The Housing Bubble

Office 2010 is execrable.

I’ve been pretty happy with OpenOffice. Especially the price: gratis.

OTOH, I’ve heard that, for power Office users, it lacks some features. (Yours Truly never was an Office power user. Hence, my OpenOffice bliss.)

Hey lavi d,

A section of the road around Isabella lake (north side) going to the airport is plum washed away. That said, Mr. Cole enjoys playing pool at the GreenHorn Saloon/Restaurant up the road in Alta Sierra.

“Not everyplace is New York, New Jersey or California.”

No kidding. But the biggest battles are being fought in the states where the unions are strongest and the deficits are the largest. It seems fitting that one of the key battles is taking place in The People’s Republic of Madison.

This discussion is about the most entrenched of the unions and their strangleholds they have on so many state and local governments. I don’t think we need to single out every location every time.

When we lived in PA we had more than one person tell us about how it required a bribe to the right individual(s) to get a county or state government job.

Do you actually know that teachers, firefighters, etc. in Wisconsin make the same kind of money as their counterparts in New York and New Jersey, or are you just making an assumption there?

“It’s quite a coincidence that after we’ve greatly lowered the tax rates on the wealthy, we can’t afford to run our governments and pay people their promised benefits. Cause and effect?”

Yup, also, seems that ever since the so-called Federal Reserve took over our currency, economy, and now, government, the purchasing power of the dollar has dropped 98%, and now our economy is imploding.

Somebody once boasted about the fact that if they controlled a nation’s money, they cared not about the laws in that country. Do you know who that was?

benefits could be easily paid if we taxed the rich at the same rate as we did for most of the last half of the 20th century.

We could also easily pay these if costs if we reformed the way that we pay for health care.

If you read through the details and the projections regarding budget problems in both the federal and state governments, what you see is that health care spending is a major part of the problem. If we adopted system they have in Canada, France, or wherever, the savings would be sufficient to eliminate all of these budget problems.

“We could also easily pay these if costs if we reformed the way that we pay for health care. ”

+1

We could also easily pay these if costs if we reformed the way that we pay for health care.
—————-

Yep! I think a lot of us would agree with that.

Misses the point that private sector wages and benefits on the whole have been eroded significantly while public union members have been on the guaranteed up-escalator. Teachers are very well aware that they are doing very much better than their kid’s parents in this shrinking economy.

Misses the point that private sector wages and benefits on the whole have been eroded significantly while public union members have been on the guaranteed up-escalator.

Your “misses the point” point has some validity however the more validity that point would have would lesson the credibility (on their refusal to raise taxes on the rich) of the type most likely to argue that point.

Because your point alludes that we all should sacrifice and suffer equally during tough times, which does make sense. However the type to argue we need to cut public pay would most likely never demand that the super-rich sacrifice like the rest of us. This is hypocrisy that Americans are being intentionally programmed to not only to accept but to champion.

No points for you for assuming I have a funny attitude about some other subject and am therefore incredible.

LOL, thank you. You just illustrated my point. Most arguing for public pay cuts for “common sacrifice” ignore the 800lb gorilla in the room. (the rich not being asked to sacrifice)

Why? Because they are programmed to.

I actually did not say that anyone’s pay should be cut. I actually have no idea what those people earn or if it is fair. I did comment from my personal experience in that my teacher SO is still getting raises and entitlements as her kid’s parents are dying on the vine. It is an imbalance that cannot go on forever.

Regarding those rich people, many of them have gotten so largely by the greed of the ordinary person, IMO. They skim off of our indebtedness at every level. I am doing my best to break their backs. There again, an imbalance that cannot go on forever.

Rio,

I decided to go look into your report further. Here’s the first thing that caught my eye:

“The occupational mix of the two sectors is also substantially different: about two-thirds of jobs
in the public sector are “professional and administrative,” compared to just 51 percent of jobs in the
private sector. ”

How so a 2-1 ratio public vs 1-1 ratio private.. Anyone picking up on a problem?

This guy then goes on to compare salary by education level… Those with some college, college bachelors, and masters, and finds that public workers come out behind… Oh really! So you mean when you include someone with an engineering degree building tech products in the public group, and put a bunch of liberal arts major gov’t employees in the other group, the group with the engineering degrees is going to be paid more!?! Who would have thought!?!

If it’s so much better in the private sector, then why are these people complaining… Go out and get a better job like the rest of us do when we want more money. It’s apparently pretty easy in the private sector according to them…

Why is it that private school teachers are paid less than public school teachers and fight REAL hard to get public sector jobs? Could it be that despite teaching being a noble profession( it really is!), there is an OVERSUPPLY of people going into teaching to try to leach off the cushy benefit and pension system?

It’s not just teachers either if you compare civil engineer positions at the county and in private sector, the public sector comes out on top again… at least in San Diego.. I just helped my brother research it.

Maybe you misunderstand the problem here. The problem is not that we don’t want teachers to have good pay and life to be good for them. I do. Many others do.. I really want the best for these people. But I don’t want to support the best for someone by threat of imprisonment to me for not giving more and more…

What I do want is for these choices to move back to my county level where I can make more of a difference in how the funds for schools are raised and spent. As decisions on teacher pay, administrative pay, education plans and even school lunches moves out to the state capitals and federal govt, I lose the ability to make an impact with my vote.

Why do property taxes, which fund the majority of the education budget in most states, first travel all the way to the state capital before coming back to the county, often with numerous restrictions and program requirements attached? It makes no sense.

The thing that truly amazes me is that IMHO a liberal mindset should support diversity. When there is a homogenized culture (and govt), we are all poorer for it. Move these issues back to the counties, and let each of them deal with it in their own way. Perhaps a county or two in Wisconsin *will* run into financial trouble, but at least the rest of the state won’t be drug down if a single state legislature runs the budget afoul of basic laws of economics.

great post, mathguy. Thanks for taking the time to type that all out.

This guy then goes on to compare salary by education level… Those with some college, college bachelors, and masters, and finds that public workers come out behind… Oh really! So you mean when you include someone with an engineering degree building tech products in the public group, and put a bunch of liberal arts major gov’t employees in the other group, the group with the engineering degrees is going to be paid more!?! Who would have thought!?!

We shouldn’t compare apples to oranges and there are comparisons to apples to apples available and one follows. And I’m sure some areas like San Diego vary but from what I’ve seen and heard and from the studies presented I’d say public professionals such as engineers, doctors, lawyers, code writers etc make about the same as private sector ones when you include education and experience levels. If that’s not true, it should be.

Here’s something from the Federal OMB on it.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/blog/10/03/10/Salary-Statistics
…the truth is that a comparison of federal and private-sector pay, even by occupation, is misleading because the employees hired by the federal government often have higher levels of education than their counterparts in the private sector – even within the same occupations. When you factor in the education and experience of the federal workforce, there is no statistically significant difference in average pay levels.

So the bottom line is: when education and age are held constant, the entire difference in average pay between the federal and private sectors disappears.

I decided to go look into your report further. Here’s the first thing that caught my eye:

I posted 3 now.

Thank you, Rio.

It’s late, and I’m sure no one will see this, but public school teachers in California are required to have a teaching credential, while private school teachers aren’t even required to have a degree at all.

I’ve seen both sides of private and public employment, and there is no question about the public sector having much higher requirements to get hired, and then these employees are under much more scrutiny after they are hired.

Mikey, you are one of the best at making silly arguments.

The salary of a job is generally determined by what it would cost to maintain qualified personnel. At the current rate of pay for public service jobs there are often waiting lists a mile long of qualified candidates. Often these “working men” get their jobs based more on their family connections than their qualifications. How many third and fourth generation police and firemen are out there? Public service positions shouldn’t be run as a family business.

I take the New York City subway to work every day. I would guess that is more dangerous than many of these jobs you mention.

I know in your mind I must hate all working people if I am questioning the political connections of public unions and the distorted pay they have received.

But thank you for your always extreme and disjointed comments. Your partisan nature shines through loud and clear.

NyCityBoy,

You said public workers made more than private sector workers and backed it up with nothing.

I posted 2 studies finding public workers make less than private workers with the same education, even when benefits are included.

Now NYCityBoy, are you more interested in blather or do you have the facts and chops to counter my sourced post?

I doubt you do NYCityBoy, but would any of you others taking NYCityBoy’s position like to discuss the point?

I posted 2 studies finding public workers make less than private workers with the same education, even when benefits are included.

I didn’t see the studies, but having the same education isn’t the important factor.

Job for job, who makes more, benefits included? That’s what’s relevant.

“Mikey, you are one of the best at making silly arguments.”

“But thank you for your always extreme and disjointed comments. Your partisan nature shines through loud and clear.”

NYCityBoy, it is always my to humor you as I always enjoy your well educated perpetual, yet subtle, self flattery-syndrome and never ending arrogance.

I once again attempt to make my silly arguementive question simple enough for you.

When is the last time you rolled out of your warm bed at 2:00 am on a winter morning and did something dangerous, dirty or vital to your community or fellow man?

Rio,

Public sector pay varies a lot by region in the US. Having grown up in North Jersey, I can see exactly where NYCityBoy is coming from, where public sector jobs are highly overpaid and are mostly given to those with the right connections. My old high school English teacher, for example, is a superintendant at a school district in a town of about 13,000 people, and I think he’s making about $180k-$190k there.

