Bits Bucket For October 2, 2010
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The Housing Bubble
Examining the home price boom and its effect on owners, lenders, regulators, realtors and the economy as a whole.
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BofA is joining the ranks of those stopping foreclosures. According to the LA Times,
The freeze is taking place in states where courts have jurisdiction over foreclosures, Bank of America said. It will not apply to California and 26 other states where foreclosures usually take place without a court order, but the action could put added pressure on banks to ease back on foreclosures more broadly amid high unemployment and continued turmoil in the housing market.
This almost seems backwards. In a judicial foreclosure, the parties have more opportunity to present evidence e.g. paperwork supporting claims of actually having a note somewhere. IIUC a non-judicial or administrative foreclosure should require all paperwork be non-controversial.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-1002-mortgage-20101002,0,2669529.story
The govt is really making the housing gamblers out to be victims now.This is a total sham for the taxpayer.All on the base of the good of the overall economy.
The house next to us scheduled for trustees sale in mid october.To make good on the deed of trust they need to come up with ~ 515k for a house that is worth 220k max.they are in the hole 5k for hoa dues,they have not paid a dime to lender since around february 2008.At a market rent of 1800/month thats about 54k in free rent.And then whoever buys this house has to evict them.simply amazing people.
“The govt is really making the housing gamblers out to be victims now.”
Might make sense w/ clarification that the gamblers are victims of terrible federal housing policy, designed to encourage foolish lending which could only lead to eventual default, given the gaping chasm between buyer (permanent) incomes and principle loan balances.
I dont even think they were thinking about the income side of the equation.As long as the ponzi scheme continued all was well.Now its bushs faulkt and obama is going to save everyone without bailots and grants.As long as they are willing to continue to print money and sell treasuries to themselves all is well right?
-My take on this is all efforts are being used right before the election to make sure things look as stable as possible. It’s just like the rule that they don’t foreclose in December right before Christmas. This all the better for the patient who are going to wait to buy in 11 or later. If you haven’t noticed yet folks, middle class America has entered the openning throws of CAPITULATION. I’m not only yelling, I’m turning summersaults with my fat middle-aged body.
-Totally off topic. I spent yesterday in Tijuana. It’s the worst I’ve ever seen it. The poor always suffer the most in a Depression. Yes, I used a D.
D = Depression, thought you were talking about Tijuana
The LA times on Oct. 1 had an article about mortgage modifications. I checked on the county tax rolls about a couple mentioned in the article. They had purchased the house in 2003 for $222,000 but refied it in 2006 for $400,000. Now they want us to help them out. Where did the free money go?
The free money was spent on stuff and bills. Any other questions?
Where can you find the county tax rolls online?
“states where foreclosures usually take place without a court order,”
OK, I kind of hate to admit it, but I don’t understand how can a house be seized WITHOUT some sort of court paperwork?
What happened to due process?
Pretty simple concept here.Pay your bills or lose your home.Why is that so hard for people to understand?It is called capitalism and gives incentives for people to go to work everyday and compete.You dont work you dont get the finer things in life like a roof over your head.
“Pretty simple concept here.Pay your bills or lose your home.”
No argument there. But doesn’t the lender still have to go to court?
Not in some states with non judicial foreclosure.They might have to go to court to evict you if you still wont leave after they get thier property back.
ca non judicial foreclosure
90 days late = notice of default, recorded at county recorder where property is located.
you do not pay within 90 days=notice of trustees sale
you do not pay=sell your home to highest bidder at courthouse steps.If there are no bidders goes back to benificiary under deed of trust, the bank.
there are 3 parties when you borrow money under a deed of trust in ca:
trustor = you the borrower
trustee= 3rd party that is given power to foreclose if you do not pay, usually title company. the trustee can be changed by filing substitution of trustee.
beneficiary=the one who loaned the money and get the house if you do not follow the contract of payment in deed of trust.You also sign a promissary note w/ the deed of trust.
it is probably in the original mortgage paperwork where you agree to allow foreclosure if you don’t perform your end of the bargain - similar to agreeing to arbitration in the case of a dispute with a bank or insurance company. As long as the laws of the state don’t make the specifics illegal, competent adults can contract to almost anything. No due process issue is raised.
“…it is probably in the original mortgage paperwork…”
Who bothers to read silly paperwork these days? Apparently even many lenders who process foreclosures don’t bother to read it.
Many states, such as California, offer the lender a choice between a judical or a non-judicial foreclosure.
A judicial foreclosure takes place as a trial - albieit a short trial - in a courtroom before a judge. A non-judicial or administrative foreclosure is a highly shortened procedure more like going down to the DMV to get a license, IIUC it’s before an administrative law judge (maybe polly can help here).
A judicial foreclosure obviously costs the lender more money. However, in California the judicial foreclosure preserves the right of the lender to sue for a deficiency judgment. Most lenders take the non-judicial route by which they waive their right to sue for a deficiency judgment since most FBs don’t have any money anyway. This situation has caused California to be called a “non-recourse mortgage” state although that’s a dreadful oversimplification and actually not true. If some guy like Bill Gates played jingle mail with a California property, you can be darned sure the lender would pursue a deficiency judgment via the judicial foreclosure process.
Good summary dennis.I imagine the non judicial way is a lot cheaper then going to ct and getting lawyers involved.
Thanks for the clarification on this. I thought California was a non-rescourse state with regard to the orignal purchase.
I thought California was a non-rescourse state with regard to the orignal purchase ??
Non-recourse on purchase money financing…
Although dating from December 2007, this article is a pretty good summary of the economics of foreclosure.
http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/market-movers/2007/12/28/the-economics-of-non-judicial-foreclosures/
I would correct him on one part however. The 125% LTV loans were probably predicated on predictions of dramatic price increases into the future.
Maybe I’m too cynical, but I think this is a cleverly planted nugget to provide cover for the banks spreading the foreclosures out over 5-10 years.
I think your right.Extend and pretend.
I’ve been wondering the same.
YUP! The banks cannot afford to flood the market with foreclosures. The remaining inventory they hold which are currently being paid as agreed would fold.
The NY Times has a feature story about city slickers buying up rural “second” homes, although many are renters in the city.
Those two bozos think they can maintain 19 acres just being there on the weekends. Have they got a major lesson coming to them.
Daniel Chen and Todd Kelly found they could negotiate on matters other than price. Mr. Chen, a graphic designer, and Mr. Kelly, an artist, who rent an apartment in Brooklyn, closed a couple of weeks ago on an 1890s farmhouse in Accord, an Ulster County hamlet less than two and a half hours from the city.
The property, which had been part of a farm, was listed at $389,000 when they saw it. Instead of haggling on price, the couple persuaded the seller to increase the package by five more acres, encompassing a pond and raising the total acreage to 19.27 from about 14. In return Mr. Chen and Mr. Kelly paid a slightly higher price, $399,000.
The guys appear to be in their late 30s or early 40s from the photo. I wonder whether either has ever been on a tractor before.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/03/realestate/03cov.html?hp
This is old news… an old trend that they’re trying to reignite. And it was this trend that exploded during the bubble years that drove prices up 300% and higher in far upstate NY and VT towns. And the trend was damaging. It resulted in;
1) A frozen RE market across an entire geographic area. Still frozen to this day
2) Natives (my friends and family) delay making tough decisions as it relates to the post-industrial decline.(Upstate NY, VT, NH and Mass are rust belt states)
3) A culture of arrogance and entitlement by natives: “I’m not going to accept a penny less”. (This get’s in the way of those hard decisions that must be made.)
It’s noted these two paid a grossly inflated price. All the elements of the package must be broken out and priced. Dirt, structures,well, septic, etc. The dirt is worth $2,000k/acre MAX and that is being generous. These two morons paid $360k for a 120 year old structure. REPEAT: They paid $360k for a 120 year old house! Construction tech back then was rudimentary. Field stone foundation or basement walls(the mortar glueing those rocks together is 120 years old!!!!!!!), dirt floor in basement, no below grade damp proofing, no perimeter drains, Balloon framing throughout the entire structure…. Succinctly put, the structure hasn’t much value to it…. yet two MSM/RealtorCrimeSyndicate believing uninformed morons sacrificed years of earnings for something that hasn’t much worth.
I might make mention that post-1980’s bubble, these people usually bailed after just a few years…. at a much lower price.
“This Old House” had a series on restoring a house around Boston - IIRC it was called the Roxbury Project. They would have done better tearing it down and building a new house. They jacked it up, tore out the field stone foundation, poured a new reinforced concrete foundation, and set the house back down. Just the new foundation alone probably cost tens of thousands of dollars.
Yeah I don’t understand salvaging old structures. There’s going to come a time where insurers refuse to cover balloon framed residential structures. You go nothing left if a fire starts in one of these old swaybacked shanties.
I have re-habed many homes including a 1/2 dozen houses 100+ years old…Tearing down vs. rehab really comes down to the owners needs and the location of the property…Bottom line is that these houses have value greater than the residual land value in most cases thereby making it economically non-viable to tear them down…
I appreciate your opinion but that makes zero sense. A house is a manufactured item. It depreciates always unlesss you counter that depreciation by sinking more $$ into it.
If it was in Roxbury I assume THO had covering fire.
Did the purchase include a vest and sidearm?
They had to build a really high chainlink fence around their dumpster, as the “locals” kept filling it up overnight with their junk.
Yes, this is a long standing fantasy/delusion for New Yorkers…
In 1988 Spalding Gray did a monologue called “Terrors of Pleasure” which is often referred to as “the little house that cried”.
A funny view of a real estate fantasy.
Some quotes:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096150/quotes
And don’t forget 1) the taxes are substantial, 2) the travel times they quote are optimistic and 3) there is a lot of rural poverty so the neighbors are not necessarily of the same mindset.
And there are all sorts of unanticipated expenses…
Knew a guy who had a house up in that area. Has to have a snow-plow guy on contract to plow the driveway every time it snows, whether they are there or not. Says if there is an emergency at the house the local fire department will not attempt to go up an un-plowed driveway and his might not cover any losses.
“his insurance might not cover any losses”
(need more coffee)
And let’s not forget what Cary Grant went through in Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House. Or, more recently, Chevy Chase in Funny Farm.
‘Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House’ - One of my favorite movies. Throw in ‘The Money Pit’
BTW, the other day I watched ‘Closing Escrow’, made in 2006. It was a hoot.
I saw Closing Escrow in a little theatre in downtown Tempe that shows offbeat stuff. There were about six real estate agents from a local office sitting a few rows in front of me who, from their conversation, obviously had decided to have a few drinks and then make an evening of it. They were almost as much fun as the movie.
