The Housing Bubble

Does this mean the hedge funds that shorted housing we gambling on the housing gamblers gambling on gambling?

(and at what point do we get to “Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo”)?

The problem is that manufacturing is always one tier below the consumers. We buy it; China (one tier beow) makes it. When we run out of funny money and Chinese workers become too expensive to employ, then China will buy it and Vietnam (one tier below) will make it.

Lather, rinse, repeat, race to the bottom until all we’re left with is the Sudanese buying cheap crap made in North Korea. A few CEO’s will live in a private fortresses and the rest of us will live in mud huts and live on one bowl of rice a day.

Wow think about all the weight we will lose! Thats the key to a healthy America.

Lather, rinse, repeat, race to the bottom until all we’re left with is the Sudanese buying cheap crap made in North Korea.

Except that… the robots* will soon produce everything.

I’m not sure where that leaves us?

*See my comment below about Automation Insurance

Except that… the robots* will soon produce everything.

with a higher value of labor that will produce more jobs with higher pay.

“with a higher value of labor that will produce more jobs with higher pay.”

I think you missed his point: that if everyone can be replaced with Artificial Intelligence and Automation, that there will be no jobs.

SciFi material for sure, but interesting to think about. Ever see “Colossus: The Forbin Project”?

tj, you really are a one-trick pony, aren’t you. Please tell me what all these high-value laborers will be doing.

Please tell me what high-value Americans will design that the Chinese won’t reverse engineer or counterfiet in 1/5 the time.
Please tell me what skills an American will have that India couldn’t train their young men to do within a 5-year time frame. Sure, they might be only half as good but they cost 1/3 as much — what company would reject those numbers?
Please tell me how long those high-value laborers will actually be working until the company takes the high-value product and automates it and ships it overseas.

I think you missed his point: that if everyone can be replaced with Artificial Intelligence and Automation, that there will be no jobs.

no, you missed the concept.

some people were afraid of the cotton gin too. what would happen to all the jobs that people had picking cotton? those jobs would disappear never to be seen again. so would we have been better off without the cotton gin? no, the labor became automated and the value of labor increased. those people who were hand picking cotton got better and higher paying jobs because their jobs were forever eliminated by the cotton gin.

stop fearing progress as some evil thing. automation helps all of us.

Please tell me how long those high-value laborers will actually be working until the company takes the high-value product and automates it and ships it overseas.

let then ship it overseas. there’s nothing to fear from that. if they can make something cheaper overseas, that only means that the world can buy it cheaper which is great for the economy of the whole world including us.

no one can predict what might be made in the future. but to assume that nothing will be is to ignore history. new and better will always come about in a free market.

protectionist fears only drag everyone in the world down.

let then ship it overseas. there’s nothing to fear from that. if they can make something cheaper overseas,..protectionist fears only drag everyone in the world down.

Nothing to fear from that? We do fear it because our lives have changed for the worse because of it. Yours are concepts promoted by the rich and powerful who become richer and more powerful because of them.

You’re spouting the self-serving dogmatic nonsense that failed the American people but benefited our TBTF masters.

It is not just theory anymore. It is now proved to have gutted the American Middle Class. The “free-market” lies attempt to cover this up but it is not coverable anymore. This is why TPTB’s PR machine is in hyper-drive now

You have no idea how other countries protect their people’s jobs much better that the USA.

Or maybe you actually do and that’s what threatens you and yours.

stop fearing progress as some evil thing. automation helps all of us.

I’m hoping for a future where everything is done by robots using infinitely renewable, clean energy and we only work when we want to. And by “work” I mean, following our true passions and doing all the things that we would have done if we didn’t have to have a stupid “day job”.

They call me a dreamer…

I’m hoping for a future where everything is done by robots using infinitely renewable, clean energy and we only work when we want to. And by “work” I mean, following our true passions and doing all the things that we would have done if we didn’t have to have a stupid “day job”.

good for you lavi’d. it’s a worthwhile goal we should all be striving for. you and i wont see it, but we can start on the path towards it.

Nothing to fear from that? We do fear it because our lives have changed for the worse because of it. Yours are concepts promoted by the rich and powerful who become richer and more powerful because of them.

just the opposite. your lives have become better for it but you think it has hurt you. the thing that has really hurt you is government interference in the markets.

——–

You’re spouting the self-serving dogmatic nonsense that failed the American people but benefited our TBTF masters.

again, the truth is the opposite of what you’re saying.

———-

It is not just theory anymore. It is now proved to have gutted the American Middle Class. The “free-market” lies attempt to cover this up but it is not coverable anymore. This is why TPTB’s PR machine is in hyper-drive now

it wasn’t even theory. it was just more self-serving dogma spouted by liberals. you can’t put taxpayers on the hook and THEN yank the regulations. but the taxpayer should never have been on the hook in the first place. then the government regs wouldn’t have been necessary.

———–

You have no idea how other countries protect their people’s jobs much better that the USA.

yes, the same protectionism that erodes the productivity of trade. it lowers everyone’s standard of living no matter what your dogmatic beliefs are telling you.

———-

Or maybe you actually do and that’s what threatens you and yours.

no, i believe that protectionism harms me and mine and everyone else. no good comes of it.

no, i believe that protectionism harms me and mine and everyone else. no good comes of it.

You are wrong on all counts above. You only parrot now disproven ideological dogma that benefits those in control.

