‘The Internal Revenue Service has paid out more than a half-billion dollars in homebuyer tax credits to people who probably didn’t qualify, a government investigator said Friday…The tax credit for first-time homebuyers was part of President Barack Obama’s economic recovery package enacted in 2009. In November 2009, Congress extended the credit and expanded it to longtime owners who bought new homes.’
‘The popular tax credit helped to stabilize the nation’s slumping housing market. But the extensions and expansion of the credit created a complicated system that made it hard for many taxpayers to determine which credit they qualified for, if any…More than 47,500 taxpayers claimed the first-time homebuyer credit even though there was evidence on previous tax returns that they had already owned a home…The report estimated these people claimed $326 million in credits.’
‘More than 13,400 taxpayers claimed the credit even though they had not yet purchased a home. These people listed future purchase dates on their tax forms. The report estimated these people claimed $97.8 million in credits. The IRS said it believes these estimates are overstated.’
‘More than 1,000 taxpayers said they purchased homes while they were incarcerated in prison, claiming $7.7 million.’
‘More than 2,500 taxpayers claimed credits for buying homes for which at least one other taxpayer also claimed the credit for buying. These taxpayers received $11.4 million.’
‘More than 2,700 taxpayers claimed credits for homes that were purchased before the tax credit went in effect. These taxpayers received $17.6 million.’
‘The IRS disallowed $531,134 in tax credits claimed by 96 taxpayers who were under age 18, making it unlikely they purchased a home.’
Overall, the tax “credit” sows the seeds for further declines in the general economy, as everyone who took it now must pay an extra $500 in taxes per year for the next 15 years.
Some of these lucky buyers will get to pay it back in one lump sum, with interest and penalties!
I understand that some people are stupid or only hear what they want to hear. That being said…It is one thing to be scammed by lying Realtors and Mortgage peddlers, but to have the government pile on by dangling this carrot and hiding the a$$ reaming in the fine print, that is just down right cruel and reeks of Fascism.
but to have the government pile on by dangling this carrot and hiding the a$$ reaming in the fine print, that is just down right cruel and reeks of Fascism.
You’re quite the fence hopper, first this side, then the other…
but, but, but,… eyes thought yous was all for “personal responsibility” slickiniki, who made ‘em sign uh, was cousin jethro twisting their ear nipples?
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Comment by nickpapageorgio
2011-04-16 12:05:57
Haha…My point was that in this case the Government was working on behalf of the NAR, Banks, and others to promote home sales by dangling the 7500 carrot and burying the a$$ reaming. I call that fascism.
The individuals that signed up for this nonsense are completely responsible for their own actions, the government should not be participating in this type of collusive scam.
That is correct Polly. There was a 20 something coworker who was very proud to have just bagged a new house and the original tax credit. A year later I mentioned that they had extended it and you didn’t have to pay the new one back. He squealed “but that’s unfaiiiiiiiiiir!”. Moments like that truly are priceless. His horrified introduction to the tyranny of HOA rules was also quite amusing. Ahhh, youth. For the record I did try to talk him out of buying.
None of these statistics includes the $ figure that IMHO eventually will be much larger. Tax credits for first-time homebuyers who defaulted on their loans.
Although I have got to give it up for those incarcerated
prisoners, claiming $7.7 million. I wonder if any of those prisoners were former Realtors or mortgage brokers?
‘The Internal Revenue Service has paid out more than a half-billion dollars in homebuyer tax credits to people who probably didn’t qualify, a government investigator said Friday…”
This is presumably an easy half-billion for the IRS to recover, as there are public records on when homes were purchased, making it clear who was eligible and who wasn’t. If there is a cost of collecting, perhaps the IRS could slap on penalties to recover them. I’m sure the IRS tzar will be on board with this plan, given his stellar record of compliance.
This is presumably an easy half-billion for the IRS to recover, as there are public records on when homes were purchased, making it clear who was eligible and who wasn’t.
Not only that, the IRS employs quite a few people whose jobs are to hunt down tax cheats. And those folks are quite diligent.
” ‘The popular tax credit helped to stabilize the nation’s slumping housing market. But the extensions and expansion of the credit created a complicated system that made it hard for many taxpayers to determine which credit they qualified for, if any…”
So it stabilized the housing market ? Where I live, both sales and prices are tumbling and foreclosures are rising rapidly. Most of the news I see from other parts of the country indicates the same thing. I’m dubious about this claim.
‘More than 1,000 taxpayers said they purchased homes while they were incarcerated in prison, claiming $7.7 million.’
It’s great to know the first-time home buyer tax credit went to such good use. Frankly, I had no idea it was even legally possible to purchase a home when in prison, much less to claim a tax credit. Perhaps the prisoners were real estate investors, as it would be quite challenging to be an end-user owner occupant while serving a prison term.
Looking to relocate? A nice home just hit the market in Weston.
If you long for a quaint, small place to put your feet up, relax, and never have to worry about getting lost in your own home, this abode might not fit your style.
Those who want their new digs to include a hair salon, private spa, home theater and a waterfall, however, can step to the front of the line. Interested buyers should also be prepared to have their wallets become $24.5 million lighter.
Even in the sour real estate market, sales in towns like Weston, Wellesley, Sherborn and Natick have fared well, said Dickerson, who, along with Julie Harrison, is the broker for the listing.
“We have seen no negative effects on the high-end, upscale sales since many homeowners are currently building $20 million-plus homes in neighborhoods as we speak,” she said.
I ride my bike through Weston and Wellesley a couple of times a week. Last summer, I was shocked at how many places were for sale in those towns. I still saw numerous for sale signs in fall. It will be interesting to see if it’s the same this year.
my brother lives in the third “W” town, Winchester. He says a realtor acquaintance of his said in confidence, the $1mm and up market is dead, and there is a ton of inventory.
Here in Tucson, the affluent nabes are Sam Hughes, El Encanto, Colonia Solana, and Tucson Country Club. When I pedal through them, I see quite a few “for sale” signs. Some of which have been creaking in the breeze for years.
Natick? That’s the first place I lived w/hubby before he was hubby. That’s where he lived for 10 years before we met. I can see why the other towns mentioned would hold value but Natick is by no means in the same league. Whenever I think of Natick I think of ubiquitous prostitution…ok and The Villa Restaraunt on Rte 30 where you could walk into the bar at 11 am to witness old drunk ladies sucking down manhattens w/ cigarettes hanging out of their mouths while they played Keno.
Have to wonder about the accuracy of their earnings reports…
Two of the city’s top delinquent landlords are not landlords at all. They’re banks.
City officials said Wells Fargo & Co. and Bank of America owe more than $80,000 in fines for allowing many vacant properties in foreclosure to fall into disrepair and blight neighborhoods.
Yet both banks, two of the nation’s largest, question whether they are responsible for the properties and tickets. Wells Fargo representatives, for example, said they don’t even know if they own many of the homes; Wells Fargo could be servicing a foreclosure for another bank, or acting as a trustee for a giant pension fund that holds the mortgage.
“It is confusing as to why we’re being fined,” spokesman Tom Goyda said about citations issued to the bank.
Now, with banks holding a record number of abandoned and foreclosed homes, many of those properties have become magnets for vandalism, arson, and drugs as banks and local officials try to sort out — and often dispute — who is responsible. Meanwhile, local government officials and taxpayers are left to clean up the mess.
“The problem is so big it doesn’t fit on my desk,” said William J. Good III, commissioner of Boston’s Inspectional Services Department. “I’ve never seen anything like it — maybe my mother once did during the Depression.”
“example, said they don’t even know if they own many of the homes;”
WF a bunch of F’n criminals. How long would it take to look this information up. If I were the city I’d start tacking on expensive late fees and putting leans on these properties and taking them over.
It is actually a really good enforcement strategy for short staffed agencies. You know that *someone* owes the penalty because the violation is obvious. You send the bill to the organization that seems to be responsible as far as you can tell. Either they are responsible and pay, or they think they aren’t and try to prove to you that they aren’t. If they are correct and they aren’t responsible, then when they demonstrate that to you, they will likely be giving you what you need to figure out who is.
Entirely unethical if you know ahead of time that the people you send the bills to aren’t responsible, but perfectly fine if you are really sending them to the person you think is on the hook.
It all goes back to MERS. Who has the title to the property?
This whole system should have been shut down by local and state government officials when they were being cheated out of their proper documentary and title transfer fees and taxes.
It has, however, allowed banks to provide “securitization” of loans to sell and dissect and transfer all around the world, resulting in lots of money-making and fraud.
In the final analysis, MERS should be shut down, and we need to go back to doing LOCAL registration of all mortgages and DEEDS, so you can simply go to the local courthouse and find out who has recorded a transfer of sale, who the trustee might be, and who actually has a claim against a property. The “ELECTRONIC REGISTRATION”, without the PAPER documents is to easy to forge and doesn’t provide a mechanism to assure proper title. The ENTIRE legal profession should have opposed this, as lacking sufficient proper verification of information. The way its set up, anyone can file a claim on the system.
Its a lot like the electronic “birth certificate” posted by DAILYKOS for Obama. It’s easily forged, can’t be verified and isn’t even recognized by the State of Hawaii where it originally was supposed to have originated from.
Hawaii only recognizes “CERTIFICATES OF LIVE BIRTH”, i.e. Long form, not “CERTIFICATION of Live Birth”, which is the computer-generated record that says they have some record on file which proves that you are a living person who has resided in Hawaii.
Here in Tucson, there’s this nifty code violation reporting form. One of my fellow neighborhood activists turned me on to it, and I’m glad she did.
I’ve been quite a bit of energy into reporting unkempt properties, especially those which appear to be unoccupied. More than a few of those are in some stage of foreclosure.
People, I don’t know what the city inspector are saying to whoever owns these places, but know this: They’re getting cleaned up pronto-pronto.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to make a call to the graffiti reporting hotline, 792-CITY. Big tagging on a wall up the street and ’round the corner.
The citizen’s bad behavior, in this case, is due to the way our income taxes are reported.
Citizens file their own taxes, they submit their own figures. The IRS tax machinery accepts these figures as valid and immediatey responds with a check.
It is only later that the returns are scrutinized, but if the filer was a crook then he has already gotten the money.
The income tax = war tax. First instituted by…wait for it… Abraham Lincoln!
Sing along with ole’ Palmetto now:
“Mine eyes have seen the gory of the comin’ of the lard.”
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Comment by SV guy
2011-04-16 08:53:13
Amen Palmy,
‘Honest Abe’ the father of the Federal Octopus.
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-04-16 09:37:35
‘Honest Abe’ the father of the Federal Octopus.
Kinda late now to “utilize” CSA plan “B”:
Jeff Davis in Southern drag on Confederate 100’s & all plows black!
