The Housing Bubble

I bet that camera salesman was laid off from Circuit City. That’s about the time frame…

I definetly assumd he’d been laid off from somewhere else, maybe ritz camera.

Especially since they’re getting $0 per square foot currently.

(What’s with Halloween these days? Why in the Sam Hill has it gotten so popular?)

I’m with you, Slim. I never dreamed that when I hit 50 so many people were going to whine to me why I wasn’t dressing up for it. Ridiculous..

Burger King and Roundtable Pizza closed this month. FOr lease on both.

Actaully, once two go under, it seems like the last one might be able to make a go of it - depending on their debt load/other costs and what rent they can command, of course.

As soon as one goes under, I think the new owners may have a lower cost basis and be able to charge rents low enough to drive the other two into bankruptcy.

That makes sense. Its good to be the first to fail. Or rather the successor to the one who was first to fail.

So the next time someone says you don’t have courage to start your own business and what a great land of opportunity this is, tell them to eff off.

And you’ll have Arizona Slim backing you up on the eff off part. Starting and growing a business isn’t easy, even in boom times.

Megabank, Inc profit sharing plan:

1) Almost all profits will go into compensation and bonuses.

2) Let the shareholders eat cake.

3) Losses asset losses get eaten by the Fed’s SIV, never again to see the light of day.

It’s going to have to go to the Highest Court in the Land . I ask myself why did the Lenders think they could pass up the normal
transfer process . Did a bunch of hot shot Wall Street lawyers
give the go on it or what ? How could a big system of transfer of loans be set up like that without regard to conformity to the law .
Do these clowns just think that they are so above the law that they can do anything they want ,or was it just error ?The industry didn’t seem to think they had a obligation to actually underwrite loans either .

Depending on how a High Court would rule on this will
determine a hell of a lot of liability issues . I really can’t believe that the rulings would result in homeowners getting free houses
now . This is just mind-blowing in that in spite of all these bail outs to the Banking trade industry that the behavior of the Industry just keeps coming back to the surface to expose the
behavior of the Industry that was greedy and incompetent and fraudulent .

We are all bankers now.

Really

Where is my 7-8 figure pay check??

I really can’t believe that the rulings would result in homeowners getting free houses now.

Certainly not free houses, but really cheap houses. Matter of fact, this recently happened in mine own family.

My real estate agent cousin had a house that the bank wanted to foreclose on. “Go ahead!” my cousin said. He was of the mind that the bank could have that house back.

But the bank didn’t want it back.

So, they offered to sell it back to my cuz for $10,000. Mind you, this is in Minneapolis, MN, where houses sell for more than $10k.

My aunt, who told me this story, proclaimed that the house was worth $150k. I didn’t have the heart to tell her that the place was only worth whatever someone was willing to pay for it.

But if millions and millions of people want that deal that your
cuz got than it’s a different ballgame .

“It’s going to have to go to the Highest Court in the Land.”

It will go to the highest court in the state (or, in this case, commonwealth). Even if you have a way for this to get into the federal court system, they would be applying MA law. Real estate transfer laws are under state control. And, as I have mentioned before, the rules on real estate transfers are quirky. They have their origins in very, very old rules (think Doomsday Book old) and are different than rules that apply to personal property. Specific performance can be demanded. Things that are not in writing may not be enforceable at all. Different.

Polly ,didn’t they use that loan transfer system in all States? Would it be based on the State that the loan transfer was passed to the
MBS ,or the State where the loan was originated ? I don’t know , seems to me that the issue is so big that it will end up in the
Highest Court in the USA .

I think the Highest Court ,or High State Courts will view it as error anyway and give the Banks ability to correct .

The banks can’t correct if the trust that issued the bonds and is supposed to own the loan has a clause in its organizing documents that says it is not allowed to accept loans that are not current. My understanding is that most or all had those clauses. If the trust never got the loan, and can’t accept it now, then it can’t transfer that loan to the correct tranche of bond holders when the loan goes bad. If the bond holders can’t have the ownership of that loan tranferred to them, then the servicer acting on behalf of those bond holders can’t forclose - the people they are acting for don’t own it. The entity that still owns it is the originator, or, possibly, someone a little further along the ownership chain that actually got ownership before the package of loans got dumped onto MERs.

The one who owns it is the only one who can foreclose. And if the loan gets back to them, there is a good chance that they will have to reimburse the entity in the chain that should have gotten ownership (paid for it) but didn’t get it all the money that was paid. Or not, if the documents specifically contemplated this, but I don’t think they did.