I am not ignorant to how capitalism works under different systems as are most Americans. I’ve been to many countries and live in a country with very strong protectionist policies that are adding to the middle-class, are growing faster than the USA and have greater worker protections.

There IS a price to be paid though as there are no free lunches.

The price to be paid is more expensive consumer goods.

But, if Americans were aware of the trade-offs, I’m sure they would rather have a good job with benefits but pay more for their toaster than to have cheap toasters and crap jobs with no benefits.

You and yours consider a “high standard of living” as the availability cheap toasters and high corporate profits to be divided by the top.

I consider a “high standard of living” a good job, time for my family and piece of mind.

tj, the “jobs” that picked the cotton weren’t jobs; it was SLAVERY. Do you really want to go there?

I ask you which high-value products we can produce, and your answer is “Meh, we’ll think of something.” Yeah, there’s some high value right there.

Are you suggesting that we eliminate all the jobs and THEN assume that private industry and the free market will figure out what to do with the restless masses, most of whom are not smart enough or educated enough to produce all these futuristic as-yet-unknown high-value products that you are so fixated on? Are you gunning for Dickens, Somalia, or Rome?

Who the F*8k ARE you? Dick Cheney?

stop fearing progress as some evil thing. automation helps all of us.

Like robo signing?

I’m hoping for a future where everything is done by robots using infinitely renewable, clean energy and we only work when we want to. And by “work” I mean, following our true passions and doing all the things that we would have done if we didn’t have to have a stupid “day job”.

They call me a dreamer…

Imagine a society of 100 total people. Imagine that ten of the people developed a special machine that could provide *everything* for everyone. All the food, clothing, shelter, and entertainment and anything else anyone could imagine.

I can imagine two possible outcomes from that. One is that the ten choose to give away the product from the machine creating a utopia for everyone. The other is that they use their economic power to make the others dependent and eventually enslave them by using their wealth to eventually control all means of production and thereby making the others completely dependent on them…and always make them work for everything they receive at market labor rates even though the value of their work is being driven to zero by the output of the machine.

Knowing human nature, which outcome do you think is more likely?

You are wrong on all counts above. You only parrot now disproven ideological dogma that benefits those in control.

disproven in your mind, not by facts. austrian economics is time tested and proven. keynesian ‘economics’ is a fairy tale. it has never worked even though they are sure it will eventually and so they keep trying. what a waste.

———–

I am not ignorant to how capitalism works under different systems as are most Americans.

capitalism only works with free markets.

——–

I’ve been to many countries and live in a country with very strong protectionist policies that are adding to the middle-class, are growing faster than the USA and have greater worker protections.

they are growing faster than in the USA because we have turned to socialism fast than they have. the more socialism, the worse things get.

——–

There IS a price to be paid though as there are no free lunches.

that’s right. and the world will be punished for turning to socialism. most won’t learn until the pain is very great. we will get there.

———

The price to be paid is more expensive consumer goods.

and shortages. and high unemployment. and loss of freedom.

——

But, if Americans were aware of the trade-offs, I’m sure they would rather have a good job with benefits but pay more for their toaster than to have cheap toasters and crap jobs with no benefits.

if they become aware of the cost of protectionism, they will reject it.

———-

You and yours consider a “high standard of living” as the availability cheap toasters and high corporate profits to be divided by the top.

i don’t care about corporate profits. in a free society, they get reinvested to produce more and better paying jobs. in tyrannical society, they buy off big government to get laws passed in their favor. as always, corporations only get their power through the government gun. the only answer is to reduce the size and power of government.

————–

I consider a “high standard of living” a good job, time for my family and piece of mind.

then you better embrace free markets and small government.

tj, the “jobs” that picked the cotton weren’t jobs; it was SLAVERY. Do you really want to go there?

now there’s a strawman if i ever saw one. hand picked cotton lasted after the civil war by a number of years. it’s a valid example. but you can say that about any automation. factory made rifles made with automation replaced hand made ones. production of cars and planes became more and more automated. the list is endless along with the benefits.

———-

I ask you which high-value products we can produce, and your answer is “Meh, we’ll think of something.” Yeah, there’s some high value right there.

more efficient production leads to new products and better jobs.

——–

Are you suggesting that we eliminate all the jobs and THEN assume that private industry and the free market will figure out what to do with the restless masses, most of whom are not smart enough or educated enough to produce all these futuristic as-yet-unknown high-value products that you are so fixated on?

no ‘we’ don’t eliminate jobs. advancing technology does. then we get rewarded with more and better paying jobs. all some people ever see is the jobs lost to technology. not the value added.

no one cast forecast what new jobs will be created, only that they will be necessary for businesses to make more money. that’s what the greedy business men want. more money. so they invest in technology and skill sets that will help them to get it. and they are willing to pay more than the next guy for someone willing to learn new skills.

Who the F*8k ARE you? Dick Cheney?

who are you? karl marx?

if they become aware of the cost of protectionism, they will reject it.

Well TJ. You sound like a paid shill for the Cato Institute. But not a good very one because you offer no examples or facts. You’ve shown nothing.

I and other posters here have given you a concrete, here and now example of a once great country on decline because of the rich giving our jobs away in the name of your church of “free-markets”. It is and will go down in history as a failure.

All you offer is a boilerplate, shill defense that doesn’t do a good job defending the indefensible which by definition it could not anyway.