BWAHAHAHicHAHAHicHAHAHAHAHicHAHAHic* (DennisN™)
And like the “TrueAnger™” / “TrueReduceTheDeficitNow!!!!™” of today: “Now!, …NOW!!!! we’re just plum full of all kinda angry!”
Comment by SV guy
2011-04-16 09:56:20
Hwy, I feel like Lee Iacocca in that commercial with Snoop Dog many years ago. Lee says to Snoop, after hearing the dawgs latest string of unintelligible communication.
“I’m not sure what you just said”.
All in good fun my friend.
Comment by Steve J
2011-04-16 10:36:43
Lincoln was a Republican…
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-04-16 11:11:59
All in good fun my friend.
“I did not know we had ever quarreled.” H.D. Thoreau
Fear! Fear! Fear!: “the Federal Octopus”
Hwy still muttering (incoherently as usual..):
“Civil Disobedience” is an analysis of the individual’s relationship to the state that focuses on why men obey governmental law even when they believe it to be unjust. But “Civil Disobedience” is not an essay of abstract theory. It is Thoreau’s extremely personal response to being imprisoned for breaking the law. Because he detested slavery and because tax revenues contributed to the support of it, Thoreau decided to become a tax rebel. There were no income taxes and Thoreau did not own enough land to worry about property taxes; but there was the hated poll tax – a capital tax levied equally on all adults within a community.”
Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience then? I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right.
I saw that the State was half-witted, that it was timid as a lone woman with her silver spoons, and that it did not know its friends from its foes, and I lost all my remaining respect for it, and pitied it.
America still has cotton & peaches, how they are “harvested” is reversing to the past-of-yore means to profit$. But there is some “particular” citizens in America who hath NO “TrueAnger™” at this turn-of-events. Nay, rather they seek to speed it’s development, rapido!. Beware the ““TruePurity™”,… beware the “TrueUntouchables™”,… beware the “TrueIndemnified!™”
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-04-16 13:12:45
Lincoln was a Republican…
I know, eyes reminds repubicans of this every opportunity I get.
They’ve seem lost the L in their namesake by “personal choices” :
L, as in Lame
L, as in Lover Boy!
L, as in Linda the Lunch Lady Lives Lavishly!
Cute rhetorical device to equate the agency that enforces laws with the laws themselves. If you mean that all federal taxes should be eliminated, then say so. And then explain that you think the US shouldn’t have a military at all. No federal regulation of banks or any other financial business. No state department. No foreign embassies. No border protection. No food safety enforcement. No CDC. No Medicare. Half of all Medicaid funds go poof and without that incentive a lot of the states would give up on it too. No SS. No nothing. I don’t know where you live, but a lot of states would be in utter chaos in a few months under such a system.
But in the end, it comes down to this: The traffic cop didn’t set the speed limit. If you want no speed limit, talk to the people who passed the rule, not guy who enforces it.
‘If you want no speed limit, talk to the people who passed the rule’
Here’s the problem; “the people who passed the rule” get boatloads of lobbyist money to change the tax code, or protect parts of it. See the comments about the REIC “protecting” the mortgage interest deduction posted today. Or look at how the tax code was changed to “prop up” housing prices with the tax credit. Do you think some campaign contributions traded hands in that deal?
If the way the tax code is created and maintained becomes a corrupting mechanism, it becomes difficult for those of us who don’t have lobbyist in DC to “talk” to those making the rules.
Comment by Realtors Are Liars
2011-04-16 08:19:24
“If the way the tax code is created and maintained becomes a corrupting mechanism, it becomes difficult for those of us who don’t have lobbyist in DC to “talk” to those making the rules.”
As I’ve long maintained, we wage earners have no representation in DC.
Comment by Diogenes (Tampa, Fl)
2011-04-16 09:17:02
What you have described is a system of “Taxation without representation”. Hummm? That sounds familiar.
Polly, you must live in Connecticut or Massachusetts or some similar State. I don’t think the Country would fall apart without all those new agencies or programs that you seem to love.
Most of the Federal Money is wasted. We don’t have “border protection” now. My whole region of Florida is rapidly becoming “latino”, via migrants from Mexico and South America. Once they get a foothold, i.e. a place of residence, the call back to their friends and relatives who just jump in a truck and come on over to take up residence. No questions asked.
Food Safety? It’s a joke. A couple of cases of problems and we need to recall ALL the Spinach, All the eggs, All the meat, in the entire country and destroy it. But they didn’t stop the problem in the first place. If they were doing their job, then none of these cases would have happened.
I think TORT lawyers will be more than happy to chase after any company that sells tainted products. They do it everyday.
We should have scrapped the Department of ‘Education” decades ago. EEOC? Let’s call it what it is: Institutional Racism. Evironmental protection? Remember all the “SUPERFUND” money. Most was wasted on Adminstrative costs and very little was cleaned up. I have one site not far from my home. It has a fence around it. I was contaminated by a greedy operator who dumped waste oil on the site. There has been no “cleanup”, just a warning sign and the site is unusable.
We need government. What we have is a BLOATED menace seeking everymore taxes to expand its reach and power for the primary purpose of provide Healthcare and retirement benefits, along with generous paychecks to Federal, State and Local government workers.
It needs to all be cut back, especially the FEDERAL part.
Comment by Realtors Are Liars
2011-04-16 09:44:40
You’ve got nothing and now you want the rest of us peons to have nothing like you?
No thanks.
Comment by polly
2011-04-16 09:52:28
The federal government is largely a retirement and health insurance program with an army and a few other functions. The non-security discretionary spending is tiny by comparison.
How many people in Florida are dependent on transfer payments for their jobs? What happens when 80% of the hospitals close because the people with employer provided health insurance use such a small number of the beds? How many people are out of work in Florida when most of the nursing homes and hospitals are gone? What about restaurants? Are all those retirees independently wealthy? There is a huge military presence in Florida. How many jobs go when they are all gone. Bill’s contracting job too. Oh, and Florida will still have the responsibiity of educating all those kids who are born here. They are US citizens. You are welcome to deport their parents, but the kids don’t have to go with them. You going to become a foster parent?
Florida wouldn’t make it for a few weeks if the federal government really shut off. If I had to guess, any state that is willing to let old and poor people die of easily curable medical issues and starve to death will be OK. Similarly big export states, so maybe Wyoming and Alaska. Maine used to be able to hold its own on exports too, but I don’t think the lumber is enough anymore. Long term it would be the big natural resource states that might be able to hold on after the first wave of violence. Think land and fresh water and wind.
You think that a little tainted spinach is a huge problem? You think that people in the US are beyond putting melamine in baby formula like they do in China? I disagree. The spinach issue was a success. They caught the pattern and fixed it. A few people were affected and then it was over. Until the feds came in, they had no idea what caused the problem.
As for tort law, an awful lot of it has to go to federal court because the people are located in different states. If you are located in Florida and try to sue someone in a local Florida court who is located in CA for poisoning your kid, well, unless they own a lot of assets in Florida, you can pound sand. You can’t collect. All they have to do is arrange for their goods to transfer ownership before they are loaded on the truck in CA and they don’t ever have to own an asset in Florida that you can get your hands on.
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-04-16 23:25:26
‘…it becomes difficult for those of us who don’t have lobbyist in DC to “talk” to those making the rules.’
That’s where a blog and a poison keyboard can come in handy…
“talk to the people who passed the rule, not guy who enforces it.”
Polly, you obviously haven’t been the victim of a revenue-raising speed trap.
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Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-04-16 11:03:49
You have to be speeding to be a victim of a speed trap.
Comment by polly
2011-04-16 11:09:30
It still isn’t the cop’s fault. He couldn’t enforce a rule that didn’t exist.
And I certainly have been caught in a revenue raising speed trap. Nearly empty highway out in west PA on a Sunday. Got dinged for an extra 10 mph because it was a “construction zone” too even though there was nary a worker in sight since it was a Sunday and no lanes were blocked. I ended up over the limit because I was trying to save gas by letting gravity have its way with me on a down slope.
I paid it (from Canada so it wouldn’t be an overdue ticket on the trip back) and I didn’t blame the cop.
Comment by Steve J
2011-04-16 13:59:33
Unions often pull a work slowdown by obeying all of the rules.
Imagine if citizens obeyed all of the laws.
I still haven’t figured out what to do with my burned out energy efficient neon light bulbs.
Here’s an article with a chart showing the relationship between the prices of the raw material food is made from and the prices of the finished product.
Note how the raw materials line (crude, as the author calls it) regularly goes in and out of the zero line, and note how the current prices of raw materials matches up with previous peaks.
Its utility is how the peaks spawn screaming headlines of a world about to starve to death while the bottoms spawn silence.
The peaks drive the price of farmland to highs but they also entice farmers to plant crops wall-to-wall which causes the peaks to morph into bottoms, and when crop prices fall so will the prices of farmland.
Prices of new homes in China’s capital plunged 26.7% month-on-month in March, the Beijing News reported Tuesday, citing data from the city’s Housing and Urban-Rural Development Commission.
Not sure if they fell 26.7% in one month or if they mean yearly if the trend continues which would be 2% per month.
10.9% lower than last year after rising all the way up February, so it could be 26.7% in one month. That’s a sizable move even by Miami standards.
This is way OT (but still somewhat finance related), but I just wondered if anyone else had been through this experience.
I’m getting married in about a year, and my family has significant assets that will be left to me. My father advised that I should look into getting a pre-nup to protect those assets in the event of a divorce.
So, this week, I stroll into the lawyers office with a simply list of things that I would like in a pre-nup. Basically, no alimony for either party, no party has any claim on inheritance in a divorce, and keep some assets separate in the marriage (I have significant stock/company holdings).
What I walked out with was a real education in how all this works. First off, the easiest request (no alimony) is a real nightmare. You can write it in, but that doesn’t mean that the court won’t set it aside. My attorney explained that family court is a “court of equity” not a “court of contracts”. My head really started to spin when he explained that if either partner stopped working “the chance of avoiding alimony goes down dramatically”. Huh? So, if I (or my wife) sits around and drinks beer all day I have a much better chance of getting alimony than if we are out trying to provide for the family? Come again…
The next thing that was surprising was the inheritance. I expected it to be a simple “I give up any rights in divorce to assets X, Y, Z” for both of us. Oh no, not at all so simple. First off, in divorce you’re not even supposed to have rights to either partner’s inherited assets. The lawyer told me “however, it will be litigated, and they will win, they always do”. Ok then..
Anyway, the end result is that we both need to setup special trust accounts to hold all these types of assets to try and prevent them from becoming contested property in divorce. Even if you go through all of that, there’s still a reasonable chance that the other party can get access to the assets, it just would be much harder (read: more legal fees).
Wow, what an education that meeting was. I felt like my head was spinning when I left, I expected this to be so easy (or even to have him tell me, “You’re already protected, you don’t really need to do anything”.) Not so much..
