The Beginning Of The End For The McMansion?
The Time Herald Record in New York reports on an end to a trend that accompanied the housing bubble. “Builders who came through local planning boards carrying plans for a dozen 3,500-square-foot homes and visions of $700,000 price tags are chopping hundreds of feet off those homes and tens or even hundreds of thousands off their price tags.”
“‘We find ourselves doing homes that I never would have thought of two years ago,’ said Dan Fini, a local builder who just began work on an eight-lot subdivision in Hamptonburgh. Fini had banked on building homes 3,200 square feet or larger. Now, he’s planning to keep those homes under 3,000 square feet, and the prices below half a million.”
“Fini is not alone, and that, it turns out, is one of the reasons he’s lowering prices. In Orange County, there are a lot of 3,000-square-foot homes for sale. ‘There’s a lot of them sitting,’ said Frank Nutt Jr., another local builder. Nutt is reducing the sizes and prices of homes he’s building in Montgomery and Goshen.”
“It’s a phenomenon that’s taking hold across Orange County and in some of the country’s hottest housing markets. ‘I’ve seen it in Los Angeles. I’ve seen it in Las Vegas,” said John McIlwain, at the Urban Land Institute. ‘We’re at a turning point in our housing, where the median size of the home is going to start declining, and that would be the first time in a little over 20 years that that’s happened.’”
“The median size of new homes has steadily increased over the past two decades, according to the National Association of Home Builders. In 1987, the mid-sized new home was 1,755 square feet. By 2004, it was 22 percent larger at 2,140 square feet. Now, the tide might be turning, in part because homes have gotten too expensive for prospective buyers.”
“Single-family home sales in Orange County declined slightly last year, the first time that’s happened since 1990. The first three months of 2006 were even slower than the first quarter of 2005. Now, it’s the builders’ turn to give a little. To begin with, their profit margins are shrinking. Nutt said he’ll be happy to make $40,000 apiece on his next few houses, about half the profit of a year or two ago.”
“Builders are also cutting out some amenities. The two-story entryway, a major selling point just a couple of years ago, has fallen out of favor because it wastes space and pumps up heating and cooling bills. ‘It’s a snowball effect. It’s not just the cost of a house. It’s the taxes. It’s the upkeep,’ said (realtor) Theresa Budich.”
“Nutt has reduced the starting size of the homes to about 2,100 square feet, from 2,400 or 2,500 square feet. Prices will start at $390,000, down from $430,000. A $40,000 price cut translates to a $250 per month reduction in the buyer’s mortgage payment.”
“The tax bill on a 2,100-square-foot home should run about $2,000 less per year than the bill for a 2,500-footer, Nutt estimated. That’s another $166 a month.”
“The builder has to sacrifice some profit to sell at $390,000 instead of $450,000, Nutt said, but it’s worth it. ‘It’s either that,’ he said, ‘or you build a $450,000 house and you might sit on it for awhile.’”
IMO the bigger house trend was in part a side effect of the housing bubble. After all, if a 2000 sq ft house went up X amount, a 3000 sq ft home went up more. Same with remodeling. These smaller builders, with their instant 50% cut in profits, may also undercut the public firms.
Market forces weed out decadence.
Over ornamentation is the first sign of impending extinction.
Nice, humans like to think that evolutionary biology doesn’t affect us.
The preconception makes the results all the more devastating.
Good riddance to the 2 story entryway- fit for Kings and Queens! does this mean we can go back to being just plain old average people?
I hear you. I hate those things….they make people with no taste believe that they actually have some.
An architect once described McMansions as giant Victorian storage boxes for all of our crap.
Please don’t use “McMansion” and Victorian in the same sentence. McMansions are vulgar, pretentious, shoddily constructed monstrosities. Victorians have dignity, class, and character, reflecting a bygone era.
The underlying land prices have a lot to do with building bigger I think. Take a lot that used to go for $100,000 and $200,000 typically went into the structure for a total cost of $300,000. In fact, a 3:1 ratio as such is probably fairly normal.
Now let’s say lot prices double and the cost of materials and labor only goes up 20%. The $200,000 structure now costs $240,000. That would meand $200 is spent for the lot and the total cost is $440,000. But now the ratio is only 2.2:1, hardly the 3:1 that is more typical.
To have the more typical 3:1 ratio, the total package must be $600,000. The way to justify such a price is building a much bigger and perhaps higher end structure. Enter media rooms, granite countertops and the the latest finishes du jour.
Which wouldn’t be so bad except the builders also cut the lot size in half. It’s not so much the absolute house size as it is how well the house is proportioned to the lot.
Three years ago, I built a spec home with my brother-in-law. It was 2,000sf and specifically designed for middle-aged couples with no kids living at home. It was a great design - open, with a spacious kitchen, and a big master bed and bath. A major selling feature was that it had not a single step anywhere - not even on the porch or coming from the garage into the home, so they wouldn’t have to worry about an elderly parent’s ability to get around. We sold it before completion to a couple in their 50’s with no kids and elderly parents. If there’s any money to be made in the next few years in RE, I believe it will be in building places like this rather than cavernous McMansions.
I think there’s a big market in specific-design houses. This is especially true as most “family” homes don’t really think about good design for raising families… ever seen those houses with lots of bedrooms, and unsafe features for toddlers such as sharp-edged brick ledges near fireplaces? Or stairs that have no way to safely install a child gate?
You don’t have to make such houses unattractive to various markets. A home with handicapped-accessible details can still be designed to be functional and attractive to a fully mobile person.
In trying to cover all the bases, many builders end up with the lowest common denominator— something that’s not quite attractive to everyone. They should read Susan Susanka’s Not So Big House books and start paying attention to design.
I wondered how long it would take someone to mention that book.