The “plantation shutters” scene was worth the price of admission.
heh… heh.. heh heh heh.. Unanticipated expenses is an understatement when it comes to a 120 year old house in the middle of no where. It’s 120 years old and in the middle of no-where because economic interests pulled out decades ago. These are de-populated areas where the few that remain burden the entire costs of infrastucture maintenance. And that infrastructure is just as old and decrepit.
It’s a perfect economic storm:
-120 year old house
-rising taxes
-maintenance tasks increasing
-increasing costs per maintenance task
-decreasing local services
-growing unemployment ontop of long term chronic underemployemnt
It sounds dark doesn’t it? Sometimes reality is dark.
Probably the Manhattanites buying into the Armageddon storyline. You just have to monitor a few trading forums to hear the banter that picking up a little farm of your own upstate is the prudent approach to America’s future.
Yes… remnants of the 9/11 hobgoblin.
Not to defend them, but why is that any different from some of the HBBers preaching to get out of the city? Lack of responsive emergency teams such as ambulance or police in the boonies.
the neighbors are not necessarily of the same mindset.
You mean the hardscrabble redneck neighbors may not appreciate two city-slicker metrosexual gay guys showing up next door?
Who knows - they may be able to sell their situation as the basis for a new “reality” TV show. Sort of like “Green Acres” with one paying the Eddie Albert part and the other the Eva Gabor part.
Even if they don’t plan to “work” the farm, they will have to disc the fields to keep the weeds down - the county will insist on this.
You lease part of your fields out to someone who will farm it. It’s already being done. Ag taxes are much lower than standard residential.
“…..hardscrabble redneck neighbors……”
Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. Especially since they’ve jacked up the comps for any locals who were wanting to buy real estate.
And, off-topic, am I the only person who gets annoyed by New Yawkers referring to NYC as “The City”? As if it the only city that counts, or matters.
Carrie you’re correct. My family has an ag exemption on their dirt in Granville.
Dennis…. there is no requirement to knock down vegatation on untilled dirt. Not in NY or VT anyways.
Yes. “The City” is SF.
…. Sort of like “Green Acres” with one paying the Eddie Albert part and the other the Eva Gabor part.
LOL- That would make a great updated version of Green Acres. Misunderstandings and double entendres would be rife, antics would ensue, lessons would be learned.
Rainbow Acres.
IAT
“…there is a lot of rural poverty so the neighbors are not necessarily of the same mindset.”
If they are only there on weekends ( and as time goes on maybe only every second or third weekend) and the locals know it (and they will), that place will be stripped of anything worth value. It is unlikely they will really be accepted as part of the community so people will just look the other way. Do they think the local law enforcement will stand 24hr watch on their place? I know farmers who have had gas and grain taken when they were away and they were part of the community. There is always a segment of society that will take your stuff!!!
or… in the timeless words of Dora the Explorer…”Swiper, no swiping!!!!
They probably will invest in a video-camera security system, thinking this will protect them.
Then the next weekend they’ll find the security system has been stolen.
“NY, VT, NH and Mass are rust belt states
I think you might want to look a little closer at NH’s stats. They just got announced as the highest median income in the nation. It surprised me and I’m a native. It was recently declared the state w/the least corrupt state gov. Tennessee was the worst. A large percentage of people who live in the southern part of the state commute to better paying jobs in Boston which is often only an hour commute. And NH still doesn’t have that pesky state income tax which means peope there have a bit more money to spend.
And NY is in the top ten yet look at the reality…. High dollar salaries in NYC and westchester, the rest of the state is chronically underemployed. Sure sounds like north and south NH to me. I cannot believe Grafton, Coos and Carroll counties are any different than upstate NY counties and most of VT outside of Burlington. Defunct paper mills and small machine shops and foundries are part of reality there. *That is rust belt by any definition.*
So there is no income tax but the property taxes are no less oppressive than NY and VT.
I’ve often thought the NY/NE states need to reorganize. Make NYC, western CT up to Bridgeport, and metro Newark into a new state. Let eastern CT merge with RI. Having such diversity in wealth by geography in a single state must create inequities in taxation and regulations.
Mr. Chen and Mr. Kelly paid a slightly higher price, $399,000………
They always say that. The house “sold” for xxxx or the owner paid xxxx.
I don’t believe a word of it.
I’ll bet it’s a government-backed LOAN for $380,000. So, as long as they still have their jobs as graphic artists and can pay the note, they can get the “appreciation” they think they deserve.
And gee, it’s only like 2 and a half hours from the City. That’s like me buying a house in Gainesville, Florida. It’s only 2-1/2 hours from Tampa.
Gee, come to think about it, there’s a lot of farmland around Gainesville. Yea, maybe I could get a tract of land and a government loan from the Farm Bureau…….plant some “cash crops”…….Hummmm?
And I might make mention that my colleagues are cut from the same mold as these covered in the article. Metrosexual cosmo types who hold an appreciation for gentrified neighborhoods, salaries >$140k/yr and still can’t afford to buy a co-op, walkup or other residence in NYC. So they rent.
So why in the hell would you spend $400k+ on a dump over 2 hours away(that’s being generous) that you always have to be thinking of when you’re not there(which is 5 days/week)?
Piss on that.
Are you suggesting these guys BOTH make $140k/year on graphic design salaries?
One guy is described as an “artist”. The job title “artist” means he doesn’t get paid much.
Remember when the equity locust were going all over the Nation buying up tracts or any real estate they could get their hands on to
flip. The locals were mad because they were raising the price of real estate for the locals , the real end user people that lived in the location of the market .
They weren’t just flying all over the nation buying up, they were flying around the world. I witnessed it in Costa Rica and Nicaragua as well. It was a crack up. People were paying American prices for the 3rd world.
So why in the hell would you spend $400k+ on a dump over 2 hours away
I thnk that we can guess the answer to that one. They bought it for the investment. Houses prices have come down a lot over the past few years, so they think that it is a good time to buy. Plus, if they are the metrosexual type, they think that they will enjoy fixing up and decorating the house. Doesn’t that sound like the greatest thing? Have fun and make money at the same time?
Doesn’t that sound like the greatest thing? Have fun and make money at the same time?
You would think the two would be independent of each other, but have you noticed how it seems to be impossible to have fun when there’s no money being made?
Best part: plans to convert a corn crib to a painting studio. LOL! Kind of like converting a rusted-out VW bus into a Lear jet. They would be so, so better off just starting from scratch.
Taxes in upstate NY are insane.
Dinky crap shacks with $10,000/year taxes.
This place must be $15,000/year. Insanity. Wonder why no one wants to live in a crap shack in upstate NY with long winters and with the local wal-mart as the “fun” place to meet - insane taxes.
Smartest thing you’ve written on this blog. And most factual.
PS- Taxes are insane everywhere in NY. It just happens that upstate taxes are more oppressive because there are no jobs even though the actual dollar amount is lower than downstate.
Also, upstate is Goober Country/Peasant Country. The peeps aren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer.
One of my classmates at the university has distant relatives who work at his local school board. He says that nepotism is alive and well at this school system; they have a history of creating new administrative positions for the sole purpose of getting a relative hired. He also says at this school district an administrater’s salary is about double that of a teacher’s salary.
So the property taxpayers at this school district are
the fountain of moneythe chumps that keep on giving. What happens when the retirement for all of these people is no longer sustainable with yet another tax increase?I am not sure how the local property tax payers of this school district would go about fixing this problem (assuming they know this problem exists).
I have never owned any RE and I am leaning towards keeping things that way for a very long time.
Hey, TCM, good post and how’s it going?
On the subject of taxes, I was reading something the other day about how the IRS is basically the collection agency for the Federal Reserve and that a large part of our national tax burden is payment of interest on debt.
Locally, Hillsborough County is trying to convince voters to vote in an extra penny sales tax to fund light rail, sidewalks, etc. I’m all for a decent public transportation system, but it mainly benefits Tampa. Of course, Tampa could really use some sidewalks.
What district is this?
Oakland, Ca., maybe?
A district in South Central Kentucky.
That’s amazing. It must truly be everywhere:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/pinellas-schools-to-investigate-administrators-role-in-hiring-of-daughters/1124472
So, what is he doing about it?
Has he written a letter to the editor? Has he sent an e-mail to a local government reporter at the local paper? Has he even mentioned it at neighborhood barbeque when he is home?
Noticing stuff is fine. Doing something, however small, is something else. Most people are too scared (of what, I can’t imagine) to even slip a tip to a reporter. It won’t fix everything, but it is a start.
If it’s anything like my last town going up against the local school officials can be dangerous. Those people will take you out. It only matters if you feel like being seen w/anyone other than your own family though.
Reporters protect their sources and if the information is largely public, no one will even question where the information came from. This is how reporters make their chops and get to move to larger papers, so they might even be willing to kill all their access to local officials to write it. If it lets them move up a notch to a better paper, then they don’t need the tiny little town contacts. Only big obstacle is the editor, and you can ususally embarrass them into running the story if the corruption is large enough.
Seriously, we have a bill of rights for a reason. If people don’t use the rights, why bother protecting them?
‘Inside Job’ Director Charles Ferguson, Taking Wall Street Firmly To Task
Categories: Politics as Pop Culture, Movies
05:33 pm
October 1, 2010
…
The movie, opening Oct. 8, includes a testy exchange between Ferguson and former Bush adviser Glenn Hubbard, who’s now the dean of Columbia Business School — and, Ferguson argues, part of an academic culture that has allowed the financial services industry to corrupt the study of economics itself.
“Very prominent professors of economics, often people who’ve also held high government posts, are paid to testify in Congress,” Ferguson explains. “They are paid to be expert witnesss in both civil and criminal trials. They’re often paid to write papers that praise the financial services industry, and argue on behalf of deregulation of the industry. They make millions, in some cases tens of millions of dollars, doing this. And this is usually not disclosed.”
That analysis might be why Hubbard, when Ferguson asks him whether he’s got ties with financial services firms, responds with a cool one-word answer: “Possibly.”
“You don’t remember?” Ferguson presses.
“This isn’t a deposition, sir,” Hubbard replies. “I was polite enough to give you time — foolishly, I now see. But you have three more minutes. Give it your best shot.”
Ferguson says meeting Hubbard and other powerful figures in the industry was a eye-opening experience.
“These people were not used to being challenged,” he says. “They’d never been questioned about this issue before. They clearly expected to be deferred to — by me, and I think by everybody.”
Of all the confounding things he discovered, Ferguson says two of the most mind-boggling are these:
Contrary opinions from some legal experts notwithstanding, Ferguson says he’s convinced the feds have reason to go after Wall Street with the same “energy and determination” it brings to bear on organized crime.