Just wanted to share the experience with others; it was quite enlighting (man, I hope I never have to go to divorce court; I can only imagine how much worse that would be). Also, the biggest piece of advice from the attorney was this “Never let your husband wife stop working, and, if you can’t stop that, make sure that they maintain all their professional licenses and continue to look for a job”. The problem is, if they stop working, it then becomes your problem (even with an alimony waiver, in many cases) to support them moving forward.
Unbelievable system; I can’t think of anywhere else in all of American law where contracts hold so little weight!
I just had a friend spend over 2 1/2 years getting divorced, mostly because of a disagreement about the distribution/value of inherited money that had been the seed money for their business, down payment on the house etc.
The divorce laws vary by state. It was only recently that NY adopted no fault divorce. (Irreconcilable differences.)
If you have a “truly interesting” sum of inherited money it seems to me you’ll probably want to have it in a trust or other shelter to protect you from other potential liabilities as well.
I kind of think some sort of trust is the direction to go, like you are saying here, if Overtaxxed insists on getting married.
I would even look to putting money in an overseas trust. Personally I cannot as easily have an overseas tax shelter since my career puts me and my finances under a magnifying glass.
Personally my best practice is to not get married and hang onto my wealth and enjoy it on small indulgences. If I quit my career then I would look into moving my wealth overseas.
Trusts are pretty complicated, and you need to find a good attorney with good referrals. I would expect Overtaxed’s family to have access to such attorneys.
Depends what you consider “truly interesting” amount of inheritance. I live in S. FL, so down here it wouldn’t be unusual for someone to spend my entire inheritance on a few cars and a trip to a nightclub. But I think it’s an “interesting” amount and worth protecting. Probably (liquidated) mid 6 to maybe 7 figures. Enough for “normal people” to fight over (and a rounding error for the divorce battles that sometimes occur in Palm Beach).
Bill, I’m in the same situation, my finances are currently under a microscope because of my career, an overseas trust is out. But I don’t see any reason I can’t do a “domestic” trust (one based in the US).
I understand the “don’t get married” sentiment. I’m actually of the same general composition. I’ve been living with my fiance for a long time now, and it’s something that she really wants; so, assuming I can get myself protected, I’m willing to do it. But I have no illusions of “wonderment” from the marriage, it’s just a big party that my fiance really, really wants to have. And a big legal headache for me. I love her, and will do it for her, but it’s truly nothing but a legal PITA as far as I’m concerned. It’s also going to make our finances even more complicated, which is certainly something I don’t consider a positive.
set up an offshore trust in the Turks & Caicos, or Grand Cayman. It is extremely difficult for anyone to trace money to you there (that is if you’re future wife does not know about the money). Solictors will change a hefty fee though.
On assets of $1mm or so be prepared to part with $50m…
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Comment by polly
2011-04-16 11:23:49
You have to disclose control of accounts over any account that has as little as $10K in it that is located off shore. I think it is at the bottom of your schedule B.
Guys, you seriously don’t want to mess with FinCEN. Anyone tries to tell you that you can “hide” assets offshore (meaning moving them there and not disclosing on tax forms or not reporting at any other time you have to make financial disclosure) run in the other direction. Run. You want to renounce your US citizenship and go through all the rigamarole of no longer being a US person for income tax purposes, go ahead. Expect it to cost and don’t expect to be able to spend much time here. Have fun living elsewhere.
” but I just wondered if anyone else had been through this experience.”
“I’m getting married in about a year,”
Yes! I have been through that experience, I said that 2 times. This was first posted for X-GSfixr.
A 55 year old man buys a brand new Corvette and takes it out on the turnpike to see what it will do. He punches it and hits 105 mph in a heartbeat. He looks in his rear view mirror and sees blue lights so he floors it and hits 165 mph and watches the blue lights fade out of sight.
He thinks to himself, what am I doing and pulls over and waits for the State Trooper. The State Trooper pulls up behind the man and cautiously approaches the Corvette.
Seeing the how the man doesn’t look like a dangerous criminal and he pulled over the State Trooper says.. Look buddy, my shift ends in 15 minutes and I really don`t want to go through all the paper work this is going to take, so if you can give me one good reason why you did what you did, I will let you go.
The 55 year old man looks at him and says… Officer, 16 years ago my wife ran off with a State Trooper and I thought you were trying to bring her back.
Your anecdote is not the only one I heard about the worthlessness of pre-nupts.
Marriage is best for young people who are both earning the same income and have very little net worth to begin with. Also where each spouse builds up the same net worth. Then the 50/50 split is no problem.
It also helps by not even building up net worth at all - just spend everything. Don’t own anything.
The alternative is to have a non-marriage. I seriously suggest you read the chapter on non-marriage in the timeless book called “How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World” by Harry Browne. It is like an advice book and discusses how one can make non-marriage work and still enjoy living with your spouse.
Whether or not you choose marriage or non-marriage, I hope you find the best decision. For myself, I am very unsocial and can live alone. I lived alone in my 20s and halfway through my 30s and then lived with a woman in a Harry Browne style non-marriage for three years. We had to separate because she was finished with college and had to return to her country. It was just like marriage except there was no nasty divorce proceedings when we separated (I kept my entire assets).
That is because when you get married the law considers that you have created a new economic unit that consists of both of you. You get rights and responsibilities in that transaction. The underpinning of divorce law in a lot of states (and it varies wildly from state to state) is that it has to be “fair” given that the two people involved had equal rights to the units assets when they were married. You can’t leave one party destitute which is pretty much what happens if an earning a salary partner and a not earning a salary partner part with no provision for income for the not earning a salary partner for at least a while.
I hope you fiance knows about all this and had his/her own attorney and that your attorney told you that he/she needed one right off the bat. If one party signs without representation, judges feel much more justified in throwing out all agreements and dividing everything based on the state’s default rules.
Yes, she’s got an attorney already as well, and she’s well aware of the process. She was willing to make this concession to have the wedding that she dreams of, and, frankly, if she’s planning on spending the rest of her life with me, a prenup really should not be an issue.
If we were married and got divorced today, she certainly would not be “destitute” but also wouldn’t be able to live the same way that we do together (neither would I frankly, it’s our combined earning that really pushes us to the next level). However, my salary is about 2.5X hers (which is my concern for alimony) but she makes a very good living herself (top 10% earner).
The terrifying thing about all this is that, after we’re married, she can decide to stop working (which I can’t prevent) and then, a few months later file for divorce (also, I can’t prevent) and possibly get a big alimony check for years because she has “no income” and will be left destitute. That’s crap, she’s got great skills and can make a wonderful living, she would just need to go back to work. It’s crazy that if your wife loses her job you’re now in a situation where you’ve not only lost that income, but, should you divorce, you also lose a big portion of YOUR income.
Well, like, I said, that is because you are creating an entirely new financial entity when you get married. You aren’t A and B, two separate entities; you are A+B, just one. When my uncle and his (now) husband adopted their first child, they had to pay an attorney to create all sorts of legal documents to try to approximate some of the legal rights that would have been created automatically if they had been able to get married. Well, your prenup is essentially trying to undo some of that automatic creation of rights to the joint economic unit. It isn’t just contract law and it isn’t supposed to be.
If you don’t want to be a single economic unit, you don’t get married. Though, of course, how long have you been living together. Does Florida have a doctrine of common law marriage? Because, as far as alimony issues are concerned, you might already be a done deal.
I’m glad your fiance has her own representation. I was worried for a bit that the reason your attorney had such a poor view of pre-nups in your state wasn’t because they aren’t ever enforced, but because the ones he writes aren’t ever enforced. Please note that I am NOT a family attorney and not admitted in Florida, so no legal advice is intended, but if you want an agreement between a person who earns X and a person who earns 3X to look more enforceable, include some small provision for alimony (limited amount and for a limited time). If there is something there that is intended to let the lower earning spouse adjust to greatly reduced circumstances (get job if needed, adjust lifestyle, etc.), then it would be much clearer to a judge that it was all discussed and understood and legitimately agreed to under those circumstances. If I were a judge, I would be more likely to enforce that than just a cookie cutter out and nothing agreement. If your finace earns $80K and you earn $240K, well, it is a heck of a lot easier to adjust from $320K to $240K than it is to adjust from $320K to $80K. A lot.
Oh, and make sure her attorney is just as well regarded and just as well remunerated as yours. There should be no question at all as to the quality of advice she got. This is important.
I was forced to pay alimony beyond my ex-wife’s re-marriage. The law in California and most states requires written waiver, by the supporting spouse. I certainly never agreed in writing but the law didn’t apply and my lack of agreement became my written agreement.
California is viciously against married men or men about to be married. Yet there is certainly no shortage of such foolish men happy enough to walk through the minefield otherwise known as “marriage.”
maybe this is part of the origins of arranged marriages? and problems are resolved by the families instead of the spouses.
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Comment by combotechie
2011-04-16 06:40:39
Plus, in arranged marriages, decisions about who marries who are made by seasoned adults whose powers of reasoning is not swept away by transient emotions.
Comment by jeff saturday
2011-04-16 08:18:07
“decisions about who marries who are made by seasoned adults whose powers of reasoning is not swept away by transient emotions.”
I married my first when I was 22 and she was 21. My power of reasoning was swept away by the fact that she possessed all the qualities coveted by the superficial male. After 3 years she started to look, sound and spend like her mother. We were divorced after 5 years.
Comment by Big V
2011-04-16 09:35:03
“and problems are resolved by the families instead of the spouses.”
Yeah, they just kill the woman so the man can have whatever he wants. You people are disgusting.
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-04-16 13:22:48
And it’s easy to boss around your eleven-year-old wife!
Comment by Spookwaffe
2011-04-16 13:53:15
REAL men don’t need to boss around anyone because they have the respect and admiration of others, not through fear or force but thru wisdom and leadership.
Ah, I see the divorce now. The court says that she and the kids get to stay in the house until the youngest turns 18 yrs. At that time the house is sold and the profits split. But six months after the divorce she moves an electrical engineer into the house and he reaps the rewards of your hard work. You get to pay $1000 per month per child, you have to keep medical on them, and you had to split all other assets 50-50 at the time of the divorce. What you had debt? The court spells out the debt that each is responsible for, but she doesn’t pay her’s and because you are on the debt too they can come after you–here the divorce court ruling doesn’t trump contract law. Great system.
PS: Be sure to have written in the divorce that should she remarry before the youngest turns 18 yrs that the property has to be bought out by either of you or sold at market value.
Avoid all future potential problems three simple non-legalese words of advice:
DON’T. GET. MARRIED.
Terrible, terrible mistake.