Oh, am I bummed. I’ve been watching this place. I was thinking about a lowball offer but it sold.
http://www.davidgriffin.com/index.aspx?List=2734&Agent=58&Area=4&id=ctrl/Detail.ascx
Tx Chick, come to Michigan & you can have that exact same house for approximately $125,000 on a good day, or less — lol. I know that it is probably unique to the area, but that’s an awfully steep price for what looks to be an 900 - 1100 sq. foot old rancher house….each area has it’s so-called low prices. Me — I’d rather rent then pay that much for that place, and I grew up in Frank Lloyd Wright style design houses, so I’m very familiar with the small design built-ins style home.
Wow. Now I’m bummed that I don’t live in Dallas!
Sorry to keep the bubble going out there txchick, but considering that place would go for like 2 million out here in my areas of CA, I would have bought that place for $400K…
I know it would. But I won’t pay 400K for anything. I was considering an offer of about 275K. If the mkt pukes around here, that’s what it would go for. I’m sure it was an out of towner who paid that for it.
very cool house. wish they had more like them where I live.
John, I would buy this type of home in a heartbeat. Right now, my 50-something husband & myself are living in a perfectly nice, 1300 sq foot home w/ 2 baths, a large bedroom, another large bedroom or front room tha was built to be an office, a lovely deck, 2 car garage, etc., plus a small “bonus” bedroom that is really the size of a baby’s room that our 25-year old daughter is living until she moves out in July ( first major job after just graduation — yay !! ). The only drawback ? The laundry is in the basement. We are afraid to go down the steps with a large basket of laundry. I have taken to throwing all the dirty laundry from the basket down the steps, then throwing the basket after it, walking down the steps, picking up the dirty laundry, placing it back into the basket, walking it through the family room in the basement, which we had finished off but don’t really use, and into the back where the washer/dryer are. Oh, for a first floor laundry. We are reluctant to move at this point, since the mortgage is only $ 1046 per month incl. taxes & ins, (no PITI), so after our daughter moves out, we might put a stackable set in the small bedroom closet and have water piped to it.
Silerback. You need something like this.
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=1402888
Boy, that IS what we need. Will be looking into it when daughter moves out….love it.
It’s good to hear your validation, Silverback. After this insanity dies down, I may consider building another few homes like the one I mentioned. The problem with most 2000-2500sf ranches is that they’re old and outdated, with bad floorplans. The place we built was terrific - lots of light and open space, and great fixtures/appliances. There was nothing like it in the neighborhood, and it sold almost immediately. We didn’t make a ton of money on it, but we had fun and since it was the lot next door, we had an attractive home to look at instead of god-knows-what. I think that many 50+ couples would prefer this to the 3-story residential Wal-Marts they’re building today.
I also want to check out B. Durbin’s book recommendation.
What about putting in a laundry shute? We had one in the house my family lived in in Michigan in the ’60’s.
But I agree– one story living is going to be a big draw for my generation as we get older. And I sure can’t see many 80 year old women staying on in the family mcMansion out miles away from the nearest doctor!
Of course, even that is a lot for 2 people. I grew up in a 1700sqft ranch style. Folks + 2 bros. And that seemed pretty large. Amazing how our ‘needs’ change.
And now we learn that when the 2000 sq ft house goes down by X amt, the 3000 sq ft house goes down by 1.5X amt. Too bad for McMansion buyers who thought they were going to get rich, as they bought into the notion that RE prices always go up. It will get even worse, as McMansions will steadily lose value for maybe 25 years as the oversupply of these housing behemoths is reconciled with empty-nest-boomer demographics and the ugly reality that it is far more expensive to own and maintain a 3000sq ft home than a 2000sq ft home, once the 20% YOY price appreciation ends.
Amen. I might feel sufficiently sorry for a seller of one of these, though, to ease their pain “if the price is right.” A little act of phony charity to a squirrel-feeder at the bottom of the slide. Not looking for points in the hereafter, of course, just minimum price per sq. foot.
This is the best news I have heard on this board for awhile
When my wife and I were shopping for a home in Portland in early 2004 we couldn’t find a 2000 SF house with nice finish.
Anything with nice finish details was 3000-4000 SF and $200K more.
This is great news reasonable homes for living not as stealth speculation.
I was in Galveston yesterday. I saw lots of new McMansions on stilts.
http://louminatti.blogspot.com/2006/05/galveston-island.html
I looked at these houses with some envy, then realized that they will vanish during the next major hurricane.
Holy shit! Those are unbelieveable! I spent many summers as a surfer slacker kid in Galveston. The stilt houses were just little shacks then.
Have you ever seen the one belonging to Steve Susman, the bigshot antritrust litigator in Houston? I think Natalye Appell, well know Houston architect designed it. It’s amazing.
Check this out on Galveston:
‘Home buyers are quickly picking up properties in Sunset Cove on the western tip of Galveston Island. Overall, builders are putting about $2 billion worth of new investments into Galveston Island’s sandy soil, said Jeff Sjostrom, president of the Galveston Economic Development Partnership.’
That translates into roughly 5,400 new residences, half of them houses and half condos, and 3 million square feet of new or renovated commercial space, Sjostrom said.
‘In Galveston, that’s a historical level of investment. You have to go back to the rebuilding period after the 1900 storm to find the same pace of building that we’re seeing right now,’ Sjostrom said.’
‘Insurance companies paid out about $58 billion for catastrophe coverage last year, primarily for hurricanes, the most ever, said Carolyn Gorman, a vice president of the Insurance Information Institute in New York City. ‘They are less interested in insuring properties right along the shore,’ Gorman said.’
All well and good but you know what the problem with Galveston is? The Gulf is a sewer there. Disgusting water. Nothing you’d ever want to swim in or boat on. It ain’t Miami or even Manhattan Beach.
