Falling Rates Aid Debtors, but Hamper SaversBy GRAHAM BOWLEY
Published: September 8, 2010
It is a side effect of a government policy meant to push down interest rates to a point that businesses and consumers are compelled to borrow and spend again, and yet it is hurting anyone with a savings account.
With the regulated rate that financial institutions can borrow from one another at almost zero, banks are paying savers next to nothing. The average returns on interest-bearing deposit accounts slipped to 0.99 percent in July, according to Market Rates Insight, which tracks bank rates. It is the first time its measure has dipped below 1 percent since the 1950s, when its data begins.
The low rates have for the first time forced my Mom into negative cash flow…She relied on the interest income to pay her bills…She does not consume much being that she is 85 years old “today” but she worries a lot about being able to take care of herself and the reduced interest income worries her because she fears she will run out of savings…
My folks are in the same pot of stew: Too scared to invest in risky assets, but doomed to zero returns and the risk of ‘higher than expected’ future inflation if they play it safe.
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Comment by Warren
2010-09-11 13:34:01
Your parents might want to take a look at Berkshire (BRKB). It is the highest quality stock on the NYSE. Having Warren Buffett investing your money is not entirely unacceptable.
Comment by jbunniii
2010-09-11 14:30:11
What happens when Buffett dies?
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 15:07:54
“What happens when Buffett dies?”
Warren CAN’T die silly he’s one of the Muppets. It’s all done with invisible strings, sticks and real magic.
I watch TV and I know these things !!
Comment by Kim
2010-09-11 15:19:18
“What happens when Buffett dies?”
The stock will tank, which just might actually make for a buying opportunity.
I retired a few years ago - mostly accidentally - because my nest egg would yield about $25-30K annually based on historical average CD yields over the last 50 years. Add another $20K when SS kicks in and I was looking at around $50K/year in retirement. Not rich but comfortable when you are frugal like me.
Now I’m only getting more like $10K and I have to deplete my nest egg about $14K per year to survive. Fixed costs such as Blue Cross, property tax, and insurance certainly aren’t going away. And there certainly isn’t any hiring going on for folks in their late 50’s who haven’t been employed for 5 years.
Unfortunately, the US government has become a Robin Hood of sorts, stealing from the prudent to reward the reckless, as evidenced by the zero interest rate policy (ZIRP) engineered by the Bernokio Federal Reserve.
It’s too bad that we Americans have become a nation of compliant sheep. In other eras of American history, thieves like Bernokio would have been hanged for their crimes.
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Comment by combotechie
2010-09-11 17:21:10
ZIRP means not having to pay income taxes on interest income.
ZIRP means one should keep his job; If earned income has to compete against interest income in bidding for goods and services then earned income will win out on the bidding because interest income won’t be showing up.
ZIRP makes the value of a job priceless. If one was to determine the value of a job by how much money it generates and then compare this job to an annuity that generates the same amount of money, then one could rightly say the value of the job is the same as the price of the annuity. The lower the amount of money the annuity pays out the greater the value of a job that pays out the same amount.
At a truly ZIRP rate an annuity would pay out a zero amount of money which would make the value of a job to have an infinite value in comparison.
I don’t get this strategy. Wouldn’t banks want savers? Savers give them money. Banks lend that money for say….houses.
Or does the fact that Fannie and Freddie still exist negate that need? As long as they can pass home loans along to Uncle Sugar, who needs savers? Is that how it works now?
Like anyone else who needs something, the bank shops around for what it needs (money) at the lowest price. The price of government money is the best price right now, so that’s who banks buy it from.
So, the bank has a supplier for all the money it needs, it turns around and sells (lends) that money at a profit, and doesn’t care about anything else.
——
The government knows what it’s doing. It lowered it’s price so that banks have no reason to go after saver’s-money… no reason to compete for it.. no reason to pay a lot (of interest) for it.
The govt has set up a situation where saving money in banks is not very profitable for savers.
The govt hopes that savers will put the money someplace with a better return than a bank will currently pay them, like maybe buy stocks or buy a home or a car (it doesn’t matter what), and stimulate the economy.
Nothing like a period when Main Street American households are losing their jobs in droves for Keynesian czars to strong-ARM them into committing to big-ticket purchases. The time to fix this problem would have been back when the housing bubble was blowing up to ginormous proportions; now is too late.
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Comment by joeyinCalif
2010-09-11 14:25:20
..Nothing like a period when Main Street American households are losing their jobs in droves..
well.. go buy something and maybe save someone’s job.
I just went to Costco and blew off $250. What have you done?
We have our house money in the bank (well, actually insured up to $900,000 at TDAmeritrade) and we should be making about $30K-$40K Interest Income. We have a lot of money sitting there. We feel like we bent over. We’ve always been frugal, like the rest of you.
If we could turn back the hands of time, we would have had a ball in an overpriced home, borrowed to the hilt, and then filed a Ch 13 BK Lien Strip on the additional mortgages, since the house would have been underwater. Wish we had eyes in the back of our heads. Darn it. (Morals, who needs them.You lose out.)
They don’t need them if the Fed loans to them (on a discriminatory basis) at or near zero percent. The banks get monopoly money for free which they can loan out to American households at market rates.
I would love to see the evidence that the Fed’s charter grants them the right to do this, at least on the scale which recently occurred. My impression, from my foggy recollection of how our banking system used to work back when it did, was that the discount window existed for the Fed to make loans on an extremely limited, highly discretionary basis to individual banks who got themselves into trouble.
Post-crisis, the old rules no longer applied and we entered an entirely new era, one where banks were enabled to obtain loanable funds at essentially zero cost for purposes of systemically extracting wealth from American households, or, if they so chose, to snap up foreclosure homes at fire sale prices and hold them off the market, keeping young American families priced out forever and paralyzing local housing and labor markets.
By contrast to the dreary experience on Main Street, the period since the Fall 2008 financial meltdown has been highly profitable for Megabank, Inc, as evidenced by the gargantuan bonuses they managed to pay out even in 2008, while Main Street America learned to enjoy the view from under the bus. It is time for the Fed brass to declare from the bow of the ship that major combat operations in the War on Savers are now over, and revisit the traditional rules of banking.
Foreclosure numbers continued their steady climb last month, according to numbers released Tuesday by real estate data firm The Warren Group.
In Bristol County, completed foreclosures more than doubled in July, jumping from 58 in July 2009 to 121. The region has been experiencing growth in foreclosures since December.
Foreclosure numbers “got better last year because there were an awful lot of programs and laws … that encouraged them to slow down,” said Vincent Valvo, editor-in-chief of Banker and Tradesman, a publication of The Warren Group. “But it’s an awful lot like taking aspirin when you’ve got a toothache: It makes it feel better for a little while, but then the pain comes roaring back.”
Plymouth County saw 114 foreclosures in July, up 70 percent from the July 2009 total of 67. The number of completed foreclosures in the area began rising in March.
On Cape Cod, the number of foreclosure deeds filed in July was 144 percent higher than during the same month last year, jumping from 27 in July 2009 to 66 last month. This increase marks the eighth straight month in which foreclosure numbers in Barnstable County have exceeded the previous year’s total after several months of declining foreclosure levels.
As the number of completed foreclosures has been climbing, however, the number of petitions to foreclose filed — the first step in the process — has been increasing far more slowly. This discrepancy, said Valvo, indicates that homeowners who enter the foreclosure process have a far greater chance of losing their houses than in the past.
“The probability that you will lose your home has increased exponentially,” he said.
At Housing Assistance Corp. in Hyannis, approximately 25 homeowners at risk of losing their homes call seeking help every week, said vice president of operations Nancy Davison. The agency’s three foreclosure prevention counselors have an active caseload of between 1,600 and 1,900 clients at any given time, she said.
Early on in the economic downturn, many of the organization’s clients had taken out subprime loans or other mortgages with questionable terms, she said. Now, however, “most of the people we’re working with have 30-year fixed mortgages,” Davison said. “Most of the people are here because of lost revenue and lost jobs.”
Even financial institutions that never made any subprime mortgages or loosened their lending standards during the housing boom are starting to see the impact of the economy on their borrowers.
“We have seen our borrowers struggling,” said Peter Muise, president and CEO of Fairhaven-based First Citizens’ Federal Credit Union.
Though his credit union has not seen as significant an uptick in foreclosures as the state as a whole, Muise is concerned about what might happen if the economy continues along its current path.
“Unless there is some systemic change, we will start to fall into line with the (statewide) numbers,” he said.
The high foreclosure numbers already have started to affect the real estate market by adding to the number of homes available for sale, said David Callahan, president of the Cape Cod and Islands Association of Realtors.
“Whenever you have a large inventory, it brings the prices down,” he said.
Driving on 6A through Cape Cod last weekend I couldn’t help but notice a realtors office every 1/2 mile or so was. There were a fair amount of for sale signs as well.
In remembrance of 9/11, a day that will live in infamy. I pray the US can heal itself and recover from all the havoc that has been wreaked on it from both outside and from within.
And, dear God, just a teensy little prayer, if You could see fit to rapture up Washington and Wall Street, I’d consider it a huge favor. Otherwise I’ll keep having to wish them into the cornfield.
We can’t do anything about the choices offered up but we can do something about the incumbancy.
The incumbants want to remain in office. This is the edge we voters have - it may be our only edge, but it might be edge enough. Send them a message that they might get fired and maybe they’ll clean up their act.
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Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2010-09-11 08:19:39
Sure you can do something about the choices. You can opt out of the Republicrat’s plutocrat puppet show and only back independent candidates who aren’t afraid to speak truth to power.
Comment by scdave
2010-09-11 09:08:13
back independent candidates ??
Insert “bank” for “back” and we have a shot because therein the problem…There is no possible was a independent candidate can make a national run at the presidency against the massive money machines of the DNC & RNC…That is unless, someone like Bloomberg along with the backing of Gates & Buffet step up and completely overwhelm the other two…It could happen but I am afraid it will not until the nation as a whole is completely in the $hitter…
Comment by Xiaoding
2010-09-11 12:48:28
Who cares about the Presidency? That’s backwards. Take over the local parties first, worry about the President later.
yup, but I will as usual go for the lesser of two evils. Things seem to work best when we have a democrat based house and senate, and a republican president and visa-versa…
Right now, I am VERY concerned about the attrition rates of small businesses… Obama seems to really have a thing against small business, which is unfortunate… Hopefully for him this November, because while I generally don’t much bother voting, he has definitely inspired me this year!
the best case will be to render him a lame duck president through the balance of his presidency, and hope we can get rid of Palin on the other side for the next elections or I will be ALL confused and not show up at all!
Could we hand out grubby, used clothes and shopping carts with broken wheels to WS and Washington? Cause that is where we will all end up if this monumental mess is not addressed. They could amble around central Washington DC, sleep in Battery Park in Manhattan, and talk to themselves.
Joey-
Yes, but it’s yourself in the mirror. That’s why I am thinking of a medical tourism one in Argentina for 50% less. Many of the docs were trained here.
You’re not a lady, so you’re not as vain.
You’re smart, young, and handsome, but one day…
Comment by scdave
2010-09-11 09:16:25
Awipeout…
Are you serious about the Medical trip to Argentina ?? Have you did the research ??
Reason I ask is because I need my knees scoped and cleaned up and I know there is no way my medical Ins. will cover it because they consider it a elective procedure since it does not effect my ability to function daily..I bet it would run $15,000 per knee if not more…They don’t give a rats a$$ if I cannot go play softball or run…Let me know please…Thanks
Comment by joeyinCalif
2010-09-11 09:19:54
Actually, children look at me, begin to cry and reach out for their mothers… otoh, beautiful women find me attractive for some perverse reason.
I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder..
Comment by joeyinCalif
2010-09-11 09:23:20
scdave.. i know someone who only had to go as far Arkansas for some half-price dental implant work.
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-09-11 09:48:01
scdave
You can check out Hospital Planet in Calabasas, So Ca (yes, they have a website). I know a few folks who have used them to match them up with the right country and hospital, for different types of procedures and surgery, and they had great results. There is a video of a happy heart surgery patient who went to India on their website. Planet Hospital’s corp office is in a pretty affluent area, btw. Insurance companies are sending people out of the U.S. too.
Probably those false vampire teeth you see at Halloween.
Actually, I’ll be needing dental implants soon. Been missing two teeth my whole life, and currently have bridges. Once they fail (likely in the next year), implants will be the way to go, though at a cost of about $10k out of pocket for two teeth.
And of course I won’t be able to deduct that…
Comment by joeyinCalif
2010-09-11 18:01:24
sorry.. no punchline. A comedian could make something out of it.
The guy shopped a little and told me they would be half price in Arkansas… they run about 5K each in California. I haven’t heard back so can’t vouch for the price or the quality of treatment.
Bridges are very inferior.. gotta partially destroy the adjacent teeth to attach the bridge, etc. Implant is the way to go. One hour in the chair. Wait three months. Another hour and you have bionic teeth for life.
by Catherine Reagor - Sept. 9, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
Few homes are selling. Prices keep dropping.
In the metro Phoenix housing market, it’s all a simple matter of supply and demand: too many homes for sale and not enough buyers.
Of the people who are buying homes, more than a third are investors, snapping up mostly foreclosure homes at bargain prices and turning them into rentals. The number of houses on the market remains high, partly because many traditional homebuyers just aren’t buying.
Some of them want to buy - but can’t.
Mortgage requirements are tighter now than they have been in a generation, and many people who would like to get into the market can’t qualify.
Some of them can buy - but won’t.
Many renters today see friends and relatives burned by the housing collapse who now owe more than their homes are worth.
They’re reluctant to get in because they think home values will keep falling. Many young professionals say that they find such great bargains in rental homes, buying doesn’t make financial sense.
Can’t buy
Despite nearly record-low interest rates, lending guidelines for many borrowers are tougher than they’ve been in 20 years. Gone are the mortgages from the boom years that allowed people to purchase homes with little to no down payment or documentation of their incomes.
This is affecting all types of homebuyers. Except for first-time buyers who qualify for Federal Housing Administration loans that require as little as 3.5 percent down, many borrowers must now come up with at least 10 percent down payments and prove their income over multiple years.
Not me. No investing in houses ever. Never tried to make money with them. Just wanted to live in one. Never lost any money and made a bunch when I sold.
“Of the people who are buying homes, more than a third are investors, snapping up mostly foreclosure homes at bargain prices and turning them into rentals.”
Hence:
1. The rental market will become saturated with rentals and will force the cost of renting to decline.
2. Declining rental costs will futhur skew the rent/own ratio. If it makes mores sense to rent than to own then rent is what people will end up doing, which will add more pressure to the price decline of houses.
2. Declining house prices will add still more enthusiam to so-called bargain hunters (aka knifecatchers) and fire them up with more desire to pluck down money for houses so they can be turned into rentals with the result of more damage being done to the rental market which will ….
“1. The rental market will become saturated with rentals and will force the cost of renting to decline.”
And many a neighborhood will fall into a slum. Several rentals in my hood have had a continual stream of new renters and the places look like slum houses.
And when slum “tenant” gets hurt or worse when slum tenant “child” gets hurt because Slum “landlord” fails to respond to request for fixing a hazardous problem then;
There’s another side though…cheap rentals will bring people back out of their parent’s basements. It’s hard to extrapolate total rental demand based only upon current rental quantities. Does anyone have any statistics about how many people are back in mom and dad’s basement?
Does anyone have any statistics about how many people are back in mom and dad’s basement?
I can say that I know of one person - my brother. He’s back living with mom while get gets back on his feet financially…
Of course he didn’t sell his house - is just renting it out until the market recovers
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Comment by Matt_in_TX
2010-09-11 18:00:53
My brother is living at home again, driving my mother crazy with worry over what the idiot will do next. Thankfully, she has reversed mortgaged the house, so when she leaves, he gets the boot too.
I am very happy to be renting in Phoenix and L.A. Phoenix rental location cannot be better in the metro area. I feel more secure by not making any commitment in any form: real estate, marriage, even citizenship. Canada is looking better than the U.S. For now. But I do recognize we are in a cycle. I will wait it out and just invest in cheap things. Houses are not cheap yet, at least in Phoenix. Right now I am looking out my balcony window in Phoenix at the beautiful park (in Phoenix for the weekend). It will take a great deal on a custom home on the opposite side of the park to get me to get a little interest in commitment, or one along the Scottsdale greenbelt north of Indian School rd.
America’s greatness will return. I am sorry to tell that to you perma bears/grumps.
I am starting to scoop up undervalued stocks that pay low dividends.
I also like short term treasuries and avoid any treasury investment with a maturity over two years.
Precious metals and bonds are not cheap. Real estate in coastal cities of California certainly are not cheap. The next “big one” will make those homes cheap!
‘I am sorry to tell that to you perma bears/grumps’
Yeah, whatever. You ain’t tellin’ me anything, as I happen to think the housing crash is neccesary to getting the economy back to more productive means. Funny how almost everyone, including youself apparently, try to pin some of us down as ‘doom and gloom.’ I’ve always asked, what’s so gloomy about affordable housing?
‘The next “big one” will make those homes cheap’
So who’s the one cheering for massive earthquakes? Not me.
this drags on a few more years we will be talking Hundreds of thousands of homes being bulldozed because they aint worth fixin up….now that to me is a crime…so maybe a massive earthquake and getting this over with, is the lesser of two evils???
I doubt we’ll see that on a large scale. It isn’t practical and would cost the lenders more than selling. There are a lot of houses out there with near zero value but that was the case with or without a housing bubble. The problem for the lenders is they loaned against wore out housing, so they are stuck with those.
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 10:38:30
“wore out housing’ = another excellent HBB term Ben.
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-09-11 14:11:55
Ben:
what about Detroit Cleveland Camden NJ,other blighted areas?
and FL with those houses getting black mold and chinese drywall all closed up in the summer….are they really worth tearing apart and rebuilding?
I doubt we’ll see that on a large scale. It isn’t practical and would cost the lenders more than selling
No, a lot of stuff is going to be torn down. But I don’t think useful houses will be unless there is something like an unsalvageable HOA failure, and that should be a limited thing.
Don’t get me wrong, IMO, real estate is too expensive and going to be that way for years. I am bearish, but never perm bearish and never perma bullish.
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Comment by aqius
2010-09-11 09:40:24
I am neither a perma-bear nor a perma-bull, but merely a dancing matador with my sword of reality in the ring of life . . . full of sound and fury . . . signifying nothing.
So who’s the one cheering for massive earthquakes? Not me ??
Nor me…Why is the big one framed around the destruction to real estate anyway ?? That can always be rebuilt…The massive loss of life & injuries would dwarf 9/11 & Katrina…
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Comment by Matt_in_TX
2010-09-11 18:04:00
I quit praying for earthquakes. I think that Tsunamis are more humane, and better for the herd anyway.
Only the truely dumb ones run out onto the empty bay to listen to the realtors tout all the new land for sale.
Well, per phone call from my RE agent and a few minor details in my short sale offer CONTRACT, I am scheduled to close on my DreamHouse about a 150 miles, away on Monday, 13 September 2010.
This should prove most enlightening as neither the FB’s, their agent, my agent or I have heard anything from the banksters running this 4 star clown circus show.
Excuse me while I find a telephone booth, change into my tiny cape, grab a house inspection, title insurance, shack insurance and load my little moving van faster than a speeding pullet.
Oooops!…wouldn’t ya know it, there’s no telephone booth around either.
I bet you guys already knew that.
Life is Fantastic when you’re mikey and always having Fun !!
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Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-09-11 11:34:05
Mikey,
Wow, that’s great news. I’d have an “O” but at my age, I might kell over!
That was quick. Please give us some insight as to why your deal went through so quick. Did you pay cash?
I’m tickled for you.
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 12:15:27
Come Monday at midnight, the so-called “deal” expires due non-performance on the parties of the FB’s and their banksters masters.
Technically and legally of course, I could stay in the game and ammend and extend their deadline time period to complete this transaction for say…another 10k OFF my low ball offer.
That should produce some frowns.
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 12:31:50
Yeah…I’m cash.
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2010-09-11 12:33:24
Seems like it’s going the way of most short sales, Mikey. Both buyer and seller agree, then the bank does nothing, the contract expires, and the house goes from “Pending Short Sale” to “Back on Market”. Maybe a few more of these then it disappears entirely, only to show up months or years later as “Bank Owned”.
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 13:49:08
Yes…this must tough on the FB wannabe sellers and their RE agents nerves. Good!!
The lenders, they couldn’t care less, especially 2nd lein holders. I believe that I even invited them to the closing party. It’s even one of my banks that holding up the sale.
My son toured this shack with his college professor when they were trying FSBO this shack and fishing for 279k in 2006. It’s okay and I was feeling generous and offered them 195k in a “moment of weakness” providing that they replaced the h20 softener.
FB’s are out of state now, house and property have been kept in immaculate condition by somebody but another long, hard Wisconsin is a’coming. You get virtually little or no information in a short sale offer. I only went after this place because I knew a little bit about it.
IMHO, they’ll be lucky as hell to snag 182-85k for it next Spring the way small town Wisconsin’s economies are going south. Makes no difference to me, I deserve a vacation after all these years and that’s hard to arange and do in Wisconsin winters with a stupid house.
They all have my phone number but I might be on a beach in SE Asia, munching on Jumbo shrimp in red wine sauce, watching the pretty girls. I will remember to send postcards to eveybody envolved in the deal if I go though.