The real “contract” is between the people involved. Real marriage is in the mind of the participants. Getting the government involved in your personal life is just asking for major troubles. Be aware that people change over time, maybe you, maybe your bride to be. You’ll just be setting yourself up for an avoidable financial holocaust where only the lawyers truly emerge victorious.
Well, this has been very uplifting. I knew it was bad, I didn’t think it was this bad. I guess I’m just going to have to spend the money upfront to get all this sorted out before the wedding. I have no intention of divorce/split, but, frankly, I couldn’t sleep at night without having the prenup in place.
What a nightmare this system is; I can’t believe it’s so heavily slanted against the higher earning partner. It’s almost like tax law, the more you make, the more we sc**w you!
Overtaxed
Maybe you should be putting more emphasis on the real part of a marriage, two people who love, like, and enjoy each other, and have some overlapping visions and goals in life.
I married “up”, divorced him, and 10 years later remarried him. During the divorce, I pretty much left him the way I found him. $, a Jaguar Convertible, and his real property.If the money is more important than the relationship from the start, the question should be “is she the right one?”
Marriage isn’t an economic unit, it’s deeper than that.
My sister married a guy w/ a big Trust Acct. It’s been a living hell.
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Comment by bill in Phoenix and Tampa
2011-04-16 08:33:10
I apologize to you Awaiting, but Overtaxed should not have the woman’s perspective in an issue that could make him end up broken.
From a man’s point of view, his net worth is a measure of his financial acumen and/or his success at independence. The man typically slays the dragon and women who work in high level careers have little experience in the feeling of efficacy in a successful career. A man regards his wealth as his badge. So when he divorces, and it is typically a stranger by this time whom he divorces, he loses part of what symbolized his success.
I would agree with you if Overtaxed and his fiancé had the same incomes and net worth. Otherwise marriage is certainly a business, and the poorer of the couple stands to profit very well in that business upon divorce.
Comment by Big V
2011-04-16 09:39:19
Bill:
You represent everything that’s wrong with American “men”. You believe that the husband should not “have” (i.e., “consider” or “understand” or “care about”) the woman’s point of view. That is a childish way to see things. If you can’t care about your woman, then you are not fit to be a husband and father.
The comments about women on this board are almost always dysfunctional and completely unacceptable in any society.
Comment by Rancher
2011-04-16 12:13:13
My wife is my best friend, my buddy, my partner, my financial adviser, my lover, my
companion.
I trust her completely. She backed me in my
business adventures, thick and thin. The many decades we’ve been together have enriched both our lives and have blessed both of us. Our family is number one, nothing else comes even close.
As we’ve both said many times, We both married up.
It saddens me to read some of the comments
posted on this blog.
Comment by bill in Phoenix and Tampa
2011-04-16 12:28:40
I am just responding to your implication that Overtaxed should not worry about his inheritance. I say he should worry and I was only explaining why wealth has a deeper meaning for a man than for a woman. To rip half a man’s wealth away is to take a large part of his success away.
Comment by ecofeco
2011-04-16 15:55:17
You’ve been very lucky Rancher. God bless you.
But in today’s society, the odds are against the rest of us.
I never married because I couldn’t find that “best friend, my buddy, my partner, my financial adviser, my lover, my
companion.”
I’ve seen more divorces than successful marriages. I’m sad to see our society this way as well. This is not a world for one person trying to make it on their own.
Comment by Rancher
2011-04-16 16:03:20
A good marriage takes work, lots of work, and if you stick with it, nothing in this life
is more enjoyable or satisfying.
To be able to share the rush and excitement
of rounding a curve in the road, seeing
a vista never seen before is priceless.
Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-04-16 18:05:46
“To rip half a man’s wealth away is to take a large part of his success away.”
Wow! This says a lot about you. You might be better off not to have your self worth depend on your wealth. Life is too fickle.
My children have taught me not to have my self worth bound up in their success. I have concluded that I have done my best by them and they can own their choices and mistakes.
I have had almost 27 years with my husband and if we ever decided to split up, I would expect to support him. For me, that is just part of the commitment I made. At this point, I don’t expect that to happen. We have learned to resolve our conflicts. Neither of us are perfect, but we bring more to each other than any inheritance or material wealth.
Overtaxed, maybe you should reconsider marriage. Giving her a big party is not a good reason to get married.
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-04-16 19:15:11
“Overtaxed, maybe you should reconsider marriage. Giving her a big party is not a good reason to get married.”
Yeah, sorry to be so negative. A year ago I wouldn’t have presumed to even have commented on a personal matter such as this, but after watching every sibling, every friend, and very nearly every acquaintance either go through a divorce or continue suffering the fallout from a past divorce, I figured it was justified. The last straw was watching one of my sibs recently start the proceedings after 16 years of marriage even though I thought they were going to beat the odds: intelligent, successful, stable, 2 young children, etc etc. But no. I’m beginning to think it isn’t possible, definitely not probable. It’s like some grunt that stands up and charges a machinegun nest expecting to dance through the hail of bullets and come out unscathed. You really have to be courting your own destruction to do something like that. The odds say you are going to be torn to shreds. It just seems to be something about human nature as expressed in our modern American culture. I hope for your sake you go into this with your eyes wide open and not wind up torn to shreds in a muddy ditch blinking the blood out of your eyes and thinking… “what the hell just happened?”
I am in the same boat but wanting to sail in a different direction. I have a few millions and I am doing everything so all my money goes to my honey. I am doing this to prevent any of my family members contesting my will. I have a will along with a video will. I am also looking into establishing a trust and at some point in the near future into establishing an irrevocable trust leaving everything to her. Btw my wifey comes from money has higher education and she is smart gorgeous intelligent and has her own money. Imho money is not everything in life.
I guess it’s different strokes for different folks.
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Comment by Big V
2011-04-16 09:42:03
Good for you. FINALLY, an HBB male who actually loves his wife.
Comment by Spook
2011-04-16 09:57:22
Comment by Big V
2011-04-16 09:42:03
Good for you. FINALLY, an HBB male who actually loves his wife.
Not necessarially, its just that they both got money. The real test of love is when ya’ll bofe broke like a muhfuggah.
Thats why if I was a surgeon, I would tell women “I work with my hands” as a way to weed out the gold diggers
Comment by SUGuy
2011-04-16 11:42:40
” Not necessarially, its just that they both got money”
She was 19.5 years old when we met and I was a poor college student. For our first date we went jogging together around the high school track.
I got lucky and traded up in life
Comment by SUGuy
2011-04-16 12:38:11
Not necessarially, its just that they both got money. The real test of love is when ya’ll bofe broke like a muhfuggah.
Thats why if I was a surgeon, I would tell women “I work with my hands” as a way to weed out the gold diggers
Based on your writing style I doubt if you could ever be a surgeon?
Comment by Spookwaffe
2011-04-16 13:23:08
with a name like SOGay I doubt yo could ever be a real man.
Comment by alpha-sloth
2011-04-16 19:26:28
Homophobic name-calling is a pretty weak debating style, spookwaffle.
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2011-04-16 20:38:27
“When poverty walks in the door, love flies out the window.”
They would be dead or in jail by now if they did not get married. The married life put certain other things into perspective.
It is a minefield and lot of hard work. But some things are worth it.
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Comment by Spook
2011-04-16 09:59:30
and a lot of house cats…
Comment by bill in Phoenix and Tampa
2011-04-16 12:41:26
Why would they be dead? They had a wild bachelor life? You don’t associate with never-married men much these days right? A good deal of modern single men are very health conscious and choose only long term relationships or no relationships at all -no one night stands. You can google to find that men’s health boost from marriage is disappearing. In fact, divorced men have far worse health than never-married men. The divorce takes a lot out of a man. I know of a colleague who went through the minefield twice. He had a stroke a couple of months ago. I heard he will survive the stroke, but his life is changed.
I live down the street from a lesbian couple. Although they can’t be legally married, for all intents and purposes, they are. And, from what I can see, they have a much more loving and stable relationship than a lot of straight couples.
Yup. That government certificate really is good for one thing these days: getting your government sanctioned spouse covered under your free enterprise health plan if they don’t have their own coverage. Just twisted as all get out.
Overtaxed:
You will be providing money to the household. Your wife will be providing life to the household. She deserves to be compensated for her work. Since you are already trying to make an enemy out of her through a prenup and a hard-hearted lawyer, I suggest you cancel the marriage. You are only going to create an awful mess for everyone when there are three kids and the woman decides she doesn’t like be treated like a slave.
Everyone else:
I am trying to have a nice weekend. I am now really PO’ed that I’ve been subejcted to yet another round of selfish, woman-hating, DISTURBING comments here on the housing bubble blog. This is not the “I’m a loser who can’t keep a woman” blog.
“I am now really PO’ed that I’ve been subejcted to yet another round of selfish, woman-hating, DISTURBING comments here on the housing bubble blog.”
Please point out, in my original post (or my follow-ups) one point of “women hating” comments. I love my fiance, and want to make her very happy for the rest of our lives.
“Since you are already trying to make an enemy out of her through a prenup and a hard-hearted lawyer”
I’m not trying to make an enemy out of her. Remember a pre-nup is ONLY used if there’s a divorce! And then, sadly, my wife will be my enemy (or at least adversary) sitting across the courtroom. If she chooses to remain married, none of this will ever matter; a pre-nup only determines, when you’ve decided that you hate each other, what happens to the money. And who’s saying my lawyer is “hard-hearted”? He works for me, and I’m asking him to draw up documents that outline my wishes in the event of dissolution of marriage, that’s realistic, not having a “hard heart”. I guess people who write out wills are “fatalists” then? And people who buy health insurance are hypochondriacs?
“You will be providing money to the household. Your wife will be providing life to the household. She deserves to be compensated for her work.”
And she is compensated for her work. She has a great house and a great life to look forward to. I just want to make sure that life is with me. If she leaves me, she’s no longer “providing life to the household”, she’s just sucking money out of what used to be the household. Also, I find your view on this very “1940s”, what if I was the one with the lower income? Would this still be a “women hating” thread if she asked me to sign a pre-nup? Would I “provide life to the household” somehow by making less money? Also, what if we both work and share household duties (as it actually the case, but somewhat besides the point), why does she provide anymore “life to the household” than I do? Her household contributions are somehow more valuable than mine?
No, this isn’t the “I’m a loser who can’t keep a women” blog, and I never intended my comments to come off like that. I was asking a financial question on a blog that deals with financial matters in the thread that’s designed for “off topic” conversations. Every single thing that I said in my post could apply to both men or women, it’s simply shocking how the “less wealthy” partner is treated in a divorce, even with a solid pre-nup going in.
I intend to spend the rest of my life with my fiance, and to leave everything I own to her in the event of my death proceeding hers. However, intentions are one thing, reality is another. I never intend to go out and get in a car accident but I still carry insurance on my car; does that make me “selfish” that I don’t want to expose myself to unlimited risk?