“As a practical matter, it’s impossible to do what they did without committing criminal fraud,” he says bluntly. “And so I think it’s overwhelmingly likely that large quantities of criminal fraud were committed.”
I listened to this interview and this stood out:
‘Very prominent professors of economics, often people who’ve also held high government posts, are paid to testify in Congress,’ Ferguson explains. ‘They are paid to be expert witnesss in both civil and criminal trials. They’re often paid to write papers that praise the financial services industry’
Yet NPR can’t see the problem of constantly turning to an economist who lives in the wall street swamp:
‘TARP was a success,’ says Mark Zandi of Moody’s Economy.com. ‘There’s a lot of moving parts in TARP, and some worked better than others. But when you take the totality of what was done here, it saved the global financial system and ensured that the Great Recession did not turn into a depression.’
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128214887&ft=1&f=2781501
And what about Shiller? Does he get $ from wall street? Come on NPR, why the bias?
‘The housing bubble — you know that $8 trillion run up in house prices. When it burst it led to a financial crisis that almost brought down the financial system. It also pushed the economy into the worst downturn in 70 years, since its collapse caused construction to plummet and consumption (which had been fueled by bubble created home equity) to plunge.’
‘You would think that people who report on the housing market would have noticed the bubble — sort of like environmental reporters taking note of global warming — but that doesn’t seem to be the case at NPR. It ran two separate stories this morning on the housing market, neither of which made any reference to the housing bubble.’
‘The second included an extended presentation of the views of Nicolas Retsinas, the director of the Joint Center for Housing Studies at Harvard. Mr. Retsinas gained notoriety for insisting that there was no bubble during the peak years of the run-up in house prices and insisting that it was still a good time for moderate income families to buy homes. ‘
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/has-anyone-at-npr-heard-about-the-housing-bubble
From the same propaganda rag, just a little further down the line………..
“And Nathan Gonzales, a congressional elections analyst at The Rothenberg Political Report, says TARP is often part of anti-Obama sentiment even though the vote took place while Bush was in office.
“Republican primary voters and conservatives are not distinguishing between the TARP vote, the stimulus vote, maybe even the health care vote — they’re all viewed as bad votes,” he says. “They’re not looking at the timeline. It’s just the vote itself.”
As a result, 21 months later, many Republicans who voted for TARP at President Bush’s urging have come under attack from conservative opponents, often backed by the Tea Party movement, even though they voted against President Obama’s health care and economic stimulus packages.”
First of all, who is the Rothenburg Political Report. Just another front group the press makes up to get someone besides the writer of the story to give you the right slant on the story.
The fact that BUSH was President with the TARP program excludes the fact that DEMOCRATS controlled the Congress at that time.
The DEMOCRATS passed the bill that Bush signed.
It is a moronic view to think that those of us who opposed TARP would favor Republicans that also supported it, just because they have an R by their names.
Even if they voted against ObamaCare, they still betrayed us by giving our money to Wallstreet Banksters. NPR writers are so entrenched with the Democrat Party they just can’t see that’s it’s not about being against Obama, it’s about being against all the things he and his party have stuck us with. That includes TARP. And the “STIMULUS”. And more spending programs. And votes for illegal amnesty (remember the Bush push back). We didn’t support it. That is why we gave the Congress back to the Dems. Bush was no different by his second term. He was a big-spending, left wing ideologue claiming to be a republican conservative.
it’s about being against all the things he and his party have stuck us with.
Echoing somewhere in the deep canyons of American history…
“This whole sucker could go down, heeheheehehe” Shrub
To quote a grunge band from the 80’s:
“Let the bodies hit the floor”. i would have been quite fine with the whole sucker going down. It would have put Goldman Suchs, JPmorgan, CITI, AIG and all the other gamblers out of business, which is what should have happened.
Instead, that scum bag, Lloyd Blankfein, is doing “god’s work”.
I was unsure which god he was referring to, but I am sure it was probably the god of money and avarice.
Using the excuse that the credit markets would of dried up had they not bailed out the Culprits of the biggest Ponzi-scheme in History never held water with me . The Culprits were always Middlemen anyway and the Feds ended up injecting the money for the dried up market anyway . They knew they would all be taken down for their crimes had normal Justice prevailed .It was a issue of losses that needed to be paid on non-performing loans as well as Credit Default Swaps and all the other casino games .
For instance if you stopped the flow of money going to the
Drug Cartel in Mexico ,the money would just go elsewhere .
“And Nathan Gonzales, a congressional elections analyst at The Rothenberg Political Report, says TARP is often part of anti-Obama sentiment even though the vote took place while Bush was in office.”
Have Obama or his Treasury Secretary repudiated the TARP? If so, somebody please post the news, as I missed it completely.
Which is why there isn’t a nickels worth of difference between the Repubs and Democrats.
The banksters told their Republican and Democratic lapdogs that the world as we know it would come to an end without TARP.
Since Congressman only pay attention to lobbyists and money men anymore, it became conventional wisdom inside the Beltway. What people outside the Beltway thought probably never even crossed their minds. After all, they have a whole industry dedicated to deflecting people’s attention away from what they are actually doing.
Both then Senator Obama and Senator McCain voted yes on that bill. So any political backlash should be to vote all incumbents out.
Not only the voted for TARP, they also “encouraged” their colleagues to do so.
TARP was voted down the first time thanks to the dems. The Retardican vote was almost unanimous in favor of it the first round.
TARP was voted down the first time thanks to the dems. The Retardican vote was almost unanimous in favor of it the first round.
Busted! Can’t believe you are such a sick puppy. Oh my god!
—–
That same day, the legislation for the bailout was put before the United States House of Representatives and failed 205-228, with one not voting. Democrats voted 140 to 95 in favor of the legislation, while Republicans voted 133 to 65 against it.
—
wikipediaorg/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_2008#First_House_vote.2C_September_29
“The government has not chosen to use the same tools that it routinely uses when it’s prosecuting organized-crime cases.”
Is he talking about the RICO statues?
While we’re on this topic, let’s look at the media. So NPR builds up this writer and, surprise!, he say no one should go to jail:
‘In his new book, The Big Short, Michael Lewis…’More often than not, the people at the center of the doomsday machine were deluded themselves,” Lewis says. “The problem isn’t criminal behavior. … The story of American capitalism in recent history is not really the story of Bernie Madoff.’
‘Lewis says the story is one of bad incentives causing people to behave in bad — but legal — ways. ‘The best thing we can do is focus our energies on how to create the rules that prevent people from enriching themselves while impoverishing the rest of us,’ Lewis says.’
‘Economic policymakers have acknowledged the disaster, but many say they’re afraid of stifling innovation if they take action. ..’The failure so far in the response to the crisis has not been the failure to lynch a few people,’ he says.’
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124698825
A few trials might serve a useful purpose. If for no other reason than to illustrate that while their actions may have complied with the definition of “legal”, they are totally ammoral, and as such, should have no place at the table when public policy is determined.
I dispute that their actions were legal in terms of all the business codes and laws on the books .
* “There has not been a single prosecution of a senior financial services executive, either in investment or commercial banking.”
* “The government has not chosen to use the same tools that it routinely uses when it’s prosecuting organized-crime cases.”
Ingreedients:
“Financial Innovation” + Digits & commas + $Millions, $Billions, $Trillions
Warning!:
Do Not “over-season” with “the -bitterroot-of-pleasure blossom” aka: “Non-ethical” human manipulation.
‘Economic policymakers have acknowledged the disaster, but many say they’re afraid of stifling innovation if they take action’
IMO, this is how ‘consensus’ is manufactured. Were laws broken? If so, who gives a damn about ’stifling innovation’. Since when did something that vague even enter into criminal prosecutions?
And who are these ‘economic policymakers’? People like Frank and Dodd, with Moodys Mark Zandi sitting at the table? Jeebus, we need some tar and feathers!
“innovation”
Innovation to do what? To put FB’s on the hook for loans that will never be repaid, and to reward banksters with claims payments on free (government-provided) too-big-to-fail insurance policies which nobody even knew existed before the Fall 2008 financial crisis?
‘too-big-to-fail insurance policies which nobody even knew existed before the Fall 2008 financial crisis?’
Well…
‘This morning the global credit evaluation service, Fitch Ratings, held a conference call and issued a position paper titled “GSEs: Are the ‘AAA’ Ratings at Risk.” ‘Senior debt ratings…include an assumption of support from the US government that would be provided in the event of severe financial stress.’
‘If there was a major problem in their ability to issue debt, then the government would have to step in in order to support not just the GSEs but the overall economy as well,” said Fahey. “It’s very similar to support that we view in the money center banks in the United States.’
http://thehousingbubble.blogspot.com/2005/02/fitch-ratings-us-government-will.html
‘The potential for systemic risk arising from the GSEs’ size and their central role in mortgage markets combined with the difficulty of managing the risks inherent in a large mortgage portfolio raise fundamental questions about the value they add … relative to the risks their current operations pose,’ the White House said Feb 7th (2005).
‘A new regulator is called for with “expanded enforcement authority, the ability to place the businesses in receivership and “unambiguous authority” to set risk-based and minimum capital requirements, according to the budget document”.
http://thehousingbubble.blogspot.com/2005/02/us-government-to-bail-out-gses.html
‘The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight is pushing legislation through congress that prepares for the insolvency of the mortgage giants. Patrick Lawler, OFHEO chief economist told a forum “Receivership is a valuable thing”.
‘None of this is reported on the official website of the regulator. Also mentioned in this story was this tidbit;”..a coalition of 37 federal, state, and local groups urged the federal government and Congress to cut ties with Fannie and Freddie Thursday. Warning that Americans are threatened by a potential taxpayer bailout of the two companies”
http://thehousingbubble.blogspot.com/2005/02/fanniefreddie-regulator-preps-for.html
All of this was going on, and at the same time:
‘Freddie Mac unveils a new mortgage product intended for the ’savvy borrowers’. “(T)he second-biggest provider of financing for U.S. housing, said that it will expand its interest-only payment option to more adjustable-rate home loans to meet demand from borrowers”.
“(Its) designed for borrowers who fully understand that the monthly payment will rise following the interest-only period,” Freddie Mac said in the statement. The story points out “they are popular with consumers who are stretching financial resources and might not be able to repay the loans when interest rates rise.”
http://thehousingbubble.blogspot.com/2005/02/lenders-bottom-fishing-for-borrowers.html
This is all part of the plan
Step 1 make a lot of crappy loans and bundle them. Sell as many as you can to pension plans, government, and investors.
