The Housing Bubble

I was more taking umbrage with your notion that unions single handedly took down the auto Industry.

Uneducated. They have a highschool education and likely lots of on the job training before they make 30 bucks an hour.

Plenty of businesses belong to groups that perform collective bargaining.

Who do you sell your product to? Do they have jobs that pay more than slave wages?

I mean really if we are going to compete with China we will have to pay our labor just enough to keep them alive. How many will have money to buy from you if we continue to move in this direction?

“How many will have money to buy from you if we continue to move in this direction?”

Depends…are they relying on the government or their own job? Jobs today pay based on ability and education level. If you don’t like to just barely survive, why don’t you better yourself? Don’t make it difficult to employ people just because you think they deserve better. If the actually do, they’ll get it themselves.

“If you can justify uneducated labor earning $30 per hour…”

Why must we always use the most extreme example, as if it is the norm, to prove our points? Sounds kinda straw-man-y to me…

If you don’t like to just barely survive, why don’t you better yourself?

Millions of college graduates did exactly that. Bettered themselves with college degrees and hard work, only to find their jobs outsourced, done by H1-B’s, companies mooching off of non-paid internships, nobody wanting to pay for fresh-out-of-college learning curves, or R&D money gone *poof*. (Why spend money on R&D for tomorrow when you can pocket the profit today?)

And did I mention that “bettering yourself” costs upward of $100K?

GM’s problems were not just labor-related, they’ve also made many epically bad decisions over the past 30-40 years.

Don’t overlook their finance arms as well, namely GMAC (not sure what they’re called these days?)

“Don’t overlook their finance arms as well, namely GMAC (not sure what they’re called these days?)”

Ally Bank

Isn’t the Ford Focus built on a Mazda platform?

*Fusion, I meant.

At the time of design who had a controlling interest in Mazda?

Germany is kicking butt with its unionized manufacturing. They have one of those weird ‘trade surplus’ thingies. How could that possibly be, Bad Andy?

We were discussing quality…not a trade surplus. Would you like to comment on the quality or keep talking off point?

Andy, I thought we were discussing Unions? And Yes I love my German Car and Yes it costs a mint to keep on the road! But it is the BEST road car I have ever owned. Now my Acura was a great car too! Both of those cars are INNOVATIVE and they last long enough and are cool enough that enabled them to continue to sell to the Youth market. Whilst Ford and GM were making crud and that crud would not last long enough to make it to their children, hence no brand loyalty. I mean what kid would want a used Taurus vs a Civic or a VW Jetta, Gulf or TDI.

I will admit that the Germans “try” too much as most of the Cars have all kinds of gadgets that break or go bad and they cost money. But I have learned to cost engineer these things while driving a great long lasting automobile

1997 A8 that just turned 200K. Union Built, Union Innovation.

While I won’t argue the merits/detriment of unions, I can offer a counterpoint example, Greg. It’s as easy to call Ford/GM “crud” as it is to say Audi, etc have bad quality.

My examples are…I drove a ‘91 Ford Escort to 90k that had zero issues before I gave it up for a company car. (well, the reason I unloaded it - donated to local comm college - was that my ex-gf totaled it but that’s another story). That company car is a ‘98 Jeep Cherokee that now has 258k (non-remanufactured engine) miles on it and still going strong.

Point is, if you maintain most vehicles and treat them well, they’ll last a LONG time and even more so, if you “spend a mint” to do so. It ain’t just the foreign cars. My goal on this thing is 350-400k miles…

Sounds like many a corporate meetings.

“Sounds like many a corporate meetings. :lol:”

So true. Usually not to the tune of 38 hours per week though.

Indeed he was, Slim.

The private sector would collapse without the public sector.

If you doubt that, find a SINGLE country in this world that has a functioning private sector without a functioning public sector.

It’s a symbiotic relationship. The sooner we realize that, the better off we’ll be.

Sorry I missed your point earlier. Your point is a good one. Do corporations pay no taxes?

As corporations send jobs out of the country, then the proportion of government workers to private workers increases unless government workers are also let go. As government workers and private workers on government contracts are let go, the amount of money funneling into both private enterprises and government coffers also declines. Are we in a death spiral or will we find a new, lower equilibrium? I just don’t see the trend that reverses private sector outsourcing.

The private sector would collapse without the public sector.

Where have I claimed otherwise? I don’t see how this is a counter-argument to the points I’ve been making.

As corporations send jobs out of the country, then the proportion of government workers to private workers increases unless government workers are also let go.

That’s a good point to consider - some of the imbalance comes from outsourced jobs. One thing to note, though, is the jobs reports from ~5 years ago. All new jobs being created were in the housing sector and government. It’s true that the balance would shift simply due to private sector jobs going away, but governments at all levels have grown considerably.

Regardless, as commented elsewhere in today’s bucket, the bottom line is that the money is not there. We cannot afford our current governments at the size they are, with the “services” they provide, at the level of compensation they are currently at.

It is important to understand why we got here, but regardless of who is to blame, we are where we are, and it isn’t sustainable.

When I was a federal employee I knew very well the taxpayers were my boss. In fact, I always considered my Income Tax as a way to return some of that money to my bosses, and that which was left over my real income.

I remember when visual programming came out. The doomsters predicted it would put a lot of software people out of work, because now you don’t have to custom-make a GUI component. Contrarily, visual programming created MORE jobs in software!

The role of the government is to protect the health and safety of the public. You do NOT want to mix profit motive with protecting the public! Profit will win the day, every day. I see companies trying to cut corners on safety on almost a weekly basis, and many of my co-worker see it on an hourly basis.

The government bennies are there to buy neutrality and freedom from the profit motive.

Who is going to profit from nationalized healthcare, exactly? Who is going to profit from a single-payer system, if indeed that happens?

Government, of course.

If “government” cannot make a profit, then how can it “hire” employees? Extortion?

You do NOT want to mix profit motive with protecting the public!

I don’t believe I’ve argued for that here today, nor in any previous conversation on the subject.

If you re-read my posts, I think you’ll find that I’m simply saying that regardless of whatever perceived benefit government employees provide, their salaries+insurance+pensions must be supportable by the private sector. That’s where the funding for the government comes from.

Extortion?

Why yes, I think that’s exactly what it does. Or threat of force.

Comment by Am.sheeple
2011-02-18 07:09:42

“Anything given to them is something taken from me, the taxpayer. Without my consent. Do you not grasp that point?”
Yes , I “grasp” … you want them to ask your consent when your house will be on fire and and firefighters will wait till you sign your consent…

Congress and their union helpers should only be paid $1 per day.