She will provide more life because she will be bearing and raising children. You won’t. Not a difficult concept. That is a biological fact that did not disappear with the 1940s.
The marriage won’t last because you want to make sure she doesn’t have a fair share of control. You will have all the control because you will have all the money. You think this will prevent her from leaving you, but it won’t. The only thing that will prevent her from leaving you is treating her well.
You have to choose between keeping your money and having a family. The woman who provides the family for you will need to be paid, EVEN IF YOU GET A DIVORCE. The kids and her responsibilities/past sacrifices don’t go away when the relationship breaks down.
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Comment by Overtaxed
2011-04-16 14:12:43
V,
Children are out of the question for us.
I don’t understand what you mean when you say “You will have all the control because you will have all the money”. The only time that would be the case is in divorce, not during the marriage. We actually have co-mingled all our funds for several years, while I handle the financial responsibilities she has full access to all our accounts.
You seem to miss the point that none of the provisions of a pre-nup come about unless there’s a divorce and that this agreement somehow controls the entire nature of the marriage. A joint account is still a joint account, even if you have a pre-nup in place.
I don’t hope that this will keep her from leaving me. I hope it would keep her (God forbid the situation occurs) from leaving me and taking 1/2 of my money, inheritance and some alimony on top of that to boot. She does want to marry me, so I assume that I’m treating her pretty well right now.
You need to remember that the pre-nup isn’t a device to control the marriage, it ONLY comes into play at the END of the marriage. Yes, I know, people write all kinds of stupid crap in their pre-nups (if you gain 5 lbs you are out the door). This is simply (and much more common) a pre-nup that outlines the financial breakup of assets at the end of marriage.
There’s nothing to stop her (in fact, I’d be all for it) from making as much/more than I do. It’s actually not even all that unlikely, she works for a start-up company, should they hit it big she could come into big, big money. I don’t understand why you have the view that “I’ll have all the money”. We share the money as long as we’re married, if we get divorced, that’s a different story.
I stand by my statement, you’re still looking at this as if it’s the 1940s.
Comment by Big V
2011-04-16 14:34:52
Well, you didnt’ mention that you don’t want kids. In that case, who cares?
Comment by Overtaxed
2011-04-16 15:09:04
V,
I’m sorry, “who care’s” about what? I care very much about my relationship, my finances, and my inheritance, with or without kids.
Comment by Big V
2011-04-16 15:16:56
Since she isn’t having your kids, she doesn’t need you to provide for her financially.
Comment by Overtaxed
2011-04-16 15:29:05
V,
That’s not how the law sees it. There’s child support and alimony, 2 entirely separate things. You can’t write child support into a pre-nup at all (which makes sense); this entire conversation has been about alimony, which is money given to the less well off partner in a marriage to “get back on their feet” after leaving the marriage. That’s what I’m trying to avoid.
Comment by Big V
2011-04-16 15:40:06
You have to be a housewife to get alimony.
Comment by Big V
2011-04-16 15:45:49
I think your lawyer is exagerating (sp?) to scare you, so you will pay him a lot of money. A short period of unemployment doesn’t qualify anyone for alimony. It has to be a familial arrangement. In CA, you have to be married for five years before alimony applies when there are no kids.
Comment by Montana
2011-04-16 19:36:46
I agree, though it matters what state you’re in. Here, alimony or maintenance is awarded to a spouse who has seriously been out of the workforce for a long time due to the marriage and so is disadvantaged in the job market. Even then, it’s usually limited to 5 years, wherein the ex is supposed to get training to get into the workforce again.
It strikes me that it might be time for you to step back and relax. From your comments it seems as if you are not ready to get married. Particularly troublesome is your line about being worried that your wife can quit work and essentially take you to the proverbial cleaners. This means 1) you don’t really know your fiancee and 2) you don’t trust her. Those are very good reasons not to get married. I think that your money might be better spent not on attorneys at this stage but a good couples counselor. Worrisome in general is your low expectation of marriage. There’s significant literature in the social psych world that indicates one’s expectations of an experience are highly predictive of how it will present itself. (Yes, there are also people who are delusional, and their problems are also worrying).
As to the comments above regarding a woman’s worth, I find these slightly disturbing. For those of you who devalue child-rearing, give it a try yourself. It’s not easy and it is not respected (as your comments have so aptly demonstrated).
I believe in the “law of rational self-interest”. If my wife decides she’s going to leave the relationship and knows that by taking a “break” from work she can get a much larger alimony settlement she would be a fool (in my view of the world) not to do so.
I know her very well, and I trust her. Do you think that everyone who has a pre-nup doesn’t know their wife or doesn’t trust them? It has nothing to do with how I feel today, or me having “2nd thoughts”, it’s just a financial tool (again, look at my insurance analogy) to protect yourself should the unthinkable happen.
I do have a low expectation of marriage. I’m an atheist and have no interest in the “eyes of God” blessing my relationship. It’s a big dollar cost, a PITA legally, and an absolute incredible amount of stress on my fiance to plan. So far, I wouldn’t wish this on my worst enemy. We’ve lived “as if we’re married” for many years now, so I’m not really looking for anything after the wedding except the “status quo” (for our relationship) with plenty of money liberated from our bank accounts and plenty of stress/family fights/etc for my fiance. Also, because we’re both making significant incomes, we’re going to pay a few 1000 bucks more in taxes per year for the “right” to be married. All in all, it’s not something that I’m looking forward to. But that doesn’t mean that I’m not excited for my fiance and want to give her the best wedding that I can; it’s just not for me and not something that I really care about.
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Comment by fisher
2011-04-16 14:40:41
What exactly is the rational self interest justification for marriage in the first place? That seem to be a taboo topic… I wonder why?
Comment by Overtaxed
2011-04-16 15:06:15
I don’t think it’s taboo; there are a lot of “rational” selfish reasons to want to get married. Companionship, friendship, a long lasting close relationship with another person, stability to raise children, making your relationship publicly known, taxes (for some people)… Lots of things that would make a rational person select marriage as a good option. However, most of them can be achieved without marriage, so, in a more “strict” view, it probably wouldn’t look at any of those as very good reasons to get married.
The simple fact is, people want to get married, there’s got to be some “rational” justification for it, even if it’s lost in the majority of marriages (or people get married because they don’t understand that you can gain the benefits without it).
Comment by fisher
2011-04-16 15:33:51
Sounds like you just listed all the reasons why “official” marriage really isn’t all that rational anymore from a personal standpoint, except for those few situations to gain an advantage on health care or income tax (which are both probably just legacy social engineering). These days I think the PTB have pretty much given up on this country as their main playground so you only see those few half hearted enticements for institutions promoting social stability, as marriage was in the past Not anymore. For the individual, you would be delibrately stepping into a situation that will (statistically) result in a massively stressful and expensive conflagration. That isn’t a romantic view, but the facts support it. Everybody is entitled to be a hero though, if that’s what they really want to do. Good luck, Overtaxed. Maybe you’ll dance between the bullets.
Comment by Neuromance
2011-04-16 16:01:17
I know of an attractive woman who lived with a wealthy guy for many years. The relationship broke up, she has few salable skills and no money, and moved back in with her parents and went on welfare.
She’s older now and the bloom is off the rose. Had she managed to “close the deal” - get married, a) they may still be together and b) if the relationship still broke up, she’d be much better off.
From a simple utilitarian perspective, marriage can be a good deal for a lower-earning / lower-skilled partner.
It seems to me like a pre-nup is a good idea, but you are suspicious of your fiance’s motives post-marriage. I’d be curious about why she wants to get married at all if she doesn’t think the marriage will improve her standard of living.
If she is still able, she may want children. Most women do. Even the ones who say they don’t initially. Also, she may want to improve her standard of living in the manner you described.
It’s a bit like chess. To me, a pre-nup sounds like wearing a seat belt or like fire insurance. Having a serious accident or a fire is never intended. But if the situation occurs - and it’s not uncommon (breakups) - then for you it would be a good deal.
Thought: you may wish to put in some concessions in the pre-nup so that you incur some costs in the breakup, so she can be assured that you don’t want to create a supposedly binding relationship that is seamless and easy for you to leave. If she balks at the pre-nup, that might be why. Especially if kids are on her mind. She wants a binding relationship.
She wants to get married for a reason. Trying to understand that reason will help you understand how to proceed. It sounds like you will get no benefit from the marriage, i.e. the current situation is optimal for you.
Understanding why she wants to get married will help you choose your next steps. Understanding why you want to get married, or at least are willing to get married, will also be useful.
Comment by fisher
2011-04-16 16:27:10
Exactamundo. I really didn’t have the heart to spell it out for him I guess. The young really are entitled to their folly, but they should at least not be ignorant of the consequences or the probability of same.
Comment by Overtaxed
2011-04-16 18:14:54
“I’d be curious about why she wants to get married at all if she doesn’t think the marriage will improve her standard of living.”
It certainly will not improve her standard of living, we’ve been together for a long time and enjoying our combined income together for most of that time; she’s “used to” what we can do together.
Her reasons are really “so her parents can see her get married”, because she feels “left out” of getting married (neither of us has been married before), for religious reasons (her parents are extremely religious, like, off the deep end (IMHO), but it’s very important to them). It’s kind of irrational, but; frankly it’s one of those things; it’s like a force of nature that I can’t fight; she want’s it because she wants it. By the time we’re married we will have been together for about 10 years, so I feel a kind of obligation to do this for her, but, at the same time, I’m not looking to commit financial suicide by doing so!
As you mention, the current situation is pretty optimal for me. I have a committed/loving relationship and none of these legal headaches that come from marriage. We also save quite a bit on taxes, and we can play some games with certain tax credits/bennies that I can’t qualify for but she can. It’s probably saved us (over the past ~10 years) 30-40K by not being married (8K was the Obama credit for buying a house, I don’t qualify, but she did).
“To me, a pre-nup sounds like wearing a seat belt or like fire insurance. Having a serious accident or a fire is never intended.”
This is exactly how I’m looking at it. Of course I don’t want to get divorced, if I did, I’d just leave now! Just like I don’t want to wrap my car around a tree. Doesn’t mean that I don’t want to carry insurance though!
“Everybody is entitled to be a hero though, if that’s what they really want to do. ”
LOL! I’m hoping to be a hero, and planning not be a martyr!
Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-04-17 00:09:01
“I’d be curious about why she wants to get married at all if she doesn’t think the marriage will improve her standard of living.”
Is that what marriage is all about? I must have missed the memo.
Big V, perhaps it’s time to step away from the computer and enjoy your weekend.
I’m not usually here on weekends but I am at work today, so it wouldn’t feel right to not check in on the HBB. Don’t let the cynics (and misogynists) get you down.