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-09-11 16:02:02
Oh sorry Mikey, I guess my Mentalpause hit again. After doing financial statements starting at 3:30 this morning, I am burned out. Excuse me.
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 20:23:05
No problem…trying buying a house should always be Fun and an Adventure !!
Actually, earthquakes drive UP the cost of housing/rentals.. because the supply of houses has fallen while the demand has risen.. especially in the short term… just look at Katrina…
“Of the people who are buying homes, more than a third are investors, snapping up mostly foreclosure homes at bargain prices and turning them into rentals.”
Yep. Still waaaaaay too many infestors in the market. I sat next to one on the plane Thursday (I know- I always swear I’ll never fly again, but darn it I had to). He was an arrogant pigman who worked for Morgan Stanley. I conversed with him, nonetheless, as I was interested in hearing about his sty, and the slop he was feeding on. He was more than happy to talk about himself. Seems he and some “partners” were flipping in many markets, with Arizona being one of their main focuses. He was only making 2% cash on cash, and getting burned on a few properties. The market is still headed down.
He also mentioned, with glee I might add, that Morgan Stanley made $15 per barrel on the crude they took delivery of and parked out on the ocean last year. My pleasant smile hid my desire to open the emergency exit and toss him out- not only for the obvious reasons, but because he had quite a nauseating case of dandruff which was making me gag. For an investment banker, I was quite disappointed in his attire, too.
You could have jabbed him to death with a plastic fork, quietly disembarked and lied like the devil about where you sat in the plane when the cops and PTB asked.
Don’t say…”I didn’t have a plastic fork”. A ballpoint pen would have worked.
Thank you. My candidate of choice is NOTA until the quality of the average American is as good as six decades ago. It will take a few years of self-discipline (living below one’s means) to get there, and that will be forced upon us. America will become much stronger coming out of this drab gray sovietism.
How do we get NOTA (none of the above) on every ballot in country?
Voting NOTA sends a message that you took the time to come out and vote, but found the presented choices lacking in some way.
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Comment by bill in Los Angeles
2010-09-11 11:45:20
The powers that be are too scared to have it. Basically the NOTA would work this way: if NOTA gets more votes than any candidate, that office will be vacant until the next election. I prefer to just keep driving past the polling place since NOTA is not on my ballot. The non-choices we have are those who impose their religious morality on others and those who enjoy robbing from productive and giving to the non deserving.
Essentially my non vote is my NOTA.
Comment by Ol'Bubba
2010-09-11 14:00:07
I view it differently.
The candidate that gets the majority (or plurality) of the votes gets seated in office.
The NOTA tally serves notice to the candidates that they do not have “a mandate”. It lets the candidates know that the voters don’t think very much of them.
I recall one candidate won an election by something like 52% to 48% and he claimed he won a “mandate from the voters”.
You’re right when you say the powers that be will never let it happen.
This is from Milwaukee but you can bet that they are having these meetings and reports in cities all over America.
Banks report on foreclosed properties
City asked to hear plans to handle crisis
By Georgia Pabst of the Journal Sentinel
Sept. 11, 2010 |
Before an overflow committee room, representatives of the nation’s largest banks met with city officials and others Friday to explain what they are doing to deal with the foreclosure crisis that’s costing the city millions in lost tax revenue.
Since the crisis started, the city has lost about 8% of its housing stock and millions in lost tax revenues, said Art Dahlberg, commissioner of the Department of Neighborhood Services.
There are 5,000 vacant properties and 6,000 to 7,000 other properties in the process of foreclosure, he said. In addition to the lost revenue, he said, the city is stuck with the cost of maintaining and dealing with properties that are vacant, vandalized and magnets for crime.
Milwaukee, once formerly inhabited by German and Polish immigrants, is now 40% black (”african-american”). I would vacate, too. Whenever there is a proportion greater than about 15%, the city falls into decay. You just can’t support that much “entitlement”.
Do you have a link to a source that supports your statement, “whenever there is a proportion greater than about 15%, the city falls into decay.”
Taken at face value your statement sounds racist. Is that what you meant?
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Comment by nickpapageorgio
2010-09-11 10:53:06
Detroit.
Comment by Bill in Carolina
2010-09-11 11:30:52
Bubba, why don’t you refute Diogenes’ statement by offering up a couple of examples of cities where the 15% threshold HASN’T caused any decay.
Comment by Xiaoding
2010-09-11 12:57:22
“Taken at face value your statement sounds racist. Is that what you meant?
”
OOOH, the racism cop is here!! I’m so scared! Oh please, Mr. Racism cop, don’t call me…RACIST!!!
Comment by Ol'Bubba
2010-09-11 13:42:35
You’re also free to research this if you like, Bill.
Once we hit the ‘add comment’ button here we lose the ability to edit our comments. Sometimes what we mean to say and what we actually post are not the same.
It’s not my intention to refute his argument. I asked him for a source to support his statement to solidify his argument. I also asked him if he intended to make a racist argument because it sure sounded like one to me.
It’s called critical thinking. It involves listening, examining, and sometimes clarifying premises to determine if they support the argument’s conclusion, and if in fact they accurately reflect what the person meant to say.
So Bill, do you normally jump to researching a counter argument when you’re faced with an argument that fails to make its prima facie case?
On my good days I ask for clarification and ask the speaker if what he said is what he meant to say.
Atlanta is 30% African American. Please take your racism elsewhere. Cities fall into decline where there is a lack of middle class citizens, socioeconomic class is a much better predictor of urban problems.
Considering both Milwaukee and Detroit lost key job creating industries, it is no surprise the cities are in decline.
Comment by MDMORTGAGEGUY
2010-09-11 14:02:08
Let me add to Bill in Carolina’s comment. Not just city. Show me an example of one black country, city, county, town, neighborhood….that exemplifies a low crime, success model.
There isnt even an anecdotal local that you can come up with to finish this sentence..
“I know most black areas are crime ridden undesireable places but, look at _________”
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-09-11 14:22:23
Like I said where is Jesse and sharpton when katrina happened demanding jobs for those flooded out in the 9th ward????
Instead they had to import 15,000 illegals to do the work…they were desperate for help even at McD because few spoke spanish.
You will never solve the race and discrimination problem until we demand every American learns to read write and speak English.
How can anyone even think this is a racist statement? to damnnn the staus quo, and seriously educate all black people.
——————————
Bubba, why don’t you refute Diogenes’ statement by offering up a couple of examples of cities where the 15% threshold HASN’T caused any decay.
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-09-11 14:25:14
Jaded:
A quick search of google and you get the truth…its bad there
Atlanta is a bad example. It is a Federal Reserve money pot town. When you have a central bank, in conjunction with government that gives out loans to “minorities” and places racial quotas in hiring, and promotes imbeciles to government jobs with big salaries, it’s easy to pretend that these “middle class” people are contributing to the greater good. I think Atlanta needs just a little more time to go over the edge.
Take New Orleans. Remember. That was a “chocolate town”. and they wanted to keep it a “chocolate town”.
The 9th ward vacated and took their problems to Houston. Sorry for Houston. Now Houston is a crime-ridden cesspool. The “other” parts of New Orleans and all the Gulf Coast have re-built and are getting back to business as usual. No one in the media ever cried for the hard-working, devastated white folks. No, it was all George Bush’s fault, and racism, that the “minority” areas are still a disaster. Well, get to work and start cleaning up and fixing the place.
As for “sources”, that is the greatest sign of a lost mind. You can’t just look at what’s going on without a “study” to convince you that something else is really the root cause.
There’s plenty of “evidence” to look at. It’s just that because it may not be a pleasant view, we must find other reasons for the failures we witness. Most assuredly, it must be “white racism”. What else could it be??
It’s so sad how little some “Amuricans” know of the history of their country. Here’s a few examples of thriving black communities destroyed by jealous whites:
And, for a detailed example of how black communities were starved of resources from the middle of the 20th century by government policy that siphoned off resources and subsidized whites, see the award-winning book by Douglas Massey and Nancy Denton titled American Apartheid.
So, if you believe the specious claim that whenever blacks are more than 15% of the population communities fall apart, you have to make sense of why it is that when blacks have a thriving community, whites have historically rioted to destroy the community. Seems to me the second fact explains whatever truth the first fact might appear to have.
Not to say all whites are riotous in their hostility, but, really, blacks are only 15 percent of the population. If only 1 white person out of 5 holds a racist position, then there is about one racist white person for every black person in the nation. Faced with those numbers, it is easy to see how any black community that thrives can get destroyed by hostile whites, even though most whites are no longer hostile.
I know this is in part a statistical argument, which involves numbers and things so, Diogenes, I accept you will probably not understand. Yeah, math is hard. I know. I know. (patting Diogenes on his/her head).
It is sad how little “Amuricans” know about their history.
If you want to know what happens when blacks have a thriving community of their own, check out the wikipedia pages on Rosewood and Wilmington. These describe the white riots that destroyed thriving middle class black communities. I’d put in the links (and did in a previous post), but apparently that sends the post to some unknown place.
If you want to see how black families were systematically impoverished by government policies designed to subsidize white communities, check out the award-winning book by Douglas Massey and Nancy Denton titled American Apartheid.
If you believe the specious claim that whenever blacks are more than %15 percent of the population calamity follows, you have to explain why it is that whenever blacks dominate an environment and do so successfully, whites swoop in and destroy it. It would seem that the second fact would explain why you would never see a thriving black community, for it won’t be allowed to stand.
Of course, we know that most whites are not hostile to blacks. Yet, blacks are only 15% of the population. Even if only 1 out of every 4 whites is hostile to blacks, that’s about 1 hostile white person for every black person in the nation! Faced with that disparity, it is easy to see how much damage hostile whites can do to thriving black communities.
I know, I know, this is in part a statistical argument, and thus it depends on those pesky, hard to understand things, you know, numbers. I know its tough, and hard for many Americans to grasp (just look at the last 5 years of real estate).
There, there (patting Diogenes’ head), I’m sure your “its too hard to think” headache will pass.
Sorry for the double post, but I’ve usually been unable to get anything with a link to post, so I re-posted. Sorry for doubling.
Take care.
IAT
Comment by aNYCdj
2010-09-11 19:43:16
Maybe now you will understand why rap and hip hop was was cranked out in such volume….to me any KKK member would be laughing his azz off at how easy it was to keep those people “in their place”. Now you have thousands of radio stations movies all sorts of entertainment to glorify the ghetto gangsta rapper…
Most overt racism has died in America and what left, is based on, they now a have a personal choice to be be black or a ‘N’ and lots choose the latter.
It would seem that the second fact would explain why you would never see a thriving black community, for it won’t be allowed to stand.
Funny, your critique of rap is pretty much the standard line articulated by many members of the black middle class. Also funny that many young whites are embracing the same nihilistic music/lifestyle. Really stupid.
However, with respect to blacks, just because some idiots are unknowingly complicit in their own oppression (and thus partially at fault) doesn’t mean the oppressor is also not partially at fault. There’s more than enough blame to go around.
We say the same thing about the FBs. They are complicit in their own bankruptcy. No one here wants to let them off the hook, and no one here denies the role of others, such as Greenspan and Bernanke. There’s more than enough blame to go around there, too. It’s the same thing, in a way.
Sadly, in both cases (black oppression, destructive finance policy) only the heartless or brainless would deny that many truly innocent people (e.g., 5 year olds) got ground up in the process.
IAT
Comment by jaded
2010-09-11 21:05:11
When my parents were growing up there were middle class black communities. These days middle class (or higher) families choose not to move to predominantly black communities. Most likely because there aren’t many middle class onese left and/or have lives in suburbia. The middle class black people in their 20-40s are the first generation that didn’t have to grow up in segregated schools and have had different opportunities than their parent’s generation. The black middle class “flight” is a lot like the “white flight” a generation ago. The poorer families were left behind.
A general observation: the people who are more likely to claim the majority of black people are like those silly people on TV are the least likely to have any black friends in their circle. There are plenty of middle class black people, we just don’t live all together anymore.
Georgiagirl
Palmetto is right. The lesser of two evils hyberbole is such mental masb*rbation, it makes me want to blow a head gasket. Both parties aren’t addressing the reality, our fearless leaders, WS, and such, have spent the U.S. into BK. Remember, our govt is on the cash basis, and just think, there are over 78M aging Baby Boomers with retirement on the horizon. Add that to our current financial mess. This country is toast.
To add to your point, political churn is a good way to keep oligarchs and the czars who serve them from accumulating too much power. Better to keep a steady flow of outsiders who are not sure what they are doing assume the reins of power at each turn of the election cycle.
Idaho passed an initiative for legislative “term limits” years ago during the “term limits” boom. When everyone saw how it caused more problems than it solved, the legislature grew a pair and repealed it.
Idaho initiatives are not constitutional amendments but rather have the force of just a normal legislative statute.
“A foreclosure forced Donald Pennington Jr. to move out. But until Tuesday night, nothing and no one could force him to move on.
That’s when the man former neighbors described as “a nut” and “pure evil” was killed in the front yard of the southeast Dallas home that he never could seem to leave after he lost it in 1996. ”
I believe we’ll see a lot more of that odd behavior. It reminds me of the old black n’ white move:
“The Swimmer, the 1968 surrealist film based on a John Cheever story, makes hay of the phony glamour of swimming-pool culture. Burt Lancaster stars as an aging sexpot whose enviable life with his loving family has vanished. He’s had an affair, he’s bankrupt, and many of his friends have abandoned him. The film opens poolside, with Lancaster at a neighbors’ house, when he realizes that all of the pools in the neighborhood form a virtual chlorinated river that leads all the way to his house; he dubs it the Lucinda River, “in honor of my wife,” and whispers, peering deep into the middle distance, “I could swim home.” And he does, hopping from one pool to the next, conversing with increasingly hostile neighbors along the way, each interaction revealing another piece of the story of his tragic downfall. When he reaches his old, now-empty house, he pounds on the door and wails, then curls into a ball on the stoop and wails some more. It’s a scene so daringly preposterous, so amazingly overacted, you have to admire its chutzpah.”
Seems like an interesting movie, being that I am an avid swimmer and had a thing for pools from an early age. The chlorinated blueness is certainly a different world, where you are shut off from communication with other humans for a length of time, even when other humans are present. It is surreal in itself, like a dream, but with more awareness, and I get in that mode four hours or more per week. Been doing that for several decades now.
As a kid, I used to swim, snorkle and dive off of the southern end of Okinawa in the south China sea for endless hours. All day events as you’d lose track of time.
The only things you had to worry about was sunburn, big “fish”, sea snakes, currents and tides,…
There are so many houses in my ‘hood in Redington Beach that aren’t on the MLS, no action against the owner in public records, and nobody living in them or taking care of them.
I also learned that Tino Martinez is my neighbor — my wife was very disappointed that she had to explain to me who he is.
We’re renting a 3/2, 1,350 sq. ft. and I asked State Farm for a quote:
$2500 property
$1700 Flood
On top of $2700 in taxes…Our rent is $1,100/mo. There’s a decent 3/2 that sold recently for around $180k (maybe 1,800 sq. ft.), so prices are definitely down. On my side of the street, I am flanked by an abandoned property, the diagonal one is for sale, the one directly behind me is for sale / foreclosure and most likely a teardown. I’m starting to see some rats.
The great news is its very, very quiet and peaceful!
Red Beach
We’re in So Ca and looking to buy our final home w/cash. Homeowners Insurance, if you can find a co that *still insures Ca, is really pricy, and if the home is built before the late 70’s, and all the requirements could choke a horse. Earthquake Insurance has a 15% deductable based on the purchase price iirc, with all kinds of variables. Earthquake Insurance is insanely priced. But with our luck, if we don’t buy it,the house will fall down and go boom!
(*wild fires soured Ca market)
Interest observations in your post.
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Comment by combotechie
2010-09-11 08:10:29
“Earthquake insurance is insanely priced.”
I live in So Ca. Some observations:
Earthquakes happen but they only happen at the epicenter. It is when one lives close to the epicenter of an earthquake that he experiences major damage.
That’s not saying that earthquakes aren’t felt beyond the epicenter, only that the earthquake’s intensity rapidly drops off as one is distanced from the epicenter. The farther away from the epicenter the less damage from the earthquake.
Earthquakes happen along faultlines. They don’t happen anywhere else. If you live on a faultline then you should expect major damage - someday - from an earthquake. If you live far from a faultline then you should not all that much concerned about earthquakes.
One can easily prepare for an earthquake IF he is not living near a faultline. Where I live (far enough from a faultline not to be worried about earthquakes) it’s a small matter of making sure the water heater is firmly attached to the wall and a few other minor preparations.
And I don’t bother with earthquake insurance.
Comment by DennisN
2010-09-11 08:14:45
My house in San Jose was built in 1959, and it always shocked me how it was built with little thought to structural integrity. Basically a cage of 2×4’s with sheetrock on the inside and chicken wire/stucco on the outside. That’s right: no outside wood structural sheathing of any kind to take sheer loads. It did have the sill boards bolted to the foundations. I was surprised to emerge undamaged after the 1989 mag. 7 Loma Prieta earthquake.
A 5/8″ layer of OSB nailed on the outside of the cage doesn’t look like much but it really stiffens that cage.
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-09-11 08:23:08
combotechie
Great post and food for thought, but we lived in Ventura County in 1994, 24 miles away from the epicenter and on a hill. A block away from us, homes built on filled lots were tagged uninhabitable. Our neighborhood at the time was built in 1984. Earthquakes have minds of their own, imho. I guess the Natural Hazard Report is a must read, is my take away.
Comment by DennisN
2010-09-11 08:35:11
The key words here are “filled lots”. You can be a long distance away from the epicenter but if you are built on fill you are at risk. The earthquake will do a nice job of “compacting” that fill which isn’t so good for any building at that site. My house in San Jose was about 25 miles from the Loma Prieta epicenter but survived unscathed. Houses on fill in the Marina District - built on fill debris from the 1906 quake - were more like 80 miles from the epicenter but they all collapsed.
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-09-11 08:49:30
DennisN-
Interesting post. We’re paying cash for our toe tag, and this time, I am going to really read (not just a cursory read) the Natural Hazard Report, get information on the lot and area from the City Planning Dept, interview future neighbors, and leave no stone unturned. It’s been 16 years… another one is a’comin.
Comment by bill in Los Angeles
2010-09-11 09:10:22
Dennis, I think the geological terminology is “liquefaction,” applied to such places as the Marina district.
Comment by Diogenes (Tampa, Florida)
2010-09-11 09:10:32
Just for your general edification and consideration, 2 points:
1) Sandy soils display a characteristic known as “liquefaction” when subjected to earthquake (vibration) loads. Whether fill, or just natural formations, they don’t do too well under certain types of vibration. It results in the foundation basically having no support and leading to collapse.
2) Earthquake prone regions need ductility, no stiffness in buildings. Wood is more ductile than many building materials and will flex under stress. The exterior sheathing will increase the shear capacity, but i am uncertain if the “old” method isn’t just as good a product in an earthquake prone region. I suspect the stucco will crack, but the chicken wire probably holds the exterior face together while providing flexure.
After the event, just fill in the cracks with new stucco. It’s just a theory, but apparently, based on the evidence, the construction method is not bad. It wouldn’t work in Florida, however, since we have a different type of lateral loading.
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 09:54:02
“Earthquakes happen but they only happen at the epicenter.”
I trust that you did get that broad statement directly from God himself and it is carved in solid granite stable rock that goes to the center of the earth I hope !
Comment by DennisN
2010-09-11 10:19:25
Diogenes, I’m not a stuctural engineer, but…
If the low-frequency vibration of an earthquake is close to one of the normal modes of vibration of a building, it will feed that normal mode causing severe damage. IIUC adding sheathing raises the frequency of the normal modes of vibration of the building away from the frequencies encountered in earthquakes.
Comment by combotechie
2010-09-11 11:30:33
My remark about earthquakes happening only at the epicenter was for those who think an earthquake is something other than a localized event.
The EFFECT of an earthquake is not localized but the CAUSE of the event is. The earth’s plates are drifting and at the borders of these drifting plates there are places where the drifting gets hung up - places where the plates get stuck. Sooner or later the forces that move the plates overcome the place where the plates were hung up and then - wham - you get an earthquake.
Mountains grow as a result of earthquakes, or rather, earthquakes result as mountains are being grown.
Comment by combotechie
2010-09-11 11:40:15
There are folks that think the entire state of California will slide into the Pacific Ocean when “The Big One” hits.
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-09-11 12:26:47
combotechie
Thanks for the clarification. 1971 was my first,1994 was my second, and the next earthquake …201?
There’s only 1 small problem with combotechie’s position: We do not know where all the faults are. It is common for an earthquake to occur, and in the aftermath the analysts say, ohh, yeah, that’s a fault we did not know existed.
So, if you are in earthquake country, I do not think you can assume you are far from a fault just because there’s no map showing your house near a fault.
However, earthquake insurance is not really for the homeower, its for the bank. When you walk away (if you can walk) because the $50,000 deductible is beyond your ability to pay, the bank will scoop up the property, use its vast connections with the government to get whatever capital it needs, fix the house, and sell it to the next generation willing to risk life and limb in the earthquake zone. There, banks shored up, all is well in America!
IAT
Comment by rms
2010-09-11 20:08:48
“A 5/8″ layer of OSB nailed on the outside of the cage doesn’t look like much but it really stiffens that cage.”
