The Housing Bubble

The city of Sacramento, where I live is the most racially integrated place I’ve ever lived, both rich and poor neighborhoods. It’s nice, particularly for the kids. But the surrounding suburbs are almost completely white.

“”But the surrounding suburbs are almost completely white.”"

Oh the horrors!

Oh stop being so dramatic, Ernest. I was raised in Detroit, and it was so segregated that there was zero contact between the races, and a lot of fear on both sides. When kids find out that those who look a little different aren’t really different at all, that’s a good thing.

I was raised in Detroit, and it was so segregated that there was zero contact between the races, and a lot of fear on both sides. When kids find out that those who look a little different aren’t really different at all, that’s a good thing.

And I went to the University of Michigan. Talk about a segregated campus. A lot of fear there too.

When I go back to Ann Arbor for Homecoming, I see that the campus is a lot more ethnically diverse than the “fearful white suburbanites/not sure they belong here black urbanites” place I remember. I also see kids of all different hues and nationalities interacting with each other. IMHO, both of these things are good.

Not dramatic - sarcastic

Bully for you. I was raised in Wash DC so what? Speaking of Detroit we could make the following analogous statement.

But Detroit is almost completely black. I think we need to do something about that.

Arizona Slim,

So how’s the boating.. ( I mean -driving- ) down there?

Arizona Slim,

So how’s the boating.. ( I mean -driving- ) down there?

Had .40″ of rain in the Arizona Slim Ranch gauge this morning. That was from midday yesterday’s big storm, which I thought would be followed by a sequel last night. Alas, no after-dark sequels.

“The city of Sacramento, where I live is the most racially integrated place I’ve ever lived, both rich and poor neighborhoods.”

That sounds similar to the experience we had when we lived in Richmond, CA. I don’t expect to ever again live in such a culturally diverse place, unless we either move back or leave the country.

Anyone who blasts really loud rap music to mark their terrotory is abad neighbor, regardless of race. A lack of same is the best thing about the more upper end neighborhoods….the neighbors and the cops don’t put up with that crap in those areas, so you can actually enjoy a nice summer day in peace.

I live in a “diverse” neighborhood. The neighbors are nice, there is little crime, it is certainly safe, but if you want to go read a book on your back porch on a warm sunny day, you are out of luck….the neighbors are competing with each other to see who has the loudest system. Again, it not a racial thing, the white neighbors are louder than the minorities…..they have more to prove I guess. And the loudest systems of all seem to be in the cars driving by…..

Anyone who blasts really loud rap music to mark their terrotory is abad neighbor, regardless of race. A lack of same is the best thing about the more upper end neighborhoods….the neighbors and the cops don’t put up with that crap in those areas, so you can actually enjoy a nice summer day in peace.

This isn’t exactly an upper end nabe. But woe to those who blast loud rap “music” on this block.

Because this is often an indicator of other sorts of crime, I call the perps in to 911. So do a lot of my neighbors.

As for the folks who don’t call, well, we good guys keep an eye on them. And they know it.

Well, to me that mean a neighborhood of teenagers, not necessarily criminals.

Potential Buyer :
There’s a difference?

(Kidding. Kinda. I remember what I was like as a teenager…)

“Well, to me that mean a neighborhood of teenagers, not necessarily criminals.”

In maturity, if not in chronological age.

But do you call 911 if they are blasting nerdcore rap music?

I had mostly thought the car audio craze gave way to wings and muffler tips.

I still pull out the Miami bass CDs once in a while.

But do you call 911 if they are blasting nerdcore rap music?

Heck yes! Why? Because it’s a frickin’ noise disturbance, that’s why!

And, lest you be skeptical of the link between noise and crime, here’s a case study from Elkhart, IN. The author is the city’s mayor, Dick Moore:

Elkhart, Indiana, a town of around 48,000 near the University of Notre Dame, is an anti-noise success story. The city’s anti-noise program relies on active enforcement of noise ordinances to reduce noise. The strict fines from noise enforcement generate revenues to fund a noise enforcement officer and anti-noise publicity. Also, the lessening noise levels have improved the community’s quality of life and reduced crime.

In 2008, I told the Common Council: “We are determined to eradicate noise pollution in our city, from boom boxes, broken mufflers, train whistles, loud motorcycles and other sources by initiating a zero tolerance noise ordinance.”

Police Chief Pflibsen and I recently hired a noise control police officer, Mike Bogart. In 2009, Officer Bogart issued 1,200 tickets, generating more than $273,000 in fines. In two years, noise fines have generated more than $400,000.

The fines not only deter noise and punish noisemakers; they also fund the anti-noise program. Noise fine revenues have been used to equip two Mustangs as unmarked police vehicles as well produce and distribute public service announcements on the hazards of noise.
Fines for noise violators in Elkhart are stiff:

$ 250: first offense
$ 500: second offense
$1000: third offense
$2500: fourth offense

Last year, Elkhart’s noise control officer did more drug busts than any other Elkhart police officer—and he was looking for noise violators, not drugs. Elkhart’s experience demonstrates the strong link between noise, guns, drugs, gangs, and crime.

Elkhart officials are enthusiastic about the anti-noise program. According to Police Chief Pflibsen, “Elkhart’s noise ordinance has had a positive impact on the city’s quality of life.” Tim Balyeat, Elkhart’s assistant police chief, commented that “since the inception of the anti-noise program, Elkhart has become a quieter place to live.”

Bradley Vite, an Elkhart resident who led the campaign to institute the policy, said that “Elkhart’s anti-noise program is a great tool to reduce crime. Elkhart’s anti-noise officers have found meth labs, marijuana, cocaine, weapons, and individuals with outstanding warrants. Noise is a quality of life issue. The actions of the city government and the police have dramatically reduced noise.”

OR you could allow nowhite people to earn “white wages”

OR you could allow nowhite people to earn “white wages”

White guy here. I’m curious about this, as I always thought of this as largely self-inflicted. In my particular field (engineering), success is pretty well merit based, as the skills are difficult to acquire and failure is very costly. In school, I never saw black people in any of the math or engineering courses. In my work life, I never see blacks apply for our jobs, even though they pay well and we really need the help. Does this apply more to unskilled labor? Am I completely oblivious to something? I’m asking in earnest, I do not mean to offend or be controversial.

“Allow?” Yeah, we need to repeal those laws that require businesses to pay non-white employees less than white employees.

It’s this kind of thinking that holds one back. Perception becomes reality.

I never saw black people in any of the math or engineering courses.

I think it’s Erkel. He ruined it for every black child who wanted to study Math and Science. MTV didn’t help it either. The popular black culture heavily exploited by white liberals is as anti intellectual as they come.

