The Housing Bubble

“What really happened was projects that might have happened over the next four years got pulled forward into two years. Sound familiar?”

Sounds very familiar — in fact, sounds just like the effect of the $8K home buyer’s tax credit in pulling two year’s worth of demand forward over one year (Spring 2009-Spring 2010). Don’t expect many new end-users buyers to be in the housing market until after 2012, at least…

Very interesting analysis, Griz. Thanks.

Hi, Polly! My gut tells me that China’s printing press makes Bernanke’s look like a toy. If anyone is going Zimbabwe, it’s China. Just look at the inflation they’re battling right now, and that’s with cooked numbers. They’re destroying their own ability to compete in the worldwide low-cost manufacturing arena, as the rise in prices is already showing up in their exports. Their propensity to treat workers like slaves buys them some time, but they’ll eventually pay the piper. China’s massive boom was nothing but a cheap money lie, engineered by a flood of cash, just as our real estate bubble was.

Check out this article from the New York times from a little over a month ago, particularly the graph at the left hand side which shows the parabolic increase in their money supply. Then, couple that with their tendency to lie like a rug to allow your imagination to grasp how dire the situation likely is. From the article:

BEIJING — When garment buyers from New York show up next month at China’s annual trade shows to bargain over next autumn’s fashions, many will face sticker shock.

Though many Chinese are earning higher salaries, the government has become worried that rising inflation could lead to social unrest.

“They’re going to go home with 35 percent less product than for the same dollars as last year,” particularly for fur coats and cotton sportswear, said Bennett Model, chief executive of Cassin, a Manhattan-based line of designer clothing. “The consumer will definitely see the price rise.”

Inflation has arrived in China. And after Tuesday’s release of crucial financial statistics by China’s central bank, few economists expect Beijing officials to be able to tame rising prices any time soon.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/business/global/12inflate.html

Even more good stuff. Thanks again.

“indepedent from foreign oil”

That is the biggest canard.

Does oil pumped out of Texas or Alaska wear little American Flag lapel pins? Do we get a discount on “home drilled ” oil?

I’d rather pump every last drop of “their” oil before touching ours.

If price is a problem, conserve or diversify. We still give a tax credit for businesses that buy vehicles over 6,000 pounds.

I hope it goes to $300 a barrel.

See it all ,I agree with your point ,but you need to have all systems sit up to go in case we get cut off .

“I’d rather pump every last drop of “their” oil before touching ours.”

This argument is horsesh!t, IMO. We need to stop consuming foreign oil, period. We should strive for 100% domestic sustainability in terms of energy. If it means sky high gasoline prices, then so be it. That will force the changes needed to stop sending such ungodly sums of money overseas.

“Does oil pumped out of Texas or Alaska wear little American Flag lapel pins? Do we get a discount on “home drilled ” oil?”

Of course not. But I see no advantage in sending our money out of the country, and having to send our military to keep production and supply line secure.

Right ,there is a cost to sending all that money outside our country .

“Do we get a discount on “home drilled ” oil?”

Theoretically, we do, in that most of that money remains in our economy, not Venezuela’s or Mexico’s.

The FED has money. Apparently the fortune 50 has money. Anyone else sitting on piles of cash?

Why is it that government retirees, with their pittances of pensions, are suddenly a tax burden, but banksters who were made whole on billions and billions of unearned bonuses are not? What the cus?

Can somebody point out somebody on this blog that has actually defended the financiers? It seems Prof is fixated on thinking that we are all in love with Wall Street and love their ways. Please step forth if you are for the doings in the financial world. Anybody? Bueller?

Who is going after the person with a pittance of pension? I believe the problem people have with public pensions is when the system runs away and turns into Bell, California or when there is double and triple dipping.

Please quit constructing your straw men.

“I believe the problem people have with public pensions is when the system runs away and turns into Bell, California or when there is double and triple dipping.”

Now this I can agree too.

How is pointing out that the Wisconsin governor is trying to put a lid on Democracy by taking away collective bargaining rights tantamount to constructing a straw man?

We can all agree to that, NYCBoy, but those are the outliers that get all the attention in the media. That is not the norm, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Unions currently represent only a very small percentage of the population anywhere, and then virtually ALL union jobs are government ones. In order to pay higher union wages, pensions, benefits etc, I must be taxed, fined etc MORE. In other words, I - not some bankster must suffer so a few can continue to live at peak bubble levels indefinitely?

I would not mind the whole union bit, if the unions were flexible in allowing government to expand and contract as circumstances dictate. Right now circumstances dictate contraction, probably back to 2000 levels in terms of gross government tax receipts and outgoing. Most local governments incomes peaked during the bubble and perhaps it made sense to grant wage and pension increases based on that, yet apparently when the reverse is true it no longer makes sense to reduce wages, pensions and benefits paid to government workers, which is pushing municipalities to the breaking point and beyond.

Also, every American paid dearly for the greed and corruption of our banking sector, and I doubt any of us condone the obscene bonuses paid out while the rest of us lived with jacked interest rates, bailouts and increased banking fees, but that hardly makes it OK for greedy unions to rob from me as well.

“Can somebody point out somebody on this blog that has actually defended the financiers? It seems Prof is fixated on thinking that we are all in love with Wall Street and love their ways. Please step forth if you are for the doings in the financial world. Anybody? Bueller? ”

How come you’re fixated on the crumbs, while the hijacked bread truck is driving away?

GH,

I think the point many of us are trying to make is that YOU should not be paying higher taxes; the RICH should (those who benefitted from all of the bailouts, and who caused the financial/pension crisis).

That’s why we keep bringing them up. They are making off with all the money instead of making reparations for their misdeeds. THEY should be the ones covering the losses in the pension funds.

GH,

BTW, a lot of unions have negotiated for lower wages and benefits, and it is ongoing. But, apparently, that stuff isn’t as “newsworthy” as the Bell, CA stuff.

There are few things more disarming than a than a 3 1/2 foot tall girl(Commie midget) with freckles in her little snow hat and mittens pink carrying with a sign ” Do I LOOK like a thug to you” ?

“Wouldn’t you say so… Governor Koch?”

I don`t know what Governor Koch would say, but I would say…

That`s a cute little thug you`ve got there, and her mom is not a bad looking thug either.

Just for reference, my niece just turned four and she is only about 2 inches shy of 3 1/2 feet. Right in the middle of her age group for height, too.

What a joke this has become. Here on HBB we have the leftist echo chamber going full blast.

Now how the heck would you even know NyCityBoy? I thought you’ve put every “lefty” that can shut you down on “ignore”

As might a coward or someone who just can’t cut it.

“Now you are going to try to equate the public unions of Wisconsin with Lech Walesa and the Solidarity movement that fought the Iron Curtain. Good grief. ”

No. It sounds like Solidarnosc is trying to equate the public unions of Wisconsin with Lech Walesa and the Solidarity movement that fought the Iron Curtain.

Do your blinders make it hard to read?

NYCityboy you have it right. +1000

NYCityBoy for governor! He clearly understands the value to America’s democratic ideals of shouting or shutting down any opposition to his right-wing extremist vision.

Pointless, like so many other PBear posts. If you want to see an extremist walk in front of a reflective surface.

“…If you question these paragons of integrity you must love Wall Street and want all financiers to be free to rape the world. Surely you can’t have a balanced thought process. That is not possible….”

