The Housing Bubble

“If you took every fully-financed house in America (ok, the WORLD) and took half the value of the loans off the Megabank’s balance sheets, what kind of red ink are we talking?”

This is where I have an issue.

Are all these loans really on the banks balance sheet?
Didnt the banks who originated these loans sell them to the fannie, freddie or the wall street machine?

So the banks dont really have a lot of loans on their books as far as i can see.The only loans they might have is the MBS they bought and once they sell they take the loss.

Only a small portion of banks actually keep a loan in house.

Most of the loans made today are sold to fannie , freddie or insured by FHA. The govt is 95% of the secondary market right now.

The loans are on SOMEONE’S balance sheet. A bank is the only entity with a balance sheet up to such a task. Governments don’t actually have any money.

Then if fannie and freddie dont have any money why are they buying all the loans originated by banks right now?

fha, va, fannie and freddie are the mortgage market right now.

When lets say a bank chase gives you a loan that bank then sells the loan to fannie or freddie.they get the original money back and then make another loan.

not sure who actually holds the loan with FHA but FHA guarantees against losses.

very few banks hold a loan on their books.

“The loans are on SOMEONE’S balance sheet.”

MERS?

“Then if fannie and freddie dont have any money why are they buying all the loans originated by banks right now?”

They are called Govermnent guaranteed bonds and the Merabanks are buying them with free money which can be borrowed in unlimited quantities at ZIRP rates. There is no actual money. Just debt and profits. The debt is insured by you and me. We don’t get involved in the profits part.

arizonadude ….

I have been trying to make your point above for a long
time . The Banks were servicing the loans but the bulk was sold to the MBS Securities .I would think that the Lenders had to buy back a certain percentage of the really bad stuff that was make late in the game . Some of that paper became unsaleable late
in the housing boom ,I know Mozillo got caught holding a
bunch toward the end that ended up on the books of F&F .

But what about all the rest of the loans ? I think they Bailed out some of the bundles of securities by direct re-purchasing by the Tarp funds and a certain percentage was bailed out by insurance funds pursuant to places like AIG Insurance Company .Some of the Securities Buyers have filed lawsuit for Fraud
against the seller by this point . The rest I think are spread out losses and it’ just a matter of time if they sue or not .
And of course Banks who folded that had loans on their books
FDIC took those loans and than threw them somewhere .

But the point is why did the Middle Men need to be
bailed out since they weren’t holding most of the loans on their own books ? It’s a good question and I suspect it’s because the plan was to avoid lawsuit by the middle men
being recapitalized to deal with these bunches of securities ,some of which were just duplicate securities of the underlying loan in their casino world of duplicate securities .
This is the reason why Wall Street Investment Firms got in on the bail out also . There was no reason to bail out this Casino World of leverage betting game that Wall Street was into regarding these securities along with their bad faith Credit default bets .
But , the plan isn’t working out very well because these
Securities are losing more value by the day as more foreclosures and lack of income performance from these
bundles gets worse by the day . Some of these retirement funds that were invested have had major losses . What is happening with those bundles of securities ?

The point is that they have been very sneaky about what is really getting bailed out . You can give money to a Bank who turns around and repurchases securities to keep from getting sued and than they unload those securities on the taxpayer ,or a certain percentage . The point is I don’t know why
anything but regulated Banks were bailed out anyway ? The problem is when they took away Glass-Stegal the lending World and the Casino high leverage unregulated betting Investment World meshed together with regulated Banking making it all a big Casino game that was unregulated in practice .

“A bank is the only entity with a balance sheet up to such a task.”

Umm….no. University endowments, hedge/private equity funds, insurance companies, private foundations, mutual funds, pension funds, foreign governments to name a few.

But government ownership of the banks would be socialism, which must be avoided at all costs. So instead, we’ll simple GIVE the money to them and get NOTHING in return. That way we avoid socialism, and the problem* is solved. /sarcasm

*That the banker’s don’t have enough money already.

“University endowments, hedge/private equity funds, insurance companies, private foundations, mutual funds, pension funds, foreign governments to name a few.”

AKA shadow banks?

Bear,

We have seen that insurance companies can be too big to fail (though the example we have is for an insurance company that was back stopping a bank, so maybe it is a bad example), but the others? Not so much. There is already a process in place for pension funds to fail and it is used regularly. If the others lose money, it is their problem. Seriously. Do you think the government would bail out the Gates Foundation? fishing villages in Sweden? Yale? I don’t. There are giant pools of money other than banks.

hey kim,

I think this is the major problem.They make it way too easy for people to walk.

It’s a no brainer when your upside down 200k and you can sit it out for a couple years and buy another house.So basically you save 200k by renting for a couple years.

I am seems oodles of short sales as people dump their overpriced asset and wit it out to buy another one cheaper.

Seems the smart ones are buying homes at current prices in relatives names.

They make it way too easy for people to walk.

It’s a no brainer when your upside down… oodles of short sales as people dump their overpriced asset and wait it out to buy another one cheaper.

This is PRECISELY what the too-big-to-fail banks are doing. Walking, dumping their overpriced asset on Fannie/Freddie, waiting, and buying for cheap. The only people who don’t win this game are the honest ones.

FHA guidelines are not black and white but I know of a case where someone was approved just 3 and 1/2 years after a foreclosure.

“The only people who don’t win this game are the honest ones.”

This is a guiding principle of the housing bubble era.

“The only people who don’t win this game are the honest ones.”

The other group that lost was the idiots who sat on their grossly inflated house and didn’t sell like it were a golden egg. These goobers grimmace when I tell them they should get what they can get for their house today because it’s going to be less tomorrow for decades.

Throw the words “demographic trends” into your argument and watch as their heads nearly explode. It is a lot of fun. You should try it.

I did mention to someone that about 1/2 our town should be selling in about 10-15 years when you consider how many 60+ homeowners are around.

That stopped them dead in their tracks w/their “you should buy now” argument.

“about 1/2 our town should be selling in about 10-15 years when you consider how many 60+ homeowners are around.”

BINGO. This is the understated sub-text of the housing price collapse.

Knifecatching greatest fool identified!

yeah they all want to be documentary filmmakers now…lol. The schools are bending over backwards to make it all “fun” and “relevant” and this is what we get.

My 13yo niece has regular class assignments to make mini movies and PowerPoint reports.

Get with the future old timer!

EVERYBODY is a creative genius these days!