I have. Very small percentage, but some.

(Same for women, BTW. In all my undergrad comp sci classes there was only one.)

I can vouch for packman’s observation. I spent ten years teaching developers intermediate to advanced programming skills (mostly C++ / C# / Microsoft). Over that period women were consistently 10% or less of the classes, and those were dominated by Russian, Middle Eastern, and Indian women. I can count the number of black women on one hand, and there was only one or two that really had the chops. For the record though there were very few “white suburban american women” either. There just aren’t many in the field and even fewer when you get to the advanced levels.

The Erkel theory is interesting but I think overall in America the culture does not encourage women to work in software, and black culture even less so. Which is stupid as it’s very good paying work and easier to get into than e.g. medicine.

I bet if you plotted out low performing schools you might see a correlation with race.

Bill in Carolina,

How is the Muslium TV ad being run by Renee Elmers being perceived in North Carolina ?? Just wondering…

I’m a C# programmer, and I see what you see, Ex-Arizonan, which is not mant women in the field. What’s interesting is that I work for a company that has some systems on an IBM mainframe and we do have quite a few women who are mainframe COBOl programmers, which many people would call “old technology”. So the whole IT industry is going backwards to a certain degree.

I’m white, but black from the waist down. I have most of the neighbors fooled.

press-
So you prescribe to the old saying”Once you have black, you never go back.”

I thought it was: Once you go Asian you want go caucasian! lol. One of my best friends is married to a little hottie from China we joke about that all the time.

Lane

Won`t not want. We need grammer check on here!

And here I thought you meant it as an Engrish joke.

In real estate it’s called steering, and highly illegal due to Fed Fair Housing Laws.

Got specifics?

The Fair Housing Act of 1968 outlawed redlining of individual people, however not of neighborhoods. However maybe something came along after that that also outlawed redlining of neighborhoods?

In California, it is called “steering” to pass the test. If someone asks the UHS to pass on a certain neighborhood, or asks about the neighbors it’s “due your own due diligence” time. IIRC, the Fair Housing laws have been revised.

Oh fer’ chrissakes, we can’t even get a leash on NAR to stop them from gorging themselves on pocket listings and getting kickbacks?

I’ll give this a ‘2′ on my Aggravation-Meter.

it is called “steering” ??

Its also called “Block Busting”…

Blockbusting was a business practice of U.S. real estate agents and building developers meant to encourage white property owners to sell their houses at a loss, by fraudulently implying that racial, ethnic, or religious minorities — Blacks, Hispanics, Jews et al. — were moving into their previously racially segregated neighborhood, thus depressing real estate property values.[1] Blockbusting became possible after the legislative dismantling of legally-protected racially-segregated real estate practices after World War II, but by the 1980s it disappeared as a business practice after changes in law and the real estate market.[2]

scdave-
Thanks. Interesting post. Whatever it’s name, we as a buyers have a right to live by whom we prefer. I like a mix of folks, but others might prefer otherwise and that’s their right. I think it comes down to being respectful, clean, decent, civilized neighbors. That’s all I ask for.

Doug…I posted this for Bill in SC but you appear to be in NC..Not wondering about where you stand politically just wondering house this ad is being perceived around the water cooler…

How is the Muslium TV ad being run by Renee Elmers being perceived in North Carolina ?? Just wondering…

Actually, I’ve never seen the ad. I haven’t had a TV in over five years (”Blow up your TV, move to the country…”)

I don’t care a whit for political correctness. I try to deal with facts and reality, regardless of who they please or displease.

Having said that, I have concluded that it is values and IQ that determine whether people are good to live around or not.

I had the misfortune of having a low IQ, sociopathic white family live near me some years ago. These people were a plague on the neighborhood. It was almost a completely white neighborhood in a generally white part of town. There were two black families in that neighborhood. Quiet, law abiding, decent people. I’d prefer to live in a neighborhood filled with blacks like them, rather than in a neighborhood filled with the white sociopaths.

They say that every neighborhood has a sociopath; that if you look at all your neighbors and can’t figure out which one it is - then it’s you.

My neighborhood is an exception though - we have no sociopaths.

press,
You’ve got that right. The banks give a little up, but it’s a facade. I don’t have the time or the interest, but I took a cusory glance at Ca’s programs. The unemployed get to get the can down the road until… (then what?)

Reminds me of “Your scooter will be paid in full! At no cost to you.”
——————————————-
That one is aggravating.

“get to kick” the can… sorry

Bit of a different take. IF… you’ve been at the same employer long term, you’ve PAID into those benefits! Actually the full term is Unemployment ‘insurance’.

Why didn’t we give it to these ppl lump sum? From there what they did, is ‘their’ chosing. ( We are adults you know? )

From DinOR above:
“Bit of a different take. IF… you’ve been at the same employer long term, you’ve PAID into those benefits! Actually the full term is Unemployment ‘insurance’.”

In Florida, the employee pays nothing in to the UE fund; the employer does.

DinOR, in most states, it’s the employer that pays the UI, not the employee.

I think that may actually be ALL states.

Well I admit it was a harsh response, but I *have* heard that narcissism thing before, interjected into topics not clearly related to narcissism.

I guess the narcissism is where Obama chuckles and says “soft on Wall Street? Oh no, not meeeee….I’m wonderful.” I guess the best way to solve this is to debate whether Obama was soft on Wall Street or not.

My answer is that yes, Obama *was* soft on Wall Street, but I’m not sure he’s being narcissistic. Obama and Bush both were soft on Wall Street. When Lehman failed, Bush/Paulson discovered that the big boyz were too big to fail and had to save the rest of them by passing TARP and supporting AIG. Obama had to continue by bailing out Fannie/Freddie, which at least was one step closer to Main Street.

I’d be interested in seeing how things go forward. Summers is out Elizabeth Warren is in; and the bank regulation bill is now law. That says to me that Obama has had it with whiny Wall Street.

I was touched by the dismissive attitude….”I’m amused”, that part. If he had said “hard on wall street, Jeeez we just gave them some trillions” it would have rang better for me.

A ha. Now that makes sense. I would have said “arrogant” or *shudder* “elitist” rather than narcissistic. Oh well.

But to be fair, I have noticed that the President more than once has said that he is “amused” by the Other Side. Maybe he’s just tired of pointing out the half-truths of Rush and Glenn. But “amused” is a really bad choice of words.

Robert Gibbs doesn’t help matters by being smarmy.

Robert Gibbs doesn’t help matters by being smarmy.

Gibbs has no business being a press secratery. He should reunite the band with his brothers and tour again.