At the same time, currently living out in Colorado, I can see where In Colorado is coming from, where public sector workers are underpaid significantly relative to the private sector.

I really depends on where in the US you live.

Ooops, I left out “pleasure” for you NYCBoy

Drats, it must be that part of my public education.

When is the last time you rolled out of your warm bed at 2:00 am on a winter morning and did something dangerous, dirty or vital to your community or fellow man?

Another stupid question. I have had jobs where I had to roll out of bed at 2:00 in the morning, 3:00 in the morning, 4:00 in the morning, etc. to answer calls. It was part of my job description. And each time I helped people with the problems they were having. I work long hours at my job and often at off hours.

Unlike the public sector I do the dirty grunt crap of my job without looking for fanfare or a parade.

Are you trying to act like all of these people are doing this as volunteers or out of the kindness of their heart? The guys doing the plowing of streets and other tasks often get double-time or more at 2:00 in the morning.

You calling me arrogant cracks me up. Your arguments are just getting sillier. Keep ‘em up. Your zealotry is always good for a laugh.

Hey NYCityBoy…….are you Eddie?

You have the same tone. You know, the same humbleness and politeness.

Just wondering.

The salary of a job is generally determined by what it would cost to maintain qualified personnel. At the current rate of pay for public service jobs there are often waiting lists a mile long of qualified candidates. Often these “working men” get their jobs based more on their family connections than their qualifications. How many third and fourth generation police and firemen are out there? Public service positions shouldn’t be run as a family business.”

all true in CA.

The trick in CA if you are a fireman is to own a motorhome and during brush fire season park it near the fire lines, live out of it, sleep in it, etc and for the next 3 weeks get triple time 24 hours each day. this will help with your salary when you decide to retire at 53 years old.

The old fire hands at the Elks brag about this tatic to my dad and both my old dad and his firemen buddies argue about who was most overpaid. My dad retired in his fifties as a L1011 captain for TWA. Fireman about the same age.

The golden age gone, all gone read the “fourth turning”
for a very good explaination of these cyclic trends.

“You calling me arrogant cracks me up. Your arguments are just getting sillier. Keep ‘em up. Your zealotry is always good for a laugh.”

NYCityBoy, I didn’t MERE:Y call you arrogant, I believe that I wrote…

” I always enjoy your well educated perpetual, yet subtle, self flattery-syndrome and never ending arrogance.”

Did you miss it, that was the good point ?

What? You mean these people get paid for these selfless acts? And some even try to game the system? Don’t tell Mikey. It might collapse the house of cards he has built inside his mind.

I didn’t see the studies, but having the same education isn’t the important factor.

Job for job, who makes more, benefits included? That’s what’s relevant.

They are a job for job type comparison with benefits included.

I posted them. I wish you would see the studies before you imply doubt to them.

Line item #8 from: patrick…posted yesterday!

Bonuses for being able to design gouging systems

Hazardous blue collar job salary compensation arguments aside, Hwy50 stands by his original comment, especially regarding postions in “The OC!”

Ho ho, hah hah, hehehehehehe, BwaHaHaAhHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! (Cantankerous Intellectual Bomb-thrower™)

“The trick in CA if you are a fireman is to own a motorhome and during brush fire season park it near the fire lines, live out of it, sleep in it, etc and for the next 3 weeks get triple time 24 hours each day. this will help with your salary when you decide to retire at 53 years old.

The old fire hands at the Elks brag about this tatic to my dad and both my old dad and his firemen buddies argue about who was most overpaid.”

(Just last week while standing inside a gas station in Lake Forest, CA:)

30 something “The OC!” fireman, talking with excitement & passion into his cell phone:

“Dude, don’t do it that way, it’ll mess up your over-time pay,…no, no, NO!… look this is what you have to do…”

(Actually, Hwy has no idea what he could be possibly talking about, really.)

One of them Subway guys came to Dallas to work for the local mass transit. They had a write up in the paper. He walks the rail lines every day.

Said he loved it, no 3rd shift and no monster rats!

I love it when the pampered elite talk about being paid in relation to their edumacation. Get out in the real world, where your contribution, in tangible terms, determines what you make. Any spoiled idiot, with enough time on their hands, can attend college, and earn endless credentials, which measure nothing about what they contribute to society. Who’s more valuable, a farmer with a high school diploma, or some disconnected PHD in history, with tenure?

The nurses aide who wipes my butt when I am incapable of it is worth 10 times either one of those. (not that I am now, but someday I might be).

Comment by cactus
2011-02-24 09:48:22
The trick in CA if you are a fireman is to own a motorhome and during brush fire season park it near the fire lines, live out of it, sleep in it, etc and for the next 3 weeks get triple time 24 hours each day. this will help with your salary when you decide to retire at 53 years old.
———————

I’ll address this “fact” in tomorrow’s bits bucket.

“By voting”….not just by voting but by funding mis-information campaigns to sway the uneducated masses who also can vote. I think one of the main points of the protests is that the union cannot just deduct union fees from your check anymore resulting in a much smaller war chest to buy politicians.

Have you ever been pursuaded by a political ad on TV? No, me neither. I will review a piece of literature that is mailed to me (the fewer photos the better) because what positions a person considers important enough to explain in words when they have limited space is telling, but other than that?

I know that a few people do pay attention to the nonsense, but I bet it is way less important than the media and the political consultants claim it is.

“Have you ever been pursuaded by a political ad on TV? No, me neither.”…..well that is because you are not one of the uneducated masses (who by the way can vote as many times as you if not more). I know people who would vote based on the price of gas going up with no regard to the reasons behind it.

If those political ads on TV did not work do you think they would spend that kind of money on them?

Private school teachers are often less educated and less experienced than public school teachers.

Private school teachers usually don’t have to deal with the kids of society’s underbelly.

Just sayin…

You’re right. The Catholic and other religious institutions are wealth strippers. Who’s in charge of many if not most of the private schools?

How about the fact that these institutions get buy with 1/3 (sometimes less) of the money per student? Sure the teachers are paid less, but not 66%

http://www.ehow.com/info_7753232_public-private-school-teacher-salaries.html

i posted a link that has stats on private versus public school teacher salaries but it is not posting for some reason.

for what it’s worth…the article says private teachers make 20% less…which happens to match my anecdotal evidence. i have many many school teacher friends and relatives both in public and private.

Which brings up a good question. Why do people choose to teach in private school if the pay is significantly lower?

Thanks Michael.

Well the religious schools get to indoctrinate the young so money isn’t everything.

I wouldn’t call religious schools the free market either. They are partially funded by donations.

“I wouldn’t call religious schools the free market either. They are partially funded by donations.”

You uneducated idiot. Nearly every religious school runs completely separately from the church’s operations.

They choose the private schools for a variety of reasons:

1) qualifications - they are not certified to teach in the public schools so they do not have the additional qualifications needed

2) students - private schools only have to take the kids they want to take so there are far few problems with violence, disruptive behavior, learning disabilities, not being properly prepared for the grade level, etc.

3) parents - parents who bother to pay for private school are much more likely to be involved with their kids education making teaching said kids much much easier

4) class size - most private schools have smaller class sizes which means the classroom management and grading end of things is less burdensome - also see 2 and 3 since private school students are more likely to actually do their homework and behave

Religous affiliation probably plays a small role (nuns don’t get paid much) but the first four are the main ones, with 2 through 4 being the most important. Basically, private school teaching is an easier job. You teach fewer kids who are better behaved, better prepared, possibly smarter, and who do their homework with help from involved parents. Actually, it sounds like a much easier job. I’m surprised the difference in pay is only 20%.

Free tuition for thier own kids.

we’ll be here till doomsday if we are going to craft the debate in that subjective manner…i would contend that most accounting and legal jobs in the public sector are far “easier” than the private sector just when comparing hours alone.

Thanks for the information, Polly. I don’t really know much about private education, so that was some good information.

You are welcome, Mike. My brother was a private school teacher for 4 years before he went back to grad school. The graduate stipend was higher than his salary at a Catholic school and adjusted for cost of living it probably was close to double. That is one particular example so it isn’t generalizable, but he could have made heck of a lot more if he had been willing to take the certification classes he needed. That said, some of students were so talented that reading their writing was hardly work at all. He showed me a story by a 14 year old girl. It was so good I both laughed and teared up.

In NYC, the private schools help the teachers to make up for the low salaries by only recommending their own teachers as tutors for students needing a little extra help. NYC parents who can afford places like Spence and Dalton pay VERY well to help junior up his SAT scores.

polly, re #4, not in my neck of woods, public elementary schools have less than 20 student per class. private schools averages at least 30 and as high as 40. amazing how the teachers are able to manage that.

jose,

Well, elementary school students don’t have as much homework to correct, so that is a help. Sounds like a very, very controlled school atmosphere. With that many kids, the schools will simply invite a student not to come back the next year if they are disruptive at all. Public schools don’t have the luxury.

Lower student:teacher ratios have been one of the biggest selling points of most private schools for decades. A few states are trying to immitate that in the very low grades on the assumption that this was one of the largest factors that prevented higher achievement. Time will tell I suppose.

There may be a fifth factor to add to your list when you’re talking about famous elite schools in NYC. That would be the status that comes from being associated with an elite school. Somebody asks a person what he does for a living, the reply is “I teach at Dalton”, and the person asking the question is impressed.