(not. much like secre, er, “office assistants” and managers who think they are Power Point gods)

Why do people think the stock market has anything to do with the health of the country?

“Why do people think the stock market has anything to do with the health of the country?”

Could it have something to do with 25 years or more of Alan Greenspan suggesting it?

I don’t think we need Wall St. anymore. We (Main St.) have decoupled from them. I’d like to relegate Wall St. to the dustbin of history.

The Germans are buying the NYSE.

“I think our worst enemy is that we do not seem to know why we are in this mess. Housing Bubble, Offshoring, changed American values (willing to lie to support greed), runaway gov “essential services”, deflationary economy reducing tax base, doubling M2 in five years, teeter todder decisions (how much can we print without too much dollar devaluation) etc - we have not quantified a co-ordinated response.”

Of which, this and much, much more, would NOT have been possible without our Corporate Free Press Propaganda and our bought and paid for little friends in the US gubermint.

Talk about the PTB running the Great American Psy Ops Scam on the local peasants.

Mikey, I have to agree with you.

Each spoke wants something without regard to the wheel and uses the press to achieve it. Electeds are scared of the press and love all those freebie contributions to their life style.

With little exception we have a gutless press who are afraid of law suits, and like survivors, need those ad dollars.

There is no cohesion on this train. But I sure don’t want a dictator to fix it.

These guys signed a contract to take a dangerous job during their working years in exchange for a secure retirement during their “non-productive” years. So I don’t really get your argument; are you suggesting this contract is easily broken because the beneficiaries are not currently productive? With the tsunami wave of baby boomers about to enter their “non-productive” years, I doubt your argument will gain much political traction.

I sense an agenda by the MSM of going after public pensions; Notice all the articles trashing public pensions?

If/when they are successful then the door will be opened for corporations to go after their own worker’s pensions.

“Notice all the articles trashing public pensions?”

Public anything = easy punching bag target for the disaffected and the politicians who feed on their anger.

“These guys signed a contract to take a dangerous job during their working years in exchange for a secure retirement during their “non-productive” years.”

i would be fine with giving these brave souls funded pensions in their golden years…but their pensions should be drawn upon starting at 65.

from 45/55 to 65…they need to find something else to do.

These guys signed a contract to take a dangerous job during their working years in exchange for a secure retirement during their “non-productive” years. So I don’t really get your argument; are you suggesting this contract is easily broken because the beneficiaries are not currently productive?

Oh, Prof, I don’t expect such simple mindedness out of you. The police and fire unions are highly active politically. They donate huge sums of money to have politicians elected that will then give them the most favorable contracts imaginable. That is not exactly how contracts typically work. A real arms length contract is one where you don’t get to determine who is doing the negotiating on the other side of the table.

Something makes me think you are a little of a public union troll on this matter. Perhaps you are a current or future rider on the public pension train?

“…they need to find something else to do…”

And I am quite certain many of them do. Nonetheless, I reassert that they signed a contract to take a dangerous job in exchange for a good pension and an early retirement date. The same deal was open to any of the bellyacher who complain about the unfairness.

Terrible reasoning Prof. You have really jumped the shark on this issue.

If/when they are successful then the door will be opened for corporations to go after their own worker’s pensions.”

The moneyed class (notice how banana’s article only mentions the liberals of the generation, not the moneyed class?) isn’t attacking firefighters as part of a pension-shedding agenda. They already did that in the 90’s when they right-sized and declared BK on a whim.

Nowadays, they just want to stick it to the government for taxing away their second yacht. Boo-hoo.

“The same deal was open to any of the bellyacher who complain about the unfairness.”

It’s not so much about the “unfairness”, it’s about how will they will be funded. The gov’t workers feel entitled to their pensions, even if it means dramatically raising taxes on pensionless private sector workers who aren’t even getting COLA raises.

It’s going to be a hard sell, especially since the battered middle class will be expected to pick up the tab (God Save the Rich).

We have an interesting scenario here in the Centennial State. TABOR will not allow for new taxes to be raised to cover the states underfunded pension program without voter approval. Of course our state employees are in denial and believe that their pensions will be there when they retire. If PERA was a private pension plan it would declared insolvent. And since TABOR won’t allow a tax increase to bail it out …

“And I am quite certain many of them do.”

Yes, while drawing the pension. Mil can get theirs after 20 yrs can’t they - ?

SS is allowing this now too. I know several who started drawing at62 or 65 and kept working full time. They continute to pay FICA, of course, and I don’t know if this pencils out for us but I suspect it does not.

…”The same deal was open to any of the bellyacher who complain about the unfairness.”

I have heard that is very hard to become a fire fighter (not so much a cop). Although many people are well qualified they cannot get in. Someone told me once that you can tell how overpaid a profession is by the number of people trying to get in. Same goes for prison guards.

I don’t think fire fighters are even in the same league in terms of a “dangerous job” as police, yet they have somehow managed to group them selves with the police and reap the benefits.

To be fair, those poor pensionless private workers gave up their pensions* because they were the end-all be-all of business acumen! They were gonna make LOTS of money! The DOW was where it’s at They were all expert stock pickers and they were gonna retire on the RICH 401K! Heck even certain *ahem* legislative public servants were eager to stake Social Security on their Randian genius in the stock market (skimming fees of course). Didn’t work out that way, did it. All their genius couldn’t compete with the mud hut and the bowl of rice a day.

The fed workers aren’t getting COLA either.

Can’t there be some middle ground? Means testing? Tax over a certain annual pension? Residency requirement?

——–
*or had them forcibly taken via BK cf. airlines. And I should also say that the workers bees didn’t have much of a say in the pensions. I won’t blame them. They had 401K forced on them by the corporate masters. And I notice that these same corporate masters aren’t exactly retiring on the 401K’s that they so espoused — they seem to prefer flush cash deals and lifetime “annuities;” ie. the very pension they took from the employees they outsourced. Corporate types need to be hoisted on their own petard.

Punching the public sector is also an excellent way to deflect blame from the Wall Street Titans.
The public sector is NOT the problem
The problem is the giant PONZI scheme that pumped things up inlfated everything including the public sector and is now crashing. All of this can be layed at the feet of MegaBank inc

I sense an agenda by the MSM of going after public pensions; Notice all the articles trashing public pensions? ”

yes thats for sure got to focus taxpayer anger away from banks.

If/when they are successful then the door will be opened for corporations to go after their own worker’s pensions.”

Already have but this is America so buck up and invent somthing new that can be taxed and outsourced.