Step 2 market collapses, get government to prop up prices so you can offload the remaining crappy paper. Mostly to the GSE’s
Step 3 - Let GSE’s collapse repurchase crappy paper for pennies on the dollar. With cash hord provided by the FED, and with 0% FED loans, then for safety sake make sure the FED guarantees those loans.
Only the small fry appear to get convictions from RE fraud.
A California woman has received three years in prison for her role in a $1 million mortgage fraud scheme based in northern New Jersey.
Yi Feng “Penny” Reid of Irvine was sentenced Friday, the same day that co-defendant Yu Jane Chen of Naperville, Ill. pleaded guilty to theft by deception charges. Chen faces up to 10 years when she’s sentenced Nov. 19.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/10/02/state/n105528D38.DTL
* OCTOBER 1, 2010, 5:39 P.M. ET
UDPATE:Bank of America Asks Patience As Stockholders Stew Over Slump
By Marshall Eckblad
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
NEW YORK (Dow Jones)–Shares of Bank of America Corp. (BAC), the biggest U.S. bank by assets, have taken a beating, and institutional shareholders are grumbling–or selling.
The Charlotte’ bank’s stock ran dead last among the Dow Jones Industrials in the third quarter, losing nearly 9% when the index rose 10.4%. Four of the bank’s top 20 shareholders have sold 10% or more of their holdings since March, a bigger proportion than at competing banks.
In fact, since BofA reported earnings in July, shares are down 15%–a sharper slide than at any of its big competitors. Citigroup Inc. (C), for instance, is down 2.5% in comparison.
“I am…puzzled by some of the company’s public statements,” said Jeff Arricale, vice president at T. Rowe Price Group Inc. (TROW), the bank’s sixth-largest shareholder. Arricale said it’s “surprising that Bank of America isn’t disclosing more about the margins and returns it expects its businesses to earn.” He called the stock “very undervalued.”
One factor in the slide, say some investors: When Bank of America reported second-quarter earnings in July, it revealed billions in lost revenue due to pending financial regulations–but said little about how it would recoup it, unnerving investors.
Now, BofA’s Chief Financial Officer Charles Noski, speaking to Dow Jones in an interview, says of the disclosures, “We probably didn’t have a legal obligation to talk to investors about that until after the president signed the bill” the following week. But “communicating openly and transparently to investors is our philosophy and policy.” The bank contends accounting rules forced it to make disclosures ahead of its rivals.
Chief Executive Brian Moynihan said in September the bank would soon start raising some fees to compensate for lost revenue.
…
I wonder if all the bad countrywide loans have anything to do with poor performance?
Nobody forced Megabank of America to swallow Countrywide.
Did they?
I actually believe it was paulson holding a gun to mr lewis?
I think it was Merrile Lynch. Countrywide was a little before that.
I brieftly touched on this yesterday with the Meredith Whitney clip.
The banks didn’t have good “earnings” from revenues and loans. They had huge reallocations of debt. The FASB rules change that allowed them not to write down the bad loans and call them as losses, made huge “profits” when the loans were re-posted at face value.
They didn’t have an earnings driven business. They had an ENRON accounting business, counting losses as gains.
Now, they don’t have a way to increase earnings……….so what is the plan………..INCREASE FEES. That has been their model for a while.
Their main business of LENDING is not where the money is. Imagine that. A Bank makes most of it’s money from FEES, not interest on loans.
Of course their main way of making money isn’t lending. You have to have money to lend money. (Yes, even with fractional reserve lending you have to have some money to be allowed to make loans.) Where is all this money money going to come from? People? They are trying to pay down credit cards that charge them 20% interest or more, leaving a lot of money in the banks at 0.25% isn’t a great idea. Small businesses? They have all adopted the finance attitudes of the big companies and need lines of credit to make payroll. Besides, they are having a harder and harder time getting paid in less than 90 days from their customers. Seriously, they can’t borrow all of this money they are supposed to be lending from the Fed. They need reserves.
This is one reason why I am careful about where I keep my cash reserves. It is all protected by FDIC (which will not be repudiated) so it isn’t for safety. It is a moral choice.
Polly,
I am actually with you on this one. I had suggested about a year or so back that we all withdraw our money from the banks and hold it all in cash in a vault. 0.25% or less is a joke.
Since we can’t get any return on our money and the bankers see fit to loan it out at 20%, then screw them. I haven’t done it.
However, there are more and more laws about having any cash in large amounts. It is a scheme to keep the currency in circulation through the banking system (financial regulation).
However, we are being told it is about tracking and tracing terrorists, drug-dealers, and tax-cheats.
I haven’t seen much in the way of prosecutions from this, but more and more people are being subjected to police intimidation and extortion if they are holding cash.
I even had a friend who had a cop pull him over in one of the Western states and asked if he had large amounts of cash in the car. He was told, if he did, he would have to “turn it over” to the law enforcement officer. I’ve heard of several stories like this. Got $10,000 of legally earned cash, and filed income taxes? Too bad. That money needs to be in a bank or you are suspect of being a criminal. In fact, you are a criminal.
I love how those forfeitures work, too. Basically, you have to prove to the government that you earned it legitimately.
Of course, they are drawing the conclusion that no one can make that kind of money legally and anyone who has that much cash must have obtained it illegally.
Too bad they won’t apply the same line of reasoning to Wall Street.
Got $10,000 of legally earned cash, and filed income taxes? Too bad. That money needs to be in a bank or you are suspect of being a criminal. In fact, you are a criminal.
it all stems from the ‘war on drugs’ which is in reality a war on citizens and their sovereignty.
if this continues, our police will be the real highwaymen to be feared.
if any politician was trying to legalize all drugs, and he had a real chance to do so, it is the drug lords that would be the first to try to assassinate him. the drug lords know that legalization would put them out of business. they would just hate to have to work to earn a living.
This is only the beginning of government terror against the American people in the guise of The war on terror. Like Jefferson wrote in the first paragraph of the Declaration of Independence, there will be some spontaneous point when the people revolt.
That will be the time we decide we have a natural right to live our lives that may be against some of the religionist ideas, as well as a natural right to 100% of the fruits of our labor.
These days I consider police as mere drones enforcing terrorism (violations of the bill of rights) from occupying regimes at the local, state, and federal level. That I obey them is only in fear of losing what liberty I have left.
On the positive side, there are stirrings in favor of decriminalizing marijuana, and liberalizing gun laws, like in Az.
yes, there’s nothing to fear from legalizing drugs. it’s just not pleasant to look at. but it’s worth it to get the reduction in crime and to send the drug lords to the unemployment office.
Any chance a new round of fraud charges will be leveled at the nation’s top banks, due to shoddy paperwork on TENS OF THOUSANDS of foreclosure documents they supposedly processed?
Or how about a class action lawsuit against Megabank, Inc by those who were (possibly) wrongfully foreclosed?
Paperwork storm hits nation’s biggest bank
Bank of America, the nation’s largest bank, on Friday became the latest lender to put foreclosures on hold in 23 states because of concerns that court documents it submitted were improperly prepared.
Bank of America and other mortgage companies have been under pressure to review their paperwork after employees and contractors said in sworn depositions that, because of the enormous volume, they hadn’t had the time to read the documents, much less check them for accuracy.
“To be certain affidavits have followed the correct procedures, Bank of America will delay the process in order to amend all affidavits in foreclosure cases that have not yet gone to judgment,” spokesman Dan Frahm said in a statement.
A Bank of America executive, Renee Hertzler, said in a February deposition in Massachusetts that she signed as many as 8,000 foreclosure documents a month without reviewing them. The deposition is similar to others taken from document processors at J.P. Morgan Chase and Ally Financial, which have also frozen foreclosures over the past week. The statements were taken by lawyers for homeowners contesting the seizure of their homes.
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J.P. Morgan and Ally have said they believe in the factual accuracy of the documents they submitted. Bank of America said it was still conducting a review.
On Wall Street, the stocks of companies that insure titles for homes were down Friday on fears of the worst-case scenario: that flawed paperwork could be used in court cases by those who have been evicted to reclaim resold properties. At least one such company, Old Republic Title, has stopped insuring homes that were foreclosed on by Ally Financial or its GMAC mortgage unit.
…
…on fears of the worst-case scenario: that flawed paperwork could be used in court cases by those who have been evicted to reclaim resold properties.
Ho ho, hah hah, hehehehehehe, BwaHaHaAhHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! (Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb-thrower™)
They were given front row seat tickets to what they thought was going to be a world class Formula 1 race, only to find themselves mired in the “pit row” of a demolition derby on a very, very muddy course with a slew of inexperienced drivers…
“that flawed paperwork could be used in court cases by those who have been evicted to reclaim resold properties”
I wouldn’t be surprised to see someone try it, but I might be surprised to see a former FB actually get the house back. Then what? Can the lender then foreclose (again) in proper procedural fashion? Will the FB be able to pay back taxes and HOA fees? If the FB trashed the house and moved on to a rental in another state, would he even want it back?
Brings to mind those hapless spectators who were run over at a California race earlier this year somewhere on the Mojave Desert…
Off-road racing tightens rules after deadly Calif. crash
Submitted by SHNS on Fri, 09/24/2010 - 16:08
* By DUG BEGLEY, The Press-Enterprise
PRIMM, Nev. - After a day at the recent Terrible’s Primm 300 race in the southern Nevada desert, Dante Amis’s faded jeans were unusually clean. They didn’t have a spot of dirt on them, because Amis couldn’t get beyond a fence line 30 feet from the race.
“I didn’t feel like I was part of the action,” said Amis, 24. “I understand the need to keep the crowds away, but you want to be able to enjoy the race.”
Rules to safeguard racetrack crowds have gotten stricter since last month’s calamitous wreck in San Bernardino County, Calif., which killed eight spectators. But some race fans — expecting to breathe in off-road racers’ dust — criticized Primm’s promoters.
…
What’s it gonna be, Megabanksters: Bigger bonuses, or due diligence on foreclosure processing?
Business News
BofA joins others in foreclosure freeze
Published: Oct. 2, 2010 at 8:06 AM
A foreclosure sign is seen in front of a house on 16th Street NW in Washington on August 22, 2010. More than 2.3 million homes have fallen into foreclosure since the recession began in later 2007, according to RealtyTrac Inc. Economists expect the number of foreclosures to grow into 2011. UPI/Kevin Dietsch | Enlarge Enlarge
NEW YORK, Oct. 2 (UPI) — U.S. banking giant Bank of America said it would join other lenders in freezing its foreclosure actions, amid growing concern over paperwork issues.
In Connecticut, Attorney General Richard Blumenthal asked the courts to impose a 60-day moratorium on all foreclosures, as Bank of America’s announcement makes it the third large lender in the past two weeks, after GMAC Mortgage and JPMorgan Chase, to discontinue its pursuit of foreclosures.