Public unions and private unions should never be discussed in the same breath. Notice how that is not spelled out by so many supporters on this, and any, board?

“Public unions and private unions should never be discussed in the same breath.”

Agreed.

I think 7% of private workforce is unionized and 12% of public. I don’t think they are the problem.

From the US Department of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics:

Industry and Occupation of Union Members

In 2010, 7.6 million public sector employees belonged to a union, compared with 7.1
million union workers in the private sector. The union membership rate for public
sector workers (36.2 percent) was substantially higher than the rate for private
sector workers (6.9 percent). Within the public sector, local government workers
had the highest union membership rate, 42.3 percent. This group includes workers in
heavily unionized occupations, such as teachers, police officers, and fire fighters…

Don’t confuse this issue with facts.

And it is not the public workers that are the problem. It is the incredible pay and benefit packages they have negotiated with politicians that they put in place by way of massive campaign contributions (bribes).

Bad Andy
Rather than calling it propaganda call if factual or not factual and then present your arguement.

If the unions had their day then you can bet that day will come again. Capitalists will drive all our wages to zero including yours.

Here is a question that has been raised before.
What do you do when only 50% of the population is needed to create the stuff and services that entire population needs. What should the gov do with the large number of chronically unemployed. Choices are

1. Starve them to death which will increase crime and decrease demand.
2. Given them food stamps and unemployment for ever which creates a sloth class unable or willing to work.
3. Create jobs
a. Building infrastructure
b. Supplement service sector.
c. War
Other

You’ve already proven you’re not working with facts. If only 50% of the population is needed to create the stuff and services that the population needs you’ve got a huge problem. We don’t have that problem. We’re not competitive and don’t create and manufacture things here…and believe me, it’s not because wages are too low.

Capitalists will drive all our wages to zero including yours.

1) Who are these “capitalists” you’re now vilifying? Is that a term for business owners? Please define it

2) If the “capitalists” are looking to drive wages down, then why did google give a 10% across the board wage increase? Why did my employer do something similar? They sure have a funny method of driving our wages down to zero.

“Public unions and private unions should never be discussed in the same breath. Notice how that is not spelled out by so many supporters on this, and any, board?”

Divide the public and private labor, then destroy their unions.

It’s the basic GOP/ TP and Corporate Plan for a cheap US labor force who are “scared” and in living terror for their jobs.

Please tell me more.

I get it. I should just shut up and never question any public union. To question them is to hate all working people. To think that their buying of political influence is bad is to want to hand over the nation to Wall Street. To think that the bloating of the public work force is bad to the economy means that I never do anything for anybody, ever. I am waiting for you to call me a terrorist.

I would say your logic is flawed but I would have to see some logic somewhere in any of your posts.

“Divide the public and private labor, then destroy their unions. ”

Except, of course, for the police and firemen. Gotta keep the Praetorian Guard on your side. (Plus, they vote Republican- that’s the kind of pensions we can afford.)

At least until all the unions are safely destroyed. Then they can use their private mercenaries to let the police and firemen know their services are no longer needed. Oh, and there’s not enough cash for their pensions.

If the “capitalists” are looking to drive wages down, then why did google give a 10% across the board wage increase? Why did my employer do something similar? They sure have a funny method of driving our wages down to zero.

Man NYCityBoy, you write just like Eddie.

NYCitBoy

My is logic is very simple although I am frequently not as very eloquent as you in expressing it.

1. The Issue at hand.

2. The pertinent facts concerning the Issue .

4. Analysis of the facts.

3. Conclussion.

As for me wanting you to “shut your mouth” and you waiting to be called a terrorist, that is clearly your own personal problem.

OK let’s assume 20% aren’t needed, that seems pretty consistent with real US unemployment/underemployment, and if you factor in the rest of the world this # is reasonable.

Thanks for the correction, the 12% number was the total union membership private + public. Still it’s not the majority.

“If the “capitalists” are looking to drive wages down, then why did google give a 10% across the board wage increase? Why did my employer do something similar?”

So you think you can cherry-pick two examples, and that’s an accurate sample which establishes a trend?

Here is a potential terrorist

MADISON, Wis. — Madison Police Chief Noble Wray said he wants some answers from Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker.

This comes after a prank phone call was released online on Wednesday, during which the caller, posing as conservative businessman and Walker supporter David Koch, asked Walker if he had thought about the possibility of planting people in the crowd to cause trouble during peaceful protests at the state Capitol during the past two weeks.

In response to prankster’s question, Walker said: “You know, well the — the only problem — because we thought about that … My only fear would be is that if there was a ruckus caused is that would scare the public into thinking the governor’s got to settle to avoid all these problems. Where I’ve said, ‘We can handle this. This is Madison, full of the ’60s liberals. Let ‘em protest.’

“… because we thought about that … My only fear would be is that if there was a ruckus..”

If Scott Walker and his gop buddies thought about and actually discussed this , that is a Criminal Conspiracy by definition at the Executive level even though they DIDN’T act upon it.

It has been a LONG time so take this with a grain of salt, but I believe the conspiracy statutes require that you take at least one physical step toward doing the action before it is illegal. So if you just talk about it and then someone prints out a map of the locations of cameras in public places so you can tell your not yet hired goons to avoid them, then you have something. But if all they did is think and maybe mention it in a meeting and decide against it, it isn’t a crime.

A conspiracy exists when two or more people form an agreement to do some act or refrain from doing some act. A conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime in and of itself, which means that conspiracy is charged as a crime separate and apart from the crime that the parties to the conspiracy conspired to commit. There are several reasons for a prosecutor to charge conspiracy, and despite the fact that the law defines conspiracy as “agreement” between two or more persons, only one person need intend to commit a crime out of the conspiracy.

Felony Offense
Under Wisconsin laws, conspiracy is a Class B Felony.

I’d say you mean the voting booth.

Unions are the only PIGS eating at the trough. Plenty of other gov percs people vote for.

I was just reading that Ireland has no property tax.

“I was just reading that Ireland has no property tax.”

You can’t get blood out of a turnip.

amsheeple …are you talking about the fact that if you get a public pension you don’t get Social Security ? But if you do put
in the quarters to Social Security your not barred from Social Security Benefits from what I understand . I’m sure there is a certain percentage of public workers that don’t put in the time
to get Social Security also ,but it would be interesting to see the
real stats on that Nationwide .

I still think one of the factors that drove up the costs of the
Public Union benefit packages Nation Wide was the health care costs ,rather than the salary portion of the package for most rank and file public workers . And ,I wonder why the debate doesn’t go to the glaring fact that private industry did not keep up with inflation or benefits wage wise like the public sector did . I’m sick of the debate that we can’t compete with China if we give good wages in the private sector . The point is we can set up any system we want .We can tax out-sourcing,we can tax out-manufacturing ,we can have proper trade balances and tariffs . We can bring back the 1.8 million jobs we lost to out-manufacturing by Multi-
National Companies in the last 20 years . We can tax the rich more if we want to put more money in the hands of the wage earner .

I just can’t see how one can debate the whole issue without looking at what happened to the entire picture of the loss of power of the private sector with wage and benefit decline .Its pretty strong that Companies can out-source that engineering job if your not willing to take the wage a Indian
would for instance ,in spite of whatever the cost of living is
in the USA . No talk about how much money was lost to these pension plans by the RE housing Ponzi Scheme or the fact that Industry underfunded the Pension Plans .

All big groups have Political power . Wall Street/Corporations has the money to influence ,and Public Unions have the numbers to influence .This lobbying power has become a great evil in a lot of ways because in a lot of instances it has nothing to do with a functional economy . The Multi-National Companies have been very successful in getting advantages that have crushed the USA private sector wage earner
power .

Look ,if inflation and price fixing raises the health care costs even more ,in 2 years they will be going for the next round of we can’t afford the Public sector benefits ,Than two years from that it will be we can’t afford the next increase in
costs ,because the health care machine raised the price another 20%.

You have health care tied into employment and there is no control over that factor these days because its based on
high profit margins for that monopoly which is a so-called
private industry . Private industry is already dropping their health care benefits or giving bad policies that isn’t really coverage . The health care bill didn’t seem to solve the problems of high cost of health care that breaking the back of every sector, private or public .

Every attack is taken out of context from the entire factors
that have created the crisis of lack of money .

Dear Housing Wizard, I think you misunderstood, those public employees who happen to work in a privet business and already have enough Social Security benefits and moved to Public companies pension system, will lose 2/3 of their Social Security benefits according to Mr. Reagane regulation.
I really believe that every U.S. citizen should get same benefits as all U.S. congressmen , Universal Healthcare and dignified retirement after 30-40 years of working, it is just became “land of opportunity” as one of you said, who ever succeeded and became a “winner” (usually those are people like Mr.Trump style crooks”) they will dictate that rest of the “loosers” who honestly work in their workplace will become slaves… that is what is going to happen if you abolish bargaining power of working class. I was small business owner myself close to my retirement but I know how things are working in a world were money can buy all the politicians and pour working class workers will live alone to be responsible for their life and their kids…

Look ,I’m on your side amsheeple . I knew they were going to go after Unions next / Hell I already got my private pension that wasn’t that big with no cost of living increase clause creamed and another one in BK , and by the way they wrote it up I might get pennies on the dollar .I have been creamed in every way in this aftermath of the Great Big Housing Bubble Ponzi scheme . I’m just fighting for other workers not getting
creamed . I look at the whole situation like they are just picking winners and losers and the Justification is ,we don’t have the
money . Really ,in truth I think we have had a Wall Street/Industrial Complex take over and that in large part is determining who the winners and losers are .
I think that Governor thought he was just going to rush this bill through with no opposition because he had the votes and there wouldn’t be talk about the entire bill and what he was trying to pull off .