Lots of older Southern California apartment buildings collapsed during the Northridge quake of ‘94 due to design faults resembling your discussion.
Holy heck, I’m paying about $800/year for property insurance here in Boise, and that’s a $1 million umbrella policy.
You appear to be on a sand bar down the west coast from Clearwater. If you get taken out by a hurricane, does the insurance company consider that “storm” damage or “flood” damage?
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Comment by Red Beach
2010-09-11 08:33:46
“If you get taken out by a hurricane, does the insurance company consider that “storm” damage or “flood” damage?”
This very question is how lawyers and insurance companies skim millions from Floridians. But to answer your question:
surge = flood
wind = homeowners
Right?
Comment by Diogenes (Tampa, Florida)
2010-09-11 09:01:44
Almost right. The “flood” is FEMA and is a Federal Program.
The “wind” is through a State-run program in every State where wind is an issue. It is a rider to the “homeowners” policy. The Insurance companies basically cover content. The other two pools pay for damages to the property.
That is why in Florida, and other hurricane prone regions we got “codes” to protect the building envelope to prevent breakage of windows and doors and damage to the roof. The insurance companies were all refusing to provide coverage, because the contents were being destroyed and they had to pay out big time.
Comment by In Colorado
2010-09-11 12:33:46
“Holy heck, I’m paying about $800/year for property insurance here in Boise, and that’s a $1 million umbrella policy.”
Me too. Isn’t flyover country great? Everytime I read about people paying $8000 year for property taxes on a 1200 sq ft house, or $600 a month for utilites I can only shake my head.
Wow. I’m amazed at how much property insurance has risen in Pinellas over the past several years.
I think I paid about $600 per year for property insurance around 8-12 years ago for a 1400 sqft house in Clearwater. I was on high ground so I wasn’t required to have flood insurance.
Your post prompted me to look at some asking prices in the 33764 zip code. Many of the prices are back down to 2002 levels.
We’re a lot like a family. We bicker, laugh at each other, share our joys and disappointments. And we mourn our losses. We just don’t agree on everything.
wolfgirl
So beautifully expressed. Thank you.
I might add, we learn from each other, and when we’re wrong on a fact, a smarty will correct us, usually gently.
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Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 11:47:15
I never really argue either, because we’re all warm, fuzzy cuddly little friends in here…Plus Ben might stomp me.
(he he he chuckles evil mikey, quietly plotting his Revenge and Patiently adding another name to his Enemies Hit List)
Comment by awaiting wipeout
2010-09-11 12:35:00
Mikey
You are a little devil, stiring up trouble again? But we love ya anyway.
Mikey bought a house.
Mikey bought a house.
It was a good buy.
Hooray for Mikey!
(Ok, I wiped the green off my face. My day will come too.)
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 15:54:21
awaiting wipeout,
Settle down now…I know that you want a Wisconsin Johnsonville Brat n’ Beer Party, Spotted Cow beer and squeaky cheese sticks at the fancy pool up the street next summer but…
If the All the little various evil banksters elves DON’T approve this deal and ALLOW the FB’s to sell me this silly house by Monday night, then I haven’t bought a thing.
“if you’re not prepared to fight, don’t talk politics.. or religion.. or finance.. or.. Well.. it might be best to keep all your opinions to yourself.”
That`s good advise. In real life fights were never a problem for me. But do I ever get my azz kicked on this damn computer.
I don’t understand this “share losses” business. Is the FDIC covering losses or isn’t it?
WASHINGTON – Regulators on Friday shut down a small Florida bank, bringing to 119 the number of U.S. bank failures this year amid mounting loan defaults.
The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. took over Horizon Bank, based in Bradenton, Fla., with $187.8 million in assets and $164.6 million in deposits. Bank of the Ozarks, based in Little Rock, Ark., agreed to assume the assets and deposits of the failed bank.
In addition, the FDIC and Bank of the Ozarks agreed to share losses on $150.4 million of Horizon Bank’s loans and other assets.
Lets say you agree to take take over this bank, lock stock and barrel, and it’s you who has to collect on that failed bank’s mortgages.
Well, you’re kinda worried that people won’t pay and you’ll lose money. Why should you take the risk? You don’t really need the headaches.
But the FDIC really really wants you (or someone) to take this stuff so they offer to share some percentage (maybe 80%) of the losses IF people default on the debts. They will share the loss with you… IF…
Thanks Wipeout! I’ve been reading HBB for years and rarely comment. This bad economy has affected me, my family and friends and we need to get rid of the fat cats in Washington. They are the ruling class and we are the peasants. I’d like to throw all of them out! I’m ready for the economy to go down and correct itself. I’ll just grow my own food and survive by my own wits. Maybe then buying a home will be a good idea. I’m happy to be renting.
Georgiagirl
Yeah, we’ve been hit big time too. Intel’s outsourcing changed our lives, and not for the better. We are paying rents too.
When we finally get our toe tag house, I’m growing a garden, and planting some fruit trees. Not only will we save lots of dough, we’ll know what’s in our food. Chemical balls don’t appeal to me.
Your state is beautiful and for the most part, the people are really good and decent. I call it God’s country, because the trees are something else.
Again, welcome aboard. Thanks for dipping your toes into HBB lake. See, it’s warm in here.
I doubt that Americans will start blowing money just because another crook got elected. Give me a break
Deleveraging Looks Like: Consumer Spending Declines Again In August What
This year, consumers — particularly upper-income Americans — started to spend again in May. However, the spending spurt was short-lived, with August spending returning to 2009 levels among both upper-income and middle-/lower-income consumers. In a sense, the current direction of consumer spending seems to be just the reverse of spending during this time a year ago.
This year’s somewhat disappointing back-to-school spending has been followed by few added expenditures for Labor Day. Consumer spending for the week before Labor Day averaged $61 per day — the same as during the prior week, and down from a $70 average during the same week in 2009.
Spending prospects for the next couple of months do not look much better, with Americans peppered by economic pessimism as the midterm elections approach. Many Republicans are talking about a lack of economic improvement. And the president is promoting new efforts to get the weak economy going. Neither party seems to hold out much hope for a significantly better jobs outlook or a surge in economic growth anytime soon.
On the other hand, no matter what happens in the elections, Americans could go on a post-election holiday spending spree. It just may be that a newly elected Congress could create some sorely missing economic optimism about the outlook for 2011.
I stayed home over the Labor Day weekend and didn’t spend a dime except for the usual weekly grocery shopping. I’m happy to have participated in the non-bailout of the retail and travel sectors!
* OPINION
* SEPTEMBER 10, 2010
From Zombie Banks to Zombie Mortgages?
Japan misallocated capital during its lost decade. How the U.S. can avoid its mistakes.
…
The U.S. shouldn’t be smug. Prolonged economic distress could undermine the attitudes responsible for U.S. economic dynamism. For example, the political winds are shifting against immigration even as labor-force growth slows because of an aging population and the leveling out of women’s participation in the work force. The crisis has demonstrated that too much U.S. wealth is tied up in houses. The mortgages that financed them now clog financial institutions’ balance sheets, starving new businesses of credit, much as Japanese banks kept lending to “zombie” companies at the expense of more promising firms. The U.S. risks perpetuating this misallocation of capital by maintaining extensive federal support for mortgages.
…
THE American economy is once again tilting toward danger. Despite an aggressive regimen of treatments from the conventional to the exotic — more than $800 billion in federal spending, and trillions of dollars worth of credit from the Federal Reserve — fears of a second recession are growing, along with worries that the country may face several more years of lean prospects.
On Friday, Ben Bernanke, chairman of the Fed, speaking in the measured tones of a man whose word choices can cause billions of dollars to move, acknowledged that the economy was weaker than hoped, while promising to consider new policies to invigorate it, should conditions worsen.
Yet even as vital signs weaken — plunging home sales, a bleak job market and, on Friday, confirmation that the quarterly rate of economic growth had slowed, to 1.6 percent — a sense has taken hold that government policy makers cannot deliver meaningful intervention. That is because nearly any proposed curative could risk adding to the national debt — a political nonstarter. The situation has left American fortunes pinned to an uncertain remedy: hoping that things somehow get better.
…
Oh, if you haven’t got the TRUE picture of the jobs market it’s no fault of yours. The BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics) phonied the jobs picture the week by estimating the data from 9 states including California. They claimed that the short labor day week impaired their data. It’s ALL phony and I don’t believe any of it, especially if Turbo Tax Timmy has any thing to do with the data.
you, my friend, have the correct information. it’s all been rigged to the upside. after the drones buy into the “cheap” stocks and the market gets a boost, then the “revised” data will be released, saying that the numbers of unemployed were greater than expected. By then, the big money will have sold out to the working man.
Get Ready, We’re Going To Cut Taxes, Increase Spending, And Blow Out The Deficit
The Bush tax cut debate isn’t Obama winning and Republicans losing, but rather a compromise where everyone gets to keep their tax cuts.
In the event of that compromise, the Democrats are likely to get a lot of their new fiscal stimulus measures passed, including new infrastructure spending, in an effort to balance out what might otherwise be perceived as a Republican victory.
This way, Democrats can say they cut middle class taxes and put American laborers back to work on infrastructure projects. Republicans can say they got everyone tax breaks, including the more wealthy elements of the party, and blame the President for the increased spending.
In this scenario, the only loser is the deficit, which will increase as a result of all the new fiscal stimulus.
Here’s Who To Invest In If The GOP Wins Big In November
Let’s say the Republicans take everything in November, what will it mean for your portfolio? This is an easy call to make. Expect a dramatic roll back of the leftward policies the country has adopted over the last two years, and a sudden revival of the industries that have suffered as a result. In fact, if you look at the charts below, many of the stocks I am suggesting have already started to discount a conservative win.
Big oil companies will be huge winners. American oil imports from the Middle East will accelerate, where the industry earns 80% of its profits. That will bring peak oil sooner, easily taking crude over $100/barrel quickly, and eventually to $150 or $200. Restrictions on both onshore and offshore drilling will get rolled back to their Bush era laissez faire levels, cutting costs and boosting profitability. You want to own Chevron (CVX), ExxonMobile (XOM), Conoco Phillips (COP), and of course, BP (BP). The drilling and service companies, like Transocean (RIG) and Diamond Offshore (DO), should do spectacularly well.
I don’t think it makes any difference who is Congress. Oil and other natural resources are becoming more scarce and their prices will go up.
Over-indebtedness, and monetary policy of the central banks just about assure this.
Unless the world economy takes a nose-dive, then gas and petroleum products will be in demand and the big suppliers will be making money.
If there are restrictions, it won’t cut into profits, it will simply mean that we, the consumer, will pay a higher price.
I expect all consumer related products to go up in price and all “asset” related products to go down, that includes real estate.
Yeah I think oil industry stocks will do well regardless.
Problem is, stock investing is for the long term - at least ten years. Seemingly, partisan politics is getting more in the anger stage and I fear radical regime changes every eight years. The investing climate loves stability in policies and many businesses cannot survive without long term assurance. That is probably why every big corporation has powerful lobbyists and even people inside government. Hence Hank Paulson, TTT, and co on from Government Sux.
Barack Obama is no fool. He is not incompetent. To the contrary, he is brilliant. He knows exactly what he’s doing. He is purposely overwhelming the U.S. economy to create systemic failure, economic crisis and social chaos — thereby destroying capitalism and our country from within.
Barack Obama is my college classmate ( Columbia University , class of ‘83). As Glenn Beck correctly predicted from day one, Obama is following the plan of Cloward & Piven, two professors at Columbia University . They outlined a plan to socialize America by overwhelming the system with government spending and entitlement demands. Add up the clues below. Taken individually they’re alarming. Taken as a whole, it is a brilliant, Machiavellian game plan to turn the United States into a socialist/Marxist state with a permanent majority that desperately needs government for survival … and can be counted on to always vote for bigger government. Why not? They have no responsibility to pay for it.
– Universal health care. The health care bill had very little to do with health care. It had everything to do with unionizing millions of hospital and health care workers, as well as adding 15,000 to 20,000 new IRS agents (who will join government employee unions). Obama doesn’t care that giving free health care to 30 million Americans will add trillions to the national debt. What he does care about is that it cements the dependence of those 30 million voters to Democrats and big government. Who but a socialist revolutionary would pass this reckless spending bill in the middle of a depression?
– Cap and trade. Like health care legislation having nothing to do with health care, cap and trade has nothing to do with global warming. It has everything to do with redistribution of income, government control of the economy and a criminal payoff to Obama’s biggest contributors. Those powerful and wealthy unions and contributors (like GE, which owns NBC, MSNBC and CNBC) can then be counted on to support everything Obama wants. They will kick-back hundreds of millions of dollars in contributions to Obama and the Democratic Party to keep them in power. The bonus is that all the new taxes on Americans with bigger cars, bigger homes and businesses helps Obama “spread the wealth around.”
– Make Puerto Rico a state. Why? Who’s asking for a 51st state? Who’s asking for millions of new welfare recipients and government entitlement addicts in the middle of a depression? Certainly not American taxpayers. But this has been Obama’s plan all along. His goal is to add two new Democrat senators, five Democrat congressman and a million loyal Democratic voters who are dependent on big government.
– Legalize 12 million illegal immigrants. Just giving these 12 million potential new citizens free health care alone could overwhelm the system and bankrupt America . But it adds 12 million reliable new Democrat voters who can be counted on to support big government. Add another few trillion dollars in welfare, aid to dependent children, food stamps, free medical, education, tax credits for the poor, and eventually Social Security.
– Stimulus and bailouts. Where did all that money go? It went to Democrat contributors, organizations (ACORN), and unions — including billions of dollars to save or create jobs of government employees across the country. It went to save GM and Chrysler so that their employees could keep paying union dues. It went to AIG so that Goldman Sachs could be bailed out (after giving Obama almost $1 million in contributions). A staggering $125 billion went to teachers (thereby protecting their union dues). All those public employees will vote loyally Democrat to protect their bloated salaries and pensions that are bankrupting America . The country goes broke, future generations face a bleak future, but Obama, the Democrat Party, government, and the unions grow more powerful. The ends justify the means.
– Raise taxes on small business owners, high-income earners, and job creators. Put the entire burden on only the top 20 percent of taxpayers, redistribute the income, punish success, and reward those who did nothing to deserve it (except vote for Obama). Reagan wanted to dramatically cut taxes in order to starve the government. Obama wants to dramatically raise taxes to starve his political opposition.
With the acts outlined above, Obama and his regime have created a vast and rapidly expanding constituency of voters dependent on big government; a vast privileged class of public employees who work for big government; and a government dedicated to destroying capitalism and installing themselves as socialist rulers by overwhelming the system.
Add it up and you’ve got the perfect Marxist scheme — all devised by my Columbia University college classmate Barack Obama using the Cloward and Piven Plan.
Not buying it. Obama is as brilliant as Larry Summers is. Just saying it doesn’t make it so. I think he’s bookish smart but lacks the street smart and gritty leadership so he comes off as incompetent. Is anyone surprised at all that he follows left’s play book? It was Bush who was truly stupid. It was Bush who bailed out the democratic operatives in Wallstreet to the detriment of his own base.
It was Bush who bailed out the democratic operatives in Wallstreet to the detriment of his own base.
That’s another lie that needs to stop. I agree that Bush was and is an idiot. Many of us were disappointed to find that he was a bigger spender than prior Democrats. He wanted to join hands. In years 5 and 6, we had hoped that the Republicans would pull in the reigns.
They didn’t do much, so we BOOTED them out. We couldn’t see the difference between R and D, so it was the only we to send the message. However, and here’s the big however, it was a DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS that gave all the bank money away.
IF you go back and check, it was a party-line vote and the Dem’s voted FOR the TARP.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying, and in fact you are saying the Dem’s did this and BUSH betrayed us. If that is so, you are correct.
What I usually hear is that BUSH proposed and pushed the Bailout through the Congress and it was the REPs that did the deed.
ALL the wasted money has been the Dem’s spending as much as they can for the benefit of their cronies.
TARP was corporate welfare deliverd to the corporatists by the GOP elite of Bush, Paulson, et al.
Sept 19, 2008 Paulson yell fire in a crowded theater and requested 700 billion *specifically* to buy worthless mortgage paper from the very banks that profited from the Great Housing Fraud via George Bushes “Low Down Payment Act” and “No Down Payment Act”. Had these two corporate welfare laws not been written by Bush, there would be no housing bubble or TARP.
The last time we had a corporatist 8 year presidency, we ended up with the S&L debacle.
Why is it that corporatists are always running the show when these housing finance related debacles occur? Why?
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Comment by Sammy Schadenfreude
2010-09-11 17:20:10
Exeter,
You seem to be blind in the left eye. Yes, Bush was a dolt who was stage-managed by the neo-cons and the corporatists. Obama can speak a coherent sentence (no small thanks to his teleprompter) and he’s successfully resisted - so far - the neo-con chickenhawks’ shrill demands for WWIII. But he’s every bit as beholden to the corporatists as Bush was.
Good story, but totally implausible. If Obama were as brilliant as asserted, why would he surround himself with so many brilliant rivals who could potentially stand in his way?
I will give you that he is a lot smarter than W, Palin, etc…particularly to start out with a large stable of smart advisers.
I agree with you W and Palin were and are intellectually lazy. Honestly though did Bush have dumber advisers than Obama? I don’t think so. They all come from the same Ivy league with a different ideological bent. I never found Larry Summers to be that brilliant although Media keeps on telling me he is “always brilliant.” Then again I don’t know Larry’s IQ and I try to look at the results produced by his decisions and actions. With that I must say Larry Summers and Geithner both are pretty thick headed.
“always brilliant” …”pretty thick headed”
There is no inherent contradiction between brilliance and thick-headedness; in fact, there may even be a causal link, as those who go through life being right about almost everything naturally develop a level of self-confidence that veers into the realm of irrational certainty about the correctness of their perceptions. This makes them easily fooled by randomness.
Over the course of history, there have been many instances where brilliant people were spectacularly wrong about the financial situation. For one historical example, consider Irving Fisher:
“It appears the stock market has achieved a permanently high plateau,” he noted, around the time of the Great Stock Market Crash of 1929 and the onset of the Great Depression.
For a second, consider Sir Isaac Newton, inventor of the calculus, and father of the Newtonian paradigm, who managed to lose his personal fortune by catching himself a falling knife during the collapse phase of the South Sea Bubble:
“I can calculate the movement of the stars, but not the madness of men,” he lamented in the aftermath.
Try not to catch yerself a falling knife.
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Comment by joeyinCalif
2010-09-11 15:55:29
“America is the most grandiose experiment the world has seen, but, I am afraid, it is not going to be a success.” — Sigmund Freud
“I agree with you W and Palin were and are intellectually lazy. Honestly though did Bush have dumber advisers than Obama? I don’t think so”
“I don’t THINK so” !?! Oh….That figures about right…
18 low-life common CRIMINALS and THUGS from Saudia Arabia and 1 from United Arab Emirates with a few plane tickets, some box cutters, hijack our jets and whack the World Trade Center and kill 3k plus. Notice the word Criminals.
Previously, Cheney and the Big Oil gang are caught seriously studying and going over old Saddams Iraqi National Petroleum Companys projection figures in the old Exective Building basement for reserves and current contacts.
Meanwhile, the Neocons, those lovable certified lunatics from the Iraqi National Congress and other associated Idiots across the street and around town are demanding Bush to avenge the huge and dirty Poppy’s Bush face masonic at the footsteps of a Baghdad Hotel…for reasons and designs …all of their own.
From over at the Pentagon, Rummy is chomping at the bit to attack and destroy 1/2 of the known world and imprison the rest. He figures…somebody HAS to die.
Whilst at the Justice Department and the think tanks…
Yeah right….advisors
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Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 17:02:36
Ooops…did I mention Condi “Supertanker” Rice and the Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith, Richard Perle and the Faux News mischief makers ?
Advisors my A$$
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 17:08:41
Did I mention my old lunatic Lt., a retired general that held the title of National Director and Deputy National Security Advisor for combating terrorism.
Yeah, he wasn’t crazy enough for that White House, so they shipped him over to Faux News and the INC.
Advisors
Comment by joeyinCalif
2010-09-11 18:16:35
What about Rove?
word is he’s still running the country.
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 20:17:29
Good Lord, did I miss Karl and Scooter ?
Thanks joey.
Needless to say, the entire Bush White House and their associates were all Criminally Insane with their Axis of Evil wet dreams and BS…Or …Were they ?
Of course this was also a very well planned distraction for it allow small time crooks from Main Street to Wall Street to Rape and Pillage the land while everyone else was all tangled up in duct tape, plastic and looking for WMD’s under their beds.
May those Freedom Fries Wave Forever…From Sea to Shinning Sea.
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 20:38:48
America…you’ve BEEN had…Again.
(BigTime)
Nuff said…
Comment by mikey
2010-09-11 20:43:11
Ooops…(just plays the plays the music from “The Sting”)
By this logic, Ronald Reagan was a raging Marxist! It was Ronald Reagan that first expanded deficits into the 100 billion dollar range, after articulating a philosophy of supply side economics. Afterward, David Stockman said they realized they could kill the FDR safety net by so indebting the country nothing could be done. Now you say just the opposite; create so much debt that something MUST be done. Problem is, if the government has no capacity to do anything (e.g., it can’t pay the social workers, medical doctors, and so forth), then, all the desire in the world to do something won’t much matter.
