buying credit default swaps against them. And they were surprised that other investors weren’t catching on and joining their MBS shopping spree.

Well, we all know what happened next. The proverbial SHTF, and the CDS-es really paid off for these investors.

With regards from your HBB Librarian…

 
Comment by Jim A.
2010-08-23 10:57:37

Of course one the reasons that those bets paid off was that goverment pitched in to bail out the counterparties….

 
 
 
Comment by ACH
2010-08-23 05:28:14

Here are realities:
1) America has been bailing out the largest, least efficient. best connected, and richest. It’s just galling.
2) Most jobs are initiated by smaller businesses. It is these businesses that are the heart of any recovery. It is exactly these businesses that are failing or have failed.
3) The “financial system” has been saved. I sleep better knowing the Jamie Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein are “earning” hundreds or millions of dollars in well deserved bonuses. (For those of you who are “sarcasm impaired”, google “sarcasm wiki.”)
4) The people who are unemployed are for the huge majority responsible, taxpaying citizens. Get this: They didn’t do anything wrong. They need to re-train and relocate to where the jobs are. They will. Don’t worry.

America needs to redesign and reorient our economy. We’ve done this before after the 1970’s when we started with the computer revolution. I was there. I participated. It was great. No more large well connected financial corporations that don’t really contribute anything.

We now need to keep the kids fed and people healthy. We don’t need to have people living in their cars. We need to take care of our children and their future. This means that we will need to spend money - yes, borrowed money - to ensure that they will have food, medical care, and place to live, and an education.

The youngsters do not vote. They don’t pay taxes. They didn’t cause this mess. We will need them, and their good work to ensure the future of our country. Poverty kills many more than it saves. I know.

I am absolutely convinced that if we don’t spend money like it’s blowing out of a firehose, then we will never fully rebuild. I am also convinced that we need to be responsible adults about this matter in that yes, we are our bother’s keeper - to a point. The saying that “Life isn’t fair get over it.” applies to people who don’t smoke, exercise, and get plenty of sleep and then die of a heart attack or cancer or an accident at a tragically young age. It does not apply in almost all other situations.

We need fairness and opportunity in our society and country. Heck, we need it in the world. I am equally convinced that if we don’t do this, we will rue this for many decades to come.

Roidy

Comment by Rancher
2010-08-23 07:11:18

No comment.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 07:40:25

+1.

However, I would substitute the “spending money out of a firehose” with “spend a moderate amount of money and go protectionist.”

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 12:01:54

I agree, oxide.

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 07:52:58

We now need to keep the kids fed and people healthy. We don’t need to have people living in their cars. We need to take care of our children and their future. This means that we will need to spend money - yes, borrowed money - to ensure that they will have food, medical care, and place to live, and an education.

(The swingin’ doors suddenly fly open at the Tea Party Pee Toadlers Saloon…out tumbles Roidy off the porch and into the mud…) :-)

Rash Limbaughs Booming “TrueBlahBlahBlah™” voice emanates from inside the Saloon:

“”Dhat ‘ain’t Stimulus boy…that be Spending!”… a chorus of cackling voices erupts into hysterical hyena laughter…”

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by ACH
2010-08-23 09:28:50

… but…but…if you never went back to the places you were thrown out of, you’d never go anywhere.

Roidy

 
 
Comment by SFC
2010-08-23 08:05:34

OK, but then what happens? We’ve already borrowed $2 trillion trying to fix things with little to show for it. Let’s say we borrow another $2 trillion. Will that jump start us from spending way more than we produce to having $100’s of billions in surplus every year? Otherwise how do we pay back the $4 trillion? Exactly what products and services are going to be created to have a surplus high enough to pay this money back? Or are we hoping for a miracle?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Carl Morris
2010-08-23 08:17:22

Or are we hoping for a miracle?

We’re hoping that with trillions of dollars worth of runways and tiki torches and bamboo towers that planes full of jobs will start landing here. Would that be a miracle?

 
Comment by ACH
2010-08-23 10:07:27

We will get a re-assortment of the economy if we can do this correctly. I refer to item #1 of a previous post of mine. We should be providing needed capital to small businesses and letting Wall Street and those huge financial corporations live or die as fate has it.

See, it’s not just spending money. It is spending money on things we can make money from in the future. Good education, good infrastructure, etc. NOT AIG, GS, JPM, etc.

I have a nightmare vision of what our future if we don’t work hard to fix this mess. Just yelling about austerity and debt is not enough. We need to spend but spend wisely. I strongly suspect the “Tea Partiers” are pro-nonproducing-wealthy-people. It seems so. I want wealthy people who are into building things that work. Buffet, Gates, Jobs, Allen, are these types. Neutron Jack Welch, Jamie Dimon, Blankfein, etc are not. They are into “financial innovation.” Do we really need “financial innovation” to provide someone with a better idea, product, service, or invention?

Anyway, I certainly do not think that “wise spending” has been done up until now. What we have done so far is to ensure that we will have a GD II. This is The Bad. Very bad.

Roidy

 
Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 10:24:33

Dimon, Welch, Blankfein are experts at raiding both existing pockets of value and pulling forward future demand. They then convert that value into tangible cash and profits NOW, which they show off to their buddies as “financial innovation.” Wall Street accolades, exec bonuses, and war upon the middle class followed.

I know someone who worked for GE and left just as Jack Welch was ramping up his brand of “leadership.” When Welch sold off and exported the light-bulb manufacturing sector, the employees were horrified. Welch, in his zeal to gut the company for a damn buck NOW, didn’t even have the decency to keep this one little token in rememberence of the company’s founder.

 
Comment by SFC
2010-08-23 11:18:44

I agree that we should never have given those banks a bailout. But as the old saying goes, two wrongs don’t make a right. Sure “good infrastructure, good education” are important things, but they’re too vague to justify borrowing even more money. They sound like politician election BS. Education to create what, exactly? Infrastructure so that WHAT can move from place to place better? Exactly how will this borrowing be paid back?

How can adding more debt help us out of a situation caused by too much debt?

What makes more sense:
1. A solution is possible, but for 20-40 years nobody has thought of one so we’ve “had to” just borrow more and more. But any day now (as long as we keep borrowing) someone will figure out a miracle solution to increase real GDP by 20% forever, so we can pay off all of those debts.

2. Borrowing your way out of debt is impossible, and there is no solution that doesn’t involve incredible amounts of pain, so prepare yourself for it.

 
 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2010-08-23 08:31:45

You go roidy. Keep borrowing money until the hole is so deep we NEVER get out.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 08:55:50

Keep borrowing money until the hole is so deep we NEVER get out.

What if the hole is already so deep that we will never get out? Don’t you think it is?

And if that is the case, then why should trillions be spent to bail out banks (that did not help Main Street) while trillions NOT be spent to help Main street?

Is it not JUST to attempt to help Main Street now that the corrupt and criminal Wall Street has been bailed out on our dime?

The thing is, JUSTICE is not solely about moral rightness. Part of the concept of justice includes the concept of equitableness and equal and fair treatment.

But right now it’s like:

My Government committed 23 Trillion dollars to Bail out the Rich and all I got was this lousy t-shirt

(and then a stern lecture by the bailed-out, super-rich on fiscal accountability)

 
Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 10:05:35

“What if the hole is already so deep that we will never get out? Don’t you think it is? ”

-Then sir, you will most certainly drown. Are you saying mass genocide by drowning is in order?

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 10:20:33

Then sir, you will most certainly drown. Are you saying mass genocide by drowning is in order?

I’m saying what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. This a concept of JUSTICE. It is not just to bail out Wall Street thugs and then preach fiscal austerity to Main Street. We do not live in a vacuum. Past policies of rich being bailed out need to considered when making future policy.

And I have no great long-term fears of currency collapses. Especially in a country as rich and hard-working as the United States.

I’m living in a country (Brazil) with a 7.5% growth rate, a surging middle-class, who is energy independent, has a trade-surplus and who’s currency has collapsed 3 times the past 25 years.

If Brazil can do it, the United States damn sure can too.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 10:24:26

But right now it’s like:

My Government committed 23 Trillion dollars to Bail out the Rich and all I got was this lousy t-shirt :-)

But, but, but,… the rich pay 99.8% of the taxes, so be thankful & quit you cryin’, pissin’, moanin’, and get back to work

(oh, and that $3.99 t-shirt, 100% cotton exported from America to Malaysia and then shipped back to America on a ship registered in Libya…now, look how many jobs that involved, and believe me those Longshoreman don’t work fer nutin! Oh, and speakin” of “Customer Service”, why you just call that 1-888 number, while your talkin’ to a LIVE PERSON, ask ‘em ’bout the weather where they are, whether or not it’s gonna hurt their tea crops.)

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2010-08-23 11:51:10

Is this what we’re talking about? Their silence speaks louder than words.

Business lobbying groups silent on pending lending legislation
Business Quotes Add comments

U.S. Chamber of Commerce not weighing in on $30-billion lending bill.

At a time when many small business owners are looking to Congress to enact a $30-billion small business lending bill, some of the nation’s most prominent lobbying groups have remained largely silent.

Bloomberg reports that the country’s three largest pro-business groups, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National Federation of Independent Business and the National Association of Manufacturers, have not come out in support of the bill.

Despite the fact that the three groups have spent more than $47 million on lobbying in the first six months of the year, many small business owners see the lack of lobbying for the small business lending package as a telling sign of where the groups’ priorities lie.

 
Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 12:18:39

It is not just to bail out Wall Street thugs and then preach fiscal austerity to Main Street.

+1. Conservatives/rich/Republicans love to have their at-bat at the top of the inning and then call the game on the account of rain. ergo, they win! The worst part is that they convince the poor J6P that it’s his own fault that he doesn’t have a job.

Meanwhile, my old apartment complex in central Ohio was situated near a couple major financial office buildings. Half the place was populated by good families from India, including aging parents and many many children under the age of 5. And they all had nice cars and SUV’s.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 14:45:30

Despite the fact that the three groups have spent more than $47 million on lobbying in the first six months of the year, many small business owners see the lack of lobbying for the small business lending package as a telling sign of where the groups’ priorities lie.

And that’s why Yours Truly won’t join any Chamber of Commerce. Or the N-Fibbers (NFIB).

 
 
Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 08:37:00

Are you sure you didn’t mean “stop government spending by turning OFF the fire-hose”?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by In Montana
2010-08-23 14:52:01

“America needs to redesign and reorient our economy. We’ve done this before after the 1970’s when we started with the computer revolution.”

But that wasn’t by design or redesign. The computer revolution wasn’t planned, it was started in some guys’ garages. The big boys were still pushing Big Iron when Apple and Microsoft turned everything on its head. You can’t plan something like that and make it happen. Just look at green energy, lol.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 15:09:29

You can’t plan something like that and make it happen. Just look at green energy, lol.

You can plan a national effort to promote domestic manufacturing and initially subsidize small, independent, American owned businesses. You can.

You can also plan a national effort to become energy independent as Brazil did. Here’s a couple analysis of the Brazilian lesson. One is very pro-drilling and one stresses conservation and alternative energy option. IMO, all will be needed if the USA is to become more energy independent.

http://environment.ncpa.org/commentaries/brazils-energy-plan-examined

PDF

law.wustl.edu/WUGSLR/Issues/Volume7_2/Potter.pdf

 
 
 
Comment by Jim A.
2010-08-23 05:32:41

Most of these people made enough to live a comfortable existance. Most could have afforded to buy a 1200 sq ft of the sort that they probably grew up in, at least at pre-bubble prices. And if they had, they could have had years of ammortization behind them. After all people who bought 10 years ago and never took equity out ARE NOT UNDERWATER. But instead they allowed themselves to be convinced that the “needed and deserved” a 2400 ft McMansion of the sort that apes the houses of the rich. It’s not so much that they were under the illusion that they were middle class; it’s that the were under the illusion that today’s middle class could affort to live the lives of yesterdays wealthy.

Comment by TCM_guy
2010-08-23 07:29:29

How much of this entitlement attitude was a result of ‘lifestyles of the rich and famous’ that was piped into people’s domiciles in living color?

How much of it was a result of Pat Robertson’s ‘I don’t understand what people have against GB II. Just look around you - prosperity is everywhere.’

People don’t develop these attitudes by themselves. The boob tuve has lots to do with it. We have not one but several generations that believe that TV is real. For many, mind numbing TV is their elixir of choice. But fantasy wonderlands are best when displayed at Disney World. At least the sheeple know it’s a fantasy at Disney.

People are smart stupid.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Jim A.
2010-08-23 07:48:16

Well I wouldn’t blame Lifestyles, after all that STATES that it’s about the rich and famous. Rather look at regular sitcoms/dramas and see the sorts of places people live. While there ARE shows that show modest living spaces (eg How I met your mother) I would argue that MOST show an above median lifestyle, and imply that it is average. Set design tends to skew big simply because that make blocking easier, and keeps multiple cameras out of each others ways.

 
Comment by TCM_guy
2010-08-23 08:13:50

I think this Hollywood portrayal of largess as ‘normal’ began with the Brady Bunch, in the early 70’s. A guy on an architect’s salary, with all of those kids, a housekeeper, a big house and a new station wagon.

 
Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 08:15:19

That doesn’t explain HGTV. :roll:

and, for being named Home and Garden TV, I see a whole lot more home than garden on that blasted channel. Probably because you can’t get much product placement value out of a $1.59 tomato plant.

 
Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 08:39:24

MTV “Cribs” and “Pimp my Ride” sure didn’t do the mindless masses any favors…

 
Comment by polly
2010-08-23 08:44:28

I cannot recommend enough Juliet Schor’s, “The Overspent American.” She did fairly extensive research on the effect of television watching on spending habits. It is a little out of date since she did the research before the real upswing of reality television, but she completely confirms Jim’s hypothsis that people see folks on TV living a certain lifestyle with certain amenities and assume that it is realistic, when the jobs their characters supposedly have could never support the life they are depicted living.

Paperback can be had new on Amazon for about $9. Used hardcover from $0.09.

 
Comment by butters
2010-08-23 09:05:10

I loved married with children. Al Bundy drove an ancient dodge and lived in a house that was crap. Very realistic IMO and that was 20 yrs ago.

 
Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 10:08:27

Think what those Brady family trips to Hawaii and the Grand Canyon cost with all of those plane tickets and no priceline?

 
Comment by Jim A.
2010-08-23 11:40:04

I don’t think that the creation of priceline was anywhere near as big a factor as the elimination of the Civil Aviation Board in the price of airline tickets.

 
Comment by In Montana
2010-08-23 14:54:03

“began with the Brady Bunch, in the early 70’s.”

Oh no, the shows from the 1950s always showed pretty affluent people too. It used to blow my mind the houses Cleaver or My Three Sons lived in.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-08-23 20:29:59

I dunno montana:

Most of the older houses had a Big eat in kitchen and no separate dining room and a big living area, and barely enough room for 2 twin beds or a double and 2 dressers in the bedrooms….and most of the people i grew up with had a station wagon, our street was full of construction workers, and only a few had more then 3 kids

 
 
Comment by REhobbyist
2010-08-23 07:49:27

Yes Jim. Here in Sacramento I’m seeing more short sales of houses belonging to elderly people who bought them years ago and probably paid them off, only to take out $200,000+ mortgages five years ago. They’ll probably move in with children or grandchildren, offering their social security checks to help pay the rent/mortgage.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by SaladSD
2010-08-23 13:11:40

Here’s a nice morality tale of excess & poor taste:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/38815126

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2010-08-23 05:25:28

twice as many people were taking advantage of his social service organization’s free meals program, and some were even driving up in BMWs — apparently reluctant to give up the expensive cars that reminded them of better times.

Still faking it, more like. Personally, if I were going to a food bank, I’d park the Bimmer around the corner.

Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 05:55:36

They are also reluctant to sell the BMW because they figure that the next job is only weeks or months away. They don’t want to go to the trouble of trading down, only to have to rebuy a better car again later. Lots of folks doing this with houses too.

duration duration duration…

Comment by exeter
2010-08-23 06:02:15

There it is….. just a personalized way of kicking the can down the road….. because everyone knows the good times are right around the corner./sarcasm off

These morons are in for a rude awakening.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 07:51:01

There it is….. just a personalized way of kicking the can down the road….. because everyone knows the good times are right around the corner./sarcasm off

These morons are in for a rude awakening.

You mean another one?

 
 
Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 06:58:56

The BMW may not be theirs to sell. It may be leased.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 08:41:39

Keep that Bimmer on the move - the repo guys would never think of checking the food bank parking lot.

 
 
Comment by Captain Credit Crunch
2010-08-23 08:02:18

Better keep the car as long as you can. Only the state wins when you buy another one–instant 10% tax.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Kim
2010-08-23 06:20:45

I’m not without sympathy here, but do the benefactors of the food bank really want to see (or hear about) their donations riding away in a BMW?

Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 07:50:58

Good point, Kim.

Back when I worked at our local university, our office had an annual toy drive. The Salvation Army managed it, and ours was but one of many offices that participated.

Well, then came donation pickup day. The local fishwrap had a photo of someone loading new toys into the back of a new pickup truck. And, oh, boy, did that set off a firestorm around Tucson.

It seems that a lot of Tucsonans didn’t have the wherewithal to buy new pickups, yet there was quite a donation drive that ended up going to people who could afford such wheels. Well, the paper quickly noted that the pickup was owned by a friend of the person loading the toys into the back.

But the damage was done.

In short, image does matter.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 06:00:50

“But about 20 percent of the city is what we call at risk of homelessness.”

Greek austerity measures, California style…

 
 
Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 08:02:21

The full online story has this chestnut….

Last week, the leading online columnist Arianna Huffington ….. :lol:

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 09:08:38

Ventura: one of the most difficult places in the USA to build new houses. Very, very tough anti-growth laws.

The result? When the credit bubble hit, Ventura home prices skyrocketed–since at that point, anyone could buy any house at almost any price.

The secondary result? This article. When the economy slows, demand wanes, and credit contracts, prices fall back closer in line with incomes (while still not there yet), and you see the disruptions described.

The problem in Ventura was not overbuilding, it was underbuilding, combined with overlending, and thus prices rising far too high to be stable through an economic cycle.

My point is only that even when supply was dramatically constrained, massive pain is being felt. It’s not a supply problem in many parts of the country, it’s more of a pricing problem and jobless problem.

Comment by cactus
2010-08-23 13:15:58

You moved to Ventura when you were priced out of Santa Barbra and both cities ALWAYS had alot of homeless folks

best weather in the world though pretty easy to be homeless there.

Strict housing compared to Phoenix I bet its no worse than Santa Barbra or Montery. And then there’s Oxnard were some of my old neighbors moved back in 2005 I wonder how they like it now ?

Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 17:22:26

My understanding is that most cities in Ventura County restict housing units annually. My further understanding is that any zone change in the City of Ventura requires a vote of the people.