If you are in the Capitol attempting to access the internet from a free wifi connection labeled “guest,” you cannot access the site defendwisconsin.org. The site has been used to provide updates on what is happening, where you can volunteer, and where supplies and goods are needed to support protesters….”

Not to worry. There are probably lots of people carrying laptops and netbooks with air cards. Not to mention the people with the smart phones.

One way or another, DefendWisconsin.org will be found!

There now jobs available for those who design and produce these robots, the software that runs them, and to configure them. In a pure labor-driven manufacturing environment these jobs didn’t exist.

Yes, some new jobs were created but many more jobs were lost than were gained.

Not always. Plenty of programers out there and plenty more that are imported every year. The number of jobs created is much smaller than the number of jobs lost thus continued downward pressure on wages.

This technology and outsourcing effect is likely what pushed gov to keep rates low for ever and blow bubbles. Deflation would have been unleashed and gov fear deflation.

Comment by drumminj
2011-02-22 08:46:34

The benefits of these efficiencies have not been shared with the general work force; they have all been captured by the business owners.

Not true. There now jobs available for those who design and produce these robots, the software that runs them, and to configure them. In a pure labor-driven manufacturing environment these jobs didn’t exist.

And these jobs pay more than the factory worker jobs because they require a higher skillset.

I have to agree with drumminj since this is the field I work in. But it is also true that it requires a lot more training and experience than old fashioned assembly work on a factory floor did thirty years ago ( I also did that kind of work when I was younger ). And a lot less workers.
During the recession and ensuing unemployment, it seemed to me that demand for engineers and technicians involved in automation remained high. For the last 15 years my employers have had difficulty finding qualified people, and I have definitely noticed a lack of young people entering this field.

I am old enough to remember watching teams of ditch diggers putting in sewer, water and gas lines for new houses. I was in elementary school at the time. Small builders couldn’t afford power excavators and bulldozers, and no one had yet thought to invent the heavy equipment rental business. Those ditch diggers ultimately lost their jobs.

When I started professional work we hand wrote engineering work orders, and looked up Western Electric part numbers from paper catalogs (the catalog binders occupied many feet of shelf space). A work order might be 50 or 100 pages altogether. Then we sent it to a typing pool where it took at least a few days to be typed. We got the typed version back and we had to check it for errors and omissions. Was every 8-character part number correct? Then back to typing again. Today, one engineer turns out such a document by him or herself in a day or two, using a template and on line catalogs with drag and drop capability. Where did the typing pool go? Where did the many thousands of long-distance operators go? Was the introduction of 10-digit Direct Distance Dialing a bad thing?

How far back should we go technologically to ensure that everyone has a real job? Because there are now too many people (just about everywhere) for the amount of work that needs to be done.

Since supply exceeds demand, prices (in this case wages) go down.

“How far back should we go technologically to ensure that everyone has a real job? Because there are now too many people (just about everywhere) for the amount of work that needs to be done…”

b…b…but Bill ~~ Soylent Green is people !

Yes, outsourcing and globalization are also responsible for the decimation of wages and benefits in the private sector, but IIRC, it was the unions who were saying we should “buy American” and who were warning us about globalization, decades ago.

If we had given the “globalizers” the finger, and continued to support our own labor here in the U.S., we would be far better off today.

But where are these robots produced? My guess is that most of them are produced overseas by non-American workers.

Perhaps, but that doesn’t disprove my point. The assertion that the only ones benefiting are the business owners isn’t accurate. That was my point. There are other jobs created as a result, and the people who hold those jobs are benefiting as well.

That is no assertion, but a fact.

American worker productivity has risen over the last 20 years while wages have remained stagnate or fallen for J6P.

Yes, you can Google it. The BLS and Census are good places to start.

That is no assertion, but a fact.

So you’re saying that there are no higher-level/paying/skilled jobs created due to the drive for automation?

I think your definition of the word “fact” and the meaning accepted by most (and the dictionary) are quite different.

If automation were not driving down costs, companies would not do it.

The high cost jobs being created plus the cost of the robots must be less than the cost of the workers they replace and also less than the cost of third world labor.

Each high cost worker/robot combination has to be more efficient. This transfer of labor to technology has been going on since man invented the spear point. The pace of change and the displacement it causes is increasing.

It is not the most intelligent that will succeed in this situation, it is the most flexible. A minimum level of intelligence will also be required that is probably higher than average, but that minimum will not be sufficient. It will require a combination of intelligence and flexibility. And this applies to organizations as well as to individuals.

So, what will everybody else do when the winners blame the whiners for their predicament? Will they take to the streets and demand their piece of the pie? Will they resort to piracy? Will they enslave the “winners”? Will they curl up in a ball and die?

drumminj, are you confident in your ability to stay at the top? In the blink of an eye, an accident or someone’s malice can reduce your capacity to adapt. Are you willing to throw the losers under the bus? Or do people have value beyond their capacity to produce?

The question I have struggled with is how to counsel my children. What can they do that is uniquely human, pays well, and is not subject to technological change? It may turn out that my poet does better in the long run than my web developer.

“If automation were not driving down costs, companies would not do it.”

I don’t know. When I was in the private sector I got put on a lot of projects that were going to lose money. Easily predictable. But the bosses had egos that needed to be massaged and that is what they wanted, so we did it.

Most robot mfgs that my customers use are Japanese, German, or Swiss.

drumminj, are you confident in your ability to stay at the top? In the blink of an eye, an accident or someone’s malice can reduce your capacity to adapt. Are you willing to throw the losers under the bus? Or do people have value beyond their capacity to produce?

I fail to see how this question flows from the conversation at hand. What does it have to do with me being on top? Where have I stated or implied that people have no value beyond their capability to produce?

In the game life there are losers. Period. There will always be. You can’t stop that. Perhaps I will be one of them one day, butI refuse to infringe on someone else’s rights to not be one of them.

If you want an equal system where no one can lose, that’s fine (I’d ask you not to try turn the US into this system). But it also means that no one can win. And once no one can win, there is little motivation for anyone to try.

People come to the US as the “land of opportunity”. With opportunity comes risk, and with that failure. I’ve taken risks and I’ve known that failure was a possibility. If I happened to suffer as a result of my decisions, I wouldn’t force those around me to make me not have to suffer the consequences. People who start business take risks. People who work for startups take risks. People who stay in the same place also take risks. In everything you do in life there are consequences, both positive and negative.

Are you suggesting there’s a means of removing the negative consequences from life, and keeping everything else the same?