I think what he is trying to pull off is the sell-off of public assets to private companies without a formal bidding proces. I think the union thing is sleight of hand.

I don’t understand why Tea Party folks are not up in arms about that. I don’t understand why that is not one of the amendments being proposed by the Wisconsin Assembly Democrats.

Exactly.

Perhaps you misunderstood my post. There’s plenty of money- the rich have it all.

The rich’s patsies are busy trying to convince us otherwise, though.

Combo,

Why is it that TRILLIONS of dollars are easily found, without any negotiation, when the financial sector (the ones who’ve destroyed our economy) demands it, but when regular working people expect to get what they’ve worked for and were promised in good faith, there’s “no money”?

Beats me. But it is what it is. Things are as they are.

There is not the money to back all the promises that were made. This seems to be the fact. And it doesn’t end with government pensions.

Of one fully understands this then he can spend his energy preparing for what is about to come down the chute.
Or he can spend his energy moaning and groaning about the issue.
His choice.

“Beats me. But it is what it is. Things are as they are.”

“Of one fully understands this then he can spend his energy preparing for what is about to come down the chute.”

Or maybe we could unite kust as a bunch of semi-literate workers did over 100 years ago and fight back against the robber barons, because if the robber barons have their way, there will be nothing we can do to “Prepare”. They will strip mine every last penny from us.

“Of one fully understands this then he can spend his energy preparing for what is about to come down the chute.
Or he can spend his energy moaning and groaning about the issue.
His choice.”

One can prepare, and yet still see that the rich have all the money that has supposedly gone poof.

And you moan and groan as much as any one else here.

Would your advice to our Founding Fathers have been ‘Look, the Brits own us, that’s just the way it is. Quitcher bellyaching’?

It wasn’t all that long ago that the rich was the group that millions yearned to join, as in everyone wanted to be the next Donald Trump. Now the rich are considered to be the bad guys. Lol.

I shouldn’t matter to anyone else as to who has money, it should only matter that he has enough money of his own to meet his needs. This should be his focus - his money, not somebody else’s.

“This should be his focus - his money, not somebody else’s.”

Yes, by all means ignore the fact that the simplest, most just solution to our financial problems is to increase the historically low taxes on the rich, the only group that has thrived in recent American history. And the only group that still gets its government benefits paid in full.

I don’t hate the rich. I don’t seek to destroy the rich. You say we need common sense. Well, common sense says the rich have all the money, that they have thrived in the recent economic order, and that they can afford higher taxes.

So common sense says, ‘increase taxes on the rich’. Not ’shut your eyes to reality’.

How much is enough for you. Just out of curiosity…what it the IRS’ top tax bracket?

It’s 35% and that’s before you pay fun things like SSI and Medicare taxes. It’s before you factor what states take in state income tax. It’s before you factor in what local governments take in for property and sales taxes.

combotechie

Combo, It’s hard for some of us to comprehend your view on this money/pension/wealth inequality thing. This is my impression of your stance on the subject and why it doesn’t make much sense in the context of our recent economic history. Where am I wrong?

Imagined dialog:

combo: there is no money to pay the pensions

Rio: Maybe we can tax the rich more

combo: I don’t worry about other people’s money

Rio: But they took it from the middle class the past 30 years in massive wealth redistribution and economic destruction to benefit the few.

combo: It is what it is

Rio: So we can change it back

combo: there is no money to pay the pensions

Rio: But what is this money anyway? It seems to me that plenty of money can be found when it’s “important” like the trillions to bail out the rich.

combo: It is what it is.

Rio: Ok, then we can either tax the rich way more or or create this money just like we did to bail out the rich who are richer now than ever.

combo: There is no money to pay the pensions

Rio: Because the rich stole our middle class money the past 30 years, THEN we bailed them out and now we can’t even take some of the money back from those who stole it and then took MORE of our money and our children’s money to be bailed out? They have all the money now.

combo: I don’t worry about other peoples money.

Rio: Even if they stole it from us??

combo: It is what it is. There is no money to pay the pensions.

“Why is it that TRILLIONS of dollars are easily found, without any negotiation, when the financial sector (the ones who’ve destroyed our economy) demands it, but when regular working people expect to get what they’ve worked for and were promised in good faith, there’s “no money”?”

By even posing the question you’re justifying wasteful government spending…you just wish that wasteful spending would have been helpful to you instead.

One thing seems clear: Banksters’ bonuses are far more sacrosanct to Republicans than are union pensions.

Combo, It’s hard for some of us to comprehend your view on this money/pension/wealth inequality thing.”

I bet because he’s older old people are fatalistic about things while young people throw rocks

see North Africa or the USA in the 1960’s

Rio: This is why the super rich are getting away with murder. Too many people believe as combo does.

I bet because he’s older old people are fatalistic about things while young people throw rocks

Cactus,
Look up “fatalistic”. Fatalistic does not mean ignoring plain truths staring one in the face while only acknowledging points that support one’s flawed argument.

Revisit today’s posts and tell me where I’m wrong in my above observation. And I came to the conclusion you were not “throwing rocks” at me.

“It’s 35% and that’s before you pay fun things like SSI and Medicare taxes. It’s before you factor what states take in state income tax. It’s before you factor in what local governments take in for property and sales taxes.”

But that’s BEFORE the deductions. And let me tell you, the rich have deductions you can only dream about.

The actually rate is +/-16% (depends on your accountant)

The really rich don’t care about Social Security taxes. They finish paying for it in January and it never bothers them again.

“The really rich don’t care about Social Security taxes. They finish paying for it in January and it never bothers them again.”

But they want to get their hands on OUR SS funds, so they can skim commissions and fees off of it while “investing” it for us.

and guess who are the largest users of government resources. such as legal protection of properties, law enforcement to protect property rights, infrastructure to keep this economy moving, etc. not you and I with a small house and a old car.

…which they complain about paying for!

But they want to get their hands on OUR SS funds, so they can skim commissions and fees off of it while “investing” it for us

Since when did “the rich” become synonymous with “Wall Street”?

I don’t disagree that wall street would love that. But I think that “the rich” is a considerable superset of WallSt.

Since when? Since, I dunno… 1773.

London Stock Exchange.

I don’t disagree that wall street would love that. But I think that “the rich” is a considerable superset of WallSt.
——————

drumminj,

“The rich” are, more and more, connected with Wall Street. Either they work on or with Wall Street, or they come from families who founded large corporations years ago, and now live off of the “investments” that the financiers oversee.

Far, far too many of “the rich” are not actually working people.

Both parties are beholden to the rich, but one seems more inclined to tax breaks for them.

So “green” tax credits given to multi-billion dollar companies isn’t being inclined to give the rich tax breaks?

It shouldn’t matter to anyone else as to who has money, it should only matter that he has enough money of his own to meet his needs.

This worked “theory” of yours worked well for “certain’ people in 1933 Germany Combo.

The formal name of the Enabling Act was Gesetz zur Behebung der Not von Volk und Reich (English: “Law to Remedy the Distress of People and Reich”).

And you believe that government spending will bring this “justice” you speak of. It’s never worked in the past but something must be different this time.

And you believe that government spending will bring this “justice” you speak of. It’s never worked in the past but something must be different this time.

I will state that a government redistribution of wealth to the poor and middle-class would bring a form of justice that is needed and lacking.

This redistribution would be in the form of tariffs, busting monopolies, much higher taxes on extreme wealth, extreme campaign finance reform, Canadian influenced tax funded universal health, and investment in small business.

And it is not even a redistribution of wealth but a Re-redistribution as this wealth was stolen from middle class by the super rich.

And yes, this HAS worked in the past in the USA.

I has not worked in the US. It’s created a short term stimulus only to kick the can down the road for paying for it. Chickens are coming home to roost and it’s only the loons on the left who don’t get it. Even those in the center are starting to figure this out.

I has not worked in the US.

Wrong. Do you have a basic grasp of American History? I do.

Redistribution of wealth in the first half of the 20th century and after the Great Depression worked to increase the poor and middle class’s wealth and in turn, created a powerful nation on all levels.

It did this through aggressive trust busting, (of monopolies) progressive taxation, tariffs, tough bank regulation (Glass–Steagall Act) pro-Union or at least not anti-union policies. It also did this by investing in regulatory agencies that had teeth to prosecute financial crimes and schemes designed to transfer wealth from the middle to the rich.

These policies kept an honest balance in our nation and were the basis of our middle class. When we started to deviate from these policies above we gutted our economy for the benefit of the rich.

Chickens are coming home to roost and it’s mainly the nutjobs on the right who don’t get it. Even those in the center are starting to figure this out.

Yes, the entitlements that are bankrupting us at this very moment worked well…short-term. I have a fine grasp on history.

Yes, the entitlements that are bankrupting us at this very moment worked well…short-term. I have a fine grasp on history.

Maybe you do have a grasp of history because you have not contradicted any of my factual points above.