The requirement for a vote makes it the strictest I’ve seen. To quote S.L. Jackson, it’s not in the same ballpark as Phoenix in terms of entitlement, it’s not even the same sport.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Jack Osborne
2010-08-23 21:30:17

Au contraire, Be a real estate appraiser at the time , I found one developer in SantaRosa developing lots, sidewalks , curbs ,gutters , sewer and water, and selling them for $15,000.

A reasonable price for the neighborhood.

the trouble was the brokers were buying them and selling them for $30,000!

So the developer raised the prices, the comps went up, the land in the area went up, the lots got smaller , the sale prices went up, everyone saw that the money was made in buying and selling homes, and we got the price inflation and loan problems.

Unstoppable, at the time.

Saw this on MarketTicker, and it should have been a mantra for everyone

“Look, the laws of economics on this are simple:
Home prices cannot ascend, over long periods of time, faster than real wages. That is, you cannot afford more house unless you make and bring home more money, in terms of dollars.

 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 13:08:44

The super rich (outside of a very few spectacular exceptions) are congratulating themselves for spending LESS on charity.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 04:12:59

I thought Kalifornia was having money troubles…Guess not.

LA unveils $578M school, costliest in the nation

LOS ANGELES(AP) – Next month’s opening of the Robert F. Kennedy Community Schools will be auspicious for a reason other than its both storied and infamous history as the former Ambassador Hotel, where the Democratic presidential contender was assassinated in 1968.

With an eye-popping price tag of $578 million, it will mark the inauguration of the nation’s most expensive public school ever.

The K-12 complex to house 4,200 students has raised eyebrows across the country as the creme de la creme of “Taj Mahal” schools, $100 million-plus campuses boasting both architectural panache and deluxe amenities.

“There’s no more of the old, windowless cinderblock schools of the ’70s where kids felt, ‘Oh, back to jail,’” said Joe Agron, editor-in-chief of American School & University, a school construction journal. “Districts want a showpiece for the community, a really impressive environment for learning.”

Not everyone is similarly enthusiastic.

“New buildings are nice, but when they’re run by the same people who’ve given us a 50 percent dropout rate, they’re a big waste of taxpayer money,” said Ben Austin, executive director of Parent Revolution who sits on the California Board of Education. “Parents aren’t fooled.”

At RFK, the features include fine art murals and a marble memorial depicting the complex’s namesake, a manicured public park, a state-of-the-art swimming pool and preservation of pieces of the original hotel.

Partly by circumstance and partly by design, the Los Angeles Unified School District has emerged as the mogul of Taj Mahals.

The RFK complex follows on the heels of two other LA schools among the nation’s costliest — the $377 million Edward R. Roybal Learning Center, which opened in 2008, and the $232 million Visual and Performing Arts High School that debuted in 2009.

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 08:44:32

I suppose nowhere in the press coverage is the fact that RFK was shot by a Muslim terrorist.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 09:06:24

And that he was tackled by a black man.

That was ex-NFL star Rosie Greer, who was one of RFK’s body guards. Greet took that job because he needed the money. NFL salaries — and the retirement program — weren’t as generous back then.

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 09:48:51

NFL salaries — and the retirement program — weren’t as generous back then.

I forgot about that.

And Greer wasn’t exactly a bench-warmer. He was an all-pro lineman.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2010-08-23 09:19:52

Sirhan Sirhan was actually a Christian IIRC. But he did claim he was motivated by Israel’s treatment of his home country of Palestine.

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 09:45:10

Indeed he was. (Though technically Palestine is a region, not a country)

Most people don’t realize that there are a lot of Christian Arabs, of which many are Palestinians (of which he was one).

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by packman
2010-08-23 10:15:29

P.S. Little-known tidbit - early in Muslim history the Muslims were actually more friendly to the Jews than the Christians were. The Jews were not allowed to practice Judaism freely in Jerusalem under the Holy Roman Empire, however when Muslim Caliph Umar (companion of Muhammed) conquered the area in 638, he started allowing them to.

(Though the early Caliphs’ generosity only went so far, being that they built the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount a few decades later)

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-08-23 10:37:56

Religion is a shield if your behaviors don’t mirror your belief system (for good of course). Rituals, superstitions, and group think, don’t make the person, your character does.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2010-08-23 11:54:49

Though technically Palestine is a region, not a country

I think that’s what he was mad about.

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-08-23 20:44:53

I would have like to see that place go up in smoke as part of our shock and awe….It might get them people to think about what is really important ….with one less symbol to kill each other over…maybe they will just get along?

Though the early Caliphs’ generosity only went so far, being that they built the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount a few decades later

 
 
 
Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 10:04:04

Sirhan Sirhan was not a Muslim. He was a Palestinian Christian.

Sirhan apparently killed RFK for his pro-Israeli stance. Sirhan also was mentally ill. The combination of politics and Sirhan’s aberrant behavior made the trial a real media circus, as I recall.

 
Comment by Timmy Boy
2010-08-24 04:23:34

“Muslim Terrorist”

Redundant.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 04:16:22

Housing Slide in U.S. Threatens to Drag Economy Into Recession

One in seven mortgages were delinquent or in foreclosure during the first quarter, the highest in records dating to 1979.

Housing led the U.S. out of seven of the last eight recessions. This time, it may kill the recovery.

Home sales collapsed after a federal tax credit for buyers expired in April. Since then, the manufacturing-led expansion, which began in the second half of 2009, has been waning, with jobless claims rising and factory orders falling.

“If foreclosures continue to mount and depress home prices, that could send the economy back into a recession,” said Celia Chen, an economist who tracks the industry for Moody’s Analytics Inc. “The housing market and the broader economy are closely intertwined.”

Spending on home construction and items such as furniture and stoves accounted for about 15 percent of gross domestic product in the second quarter, according to West Chester, Pennsylvania-based Moody’s Analytics. Real estate also can influence consumer spending indirectly. When values soared in the mid-2000s, people used the boost in equity to pay for cars and vacations. After prices fell, homeowners lost that cushion and curbed spending.

A report tomorrow by the Chicago-based National Association of Realtors will show July sales of existing homes plummeted 12.9 percent from June, the biggest monthly loss of 2010, according to the median estimate of economists surveyed by Bloomberg.

Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 08:45:14

Why is it you can have a “jobless-recovery”, but not an “over-priced-houseless recovery”? Why is that?

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 12:10:48

What recovery?

 
 
Comment by exeter
2010-08-23 04:33:14

Realtors are corrupt.

Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 09:11:19

At least realtors are predictable–they don’t get paid unless they sell, so guess what? They are going to try to sell you on something. At least you know what you’re going to get.

I think I’m going to try Redfin when I begin looking for a house (in probably 2012-2013). Their agents are salaried.

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-08-23 10:59:51

Red is no different than others, other than you might be in a real commission rebate area and not a partner area. The rebate difference is huge. (check it out). Basically they buy thier clients, but our experience wasn’t impressive.

We’ve been to their buyer pitch class and they aren’t as transparent as they preach. They manufactured demand through omission. Of course, having a few of us “mouths” in the class didn’t help their cause. Their data points had an objective, imo. Remember they are in the biz, just found a nicer way into our hearts and wallets. BTW, their salary structue isn’t all salary. Depending on the situation and market area, they might be a good choice or bad, imo.

One more thing, we viewed homes with an Agent of theirs, and she wasn’t on our side. She was spending our $ (verbally) like water, and she kept on telling us to deal with the market conditions. Not exactly buyer oriented.

 
Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-08-23 11:27:23

It’s almost refreshing to talk to a realtor after coming from your dentist after hearing yet ANOTHER spiel about how awesom invisaline is (at buying your dentist a porche.)

 
Comment by exeter
2010-08-23 15:40:14

“At least realtors are predictable–they don’t get paid unless they sell, so guess what? They are going to try to sell you on something.”

Another way of saying………

Realtors are corrupt.

Comment by robin
2010-08-23 22:21:16

Realtors are Dentists.

Inflicting pain for their own gain.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 10:15:38

I don’t care if realtors are corrupt. I worry more about how perfect their hair is of what kind of car they drive or why does this person not even fainly resemble their “head-shot”.

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-08-23 13:03:29

I’ll keep that in mind pressborardbox, since I plan to hang my license this week, so infestor/flippers don’t get to good buys before we do. I’ll make sure I get all dolled up, and rent a MBZ, on the way to my glamour shot! :)

 
 
 
Comment by palmetto
2010-08-23 04:56:36

Why does the New York Times have such stupid titles for their stories? Insipid, inane, trivial, pompous and pseudo-intellectual.

Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 06:12:15

…and attention-grabbing and ratings-rich.

Comment by palmetto
2010-08-23 09:32:09

The NYT has good ratings? News to me. I thought they were in the tank and had to bend over for Carlos Slim in order to stay alive. Too bad. Giving a forum to folks like Friedman and Krugman is just a waste of trees and bandwith, IMO. Although Krugman may have had a good point or two on occasion, Friedman is a fatuous, pompous sack of wind with his globalization mantra. How’s that working out for us? The guy basically drooled at every chance he had to put down the middle class. “You’re going down”, was his message. “Enjoy the ride!”

Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 10:12:57

Friedman is a fatuous, pompous sack of wind

Well said. I couldn’t agree with you more.
:-)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 11:13:17

Thomas Friedman (no relation to Milton Friedman) appears to laud totalitarian government of China since they make the trains run on time as it were.

To me, “globalization” was an extremely generous foreign-aid package put out by the US government.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by packman
2010-08-23 11:20:45

Thomas Friedman (no relation to Milton Friedman) appears to laud totalitarian government of China since they make the trains run on time as it were.

If so, Friedman may want to check out the 9-day traffic jam going on right now on Hwy 110 into Beijing.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 12:18:40

If so, Friedman may want to check out the 9-day traffic jam going on right now on Hwy 110 into Beijing.

Yeah, but they always have alternatives:

Hwy50 through Mongolia! ;-)

 
Comment by TCM_guy
2010-08-23 19:45:13

Wait until the Chinese banking implodes after their RE collapse. (How many of their apartments in their largest cities are MT?) And then Mr Friedman can tell us on MSNBC how nobody saw it coming, since after all, their trains ran on time?

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2010-08-23 05:16:37

When do the banksters get sentenced?

Homeless Man Sentenced 25 Years to Life for Stealing Food Released From Prison Today

Gregory Taylor has served 13 years of his 25-to-life sentence for “trying to break in to a church kitchen to find something to eat,” and today he is a free man, according to an AP report published on the Huffington Post.

Taylor became a prime example of California’s three-strikes law perhaps at its least effective; though the now 47-year-old was at the time homeless and struggling with addiction, his prior convictions were from the prior decade, one for “stealing a purse containing $10 and another time for trying to rob a man on the street. He didn’t use a weapon in either case, and no one was injured.” He was arrested in 1997 for trying to break into a L.A. church kitchen to get food.

While incarcerated, Taylor completed his GED, and has plans to live in Pomona and work with his younger brother who runs a food pantry there. His release is the result of an appeal filed earlier this year through Stanford Law School’s Three-Strikes Project, which seeks the early release of those convicted of non-violent crimes.

Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 08:53:59

Hey, those guys saved our whole financial system which saved all of us. We should send them cards of thanks (with money enclosed).

Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 13:13:00

Won’t somebody PLEASE think of the CEOs?

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 13:15:17

Stanford Law School’s Three-Strikes Project

In the future, The University Administration ought to purchase & utilize a Standford logo “free bread” kiosk wagon and place it at the “local” low-income park, students could get credits for volunteering…I’m certain other “Corporations” would pay $$$ to plaster their ad logo’s on it. Additionally, they could then use those funds to get the “local” community College to buy supplies & bake the bread. Moreover, they could incorporate the “local” technical school to have someone “service/maintain” the kiosk wagon & baking equipment. Furthermore, networking with a “local” private military school might provide a small security detail for the Standford 3rd Infantry kiosk wagon volunteers.

Strike that, incarcerating people in State/private prison’s results in far more economically “efficient” use of taxpayer money.

Strike that, the guys a repeat offender, his punishment didn’t fit the crime!

(Oh darn, now I missed a IM from my Scott Trade broker regarding a GoldenmanSucks IPO.)

 
 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2010-08-23 05:25:41

Atlanta Homeless Shelter Foreclosed On

You’re listening to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News.

The homeless problem in Atlanta may soon get worse. The city’s largest homeless shelter has been foreclosed on because the group running it is deep in debt.

Some say the foreclosure is a conspiracy to rid downtown Atlanta of homeless men, while others claim the shelter is a steady source of crime and civic frustration.

From Georgia Public Broadcasting, Susanna Capelouto reports.

SUSANNA CAPELOUTO: About a hundred homeless men and their advocates gathered in front of the Peachtree-Pine Shelter on the edge of downtown Atlanta a few weeks ago to protest its foreclosure.

Unidentified Group: Being poor is not a crime. Keep your hands off Peachtree-Pine.

CAPELOUTO: The scene evoked memories of Atlanta’s civil rights past as the Reverend Timothy McDonald vowed to fight for the shelter.

Reverend TIMOTHY McDONALD (Senior Pastor, First Iconium Baptist Church): And we will not allow you to take away their home. We will stand to the very last drop.

CAPELOUTO: The shelter does not turn anyone away. It holds about 400 people a night in the summer and 600 during the winter, but it’s not easy living. The place has no hot water, no air-conditioning and no paid staff. The kitchen is inoperable, and food only comes when church members bring it in. The walls are cracked and in desperate need of a paint job.

Amir Hussein(ph) has been here three weeks and is trying to leave.

Mr. AMIR HUSSEIN: Well, I got my clothes stolen in here and lost my money, and so I’m kind of stuck.

Ms. PEGGY DENBY (Head of Security, Midtown Neighborhood Association): It contributes heavily to our crime rate.

CAPELOUTO: Peggy Denby heads security for the nearby Midtown Neighborhood Association. She blames the shelter for petty crimes.

Ms. DENBY: These men walk the streets all day every day. Everything we have is at risk of being stolen or broken. They break into a huge number of cars.

CAPELOUTO: Records show Atlanta police respond to the shelter almost daily for things like disorderly conduct or liquor law violations. The shelter’s owner, the Task Force for the Homeless, has lost major donors over the years.

Anita Beaty has led the task force for almost three decades. She says city and business leaders are conspiring against her. She’s filed lawsuits charging they teamed up to cut off funding to the shelter, and that she says has forced her to run up a $900,000 debt.

Ms. ANITA BEATY (Executive Director, Metro Atlanta Task Force for the Homeless): For the last 15 years, the city worked day and night along with the business community to eliminate the presence of African-American men who are homeless from the streets of downtown.

CAPELOUTO: City and business leaders would not comment for this story, citing the lawsuits, but they issued a statement saying they are concerned for the men at Peachtree-Pine.

Comment by 2banana
2010-08-23 06:49:38

The shelter does not turn anyone away. It holds about 400 people a night in the summer and 600 during the winter, but it’s not easy living. The place has no hot water, no air-conditioning and no paid staff. The kitchen is inoperable, and food only comes when church members bring it in. The walls are cracked and in desperate need of a paint job.

So how did this place get so deep in debt????

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 07:18:03

So how did this place get so deep in debt????

Property taxes maybe?

 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 13:16:37

Unidentified Group: Being poor is not a crime

They’re wrong. Being poor IS a crime.

 
Comment by Happy2bHeard
2010-08-23 18:06:26

“Amir Hussein(ph) has been here three weeks and is trying to leave.

Mr. AMIR HUSSEIN: Well, I got my clothes stolen in here and lost my money, and so I’m kind of stuck. ”

Mr. Hussein would concur with Ms. Denby that the crime rate is high.

 
 
Comment by Lip
2010-08-23 05:29:02

The U.S. Housing Fetish Hurts the American Dream

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2010/08/23/the_us_housing_fetish_hurt_the_american_dream_98635.html

“Government subsidizes homeownership in two ways: through tax and spending policies and through credit markets.”

Taking away the tax benefits “would” destroy what is left of the housing market and is probably impossible [politically speaking]. I know some on this blog want to take away this tax break but once you finally find that house of your dreams, you will appreciate it.

Comment by Captain Credit Crunch
2010-08-23 08:08:25

I don’t want it. I don’t appreciate it. Half the country doesn’t even get to use it because their yearly interest doesn’t exceed the standard deduction. What I would enjoy is the instant property value decline due to the removal of the deduction. Whammo! My cash stash goes up in relative housing value.

 
Comment by Shelby
2010-08-23 11:50:46

America needs to quit “DREAMING” !!

 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 13:19:24

Take away the tax breaks and other government “incentives” from all the other industries and our entire economy would collapse.

Don’t blame the gov, blame the corporate lobbyists.

Comment by aNYCdj
2010-08-23 21:51:06

Not so Eco:

no tax breaks in exchange for for no income tax on profits, and since corps will not pay taxes there would be no rebate for losses…

sounds fair to me

 
 
 
Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 05:41:12

“There is no iron law that real estate must appreciate”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38811725/ns/business-the_new_york_times

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 07:05:18

Also…

In an annual survey conducted by the economists Robert J. Shiller and Karl E. Case, hundreds of new owners in four communities — Alameda County near San Francisco, Boston, Orange County south of Los Angeles, and Milwaukee — once again said they believed prices would rise about 10 percent a year for the next decade.

Doesn’t Case/Schiller cover something like 20 metro areas? Does this mean that those 4 named metros are the anomoly?

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 07:09:35

Out of the probably 1M owners in those areas, wouldn’t “hundreds” of them still just be about 0.05%?

Not that I doubt that it’s a significant number of people - I just really hate when the “hundreds of…”, “dozens of…”, “thousands of…” terminology gets thrown around, implying that it’s some large percentage of the people, when it actually isn’t at all.

Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-08-23 11:33:07

Yup, they’re just saying that there are hundreds of idiots in those areas. I knew that. There are millions of idiots in the country in general, so you’d expect a few in each location.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Happy2bHeard
2010-08-23 18:14:33

“new owners”

They have to believe this. Prices just dropped and they were lucky enough to get in at the new bottom, dontcha know.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 05:58:56

Quantitative easing

The term quantitative easing (QE) describes a monetary policy used by central banks to increase the supply of money in an economy when the bank interest rate, discount rate and/or interbank interest rate are either at, or close to, zero.[citation needed] A central bank does this by first crediting its own account with money it has created ex nihilo (”out of nothing”).[1] It then purchases financial assets, including government bonds, mortgage-backed securities and corporate bonds, from banks and other financial institutions in a process referred to as open market operations. The purchases, by way of account deposits, give banks the excess reserves required for them to create new money, and thus a hopeful stimulation of the economy, by the process of deposit multiplication from increased lending in the fractional reserve banking system. Risks include the policy being more effective than intended, spurring hyperinflation, or the risk of not being effective enough, if banks opt simply to pocket the additional cash in order to increase their capital reserves in a climate of increasing defaults in their present loan portfolio.[1]

“Quantitative” refers to the fact that a specific quantity of money is being created; “easing” refers to reducing the pressure on banks.[2] However, another explanation is that the name comes from the Japanese-language expression for “stimulatory monetary policy”, which uses the term “easing”.[3] Quantitative easing is sometimes colloquially described as “printing money” although in reality the money is simply created by electronically adding a number to an account. Examples of economies where this policy has been used include Japan during the early 2000s, and the United States and United Kingdom during the global financial crisis of 2008–2009.