Years ago, my sister’s fiance asked her to sign a prenuptial agreement at the urging of his mother (his family is massively wealthy). She steadfastly refused, and told him that if it was a deal-breaker he could go find another wife. He sheepishly backed down, and they’ve been married over 20 years.
Overtaxed, What are your ages? How long have you known each other? If there is not a chance of children defer the marriage or don’t get married at all. Women tend to want the marriage more than men. Think of the analogy of a buyer and seller. Buyers (men) generally have the leverage not to close the deal. Also you mentioned your fiancee wants the wedding of her dreams. Sometimes it seems women want a wedding more than the marriage. Suggest to your fiancee that the two of you go off for a quiet ceremony. She whether she still wants to get married. Also probably too late but it’s best not to let people know how much money you have. (Though if there is a lot or a lot family money concealing its existstance can be hard.) It might be hard to protect assets you have now and your income. But inheritances can be doled out over decades after the marriage has a track record. One poster mentioned a video will. Ask financee to make a video pre-nup. Also you make one too in case she hit$ it big. It also sounds more like a general fear of loosing wealth / security than fear of your financee or marriage. The more money some people get the more anxiety they get about being without it. If you lost all or your money tomorrow what would your life be? Relatives who had to flee Europe because of the wars found themselves in such a position. They learned very well how security is very illusional. And what is really important in life. Good luck to you, hope you figure out a solution that works well for you.
I’m 34 and she’s 31. We’ve been together for about 8 years now (living together almost the whole time) and, by the time of the wedding, it will be almost 10 years (wow, time flies).
She ABSOLUTELY want’s the “wedding more than the marriage”. For all intents, we’ve been married for the better part of a decade. We’ve lived together, commingled our finances, and really made our adult lives together. The marriage is just a formality at this point, but it does have some significant legal implications that I don’t have to concern myself with at this time. She has little/no interest in a quiet ceremony (I’ve tried) this is “for her parents/family”, that’s her primary reason for going through with the “big/traditional wedding”. It’s also both of our first marriages, so, although we’re quite a bit older than normal, I feel compelled to give her a “real wedding”. She’s been very good to me and I think she deserves to have this if it’s what she really wants. Doesn’t mean I deserve to live the rest of my life with a noose around my neck though; I basically want a pre-nup that reduces our “married” status around financial matters to only apply IF we are married (and not thereafter).
“It also sounds more like a general fear of loosing wealth / security than fear of your financee or marriage. The more money some people get the more anxiety they get about being without it.”
That’s exactly it. I’ve lived a very tightly controlled financial life for a long time now, and a divorce/alimony can just unravel it all in a heartbeat, and there’s nothing you can do to once it starts. It’s a financial hit that most people will never really fully recover from. Add in “good timing” for a divorce (right I receive inheritance) and it could be a truly heartstopping amount (for a normal person, again, these are all rounding errors to the “real wealthy”).
Overtaxed, In many places does n’t living together seven years create a common law marriage? Your status now could be different than you think.
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Comment by Bill In Phoenix and Tampa
2011-04-17 03:41:35
In Australia if you live together for two years, it’s just like marriage and the money drain from the wealthier to the less wealthy of the couple applies.
Touring a few housing tracts waiting for Best Buy to open here in Las Vegas…Realtor signs as we all would expect and all the other obvious signs of distress..Weed filled front yards, all window shades drawn, no vehicles, much differed house maintenance…I would say there were at least three houses with obvious distress for every house with a Realtor sign…Maybe more…
Comment by Realtors Are Liars
2011-04-16 13:08:05
Yes and the script is housing. Try mmkkay?
Comment by Hard Rain
2011-04-16 14:01:21
Does realtor sign resemble coyote sign?
Comment by scdave
2011-04-16 18:41:26
You guys/girls/children try to add something to the dialog or just keep quiet…You are painfully annoying sometimes…
Gubmint bank is one giant red flag, but who cares? Nothing will come of it, they permanently attached to the gubmint tit.
~ Red Flags Popping Up All Over Bank of America
By: John Carney Senior Editor, CNBC.com
Bank of America [BAC 12.82 -0.31 (-2.36%) ] shares gave up more than 2 percent Friday on disappointing earnings. But a bad quarter may be the least of the bank’s worries.
The largest bank by deposits just lost its chief financial officer and just hired one of the most connected regulatory lawyers in the U.S.
Both events are alarming.
The bank says that Charles Noski requested to step aside due to family illness. There’s no doubt some truth in this: a family member is ill, and Noski probably volunteered his resignation. But it comes on the back of some very troubling developments:
* Earlier this month we learned that Bank of America’s announcement that the government had denied its insane request to raise its dividend had not been reviewed by Noski before it was made public. No one has offered a credible explanation for this lapse in internal controls.
* Bank of America recently announced that it was going to start charging some 5 percent of its credit card customers a brand new $59 annual fee. This is a breathtakingly obvious attempt to drive $180 million in profits through a loophole in Dodd-Frank—which prohibited interest rate increases unless customers were seriously delinquent, but left open the possibility of random fee hikes.
* Bank of America has been estimating for three quarters that it is more than two-thirds through the wave of repurchase requests on soured home loans, and that the total losses will not amount to more than $10 billion. This quarter it provided for just $1 billion in mortgage repurchase and litigation expenses—compared with $2.2 billion for JP Morgan Chase in the first quarter. Does anyone believe that the bank with exposure to Countrywide’s loans is better off than JP Morgan?
I am a true Bofa winner. 108/yr checking fees(used to be free), 59/yr visa (used to be free) 79/yr AX (used to be free)
But; Wife’s 300,000 loan from Countrywide (used to cost 2000/month…now it’s free!)
In our county, around 2,000 properties are on the market. There are 530 properties with sour loans by bofa; these were supposed to be auctioned this spring but some red tape has caused them to lay fallow until this fall. Point is that one lender alone could provide 25% of a healthy amount of inventory if it got going on getting these loans off their books and foreclosing in earnest ( however I assume some of these may be listed for distressed sales.)
Regardless some impressive shadow inventory should keep prices from rising until after the foreclosure python processes all these delinquent loans.
Course my friend stopped paying two months ago; so the snake is not done eating yet!
“* Bank of America has been estimating for three quarters that it is more than two-thirds through the wave of repurchase requests on soured home loans, and that the total losses will not amount to more than $10 billion.”
BofA CEO: Owners shouldn’t look at home as an asset
Housing rebound may take so long that homeowners should seek other long-term investments
By Joe Rauch
Reuters
updated 4/12/2011
CHARLOTTE, N.C. — Homeowners may need to look elsewhere for long-term investment returns as housing prices in some areas may not rebound long-term, Bank of America Corp Chief Executive Officer Brian Moynihan said on Tuesday.
“It’s sobering to think, but some people shouldn’t be thinking of (their home) as an asset,” Moynihan said at the 2011 National Association of Attorneys General conference. “They should be thinking of it as a great place to live.”
Moynihan said during his prepared remarks that he had spoken with the attorneys general about industry issues, but declined to comment further about the discussions.
(Background: during the tech boom collapse, BofA was responsible for completely dismantling its American IT operations and moving it all to India, eliminating thousands of jobs. Jobs that could have… paid the mortgage)
Foreclosure leaves North Palm couple’s belongings on street for thieves
By Bill DiPaolo Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Posted: 2:53 p.m. Friday, April 15, 2011
NORTH PALM BEACH — Code enforcement officials responded Friday to protect furniture and other personal items that eviction officials placed in the driveway of a Lighthouse Drive home.
“People were like buzzards around fresh meat. At one point, there must have been a dozen cars. People were grabbing and taking everything,” said Chuck Huff, the village community development director.
People illegally sifted through mattresses, desks, lamp shades, dishes, books, golfing equipment and dozens of other items. Property piled on a person’s driveway is not open to the public without the owner’s permission, Huff said.
“It’s sad. My wife’s bowling trophies are somewhere in there. We’re a very sentimental family,” said Christopher James, the former owner of the home that was foreclosed on earlier this year.
The couple moved to Perry, in North Florida. They kept their Lighthouse Drive home. They opened another Christmas store in Perry.
Hard to figure out what happened.
They move to Perry but yet keep all their stuff in a house in North Palm. They don’t make any payments and know an eviction is going to happen eventually. Then they are surprised when it happens?
Story says nothing on how long they have had the house rent free, when they received a NOD, if they took out any equity, etc.
Bruce Willis has sold his New York apartment at a loss of more than a quarter of a million dollars. Willis bought the beautiful 20th-floor 3BR in one of Donald Trump’s luxury high-rises for $4.26 million in 2007. Now it seems he is so eager to get rid of it that he has accepted an offer, still going through contract, of just $3.95 million, a significant loss.
A significant loss ( I detect sarcasm)? A quarter of a million off of $4.25 million is less than ten percent. Maybe six percent. My own loss was 20% in the 1990s RE bust. I’d expect Mr. Willis has perhaps $30 million tucked away in other investments to absorb such a loss.
I would never put more than 1/6 of my net worth into real estate. I would hope Mr. Willis is smart enough or has smart enough accountants to advise him to diversify as well.
Gaithersburg MD, about 20 miles from the Washington monument. Long trafficy drive if you work in the city. If you work in the outer burbs — not too bad.
Under $100K range:
A bunch of 2-bed 1970’s conversion condos.
$100 - $175K range:
Not many condos in this range. Condos are either run-down conversions, or bubble-amenity yuppity condos. I’m not surprised. The conversion condos were built to be apartments, and the yuppity condos were built to be profit vehicles. In other words, as I guessed, nobody wants to build or to buy a condo for the sheer condoness. (at least not in the burbs.)
Some run-down rowhomes.
The occasional “handyman special” disaster SFH which needs $100K of work.
$210- 225K range:
Newer 2-bed bubble condos.
Nicer end-unit townhomes.
A couple small 1970’s starter SFH, but I don’t know the neighborhoods.
Newer 2-bed condos.
$240K - $250K range:
More townhomes.
Middle-class looking raised ranches on 0.2 acre — the type that were built by the millions in the 70’s and 80’s.
$270K range:
Lots of ultra luxury condos
Nicer bigger rowhomes (4 bed? I don’t know how you fit that in the floor plan?)
$310-325K range:
Still a couple hoity-toity condos at wishing prices.
Vast majority are still townhomes.
Starting to see more SFH. Little ramblers, small lots, wishing prices here.
$325K to $350K range:
No more condos, mainly because it’s 5 miles from the end of the Red Line.
Some hoity-toity row homes.
Now we’re getting into the better 3-4 bed SFH. by better, I mean better condition. They are still “regular” houses.
$350K to $500K range:
Many fewer homes altogether — 79 SFH, 38 rowhouse.
$425K: Restored Bungalow (read, small for the price)
$440K range: Still the same old-same old regular tract raised ranch or split level houses, but gussied up with a nice garage or larger lot or a flipper kitchen.