I thought there was something wrong with him too.

In sum, I think there must be something not quite normal about anyone who even wants to be a president or a movie star. Not to say that there isn’t something very wrong with me too, I’m just not on display like they are.

BTW, he doesn’t look THAT black to me.

You guys, it’s not about color, it’s about character. W was a piece of work, and “O” is a black Reagan in charisma,imo. I like him, but not in this role.

+1

That 66 number is decreasing with time.. unless i’m mistaken.

Is it guaranteed positively that TARP will ultimately be a loss to taxpayers?

as for depriving the general economy of some interest, we can’t know what would have happened to the economy had they gotten no support.

Well, the $66 has been decreasing due mainly to an “improving” economic outlook. If the economy declines these entities that are scheduled to pay back some may not, and the $66B may go back up some.

In the end - TARP is minuscule compared to the expense of the other stimulus and money creation - in particular the Fed MBS purchases, which were $1.25 trillion direct to Wall Street, with no middleman and no strings attached; only weak statements of “someday we may ask you to buy some of these back”.

“…in particular the Fed MBS purchases, which were $1.25 trillion direct to Wall Street, with no middleman and no strings attached;

Another good example of Welfare for Wall St.

Another good example of Welfare for Wall St.

Kind of a shame that the middle and lower classes spend so much political energy fighting for Wall Street’s table scraps, eh?

packman..
If I buy some MBS from you, am I giving you anything? Do you come out ahead somehow?
Not necessarily. Strictly speaking it’s just a trade… a value for value.

Now, if our contract essentially forces you to buy them back if ever I feel like it enforcing it, who got the shaft.. me or you?

Dude, what you smoking? Do you honestly believe those MBS were worth anywhere close to 100 cents on the dollar, or ever will be in the future? If so, then why the F would the Fed have bought them?

And if you think the banks are going to end up buying them all back (at the same price they sold them for), I’ve got a nice bridge to sell you.

Dude, what you smoking?

Whatever it is, can I have a puff?

Just one? Pretty please with a cherry on top with extra ice cream to take care of my munchies?

The Fed got involved because the secondary mortgage market was paralyzed. Money stopped moving.

Sure, some of this stuff might be worthless crap, which is why the market skidded to a halt. Nobody knew what they were buying and they still can’t be sure.

It’s not low quality MBS that prevents people from buying. Lots of investors prefer to buy high risk/high return garbage. Just give them solid, reliable numbers to work with.

We will have solid, reliable numbers when we have a transparent, free market with fair and meaningful rules that are applied to everyone equally.

When “The Fed” gets involved, you have exactly the opposite.

At least as an REO, they still hold the asset itself. Theoretically, they are in control of when they discharge that asset, and how. If they turned the asset over to you and just guaranteed they would fund your losses, they would basically lose all control, and ability to say “no”. Who do you think banks are, the federal government?

i still dont get the objection.

I buy a REO today for $300K.
3 months from now, it’s worth $250 and the bank reduces my principle by 50K as was agreed.

This costs them absolutely nothing. The home is worth 250 no matter if i bought it or not.

I then pay off a $250K mortgage for the next 30 years, which provides what banks live for.. interest on a loan.

Joe:

The bank loses 2 ways on your deal:

1. They lost $50 that they lent to you.

2. They have realized moral hazard.

IOW, they would have been better off just lending $250k against that $250k house, rather than lending $300k against that $250k house, and then losing that extra $50k.

See, then bank doesn’t actually lose money when the value of YOUR house goes down. It only loses money when you stop paying your mortgage.

big V..
1. They lost $50 that they lent to you…

You own a car. You want to sell it to me.

I have no money so you “lend” me $1,000. I give you an IOU.

The car is worth only $750 next month, and as we agreed, you “refund” me $250.

You take the IOU, scratch off $1,000 and write in $750.

NO money changed hands. It cost you nothing to reduce what I owed you.

I sold 100 cars and got 100 IOUs. The other 99 people just found out that I gave you a break on your IOU. Now I’m not gonna get the income I otherwise would. Now I can’t pay my IOUs either.

Lenders only make money when they are PAID BACK on their loans.

We tried to buy an REO from BofA and have been put on the “ignore” button, even after sending in our self addressed stamp envelope which they requested. They can’t afford the postage to send cash buyers a list? Budget restraints?

Forget it. No REO for us. They can kiss our you know what.

Banks must be overwhelmed with the flood of REOs and to this day have little or no idea what they’re doing.

About 6 months ago I asked a banker at WF about me paying cash for an REO and got a blank stare… suggested I call some 800 info number.

Banks are tops at lending money, but have to be the worst at sales.

We tried to buy an REO from BofA and have been put on the “ignore”

was that in the Thousand Oaks area ?

In fact, at the height of madness I checked briefly for a goof and opting for a ‘40′ ( drops the pymt. by about $50 bucks? )

Yep, even with a 30-year mortgage, the vast majority of the initial payments are interest, and that part still needs to be paid even if it’s an infinite-year mortgage (aka interest only).

jbunniii,

That’s where it all starts and ENDS where I’m concerned. Long before I was even aware there may be a HB forming ( I was quietly rebelling against what I increasingly came to view as a “mortgage scheme” )

After a decade + of faithfully paying on a mort. ( I’d only reduced the prin. amt. owed by about 7 grand! ) I became increasingly disenchanted with the whole program and it’s when I first began investigating mort. ‘acceleration’.

Suffice to say all that’s off the table now and we’re working off a whole new paradigm. Mortgage/Debt = Drugs.

Ummm, staggering under the weight of it?

Ummm, excuse me, but I have a question about the DC market:

It’s a market in which many, if not most of the buyers have federal jobs, right? And, except for the GS-High Number jobs, the feds don’t pay that well.

So, where are people finding the money to buy these expensive DC area houses?

That 30 - 35% probably corresponds to what the DC HELOCers were blowing on 2nd homes in the Finger Lakes four or five years ago. Lots of them for sale now.

- My guess would be that most of the Federal jobs around DC are higher-paying than the average Federal job, since they’re not “field” jobs. Not sure though.

- Not sure the exact percentage but tons of government-paid-for jobs aren’t direct government jobs, but contractors, including tons of military contractors. Since defense spending is up (as one portion), so is the amount of higher-paid contractors.

- Also a lot of it isn’t so much that the jobs pay that well, just that there are a lot more jobs, relative to other areas. The 10 or so counties in a ring around DC all have about 4-5% unemployment right now.

- Additionally population is increasing quite a bit here, at least as of the latest 2009 data; in many cases counties that had flat or even declining populations (e.g. Prince George’s County) saw population start to rise in 2008. Most others are having faster population growth than usual. This is, of course, fed by the government spending growth.