Bank of America said it would review its paperwork and, in time, resubmit its filings, The New York Times reported Saturday.
The bank did not say how long that would take. Like GMAC, Bank of America did not say how many foreclosure cases would be affected by the freeze. JPMorgan Chase said it was reviewing 56,000 cases.
Blumenthal, who is running for a seat in the U.S. Senate, said a foreclosure moratorium would “stop a foreclosure steamroller based on defective documents.”
Critics pointed out that banks are processing huge numbers of foreclosures, but doing so with an eye on their own budgets.
Economist Thomas Lawler of Lawler Economic & Housing Consulting, said, “The foreclosure crisis is now almost three years old, and not having staffed up sufficiently to deal with the problems with inadequate staffing borders on criminal.”
“I mean, jeepers, look at the unemployment rate. How hard would it be to hire more folks?” he said.
I smell something fishy with all this.Just another excuse not to foreclose and keep inventory off the market?
I agree totally! The game is like a “kaleidoscope”, the facts haven’t changed but picture we’re being presented changes by the day in “HOPE” that we won’t notice.
I am watching good morning america and they are really playing up this foreclosure cancellation.They showed all the victims lined up in los angeles for help to save their house.
It seems manufactured indeed.
It isn’t manufactured, guys, it is the law. The people in the houses haven’t been paying. They clearly don’t have the right to keep the house. But the only folks who can take it away are the ones who have the right to do so. That is the owners of the note or their appointed representatives and only if they have jumped through the hoops to register that they note is applicable to that particular property.
I am all for this. They are going to have to hire people to deal with this mess. That is money going to people for a long day’s work not getting shuffled into bonuses for people who think they have figured out how to make money with no employees. The work will get done and the houses will end up on the market. Once they realize that it will take a few months to fix all the paperwork, they might even hire someone to winterize the houses, so there are more people getting paid a few bucks instead of all the money going into fake profit numbers to increase bonuses. Let the process happen. Relax. I’m just about ready to admit that I may be in this apartment for a long time - a very, very long time. Patience.
Thank you Polly.
Polly — You are awesome. Seriously. Your perspective is always appreciated…
Full lawyer employment days ahead!
What does this mean for people who have taken possession of homes foreclosed improperly? Will consideration have to be made to the former “owners”? If so, who will pay this consideration?
You are welcome and thank you. I really need a place to get this stuff out.
As for lawyer full employment? Eh, not really. The lawyers would do better if no one tried to fix this. They could spend years preventing foreclosures and filing law suits on behalf of people who had their house taken by someone who didn’t have the right to do it. And that doesn’t even include the suits against the states that didn’t enforce their own laws. Not sure if those would have gone anywhere, but they would have happened.
This sort of work is clerical, administrative and a little bit legal. You need organized paper pushers, people to train them, people to supervise them, people to keep their computers running, people to design/adminster their databases, and, yes, a few lawyers. This is what the banks get for not doing the work on the front end. They will be able to hire these folks at rock bottom prices because of the economy where they would have had to pay quite a bit to hire them if they had done the work on the front end. The banks are still winning, just a bit less than before.
And I consider “free rent” for the soon to be foreclosed upon home owners, to be a small price to pay in fairness when you consider that the alternative is more money for the dumb bond holders who thought that mortgage backed securities could still be perfectly safe in a world where their kid’s pet hampster could get a loan.
Polly is in favor of enforcing all laws, even bad laws violating our individual rights. But I refer to the Declaration of Independence first paragraph and insist we have a right to disobey bad laws.
but she’s right. we can’t choose which laws to enforce or obey or the laws don’t mean anything. we need to change the bad laws. it takes time, but it’s better than throwing the rule of law out the window. if we do that we get the rule of men which is tyranny.
Actually the Randians, which certainly preach small government (except the fictional anarchy of Galt’s Gulch), are so obedient of all laws, even tyrannical laws, you would expect them to shred the Declaration of Independence for it’s first paragraph.
On the other hand, the people at the time America fought for it’s independence, were better educated on what individual rights were. If we have a revolution now, based on the decline of quality American schools, would a freer society be the outcome?
Well I’m not better educated since I used “it’s” in place of “its.”
I make my own case.
On the other hand, the people at the time America fought for it’s independence, were better educated on what individual rights were.
you’re probably right. not only that but i believe people were more honorable back then.
regarding the revolution.. i don’t know, it would depend on a lot of variables.
We were recently discussing what percentage of stimulus money for various projects in the US ends up in China. Some people seemed to be saying that nearly all, or at least a large majority of it, would end up there (thereby supposedly proving that stimulus spending was ineffective in helping our economy). Here’s a hypothetical breakdown of a typical joe6pack’s (26, married, one kid) monthly bills. Let’s assume he gets a job on a stimulus-funded bridge construction job. What percentage of his earnings are going to China?
mortgage/piti……..$1200
utilities………………500
groceries…………….500
truck payment……….400
health insurance……..400
entertainment……….200
clothing………………100
gasoline………………200
“What percentage of his earnings are going to China?”
Directly? By these figures just a bit. But expand the circle a bit and you will find a lot of it does.
Over a quarter of a trillion dollars a year is sent from the US to China. That’s over a trillion dollars net. Somehow all this money ends up in China.
Because much of what is bought HERE is manufactured THERE then the money flow to pay for these manufactured things we Americans seem to like to buy also goes from here to there.
Every item you catalogued in your post will eventually be paid out in part in to someone in the form of wages. If these people that receive these wages buy Chineese made products then part of these wages will end up in China.
You also have to include the stuff that is used to build the bridge itself. It is one of the reasons that infrastructure projects look “inefficient” when you talk about amount spent per person put to work. Some of the money goes to the stuff.
I agree, but knowing nothing about civil engineering, I couldn’t hazard a guess as to costs in building a bridge. Arguably a lot of those costs also stimulate our economy, because I doubt the claims that all the concrete, steel, engineering, etc would come from China.
“… I doubt the claims that all the concrete, steel, engineering, etc would come from China.”
I doesn’t matter that none of these things come from China; It only matters that a part of all the wages that are associated with these things eventually - directly or indirectly - end up in China.
But just because some portion of the stimulus dollars (10%?) ends up in China doesn’t negate the overall value of the stimulus. Bills are paid, groceries bought, local businesses are supported, the velocity of money is increased, as the money moves through the economy. Some final portion ending up in China really doesn’t seem all that important, at least as far as weighing the value of a stimulus project.
Following that line of reasoning, why get out of bed in the morning? A portion of your wages will just end up in China.
“But just because some portion of the stimulus dollars (10%) ends up in China doesn’t negate the overll value of the stimulus.”
Doesn’t it? If 10% of a spent dollar goes to China and the rest of it stays in the US to circulate, then eventually ALL the dollars will end up in China.
“… the velocity of money is increased…”
If ten percent of each consumer transaction leaves the US and ends up in China then an increase in money velocity among consumers merely speeds up the flow rate of money going to China.
If each year a net quarter of a trillion of US dollars is sent to China via consumer purchases (or by any other means) then eventually China will end up with all of the US dollars.
“If each year a net quarter of a trillion of US dollars is sent to China via consumer purchases (or by any other means) then eventually China will end up with all of the US dollars.”
All of them? Did the Fed decomission its printing presses?
Don’t get me wrong, I agree that sending 250 billion a year to China is a recipe for disaster.
Our GDP is 14.59 trillion, so a quarter of a trillion is less than 2%. So I guess theoretically 2% of every stimulus dollar will go to China in any given year. Does that negate the value of all stimulus?
I always felt TARP was just about slowing down the crash and getting us back to stability. They bought themselves time to think.
It’s every program since we’ve stabilized that you have to ask why isn’t effort and spending going toward infrastructure? Where are our austerity programs? Why aren’t we clipping the waste in defense spending? Where are the cuts in state and local spending?
Maintaining the status quo which has been deficit spending for quite some time means our officials have no cajones and the train is still speeding toward the cliff. Perhaps the question we should be asking is how much of Joe 6pk’s income is going toward public debt support.
FYI…
From personal experience…. NONE of the stimulus $$ under ARRA for public projects goes to China. ZERO. All the executed contracts have a Buy America stipulation in them and they ARE ENFORCING IT… right down to the nut and bolt.
…. and it’s a royal PITA!!!
This sounds like a hole in the bottom of a cup where more water is being leaked out than in being poured in. So by printing more money the cup is being artificially filled and dollars are being devalued. Doesn’t this eventually get to the point that the dollar is devalued enough that importing Chinese goods becomes so expensive that the trade deficit is closed?
” … NONE of the stimulus $$$ under AARA for public projects goes to China. ZERO.”
I am not saying that any of the money for the projects is going to China; I am saying that part of the WAGES paid to those working on the projects is going to China.
When the WAGE EARNERS spend part of their WAGES for items made in CHINA then that part of their wages leaves the U.S. and ends up in China. It doesn’t matter from whence the wages are earned - public companies, private companies, government projects - if the wages are SPENT on items made in China then China is where the money ends up going.
One can stipulate that all money for a project must come from U.S.-based sources, but once the money is paid out from a project to the workers working on the project then the money goes to where ever the workers decide it should go. If the workers decide their earned money should go into buying Chineese products then off to China goes the money.
A project with tight buy American stipulations is but one transaction away from losing these stipulations: Once the money is paid out to wage earners the money is then released from any money flow restrictions.
Combo… I was disputing a anything. Just FYI as it relates to ARRA funding. And you’re right. After it’s spent on project related materials, it goes in all directions, i.e, China.
And isn’t that the reason for these public works projects in the first place? To put spending money in the hands of consumers?
But once spending money is in the hands of consumers then they turn right around and use this money to consume. Funny how that works.
But if the things they consume are made SOMEWHERE ELSE then this somewhere else place is where this consumer money ends up going.
Ours is a seventy-percent consumer-based economy, which suggest that only thirty-percent of our economy is based on production. So where is the production for all this consumption going to come from? Not here, remember, we’re a consumer-based economy, not a production-based economy.
China is a production-based economy. If the consumers in a consumer-based economy are to consume then they need to buy products from a production-based economy such as China because the consumer-based economy does not produce what consumers want to consume.
The government can throw all the money it wants to at our consumer-based economy but if consumers decide to consume Chineese made products instead of American made products then that is what they will do.
Just because a portion will go into China’s pocket (2% if my trade deficit/gdp calculation is correct), how does that negate the value of stimulus?
Here’s a thought experiment: If Joe Entrepreneur has a great new business idea to be built and staffed here in the US with well-paid workers, under your theory, it would be a waste, because a portion of those salaries will be used to purchase Chinese goods.