“let then ship it overseas. there’s nothing to fear from that. if they can make something cheaper overseas, that only means that the world can buy it cheaper which is great for the economy of the whole world including us.”

Cheaper doesn’t do much good when you are unemployed or even if you are if your income has tanked.

“who are you? karl marx?”

I see. If someone doesn’t agree with you, they have to be commies. It’s all either black or white. No shades of gray. It’s interesting how much secular fundamentalism has in common with the religious variety.

“no one cast forecast what new jobs will be created, only that they will be necessary for businesses to make more money. that’s what the greedy business men want. more money. so they invest in technology and skill sets that will help them to get it. and they are willing to pay more than the next guy for someone willing to learn new skills.”

Offshoring has pretty much proven that to be false. Corporate America is more than happy to hire mediocre 3rd world employees who will work for peanuts. And now they can also get some pretty decent ones who are bargain basement priced.

Now I won’t contest that there might be some very cutting edge stuff that could only be done here initially, but by its own nature it will be a small niche that will only provide employment for a minority of very elite folks, and even then it will be offshored very quickly.

As Rio as pointed out, just about every other nation in the world has policies to foment the creation and preservation of high quality employment and for good reason. Meanwhile we Americans are expected cheer the loss of our jobs.

As I have been told over and over again by folks from countries that are eating our lunch: “You Americans are stupid!”

“who are you? karl marx?”

I see. If someone doesn’t agree with you, they have to be commies. It’s all either black or white. No shades of gray. It’s interesting how much secular fundamentalism has in common with the religious variety.

Say…I missed where you beat up on the previous poster that said “Who the F*8k ARE you? Dick Cheney?”. Instead you beat up on this poster for replying to this asinine comment - and it is quite an asinine, ad hominem comment. I’d say you fit right in with your assessment regarding fundamentalism! Pot, meet kettle.

austrian economics is time tested and proven.

Where and when?

As I have been saying for several years now, we need to figure out how to get real money into the hands of Americans, while using the third world or automatons or whatever cheap efficient way there is of producing the stuff we need, while not just dumping Americans in the economic sewage while doing so. Right now, millions of Americans are dropped into the sewer while firms keep off-shoring our work with NO replacement in sight.

As it stands, we ARE a work ethic society, and unless we can decouple the idea of work and money we are doomed to live like the rest of the world, and they are doomed to return to the even worse state they came from before our money started pouring into their countries.

As it stands right now, if you are an American and out of work, you are screwed. We have trillions of dollars of infrastructure projects in need of doing in the US. How about starting with a $trillion dollar upgrade to our infrastructure, and see the benefits of the long term investment on our own soil. If the workers want to buy cheap chinese walmart junk with their money, so what?

tj,

The cotton gin did not replace the hand labor that picked the cotton. It replaced the hand labor that sperated the seeds from the cotton. And as a result slavery actually increased.

According to the Eli Whitney Museum site:

Whitney (who died in 1825) could not have foreseen the ways in which his invention would change society for the worse. The most significant of these was the growth of slavery. While it was true that the cotton gin reduced the labor of removing seeds, it did not reduce the need for slaves to grow and pick the cotton. In fact, the opposite occurred. Cotton growing became so profitable for the planters that it greatly increased their demand for both land and slave labor. In 1790 there were six slave states; in 1860 there were 15. From 1790 until Congress banned the importation of slaves from Africa in 1808, Southerners imported 80,000 Africans. By 1860 approximately one in three Southerners was a slave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_gin

Bernake is discussed in this interesting essay:

http://tinyurl.com/3xnv8fp

Bernake a Rothschild cousin?

The name is Bernanke (rhymes with “hanky-panky,” not “big snake”).

Jobless recover, consumer based economy, federal reserve powers, 0% lending to favored banks (used for guaranteed 3% return), job creation by govt, cap & trade, climate disruption, intentional targeted inflation, domestic energy disfavored, brazil gets offshore oil exploration money, focus on green jobs that backfires like in spain, aid to our enemies, crapshoots, …etc

are we nuts?

+1 Tango…Nice Summary…Makes a good argument for a reset…Starts at the top…Bloomberg would not put up with this crap…Neither would Ellison…

Because foreclosure is such a serious action, each foreclosure can be challenged in court in case there’s a mistake.

There were so many foreclosures that there are bound to many many mistaken ones. So banks are stopping ALL foreclosures to do the reviews and find the mistakes first. Why do a quick foreclosure, only to pay gazillions in court fees when the FB challenges? Cheaper to let the FB squat while the bank does a proper review.

This is why the government requires that review in the first place: to fix a mistake before it gets to court. Banks are finding out that the government regulation is actually good idea, legally AND financially!

“I understand what is wrong with the paperwork, but it’s not as if they can’t fix that.”

If the paperwork is gone or there never was any paperwork, how do they fix that?

Why, by having the loans redone and asking the buyers to provide substantial documentation that they really can afford the POS they are buying, of course.

They should be required to write down principle on current mortgages as punishment. Oh and send free-and-clear home owners and renters a check. Those being foreclosed on should get a swift boot out of the house.

Everyone knows the Pyramid of Cheops was financed by extraterrestrials .

The government confiscated resources from the productive economy to build a centrally planned, one-size-fits-all project.

The government confiscated

The corporatocracy brainwashed.

No more so than their pink cousins.

I don’t buy this taxation is theft theme. The only ones that can possibly make such a claim are people who advocate absolutely no government at any level.