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 07:03:00

Examples of economies where this policy has been used include Japan during the early 2000s, and the United States and United Kingdom during the global financial crisis of 2008–2009.

Interesting that only the very benign cases are indicated.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 12:10:10

Now, let’s us gander askance at the musings of…China / “TrueBambooLie™” :-)

Ho ho, hah hah, hehehehehehe, BwaHaHaAhHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! (Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb-thrower™)

A dark Cave. In the middle, a Caldron boiling. Thunder.

(Enter the three Witches.)

1 WITCH. Thrice the brinded cat hath mew’d.
2 WITCH. Thrice and once, the hedge-pig whin’d.
3 WITCH. Harpier cries:—’tis time! ’tis time!

1 WITCH. Round about the caldron go;
In the poison’d entrails throw.—
Toad, that under cold stone,
Days and nights has thirty-one;
Swelter’d venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first i’ the charmed pot!

(ALL.) “Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble.”

Comparison with other instruments
Qualitative easing:

Willem Buiter has proposed a terminology to distinguish quantitative easing, or an expansion of a central bank’s balance sheet, from what he terms qualitative easing, or the process of a central bank adding riskier assets onto its balance sheet:

Quantitative easing is an increase in the size of the balance sheet of the central bank through an increase it is [sic] monetary liabilities (base money), holding constant the composition of its assets. Asset composition can be defined as the proportional shares of the different financial instruments held by the central bank in the total value of its assets. An almost equivalent definition would be that quantitative easing is an increase in the size of the balance sheet of the central bank through an increase in its monetary liabilities that holds constant the (average) liquidity and riskiness of its asset portfolio.

Qualitative easing is a shift in the composition of the assets of the central bank towards less liquid and riskier assets, holding constant the size of the balance sheet (and the official policy rate and the rest of the list of usual suspects). The less liquid and more risky assets can be private securities as well as sovereign or sovereign-guaranteed instruments. All forms of risk, including credit risk (default risk) are included.

BWAHAHAHicHAHAHicHAHAHAHAHicHAHAHic* (DennisN™) ;-)

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 06:07:00

The Financial Times
GM is just a hedge fund in disguise
By Tony Jackson
Published: August 22 2010 16:11 | Last updated: August 22 2010 16:11

The US’s purblind attitude to the pensions crisis seems curiously hard to shake. The latest instance is the impending initial public offering of General Motors.

Emerging like a butterfly from the chrysalis of bankruptcy, GM is being excitedly touted as worth $60bn-plus. But closer inspection of its gigantic pension fund suggests that in the long run, the business may be worth nothing at all.

As I pointed out last summer, the essential flaw in the GM rescue was that the fund – the largest private sector pension plan in the world, with $100bn-odd of liabilities – was being transferred untouched to the new entity.

GM is making no contributions to the fund for now. But drawing on work by John Ralfe, the UK pensions consultant, I suggested it might have to put in $1bn-$2bn a year in future.

It seems we were wrong about that. GM now says it may have to put in $4.3bn in 2014 and $5.7bn in 2015, with possibly more to follow.

That should be set alongside results from the new GM released last week. Second-quarter earnings were the highest since 2004. Even so, first-half operating income was only $2.9bn. Double that for an annual figure and those prospective payments would only just be covered.

It might be argued that a stated pensions deficit of only $27bn worldwide is not really a problem. GM could borrow the difference, as it did for an $18.5bn payment into the fund in 2003. But the benefit of that supposedly one-off contribution – the reason for GM’s present pension holiday – is running out. And in the interim, remember, GM went bust.

Meanwhile, GM’s perennial hopeless optimism is on full display. The assets in its US fund are still officially expected to return 8.5 per cent a year.

How exactly that is to be achieved is not clear. But it stands in curious contrast to the conventional prudent assumption, which is that pension assets should give a risk-adjusted return equal to the yield on Treasury bonds. And the US 10-year Treasury yield is now just 2.6 per cent.

To put that from another angle, GM’s annual payments to its US pensioners are running at $9.3bn. On US fund assets of $85bn, that ostensibly requires a return of 10.9 per cent.

Comment by Jim A.
2010-08-23 06:16:01

Now unlike the “they went through bankruptcy” discussion the other day, THIS is a VERY GOOD reason not to buy that stock.

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 06:35:23

Like many other potential investments in 20th-Century American corporate behemoths, this one seems to a large extent a gamble on how effectively the company can escape its pension and retiree medical obligations going forward. Good luck with that roll of the dice!

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 07:10:31

They can’t expect any relief from the retireee medical obligations going forward, since Medicare will be cut to fund Obamacare. Had more spending on Medicare been in the cards, GM may have benefited.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 08:17:44

No, Medicare Advantage will be cut to fund Obamacare.

 
Comment by varelse
2010-08-23 09:52:44

Ahhhh…..Medicare Advantage…..the “evil” Medicare.

 
 
 
 
Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 06:36:03

Maybe GM can hire Andy Fastow on work-release from prison to be CFO and get the company’s finances on track.

 
Comment by 2banana
2010-08-23 06:42:59

Any fool who buys the “new” GM stock is, well, a fool.

It is too bad - if GM were allowed to go through a REAL BK in which it shed union contracts, union pensions and other union insanity, it actually might make a decent investment (for example, GM is the #1 car seller in China).

I foresee a quick rally in GM stock, reality setting in and a slow, agonizing death.

There will be no second $50 billion obama bailout of GM.

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 06:55:35

Fools should be lauded for their role in forestalling outright economic collapse and for relieving taxpayers’ burden in righting the collapsed financial system.

 
Comment by TCM_guy
2010-08-23 09:13:01

Correct. The next GM bailout will be >$100 billion under some other administration.

Comment by varelse
2010-08-23 09:54:05

You really don’t see another bailout coming before ‘16?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by TCM_guy
2010-08-23 20:06:46

No. These things take time.

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 11:56:30

under some other administration

1930’s Studebaker Corporation Redux ;-)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by goirishgohoosiers
2010-08-23 13:25:01

And a lot of long term good that did, since Stude closed up shop by 1964. To some, that event marked the beginning of the end of ‘Merica’s manufacturing dominance.

PS: I post from the city that Studebaker once called home. Starting about a year ago, one could see “Bail Out Studebaker” stickers on cars around here. Most everyone got a laugh, but it kinda makes one wonder what would’ve happened if the Powers That Were threw a few billion our way here.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 14:06:31

Studebaker Brothers 1964 = Lehman Brothers 2010 ;-)

Let the “competition” die…but have the US Gov’t & Uncle Warren save US GS!

 
 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 13:41:02

It is too bad - if GM were allowed to go through a REAL BK in which it shed union contracts, union pensions and other union insanity,

Total labor costs per vehicle is $3000. Whats the other $20,000 for?

 
 
Comment by WT Economist
2010-08-23 07:20:26

If GM could ever stop shrinking, eventually enough of their retirees from the days when they had 1 million-plus workers will die, and the ratio of workers to retirees could become normal.

GM has already ditched its retiree health care obligations.

 
 
Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 06:08:17

Thank you Ben, for injecting some variety in the blog ads!

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 06:14:42

Topic:
Great Recession
Monday, Aug 23, 2010 08:30 ET
War Room
The creeping threat of backdoor privatization
By Alyssa Battistoni

It has come to this: Parents are now being asked to send their children to school with their own toilet paper. And not just toilet paper, but all sorts of basic items that schools themselves used to provide for kids. It’s all part of a disturbing trend, highlighted by the New York Times last week, of cash-strapped public schools — their budgets eviscerated by state cutbacks — shifting more and more financial responsibility onto parents.

Privatization meant transferring responsibility for entire programs or functions to the private sector. But with the drastic budget cuts that states have been forced to make, responsibility for public services and programs is literally being forced into private hands one roll of toilet paper at a time. We’ve entered the era of backdoor privatization.

On the surface, these stop-gap measures don’t seem unreasonable. After all, it’s hardly new for parents in well-off school districts to chip in for supplies, music classes and even teacher’s salaries in an effort to minimize the effect of school budget cuts on their children. What is new, though, is the extent to which families are being asked to contribute basic items. This may be too much to ask of parents who are struggling to pay their own bills — especially since they’ve already paid taxes that are supposed to support the public school system.

Nor is backdoor privatization a phenomenon limited to local schools.

Public university systems are increasingly emulating private universities by turning to wealthy alumni for donations — even as tuition rises because some legislators see hiking it as a way to raise money for their fungible state budget items.

Missouri, Georgia, and Arizona have been forced to slash their transit budgets and services, leaving hundreds of thousands without a way to get to their jobs, or to a doctor, or school. This has forced thousands of people to revert to private modes of transportation.

Many states have also cut funding for fire and police departments, resulting in slower emergency response times and diminished crime investigation. Fire department cuts have exacerbated the trend in wildfire-prone areas (among those who can afford it) of hiring private firefighting companies to protect homes, heralding a return to the 19th-century practice in which private firefighting companies raced each other to put out blazes and collect their reward.

Some towns have even started to shut off street lights to save money on electricity bills.

This backdoor privatization diminishes the quantity and quality of the services available to the general public while nurturing the growth of a parallel profit-making infrastructure for those who can afford supplementary services.

Comment by 2banana
2010-08-23 06:46:41

It is amazing to see what towns, cities and states will cut BEFORE they touch one public union salary, benefit or pension.

Public servants - All of the costs and none of the services.

Comment by Rancher
2010-08-23 07:17:28

We saw a 40% increase in city staff in the last
five years while population grew by 2%.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 13:44:50

Here, have another stick for that dead horse.

Thank god they aren’t using that money to buy goods and services from their political friends and million dollar salaries for the top administrators and overseas “fact finding” trips.

Oh wait…

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 06:27:44

The missing element in Mittonomics appears to be affordable housing; not the version promoted by DC propagandists, where various subsidies offered on a discriminatory basis to select U.S. subpopulations end up driving housing prices out of reach for virtually everyone, but the type of affordability which results when subsidies are eliminated and the invisible hand of the free market is allowed to find a fundamental equilibrium between housing prices and local households’ ability to pay for a home yet leave money in the family budget for other expenditures.

The ability of American households to fund those other, non-housing expenditures are what’s needed to solve Mitt’s “wet noodle problem.”

Wednesday, Aug 18, 2010 15:35 ET
Mitt Romney’s wet noodle economics
He tries to make a case for simultaneous tax cuts and budget balancing, but it’s impossible
By Robert Reich

In today’s (Wednesday’s) Boston Globe op-ed Romney attacks Obama’s economic policies for being ineffective and calls for what he calls a “growth and jobs” agenda. Here are the main points:

– match U.S. corporate taxes with those of other developed economies,

– preserve the Bush tax cuts for everyone, “especially small business,”

– allow businesses to write off capital investments made in 2010 and 2011 rather than over time,

– eliminate taxes on investment dividends,

– eliminate taxes on capital gains and interest for households earning less than $250,000 a year, and

– balance the federal budget.

Apart from the impossibility of simultaneously cutting taxes and balancing the budget without taking a meat cleaver to Social Security, Medicare, and defense spending (Romney delicately sidesteps this conundrum by urging we “reshape government programs” and “restructure entitlements”), his policies raise a more fundamental problem.

Call it the wet-noodle problem.

For Romney, the key to America’s recovery is to cut taxes on businesses and on people who invest in them. These steps, he says, are the “conditions that enable businesses of all sizes to grow and thrive.” In other words, if businesse get more capital at less cost, they’ll create jobs.

But anyone looking closely at the American economy today would see this is nonsense. American corporations have an unprecedented $1.8 trillion of cash. The Fed, meanwhile, has slashed interest rates to essentially zero – a record low – and is still holding over $2 trillion in securities that it said last week it will keep from shrinking. And a Federal Reserve survey released earlier this week showed that banks have been making it easier for businesses of all sizes to get loans. Credit standards for small firms have been loosened for the first time since late 2006.

In other words, businesses have all the capital they need. They’re sitting on it or can borrow it more cheaply than ever. But they aren’t using it to create jobs.

Why not? Because there’s not enough demand for their products or services. Consumers aren’t buying.

Retail sales continue to slide. Wal-Mart, Home Depot, and Target report disappointing sales for July. Same with popular back-to-school retailers like Aeropostale, American Eagle Outfitters, and TJX. Housing sales are down. Appliances are down. (Cars sales are up a bit but that’s mainly because they fell to record lows in 2008 and 2009, and by now some people who have held back need another.)

Romney’s supply-side economics won’t create jobs. It’s pushing on a wet noodle. Businesses create jobs only if consumers are pulling the noodle from the other end.

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 07:20:38

Reserve survey released earlier this week showed that banks have been making it easier for businesses of all sizes to get loans. Credit standards for small firms have been loosened for the first time since late 2006.

I don’t understand this part. Aren’t credit standards going up rather than down? At least in the mortgage segment lending standards are tightening up.

Comment by In Colorado
2010-08-23 10:48:17

I know a guy who runs a small biz that cleans up oil well drill sites. He’s turning business away for cash flow reasons and say’s he can’t get credit, even with contracts in hand.

Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 13:51:24

A lot of that going around. The FIRE sector is basically trying to extort the entire nation.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by butters
2010-08-23 08:38:33

Romney’s supply-side economics won’t create jobs.

Oh, it will but not in this country.

This is the best the other party has to offer. Balance the federal budget, but he doesn’t say how, does he? Also he doesn’t seem to believe that the war machine is a drag to our economy, does he?

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 08:54:38

In other words, businesses have all the capital they need. They’re sitting on it or can borrow it more cheaply than ever. But they aren’t using it to create jobs.

Oh, we fair thee well sweet nectar of the “Single Transaction / Deposit” …with a koi pond ;-)

Somebody get the Vector Control Dept. on the job right away…we need $100,000 / $300,000 / $500,000 / $750,000+ investment denominations ASAP…or,… this sucker could all go down!

Comment by Eddie
2010-08-23 13:01:03

What in the world are you talking about?

Comment by In Montana
2010-08-23 15:06:49

No one knows.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 15:30:43

To quote the immortal Capt. Kirk….

Back in the 60’s Hwy was at Berkeley…I think he did a little too much LDS.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-08-24 05:43:53

Nah Dennis;

he was friends with Wavy Gravy…..enough said:

http://www.wavygravy.net/

 
 
 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 13:48:47

Like I said, voodoo, er, supply side “economics is all about raising prices when times are good and claiming scarcity and raising prices when times are tough while claiming lack of income.

The same with jobs: cut jobs or freeze hiring and salaries while times are good while claiming efficiency and cuts job and freeze hiring and wages when times are hard while claiming hardship.

Heads they win, tails you lose.

Thank you Raygun.

 
 
Comment by obamanator
2010-08-23 06:30:18

The proposed 2010 property values came out this morning for Palm Beach County, Fl. The house I am renting lost an additional 12% in value from 2009. In 2009 it lost 13%. From 2007 to 2010, the value has dropped almost 200k or about 45% (500k to 300k)

What is scary is a house just sold down the street for about 100k more than the property appraiser’s value. Either I am nuts for not buying now, or they are nuts for buying now. If you go by the appraiser’s value,we are back to 2000-2001 prices.

I still believe the other shoe is going to drop and we have another 15-20% to go on the downside.

Thoughts?

Comment by palmetto
2010-08-23 06:38:52

“I still believe the other shoe is going to drop and we have another 15-20% to go on the downside.”

As I’ve said many times on this blog, I’m not the sharpest tool in the financial shed. I’ve been reading some stuff about something called the “Hindenburg Omen”, which is said to ALWAYS appear before a market crash. According to the financial guys who follow that stuff, the Omen has appeared and it is supposed to be about 3-4 months to the crash at the outside.

The property up the street that sold over “appraisal” is either an aberration or it could be fraud, you never know.

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 07:05:57

FWIW though - even though the Hindendberg Omen appears before every crash (though IMO the case is somewhat weak), it also appears before many crashes that don’t happen. Only 25% of the time that the HO criteria is met is there actually a crash after, at least from an article I read the other day (can’t remember the source - I think WSJ).

Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 09:21:56

What is the line about Roubini? He foresaw 6 of the last 2 recessions?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by packman
2010-08-23 09:51:49

Roubini has definitely made the most of his beardom. I see him as the “Rush Limbaugh” of market bears - excellent at taking an idea that’s held by a big set of people in society and marketing it to an extreme. His personal… exploits (we’ll leave it at that)… are legendary.

 
 
 
Comment by oxide
2010-08-23 08:19:25

What is the basis for the 3-4 month time frame? There’s an election in 3-4 months.

 
 
Comment by REhobbyist
2010-08-23 08:03:31

Has anybody seen the Case-Shiller graph of historical home prices lately? House prices are supposed to eventually revert to the historical inflation-adjusted mean. Are we there yet?

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 08:07:31

No

Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 09:37:09

Nice graph. I like that.

I built my own for my area going back to 1987 (I don’t start at the turn of the century, since I lack the data). I’ve been measuring off of the last trough in the SF Bay area in 1996 by price tiers, growing from those points at various rates. I haven’t matched it to CPI (since I don’t believe those numbers are really reflective of true inflation). I ran it with 1-5% growth from the prior trough. I generally see 3% annually as a reasonable number.

If you assume 3% growth from the prior trough, then:

1. The low end hit that 3% growth point in about May 2009, and has since risen to be about 15% above that point. I attribute the fact that the low end didn’t go below that 3% point (and just about touched it, briefly), due to the low interest rates. I don’t expect a further correction at the low end…rates are too low, and supply is too constrained in the SF Bay Area for the low-end housing.

2. The medium and high end still have not hit that 3% price growth line. If you believe that they will, then you should expect prices to fall by approximately 30% more. However, I generally feel that low interest rates will mute the move downward, and we will generally have a slow grind down, until we get back to the inflation curve. I personally think that we have another 10-20% down over the next 3-5 years to get us back to that inflation adjusted price point at the mid to high end.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by packman
2010-08-23 10:01:45

since I don’t believe those numbers are really reflective of true inflation

I’ve thought about this some w/respect to houses. I agree that CPI isn’t really reflective of true inflation, however “true inflation” is very subjective. Everything - and I mean everything - is subject to natural price deflation due to technological/efficiency advances. The most extreme of course are things like computers. The other end is probably energy. Houses are in the middle. There have been of course huge advances in automation/efficiency in homebuilding over the years - from automated wood mills, to efficient concrete pouring, to easier wiring and plumbing (PVC vs. old copper/iron), to sheetrock (a great invention), to things like air-powered nail guns vs. the old hammer.