The public sector is NOT the problem

Tell that to the people in New Jersey when they look at their property tax bills.

Why does it always have to be one or the other? It is both. The public unions are the government and they have grown and grown in expense and influence. Their pensions and benefits are not sustainable any more than printing trillions of dollars to infinity is sustainable.

This is only a difficult concept if your mind has been slammed shut by your own self interest.

The public sector is NOT the problem

You’re assuming there’s only one problem here, which is ridiculous on it’s face.

Public unions/gov’t employees are certainly *A* problem. They exist only because the gov’t can squeeze money from the non-gov’t employees.

Yes, the bankers are a problem too, but *ONLY* because of the gov’t employees that choose to bail them out and not enforce regulations… If the gov wasn’t bailing them out, there wouldn’t be an issue - these banks would fail, investors would lose money, and the rest of us could move on with our lives.

yet they have somehow managed to group them selves with the police and reap the benefits ??

Thank You 9/11……..

Really, the whole SS won’t exist when I retire thing is silly. ISTR reading somewhere that most projections show SS taking in enough money to pay 75-80% of currently promised benefits indefinitely. So long as the “private accounts” people don’t succeed in their efforts, there WILL be SS and it WILL pay out significant, albiet smaller benefits indefinitely.

Medicare OTOH is projected to become MUCH more expensive, because not only are we growing older, but new treatments mean that the cost of providing insurance to a 67+ year old is growing faster than inflation even as we have more 67+ year olds per employee paying taxes to support the program.

“It’s going to be a hard sell, especially since the battered middle class will be expected to pick up the tab (God Save the Rich).”

The Rich were already massively saved by the TARP and the order-of-magnitude-large Fed-funded bailouts. The working class (including cops and fire fighters) will now enjoy the blood sport pleasure of fighting over scraps.

Cops and Firefighters are not even in the top ten most dangerous jobs.

Fisherman and lumberjack are I’m the top spots.

They don’t get pensions.

“Terrible reasoning Prof.”

If you can’t think up a good counter-argument, then by all means feel free to attack my reasoning with a negative label.

I reassert that they signed a contract to take a dangerous job in exchange for a good pension and an early retirement date. The same deal was open to any of the bellyacher who complain about the unfairness.

Without massive political contributions, bribes, those contracts would not have been anywhere near as lucrative as what they are. They distort the political process to their benefit, much the way the hated financiers on Wall Street distort the political process to their benefit. A pox upon both of their houses.

That same deal is not open to everybody. Police and fire departments are well known nepotism hotspots. Check out police and fire stations throughout the country. Count how many generations in a family hold these jobs. Although these are supposed to be “public service” jobs open to everybody they are usually little fiefdoms that are highly protected and used to enrich a select group of people.

As far as your bellyacher comment a lot of people said that about HBBers in regards to housing when prices were going up. It usually went something like, “you are just jealous because these people are making so much money on real estate”. I guess you don’t see how much you sound like a REIC-ster circa 2006.

I will reiterate that your reasoning is just plain silly.

“Can’t there be some middle ground? Means testing? Tax over a certain annual pension? Residency requirement?”

I had wondered how long it will before before a state tries to make residency in retirement a requirement to drawing from that state’s pension fund. Of course there are numerous ways to get around it or to fudge, but I’d be surprised if THAT stopped the states from trying.

I agree.

How many people work in a high tax state and get a massive pension and then retire to a lower tax state? That is just excellent. And you still get to say I was a “public servant” for all of those years. It happens all the time around here. But don’t say anything or you must hate the “working man” and love Wall Street.

The public sector is NOT the problem

Big Measton fan here but you got this one wrong. Perhaps the scale of the fraud is smaller than that of the corporate elite, but fraud none the less.

Google search Massachusetts-probation-department and then tell me it’s not a problem….

“How many people work in a high tax state and get a massive pension and then retire to a lower tax state?”

Only a handful of states are like this. The rest of the nation is NOT.

Please STOP PROJECTING YOUR LOCAL SITUATION onto the national situation, because most gov employees don’t make fat bank on retirement.

ecofeco - Own a mirror?

And made huge political contributions to max out the gravy you soak up from the public coffers. Then go and explain to your neighbors why their property taxes are so high. Public union trolling does not become you, Prof.

so…

big banksters make huge political donations to get what they want…bad.

big unions make huge political donations to get what they want…good.

Yes, that is exactly what I wrote.

They are both bad. How hard is that to understand?

Thank you for your completely pointless post.

I posted too quickly. My dyslexia kicked in. Sorry about that.

Why don’t people understand that political bribes are bad, no matter who is doing the bribing?

Maybe you should have been a cop or a fire fighter?

Maybe more like “Maybe you should have hit the Lotto” because getting a Firefighter job is just like it….4 spots recently here….Over 2600 qualified applicants…

my wife wanted to be a cop like her father all her life. he retired from the suffolk county police department.

she was told that since she had a college degree she should let someone who doesn’t have a “chance”.

she *mysteriously* failed the polygraph test and the police chief’s son got the opening.

funny…15 years later she passes an FBI polygraph.

also…she has a high school friend who started soon after high school. he is 38 now and will soon be able to “retire” with a six figure pension.

life is good.

she *mysteriously* failed the polygraph test and the police chief’s son got the opening.

funny…15 years later she passes an FBI polygraph.

And now she’s an FBI agent?

“4 spots recently here….Over 2600 qualified applicants…”

Anyone who doesn’t like playing job market lotto can feel free to try to get accepted into medical school or a good PhD program.

You are sounding dumber with each post Prof. Please just give it up.

“And now she’s an FBI agent?”

not an agent…she is applying for a professional support position…forensic accountant.

passed the polygraph and is now in background check mode.

but there is a department wide hiring freeze…not sure if it impacts the position she is applying for.

I have to agree with Boy here, Prof.

The gaming of the retirement system by CA. cops and firefighters in particular would be laughable if it weren’t so detrimental to the rest of society in general and to other pensioners specifically.

In my opinion there is no excuse for these guys taking their 100% tax-free “disability” pensions (which a surprising number of firefighters seem to do after tripping down the stairs of the firehouse,) or retiring in their early 50’s with full pensions, benefits, and “perks” (golfing, skiing, “advanced education,” kids’ scholarships, for free,) ALL WHILE CONTINUING TO WORK THEIR REAL JOBS in some other field– like commercial real estate, pyramid sales, construction, trucking, etc.