If there is any role for government, then taxation is a necessity. The proper discussion is over what government should be doing and not doing.

If something is taken from you without permission or is taken under threat of force then a theft has occurred.

It is a fact that government steal. It is also a fact that as long as there are governments then they will continue to steal.

Is the mass theft and mass murder at the hands of governments justified by some benefit of government?

Which benefit?

‘The only ones that can possibly make such a claim are people who advocate absolutely no government at any level. If there is any role for government, then taxation is a necessity.’

Please see:

‘During the confrontation with France in the late 1790’s, the Federal Government imposed the first direct taxes on the owners of houses, land, slaves, and estates. These taxes are called direct taxes because they are a recurring tax paid directly by the taxpayer to the government based on the value of the item that is the basis for the tax. The issue of direct taxes as opposed to indirect taxes played a crucial role in the evolution of Federal tax policy in the following years. When Thomas Jefferson was elected President in 1802, direct taxes were abolished and for the next 10 years there were no internal revenue taxes other than excises.’

‘To raise money for the War of 1812, Congress imposed additional excise taxes, raised certain customs duties, and raised money by issuing Treasury notes. In 1817 Congress repealed these taxes, and for the next 44 years the Federal Government collected no internal revenue. Instead, the Government received most of its revenue from high customs duties and through the sale of public land.’

‘When the Civil War erupted, the Congress passed the Revenue Act of 1861, which restored earlier excises taxes and imposed a tax on personal incomes.’

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/taxes/ustax.shtml

Also:

http://www.taxanalysts.com/museum/1816-1860.htm

…And excise taxes aren’t coerced from payees by the same threat of forceful seizure that say, income taxes are? There is considerable disagreement as to exactly what we wish the government to do. IMHO the problem is that rather than confront those differences, we’ve paper over them by taxing less and doing more.

“If there is any role for government, then taxation is a necessity. The proper discussion is over what government should be doing and not doing.”

And if you can justify one penny in taxation, you essentially justify all taxation. Dangerous situation that must inevitably lead to only one conclusion.

‘coerced from payees by the same threat of forceful seizure’

I prefer taxing imports. Let’s call it the “Worlds Economic Engine Tax.” If they don’t want to pay, they can sell their stuff somewhere else.

And don’t brush by the ’selling public lands’ part. The feds own a lot of land that they either don’t manage well or let corporations use for next to nothing. Heck, we might even get affordable housing out of that deal.

+1 on both points Ben…

Wow, got some responses.

Firstly on direct versus indirect tax. Aren’t all taxes ultimately paid by productive society? Is it preferable to have taxes clearly laid out, or preferable to have them burried in prices of goods? Custom duties, for instance, increase the price of imports, and allow domestic producers to charge more. Either way, it’s still a tax ultimately paid by the public.

Selling public lands. Obviously not a long term solution. Renting them? Well, isn’t rent paid to the government for using land called property taxes? If paid by a corporation, then that’s less money for wages and dividends. Once again, taxes always come out of productive society.

“And if you can justify one penny in taxation, you essentially justify all taxation.”

Nope. That’s why the debate is over what government should do and what it shouldn’t. If the public decides that government shouldn’t run public schools, then there is no justification to tax for it.

“I prefer taxing imports. Let’s call it the “Worlds Economic Engine Tax.” If they don’t want to pay, they can sell their stuff somewhere else.”

mikey approved…let’s sell that !!

Heck, we might even get affordable housing out of that deal.

Oh, we did! we did! It’s was called the “do-it-youreslf Act of 1862 (from a Lincoln Log Republican no less!):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_Act

One more thought. There will always be government. Take away the current system of taxation, government, and government force, you leave a void. That void will be filled, but odds are the government(s) will be dictatorships. They will use force too, but with the rule of law being the dictator’s whim.

Taxes are inevitable (didn’t someone famous say that?). All that’s left is chosing your poison.

Sorry, but government and taxes are NOT inevitable, even though there are always people who just want to shut down the debate by saying that’s how it is, get used to it. In reality, there are lots of current and historical examples of societies with little or no government that are peaceful and prosperous. The frontier areas of the US in the 1800s are one example.

Little government is still government, so is it little or no? And even little governments require revenue.

Can you give examples of these societies besides sparsley populated frontier areas? Do/did such societies have populations anywhere approaching what we see today in the western world?

Did I miss the explanation as to how the military (on a Fed/Nat’l level) and the police (on a S&L level), for example, would be financed without taxes? And public institutions such as courts?

” Perhaps if we did make payment of taxes voluntary, that would help get government down to the size it really should be.”

The freeloader effect would quickly end voluntary taxation or government.

No, the freeloader effect is far WORSE under a system of coercive taxation than under a voluntary one. People who hate driving are taxed to pay for roads, people with no kids are taxed to pay for schools, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

With a voluntary system the freeloader effect can be kept under control with social pressure, or again just by keeping government small.

Some people would tell themselves they are special, or have special circumstances, and thus don’t need to pay taxes. More would follow. In short order no one would pay anything. If you want zero government, make taxation voluntary.

Small government, which I agree with, would only make it easier for people to justify not paying (they don’t need much, so they don’t need anything from me.)

Good point. Those who say taxes are completely useless have no understanding of modern society. Roads are best created by the Federal government, and they are a benefit to the majority of taxpayers. I teach kids from Mexico who are extremely ignorant. If you think there is no value from American-style education, you must not get out much.