I was with you, mostly, until you got here and tried to conflate one power base with the other. They are not. And right now they are fighting against each other trying to reset the balance point in the economy.

The rhetoric here approaches the cynicism of the “reverse racism” argument. And truly misses the point– namely, as go the unions goes the basic tenets of our Country.

That’s enough, you two….

Don’t make me jump in front of you rank amateurs.

Seriously. There are extreme jerks on either side of this issue–which is what makes it so much good fun to watch and debate. But the basic issue is:

What happens to Free Market Capitalism when Self-Interest gets in the way?

We’re trying to work it out…just like civilizations always have.

AHansen, I would have to say that the average American is being caught in a pincer movement with corporations on one side and government on the other.

Government and corporations are the same.

Government is just a public scapegoat, a distraction for the masses.

Just how many examples of corporate sponsored laws, tax breaks, friendly regulations, repeal of public safety regulations, lopsided contract law and exemptions do you need?

A hundred? A thousand? Because the number far exceeds even that. And it’s all PUBLIC RECORD if you know where to look.

And, and last but certainly not least, CAFRs. Learn them. Know them. The government at every level is heavily invested in the financial markets.

And I would respond that corporations ARE the government.

corporations aren’t the gov they have just taken over the gov and it is their toy to play with.

The only thing that will roll back the power of corporations is
1. Gov if the people re establish control and stop fighting over things that don’t matter.
2. Riots that destroy everything.

AHansen, I think your basic issue arrow is just off slightly. Perhaps a little more of what happens when the officials of our government are bought and paid for by the big monied interests. The rest of us end up fighting for table scraps.

And I would respond that corporations ARE the government.

This is why it is wrong to separate the bailout issue from the plight of the middle-class issue including labor and unions.

AHansen, I would have to say that the average American is being caught in a pincer movement with corporations on one side and government on the other.”

Clash of the Titians who will win ?

I know who’s going to lose.

“And I would respond that corporations ARE the government.”

And I would respond that corporations OWN the government.

NYCBoy,

You seem to be missing the fact that those “union thugs” pay the very same taxes you do.

FWIW, corporations also pay taxes, though many of them pay less, as a percentage of income, than you do.

———————-

The issue is BALANCE OF POWER, and without the unions, there is NOBODY left to protect against the corporate and financial interests who already control too much of our government, AND ARE THE CAUSE OF OUR FINANCIAL CRISIS.

Oldie but goodie:

American Capitalism: The Concept of Countervailing Power (Classics in Economics Series) [Paperback]
John Galbraith (Author, Introduction)

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Price: $22.45 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. Details
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There are two things that I take issue with in the Wisconsin bill (that I know about).

One is removing the unions’ right to negotiate working conditions. Unions have been and will continue to be instrumental in promoting safe workplaces and safe working conditions. I could tolerate removing their right to negotiate pay and benefits. I am not sure where I stand on requiring workers to pay union dues. I see valid arguments on both sides.

The other is the sale of public assets without a public, competitive bid process. It leaves the door wide open for abuse.

I can address why union dues are mandated.

Let’s make one thing perfectly clear: unions are a special interest group. They are able to gain political favors because of their size and political clout (money). I don’t think anyone can disagree with that, nor should they.

What people need to understand is that unions have long fought for **workers’** rights. It is a special interest group, and they lobby for certain laws and regulations that benefit working people. They have continuously worked on behalf of workers’ and have been involved everything from civil rights, better/safer working conditions, fair pay/living wage, and benefits, among other things — and have backed politicians who are more likely to side with labor.

Unions support politicians and policies that favor workers, vs. other powerful interests who benefit at the expense of labor.

All that said, the unions are only as strong as their memberships, and they need to maintain enough power and money so that they can fight other interests that are also very powerful and have access to plenty of money. It is an adversarial situation, and it’s imperative that unions maintain enough power so that they can represent workers’ rights.

People who want the benefits of the unions without paying for them are freeloaders. It’s best for those who don’t want to join unions to apply for jobs that have pay and benefits that are commensurate with non-union jobs. It is unjust to expect dues-paying union members to pay and fight on behalf of these employees who are not willing to pay for the benefits of union membership, themselves.

NYCB …..What about the fact that private wages ,benefits and
buying power has decreased along with a lot of jobs ,yet the
Industrial Complex is protected by being able to raise prices ,
often times by price fixing because of the monopoly power. It’s not based on capitalism anymore .What created the lack of balance that the investment class was this exalted in our Society and protected . What about industry using out-souring and out-manufacturing and the lower wages of other countries to
essentially force lower wages/benefits on the working stiff in USA.,along with the improper trade balances and tariffs .

You never attack the price fixing monopoly of the Health Care system that has stressed every sector . Your only looking at taxes that go toward the public work force as the great evil .I didn’t see you complaining about the tax breaks for the rich or the tax breaks for the outsourcing .

Government workers just happened to keep up with inflation
a little better than the private sector because they weren’t at the mercy of the private Industrial complex . So the issue is why should the private sector worker be at the mercy of
the FAT CATS of BIg Business who are getting nothing but hand outs and favorable tax advantage and wage monopoly power by Globalism ,unfair trade policies and tariffs ,on and on .

I didn’t see you complain when Ford Car Company opened their new Plant in Mexico ,while at the same time taking
the gains from the government paid cash for clunkers program .
I guess you just want all private sector jobs to be reduced to
world competition ,in spite of USA cost of living ,and we all go back the the days in history of Strong Hands get to exploit weak hands ,or maybe the Egyptian system would be great
were all power and money was going into very few hands .

I remember when the Bankers held the right to get their bonuses because they said the contract’s couldn’t be broken ,in spite of the fact that they were really BK unless the tax payer kept them afloat and allowing them all their accounting tricks . Where is your outrage there ? You like the fact that we ended up paying 200 billion for what ended up being a majority stock position in AIG . Talk about crazy they were just a gambling insurance company that made bets on credit default swaps that they didn’t have the reserves to back . Oh ,that was just a real good use of the public coffers ,we are really getting what we paid for there ,
but Goldmans sure got their 20 billion from that deal . Where is your outrage there .The government could of bailed out the states had they not made the decision to bail out the CULPRITS instead . The gamblers are getting the bail outs ,but no lets take it out of the hide of the taxpayers and the workers . And than lets honor Hank Paulson with a coin .

You must be kidding me NYCB. Everything ties together .
Who do you really think the protected class is ?

OK we get it - some of y’all do not support the gov’t unions.

But are you against ALL unions? Do you really believe that workers should not have any collective bargaining rights?

Yeah, that’s the ticket - get rid of all worker’s rights (OSHA, too, while we’re at it), end the minimum wage and the 40-hour work week (all brought to you courtesy of unions) and then maybe we can get all those jobs back from China and India and Vietnam.

Let’s make the good ‘ole US of A competitive again!!

What’s wrong with those crybabies that don’t want to work for $2 a day? Wimps.

Housing Wizard, your post is so far off I wouldn’t even know where to begin. Please show one time where I supported the huge bonus pools, the TBTF organizations or the runup in prices in health care. I guess if your goal was to misrepresent everything I’ve ever said on the blog then it worked. Good job.

But are you against ALL unions? Do you really believe that workers should not have any collective bargaining rights?