The people of Iceland are demanding accountability for their “leaders” who allowed the plutocrats to collapse their banking system. What a concept - compare their anger and activism to their zombified American counterparts, who are too busy watching American Idol and stuffing themselves on Doritos to get seriously riled up about Wall Street’s screw job on the rest of the country.
Also, we know we live in a truly classless society, because any of us ** could easily become the next Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, or sports star earning the megabucks.
** Actual chances of this happening to you personally are pretty low, but keeping the hope alive is critical to protecting the rich as a class.
—
C’mon! We’re Americans! We know that the rich are morally superior to the rest of us and we deserve whatever they do to us.
..** Actual chances of this happening to you personally are pretty low..
7.8 Million millionaires in the USA in 2009.
305 million population (2009)
So the chances are.. about 1 in 40?
You may as well keep buying those lottery tickets… the odds are so much better.
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Comment by joeyinCalif
2010-09-11 16:45:59
i think i screwed that up..
305 million population counted everyone.. babies, etc. There were 75M children under age 17 in ‘09. They are not competing for the big money, so we gotta subtract them.
Figure 230 million working people, so the odds are better than 1 in 30 of someone becoming a millionaire..
Comment by In Colorado
2010-09-11 17:30:11
How many of those people were born into rich families and inherited the family biz?
Comment by joeyinCalif
2010-09-12 04:18:48
i’d guess that 90% of them have neither the desire to work as hard as Dad, nor have even a fraction of his skills, experience, creativity, stamina and the drive he had, nor do they really know anything about making or preserving money.. Probably have no love for the business itself (love is required)… and they destroy the business while pissing away the family fortune. If not them, then the next generation, or the next.
So, that money is eventually up for grabs.
Wait, Bill Gates & Warren Buffet have got only a lousy $1 million each? Is that what you’re saying, Joey/Eddie?
Try again. How many people here will go from working-schmoe to Bill-Gates type richness vs how many will dream of the same?
—
Figure 230 million working people, so the odds are better than 1 in 30 of someone becoming a millionaire..
Comment by joeyinCalif
2010-09-12 12:00:13
I see we need to readjust the numbers.
I’ll estimate there are at least 100 million people like Nudge who don’t believe it’s possible to get rich. They will never try, and may as well be removed from the pool of competition.
So..
230 - 100 = 130
130 million potential candidates. 7.8 million millionaires.
The odds of becoming a millionaire have fallen to about 1 in 17.
“REYKJAVIK, Iceland – A committee of Icelandic lawmakers split Saturday over whether to recommend an unprecedented prosecution of former leaders for failing to prevent the country’s financial meltdown.”
Let’s just hope this represents the lead for the rest of the world’s aggrieved populaces who were the victims of high crimes and felonies committed by those in control of the financial system (you know who I mean: The folks who could see nothing coming).
Yeah, “We the People” installed these con men in office and tolerated their malfeasance. And millions of “we the people” were in on the fraud, signing their names on mortgages they couldn’t afford out of a greed-fueled sense of entitlement.
Messrs. Sherkhan Farnood and Khalilullah Frozi — the top executives at Afghanistan’s largest banking institution, Kabul Bank — were fired from their jobs last week by the leaders of the nation’s central bank when a run on their bank threatened its continued existence.
Kabul Bank apparently has accumulated losses in excess of $300 billion. Which, of course, leaves it as solvent as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Though we have no report that the Afghanistan central bank leader is named either Abuben Behrnanki or Hafizullah Pahlson, Kabul Bank is now in the “too big to fail” category.
…
‘Too Big To Fail’ banks will be subject to harsher capital requirements than their less systemically important peers under the new rules on capital ratios set to be agreed this weekend.
By Harry Wilson, Financial Services Correspondent
Published: 9:01AM BST 09 Sep 2010
…
A crackdown on reckless mortgage lenders by the Federal Housing Administration has failed to root out several executives with criminal records whose firms continue to do business with the agency in violation of federal law, according to government documents, court records and interviews.
The get-tough campaign has also been hamstrung because, even when the FHA can ban mortgage companies for wrongdoing or an excessive default rate, the agency does not have the legal power to stop their executives from landing jobs at other lenders, or open new firms.
After the collapse of the home loan market, the FHA launched an effort aimed at reducing losses on mortgages it insures by weeding reckless lenders out of the program.
But documents and interviews reveal that more than 34,000 home loans have been issued over the past two years by a dozen FHA-approved lenders that have employed people who were convicted of felonies, banned from the securities industry or previously worked for firms barred by the agency.
More than 3,000 of those loans, about 9 percent, were seriously delinquent or already a claim on the FHA insurance fund as of June 30. That’s nearly triple the rate for all loans made by FHA lenders over the past two years, about 3.4 million.
Compared with other regulators, critics of the FHA say it rarely cracks down on company executives. “In the securities industry, you bar people for life. You don’t see that a lot with the FHA,” says Mark Calabria, director for financial regulation studies at the Cato Institute.
…
Will the old purpose of central banking come back soon, that of “leaning against the wind,” or taking away the punch bowl before the party gets out of control, rather than constantly respiking the punch bowl the morning after a night of bubblelicious debauchery, to provide stimulus for a “hair of the dog” hangover cure?
Swiss summit will shape future of banking industry
By Howard Schneider
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, September 11, 2010
The coterie of central bankers and government regulators gathering in the small Swiss city of Basel this weekend doesn’t know whether you’ll need to buy a car next year or borrow money to run a business.
But the new rules they have written over the last few months may well determine whether those loans can be made, how much they will cost - and perhaps how quickly the economy overall will expand.
…
“If you are in a period of rising house prices and people feel wealth and want a loan and to participate in a boom and suddenly the regulator says, oops, this is above-average growth and we need to put a stamp on it - that is not the way to win first prize in a popularity contest,” said Bernhard Speyer, head of banking and financial regulation for Deutsche Bank.
…
- No double dip means interest rates will soon start climbing back towards normal levels, potentially popping the bond bubble, knocking up mortgage rates, and leading to the next substantial leg down in U.S. housing prices.
World markets rise as double-dip fears ease
By CARLO PIOVANO (AP) – 5 days ago
LONDON — World stock markets advanced modestly Monday as investors rode momentum from Friday, when an upbeat U.S. jobs report eased fears that the global economy could slip back into recession.
With Wall Street closed for a holiday, however, trading was expected to remain light.
Markets took heart after official data last week showed private employers in the U.S. added 67,000 jobs in August, more than analysts expected.
The figure bolstered optimism that the U.S. will maintain a slow but steady recovery from last year’s recession and avoid another economic contraction later this year.
By mid-afternoon in Europe, Britain’s FTSE 100 index was up 0.3 percent at 5,446.17, Germany’s DAX was 0.3 percent higher at 6,153.31 and France’s CAC-40 was up 0.3 percent at 3,684.20. Asian indexes closed higher and trading on Wall Street was to remain shut for Labor Day weekend after closing higher on Friday.
With most major governments reining in economic stimulus measures and many pushing through austerity spending cuts to reduce deficits, investors worry the global economy would be pushed into a double dip recession, particularly as the U.S. slows down quickly.
Because the U.S. economy is the world’s largest and consumer spending there accounts for a fifth of global economic activity, the stronger-than-expected jobs data on Friday helped calm investors’ frayed nerves after weeks of worrying indicators.
“The renewed flight to safety we have witnessed over the past month is overdone and risks an equally large reversal when the worries over a double dip subside,” analysts from Rabobank said in a report.
…
Afghanistan’s troubled bank
House of Karzai
A bank run exposes more murky financial and political dealings
Sep 9th 2010 | Kabul
PALM JUMEIRAH, the giant palm-shaped peninsula in the Persian Gulf, is famous for its luxury homes. In Kabul one frond is known as Little Afghanistan because so many of the country’s political and business elite have set up there. Mahmoud Karzai, a brother of the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, is a prominent figure there. Luckily for him, he had help paying for it. As with other luminaries, the bill was picked up by ordinary Afghans who put money into Kabul Bank, a scandal-wracked institution of which the brother is the third-biggest shareholder.
…
According to my esteemed colleague Gideon Rachman, economists should be swept off their thrones by historians. Economists have had far too strong a stranglehold on the levers of power, he claims. They think they are scientists. They think they can foretell the future. They are wrong: “pseudo-scientists”, “peddling brash certainties”. Historians such as Gideon and Professor Niall Ferguson, hitherto relegated to backwaters such as the FT’s op-ed page, should at last be paid a bit of attention.
In pondering how to respond, I suffered an acute shortage of brash certainty. Gideon is quite right about the importance of history. When it comes to economics, however, the chief source of brash certainties appears to be Gideon, who wouldn’t know an economic model if it paraded down a catwalk at him.
I know as little about history as Gideon knows about economics, but no doubt he is right to suggest that an important role of the historian is to emphasise the knotty particularity of time and place, and the difficulty of producing sweeping scientific laws that accurately describe a complex social world. Economists, sociologists, psychologists and anthropologists should appreciate this just as keenly. The best do. Many do not and, sadly, they are over-represented in the media. Perhaps this is the reason Gideon misunderstands the task and the methods of economics.
Gideon Rachman responds:
In his spirited and learned defence of his beloved economists, Tim Harford makes a mistake that is a characteristic of the profession that we both really belong to – journalism. That mistake is to rest too much of his argument on a couple of anecdotes. The story about the collapse of the Kemper Arena is indeed delightful. The implication Tim seems to draw is that the laws of physics and engineering are no more reliable than the “laws” of economics. They are all just hypotheses, which are gradually improved by trial-and-error in the real world. But it is my perhaps lazy impression, that the hard sciences have established a body of settled, scientifically-testable knowledge that economics simply cannot lay claim to. Is Tim really saying that ain’t so?
Tim also admits that macroeconomic models have proved “useless” at forecasting but suggests that this is a minor matter, since few academic economists “even bother to try”. But the starting point for my piece was Joseph Stiglitz’s suggestion that “the failure of much of the economics profession to see the crisis coming should be a cause of great concern.” And Professor Stiglitz is a winner of the Bank of Sweden prize for economics – sometimes referred to as the Nobel prize.
He argues that while economic edifices are always collapsing, “buildings constructed according to the laws of physics seem to stand”. This is an odd statement. Buildings constructed according to the laws of physics have a habit of falling down. Henry Petroski, engineer and author of Success through Failure, observes that structural engineers tend to learn by constructing ever more ambitious structures. When one of them falls down or wobbles, engineers figure out what was wrong with their models. Sometimes the results are tragic: when the innovative Malpasset dam cracked thanks to inadequate geological modelling, nearly 400 people died. Sometimes they are delicious: the award-winning Kemper Arena collapsed, with no loss of life, just 24 hours after hosting the American Institute of Architects Convention. From his riverside eyrie, I think Gideon can just see the famous wobbly bridge across the Thames. Is this really a damning indictment of the laws of physics?
…
Google “Teton dam” if you want to see what happens when math models are used beyond their limits….
I got my MA in applied math back in 1977. Much of the coursework was left-over physics classes but I did study math modeling as applied to things like highway design. The problem as I see it is that many other forms of human endevour have what I call “physics envy”. They would like to have a simple set of equations which would give them the ability to predict the future. Unfortunately subjects such as economics are sufficiently complicated that any attempts to make math models involve simplifications that render the models full of errors. I recall from microecon class that the text simply assumed that the curves had a derivative everywhere - what mathematicians call “analytic functions”. And yet this is a simply enormous simplifying assumption. Many of the interesting phenomina in physics happen when functions are not analytic: points of singularity e.g. black holes. I am uneducated in modern macroeconomic theory but am predisposed to think that there are sufficient simplifying assumptions in their models that they are rendered almost useless.
All eyes are on Basel as bank regulators enter the final stretch in the quest to create new global capital standards. This Sunday the world’s central bankers and heads of bank supervision meet to finalise a key element of the package: the level of the minimum capital ratios. It is an opportunity to redeem the Basel Committee for its unwise earlier concessions to the banking industry and to present leaders at the forthcoming G20 summit in Seoul with a stringent proposal.
The new ratios have yet to be definitively pinned down, but reports suggest regulators are beginning to converge around a minimum core tier one capital ratio – the ratio of equity and retained earnings to risk-weighted assets – of five per cent. An additional buffer of 2 per cent to 3 per cent, which if breached by banks could restrict dividend pay-outs or bonuses, also seems likely. A further countercyclical buffer may be introduced, as well as a surcharge of 1 or 2 per cent of risk-weighted assets for banks deemed “systemically important”.
These would be a big improvement over the current minimum ratio of 2 per cent – and that on a more permissive definition of core tier one. Some will still see the new ratios as too low. But any level of capital can conceivably be too low if losses are big enough. This is why tier one ratios are only a piece of the puzzle and must be supplemented by schemes forcing haircuts on creditors when shareholders have been wiped out.
…
Companies could face sharply higher costs for short-term borrowing, including revolving credit and commercial paper, under the banking reform package being finalised by global regulators meeting this weekend in Basel.
The comprehensive capital and liquidity package – known as Basel III – is designed to make banks safer and more resilient and avoid more taxpayer-funded rescues.
Among the provisions are the widely supported “liquidity coverage ratio” which requires banks to hold enough cash and easy-to-sell assets to get through a 30 day crisis.
But bankers and companies are warning that a specific part of that rule could make corporate overdraft facilities and the $200bn commercial paper market prohibitively expensive. That would make companies even more reliant on bank lending at a time when many banks are cutting their balance sheets.
“It is a highly unrealistic approach that would make corporate credit more expensive and complex,” said the Association for Financial Markets in Europe.
…
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — Treasury prices declined on Friday, pushing yields up for a third day, with stocks and technical resistance levels guiding action.
Treasurys, which had been higher in European trading hours, posted a weekly loss.
A week ago, the benchmark securities yielded 2.71%. Ten-year yield have increased for three straight weeks.
Yields on 2-year notes (UST2YR 0.57, 0.00, 0.00%) were little changed at 0.57%. That’s up from last Friday, when they ended at 0.51%.
Thirty-year bond yields (UST30Y 3.87, 0.00, 0.00%) rose to 3.87%, up 3 basis points. They’ve risen for three weeks, up from 3.67% a week ago.
“A very, very light day today for the New York Friday trading session should help the shortened holiday summer week come to a graceful close after a very bearish U.S. Treasury week,” said George Goncalves, a bond strategist at Nomura.
…
Wow! Am I on the wrong blog? Is this Stormfront light now or something? So just to clarify, it is just because of the “blacks” that this is happening, right? I have a feeling if a minority moved in next to you, you would want to move too…
That is about the most racist thing I have heard here. Pretty much every industrial city in the northeast and midwest went to hell in the last 20 years, and the people with the money moved out. In some of those cities, most of the people without money happen to be minorities - who ended up stuck - and of course with less and less of a tax base, the issues just perpetuate themselves. But in New England there are plenty of old mill towns with the exact same problems occurring with mostly poor white populations. What is their excuse?
“Comment by Diogenes (Tampa, Florida)
2010-09-11 08:41:57
Milwaukee, once formerly inhabited by German and Polish immigrants, is now 40% black (”african-american”). I would vacate, too. Whenever there is a proportion greater than about 15%, the city falls into decay. You just can’t support that much “entitlement”.
Wow! Am I on the wrong blog? Is this Stormfront light now or something? So just to clarify, it is just because of the “blacks” that this is happening, right? I have a feeling if a minority moved in next to you, you would want to move too…
That is about the most racist thing I have heard here. Pretty much every industrial city in the northeast and midwest went to hell in the last 20 years, and the people with the money moved out. In some of those cities, most of the people without money happen to be minorities - who ended up stuck - and of course with less and less of a tax base, the issues just perpetuate themselves. But in New England there are plenty of old mill towns with the exact same problems occurring with mostly poor white populations. What is their excuse?
For anyone operating under the sad delusion that voting for the corrupt Establishment GOP in November is going to curb Wall Street’s rapacious looting of Main Street, there’s a thing or two you need to know about Republicrat leader John Boehner, whore of the corporate lobbyists.
San Diego is trailing 10 of the league’s 15 other teams in attendance, averaging fewer than 26,000 fans at home despite playing in one of baseball’s best parks.
September 11, 2010|5:34 p.m.
If they win it,will they come?
The San Diego Padres may be leading the National League West in wins, but they’re trailing 10 of the league’s 15 other teams in attendance, averaging fewer than 26,000 fans at home despite playing in one of baseball’s best ballparks.
And they didn’t even do that well in the 12 games that preceded this weekend’s crucial four-game showdown with the second-place San Francisco Giants, drawing an average of 25,086 against Philadelphia, Colorado and the Dodgers.
…
Indeed, for many Americans, literally every line they fill out on their tax return is information the I.R.S. already has. (If you don’t believe it, try not filling out the “wages” line on your tax return next year and see what happens. You’ll receive a notice that states your wages — and assesses a penalty for not reporting them.)
And yet these same people are forced to spend hundreds of millions of hours and several billion dollars each year preparing and filing their taxes….
With a small adjustment in processing procedures, the revenue service could send you a tax form already filled out with the information it has for you — a Simple Return — rather than a blank tax form. You would simply check the numbers against your W-2 and 1099 and then sign it. That would be it. If you didn’t want to participate, you could just throw the Simple Return away and do your own taxes the old-fashioned way.
Funny ,today I was thinking exactly about what you posted DennisN.
Its pure misery dealing with all the paperwork and receipts and I hate
all the little papers that make up what transpired financially in a given year .
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Falling Rates Aid Debtors, but Hamper SaversBy GRAHAM BOWLEY
Published: September 8, 2010
It is a side effect of a government policy meant to push down interest rates to a point that businesses and consumers are compelled to borrow and spend again, and yet it is hurting anyone with a savings account.
With the regulated rate that financial institutions can borrow from one another at almost zero, banks are paying savers next to nothing. The average returns on interest-bearing deposit accounts slipped to 0.99 percent in July, according to Market Rates Insight, which tracks bank rates. It is the first time its measure has dipped below 1 percent since the 1950s, when its data begins.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/09/business/economy/09rates.html
For most of the past 3 decades you could get that rate on an interest bearing checking account……
Sorry about that, grandma.
The low rates have for the first time forced my Mom into negative cash flow…She relied on the interest income to pay her bills…She does not consume much being that she is 85 years old “today” but she worries a lot about being able to take care of herself and the reduced interest income worries her because she fears she will run out of savings…
If this is the first time that your 85 YEAR OLD(!) mother has had a negative cash flow, then she’s led an extremely charmed life.
She ought to be intensely grateful.
My folks are in the same pot of stew: Too scared to invest in risky assets, but doomed to zero returns and the risk of ‘higher than expected’ future inflation if they play it safe.
Your parents might want to take a look at Berkshire (BRKB). It is the highest quality stock on the NYSE. Having Warren Buffett investing your money is not entirely unacceptable.
What happens when Buffett dies?
“What happens when Buffett dies?”
Warren CAN’T die silly he’s one of the Muppets. It’s all done with invisible strings, sticks and real magic.
I watch TV and I know these things !!
“What happens when Buffett dies?”
The stock will tank, which just might actually make for a buying opportunity.
I retired a few years ago - mostly accidentally - because my nest egg would yield about $25-30K annually based on historical average CD yields over the last 50 years. Add another $20K when SS kicks in and I was looking at around $50K/year in retirement. Not rich but comfortable when you are frugal like me.
Now I’m only getting more like $10K and I have to deplete my nest egg about $14K per year to survive. Fixed costs such as Blue Cross, property tax, and insurance certainly aren’t going away. And there certainly isn’t any hiring going on for folks in their late 50’s who haven’t been employed for 5 years.
Unfortunately, the US government has become a Robin Hood of sorts, stealing from the prudent to reward the reckless, as evidenced by the zero interest rate policy (ZIRP) engineered by the Bernokio Federal Reserve.
It’s too bad that we Americans have become a nation of compliant sheep. In other eras of American history, thieves like Bernokio would have been hanged for their crimes.
ZIRP means not having to pay income taxes on interest income.
ZIRP means one should keep his job; If earned income has to compete against interest income in bidding for goods and services then earned income will win out on the bidding because interest income won’t be showing up.
ZIRP makes the value of a job priceless. If one was to determine the value of a job by how much money it generates and then compare this job to an annuity that generates the same amount of money, then one could rightly say the value of the job is the same as the price of the annuity. The lower the amount of money the annuity pays out the greater the value of a job that pays out the same amount.
At a truly ZIRP rate an annuity would pay out a zero amount of money which would make the value of a job to have an infinite value in comparison.
I hear DennisN…Same thoughts going through my mind…
I don’t get this strategy. Wouldn’t banks want savers? Savers give them money. Banks lend that money for say….houses.
Or does the fact that Fannie and Freddie still exist negate that need? As long as they can pass home loans along to Uncle Sugar, who needs savers? Is that how it works now?
Like anyone else who needs something, the bank shops around for what it needs (money) at the lowest price. The price of government money is the best price right now, so that’s who banks buy it from.
So, the bank has a supplier for all the money it needs, it turns around and sells (lends) that money at a profit, and doesn’t care about anything else.
——
The government knows what it’s doing. It lowered it’s price so that banks have no reason to go after saver’s-money… no reason to compete for it.. no reason to pay a lot (of interest) for it.
The govt has set up a situation where saving money in banks is not very profitable for savers.
The govt hopes that savers will put the money someplace with a better return than a bank will currently pay them, like maybe buy stocks or buy a home or a car (it doesn’t matter what), and stimulate the economy.