The other problem is that this will likely happen again some day:
http://www.noaa.gov/galveston1900/
TxChic, keep in mind this is on the East End. You oughta see what’s going on west of the Seawall, all the way down to the toll bridge.
Lou,
Are people able to get insurance for that?
You should have seen the exodus out of Galveston and Houston when Rita was threatening the coast. I had my family from Galveston County staying with me in Dallas for a solid week and the storm never even hit the area. It took them that long to get in and get out.
I don’t know who the hell would take the risk, but I’m sure there must be some insurance coverage on those houses, and for a very hefty premium. These are houses for people with more money than common sense.
I suggest that the reason that average house sizes will decline in the future is due primarily to heating/cooling costs. People are moving to very hot climates. While it doesn’t cost much to heat a house in Texas or Arizona or Florida in the winter, those $500+/mo air conditioning bills in the summer months will slap a lot of people into reality.
It doesn’t???? Come pay my heating bill! $300 per month for a 2800 square foot one story house.
TXChic,
You’re probably just cold
Most men are hot!
I am cold. No body fat. LOL
You’re in the frigid climes of north Texas.
Can these 3000 sq ft homes be easily converted into multiple dwellings? In some parts of the world, even the developed world, that’s upward of six living units. Maybe they will eventually be sold to the government for a song and turned into housing projects. Or perhaps ripped down and converted back to farmland. One could only hope.
In the less than great suburbs, look for immigrants manning these houses, 30 gardeners to a house. Mix some white flight into the jambalaya and you have McCasas. This could definitely happen in the high immigartion markets in the less than best school districts. Latin American culture calls for socialization on the front porch, not the backyard. So beware the neighborhoods with front porched McMansions.
In my neck of the woods we have old giant victorions that are now multi-family / apartments. I look at the giant homes that have gone up in the last few and see the same fate for them 20 years from now.
More like five years. Yeah, I was thinking about the old Victorians too. I had a really neat apartment in one once. Trouble is, McMansions don’t have the style and probably not the quality.
The old Victorians are often much larger. Im thinking hard about renting a floor in one of them while waiting for the bubble to deflate. Walk to work, walk to the store.
This is precisely what happened to Brooklyn houses and brownstones during the 60s and 70s -they were partitioned into SRO (single room occupancy) dwellings or multi-family apts.
We’ve lived with this kind of thing here for years in NYC, but the suburbs are just starting to see it — especially on Long Island. This is why I think anyone thinking of buying a primary residence during this downturn should focus their energy on really investigating the area in which they want to live. Gloat for 5 minutes, research for 5 weeks.
3000 sq ft is a big two-family duplex in relatively wealthy Bavaria, three decent-sized family apartments or five nice one-bedrooms. My 900 sq ft two-bedroom apartment is seen as “excessive” for a single person.
This is exactly what happened in So Cal during the last real estate bust of the early 90’s. A lot of the developers I worked with back then completely changed thier product mid-stream. I remember one project in Orange County where the developer changed from these 3500sqft+, 700K monsters, to 1600 - 2200sqft minitures of the original with price tags less than half of the original product. Boy were the homeowners pissed off!(I’m skipping the part about the 700K homes dropping all the way to 500K and still no one buying them.)
But of course this time it’s different.
I started saying last month…you know what, smaller homes are going to come back into style. Living more modestly, wasting less rooms and less space, is going to be forced upon people because of energy costs. A 3000 sf poorly constructed house in the exurbs is simply going to be less desirable because is is farther from employment centers (transportation expenses) and shopping centers (transportation expenses) and costs more to heat and cool. And by shopping centers I mean the necessary things in life….groceries, pharmacies, etc etc., because nobody is going to be doing as much recreational shopping in the future either.
Don’t let Robert Cote hear you say those words.
Those are fighting words to him.
I’ve been at Disneyland all day. Andrew doesn’t claim anything I haven’t heard hundreds of times before. Repetion is not evidence and the plural of anecdote is not data. Truth be told the exurbs and cenurbs are about a wash on energy intensity with the trend towards the exurbs improving faster than the cenurbs. Then there’s the time factor, not obvious but the exurbs are time savers in the aggregate. Finally there’s cost, the exurbs are cheaper for most living expenses from taxes to food. Malls were dead/dying before gas prices went up, nothing to see there. I do agree, however, a poorly designed/constructed house is going to suffer disproportionately. That means most of waht’s been built/rehabbed in the last 5 years and that is also disproportionately in the exurbs. San Bernardino has miles of stucco sided, thin walled energy hogs. My 1963 Ventura County predialian manse, on the other hand, runs a low couple dozen dollars in HVAC per YEAR. So, yes, inefficient and/or poorly constructed homes will suffer but it has nothing to do with their location; independent variables.
With transportation costs rising does anyone see the pendulum swinging back in favor of the small neighborhood business centers with a market, pharmacy, gas station, a pub or two and post office? I grew up in an area that had these kinds of things and we did a whole lot more walking. It also seemed more convivial.
What you are describing is neo-traditional development that Robert Cote hates so much.
Robert:
Your argument is as flimsy as Andrews. They are both opinion.
A diversity of responses is what allows a healthy population and evolution to progress.
Robert is an exurban creature and has cast his vote.
Others are more neo-traditional walkable communities oriented. They will cast their votes.
All of the markets interacting will create a winner.
It could even work out that both Robert and Others will regard themselves as winners having been happy with the tradeoffs they chose.
Imagine that one instance of different value systems acting synergetically instead of in a zero sum game.
Neo_trads are eplicit and implicit that their prefered urban patterns cannot even be contemplated without direct public subsidies. From Calthorpe to Duany I have the quotes. This is about a class of people who wish to impose their views at the point of a government. The NURBS explicitly and implicitly eschew the market having been abject failures in that arena. Mine is not opinion, it is theirs. I merely report/expose.