When the contracts are heavily skewered by coercion in the first place, and gamed to the max through collusion with “brother” unionists after the fact, it is only a matter of time until the public sees through the scam and calls foul. $50K a year retirement with health benefits is more than enough for ANY rank and file public employee with an undergraduate (or less,) degree. $100K+ for a fireman is simply absurd–and that’s not an anomaly in many California jurisdictions.

Contrary to popular opinion, firefighting, policing, are NOT among the ten most dangerous professions (while public school teaching IS,) and these clowns game their scheduling and overtime to retire with six-figure-for-LIFE pensions. Not commensurate with their contributions to society, and given the rampant corruption and cronyism, in my opinion, bordering on the criminal.

In any case, there is comfort in knowing that a lot of these people got their arses handed to them in real estate “investment” schemes and for many, the jig is now up.

Contracts are renegotiated every day, Prof. My guess is that when our “heroes” unions are offered 10 cents on the dollar in bankruptcy court or a 60% cut in retirement pay, they’ll choose the latter.

Oh, my gosh, Hansen is back. I don’t come here all the time but I haven’t seen your name in ages. It is good to see your writing and a little strange to see how much we agree.

I don’t know how but your name came up when I was talking to my wife recently. I mentioned that I hadn’t seen you on the HBB for a long time.

The last time I saw hide nor hair of you was last year. I was at a convention in Albany, having a Sam Adams in the hotel bar. I looked at one of the many TV sets and there you were. You were on some show I never watch.

I hope you are doing well and life is treating you decently.

As for the public unions there are so many things that can be criticized it just amazes me how virulently people defend them. Typically the people defending them are doing it out of a wide streak of self-interest.

As somebody that has spoken against my own self-interest hundreds, maybe thousands, of times in the past few years I don’t buy the self-interest excuse. Just because something might hurt your pocketbook doesn’t make it any less true. I would much rather lose some of what I have and have a sustainable country than blindly defend any wrongful policy. But I am used to always being in the minority, even on the HBB.

or a good PhD program ??

And get 1/2 the income & benefits for 10 times the education ??

Agreed sc.

When a 35-year-old PhD biologist with ten years experience running a bio-engineering project at a major university can expect to make $32K a year, and a 20-year-old first year rookie fireman with an AA (in something called “fire science,”) pulls in $76K*, something is terribly, terribly wrong with this country.

*Two personal friends in CA circa 2007.

I guess the PhDs should just get a better union and figure out how to scare and extort the public. Problem solved.

I was ready to start my tirade when you got in ahead of me to outline most of my position…………

“These guys signed a contract to take a dangerous job during their working years in exchange for a secure retirement during their “non-productive” years. So I don’t really get your argument”

What a crock! I didn’t get to be a counter-signatory to the contract. It was done without my consent and without my permission, but these guys think I need to be held accountable to pay for their luxuries.
Full retirement benefits on inflated salaries for 20 years “service” is simply stealing from the taxpaying public.
If they want a “lump sum settlement” of around 100k for their time in service, then fine.
Or, if they have 20 years service at age 65, and want to retire, then a figure for 20 years could be agreed to, which would be the lowest amount……no 90 to 100% of their last 2 years…………..and finally,
NO payments until age 65. Period. You want to “retire”, then you need to be retirement age, or you get a lump sum payout……..No “income stream” for the next 30 years to 40 years for 20 years of “service”.

The PhD is clearly experiencing the effects of suppply and demand; the universities in this country are simply producing too many PhDs. However, this brings up an intersesting point. Why should someone with a PhD get paid more than someone with an AA? Where did this idea come from and why do some many people believe in it so fervently?

I meant to write so many people, not some many.

Once again I’ll post this.

Read PLUNDER by Steven Greenhut.

An exacting, well researched account of the
unholy marriage between unions and public
officials that will make you blood boil. A very well written expose of the corruption
and malfeasance of our elected officials by
union hacks to further both their nests.

Boy et al,
I’ve been lurking about the forum this last year or so, following the conversation and riling my umbrage, but quietly as I gather ammo for my next salvos….

Hint: FNMA and FMCC better watch the eff out.

For those who’ve inquired, a rather sentimental retelling of my misadventure –complete with bogus re-enactment!– can be seen on this recent Canadian production. Go to cmt.ca forward slash Shows forward slash petheroes

Then scroll down to episode 4, parts 1 and 2.

“Maybe more like “Maybe you should have hit the Lotto” because getting a Firefighter job is just like it….4 spots recently here….Over 2600 qualified applicants…”

Out here guys play volunteer firefighter in anticipation of the day when they can reach for the brass ring.

Why should someone with a PhD get paid more than someone with an AA ??

Because one is a doctor and the other is barely beyond a high school level education…Which one would you hire nothing else known ??

guys play volunteer firefighter in anticipation of the day when they can reach for the brass ring ??

Here, if your not a volunteer you need not even apply for a permanent position…

Boy et al,
I’ve been lurking about the forum this last year or so, following the conversation and riling my umbrage, but quietly as I gather ammo for my next salvos….

Hint: FNMA and FMCC better watch the eff out.

For those who’ve inquired, a rather sentimental retelling of my misadventure –complete with bogus re-enactment!– can be seen on this recent Canadian production. Go to cmt dot ca forward slash Shows forward slash petheroes

Then scroll down to episode 4, parts 1 and 2.

7. Roofer

Roofers are true American (and Brazilian) patriot Hero’s. (I don’t like it up there.)

They don’t mince words. They tell it like it is.

Sometimes they don’t mince words when they tell it like it ain’t too.

Oh so true, Rio.

It’s likely that every subsequent generation will be more selfish than than the Boomers, but the post-boomer generations didn’t parade in the mud at how loving we were.

I was 11 years old when Woodstock happened. I can recall my mother muttering about the hippies that were too dumb to come in out of the rain.

And I couldn’t help but agree with her.

Heck, if I’d stayed out in the rain for that long, she’d still be needling me about it today, 42 years later.

I’m a tail end boomer and I have to agree that many of the older boomers are some of the most selfish, self absorbed SOBs you’ll ever meet.

Especially the ex-hippies.