“If you want an equal system where no one can lose, that’s fine (I’d ask you not to try turn the US into this system). But it also means that no one can win. And once no one can win, there is little motivation for anyone to try.”
“People come to the US as the “land of opportunity”. With opportunity comes risk, and with that failure.”
Yes we were the witness what happened in the “land of opportunity” lately, how your beloved “U.S. SYSTEM ” worked it’s way by bringing misery to millions of naive home buyers, how “risk taking” crooks, mortgage loan originators, realtors, banks, insurances companies without taking any risks stole billions of $$$ and got away with it. Yes, maybe poor, start up companies might succeed 1/10 , but winners are always those crooks who buy there way out by spending good share of their money for bribing the SYSTEM representatives. Maybe that’s what you mean by “land of opportunity” when banks are big to fail and tax payers become their guarantors?
Unfortunately many American shipple still believes honest American business practice, but when guy has million $$$ it is not hard to pay someone 10% to move his business “plan” ahead…
like German philosopher Schopenhauer would say “if it is hard to buy one with 100 mark 1000 mark will do it…
Yes, I used that trick two decade ago by “buying” a head of corporate company with just $500 cash, to put my lunch track in their company yard. That’s what do all the big companies Northrop’s, Microsoft’s … who sign contracts …and with government too… It is time for you to wake up guys…

my answer is yes to all of your questions.

my opinions are very anti-union, they certainly have no place in government. they add cost not quality.

i don’t understand why govt workers need protection from their bosses ( the people )

Have you ever attended a trade show in New York or Chicago as an exhibitor? That’s union nonsense at its worst. I couldn’t plug in my display without a union electrician checking it out…for a fee of course. Then the union laborers came to “assist” me in setting up. What a nightmare.

“my answer is yes to all of your questions.”

So how many usernames do you have now? And why?

Does this count?

I am the metal framing & drywall contractor for this and several other residential and commercial general contractors in SE Fl. I only take credit or blame for the interior ceilings and walls. With the exception of some heavy gauge exterior framing. To all of your questions my answer is yes. If any of my grammar is incorrect I apologize. I am just a drywall guy and I have been since 1983.

http://turtlebeachconstruction.com/gallery.html - 18k -

“Have you ever attended a trade show in New York or Chicago as an exhibitor? That’s union nonsense at its worst. I couldn’t plug in my display without a union electrician checking it out…for a fee of course. Then the union laborers came to “assist” me in setting up.”

Chicago lost a HUGE amount of convention business over this issue. IIRC, they recently relaxed the rules about how much union members need to “help” with that kind of stuff. It was chocking the convention centers and all the surrounding businesses.

No not it doesn’t count. We’re not talking about slapping up gyp board on shanties.

I am the metal framing & drywall contractor for this and several other residential and commercial general contractors in SE Fl. I only take credit or blame for the interior ceilings and walls. With the exception of some heavy gauge exterior framing. To all of your questions my answer is yes. If any of my grammar is incorrect I apologize. I am just a drywall guy and I have been since 1983.

And, jeff saturday, if I may say so myself, you’re quite good at what you do. Three cheers for your craftsmanship and attention to detail.

What about the groin vaults and the domes? How does your company slap up gyp board on those 50 ft. up on a 50,000 sq. ft. residence and a $750,000+ contract for interior framing, drywall, lath and plaster.

You know you are so smart and powerful I am surprised you have as much time as you do during the work week to on on this blog so much. Well my estimate is done so I am off to help a framer finish a radius cove so we can slap some gyp board on it next week. LOL

I suspect Chicago like most cities wants to strip as much wealth from out of towners as possible, ie I suspect the rule has union and City backing, just like taxing hotels and rental cars.

That being said, it is certainly bad when unions get too powerful. It’s also bad when there are no unions.

At this point in time unions are on the decline and toothless in many cases even when they exist. I think the rapid decline in the middle class is and will continue to be bad for me and this country. Thus my support at this point in time is toward unions or any other voice for the middle class. I want someone to point out the huge concenctration of wealth that is going on in this country and hopefully get people to understand the danger of this to every one of us.

At this point in time unions are on the decline and toothless in many cases even when they exist. I think the rapid decline in the middle class is and will continue to be bad for me and this country. Thus my support at this point in time is toward unions or any other voice for the middle class.

That’s why I do it too.

What about the groin vaults and the domes?

I’ve just seen two more reasons why the construction industry needs more women. We’ve gotta do something about that terminology!

Jeff…. you’re a gyp board and steel stud sub-contractor doing housing. Get real.

“I’ve just seen two more reasons why the construction industry needs more women.”

Actually Turtle Beach Construction and Shapiro Pertnoy Companies which is another GC we work for both have women who are at the top of the food chain in the bidding process, buying out of contracts and overseeing the projects. They are both very smart, tough and when problems arise more level headed than men I have dealt with in the same position. Not to mention they are not on blogs during the work day telling people how smart they are, how much they know and how stupid other people are.

“Jeff…. you’re a gyp board and steel stud sub-contractor doing housing. Get real.”

Yes exeter licenced in Palm Beach, Broward and Martin counties since 1991. And there is a 2 part test you have to take and pass. Business law and construction, but before you are allowed to take these tests you have to pass a background check, credit report (no foreclosures or bad unpaid debt of any kind) and be signed off by a state licenced GC for having a certain number of years which I can`t even remember as a supervisor in your field. We do housing, we also do and have done medical buildings, schools, build out commercial space and exterior structural metal. I started out by myself and have five guys that have been with me for 15 years or longer. The most we ever had working was 126, this week including me it was 7. Never missed a tax deposit and nobody besides me ever missed a paycheck.

But back to your original question.

“Do you sign construction contracts? Do you run a construction company? Have you ever had to mobilize manpower and materials to perform work quickly because the contract demands it? Have you ever experienced the nightmare of finding journeyman trades outside of calling the local?”

My journeyman trades are metal framers, drywall hangers and drywall finishers. But if you need electricians, plumbers, roofers, carpet installers, tile crews or cabinet installers etc. I can get them for you too. And my answer to all of your questions is yes.

Jeffrey my friend, You’re “drywall hangers” are a very long way from ever being journeyman by any definition and your little sub-contracting business has little to nothing to do with the rhythm of coordination of trades, utilization of manpower and resource loading, scheduling, etc. When your little business grows to the point where you are no longer a sub-contract gingerbread crew and you begin shopping pile work and caissons, throttling manpower for reinforcing installation because you can’t get RFI’s back from the engineer, casting 1200CY concrete in a day, coordinating installation of instrumentation and electrical installation under sub-contracts, developing coordination drawings that include structural, mechanical, process mechanical, instrumentation, electrical, HVAC and architectural disciplines AND getting them through the approval process, then you might have an idea what construction contract administration is about. And ALL of these tasks are done with direct assistance from….. yep… that’s right… UNIONS.