Lou,
Thanks for the primer on Galveston new housing stupidies on your website. It never ceases to amaze me how people forget about the recent past.
I didn’t mention what I saw in League City and LaMarque.
Thousands of new cookie-cutter homes, all doomed if a Cat 4 storm hits Galveston Bay. There is a reason these parts of the Harris and Galveston counties have been empty for the most part, and that’s the storm surge. A 20-foot storm surge will go 10+ miles inland. There are no levees or seawalls between these houses and the Bay. I think people are hoping that 3 miles of pancake-flat prairie will protect them from the Bay.
But hey, the houses are cheap! Enjoy it for a year or two or 5, then flee as the next hurricane comes in, only to come back to a concrete slab. Stupid homebuilding is the American Way.
LaMarque! Tell me you’re kidding. Please. LaMarque used to be oil refinery trailer trash and, to put it delicately, “democrats.” Tell me they’re not building “luxury” type housing there. Please, before I go into the garage and let the car engine purr me to sleep
Don’t say the “D” word or that Ritalin-junkie Lingus will show up, and he’s crazier than a $hithouse rat.
I don’t know what’s more boring here lately… listening to the drivel of ‘Republicans vs Democrats’ when it comes to any subject, or watching both you and Lingus follow each other around, circling and sniffing each other’s asses while waiting to get in the next jab.
It doesn’t matter whether it’s Repub or Dem, anyone with even half a brain knows that they’re fundamentally the same, with the same shitty results retreived through different paths.
Understand, Republicans and Democrats do have the same fundamental values and goals, it is the ways of accomplishing them that is the difference between the two. The longer people play this stupid friggin’ game, the worse it gets for ALL of us.
Well Said.
Second that Peter. Enough of the useless politco babble. It’s all about the housing bubble stupid!
Couldn’t agree more. One need only to follow the money. We stopped having two parties in this country some time ago. Today’s government supports the monied interests.
Amen. Both parties suck. To the toolboxes who still spout your partisan political crap in here, please use your head for something besides a hat rack.
txchick57, I am amazed how you put democrats synonymous of poor or low income fox. I see republiKKKans as wannabe christians who claim richesness and associate themselves with money while getting f*cked by the high-income people who thrives of their stupidity. Because of republicans we are on this board today debating housing, it’s the evil doing of a republican administration to give an illusionary wealth for the wannabe republicans. One day those wannabee’s will wake up with a wealth that’s evaporated and a worthless dollar. The unfortunate thing is all middle and low income people will suffer whether repub or democrat. And the high-in power people who played a mind game for the last 10 years with the whole wannabe communities will walk away unscratched. I am disgusted from your comment!
Amen Stressed Renter. The stupidity of some of the neo-con altar worshippers is hilarious. They all seem to be $50k/yr wage slaves fully convinced by those they worship that “some day….. some day…… if they work hard enough, they’ll be millionares.”……
lmao
I weathered a cat 1 in a stilt house on Clear Lake Shores Island and I want no part of that experience again. You could not pay me to live there again unless by some wave of a magic wand hurricanes vanished. I pert near sheet myself a few times as that whole house took to leaning this aways and then that aways. Then there was the doggone front door that kept getting blown open cause the jam was getting twisted out of whack. I finally nailed it with a 16 penny and that held. It’s easy to write it all off as whining and fear mongering if your agenda is to sell unsuspecting folks property in that area. Then again, many folks are there by choice because of JSC and they feel that working there is an honor and are willing to live there and accept the risks.
I do not recall what the surge was during the storm I weathered, but I know that when I went down to Watergate Marina to check on my sloop the water was shoulder deep above the dock planks. This was a Cat 1 named Jerry in the fall of 1989. It came ashore at Jamaica beach Galveston around midnight and tracked up Galveston Bay through Texas City, Kemah and Clear Lake Shores.
oc-ed, I think you’d be shocked to see what has developed on Clear Lake since Jerry:
http://www.kemahboardwalk.com
All of it blissfully unprotected from a hurricane. Next time a hurricane comes knocking in the area, sell your Landry’s stock.
I went to Clear Lake High School and weathered that big unnamed tropical storm that flooded the place in 1979 (got a citation from the governor for “saving” some elderly people in a nursing home from the rising water) and Alicia in 1983. I’m simply shocked that more building is going on down there. Of course, I haven’t set foot in the place since 1998 because the whole “Stepford” aspect of it gives me the heebyjeebies.
If any one in the LA area wants a good laugh turn on 97.1 FM for the second half of the Howard Cohen RE radio show, it is on till 4:00PM.
In the 20 minutes I have been listening he has already 1)Guaranteed RE in Phoenix will double in 10 years 2)Talked up one of his listings in North Hollywood 10000 square feet for 835K. 3)Said RE is a no lose prop. I must be on mars.
As many of us have stated before, it’s not the size of the house that counts, it’s the layout.
We had a 3/2, under 1,300 SF and the LR and FR were actually LARGER than in most of the 3,000 SF McMansions. It was also single-story (God I hope they start build more of those!), and the garage was right next to the kitchen — good for practical stuff like bringing in groceries and instant hot water in the kitchen (WH on other side of the wall). If not for needing one more bedroom (and the ‘hood wasn’t the best), we’d still be there.
“it’s not the size of the house that counts, it’s the layout”
BINGO! It amazes me how little thought goes into the layout of most homes. Even the major HBs’ floor-plans leave you scratching your head. The worst are those who try squeezing three bedrooms into a two bedroom home which results in the entire house being out of whack.
but perception is reality.
You know what really bugs me? Bathrooms with two sinks and one flimsy towel rack. Who designs these things?