Once again, the extreme take. Somebody please stand up that has written that all unions should be banned. Anybody? Please step forward if you have written that you want Americans to make $2 per day. Don’t be shy. Anybody?

I am so sick of this all-or-nothing misrepresentation. Just because somebody is critical of something quit painting them as wanting to strip every right from everybody. And don’t forget that the ability to strip rights lies with the government. And guess what, those people, with the ability to strip away your rights, are unionized.

Ok fair enough NYCB ,I don’t really want to misrepresent you and I didn’t mean to accuse you of positions you might or might not have . But, I remember having a conversation
with you maybe 2 years ago where you said you agreed with the concept of a balanced economy .

Look ,people who don’t know you don’t realize that your a nice guy in a lot of ways . I use to be a conservative for most my
life ,but now I have to question the balance of power and how dysfunctional that might make everything .

“I am so sick of this all-or-nothing misrepresentation. Just because somebody is critical of something quit painting them as wanting to strip every right from everybody.”

I’m with you there, but in your original post, you said,
“The whole premise is that the public union members are the saints of the working class.”–when in fact that is the premise of very few of us, though many support their right to collectively bargain. I haven’t read every post, but really don’t see that much love for the public unions per se.

“…that is the premise of very few of us, though many support their right to collectively bargain…”

Bingo! And as regards the need to take a look in the shiny reflective surface, I hope NY City Boy lives by the wisdom of his own suggestions.

OK , I think its worth it for everybody to read all they can about the Gilded Age in America .

I actually have mixed views on public unions like everything the devil is in the details. Public unions are however the only game in town. Private unions have been decimated. The working person in thiis country is getting the shaft and eventually this will effect just about everyone of us.

Destroy public unions and you destroy one of the last organizations that support that can politically support the middle class via organization and money. Pension plans the scourage of those on the right actually catch a lot of Wall Street crime and bring it to everyone’s attention. Yes some are corrupted but others have called out criminal actiivty. Take away public pensions and their reporting requirements and you remove one protection for all investors. take away unions and the poeople of wi would have heard nothing about the provisions in the budget that allow Gov Walker to sell public power plants to his campaign contributors for what ever he decides to price them at in a no bid fashion. That’s why I support them now. The power balance is completely tilted toward corporations and their forming monopolies/oligopolies. The value of capitalism disappears when this happens.

I am pretty sure most non communist Americans have a problem with collective bargaining rights for PUBLIC EMPLOYEES only. I personally could give a flying flock what a non communist non public employee union does on behalf of its members. A lot of you are painting with a broad brush lately.

nickpapageorgio, I told you “communist” is getting boring. You need to ratchet up your name calling. Let’s see….

“Spawns of Hell”
“Anti-Christs”
or “Those who want to mess with my Medicare”

are just some suggestions…..

“Destroy public unions and you destroy one of the last organizations that support that can politically support the middle class via organization and money.”

Are you smoking something? Tell this to the property tax payers of this country. Tell them that the public unions are trying to protect them. Tell that to them when they get their massive tax bills. The only people the public unions are trying to protect is the public unions.

Somebody quoted Thomas Jefferson today. I can guarantee that Thomas Jefferson knew the evils of government and especially the evils of big, overriding governments. I doubt he would be cheering on the public unions. The goal of any union is to increase in size and increase its power. The public unions have done that with outstanding skill. And bigger and bigger gets our government. Somebody tell me how this massive government is a great deal for the working man.

“….though many support their right to collectively bargain.”

My understanding of this is that they only want to limit collective bargaining rights on benifits (which is unsustainable and way out of control in my opinion) but that they can have collective bargaining on wages. Am I misinformed on this?

The goal of any union is to increase in size and increase its power.
————–

Wrong, NYCBoy. The goal of any union is to be strong enough, and large enough to counter those who would benefit from the exploitation of workers.

Again, public union workers pay those same taxes — property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, etc. Stop whining as though you are the only one paying taxes; nothing could be further from the truth.

“My understanding of this is that they only want to limit collective bargaining rights on benifits (which is unsustainable and way out of control in my opinion) but that they can have collective bargaining on wages. Am I misinformed on this?”

You are correct, and yes, it’s out of control in places. But I still believe they should have that right. If the employers (us) make unsustainable deals, it’s up to us to fix it. Taking away their collective bargaining rights with respect to benefits would make that much easier, but not right, imo.

As with any power structure
union
state
religion
corporation

The goal is to win for it’s members.
Right now corporate America has kicked the crap out of everyone else. They control the gov, the media, the courts, they have most of the disposable income.

How in the F can anyone consider unions to be winning. They are struggling for survival, they aren’t bargaining for higher wages or benefits they are trying to keep jobs.

Meanwhile corporate America will be buying our highways and forcing us all to pay tolls, they will use this to levy taxes on non favored retailers and businesses. They are buying up our power plants in Wi in a behind the door no bid fashion. They are buying state buildings and getting tax payers to pay high rent in long term contracts.

People whine about paying taxes, well toll roads, higher power rates, inflation,market manipulation via oligopoly monopoly etc are all taxes levied on the middle class to enrich a smaller and smaller number of elite.

Tell us who is going to mobilize people around these issues. The tea party has already been co opted from an anti bailout party to a party of well the gop.

“…You are correct, and yes, it’s out of control in places. But I still believe they should have that right. If the employers (us) make unsustainable deals, it’s up to us to fix it. ”

Perhaps that is what they are trying to do…..fix it.

It seems like a bit of a mis-representation to say they are trying to take away their collective bargaining rights (as in all of them). But it sure stirs up the base.

“They are struggling for survival, they aren’t bargaining for higher wages or benefits they are trying to keep jobs.”

Big money is pushing out MSM propaganda and backing Republican henchmen to crush union power at a moment of severe bankster-engineered labor market weakness, and NYCityBoy and his ilk can’t resist the temptation to pile on.

De-spicable…

Destroy public unions and you destroy one of the last organizations that support that can politically support the middle class via organization and money. Pension plans the scourage of those on the right actually catch a lot of Wall Street crime and bring it to everyone’s attention. Yes some are corrupted but others have called out criminal actiivty. Take away public pensions and their reporting requirements and you remove one protection for all investors. take away unions and the poeople of wi would have heard nothing about the provisions in the budget that allow Gov Walker to sell public power plants to his campaign contributors for what ever he decides to price them at in a no bid fashion. That’s why I support them now. The power balance is completely tilted toward corporations and their forming monopolies/oligopolies. The value of capitalism disappears when this happens.
—————–

Nailed it again, measton.

Last time I checked, it was the Dems who got
the larger % of corp. money.

Last time I checked, it was the Dems who got
the larger % of corp. money.

Of money that can be traced in the last election mainly only in “close races” . But, a huge amount can come in now without reporting and it takes a lot of work to figure it out.

Republican-leaning third-party groups, however, many of them financed by large, unrestricted donations that are not publicly disclosed, have swarmed into the breach, pouring more than $60 million into competitive races since July, about 80 percent more than the Democratic-leaning groups have reported spending.

As a result, the battle for control of the House has been increasingly shaping up as a test of whether a Democratic fund-raising edge, powered by the advantages of incumbency but accumulated in the smaller increments allowed by campaign finance law, can withstand the continuing deluge of spending by groups able to operate outside those limits, according to an analysis of political spending by The Times. nyt

So you admit this power grab is purely ideological, political, and cynical? Well it is.