$450K range: I spot the first smaller McMansion, late 80’s vintage.
$500K range: Late 90’s vintage McMansions.
I didn’t see a single bubble McMansion under $500K except for bubble McTownhomes.
————
So what does this say for the DC pricing prospects? I would say that the $75K is priced well but they all need work. At $210 you’re starting to see ok townhomes but I think they are still 15% overpriced. Tract SFH are the most valued, but still overpriced by about $50K except for the occasional rare find (bleeding shadow inventory?) Anything built in the past 10 years is still at wishing prices. Let’s see if falling leaves brings falling prices.
Yes, the cheaper houses got into the fray first, so those are the ones that will bottom out sooner.
Don’t you think it’s weird that a nice SFH costs more than 5x an older condo? It should be more like 3x. The upper end has a lot farther to fall than the lower end. Ask yourself what the rents would be on those places. How much you wanna bet the rent:buy ratio on the condo is way higher than on the upper-end house?
The author is a Reuters Breakingviews columnist. The opinions expressed are his own.
WASHINGTON — Five years on from their peak, there’s still no bottom in sight for America’s house prices. After rising from a trough in 2009, prices are falling again and market activity is very thin. It’s another complexity for monetary policymakers with an eye on inflation: hiking interest rates could further squash housing.
The housing bubble that inflated in the run-up to 2006 owed much to the Federal Reserve’s policy. During and after the 2001 recession, the Fed under Chairman Alan Greenspan held interest rates very low, and well below inflation. That coincided with a political environment and tax benefits — like the mortgage interest deduction — that encouraged home ownership, and was capped by financial technology that allowed mortgages to be repackaged and resold so that the original lenders retained no risk.
Yet thanks to low interest rates, the National Association of Realtors’ affordability index remained above its long-term average even as the ratio of the typical house price to income soared to unprecedented levels above five times, compared with a long-term average around three times.
Helped by a dose of bubble-induced fraud that stretched some mortgage borrowers even further, lower-quality subprime borrowers began getting into difficulty even as house prices were peaking. That was the beginning of the collapse that eventually swept through the mortgage securitization market and put the banking system in difficulty, causing a financial crunch and a sharp economic downturn.
The average house price tumbled 32 percent in the three years after the 2006 peak, by the seasonally adjusted S&P/Case-Shiller 20-city index. Initially, prices then rebounded remarkably quickly, turning up in June 2009 — around the time the recession bottomed and well before the peak in unemployment — and climbing 5 percent in the following 12 months.
But that turns out to have been a false dawn. Even cheaper money, extra tax incentives and higher loan limits at the now government-owned Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and at the Federal Housing Administration helped produce the rebound, but it fizzled out in the months after the tax breaks were withdrawn in April 2010.
A renewed house price decline has set in, with the January reading of the Case-Shiller index 4 percent down from its mini-peak seven months earlier — although the index remains just above the post-crisis trough level.
Meanwhile, U.S. new home sales in February fell 28 percent from the previous year to a record low pace. The inventory of new homes rose to 8.9 months’ sales, although this is an improvement on the 12 months’ worth of stock two years ago. Existing home sales also declined slightly in February from a year earlier.
U.S. employment trends have turned positive in recent months, which will help prices. So will mild inflation, which increases housing affordability. But there are factors that point to a significant further decline. First, interest rates remain artificially low, and with inflation beginning to accelerate, they are declining in real terms. This has brought the NAR’s affordability index to an all-time peak of 192.3 in February. That suggests even the current level of house prices may be flattered by low mortgage costs.
Second, the already high level of reported housing inventories may not tell the whole story. Homes going through the foreclosure process and those that cannot currently be sold because the owners are underwater on their mortgages represent an additional, invisible overhang.
Looked at against history, American house prices are still well over 30 percent above the cyclical low in September 1993 in real terms, adjusting the long-running Case-Shiller 10-city index for inflation. On a more thorough analysis, economist Gary Shilling believes house prices have a further 20 percent to fall. That may be too pessimistic, but prices surely face headwinds from the foreclosure pipeline and high levels of inventories.
…
I heard from my buddy yesterday who said that the loan limits for conventional loans will be reduced come summer. From $417,000 to $370,000. Nice ten percent cut. Watch prices in that category to plummet correspondingly.
It’s unnerving that the mainstream media is now treating the real estate market as if it were national and not local.
There was a time when every house in the nation was overpriced. It was then that everyone in the MSM was insisting that all real estate is local. Nowadays, there are some places where real estate is cheap in comparison to rents and incomes. So why now does the MSM keep tacitly implying that the real estate market is national?
I realize these people are journalists and not economists, but there are plenty of economists, etc (such as Ben Jones) who could explain it to them if they were willing to listen.
The housing bubble that inflated in the run-up to 2006 owed much to the Federal Reserve’s policy. During and after the 2001 recession, the Fed under Chairman Alan Greenspan held interest rates very low, and well below inflation. That coincided with a political environment and tax benefits — like the mortgage interest deduction — that encouraged home ownership, and was capped by financial technology that allowed mortgages to be repackaged and resold so that the original lenders retained no risk.
Yet thanks to low interest rates, the National Association of Realtors’ affordability index remained above its long-term average even as the ratio of the typical house price to income soared to unprecedented levels above five times, compared with a long-term average around three times.
It all seems so obvious now. However, back when it was happening, it seemed to be, well, hidden from view. Except on outposts like this-here HBB. Been here for almost five years, and this party is still a blast.
Do the Defenders of the Mortgage Interest Deduction ever acknowledge that it amounts to Welfare for the Wealthy, with the lion’s share of the tax reduction benefits accruing to the top 1%-ers who could afford to pay cash outright for their homes but don’t, in order instead to take welfare payments from Uncle Sam?
As the U.S. government looks under every rock for spending cuts, here’s an intriguing thought: What happens if Washington takes this opportunity to take down the tax break on mortgage interest?
“We believe there is a growing risk that the mortgage interest deduction could fall victim to the deficit reduction mantra,” MF Global said in a research note.
Deal Journal has this reaction: Yeah, right.
We know fiscal asceticism is the new black, but Congress doesn’t have the guts to take on the popular mortgage tax break, which defenders say makes the cost of homes within reach for Americans. The real-estate and mortgage industries also would fight tooth or nail if the deduction moves to the chopping block.
…
The U.S. should consider capping or cutting the popular tax deduction for mortgage interest as it prepares to debate what should replace mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the International Monetary Fund said Wednesday.
The IMF, in an analysis of housing finance systems around the world, said an Obama administration paper released earlier this year makes progress toward needed changes in the U.S. mortgage system. But the report criticized the U.S. for not tackling the popular tax deduction for mortgage interest, which the report termed “expensive and regressive.”
The U.S. government’s support of the housing market “has been pervasive but has not yielded many of the expected benefits to prospective or existing homeowners,” the report said. “It is clear that an overhaul is needed.”
“As a first step, we would very much recommend that the U.S. would at least cap the mortgage interest deductability,” said Ann-Margret Westin, an IMF senior economist and one of the authors of the housing report. She approved of the recommendation by the U.S. fiscal commission to halve the mortgage limit for deductions and to let it apply only to private residences, but the IMF said any such move would have to be undertaken over time.
The report is one chapter of the IMF’s larger annual Global Financial Stability Report that will be published in full next week.
…
Who is the International Monetary Fund anyway? I agree with what their saying RE the MID, but I am sensitive to “international” organizations that attempt to surpercede elected governments. We the people didn’t vote for the IMF, did we? If not, then why do they feel entitled to tell us what to do? It’s weird.
This is to be expected. It helps if you realize the entire Congressional effort to take the Wall Street fraud perpetrators to task amounts to nothing but a Grand Kabuki Dance to entertain the sheeple.
Yesterday, Carl Levin introduced his long and relatively effective report on the financial crisis. It focused on four major aspects: mortgage fraud, weak and deferential regulation, the credit rating agencies and investment bank malpractice with mortgage bonds.
Levin said that he referred some issues to the Justice Department for potential prosecution. But we can actually judge how these issues have been dealt with to this point. As Gretchen Morgensen and Louise Story laid out yesterday, the FBI scaled back its mortgage fraud investigations in 2008, even after highlighting the practice in a report as far back as 2005. On the regulation front, we’re eventually getting rid of the OTS, which was highlighted in the report. But their role in the heinous consent decree on foreclosure fraud shows that they remain the model for bank-friendly regulation at the federal level.
…
Overtaxed has already provided the answer to his (?) dilemma and that is not to marry. If he has assets and she doesn’t, when the marriage dissolves (which is likely these days), she will want and get some of those assets. Prenups are sticky anyway since if you put in all the clauses with real teeth the other party will feel affronted and you’ll be having the first of many big fights.
I’m an older person involved in business and the marriage which produced my children ended 17 years ago. I’ve had several relationships since then with other women, but have rebuffed all advances about marriage because I only want to keep company, not have my assets and my childrens’ inheritance basis compromised. Marriage for the specific mutual goal of raising children is the only valid reason for doing it and if Overtaxed is not doing it for that reason, then why give it any further thought…
Good point. You and Fisher have made excellant points. Marriage is good for those who want to produce children. After the “chillun” are gone from the nest, time to split, but that split is expensive. So even for those who reproduce, they have to marry someone they really love.
And Fisher’s point reads right out of Harry Browne’s book. People are more individualistic these days than ever. Including women. People change their values far more often and radically than our parents generation. So the spouse you get now may be a complete stranger to you in fifteen years.
Yet it’s “normal” to pair up and have kids. I have no trouble with that. It’s the meme I have trouble with, that you absolutely must be married to have kids. A friend of mine cohabitated with a woman for seven years and they had kids - they ended up getting married, but not before having kids.
I’m still the “odd man out” at work. Most of the male engineers are married. There are probably a number of the older ones who are divorced. But these guys still accept the meme about marriage.
I realize that you are blocking my comments through the Joshua Tree Extension, but I will say this again to you anyway. NO WOMAN IN HER RIGHT MIND IS GOING TO SACRAFICE HER LIFE FOR YOU AND YOUR KIDS IN EXCHANGE FOR NOTHING. You have been holding out for this self-loathing woman your entire life. It’s not gonna happen. Why not just shell out the dough and stop being such a hardask? Get yourself a nice, age-appropriate wife (if it’s not too late), have a couple kids, be nice to them all, and everything will work out just fine.
Sometimes you just gotta play it straight, mister.
NO WOMAN IN HER RIGHT MIND IS GOING TO SACRAFICE HER LIFE FOR YOU AND YOUR KIDS IN EXCHANGE FOR NOTHING.