Again I will quote two classic lines from “L.A. Story” (such a great movie)
There’s a Tudor Mansion . . . . and there’s a four door mansion!
You’re not anyone in L.A. unless you have a really big door.
*So* happy to hear this. Please no more 2-story foyers. We’re renting one; I would never buy one. When I’m on top of the staircase I look over and see the dead flies that collect on the windowsill of that impossible-to-reach space.
Another thing I *HATE* is a tiny laundry room between the garage and the main floor. I just love the smell of gas fumes when I’m trying to wash my delicates! I also enjoy having to look at them hanging up when I come home and enter through the garage. BLARG. Hovnanian built this house and the layout gives me the HEEBIE JEEBIES.
Toll in trouble:
http://www.newratings.com/analyst_news/article_1268155.html
my apologies if post elsewhere; I haven’t had time to read all the threads this weekend…have to wait till I go back to work to have that kind of time….
Whadya mean — that was good news for Toll, as reflected in the 4% pop in their stock price on Friday.
hehehe…I sold my newly constructed 2500SF 4Bdrm, 3B Cape Cod as the result of a divorce, and moved into a 750SF 1 BDRM apt.
I travel allot and was completely comfortable. Even ran my appraisal biz out of it for awhile.
If the energy crisis proves real, you’re apt to see a return to the 1100/1200 SF bunaglow’s of the 20’s & 30’s.
Also contributing to the downsizing will be property tax levels which will become confiscatory in order to pay for the lavish pensions and health care of a bazillion retiring public employees.
The McMansion era will prove to be a demographic aberrration.
I’m amused that 3,200 gets McMansion billing in SF. Here in the Portland, ME suburbs that would be your typical new house size. I think of the McMansions as 4,000 and up at a minimum.
Difference is that in SF, you can actually go outside all year long. And w/kids, who’s home? Between soccer, baseball, swimming, hanging at the mall, etc.
Comment by mad_tiger
2006-05-07 14:45:19
“it’s not the size of the house that counts, it’s the layout”
BINGO! It amazes me how little thought goes into the layout of most homes. Even the major HBs’ floor-plans leave you scratching your head. The worst are those who try squeezing three bedrooms into a two bedroom home which results in the entire house being out of whack.
Agreed here. Me and my husband are so picky when it comes to floorplans. Often we tour new homes and look at the majority of the floorplans and go…”what the hell was the designer/architect thinking?” Poorly designed layouts, often with rooms too small to even fit a queen sized bed in, plumbing and utilities in wierd places, poorly ventilated kitchens, and a big thing that pisses me off…garages that are advertised as being “two car” but really fit only one. Face it, if you can’t get two Honda Civics to park in a two car garage side by side…it isn’t a two car garage!
I have nothing against true mansions for people that can afford them. But a McMansion isn’t a mansion…you can argue all you want about their size and amenities, but if you’re in a 4000K+ crammed into a lot with less than 10 feet away from your neighbor’s home, you ain’t living in a mansion, you’re living in a glorified townhouse and eyesore.
There isn’t an architect on most subdivision homes.
They practice infectious repetitous.
Take the last plans that sold and copy ‘em.
For a bit of amusement, go to a bookstore and browse through a book of new home plans. If you have any notion of design, you’ll start to notice the same things over and over again.
The best design I ever saw was for a 1200 sq ft house that had been a winner of a competition. The designer had tried to get as much possible out of the design and actually succeeded— probably because he had to work so hard to fit everything in. The design was two bedrooms and two stories… which meant he was able to squeeze in a loft. And a window seat opened up the main room a bit as well.
It’s all planning, people. Think what you actually need in a house. Think of what you love and hate about houses you’ve been in. And think of rooms that never get used… while the family complains of being cramped.
Houses are for living in, and if they’re little more than upholstered caves, what’s the point?
Look for capes and ranches to come back into fashion. Second story stairs are bad for creaky kneed boomers. Capes are great because you can close off the top floor and turn the upstairs thermostats way down and live on the first floor. When house guests arrive, the upstairs thermostat goes back on.
Colonials with a bedroom on the first floor will be in more demand than those with all BR’s upstairs. Look for lots of unused formal living rooms to become BR’s in many colonials.
If I ever had to actually buy one of these 2-stories, I would definitely convert the LR into a BR. Here in CA, the LR is often 12X15 — way too small for having company– and it’s located where nobody will use it. How about the 1/2 bathrooms on the first floor, though? That’s what really gets me. I can sleep anywhere if I have to, but would also need a shower/bath on the first floor. Anytime I see these gawd-awful plans, I always suggest to the sales reps that they should spend the extra $3,000 and put in a shower on the first floor. It would make these houses so much more marketable.
Oh, and how about those “parlors” some of the builders are putting in. WTF is a “parlor” for???
Is dollar being bitch-slapped again on monday in Japan….
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With childhood visions of the brady bunch dancing in their heads, 1st generation Tony’s and Maries haul their bloated litter of cretins north to orange county and proceed to live out some hollywood fantasy of “life in the suburbs”. But now Fat Tony and Hairy Marie are ass deep in credit card debt and have to dump their Chevy SLOBurban and ugly overgrow shit-level rancher.
Why is it a surprise that these insulting $hitbox teepee’s are not selling?
Bubblefucius say:
Man who get lost in own house need to find his way.
I am looking forward to the jewelboxes of old. Efficiently designed houses that use space intelligently and don’t waste energy will be much welcomed.
Simmsays…
Doug Hall Live Sunday 9pm
http://www.americaninventorspot.com
Energy efficient houses are the wave of the future . But really, I don’t care what kind of house you like ,if you can afford it that will make it a good house .
You want “out there” on that score, try this
http://www.earthship.org
I personally think these are awesome.