We really need a consult with Englishman in New Jersey.

Polly ,I wonder if this isn’t some kind of weird ass Karma putting the real liability back on the originating lenders ,but then won’t they try to transfer it back to the taxpayer ….you know TBTF.

I don’t think the current house of representative would approve a new bailout. They might want to, but I just don’t think they can. The only bailout option left is the Fed and Ron Paul would have a field day. I’m not saying this is a slam dunk, but this isn’t the same situation as a few years ago. And a lot of the originators went bankrupt. Might be nice for their creditors to be able to get a few extra bucks out of the hole.

Of course, my fantasy is that there was one good transfer in the line of ownership from the originator to the investment bank which then failed to transfer it to the trust. I know it is unlikely. I used to work for law firms that did this sort of work for investment banks and they should have known better than to let their clients get caught in something like this. Then again, while our work was generally of very high quality, I personally found a few real clunkers out there. No telling what might have happened. Still unlikely, but a person has to have dreams…..

I hope you’re right, Polly.

Time to get real.

Polly isn’t joking about odd things in land transfers….

There’s this thing called “livery of seisin” which dates back to the middle ages. The grantor and grantee would meet on the acreage. The grantor would dig up a clod of sod and physically hand it to the grantee: literally giving them the “land”. No transfer was recognized without the locals witnessing this handing over the chunk of sod.

It’s sort of like the wedding ceremony where the bride’s father places her hand on that of the groom, literally handing her over.

Polly …my fantasy is that it will be Goldmans (the Investment Firm currently posing as a Bank …)

When somebody pays you for work that you have done, that work presumably represents value that has been added to the economy. When somebody lends you money at interest, they expect to be repaid with interest. They spend just the same, and can be used for consumption, or in the purchase of a productive asset, or invested. But when you borrow to fund consumption, your asset sheet diminishes, because you are expected to pay that money back.

All good posts!

My industry is tech. That includes software, EE, systems, ME, the stuff with a background in mathematics. Similar for the health care professionals.

And a very respectable industry. I’m in similar.

But our industries are not the whole of business and jobs in this country and the perks and pay structure we have are not available to others.

Just as a business owner has a different experience than their employee.

Minimum wage declined 9.3% and production workers wages increased 4.3% (adjusted for inflation) during the 1990-2005 period while corporate profits doubled and CEO pay almost tripled.

I remember getting around 11.5% in ‘81 or thereabouts.

Had I only known then what I know now…

I’m with both of you. ‘Course they might just underfund warren so that her agency is just her, a couple of secretaries and an office across the street from the old EOB. Kind of like the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight, the agency that was supposed to regulate Fannie and Freddie.

Yeah. The other day, I was listening to NPR, and they were pretending to discuss whether or not it’s constitutional for the gubbmint to force people to purchase health insurance. Obviously it’s not, might as well force people to purchase sneakers, what’s the diff?

Inywayz, all these callers kept being let on, saying how it makes them mad that all these “irresponsible” people are allowed to go without health insurance. Well, I’d like to know where all these callers are getting their insurance, because I’m certain they’re not paying for it themselves. It’s either coming from their employer, so they don’t see the charge, or it’s coming from the government.

I recently shopped around for health insurance and discovered that the premium for myself (a ridiculously healthy woman in her 30s) would be upwards of $700/month. Now come on, I’m “irresponsible” for not shelling out this kind of cash? GMAB. It would be irresponsible of me to pay that because it would make me broke. We as a people would be far more responsible to put the decision-making power back in the hands of the consumer.

We need to get rid of all those laws that essentially force employers and governments to provide “free” health insurance. If people had to pay it themselves, then the price would come down. A lot.

Big V ,thats just it ,the Health Care system is a insurance system
that has nothing to do with capitalism . Pure capitalism in Health Care would crash the prices immediately . I don’t think it will ever happen ,but it is scary thinking about a government run system .but it has the potential of being better than what we are offered
today under the Private Insurance system with a Government system mixed up in it (Medicare ,etc ).The Private Insurance Companies want the government to cover all the high risk anyway
and they just want to take the gravy ,so that’s a corrupted system
with all the price fixing that has nothing to do with capitalism .

More and more people are gping to do what you did and just reject the prices of the insurance and so many of those policies
that they are offering with high deductible are just junk policies .