Where not many of Germany’s road laid down by the Roman Empire?

Not too many public services in Somalia. You guys need to move there, and let us know how that works out for you.

“Theft” is the illegal taking of someone else’s property. When the government does it, it isn’t theft. When you try it, it is theft. “Murder” is the illegal taking of another person’s life. When the government does it, it isn’t murder. When you try it, it is.

Private property only exists because of government, therefore theft can only exist because of government. Otherwise, everything belongs to whomever is strongest at the moment.

The old “if the government was forced to live with the US Constitution and only take 1/3 of my pay instead of 1/2 my pay in total taxes and live within it means we would somehow turn into Somalia and not one new road would ever get built and we would all be breathing smog equal to coal mine” argument…

So now you are conceeding that 1/3 of your pay is a reasonable level of taxation? Oh, why didn’t you say so. Lets hear about some specific programs that you would cut to balance the budget with that level of revenue.

we would all be breathing smog equal to coal mine” argument…

LOL, Funny.

But to be fair, look who that argument was used against. I think against posters that were all or nothing in the other direction.

This “any taxation is theft” argument is being made over a government-funded invention called the Internet.

Nobody wants to pay for government until THEY need the government. An “Independent Contractor” government.

The problem is, that kind of government may or may not be there when you really need it. Especially if/when a bunch of people start demanding stuff at the same time. Then you find yourself in a bidding war.

This subject is getting tiresome. 10% of the lunatics want government to do everything for them. Another 10% are the “any taxation is stealing” crowd. Neither of these groups is going to be able to convince the 80% of people that thinks government is an inefficient, costly, but necessary “evil”.

Spouting off about “all government/taxation is evil” is why the Libertarians cannot gain any traction with the majority of the voters.

“Spouting off about “all government/taxation is evil” is why the Libertarians cannot gain any traction with the majority of the voters.”

Which is why Libertarians have to run as Republicans to get elected. In Florida, Libertarians are waging a very successful and insidious campaign to take over the Republican Party at the local level. Party-line voting Republicans are getting fooled into putting Libertarians in power. Fortunately, they rarely get reelected. Unfortunately, they do a lot of damage in the short term.

f the government or the people changed the constitution so that a certain population could be made slaves, that’s ‘obviously authorized’?

I don’t think it was circular because:

I believe that your example would be found unconstitutional.

‘changed the constitution …would be found unconstitutional’

Huh? I think the point is, all sorts of stuff can be within ‘the law or constitutionally valid’, but that doesn’t make it unchallengable.

‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.” –Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315′

http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0100.htm

Huh? I think the point is, all sorts of stuff can be within ‘the law or constitutionally valid’, but that doesn’t make it unchallengable.

True. And if it is challengeable it should be challenged. The fact that US income tax has been law since 1913 and not overturned leads me to suspect it would be difficult to challenge and/or Americans don’t want to challenge it too much because we have chosen to structure our society thus.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal;

This line from the Declaration of Independence is a complicated and classic example of how the Declaration and the Constitution “do” or at least “have” opened themselves to evolution or to what some believe make them kind of “living” documents.

“that all men are created equal” did not include the slaves at the time written but does now. So, sometimes, things do legally change even within the context of our founding documents.

I agree and slavery is a good example. Even though many of these guys owned slaves, the system they set in motion almost certainly contained within it the inevitability of slavery being abolished.

That “we the people” seems to me to be biologically, categorically inclusive to a most particular type of albino mammal.

“ We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the “TruePatriot™ / TruePurity™ / TrueAmericans™” commonly know as Republicans.”

—United States Constitution, GOP Preamble 2010

I see. So if 51% of the population thinks it is ok to throw Jews into camps and ovens - the US Constitution is A-OK with that.

No, obviously you don’t “see”. That would be found unconstitutional.

We don’t have a direct democracy so the 51% is a canard.

But, yes, if you could get the Constitution amended to the extent that it was not Unconstitutional to throw a particular subpopulation into camps and executed based on their religion or ethnic heritage and then you could get the laws passed to do it, it could happen. The camps part happened less than 70 years ago to Japanese Americans near the west coast.

If things ever turned that way, I’d expect it to take the form of a number of states leaving the Union. If that happened again, I say let them go. If it were actually to take the form of Constitutional and other legal changes for the whole country, it would take so long that most of the educated people would be gone. I sure would.

2banana, you’re being inflammatory.

Passing laws is not Unconstitutional. But passing Unconstitutional laws IS Unconstitutional. The inflammatory example you use is clearly in violation of several of the Amendments to the Constitution: First, Fourth, Eighth, and probably a dozen others. And that law would be thrown out in about 4 minutes.

…disclose in huge 14 point type on the bottle that the drug inside it has not been proven to be more effective than the generic…

That reminds me of a funny thing that I have no firsthand knowledge of whatsoever.

Intellectual Property Watch 17 June 2010
Snag In Early End To Viagra Patent In Brazil

http://www.ip-watch.org/weblog/2010/06/17/snag-in-early-end-to-viagra-patent-in-brazil/

The date 20 June will mark the authorised end of Viagra’s patent in Brazil, five laboratories have requested registration for drugs that are generic versions of Viagra

Meanwhile, given the impending loss of market share, Pfizer has decided to lower by 50 percent the price of Viagra in Brazil. It was reported that each tablet from Pfizer, which cost on average US$17.60, will now sell for US$8.80. In addition, the company decided to launch boxes with only one tablet, as a strategy to expand the market.