OT - Anyone using the IRS free online tax forms & filing? I’m so used to buying TaxCut every year that I can’t quite wrap my head around this..

http://www.irs.gov/individuals/index.html

I’ve always done my own taxes by “hand”. I print out a set of draft forms and fill them in by pencil and calculator. When I’m happy with them, I go back and type in the fillable-PDF copies downloaded from the IRS site. I generally go down and pick up the free instruction books to save on printing them out myself - sometimes it’s easier to read through the books in hardcopy form and use a highlighter to pick out the few parts that are relevant. They don’t mail them out anymore so you have to go find a place that has them - in Boise it’s the Federal Bldg.

I made only $20K taxable last year, but have to file schedules A, B, D, and form 8606.

Funny you should ask. TD Ameritrade finally posted my 1099 today. I got my Federal and Idaho taxes worked out in about 2 hours.

The hardest part was figuring out that a trad IRA to Roth IRA rollover makes me file a form 8606.

oops, didn’t mean to post nested like that.

I do my taxes by hand, too. I’m visiting some friends who live pretty close to an IRS service center, so I’ll stop off on the way there to collect a few forms. I don’t like giving that much of my private information to commercial companies. Just not their business. I think I can get the state forms at the library or the local community center.

Never understood the obsession with mowing grass. Ours is so sparse that it takes about ten minutes to mow it (our front lawn doesn’t have any grass, having been either chomped or clomped down by endlessly giving our neighborhood kids horse and pony rides around the house. We don’t have a back lawn, because our house backs up to a hill — plenty of red clay, though!
As for golf, I’ve never played it in my life, mainly because I’m such a klutz when it comes to any sport that involves a ball!

I don’t give a damn about the lawn, but about the trees. I try to spot water the trees in rotation, but there are so many I have to rely on hubby’s constant lawn-watering as well.

I can’t figure out how hiding underneath my desk was supposed to shield me from nuclear fallout!

Did you sit by a fox?

Malnutrition is the leading cause of mental illness. Especially the everyday kind that creates crime and causes learning disabilities.

“The beatings will continue until moral improves.”

isn’t Medicare free?

Free? Medicare is as “free” as the Canadian tax-payer funded universal healthcare.

Maybe that’s why 85% of Canadians prefer their system to the American BS system while only 8% of Canadians would prefer America’s cruel system. While only 25% of Americans are satisfied with access to affordable healthcare in the USA. source: Wiki

Answer: Of course it’s not “free”.

Its free if you never worked a day in your life and you are indigent. A bigger percentage of our people than anybody would care to admit. Watch Daytime talk shows for more info.

It’s not free, they pay a premium out of their SS check, and another premium if they have medigap.

Medicare premiums:

https://questions.medicare.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/2305/~/medicare-premiums-and-coinsurance-rates-for-2011

It isn’t hard to find this stuff folks.

Its (Medicare) free if you never worked a day in your life and you are indigent.

Yea, it’s also free if this is that and the other thing is like this that isn’t like the other one.

3 points:
1. Public policy is not set on the analogy of the outliers.

2. Definitions of entire public programs are not defined by outlying data now matter what am radio leads one to believe.

That a few might receive “free” treatment in a massive paid-for system does not classify the system as “free”.

3. But your original question was “does anyone trust the government anymore.” I produced two studies showing in healthcare, yes. One produced a quote discussing the exact issue of “trust”.

“When those who prefer Medicare were asked why, about a third of them said it was because they “trust Medicare more than private plans.””

So even if you argument is correct that Medicare is “free” (which it is not) being “free” would not really affect the issue that you brought up anyway which was “trust”.

Think about it. Why would someone “trust” Medicare over Blue Cross just because it were “free”. They might “want to use” it more or they may “be happy it’s there” but why would they “trust” it more??

Would I “trust” free bottled water at the store to be cleaner than Perrier bottled water? No. What part about being free would lead to trust?

Therefore, even if Medicare were free (which it’s not), being free would not be an aspect that would lead to trust anyway.

Therefore, even if Medicare were free (which it’s not), being free would not be an aspect that would lead to trust anyway.

continued:
Therefore, Medicare recipients trusting Medicare more than private health insurance would not be a matter of Medicare being “free” (which it’s not). But the seniors trusting Medicare more than private insurance comes from somewhere else.

And that somewhere else is realizing how lousy, dishonest, moneygrubbing, procedure-denying, inept and immoral their private health insurance was before they had the golden opportunity to qualify for the lifesaver of government run Medicare.

This is why seniors trust Medicare way more than private BS health insurance.

And that somewhere else is realizing how lousy, dishonest, moneygrubbing, procedure-denying, inept and immoral their private health insurance was before they had the golden opportunity to qualify for the lifesaver of government run Medicare.

For an insider’s account of just how crummy private insurance companies are to their premium-paying customers, read Wendell Potter’s new book, Deadly Spin. He used to be VP of corporate communications for CIGNA.

With regards from your HBB Librarian…

“how lousy, dishonest, moneygrubbing, procedure-denying, inept and immoral their private health insurance was ”

RioAmericanInBrasil, you’ve got that right.

Getting a claim paid with Blue CrxSS was a nightmare (a non-controllable risk), and then we change to Kaiser (independent plan). Kaiser is a private co. masquerading as a non-profit. We’re not happy with all the no’s and the lousy diagnostics. The U.S. system is very dysfunctional.

Pills and radiation isn’t always the answer. One of my issues was food allergies, that an outside of Kaiser doc tested my blood for. (Antibodies we’re found, changed my diet, and I am cured!)

Obama misses more opportunites before breakfast than any of us will ever have in a lifetime. -is a more concise T-shirt-grade statement.

Obama was fought every step of the way by….

Come on, this isn’t a trick question.

It is the soft police state versus the hard police state.

So long as there’s lube involved, each has its place

‘You really don’t care at all that they shifted the losses off of their books, and onto yours?’

Look back at the HBB in 2005. Nobody that I’m aware of was watching the mess at the GSEs more than me. I even tried to rally you guys and take this stuff to Washington, but didn’t get much interest.

Also, I’m not buying into this taxpayer/victim idea that ‘all’ these losses are ‘mine.’ I’ve said it a thousand times; I’m not the US govt, nor the Federal Reserve, and they aren’t me. Any money they’ve borrowed won’t be paid back by me or you. It’s mathematically impossible. Hell, we can’t even pay the interest.

Why are the bond markets still loaning the US money? I don’t know. But I don’t lose any sleep over what these clowns in DC do. Meanwhile, there is a huge opportunity for those that can stay focused.

Any money they’ve borrowed won’t be paid back by me or you. It’s mathematically impossible. Hell, we can’t even pay the interest.