Owning a house here, I’m of course reaping some of this benefit, in the form of prices that are not declining as much as they otherwise would. However I would trade that in a heartbeat if it meant less government growth.

(I didn’t move here for the government, or in anticipation of the government growth - my CA telecom company had a branch here, and all my family is in the east, so I managed a transfer.)

Incidentally - there is an expectation of spending slowdown locally over the next few years, in particular with anticipated defense cutbacks; WaPo had an article on it last week. As such - if/when there’s a second leg down in the housing market, it may hit here harder, or at least as hard, as other areas.

(that response to Arizona Slim’s post)

Thank you for the good reply, packman!

It’s not so much the high pay of the jobs as the job security that goes with it. Even burger flippers (and the subsequent personal trainers) benefit from the government largesse. People feel secure enough to buy a house, so demand is up. What surprises me is that people are able to get credit for these prices…

What surprises me is that people are able to get credit for these prices

You can thank the Fed, Fannie and Freddie, and the FHA for that.

Yes - you are, to a certain extent, subsidizing my home equity. Thanks.

(And … sorry. Seriously. All I can say is - these are not my decisions.)

In Colorado,

Or anyone you have to ‘live’ w/ for that matter? Right now, I see your age as the biggest component in making the buy/rent decision.

Sure, int. rates, prices location all ‘matter’ but if you’re my age ( 50+ ) what’s the fricken point? Younger folks.., not nearly as cut & dried?

Agreed, but one can learn a lot if one listens and refrains from doing the talking. For instance, I have learned that I would never want to trade places in life with any of my coworkers. Seriously.

For instance, I have learned that I would never want to trade places in life with any of my coworkers. Seriously.

Reminds me of that old tale about the Tree of Troubles. It involves a group of people who were invited to put all of their troubles into a bag and hang them on a tree.

Then the group was invited to check out everyone else’s bag of troubles. After careful scrutiny, no one decided to trade his bag for any of the others.

Shall we start an HBB Uhaul fund for you? Or will a cargo plane be required?

Sure! I’ll donate them to the thieves and liars who have ruined this country when we kick them out.

ECO - I am sad to read your view /understanding of America. Please remember every country has thieves and liars … we get a bad rep since we were the biggest power.

Americans are generally good (as I believe all humans are) but the common man has been relegated to a life of peonage through a coercive mix of government and business spurred by the FED. I guess humans have always stolen from each other - at least now we mainly steal one’s production and not their primordial bodies.

It’s top tier hot money, which could care less about the cost of gas or cupcakes. Your taxes at work. This is why we had to save the banks.

No. The only thing that could make someone sell gold is a clown with a sign on the side of the road in front of a pawn shop.

+1 And it WORKS too!

You have to cover children up to 26 years old
You have to cover grandchildren if you’re they live with you

26 years old are still considered dependents under the new health plan..think of the social ramfications our kids are such LOSERS THAT WE NOW HAVE TO COVER THEM TO AGE 26,because they cant take care of themselves,,…yes, they are setting up our middle class standard of living to equate mexico’s.s ,furthermore all insurance companies have stopped issuing policy to kids under 19…thanks obama now you have created a crisis and are allowing the health care industry to raise rates 30% across the board….to the few of us that actually pay for our coverage…..

I kinda agree…. 26-year-old dependents?
I’d call them losers!

thanks obama now you have created a crisis and are allowing the health care industry to raise rates 30% across the board….to the few of us that actually pay for our coverage….

There will be fewer and fewer people who will be able to afford these rising costs. Which are for rising for no other reason than “Because we can!” That’s the motto of our health care industry, after all.

Can costs be lowered in health care? I happen to think that there’s quite a bit of waste that can be squeezed out of the system.

Take, for example, the very simple act of consulting with a health care provider. You call, and heaven forbid if you’re unable to speak or are hearing impaired, and make an appointment. Then you have to drag your @ss to a different location than your home or office, talk to someone who’s sitting there taking notes. On paper.

Contrast this with booking a flight. You can go to an airline website and book your trip without having to talk to anyone. Or struggle to hear what the airline reservation agent is telling you.

In essence, you’ve just made an appointment with Southwest Airlines. Or some other carrier.

Now, let’s get to the actual appointment. You’re sitting there talking to someone who’s taking notes. Why can’t you use some sort of online interactive diagnostic tool ahead of your appointment?

Face it, a lot of medicine is based on a decision tree model. In other words, if you have this set of symptoms, you’re probably going to get better on your own. OTOH, if you have that set of symptoms, you’d best see a doctor pronto-pronto.

I’d rather have the doctor/nurse practitioner/physicians assistant greeting me with the info I provided via the online interactive tool. “Okay, Slim. You’re coughing and can’t stop. And you can’t talk. Let’s check and see if you have bronchitis or pneumonia.”

BTW, the above scenario happened to me early last year. Which meant that event calling for an appointment was out of the question.

I kinda agree…. 26-year-old dependents?
I’d call them losers!

I’d call them forgotten Americans.

Yeah, let’s just conveniently forget the 10-17% UE. Or the 27% underemployment.

They’re just losers.

Wouldn’t **younger** plan participants lower costs per person, as they are usually healthy and don’t require much medical care?

IOW, the insurance companies are being paid for them, but these young people are likely to be a profit center, no?

Efficiency from a government agency?

“limiting the profit that these companies glean from the sick”

( Well.., ‘that’ is the business they’re IN, right? )

Or just let ‘em suffer.., whatever.

a. Government doesn’t pay on time because they are inefficient. They pay…eventually.

b. private sector doesn’t pay because they deliberately convolute the paperwork, ask for more info just to delay payment so they can make interest off the float, and charge high prices for the service. They pay…eventually…if they didn’t deny you.

Pick your poison, i guess…

oxide,

Oh.., precisely! And never take anything I say as a defense of the HC Industry status quo. It’s just not possible to be more unhappy w/ the “deliberately convoluted paper-snarl” than I already am.

( The ‘float’ IS the gravy! ) and I’m just sick of it. The absolute -only- thing I fault the current admin. on is ram-rodding the very necessary changes in such hurried fashion.

I’d have preferred the HC ind. SQ be bled to death the same way they’ve done to us, Death By A Thousand CUTS!

Oh dear. It’s hard to tell when a company is doing something they wanted to do anyway, using some new public policy as an excuse.

Brett: “Efficiency from a government agency?”

psst. It’s Idealist Oxide…Never met a government she didn’t like.

Let me know when there is any actual efficiency from a corporation.