As such - on the surface it’s interesting that housing has over the past 100 years remained right at the level of CPI (recent bubbles aside). If indeed CPI is lower than true inflation - one would expect housing to rise faster than inflation, since it’s a real true asset; and indeed over time land would get more expensive since it’s a static resource. However I think this has been offset by the efficiency improvements I mentioned.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 10:20:43

Correct me if I’m wrong, but haven’t they monkeyed with the CPI calcs relatively recently? Meaning that inflation figures may have been more appropriate earlier in the 20th century?

That’s why I picked 3%, as my perception is that the goods that go into home construction have generally risen faster than stated inflation (labor, copper, PVC, concrete, asphalt, gasoline for transporting goods, etc., with lumber being the obvious exception, being very volatile).

While technological advances have potentially muted the number (deflated with time), those advances haven’t really lowered the cost to build a house.

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 12:25:22

Prices in the Bay Area will not revert to the 1996 mean, as 1996 was a boom time. They will revert to approximately 100x rent.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 13:12:05

1996 was the trough of the prior housing recession. I would hardly call it a boom time.

 
Comment by Carl Morris
2010-08-23 13:39:55

1996 was the trough of the prior housing recession. I would hardly call it a boom time.

Depends on where you were. The boom had already started in Colorado by then. By 2001 it was pretty much over, bubble financing just kept it from going back down.

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 13:52:55

From my POV, the last housing recession in the Bay Area was just a blip in the big boom that started in the 80s or so. If we are going revert to a mean, I think we have to start in like 1976 or thereabouts.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 17:26:12

I don’t know about you, but if homes where I live reverted back to 1996 levels, grown by inflation, I would be ecstatic and out shopping.

Based on Packman’s chart above, the inflation adjusted pricing in 1996 was approximately the same as 1900.

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 18:07:15

Rental Watch,

I was under the impression that you’ve been out shopping this entire time. I’m waaayyyy to lazy to click on any link to see any chart right now, but I’ve seen tons of graphs showing historical house prices in the Bay Area. The prices and rents started to go up when the software industry began to take over there. Then prices compared to rents started to get out of whack. During the 90’s blip, rents went down 20%, whereas house prices only went down like 12%. From this, we can infer that house prices were MORE OVERVALUED during the dot.com bust than before it, since the spread between the two widened by 8 basis points.

I believe that house prices will revert to the mean that existed BEFORE the software industry took off, due to the fact that a very large percentage of those jobs have been/are being given to people who either live in other countries, or live here temporarily on H1-B visas.

San Jose was once a farming town. Great farmland out there. Houses were cheap compared to incomes. If I had my druthers, I’d like to see a lot of the development out there routed and replaced with farms. If the land got cheap enough, that just might even happen.

I’m not counting on an agrarian revolution or anything, but I’m not counting on continued overpricedness either. I wouldn’t buy anything unless I could get for 100x rental income, with adjustments made for probable or actual repairs.

 
 
 
 
Comment by SFC
2010-08-23 10:23:08

The PBC property appraisers value isn’t meant to reflect what a given property would sell for. It’s a value to get to a tax amount. For my house it’s always been about 60% of actual value. It should move up and down to reflect actual values, but in a ratio not an actual dollar value.

 
 
Comment by Rancher
2010-08-23 06:37:36

We have a whacked out buyer here in town. In the last two weeks, someone bought over $9 million dollars worth of commercial properties, several that
are new and never occupied. Two on main street
sold for almost double their actual worth. Two of
my friends were the happy beneficiaries of this
glutton for punishment. No one can figure it out.

Comment by 2banana
2010-08-23 06:44:15

The last of the stimulus money being spread around???

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 06:57:38

Did the money originate from somewhere in the DC-Wall Street corridor?

Comment by Rancher
2010-08-23 07:06:44

No one knows. The buyer is using a real estate agent and an attorney as strawmen for the deals.
I’ll be calling them this morning to see if the guy
would like some nice river front property……

 
 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2010-08-23 12:04:20

China secretly ’snapping up’ RE before we switch to the amero and their dollars are worthless?

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 12:27:18

I have been reading articles recently about “sophisticated investors” who are “elbowing out” all us stupid little people. Elbow away, sophisticates. I will buy your building after you bleed to death.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 13:58:32

When you see stupid deals like this it’s one of 5 things:

1. Money laundering
2. Inside information on future development by the city
3. Tax shelter
4. Dumb foreign investment, with some combination of the above.
5. A just plain stupid deal. (rare, because that kind of money is usually managed by people who are making a living on managing it for someone else. There are course, exceptions)

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 06:59:01

Filed Under: “This could not ever happen in America…or…The US tax code is 20,000+ pages?…Mama Mia!” :-)

Tax Cheats as Sailboat Owners Become $13 Billion Italy Dragnet:
By Sonia Sirletti and Jeffrey Donovan / Aug. 23 (Bloomberg)

“The higher the tax burden, the higher the incentive to evade,” Carlo Alberto Carnevale-Maffe, a professor of business strategy at Milan’s Bocconi University, said in an interview. “So far, the risk of being caught has been negligible compared with the benefit for evaders.”

The raid was part of a summer crackdown at beaches, yacht clubs and discos from Venice to Sicily in a campaign to recoup 10 billion euros ($13 billion) in unpaid taxes this year. Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi’s government is hunting black economy revenue to tame its budget deficit and pare Europe’s biggest debt burden of 116 percent of gross domestic product.

Evasion is rampant in Italy…

“People are pretty upset here,” said Calabrese, a 58- year-old builder. “I’m not so concerned, as my accounts are in order, but it’s wrong to target yacht owners. If I buy a boat, I help the workers who made it, and help keep the economy going.”

The summer sting does have supporters. “It’s the right move,” said Pino Affer, owner of a so-called beach club in land-locked Milan’s Idroscalo, a recreational area with an artificial lake known as the Sea of Milan.

“Here at the poor people’s beach, there are no yachts, just little pedal boats and rowboats, so I don’t know if there will be any checks,”

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 07:25:19

It’s not quite that big. The Federal tax code, Title 26 US Code, fits comfortably into a single printed volume.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 08:29:24

Oh, you sly fox DennisN…cookin’ dinner and not tellin’ anyone ’bout the added secret spices,…like bat spit & the blind eye of a 3 eye’d swamp toad and such other delights…. ;-)

The Internal Revenue Code includes most but not all Federal tax statutes. Some tax statutes are found in other provisions of the United States Code including title 11 (related to bankruptcy) and title 28 (related to the judiciary). Further, some tax statutes are not codified at all (for example, the provisions of tax statutes that list the effective dates of Internal Revenue Code amendments).

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 09:02:26

Actually there’s a lot of tax-related stuff in the Labor code, Title 29 US Code. Anyone who has ever researched ERISA has gotten whiplash bouncing back and forth between Title 26 and Title 29.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 11:34:07

Eyes just pullin’ your froggy-legs DennisN, you deserve it after posting that wonderful dinner you was a makin’ the other night! ;-)

(All’s I know ’bout the “tax code” is that my older brother is a “Millionaire” on a’counts of those perplexin’, constitutionally enforced documents of divine clarity and astute renumeration that forthwith and without haste,… bring growin’ men (& Corporate CEO’s/ CFO’s) to there knees a wailin’ & cryin’ like the big babies that they are! Even though he’s a TruePatriot™” / Anti-Slavery / TrueIndustrialist™ / Anti-communist / Fiscal Conserative / Compassionate Conservative / TrueBeliever’s™ / TrueDeceiver’s ™ / TrueHypocrite™” / “TruePatriot™ / TruePurity™” I still find his “tales-of-woe” mighty entertaining, xspecially since I not “The Subject Of” nor on the receiving end of his merry amusements…) :-)

(Papa always said of Big Brother: “ifin’ he ever winds up with a job that requires Bafflin’ ‘em with B_llsh!t, he be might sucessful! 1st he tried stocks (failed), then taxes (very successful)…now he does both, …his the “Long-Term” perdiciment seems uncertain at times, xspecially these times!)

 
 
 
Comment by LehighValleyGuy
2010-08-23 14:40:15

It’s not quite that big. The Federal tax code, Title 26 US Code, fits comfortably into a single printed volume.

No, the tax code is a single TITLE, but Title 26 USC takes up two (1400+ page) volumes, and part of a third. And of course that’s just the law, then there are the regs, private letter rulings, IRS pubs, forms, court cases, treatises, and law review articles.

bookstore dot gpo dot gov/subjects/sb-197.jsp

This source says that the law and regs together are 16,845 pages:

www dot trygve dot com/taxcode.html

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 15:52:56

Last time I used a paper copy, which was admittedly back around 1996, the tax code (Title 26 US Code) was a single hardback volume. Has it really gotten that much bigger?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by TCM_guy
2010-08-23 12:18:02

Those Italianos have been practicing the fine art of tax evasion for a very long time. They used to laugh at us. The standing joke in Italia has been how the chumps Americans are so afraid of the taxman, and the IRS.

 
 
Comment by obamanator
2010-08-23 07:01:57

I dunno palmetto. I went through the sales in this development over the last year. Every one sold for 30-40%% higher than what the property appraiser says they are worth. Another house down the street sold a few months ago for 40% more than the property appraiser has it worth.

I don’t get it. I must be stupid to rent for about 60% the cost of owning? I still feel we are overvalued, because everyone keeps saying we have hit or are near the “bottom.”

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 07:05:37

Is anyone in the market for a zoo or a municipal airport? How about a parking meter operation? Now might offer the buying opportunity of a lifetime.

* POLITICS
* AUGUST 23, 2010

Facing Budget Gaps, Cities Sell Parking, Airports, Zoo

By IANTHE JEANNE DUGAN

Cities and states across the nation are selling and leasing everything from airports to zoos—a fire sale that could help plug budget holes now but worsen their financial woes over the long run.

California is looking to shed state office buildings. Milwaukee has proposed selling its water supply; in Chicago and New Haven, Conn., it’s parking meters. In Louisiana and Georgia, airports are up for grabs.

About 35 deals now are in the pipeline in the U.S., according to research by Royal Bank of Scotland’s RBS Global Banking & Markets. Those assets have a market value of about $45 billion—more than ten times the $4 billion or so two years ago, estimates Dana Levenson, head of infrastructure banking at RBS. Hundreds more deals are being considered, analysts say.

The deals illustrate the increasingly tight financial squeeze gripping communities. Many are using asset sales to balance budgets ravaged by declines in tax revenues and unfunded pensions. In recent congressional testimony, billionaire investor Warren Buffett said he worried about how municipalities will pay for public workers’ retirement and health benefits and suggested that the federal government may ultimately be compelled to bail out states.

“Privatization”—selling government-owned property to private corporations and other entities—has been popular for years in Europe, Canada and Australia, where government once owned big chunks of the economy.

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 07:19:25

suggested that the federal government may ultimately be compelled to bail out states.

Apparently Mr. Buffet doesn’t watch the news much. This has already been happening for over a year.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 07:34:02

billionaire investor Warren Buffett said he worried about… ;-)

1. How Berkshire might profit from such a debacle…
2. Whether he’ll live long enough to see that happen
3. The weather in Omaha today
4. Dairy Queens new food menu line-up
5.

Comment by butters
2010-08-23 08:31:13

I heard that he doesn’t even live in Omaha much. He has a palade in SoCal and he spends much of his time there.

Don’t listen to this welfare queen. The whole folksy, steak eating, wanting to pay more tax is nothing but a show.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 10:02:04

Hey now, someone in America,… had to replace E.F.Hutton! What?, you hoping it was going to be Kudlow & Cramer? ;-)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 14:02:01

“Privatization”—selling government-owned property to private corporations and other entities—has been popular for years in Europe, Canada and Australia, where government once owned big chunks of the economy.

It’s been same here for the last 30 years.

Nothing new here. Except that most people have no idea just how much of what was once government is now foreign owned.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 07:09:29

Philly requiring bloggers to pay $300 for a business license
~ Washington Examiner

It looks like cash hungry local governments are getting awfully rapacious these days:

Between her blog and infrequent contributions to ehow.com, over the last few years she says she’s made about $50. To [Marilyn] Bess, her website is a hobby. To the city of Philadelphia, it’s a potential moneymaker, and the city wants its cut.

In May, the city sent Bess a letter demanding that she pay $300, the price of a business privilege license.

“The real kick in the pants is that I don’t even have a full-time job, so for the city to tell me to pony up $300 for a business privilege license, pay wage tax, business privilege tax, net profits tax on a handful of money is outrageous,” Bess says.

It would be one thing if Bess’ website were, well, an actual business, or if the amount of money the city wanted didn’t outpace her earnings six-fold. Sure, the city has its rules; and yes, cash-strapped cities can’t very well ignore potential sources of income. But at the same time, there must be some room for discretion and common sense.

When Bess pressed her case to officials with the city’s now-closed tax amnesty program, she says, “I was told to hire an accountant.”

She’s not alone. After dutifully reporting even the smallest profits on their tax filings this year, a number — though no one knows exactly what that number is — of Philadelphia bloggers were dispatched letters informing them that they owe $300 for a privilege license, plus taxes on any profits they made.

Even if, as with Sean Barry, that profit is $11 over two years.

To say that these kinds of draconian measures are detrimental to the public discourse would be an understatement.

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 07:33:36

I wonder how much of a reward I could claim for turning Ben into the City of Flagstaff? :lol:

Comment by Cassandra
2010-08-23 14:10:24

Interesting question: In what taxing authority does a blog reside? What if a local resident hosts a blog offshore?

 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 07:57:02

Here in Tucson, a business license is only $45 a year.

As far as I can figure, my 45 bucks goes to the funding and mailing of a certificate that I have to display in my place of business. (It’s on my studio bulletin board.)

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 08:53:45

Friggin’ California Bar still wants $125 annual dues for “inactive” (i.e. retired) members. All this does is keep a placeholder for you if you should someday need to “unretire”. They even ditched the monthly printed newspaper and refer you to the on-line edition.

 
 
Comment by 2banana
2010-08-23 09:43:29

Philly - one of the most corrupt, pro-union, pro-big government, socialist and democrat cities in America.

Why is Bess complaining? She got what she wanted…

 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 14:06:24

And it’s like this all over the country.

See, it’s not so much the feds as it is your local government that is dead set on killing small businesses.

Want to guess why? (and it has NOTHING to do with political philosophies)

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 07:10:20

One of the phenomena of the last several decades years has been the rise of the individual investor Corporations using US Government tax dollars for salvation. :-)

In Striking Shift, Small Investors Flee Stocks:

“One of the phenomena of the last several decades has been the rise of the individual investor.

Small investors are “losing their appetite for risk,” a Credit Suisse analyst, Doug Cliggott, said in a report to investors on Friday.”

NYT / On Monday August 23, 2010

Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 14:08:11

Forcing everyone to play the markets was a very bad idea.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 07:22:23

My argument for why this is a terrible time to buy RE goes a few steps beyond that of the typical MSM financial journalist’s analysis:

1) Anyone who is paying attention right now knows that the U.S. residential RE market is on govt life support, and that the discussion in DC has shifted from how to reflate the housing market to how to (eventually) withdraw the massive level of federal government interference in the free market for housing which is primarily responsible for inflating the real estate bubble.

2) There is also an open acknowledgment that the housing market currently remains too weak for govt feeding tubes to be disconnected.

3) As the housing market eventually regains the strength to stand on its own two feet, the case for withdrawing govt life support will strengthen.

4) Eventual green shoots of residential REcovery will also encourage many would-be sellers who are currently holding homes off the market to finally try to sell.

5) The withdrawal of govt life support coupled with marketing of pent-up supply will put downward pressure on housing prices for “longer than expected.”

6) The current cohort of real estate flippers are likely to discover that they, too, caught themselves falling knives, which will lead to yet another rush for the exits right at the point when the housing market is supposed to be recovering along with the rest of the economy.

Many will eventually come to agree that, “Real estate is the worst investment.” We’re not there yet!

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 07:30:59

IMO you’re making a bad assumption that the government actually intends to extricate itself from the housing/mortgage market, soon or anytime. Personally I think the recent weak statements to that effect have been pure lip-service.

I do think that we’re in for another leg down - there’s still too much downward pressure even for the government to bear, in the short term. However long term I think the government will ensure that prices “recover” to propped-up levels (as we on the HBB consider them), and may indeed stay there indefinitely*.

All in the name of affordability, of course.

(* I would say “permanently high plateau”, but we all know where that goes. Eventually if you follow any plateau you’re going to run into ocean.)

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 07:41:48

“IMO you’re making a bad assumption that the government actually intends to extricate itself from the housing/mortgage market, soon or anytime.”

I don’t make that assumption; I am merely parroting what I have recently heard government leaders recently say.

If you look over my weekend posts, you will find one where I compare housing subsidies to ag subsidies. The bottom line is that the political will to create subsidies is far stronger than the will to eliminate them; hence they tend to never go away, despite the talk of the desirability of doing so (”The road to perdition is paved with good intentions”).

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 08:17:45

Personally I think the recent weak statements (that the government actually intends to extricate itself from the housing/mortgage market, soon or anytime) have been pure lip-service.

I agree and Bill Gross might agree too.

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 08:20:36

Bill Gross would certainly hope so!

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 09:43:19

Packman, if what you define as “propped-up” levels the 2006 highs, I think it will take 15-20 years to get there (if not way, way longer). I simply don’t see that as possible, regardless of government intervention.

If you define “propped-up” as today’s prices, then I think you are absolutely correct, and in fact, I think the result will be that prices end up even a bit higher than today, especially at the low end.

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 10:17:14

Yeah I was thinking today’s still-propped prices. We won’t see 2006 prices, in inflation-adjusted terms, in our lifetimes.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 10:46:36

Agree with your inflation adjusted. I was thinking nominal prices. 3% growth over 20 years would increase prices by 80% over today’s level.

 
Comment by packman
2010-08-23 11:22:21

Agree.

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 12:40:20

But how are we going to get inflation? Don’t you need wage inflation for that? I can see inflation in imported goods happening, but not inflation in house prices.

 
Comment by packman
2010-08-23 12:49:47

You’re assuming the ratio of house prices to wages reverts and remains at historical norms. I think they may revert for now, but eventually settle long-term at higher-than-historical norms.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 13:08:50

Big V, 20 years is a long time. With demographics as they are, there are going to be lots of workers retiring. Don’t underestimate the government’s ability to inflate their way out of the debt debacle.