Big V,

Firstly, great post. Many questions we’ve all asked ourselves. I wish I could’ve heard the indignant callers myself!

Secondly, good for you stayin’ healthy. We all need to make better choices there too. Since I spent much of ‘09 in an alcoholic fog.., well let’s just say, if the shoe fits?

I’m up to running 2-whole-miles without puking or passing out! But as, many on the Left have rightly pointed out, you can ‘run’ ( but you can’t hide! ) Sooner or later we’ll all need a little help. ‘Then’ what?

I’ve never had to enroll in a junk/catastrophic policy so I’m not sure how well they do or don’t cover. Anyone had any direct exp. there?

The problem is Health Care is a unique product . Let say a infectious disease breaks out and under pure capitalism some people choose to get treated and some don’t and it ends up infecting the population . Why do they put car accidents under a insurance system (?) because some jerk on the road can run into you and wipe you out and you wouldn’t be able to pay for the damage if you couldn’t sue them if they had no money .

There are merits in Insurance systems and they are suppose to spread out the risk but not if they are price gouging monopolies .

Health Care isn’t like steak where you can choose to not eat it if
the price goes up and change to hamburger because sometimes if you don’t get treatment your dead . Health care is one of those touchy areas where it’s somewhat no choice . Why did they put education under a public plan for the masses ? The Health Care of a Nation affects everybody.

For years employers provided the benefits and I’m sure part of the reason was they got more productivity out of healthy employees ,but for years the costs were affordable in USA .Now Industry is rejecting the costs ,older people are getting job discrimination because they are considered people who will raise the price for the employers . Health care Pension Benefits are unsustainable and those benefits were contracted before
the prices skyrocketed .Health Insurance also dropped a lot of
programs that they knew they would be under mandate to
provide that insurance so they dropped it altogether .

Of course people are going to have to take more responsibility
for their own health because it makes sense to do so .

I don’t know what is going to happen but a National Health care
system seems to be half the cost in Countries that have moved to Government run health care .I like the way Germany does it myself because they give the option to get greater coverage if
you want to pay extra .

Big V …..here you are a healthy person and they want you to pay
700 a month for a good policy . When I was your age I paid a very small amount for a good policy . Lets face it the biggest costs to the health care system go to older people who begin to use the system after they pay in for years when they were healthy or their employers did .So, the government kicks in anyway with Medicare
because Private Insurance Companies refused to insure older people and that’s why they started Medicare to begin with .

I just want to know who pocketed all the money from the healthy people who paid in for all those years and all the profits that were made on that money .

So here’s my thing about health care. It is really no different than the steak. You have to eat. You may choose to buy a steak at the Elephant House, or at Morton’s, or at Ruth’s Chris, or you may choose to grill one at home, or you may choose hamburger, but you can’t choose to simply not eat.

Same with health care. You have an abundance of doctors and hospitals from which to choose. If you didn’t, then there would be enough space in the field to attract more doctors and hospitals.

That’s the way it used to work, before health “insurance” began to replace health “care”. It worked just fine. People would only go to the doctor when necessary, and they would also try to protect themselves from injuries and illnesses, just to avoid the cost. Doctors would compete with one another on price and quality. They would accept payment plans for particulary expensive stuff. Then there were certain public health initiatives to take care of stuff that affects everyone, such as vaccinations and the like.

But now it’s different. So many have “free” health insurance because laws were passed that force large companies to provide insurance, so those people go to the doctor all the time for silly reasons and nobody competes on cost. Hospitals don’t even bother to compete on quality, since they are all hooked up with some insurance “network” that forces the patients to attend one or two particular locations.

The free market used to work just fine for health care, with public health treated as a separate issue. It works just fine for every other necessity (food, HOUSES, clothes, etc). It’s just that forced insurance isn’t free, that’s all.

Big V,

Spoken w/ wisdom way beyond your years. Thank you.

No, hospitals -don’t- need to compete. In fact ( it looks like they discourage it? ) Wouldn’t want anyone to get the wrong idea here.

As I’ve said before, myself and 4 brothers & sisters grew up w/o HC. It seemed to work o.k. It’s incredible the hoops we’ll jump thru ( like getting/staying at a job we HATE ) just to get that free HC?

Just one more short post . They didn’t set the Insurance system up
right to begin with . They should of been mandated to put a certain percentage of the healthy persons contribution for all those years into a interest bearing account that would cover their costs when they were older and they really started to use the medical system .Instead ,the insurance providers took the money and invested it and made the money and than they expected the
Government to cover the older people once they would really make claims .