If Joe Entrepreneur has a great new business idea to be built and staffed here in the US with well-paid workers and nobody anywhere else can compete with this great new business then Joe Entrepreneur will probably get rich along with his employees.
But if Joe E. has a business that can be easily undercut by somebody else then Joe E. may have a bit of a problem staying in business.
Everything else in your post I am ignoring because it has nothing to do with the issue.
If the government of a country that has a consumer-based economy decides to sitmulate that consumer-based economy by throwing large chunks of money to consumers then this policy will result in many jobs being created.
But these newly-created jobs will be in some other country.
Everything else in your post I am ignoring because it has nothing to do with the issue.
Amusing, considering you also ignore the point you claim to be answering-about whether the new biz is a waste because a portion of the salaries paid (2%) will end up as a trade deficit with China, instead going off on a tangent about how they’ll all be rich.
So I repeat the question: Would this new business not be a waste, because a portion of salaries paid there will go to the trade deficit with China?
“So I repeat the question: Would this new business not be a waste, because a portion of salaries paid there will go to the trade deficit with China?”
No, the new business would not be a waste. In fact the new business would be part of the solution to the trade deficit.
But I am presuming this new business is not the result of a government stimulus program where taxes are collected from American citizens and distributed to this new business, in which case the end result would be a wash.
If the new business would keep at home money
If the government of a country that has a consumer-based economy decides to stimulate that consumer-based economy by throwing large chunks of money to consumers
Straw man! Who has suggested ‘throwing large chunks of money to consumers’? I suggested investing in long-term useful projects: electric grid, internet, mass transit, alternative energy. These are the technologies of the future- let’s subsidize them instead of Wall Street.
continued from post above …
If the new business would keep at home money that otherwise would go to a business in China (or anywhere else) then the new business would add to our economic strength. But if the new business merely recycles taxpayer dollars then it wouldn’t add to our economic strength, especially because receipiants of these recycled dollars would spend many of them elsewhere.
“Who has suggested ‘throwing large chunks of money to consumers’?”
This is a joke, right? What do you think all this talk about generating some inflation is about?
If pouring money we don’t have into an economy that is in depression isn’t all about simulating the economy then what do you think the purpose is?
…and, of course, any project the government spends on is always a waste. Like the internet thingy- no one ever found a way to monetize that.
New alternative energy technology would also be a big waste, what with oil being such a reliable long-term energy source…
“… and, of course, any project the government spends on is always a waste.”
Is this your position, or are you suggesting it is mine?
If you are suggesting this is my position then it is obvious you do not understand anything I have written.
Perhaps I should have repeated my original contention that led to the “China gets all the stimulus money’ rebuttal.
I said we needed to stimulate the economy by investing in things of long-term benefit to us (grid, internet, energy, yadda, yadda,). You keep producing these straw man ‘throw money at consumers’ arguments. You then say it’ll all end up in China anyway. I’ve yet to hear you explain how our bridge ends up in China.
Your argument seems to boil down to ‘we have to destroy the village (economy) in order to save it’. Anything we do now to invest in ourselves is worse than useless, it’s counter-productive.
When, praytell, does this period of helplessness end? Right after you finally get to ’snap up’ those dirt cheap stocks? Perhaps that time has already passed, eh? Don’t make the rest of us pay because you want an investment mulligan.
But if the new business merely recycles taxpayer dollars then it wouldn’t add to our economic strength,
If pouring money we don’t have into an economy that is in depression isn’t all about simulating the economy then what do you think the purpose is?
But I am presuming this new business is not the result of a government stimulus program where taxes are collected from American citizens and distributed to this new business, in which case the end result would be a wash.
The government can throw all the money it wants to at our consumer-based economy
All your words in the preceding posts. Now where in the world did I get the idea you thought government stimulus was a waste?
And can you explain where the internet fits in your government stimulus is waste theory. Or have I misunderstood your theory once again. Perhaps if you could explain it? Surely it’s not so simplistic that you’re saying because we have a consumer based economy, and because we run a trade deficit with China (2% of GDP), all government stimulus is a waste. Surely there’s some nuance I’m missing, that would make it seem less illogical.
The problem AS OF NOW is our economy is a consumer-based economy. It wasn’t always so, it may not always be so, but right now that is what it is.
If a consumer based economy is stimulated by adding money to it, whether by funding the building of a bridge or by any other means, then this money stimulation will eventually work its way through the economy to where the production resides. In a consumer-based economy the production resides elsewhere - otherwise the economy wouldn’t be termed a consumer-based economy.
What needs to be addressed is the fact that our economy is a consumer-based economy. It needs to be restructured to something other than a consumer-based economy if any of its problems are to be solved.
Funding a bridge project to stimulate the economy would work to help the economy IF our economy was not a consumer based economy. But because our economy IS A CONSUMER-BASED ECONOMY funding a bridge project with money we don’t have would do more to help other PRODUCTION-BASED economies more than it would help our own consumer-based economy.
Borrowing or taxing (or whatever) and then spending the borrowed or taxed money is such a way that it ends up somewhere else is an excellent way to go broke.
So we must destroy our economy in order to save it. There is no wise, productive government stimulus possible. No matter what we spend it on, it will be wasted on our continuing consumption binge.
When and how do we get out of our trap? How does our economy ‘restructure’, as you say it should? Do we have to wait until we’re no longer a consumer economy before we can invest in our long-term interests?
And again, what about the internet? Was that a government program that stimulated the economy? Even though we were a consumer economy at the time? How could such a thing be?
“Don’t make the rest of us pay because you want an investment mulligan.”
Lol. Okay, just for you, I won’t.
(As if I had some influence over events.)
(As if I had some influence over events.)
One presumes that’s why one posts. Otherwise, what’s the point? Are you here looking for a girlfriend?
“When and how do we get out of our trap.”
The first step is to stop spending money we don’t have.
Borrowing and spending created a consumer-based economy.
To fix this the borrowing needs to stop. This is true for governments just as it is true for families.
“One presumes that’s why one posts.”
One presumes wrong.
The first step is to stop spending money we don’t have.
Why? We can apparently borrow at amazingly low rates- maybe they won’t last forever, but while they do let’s use that money to invest in projects (that I refuse to name again) that will actually be of both short- and long-term benefit? Why is that impossible?
And won’t such investment encourage the belief amongst investors that we have a long-term plan, and lending us money at crazy low rates isn’t such a bad idea? Wouldn’t letting it crash do just the opposite?
“Why? We can apparantly borrow at amazingly low rates … ”
Because borrowing and spending distorts the economy.
Easily borrowed money will go where it otherwise wouldn’t. Easily borrowed money creates an economy that has candle-making stores and pirate stores and $700,000 McMansions in Fresno.
Easily borrowed money is what got us here. Easily borrowed money will not get us out.
Getting real with the economy will be what gets us out.
The thing is, we as individuals can’t easily borrow cheap money any more. But the government can.
Not all borrowing is a waste. If you borrow to invest in things of long-term benefit, like the internet, cheap renewable energy, an improved electrical grid, etc, then borrowing can make you richer.
Let’s not have the government invest in the pirate shops of Wall Street, but instead in the technologies of tomorrow. Properly applied stimulus can allow us to recreate our consumer society. Long-term investment _is_ the alternative to consumer society.
“The thing is, we as individuals can’t easily borrow cheap money anymore. But the government can.”
Lol. Yeah, that’s where I want to put my trust, in the government. Let the government handle things, they’ve done such a good job handling things so far.
Let the government expand the deficit a few trillion dollars more. Let us hear again from government officials that deficits don’t matter.
AT WHAT POINT DOES THE INSANITY COME TO AND END?
AND END = AN END
I guess it depends on your definition of insanity. Is it insane to think the invention of the internet was a long-term benefit for our economy? Is it insane to think such a thing might happen again? Why?
This ordinary bridge across the highway cost 17 Million. In Syracuse they have been working on 4 bridges near down town for 2 years. It seems like a very long time to build a simple bridge and they also had every imaginable piece of equipment known to mankind.
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/08/butternut_street_bridge_over_i.html
Let me know when you guys figure this out.
I like to think about those of us investing in BRIC and skimming our gains from our stokes. how much are we Americans earning off of China?
Stokes = stocks.
Ya , but come on now,..who has the time to make one themselves? Bah Humbug!
Animated Airblown Reaper with Carriage
* Reapers turns head as light flashes
* Self-inflates in seconds
* Everything included for set-up
* Collapses down for easy storage
http://www.lowes.com/pd_327050-80668-60208_4294801217_4294937087_?productId=3262307&Ns=p_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1&pl=1¤tURL=%2Fpl_Outdoor%2BHoliday%2BDecorations_4294801217_4294937087_%3FNs%3Dp_product_prd_lis_ord_nbr|0||p_product_quantity_sold|1
You left off “taxes”. A large portion of the Federal budget pays off interest on debt, e.g. bonds held by the Chinese. Joe6pack’s biggest payment to China may be in the form of his taxes. You can’t just look at his after-tax spending.
“Taxes” is “spending”.
With one kid, he’s going to need more than a $100/month in the clothing budget. The thing about kids, they grow.
More than half of Reno mortgages underwater:
http://ap.news-journalonline.com/dynamic/stories/N/NV_WASHOE_HOUSING_MARKET?SITE=FLDAY&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
“It just seems like we’re repeating ourselves again,” Wiseman said. “The federal government can’t keep propping up the industry. The only real solution is increased employment. It doesn’t matter if you have condos now priced as low as $23,000 or $30,000 if you don’t have the income to buy them.”
Reno. A little gambling town.
Quick Facts
Population Estimate for 2006: 211,697 (1)
Median Home Value in 2005: $319,400 (2)
Income Levels in 2005 (inflation-adjusted dollars):
Median household income: $42,214
Median family income: $53,390
Per capita income: $24,801 (2)
Note the Bubble house price vs. INCOME.
Wages have gone nowhere. It looks like one of the speculator capitals of the nation. I imagine it’s chaos in the housing sector.
Reno has been hit hard by the recession.They got so desperate that they are allowing sacramento to haul all their trash up there.I seen lots of trucks filled with trash heading there everyday on I-80.Did anyone see trash inc on cnbc the other day.There is big money in trash.
Out big corporations want it both ways. Cheap labor AND!!! Expensive things. We will not see wage inflation as long as our native population continues to have to compete with cheap overseas labor or cheap imported labor.
Me personally … I think the end result is baked in at a fundamental level…
They can want both ways all they want, if J6P is broke he won’t be buying houses, big azz pickup trucks and other toys.
The other day I read an article that predicted “record auto sales” in 2011 due to “pent up demand that has been building since 2007.”