Read Plunder by Steven Greenhut,
a meticulously researched work that exposes
the malodorous marriage between the unions
and elected officials and how they have used
money coherst from unwilling union members to feather their own nests.

Read Plunder by Steven Greenhut,

That is true and I know about all that stuff but I’m talking about something bigger. You’re talking about the flaws of the public unions.

I’m talking about how the public unions are the last remaining balancing factors in our money driven 2 party system- a system that is being more and more taken over by big corporate money to the detriment of the rest of us.

That is the crucial difference especially at this particular place in time of American history.

The public unions are big money powers, and they do buy influence in our government, right up to the CIF, to the detriment of the rest of us.

Get rid of prop 13 to pay for public pensions in CA

except home prices would probably crash

Mostly disagree with you on that. The money
going to education increased on a continuous
basis for decades. It is the largest slice of
the pie in the CA budget. What cities and
counties did to make up the difference on a
local level was to levy FEES, which by law,
are not taxes.

Rancher,

Demographic changes are the #1 reason behind the decline of California’s public schools. Decades ago, more students were native English speakers, had parents who worked with them at home, and had teachers who were able to discipline students.

Also, in the 70s, when they instigated “forced bussing” white flight took hold, and the public schools never recovered from it. That was one of the most damaging things that ever happened to LAUSD, BTW.

I wonder who pays for the unions’ largesses?

The same taxpayers who got stiffed by the banksters.

You’re missing the point, butters.

If not for the bankers getting their bailouts, you wouldn’t have to pay anything extra. That is what we’re talking about here.

These unions are the government. They are not fighting against the government. They are fighting for more government. How is that so difficult to understand?

I spoke to a friend’s wife in the summer of 2009. She works for county government. She told me that they were busier than ever. I asked what they were doing. They were working on foreclosure prevention. In other words they were fighting to keep house prices high. How is that a responsibility of my government.

I know how much many people on this blog love big government. I must confess that I do not see big government being consistent with freedom or a strong country. Call me crazy but I see government as a large group of people that wants to take away liberties and enrich itself. I can’t think of anything in my study of history that has proven that wrong.

I agree with NYCity. Nothing has happened in
my adult life that can dissuade me from the
opinion that unions hold back the competent, and elevate the incompetent, all the while,
screwing the businesses that feed them.

They’re a parasite that is finally killing the beast that has supported them all their lives.

Nothing has happened in
my adult life that can dissuade me from the
opinion that unions hold back the competent, and elevate the incompetent, all the while,
screwing the businesses that feed them.

Come on. Unions hold back the competent”? In labor? At 7% of our private workforce? WTF?

“Screw the businesses that feed them”? The EU is full of unions and has more fortune 500 companies than the USA and the EU has much higher exports than does “right to work” USA. Germany itself at 1/3 the population of the USA has greater exports and a higher collective standard of living than America. Germany is UNION. Crazy huh?

Brazil, full of protections comparative to unions has added 25% of its ENTIRE population the past decade to its middle class by “socialist” cooperation with capitalism and right now on a percentage of growth criteria, is eating USA’s lunch. “Union” Brazil is kicking USA’s ass when it comes to increasing the standard of living for the average Brazilian.

You picked the wrong bugaboo.

Anyway you are wrong. Your math is wrong. Your perceptions are wrong and your biases apparently preclude you from seeing the big picture.

And nitpicking a point or two in my post covering huge MACRO trends and facts will not lesson the truth of their whole.

Call me crazy but I see government as a large group of people that wants to take away liberties and enrich itself. I can’t think of anything in my study of history that has proven that wrong.”

yea but its for your own good

Was it the unions that needed TARP?

Remind me again how again how much that cost us? Is STILL costing us?

I will state as well, the devil is in the details when it comes to unions, but they ARE the only game in town for J6P.

Cactus, the only folks in government that have tried to take away our right have been the Repubs.

The Dems just gave us stupid PC. But our fundamental rights were taken by the Repubs.

And I’ve never seen ONE single business that doesn’t take way your rights the moment you “walk” through their door.

“Nothing has happened in
my adult life that can dissuade me from the
opinion that unions hold back the competent, and elevate the incompetent”

Hmm. You might be on to something there. St. Ronnie Reagan was both a long-term union member and union president, and he was about as incompetent as they come.

I’ll bet a thousand dollars that the entire story in that comment was made up. I’m fairly familiar with public compensation in California (usually a higher-cost and higher-paid state), and his numbers sound completely bogus.

The theory behind the original taxation was that the pension was “earned” in CA, so CA tax was due just like any other income that is earned in CA. The CA income tax would have offset any income tax from a state that CA had an agreement with (lots of states have such agreements with the states that boarder them).

I don’t know what the theory was when it was overturned.

Polly…From yesterday;

Unless it is a county or city hospital supported by tax dollars (hint: there aren’t that many of them left) ??

Thats exactly what it is….One of the finest facilities in Silicon Valley….

Then it is one of very, very few. I don’t know what the new govenor’s plans are for CA’s public hospitals. Has he reached that level of detail yet in his announced plans?

They probably overturned it based on it hampers a persons right to live where they want ,or something like that .

Maybe it’s different here in CA, but my gov’t paycheck includes me paying the following:

$632 month for health insurance
$96 month for union dues
$584 month towards STRS (state teacher’s retirement)

I am looking at my paycheck right now.

“I am looking at my paycheck right now.”

Stop clouding the union busters’ political message with pesky facts!

“Union Busters”? That is funny. Hey, everybody, sfrenter paid into her health and retirement fund. That must mean that the system is perfect. There is nothing to see. Municipalities won’t be raising taxes, cutting services and/or going bankrupt. It is all fixed. This one piece of information proves it.

Try to get this through that thick head of yours, Prof. Some municipalities might already have dealt with their problems. Perhaps sfrenter is in one such place. But the issue needs to be addressed all over the country. Cities and states are broke. And, no, it is not all Wall Street’s fault although that seems to be the only statement you know.

Now go ahead and make some stupid comment, or call me a name, because I think this is a serious issue that must be addressed. Label me a fan of Wall Street. You sure haven’t dealt with any core comments I have made about the power of the public unions or their politicization. Name calling seems to be about the extent of it.

$632 month for health insurance
$96 month for union dues
$584 month towards STRS (state teacher’s retirement)

“I am looking at my paycheck right now.”

That is different than the firefighters and cops I know down here. I don`t know any teachers well enough to know if that is the case. I hope you have a big chunk left after that because you take that kind of money out of a lot of peoples checks, including me and they don`t eat. But I appreciate your sharing that info.

Unions should take a hint from the banksters. rule in our favor or there will be martial law tomorrow. Hey, it did work for the banksters.

“Cities and states are broke.”

Why is that?

$632 month for health insurance
$96 month for union dues
$584 month towards STRS (state teacher’s retirement)

As a taxpayer, I resent you paying for your own health care and retirement!

“I don`t know any teachers well enough to know if that is the case.”

I only know the ones in my state, jeff, but it’s about the same.

I also know some other state workers, and they pay a hefty chunk out of their paychecks for the same things.

So I get really, REALLY angry when people act like they are footing the entire bill for public workers’ health and retirement, because it’s a DAMN lie. (NYC possibly excepted)

Wisconsin & Oregon—Comparison & Contrast.