Geez Rio, you’ve shattered my imagined idea about Brazil & Sweden, I oddly thought that in those x2 places that the need for Viagra would be in exceedingly low demand.

Rockville? You should have hopped up the Pike to China Bistro just north of the town center. Best dumplings ever, and at $8 for an order of 12 (I can get two meals with one order if I take them home and add a salad) pretty darn cheap.

LOL, there was no time, Polly! We would fly in the night before the meeting, eat a quick bite in the hotel, then sequester ourselves to prepare for the next morning’s meeting (the three hour time difference was painful). We would meet until late afternoon, wrap things up, and fly out. Very efficient, but absolutely no time for sightseeing or restaurant hopping. It was not fun. Purely public service. But a good experience. The only thing I do now is recommend individuals to the FDA to serve on the panel. And I’m proud at how many in my field are willing to sacrifice their time to participate.

One more reason to love Costco, no WIC or foodstamps.

It’s not government’s invention, it’s some guy or gal’s invention. Government basically allocated the resources for that to happen. Let’s not assume for a moment that something better or cost effective would not have been produced if the government wasn’t involved.

hear here!

Let’s not assume for a moment that something better or cost effective would not have been produced if the government wasn’t involved.

If it weren’t for government involvement, there are quite a few things that would not have been produced at all. Like, Saran Wrap and Tang!

Do you guys actually believe all useful things could either 1) get started to the point that their commercial use could be recognized without any money or 2) private funds could get allocated to ideas for which no profitable commercial use could be recognized?

‘Cause I have to tell you. I don’t think that the private equity system in our country is as effiicient as all that. It just isn’t. And the people who invented the internet would have been out doing something else if they had not been government employees.

It’s not even efficiency, Polly. Private equity just can’t take a risk, even more so now after the dot-com debacle. How many of our drugs are invented by a private pharmaceutical company? I mean from scratch, and not cribbed off a proof-of-concept bought at the local state-funded university? How many nuke plants did private equity build without government subsidies or loan guarantees? (zero) How many businesses would have been able to operate if electricity prices weren’t regulated? (ask California) Private equity, except for a few humanitarians like the Google guys, turned up their noses at solar and wind. Even tax credits weren’t enough for them; oh no, private solar and wind wanted grants IN CASH (luckily Obama gave it to them).

About the only time private equity really did work was when the somebody with a day job invested his own sweat equity on tinkering in the garage. And I don’t recall the Wright brothers pulling their sweat equity when they didn’t make 9% profit within the first three quarters.

Seems to me that the only entities who make things happen from scratch are philanthropy, government, or passionate hobbyists who work for free. Private equity only swoops in to claim the spoils.

infrastructure must be built and maintained, but there are much better investments to make.

ARE YOU F*C$KI@G HIGH?????

ARE YOU F*C$KI@G HIGH?????

no, you’re economically illiterate.

infrastructure must be built and maintained, but there are much better investments to make.

Like Goldman, B of A, and Citi I’m sure.

Like Goldman, B of A, and Citi I’m sure.

no way.

‘Course it wasn’t the government laying all that dark fiber in the 90s. Or building dark condo towers in the 00s, although they’ve certiainly tried to bail out those who funded them.

“infrastructure must be built and maintained, but there are much better investments to make.”

You have a point. It’s called education. You should try it sometime.

Who is housewives of Atlanta?

I don’t know what circles you run in, but the sorority girls I know would rather have a root canal 7 days a week that become a real estate agent. Oh that’s right y’all went to those elite public schools since it is a waste of money to go to private schools. Well then that makes sense. I take it the caliber of the sorority girl at Never Heard of It U can’t be too high.

but the sorority girls I know would rather have a root canal 7 days a week that become a real estate agent ??

Which probably reflects on the type of women you are attracted to…

Our closest of friends have a daughter and a son…She is 29…Graduate of Santa Clara University one of the highly respected Universities on the West Coast…She is a realtor…

Her brother, 26, is also a graduate of Santa Clara University…He then did his MBA at Loyola Marymont in southern Ca…He is along his sister, also a realtor…

Your a idiot E/D….

Right. Those crap public universities like UCLA and William and Mary.

Where, incidentally, people would rather major in kinesiology than go, um, Greek.

Eddietard’s envy is blatantly obvious.

So if I understand this correctly, he did 0 hours of work and got paid $0. And the problem is what exactly?

Your cognitive capacity?

Ryo,

The guy worked 0 hours. He got paid for 0 hours. Even a child can understand this. Sadly you can’t.

Eddie, what would you do if you showed up for work at 11 pm and they told you to go home? Don’t you think that employers owe their workers at least a phone call? And he did put in the time to get up, get ready, drive his car, use the gas, and drive home. FedEx workers (I can’t call them employees, because FedEx got an exception to avoid having to pay any benefits) have no rights.

I don’t know why I’m even bothering to answer you, because you are completely lacking in compassion for your fellow man. You could care less about workers who toil for peanuts, hoping for a 50 cent raise someday, and have no choice in the matter.

I can understand how you can complain about welfare queens or Social Security disability cheats, but it’s not right for you to disrespect people who work harder than you ever have for almost nothing.