Wal-Mart.

Wal Mart? Did you really just say Wal Mart?!

I think I’ve hurt myself laughing.

The public option was shown to SAVE thousands per person.

One of the things that I was/am hoping the public option would do is to figure out what does/does not work in the medical care field.

And, wouldn’t you know it, the United States is blessed with one of the best figuring-out teams on the planet. I’m talking about places like the National Institutes of Health, Centers for Disease Control, Food and Drug Administration, and our research universities.

One of the more intriguing efforts has been going on for, oh, 20 years or more at Dartmouth University. It’s called the Dartmouth Atlas of Health Care. It tracks health care disparities — not just in spending, but in outcomes.

With the coming of the public option, and, yes, it is coming, there will be a much larger data pool. Which means that we’ll be closer to figuring out what works vs. what pays the doctors and hospitals the most.

The SINGLE biggest efficiency would come from using a single standard for claims.

Taxpayers already cover the most expensive patients — the elderly, the poor, and very sick children. If we were to cover the young and healthy as well, it would lower per person costs, no?

Just like with the financial industry, we give the private companies the profits, and taxpayers get the losses.

So let them cut off their nose to spite their face. That just means someone who CAN make money will come in and take over that business.

After all, isn’t that how competitive business is supposed to work?

Because quite frankly, anyone who denies health care to children should rot in hell. Preferably as soon as possible.

Because quite frankly, anyone who denies health care to children should rot in hell. Preferably as soon as possible.

The truth held in that sentiment is why every other major country in the world treats health-care as more than just a “business”.

That just means someone who CAN make money will come in and take over that business.

Um… yeah. No.

There’s no way in Hades that anyone came make money doing post-event insurance. If you think it can be done - give it a shot.

It’s totally unfair and shouldn’t happen.

I wonder what would happen if the bill was sent to the nearest Mexican consulate.

maggots “get” over the border.

Sorry, I blow a head gasket on this topic. I didn’t proof.

And it makes you wonder, how did the maggots got over the border in the first place, and knew about Children’s Hospital (la=Los Angeles?), and knew it was free?

Maggots?

I am really divided about all this (illegal immigration).

I think Fed and local government ought to mandate that all gov. business be conducted in English, for instance.

I don’t want to live in meta-Mexico.

But, I also have no sympathy for the legions of “Out of work, god bless” sign-holders when a thousand people a month risk their lives crossing the desert to come to the US just TO GET JOBS!

Having said that, how can you possibly call someone a “maggot” for doing his best to get health care for his kid?

How do you know they were not sponsored by a charitable organization? - it happens all the time. Sick kids from all over the world get brought to the US for life-saving medical treatment.

I can’t get behind calling people who are actually willing to die to get a job or try to save their kid’s life, “maggots”.

by the way mother and father both had laptops and cell phones…the laptops were MACS…..THANK U FOR YOUR GOOD WISHES,surgeon was an artist did great work…i am happy to pay my fair share….

I live among them. We sold our home and got stuck. I have never ever met a group of more entitlement oriented people in my life, who have children as a business venture. Most pay no taxes, get free money from our govt., and drive around in nicer SUV’s then most Americans can afford (who are educated and work). Considering the conversation Sold in 04 heard between the Dad and the Social Worker, I would say he was illegal. Usually, charities tell people they are under their umbrella. My Sister is a Social Worker in Los Angeles, and it turns her stomach, but she can’t say anything. I am so sick of these freeloaders, who commited a transgression of Federal Law. In my world, at that point, they deserve nothing more than getting their toshes booted out of the USA. Nuff said.
P.S. Do some charity work for Americans, and grow a soft heart for them. I do Breast Cancer Charity work, and meet women who are too proud for their own good, and they’ve paid into the system for years. Oy Vey.

Oh, and one more thing, E-Verify is suppose to keep them from working here if they are illegal. We are a country, and so are the countries so of the border. You try this carp in one of those. They might be as corrupt but they aren’t as stupid.

Most pay no taxes, get free money from our govt., and drive around in nicer SUV’s then most Americans can afford(who are educated and work)

There are numerous people coming here illegally from other countries, living the good life and not working?

who have children as a business venture.

I assume you are talking about welfare payments to parents of “anchor babies”. Is there any other form of welfare an undocumented, non-working alien can collect?

(I’m totally against the whole “anchor baby” thing, by the way)

I mean, I know undocumented people can get emergency health care at hospitals, but I hadn’t heard about the SUV assistance program yet.

I read that the state of CA pays 540M to 192,000 anchor babies in welfare a year. That works out to about $2800/year per child. I suppose that’s a car payment if your SUV is painted red and reads “Radio Wagon” on the side.

factcheck.org

Considering the conversation Sold in 04 heard between the Dad and the Social Worker, I would say he was illegal.

Well, there’s your proof. A quick description of an overheard conversation in an internet blog post comment is all that anyone should need to come to a conclusion.

$540M is BS. It’s much more than that. And to reply with your “flavor”, a link on the internet is a fact?

In Ca we have EBT cards, where $ is transfered into checking accounts from the state. Besides debit cards, it can be taken out in cash at an ATM, or it can be accumulated w/ no cap limit. The no cap rule has turned into SUV down payments. I live in the epicenter of this criminal invasion. My sister works in the muck everyday. Free medical, almost free rent, free school lunches, free money, while real Americans suffer. These people who suck us dry are moral scum. Oh, and that includes all the 3rd world scum living in our once great country.

I like you, btw, but I live this reality everyday. We just see this topic difference.

What I experienced at our local SS office, when my mother was widowed, made me blow a head gasket.

I pay $350 for a family of 4 on Blue Cross Anthem. You have to shop and be smart. $30 doc visits. $5000 deduct.

They did. In April of 2000. Seriously. Creepy company. Of course, the recruiter for JC Penny said the company was in terrible shape and to not work there, so maybe I just get people to open up.

And this is why the Canadian economy -dwarfs- ours! WTF?

Sorry. I didn’t understand the comment. Or was it a question?

Single Payer Healthcare. It can’t ever work here. We are not socialists.

I give you exhibit A:
The Canadian Economy, A profile in Communistic Socialism:

The economies of Canada and the United States are extremely similar because they are both developed countries…
While the United States has in recent years had a large trade deficit Canada has recently maintained a trade surplus…. While the US is running deficits of about 4% of GDP, Canada has consistently posted a budget surplus of around 1% of GDP.

Nice job, Rio.

it’s not a criticism. We take care of each other.

my only point is that Canadians need not spend money on a military actually capable of defending the whole of Canada, and can instead use the money to fund a health care system, or to buy something else.