If you have been watching the action in Wisconsin, you know of the public employee outrage, orchestrated demonstrations and partisan controversy over their Governor’s response to Wisconsin’s budget crisis.

Are there lessons for Oregon to learn from what is transpiring in Wisconsin?

Consider the following facts:

–Wisconsin has a population of 5.7 million.

–Oregon has a population of 3.8 million.

–Wisconsin has a budget shortfall of at least $3.6 billion over the next two years.

–Oregon has a budget shortfall of at least $3.5 billion over the next two years.

–Wisconsin State workers currently pay 6% of their health benefit costs and are being asked to increase the employee’s portion and pay 12% of their health care premiums. (Kaiser Family Foundation states the national average contribution toward healthcare policies among government and private workers is nearly 30%.)

–Oregon State workers currently pay nothing (0%) toward their health benefits. (Oregon is the only state in the USA that pays 100% of its employee health benefit and PERS costs.)

–Wisconsin State workers currently pay 1% of their retirement plan costs and they are being asked to increase employee contributions to 5.8%. (The national average for government worker contributions toward retirement plans is 6.3%.)

–Oregon State workers currently pay nothing (0%) toward their retirement plan (PERS) costs. (Click here.)

–Wisconsin’s proposal includes prohibiting most government workers from (1.) collectively bargaining for anything other than their salaries, and (2.) demanding pay increases above the Consumer Price Index measure of inflation. To bypass the salary cap would require voter approval. Additionally, Wisconsin’s proposal would stop unions from requiring public employees to pay union dues.

–Oregon has no limitations on public employee unions or their ability to collectively bargain, and Oregon collects union dues from state employee paychecks. (Oregon’s public employee unions are free to continue negotiating for the State to pay 100% of both health and PERS retirement benefits for all State workers. [Wisconsin information source—Click here.]

How have Wisconsin’s citizens responded to the on-going partisan clash between its Governor and the public employee unions?

A just-released poll of Wisconsin citizens reveals the following:

• By 74-18, Wisconsin voters support making state employees pay more for their health insurance.

• By 79-16, Wisconsin voters support requiring state workers to contribute more toward their retirement/pension plan.

• By 54-34, Wisconsin voters support ending the automatic deduction of union dues from state workers’ paychecks, and support making unions collect dues from each member.

• By 66-30, Wisconsin voters support limiting state workers’ pay increases to the rate of inflation unless voters approve a higher raise by a public referendum.

• By 41-54, Wisconsin voters oppose limiting collective bargaining to wage and benefit issues.

• By 58-38, Wisconsin voters support limiting collective bargaining on matters relating to educational issues such as, (1.) giving schools flexibility to modify tenure, (2.) paying teachers based on merit, and (3.) discharging bad teachers and promoting good ones. (To see poll, Click here.)

Is Wisconsin’s turmoil a precursor for Oregon? You decide.

Is Wisconsin’s turmoil a precursor for Oregon? You decide.

Sounds like Oregon has bigger fiscal problems and a population that would more support what the population of Wisconsin does not.

Is Wisconsin’s turmoil a precursor for Oregon? You decide.

Correction: I read it wrong. (Wisconsin) I will look in to that poll. It is opposite to the polls I have seen on the same subject.

Many people want to go back to the Gilded Age.

We may have to just to remind everybody how bad it was.

And why not? We’re halfway there already!

Yeah, there is this idea out there that public employees are living high on the hog and that everything we get (pensions, insurance, etc.) are paid for by the taxpayers.

Maybe some public workers are overpaid, but not public school teachers. Maybe some public workers get gold plated pensions, but not any I’ve ever met.

And that $500 a month I pay into my pension….I am doubtful that there will be any pension left by the time I am ready to retire. And BTW, teachers do not pay into social security, so when CALPERS fails, we are fooked.

So what do we have here: pensions that are underfunded. My 403b tanks every time the market crashes. Money under my mattress won’t help if we get massive inflation.

But overpaid teachers ARE the problem, right?

Cannot agree with you more, sfrenter.

Exactly. It’s just more button pushing propaganda.

Here you go Rio,

I told you. Thank you.

Does Ireland have a reserve currency? I didn’t think so.

Comment by cactus
2011-02-27 19:41:25
You don’t understand as usual
————–

Please point out where I didn’t understand something. From what I can tell, you’ve called me names and made accusations that weren’t true, then tried to claim that lies were facts (just causually driving up to various fires in motor homes and “magically” making triple time for *every single day!*), and I’ve had to correct you on every issue.

Look up my posts, and you’ll see I was warning about this stuff many years ago (during the bubble). Believe me, I get it. I understand VERY WELL what’s been going on.

BTW, we have already been borrowing from foreign countries — for years. They’ve already cut back, and the Fed is largely responsible for propping everything up, for now.

mikey, let me give you another side of this. I’ve been working on an extended marketing project that involves a partnership between two corporations with local operations. One of the workers at one of the companies fell ill, had to take an extended leave for surgery and recovery.

She recently came back on the job and walked up to me and thanked me for my efforts in her absence, because the increased profitability in the department for which she works made it possible for her to come back to a job. She wasn’t sure there would be a job to come back to.

I am not blowing my horn here. I’ve just been doing what I’m supposed to do, and she and I don’t even work for the same company, but the joint effort has generated income for both.

Neither of us belong to a union, this being a “right to work” state. My efforts, and those of others working for the unit, guaranteed her job, not a union. In the real world, that’s how it works.

“In the real world, that’s how it works.”

And let me say that the real world can be very cruel, and that’s why unions are needed. I mostly deal with the public, and can easily lose my own gig if one of those folks is having a bad day and decides to complain for something not even my fault, this happened to one of my co-workers. I don’t have regular hours, benefits or anything like that.

I have never been a government worker ,and my private sector
pension has been reduced a big percentage and another one is in BK and I will get pennies on the dollar . The feds low interest rate to
re-capitalize the Banks/Investment Houses and give lending to dump the foreclosures as well as the outright buying of junk mortgages at top value has not been kind to my saving accounts for years now . How much did that 8k incentive to buy real estate or the ones for cars cost the taxpayers ?

Still ,I’m better off than some folk I know .

Look,its just seems to me that the powers only have enough government bail-outs or funds for sectors of the economy that go back into the hands of banks or Corporate America ,or the rich or tax breaks for Wall Street and that sector .

In the final analysis workers ,public or private ,getting less
wages and benefits ends up putting less money in the tax
coffers .Not collecting proper tariffs ,or rewarding for out-manufacturing and outsourcing just collects less taxes for the coffers while it also takes money out of America and jobs.

Big old hefty health costs just ends up putting money to one sector and it puts a strain on all other sectors . Letting business use illegals while government picks up all the other
costs is another form of transferring labor costs (such as health care ) to the taxpayers .

So when you tell me that its ok to take away workers wages
as if the reason the state and federal budgets are broke
are because of them , I don’t buy it .I say it’s really a issue of the lack of balance that has been created by Wall Street /Corporation America /Price fixing monopolies /Multi-national Companies
screwing us with out-souring and out-manufacturing ,without them paying the proper taxes on the damage that does to our employment base and our tax base .

This BS that we need to give more tax breaks to the rich or Corporations to solve all problems is BS ,they wouldn’t invest in America anyway ,why should they ,they have their little stacked decks set up with playing the Globalism game .Plus they get bailed out when they screw up ,or commit financial crimes .