TX Chick:
I worked on a couple of those in the early 1990’s.
Interesting concept but still not ready for prime time.
There are a ton of moisture issues with wood framed south facing windows and indoor planters using gray water. Not to mention subterrenean water through the back cliff wall.
My brother spent a couple of Summers in Taos, NM working on them. The architect is a bit of a “character”.
For my money the Canadian pre-stressed structural straw bale homes are the way to go with lots that can accomodate the thick walls. (not beach communities)
You can add self-sufficient infrastructure to a Straw Bale home nicely.
Txchick57… I had to walk the dog. Thanks for the link .
A friend of mine is a neighbor to these guys in central Arizona. When we’re visiting there, we’ll stop by the hippy bakery and wander around a bit. Really a unique place but some of the inhabitants remind me of scientologist.
http://www.arcosanti.org/expArcosanti/visit/overnight/main.html
Yep, been there done that.
I worked with an architect that was project architect there for 12 years. There were some interesting stories.
Arcologies are the epitome of urban dense designs.
No one has tried it but it was an option in the various Sim City games.
Shhhh…don’t tell Robert Cote.
Robert:
Just a little kidding between long time posters. You sound a bit like a gun guy.
The planners can have your exurban dream home after they pry it from your cold dead fingers.
Here is news for you no one will take your exurban home from you, but why would you want to force them on the rest of the population?
Ever see the $147 annual tax bills on $800k townhomes in Orenco Station? That’s why.
Energy efficient houses have always been the wave of the future, always will be. Not glib, just fact. Let me explain; new technology and techniques are constantly being integrated into the latest designs. Any problem so far? Okay, then there’s bleeding edge that only goes into fat rich client homes in case they don’t work out. Any problems yet? Okay, now the part that’s going to chafe; this has been happening for centuries. Oiled animal skins were replaced by this exotic material called glass for but one instance.
Anyway, it is going to take only a small increase in efficiency or decrease in price for solar photovoltaics to make sense for a quarter of the nation’s SFRs. That gives the rest of the nation an equal break as energy is fungible. The problem for the proto-neuvo-urbanists is that it won’t generally apply to the dense core city forms they endorse. I’m looking at going 85% off grid for $8000. Not bad but this includes $6000 in incentives and is still only a break even proposition.
In the future the house that will make sense is the acre in the sun with thick walls, large overhangs and onsite resource utilization. Just about every big city advocates worst nightmare.
“In the future the house that will make sense is the acre in the sun with thick walls, large overhangs and onsite resource utilization. Just about every big city advocates worst nightmare.”
Erm, that would be the planet Dawn, as described by Isasc Asimov.
But as I recall, even those houses used a lot of glass.
I agree with you (and Dr. Asimov) that this is the future, but as you say, this is the future. I would say the far future. You need a very low population density to make this work, Asimov had to invent a new planet to get the density low enough.
But I agree that this would be a good thing.
People in my, uh, proto-nuevo-urbanist boro are growing ever more interested photovoltaics, geothermal and even out by JFK, wind, because of mucho brownouts, infrequent blackouts and soaring fuel costs. - NY state is giving good consumer (and landlord) incentives for this - and coned does net metering, so it’s not a bad deal — no it’s not an off the grid thing, but you’d be surprised what efficiency you can squeeze from an urban roof — especially if you are in a brick bldg, insulated by other buildings.
I’m looking at going 85% off grid for $8000
How?
Last house I appraised “off-grid”, the owner had around $65k wrapped up in his system.
Talk about superadequacies. Value in use totals installation costs for 3 utility poles and $12k for a typical hwbb system.
You “eat” the rest as a participant in alternative energy solutions. You’ll also pay the price for a non-conforming property relative to mortgage situations.
I built a double-wall, super-insulated passive solar home
in 1981.
It got rendered functionally “obsolete” with the crash in oil during the balance of the decade.
This country’s had 25 years to get it’s energy act together. You’ll excuse me a total cynic to today’s wailing and lamentations.
As implied in the original post, through subsidies and generous payback schemes. I “suck down” $120 of ‘trons per month. here’s a discounted type low end system: http://wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.expand.html
This should cover about 85%. 120% at peak and SoCalEd will pay (is forced to pay) retail to buy it back. About 5-6 years to pay back my investment. Less if as I suspect SoCalEd forces us to revisisit two summers ago for their nefarious political reasons.
Anyway 85% “off grid” is a lot different than totally off grid as you note. Insurance is also a killer. My home is solar passive by design; with careful alignment, strategic trees, large overhangs, thick walls, themal mass, etc. You have every right to be suspicious of any new found energy awareness.
“‘We find ourselves doing homes that I never would have thought of two years ago,’ said Dan Fini, a local builder who just began work on an eight-lot subdivision in Hamptonburgh. Fini had banked on building homes 3,200 square feet or larger. Now, he’s planning to keep those homes under 3,000 square feet, and the prices below half a million.”
“Fini is not alone, and that, it turns out, is one of the reasons he’s lowering prices. In Orange County, there are a lot of 3,000-square-foot homes for sale. ‘There’s a lot of them sitting,’ said Frank Nutt Jr., another local builder. Nutt is reducing the sizes and prices of homes he’s building in Montgomery and Goshen.”
Downsizing the construction plans along with the price tag? What’s up with that? Running out of McMillionaires, are we?
My god. Are they going to eliminate the gift wrapping rooms and 500 square foot, “monument to my MasterCard” closets? The horror! I am getting the vapors and must retire to my fainting couch. How are people expected to rough it like this?
Getstucco, TxChick — good humor here today. Bet there is not much funny to read on the investment blogs.
peak oil is sure going to hit the mcmansion.
and the problem is?