Stick with building shacks.

Jeffrey my friend, Your “drywall hangers” are a very long way from ever being journeyman by any definition and your little sub-contracting business has little to nothing to do with the rhythm of coordination of trades, utilization of manpower and resource loading, scheduling, etc. When your gypboard outfit grows to the point where you are no longer a sub-contract crew doing gingerbread work and you begin shopping pile work and caissons, throttling manpower for reinforcing installation because you can’t get RFI’s back from the engineer, casting 1200CY concrete in a day, coordinating installation of instrumentation and electrical installation under sub-contracts, developing coordination drawings that include structural, mechanical, process mechanical, instrumentation, electrical, HVAC and architectural disciplines AND getting them through the approval process, then you might have an idea what construction contract administration is about. And ALL of these tasks are done with direct assistance from….. yep… that’s right… UNIONS.

Stick with slapping up gypboard.

Wow exeter

You are a powerful guy! You can`t get Request For Information back from the engineer? I remember you saying you worked for an engineer. Pouring 1200 cubic yards in a day. What are you using to place it? Don`t worry, you will have time to research it. I also remember you saying some kind of govt. cheese you were receiving was “schweet” I also remember you saying other things about who you lived with and what you lost being “gut wrenching” but not wanting to hurt anyone’s feelings I won`t mention it here. And I am still surprised a man of your stature, knowledge and power has time to be screwing around on this blog or even concerned about house prices. I would think a powerhouse like you would command such a tremendous salary you would own a couple of homes. Because if you are doing everything you say and are the driving force behind a company that is doing that kind of production I would think you would be knocking down at least $250k a year.

By the way, where are all these projects you are “casting” 1200 yards of concrete a day obviously on a regular basis? The economy must be booming there. Oh well, I have to go to work because I just “Stick with slapping up gypboard.” Have a nice day “developing coordination drawings”.

That’s right… run from it.

“and your little sub-contracting business has little to nothing to do with the rhythm of coordination of trades, utilization of manpower and resource loading, scheduling, etc.”

Thanks exeter

The next weekly job site meeting I am required to attend as per “contract” with the HVAC, electrical, plumbing, window, etc. contractors. of which I have attended 100`s on jobs from 6 story medical buildings to 50,000 sq. ft. “gingerbread” homes. I will tell them I don`t have to show, exeter said so. I don`t care when your crane is sheduled to fly material, I will get it there when it gets there. I don`t care if your electrician is supposed to start on the 15th, I can`t get the 25 metal framers you need. Tell the Fire Marshall he can kiss my… I am busy on Thusday at 2 PM.

I have little to nothing to do with the rhythm of coordination of trades, utilization of manpower and resource loading, scheduling, etc.

exeter says so.

You go Gingerbread.

Bahahahaha - government schools and public union - what a great combination. I can’t imagine how to better to educate our children.

Two-Thirds of Wisconsin Public-School 8th Graders Can’t Read Proficiently

(CNSNews.com) - Two-thirds of the eighth graders in Wisconsin public schools cannot read proficiently according to the U.S. Department of Education, despite the fact that Wisconsin spends more per pupil in its public schools than any other state in the Midwest.

In the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered by the U.S. Department of Education in 2009—the latest year available—only 32 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a “proficient” rating while another 2 percent earned an “advanced” rating. The other 66 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below “proficient,” including 44 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 22 percent who earned a rating of “below basic.”

The test also showed that the reading abilities of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders had not improved at all between 1998 and 2009 despite a significant inflation-adjusted increase in the amount of money Wisconsin public schools spent per pupil each year.

…. meanwhile, the ham and egger hires a couple illegals to roll out tar paper on the shanty.

2banana,

How much of that is due to demographics?

Realize that public schools have to educate all of the kids that nobody else will take. You know, the transients, drug addicts’ kids, ESL kids, developmentally disabled kids, etc.

The private schools I know all require I.Q./testing to get in. Once they’ve screened for those who are likely to succeed academically, they further screen for behavior problems.

If any low-performing or kids with behavior problems slip through, the private schools are expeditious about kicking them out. Guess where the kids go then? That’s right…to the public schools.

I’ll bet this has **nothing to do** with the variance in test scores, right?

Wel 2bananal ,

Wisconsin union teachers must be doing something right but then of course that CNSNews.com bunch aren’t the sharpest tacks in the gop ‘carpet baggers’s box.

Top SAT State Scores include Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Missouri. These States primarily have their students take the ACT test so their numbers may not be representative of the entire state.

The Worst States for SAT Scores include Maine, Hawaii, South Carolina, Georgia and New York. DC is also very low.
Here is the ranking of SAT Scores by State List:

2009 State Sat Scores

1 Iowa 3% 610 615 588 1813
2 Wisconsin 5% 594 608 582 1784
3 Minnesota 7% 595 609 578 1782
4 Missouri 5% 595 600 584 1779
5 Illinois 6% 588 604 583 1775
6 Michigan 5% 584 603 575 1762
7 South Dakota 3% 589 600 569 1758
8 Nebraska 4% 587 594 572 1753
9 North Dakota 3% 590 593 566 1749
10 Kansas 7% 581 589 564 1734

http://tinyurl.com/4nv2ofl

Why do all these Canadians come to the US for operations? its never the other way around.

Why do all these Canadians come to the US for operations? its never the other way around.

Did you hear that on Rush or Beck or from some high school dropout Tea Party person? Here’s the real deal. A very few Canadians come to America because we do lead the world in medical areas and have some superstar doctors. BUT, on the whole, Canadians think the US health care system is one big fat sick joke. Check these facts that make Rush wanna take painkillers:

A 2009 Harris/Decima poll found 82% of Canadians preferred their healthcare system to the one in the United States, more than ten times as many as the 8% stating a preference for a US-style health care system for Canada[7] while a Strategic Counsel survey in 2008 found 91% of Canadians preferring their healthcare system to that of the U.S.[8][9] In the same poll, when asked “overall the Canadian health care system was performing very well, fairly well, not very well or not at all?” 70% of Canadians rated their system as working either “well” or “very well”.[citation needed] A 2003 Gallup poll found only 25% of Americans are either “very” or “somewhat” satisfied with “the availability of affordable healthcare in the nation,” versus 50% of those in the UK and 57% of Canadians. Those “very dissatisfied” made up 44% of Americans, 25% of respondents of Britons, and 17% of Canadians.[10] wiki

Because being rich doesn’t get you special treatment in Canada for procedures that are not medically urgent. In Canada, is it being really sick that gets you to the front of the line. In the US, it is money.

we do lead the world in medical areas

I meant to say we do lead the world in SOME medical areas.