The Culprits just think that they can take the bubble money and run or get bail outs for the losses ,maintain the stacked deck system that has crushed the worker and the USA tax coffers ,and leave everybody but themselves in ruins .

It’s all about making the working class pay for it by a serious reduction in their standard of living,breaking their contracts
so big business doesn’t have to pay any obligations and big business can get the benefits of the tax coffers ,not the serfs . Corporate America /Wall Street gets to raise prices
to protect themselves ,(often times by being price fixing monopolies ) ,but workers aren’t getting wages raised ,only wages and benefits decreased ,less buying power and the culprits get insured profits margins ,even gouging .

It is the Wall Street/Industrial Complex .CEO ’s that is the big greedy babies that want to insure their gouging profits ,their stacked decks ,unfair playing fields, power by bribes to the Politicians and government coffer support for their increased profits . They don’t care if they got years of service out of a worker and than break the contract after they already got the benefits .Mozillo didn’t care if workers all went bust and lost their pensions /stock positions ,all that matters is he got out after he pumped up the stock and than dumped it and left everyone in ruins that left the government to clean up .

And never mind that any consideration is given to the real cost of living when the Masters of the Universe want to reek
their damage or if their moves throw millions into starvations
Let the Government pay for it is their motto .

Wall Street/Industrial complex take over of the lawmakers and policy makers which translates into power and wealth being transferred to that sector .

If the private sector had the benefits and wages that they use to have than they wouldn’t notice Government workers
who are now being attacked . Not to say that some corrections aren’t needed with the public workers contracts .
The one I don’t like is that you get to use overtime to set a
pension long term .

Thank you:

Look,its just seems to me that the powers only have enough government bail-outs or funds for sectors of the economy that go back into the hands of banks or Corporate America ,or the rich or tax breaks for Wall Street and that sector .

One of the things that should be apparant by now, is that the tax system in this country has to be completely overhauled. Meaning Federal, Local and State.

The system as currently configured is set up to gain revenue from the huddles masses, while giving the rich/corporations/wealthy the option of changing manipulating the system. Now, the huddles masses are tapped out, and, even though the rich/corporations/wealth have tax rates (as a % of income) at least half of what the peons pay, they perceive it as “too much”, or as “wasted spending”.

So, they threaten to take their ball, and play elsewhere, unless the game is changed to their satisfaction.

(Reality Check: Government is never going to be as efficient as private enterprise supposedly is. And the reason most government programs exist is because society has made the determination that a service is necessary, but private sector can’t or won’t provide it.)

So what is needed is a system that creates revenue for government operations more equitably, without the opportunity for the rich/well connected to dodge or manipulate the system

VAT?

In the real world, people lose their jobs everyday because of illness.

In the real world, most people will step on you to get ahead.

In the real world, increased profit while missing and employee means that employee obviously wasn’t needed.

You are very fortunate to work for an enlightened company. I don’t think you know how rare that is.

Good points X-GSfixr . Also to get a idea of whats happening today people should read up on the Gilded Age here in America and how they had to monopoly bust and balance out the
economic powers . It’s not like what is happening today hasn’t happened before . But that period of history was really interesting in America because a lot of power grabs were going on and Politicians were extremely corrupt ,and the battles
ensued between the workers and the Monopolies .

VAT

No

1. VAT is hidden, you won’t see prices pre and post VAT.
2. VAT is determined by formula, easy to maniplate formulas so the increase in tax is lower for say a Mazeratti than say a ford fiesta
3. VAT can be circumvented by the elite. You want a new yaght. Have a friend buy it in a non VAT country sail it to America and sell it to you for pennies on the dollar. You of course rent his villa for 100,000 a month until the debt is paid off. Private jets can carry in a lot of goods w/o alerting authorities.

“There are hardly any MSM stories about the no-bid WI utility sell-off.”

The no-bid clause is the money shot here. What a scam. The Koch bros. plot was so beautiful in concept it probably brought a tear to Cheney’s eye.

While I am for smaller government, the Tea Party’s original goal has been corrupted. Maybe it was always the intent? I know a few people who were involved very early on and their intentions are pure (one of them is a retired steelworker, definitely not anti-union). Maybe the Koch’s have been behind it all along? Does anybody here know?

And Rio, we are most definitely being played.

The no-bid clause is the money shot here. What a scam.

It is mind boggling and even scary that this story has been out there for a week but there is NO discussion about it in the MSM. Is the press asking Scott Walker to explain it?

You mean to tell me that when the bill is finally voted on it will still be in the bill? AFTER everyone knows it’s there?

No-Bid selling of public property?? 30 years ago there would be investigations on how and the hell and why something got in the bill.

we are most definitely being played.

Tea Party, this not the kind of crap that you should tolerate condone and definitely you should not be MARCHING for it! Thomas Jefferson would be rolling over in his grave thinking you guys are supporting such political corruption and worst of all you’re supporting corruption and theft in the name of patriotism.

“No-Bid selling of public property?? 30 years ago there would be investigations on how and the hell and why something got in the bill.”

Like I said, the billionaires have won. They got the sheeple into a frenzy over “Obamacare’s death panels and socialism” while they continue to raid the public treasury. The head fake du jour are state employee’s pay and benefits.

“And Rio, we are most definitely being played.”

We’ve been played for the last 30 years EXACTLY like this and, unfortunately it isn’t going to change overnight.

Comment by RioAmericanInBrasil
2011-02-27 09:27:02
Did you NOTICE any real on the ground MSM live coverage from Madison?

People, we are being played.
—————–

We’re seeing the same thing here. We had over a thousand people at the rally in San Diego yesterday (last minute, in the pouring rain), and not a peep in one of our main newspapers.

I tried to find something…anything…on the internet about it, but there was NOTHING except for Tea Party blogs via Google.

People, yes we ARE being had!!!!

media blackout:

News blackout: http://www.politicususa.com/en/cnn-fox-msnbc-ignore-wi

“It would be good if more than a handful of U.S. cable networks carried Al Jazeera English. The U.S. desperately needs a legitimate news network.”

Isn’t that a sad statement that Al Jazeera is a better, less biased source of news than our coprorate owned MSM?

All the more reason to be pleased that someone else is doing it for them and at little or no cost to themselves.

Seriously, DC doesn’t work on ignoring the freebies.

All too true.

Warren Buffet said recently , ” Were winning .”

We have to remember that when Buffet said that he was saying it in sympathy for the middle-class and he was recommending higher taxes for the rich.

If was something like “the rich always bitch about class warfare but there IS a class war and the rich are winning”

I agree. He is soon to join Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin in the historical dustbin of Republitard political wannabes.

He’s already been elected what does it matter if the Koch’s stop backing him.

The state is 60% against walker
There are 100,000 showing up to protest

He still hasn’t budged. He has shortmans syndrome and won’t back down even if a bloody face is in his future.

It’s possible some of his henchmen may fold though.

Exactly. Organized labor would get in the way of them handing out jobs and business to the local good ole boy network. At least, that’s how it works around here.

People shouldn’t forget that the protection unions give employees allows them to stand up to and report illegal activity at their place of employment- including activities that harm the general public. Otherwise the fear of losing their job keeps many quiet.