“…like maybe buy stocks or buy a home or a car…”
Nothing like a period when Main Street American households are losing their jobs in droves for Keynesian czars to strong-ARM them into committing to big-ticket purchases. The time to fix this problem would have been back when the housing bubble was blowing up to ginormous proportions; now is too late.
..Nothing like a period when Main Street American households are losing their jobs in droves..
well.. go buy something and maybe save someone’s job.
I just went to Costco and blew off $250. What have you done?
Here we go again. That isn’t Keynesian.
IAT
Chinese factory workers and American corporate execs thank you.
We have our house money in the bank (well, actually insured up to $900,000 at TDAmeritrade) and we should be making about $30K-$40K Interest Income. We have a lot of money sitting there. We feel like we bent over. We’ve always been frugal, like the rest of you.
If we could turn back the hands of time, we would have had a ball in an overpriced home, borrowed to the hilt, and then filed a Ch 13 BK Lien Strip on the additional mortgages, since the house would have been underwater. Wish we had eyes in the back of our heads. Darn it. (Morals, who needs them.You lose out.)
“Wouldn’t banks want savers? Savers give them money.”
So does the FED… at .25%
“Wouldn’t banks want savers?”
They don’t need them if the Fed loans to them (on a discriminatory basis) at or near zero percent. The banks get monopoly money for free which they can loan out to American households at market rates.
I would love to see the evidence that the Fed’s charter grants them the right to do this, at least on the scale which recently occurred. My impression, from my foggy recollection of how our banking system used to work back when it did, was that the discount window existed for the Fed to make loans on an extremely limited, highly discretionary basis to individual banks who got themselves into trouble.
Post-crisis, the old rules no longer applied and we entered an entirely new era, one where banks were enabled to obtain loanable funds at essentially zero cost for purposes of systemically extracting wealth from American households, or, if they so chose, to snap up foreclosure homes at fire sale prices and hold them off the market, keeping young American families priced out forever and paralyzing local housing and labor markets.
By contrast to the dreary experience on Main Street, the period since the Fall 2008 financial meltdown has been highly profitable for Megabank, Inc, as evidenced by the gargantuan bonuses they managed to pay out even in 2008, while Main Street America learned to enjoy the view from under the bus. It is time for the Fed brass to declare from the bow of the ship that major combat operations in the War on Savers are now over, and revisit the traditional rules of banking.
Most of the Fortune 500 are doing quite well also.
‘Pain comes roaring back’ on foreclosure front
By SARAH SHEMKUS
September 01, 2010 12:00 AM
Foreclosure numbers continued their steady climb last month, according to numbers released Tuesday by real estate data firm The Warren Group.
In Bristol County, completed foreclosures more than doubled in July, jumping from 58 in July 2009 to 121. The region has been experiencing growth in foreclosures since December.
Foreclosure numbers “got better last year because there were an awful lot of programs and laws … that encouraged them to slow down,” said Vincent Valvo, editor-in-chief of Banker and Tradesman, a publication of The Warren Group. “But it’s an awful lot like taking aspirin when you’ve got a toothache: It makes it feel better for a little while, but then the pain comes roaring back.”
Plymouth County saw 114 foreclosures in July, up 70 percent from the July 2009 total of 67. The number of completed foreclosures in the area began rising in March.
On Cape Cod, the number of foreclosure deeds filed in July was 144 percent higher than during the same month last year, jumping from 27 in July 2009 to 66 last month. This increase marks the eighth straight month in which foreclosure numbers in Barnstable County have exceeded the previous year’s total after several months of declining foreclosure levels.
As the number of completed foreclosures has been climbing, however, the number of petitions to foreclose filed — the first step in the process — has been increasing far more slowly. This discrepancy, said Valvo, indicates that homeowners who enter the foreclosure process have a far greater chance of losing their houses than in the past.
“The probability that you will lose your home has increased exponentially,” he said.
At Housing Assistance Corp. in Hyannis, approximately 25 homeowners at risk of losing their homes call seeking help every week, said vice president of operations Nancy Davison. The agency’s three foreclosure prevention counselors have an active caseload of between 1,600 and 1,900 clients at any given time, she said.
Early on in the economic downturn, many of the organization’s clients had taken out subprime loans or other mortgages with questionable terms, she said. Now, however, “most of the people we’re working with have 30-year fixed mortgages,” Davison said. “Most of the people are here because of lost revenue and lost jobs.”
Even financial institutions that never made any subprime mortgages or loosened their lending standards during the housing boom are starting to see the impact of the economy on their borrowers.
“We have seen our borrowers struggling,” said Peter Muise, president and CEO of Fairhaven-based First Citizens’ Federal Credit Union.
Though his credit union has not seen as significant an uptick in foreclosures as the state as a whole, Muise is concerned about what might happen if the economy continues along its current path.
“Unless there is some systemic change, we will start to fall into line with the (statewide) numbers,” he said.
The high foreclosure numbers already have started to affect the real estate market by adding to the number of homes available for sale, said David Callahan, president of the Cape Cod and Islands Association of Realtors.
“Whenever you have a large inventory, it brings the prices down,” he said.
That headline scared me at first glance. I thought it said “Palin comes roaring back”.
“Palin comes roaring back”
When did the Grizzly Mom stop roaring ??
As I’ve said before, it’s only one letter difference between “housing” and a “hosing”.
Driving on 6A through Cape Cod last weekend I couldn’t help but notice a realtors office every 1/2 mile or so was. There were a fair amount of for sale signs as well.
In remembrance of 9/11, a day that will live in infamy. I pray the US can heal itself and recover from all the havoc that has been wreaked on it from both outside and from within.
And, dear God, just a teensy little prayer, if You could see fit to rapture up Washington and Wall Street, I’d consider it a huge favor. Otherwise I’ll keep having to wish them into the cornfield.
We have an opportunity to rapture much of Washington in November, if the voters feel up to it.
Meh. You mean turn the lousy coin to the other side? Or choosing sh*t on toast over sh*t?
We can’t do anything about the choices offered up but we can do something about the incumbancy.
The incumbants want to remain in office. This is the edge we voters have - it may be our only edge, but it might be edge enough. Send them a message that they might get fired and maybe they’ll clean up their act.
Sure you can do something about the choices. You can opt out of the Republicrat’s plutocrat puppet show and only back independent candidates who aren’t afraid to speak truth to power.
back independent candidates ??
Insert “bank” for “back” and we have a shot because therein the problem…There is no possible was a independent candidate can make a national run at the presidency against the massive money machines of the DNC & RNC…That is unless, someone like Bloomberg along with the backing of Gates & Buffet step up and completely overwhelm the other two…It could happen but I am afraid it will not until the nation as a whole is completely in the $hitter…
Who cares about the Presidency? That’s backwards. Take over the local parties first, worry about the President later.
worry about the President later
I’d agree with you, if people weren’t ceding more and more power to the federal government.
Sadly, people would rather be governed by a body controlling 300 million+ people rather than one that can adapt to their individual needs.
You can always convert to Islam, or something else?
“We have an opportunity to rapture much of Washington in November, if the voters feel up to it.”
I must have missed something, as all I see is the same old same old.
yup, but I will as usual go for the lesser of two evils. Things seem to work best when we have a democrat based house and senate, and a republican president and visa-versa…
Right now, I am VERY concerned about the attrition rates of small businesses… Obama seems to really have a thing against small business, which is unfortunate… Hopefully for him this November, because while I generally don’t much bother voting, he has definitely inspired me this year!
the best case will be to render him a lame duck president through the balance of his presidency, and hope we can get rid of Palin on the other side for the next elections or I will be ALL confused and not show up at all!
Could we hand out grubby, used clothes and shopping carts with broken wheels to WS and Washington? Cause that is where we will all end up if this monumental mess is not addressed. They could amble around central Washington DC, sleep in Battery Park in Manhattan, and talk to themselves.
We will. They won’t.
Roidy
Our government is a mirror. Look into it and we see ourselves.
Time for a facelift.
face lift? Purely cosmetic…
Joey-
Yes, but it’s yourself in the mirror. That’s why I am thinking of a medical tourism one in Argentina for 50% less. Many of the docs were trained here.
You’re not a lady, so you’re not as vain.
You’re smart, young, and handsome, but one day…
Awipeout…
Are you serious about the Medical trip to Argentina ?? Have you did the research ??
Reason I ask is because I need my knees scoped and cleaned up and I know there is no way my medical Ins. will cover it because they consider it a elective procedure since it does not effect my ability to function daily..I bet it would run $15,000 per knee if not more…They don’t give a rats a$$ if I cannot go play softball or run…Let me know please…Thanks
Actually, children look at me, begin to cry and reach out for their mothers… otoh, beautiful women find me attractive for some perverse reason.
I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder..
scdave.. i know someone who only had to go as far Arkansas for some half-price dental implant work.
scdave
You can check out Hospital Planet in Calabasas, So Ca (yes, they have a website). I know a few folks who have used them to match them up with the right country and hospital, for different types of procedures and surgery, and they had great results. There is a video of a happy heart surgery patient who went to India on their website. Planet Hospital’s corp office is in a pretty affluent area, btw. Insurance companies are sending people out of the U.S. too.
Oh, I’m sorry. It’s Planet Hospital.
http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/2009/03/27/planet-hospital-lures-patients-save-medical-care/
http://www.planethospital.com/
https://www.healthbase.com/hb/pages/medical-tourism.jsp
Super !!! Thanks a lot wipeout…..
Arkansas … dental (implant) work
I see a punchline coming….
Arkansas … dental (implant) work
Probably those false vampire teeth you see at Halloween.
Probably those false vampire teeth you see at Halloween.
Actually, I’ll be needing dental implants soon. Been missing two teeth my whole life, and currently have bridges. Once they fail (likely in the next year), implants will be the way to go, though at a cost of about $10k out of pocket for two teeth.
And of course I won’t be able to deduct that…
sorry.. no punchline. A comedian could make something out of it.
The guy shopped a little and told me they would be half price in Arkansas… they run about 5K each in California. I haven’t heard back so can’t vouch for the price or the quality of treatment.
Bridges are very inferior.. gotta partially destroy the adjacent teeth to attach the bridge, etc. Implant is the way to go. One hour in the chair. Wait three months. Another hour and you have bionic teeth for life.
Bridges are very inferior.. gotta partially destroy the adjacent teeth to attach the bridge, etc. Implant is the way to go.
Yep, I’m well aware. Got the bridges put in when I was young.
Can’t say I’m a fan of someone drilling into my jaw, though. <shudder>
They’re about $5k a piece in Seattle area as well. Perhaps I should check out Arkansas also….
Wall St was not and never will be subject to will of the people.
And that’s all she wrote. Game over.
“if You could see fit to rapture up Washington and Wall Street, I’d consider it a huge favor.”
Rapture? I’d expect them to be cast into Hell.
In Colorado
LOL.
I am aware it’s 9-11, but everyone, have a wonderful day. You’re not getting it back.
You mean all that talk in the Bible was about raptures?
I always thought they were just into dinosaurs, you know, raptors.
I learn new stuff here every time I check in.
Hey Losty
Hi Mikey -
Losty gal,
Still in Canada or back in Utah?
Actually the word “rapture” is nowhere to be found in the New Testament. It’s a doctrine that Evangs and Fundies invented.
You could always ask YHWH for the Lot’s wife solution.
Phoenix housing market lacks supply of homebuyers
by Catherine Reagor - Sept. 9, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
Few homes are selling. Prices keep dropping.
In the metro Phoenix housing market, it’s all a simple matter of supply and demand: too many homes for sale and not enough buyers.
Of the people who are buying homes, more than a third are investors, snapping up mostly foreclosure homes at bargain prices and turning them into rentals. The number of houses on the market remains high, partly because many traditional homebuyers just aren’t buying.
Some of them want to buy - but can’t.
Mortgage requirements are tighter now than they have been in a generation, and many people who would like to get into the market can’t qualify.
Some of them can buy - but won’t.
Many renters today see friends and relatives burned by the housing collapse who now owe more than their homes are worth.
They’re reluctant to get in because they think home values will keep falling. Many young professionals say that they find such great bargains in rental homes, buying doesn’t make financial sense.
Can’t buy
Despite nearly record-low interest rates, lending guidelines for many borrowers are tougher than they’ve been in 20 years. Gone are the mortgages from the boom years that allowed people to purchase homes with little to no down payment or documentation of their incomes.
This is affecting all types of homebuyers. Except for first-time buyers who qualify for Federal Housing Administration loans that require as little as 3.5 percent down, many borrowers must now come up with at least 10 percent down payments and prove their income over multiple years.
http://www.azcentral.com/rsslinks/1827085 - 97k
“Many renters today see friends and relatives burned by the housing collapse who now owe more than their homes are worth.”
Five years ago people were afraid to not be investing in housing.
Not me. No investing in houses ever. Never tried to make money with them. Just wanted to live in one. Never lost any money and made a bunch when I sold.
I didn’t mean to.
Roidy
“Of the people who are buying homes, more than a third are investors, snapping up mostly foreclosure homes at bargain prices and turning them into rentals.”
Hence:
1. The rental market will become saturated with rentals and will force the cost of renting to decline.
2. Declining rental costs will futhur skew the rent/own ratio. If it makes mores sense to rent than to own then rent is what people will end up doing, which will add more pressure to the price decline of houses.
2. Declining house prices will add still more enthusiam to so-called bargain hunters (aka knifecatchers) and fire them up with more desire to pluck down money for houses so they can be turned into rentals with the result of more damage being done to the rental market which will ….
“1. The rental market will become saturated with rentals and will force the cost of renting to decline.”
And many a neighborhood will fall into a slum. Several rentals in my hood have had a continual stream of new renters and the places look like slum houses.
the places look like slum houses ??
And when slum “tenant” gets hurt or worse when slum tenant “child” gets hurt because Slum “landlord” fails to respond to request for fixing a hazardous problem then;
Slum tenant becomes new slum owner…
There’s another side though…cheap rentals will bring people back out of their parent’s basements. It’s hard to extrapolate total rental demand based only upon current rental quantities. Does anyone have any statistics about how many people are back in mom and dad’s basement?
I suspect the data on household formations would be a indicator DennisN…
Does anyone have any statistics about how many people are back in mom and dad’s basement?
I can say that I know of one person - my brother. He’s back living with mom while get gets back on his feet financially…
Of course he didn’t sell his house - is just renting it out until the market recovers
My brother is living at home again, driving my mother crazy with worry over what the idiot will do next. Thankfully, she has reversed mortgaged the house, so when she leaves, he gets the boot too.
I am very happy to be renting in Phoenix and L.A. Phoenix rental location cannot be better in the metro area. I feel more secure by not making any commitment in any form: real estate, marriage, even citizenship. Canada is looking better than the U.S. For now. But I do recognize we are in a cycle. I will wait it out and just invest in cheap things. Houses are not cheap yet, at least in Phoenix. Right now I am looking out my balcony window in Phoenix at the beautiful park (in Phoenix for the weekend). It will take a great deal on a custom home on the opposite side of the park to get me to get a little interest in commitment, or one along the Scottsdale greenbelt north of Indian School rd.
America’s greatness will return. I am sorry to tell that to you perma bears/grumps.
I am starting to scoop up undervalued stocks that pay low dividends.
I also like short term treasuries and avoid any treasury investment with a maturity over two years.
Precious metals and bonds are not cheap. Real estate in coastal cities of California certainly are not cheap. The next “big one” will make those homes cheap!
‘I am sorry to tell that to you perma bears/grumps’
Yeah, whatever. You ain’t tellin’ me anything, as I happen to think the housing crash is neccesary to getting the economy back to more productive means. Funny how almost everyone, including youself apparently, try to pin some of us down as ‘doom and gloom.’ I’ve always asked, what’s so gloomy about affordable housing?
‘The next “big one” will make those homes cheap’
So who’s the one cheering for massive earthquakes? Not me.
Ben:
this drags on a few more years we will be talking Hundreds of thousands of homes being bulldozed because they aint worth fixin up….now that to me is a crime…so maybe a massive earthquake and getting this over with, is the lesser of two evils???
I doubt we’ll see that on a large scale. It isn’t practical and would cost the lenders more than selling. There are a lot of houses out there with near zero value but that was the case with or without a housing bubble. The problem for the lenders is they loaned against wore out housing, so they are stuck with those.
“wore out housing’ = another excellent HBB term Ben.
Ben:
what about Detroit Cleveland Camden NJ,other blighted areas?
and FL with those houses getting black mold and chinese drywall all closed up in the summer….are they really worth tearing apart and rebuilding?
I doubt we’ll see that on a large scale. It isn’t practical and would cost the lenders more than selling
worth tearing apart and rebuilding
No, a lot of stuff is going to be torn down. But I don’t think useful houses will be unless there is something like an unsalvageable HOA failure, and that should be a limited thing.
Don’t get me wrong, IMO, real estate is too expensive and going to be that way for years. I am bearish, but never perm bearish and never perma bullish.
I am neither a perma-bear nor a perma-bull, but merely a dancing matador with my sword of reality in the ring of life . . . full of sound and fury . . . signifying nothing.
So who’s the one cheering for massive earthquakes? Not me ??
Nor me…Why is the big one framed around the destruction to real estate anyway ?? That can always be rebuilt…The massive loss of life & injuries would dwarf 9/11 & Katrina…
I quit praying for earthquakes. I think that Tsunamis are more humane, and better for the herd anyway.
Only the truely dumb ones run out onto the empty bay to listen to the realtors tout all the new land for sale.
Well, per phone call from my RE agent and a few minor details in my short sale offer CONTRACT, I am scheduled to close on my DreamHouse about a 150 miles, away on Monday, 13 September 2010.
This should prove most enlightening as neither the FB’s, their agent, my agent or I have heard anything from the banksters running this 4 star clown circus show.
Excuse me while I find a telephone booth, change into my tiny cape, grab a house inspection, title insurance, shack insurance and load my little moving van faster than a speeding pullet.
Oooops!…wouldn’t ya know it, there’s no telephone booth around either.
I bet you guys already knew that.
Life is Fantastic when you’re mikey and always having Fun !!
Mikey,
Wow, that’s great news. I’d have an “O” but at my age, I might kell over!
That was quick. Please give us some insight as to why your deal went through so quick. Did you pay cash?
I’m tickled for you.
Come Monday at midnight, the so-called “deal” expires due non-performance on the parties of the FB’s and their banksters masters.
Technically and legally of course, I could stay in the game and ammend and extend their deadline time period to complete this transaction for say…another 10k OFF my low ball offer.
That should produce some frowns.
Yeah…I’m cash.
Seems like it’s going the way of most short sales, Mikey. Both buyer and seller agree, then the bank does nothing, the contract expires, and the house goes from “Pending Short Sale” to “Back on Market”. Maybe a few more of these then it disappears entirely, only to show up months or years later as “Bank Owned”.
Yes…this must tough on the FB wannabe sellers and their RE agents nerves. Good!!
The lenders, they couldn’t care less, especially 2nd lein holders. I believe that I even invited them to the closing party. It’s even one of my banks that holding up the sale.
My son toured this shack with his college professor when they were trying FSBO this shack and fishing for 279k in 2006. It’s okay and I was feeling generous and offered them 195k in a “moment of weakness” providing that they replaced the h20 softener.
FB’s are out of state now, house and property have been kept in immaculate condition by somebody but another long, hard Wisconsin is a’coming. You get virtually little or no information in a short sale offer. I only went after this place because I knew a little bit about it.
IMHO, they’ll be lucky as hell to snag 182-85k for it next Spring the way small town Wisconsin’s economies are going south. Makes no difference to me, I deserve a vacation after all these years and that’s hard to arange and do in Wisconsin winters with a stupid house.
They all have my phone number but I might be on a beach in SE Asia, munching on Jumbo shrimp in red wine sauce, watching the pretty girls. I will remember to send postcards to eveybody envolved in the deal if I go though.
Oh sorry Mikey, I guess my Mentalpause hit again. After doing financial statements starting at 3:30 this morning, I am burned out. Excuse me.
No problem…trying buying a house should always be Fun and an Adventure !!
Actually, earthquakes drive UP the cost of housing/rentals.. because the supply of houses has fallen while the demand has risen.. especially in the short term… just look at Katrina…
“Of the people who are buying homes, more than a third are investors, snapping up mostly foreclosure homes at bargain prices and turning them into rentals.”
Yep. Still waaaaaay too many infestors in the market. I sat next to one on the plane Thursday (I know- I always swear I’ll never fly again, but darn it I had to). He was an arrogant pigman who worked for Morgan Stanley. I conversed with him, nonetheless, as I was interested in hearing about his sty, and the slop he was feeding on. He was more than happy to talk about himself. Seems he and some “partners” were flipping in many markets, with Arizona being one of their main focuses. He was only making 2% cash on cash, and getting burned on a few properties. The market is still headed down.
He also mentioned, with glee I might add, that Morgan Stanley made $15 per barrel on the crude they took delivery of and parked out on the ocean last year. My pleasant smile hid my desire to open the emergency exit and toss him out- not only for the obvious reasons, but because he had quite a nauseating case of dandruff which was making me gag. For an investment banker, I was quite disappointed in his attire, too.
Sheesh GrizzlyBear,
You could have jabbed him to death with a plastic fork, quietly disembarked and lied like the devil about where you sat in the plane when the cops and PTB asked.