If the U.S. is so great, why did Steve Jobs go to Switzerland for treatment? Why did Farrah Fawcett go to Germany for treatment. There are many other examples about rich people in the U.S. going to “socialist” countries for medical care. I’ll bet it’s because they have such sub-standard care, right?

Rio/Polly

Depends on how sick you are = front of the line AND if your doctor has any unused operations he can still do in that billing year (generally yes).

We occasionally hear about people “having to go to the USA” for treatment not offered here, and yes the doctors do seem to have celebrity status that they go to. The few times it happens gets a lot of attention.

I don’t understand how such a great nation like the USA can be soooo backward in it’s healthcare delivery system.

In my little burb our city workers do a fine job of street maintenance and other tasks.

Which reminds me: Tomorrow is trash pickup day in the nabe. And, call the media! I have trash and recycling to put out! (This only happens about once ever four to six weeks at the Arizona Slim Ranch.)

Any-hoo, whilst out, if I see the trash/recycle pickup guys come by, I give ‘em a big smile and a wave. It’s the neighborly thing to do, especially if you’re dealing those who help to keep this place neat and tidy.

Yes, you are exactly right, measton.

You’re probably right. Paying people to do nothing but take away your constitutional rights is grand.

“Paying people to do nothing but take away your constitutional rights is grand.”

Do we have a constitutional right not to have a license plate on a car?

Actually I’d like to see the constitutional authority to tax travel. It doesn’t exist…but you’d probably like to make it exist wouldn’t you?

You are confusing government with law. Is a Jury government? Maybe… but I don’t think that’s the nuanced argument that Bad Andy is doing a horrible job explaining.

There have existed numerous “non-governemental” forms of law since the beginning of time; the most basic being the law of evolution, and survival of the fittest. Yes, we can and have made improvements to these laws, and decided that a police force that answers to the people is in our interest.

I think the mistake we make is thinking that “government” needs to be a centralized entity far removed from our daily lives and control. Instead, some think we need an authority figure that defines the rules we must follow because we are incapable of (due to stupidity or malfeasance ) governing ourselves.

I have decided to stop all (my) bickering over whether the action a state or federal government entity took is bad or good. Instead, I reject the premise. For the majority of cases, my answer will continue to be that these decisions should be moved back to the county and city level (along with the tax revenues), and the citizens there can live with it as they chose. State of Wisconsin (or California, or any of the other 50 states) should have no say in what is basically a county board of education matter. Instead of sending tax revenues to the state for redistribution, the power and property tax should be returned to the county to decide these matters.

my answer will continue to be that these decisions should be moved back to the county and city level (along with the tax revenues), and the citizens there can live with it as they chose.

+1

Yes, you are doing a much better job than I am of explaining. Rage has gotten in the way of my thought process.

I think the mistake we make is thinking that “government” needs to be a centralized entity far removed from our daily lives and control. Instead, some think we need an authority figure that defines the rules we must follow because we are incapable of (due to stupidity or malfeasance ) governing ourselves.

Kill the “instead” I was trying to say “For some reason”

I’m not anti-government as much as I am anti-stupidity. Much of what we’ve handed off to county, state, and federal government either didn’t need to be handed off, or better yet didn’t need to regulated at all.

I believe this concept is one of (or the) central points in the Federalist papers

Again your making a big leap.
No one is supporting those actions.

What entity do you suggest fix the problem?
What entity has the power to fix the problem if not gov.

The problem isn’t gov it’s that the elite have concentrated wealth and political power to the point that they are controlling gov.

The wife’s contract spells out for you that sick time is sick time and not personal time. There’s a separate personal time bank that grows at a MUCH slower rate.

Staying out of work to protest conditions means you don’t want your job. Just quit and go someplace else.

Staying out of work to protest conditions means you don’t want your job.

You have to think harder when it’s written this way.

We live in a free society. If you don’t like working conditions where you are, by all means get a new job.

“We live in a free society. If you don’t like working conditions where you are, by all means get a new job.”

Kind of hard to do when just about every employer expects unpaid overtime from you.

Kind of hard to do when just about every employer expects unpaid overtime from you.

So work for the ones who don’t.

I don’t understand where people get the mentality that everything should be “easy”. Yes, if you want to protest or change things, you might just have to make a sacrifice. To say “I can’t leave my horrible job because it might be hard to find a new one” doesn’t mean you don’t have the freedom to improve your situation. It just means you’re unwilling to take the risk to try to change things.

I’m sure you’ve never had to run a business. You don’t want to come to work? You don’t think it’s fair here? Hit the road jack! We’re in a dreadful recession/depression. I’ll find two more just like you with less lip to take your place. Tell me how starvation treats you.

I’m sure you’ve never had to run a business.

Ran it and owned it. I’d bet bet I ran it better than you do yours. You don’t seem to reason past biases very well. It was fun. Self employed here in Brazil too.

Self employed is different than employer.

Rio has had employees in the past Andy. Don’t know about his current gig in Brazil.

You don’t think it’s fair here? Hit the road jack! We’re in a dreadful recession/depression. I’ll find two more just like you with less lip to take your place. Tell me how starvation treats you.

At some point with falling wages and inflation people may be close to starving even with a job. That’s what we’ll have to do to compete with China. You can look forward to theft and violence a the work place as this occurs.

Self employed is different than employer.

I had employees for 15 years. I’m self employed now and was too before I was an employer. I know the difference.

Nothing quite like the smugness of the tyranny of the majority.

Union means one-ness, unity, solidarity. Do you really think a union would ever agree to sow divisions among its membership by allowing the ranking of individuals along a continuum of productivity or competence?

That particular “renegotiation” would be non-negotiable.

What do you mean “allow”? If you really want it, demand it. The union may have the good of the overall workforce to protect, but the government entity has their jobs.

Look, Ronald Reagan took on the federal union and won. Pensions got cut in half. Federal workers don’t get to game the system by retiring after three years with lots of overtime because overtime isn’t counted in the retirement calculation. There were a lot of other reforms. The Wisconsin union has already given in on all the major financial concessions. Getting rid of collective bargaining, is basically saying, “we plan to do a lot of really bad stuff to you very soon and we don’t want you to be able to do anything about it.” Wouldn’t you expect them to fight that sort of open ended threat?

As for teachers, put up a proposal for teacher testing that doesn’t leave teachers losing pay because their kids are too hungry to pay attention in class, and you will get something. Maybe not exactly what you want, but something. It takes work. If your politicians won’t do the work because they are pandering to the union, go into a voting booth and fire the politician.