Because anyone with a grasp of American History could not effectually contradict those points.

But then spouting AM radio talking points in the face of historical facts does not do justice to one’s “fine grasp of history”.

So how do you propose paying for digging out? You clearly didn’t contradict my statement that those entitlements are bankrupting us…and it’s not just us in the US either.

Bugs: “eh, could be Rio…”

http://memegenerator.net/Foghorn-Leghorn/ImageMacro/887752/Foghorn-Leghorn-boy-i-say-boy-I-think-yer-on-to-something.jpg

Redistribution of wealth in the first half of the 20th century and after the Great Depression worked to increase the poor and middle class’s wealth and in turn, created a powerful nation on all levels.

Chickens are coming home to roost and it’s mainly the nutjobs on the right who don’t get it

So how do you propose paying for digging out?

First of all, Fix healthcare and Medicare, the entitlement that will kill us. Transform to a universal healthcare system influenced by the Canadian model. Half the cost/better results. I’ve posted dozens of studies proving this point. See Canadian Health care wiki.

Means test Soc Security and raise the limit of income subject to its tax. (The super rich don’t pay squat in taxes compared to America’s glory days)

Then, through aggressive trust busting, (of monopolies) progressive taxation, tariffs, tough bank regulation (Glass–Steagall Act) pro-Union or at least not anti-union policies. Also invest in regulatory agencies that have teeth to prosecute financial crimes and schemes designed to transfer wealth from the middle to the rich. Gradually spend less on “defense”. Punish corporations that outsource American jobs.

As far as the Wisconsin type issue, I find this Forbes magazine article very interesting.

A Solution To The Wisconsin Standoff

http://www.forbes.com/2011/02/23/wisconsin-teacher-collective-bargaining-leadership-managing-standoff.html

Here’s a new, better way to handle public employee collective bargaining that’s fair to all sides.

Gov. Scott Walker is correct to try and corral the issue once and for all. These times call for change. However, there is a compromise to get there that does not require the state to vitiate collective bargaining rights. Collective bargaining is American. It is bigger than Republicans or Democrats. It should be bigger than politics. It should not be the baby that goes out with the bathwater, not if there is another way. And there is.

Good post RIO

“So how do you propose paying for digging out? You clearly didn’t contradict my statement that those entitlements are bankrupting us…and it’s not just us in the US either.”

Well, how about less welfare large corporations?

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1249465620080812

Almost half of all corporations doing business in this country, both foreign and domestic, pay no income taxes in any random year.

No tax breaks for sending jobs offshore.

This one is a double whammy. The corporation pays no tax and J6P doesn’t pay taxes because he doesn’t have job.

try running a business in countries not as law-friendly as the US: very *risky*

Excellent Excellent reminders Eco.

I will state that a government redistribution of wealth to the poor and middle-class would bring a form of justice that is needed and lacking.

And it is not even a redistribution of wealth but a Re-redistribution as this wealth was stolen from middle class by the super rich.
———————

Nailed it again, Rio.

Ok you guys I got the solution . I don”t care anymore . Lets take the new found profits from the Banks and Investment Banks and put it to the short-falls in the State budgets . In addition lets have a 10 year penalty tax on anyone making over say 300k a year ,that should bring in a lot of bucks .Anybody who was a middleman on CDO’s gets a 10 year retroactive tax on their personal wealth of 50% (Hank Paulson and Mozillo your really going to get creamed by that one ) Ok ,lets put some really
high tax on any outsourcing jobs,raise the tariffs and boy look at how the multi-national companies will scream over that one .
Lets raise the Social Security tax to 5 million ,I know it isn’t
fair ,but I promise you this is for the Fat Cats . If that isn’t enough money ,than let me know because I have other
ways to get it .
You say this would be unfair and a total violation of Contract law. I don’t care because you took the taxpayers money in the same fashion with the Banks bail-outs with no regard to Justice or fairness ,so who cares ,we just need the money ,isn’t that what the Banks said . It’s based on need now ,not the law . The law was ignored with the original bail-outs that has amounted to trillions . We need the bail-outs and a big gun because we don’t want to go BK . It’s just based on need like the TARP requests were ,that way we don’t have to
suffer . But bottom line just taking you Fat Cats money ,would be Justice ,since you Cats were the Culprits that created all the loss anyway ,so who cares . We don’t have capitalism anymore ,we have a Wall Street Multi-National Industrial complex takeover of the government . If we don’t take it from you ,your going to take it from us until every last USA working class Citizen is poor ,so who cares . Besides
you have created a National Security issue ,because your games are de-stabilizing the everything .By the way ,anything we do we get immunity . he he he he .

I don’t care you guys . The moral hazard of what was done
in response to the housing scheme and other inequities that
screwed up the USA renders all actions taken as Justified .

Dead? Nah. Discredited, that will do just fine.

The division of power lies between labor and capital.

IMHO, ALL labor should be unionized. It’s the only way the working person can amass enough power to challenge the capitalists (those whose income is earned from other people’s labor/investments, vs. workers).

The capitalists are always trying to grow their power and wealth, and having union members in the government helps keep them in check — otherwise, the private entities could have even more influence than they do today.

Also, having union employment in the govt sector provides a floor for wages and benefits in the private sector. If the disparity in compensation between private and public work is too great, private sector workers will migrate to the public sector, forcing the private sector employers to compete with the public sector employers. This puts a floor under *everyone’s* wages, not just those of union members.

How often do you use the term “imperialist dogs”?

That medicinal marijuana must be some good stuff.

Why do New Yorkers have a reputation of being rude?

Not rude, so much as assholes.

It seems that jumping sharks is making you irritable, Prof.

Hell love him - let’s have a NYC meetup!

Hell love him - let’s have a NYC meetup!

You should do it. You might get to meet two posters in one person.

“It seems that jumping sharks is making you irritable, Prof.”

Pension theft in the name of ‘protecting the taxpayer’ after stealing hundreds of billions from tax payers to save banksters’ sacrosanct bonuses is making me irritable.

Pension theft in the name of ‘protecting the taxpayer’

How is it “theft”?

If a company goes bankrupt and the bondholders don’t get paid, is that “theft”?

How is the promise to an employee of a pension fundamentally different than the promise to a bondholder by a corporation?

Sometimes people and corporations make promises they can’t keep. That does not make it theft.

You mean those pensions that were never negotiated in good faith to begin with?

If a company goes bankrupt and the bondholders don’t get paid, is that “theft”?

Obviously it was determined the answer to your question was YES in the case of BofA, JPM, Citi, GoldmanS, AIG, Wall STreet, etc etc etc etc

The government and bankers wanted to prevent this “theft” therefore TARP.

Because “theft” is really bad when you’re big.

Also, having union employment in the govt sector provides a floor for wages and benefits in the private sector. If the disparity in compensation between private and public work is too great, private sector workers will migrate to the public sector, forcing the private sector employers to compete with the public sector employers. This puts a floor under *everyone’s* wages, not just those of union members.”

having high wages in the private sector puts a floor under Public workers wages , maybe public sector workers should have thought about that as private sector was getting outsourced ?

“This puts a floor under *everyone’s* wages, not just those of union members.”

Current evidence would suggest this is not the case.

“why should they exist?”

Because there are crappy, biased bosses in the public sector as well as in the private sector.

“Not rude, so much as assholes.”

LOL!

I’ve yet to meet a working whiskey sponge who’s pleasant before happy hour.

“The division of power lies between labor and capital.”

So as a taxpayer I’m a capitalist! Yippee, I made it!

charlietango, you probably should live in a county with well entrenched board of supervisors who gets away with murder because majority of their constituents keeps on voting for them year after year.

‘If a company goes bankrupt and the bondholders don’t get paid, is that “theft”?’

Excellent point! I suspect in many cases, bankruptcy is often a smoking gun for financially engineered, carefully concealed theft that occurred before the company went bankrupt.

Excellent point!

You concede that, but then go off on another issue entirely.

Filing bankruptcy and defaulting on the bonds is not “theft” in and of itself. Sure, if there were other crimes committed, it could be. That’s a separate issue entirely, and pure speculation.

Is defaulting on bonds intrinsically theft?

Comment by cactus
2011-02-24 11:29:11
Also, having union employment in the govt sector provides a floor for wages and benefits in the private sector. If the disparity in compensation between private and public work is too great, private sector workers will migrate to the public sector, forcing the private sector employers to compete with the public sector employers. This puts a floor under *everyone’s* wages, not just those of union members.”

having high wages in the private sector puts a floor under Public workers wages , maybe public sector workers should have thought about that as private sector was getting outsourced ?
——————–

cactus,

I’ve long advocated for private sector unions, and have always made a point of buying US-made goods whenever possible. I was warning, and ranting, and raving years ago when outsourcing was picking up steam in the 1980s.

The unions fought against “free trade,” but made a big mistake by supporting Clinton (NAFTA).

Why do you think public sector workers don’t support private sector workers/unions? It was the private sector folks who I know who were talking up the benefits of “globalization” and union-busting.

Where did YOU stand on these issues, decades ago?

when TARP was a bill in the legislature it was the republic at work.

when it got passed it became a theft

As much as it pains me to say it, I disagree.

The whole point of the republic is not to be a pure democracy. The people elect representatives to represent them. The intent is not to have a popular referendum on every issue.