After I saw a woman and 2 little kids get into a Ford Excursion 4×4. I can only smile when I think of her dropping $150 into the tank every fill up.
Yeah and the kicker? she was taking the kids a half-mile to school. Probably let the gas hungry beast ‘warm-up’ for 10 mins too. Pathetic.
OT the unthinkable, my neighbors just called me over to tell me they just bought a condo in Orlando, paid full price. I am sooo upset, I now know what everyone else here talks about when this happens to them. I was so quiet they asked me what was wrong, I said I wasn’t feeling well. How can I tell them, they won’t hear, they won’t listen. They are nice people, great neighbors. You know how you feel when you are really upset and it feels like a freight train is running through your head, well that’s me and I feel absolutely powerless. It just feels awful.
Orlandorenter, maybe it’s a New York thing, but I love it when my neighbors make stupid financial decisions. Makes me f*cking richer in comparison.
Strange but true — people outside New Yawk (or the surrounding snob dens like Greenwich) in many cases actually place a higher value on friendship than financial gain.
You reminded me of my all-time favorite New York story — about a woman who was stabbed to death out on the lawn in front of a large apartment building. Though many occupants of the building saw what was taking place on the lawn below, none of them bothered to even pick up the phone to call the cops. That story has always made me thankful that I would never have to live anywhere near New Yawk myself…
That’s a funny race you are running.
Why do you care so much for your neighbors? Hell, now you have someobody to buy a cheap Condo from.
They are my friends.
I think if they are your friends you have to do your best to lay out the facts for them. They may still be able to get out of it.
i am thinking you are right, but they are high (euphoria) I need to wait a bit. I hate this. I cannot believe they are being this STUPID.
Not a bad point, by Waaahoo. If they are some of your very best buddies in this world, you might get them to change their mind and bail. I have had, for 30+ years, five best buddies (and spouses). None would resent such advice and all would know that they would remain my best friends no matter their decision. Disclaimer: my wife disagrees with this idea, but nothing is new, there.
Below the level of best friend, I’d be a lot more circumspect about offering any opinion now that they have written a check.
Orlando Renter, to a certain extent, they may be in better shape financially than you think, and to spoil their pleasure is useless. If they are renting and have decided to buy their piece of the pie, why fight it ? It’s their decison, their business, and their money. They are adults. Just my opinion, but I hate it when someone that isn’t privy to all my financial data and thinking tries to butt in on my decisions.
they don’t even have 5 percent to put down.
Fools! Don’t you realize you will be the CAUSE the (alleged) drop in prices! You must keep your mouths shut at least if you can’t cheer your friends good fortune.
Seriously, I’ve learned to keep my mouth shut when people do stupid things. Nothing will ever change and while it’s unfortunate financial hit for your friends, money isn’t everything.
Orlandorenter, last summer a friend from your neck of the woods with no experience in the trades called me to ask about building costs as he and his wife were thinking about buying some land and building a spec house. Things were still looking rosy at the time so while what I told them came to be true, at the time I was just rain on their parade.
I’m not holding my breath for a “thank you” call but I think they would have really gotten hurt if I didn’t speak up.
Whatever you do, don’t let on you think it was a bad idea. They will have to discover for themselves over the next few years.
exactly
“As many of us have stated before, it’s not the size of the house that counts, it’s the layout.”
So True………We lived in a 1500 sq ft home in the SFV for 7 years, a family of 6 people! It was a 4 bedroom, 2 bath built in 1954 (typical valley ranch/bungalow), with a detached grarge and a nice big laundry room inside! That house was so functional it was unbelievable how large it felt. The rooms were modest in size, but big enough for 2 twin beds. We could have used a bit more space in the master, but hey, who really uses their “sitting area” in the master anyway. The lot was nice and large so the kids had room to play.
I am trying to talk my husband into picking up an older ranch when the bottom falls out of this market. He wants a big McMasnion. Ugggggghhhhhhh.
I’m in the same damn boat. I’d love an older block constructed ranch-style home, but my husband has these grandiose ideas about the big box style McMansions. We’ve had our fair share of arguments over this, because the thought of even living in one of those boxed up slices of hell makes me want to vomit. Hopefully when the shit hits the fan, he’ll come around.
Builders!!! Are you listening!!! Graying “empty nest” baby boomers don’t want a big house to vacuum, heat, and keep clean. And energy is REALLY gonna be a big deal in the future. How about this for a typcial home in your new subdivision:
1500 Ft2
Under $300K
3 Bed/2 Bath
Non-carpet flooring
Little elbow room between houses
Walking paths
Natural areas left natural
One car garages
Energy efficient appliances/doors/windows
Solar options (elec inputs for roof panels, wind generators, or other types of input modules)
Cost of house itemized (foundation/frame/roof/plumbing/wiring/kitchen/floors) so buyers can pick how far they want builder to go or do some work themselves
Layout of subdivision favors cul-de-sacs to minimize thru traffic
Layout of subdivision favors residential rings around retail so everyone has equal walking distance to retail stores and restaurants to encourage walking.
There is no reason to keep building the typical sprawl type patterns across country.
First builder to be able to build to the “small and green” formula will really cash in.
SeattleMoose ……Your idea sounds ok, but forget the one-car garage ,it has to be a two -car garage .
And a basement for all of the accumulated junk. Plus in some areas (e.g. Ozarks) the basement is the safe haven when tornadoes appear, which seems to be more and more often.
make that 2 car garages please
“Graying “empty nest” baby boomers”
That’s me. But here’s what else I need:
1. Underground wine cellar (at least 400 sqft) so I don’t have to spend so much on electricity for cooling.
2. 3 car garage so I can keep all of the cars indoors.
3. 1000 sqft workshop for my hobbies and maintenence tools.