“Then vote in a politician who will renegotiate the contract so bad teachers can be fired. ”

That’s what has happened in Wisconsin, but the democrats fled the state to subvert the legislative process that would make that change possible.

Now what?

Polly,
Collective bargaining is money, nothing more. If the teachers don’t want to give to the union, the union looses it’s financial clout
and the Bosses suffer. This whole thing is about the Bosses, not the teachers. Without
collective bargaining, the teachers will not
lose a thing.

That’s what has happened in Wisconsin, but the democrats fled the state to subvert the legislative process that would make that change possible.

exactly.

Now the govenor who won the election but still can’t pass any legislation without a quorum has to deal with the fact that his proposal is so out of line that enough legislators to prevent a quorum were willing to leave the state to block it. They would not have even dreamed of doing it just for the financial concessions.

Look, eliminating collective bargaining on everything except salaries isn’t really negotiating. It isn’t even saying play the game my way or I’ll take my ball and go home. It is saying I’ve decided to cancel all the games and declare myself the winner.

I mentioned this yesterday, but I’ll repeat it here. When one of the governors political allies was asked why eliminating collective bargaining was so important when the union had already agreed to all the financial demands, he said they needed flexibility in the future to change things like “safety.” That is right, they need to eliminate collective bargaining so the union can’t do anything if they decide to change the jobs in a way that makes them more of a threat to life and health of the workers. Why not just lock ‘em up in the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory and call it a day?

That’s what has happened in Wisconsin, but the democrats fled the state to subvert the legislative process that would make that change possible.

Isn’t it cool?!

It’s going to be messy and probably not turn out exactly like anyone really wanted, but agree with Polly that the only way to change this stuff is elect people that will change it. That is how a democracy works. Or doesn’t work as the case may be. So unless anyone has a better form of government to suggest, our job as citizens is to take a good look at who we’re electing to represent us. If we don’t feel as though they’re representing us the way we’d like them to, protesting and all that is fine and great, but you’d better also vote for someone who will better represent you when the time comes. Hint: they don’t have to be from one of the 2 major parties!

To all the right wingers

If it’s all about the money and not about politics in Wi, then why did Walker exempt the State Troopers Union. Is it because they supported him during the election.

This is taking political office and smashing anyone that didn’t support you. Next up will be firing state workers who don’t campaign for you.

For sure. Don’t alienate the people that guard you.

Comment by measton
2011-02-22 11:08:51
To all the right wingers

This is taking political office and smashing anyone that didn’t support you. Next up will be firing state workers who don’t campaign for you.
————–

My guess is that the state troopers are excluded because he needs somebody to enforce the law when all hell breaks loose.

Imagine what would happen if all law enforcement were on the “other” side when the SHTF. Walker would be no different than the dictators being run out of town in the ME.

Wisconsin just passed a tax break which is responsible for over 2/3’s of the deficit they are facing.

if your refering to corporate tax breaks your out of your friggin mind. The money that pays for the lazy union public sector unions is from private enterprise. Wisconsin and the whole Mid west is in competition with other states and other countries for the mfg companies. Remember Black& Decker…Mexico…..Remember Briggs & Stratton…Mexico….GM Janesville Gone!

You have to have a thriving private sector to pay for public funding because public employess produce exactly $0 in wealth. Raise your corporate tax but then dont ask the rest of the country to pay for all your poor and homeless.

if your refering to corporate tax breaks your out of your friggin mind. The money that pays for the lazy union public sector unions is from private enterprise. Wisconsin and the whole Mid west is in competition with other states and other countries for the mfg companies. Remember Black& Decker…Mexico…..Remember Briggs & Stratton…Mexico….GM Janesville Gone!

and so goes teh race to teh bottom for labor even your baabaabooie.

I mean tax breaks aren’t going to make up for slave wages are they. For that I think you need a trade policy.

Saw a chart the other day. Federal income tax collected from 1965 to present. It grew slowly but steadily up to 2000. Had it continued to grow ther would be collecting another trillion per year, but instead it has been stagnant (while we started two expensive wars).

Then lets tax the hell out of the rich, who are raking it in as you point out, and pay down the debt that’s causing the problem.

both the kleptocratic rich and the greedy public unions have over reached through there coercion of the ruling elite.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-02-22 10:18:22
Then lets tax the hell out of the rich, who are raking it in as you point out, and pay down the debt that’s causing the problem.
——————

+a trillion

“I think you mean excoriate”

No, I meant expropriate. Expropriate means to deprive of possession. People wish to deprive government workers of the pensions they possess.

I used it to point out the irony that those calling for the expropriation are those that otherwise claim to be most respectful of property rights, and the most fearful of government expropriation of their own property. And the most vocal about the sanctity of contract law.

(If I go out of my way to _emphasize_ a word, I try to make sure I’m using it correctly. )

I wish I could get into a full explanation of the limits of securities law here, Griz. I really do. But I can’t. Too long and too complicated, but it basically comes down to this: you can sell anything to a bond or stock purchaser, no matter how worthless, if you disclose how bad it is to them. Well, in most cases, they did disclose how bad the stuff was. Not in all cases and that is what the successful law suits will hinge on, but in most cases they did - because the people who buy this stuff don’t read the disclosures. They don’t. And even if they do, they don’t believe that when someone says “this could fail” (in much more obscure, technical language) that they really mean it.

As for the loans themselves, there are some state banking regulations involved, but do people really read those huge disclosures? Do they demand to take the 247 page document home and let a $150 an hour attorney review every word and expain it to them before they sign it? Do they question what they are being told when someone says not to worry about the reset because they will be able to refinance by then? No, of course they don’t, because the rate might change or the bank might change its mind in the days it would take to do that and they are just so excited to get the loan.

And the bankers have NO legal responsibility to “the system.” They don’t. They never have and they never will. In the old days, they felt some responsibility to the system, because they wanted to keep playing in it, but too big to fail changed that. Plus executive compensation culture. In my executive comepensation class, the professor told us that our responsibility was to make sure that the “goals” that the exec had to fulfill to get his full bonus were impossible to miss. Impossible. He did not act as if this were anything that should be that hard to accomplish.

Madoff just lied. He said he was making is money doing X and he never did X at all. Not even the tiniest little bit.

The other difference is the number of people involved. Madoff’s scheme had a bunch of people around the perifery that should have known what he was doing (and many of them certainly knew he wasn’t doing what he claimed), but at the core it probably involved no more than 10 to 20 people (that is a guess, but an informed one). The bubble involved 10s of thousands of people just in the financial part of it (not the house building/furnishing part). Maybe 100s of thousands. Assigning legal blame in that circumstance is nearly impossible. And as hard as that is, winning in court against people who can spend as much money as it takes defending themselves is orders of magnitude harder.