Certainly the will of the people was not followed, but I think one could fairly argue that the republic functioned within its design.

agreed,

not a theft by the technical definition.

i think of all redistribution of wealth as theft. TARP is/was redistribution on steroids.

i think of all redistribution of wealth as theft.

So do you consider a progressive tax system as theft? It’s most definitely a form of wealth distributions - take from those that make more to provide benefits (and sometimes direct payments!) to those with “less” (not always - sometimes they just have many more children)

i not only see it as theft i see it as waist too.

without govt redistribution of wealth (don’t forget most is waisted and a little is redistributed) we have people and families and churches and communities taking care of the needy without all the waist.

perhaps the biggest theft is in the loss of opportunity, without forced redistribution prosperity occurs and opportunities multiply for all classes.

without forced redistribution prosperity occurs and opportunities multiply for all classes.

This is a total falsehood proved false by 40 years of its implementation and it’s failure to increase opportunities for all classes.

We tried it people it did not work. It ruined us.

We’ve had a massive reduction in “forced redistribution” the past 40 years. The taxes for the super-rich have plummeted.

What did this do? It REDISTRIBUTED our wealth to the rich. Duhhhhhhhhh. The wealth is now so concentrated that we have less opportunity than ever.

To say otherwise is an affront to reality. It’s math. It happened. And now they even have charts and graphs and stuff. Dang.

We’ve had a massive reduction in “forced redistribution” the past 40 years. The taxes for the super-rich have plummeted.

I would very much disagree with this. Upper middle class folks aren’t rich. Their wealth has been redistributed all along.

And the wealth of the “rich” continues to be redistributed as well.

I would very much disagree with this.

If you can read a chart showing America’s historical wealth disparity and understand math and not be biased there is no way you could disagree and I do believe you can read a chart and understand math.

Upper middle class folks aren’t rich.

This has no bearing on my quote: The taxes for the super-rich have plummeted.

And the wealth of the “rich” continues to be redistributed as well.

Please read this carefully. All taxes “redistribute wealth” Even dirt poor pay many taxes so if you are using paying taxes as your definition of “redistributing” then even the poor’s taxes are “redistributed”. But that’s not the grand issue of redistributing. We’re not talking semantics here.

The important issue is wealth redistribution as a percent of the total compared to the past. As a percent of the total wealth, the super-rich’s wealth has increased markedly the past 40 years while the poor and middle class’s wealth has declined.

But not only has the middle-class and poor’s wealth declined as a percent of the total, but their actual wealth, when adjusted for inflation has declined the past 30 years while the rich’s actual wealth has skyrocketed. The is the Macro definition of the redistribution of wealth and it’s this definition that applies to the problems that great wealth disparity causes.

If you can read a chart showing America’s historical wealth disparity and understand math and not be biased there is no way you could disagree

Just because there is wealth disparity does not mean wealth redistribution is going on a considerable scale, which seem to be your assertion.

You seem to equate wealth re-distribution with more equitable wealth distribution at any given time. I think this is a flawed measure, as you could take 50% of the wealth from a person and hand it to another, yet the receiver of the money would take actions resulting in that money ending right back up in the pocket of the original person. Wealth re-distribution by the government is still going on.

Just because there is wealth disparity does not mean wealth redistribution is going on a considerable scale.

Thank you. That single statement, in spite of the current rapidly growing wealth inequality, falling wages and the fact that wealth inequality is more extreme now than since the 1920’s displays your lack of understanding of the subject matter and/or insurmountable bias. So be it.

But it doesn’t really matter much to me what you think drumminj. You are a single individual whose mind is apparently inflexible on the matter. But to convince you is not the goal. I’m sure that in the battle of the minds of people on the fence more will agree with my posts than yours.

I try hard to present sources, charts, graphs and facts and reason in my posts and I sometimes even go to a dictionary.

Your posts rarely deal with factual historical comparisons of this particular subject, they don’t show much ability to comprehend realities that conflict with your biases and you don’t even seem to understand definitions such “wealth redistribution”.

Fine. But if you want to produce some facts and sourced historical comparisons on the subject, I’ll be happy to consider them.

Wasn’t it bug-eyed Pelosi, front and center, pushing hardest for TARP?

You can’t push the Democrats’ agenda on this board and then slam TARP, a program that could not have passed without their support.

Cheney-Shrub Shadow Leadership Echo Event #86: “Hurry!, Hurry!, Hurry! or else,…this sucker could all go down!”

what about the fact that each side will, in general, oppose what the others like, regardless of the issue.

Some of these things are already being done, m2p.

I know Ca Renter, but I wanted Polly to see that some of her wish list was in the new report.

Glad to hear you came out okay, Mr. Bubble.

Which is why crude traders need to take delivery of the final product. Futures are fine and dandy when you’re just trading paper…you can command as much as you want…after all, it’s only paper. If you might get stuck with a few million barrels of the stuff things might be different.

I don’t remember them saying that. Where did you hear that?

Drill retards drill!

I think that the Brazil story is about oil and sugar cane, and the EIA agrees:………2% renewable energy says it all.

Of course oil and sugar cane are very important to Brazilian energy independence. According to the EIA they supply 50% of Brazil’s energy.

But, how can “2% renewable energy say it all” when it says nothing of the 34% of Brazilian energy from Hydro and says nothing about the very real intense energy conservation Brazilians practice because of very high energy taxes?

So actually “2% renewable energy” does not “say it all”.

+1

-2

“Consumers could not afford alternative energy under Carter and they cannot now”
Maybe not, but that’s not relevant to the discussion of how we power our cars. We CHOSE as consumers to buy gas guzzlers for the last thirty years. Carter’s main theme was conserving, he was just the wrong guy to get the message out and have it stick. The sweaters in the White House didn’t help, I’m afraid.

As far as our cars go, we have options. Natural gas is domestic, abundant, and cheap compared to gasoline. It’s price may be subject to fluctuations too–but we wouldn’t be screwed at the pump every time the Ayatollah sneezes if we were more diversified. And I’m not saying get rid of gasoline cars–they should be part of the mix. Plug-in hybrids, some running on CNG, some on gasoline, some diesel, some straight electric. Even if charging them uses coal, some nuclear, some renewable– Diverse is good and makes us flexible. And mainly, gets us out from under the thumb of the unstable Middle East. But I’m afraid gas will have to get to 6 dollars a gallon for us to collectively plan ahead and make the right choice.

I want more CNG cars!

Consumers could not afford alternative energy under Carter and they cannot now. All the alternative energy sources are still much more expensive than the fossil fuels.

Brazil:

Cost of Gallon of Gas: $6

Amount invested
developing
alternative energy: Billions

Years spent
developing
alternative energy: 30

The feeling and
economic realities
of being energy independent: Priceless

The US could have and should have done it too. Carter wanted to do it.

Unlimited oil, no. Sufficient oil to drop prices at the pump, yes. Consumers could not afford alternative energy under Carter and they cannot now. All the alternative energy sources are still much more expensive than the fossil fuels

1. Conservation is cheaper in the long run. Speed limits, low rolling resistance tires, smaller cars all cost the same or less. This is in fact exactly what happened under Carter, just ask Honda and VW. Mass transit much cheaper in the long run. Living downtown is cheaper.
2. OIl prices subsidized by military so make sure to plug military expendatures into your equation.
3. Both California and Spain helped kill their economies with expensive alternative energy. I’d like to see the #’s on this. I’ll bet the money spent was a tiny tiny fx of the overall budget. If the dollar collapses and oil and electricity go to the moon these people will be smiling from ear to ear. They purchased 20 years of energy at todays prices.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/energy-us-should-not-emulate-spain

The amount of money spent has gone up since this story and economy is only worse. I have no problem with conservation but people naturally want to save money so when it makes sense they do it. I do not want the government to manage home prices or energy and have it force people to live where they don’t want etc. GM sells about 300 volt cars per month. Clearly, not wanted at price they are selling for, even with a $7500 per car government subsidy. The free market will send a price signal about the right policy and people should be free to drive a SUV if they pay for their own gas. Brazil achieve energy independence with cane sugar and off shore drilling. United States can achieve it now with offshore drilling, ANWR and unconventional sources of fossil fuels with alternatives where they are cost efficient. We would have a military whether we were importing oil or not and would have still have to deal with Islamic fanatics, thus do not know how you can price the military into the price. Right now the Green Industry is just crony capitalism. I suspect many of the comments are being made by people feeding at the government trough.

Brazil achieve energy independence with cane sugar and off shore drilling.

Actually Brazil became energy independent before they discovered most of this new oil, (much of which is waiting to be extracted). In addition Brazil’s has massive taxes on gas and energy that force people to conserve. Tiny cars, no A/C etc. Lots of Hydro/electric too..

Brazil bit the bullet, invested and conserved.

The Washington Examiner?? You’ve got to be kidding.

“When it came to the editorial page, Anschutz’s instructions were explicit — he ‘wanted nothing but conservative columns and conservative op-ed writers,’ said one former employee.”

p.s I do believe in CNG cars and if the Obama adminstration wanted to jump start their production I would not have a great problem, if it was limited in the amount and timeframe. The free market has priced NG and based on that they do make sense but we have the problem that we need filling stations to make people buy them but they will not come until people buy them. I can justify limited government involvement in such a case. The volt car is not even close to being economical.