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 13:58:17

How will workers retiring cause inflation? They will be on fixed incomes. And I have very little faith in the government’s ability to steer this economy at all. They’ve already pushed it too far, and it’s too big for them to control any longer. Combine that with the fact that we’ve sort of handed a chunk of ourselves to the rest of the world, and I don’t see our government in the driver’s seat on this one.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 14:10:40

Wages causing inflation is a myth used to keep wages down.

 
Comment by Rental Watch
2010-08-23 17:29:43

If you can’t have inflation without labor inflation, then more people demanding services and fewer people to provide them will give the scenario necessary to have wage inflation. Guess what, it’s not politically feasible to tax the retirees overtly to solve the entitlement debt to them, but you can inflate away the purchasing power of their benefits.

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 17:58:24

There will not be fewer people to provide services as long as we continue to import workers and offshore jobs. Wage inflation will occur when globalism loses ground.

 
 
 
 
Comment by obamanator
2010-08-23 07:38:55

I was taught early on that the time to buy r/e was when I/R are HIGH and prices are low, not when I/R are LOW and values high. Don’t these FB understand simple math and finance principles? A 1% rise will result in a 12-15% reduction in value.

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 07:56:44

“Don’t these FB understand simple math and finance principles?”

I know a rhetorical question when I see one. :-)

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 07:59:00

P.S. The tricky thing is that the upward movement in real estate prices was so great and protracted that few will estimate how massive and protracted the countervailing move to the down side will eventually turn out. This is why many folks will lose a great deal of money buying during the correction phase of history’s greatest real estate bubble.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-08-23 11:21:47

I just want to tune in a minute regarding the FORECLOSURE TSUNAMI. Here’s something I heard this weekend on the FSO radio show .
Let’s say the banks due a blanket type Deed in Lieu of Foreclosure, take the house back, and lease it back to the homeowner until the two years is up, and their credit heals. Then the bank sells it back to the homeowner at the new market price? What do you guys think? Is this feasible? The conversation was that this is floating around on “the hill”.

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 11:31:17

Nah, banks usually can’t do deeds in lieu because there are seconds on the mortgages. Besides, none of them are “working” with their deadbeat borrowers anymore. The days of fake workouts are gone. They really want the public to see that there’s a price to pay for defaulting, etc.

 
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-08-23 13:11:07

Big V
Good points! The thing is, the additional mortgages are getting very little $ anyway, and if the 1st and 2nd (or 3rd) is the same bank as that holds the 1st, why not? BTW, it’s nice to have you back where you belong. I hope you’re right, but never underestimate the mindset of the banking cartel. The volume of homes under water is huge.

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 14:01:30

I know. Sometimes I think most of these banks and GSEs are really just planning their exit. If you look at it that way, then some of their bizarre decision-making begins to make sense.

 
 
 
Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 08:55:45

Back in the early 1980’s, both interest rates AND home prices were sky high. This time period may color the views of certain age groups.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 09:57:15

This time period may color the views of certain age groups.

(Hwy (age 53) asks a rhetorical question: How many “homes” would sell in America today, 2010… if mortgage interest rates were 14+%?)

Run Hwy,…RUN! ;-)

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 10:26:54

How well would Dennis be living if CD interest rates were 10+%? :lol: That’s what they were back then. My grandma was pleased as punch.

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 10:34:56

How well would Dennis be living if CD interest rates were 10+%?

Buying extra pork chops, for the cats?

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 11:01:57

I remember those interest rates. In the late 70s and early 80s I was working in the US, moving regularly for work. I had a good salary for the time. I lived in shared housing - usually in the home of a mature student who needed help with their mortgage while they went back to school - and I didn’t have any furniture except a futon. (I did haul a lot of books around. Posters were my mobile decor.)

I stuck my savings in CDs. In 1981, I was getting 13%. Settled young families were paying 18% on mortgages.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 11:22:56

“I stuck my savings in CDs. In 1981, I was getting 13%. Settled young families were paying 18% on mortgages.”

The tricky part then (and maybe now — who knows?) was that between 1975-1981, holding on to cash and waiting for that opportunity to invest at 18% would have resulted in lots of lost real wealth due to inflation.

 
Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 11:23:26

Pork chops? Heck how about fresh Ahi tuna - hold the wasabi - for the kitties?

Nothing but the best for Condoleezza and Duke.

 
Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 18:28:23

Hip this is your fault….pork chops for dinner tonight. Bone-in sirloin chops are cheap - $1.38/lb here. Sauted in EV olive oil with garlic, a shredded onion, mushrooms, and my own garden zuchinni, then slow cooked with some dry Marsala with hints of paprika, cumin, and basil. When it’s done I’ll serve it over penne pasta with cheap sav. blanc. About the same cost as dinner at McDonalds.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 19:52:27

e. Sauted in EV olive oil with garlic, a shredded onion, mushrooms, and my own garden zuchinni, then slow cooked with some dry Marsala with hints of paprika, cumin, and basil. When it’s done I’ll serve it over penne pasta with

now ur pissin’ me offf……..

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 20:33:34

dinner tonight

Man, that sounds good !

 
 
 
Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 10:30:48

Let’s see…..1981 mortgage interest rates of 14%, that’s 9% more than they are now, multiply by minimum 12% reduction in property value……

So houses were FREE back then?

 
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-08-23 22:18:06

No this is never taught in HS or college….we should make financial math a required subject for graduation, then no one can ever say we were duped.

and Civics of course….

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 07:22:51

Housing Fades as a Means to Build Wealth, Analysts Say
nytimes August 23, 2010

Housing will eventually recover from its great swoon. But many real estate experts now believe that home ownership will never again yield rewards like those enjoyed in the second half of the 20th century, when houses not only provided shelter but also a plump nest egg.

The wealth generated by housing in those decades, particularly on the coasts, did more than assure the owners a comfortable retirement. It powered the economy, paying for the education of children and grandchildren, keeping the cruise ships and golf courses full and the restaurants humming.

More than likely, that era is gone for good.

“There is no iron law that real estate must appreciate,” said Stan Humphries, chief economist for the real estate site Zillow. “All those theories advanced during the boom about why housing is special — that more people are choosing to spend more on housing, that more people are moving to the coasts, that we were running out of usable land — didn’t hold up.”

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 07:37:16

This story - with a reprint link to MSDNC - got posted above.

Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 11:20:02

MSDNC is correct.

 
 
Comment by butters
2010-08-23 08:07:34

Can’t believe it took them this long to come to this obvious conclusion.

Or, is it that NyTimes finally decided not to be a shill for WallStreet and DNC anymore?

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 12:44:18

Unicorns fade as a means to obtain sparkle-flavored Skittles.

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 07:25:50

Gold! Gold! Gold!
Wheat! Wheat! Wheat!
Bonds! Bonds! Bonds!
Coffee! Coffee! Coffee!
Buy! Buy! Buy!
Flee! Flee! Flee!

(Hwy notes: “These f@!king Guys!,” Jon Stewart. …are still walking around private Islands with sand between their toes, thinking ’bout what this Dec will bring…)

Tropical “Fruit-cake” Storms: ;-)

“Coffee surged as tropical storm Frank was moving off the southern coast of Mexico and may become a hurricane today, the U.S. National Hurricane Center in Miami said yesterday. A tropical storm formed over the South China Sea was on a path toward Vietnam, according to the U.S. Navy Joint Typhoon Warning Center. Mexico will tie with India as fifth-largest coffee producer in the season starting Oct. 1, and Vietnam will be the largest after Brazil, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture.”

By Stephen Kirkland and Nikolaj Gammeltoft / Aug. 23 (Bloomberg)

Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 14:31:52

What? I just checked all the weather sites and there is no “Frank.”

Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 14:34:24

How bizarre! Yet it’s still reported in the news! But not on the TWC, or Storm Pulse or Skeetobiteweather.

?????

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 07:36:51

Has the U.S. housing market bottomed out yet? I think not.

Why?

1) No sign of market capitulation;

2) No stories of flippers getting badly burned;

3) No common agreement yet that “Real estate is the worst investment”;

4) No evidence yet that anyone who admits they are planning to buy a home is generally considered to be a fool;

5) No sign in sight that government life support will soon be withdrawn from the housing market, despite growing signs that the folly of federal housing subsidies is gaining recognition;

6) No hint yet that interest rates will some day increase back towards historically typical levels;

7) No recovery yet in home sales;

8 ) No recovery in the labor market;

9) No recovery in new home construction;

10) No suggestion that seller expectations and buyer willingness-and-ability to pay are in agreement;

11) Whisper word in the MSM that between 6-8 million American mortgages are in default, with no clear indication how the situation will be resolved;

12) No hint yet about how the extraordinarily high number of vacant U.S. housing units will be absorbed by people who just need a place to live.

Besides these factors, and perhaps a few other ones that don’t come as readily to mind, it seems like the U.S. housing market recovery is in the bag.

Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 10:26:45

These are just facts, they mean nothing.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 11:44:24

it seems like the U.S. housing market recovery is in the bag.

(Cantankerous, lights a match, sets bag on fire, rings the door bell, runs across the street to watch, …gleefully!) ;-)

5 minutes later calls neighbor: “Hey, is your refrigerator running?”

Calls again 5 minutes later: “Hey, you got Prince Phillip in a can?”

 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 14:37:13

It was 4 years to the bottom in the S&L disaster with another 2 year plateau after that.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 07:47:24

* AHEAD OF THE TAPE
* AUGUST 23, 2010

The Housing-Market Diagnosis: Still Weak
By DAVID REILLY

Talk of mortgage-market overhaul has started percolating in Washington. But housing numbers this week are likely to reinforce the notion that the market still is far too weak for radical surgery.

Existing-home sales for July, due Tuesday, are expected to come in at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 4.63 million, which would mark a nearly 10% decline compared with a year earlier and the first time since June 2009 that the rate has fallen back below 5 million units.

Credit Suisse economists believe the figures could reach their lowest level since at least 1999. New-home sales figures due Wednesday, meanwhile, are expected to stay flat with the previous month, at a near-record low of about 330,000 units.

Such downbeat numbers would show that the housing market is still struggling to shake off the hangover that followed April’s expiration of the government’s home-buyers tax credit.

In fact, the existing-home-sales figures still may be benefiting from it, as sales agreed to by April have until September to close to qualify.

The fragility of housing markets is especially notable given that prices in many areas have plunged, bringing affordability rates to their best levels in at least 20 years. At the same time, Freddie Mac said Thursday that average rates for a 30-year, fixed-rate mortgage fell to 4.42%, the ninth consecutive week of declines and the lowest rate since it began keeping a tally in 1971.

For all that, buyers still are thin on the ground. Mortgage-purchase applications have declined sharply since the end of April. The steady stream of foreclosures is keeping inventory elevated. And with economic growth weakening, doubts about private-sector employment growth intensifying and consumer confidence declining, prospects for the housing market during the autumn selling season aren’t great.

Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 10:38:33

What if Congress gave a homeless, illegal immigrant a credit card with no spending limit and Fannie and Freddie sold all of their bad debt to this man and he put it all on his card?

Wouldn’t the problem just go away?

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 07:51:26

There has truly never been a better time for diversification!

The Wall Street Journal
* HEARD ON THE STREET
* AUGUST 22, 2010, 8:44 P.M. ET

Government Clouds Value of Investments

From Ecclesiastes to Bernanke

By PETER EAVIS

What is anything worth?

That might sound like an utterance from the book of Ecclesiastes or the title of a freshman philosophy paper. But it is a valid question for any investor right now. Gauging the true worth of stocks, bonds and real estate is extremely difficult at a time when their prices are so heavily influenced by the actions, or perceived inaction, of governments and central banks.

The dilemma crops up everywhere. Last week, Sears Holdings shares plunged on disappointing second-quarter earnings. “Appliance stimulus,” or state rebate programs aimed at spurring sales of energy-conserving fridges and washing machines, didn’t provide the expected boost to Sears’s sales, according to some analysts.

On a far bigger scale, take the 10-year Treasury note, a cornerstone for pricing so many other securities. While the Fed’s monetary-policy stance has always had an impact on government bonds, its moves have much more sway when the economy’s future hinges on monetary stimulus. Just over a month ago, Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke said the economic outlook was “unusually uncertain.” Since then, the 10-year note has rallied. The drumbeat is growing louder for the Fed to balloon its balance sheet further by purchasing more assets. But that would only increase its presence in important asset markets, further distorting them.

Of course, there is supposed to be a happy ending. The fiscal and monetary stimulus is meant to bring the private economy to the point where it is self-sustaining. But it is just as likely that the government remains entrenched. Government entities will likely back some 90% of new mortgages for the foreseeable future. And if, miraculously, that backing returned to precrisis levels, it would still be huge. From 1990 to 2006, 54% of all new mortgages had effective taxpayer guarantees, according to data from Inside Mortgage Finance.

Some will take comfort from the fact that it would have been a good bet to buy shares in 2002, when there was huge doubt about the economy and loud calls for the Fed to do more. The S&P 500 rose 67% from the end of 2002 to the end of 2007.

The problem is, anyone unlucky enough to buy the S&P 500 at the end of 2003 would be down today. That underlines the fact that timing is everything. And even more so in markets beholden to aggressive government action. Today’s winners will arguably be those who correctly guess the Fed’s appetite for shock and awe.

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde: Right now, investors know the price of everything but the value of nothing.

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 07:58:01

So in summary:

PTB = Author of Confusion

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 08:02:02

Once everyone’s perception that everything is going down is reinforced by rationally consistent downward asset price moves, the self-fulfilling prophecy effect precipitates a “worse-than expected” crash.

The self-reinforcing nature of asset price crashes is what the confusion sowed by the PTB seeks to avoid.

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 08:09:09

So basically - it’s all about confidence?

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 08:13:42

Yes — CONfidence.

 
 
 
Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 08:26:20

What’s “PTB”? Professor Teddy Bear? ;)

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 08:33:09

LOL - not hardly. Prof is influential around these parts, but his views are generally counter (unfortunately*) to the real PTB, which is “Powers That Be”.

(or sometimes I like to use PBT - Powers Behind the Throne)

*Not that I’d want Prof’s views to change of course, but would prefer vice versa.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 09:37:12

:-)

PTB = “Previously Them Bones”

ptB = “part-time Bailout”

ptb = “people to blame”

pTB = “profits Time-Bomb”

PTb = “Plimpton’s Tufu bakery”

PtB = “Powers too Bellicose”

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 12:49:00

I once used the term “PTB” at work. The guy I said it to acted like I was an insufferable bugar for using an acronym he didn’t understand. I explained what it meant to his cold shoulder. A few days later, I got cc’d on an e-mail where his shoulder had apparently used the very same acronym.

Just a little personal story. For kicks.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by packman
2010-08-23 08:04:37

Interesting divergence last week between treasuries and mortgage. Both had been plummeting (yields) in tandem over the last few weeks. However after bottoming at 4.44%, the 30-year mortgage rate bounds back up some and settled last week at about 4.52%, whereas treasuries continued plummeting into Friday.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-08-23 10:56:30

Yes, very strange indeed, packman.

Frankly, fact that the yields have not converged much MORE is a bit of a puzzler for me. After all, once the FedGov stepped in and made the guarantee of Freddie/Fannie explicit rather than implicit, shouldn’t the yields converge to be essentially the same, considering that the underlying risk is then essentially the same as the govt bonds of equivalent duration?

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 11:44:44

Actually they very much did converge a lot after the F/F takeoever and Fed MBS purchases started. And while the F/F takever hasn’t been reversed - the Fed MBS purchases did stop a few months ago, with no subsequent divergence in the rates (back to historical norms) happening. I’m sure this is indeed due to the continued F/F conservatorship. Going forward it’ll be really interesting to see what happens on this spread after the housing summit.

In absolute yield terms though it’s not that simple I’m sure. Thought the retail rates (treasuries and mortgage rates) are still apart by .4% or so, the actual rate received by MBS holders (non-retail) may be a bit higher than the actual mortgage rate - I’m not sure.

Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-08-23 16:37:30

Yeah, I agree that there was some convergence, but it was difficult to know how much to attribute to the Fed’s buying spree, and how much to attribute to the change from implicit to explicit backing.

Still the fact that there is any remaining divergence is interesting to me, since the effective risk is now essentially the same; they should be close proxies for each other.

BTW, I find the 10-year Treasury vs the mortgage rates to be the more interesting curve. Mortgage rates tend to track closure to the 10-year T’s, since most 30-year mortgages are paid off much sooner than 30 years.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by obamanator
2010-08-23 08:11:35

http://kpbj.com/business_weekly/2010-08-23/homeowner_confidence_in_real_estate_market_dips

More Kool-Aid anyone?

“Homeowners are more pessimistic about the short-term future of home values in their local market than they have been in the past three quarters, according to the Zillow second quarter Homeowner Confidence Survey. One-third (33 percent) believe home values in their local housing market have not yet reached a bottom, while 38 percent believe they have already reached a bottom.”

And what happens IF we see the market turn up? A WAVE of sellers.

“Despite the increasing pessimism, a large number of homeowners anxiously await the opportunity to sell. Five percent of U.S. homeowners say they are very likely to put their home on the market in the next six months if they see signs of a real estate market turnaround. This translates into 3.8 million homes with the potential to come into the market. By comparison, 5.2 million existing homes were sold in all of 2009.”

Plenty of Kool-Aid drinkers left. We have a ways to go before any bottom is made.

“Looking further into the future, the majority of homeowners believe their own homes’ values will either increase (27 percent) or stay the same (35 percent) in the next 12 months, while 12 percent expect a decrease and 26 percent don’t know.”

 
Comment by packman
2010-08-23 08:12:44

Anyone else catch the fact that Greek 2-year bonds are creeping back up, with a new recent high? Currently at 11.09% - highest level since before the ECB bailout.

chart

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 08:34:54

Also - not sure if this was discussed or not - Slovakia says NO to Greek bailout. Go Slovakia!

Comment by alpha-sloth
2010-08-23 11:10:00

the link goes to an NC State sport site

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 11:23:52

Oops - that was the link to a forum discussing the article.

Here’s the correct link to the article itself.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by alpha-sloth
2010-08-23 12:15:40

Slovaks want to cancel another Czeck?

 
 
 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 08:19:24

This is the shoeshine boy moment for the long-term bond bubble. Don’t tell me later I didn’t warn you!

* THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
* CREDIT MARKETS
* AUGUST 23, 2010

Bankers Pitch 100-Year Bonds
By KATY BURNE

THE CENTURY CLUB: Norfolk Southern, Motorloa and FedEx have all issued 100-year debt in the past.

Bond investors are buying almost anything the market throws at them. Now some bankers want to put those appetites to a full test. They have begun sounding out investors about 100-year bonds.