Maybe Canada doesn’t need a mongo military because they haven’t made invading and occupying other countries because they have resources into their national sport.

The world isn’t buying that we are the benevolent gendarme that’s keeping everyone safe. We are perceived as imperialists and invaders.

We are perceived as imperialists and invaders.

Indeed we are. I got an earful of this very thing when I was in Europe during the 1970s.

…because they haven’t made invading and occupying other countries..

Why would any aggressor give two hoots about whether or not Canada tried to invade someone?

If China or Russia, Japan or anyone else wanted it now, in the past, or in the future, they would just storm in and take it.

but then they’d be messing with us. Not a good idea.

Yes. My family is from Austria, and they complain of this same problem (Turks especially).

“There’s much more of a hard division between city and country than there is in the U.S.”

That’s one huge reason I find Japan’s geography so alluring. One minute you’re in a bustling city, then you hurtle through a tunnel, and suddenly you’re in a wide open plain of rice paddies.

Here it’s an hour and half drive to anything that looks like countryside. Yuck!

P.S. I lived down there for 6 years - lived in Boynton, and met my future wife in Coconut Grove. I can vouch that the metro’s abysmal (that whole circular rail thing is … weird, but interesting). However it really would be impossible to do a complete public rail system there, due to the huge spread of the suburbs. There’s fairly complete coverage with the bus system though, and tri-rail helps (thought even that’s not really that useful).

Bottom line is that it just doesn’t make sense to put in a complete system of both roads and rail; it’s just not economically feasible. A complete rail system only makes sense when you have both high density and high population levels.

Happiness net by country
# 1 Iceland: 94%

The pleasure derived from telling your Gov’t leaders to stick repayment policies up their … ? Priceless!

Cripes, must that stupid list be trotted out every time there’s a discussion about socialism? (Or in this case a discussion about exporting that got hijacked into a discussion about socialism)

There are a lot more factors to “happiness” than politics and economic systems - like demographics, geography, weather, etc.

The U.S. is ahead of Canada, and yet Canada has a social safety net. Same with Japan. There are a couple of strong counterpoints. #1 on the list is Iceland, but they’re on verge of bankruptcy - not exactly something I’d crow about (and something which very much makes me doubt the validity of that list).

Personally - the best correlation I see in that list is how good looking the women are. Seriously. I think the only reason Venezuela’s not #1 is their big political problems. Well - plus the U.K. seems to be an anomaly.

(Well, half seriously perhaps.)

Cripes, must that stupid list be trotted out every time there’s a discussion about socialism?

I never saw it brought up, but I hope so.

weather,

Weather? did you see the list?

strong counterpoints. #1 on the list is Iceland, but they’re on verge of bankruptcy - not exactly something I’d crow about (and something which very much makes me doubt the validity of that list).

The list was 2005. Iceland was not BK. The USA was BOOMING and we still got our clock cleaned by “socialist” countries. I bet our position has fallen far since 2008.

Personally - the best correlation I see in that list is how good looking the women are.

I see that and I also see that those countries have very strong social safety nets which enables people to relax, smell the flowers and not constantly worry during their short time on earth. And all those countries have very rich people too.

# 1 Iceland: 94%
= 2 Sweden: 91%
= 2 Denmark: 91%
= 2 Netherlands: 91%
# 5 Australia: 90%
= 6 Ireland: 89%
= 6 Switzerland: 89%
# 8 Norway: 88%
= 9 United Kingdom: 87%
= 9 Venezuela:

The Swedes are happy because their women are so hot. The Dutch because they’re all stoned. I have no idea what the Aussies and Irish are so happy about, except maybe because the rest of the world thinks it’s cute the way they talk.

Iceland because the people actually have a voice in their government - whether the government likes it or not - they told the bankers to get fooked.

The Swiss have those great knives and those big dogs running around with little caskets of brandy on their collars. Obviously the Norwegians are happy because they are the least religious country in the world.

Venezualy, Denmark and UK? No idea.

Venezualy? Seriously?

Rio - I note you left out demographics; IMO the most important factor, by far - both in terms of happiness, and in terms of the financial burden a social safety net would be. Note the difference between the U.S. and all those other happier countries.

(I didn’t see anything about weather on the site - can you point me to what category/subcategory?)

The Swedes are happy because their women are so hot.

I’ve went to Stockholm once. I was slightly underwhelmed with beauty of the women. They were OK, but no prettier than ladies in other major cities in the EU.

I was slightly underwhelmed with beauty of the women.

Great. Thanks for sharing.

I note you left out demographics; IMO the most important factor, by far - both in terms of happiness, and in terms of the financial burden a social safety net would be. Note the difference between the U.S. and all those other happier countries.

Why do you think demographics are the most important factor in terms of happiness?

And about demographics being the most important factor in terms of the financial burden a social safety net would be, consider:

Don’t all of those countries spend relatively more than America on their social safety nets now? Therefore, theirs is already currently the greater burden no matter their demographics.

It’s not like America is spending as much as them right now but because of our unique demographics we would need to spend more than them for similar results. Currently, we don’t even equal their relative spending on social safety nets. So how could we say American demographics would require America to spend relatively more than those “happy” countries?

As far as weather, I was just commenting that most those happy countries don’t have great weather.

Why do you think demographics are the most important factor in terms of happiness?

Main reasons:
- Racial strife. We brought it on, but it is what it is.
- Crime
- Immigration conflicts

And actually I shouldn’t say it’s the most important strictly with happiness; I mean to say most important for the combination of the two factors.

Don’t all of those countries spend relatively more than America on their social safety nets now?

No actually, they don’t. E.g. France and the U.S. both spend about 8% of the GDP on public health care. The U.S. spends an additional 8% on private health care. This IMO is in large part due to the demographics I mention.

Don’t get me wrong - I don’t like our health care system at all, but I think going towards universal coverage, especially as paid for by public spending, is the wrong direction. It will only further bankrupt us. Same with other social safety nets. Trying to use other countries as examples is comparing apples and oranges.

France and the U.S. both spend about 8% of the GDP on public health care. The U.S. spends an additional 8% on private health care.

Because it’s structural. France’s, Europe and Canada’s structure is better in healthcare delivery. We CAN compare and learn from those countries.

And they do spend more on their social safety nets and they pay for it by protecting the tax base of their good jobs, higher wages because of stronger unions, highly progressive taxes, and higher taxed rich people who only can only own 4 homes instead of 8. This is how you pay for it without going bankrupt.

higher taxed rich people who only can only AFFORD TO own 4 homes instead of 8.

(It is the extreme concentration of wealth in the USA that is bankrupting us and putting us on the path of 3rd world banana republicanism.)