And it is really fun to call people on it. As in, “Are you worried that I am going to forget my own name? You keep repeating it.”

“Oh it’s loaded with something, alright. When I took a residential sales class on “mirroring” a person, it surely came in handy to understand what makes a top producer. It’s an acting job. Caveat Emptor.”

You really need to expound on this one. Please explain.

exeter
Just got in from home shopping (omfg) and I’ll answer you in the morning. I’m drained.

If you send in the keys, you lose nothing (unless you put down a hefty down payment).

People keep thinking that they are losing something, but most of them have been living for free for so long, that they’ve more than made up any money they’ve spent on mortgage payments, and often whatever they used as a down payment.

Those who put nothing down, or who HELOC’d or cashed-out, are the WINNERS!

It’s the lenders who are losing something.

Pardon me. I believe that is possible (though very unlikely) in the military. Where else?

I was wondering what the big deal was. These guys were 18.

Show me how a man can go to prison for having sex with a consenting 18 year old woman. I dare you.

If he knowingly has HIV/AIDS and doesn’t disclose it.

What do I win???

I think you are on to something; it is good that the market is taking years to correct, as those who are willing and able to make larger-than-average property tax contributions in exchange for the opportunity to become house-proud owners
are thereby encouraged to step forward and reveal their preference.

Yep, a controlled colapse serves the PTB well, but not so well for us waiting to buy crowd.

Don’t forget giving no-bid contracts to their dear friends and contributors who bought and paid for the election.

Also funny how the corporate owned MSM has done a bang up job of burying any stories about the no bid contract part of the bill. Its like it’s not even there.

The billionaires have won. They own us, lock, stock and barrel.

“The billionaires have won. They own us, lock, stock and barrel.”

And the $20k/yr part time administrative aide at the town hall is responsible for the economic collapse.

Also funny how the corporate owned MSM has done a bang up job of burying any stories about the no bid contract part of the bill. Its like it’s not even there.

This is huge. I thought my search engine might be having a hard time finding that story on MSM because I’m in Brazil.

IT’S NOT ON MSM PEOPLE! That is a story in itself.

“IT’S NOT ON MSM PEOPLE! That is a story in itself.”

My wife is taking the kids to to German consulate today to claim their German citizenship and passports. We’ve written off the USA and are beginning to investigate emmigration options.

When the SHTF in the USA we will learn just how unwelcome we are in other countries.

In Colorado
I wish you guys luck, and don’t blame you for not wanting to be on this Titanic, as it sinks.

Wow, are you serious, In Colorado?

We’ve thought about doing the same thing, but not sure any other part of the world is any better.

The whole global economy is teetering on the edge of a cliff, IMHO.

yeah - because before we had public unions in America we had no roads, no military, no schools, etc.

what a load.

For too many of the brainwashed - they think if we just reined in public unions on some issues (like make them pay for their own pensions and collect their own union dues) America would somehow just stop working.

In reality, it would a huge improvement for everyone - even the public union goons.

You’re not much on facts are you NickBananaRepublic?

National Airports-occurred post-union formation
Interstate Highway System-occurred post-unionization
National Education Standards-occurred post-unionization
EPA, water/wastewater-occurred post-unionization

For too many of the brainwashed - they think if we just reigned in public unions on some issues (like make them pay for their own pensions and collect their own union dues) America’s problems would evaporate.

PS- I corrected “reigned” in for you.

Actually, it’s “rein in” as in using the reins to hold back a horse.

Unionized ex-English teacher here.

I think most of that was attributable to the medieval warming period which made more areas of Europe fertile under primitive farming techniques. Reasonable food will go a long way to contributing to health even without great health care. However, if you look at the morbidity tables, there is an obvious inflection point and it occurs around the time that people figured out they had to keep the sewage away from the water. Invention of antibiotics is barely a blip on the graphs.

“I think the 50% or 60% is some people’s marginal tax rate (on their last dollar of income), not their total tax take.”

I think hes adding federal and state income tax, payroll tax, along with property, sales and “hidden taxes” (mostly in utilities).

The 50-60% number seems high to me. When I add all of my taxes up, its about 20-25% of my income. Of course I live in low tax Colorado and have 3 dependents.

You have seen our new shiny military haven’t you.
You do realize that with the advent of new technologies and a growing population you require more gov, to say nothing of new financial instruments.

In my neck of the woods public schools get $7000 per year. Non sectarian private schools cost much more.

I just don’t understand why we are attacking wages of teachers
yet the incomes of CEO’s and Wall Street money changers or excessive Corporation profits are OK .

This is America, where worker bees are scum and Corporations are God!

Because there are too many 2bananas in this world who kiss the feet of the elite that pound them.

Give me more master!

I just don’t understand why we are attacking wages of teachers
yet the incomes of CEO’s and Wall Street money changers or excessive Corporation profits are OK .

Because you’re mis-framing the problem.

This isn’t about CEOs at all. A CEO’s pay comes from the company’s income, which presumably is given willingly by customers (ignore TARP for a moment, as we’re all against that except for Joey, I think).

Teachers and other public employees are paid from money taken, by force, from taxpayers. I can’t opt out of that. I don’t get to vote on their compensation. I wasn’t a party to the negotiations with the union. If the government over commits, rather than go out of business (like a private enterprise would), more of my money (my time and labor) is taken from me.

Do you guys really not see the difference here? Legitimately? It’s a freakin echo chamber in here with y’all making the same comparison, and I have a hard time accepting that you guys don’t see the difference between money willingly given by a customer and money taken by force/threat of imprisonment.

This is America, where worker bees are scum and Corporations are God!

Because there are too many 2bananas in this world who kiss the feet of the elite that pound them.

Man, I think it’s time to start playing “logical fallacy bingo!” in the bitch bucket. I’d suggest a drinking game, but I don’t want to drink myself to death in the first 10 comments.

“Teachers and other public employees are paid from money taken, by force, from taxpayers.”

And of course you conveniently fail to mention the massive budget busting, treasury robbing tax breaks that created federal and state deficits.

Why is that?

drumminj …..You act like prices aren’t fixed by Corporations
in which the consumer isn’t trapped by what they must pay .
You ask me to ignore TARP ,ignore Corporations under
funding pension plans ,Wall Street and their contrived Ponzi schemes ,ignore favorable taxes for the upper crust , outsourcing and out-manufacturing ,unfair trade balances and
tariffs ,Health care monopolies demanding a high profit
margin at the expense of everyone ,and you now want me to ignore CEO wages that have created short term motives of CEO along with the betrayal of the American work force ,along with a pump up and dump stock mentality of the CEO’s rather than a long term gain motive .