I am half-way of that mind. I agree much of it is funny money that will never be paid back. I’ve made that argument before.

But the half that concerns me is the relative wealth transfer from the bail-outs of TBTF, the fairness and the moral implications. By backstopping TBTF we have continued the wealth and power transfer from goods producing industries that benefited the middle-class to the FIRE (financial, insurance,real estate) sector economy.

FIRE represented about 11% of our economy 40 years ago and about 25% now. The bailouts enable this continuing trend which has had the result of benefiting only about 1% of our population even though it represents 25% of our economy. The rising FIRE sector has done nothing for the rest of us. It has hurt us in the aggregate.

Not bailing out would have been painful but IMO, would have let us to pursue a more balanced, productive and sustainable economic structure.

It would also have been the right thing to do from a moral, fairness and a capitalistic point of view. And that’s huge because it’s hard to find anything that can reconcile all three of those things at the same time.

“Also, I’m not buying into this taxpayer/victim idea that ‘all’ these losses are ‘mine.’ I’ve said it a thousand times; I’m not the US govt, nor the Federal Reserve, and they aren’t me. Any money they’ve borrowed won’t be paid back by me or you.”

I want to be clear on one thing: I don’t feel like a victim.

And I understand your point that the debt will never be paid back—I think it is likely that you will be proven right about that. Although somewhere along the line before we get to that point, I think it very likely that we eventually get the austerity screws put to us by the IMF bankers in return for their support in a “re-working” of the debt. In a way, I think it will end up being very similar to the mortgage mods programs that did NOT keep people in their homes, but merely kept squeezing their financial blood out for another 6mo or a year. The taxpayer will get de-juiced before we are smart enough to fully default.

But none of that changes the fact that tons of losses have been removed from TBTF banks, to the benefit of their execs, their shareholders, and their bondholders.

That is a clear wealth-transfer that offends my sense of right & wrong. I don’t think I’m playing the “victim” by being offended by that.

Ben, I would be very interested in what you see as the reminaing “huge opportunity”in this slow-motion train-wreck. I did pretty well in 2007/2008, but got gored by the bull in 2009/2010 on the Fed-induced rally that I still think makes no sense.

Are you just referring to the opportunity to eventually buy a reasonably-priced house? That’s still not possible in my area, though I believe we will get there eventually.

Well said.

And I’ll sure as HELL trust gov over Wall St. any day of the week. (although there doesn’t seem to be much difference in that area these days)

Corruption is rampant from Government to private industry to the point it has created a crisis in may areas . The systems are a mixed bag of good and bad . Unless the corruption in the systems are addressed and correct action prevails we will continue to see these ploys to divert from real solutions to the problems.
In other words ,the answer to the high cost of Health care
isn’t the Health Insurance Companies raising the price as a example .

What worries me is that if federal spending is reduced, more people will be out of work - mostly government workers and contractors, with trickle down effects to small business that depend on consumer and business spending.

Who will pick up the slack? Private companies have not started hiring and some of those that have are hiring in other countries.

States and municipalities are already laying off.

Pooh pooh Keynsian stimulus all you want. Just explain to me how the economy recovers without it.

Frankly, I think the Republicans want to cut spending so that the economy will tank going into the 2012 election.

Two words: Mark Zandi.

Are you one of those guys who would let an economist operate on you if you needed heart surgery?

Did the economist stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Two more words: Sean Snaith

For those readers who don’t recognize the name, Snaith is the Florida economist paid by the taxpayers to make reassuring statements. He’s now known as DOCTOR Sean Snaith. Bwahahahaha! A California export to Florida. How did we get so lucky?

Dissecting the human body with the intent to make it work again and inspection for inflation are not the same difficulty. People pay money all the time for things, and can readily see inflation. Poor analogy, bear, you don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Are you one of those guys who would let an economist operate on you if you needed heart surgery?

Boy, your biases are showing through in all of their glory today, Prof. To compare an economist with a surgeon is like comparing a politician to a hooker. Okay, bad analogy.

Economics is not a hard science. Its high priests are generally quacks and charlatans. I would not want an economist performing surgery on me. Hell, I wouldn’t even want an economist to scrub my toilets. Give an economist a toilet brush and they would probably try to fornicate with it.

Give an economist a toilet brush and they would probably try to fornicate with it.

But what if he’s a Democrat?

“People pay money all the time for things, and can readily see inflation.”

It’s a problem which has challenged Nobel Prize winning economists; great you find it so simple to understand!

You got me there…I suspect part of the problem is that some economists in high office occasionally feel tension between providing objective commentary and their self-defined roles as economic cheerleaders. I personally doubt that anyone who could not have seen the housing disaster bearing down by August 2007 would have been able to rise to the top of the Fed.

You’re getting warmer. How about no banks at all?

“How about no banks at all?”

You always have the option to relocate to an Islamic country if that is what you prefer.

You always have the option to relocate to an Islamic country if that is what you prefer.

yes, because wanting no banks means having to give up our constitutionally-protected rights and liberties?

“yes, because wanting no banks means having to give up our constitutionally-protected rights and liberties?”

No, rather because eliminating banks means having to give up constitutionally-protected rights and liberties, in the form of a loss of economic freedom.

I have no problem if some bank wants to loan absurd sums of money to people who clearly have no hope of ever repaying it, just so long as I am not forced to bail out either party. This is America, where bankers and borrowers have a constitutional right to financially hang themselves.

No, rather because eliminating banks means having to give up constitutionally-protected rights and liberties, in the form of a loss of economic freedom.

Please support this statement. How does the existence of banks support/provide economic freedom?

PBear, first of all, the constitution says nothing about banks, and second, your fixation with bailouts is blinding you to a much more basic problem with bank charters.

Even if banks are never bailed out, and even if there is no central bank to give member banks preferential access to funds, banks still have a tremendous advantage over ordinary people in the form of limited liability (for debts and torts). A regular J6P who has saved capital and wants to lend it cannot compete fairly in this situation.

“…the constitution says nothing about banks…”

So you are saying we have a free market economy, except banking should be prohibited? I can recommend countries that practice Sharia Law if you seriously want to avoid banks entirely. Otherwise, I recommend you store your wealth in gold and invest in a good, well-hidden safe deposit box which you keep in your closely-guarded personal possession. Better yet, invest in some long-lived assets with lasting value which you can enjoy (e.g., if you are a violinist, buy some nice violins and bows), and sell later on in exchange for devalued fiatscos.