“GM sells about 300 volt cars per month. Clearly, not wanted at price they are selling for”

They’re selling every single one they make. Or have you seen them piled up at your local Chevy dealer?

There’s actually a waiting list while they continue to ramp up production.

Why is it that people like you never bother to check facts?

For the links above, I think that the Brazil story is about oil and sugar cane, and the EIA agrees: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Brazil/Background.html

2% renewable energy says it all.

As far as the comment about my previous source google Spain and solar energy and find out if the facts in the story are wrong. They are not. Facts are stubborn and if they are presented accurately it does not matter if Fox or MSNBC is the source.

I do check facts, I also think. GM has hyped the car, Offered 3 year $350 a month leases and received many government orders all to create the illusion of success. The fact that they are only producing the car in batches of hundreds is because the true demand will not justify more. I don’t buy the production bottle neck. They are no more credible than a real estate agent telling you that another person has a bid in better buy now.

They are no more credible than a real estate agent telling you that another person has a bid in better buy now.

Agreed.

And, sorry I can’t recall who posted that great story about the “better bid” ploy. But the poster’s advice was to walk away from the conversation. Then wait for the real estate agent to come swooping back in a couple of weeks because that better bid fell through.

“2% renewable energy says it all.”

I call BS.

From the EIA link: “The largest share of Brazil’s total energy consumption comes from oil and other liquids (50 percent, including ethanol),”

The only reason renewables appears so low (stated as 2%)is that they lumped ethanol in with oil in the “liquid” category.

Their sugar-cane-based ethanol is highly renewable; sugar-cane grows back every year.

“The fact that they are only producing the car in batches of hundreds is because the true demand will not justify more.”

If that was true they would be piled up in dealerships with big rebates (like those pickup trucks). They are still ramping up production, which is planned to reach 10,000 this year and 60,000 in 2012. Its only for sale in select markets at this point. Sheesh.

You’re just one of those belly achers who hates everything GM does. It the Volt was a Toyota you would probably be singing its praises.

gm could not even supply the demand from ge alone to replace their fleet.

Using that criteria any new car is overpriced. Yet people buy millions of new cars every year.

chearper, yes. riskier, yes. worth it? i would rather get the volt.

The problems stretch back far beyond the prior administration. Obama’s problem is no solutions to the problems, only a political agenda. He ran as someone without an agenda who would work with everyone and have a wide open government. It’s been an epic failure as he’s shown himself to be business as usual.

I’m already seeing the rage directed towards Republicans “who haven’t done anything since they gained control of the House.” The hollow words and telling actions of Boehner and Co., the corporatist’s henchmen, will doom their party come 2012.

Spot on Grizzly. The reels of rope are very large and they’re spinning fast. The republitards are too stupids to realize it….. yet.

they promised jobs. just did not specify whether to increase or decrease or replace. very true to their words.

No transfer private sector leverage to wage earners and savers.

L-E-V-E-R-A-G-E

Dang, when Hwy types that it comes out: F-R-E-E_C-R-E-D-I-T

Other than the fact the person who had the townhome was paying property taxes over those 7 years, might have had the toilet fixed, perhaps some painting, upgrades…in the grand scheme of things, they probably said good-by to a lot of dough.

I’ve owned my home for 10 years (well, almost owned, the mortgage is almost gone) and when you factor in all the other stuff you end up paying for, it’s amazing anyone in their right mind can tell you owning real estate is a financial Magical Happy Candy Land.

Plus I think the place was empty for most of the time they had it on the market.

:thumbsup: HBB brothers and sisters.

What a joke. You really think the public unions are a counter balance to the wealthy?

There is a big difference between a public union and a private union.

What will be the counterbalance to the wealthy if the unions are destroyed?

Do you honestly think YOU are going to benefit from this?

There IS NO COUNTER BALANCE to PUBLIC unions right now. They are destroying every city/county/state they infest.

PRIVATE UNIONS are completely different and no one is trying to destroy them (except themselves if they crush their own businesses).

The MARKET counter balances private unions.

You calling me “wealthy”?

Yes, the unions ARE a counterbalance to the wealthy.

Do you think private sector workers are going to benefit from the demise of unions? How? Do you think any “tax savings” would end up in your pocket? (And I doubt there will be any savings…the money will just be shifted to the private sector financiers who will use it to speculate around the world, not create jobs here.)

You really think the public unions are a counter balance to the wealthy?

+1. Exactly my reaction.

the money will just be shifted to the private sector financiers who will use it to speculate around the world, not create jobs here.

please explain how that would happen. How would tax dollars collected (let’s consider this at the state level, which is what is currently being protested) end up in the pockets of the “private sector financiers”?

“There is a big difference between a public union and a private union.”

Wow…. someone is finally catching on.

Exeter, I have no idea what your comment means. Please elaborate. Are we agreeing on something that is not housing related? I think that is one of the signs of the apocalypse.

We agree/disagree on alot of things but who cares?

“Public unions” aren’t unions at all. They’re associations. And they have entirely different (not good nor bad) rules from unions where a large contracting company calls for steamfitters, tin knockers, millwrights, etc. One thing they share in common and work to the advantage of employers is that it relieves the employer from negotiating pay/benefits with every last employee.

dm, see what happened to wisconsin, the balance budget went to tax cut. now they have deficit. and the public union workers need to pay up. this will be repeated over and over.

‘To many the housing bubble still isn’t apparent’

The DallasNews editorial by Danielle DiMartino has this headline, “High stakes won’t allow us to admit housing bubble.” “The powers that be insist there’s no housing bubble. They have to, mass delinquencies and foreclosures are simply not an option, not with the risks built into the mortgage-finance system.”

http://thehousingbubble.blogspot.com/2005/04/admitting-bubble-not-option.html

“The FDIC flip-flop was revisited by this mortgage blog, with a few new facts. “The Corporation which insures and to an extent regulates the nations’ banks has good reason to hope that it won’t soon encounter the kind of real estate downturn that most recently occurred in 1990-1993.”

http://thehousingbubble.blogspot.com/2005/05/fdic-report-revisited.html

“Not everyone is worried about risky loans being made to marginal borrowers. Congress is trying to figure out how to get even more people on the gallows, er, ladder. “For some first-time home buyers, it is a tougher hurdle than coming up with the down payment. These buyers are what lenders call ‘unscoreables,’ or they have such ‘thin’ credit files, their credit scores are abysmally low.”

“Congress took up this issue for the first time May 12, when a House committee conducted a hearing on ways to identify and use alternative data that might help gauge underserved consumers’ creditworthiness. Rep. Michael Castle estimated that ‘35 million to 50 million people’ in this country ‘may not have a full credit reporting history’, or they may have none at all. Yet large numbers of those consumers pay their bills on time and should be treated as solid credit candidates.”

“After explaining several methods of finding credit history where it doesn’t exist, the writer concludes, “Tools are available. Those who truly want to provide home loans to credit-worthy borrowers need only give them a try.”

http://thehousingbubble.blogspot.com/2005/05/congress-searching-for-ways-to-lower.html

“The gut-less US congress will be remembered for it’s role in creating the housing bubble. It appears that the lack of courage will continue as the economy sails off the cliff. “Legislation to be debated Wednesday to overhaul regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac has been changed to allow the mortgage giants to buy higher-cost loans in pricey markets.”

“It would also allow Fannie and Freddie to increase the percentage of the secondary mortgage market that they serve, challenging competitors who now operate in the so-called nonconforming market.”

“This blog has criticized the supposed ‘independent’ Federal Reserve for it’s failure to take away the punch-bowl. But there is no question the elected representatives have failed us miserably as well. How can they ratchet up the borrowing at a time like this?”

“Some lawmakers are reluctant to curb the holdings because they create liquidity in the mortgage market. ‘The last thing any lawmaker wants to be accused of is killing the goose that laid the golden egg in our housing market,’” said Jaret Seiberg.”

http://thehousingbubble.blogspot.com/2005/05/congress-wants-this-bubble-not-reform.html

“High stakes won’t allow us to admit housing bubble.”

Says it all right there. And from 2005.

As I said. They. Knew.

2005? What else was special about that year? Oh yeah, bankruptcy “reform.”

Check out that FedCake babe who comments on MarketWatch!

Did you read the text above the second photo? It says the sign was left behind in a snowbank- the picture of someone holding it is not a picture of the person who supposedly carried it. And his back is turned anyway.

And even if it’s real (which I now tend to doubt- why no photos of it at the event?), so what? It’s one amateur sign, not the professionally designed website of a national politician.

And even if it’s real (which I now tend to doubt- why no photos of it at the event?), so what? It’s one amateur sign, not the professionally designed website of a national politician.

Well, let’s use those “following the thread” skills you learned yesterday.

Sammy posted a link referencing the comments of a single individual about using live ammunition against the protesters.

I posted an image of a single sign suggesting shooting/using live ammunition against the governor. There has been no association made with SarahPAC’s website.

You’ll also note that I never made any comments of equivalence. In fact, my post was simply supporting Sammy’s about unraveling, showing calls for violence on both sides.

“and on the other side of it”

“showing calls for violence on both sides.”

Sounds like moral equivalence to me!

I followed Sammy’s link to a story about a deputy state attorney general who called for using live ammunition on peaceful protesters.

Your link was to a pitiful homemade sign which the morons who faked it couldn’t even get anyone to hold and look at the camera.