4. Detached 1200 sqft home office with gigabit connectivity.
5. Media room with adequate acoustical insulation to listen loud.
6. Gardens, ponds, and fruit groves.
Nope: I think you totally missed the market. I, for one, am not ready to move into an old folk’s home (planned community). What we really need is more sprawl with far lower density, so that aging boomers can have some space.
Hehe, actually I need all of that except the wine cellar and the fruit. And I only have 2 cars, but the 3rd garage is needed for the lawn mower, bikes, and christmas decorations.
As for graying, all I can say is, they have technology to cover that now.
What you need is a McRanchion — lol !
Agree with most, but also need 4 BR options. I like carpeting, we have kids who crawl/fall easily.
Also must have two-car garages (and I’d prefer some storage space in there as well).
NO HOAs!!!!
Don’t like the cul-de-sac options unless really well planned because that usually puts more pressure on main thorough-fares and increases congestion. Grid designs move SO MUCH MORE traffic than squiggly-curvy dead end disasters. If the populations is likely to grow, must think about traffic patterns.
Somebody get that trend down to Tampa ASAP. My fiancee and I drove through some south Tampa neighborhoods recently, looking at some prospective rentals. We bore witness to some of the most God-awful misbegotten monuments to ego that I have ever seen in my life. You’d think people perceive themselves as Greek deities. The worst is when you see a small 2/1 selling for $500,000+, because the owner/Realtor is pricing the house as if it will be torn down and replaced by a monstrosity–up to now, a pretty good bet.
I also passed the “dream house” of a former co-worker, where I attended several holiday parties over the years. She and her husband are divorcing and the house is up for sale, so it looks like it will have to become somebody else’s dream.
I feel sorry for these people.
Olrandorenter said:”the unthinkable, my neighbors just called me over to tell me they just bought a condo in Orlando, paid full price. I am sooo upset, I now know what everyone else here talks about when this happens to them. I was so quiet they asked me what was wrong, I said I wasn’t feeling well. How can I tell them, they won’t hear, they won’t listen. They are nice people, great neighbors. You know how you feel when you are really upset and it feels like a freight train is running through your head, well that’s me and I feel absolutely powerless. It just feels awful”.
I know full well what you mean. A very good friend of mine told me last week she bought a Condo too. Like you, I just dont know what to say. I sure didnt congradulate her that is for sure. Tomorrow I will drive down to the bayarea and staying at her home. Is there a way for someone to backout of a RE deal once you sign the contract that doesnt have a contingency?
Maybe she has 15 days to back out like my neighbors. You could ask?
I just talked to a new friend about the housing market. He was receptive to my comment that housing is probably on the downhill spiral and that buying now might not be a great idea, but that’s all I’ll say about it. It’s his life and his money.
Now that the obsession with big homes seems to be over, when can we get rid of all the monster redneck pick-up trucks?
I hope so. I’d like to buy a newer one for really cheap. Maybe pick it up from a fuc**ed suburbanite borrower. That way I’ll know it’s never really been used other than for some perverted showoff mechanism. Looks like smaller is suddenly the new big. Thank goodness.
Don’t worry. Around here even the $10 / hr helpers are driving around in $30,000 diesel 4×4’s. They will be for sale soon.
I have lived in different sized homes and sometimes it depends on who your living with that might determine how big the house needs to be.
Heh, good point!
Another thing which would be a good idea in more populated areas (like So Cal) is for each new house to have a granny flat or guest house (some can be above-garage but most should be ground level). That way, you could increase lot size by just a bit more, and house two families there (must provide ample parking). It would help with “affordability” because you just dramatically increased rental inventory. The LLs could keep a better eye on the place, and aging parents could move in with their kids (or vice-versa) if they become unable to care for themselves.
It would likely create safer neighborhoods than apartments, and provide extra income for the owners.
Here in Brooklyn, we have 3,000 square foot, three story rowhouses that can be used by one-family, two families or three families — and shift between them over time. That’s an efficient design here — a couple purchases it and rents out two floors for affordability, takes a second floor when kids come, makes in a one family with older kids, and perhaps has one floor for them, one for a kid, and one for an elderly parent later on.
Could exurban McMansions go that route? I’m not sure an auto-based transport system and cesspools, which is what you usually have, could handle the density. So local governments will try to stop it. Zoning enforcement may become a big issue if individuals feel compelled to subdivide and rent due to their financial interests, and neighbors feel compelled to stop them. Another way this could get ugly.
Not only zonig, but HOAs-many have covenants that they must be owner occupied for the first x number of years. Still, what can these really do in court if the house sits abandoned for 6 months? Or if it becomes foreclosed on and owned by the bank-hey sure didn’t sign the HOA. It is sort of funny tom imagine some of the very anal ‘enforcers’ of these HOAs trying to deal with this reality-my friend lives in one where the head of the HOA is a retired career military officer, with all due respect, you can imagine what a stickler this guy is, constantly writing people up on the bylaws of some 50 page HOA document. This friend was cited for having a vegetable garden, which is apparently not allowed-but I thought would be a basic human right. Imagine this guy when you have this house sitting empty for a year, or when there are 10 cars parked on its lawn for the new ‘family’ which has just been rented to?
It’s a good idea in theory, but I can’t see subdividing my house or renting out any rooms, even when the kids go off to college. It isn’t people that’s the problem. It’s stuff. Stuff has a tendancy to multiply to fill all available space. It’s like a law of physics or something.
It’s all crap. Get rid of it.
Orlandorenter said:Maybe she has 15 days to back out like my neighbors. You could ask?
Thanks, yes I will ask. Hopefully too, she has had time to think this over in the meantime.
Building Speculators buying up land in AZ despite the # of homes for sale-unbelievable!
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0508biz-sunvalley08.html