Again, I don’t know why I bother. You are irredeemable.

Again, I don’t know why I bother.

You bother because you care and people read this. Thank you.

You are irredeemable.

I don’t know. What Eddie says is so outlandish (There’s a reason he’s arguably one of the least respected, most mocked poster on this board) that I’m not sure he really believes all of it.

There might be a motivation for this that we will never know such as monetary or personal satisfaction to just rile people up.

However I’m sure he has deep doubts to many of the more hateful, conscious-less and ignorant things he says.

The most efficient labor model is no full time employees and definitely no unions. Everyone is a contractor free to work for whomever they want whenever they want at whatever wage they want. On the other side an employer is free to hire anyone at any time and fire anyone at any time.

The most efficient labor model is no full time employees and definitely no unions. Everyone is a contractor free to work for whomever they want whenever they want at whatever wage they want. On the other side an employer is free to hire anyone at any time and fire anyone at any time.

Thank you Eddie. You just unknowingly illustrated why:

1. “The most efficient labor model” is not the best for society as a whole.

2. “The most efficient labor model” disrupts the lives and well being of workers and their families.

3. “The most efficient labor model” benefits only a small few who have money and power.

4. “The most efficient labor model” should not be sought by or praised as good by democratic, egalitarian, free societies.

5. “The most efficient labor model” is sought for and highly praised by economic sociopaths.

Muh wife and sister jorjiagurl is uh contracter too. a reeltor!

I’m speechless and weak with laughter. Identify yourself, Georgiaboy! Professor? Pressboard?

As far as I know, notaries don’t read anything other than the documents that confirm the identity of the people signing in her presence. I’ve signed all sorts of things in front of notaries and my photo id (plus the similar ids of all other signers) was all that the notary ever read.

Notarized signatures are a system set up by state law to have some trusted people who can confirm who signed stuff with more integrity than just the scrawled signature of a witness. You may change your contract to accept the use of signatures that are not notarized even if the general commercial practice is to use them. The only time you can’t get out of it is if state law requires it for certain documents that the state uses as a basis for taking action and you want that action to be taken.

Most Americans will be watching the SuperBowel next year played on land stolen from law abiding citizens.

Yeah, I know that 15 Gs isn’t much money to some on this blog (cough…….Eddie…….cough), but to me, it’s a significant chunk of change.

X-GS,

Sounds more like a bank ‘draft’. I just got one too and the bank ( main br. no less ) told me that 4k would be available on ‘this’ date and then the full amount on ‘this’ date etc.

I told the mgr. that there’s a 1-800 # on the front of the draft to verify funds BUT…

When I had my own little contracting company, it took 21 days for the check from my employer to make it to my personal account due to all of the bank imposed holds.

Bank of America now charges 15 dollars if I deposit a check and it bounces there solution? be careful of who you take checks from nice

yes I read the fine print from these jokers now

We’re all migrant laborers now.

This “on call” situation makes the decider - the dispatcher - the guy who decides who gets called and who doesn’t get called VERY popular guy.

I you need your self esteemed built up, if you need people to tell you what a wonderful guy you are, then become one of these dispatchers.

Movie industry has worked this way for years.

Yes, Palmetto, we are. It’s an employers’ market.

SteveJ — I guess only the most successful moviemakers and professional athletes can succeed as their own small businesses.

The less skilled or less beautiful or less visible have to join a company or a union. The TV writers’ union occasionally goes on strike. And what about, say, the practice squads and lesser coaches for the Indy Colts? They had to join a company because they don’t attract “clients” like Peyton Manning could.

“Movie industry has worked this way for years.”

True, but when you get a gig it pays big $$$$. I knew a guy (Engineer) in SoCal. His wife was was some kind of camera operator. She made as much as 3X his salary. I suppose this is why so many shows are now filmed in Canada.

THat smells like socialism!! AMERIKER LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!!!

Obviously Rio left. I should look into getting an EU passport via my wife.

Its not a question of fiat currency losing ALL its value, just a big junk of it.

Mexico went through hyperinflation in the late 70’s and early 80’s. I was there. There were always goods on the shelves to buy.

But no one held on to cash (pesos). The interest rates the banks paid didn’t come close to covering inflation. If you were lucky enough to have spare cash you converted it into other assets. At the time gold was the prefered choice as the currency was arificially pegged to the dollar. Once the peso started floating (sinking) freely then USD was also a choice “safety zone”. Of course both were hard to procure.

Eventually it got so bad that for a while it was illegal to possess foreign currency in Mexico. Arriving tourists were informed that it was a felony and were forced to convert whatever they arrived with into pesos, with the promise that whatever they had left when they returned home would be converted back. Mexican issued credit cards could not be used outside of Mexico and had the words “Valid only in Mexico” stamped on them (Even AMEX cards)

Anyway my friends, a possible glimpse into what the future might have in store for us in the “we only consume” USA.

Once we come full cirle with Tulipmania then it will all make sense.

But if our fiat money lost all its value then our fiat-based economy would totally collapse and all the gold you could carry would do you no good because there would be nothing available anywhere for you to buy.

Just look at Zimbabwe. The people who owned Gold are living much larger than the people who owned cash. In a total collapse, food, shelter and labor will be more important than gold. But then again, if you are a producer with surplus, who would you rather deal with? The person with a bag of papers or the person with shiny metals?

I bet Mugabe’s soldiers stole everyones gold.