“How does the existence of banks support/provide economic freedom?”

That was not my point. Rather, eliminating banks from existence represents a loss of economic freedom for those who want to operate banks or borrow from them. If you don’t want to either practice banking or borrow money from them, nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do so, ARE THEY?

That was not my point. Rather, eliminating banks from existence represents a loss of economic freedom for those who want to operate banks or borrow from them.

banks are chartered by the US gov’t, are they not? It’s not a question of freedom to operate as a repository of other’s money….I agree - individuals should be free to operate in that fashion. However I fail to see how the existence of a gov’t charter somehow makes things “better”.

This of course may not be what you’re arguing. If all you’re saying is that an individual/corporation should be able to provide what are commonly considered banking functions today, I would agree with you.

“The United States is becoming the laughingstock of the world,” Trump said, sounding every bit a candidate as he offered his rationale for a possible bid. In a speech sprinkled with quips and jabs, he said he would decide by June whether to run.
======
So he’s considering making the laughingstock-ness official?

Wow…and I hadn’t been taking him seriously as a candidate before. Never thought that maybe he’s the perfect person to represent us.

Lord protect us from presidential candidates with living hair pieces!

We weren’t discussing Quantitative Easing.

Bernanke 2007: “Subprime is contained”

Bernanke 2011: “There is no inflation” (referring to price inflation)

Yep, he is really learning. He is either an Ivory Tower idiot, a liar or a lying Ivory Tower idiot. I’m going with a little from Column A and a little from Column B.

They are backing more than just housing loans.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck. I suspect whatever Frankenstein creation the Congress cooks up as part of the process of eliminating the role of GSEs in the U.S. housing market will look a lot like a Fannie.

I can’t count the amount of bars and restaurants we have stopped going to when they lose their best employees. Of course the new employees do generally cost less.

Penny wise and pound foolish.

There are all kinds of businesses in the US that have been trying to do more and more, while giving the guys/gals that keep the wheels greased less and less. We’re getting real close to the day where a lot of us are going to say fook it, and let the wheels fall off.

Which reminds me of how I’ve been handling the aforementioned longtime client: No more special deals. No more reduced rates. She gets charged what everyone else does — and, last summer, I cranked my rates up substantially. (I decided that it was time to be rewarded for my experience and expertise.)

When she whined about the amount that I billed for work done last month, I told her that if price is a concern, she should find someone else. She paid.

I recall reading in the Denver Post that Copilots at Frontier Airlines start at 40K.

You can always entertain other offers while you are working at that new job.

Which is what a friend of mine did.

She lasted something like three months in one job before a better offer came along. She went for it. And has been working at said better job for, oh, three years now.

Yeah…that’s my least favorite way to handle it, though. I sent an email to the VP I’ve been talking to and explained that. Once I start a job I like to be 100% committed to that job and ignore other people who took their sweet time getting back to me. That’s hard to do if you’ve been lowballed. I’m hoping he’ll see my point.

Thanks again to the HBB for helping put me in the position where I can live several more months without a job if I need to. Makes this whole thing WAY less stressful…I need to donate as soon as I start my new job.

Nobody has proved to me yet that all this HR bullcrap improves the quality of the person you actually hire. It’s a make-work program.

All getting thru the HR gauntlet proves is that you know how to speak/think “HR”. There’s more examples that I can easily count of guys who came thru HR with glowing endorsements and looked great on paper, but weren’t worth a crap when they actually started working.

Amen.

I’m in my early 40s and was wondering if that would affect me yet. So far I don’t *think* it has. Another 10 years and I assume it will. I have noticed that a lot of positions I’m looking at want at least 5-7 years of experience in the industry and I’m already at 15. Makes me think…hmmmmm. I don’t see anybody asking for more than 10…

“Makes me think…hmmmmm. I don’t see anybody asking for more than 10…”

Maybe because most tech is “obsolete” after 10 years (thanks Microsoft). When I tell the young pups that I cut my teeth programming at the Windows API level using C they stare at me like I’m some kind of relic.

You young pup. I cut my teeth on punch cards - COBOL on IBM 360s.

Fortran on Univac….
sigh.

A big difference in what I see as far as work: In the “good old days” we actually invented stuff. Now “software engineering” is about slapping an ASP.NET front end to acccess a database. Very cookie cutter programming.

I was surprised to learn that most young pups have never heard of the halting problem or don’t know how to algorithmically balance a binary tree. A Computer Science degree these days is a vocational degree.

You looking for a job in Microwave electronics? broadband digital stuff.

No, that’s so far outside my area of expertise I’d be no better than a new grad.

I think you’re right that it’s almost all word-of-mouth any more. Interestingly to me…Boulder is such a small community that Craigslist is almost like word-of-mouth around here. I guess the people they don’t want to hear from must not use it.

I think it was Mike In Bend that was talking about ads in the paper? I didn’t want to give him a hard time because he’s got enough problem, but honestly I haven’t heard of people using the paper to look for jobs in at least a decade. I guess the joke would be on me if for some reason that turned out to be the place to look :-).

Like I acknowleged in my post print is dead. 7 jobs seems really pathetic though. currently, I have job security, as a sub and tutor; just not enough hours as I try to break into the local teaching market. Taught HS today; 2nd grade last week. Underemployment really shouldn’t be longer than we can handle with our rental income from our paid off house; as Bofa keeps handing us months of free rent at my wife’s borrowed pad; home sweet home for now.

Heck, we had rental management companies scratching their heads a few years back as to how we successfrully found tenants. (Craigslist) So long as I get something with benefits within a couple years we’ll be fine. That or I will have enough work credits under my belt to collect disability for the knife in my back, which has been plauging me for 12 yrs now.

Like cozying up to big money?

Follow along now NYC boy. Family values…..

It’s hypocrisy when you excuse perjury, perversion, and violence in Democrats but then slam Republicans for much lesser offenses.

Again…. follow along. Another “conservative” gets his rightful punishment for violating the very rules he criticizes others for.

Are you referring specifically to this guy Christopher Lee? Is there a liberal who said that sex is a private matter during the Clinton years who is now making a fuss about this Lee guy? If so, then you have identified a hypocrite. Please share the name of that liberal so identified.

Frank, Clinton and all the other hobgoblins aren’t out there harping on “family values” and “conservative principles”. It’s a said state that it has to be spelled out for you…..

I agree. And perplexing.
On the level of hypocrisy on this issue:

Republicans 8
Democrats 2

Did anyone say they excused perjury?