This is no mystery.

“This is no mystery.”

Well apparently it’s rocket surgery and reely, reely complicated brain science for many people.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_net_soc_exp_of_gdp-economy-net-social-expenditure-gdp

I found for 2001. USA a bit less than weighted average.

Economy Statistics > Net social expenditure > % of GDP
Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount
# 1 Sweden: 30.6 % of GDP
# 2 Germany: 28.8 % of GDP
# 3 Belgium: 28.5 % of GDP
# 4 Denmark: 27.5 % of GDP
# 5 Finland: 25.6 % of GDP
# 6 Italy: 25.3 % of GDP
# 7 Norway: 25.1 % of GDP
= 8 United Kingdom: 24.6 % of GDP
= 8 Austria: 24.6 % of GDP
# 10 Netherlands: 24 % of GDP
# 11 United States: 23.4 % of GDP
# 12 Australia: 21.9 % of GDP
# 13 Canada: 21.8 % of GDP
# 14 Ireland: 18.4 % of GDP
# 15 New Zealand: 17.5 % of GDP
# 16 Japan: 15.7 % of GDP
Weighted average: 24.0 % of GDP

DEFINITION: Net public social spending as a percentage of GDP. This also includes public health expenditure.

The first day of the month used to be called “Mother’s Day” in the inner cities because this was when the welfare checks used to arrive.

As soon as the welfare checks arrived the boyfriends would show up, spend some time rubbing body parts with the lonely mothers, then they would leave with a hefty chunk of change forked over by the mothers.

Big article about this in the L.A.Times some years ago.

combo,

In the Navy we applied somewhat differently, as in come payday ( you had to pay this mother… and you owed that ‘other’ mother… )

I just think tatt’ing it to their forehead makes them even more susceptible to falling prey ( payday loans etc? ) Could serve to smooth out that end of retail as well.

Oh and btw, “packaging to price” isn’t the same thing as ’selling’ Walmart A-HOLES!

As soon as the welfare checks arrived the boyfriends would show up, spend some time rubbing body parts with the lonely mothers, then they would leave with a hefty chunk of change forked over by the mothers.

Hmmmm, why can’t I find men like that? Except for the part about having to pay these fellas for their, ahem, services, the rest of this deal sound pretty appealing.

But then again, I’m not a welfare mother. And I’m not exactly lonely.

“Packaging to Price” = Let no dollar escape.

Dollars that enter Walmart need to stay in Walmart.

not a bad idea to consider distributing all govt support throughout the month, imo. Sales would even out. The bureaucratic cost might rise.

As for targeting/exploiting consumers, that’s just business. No person or group is considered to be out of range, rich poor or in between. We’re all targets.

i own some walmart and i’m not at all happy with this particular move, nor with some other changes i see at the stores.. They are wasting money and effort.
Management is straying away from what WalMart is known for [Insert snappy litte quip here] instead of capitalizing on it.

What move?

“… It is our responsibility to figure out how to sell in that environment…And to figure out how to deal with what is an ever-increasing amount of transactions being paid for with government assistance.

They don’t need to “figure out” how to sell in this new environment. They arrived. A long time ago.
This change in the environment is a huge windfall, being offered to Wmart on a silver platter, but they insist on paying for it.

Adjusting package quantities according to the day of the month will not increase govt assist money currently spent in Wmart by one thin dime.
Maybe that’s not considered a “move” but it is a waste of money, and follows a other examples of recent, unnecessary spending.

If it aint broke, don’t spend my money trying to fix it.

Sounds like you’re more angry at the government than at Wal-Mart (which I agree with).

Government benefits being what they are - why wouldn’t they try to take advantage of the way things are done? E.g. I could definitely see a benefit of larger package sizes at the beginning of the month. Larger package sizes are a better deal due to economies of scale. If I’m a person looking to buy a month’s worth of supplies on Xember 1st at midnight - I’m all over that. If I have $5 left on Xember 31st to buy one last day’s worth of food until I get my next batch of money, and I can only afford a small quantity, but need it to not go hungry - I’m all over that too.

Whether or not Walmart targets that kind of customer doesn’t change the lifestyle itself. If they can draw customers away from other stores by making more time-of-the-month-appropriate packaging sizes, then that’s doing the customer some good as well as making more profits.

…Larger package sizes are a better deal due to economies of scale..

Sure, but you’re thinking like someone who (A) has to earn their money and (B) can afford large quantities, and still have plenty of money in reserve.

Someone who doesn’t earn it might have a different view entirely.
Someone who has little to spend certainly has a different view. They may prefer the smallest quantity of necessities.

TP.. 4 rolls of cheap-o for $1.59? Fine. I’m not gonna blow off $15 on the big package to “save” about $1..

Spend the minimum and there’s more money left over for whatever else they might want to buy.
——

Walmart seems envious of Target and is moving in that direction… This local store remodeled with wood floors, widened isles and dumped lots of products to do it.

They don’t even carry plastic rolls for the Food Saver I bought there years ago, nor the machines. In the camping dept, it’s all Coleman stuff.. Name brand, high prices and just as crappy as the off brands made in China.

What do you expect WM to pay someone who has no skills and no education? Employees put products on shelves and check those products out at the cash register. And for that they make $8 an hour. Sounds more than fair.

Besides this is such a ridiculous argument. Of course Peachcare will have the most people employed from WM. WM is the largest employer in the country (next to Obama’s govt that is).
I would guess that the employer with the most left handed people and the employer with the most brown haired people is also WM. This is further proof that WM needs to be unionized ASAP!!

What do you expect WM to pay someone who has no skills and no education?

Enough to live a hard-working, frugal life with healthcare, pride and dignity. As was the case in America and is the case in other first world countries.

I would guess that the employer with the most left handed people and the employer with the most brown haired people is also WM. This is further proof that WM needs to be unionized ASAP!!

It’s a complicated argument but I do agree with the conclusion.

Q: What do you expect WM to pay someone who has no skills and no education?

A: Enough to live a hard-working, frugal life with healthcare, pride and dignity. As was the case in America and is the case in other first world countries.

A few years ago, I lived next door to a guy who could best be described as educable mentally retarded. His career consisted of work in a variety of labor jobs — mining, groundskeeping, and janitorial. And he was also a homeowner. Matter of fact, he was a paid-off-the-mortgage and otherwise living debt-free homeowner.

Through his jobs, he had health care. And pride. And dignity.

Eddie:

If our labor market were not being wholesaled out to China, then the workers at Wal Mart would be paid what the labor market demands. Unfortunately, the labor market has been literally *sold* to China’s communist system.