I don’t have health insurance, and I never go to the doctor. The last time I was there was in the emergency room for an appendectomy. That cost me a fortune. I am one of those people who does not like to be fussed over, and I have white coat syndrome. I am actually fearful of the doctor. I just pretend I live in the olden days, when there was no such thing as insurance, and not a lot one could do about serious illness.

I figure my best shot against cancer, heart disease, or anything else is to lead a healthy life. I do not drink, smoke, or do drugs. I try to eat healthy and stay active though I need to cut down on desserts since that is a weakness. I don’t own a weight scale, but I just make sure my pants always fit. I still wear the same size I did 15 years ago. I am hardly ever sick, but I did come down with either the flu, or one of the worst colds of my life these past few weeks. I think it was due to my niece coughing in my face without covering her mouth. Thankfully, I seem to be putting it behind me as there is always that thought in the back of my mind “what if this is something that won’t go away?”

I am one of those people who does not like to be fussed over, and I have white coat syndrome. I am actually fearful of the doctor.

Count me as another member of the White Coat Syndrome Club. It’s not the easiest thing to deal with, so you have my sympathy.

One thing that has helped me was to stop going to doctors unless I absolutely have to. My primary care person isn’t a doctor. She’s a physician assistant, and I think she’s fabuloso. And that’s saying a lot.

The Health Care of a Nation affects everybody.

(So, the folks living behind the gilded gated community actually go sometimes THEMSELVES to the local public grocery/hardware/gourmet dog biscuit retail stores and risk everything they’ve worked so hard for?…inconceivable!)

I hear ya HW, with both ears…

Grizzly ..your a perfect example . Anybody at any time could need a appendectomy and unless you get that surgery you would died .
I actually have a friend who was unemployed who got that recently
and ended up in the hospital for a long time because of complications . But anyway, that’s the hold that the Insurance
Monopoly has that you might have a need for a procedure to
prevent death . Even if you start out with a minor infection it can turn into a life
threatening thing unless you get medical care.

But there will reach the point that people will take the risk of not having insurance because they are choosing to eat instead or some other primary expense .Oh I forgot ,the new Health Bill
mandates that you have to buy health insurance .

I had one of those catastrophic policies for about 10 years. It cost me about $350 per month for a family of 4. Between a couple of accidents that my son had and a couple of operations that my husband had, it saved me more than I paid in. The insurance company also paid out more than I paid in, so they lost the gamble with us.

For the hospital bills, I paid about as much as the insurance paid, which was about 1/4 of the original bill. The worst year, I paid about 15K out of pocket (in installments). Drugs were not covered.

This year, I will pay about $780 per month on my employers group plan to cover just my husband and I. I am beginning to wonder if it is worth it, but he has some health problems, so I have committed to it. Each year, the cost increases and the coverage drops. I feel like a gambler when the enrollment period comes along. We dropped my 23 year old son this year. It would have cost us an additional $470 per month to cover him. I figured it would be cheaper to pick up a catastrophic policy for him. He spent less than $500 all of last year on all medical and dental care.

I will consider a catastrophic policy again if the cost of insurance increases much more. The insurance company paid what they said they would pay and didn’t give me any grief. I have read negative things about Mega Life, but they played straight with me.

But of course because healthy people generaly DON’T buy health insurance for themselves, it’s priced under the assumpton that you really ARE unhealthy, just not in a way that they can easily tag as a pre-existing condition.

Well, not NIH.

I have thought about a university job in a low-cost area, but that is becoming fast insecure. Much university work is either soft money (you have to hustle your own business), or you depend on somebody else hustling money, or you are paid to teach by the class, which is ridiculously low. And money is becoming scarcer by the day, as I found out in 2005-2007. Companies do not pay for research because they make quicker surer money on Wall Street, and government money is being cut because the rich’s taxes were too damn high.

When I was unemployed, one of my Plan B’s was to certify in education and teach in a rural high school, but that too is becoming unstable. I chose job security, which, yes, is tied to the DC area.

Much university work is either soft money (you have to hustle your own business), or you depend on somebody else hustling money, or you are paid to teach by the class, which is ridiculously low.

One of my (sob!) former clients used to be at the University of Arizona. He was one of the best grant-getters that the UA has ever had on its payroll.

And along came Vanderbilt. Better offer and all that. You should see the research lab that he’s built there. It’s to die for.