Why attack any worker group when the sins of the private sector have not been addressed . Its just transferring the loss
to workers while letting Corporate America go along their merry way making record profits and Wall Street with all their casinos .

Corporate America/Wall Street needs to pay back their ill-gotten gains ,which in part is responsible for the lack of money for the government worker ,or the private sector worker .

You can’t separate one sector of the economy and say it has nothing to do with other sectors of the economy . All sectors of the economy tie into each other . For example ,the health care costs are cracking the back of every sector of the economy . These high costs make the Corporations even want to dump American workers even more .

All the different systems type into each other .

To even suggest that the American worker has any power when wage slave monopolies are used against them is acting like this isn’t a factor that is creating unemployment ,lower wages and reduced benefits .

The tax base has been creamed by Corporation America/Wall Street and this directly affects the ability to pay government workers
that are needed for a functional society .

Why is that?

Because it’s completely irrelevant to my point.

But keep go ahead and keep attacking an argument I’ve never made.

@Housing Wizard:

I must say I struggle to see how your rant relates to what I’ve been saying. Perhaps we’re talking about different subjects?

You act like prices aren’t fixed by Corporations
in which the consumer isn’t trapped by what they must pay .

Outside of health insurance (thanks Congress and Pres Obama), individuals are not compelled to buy any product. Here’s where freedom of choice comes in. I’m not making any statements about fixed prices, or how that might affect the consumer.

You ask me to ignore TARP ,ignore Corporations under
funding pension plans ,Wall Street and their contrived Ponzi schemes ,ignore favorable taxes for the upper crust , outsourcing and out-manufacturing ,unfair trade balances and
tariffs ,Health care monopolies demanding a high profit
margin at the expense of everyone ,and you now want me to ignore CEO wages that have created short term motives of CEO along with the betrayal of the American work force ,along with a pump up and dump stock mentality of the CEO’s rather than a long term gain motive .

Really not sure where you get this. I simply said to ignore TARP in the context of looking at where the revenue for corporations come from.

Why attack any worker group when the sins of the private sector have not been addressed

I’m not attacking anyone. I’m saying that I’m tired of having ever increasing amounts of my money taken to fund government and all of it’s projects. If teachers (or firefighters, or IRS agents) can get money from elsewhere in the budget, they’re welcome to get more money, or cushier retirements. Instead, every single freakin year taxes go up, new debt is issued, and the taxpayer gets squeezed more and more.

Corporate America/Wall Street needs to pay back their ill-gotten gains

I don’t disagree, if fraud or collusion is proven. I certainly think TARP shouldn’t have happened, and I think the Fed should be abolished. No disagreement here.

You can’t separate one sector of the economy and say it has nothing to do with other sectors of the economy

I’ve never said the public sector has nothing to do with the private sector. Re-read my posts. I simply said that the issue of what you perceive as exorbitantly high CEO salaries is fundamentally different from my tax burden and the public sector pay and benefits it funds.

To even suggest that the American worker has any power when wage slave monopolies are used against them

What is a “wage slave monopoly”? Every american worker has plenty of power. They’re just to frickin spoiled to actually use it. Everyone wants a “sure thing”. No one wants to be the one to sacrifice to make a difference and effect change.

American consumers have the same power, yet they choose not to use it either. People complain about the lack of good paying jobs and benefits, yet they shop at WalMart, and always shop for the lowest price they can find. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for that argument. People lack principles. They’re selfish and short-sighted.

and this directly affects the ability to pay government workers

Exactly. The money isn’t there. So government must shrink, or public employee compensation must be reduced.

that are needed for a functional society

I’ll agree that some number of public employees are necessary for a functional society. I would argue we’re well beyond that threshold by several orders of magnitude.

drumminj …You can’t attack one set of inequities without looking at them all . In part the reason why public pensions
are unsustainable is because of what happened with the
Health Care monopolies . Our entire systems ,private or public ,have been undermined by the real estate Ponzi scheme ,and
our tax based has been shattered by Globalism .

It’s just going to be one continual taking from the bee-hive ,public or private ,while entire sectors of economy get off
free with even more profits and power given to them .

You don’t solve problems by bailing out one sector and making another sector pay for it .

Look ,all sectors were corrupted and need correction ,but my point is I can’t see doing it to one sector like the public workers while letting other sectors off the hook ,thats all .
This is not the way you solve the problems by picking and choosing who wins and who will lose . Eventually the weight of the health care industry will crash ,but that will be because it wasn’t dealt with and it will do a lot of damage in the mean time . The problem started with them not dealing with the real estate Ponzi scheme and bailing them out and propping them up instead . The problem is not addressing the Globalism that shattered our long term systems . Sure
some of the Unions went to far and they need adjustment,but some of this adjustment is a over reaction
to other sectors of the economy not being corrected .

You don’t seem to resent them taking trillions (yes trillions ) to bail out
the money changers with their Ponzi schemes on the taxpayers dime ,but you resent them paying some good benefits to teachers on the taxpayers dime .

I’m to tired right now to think but I wouldn’t mind having this discussion at a later point . It’s just the way they are going about all the problems is kick it down the road until it becomes a crisis and than scream fire .

Thank you, Wiz.

You don’t seem to resent them taking trillions (yes trillions ) to bail out
the money changers with their Ponzi schemes on the taxpayers dime ,but you resent them paying some good benefits to teachers on the taxpayers dime .

I absolutely do resent it. As I said above, I was against TARP and am for abolishing the FED.

Fixing healthcare, or the housing bubble, or wall street’s influence on the federal government wouldn’t do anything to actually shrink the budget of government at any level. My taxes aren’t high because health care is expensive. Nor because of the housing bubble. They’re high because the government does and spends way too much, including public employee compensation.

My sister does a lot of work over the summer. She might not teach class, but she isn’t on vacation either.

My sister does a lot of work over the summer. She might not teach class, but she isn’t on vacation either.

Same thing with my mother. She was forever taking this, that, and the other professional development class.

Her reason for doing so was to move up the pay scale. She had to help pay for young Slim’s college tuition. And then, after I graduated, Dad decided to quit his job and go into business for himself. So, guess who got to support that venture.

Thanks. Will poke around out there. If the shadow inventory is that large it seems like I should be able to find specific examples of it in my local market relatively easily. Every time I find one where the NOD has recently been recorded I add it to my list to watch. So far, all have shown up on the MLS shortly after the trustee sale was scheduled to happen.

It will take time to familiarize yourself with the shadow inventory. I’ve seen shacks status’ed as “sold” only to reappear a year later as new listing. This occurs with at least half of their listings.