Such long-term bonds are considered some of the most exotic available because they are issued only by the strongest companies—those that are expected to be around a century from now.

Hundred-year bonds were in vogue in the mid 1990s and early 2000s, when a few dozen companies issued them. Most were bought in 1993, 1996 and 1997.

But they remained relatively rare because companies have to pay a premium over 30-year bonds, typically the longest-dated asset.

With interest rates now at some of their lowest levels in history, some companies are tempted to press for longer-dated paper, knowing that demand for corporate bonds is outstripping supply.

Such bonds won’t pay off their principal until 2110, a date so far that the people doing today’s buying and selling will all be dead.

The risk is that over the next century, interest rates will rise to a level that diminishes the value of the century bond. Given the vagaries of any market over 100 years, that is a near certainty.

That is why some are skeptical there will be sufficient appetite to get a new century deal done.

“I think it would be a challenge,” said Mark Oline, head of U.S. corporate finance at Fitch Ratings. “Given the volatility in world markets, the credit risk of a 100-year bond combined with the expectation that at some point interest rates will rise will probably make buyers shy away from a 100-year security,” he said.

Still, that isn’t stopping some bankers from pressing their case.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 09:16:58

Still, that isn’t stopping some bankers from pressing their case.

It’s turned into a horse Match Race a la Seabiscuit & War Admiral: ;-)

…and into the final turn they go:

“…and it’s “Hwy’s motto for 2010: “Keep Americans safe…protect CORPORATIONS!” on the inside…but wait, moving up on the outside turn it’s…“These f@!king Guys!,” Jon Stewart. …being takin’ early to the whip…

 
Comment by FB wants a do over
2010-08-23 10:39:30

What’s to prevent a future CEO from running the company into the ground and taking a quick spin through bankruptcy lane.

I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday (100 years from now) for a hamburger today.

 
Comment by polly
2010-08-23 12:59:35

We used to talk about 100 year bonds when I was a baby tax lawyer in NYC. General conslusion of us juniors was that they should really be considered preferred equity with the interest treated as dividends and not deductible. At least that is what I recall. We were overruled by the partners, of course, and created the paperwork that we were told to create, but that is the way of the big law firm. And the partners were the onese who signed ‘em and took on the risk.

 
 
Comment by REhobbyist
2010-08-23 08:19:25

I’m enjoying a few good days between chemotherapy treatments. Last night I really enjoyed reading the 8/22 bits thread. Lots of interesting stuff: aspects of the Treasuries bubble, Eddie’s idea that going to any but a top 50 college is a waste of time, and Mikey’s big to buy a big short sale house for 55/sq ft in Wisconsin. It was a good day on the HBB, other than the angry young person from CO who gets depressed by too much good weather and hates boomers (I’m just being sensitive, I guess ;-) .)

I’m having fewer good days as the treatment progresses. I can’t see patients because I’m immune suppressed, and I tried to do some surgeries, but I’m too weak now. So keep up the excellent blogging, HBBers!

Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 08:43:59

Get well soon, REhobbyist!

 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2010-08-23 08:49:16

REHobbyist,

I wish you all the best. What type of cancer do you have?

 
Comment by polly
2010-08-23 09:05:55

Take good care of yourself hobbiest. Lots of good wishes headed your way.

 
Comment by butters
2010-08-23 09:27:17

Sorry to hear that.

Best of luck and wishing you a speedy recovery.

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 10:23:29

Take care, RE.

I hope Mikey will have lots more stories of his RE adventure. Laughter is healing for all of us!

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 10:48:41

Mikey! :-) Mikey, you’re a cheese-head! (I just betcha you’re a cheese-head…how do ya likey that Pabst Blue Ribbon guzzlin’ Viking Lorenzo Farvey now Mikey! hahahah)

 
 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 10:53:22

Dang it REhobbyist,…this blog is shapin’ up to be a rather…$%#^%$@! extended family!

My sincerest hopes for your quick recovery to health & well being!

 
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-08-23 10:53:52

Yikes!

Very sorry to hear about the chemo, REhobbyist. Somehow I had missed that news.

I hope that the cancer is one of the more treatable varieties, and that you turn the corner to better health soon! :-/

Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-08-23 11:04:57

REHobbyist
Ditto to what Prime just said. Get Well!

Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 13:06:34

Ditto to what Prime just said. Get Well!

My feelings too REH.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Kim
2010-08-23 13:37:19

Add my get well wishes too. I hope you have a speedy recovery.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 11:29:19

I hope you pull out of it REHobbyist.

 
Comment by flightime
2010-08-23 18:30:35

Keep looking for the positive..I went thru hell after finding this site
in 05 but a good attitude will pull you through.
Good double medical insurance helped also.
And the brains of Ben and love of Olygal

 
Comment by jane
2010-08-23 19:10:46

REH, please accept my best wishes for speedy recovery, with the love of family and friends surrounding you as you heal.

 
Comment by Housing Wizard
2010-08-23 21:21:59

RELobbyist ….I just saw this post about you having treatment for cancer . Best to you .

Comment by ahansen
2010-08-23 23:57:47

RE,

This is your second round, isn’t it? Hang in there hon, and git yourself a chit for a few spliffs of the kind to help alleviate some of the side effects. If you’d like to write, I’m at dvsntt here at bnis dot net and I’d love to hear from you, gal!

Hugz,
a

 
 
 
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2010-08-23 08:35:32

Union members are thugs.

Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2010-08-23 08:50:37

Banks and corporations are scum.

Now doesn’t that feel better.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 09:14:17

Union members are thugs.

That’s totally cool Bill! You’ve come a long way since “ALL Union members are thugs.”

 
Comment by butters
2010-08-23 09:28:23

Union bosses are thugs. Members are like FB’s.

 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 12:51:42

Carolinans are weird.

 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 16:55:04

Remind me again who just bankrupted our country?

I seem to recall something about Wall St.?

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 08:43:52

Home sales collapse in the Triangle Area in North Carolina.

After several months of being buoyed by government tax credits, the Triangle housing market slumped badly in July as many buyers appeared to stop looking.

There were 1,366 homes sold during July in Durham, Johnston, Orange and Wake counties, down 33 percent from the same month a year ago, Triangle Multiple Listing Services data show.

Pending sales slumped 32 percent, and showings were down 23 percent. The market also saw a rise in the number of existing homes on the market. Listings in July were 20 percent higher than the same period last year and are now at their highest level in four years.
Quantcast

One of the few bright spots was the average sales price in July, which was $252,174, or 6 percent higher than last year.

Although most real estate professionals expected the July numbers to be down, they were still sobering.

“It’s what we were hoping we wouldn’t see after those tax credits expired,” said Ross Rhudy, general manager of Real Living Pittman Properties in Raleigh. “I think we’ll go up from here, but it’s going to be a very, very slow recovery.”

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 09:50:32

One of the few bright spots was the average sales price in July, which was $252,174, or 6 percent higher than last year.

Bugs: “eh, Hey Doc, let’s look at them important details, shall we…”

Daffy: “Yeah Bugsy, hit ‘em over the head with the only facts they’ll understand & respect ya with, you get ‘em… you whacked wabbit!” ;-)

National Bank Of Kansas City / 4.625% Interest rate / 4.647% / APR

Monthly payment: $1,037

Lender fees: $515
0 points

Lender & loan details:
Low rates and fees on refinances. VA & FHA Licensed in all 50 states

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 08:46:56

Global Deficits Will Create $4.5 Trillion in New Debt: Hedge Fund Manager. ~ CNBC

How much additional soverign debt does the world have to issue this year, just to make up the massive, growing budget deficits?

“You have to think about the world and its totality. There is a finite amount of capital, so just to plug fiscal deficits the world has to issue $4.5 trillion worth of new debt—that assumes the existing debt stock rolls,” Kyle Bass, managing partner of Hayman Capital, told CNBC’s The Strategy Session on Tuesday, adding, “but where does this $4.5 trillion worth of new debt come from?”

“U.S. banks’ securities portfolios have increased 26 percent year over year, all they are doing is buying Treasury Bonds. The Fed doesn’t want that to happen—they want the yield curve to flatten and the banks to go lend,” Bass said.

 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 08:52:15

Refinancing boom no blast for Mass. banks
Boston Business Journal

Homeowners are on a refi high.

But don’t expect bankers and investors in mortgage-backed bonds to join the euphoria over record-low interest rates.

Believe it or not, there is a gloomy dimension to seeing the interest rate on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage fall below 4.5 percent.

For one, banks aren’t happy about seeing mortgages already at rock-bottom rates being paid off early and then refinanced at even lower rates.

“Refinance is a terrible thing for banks,” said Gerald Mulligan, chief executive of North Andover-based River Bank. “It’s giving us cash to reinvest and we don’t want that because there’s no place to put it.”

Of course, there’s a place to put the money from a mortgage payoff, but banks are not thrilled about the options. For Mulligan, he would ideally reinvest the money in a commercial loan, but demand is weak in the current economy. Another route to consider is investing the money in mortgage-backed bonds, but the yield on those securities continues to fall because of, you guessed it, falling mortgage rates. To make matters worse, bank customers, especially ones with large sums in money market accounts, are hunting for better rates, forcing banks to pay more on those deposits.

“Everybody is looking for a little extra,” Mulligan said.

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 10:35:14

“Everybody is looking for a little extra,” Mulligan said.

This article is from Boston? This is about Banks?

(Hardy Har Har the Hyena) Rewrite: ;-)

“Everybody is looking for a little extra Mulligan” he said.

 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2010-08-23 08:53:08

ahansen,

Thank you for the kind words. Glad to see you posting.

Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 09:08:36

Well, ahansen, long time no post! Welcome back to the HBB!

Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 09:43:34

nice to hear your voice again, allena

Comment by ahansen
2010-08-24 00:00:15

Sidling my way back in here as I recover…. Maybe something of substance coming out of my stagnant mind soon. Thanks, ladies.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by measton
2010-08-23 08:57:16

Renewed economic uncertainty is testing Americans’ generation-long love affair with the stock market.

Investors withdrew a staggering $33.12 billion from domestic stock market mutual funds in the first seven months of this year, according to the Investment Company Institute, the mutual fund industry trade group. Now many are choosing investments they deem safer, like bonds.

If that pace continues, more money will be pulled out of these mutual funds in 2010 than in any year since the 1980s, with the exception of 2008, when the global financial crisis peaked.

Small investors are “losing their appetite for risk,” a Credit Suisse analyst, Doug Cliggott, said in a report to investors on Friday.

Or maybe the small investor sees what’s really happening on the street. Or understands that stocks do not move on fundamentals but on the whims of the banking cartel and large computers.

Comment by FB wants a do over
2010-08-23 10:10:37

Pick your poison

Leave your money in the stock market / bonds and let the financial institutions have at it or take it out of the market and wait for the government to steal it through inflation.

We all know inflation is coming. The question is when?

Comment by measton
2010-08-23 10:15:40

I’m not so sure that stocks are going to be a great inflation hedge. This time inflation is not wage inflation and people have no savings. If they get inflation going it will mean a drastic cut back in things that arent’ absolutely needed.

Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 12:54:32

If they get inflation going, then it will only be inflation of the price of imported goods, thereby leading to de-facto protectionist behavior, thereby leading to wage inflation. This will be a long, slow process, but I personally don’t think that “they” are in any position to get inflation going anyway.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by WT Economist
2010-08-23 12:57:53

I’m still waiting for a better idea than 3 month treasuries at 0 percent interest.

My risk is that the government will put in place mandatory rollovers if inflation and interest rates spike, and not allow the proceeds to be re-invested at higher rates.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Prime_Is_Contained
2010-08-23 16:30:08

“I’m still waiting for a better idea than 3 month treasuries at 0 percent interest.”

+1. Although I extended duration on some out to 2-3yrs, thinking that I could either enjoy the slight dab of return if this thing drags out a few more years before buying opportuntities arise (likely, IMHO), or I could sell on the next panic to capture a little higher return…

 
 
 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 16:58:43

Small investors and especially individuals with a net worth of less than 500k, have no business being in the trading markets in the first place unless they really are as smart as they think they are. (they aren’t)

But since banks no longer offer a return on savings, what choices are there?

 
 
Comment by SanFranciscoBayAreaGal
2010-08-23 08:57:40

cougar91 and awaiting wipeout,

Thank you for your kind words posted yesterday.

 
Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 09:41:51

SFBayGal,

My condolences for the loss of your mom. I am glad for you that she was able to be in hospice and to be with you and family. We all die and she was able to do it surrounded by the people she loved - that sounds like a good way to go.

I am happy to see you back again while so sorry for your loss.

Comment by palmetto
2010-08-23 09:56:15

Second that.

Comment by Housing Wizard
2010-08-23 12:27:12

Third that . SFBayGal ……You asked me if I was doing OK on a post
three or more days ago and I didn’t see it until later . I’m doing fine and I hope you are also . I have a good friend who just told me he
only has a short time to live because of cancer that has spread everywhere . My friend told me in essence that he was ready to go .
I guess my friend doesn’t want chem-o or any other attempts to
prolong his life at this point . What do you say when someone tells
you something like this ? I said a few things and I hope it was the right thing to say .

Take care SFBayG

 
 
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
Comment by 2banana
2010-08-23 10:34:25

Wow - so MANY great quotes in one article…

Nothing good happens at Vista Sierra Apartments.

Nobody lives here any more, unless you count the squatters who move in at night

“It is starting to look like a ghetto piece of property,”

It’s also taxpayer subsidized, and most likely, you and I will pay for its cleanup

The intent was to buy buildings as a way to preserve affordable housing

 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 17:01:50

“Looking like a ghetto…?”

It IS a ghetto.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 10:00:37

Soaring Teen Unemployment Could Have Lifetime Effects
LiveScience.com ~ Aug 22

The summer job used to be a staple of teenage life. Paper routes and ice cream parlors provided work experience, paychecks, and a psychological boost in the form of independence and self-esteem.

The worst recession since the Great Depression has changed all that.

Today, teenage unemployment is at an all-time high, hitting 26.1 percent in July. According to economists at Northeastern University, 4 million fewer teens are working today than would have if employment was at 2000 levels. Meanwhile, family financial stress hits teens, too. It’s a combination that could have long-term effects on both their earning power and their mental health.

“Whenever there is fear and uncertainty and doubt, you’re going to get a fair amount of anxiety about oneself, one’s future and one’s options for the future,” said Laura Kastner, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Washington in Seattle and author of several books on parenting teens and young adults. “Anything that disempowers you in your expectations and attitudes about the future is not necessarily going to put you on the best path.”

Comment by WT Economist
2010-08-23 10:33:47

Teens are fine with anything their peers are doing. If the peers are employed and your kid can’t get a job, that’s when to start worrying.

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 10:35:39

“Whenever there is fear and uncertainty and doubt, you’re going to get a fair amount of anxiety about oneself, one’s future and one’s options for the future,” said Laura Kastner, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Washington in Seattle and author of several books on parenting teens and young adults. “Anything that disempowers you in your expectations and attitudes about the future is not necessarily going to put you on the best path.

Huh?

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 10:45:44

a professor of psychiatry

You could have just read that part and saved yourself the trouble of reading the rest.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2010-08-23 14:30:05

Disempowered in my expectations and attitudes about the future, I-
I took the not necessarily best path
And that has made all the
Difference

 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 17:09:05

Pyshcobabble aside, I was just out of my teens during the early to mid 1980s recession. You couldn’t get a job as a dishwasher. My last decent job was in 1983 and I couldn’t get another one until 1989.

The results put me behind a whole decade and I would say I’ve NEVER caught up because of it. Well that and the next 4 recessions as well. because that’s where the real “gotcha” is. If you can’t live through the next recession and the next and the next, you’re screwed. So if you don’t make some money early in life, your chances are zip.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 10:42:23

No bubble here…

Bond Funds Attracting Cash Like Stocks During Dot-Com Boom: Credit Markets
By John Glover and John Detrixhe - Aug 23, 2010 9:17 AM PT

The amount of money flowing into bond funds is poised to exceed the cash that went into stock funds during the Internet bubble, stoking concern fixed-income markets are headed for a fall.

Investors poured $480.2 billion into mutual funds that focus on debt in the two years ending June, compared with the $496.9 billion received by equity funds from 1999 to 2000, according to data compiled by Bloomberg and the Washington-based Investment Company Institute.

Concern the global economic recovery is faltering, with the U.S. growing at a slower-than-forecast 2.4 percent pace in the second quarter, is prompting investors to pile into fixed-income securities of all types even with some yields at record lows. The new cash has helped fuel a rally and drove yields on investment-grade U.S. corporate debt down to a record 3.79 percent last week, while two-year U.S. Treasury yields fell to an all-time low of less than 0.5 percent.

The money flowing into bonds is “probably not repeatable on a consistent basis,” said Joel Levington, managing director of corporate credit in New York at Brookfield Investment Management Inc., which oversees $24 billion. “Eventually it won’t be sustainable. Whether that means five years from now or five weeks is a little difficult to tell,” he said.

Comment by cactus
2010-08-23 13:37:37

so when the stock market crashes this fall we sell bonds and buy stocks

but how many bubbles were ever forecast on the MSM? when they say “its different this time buy 100 year bonds” then its a bubble

Comment by Carl Morris
2010-08-23 13:43:36

so when the stock market crashes this fall we sell bonds and buy stocks

Worst case is that there’s no good window to get out of one and into the other and you take the loss like everybody else, unless you’re in cash. I stayed away from money markets through 08 because I thought there would be issues due to bank failures. If I’d have known that the banks would get bailed out I’d have probably just done that instead of treasuries. I still can’t decide which is safer.

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 19:50:26

A big part of financial management gambling these days is guessing correctly what will get bailed out and what will get thrown under the bus.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 11:00:10

Do it yourself? Not likely if you’re under 35. More than half are DIY dunces who can’t even rewire a plug and have to rely on parents

Daily Mail Reporter 23rd August 2010

More than half of young people lack the skills they need to maintain their homes, with many relying on their parents to carry out basic tasks, a survey suggested today.

Around 50 per cent of people aged under 35 admitted they did not know how to rewire a plug, while 54 per cent did not know how to bleed a radiator and 63 per cent said they would not attempt to put up wallpaper, according to Halifax Home Insurance.

DON’T do it yourself: Young people under 35 are more likely to call in a professional when it comes to doing jobs around the house. Over half don’t even know how to bleed a radiator

Other basic jobs, such as putting up shelves, were beyond 45 per cent of those questioned, while 36 per cent said they would not even attempt to do gardening themselves.

Instead 42 per cent would pay a professional to do the work.

Nearly two-thirds of young people admitted that their father was far better at DIY than they were.

The study also found that when the under 35s do attempt to do a job themselves and it goes wrong, it costs nearly three times as much to fix as problems caused by other age groups.