“Exactly. Organized labor would get in the way of them handing out jobs and business to the local good ole boy network.”

What the heck do you think the public unions are? Check out small towns, and many big cities, in America and see how many jobs are handed down through the generations. Talk about good old boy networks, just walk into police stations and fire houses across the country. Nepotism is thriving in “public service”.

Wrong again, NYCBoy.

Public employers have some of the most stringent anti-nepotism rules in existence.

I know kids of fire captains and chiefs who were NOT able to get jobs there because of their relationships. Even though many private employers don’t follow Affirmative Action rules, many public employers do. Like it or not (there’s a lot to not like about AA), but those laws are designed specifically to root out nepotism.

Government need’s requires more education than the private sector.
———————————————————————-
Yea, that’s right. Govt folks need a good education so they can appreciate good porn. Just like the good folks at the SEC.

And I see where obozo’s czars are really setting the world on fire. NOT!!!!

Yea, that’s right. Govt folks need a good education so they can appreciate good porn. Just like the good folks at the SEC.

What a statistically meaningless, cherry-picked and miniscule-sampled analogy.

I do hear it on AM radio though.

I dunno. they say the chinese think we have a bunch of dumbfvcks running our country.

exhibit A.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MM8dbWZ8Xw&feature=relmfu

Ehhh…. Who owns a trillion $ worth of worthless US treasuries? And who is buying more of them?

Well exeter, as it turns out, that would be us.

Just saw it the other day. We own more Treasuries than China and are buying yet more.

I haven’t seen a fact penetrate your shell in days.

I haven’t seen a fact penetrate your shell in days.

Say what you will NYCityBoy, PB is not a coward. He does not “ignore” facts or those who present them. Unlike someone else.

Some people who post here link MSM articles to back their positions; others talk trash and act like they know everything, while condemning anyone who disagrees with them for failing to support their posts with “facts.”

To each his own.

I’m not sure when the optimal re-entry point will arrive
———————————————————————
Call your realtor. I betcha he would know.

The realtors can always find the optimal re-entry point.

You may be making a joke, but you’ve actually articulated a dirty little secret of modern America:

It really IS geared to being a corporation.

Beyond a certain amount of wealth, you incorporate yourself. This allows for deductions and privilages mere mortals can only dream of.

Set up the corporation in NV and then a trust
that owns the controlling share out of the
25k shares that are issued. You’re almost
totally bullet proof.

IMO, oil is abiotic. Oil is produced by mother earth to keep the earth cool as it rotates about the sun.

“However, I believe that 90% of global warming was caused by nature: sunspots and POD ( a cyclical 30 year cooling/warming cycle of the ocean).”

Your belief is unsupportable by the data and false.

“IMO, oil is abiotic. Oil is produced by mother earth to keep the earth cool as it rotates about the sun.”

Isn’t it actually a chewy nougat center? Good grief. That’s why they said that opinions (IMO) are like azzholes…

Obama has also slowed drilling in shallow waters. Also, the serious new supply is in the deep waters. While new wells on land might produce a hundred barrels a day, the deep wells can produce tens of thousands. That is actually why the well could so much damage. We have only felt the anticipatory impact of the moratorium by Nov. 2012 we will feel the actual impact since by then some of the wells would have actually be in production. BTW, BP was one of the few oil companies supporting Obama and had one of the worse safety records.

‘$5,000 if he will move out’

I seriously doubt this is true. I’ve handled some cash for keys deals; they have all been $500, the occupant had to clean the place up and not damage anything. I’ve heard of $1,500, but I’ve never seen it. In most states, including Arizona, a squatter can be evicted for much less than $5,000 in a short amount of time, and the occupant wouldn’t get anything.

“I seriously doubt this is true. ”

+1 If this were the case, a burglar could break into any house and, if caught, simply say he’s a squatter.

No ben it is true.I had the realtor in my house and he showed me the note he was leaving for the squatter in the house.Very true story.this was a kb home and countrywide loan origination.

I’m just wondering if he is going to take the cash or get 6 more months of free rent.

I have been dealing with this wierdo ever since we moved in here.

In order to have the water on the owner of the house has to have it in their name, hence he has no water.

I know of some people who got $2,500.

Canadians are trouble makers.

Might?

Corporations can move to non-union jurisdictions like Chindia or declare bankruptcy, like G.M. if reasonable settlements cannot be reached. The right to anything requires a degree of responsibility as well. Unions know this and behave accordingly.Canadian corporate tax rates are much lower than American rates. Individual tax rates are usually determined during elections. If they are too high we kick the government out. Most people accept that taxes for health care are better than individual or company plans that can be cancelled or increased at the whim of the companies involved. Auschwitz?

There is no “in other words.”

It’s a right. Period.

NEVER let a bean counter run your business. They can “save” you right out of business.

1970s
“Flaunt it if you got it.”

1980s.
“Greed is good”

1990s
“Just do it.”

2000s
“Eff you, I got mine.”

2010s
“Let them eat cake.”

Yep.

Then let’s get our money back by taxing those who took it (Wall Street thugs).

I think the rich have lost many trillions ( 15T) ? but the FED has only given a couple trillion back to them. See how unfair it is.

No. Wrong. Losses are born mostly by the middle class’s housing losses and stock losses. The figure with all the backstops and guarantees that our kid’s now owe comes to over 20 Trillion. And the rich got richer during this recession.

Forbes rich list get richer while economy slumps

http://clatl.com/freshloaf/archives/2010/09/23/morning-newsdome-forbes-rich-list-get-richer-while-economy-slumps

Forbes’ annual richest Americans list came out, and despite a recession, the combined net worth of the “Forbes 400″ has actually grown by 8 percent from last year, …

It was a joke

It was a joke

sorry

I don’t defend the banking clan. I recognize them for what they are: predatory capitalists who have co-opted and corrupted our political system. But let’s not pretend the millions of FBs who signed mortgages they couldn’t afford, or bought into a bubble market, are blameless. Neither are the tens of millions of functional retards who mindlessly vote for more of the same election after election. With their votes for the Republicrat status quo they have acquiesced in Wall Street’s rampant criminality, aided and abetted by those in government who are supposed to be looking out for the public interest.

Here’s a prediction: In 2012, the Federal Reserve-Wall Street looting syndicate is going to realize they have a problem on their hands. The vast majority of the fools who fell for Brand Obama in 2008, will have long since realized they were duped, and yet Wall Street is stuck with Obama, since nobody is more servile to it’s interests and agenda. So, the GOP wing of the Republicrat Party will arrange for Sarah Palin and an even more lunatic/odious running mate - Mullah Omar? - to run against Obama Rebranded, since Wall Street, like W. C. Fields, will correctly reason that the retards known as the voting public will again hold their nose and vote for Bad rather than Worse, as they do in every other Republicrat puppet show. If Palin wins, of course, Wall Street will be running the show just as they are with Obama.

The only wild card will be if the thinking portion of the population rises from its current 5% or so, and throws their active support behind Ron Paul or a similar non-Establishment spoiler. The fact that 95% of the electorate give Wall Street their consent to rape at will in 2008 may not be repeated in 2012 - if it falls to even 80% the financial oligarchy is going to face the first serious check to its plans to herd the sheeple into its incorporated globalist plantation and pass all banker debts and liabilities onto future generations.