Don’t say…”I didn’t have a plastic fork”. A ballpoint pen would have worked.
Since we have to choose one, it’s the lesser of two evils. We have to get the Democrats out.
Georgiagirl
With all due respect,that lesser of the two evils hyperbole is ridiculous. Evil is evil. All this R&D flipping solves nothing.
Palmetto- You’ve got that right!
Can we stay off the political stuff. It makes me blow a head gasket.
Thank you. My candidate of choice is NOTA until the quality of the average American is as good as six decades ago. It will take a few years of self-discipline (living below one’s means) to get there, and that will be forced upon us. America will become much stronger coming out of this drab gray sovietism.
How do we get NOTA (none of the above) on every ballot in country?
Voting NOTA sends a message that you took the time to come out and vote, but found the presented choices lacking in some way.
The powers that be are too scared to have it. Basically the NOTA would work this way: if NOTA gets more votes than any candidate, that office will be vacant until the next election. I prefer to just keep driving past the polling place since NOTA is not on my ballot. The non-choices we have are those who impose their religious morality on others and those who enjoy robbing from productive and giving to the non deserving.
Essentially my non vote is my NOTA.
I view it differently.
The candidate that gets the majority (or plurality) of the votes gets seated in office.
The NOTA tally serves notice to the candidates that they do not have “a mandate”. It lets the candidates know that the voters don’t think very much of them.
I recall one candidate won an election by something like 52% to 48% and he claimed he won a “mandate from the voters”.
You’re right when you say the powers that be will never let it happen.
This is from Milwaukee but you can bet that they are having these meetings and reports in cities all over America.
Banks report on foreclosed properties
City asked to hear plans to handle crisis
By Georgia Pabst of the Journal Sentinel
Sept. 11, 2010 |
Before an overflow committee room, representatives of the nation’s largest banks met with city officials and others Friday to explain what they are doing to deal with the foreclosure crisis that’s costing the city millions in lost tax revenue.
Since the crisis started, the city has lost about 8% of its housing stock and millions in lost tax revenues, said Art Dahlberg, commissioner of the Department of Neighborhood Services.
There are 5,000 vacant properties and 6,000 to 7,000 other properties in the process of foreclosure, he said. In addition to the lost revenue, he said, the city is stuck with the cost of maintaining and dealing with properties that are vacant, vandalized and magnets for crime.
http://tinyurl.com/25xsxud
Milwaukee, once formerly inhabited by German and Polish immigrants, is now 40% black (”african-american”). I would vacate, too. Whenever there is a proportion greater than about 15%, the city falls into decay. You just can’t support that much “entitlement”.
Do you have a link to a source that supports your statement, “whenever there is a proportion greater than about 15%, the city falls into decay.”
Taken at face value your statement sounds racist. Is that what you meant?
Detroit.
Bubba, why don’t you refute Diogenes’ statement by offering up a couple of examples of cities where the 15% threshold HASN’T caused any decay.
“Taken at face value your statement sounds racist. Is that what you meant?
”
OOOH, the racism cop is here!! I’m so scared! Oh please, Mr. Racism cop, don’t call me…RACIST!!!
You’re also free to research this if you like, Bill.
Once we hit the ‘add comment’ button here we lose the ability to edit our comments. Sometimes what we mean to say and what we actually post are not the same.
It’s not my intention to refute his argument. I asked him for a source to support his statement to solidify his argument. I also asked him if he intended to make a racist argument because it sure sounded like one to me.
It’s called critical thinking. It involves listening, examining, and sometimes clarifying premises to determine if they support the argument’s conclusion, and if in fact they accurately reflect what the person meant to say.
So Bill, do you normally jump to researching a counter argument when you’re faced with an argument that fails to make its prima facie case?
On my good days I ask for clarification and ask the speaker if what he said is what he meant to say.
Racist arguments normally don’t withstand sunshine.
Atlanta is 30% African American. Please take your racism elsewhere. Cities fall into decline where there is a lack of middle class citizens, socioeconomic class is a much better predictor of urban problems.
Considering both Milwaukee and Detroit lost key job creating industries, it is no surprise the cities are in decline.
Let me add to Bill in Carolina’s comment. Not just city. Show me an example of one black country, city, county, town, neighborhood….that exemplifies a low crime, success model.
There isnt even an anecdotal local that you can come up with to finish this sentence..
“I know most black areas are crime ridden undesireable places but, look at _________”
Like I said where is Jesse and sharpton when katrina happened demanding jobs for those flooded out in the 9th ward????
Instead they had to import 15,000 illegals to do the work…they were desperate for help even at McD because few spoke spanish.
You will never solve the race and discrimination problem until we demand every American learns to read write and speak English.
How can anyone even think this is a racist statement? to damnnn the staus quo, and seriously educate all black people.
——————————
Bubba, why don’t you refute Diogenes’ statement by offering up a couple of examples of cities where the 15% threshold HASN’T caused any decay.
Jaded:
A quick search of google and you get the truth…its bad there
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ga/atlanta/crime/
Atlanta is a bad example. It is a Federal Reserve money pot town. When you have a central bank, in conjunction with government that gives out loans to “minorities” and places racial quotas in hiring, and promotes imbeciles to government jobs with big salaries, it’s easy to pretend that these “middle class” people are contributing to the greater good. I think Atlanta needs just a little more time to go over the edge.
Take New Orleans. Remember. That was a “chocolate town”. and they wanted to keep it a “chocolate town”.
The 9th ward vacated and took their problems to Houston. Sorry for Houston. Now Houston is a crime-ridden cesspool. The “other” parts of New Orleans and all the Gulf Coast have re-built and are getting back to business as usual. No one in the media ever cried for the hard-working, devastated white folks. No, it was all George Bush’s fault, and racism, that the “minority” areas are still a disaster. Well, get to work and start cleaning up and fixing the place.
As for “sources”, that is the greatest sign of a lost mind. You can’t just look at what’s going on without a “study” to convince you that something else is really the root cause.
There’s plenty of “evidence” to look at. It’s just that because it may not be a pleasant view, we must find other reasons for the failures we witness. Most assuredly, it must be “white racism”. What else could it be??
Baldwin Hills, California.
It’s so sad how little some “Amuricans” know of the history of their country. Here’s a few examples of thriving black communities destroyed by jealous whites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_Insurrection_of_1898
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood_massacre
And, for a detailed example of how black communities were starved of resources from the middle of the 20th century by government policy that siphoned off resources and subsidized whites, see the award-winning book by Douglas Massey and Nancy Denton titled American Apartheid.
So, if you believe the specious claim that whenever blacks are more than 15% of the population communities fall apart, you have to make sense of why it is that when blacks have a thriving community, whites have historically rioted to destroy the community. Seems to me the second fact explains whatever truth the first fact might appear to have.
Not to say all whites are riotous in their hostility, but, really, blacks are only 15 percent of the population. If only 1 white person out of 5 holds a racist position, then there is about one racist white person for every black person in the nation. Faced with those numbers, it is easy to see how any black community that thrives can get destroyed by hostile whites, even though most whites are no longer hostile.
I know this is in part a statistical argument, which involves numbers and things so, Diogenes, I accept you will probably not understand. Yeah, math is hard. I know. I know. (patting Diogenes on his/her head).
IAT
It is sad how little “Amuricans” know about their history.
If you want to know what happens when blacks have a thriving community of their own, check out the wikipedia pages on Rosewood and Wilmington. These describe the white riots that destroyed thriving middle class black communities. I’d put in the links (and did in a previous post), but apparently that sends the post to some unknown place.
If you want to see how black families were systematically impoverished by government policies designed to subsidize white communities, check out the award-winning book by Douglas Massey and Nancy Denton titled American Apartheid.
If you believe the specious claim that whenever blacks are more than %15 percent of the population calamity follows, you have to explain why it is that whenever blacks dominate an environment and do so successfully, whites swoop in and destroy it. It would seem that the second fact would explain why you would never see a thriving black community, for it won’t be allowed to stand.
Of course, we know that most whites are not hostile to blacks. Yet, blacks are only 15% of the population. Even if only 1 out of every 4 whites is hostile to blacks, that’s about 1 hostile white person for every black person in the nation! Faced with that disparity, it is easy to see how much damage hostile whites can do to thriving black communities.
I know, I know, this is in part a statistical argument, and thus it depends on those pesky, hard to understand things, you know, numbers. I know its tough, and hard for many Americans to grasp (just look at the last 5 years of real estate).
There, there (patting Diogenes’ head), I’m sure your “its too hard to think” headache will pass.
IAT
Sorry for the double post, but I’ve usually been unable to get anything with a link to post, so I re-posted. Sorry for doubling.
Take care.
IAT
Maybe now you will understand why rap and hip hop was was cranked out in such volume….to me any KKK member would be laughing his azz off at how easy it was to keep those people “in their place”. Now you have thousands of radio stations movies all sorts of entertainment to glorify the ghetto gangsta rapper…
Most overt racism has died in America and what left, is based on, they now a have a personal choice to be be black or a ‘N’ and lots choose the latter.
It would seem that the second fact would explain why you would never see a thriving black community, for it won’t be allowed to stand.
Funny, your critique of rap is pretty much the standard line articulated by many members of the black middle class. Also funny that many young whites are embracing the same nihilistic music/lifestyle. Really stupid.
However, with respect to blacks, just because some idiots are unknowingly complicit in their own oppression (and thus partially at fault) doesn’t mean the oppressor is also not partially at fault. There’s more than enough blame to go around.
We say the same thing about the FBs. They are complicit in their own bankruptcy. No one here wants to let them off the hook, and no one here denies the role of others, such as Greenspan and Bernanke. There’s more than enough blame to go around there, too. It’s the same thing, in a way.
Sadly, in both cases (black oppression, destructive finance policy) only the heartless or brainless would deny that many truly innocent people (e.g., 5 year olds) got ground up in the process.
IAT
When my parents were growing up there were middle class black communities. These days middle class (or higher) families choose not to move to predominantly black communities. Most likely because there aren’t many middle class onese left and/or have lives in suburbia. The middle class black people in their 20-40s are the first generation that didn’t have to grow up in segregated schools and have had different opportunities than their parent’s generation. The black middle class “flight” is a lot like the “white flight” a generation ago. The poorer families were left behind.
A general observation: the people who are more likely to claim the majority of black people are like those silly people on TV are the least likely to have any black friends in their circle. There are plenty of middle class black people, we just don’t live all together anymore.
New York City is 25% African American. It’s doing well. In Queens, African Americans make more money than whites.
Boston is 23% African American.
Miami is 22% African American.
Houston is 24% African American.
“Since we have to choose one, it’s the lesser of two evils. We have to get the Democrats out”
Why ?…We haven’t even BEGUN to pay for having republicans IN for their last 8 year tour of capitalism run amuck.
Let’s at least enjoy the suffering before we ask them for another major flogging.
Georgiagirl
Palmetto is right. The lesser of two evils hyberbole is such mental masb*rbation, it makes me want to blow a head gasket. Both parties aren’t addressing the reality, our fearless leaders, WS, and such, have spent the U.S. into BK. Remember, our govt is on the cash basis, and just think, there are over 78M aging Baby Boomers with retirement on the horizon. Add that to our current financial mess. This country is toast.
Spook, do you have sleep deprivation?
Can we all agree to chill on politics.
To add to your point, political churn is a good way to keep oligarchs and the czars who serve them from accumulating too much power. Better to keep a steady flow of outsiders who are not sure what they are doing assume the reins of power at each turn of the election cycle.
That’s always been the issue with “term limits”.
Idaho passed an initiative for legislative “term limits” years ago during the “term limits” boom. When everyone saw how it caused more problems than it solved, the legislature grew a pair and repealed it.
Idaho initiatives are not constitutional amendments but rather have the force of just a normal legislative statute.
“A foreclosure forced Donald Pennington Jr. to move out. But until Tuesday night, nothing and no one could force him to move on.
That’s when the man former neighbors described as “a nut” and “pure evil” was killed in the front yard of the southeast Dallas home that he never could seem to leave after he lost it in 1996. ”
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/091110dnmetobsession.2708de8.html#slcgm_comments_anchor
I predict a movie will be made based on this story.
check out the house.. Not even remotely worth fighting over, imo
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/crime/stories/DN-obsession_11met.ART0.State.Edition1.35dbb7e.html
I believe we’ll see a lot more of that odd behavior. It reminds me of the old black n’ white move:
“The Swimmer, the 1968 surrealist film based on a John Cheever story, makes hay of the phony glamour of swimming-pool culture. Burt Lancaster stars as an aging sexpot whose enviable life with his loving family has vanished. He’s had an affair, he’s bankrupt, and many of his friends have abandoned him. The film opens poolside, with Lancaster at a neighbors’ house, when he realizes that all of the pools in the neighborhood form a virtual chlorinated river that leads all the way to his house; he dubs it the Lucinda River, “in honor of my wife,” and whispers, peering deep into the middle distance, “I could swim home.” And he does, hopping from one pool to the next, conversing with increasingly hostile neighbors along the way, each interaction revealing another piece of the story of his tragic downfall. When he reaches his old, now-empty house, he pounds on the door and wails, then curls into a ball on the stoop and wails some more. It’s a scene so daringly preposterous, so amazingly overacted, you have to admire its chutzpah.”
The Nerve/Will Doig
Ooops, sorry it was in color.
I think I remember watching it on an old black and white tv set.
Seems like an interesting movie, being that I am an avid swimmer and had a thing for pools from an early age. The chlorinated blueness is certainly a different world, where you are shut off from communication with other humans for a length of time, even when other humans are present. It is surreal in itself, like a dream, but with more awareness, and I get in that mode four hours or more per week. Been doing that for several decades now.
I would like a surreal movie on mountain biking…
As a kid, I used to swim, snorkle and dive off of the southern end of Okinawa in the south China sea for endless hours. All day events as you’d lose track of time.
The only things you had to worry about was sunburn, big “fish”, sea snakes, currents and tides,…
My god! I’d forgotten all about that film!
Old American film noir. *sigh*
There are so many houses in my ‘hood in Redington Beach that aren’t on the MLS, no action against the owner in public records, and nobody living in them or taking care of them.
I also learned that Tino Martinez is my neighbor — my wife was very disappointed that she had to explain to me who he is.
Well don’t keep the rest of us in suspense!
+1 Bill …LOL
How much are houses going for in Reddington Beach these days? How much does homeowner’s insurance run you?
We’re renting a 3/2, 1,350 sq. ft. and I asked State Farm for a quote:
$2500 property
$1700 Flood
On top of $2700 in taxes…Our rent is $1,100/mo. There’s a decent 3/2 that sold recently for around $180k (maybe 1,800 sq. ft.), so prices are definitely down. On my side of the street, I am flanked by an abandoned property, the diagonal one is for sale, the one directly behind me is for sale / foreclosure and most likely a teardown. I’m starting to see some rats.
The great news is its very, very quiet and peaceful!
Red Beach
We’re in So Ca and looking to buy our final home w/cash. Homeowners Insurance, if you can find a co that *still insures Ca, is really pricy, and if the home is built before the late 70’s, and all the requirements could choke a horse. Earthquake Insurance has a 15% deductable based on the purchase price iirc, with all kinds of variables. Earthquake Insurance is insanely priced. But with our luck, if we don’t buy it,the house will fall down and go boom!
(*wild fires soured Ca market)
Interest observations in your post.
“Earthquake insurance is insanely priced.”
I live in So Ca. Some observations:
Earthquakes happen but they only happen at the epicenter. It is when one lives close to the epicenter of an earthquake that he experiences major damage.
That’s not saying that earthquakes aren’t felt beyond the epicenter, only that the earthquake’s intensity rapidly drops off as one is distanced from the epicenter. The farther away from the epicenter the less damage from the earthquake.
Earthquakes happen along faultlines. They don’t happen anywhere else. If you live on a faultline then you should expect major damage - someday - from an earthquake. If you live far from a faultline then you should not all that much concerned about earthquakes.
One can easily prepare for an earthquake IF he is not living near a faultline. Where I live (far enough from a faultline not to be worried about earthquakes) it’s a small matter of making sure the water heater is firmly attached to the wall and a few other minor preparations.
And I don’t bother with earthquake insurance.
My house in San Jose was built in 1959, and it always shocked me how it was built with little thought to structural integrity. Basically a cage of 2×4’s with sheetrock on the inside and chicken wire/stucco on the outside. That’s right: no outside wood structural sheathing of any kind to take sheer loads. It did have the sill boards bolted to the foundations. I was surprised to emerge undamaged after the 1989 mag. 7 Loma Prieta earthquake.
A 5/8″ layer of OSB nailed on the outside of the cage doesn’t look like much but it really stiffens that cage.
combotechie
Great post and food for thought, but we lived in Ventura County in 1994, 24 miles away from the epicenter and on a hill. A block away from us, homes built on filled lots were tagged uninhabitable. Our neighborhood at the time was built in 1984. Earthquakes have minds of their own, imho. I guess the Natural Hazard Report is a must read, is my take away.
The key words here are “filled lots”. You can be a long distance away from the epicenter but if you are built on fill you are at risk. The earthquake will do a nice job of “compacting” that fill which isn’t so good for any building at that site. My house in San Jose was about 25 miles from the Loma Prieta epicenter but survived unscathed. Houses on fill in the Marina District - built on fill debris from the 1906 quake - were more like 80 miles from the epicenter but they all collapsed.
DennisN-
Interesting post. We’re paying cash for our toe tag, and this time, I am going to really read (not just a cursory read) the Natural Hazard Report, get information on the lot and area from the City Planning Dept, interview future neighbors, and leave no stone unturned. It’s been 16 years… another one is a’comin.
Dennis, I think the geological terminology is “liquefaction,” applied to such places as the Marina district.
Just for your general edification and consideration, 2 points:
1) Sandy soils display a characteristic known as “liquefaction” when subjected to earthquake (vibration) loads. Whether fill, or just natural formations, they don’t do too well under certain types of vibration. It results in the foundation basically having no support and leading to collapse.
2) Earthquake prone regions need ductility, no stiffness in buildings. Wood is more ductile than many building materials and will flex under stress. The exterior sheathing will increase the shear capacity, but i am uncertain if the “old” method isn’t just as good a product in an earthquake prone region. I suspect the stucco will crack, but the chicken wire probably holds the exterior face together while providing flexure.
After the event, just fill in the cracks with new stucco. It’s just a theory, but apparently, based on the evidence, the construction method is not bad. It wouldn’t work in Florida, however, since we have a different type of lateral loading.
“Earthquakes happen but they only happen at the epicenter.”
I trust that you did get that broad statement directly from God himself and it is carved in solid granite stable rock that goes to the center of the earth I hope !
Diogenes, I’m not a stuctural engineer, but…
If the low-frequency vibration of an earthquake is close to one of the normal modes of vibration of a building, it will feed that normal mode causing severe damage. IIUC adding sheathing raises the frequency of the normal modes of vibration of the building away from the frequencies encountered in earthquakes.
My remark about earthquakes happening only at the epicenter was for those who think an earthquake is something other than a localized event.
The EFFECT of an earthquake is not localized but the CAUSE of the event is. The earth’s plates are drifting and at the borders of these drifting plates there are places where the drifting gets hung up - places where the plates get stuck. Sooner or later the forces that move the plates overcome the place where the plates were hung up and then - wham - you get an earthquake.
Mountains grow as a result of earthquakes, or rather, earthquakes result as mountains are being grown.
There are folks that think the entire state of California will slide into the Pacific Ocean when “The Big One” hits.
combotechie
Thanks for the clarification. 1971 was my first,1994 was my second, and the next earthquake …201?
There’s only 1 small problem with combotechie’s position: We do not know where all the faults are. It is common for an earthquake to occur, and in the aftermath the analysts say, ohh, yeah, that’s a fault we did not know existed.
So, if you are in earthquake country, I do not think you can assume you are far from a fault just because there’s no map showing your house near a fault.
However, earthquake insurance is not really for the homeower, its for the bank. When you walk away (if you can walk) because the $50,000 deductible is beyond your ability to pay, the bank will scoop up the property, use its vast connections with the government to get whatever capital it needs, fix the house, and sell it to the next generation willing to risk life and limb in the earthquake zone. There, banks shored up, all is well in America!
IAT
“A 5/8″ layer of OSB nailed on the outside of the cage doesn’t look like much but it really stiffens that cage.”
Lots of older Southern California apartment buildings collapsed during the Northridge quake of ‘94 due to design faults resembling your discussion.
Holy heck, I’m paying about $800/year for property insurance here in Boise, and that’s a $1 million umbrella policy.
You appear to be on a sand bar down the west coast from Clearwater. If you get taken out by a hurricane, does the insurance company consider that “storm” damage or “flood” damage?
“If you get taken out by a hurricane, does the insurance company consider that “storm” damage or “flood” damage?”
This very question is how lawyers and insurance companies skim millions from Floridians. But to answer your question:
surge = flood
wind = homeowners
Right?
Almost right. The “flood” is FEMA and is a Federal Program.
The “wind” is through a State-run program in every State where wind is an issue. It is a rider to the “homeowners” policy. The Insurance companies basically cover content. The other two pools pay for damages to the property.
That is why in Florida, and other hurricane prone regions we got “codes” to protect the building envelope to prevent breakage of windows and doors and damage to the roof. The insurance companies were all refusing to provide coverage, because the contents were being destroyed and they had to pay out big time.