Democrats are as screwed up as Republicans. But most Democrats don’t go out of their way to shout out “God is on our side”.

then slam Republicans for much lesser offenses.

Correction, “TrueHypocrite’s™” slam themselves, no “Democrapt’s are anti-America” help needed.

On the level of hypocrisy on this issue:

Republicans 8
Democrats 2

4:1

Works in Hwy’s family

On the “We’re ALWAYS RIGHT!”,…”Hwy you are rarely”… ratio:

2:1

(But I’m the only one of 3 who can fit into the Captain America outfit.”)

Then you have zero stake in it so why drop a complaint in the blog bitch box?

I’m the one paying yet I have no stake. Great logic there. And of course you overlook the fact that most municipalities that provide city water/sewage won’t allow you to put in a well or a septic system, thus making you a captive to their rates/policies.

I didn’t realize you were the gatekeeper for what anecdotes are worthwhile on this blog and which aren’t. My apologies. Perhaps Ben should give you a pretty hat or something so we all can see how special you are.

Look you’re running all over the place on this one. First you squeal about a water/sewer rate increase, then you say you rent, now you’re saying you pay for water/sewer on top of rent. Are you a fool with a hole in his pocket or just stupid???? MOVE. Tell the landlord to pay for it. Whatever.

drummin, thanks again for the Joshua Tree program. It has allowed me to put the lefty drones of this blog on ignore. They don’t realize it but their political religion is far more aggressive than anything anybody even slightly conservative posts on this blog. The reading experience is much better without having to read their slop.

now you’re saying you pay for water/sewer on top of rent.

Yes. That’s common in the real world. Rent pays for the right to occupy the property. One must then pay for their utilities on top of that - electric, gas, water, trash removal.

If you really can’t follow along, there’s really no way to make it less complicated for you.

I’m thinking a colorful hat with bells on it would be nice. Like the jesters used to wear in the olden-days.

drummin, thanks again for the Joshua Tree program. It has allowed me to put the lefty drones of this blog on ignore.

Thanks, NYCityBoy. Sadly, I let myself get suckered into reading their comments every once in a while. But on the whole it makes the reading experience much better.

Of course it’s depressing when you realize half of the comments are collapsed and colored red. It’s a shame this blog’s become overrun with zealots.

You got caught in another falsehood again. Get it over it.

“now you’re saying you pay for water/sewer on top of rent.”

“Yes. That’s common in the real world. Rent pays for the right to occupy the property. One must then pay for their utilities on top of that - electric, gas, water, trash removal.”

Every house I have rented in Seattle has had the same arrangement.

You got caught in another falsehood again.

and that would be….?

Are you saying my water rates didn’t go up?
Are you saying I don’t rent my house?
Are you saying it doesn’t affect me, as the one paying the bill?
Are you saying the city would allow me to drill a well if I were the homeowner?
Are you saying the city would let me put in a septic system if I were the homeowner?

The reading experience is much better without having to read their slop.

Heck yea. Especially when one doesn’t have the chops to counter.

Then it’s way better.

But the bummer is, now you can’t respond because you said you’re not reading this.

I guess his imfamous filter is shut off.

Wow. Ignorant and proud of it, huh?

Wow.

Wow. Ignorant and proud of it, huh?

Who is this directed to?

I knew your were reading every last word.

You must be doing well if groceries are less than 1% of your pay

The 1% was in reference to the water bill, not groceries.

My food bill is a WHOLE ‘nother issue, but I go out to eat quite frequently.

Oh, that’s different. I was thinking you must either be making a fortune or you eat ramen every day. I don’t like to think about my food and entertaining expenses. After rent it is second and sometimes that is a little too close for comfort.

Is busing an option for you, drummin? That’s pretty much the only way to dodge it on 520…

We’re opening an office in Kirkland in a month or so, so I’ll get to avoid the tolls on most days. Of course there’s still the days I’ll choose to drive in to the Fremont office.

Could not tax, took a vote of 13/13 to amend, only one branch of government(no court system), no navy…

Yes, you’ve listed some advantages, but what was the PROBLEM?

Yes, you’ve listed some advantages, but what was the PROBLEM?

States were getting into some pretty heated disagreements with each other. And, if I’m remembering my American history correctly, some of those disagreements turned nasty. Shay’s Rebellion being a case in point.

States were also enacting tariffs against each other’s products as protectionist measures.

Shays’ rebellion was not a disagreement among states, but a revolt against high taxes, unpaid military wages and unfair debtors’ laws. The response should have been to address the rebels’ grievances, not to add an even bigger and more oppressive layer of government.

The founders looked into the future and decided that libertarian wet dreams would only lead to chaos…..

And look where the big government wet dreams have led us now.

There was a time in my youth when I thought anarchy was the way to go. Why do we need government at all?

I was naive. I did not know that there were really nasty people around. I thought everyone was like me and would strive to treat others fairly.

Back in 2003 I gave a friend $50 because he said he was running for Town Drunk. As it turned out it was not an elected office.

i dontated $ 100 to Ron Paul last election.

first and pretty much the last time i donate politically.

Voluntarily give my money to politicians?

Are you insane?!

Might as well wipe your butt with it…. same good it’ll do you UNLESS you’re a billionaire.

Friends keep in touch.

Acquaintances don’t. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with that.

Move a few times, and find out who your real friends are.

Move a few times, and find out who your real friends are.

Tell me about it!

I am still hearing ears-full from my mother about the daughter of someone who lived next door to the folks for, oh, 38 years. Daughter was living there when we moved in, but she got married shortly thereafter.

Any-hoo, to say that our families were close was an understatement. But then things changed after the matriarch of the next door neighboring family died in 1996. Mom was crushed, as that lady was her confidant.

Then, when the daughter and her brother moved the old man out in 2004, Mom said that the family didn’t even come over to say goodbye. That really miffed my mother.

After the old man moved over to the son’s nearby house, the son and his wife stayed in touch. The daughter? Well, it’s as if the Slim family just dropped out of her world.

You guys are gay for even using facebook.

And you show your (lack of) character by using ‘gay’ as a pejorative term.

Friends don’t let friends friend Facebook friends.

Wow! I just wrote a sentence containing four instances of ‘friends’ with four distinct definitions!!

“And you show your (lack of) character by using ‘gay’ as a pejorative term.”

Eat my balls.

+1

Sounds like he must have meant it in a good way.