This is what happens under Communism. Someone in charge gets to decide just how much everyone “needs” and “deserves” to be paid. No surprise that the privileged few end up with HUGE salaries, while everyone else is starved.

Hey Eddie, ever heard of Costco? Their starting wage is something like $13-14 hr. Plus bennies.

Being a good employee is rewarded with $1hr raises each year. $18+hr is a livable wage without being lavish.

They have a waiting list. Which is another incentive for the employees to do good work.

See how that works? The carrot and the stick. Because when you just use the stick all time, people will tell you to go eff yourself and actively work to undermine your business.

Which brings to mine another good example. Dell. Once number one now a distant 3rd. Why? All stick and no carrot.

But apparently the PTB are decedents of Marie Antoinette.

“…What do you expect WM to pay someone who has no skills and no education?”

Hey Haskell, please provide a dissertation on why Woe-Mart would hire such…American folks,…in the 1st place?

Ready, set, go,…

Well of course there is no guarantee. But the risk/reward is very favorable, even for people from Kansas.

First off Wall St isn’t the only place where people succeed financially. Wall St is a drop in the bucket actually, yet for some reason it is now a given that wealth must equal Wall St. That’s the MSM for you I suppose.

But even if you must concentrate on this obsession with Wall St, look at the bios of Wall St tycoons. Most of them came from middle class backgrounds. They attended Harvard or Yale or Princeton and became what they are. Sure there are some exceptions that came from money. But in general they are 1st generation tycoon types and they would never have made it that far ad they gone to No Name State U.

Here is Hank Paulson’s bio from Wiki

“Paulson was born in Palm Beach, Florida, to Marianna (née Gallauer) and Henry Merritt Paulson, a wholesale jeweler. He was raised in Barrington Hills, Illinois, as a Christian Scientist. Paulson attained the rank of Eagle Scout in the Boy Scouts of America.

Paulson received his B.A. in English from Dartmouth College in 1968; at Dartmouth he was a member of Phi Beta Kappa and Sigma Alpha Epsilon and he was an All-Ivy, All-East, and honorable mention All American as an offensive lineman.”

Middle class kid from Illinois, who was an Eagle Scout. Do you really think he would have become CEO of Goldman had he gone to University of Illinois? Somehow I think the answer is no.

The single best predictor for acceptance at most elite schools is family income/wealth. That is not to say that kids can’t get in if their folks aren’t rich. They can and they do. But the closest predictor is family income/wealth.

“Well of course there is no guarantee.”

If you know anything about student loans, there had better be a guarantee. I just don’t understand how people are paying for college with such low debt numbers. It makes no sense, unless they’re outright lying. This college tuition bubble will cost (the taxpayers) every bit as much as the housing bubble.
My older daughter went the CC/ state school route and she graduates , in June, without loans.

#1 Wrong. Median household income for 2007 the freshman classes at Harvard, Yale and Princeton was….get ready for it….a whopping $87K. Maybe in your world $87K a year is rich and well connected. For the rest of the world that’s middle to upper middle class.

#3…you have to be kidding me. I take it you didn’t spend much time at elite schools with that comment. Animal House was based on fraternities at Dartmouth for crying out loud.

#4. I know plenty of people who _______________. Is this really how you try to make a point refuting statistics taken from millions of college graduates, by using anecdotal evidence? Well OK. If that’s the case. I know someone who dropped out of college and is now a millionaire many times over. Therefore dropping out of college is the best course of action for one’s career.

Nice try.

Thanks Joey,

But I actually think more Americans are interested in the millions dropping out of the middle-class, poverty, no healthcare, the cost of education, and lack of good jobs in the USA than are concerned about how to become a billionaire.

Thanks, rio.. but you may be mistaken.
Thoughts of becoming a billionaire occurs to every American, on average, about 4 times per day.. just a little less than does sex.

Thanks, rio.. but you may be mistaken.

Maybe but after re-reading our last two posts on the subject, I seriously doubt it.

One is set in life when one can have sex whenever one wants, can go fishing whenever one wants, and has no f***ing clue what one would need a billion dollars for. The first two things don’t cost much at all.

Disclaimer: I thnk about this approx once per day.

Blue Skye

You hit on an important point. There is no need to become a billionaire. People do it because they want to, like climbing a mountain or running a marathon..
There’s no real need to do maybe 99% of the things we do..

Someone needs to build businesses, provide jobs, goods and services and pizza and all the stuff that I enjoy, and I’m grateful for that…. but I’m neither money-hungry enough nor enough of a humanitarian to devote my life to it.

Number of billionaires plummets, Forbes magazine reports

“The biggest news today is that we are here and there still are billionaires,” Forbes spokeswoman Monie Begley joked at a press conference.
———-

This is an example of social mobility in the downward direction.

Link: American cars top J.D. Power quality survey

http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/cars/american-cars-top-j-d-power-quality-survey-1.2032443

Have American made cars surpassed foreign makes for resale value yet?

Not quite. Kelley Blue Book does say the Chevy Camaro SS and the Corvette made the top ten, otherwise for 2010 it’s all foreign, with three Toyota products on the list.

So why not set a good example for us and go spend your money and tell us firsthand what great cars they are?

Plus, it’s funny how you tell another HBBer they should change with the times as you simultaneously shill for a company, a union, and an economic system that up until very recently (and even that’s debatable) have tried their best NOT to change with times.

Have American made cars surpassed foreign makes for resale value yet?

You’re mistaken quality with price. The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing ...

So why not set a good example for us and go spend your money and tell us firsthand what great cars they are?

Yea and why don’ you….. My last 4 cars were American,…Jack.

Plus, it’s funny how you tell another HBBer they should ………….

And it’s funny how you tell other HBBer’s …….well, not much at all……..

Plus, it’s funny how you tell another HBBer they should change with the times as you simultaneously shill for a company, a union, and an economic system that up until very recently (and even that’s debatable) have tried their best NOT to change with times.

You sir are ignorant to what “I tell”. My main thrust is conservative. It is to defend domestic industries from foreign and state-controlled and supported industries UNLESS we meet them with the same variables. Is this too much to comprehend in the age of media brainwashing?

Your position is more progressive than mine in the context of American vs. Foreign competition. I suggest you think hard on this aspect, as you are the new unpatriotic, progressive whose radical ideas have decimated the conservative manufacturing base of America. And they weren’t even your original ideas. We know.

And in the name of what? In the name of the rich man, Chinese and foreign “free-trade” and globalization?

Maybe these imbecilities will make nice bed-time stories for your grandchildren someday.

Maybe they were just working on a new concept car

The Chevy Buzz