I say (sob!) because, even though he’s tops in his field, he’s one of the nicest people you’d ever want to meet. No big ego to that guy at all.

Alas, due to internal changes at Vandy, we’re not doing business now. But I still stay in touch. After all, internal changes aren’t forever.

Those of you who have had those 2-3 decades of steady employment have no clue how chaotic it is for everyone else.

Because that’s what it takes. At LEAST 2 decades to build upa real cushion against economic catastrophe, like job loss, wage cuts or medical problems.

And don’t think it can’t happen to you no matter how well you play the game. Without that savings backup, you’re effed. Probably for life. The number of people who are able to fully recover from such circumstance is very low.

so true ecofeco …….all this BS that the current conditions provide the opportunities and stability of the past that people
prospered under .

“The number of people who are able to fully recover from such circumstance is very low.”

Vanishingly small. Even those who recover may settle for lower pay and may have lost several years of savings. I think full recovery is a myth.

If you are out of work, I think you can expect at least as many months as you were unemployed to pay for things deferred during the unemployment phase, such as maintenance on cars or houses, dental and medical care. So the non-savings period lasts twice as long as the unemloyment period. And that does not include the effect of dipping into savings to cover the shortfall between unemployment insurance and necessary monthly expenses.

And the effect of being unemployed on the new job’s salary can last for years.

Because that’s what it takes. At LEAST 2 decades to build upa real cushion against economic catastrophe, like job loss, wage cuts or medical problems.

I’m not saying it’s easy, but I think you’re exaggerating a bit here.

I had been in the workforce for ~8 years before I went 9 months without a job. I had a good enough cushion that I didn’t really have to cut back my lifestyle significantly, and could have lasted another year or so if need be.

Yes, it’s different for those with a family and a mortgage. But I also made the decision to have neither of those. Everyone else is capable of making similar decisions.

(At this point, being 11 years out of college, I could probably go 5 years with zero income, and that’s after having 9 months of that time be a long, unintended sabbatical)

And all the sudden my paid for doublewide starts to look smart while riding this out. Yeah, they can jack up the lot rent, but I’m protected from that for at least a couple more years and it’s not a huge amount of money anyway.

I will be depressed if this ends up being my toe-tag home, though :-).

Oxide:

I think the two-income family has only become a “necessity” because of government-enforced globalization, which drives down wages and KILLS job security. Combine that with government subsidies that drive up house and medical prices, and all the sudden it becomes reasonable for women to work instead of having babies.

In a capitalistic system, every time two people “double up” into one apartment, the vacancy rate goes up by one. This causes apartments not to be unaffordable. In today’s Globalist Banksterette Tea Party system, every time someone stops paying their mortgage, the bank just keeps that house vacant using tax-payer money, so vacancies do not go up.

Today’s era of government intervention seems to be breaking the middle class, but I don’t think we should assume this will continue forever. The upper classes may have forced a lot of corruption into government using all that extra money of theirs, but where are they gonna get more money when the consumer is flat broke? I am beginning to notice a lot more politicians these days fighting back against the globalists, saying things that would be unthinkable just a few years ago, even trying to get rid of illegal immigrants!

So don’t fret, the rental companies will not continue to raise rents until we’re all living in over-crowded hovels. It’s a pendulum, that’s all.

Wanna bet?

The two-income family in America was necessary even when Mao was still chairman - the 1970s. My parents bought their lad brand new car in 1978, a Ford Fairmont, not really top of the line. After that, their standard of living went way down.

Yep!

Or at least give it something to hide behind.

Works until to much of their book is in overvalued, illiquid assets and people can’t get their deposits out. Then the FDIC has to step in.

I think the market spinners think if they say that consumers are
going to spend they start spending . They had a poll on one News channel yesterday that said that the Americans wanted to pay down debt ,that doesn’t sound like wanting to beef up spending
to me .

Gee whiz… I was going to give you cash but I already sent the card.

Now I know.

HW,

Well, be fair. I’d hate to be standing at the pearly-gates explaining I couldn’t ‘afford’ my HC premiums b/c I had to get a bigscreen and… my b-hole fell out?

I hope as Americans we’re starting to see how this must look to the rest of the world? Hmm… they’re complaining they can’t afford healthcare…? What’s healthcare? Oh! Seeing a doctor! I saw one ‘once’.