“Holy heck, I’m paying about $800/year for property insurance here in Boise, and that’s a $1 million umbrella policy.”
Me too. Isn’t flyover country great? Everytime I read about people paying $8000 year for property taxes on a 1200 sq ft house, or $600 a month for utilites I can only shake my head.
Wow. I’m amazed at how much property insurance has risen in Pinellas over the past several years.
I think I paid about $600 per year for property insurance around 8-12 years ago for a 1400 sqft house in Clearwater. I was on high ground so I wasn’t required to have flood insurance.
Your post prompted me to look at some asking prices in the 33764 zip code. Many of the prices are back down to 2002 levels.
” I’m starting to see some rats.”
“What’chu talkin’ ’bout, Winston?”
“Do it to Julia!”
“On top of $2700 in taxes…Our rent is $1,100/mo.”
Residential w/ triple net lease?
I’m confused!
Our rent is 1,100
Our LL bears all other expenses — just pointint out that, at market rate, half of the PITI would be T&I.
Who the heck is Tino Martinez? Lola Falana’s son?
Happy Birthday Lola:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lola_Falana
One little teeny comment and people get upset. Chill out.
Georgiagirl
Welcome aboard. Nice to meet your acquaintance. Nope, no one is upset. We’re family here. We agree to disagree sometimes.
We’re a lot like a family. We bicker, laugh at each other, share our joys and disappointments. And we mourn our losses. We just don’t agree on everything.
wolfgirl
So beautifully expressed. Thank you.
I might add, we learn from each other, and when we’re wrong on a fact, a smarty will correct us, usually gently.
I never really argue either, because we’re all warm, fuzzy cuddly little friends in here…Plus Ben might stomp me.
(he he he chuckles evil mikey, quietly plotting his Revenge and Patiently adding another name to his Enemies Hit List)
Mikey
You are a little devil, stiring up trouble again? But we love ya anyway.
Mikey bought a house.
Mikey bought a house.
It was a good buy.
Hooray for Mikey!
(Ok, I wiped the green off my face. My day will come too.)
awaiting wipeout,
Settle down now…I know that you want a Wisconsin Johnsonville Brat n’ Beer Party, Spotted Cow beer and squeaky cheese sticks at the fancy pool up the street next summer but…
If the All the little various evil banksters elves DON’T approve this deal and ALLOW the FB’s to sell me this silly house by Monday night, then I haven’t bought a thing.
I might …re-negotiate the deal.
We’ll see…
Yep…
wolfgirl,
I can testify to what you just said.
Everyone here has just been wonderful in expressing their sympathies to my mom’s passing.
Thank you everyone for your kind and beautiful words.
if you’re not prepared to fight, don’t talk politics.. or religion.. or finance.. or.. Well.. it might be best to keep all your opinions to yourself.
“if you’re not prepared to fight, don’t talk politics.. or religion.. or finance.. or.. Well.. it might be best to keep all your opinions to yourself.”
That`s good advise. In real life fights were never a problem for me. But do I ever get my azz kicked on this damn computer.
Funny, I could have sworn real estate was tied to finance.
I don’t understand this “share losses” business. Is the FDIC covering losses or isn’t it?
WASHINGTON – Regulators on Friday shut down a small Florida bank, bringing to 119 the number of U.S. bank failures this year amid mounting loan defaults.
The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. took over Horizon Bank, based in Bradenton, Fla., with $187.8 million in assets and $164.6 million in deposits. Bank of the Ozarks, based in Little Rock, Ark., agreed to assume the assets and deposits of the failed bank.
In addition, the FDIC and Bank of the Ozarks agreed to share losses on $150.4 million of Horizon Bank’s loans and other assets.
Linkey
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100910/ap_on_bi_ge/us_bank_closures
Lets say you agree to take take over this bank, lock stock and barrel, and it’s you who has to collect on that failed bank’s mortgages.
Well, you’re kinda worried that people won’t pay and you’ll lose money. Why should you take the risk? You don’t really need the headaches.
But the FDIC really really wants you (or someone) to take this stuff so they offer to share some percentage (maybe 80%) of the losses IF people default on the debts. They will share the loss with you… IF…
Thanks Wipeout! I’ve been reading HBB for years and rarely comment. This bad economy has affected me, my family and friends and we need to get rid of the fat cats in Washington. They are the ruling class and we are the peasants. I’d like to throw all of them out! I’m ready for the economy to go down and correct itself. I’ll just grow my own food and survive by my own wits. Maybe then buying a home will be a good idea. I’m happy to be renting.
“They are the ruling class and we are the peasants.”
It’s beginning to look a lot like 1620 again, but with no new continent available as an escape route.
Suddenly Brazil is looking better all the time.
“Suddenly Brazil is looking better all the time.”
For sure
Memo: Remember to ask Rio if she is cute, single and rich and has a thing for weird old men.
America wasn’t a “new continent” in 1620 either, but the Europeans brought weapons which were a quantum leap over what the locals had.
That won’t work anymore. The present locals are very heavily armed.
I don’t comment often either. I’ve learned a lot here. That’s way I still read it. That and the people.
Unlike olden times, the ruling class has air power.
So true K-bill….
hey georgia..
see that line at the lower right of someone’s comment that says “Reply to comment.” ? Click on that to reply to wipeout (or whoever).
“I’ve been reading HBB for years and rarely comment.”
…..righhhht…. different name, same person, same rusty worn out rhetoric.
Georgiagirl
Yeah, we’ve been hit big time too. Intel’s outsourcing changed our lives, and not for the better. We are paying rents too.
When we finally get our toe tag house, I’m growing a garden, and planting some fruit trees. Not only will we save lots of dough, we’ll know what’s in our food. Chemical balls don’t appeal to me.
Your state is beautiful and for the most part, the people are really good and decent. I call it God’s country, because the trees are something else.
Again, welcome aboard. Thanks for dipping your toes into HBB lake. See, it’s warm in here.
“When we finally get our toe tag house, I’m growing a garden, and planting some fruit trees”
wipeout, I sincerely hope that you guys get your place.
Agreed, time to hit the reset button. Very much tired of watching the Republicans versus Democrats side show.
we need to get rid of the fat cats in Washington
Wrong the fat cats are on Wall Street
Puppets are in Washington
I doubt that Americans will start blowing money just because another crook got elected. Give me a break
Deleveraging Looks Like: Consumer Spending Declines Again In August What
This year, consumers — particularly upper-income Americans — started to spend again in May. However, the spending spurt was short-lived, with August spending returning to 2009 levels among both upper-income and middle-/lower-income consumers. In a sense, the current direction of consumer spending seems to be just the reverse of spending during this time a year ago.
This year’s somewhat disappointing back-to-school spending has been followed by few added expenditures for Labor Day. Consumer spending for the week before Labor Day averaged $61 per day — the same as during the prior week, and down from a $70 average during the same week in 2009.
Spending prospects for the next couple of months do not look much better, with Americans peppered by economic pessimism as the midterm elections approach. Many Republicans are talking about a lack of economic improvement. And the president is promoting new efforts to get the weak economy going. Neither party seems to hold out much hope for a significantly better jobs outlook or a surge in economic growth anytime soon.
On the other hand, no matter what happens in the elections, Americans could go on a post-election holiday spending spree. It just may be that a newly elected Congress could create some sorely missing economic optimism about the outlook for 2011.
I stayed home over the Labor Day weekend and didn’t spend a dime except for the usual weekly grocery shopping. I’m happy to have participated in the non-bailout of the retail and travel sectors!
* OPINION
* SEPTEMBER 10, 2010
From Zombie Banks to Zombie Mortgages?
Japan misallocated capital during its lost decade. How the U.S. can avoid its mistakes.
…
The U.S. shouldn’t be smug. Prolonged economic distress could undermine the attitudes responsible for U.S. economic dynamism. For example, the political winds are shifting against immigration even as labor-force growth slows because of an aging population and the leveling out of women’s participation in the work force. The crisis has demonstrated that too much U.S. wealth is tied up in houses. The mortgages that financed them now clog financial institutions’ balance sheets, starving new businesses of credit, much as Japanese banks kept lending to “zombie” companies at the expense of more promising firms. The U.S. risks perpetuating this misallocation of capital by maintaining extensive federal support for mortgages.
…
Video: ‘Bernanke bad for US, Fed head’s plan kills recovery’
YouTube RT
(You’re gonna have to lift your lazy arse and use Google to find it, cause I can’t figure out how to link it…)
Bernanke bad for US, Fed head’s plan kills recovery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_KbQ99d6Uc
Amazing how much brighter the picture became since just one week ago!
Policy Options Dwindle as Economic Fears Grow
Ed Nacional
By PETER S. GOODMAN
Published: August 28, 2010
THE American economy is once again tilting toward danger. Despite an aggressive regimen of treatments from the conventional to the exotic — more than $800 billion in federal spending, and trillions of dollars worth of credit from the Federal Reserve — fears of a second recession are growing, along with worries that the country may face several more years of lean prospects.
On Friday, Ben Bernanke, chairman of the Fed, speaking in the measured tones of a man whose word choices can cause billions of dollars to move, acknowledged that the economy was weaker than hoped, while promising to consider new policies to invigorate it, should conditions worsen.
Yet even as vital signs weaken — plunging home sales, a bleak job market and, on Friday, confirmation that the quarterly rate of economic growth had slowed, to 1.6 percent — a sense has taken hold that government policy makers cannot deliver meaningful intervention. That is because nearly any proposed curative could risk adding to the national debt — a political nonstarter. The situation has left American fortunes pinned to an uncertain remedy: hoping that things somehow get better.
…
Oh, if you haven’t got the TRUE picture of the jobs market it’s no fault of yours. The BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics) phonied the jobs picture the week by estimating the data from 9 states including California. They claimed that the short labor day week impaired their data. It’s ALL phony and I don’t believe any of it, especially if Turbo Tax Timmy has any thing to do with the data.
you, my friend, have the correct information. it’s all been rigged to the upside. after the drones buy into the “cheap” stocks and the market gets a boost, then the “revised” data will be released, saying that the numbers of unemployed were greater than expected. By then, the big money will have sold out to the working man.
Like I’ve said
At some point the elite will want to see a collapse so they can buy up everything and cement their power.
Bankers via a series of inflation and deflation will eventually own everything.
Get Ready, We’re Going To Cut Taxes, Increase Spending, And Blow Out The Deficit
The Bush tax cut debate isn’t Obama winning and Republicans losing, but rather a compromise where everyone gets to keep their tax cuts.
In the event of that compromise, the Democrats are likely to get a lot of their new fiscal stimulus measures passed, including new infrastructure spending, in an effort to balance out what might otherwise be perceived as a Republican victory.
This way, Democrats can say they cut middle class taxes and put American laborers back to work on infrastructure projects. Republicans can say they got everyone tax breaks, including the more wealthy elements of the party, and blame the President for the increased spending.
In this scenario, the only loser is the deficit, which will increase as a result of all the new fiscal stimulus.
this scenario, the only loser is the deficit, which will increase as a result of all the new fiscal stimulus.
This is exactly what they want
BB will just purchase more treasuries.
Here’s Who To Invest In If The GOP Wins Big In November
Let’s say the Republicans take everything in November, what will it mean for your portfolio? This is an easy call to make. Expect a dramatic roll back of the leftward policies the country has adopted over the last two years, and a sudden revival of the industries that have suffered as a result. In fact, if you look at the charts below, many of the stocks I am suggesting have already started to discount a conservative win.
Big oil companies will be huge winners. American oil imports from the Middle East will accelerate, where the industry earns 80% of its profits. That will bring peak oil sooner, easily taking crude over $100/barrel quickly, and eventually to $150 or $200. Restrictions on both onshore and offshore drilling will get rolled back to their Bush era laissez faire levels, cutting costs and boosting profitability. You want to own Chevron (CVX), ExxonMobile (XOM), Conoco Phillips (COP), and of course, BP (BP). The drilling and service companies, like Transocean (RIG) and Diamond Offshore (DO), should do spectacularly well.
http://www.neurosoftware.ro/finance/insurance/economy/heres-who-to-invest-in-if-the-gop-wins-big-in-november/
I don’t think it makes any difference who is Congress. Oil and other natural resources are becoming more scarce and their prices will go up.
Over-indebtedness, and monetary policy of the central banks just about assure this.
Unless the world economy takes a nose-dive, then gas and petroleum products will be in demand and the big suppliers will be making money.
If there are restrictions, it won’t cut into profits, it will simply mean that we, the consumer, will pay a higher price.
I expect all consumer related products to go up in price and all “asset” related products to go down, that includes real estate.
Yeah I think oil industry stocks will do well regardless.
Problem is, stock investing is for the long term - at least ten years. Seemingly, partisan politics is getting more in the anger stage and I fear radical regime changes every eight years. The investing climate loves stability in policies and many businesses cannot survive without long term assurance. That is probably why every big corporation has powerful lobbyists and even people inside government. Hence Hank Paulson, TTT, and co on from Government Sux.
Food for thought:
WAYNE ALLYN ROOT: Overwhelm the system
Barack Obama is no fool. He is not incompetent. To the contrary, he is brilliant. He knows exactly what he’s doing. He is purposely overwhelming the U.S. economy to create systemic failure, economic crisis and social chaos — thereby destroying capitalism and our country from within.
Barack Obama is my college classmate ( Columbia University , class of ‘83). As Glenn Beck correctly predicted from day one, Obama is following the plan of Cloward & Piven, two professors at Columbia University . They outlined a plan to socialize America by overwhelming the system with government spending and entitlement demands. Add up the clues below. Taken individually they’re alarming. Taken as a whole, it is a brilliant, Machiavellian game plan to turn the United States into a socialist/Marxist state with a permanent majority that desperately needs government for survival … and can be counted on to always vote for bigger government. Why not? They have no responsibility to pay for it.
– Universal health care. The health care bill had very little to do with health care. It had everything to do with unionizing millions of hospital and health care workers, as well as adding 15,000 to 20,000 new IRS agents (who will join government employee unions). Obama doesn’t care that giving free health care to 30 million Americans will add trillions to the national debt. What he does care about is that it cements the dependence of those 30 million voters to Democrats and big government. Who but a socialist revolutionary would pass this reckless spending bill in the middle of a depression?
– Cap and trade. Like health care legislation having nothing to do with health care, cap and trade has nothing to do with global warming. It has everything to do with redistribution of income, government control of the economy and a criminal payoff to Obama’s biggest contributors. Those powerful and wealthy unions and contributors (like GE, which owns NBC, MSNBC and CNBC) can then be counted on to support everything Obama wants. They will kick-back hundreds of millions of dollars in contributions to Obama and the Democratic Party to keep them in power. The bonus is that all the new taxes on Americans with bigger cars, bigger homes and businesses helps Obama “spread the wealth around.”
– Make Puerto Rico a state. Why? Who’s asking for a 51st state? Who’s asking for millions of new welfare recipients and government entitlement addicts in the middle of a depression? Certainly not American taxpayers. But this has been Obama’s plan all along. His goal is to add two new Democrat senators, five Democrat congressman and a million loyal Democratic voters who are dependent on big government.
– Legalize 12 million illegal immigrants. Just giving these 12 million potential new citizens free health care alone could overwhelm the system and bankrupt America . But it adds 12 million reliable new Democrat voters who can be counted on to support big government. Add another few trillion dollars in welfare, aid to dependent children, food stamps, free medical, education, tax credits for the poor, and eventually Social Security.
– Stimulus and bailouts. Where did all that money go? It went to Democrat contributors, organizations (ACORN), and unions — including billions of dollars to save or create jobs of government employees across the country. It went to save GM and Chrysler so that their employees could keep paying union dues. It went to AIG so that Goldman Sachs could be bailed out (after giving Obama almost $1 million in contributions). A staggering $125 billion went to teachers (thereby protecting their union dues). All those public employees will vote loyally Democrat to protect their bloated salaries and pensions that are bankrupting America . The country goes broke, future generations face a bleak future, but Obama, the Democrat Party, government, and the unions grow more powerful. The ends justify the means.
– Raise taxes on small business owners, high-income earners, and job creators. Put the entire burden on only the top 20 percent of taxpayers, redistribute the income, punish success, and reward those who did nothing to deserve it (except vote for Obama). Reagan wanted to dramatically cut taxes in order to starve the government. Obama wants to dramatically raise taxes to starve his political opposition.
With the acts outlined above, Obama and his regime have created a vast and rapidly expanding constituency of voters dependent on big government; a vast privileged class of public employees who work for big government; and a government dedicated to destroying capitalism and installing themselves as socialist rulers by overwhelming the system.
Add it up and you’ve got the perfect Marxist scheme — all devised by my Columbia University college classmate Barack Obama using the Cloward and Piven Plan.
Not buying it. Obama is as brilliant as Larry Summers is. Just saying it doesn’t make it so. I think he’s bookish smart but lacks the street smart and gritty leadership so he comes off as incompetent. Is anyone surprised at all that he follows left’s play book? It was Bush who was truly stupid. It was Bush who bailed out the democratic operatives in Wallstreet to the detriment of his own base.
I agree with butters.
And you all suffer from chronic Obama Derangement Syndrome.
No we don’t. However you sound like a sheeple.
It’s a constructive criticism based on his performance to date.
No.It’s a red meat commentary by an empty cranium, for empty craniums.
Art is just exeter, using a different alias. One of many.
LMAO…. of all people accusing someone else of having an alias. You really don’t have any credibility do you…..
Folks,
Exeters many alias’es include…… …..”Lingus” which I dumped back in 2006.
Art,
Keep exposing them for what they are. :thumbs up:
It was Bush who bailed out the democratic operatives in Wallstreet to the detriment of his own base.
That’s another lie that needs to stop. I agree that Bush was and is an idiot. Many of us were disappointed to find that he was a bigger spender than prior Democrats. He wanted to join hands. In years 5 and 6, we had hoped that the Republicans would pull in the reigns.
They didn’t do much, so we BOOTED them out. We couldn’t see the difference between R and D, so it was the only we to send the message. However, and here’s the big however, it was a DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS that gave all the bank money away.
IF you go back and check, it was a party-line vote and the Dem’s voted FOR the TARP.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying, and in fact you are saying the Dem’s did this and BUSH betrayed us. If that is so, you are correct.
What I usually hear is that BUSH proposed and pushed the Bailout through the Congress and it was the REPs that did the deed.
ALL the wasted money has been the Dem’s spending as much as they can for the benefit of their cronies.
TARP was corporate welfare deliverd to the corporatists by the GOP elite of Bush, Paulson, et al.
Sept 19, 2008 Paulson yell fire in a crowded theater and requested 700 billion *specifically* to buy worthless mortgage paper from the very banks that profited from the Great Housing Fraud via George Bushes “Low Down Payment Act” and “No Down Payment Act”. Had these two corporate welfare laws not been written by Bush, there would be no housing bubble or TARP.
The last time we had a corporatist 8 year presidency, we ended up with the S&L debacle.
Why is it that corporatists are always running the show when these housing finance related debacles occur? Why?
Exeter,
You seem to be blind in the left eye. Yes, Bush was a dolt who was stage-managed by the neo-cons and the corporatists. Obama can speak a coherent sentence (no small thanks to his teleprompter) and he’s successfully resisted - so far - the neo-con chickenhawks’ shrill demands for WWIII. But he’s every bit as beholden to the corporatists as Bush was.
Good story, but totally implausible. If Obama were as brilliant as asserted, why would he surround himself with so many brilliant rivals who could potentially stand in his way?
I will give you that he is a lot smarter than W, Palin, etc…particularly to start out with a large stable of smart advisers.
I agree with you W and Palin were and are intellectually lazy. Honestly though did Bush have dumber advisers than Obama? I don’t think so. They all come from the same Ivy league with a different ideological bent. I never found Larry Summers to be that brilliant although Media keeps on telling me he is “always brilliant.” Then again I don’t know Larry’s IQ and I try to look at the results produced by his decisions and actions. With that I must say Larry Summers and Geithner both are pretty thick headed.
“always brilliant” …”pretty thick headed”
There is no inherent contradiction between brilliance and thick-headedness; in fact, there may even be a causal link, as those who go through life being right about almost everything naturally develop a level of self-confidence that veers into the realm of irrational certainty about the correctness of their perceptions. This makes them easily fooled by randomness.
Over the course of history, there have been many instances where brilliant people were spectacularly wrong about the financial situation. For one historical example, consider Irving Fisher:
“It appears the stock market has achieved a permanently high plateau,” he noted, around the time of the Great Stock Market Crash of 1929 and the onset of the Great Depression.
For a second, consider Sir Isaac Newton, inventor of the calculus, and father of the Newtonian paradigm, who managed to lose his personal fortune by catching himself a falling knife during the collapse phase of the South Sea Bubble:
“I can calculate the movement of the stars, but not the madness of men,” he lamented in the aftermath.
Try not to catch yerself a falling knife.
“America is the most grandiose experiment the world has seen, but, I am afraid, it is not going to be a success.” — Sigmund Freud
“I agree with you W and Palin were and are intellectually lazy. Honestly though did Bush have dumber advisers than Obama? I don’t think so”
“I don’t THINK so” !?! Oh….That figures about right…
18 low-life common CRIMINALS and THUGS from Saudia Arabia and 1 from United Arab Emirates with a few plane tickets, some box cutters, hijack our jets and whack the World Trade Center and kill 3k plus. Notice the word Criminals.