Just because J6P would like a new vehicle doesn’t mean he can afford one. They just don’t get it. Even with subprime auto loans they’re pushing a rope.
I don’t think it matters to multinationals. Their customer base is rapidly increasing in Chindia although it may have remain flat here.
I have heard our economic problems are creating a headache for the Chindia area as well. Namely lack of demand for their garbage here and in Europe.
“The number of homes with upside-down mortgages in the Reno-Sparks area has declined, but industry experts said the seemingly good news is more likely due to higher default and foreclosure activity, as opposed to a rebounding housing market.”
This says it all about the media empire.
Fewer cases of The Plague have been reported, although this seemingly good news is more likely due to higher death rates.
What’s the deal and how do you read the sale history of a house like this one?
http://www.redfin.com/CA/Los-Angeles/2720-Veteran-Ave-90064/home/6754281
Thats a doozy. It looks recently renovated (by a flipper?). Can you go to your public records and get the name of the owner of record? That will give you more info with which to work.
This house is literally on the wrong side of the new light rail track. It’s been for sale for a long time with big price drops, but no where near where it ought to be for this hood, in my opinion.
Adventures in Short Sale continues…
Well, some low laying areas of southern Wisconsin might have had a quick touch of frost and then daytime temps are expected to warm up quite nicely again. These warm Autumn temps are great and all of the leaves and countryside are Fanastic. Some early leaves are coming down but the majority have yet begun to hit the peak of their full colors.
In small towns, Fall and Halloween decorations are up all over. We get ready to celebrate the change of seasons. The Pumpkin and Scarecrows and Autumn stuff are out. I love it !
That’s good enough for me. I officially declare this an Indian Summest and all those tiny snowflakes must stay away until I want a White Christmas! Let the OctoberFests begin!
Yesterday, I sat among some of those leaves on a big sunny back deck of an big empty house facing the woods thinking. I closed in less than two minutes, the next 5-7 minutes was chatting among RE agents and title company employees while awaiting for copies of the settlement statement papers and that all important fee-simple, free and clear Warranty Deed. The closing officer marched it across the street to the County Courthouse to be recorded and then will mail to me.
I put the electric, gas and trash collection in my name. The local mailman stopped by, took my change of address and shot the breeze for a few minutes. A local police officer, who is the brother of the pervious owner, stopped by and did the same. Both very nice guys. The kid in the local hardware store sold me a ladder, house and told me that he or any of his friends that had pickup trucks would glad to help me out if I needed any help with a large item in any store that didn’t normally deliever for free. One of them lives on my street and his family run and own an orchard.
I also ordered a big bunch of basic good furniture that I had previously decided on to supplement the junk that I have and what I got rid of as it is a large house. My friend will deliver my firewood as soon as I move and have my chimney cleaned for the year.
Afterwards, I returned across the state to the Rats Nest to finish packing. As I sat among those leaves thinking, I just spent a small fortune on a nice house and furniture and I didn’t even by a rake. That light carpet of colorful leaves appear to be quite happy and content there, let them lie there and enjoy the sunshine and the breeze for a while. What’s Wisconsin without a big pile of leaves?
The Deed is Done. mikey is well hidden in flyover country from gang shootings of LA, the fly n’ die terrorists on the east coast and the illegal hords from the south and I can nail any wayward Canucks sneaking in from the North from my elvated study facing the woods.
mikey now officially lives, at the center of the universe, on the edge of the known world, in a small town …in Flyover County, Wisconsin.
Congrats, Mikey, and happy Octoberfest!
The kid in the local hardware store sold me a ladder, house…
One house wasn’t good enough for you?! You had to buy another????
My classic joke is that the only difference between a “housing” and a “hosing” is U.
It may be just housing but mikey got everything that he wanted and more in this “hosing”. I’ve been around this old world a few times both living low and living high.
I’m not rich, a big shot or anyone special and I certainly don’t know everything about this thing we call life …but I sure know how to enjoy it. If you don’t believe that…just watch me.
I love and enjoy every single minute that is given to me as it is the best and only game in town as far as I know.
No matter how intelligent you are ,maybe the most intelligent are the ones that know how to enjoy life and make the best out of any situation .
“One house wasn’t good enough for you?! You had to buy another????”
Today I’m packing, munching, doing a zillion last minute things and then I’m off to see a veteran buddy who is stuck in the hospital. My fairly neat, poor rental hovel is as messy and confused as my mind normally is.
This is no time to make sense!!
Halloween decorations are up all over.
Now there’s something we still make in the USA!. Of course, it slightly violates Federal Child labor laws, and perhaps the miss-use of State issued property (tape, glue, sissors etc.) & the non-educational mis-application of employee/teacher labor but Mr.Cole was so proud of his home made Jack-O-Lantern’s, that I’d didn’t have the heart to ask him if the “tool implements & materials” came from China. (He seemed quite pleased that we didn’t go to Woe-Mart.)
Congrats ya Squareheaded Bucky Badger!
Thanks hwy and thanks all.
I will eventually be moved in and settled, it might take a little while to make it presentable.
I will be fairly close to Madison, the Dells a
continued — (this silly laptop and mouse are working against me on my light table)
In any event, I will be close to Madison, Wisconsin Dells and other local attractions. Most important, I will be close to a rural America and a way of life that could and probably will change forever in our lifetimes.
Once I am settled, give me a shout if you are passing through or plan to see it sometime before it is all gone. It’s a little way off the beaten track but you can’t beat the rates at the mikey hotel and the people and places are considered fun, quaint and enjoyable to strangers. We even have nice Amish folk not far away if we’re not different enough for you city slickers.
Heck, I even know one beautiful scenic country lane with hills n’ vistas, farms and rivers that one of our local US Post Men had for 30 years. During his lunch breaks, he used to stop, place and maintain his little bluebird houses on the fenceposts that he build in his basement for all those years. He is still alive, now retired, well loved by all and he occassionally still drives that pretty rural country route…just because he loves it!
Only in America!
Hey, congrats mikey! Glad that everything worked out for you…
Dennis is well hidden in flyover country from gang shootings of LA, the fly n’ die terrorists on the east coast, and the illegal hordes from the South: and I can nail any wayward Canucks sneaking in from the North from my elevated study facing the woods.
Dadburn Canucks want to sneak over the Idaho border with BC to steal our potatoes and dairy products to make poutine. Gotta watch out for those guys.
“Not Guilty / Nolo contendere by way of “Financial Innovation”"
Don’t ya just love a “flexible” judicial system?
Meanwhile back in the Courthouse for “people-who-wear-suits-with-logo’s”:
Snoopy: BWAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! (fpss™)
Judge Lucy: “The Beagle will stop laughing or face my wrath…now were was I?,…oh yes, the clerk will research whether or not I am bound by Federal Minimum sentencing standards in regards to these cases, (blah,blah,blah…clerk Marcia speaking)… there’s how many?, (blah,blah,blah…clerk Marcia speaking)… I don’t give a hoot if they have “connected” families & are “fine, upstanding members of their moose-elks-jackalope clubs!,(blah,blah,blah…clerk Marcia speaking)…The Beagle is their lawyer?…oh, good grief! Arrggggggggggghhh!
A respite in Texas,…for those recently moving rapido from Arizona.
The Catholic church building boom in Texas
Thursday September 30, 2010
Categories: Bishops, Churches, The People in the Pews / BeliefNet
Bishop Michael Pfeifer called it the biggest building boom he’s seen in his 25 years as bishop of the diocese.
“There’s been a lot of demand for constructing new buildings,” he said. “Buildings aren’t the most important thing in the world — people are — but to me it’s a sign there are many people coming to our churches and wanting more space for worship, prayer, teaching, religious education and other activities.
“I tell our priests (that) when the demands are there to have to build more churches, that’s a happy problem. That means we’ve got a lot of people.”
Catholicism, too, is growing in smaller communities such as Mertzon, about 29 miles southwest of San Angelo.
Holy Redeemer’s parish is growing, Getigan said, and so is the number of children.
“Every year we see a growth of 50 to 80 kids, and this parish is a young parish — a lot of young people are coming to Holy Redeemer,” he said.And that’s just for starters. Praise God.
You’d be surprised at how many hispanics, especially illegals, are evangs or fundy converts.
Aother thing to consider too is that when a new catholic parish is built or an existing one is expanded it is funded by the parish itself (as in via hefty pledges from parishioners). Hispanics and illegals, who are usually poor, do not contribute to these pledges (I know from experience).
So what I’m saying is that most likely the bulk of the newcomers are “anglos”.
Morning, all. Haven’t been able to read as much as I’d like to, lately, but wanted to poke my head in and ask for any suggestions/complaints about the JT Extension. I think I’m going to put some time into it this weekend.
Let me know any feedback you might have (good, bad, or ugly. Hopefully it’s mostly good!). My plan is to change the position of the toolbar to allow things to load and layout faster.
Might add a “political slant” mode, where you can set whether you want to suppress the blatantly partisan democratic or republican posters
Anyway, hope people are still finding it useful. I’m off to Oktoberfest today, so likely will just be reading any responses late in the evening.
I don’t want to set my filter to a political slant, I just want it to filter rude without hiding replies. Got anything for me?
Where has the stimulus bill money been used on NEW infrastructure such as new bridges. Here in Florida, all I have seen is a massive effort to skim coat repave every road in sight including pigtrails. This seems to me to be a way to move huge dollar amounts out the door, use a minimum of skilled workers, reward politically connected contractors, and produce little long term improvement in infrastructure.
Sorry, this should have been included in the thread above.
“reward politically connected contractors”
Just like the GOP. There isn’t a contractor out there that isn’t in bed with a GOP politician.
I wasn’t defending how the stimulus has been spent so far- quite the opposite. I was opining that we needed some real stimulus spending, like on mass transit, the internet, the electrical grid, alternative energy. Stuff that would be an investment in the future, not more money for fat cats to bid up commodities and give themselves bonuses.
People were saying that all the stimulus money ends up in China anyway, so stimulus is just a waste, and I wanted them to show me the route all that money takes to get there. I don’t think it’s been shown yet, but I’m awaiting updates before I declare the ‘China gets it all’ theory to be a ‘bare assertion fallacy’.
“People were saying that all the stimulus money ends up in China anyway, so stimulus is just a waste, and I wanted them to show me the route the money takes to get there.”
Let me give it a shot:
Joe6pack gets paid stimulus money. He take some of this stimulus money to Walmart and buys lots of goodies that are made in China. Since shelf space is created by Joe6packs spending Walmart orders more goodies to replace the goodies sold to Joe. Everyone in China that is associated with the production and distribution of these replacement goodies benifits as a result.