DinOR ….I bet the rest of the World is really befuddled about
what all this health care talk in America is all about and they scratch their heads when thy find out the insurance policies cost more than rent .

Housing Wizard,

LOL! I’ll bet they do. I think doctors in general let a few of us live once in awhile and you find yourself sitting on a barstool next to a guy that tells you this long sad story about how if it weren’t for the $2mil. operation he had..?

That way the rest of us go; Yikes! Better keep ponying up for those damned premiums? Just to add, I’ve been making the case here locally that any ’system’ that doesn’t account for SOME form of -reimbursement- for those that never USED medi/medi at least get there money back!

Think of it this way, if a guy lives to be 90, chances are they were pretty healthy most of their lives! Making good choices. So… on his 90th b’day a loaded Budweiser truck runs him down in the crosswalk!

Where’s ‘his’ equity in the system? I’m sure others have brought that up before but it’s worth mentioning often. Love to see ppl explain ‘that’ away. Why shouldn’t his unused portion go to his heirs? No soc. answers please!

And don’t say “well maybe his wife…” ( they’re all a pain! ) lol

But this is serious matter for people who really need the medical
system and they have some medical problem ,so I don’t want to
offend anybody that needs the medical system . I know people that really do suffer from medical problems that the medical system gives them relief of some sort and it can be life-saving ,but don’t let me near those guys and gals in the white coats .

I watched some Republican congressman say that he wanted to repeal the mandatory requirement and replace it with the inability to discharge medical costs in bankruptcy. He figured that was a better way to encourage the uninsured to buy health insurance.

Yeah, that’s the ticket! Someone who couldn’t afford insurance in the first place would then be stuck with debt that can’t be discharged.

Yes, but don’t you think it’s rare to have a week during the month of December when at least one major metro market is not adversely affected by the weather?

This year it happened to be snow that last week in NYC, but it could just have well been ice storms in Dallas or Atlanta, or a blizzard in the Mid West.

Besides, CA had a major deluge and the stories I’ve read aren’t even mentioning that.

Everything that could have been invented was invented! LOL!

“Anti-lock breaks, seat belts, air bags, engines that last 100k miles, steel belted radials, fuel injection, etc etc etc ”

Most of that stuff been around for 10 years, or more. Yet a loaded 2000 Impala cost 20K, whereas a loaded 2011 costs 30K. We looked at one in 2006 (which is IDENTICAL to the 2011) and it was 24K MSRP.

Where the hell is that damn deflation I keep hearing about?

I remember reading that GM made no money in cars, but insane money on SUV sales.

Maybe cars were under priced 10 years ago??

“I remember reading that GM made no money in cars, but insane money on SUV sales.”

There’s a reason why Toyota and Nissan jumped onto the fullsized pickup and SUV bandwagon. The stupid things are way overpriced.

They make money on every product line, it’s just that truck and SUV margins are BOHICA high because the build cost is that of a P/U truck, but the sell price is that of a loaded mid-size car.

And because people will ALWAYS equate “big” with “better” the suckers lined up around the block and paid more money for less gas mileage and safety.

And yes, 20K for a compact is bullcrap. Keep it and choke on it.

We need to compare the median to the average to measure how much the “Bill Gates in the Bar” effect has changed. Or do we need a weighted average?

An examination of income distributions over time would be more illustrative, rather than the difference of mean and median.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

A brand new car to me would be justifiable only if it costs less than my annual investment income, but my 2003 Toyota runs well enough for me to continue keeping it.

“I wonder how long until the Chinese flood the US with their cars?”

Don’t hold your breath. The Big 3 will do everything they can to keep this from happening and by the time they finish, the tariffs will make them just as expensive as everything else.

Lease price…

So now we’re back to howmuchamonth.

“Now in Argentina, they’s is buying ‘em selves cars as an inflation hedge…heheheehee…really!”

I recall that being the case in Mexico in the 70’s. Cars didn’t depreciate. Of course the price of new ones was soaring into the stratosphere at the the time.

“So now we’re back to howmuchamonth.”

Did we ever leave that behind? I’m not surprised. How many can afford a 5 year loan on a 50K SUV? We’re talking $1,000 per month. So instead you lease it for 500-600. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Geez, my first house cost 21,400.

If a questionaire was presented to the FB who lost his house that had a $500,000 mortgage and who suddenly was hit with a $50,000 medical bill the FB would probably say he lost his house becausee of the medical bill, not because he was overexteded.