It was, as I stated, a pitiful attempt at moral equivalence, even if the sign was real- which I seriously doubt.

Nice if they have husbands to support their “hobby” of teaching. Not so nice if you’re trying to support a family.

Hahaha - Bright Horizons. My wife and I looked into one here in DC. With our two year old son and a new daughter on the way, the grand total would be around $3,000/month. They play the “You have to be accepted into our program” card, but when we told them no, they kept calling asking why we didnt want to join. “Was it the facilities? The teachers? The atmosphere”

No morons, its the price. Instead we went with a stay at home Mom who is flexible with our schedule and is a real sweetheart - plus I’d rather give my money to her than some “Tot Drop”.

BTW - If anyone wanted to start up a business, open
a daycare center in DC.

Not so nice if you’re trying to support a family.

maybe they shouldn’t have had kids if they can’t afford it.

No one is entitled to a job that will support whatever family/hobbies/lifestyle they want.

And because you don’t have two dimes to rub together you want everyone else to be as poor as you…. It’s time you pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

Durmminj,
Don’t tell that to the right-wing Catholics and evangelicals. They will label you a Hollywood liberal for saying people shouldn’t have kids if they can’t afford it.

“maybe they shouldn’t have had kids if they can’t afford it.

No one is entitled to a job that will support whatever family/hobbies/lifestyle they want.”

Can’t you just see these tasseled-loafer wearing banksters with concubines and seraglios just pumping out the kids once they are the only ones who can “afford” it like the great Khans that they are. J6P can go buy a silk spank sock.

Childlessness: priceless.

Taste it, po’ folk!

Childlessness: priceless.

In my own life, I agree with the above sentiment. I’ve never had any kids.

However, if you want to have kids, go right ahead. Knock yourselves out. It’s not up to me to stop you.

Can’t you just see these tasseled-loafer wearing banksters with concubines and seraglios just pumping out the kids once they are the only ones who can “afford” it

Let’s see, we have exeter with his regularly scheduled ad hominem attacks, and now we have reductio ad absurdum. Anyone have bingo yet?

Childlessness: priceless.

and on this subject…

http://www.explosm.net/comics/2336/

Slim –
No offense intended. I was joking that the rank and file might be “priced out forever” w.r.t. kids if the corporatists have their way. Just because I just had a bambino, it won’t make me one of those people who think that life is not complete without a lil rug rat, yadda yadda. I never thought that I’d have a kid. He is pretty friggin’ cute though!

drumminj –
Fair point. My comment was meant to be a humorous harangue, not a well-reasoned argument. You will know the difference. I would like to do a study concerning tasseled loafer and/or golf visor wearing as being directly proportional to the wearer’s d-baggery…

No offense intended.

No offense taken, MrBubble!

Conflating truth and facts with personal attacks is a new intellectual low…. even for a right wing crazy talker like drum beater J.

Mr Bubble ,good going .I guess your not getting any sleep …right ?

ZZZZZZZZ…..

“The problem with that is they can discriminate in their hiring. Not Catholic? Sorry, you can’t work here. Same for other religious schools.”

Its true that religious schools are the only private school choice in a lot of areas. However if you are willing to expand your search, there really are lots of non-secular private schools out there. Think: Montessori, Waldorf, gifted programs, plus hybrids like charter and magnet schools, etc.

Actually, a lot of Catholic schools will hire non-Catholics. Same with Jewish schools hiring non-Jews. But if you are of the same “flavor” you better be a good example of that flavor. So a Catholic teacher at a Catholic school better not be too far along the “lapsed” scale.

I know what he’s talking about. Them, and Texans (or should they be considered one and the same?).

For whatever reason, they won’t admit they’ve run into problems, until it blows up in their face, or the situation is totally unsalvageable. And the reason it blows up, is because of the corners they’ve cut to make cost/schedule.

Have your airplane modified/painted/interior refurbished in Texas at your own risk.

You have an excellent idea there! How about illegal teachers teaching the illegal kiddies? On their own dime! They might even want to do that in their own country due to cheaper cost of living. You have my support 100% on this initiative!

“Your “complexion for protection” may not save you this time.”

Lol, your arguements and logal are too complex for most posters on this board.

It amazes me how much time people on this board spend on complaining about illegals, but yet, having nothing to say about the AMERICAN citizens and AMERICAN businesses that continue to hire illegals.

It amazes me how much time people on this board spend on complaining about illegals

actually, the conversation here has been about unions. You and spook are the ones introducing illegals into the conversation.

Thus the basis for NYCBoy’s incredulity.

In previous threads, when illegals have come up, the ire is most definitely directed towards those that hire them, as well as the lack of enforcement by the government.

Keep throwing those strawmen out there, though.

“In previous threads, when illegals have come up, the ire is most definitely directed towards those that hire them, as well as the lack of enforcement by the government.”

I call bullsh*t. I read this blog everyday, and I have yet to see any explicit comments or anger directed to the AMERICAN BUSINESSES who hire illegals. Furthermore, lets clarify your vague comment ” the lack of enforcement by the government”. Everyone is who complains about the lack of enforcement believes that the government is not doing enough to KEEP THE ILLEGALS out, but NO complaining about the lack of action in regards to the government going after and FINING, JAILING, and SHUTTING down the businesses who hired illegal immigrants.

The solution is plain as day: if there are no jobs for them, they will NOT come to the US.

I call bullsh*t. I read this blog everyday, and I have yet to see any explicit comments or anger directed to the AMERICAN BUSINESSES who hire illegals.

Well then you should do a better job of reading the comments here.

but NO complaining about the lack of action in regards to the government going after and FINING, JAILING, and SHUTTING down the businesses who hired illegal immigrants.

Again, you should read more closely. There most definitely have been comments about this.

I read this blog everyday, and I have yet to see any explicit comments or anger directed to the AMERICAN BUSINESSES who hire illegals.

I’ve seen comments on this blog directed towards the American Businesses who hire illegals MK.

I just posted a rather lengthy comment about employers of illegal immigrants in my “how to save California” thread ~two days ago.

“Your “complexion for protection” may not save you this time.

ahh yes, it’s now a racial issue too?”

Always has been a “racial” issue. If most of these “illegals” were White Europeans no one on this board would be complaining…..

Well, it is, considering LaRaza and other similar groups have done a bang-up job at co-opting all the laws, rules, regulations, money and rhetoric originally meant for the benefit of African Americans. Yep, that misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment has been a real bonanza, and how.

“If most of these “illegals” were White Europeans no one on this board would be complaining…..”

People complained like mad about the Irish, Italians, etc when they arrived in major waves.

Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-02-24 11:12:04

“People complained like mad about the Irish, Italians, etc when they arrived in major waves.”

Ok, and what did they do?

They joined THE Union.

Yeah,

they became accepted as white people right?

How did they do that?

All this anti union talk may help people better understand what a union is,

and what a union isn’t.

Are you sure you want to go there?

they became accepted as white people right?

dude, you have a serious chip on your shoulder/persecution context.

No one here is looking at this in terms of race other than you. Perhaps you should think about why that is…

persecution contextcomplex

“If most of these “illegals” were White Europeans no one on this board would be complaining…..”

“People complained like mad about the Irish, Italians, etc when they arrived in major waves.”

Yea, that was over 100 years ago! Nobody, I repeat NOBODY, is complaining about the White illegals coming in this country now. Illegal immigration is painted as a Latino problem, even though illegal immigrants come from all over the world. Infact the 3rd and 4th largest groups of illegals come from India and the Philippines.

“No one here is looking at this in terms of race other than you. Perhaps you should think about why that is…”

Because he has no OTHER CHOICE. As Black person, you have to consider the racial aspects to EVERYTHING AROUND YOU, cause if you don’t, you will suffer (i.e. how to act around police, i.e. how to be assertive without being threatening, etc., etc.). White people have the PRIVILEGE, not to consider race, because White is considered normal or non-racial.

Comment by drumminj
2011-02-24 11:48:10
they became accepted as white people right?

dude, you have a serious chip on your shoulder/persecution context.

No one here is looking at this in terms of race other than you. Perhaps you should think about why that is…

I did think about and I addressed it yesterday:

An excerpt from Spook’s post yesterday:

“Its not that black people aren’t smart; it has more to do with an emotional “retardation” that leads us to seek acceptance/valadation in a decaying corrupt system maintained by a certain class of white people.

See drumminj, you are trying to do this exact thing to me right here on this board but it ain’t working because Im not seeking your acceptance/valadation like many black people are.

Sucks don’t it?

Get used to it cause im not the only one.

“Always has been a “racial” issue. If most of these “illegals” were White Europeans no one on this board would be complaining…”

Is everyone on this board white? I’m pretty sure they aren’t, but are all the white people on this board racist? Is it possible to be white and against uncontrolled illegal immigration and NOT be a racist? It gets old when people I’ve never met and know literally nothing about me tell me I’m racist solely because I have 2 white parents.

you are trying to do this exact thing to me right here on this board

So you claim.

Clearly my motivation has to do with some racial issue rather than, oh, I don’t know, trying to discuss the actual topic at hand in a productive manner rather than introducing irrelevant issues.

And rather than address my comments on their value, you try to associate me with a group (way to assume my ethnic background, btw) and then attack that group rather than my comments on their merit.