Don’t try this at home: Under 35s spend on average £2,498 to fix botched DIY jobs

Martyn Foulds, senior claims manager for Halifax Home Insurance, said: ‘This survey strongly suggests that younger people feel they don’t have the experience or knowledge necessary to tackle even the most basic of home maintenance and DIY tasks.

‘This indicates a significant number of younger householders could be storing up problems for the future, as the lack of home maintenance starts to take its toll on their homes.’

Comment by DennisN
2010-08-23 12:05:52

According to ex-pat Brit and present NRO contributor John Derbyshire, household appliances bought in the UK don’t have a plug atached at the end of the power cord. The purchaser is expected to wire one up themselves.

Derb was bemoaning his dad’s lack of handy-ness and how he had to quitely re-do the plug wiring after his dad had left for work.

Comment by warlock
2010-08-23 18:50:25

This used to be the case, they quietly fixed the law a few years ago.

The reason it was illegal to sell an appliance with a plug, was lobbying by plug manufacturers back in the day to preserve their market (i kid thee not). In the subsequent decades all of the remaining plug manufacturers had either closed down or been taken over by the big electrical companies, and imports from the mainland with plugs attached, were starting to embarrass everyone.

 
 
Comment by Big V
2010-08-23 12:59:27

Did they do a similar questionnaire for old people? And how many people questioned were women, who would not be generally expected to do that type of work?

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 13:10:06

Do it yourself? Not likely if you’re under 35. More than half are DIY dunces who can’t even rewire a plug and have to rely on parents

Hey? Opportunity knocks?

Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 17:13:14

The handyman business is overrated.

WAY, overrated. Very few make good money at it. And those who do usually work for businesses, and not individuals, who are far too cheap and demanding.

 
 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2010-08-23 14:39:09

No one should be putting up wallpaper anyway.

 
Comment by Anonymous Coward
2010-08-23 17:12:17

I’m under 35 and I don’t know how to bleed a radiator. And under no circumstances would I ever put up wallpaper. So by that study I guess I’m not much of a DIY-er. OTOH, I have re-piped my house and remodeled two bathrooms (down to the studs, moving a wall between them and moving/replacing every fixture within each). The only things I didn’t do on my own was mud and tape the second bathroom and I hired a plumber who taught me how to do the plumbing. And of course, I’ve re-done the lighting in the kitchen and added a few receptacles to the kitchen as well.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 11:06:27

Foreclosure Study Shows Dramatic Value Drop
August 23, 2010

Nationwide, more than a half million homes fell into foreclosure in the first half of 2010.
More than 900,000 were repossessed in 2009.

Now a new study, conducted by MIT and Harvard researchers, reveals the drop in value to a foreclosed property is even more staggering than many would believe.

“Foreclosed homes sell for less, not just a little bit less, but much less than comparable homes sold in the same area at the same time but voluntarily outside the foreclosure process,” explains Harvard Professor of Economics John Campbell. “In fact, the discount on average is about 27% which is really a very large number.”

And a foreclosure is bad news for the neighborhood…

The study-which examined 1.8 million home sales in Massachusetts from 1987 to 2009 reveals nearby homes within 250 feet of a foreclosure lose 1% of value.

One reason- the condition of a foreclosed house often deteriorates and falls into disrepair.

Real Estate Agent Danny Griffin runs his own firm selling property across Massachusetts. He points out that foreclosures often sell for a discount as banks look to quickly unload unwanted property.

“It becomes a hot potato on their books and they need to get rid of it and when somebody needs to get rid of something that’s the deepest discount and not good for the neighborhood,” said Griffin. “And a foreclosure, not being lived in, can absolutely have the broken window effect.”

Comment by Shelby
2010-08-23 11:56:59

Yep 2010 is the “Year of the Short Sale” !!

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 11:11:15

Worst traffic jam ever? Gridlock spans 60 miles ~ CNBC

A traffic jam stretching more than 60 miles in China has entered its ninth day with no end in sight, state media reported.

Cars and trucks have been slowed to a crawl since August 14 on the National Expressway 110, which is also known as the G110, the major route from Beijing to Zhangjiakou, Xinhua News reported.

Officials expect the congestion to continue until workers complete construction projects on September 13, the report said.

State media reported that Chinese drivers have become accustomed to the severe delays, noting a similar jam in July that slowed traffic for close to a month.

Britain’s Sky News reported that the snarls have been commonplace since May as a result of a spike in the number of trucks using the roads, with the daily peak reaching about 17,000.

Comment by In Colorado
2010-08-23 12:58:45

This sounds like a Dr. Who episode.

 
 
Comment by pressboardbox
2010-08-23 11:16:08

“Give me all of MY money!”

Man robs congressional candidate:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/08/23/1787656/police-still-searching-for-gunman.html

 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 11:21:28

Credit card interest rates are through the roof
August 23, 2010

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — Credit card interest rates soared in the second quarter to a nine-year spike, according to the market research company Synovate.

The average interest rate on existing cards jumped to 14.7% last quarter, up from 13.1% a year earlier, Synovate said. Synovate is the market research arm of Aegis Group plc.

The jump created a dramatic spread of 11.45 percentage points between the average credit card interest rate and the prime rate — the largest margin in 22 years, according to Synovate.

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 11:25:01

Gee - who would’ve thought that an effort by the government to bring costs down would actually cause costs to increase instead?

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 12:01:29

“…cause costs to increase instead?”

The MSM reports may make it appear that way, but I believe that is a mischaracterization. What has actually happened is that regulation has forced an inefficiency on the market, as credit card providers are charging extra to individuals who are relatively better credit risks to pay for their inability to raise interest rates on those who prove to be poor credit risks.

Comment by packman
2010-08-23 12:19:24

The average however (unless the article is lying) has gone up significantly.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 14:55:02

What has actually happened is that regulation has forced an inefficiency on the market, as credit card providers are charging extra to individuals who are relatively better credit risks to pay for their inability to raise interest rates on those who prove to be poor credit risks.

And I’ll betcha that more than a few of those good credit risks are cutting up their cards.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 21:11:40

We just pay ours off religiously every month. If they start charging fees regardless of whether we pay them off, into the shredder they go…

 
 
 
Comment by sfbubblebuyer
2010-08-23 14:16:12

The companies have to maintain their usurious margins somehow!

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 21:13:15

Don’t forget to weigh their adverse selection problem into consideration before getting too critical. After all, people who don’t need credit will avoid paying high rates. And people who do need credit have a higher-than-average propensity to not repay it.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 11:29:31

The Next Bubble? Investors Flee Stocks in Droves In Favor of Bonds
Aug 23, 2010 Peter Gorenstein in Investing, Recession

Individual investors are fed up with the stock market. Burnt by 10 years of negative returns, two crashes, and a current economy mired with high unemployment and lackluster growth, many are throwing in the towel.

Investors have pulled $33.12 billion from U.S. mutual funds this year through July, according to the Investment Company Institute, the mutual fund industry trade group. With the exception of 2008 (height of the financial crisis), that’s on pace to be the worst year for stock funds since the 1980s, reports The New York Times.

What’s interesting is, this mass exodus comes at a time when stocks are holding up relatively well, as Aaron and Henry point out in this clip. The Dow Jones Industrial average has been volatile but is down less than 2% this year. Not exactly crash territory.

The next bubble?

Investors are fleeing the stock market in favor of bond funds. It’s happening at such a staggering rate, Bloomberg compares the flood of money into bonds to the stock market bubble surrounding the dot.com craze:

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 21:09:43

“Investors have pulled $33.12 billion from U.S. mutual funds this year through July, according to the Investment Company Institute, the mutual fund industry trade group.”

Telling, isn’t it, that the stock market has barely dropped at all this year in response to huge outflows form mutual funds?

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 12:37:47

Hiring Spree Gets Long in the Tooth ~ WSJ

Wall Street employees about to return from the summer doldrums have something new to worry about: their jobs.

The weak economy, volatile markets, regulatory upheaval and changes in how traders and investment bankers are paid are starting to trigger job cuts that could reverse a recent rebound in overall employment levels at banks and securities firms.

While the firings so far add up to a tiny slice of all Wall Street jobs, companies and analysts say deeper cuts are looming unless business revs up soon. “When push comes to shove, Wall Street firms are erring on the side of caution

Comment by measton
2010-08-23 15:32:01

At some point at lot of people who wrongly considered themselves elite or were certain they were on their way to becoming elite, will discover that they too have become food for the beast.

Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 17:17:42

Unfortunately, it still seems like not enough have.

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 12:46:41

New health plans for uninsured off to slow start
Some can’t afford it, some not eligible ~ MSNBC

Ruth Titus, a 59-year-old cook from Taos, N.M., leaped at the opportunity in July to sign up for health insurance under a new federally subsidized program for uninsured people with health problems. With her history of bladder cancer, she said “it was hopeless to even look” for private coverage because she’d be turned down.

Titus is one of what some officials say has been an unexpectedly small number of people to sign up for the program, which was touted by the Obama administration as an early benefit of the new health overhaul law. It began last month in 30 states with the expectation that many thousands of uninsured people would apply for the opportunity to get comprehensive coverage regardless of their health status. But that hasn’t been the case.

About 3,600 people have applied and about 1,200 have been approved so far in state plans that started in the beginning of July, according to data from the states and federal government. Officials say the new plans, although a better deal than anything comparable on the private market, still may be unaffordable for many people. Eligibility requirements are another possible barrier. And states have had little time to publicize the plans.

It’s too soon to gauge the program’s impact. The plans won’t be up and running in all the states until September. But some officials are surprised.

“It’s early, but thus far interest in the program is lower than we expected,” said Michael Keough, executive director of the North Carolina Health Insurance Risk Pool, which started July 1. As of Tuesday, 258 people had applied and 121 had been approved.

Cover Colorado, the program’s name in that state, has received 314 applications; 158 people are enrolled.

“We’re happy not to be overrun with people,” said Suzanne Bragg-Gamble, the executive director. But it’s “a very low number given that there are hundreds of thousands of uninsured in the state.”

Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 13:15:09

With her history of bladder cancer, she said “it was hopeless to even look” for private coverage because she’d be turned down.

Duhhuhhh? Hello? Why would a private insurance company EVER insure someone who needed insurance?

 
Comment by Arizona Slim
2010-08-23 14:58:47

Methinks that this affordability problem will be the death knell of private insurance.

As I’ve mentioned before, there are a lot of uninsured people who just can’t pay what the insurance companies charge. More than a few of them have been sharing this info with their congress critters, who, being legislators, will have to do something.

Add this to the fact that there are a lot of unemployed people who’ve lost their employer plans and they can’t swing the COBRA payments. Not to mention the public health disaster associated with the Gulf oil spill.

So, like it or not, government insurance will be coming to the fore in a big way. Look for thepublic option to come first, followed by single payer plans in various states and regions.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2010-08-23 15:23:59

Yep. Health Care As We Know It will be one of the things ‘gone with the wind’ of this depression.

 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 17:20:30

But some officials are surprised.

“It’s early, but thus far interest in the program is lower than we expected,” said Michael Keough, executive director of the North Carolina Health Insurance Risk Pool, which started July 1. As of Tuesday, 258 people had applied and 121 had been approved.

Because they have NO DAMN CLUE.

50 MILLION people in this country can barely afford it even it’s free!

50. Damn. Million.

Comment by krazy bill
2010-08-23 19:43:22

It certainly isn’t free.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/2010/08/15/20100815biz-insider0815alltucker.html

Az median household income- $51k
median per capita- $31k

For someone over 55 that’s at least $8,256 and up to $14,206 per year.

 
 
 
Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 13:14:28

drumminj,
You around?

 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 13:18:56

Louisiana fishermen net more cash working for BP. “Thank god for BP.”
Venice, Louisiana

In the early afternoon, when the Louisiana sun begins its slow descent, the wide and shady bow of the Soul Mama provides an excellent place to hang a hammock, as Neil Foret has discovered over the past few months.

The white shrimp season officially began this week in Louisiana, and at this time of year 46-year-old Mr Foret, a hardened Cajun shrimper from Houma in the Mississippi delta, would normally be out on the water plying the trade that has kept him and his family since he was 13.

But now that he is a BP contractor through the oil company’s Vessels of Opportunity programme, designed to employ local fishermen in the oil spill clean-up operations, he earns more consistent money, and works a lot less than he used to.

“BP is a very nice fella, and this is a guaranteed cheque,” he says, pointing to a huge yellow skin or “bladder” on his boat that is used to collect skimmed oil. “I’m sticking with this for as long as I can.”

All over Louisiana, it is the same story: fishermen involved in the programme – according to BP, there are 2,000 vessels currently on active hire in the VoO – are discovering that hauling oil boom is far less taxing than shrimping, and they are in no hurry to return to their traditional way of life.

In Venice, Louisiana, the nerve centre of BP’s operation to remove the estimated 200m gallons of oil that gushed into the Gulf of Mexico after the blowout of Deepwater Horizon on April 20, the atmosphere is like a modern-day version of the Californian gold rush.

Pick-up trucks drive up and down the puddled road leading to BP’s command centre, and contractors of dozens of different companies offering a seemingly endless array of services line up to report on work as well as to seek out the latest opportunities. Captain Michael Owen, better known as the big “O”, has been doing pretty well out of BP. For the past three months, he and his 24-foot fishing boat have been ferrying clean-up workers to parts of the Gulf affected by the oil spill.

As a BP contractor, he does not have to worry about securing charter fishing contracts for small parties of tourists visiting the Mississippi delta, the business he ran until the oil spill. Nor does he have to stress over the pressure to find fish – redfish and speckled trout – for his demanding clients.

“I’m super happy with BP,” he says. “And I’m not taking a cut [in pay].”

Of course, for those fishermen who have not been able to get on the programme, the oil spill has been a devastating blow. They have been almost closed down for the past four months because of widespread fishing bans.

More worrying, perhaps, is that the oil spill has undermined the image Gulf seafood once had in the rest of the country.

In the first week of the white shrimp season, many fishermen complain that docks and processing plants throughout Louisiana remain closed because their customers no longer want to buy.

But for those commercial and charter fishermen on the programme, there has been little in the way of grumbling since the oil spill. As Chucky Farkas, a blond shrimper with piercing blue eyes and thickset shoulders, says, “Some people complain about BP but you ain’t going to hear me complaining.”

Between the rain showers that pass over the bayous of southern Louisiana during the summer months, Bobby Dugas relaxes with a cigarette and a beer on the deck of a nearby marina.

Mr Dugas, a lean and tanned 54-year-old with a bald head and a white tuft of hair under his lip, is officially contracted until about 5pm each day. But he says that he often finishes early.

It has been that way for many of the 74 days he has been on the oil company’s payroll. And at $1,500 a day – $1,200 for his boat and $300 for his time – he is reasonably happy with how his summer has gone.

“It takes you three days to make that charter fishing,” says a charter fisherman from Port Sulphur about 30 miles up the road. “Thank god for BP.”

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 15:29:25

Cheney’s / BP’s PR spokesperson gives score update: ;-)

BP = 1
(Non-Hawaiian) Socialist-Muslim lil’ Opie = -2

 
 
Comment by ACH
2010-08-23 13:29:45

Time to feed Eddie, but I can’t find him. Did he get out of the back yard and get hit by a car?

Roidy

Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 14:11:55

did you check under the bridge?

 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 14:20:25

My guess is he’s out tooling around in his shiny new DOW 12,000-GT 5-speed V-8. Hunting down Fla. condoz.

 
Comment by alpha-sloth
2010-08-23 14:59:21

Harvard alumni meeting

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 19:51:56

He has a tendency to vanish when the stock market is dropping day-in, day-out.

 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 14:17:37

And what is there to reckon with today? ~ Bill Bonner

Slowly, the idea of “recovery” is fading. People are beginning to realize that we are in a Great Correction, not a typical post-war recession.

“The Never Ending Recession,” is one title in the financial news.

“Consumers slow to spend, businesses slow to hire,” The Washington Post sums up the situation.

“US Restaurants Starved for Business,” reports The Los Angeles Times.

The Dow fell 57 points on Friday, after a big down day on Thursday. Gold lost $6.

Are you invested in stocks, dear reader?

You are? Shame on you!

Of course, there are always one or two stocks that will buck the trend. And if you’re willing to wait, say, 20 years, you might be okay.

But in the next few years, US stocks are not likely to pay off. The stock market entered a bear phase in January 2000. Since then, stock market investors have made some money and lost some money. Some are ahead a little. Some are behind. Most have gotten nowhere.

But the bear still hasn’t fully expressed himself. The stock market still hasn’t reached its rendezvous with desperation. That’s when you will be able to buy stocks without worrying about further price erosion. That’s when the sellers have sold and the typical person wants nothing more to do with stocks.

The ideas of “stocks for the long run” and “stocks for everyone” are not permanent, universal truths. They are merely cyclical fads. People believe in stocks when stocks have been doing well. They stop believing in them when they stop doing well.

Comment by combotechie
2010-08-23 15:07:10

“But the bear still hasn’t fully expressed itself. The stock market still hasn’t reached its rendezvous with desperation.”

But it’s well on its way to getting there. As the need for cash itensifies stocks and other investment thingies (gold, maybe?) will be swapped for short stacks of the fiats.

Cash will continue to rule.

Comment by combotechie
2010-08-23 19:30:51

The multitudes of workers who were talked into taking early retirement and cashing out their pensions and 401Ks and turning them over to investment advisors and account managers who promised them 10%, 12%, 15% - even more - annual returns are now going to have to rethink what they are going to do in the coming years because these returns ARE NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

One thing they WON’T BE DOING is buying stocks, because they WON’T HAVE ANY MONEY.

If anything they will be SELLERS of stocks.

Sellers? Sellers to whom? (Hint: Since it takes money to buy stocks the buyers of their stocks will end up being those folks who have the CASH.)

 
 
 
Comment by wmbz
2010-08-23 14:27:24

Eli Broad to Build Museum, Foundation Offices in L.A.
Bloomberg

Billionaire Eli Broad said he will build the Broad Collection, a public contemporary art museum and headquarters for his art foundation, in downtown Los Angeles near the Walt Disney Concert Hall.

Billionaire Eli Broad said he will build the Broad Collection, a public contemporary art museum and headquarters for his art foundation, in downtown Los Angeles near the Walt Disney Concert Hall.

The 120,000-square-foot museum will cost $80 million to $120 million, Eli and Edythe Broad said today in an e-mailed statement. He will also pay $7.7 million to lease the land, and they will endow the Broad Art Foundation with $200 million to cover its ongoing annual operating expenses.

The project, to be designed by New York-based architects Diller Scofidio & Renfro, received final approval today from the Grand Avenue Authority, made up of city and county officials who oversee the areas’ redevelopment, said Broad, 77. Construction is set to begin in early 2011 and be completed in late 2012.