Mary works in Walmart. Part of what Joe spent in Walmart ended up in Mary’s paycheck. Mary takes some of this money and buys toys for her kids at a toy store. These toys were made in China. When Mary bought the toys shelf space was created in the toy store. More toys are ordered from China to fill up the shelf space. Employees in the toy factory in China are happy because money continues to flow from the US into China for more toy production.
Sam works in the toy store where mary bought the toys and part of what Mary spent on toys ended up in his paycheck. Sam needs appliances for his house, the appliances he decides to buy were made in China…
Etc.
I have no idea why you’d believe that any significant portion of the retail price paid for a Maytag appliance, or a HP printer would end up in China.
Any thoughts about how to approach our current LLs about buying their house?
It’s a teensy 1960’s ranch by the beach, 1,350 sq. ft. They bought in mid 90’s for about $80k. They were asking $279k when they took it off the market to rent to us for $1,100. If I take out the TI they’d have to sell at about $130k for the nut to match rent. I highly doubt they’ll do that.
OTOH, I don’t want to piss them off because we like renting from them. It seems that the only way to buy in Florida now is directly from someone who has owned the house for a very loooooooong time. Otherwise, you’re skipping through Fraudville.
BTW, they have a tight relationship with the prop. manager who was also the listing realtor, so I think writing them directly would not be kosher. I might just mention in passing to keep us in mind if they want to sell.
Maybe ask the landlord what he’d sell it to you for? That way you don’t have to name a number first, but you can gauge how hard he has been hitting the koolade.
“Hi Mrs LL, how’r you? My cousin from Idaho visited me last month and really likes this house and the neighborhood. We got to talking about it and he asked me how much it might sell for. I told him property prices were falling fast, and I had no idea what it might be worth today. But I agreed to ask you if it was for sale… so here we are..”
A couple of questions…
1) How long have you been renting it? (Lease or month to month? and are rents stable or changing?)
2) Does the LL live nearby?
3) Is it actively on the market?
4) What are nearby houses going (or not going) for?
5) Does the LL have a mortgage on it, or (if owned free and clear) would it be to their (tax) advantage to hold a note on the property?
Perhaps you can inquire about a longer term lease or what would happen if it sold, etc… and imply you’re worried about having less nice landlords or getting kicked out of a house you love… wistfully saying you wish you could afford it and perhaps making them wonder if they might lose responsible tenants.
1.) 3 months (LOVE the neighborhood, good schools, o.k. house).
2.) LL lives in Buffalo, and is in poor health
3.) It was on the market for two years, taken off when we rented it (which was great BTW, they fixed it up to sell, new roof, paint, appliances, etc.)
4.) Nearby houses sold in the $180k range
5.) Owns free and clear
Just wondering…..
For all kinds of reasons, it appears to me that the USA is going to be FUBAR for the next 10-15-20 years. All kinds of problems, with no consensus on what caused them, much less any kind of how to address them. In the meantime, the crooks at all levels are so numerous, the system actually is becoming dependent on them for “growth”. And we’re going to have at least two more years of gridlock, because the Republicans have somehow started to believe that differences of opinion are criminally prosecutable.
We may (or may not) get things straightened out in 10-20 years. In the meantime, my peak earning years are being lost, thanks to a totally crappy Main Street economy in general, and a Depression level economy in my area of expertise.
So…….where does one move to? Relocating to a Banana Republic is okay, because the USA is turning into a Banana Republic anyway, so it doesn’t make much difference. Thailand? China? (I have leads on jobs there)…Brazil? Canada? Australia? Do any of these countries have restrictions against immigrants with technical skills?
Inquiring minds want to know…….
So…….where does one move to? Relocating to a Banana Republic is okay, because the USA is turning into a Banana Republic anyway, so it doesn’t make much difference. Thailand? China? (I have leads on jobs there)…Brazil? Canada? Australia?
you may want to check ‘internationalliving’ and ‘escapeartist’ and ‘expatriots’. just google them for the website.
the sad part is that most countries have drunk the keynesian kool-aid and are getting sick. corruption is bad here, but it is really bad in countries that most people escape to. we should really try to straiten out the mess we have here. this country is worth saving.
None of those other nations has any rag with a “bill of rights.” how are those other places with respect to gun ownership? Arizona just liberalized it’s gun laws, meaning it made them less restrictive. Nice to be a gun owning liberal when back home in Sheriff Joe territory.
yes, i don’t see another country to replace the USA. as a matter of fact i think many of the other countries are only safe to live in right now because of the freedom and rights and power the united states had. all of that is starting to slip away..
You guys are disappointing me……this “the US is better than anywhere else” stuff is not what I expected.
We’ve been in the middle of this charlie-foxtrot for two years now. And I see no progress on addressing any of the issues affecting this country. If the Repubs get elected, don’t expect any for two more years.
It’s sorta like my former marriage. It starts going bad, and you stick with it, thinking you can make it work out. But at some point in time, you have to make a decision about moving forward with your life.
On a personal note, it has become increasingly obvious over the years that what I do is not valued highly in this society, or by the people that I work for. And they won’t, until things start blowing up in their faces. I’m not talking just accidents…..I’m talking about “dispatch reliability” of their high-dollar piece of equipment.
I’lll be lucky of I gross 60K in my new role as “independent contractor” this year, and to do it, I’ve got to make a 75 mile commute. OTOH, I can probably make six figures plus in Thailand, Singapore, or China.
My visit to court this week just illustrated that this country is currently designed around extracting as many fees as possible from guys like me. The plan was to make it as time consuming and expensive in both time and money as they could, so I should just fork over the dough and go away, while the illegals/losers in court for public intoxication, etc. get free interpreters and court appointed attorneys.
My visit to court this week just illustrated that this country is currently designed around extracting as many fees as possible from guys like me.
Traditionally that’s been where the money was. That golden goose may have breathed its last breath, though.
X-GSFixer, this country is tied up with all the litigation and lawyers. I think the U.S. is the most bureaucratic nation in the world.
At some point, you won’t be able to step outside without breaking a law. Or yes, you have to buy expensive insurance just to go outside.
It needs a Bureaucrash (and I’m not the first to coin that term).
Most countries make it next to impossible to immigrate unless you have a bag full of money with you. Unlike the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave they believe in protecting their job base for their own citizens.
Colorado…. that is certainly true of Canada. I know as I tried to emigrate there in 2004. Unless you’re at the very top of your field or have immediate family (not cousins, aunts and uncles), you’re not getting in.
PS- I have relatives in Quebec province.
Unless you’re at the very top of your field or have immediate family
They have a point system. You don’t have to be on top of your field. Any mediocre H1B visa getter in USA will have no problem meeting the points required.
In Mexico they immediately deport their illegals when captured and it is next to impossible to become a citizen.
They are also building a fence in THEIR southern border…
Wasn’t there a move for libertarians to take over a state a few years ago? Maybe HBB’ers could then take over a county in that state.
It was called the “Free State Project”. Idaho almost won the vote but they picked New Hampshire instead.
Medical-Government collusion
U.S. apologizes for Guatemala STD experiments
Government researchers infected patients with syphilis, gonorrhea without their consent in the 1940s
Stupid headline, somehow they imply that it’s OK to do so if people give consent to such things.
wwwmsnbcmsncom/id/39456324/from/39457275
i see that Hilary is directly involved.
clinical research… testing.. exploiting the poor.
This somehow connects with Obamacare and the coming elections.
Took them 60 years to apologize?
It was a very well-considered apology.
Sara is an evil, vindictive, fame, seeking, nasty, dingbat. Why is she liked by other dingbats is beyond me.
Who Stole Feminism?
Sarah Palin opposes abortion and comprehensive sex education. While mayor of Wasilla she made sexual assault victims pay for their own rape kits. She also calls herself a feminist. Delaware GOP Senate nominee Christine O’Donnell has said that allowing women to attend military academies “cripples the readiness of our defense” and that wives should “graciously submit” to their husbands—but her website touts her “commitment to the women’s movement.” Pundits who once mocked women’s rights activists as ugly bra burners are abuzz over the “new conservative feminism,” and the Tea Party is lauding itself as a women’s movement.
The right once disparaged feminism as man-hating and baby-killing, but now “feminist” is the must-have label for women on the right. Whether or not this rebranding strategy actually succeeds in overcoming the GOP’s antiwomen reputation is unclear (see Betsy Reed, “Sex and the GOP”). After all, Republicans have long supported overturning Roe v. Wade, voted against family and maternity leave, and fought groundbreaking legislation like the Lilly Ledbettter Fair Pay Act. When it comes to wooing women’s votes for the GOP, there’s a lot of damage control to do.
http://www.thenation.com/article/155109/who-stole-feminism
dang.. The Tea Party must be coming on strong with women voters for it’s opponents to dig the feminist movement out of it’s grave..
I am sure you attitude will be popularly received in a Muslim country.
Do we have a Muslim Mullah among us?
One of us is calling women evil, vindictive and nasty… and it ain’t me.
It is nothing more than bible thumping spin. Those same right wingers tried pandering to black voters by saying abortion is racism, since minority fetuses get aborted.
Blacks make up about 12% of the US population yet have over 40% of all abortions.
The KKK would be proud.
Thank you for making my case about conservatives pandering.
Estimated number of cats and dogs entering shelters each year: 6-8 million.
Estimated number of cats and dogs euthanized by shelters each year: 3-4 million.
(US Humane Society)
Does the left view this as pandering?
No. This is a crisis which must be addressed.
The Nation is a weekly[2] United States leftist periodical devoted to news, politics and culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nation
The Weekly Standard is the magazine on the conservative side.
Sara is an evil, vindictive, fame, seeking, nasty, dingbat. Why is she liked by other dingbats is beyond me.
How’s she any different than Pelosi, Boxer, Bachman, Waters, Hilary, and many other female politicians (or male politicians)? She fits right in.
I don’t get the obsession the lefties have with her. If she’s a dingbat, ignore her like I do.
I think Pelosie is a moonbat Sara is a dingbat there is a difference. I don’t think Pelosie is mean vindictive shameless ignorant bumpkin like Sara Palin. Sara Palin is just gross. She gives American women a bad name. Not so much with Pelosie. At least Hillary has decent education behind her and is competent. People just do not like Hillary I don’t know why?
Guys who like Sara Palin just want to see her naked.
So am I to assume that you like see Hilary naked?
The only reason lefties dont like her because she has an “R” after name. Were she a democrat, she would have been biggest thing after the slice of bread to your kind. I know how the game is played.
I don’t care about either party. Rep and Dems are 1 snake and 2 heads.
“evil, vindictive, fame, seeking, nasty, dingbat.”
Shh! She’ll hear!