So his response would then go into a vast database and some numbers would be crunched and a statistic would be produced that indicated that it’s medical bills that are causing people to lose their houses.

I am thinking more about the median household with a 50K annual income, not dual income 6 figure Californians.

I am now in favor of a National Health Care plan because the Private Insurance system is just a price fixing monopoly

I too feel your pain HW,…

Health/Medical INDUSTRY CORPOORATION Inc.:

human illness = MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

(except not quite so much for VA staffers & their hospital CEO’s.)

lil’ Opie / National health care = Non-Hawaiian Destroyer of AMERICA!

I never thought that I would see the day that a good policy would cost a family more money than rent and this family would be basically healthy .
”

yea its unbelivable

Spot on, Wiz.

Especially if it is the breadwinner that got sick and can no longer work. Being a stay-at-home mom in those circumstances really sucks.

Well, I guess I should admit when I’m wrong so I will.

Earlier I said about 50% of BK’s involved medical debt and I cited that 2005 Harvard study. Well I guess I was wrong according to this BK lawyer in 2009. It looks like the figure could be 60% of BK’s involve medical costs and not 50%.

Sorry if I’m “cherry-picking” but I just can’t find ANY studies or articles supporting that medical cost is not a serious factor in BK’s.

Most Bankruptcies Due To Medical Bills

http://www.wsmv.com/money/23307168/detail.html

“Over 60 percent of the people who file bankruptcy today are due to the high cost of medical bills,” said Robin Gordon of the Gordon Law Group.

And of that 60 percent of bankruptcies caused by medical bills, about 80 percent of those actually had insurance.

“Their costs are still too much to bear, and they’re still finding it necessary to file bankruptcy,” Gordon said.

It looks like the figure could be 60% of BK’s involve medical costs and not 50%.

Shucks. I was wrong again! It’s not 50% like I found yesterday or even 60% of BK’s involve medical debt. This newer study says it’s nearly 2/3’s. Looks like the averaged medical debt is 22K not 50K.

I’m going to stop now. I’m just proving myself wrong.

Medical Bills Cause Most Bankruptcies
By TARA PARKER-POPE NYTimes 6/4/09

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/medical-bills-cause-most-bankruptcies/

Nearly two out of three bankruptcies stem from medical bills, and even people with health insurance face financial disaster if they experience a serious illness, a new study shows.

The study data, published online Thursday in The American Journal of Medicine, likely understate the full scope of the problem because the data were collected before the current economic crisis. In 2007, medical problems contributed to 62.1 percent of all bankruptcies. Between 2001 and 2007, the proportion of all bankruptcies attributable to medical problems rose by about 50 percent.

“The U.S. health care financing system is broken, and not only for the poor and uninsured,” the study authors wrote. “Middle-class families frequently collapse under the strain of a health care system that treats physical wounds, but often inflicts fiscal ones.”

Among families who were bankrupted by illness, those with private insurance reported average medical bills of $17,749 compared to those who were uninsured, who faced an average of $26,971 in medical costs. Those who had health insurance but lost it in the course of their illness reported average medical bills of $22,568.

22K is a lot of money to a big swath of America. I’m sure most of us who post here could easily produce that much cash from a savings account. But a lot of people can’t. They can barely pay the rent, keep the car running and put food on the table (even though some posters here insist that they all have 60″ flat screens, iPhones, iPads and Escalades)

A cliffhanger, CarrieAnn…

What decision was that?

That’s $8,520/year, and the insurance would only cover me.

You *hope* that it will cover you.

I’m paying $400 a month for a family of 4 right now through my employer. They kick in about half. So without their contribution it would be about $800/month. That’s what I would pay through COBRA if I lost my job.

My wife’s back is still a potential problem so we will never be without insurance. But even with it, we can’t get physical therapy because it would cost $50 per visit. And we can’t swing that 3 times a week. Not even close.

I know it’s easier to go without insurance if you’re healthy and single. I did it in my 20s when I was making $375 a week and couldn’t afford ANYTHING. This was in 2000.

Yes - please bring even MORE government into health care so costs can rise even higher.

Like they didn’t in Canada, Europe, Japan and the Veterans Admin. health care?

Those government programs deliver similar results for 1/2 the cost.

Where have you been getting your info?

Nice try, banana. You’re still fooling nobody.

Not all lines are linear, no matter how many logical fallacies Rush uses to fool you. This trend does NOT extend to the end. A little government intervention at least got rid of some job-lock but it made the situation financially. A total government takeover would save TRILLIONS just on simplification. Heck, the reduction in stress alone would make us healthier.