Previously, Cheney and the Big Oil gang are caught seriously studying and going over old Saddams Iraqi National Petroleum Companys projection figures in the old Exective Building basement for reserves and current contacts.
Meanwhile, the Neocons, those lovable certified lunatics from the Iraqi National Congress and other associated Idiots across the street and around town are demanding Bush to avenge the huge and dirty Poppy’s Bush face masonic at the footsteps of a Baghdad Hotel…for reasons and designs …all of their own.
From over at the Pentagon, Rummy is chomping at the bit to attack and destroy 1/2 of the known world and imprison the rest. He figures…somebody HAS to die.
Whilst at the Justice Department and the think tanks…
Yeah right….advisors
Ooops…did I mention Condi “Supertanker” Rice and the Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith, Richard Perle and the Faux News mischief makers ?
Advisors my A$$
Did I mention my old lunatic Lt., a retired general that held the title of National Director and Deputy National Security Advisor for combating terrorism.
Yeah, he wasn’t crazy enough for that White House, so they shipped him over to Faux News and the INC.
Advisors
What about Rove?
word is he’s still running the country.
Good Lord, did I miss Karl and Scooter ?
Thanks joey.
Needless to say, the entire Bush White House and their associates were all Criminally Insane with their Axis of Evil wet dreams and BS…Or …Were they ?
Of course this was also a very well planned distraction for it allow small time crooks from Main Street to Wall Street to Rape and Pillage the land while everyone else was all tangled up in duct tape, plastic and looking for WMD’s under their beds.
May those Freedom Fries Wave Forever…From Sea to Shinning Sea.
America…you’ve BEEN had…Again.
(BigTime)
Nuff said…
Ooops…(just plays the plays the music from “The Sting”)
By this logic, Ronald Reagan was a raging Marxist! It was Ronald Reagan that first expanded deficits into the 100 billion dollar range, after articulating a philosophy of supply side economics. Afterward, David Stockman said they realized they could kill the FDR safety net by so indebting the country nothing could be done. Now you say just the opposite; create so much debt that something MUST be done. Problem is, if the government has no capacity to do anything (e.g., it can’t pay the social workers, medical doctors, and so forth), then, all the desire in the world to do something won’t much matter.
IAT
Thanks, Joey. Who knew?
you did it again.. created a new thread.
I’ll catch on someday.
Charade.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100911/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_iceland_financial_crisis
The people of Iceland are demanding accountability for their “leaders” who allowed the plutocrats to collapse their banking system. What a concept - compare their anger and activism to their zombified American counterparts, who are too busy watching American Idol and stuffing themselves on Doritos to get seriously riled up about Wall Street’s screw job on the rest of the country.
C’mon! We’re Americans! We know that the rich are morally superior to the rest of us and we deserve whatever they do to us.
Also, we know we live in a truly classless society, because any of us ** could easily become the next Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, or sports star earning the megabucks.
** Actual chances of this happening to you personally are pretty low, but keeping the hope alive is critical to protecting the rich as a class.
—
C’mon! We’re Americans! We know that the rich are morally superior to the rest of us and we deserve whatever they do to us.
..** Actual chances of this happening to you personally are pretty low..
7.8 Million millionaires in the USA in 2009.
305 million population (2009)
So the chances are.. about 1 in 40?
You may as well keep buying those lottery tickets… the odds are so much better.
i think i screwed that up..
305 million population counted everyone.. babies, etc. There were 75M children under age 17 in ‘09. They are not competing for the big money, so we gotta subtract them.
Figure 230 million working people, so the odds are better than 1 in 30 of someone becoming a millionaire..
How many of those people were born into rich families and inherited the family biz?
i’d guess that 90% of them have neither the desire to work as hard as Dad, nor have even a fraction of his skills, experience, creativity, stamina and the drive he had, nor do they really know anything about making or preserving money.. Probably have no love for the business itself (love is required)… and they destroy the business while pissing away the family fortune. If not them, then the next generation, or the next.
So, that money is eventually up for grabs.
Wait, Bill Gates & Warren Buffet have got only a lousy $1 million each? Is that what you’re saying, Joey/Eddie?
Try again. How many people here will go from working-schmoe to Bill-Gates type richness vs how many will dream of the same?
—
Figure 230 million working people, so the odds are better than 1 in 30 of someone becoming a millionaire..
I see we need to readjust the numbers.
I’ll estimate there are at least 100 million people like Nudge who don’t believe it’s possible to get rich. They will never try, and may as well be removed from the pool of competition.
So..
230 - 100 = 130
130 million potential candidates. 7.8 million millionaires.
The odds of becoming a millionaire have fallen to about 1 in 17.
One more time Eddie, the level of wealth of Bill & Warren is way beyond the millionaire level.
Wow, “millionaire” is a term that hasn’t been bandied about much since Gilligan’s Island aired. Must be inflation.
According to Forbes, Bill Gates’ net worth is $53 billion and Warren Buffet’s is $47 billion.
So what are the chances of your average schmoe getting there? Gotta keep the hopium alive.
—
I see we need to readjust the numbers.
“REYKJAVIK, Iceland – A committee of Icelandic lawmakers split Saturday over whether to recommend an unprecedented prosecution of former leaders for failing to prevent the country’s financial meltdown.”
Let’s just hope this represents the lead for the rest of the world’s aggrieved populaces who were the victims of high crimes and felonies committed by those in control of the financial system (you know who I mean: The folks who could see nothing coming).
..(you know who I mean: The folks who could see nothing coming)..
Yeah, i do.
But who are these “victims of high crimes and felonies”?
“victims of high crimes and felonies”
We, the People.
Oh.. you’re counting self inflicted wounds.
Yeah, “We the People” installed these con men in office and tolerated their malfeasance. And millions of “we the people” were in on the fraud, signing their names on mortgages they couldn’t afford out of a greed-fueled sense of entitlement.
Those names ring a bell!
Kabul Bank Too Big to Fail?
By Jed Babbin on 9.8.10 @ 6:09AM
Messrs. Sherkhan Farnood and Khalilullah Frozi — the top executives at Afghanistan’s largest banking institution, Kabul Bank — were fired from their jobs last week by the leaders of the nation’s central bank when a run on their bank threatened its continued existence.
Kabul Bank apparently has accumulated losses in excess of $300 billion. Which, of course, leaves it as solvent as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Though we have no report that the Afghanistan central bank leader is named either Abuben Behrnanki or Hafizullah Pahlson, Kabul Bank is now in the “too big to fail” category.
…
Basel rules to hit ‘too big to fail’ banks harder
‘Too Big To Fail’ banks will be subject to harsher capital requirements than their less systemically important peers under the new rules on capital ratios set to be agreed this weekend.
By Harry Wilson, Financial Services Correspondent
Published: 9:01AM BST 09 Sep 2010
…
Executives with criminal records slip through FHA crackdown, documents show
By Brian Grow
Center for Public Integrity
Sunday, September 12, 2010
A crackdown on reckless mortgage lenders by the Federal Housing Administration has failed to root out several executives with criminal records whose firms continue to do business with the agency in violation of federal law, according to government documents, court records and interviews.
The get-tough campaign has also been hamstrung because, even when the FHA can ban mortgage companies for wrongdoing or an excessive default rate, the agency does not have the legal power to stop their executives from landing jobs at other lenders, or open new firms.
After the collapse of the home loan market, the FHA launched an effort aimed at reducing losses on mortgages it insures by weeding reckless lenders out of the program.
But documents and interviews reveal that more than 34,000 home loans have been issued over the past two years by a dozen FHA-approved lenders that have employed people who were convicted of felonies, banned from the securities industry or previously worked for firms barred by the agency.
More than 3,000 of those loans, about 9 percent, were seriously delinquent or already a claim on the FHA insurance fund as of June 30. That’s nearly triple the rate for all loans made by FHA lenders over the past two years, about 3.4 million.
Compared with other regulators, critics of the FHA say it rarely cracks down on company executives. “In the securities industry, you bar people for life. You don’t see that a lot with the FHA,” says Mark Calabria, director for financial regulation studies at the Cato Institute.
…
Ben Bernanke was Wrong
Will the old purpose of central banking come back soon, that of “leaning against the wind,” or taking away the punch bowl before the party gets out of control, rather than constantly respiking the punch bowl the morning after a night of bubblelicious debauchery, to provide stimulus for a “hair of the dog” hangover cure?
Swiss summit will shape future of banking industry
By Howard Schneider
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, September 11, 2010
The coterie of central bankers and government regulators gathering in the small Swiss city of Basel this weekend doesn’t know whether you’ll need to buy a car next year or borrow money to run a business.
But the new rules they have written over the last few months may well determine whether those loans can be made, how much they will cost - and perhaps how quickly the economy overall will expand.
…
“If you are in a period of rising house prices and people feel wealth and want a loan and to participate in a boom and suddenly the regulator says, oops, this is above-average growth and we need to put a stamp on it - that is not the way to win first prize in a popularity contest,” said Bernhard Speyer, head of banking and financial regulation for Deutsche Bank.
…
The good news:
No double dip seems likely.
The bad news:
- The first dip is not over yet.
- No double dip means interest rates will soon start climbing back towards normal levels, potentially popping the bond bubble, knocking up mortgage rates, and leading to the next substantial leg down in U.S. housing prices.
World markets rise as double-dip fears ease
By CARLO PIOVANO (AP) – 5 days ago
LONDON — World stock markets advanced modestly Monday as investors rode momentum from Friday, when an upbeat U.S. jobs report eased fears that the global economy could slip back into recession.
With Wall Street closed for a holiday, however, trading was expected to remain light.
Markets took heart after official data last week showed private employers in the U.S. added 67,000 jobs in August, more than analysts expected.
The figure bolstered optimism that the U.S. will maintain a slow but steady recovery from last year’s recession and avoid another economic contraction later this year.
By mid-afternoon in Europe, Britain’s FTSE 100 index was up 0.3 percent at 5,446.17, Germany’s DAX was 0.3 percent higher at 6,153.31 and France’s CAC-40 was up 0.3 percent at 3,684.20. Asian indexes closed higher and trading on Wall Street was to remain shut for Labor Day weekend after closing higher on Friday.
With most major governments reining in economic stimulus measures and many pushing through austerity spending cuts to reduce deficits, investors worry the global economy would be pushed into a double dip recession, particularly as the U.S. slows down quickly.
Because the U.S. economy is the world’s largest and consumer spending there accounts for a fifth of global economic activity, the stronger-than-expected jobs data on Friday helped calm investors’ frayed nerves after weeks of worrying indicators.
“The renewed flight to safety we have witnessed over the past month is overdone and risks an equally large reversal when the worries over a double dip subside,” analysts from Rabobank said in a report.
…
Afghanistan’s troubled bank
House of Karzai
A bank run exposes more murky financial and political dealings
Sep 9th 2010 | Kabul
PALM JUMEIRAH, the giant palm-shaped peninsula in the Persian Gulf, is famous for its luxury homes. In Kabul one frond is known as Little Afghanistan because so many of the country’s political and business elite have set up there. Mahmoud Karzai, a brother of the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, is a prominent figure there. Luckily for him, he had help paying for it. As with other luminaries, the bill was picked up by ordinary Afghans who put money into Kabul Bank, a scandal-wracked institution of which the brother is the third-biggest shareholder.
…
Models tell us more than hindsight
By Tim Harford
Published: September 10 2010 22:41 | Last updated: September 10 2010 22:41
According to my esteemed colleague Gideon Rachman, economists should be swept off their thrones by historians. Economists have had far too strong a stranglehold on the levers of power, he claims. They think they are scientists. They think they can foretell the future. They are wrong: “pseudo-scientists”, “peddling brash certainties”. Historians such as Gideon and Professor Niall Ferguson, hitherto relegated to backwaters such as the FT’s op-ed page, should at last be paid a bit of attention.
In pondering how to respond, I suffered an acute shortage of brash certainty. Gideon is quite right about the importance of history. When it comes to economics, however, the chief source of brash certainties appears to be Gideon, who wouldn’t know an economic model if it paraded down a catwalk at him.
I know as little about history as Gideon knows about economics, but no doubt he is right to suggest that an important role of the historian is to emphasise the knotty particularity of time and place, and the difficulty of producing sweeping scientific laws that accurately describe a complex social world. Economists, sociologists, psychologists and anthropologists should appreciate this just as keenly. The best do. Many do not and, sadly, they are over-represented in the media. Perhaps this is the reason Gideon misunderstands the task and the methods of economics.
Gideon Rachman responds:
He argues that while economic edifices are always collapsing, “buildings constructed according to the laws of physics seem to stand”. This is an odd statement. Buildings constructed according to the laws of physics have a habit of falling down. Henry Petroski, engineer and author of Success through Failure, observes that structural engineers tend to learn by constructing ever more ambitious structures. When one of them falls down or wobbles, engineers figure out what was wrong with their models. Sometimes the results are tragic: when the innovative Malpasset dam cracked thanks to inadequate geological modelling, nearly 400 people died. Sometimes they are delicious: the award-winning Kemper Arena collapsed, with no loss of life, just 24 hours after hosting the American Institute of Architects Convention. From his riverside eyrie, I think Gideon can just see the famous wobbly bridge across the Thames. Is this really a damning indictment of the laws of physics?
…
Google “Teton dam” if you want to see what happens when math models are used beyond their limits….
I got my MA in applied math back in 1977. Much of the coursework was left-over physics classes but I did study math modeling as applied to things like highway design. The problem as I see it is that many other forms of human endevour have what I call “physics envy”. They would like to have a simple set of equations which would give them the ability to predict the future. Unfortunately subjects such as economics are sufficiently complicated that any attempts to make math models involve simplifications that render the models full of errors. I recall from microecon class that the text simply assumed that the curves had a derivative everywhere - what mathematicians call “analytic functions”. And yet this is a simply enormous simplifying assumption. Many of the interesting phenomina in physics happen when functions are not analytic: points of singularity e.g. black holes. I am uneducated in modern macroeconomic theory but am predisposed to think that there are sufficient simplifying assumptions in their models that they are rendered almost useless.
More haircuts, less bailouts…
Basel should stand firm on capital
Published: September 9 2010 22:00 | Last updated: September 9 2010 22:00
All eyes are on Basel as bank regulators enter the final stretch in the quest to create new global capital standards. This Sunday the world’s central bankers and heads of bank supervision meet to finalise a key element of the package: the level of the minimum capital ratios. It is an opportunity to redeem the Basel Committee for its unwise earlier concessions to the banking industry and to present leaders at the forthcoming G20 summit in Seoul with a stringent proposal.
The new ratios have yet to be definitively pinned down, but reports suggest regulators are beginning to converge around a minimum core tier one capital ratio – the ratio of equity and retained earnings to risk-weighted assets – of five per cent. An additional buffer of 2 per cent to 3 per cent, which if breached by banks could restrict dividend pay-outs or bonuses, also seems likely. A further countercyclical buffer may be introduced, as well as a surcharge of 1 or 2 per cent of risk-weighted assets for banks deemed “systemically important”.
These would be a big improvement over the current minimum ratio of 2 per cent – and that on a more permissive definition of core tier one. Some will still see the new ratios as too low. But any level of capital can conceivably be too low if losses are big enough. This is why tier one ratios are only a piece of the puzzle and must be supplemented by schemes forcing haircuts on creditors when shareholders have been wiped out.
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Shake-up set to raise costs of borrowing
By Brooke Masters in London
Published: September 9 2010 19:16 | Last updated: September 9 2010 19:16
Companies could face sharply higher costs for short-term borrowing, including revolving credit and commercial paper, under the banking reform package being finalised by global regulators meeting this weekend in Basel.
The comprehensive capital and liquidity package – known as Basel III – is designed to make banks safer and more resilient and avoid more taxpayer-funded rescues.
Among the provisions are the widely supported “liquidity coverage ratio” which requires banks to hold enough cash and easy-to-sell assets to get through a 30 day crisis.
But bankers and companies are warning that a specific part of that rule could make corporate overdraft facilities and the $200bn commercial paper market prohibitively expensive. That would make companies even more reliant on bank lending at a time when many banks are cutting their balance sheets.
“It is a highly unrealistic approach that would make corporate credit more expensive and complex,” said the Association for Financial Markets in Europe.
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Bond Report
Sept. 10, 2010, 4:38 p.m. EDT
Treasurys decline, adding to weekly losses
By Deborah Levine, MarketWatch
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — Treasury prices declined on Friday, pushing yields up for a third day, with stocks and technical resistance levels guiding action.
Treasurys, which had been higher in European trading hours, posted a weekly loss.
A week ago, the benchmark securities yielded 2.71%. Ten-year yield have increased for three straight weeks.
Yields on 2-year notes (UST2YR 0.57, 0.00, 0.00%) were little changed at 0.57%. That’s up from last Friday, when they ended at 0.51%.
Thirty-year bond yields (UST30Y 3.87, 0.00, 0.00%) rose to 3.87%, up 3 basis points. They’ve risen for three weeks, up from 3.67% a week ago.
“A very, very light day today for the New York Friday trading session should help the shortened holiday summer week come to a graceful close after a very bearish U.S. Treasury week,” said George Goncalves, a bond strategist at Nomura.
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Wow! Am I on the wrong blog? Is this Stormfront light now or something? So just to clarify, it is just because of the “blacks” that this is happening, right? I have a feeling if a minority moved in next to you, you would want to move too…
That is about the most racist thing I have heard here. Pretty much every industrial city in the northeast and midwest went to hell in the last 20 years, and the people with the money moved out. In some of those cities, most of the people without money happen to be minorities - who ended up stuck - and of course with less and less of a tax base, the issues just perpetuate themselves. But in New England there are plenty of old mill towns with the exact same problems occurring with mostly poor white populations. What is their excuse?
I see you’ve met our resident neocon moles.
“Comment by Diogenes (Tampa, Florida)
2010-09-11 08:41:57
Milwaukee, once formerly inhabited by German and Polish immigrants, is now 40% black (”african-american”). I would vacate, too. Whenever there is a proportion greater than about 15%, the city falls into decay. You just can’t support that much “entitlement”.
Wow! Am I on the wrong blog? Is this Stormfront light now or something? So just to clarify, it is just because of the “blacks” that this is happening, right? I have a feeling if a minority moved in next to you, you would want to move too…
That is about the most racist thing I have heard here. Pretty much every industrial city in the northeast and midwest went to hell in the last 20 years, and the people with the money moved out. In some of those cities, most of the people without money happen to be minorities - who ended up stuck - and of course with less and less of a tax base, the issues just perpetuate themselves. But in New England there are plenty of old mill towns with the exact same problems occurring with mostly poor white populations. What is their excuse?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/us/politics/12boehner.html?_r=2&hp=&pagewanted=all
For anyone operating under the sad delusion that voting for the corrupt Establishment GOP in November is going to curb Wall Street’s rapacious looting of Main Street, there’s a thing or two you need to know about Republicrat leader John Boehner, whore of the corporate lobbyists.
I remember hearing stories of him actually handing out cash bribes on the floor from big Tobacco.
That’s our boy!
Greek PM to go ahead with austerity plans amid protests
11 September 2010 Last updated at 23:00 ET
Greek unions have staged mass protests in the city of Thessaloniki against the government’s austerity programme.
Prime Minister George Papandreou, who is attending a trade fair in the city, has said he is not going to give up on his government’s plans.
The protests were largely peaceful but police used tear gas on a small group which broke away from the rally.
Stephanie Holmes reports.
This problem is very easy to solve: LOWER THE TICKET PRICES, AND YOU WILL SELL MORE TICKETS AND BUILD YOUR FAN BASE.
National League West-leading Padres still lacking fan support
San Diego is trailing 10 of the league’s 15 other teams in attendance, averaging fewer than 26,000 fans at home despite playing in one of baseball’s best parks.
September 11, 2010|5:34 p.m.
If they win it,will they come?
The San Diego Padres may be leading the National League West in wins, but they’re trailing 10 of the league’s 15 other teams in attendance, averaging fewer than 26,000 fans at home despite playing in one of baseball’s best ballparks.
And they didn’t even do that well in the 12 games that preceded this weekend’s crucial four-game showdown with the second-place San Francisco Giants, drawing an average of 25,086 against Philadelphia, Colorado and the Dodgers.
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Haven’t the local fans ALREADY paid for their tickets through taxes? I have to ask: was the SD ballpark built with taxpayers’ dollars?
Harry Blackmun’s biggest goof was exempting baseball from the antitrust laws because “it wasn’t a business”.
I might actually like this new fellow….
Indeed, for many Americans, literally every line they fill out on their tax return is information the I.R.S. already has. (If you don’t believe it, try not filling out the “wages” line on your tax return next year and see what happens. You’ll receive a notice that states your wages — and assesses a penalty for not reporting them.)
And yet these same people are forced to spend hundreds of millions of hours and several billion dollars each year preparing and filing their taxes….
With a small adjustment in processing procedures, the revenue service could send you a tax form already filled out with the information it has for you — a Simple Return — rather than a blank tax form. You would simply check the numbers against your W-2 and 1099 and then sign it. That would be it. If you didn’t want to participate, you could just throw the Simple Return away and do your own taxes the old-fashioned way.
- Austan Goolsbee in a 2007 NY Times editorial
Make that a 2006 editorial.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/07/opinion/07goolsbee.html?ref=opinion
Funny ,today I was thinking exactly about what you posted DennisN.
Its pure misery dealing with all the paperwork and receipts and I hate
all the little papers that make up what transpired financially in a given year .
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