Agreed. So is our only choice for everyone to vote third party? I have a problem with the left insisting that I should fix things by voting D, when their agenda is frequently directly opposed to me on some things that are important to me. I have no problem with not voting R if I can do it without hosing myself even worse…

The only wild card will be if the thinking portion of the population rises from its current 5% or so, and throws their active support behind Ron Paul or a similar non-Establishment spoiler.

There is another left-wing wild card possibility as well. A real populist, Russ Feingold, Bernie Sanders etc.

It’s what Obama should have and could have been.

Most states have a Green party. And they’ve been around a while.

The Tea Baggers can go eff themselves.

Green party has too much lefty baggage to appeal to any of the rural voters I know. I’m always curious how those on the left plan to create a real majority while telling large blocks of people to eff themselves.

The Green party isn’t what it used to be.

As for the Tea Baggers, you should always tell people who are dangerous and stupid to go eff themselves. It’s the least you should do.

Just like you should never keep a customer you lose money on. That’s just stupid.

That’s why I’m not a politician. I don’t suffer fools very well.

That’s why I’m not a politician. I don’t suffer fools very well.

Even if they’re hot?

It is possible a challenger to the status quo could emerge from within the Democrat or Republican parties, as Ron and Rand Paul have done, or Alan Grayson before he was ousted. That will only be possible if the 95% of the electorate that blindly voted for the status quo in the last election, emerge from their MSM-induced lobotomies and start acting like citizens of the Republic instead of sheep. It would also depend on the Low IQs of the Tea Party who have been manipulated by Establishment GOP operatives like Freedomworks and frauds like Sarah Palin growing a brain and joining with the pro-Liberty wing of the ORIGINAL Tea Party - the one that wants fiscal responsibility and accountability, and rejects neo-con adventurism and religious-right dogma.

ESPECIALLY if they’re hot.

Got the scars to prove that one.

As for the Tea Baggers, you should always tell people who are dangerous and stupid to go eff themselves. It’s the least you should do.

What if there are more of them than there are of you? Planning to win any elections?

There is another left-wing wild card possibility as well. A real populist, Russ Feingold, Bernie Sanders etc.

It’s what Obama should have and could have been.
——————

I would be ecstatic if Bernie Sanders would run.

You’re right, Obama should have been what he had promised us, and what we were hoping for. When MoveOn.org speaks against him, you know he’s lost his base.

I hope your right PB .

You always have great posts, Wiz.

I also hope that PB is right, and I second his recommendation for the movie, Inside Job.

Lol. No, the main point is “THERE IS NO MONEY!”

You are amusingly persistent in your perception of what is will always be so. I don’t detect in you much historical framing of the situation but this situation is as old as mankind and is usually resolved in ways different than ones like you imagine. It’s not all math combo.

Your “there is no money” mantra has been proven false in light of the Fed “creating” a trillion dollars overnight and in light that the rich having most our stolen money. And it is ours more so than it is theirs. We worked for it harder than they did. Hard work should be rewarded. It’s the capitalist’s creed.

Watch and learn the lessons of history.

What the rich or the Fed has done has nothing to do with what is facing the state’s financial shortfalls.

The states are short of money. They being forced to raise taxes and cut expenses. It is what it is. There seems to be no way around this situation other than to learn to live within one’s means.

Force the rich to pay for the state’s shortfalls? Why should the rich do this? Did they cause the shortfalls?

Should the Fed print up trillions of dollars and distribute them to the states? Wouldn’t this cause massive distortions to the economy? Isn’t this what hyperinflation is all about?

What the rich or the Fed has done has nothing to do with what is facing the state’s financial shortfalls.

Wrong. The boom and bust cycle promoted by both Wall Street and the Fed was instrumental in causing pension fund liabilities. A false reality of our whole financial world was created by both. Of that they are guilty.

And when the sh*t hits the fan, I’m sure people are going to listen to your rationalized (biased) arguments that the rich had “nothing to do with it”.

Not.

The pension fund liabilities were caused by folks in control who were bad at math.

But the problem with the states is not limited to their pension liabilities; the problem with the states is that they have been living well beyond their means. They spent more than they earned and got away doing this by borrowing the difference. But now they can’t do this anymore, hence the crisis.

The pension fund liabilities were caused by folks in control who were bad at math.

No. They were great at math. Too great. The problem was they took their great math ability and combined it with the charlatan whisperings of Wall Street, the Fed and the Bankers who like the Siren calls in the Odyssey, led them to their destruction.

“No. They were great at math. Too great.”

Lol. They were dummies. They made financial decisions based on projections that were way out of line with any sense of reality.

Lol. They were dummies. They made financial decisions based on projections that were way out of line with any sense of reality what their United States Government, the Federal Reserve, Wall Street, the worlds richest banks and the richest people in the world were telling them.

lol, dummies ,, yea,

Were you one of these guys that bought into what the U.S. Government, the Federal Reserve, Wall Street, the world’s riches banks and the richest people in the world were saying? Were you?

If not then why not?

Let’s separate the rich from the Wall Street Elite

Then let’s directly blame the elite
They have taken over our gov and thus it has done their bidding. Again take the case of Gov Walker selling Wi power plants in a closed door no bid fashion. The state of Wi citizens will again get the short end of the stick. A post above also revealed the huge tax breaks they have claimed. They created a system of bubbles which inflated state spending and then pulled the rug out after getting states to sign swaps that left them on the hook for huge money.

The elite definitely created the shortfalls.

So your solution to Unions pay (for government workers ONLY) is for the FED to print another trillion and make sure government workers are effectively the only ones left with money?

No. I’m not really vested in the union’s fight as much as it may sound. In a way, the union’s losing would bolster the bigger struggle. But this is an important wake-up call that people are paying attention to- as they should. This is pretty amazing.

My beef is not union vs corporations per-se . My beef is corporations vs Americans. They are winning. This has happened before.

But there has never been a country in the history of the world where they have won for as long as they thought they would win.

My feeling is that it is the people against ANY group with political influence.

If I were granted deity like power to change only one thing about America to effect real change it would be to eliminate ALL forms of money paid directly or indirectly to ANY elected official. The reason our corporations, unions etc are winning the war against ordinary people is that we only get a vote, in effect our “voice”. big corporations and organizations get a loudhailer to get their voice heard drowning out the rest of us. The consequences are indeed dire in a world where as consumers we have virtually NO rights where big corporations and government is concerned. We can in most cases no longer sue (all consumer suits are frivolous) and have little or no recourse when wronged.

If in doubt, take a good look at most credit card agreements, cell phone agreements etc.

The war is not against unions it is against ALL organizations who use political influence to take from us and give to themselves, and we are approaching the breaking point I am afraid.

Correction : ALL forms of money paid directly or indirectly to ANY elected official outside of their regular salary. Just want to get rid of money which in some form corrupts their decision making process.

If I were granted deity like power to change only one thing about America to effect real change it would be to eliminate ALL forms of money paid directly or indirectly to ANY elected official.

Amen, If we had public campaign financing as does England, we would have a much more honest system of government.

This lobbyist crap has to stop.

Right ,the lobbyist crap has to stop . I like the sound of that .

Again, something we can all agree on.

I’ve long advocated public campaign financing and publicly-supported debates, etc.

But, for as long as there are lobbyists, we need somebody to represent workers. Like it or not, unions (both public and private) are the only entities who are representing OUR interests.