Like they didn’t in Canada, Europe, Japan and the Veterans Admin. health care?

And they have bankrupted their countries.

Where have you been getting your info?

2banana, they bankrupted their countries because of their greedy capitalist banking practices, NOT because of their health care system. The health system was fine.

Try again.

Like they didn’t in Canada, Europe, Japan and the Veterans Admin. health care?

And they have bankrupted their countries.

banana, Seriously, forget the dogma, think of the MATH and the results. (is it possible)

What part about Canada Et al. spending 1/2 as much as the USA don’t you get?

What part about them spending 10% of GDP and USA spends 18% don’t you get?

What part of them spending about 1/2 as much per person as the USA don’t you get?

What part about them spending 1/2 as much as the USA and achieving similar results don’t you get?

What part about them spending 1/2 as much as the USA and insuring EVERYONE while the USA has 50 million uninsured and 50 million with JOKE insurance don’t you get?

What part about you not being able to set aside dogma don’t I get?

“2banana, they bankrupted their countries because of their greedy capitalist banking practices”

And to be fair, the ones in worse shape have ridiculous retirement programs. But they spend half per capita (or even less) than we do on health care, so that isn’t the cause.

So, 2banana, who pays for your health insurance and how much is it? ISTM that most of those advocating for the status quo haven’t had to pay for insurance themselves.

How many people are you responsible for covering? What is your deductible?

My 20 somethings can get a catastrophic policy with a high deductible for about $85 per month each. That would be $5K deductible, 50% coinsurance, and $30 office visit. Not much of a plan, but it could turn a $50K hospital bill into a $15K out of pocket bill (figuring that the actual bill would be discounted to 25K and that $5K and half of $20K would be paid by the patient). $15K would still be onerous for them.

And Wendell Potter has a book out. It’s called Deadly Spin and it’s about the rhetoric that health insurance companies have used when they have the national health insurance heebie jeebies.

“If you can get a better return on borrowed money that the cost of renting the borrowed money then, yeah, it may be a good idea to borrow.”

What are money market funds paying these days — around 0% I assume?

What are money market funds paying these days — around 0% I assume?

1.0-1.5% at Discover Bank (one of my accounts). Zions Bank is a little over 1% as well, IIRC.

$200 won’t get you anything good. Heck, Windows 7 is almost $200 itself.

I remember read that minimum wage law was implemented there and it resulted in the sweatshops and canneries closing.

But I’m sure they all have more time to surf with no job to worry about.

But I’m sure they all have more time to surf with no job to worry about.

Hey my friend Radical Rick makes “made-in-the-USA” surfboards, ifin’ he was dropped on the Island, he’d keep right on makin’ ‘em, he’s never once complained ’bout what the Federal Minimum wage was/is,…why can’t sweatshops and canneries “snap-out-of-it!” and try a new approach to their slaves workers?

Soccer
The next World Cup (to be held in Brazil)

That’s right! Soccer all the time. I was going to mention that. The World Cup and the Olympics

Oh, and where I live no one ever talks about real estate at parties.

Location, Location, Location.

I lived in the Bay Area and LA for 22 years: They ALWAYS talked about Real Estate WAY more than at parties when I’d visit back in the Mid-West.

It’s like a religion in some places.

If they’re talking about real estate at a party, then you did not provide enough booze. Try taking your shirt off or something.

I need to attend more parties with Big V.

When I lived in SoCal I avoided parties like the plague because people spent parties bragging about how “rich” they were.

Given uncontrolled immigration, that’s probably the only way anyone will be elected.

Guys on submarines don’t even get their own bed….they have to hot-bunk with the other shift. And I’ll bet even the CO doesn’t make $172K.

Since it is future and unknown/unknowable, I would lean towards making it a variable—e.g. then you can run the model for various discount rates.

Right now, the markets still seem to be assuming disinflation, though.

Gotta agree with you on this.

Who in hell said that law enforcement caused crime? Good grief do you always stay on script?

Ummmm …

You’re accusing me of commenting from a script? You just said “Just drive more under ground and into the black market.”

If you and I are speaking the same language, then you are implying that the collection of taxes causes people to go into the black market. That is incorrect. If they didn’t collect taxes, then all businesses would be in the black market. That’s what the black market is. It’s a segment of the economy upon which taxes are not levied because profits are not reported.