That’s already the case.

The real question what are those who do have money, lots of money, doing?

Cheers!

combo,

I saw the “ultimate ZZ Top tribute band” do that earlier this summer. They really knew how to have a good time!

Yeah I own Gold. Plenty, probably a third. But that doesn’t mean I ‘like’ it.

I have friends in Johnson County KS, formerly independents or democrats, who registered as republicans when they moved there because they felt that they had to support the moderates as best they can.

Last time I was there I wandered out a little south of Overland Park and Lenexa and was so horrified by the tacky suburban sprawl that I had to run back to the Plaza.

There used to be an expression “first in Kansas”, as a lot of things used to start there… (good and bad). The space of rural isolation allowed a lot of social experiments, some good some not so.

There used to be an expression “first in Kansas”, as a lot of things used to start there…

Very true, including the Civil War.

For those interested see: “Bleeding Kansas, The Missouri Compromise (and how it was broken by) The Kansas and Nebraska act. and The Lincoln/Douglas Debates discussing the Kansas, Lecompton constitution.”

Book recommendation:
Patriotic Treason: John Brown and the Soul of America
Evan Carton
Free Press

Anger has been a staple of the HBB for the four years I’ve been a lurker and sometime contributor. There’s an abundance of good reasons to be angry, I certainly am about what I see going on. OTOH, a lot of the anger here is just retail-grade socio-political diatribe, underlaid by all sorts of smelly little biases. I’m not immune to that, either.

Sounds a lot like the tea party to me. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Its not about Idea’s or Ability its what the neocon’s always sell….Anger…

1st,… Fear
2nd,… Anger
3rd ,…“TruePatriot™ / TruePurity™ / TrueAmericans™”

Read it again Nutterbutter. No where did I state the tea party freaks are valid. But I agree they are thugs of the worst variety.

Nutterbutter…LOL

Iftheshoefits, Wells Fargo knows it’s hard to change banks, and they COUNT on that inconvenience to d*ck you over, thinking you’d rather bend over and take it than to change your account. They’re targeting you because you’re makng deposits and they want to get their paws on your cash. Cash is king, remember?

It might not be so bad if you change accounts gradually. If you really do think of switching, go to moveyourmoney DOT net . There’s a place to plug in your zip code and they list the names and addresses of all the B or higher level local banks near you.

I switched, and now i pay $5 a month for checking, but it’s well worth being left alone.

I bank at Chase, but do everything through the ATM. The only time I see a teller is when I need a cashier’s check, to buy my wife a new (used) car.

I’ll start worrying when the cops start pulling random people out of their cars, and shooting them in the head.

In fact, one could make the case that this country would have a lot fewer problems, if the cops busted a few more indescriminate caps. Preferably around 200 West, and 270 Park Avenue.

Yeah, but doctors are long on telling you what to do, and real short of ideas on how you can get there.

Quite right. Its usually a speech about “eat less” / “exercise more”

I always thought that I would wait to age 70 to collect SS. Since I got this cancer thing my thinking has changed, as my life expectancy has diminished by 10 years or so. I’m inclined to start collecting at the earliest age possible. I should look into it, because after I die my husband will likely be around for many years (long-lived genes in his family, plus he takes good care of himself.) In any event, SS will be a small fraction of our retirement income, thank goodness.

Problem solved. But then there would be equality ??

I have no heartburn with changing some of the structure WT…Making it solvent and recognizing the money in/money out problem and solving it in other ways other than increasing the costs to payor’s makes complete sense…

They won’t get rid of it, they’ll “reform” it so that payouts are smaller (they’ve already frozen current payouts) and paid later (probably with means testing), plus they’ll probably raise the payroll tax. That way, voila! there will once again be a surplus to spend on other things, like wars.

Kill Social Security and you kill the payroll tax. Ain’t gonna happen.

Neocon = 2banana

Uh, I meant about hating broadcast TV…my mistake.

That concept of “non-recourse mortgage” is an oversimplification of a complex legal issue. ALL mortgages are intrinsically “recourse”. It’s just that in CA the code of civil procedure bars suing to recover a deficiency subsequent to a non-judicial foreclosure (using the power of sale in the mortgage). In many circumstances it IS possible to sue for the deficiency subsequent to a judicial foreclosure (i.e. suing on the note). I’ve previously posted links to a flowchart showing the analysis you need to go through to determine whether a suit for a deficiency judgment may proceed.

Saying CA is a “non-recourse” state is like saying you can’t get AIDS from a virgin.

This Martin guy is the sort of “deep pockets” defendant who should worry about this. We would have to know more facts to determine his potential liability.

Colorado:

Construction accounts for about $0.5 trillion of GDP.

Compare that to business services at $2T
Retail trade $0.9T
Transportation and Utilities $0.8T
Wholesale Trade $0.7T
Govt spending $1.2T
Mining $0.3T

Construction just isn’t that big of a deal for the economy relatively speaking. Which was my point originally. A 13T economy and construction makes up less than 5% of it.

My favorite HBB career was health care lobbyist. Let’s see I was also a car salesman, a lawyer, an investment banker, a realtor (of course), a mortgage broker and a bunch of others I can’t recall right now.

Can I be an NFL QB just for a few days? But only for a good team. Don’t send me to the Lions or god forbid, the Cowboys.

I’ll go to the Cowboys if I can date Jessica Simpson ! hubahuba