The new museum will provide a home for some of Broad’s 2,000 pieces of art, which he’s been collecting for more than three decades. Broad made his first fortune as co-founder of Los Angeles-based KB Home, a home-building company he started in 1957 with Donald Kaufman who died last year. Broad later pocketed $3.4 billion when sold his 19 percent stake in insurer SunAmerica Inc.

The museum will rise across Grand Avenue from the Frank Gehry-designed Disney hall, near the Arata Isozaki-designed Museum of Contemporary Art and a civic park under construction. Broad said he hopes the project will help jump-start further development.

‘Iconic Piece’

“This will be an iconic piece of architecture,” Broad said in the statement. In March, Forbes magazine estimated his wealth at $5.7 billion.

 
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 15:22:27

Monsanto = “These f@!king Guys!,” Jon Stewart. ;-)

BWAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! (fpss™)

&

Ho ho, hah hah, hehehehehehe, BwaHaHaAhHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! (Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb-thrower™)

Is Your Favorite Ice Cream Made With Monsanto’s Artificial Hormones?:

John Robbins / Author of The New Good Life, Diet For A New America, and many other bestsellers Posted: August 19, 2010

“…Monsanto has been in the news this week, with a U.S. District Court Judge ruling that the USDA has to at least go through the motions of regulating the company’s genetically engineered sugar beets. Monsanto, you may know, is not likely to win any contests for the most popular company. In fact, it has been called the most hated corporation in the world, which is saying something, given the competition from the likes of BP, Halliburton and Goldman Sachs.

Was Taylor unbiased? Prior to holding that position, he was an attorney at King & Spaulding, Monsanto’s law firm, where he presided over the firm’s “food and drug law” practice. After the decision was made which gave the green light to rBGH, he left the FDA and resumed working directly for Monsanto, as vice president and chief lobbyist.

How, then, was such a dubious and tainted product ever approved for use in the U.S.? The answer provides a glimpse of how successful Monsanto’s efforts have been to exert control over our nation’s food policies.

By all accounts, the FDA’s 1993 decision to allow the use of rBGH was one of the most controversial in the agency’s history. Made amid widespread criticism from scientists, government leaders and farmers, including many researchers and officials inside the FDA, the decision was overseen by Michael R. Taylor, the FDA’s Deputy Commissioner of Policy from 1991-1994.

Congressman Bernie Sanders was specifically referring to Taylor when he said “the FDA allowed corporate influence to run rampant in its approval of BGH.” Documentaries including “The World According to Monsanto” and “The Future of Food” present Taylor’s pro-Monsanto actions at the FDA as a dramatic example of the how corporate influence has exerted massive control over the FDA. Today, Taylor again works for the FDA, now as Deputy Commissioner of Foods.

Things have taken a different turn in Canada, but not for want of effort on the part of Monsanto. During Canada’s scientific review of Monsanto’s application for approval of rBGH, Canadian health officials said Monsanto tried to bribe them, and government scientists testified that they were being pressured by higher-ups to approve rBGH against their better scientific judgment. But in 1999, after eight years of study, Canadian health authorities rejected Monsanto’s application for approval of rBGH.

In the U.S. today, Monsanto continues to wield massive influence over U.S. food policies. In spite of, or perhaps in response to, Monsanto’s toxic and tenacious grip on our nation’s food policy, a movement is afoot. Every day more and more people are refusing to buy ice cream and other dairy products made with rBGH. And every day another organization adds its name to the growing list of groups campaigning against Monsanto’s influence, and calling for the FDA decision allowing the use of rBGH to be revoked.

Does the increase in udder infections have an effect on the milk, and thus any ice cream, cheese or other product made from it? Most definitely, according to Dr. Richard Burroughs, a veterinarian deeply familiar with rBGH. “It results in an increase of white blood cells,” he says, “which means there’s pus in the milk!” The antibiotic use, he adds, “leaves residues in the milk. It’s all very serious.”

This has gotten me thinking about, of all things, ice cream, and of how Monsanto’s clammy paws can be found in some of the most widely selling ice cream brands in the country. These brands could break free from Monsanto’s clutches. So far they haven’t, but maybe this is about to change.

Ben & Jerry’s gets all their milk from dairies that have pledged not to inject their cows with genetically engineered bovine growth hormone (rBGH). Why, then, can’t Haagen Dazs, Breyers and Baskin-Robbins do the same?

Starbucks now guarantees that all their milk, cream and other dairy products are rBGH-free. So do Yoplait and Dannon yogurts, Tillamook cheese, Chipotle restaurants, and many others. But ice cream giants Haagen Dazs, Breyers and Baskin-Robbins continue to use milk from cows injected with rBGH, a hormone that’s been banned in Canada, New Zealand, Japan, Australia and all 27 nations of the European Union. As if to add insult to injury, Haagen Dazs and Breyers have the audacity to tell us, right on the label, that their ice cream is ” All Natural.”

We have Monsanto to thank for rBGH. Monsanto developed the artificial hormone and marketed it aggressively for years, before selling it in 2008 to Elanco, a division of the Eli Lilly drug company. Of course, Monsanto (and now Elanco) wants us to think the hormone is in every way completely satisfactory and safe. Monsanto’s party line has consistently been that there is “no significant difference” in the milk derived from cows who have been dosed with the hormone compared to those who haven’t.

There are, indeed. One of them is that injecting the genetically engineered hormone into cows increases the levels of a substance called IGF-1 in their milk. Monsanto’s own studies found that the amount of IGF-1 in milk more than doubled when cows were injected with rBGH.

How serious is the increased risk? According to an article in the May 9, 1998 issue of the medical journal The Lancet, pre-menopausal women with even moderately elevated blood levels of IGF-1 are up to seven times more likely to develop breast cancer than women with lower levels.

As if these risks to human health weren’t enough reason for nations to prohibit the use of rBGH, there are more. The artificial hormone is also notorious for causing the cows much pain and distress. It does this by increasing painful and debilitating diseases like lameness and mastitis in cows who are injected with it. And because it increases udder infections in cows, it has greatly increased the use of antibiotics in the U.S. dairy industry. If you wanted to design a system to breed antibiotic-resistant bacteria, you’d be hard pressed to do better.”

BWAHAHAHicHAHAHicHAHAHAHAHicHAHAHic* (DennisN™)

Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 16:18:23

“It results in an increase of white blood cells,” he says, “which means there’s pus in the milk!” The antibiotic use, he adds, “leaves residues in the milk. It’s all very serious.”

Rich, creamy goodness.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 16:19:52

John Robbins / Author of The New Good Life, Diet For A New America, and many other bestsellers Posted: August 19, 2010

His new book: The New Good Life: Living Better Than Ever in an Age of Less

John Robbins (The rebel Baskin Robbins ex-heir) was pretty cool the couple time I met him. Glad to see him back in the saddle with a new bestseller.

He had lost most of his fortune in the Madoff thing:

What’s left when the money’s gone? / Soquel writer lost his life savings after unwittingly investing with Madoff

http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-02-23/living/17117630_1_baskin-robbins-madoff-ponzi-lives

Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 17:14:50

Many Tankxs again Rio! ;-)

“…I remind myself, when my brain starts to feel as if it’s a paranoid hamster running obsessively on a wheel of worry, that if we become too focused on money we lose sight of why our lives truly matter in the same way that obsessing about one’s death could keep you from living fully. If we’re too worried about the collapse of capitalism-as-we know-it we could cheat ourselves out of the opportunity to simply enjoy everything else that we already have, our families, friends, community, pets and all the little pleasures like that first delicious cup of coffee in the morning.”

Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 17:29:09

Nice quote!

If we’re too worried about the collapse of capitalism-as-we know-it we could cheat ourselves out of the opportunity to simply enjoy everything else that we already have, our families, friends, community, pets and all the little pleasures like that first delicious cup of coffee in the morning.

In other words, Rancher has found the perfect balance! Worrying about the collapse of capitalism as we know it - while enjoying that first delicious cup of coffee in the morning.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2010-08-23 17:46:25

:-)

(I’ll never make it there, go ahead without ol’ Hwy, as I can’t seem to get to the same side of the river wherein lies the worriers, as soon as I see’s ‘em, eyes always drift over to the other side, the stones they throw are less lethal…) ;-)

 
 
 
Comment by ecofeco
2010-08-23 17:26:03

Rio, I’m trying real hard to feel sorry for those people… but it just isn’t happening. :lol:

Comment by Housing Wizard
2010-08-23 22:02:19

Don’t the victims get up to 500k from a SEC Victim fund and any additional money they might get from cases against feeder funds ?
In other words ,its not like these people will be flat ass broke like a person who has to live on the streets or in a car .

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 
 
 
 
Comment by hip in zilker
2010-08-23 17:32:25

From the AP. This one’s for you NYCdj :

ATLANTA – Federal agents are seeking to hire Ebonics translators to help interpret wiretapped conversations involving targets of undercover drug investigations.

Comment by Red Beach
2010-08-23 17:39:29

Code Talkers!

Actually, street slang is fairly straightforward. Things like “Skittles” are drugs because you “taste the rainbow.”

It’s kind of a joke that the fed doesn’t have anyone on staff to get it.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 19:41:21

* AUGUST 23, 2010, 1:05 P.M. ET

Fed’s Hoenig: Mistake To View Housing As Investment Opportunity
DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

OVERLAND PARK, Kansas (Dow Jones)–The troubled U.S. housing market is not a place where Americans should speculate or look to invest, the chief of the Kansas City Federal Reserve said Monday.

If the American people are looking at the housing market to be their investment opportunity, I think they are making a mistake,” said Thomas Hoenig, president of Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City.

The housing market remains burdened by excess supply, a condition that was created by providing financing leverage at levels that were considered “nonsense,” Hoenig said during testimony at a field hearing by the U.S. House Financial Services Committee’s oversight and investigations subcommittee in Overland Park, Kan.

Future financing in the housing market, currently in the hands of Congress and the Obama Administration, will require regulatory oversight, he said.

It’s more than just what do you do with Fannie [Mae] and Freddie [Mac], that’s hard enough, but it’s how you’re going to decide to finance housing in America in the future and what impact it will have on regional community banks,” said Hoenig.

He sees continued improvement in the U.S. economy, though there are issues that need to be addressed.

I think the economy will continue to improve, I think we will have new opportunities and we will prosper. However, we have some things to get through,” he said.

There is a great deal of uncertainty about regulatory issues related to the U.S. health-care and financial reform laws, he said. Once those issues are resolved, it will be easier to move the economy forward.

The U.S. also must systematically deal with its burgeoning national debt “to give the American people confidence that we won’t try and solve it all in one year, but we’ll get on a path and we’ll solve it and therefore consumers and businesses can make decisions that are long term…and then we can think of very optimistic outcomes for the U.S. economy,” said Hoenig.

The Kansas City Fed chief made his remarks during the hearing titled “End of Excess,” chaired by Rep. Dennis Moore (D., Kan.).

Hoenig testified that the too-big-to-fail policies that have propped up the nation’s largest banks have given them greater leverage and consistently lower cost of capital and debt, putting smaller community banks at a disadvantage.

Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 20:52:37

“If the American people are looking at the housing market to be their investment opportunity, I think they are making a mistake,”

I remember when Kohn made similar veiled warnings in Spring 2006, just before the bubble popped with a little help from the Fed.
Smart flippers will take this as a hint to stand back before the Fed nudges the real estate market over the edge of the next cliff in line.

 
Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2010-08-23 21:19:38

“If the American people are looking at the housing market to be their investment opportunity, I think they are making a mistake,” said Thomas Hoenig, president of Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City.

Laugh. Scoff maybe. The Midwest had the least HB. The Midwest’s Fed Dude also made and makes the most sense.

Yea, I know, the weather sucks. But have you seen the clouds and the lighting? It’s like a thousand lens filters in one year.

 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 19:59:26

While fiat money can be created on an electronic balance sheet with a keystroke, confidence, or the word I prefer, trust, is far more easily destroyed than created.

* OPINION
* AUGUST 24, 2010

The Fed Can Create Money, Not Confidence
Inflation—or stagflation—remains the more serious danger than deflation.

By GEORGE MELLOAN

A report by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York last week showed that consumers are having difficulty climbing out of the debt hole they dug for themselves before the credit bubble began to deflate in late 2007. The report gives support to the fears of those asset managers and economists who believe the U.S. is facing deflation.

Bill Gross, manager of the $239 billion Pimco bond fund, is one. His evidence is that the Consumer Price Index (CPI), annualized over the last two years, has fallen slightly.

Since deflation, in simple monetarist terms, means too little money chasing too many goods, with a consequent fall in prices, the remedy should be easy. Can’t the Federal Reserve create as much money as it wants with just a few key strokes? Well, there are some things money can’t buy. In political circumstances like today’s, one of them is public confidence.

In fact, the Fed has been fighting deflation for nearly two years. It began pumping new money into the economy after the September 2008 stock market crash to restore liquidity in the financial system. It has kept the pumps running by maintaining a near-zero interest rate target. Its net purchases—with newly created dollars—of government and government-agency bonds have totaled some $1.4 trillion, expanding its balance sheet to $2.3 trillion. As the Fed pumped out new money, member bank reserves ballooned and now exceed $1 trillion. That means a vast amount of money is on deposit in Fed accounts, ready to be flooded into the economy if loan demand increases.

So what’s the problem? Here it is best to depart from monetarist terminology, with its heavy emphasis on the magical powers of the central bank. Those magical powers are highly overrated, as almost anyone who has ever run a central bank will likely tell you. The Fed can flood the banks with liquidity in an effort to stimulate economic growth (if it is willing to run the very serious risk of inflation). But that will not necessarily stimulate a demand for this money.

Mr. Melloan, a former columnist and deputy editor of the Journal editorial page, is author of “The Great Money Binge: Spending Our Way to Socialism” (Simon & Schuster, 2009).

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 21:06:26

I love the smell of capitulation in the morning!

15 Signs The U.S. Housing Market Is Headed For Complete And Total Collapse

Michael Snyder, The Economic Collapse | Aug. 20, 2010, 11:24 AM

The U.S. housing market is dying. You will only hear hints of this on the mainstream news and from the politicians in Washington D.C., but as statistic after statistic continues to roll in, the reality of what is happening is becoming very difficult to deny.

Up until the end of April, the giant tax credit that the U.S. government was bribing home buyers with helped stabilize the real estate market, but now that the tax credit has expired the decline of the U.S. housing market has resumed. Mortgage defaults continue to set new records. Foreclosures continue to set new records. Home repossessions by banks continue to set new records. The number of homes being constructed and the number of Americans applying for home loans is at stunningly low levels.

For decades, owning a home has been touted as the very heart of “the American Dream”, but today that dream is out of reach for an increasing number of Americans. Why? It is because there are not nearly enough jobs for everyone. Without a jobs recovery, there simply is not going to be a housing recovery. Unfortunately, as the U.S. economy continues to come apart like a 20 dollar suit, even more Americans are going to lose their jobs and the U.S. housing industry will continue to experience a very painful decline.

The truth is that this is not a short-term downturn in the housing market. During the past two decades, an insane amount of debt fueled an artificial housing bubble that drove home prices to ridiculous levels. Now the U.S. housing market is trying to correct itself, and no matter how many trillions of dollars the U.S. government throws at the problem the fundamentals of the marketplace are still going to have their way eventually.

The U.S. economy is in decline. The employment situation is going to go from bad to worse. Americans without jobs are Americans that cannot buy homes. Millions of Americans who are employed are finding it increasingly difficult to make it from month to month. The truth is that there is no way that Americans can afford the ridiculously inflated home prices that we have seen over the past decade any longer.

So, yes, the U.S. housing market is headed for a complete and total nightmare.

So exactly how bad are things out there right now?

The following are 15 signs that the U.S. housing market is headed for a complete and total nightmare.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 21:18:30

That “plump nest egg” had such a great fall,that all the king’s horses and all the king’s men couldn’t put it back together again.

Housing Fades as a Means to Build Wealth, Analysts Say
By DAVID STREITFELD
Published: August 22, 2010

Housing will eventually recover from its great swoon. But many real estate experts now believe that home ownership will never again yield rewards like those enjoyed in the second half of the 20th century, when houses not only provided shelter but also a plump nest egg.

The wealth generated by housing in those decades, particularly on the coasts, did more than assure the owners a comfortable retirement. It powered the economy, paying for the education of children and grandchildren, keeping the cruise ships and golf courses full and the restaurants humming.

More than likely, that era is gone for good.

“There is no iron law that real estate must appreciate,” said Stan Humphries, chief economist for the real estate site Zillow. “All those theories advanced during the boom about why housing is special — that more people are choosing to spend more on housing, that more people are moving to the coasts, that we were running out of usable land — didn’t hold up.”

Instead, Mr. Humphries and other economists say, housing values will only keep up with inflation. A home will return the money an owner puts in each month, but will not multiply the investment.

Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, estimates that it will take 20 years to recoup the $6 trillion of housing wealth that has been lost since 2005. After adjusting for inflation, values will never catch up.

“People shouldn’t look at a home as a way to make money because it won’t,” Mr. Baker said.

If the long term is grim, the short term is grimmer. Housing experts are bracing themselves for Tuesday, when the sales figures for July will be released. The data is expected to show a drop of as much as 20 percent from last year.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 22:56:34

The 15 States With The Most Underwater Mortgages

1/16

Idaho — 22.7% of mortgages underwater

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 22:58:28

Here’s Why Mortgage Delinquencies Are Still A Big And Growing Problem

1/30

February delinquencies were up 21.3% from last year

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2010-08-23 23:02:47

Real estate flippers should be scared — very, very scared by the contents of this speech. I’ve noticed the Fed has a slight tendency to turn its predictions into self-fulfilling prophecies.

Fed President Hoenig:
If You’re Buying A House As An Investment, You’re Making A Mistake
Gregory White | Aug. 23, 2010, 1:10 PM

Kansas City Fed President Thomas Hoenig spoke on CNBC about the future of the U.S. housing market, and the state of the deleveraging process.

* 0:30 If you run much higher leverage, your margin for error slims out, as you have less capital. The debt will remain, and, like in the crisis we’re in, your capital remains low. In the future their needs to be more capital on hand at banks to deal with asset devaluations.

* 1:40 The claim that a credit crisis will be caused by new rules increasing capital is what is standing in the way. We need to give the banks time. The deleveraging of the country has to take place.

* 3:00 “If the American people are looking for the housing market to be their investment opportunity, I think they’re making a mistake.” The economics of the industry, and the excess supply is standing in the way of growth, and this was caused by leverage.

* 3:45 Would like everyone to have a home, but if it’s not possible, and we try to make it possible, we create the next problem.

 
Name (required)
E-mail (required - never shown publicly)
URI
Your Comment (smaller size | larger size)
You may use <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> in your comment.

Trackback responses to this post