Yet so many do, attaching themselves to jerks who cheat on them. Of course you could argue that they aren’t in their “right mind”, but there sure seem to be plenty of them, willing to play house and sexually service unfaithful jerks, while the nice guys end up with gals who take them to the cleaners in divorce court (often dumping them for a jerk).
Get yourself a nice, age-appropriate wife (if it’s not too late), have a couple kids, be nice to them all, and everything will work out just fine.
Maybe.
I often don’t see eye to eye with Bill, but he has a point. Marriage has become a risky business for “nice” men. If you’re going to hitch your wagon to a woman, you’d better be 100% certain that you can trust her in the long haul.
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Comment by Bill In Phoenix and Tampa
2011-04-16 14:05:21
To Big V
I would not want anyone to sacrifice their life for me. I am no socialist! Geez.
I just think the concept of getting the State as the third partner in a relationship is only for the lovers of government, and we have a few on the HBB. I could not ever understand how a woman thinks that by getting Uncle Sam involved in her relationship, somehow it’s wholesome and not dirty. This was the final thing between my girlfriend and I. She wanted marriage and I did not. Why spoil a good thing by bringing government into our relationship?
Comment by Bill In Phoenix and Tampa
2011-04-16 14:09:03
To Colorado - I have a hard time trusting even men these days, so it would be tougher to trust a woman without a background check including her siblings and parents. I will let the government do the background checks for me if somehow my brain signals short circuit and I decide I gotta marry.
Comment by Big V
2011-04-16 14:40:47
Yeah, Bill, because women are more dangerous than men. Geez Louise. You should have married your GF so she could stay in the country. You obviously didn’t care about her at all. This conversation is depressing.
Comment by Happy2bHeard
2011-04-16 18:58:28
“I have a hard time trusting even men these days, so it would be tougher to trust a woman without a background check including her siblings and parents.”
You live in a bizarro world. If you don’t trust someone, I don’t understand why a background check would help. You eliminate those who have a questionable history, but that doesn’t necessarily predict their future actions. And some people with questionable histories have learned from their mistakes.
Big V, I suspect Bill feels he understands men better than women. So it is easier for him to trust them.
Comment by Bill in Phoenix and Tampa
2011-04-17 08:01:25
I understand that people of both sexes today want to cheat others. 95% of them.
And a background check helps, particularly for the clearance level where you have to get interviewed by a government cop, and the cop interviews your family, neighbors, past spouses, past supervisors. They check if you have an arrest record, your bank account, your credit, whether you walked away from a real estate contract, and so on.
If they ban atheists - my career is over!
But anyway you have to be 100% honest and not hold anything back. If they ask a general question “is there anything else that you can tell me about alcohol, drugs, foreign trips, whatever that I did not bring up?” - well you gotta tell all. Because they may be testing you with that question alone and already know more than you volunteered.
That’s the type of background check I had been through and what they want is someone who is far more honest than the average Joe. What I want is someone more honest than the average jane. What I assume out on the streets is different.
It should be of no surprise that out of 30 friends, all but one of them had to go through background checks. And I have long time friends from over 20 years ago.
Actually the norm is no longer to pair up for children. For a couple of years now, single parent families have been the majority lifestyle for child rearing in America. So now, what use is the conventional institution of marriage to the society?
I seem to recall reading that kids raised by a “single parent” (i.e. their mother) are far more likely to live in poverty and be recipients of those welfare benefits we all hate to pay taxes to fund.
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Comment by fisher
2011-04-16 09:43:03
True dat. I read the same. Just say’n the norm is no longer what we may remember it to be. This New Normal covers a lot different stuff… and dang if it doesn’t always lead back to poverty somehow!
Comment by Hwy50ina49Dodge
2011-04-16 10:10:47
This New Normal covers a lot different stuff… and dang if it doesn’t always lead back to poverty somehow!
x2 income$ = How “home$” will-one-day-beshould be are priced.
BWAHAHAHicHAHAHicHAHAHAHAHicHAHAHic* (DennisN™)
Comment by ecofeco
2011-04-16 16:25:44
72 million people making $500 or less a week says you’re right.
“So the spouse you get now may be a complete stranger to you in fifteen years.”
This is always true. You will not be the same person in 15 years either. Sometimes it doesn’t take 15 years. My husband became a quite a bit different after a cardiac arrest caused brain damage. Fortunately, his sense of humor is intact.
We have cash, we have mobility and would love to buy us a shanty in lower Delaware but I cannot or will not walk away from high $$(high for me) employment for what is certain to be less opportunity there. All the dumps in New England(northeastern upstate NY, VT) are in foreclosure purgatory and “the market” is seized up there because prices are so absolutely grossly inflated. Kent and Sussex County Delaware have massive amounts of inventory. Massive…. most of it is new and the asking prices are grossly inflated even though they’re much more affordable to us. It’s a case of *bring your money with you* because you’re not going to earn much here which is the case with FL, AZ and NV. Even though I commuted back to NY from lower DE for two years, don’t think I could do it again in reverse(live in DE and work in NY during week). Commuting from NYC area back home to VT each weekend is less arduous than NYC to lower Delaware but still difficult. If only the Realtor Crime Syndicate weren’t price-fixing in VT, we’d make the move.
Patience is hard to come by but the choice is clear;
A) Continue saving and maintain mobility in the tri-state area
B) Empty bank account, lose mobility and be stuck in an area (New England? Delaware?) where economic opportunity is doubtful.
By 2004, the reality of this new economic paradigm of doubtful employment and ever lower wages dawned on us and we stand by it now. That paradigm will obliterate the Realtor Crime Syndicate effort to enslave the public by artificially inflating housing prices.
We like lower DE and I lived there for 2 years. My wife and daughter would move there while I worked in NY(or wherever they assign me). I could “own” a house here too (we actually do through a family trust) but we all hate living here.
My wife and I are eventually interested in getting some sort of beach house in Delaware, but the prices out there are still insane. I suspect real price reductions won’t happen until people are forced to sell by one means or another. Too many of the sellers are holding onto a dream that this is just a temporary condition.
There are condo buildings near the ocean, but they were built some number of years ago (70’s?). We stayed in one as a rental - condo fees are close to 1000$/mo (due to the age of the building constant maintenance is required). While these buildings were mainly built to be investment properties (pulling in rental income), the current prices are far too high for that any more. At some point price speculation drove the prices even higher, and sellers haven’t faced up to that yet.
If you go away from resort areas, prices are far more reasonable, but I am baffled by some of the housing developments out in the middle of nowhere. The only thing I can think of is that some of these would be the first home that people buy once they retire, but that’s just a guess. If you go too far north, you have folks trying to commute to Newark.
In some areas the farmers were able to sell their land to developers and make a pantload, but those days are largely over as well. I see signs posted all over the place, but very little construction activity.
I don’t monitor anything near the beach at all. Anything within 5 miles of the beach is so delusionally priced that I don’t bother. We canvass everything from High1 west to the MD border from Lewes north to Dover air base. Towns like Marydel and Hartly appeal to us, not Rehoboth and Dewey. We came very close to striking on a place in Felton last year. It was overpriced by about 35% so decided to wait as the place was already on the market a year. Sure enough, some dope came along and gave them asking price. It was a gem but not worth paying 135%. BTW, we want to live there not just a part time gig.
BigV…. We’re not interested in buying in metro ny/nj/ct area.
Heh. My in-laws are near Felton, so I know the area fairly well. I don’t know enough of the neighbors to get any sense of what most of them do for a living however. It seems to have a rural flavor - people like to hunt and fish in their spare time, and outside of town there are soybean and corn fields. Some people there keep animals (cattle, hogs, chickens, goats, etc). If you are cool with that sort of thing, you could fit right in, I guess..
I can’t speak to the price of land in rural areas - there has been a bubble there too in some parts of the country, but I don’t really know what is driving it.
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Comment by Realtors Are Liars
2011-04-16 13:00:44
Yeah anything west of Highway 1 is as rural is you can find anywhere and yes its overpriced still. The appeal anywhere in Delaware is the favorable tax treatment there and it’s situated next to high tax states.
While I have lived in cities for many years, I grew up on a farm elsewhere in the country, so being in rural areas brings back childhood memories. For people who have always lived in a city, I imagine that rural areas must seem kind of strange.
My wife was asking if you remember where the place was in Felton that you were looking at. She was saying that “we might know the dope that payed full price” :-).
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Comment by Realtors Are Liars
2011-04-16 20:50:21
Yes I do.
Black Swamp Rd and the former owner is a “Tina Turner” believe it or not. Sold to some sucker Aug-Sept of last year. It’s a sore subject that I seldom bring up as Mrs. RAL really really liked the place.
My wife and I are eventually interested in getting some sort of beach house in Delaware, but the prices out there are still insane ??
Yeah, wife and I went through the same process…Decided, instead of buying a house on the beach we bought a house that we can bring to the beach…Motor Home…
Do not commute. It will ruin your whole life. If house prices are unaffordable near work, then just wait until they become affordable. You are going to get a great deal, you’ll see.
“Lots of ads on TV lately that are focusing on people who have the IRS on their A$$, many more ads than I remember seeing in the past.”
There was an expose’ a few days ago on one of the biggest companies cited above. The man running the ads and scam is located in Texas. Apparently he is under investigation in several states. One thing you will see from his tv espose’ tape is that he overly indulges on food.
HUD offering government-owned, foreclosed homes for only $100 down
St. Pete Times | Saturday, April 16, 2011 | Mark Puente, Times Staff Writer
Magan Landsiedel and Jeff Smolinski just bought a $133,000 home in Largo. Their down payment: $100.
A typical government-insured mortgage would have required $4,700 down; a conventional lender might have demanded more than $26,000.
But Landsiedel and Smolinski took advantage of a little-known U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development program that lets people buy government-owned foreclosed homes for just $100 down.
Uncle Sam is looking for buyers for 3,451 homes like this in Florida.
Obama is rad. “Do you think we’re stupid”? I love it! He gets caught on the mike saying something the rest of us have been screaming for years. Could not be more perfect.
I’d like to hear more speeches like this off-mike catch. Ever since he spoke here back in January, I’ve been waiting for another hit-it-outta-the-park speech. And I’ve been disappointed.
Come on, Barack, let ‘er rip like you did with your “Gabby opened her eyes!” riff back on January 12 in Tucson. That got us rocking out in chilly Arizona Stadium. And, from what I could see on the Jumbotron, it got the McKale Center crowd going too.
“Does anybody really believe that was an “off mike” moment”?
Of course they do, they have nothing else to believe in, so far Barry has been nothing but a bummer for them. Barry is out raising money to run again, where’s he going to get it? From the likes of Peggy Joesph?
Barry has comported himself swimmingly in office, m’friend. So sorry you have no legitimate complaints. How’d you like his budget proposal? I really liked the way the Repubs would only sign off if he agreed not to use any money towards shutting down Guantanamo Bay. That was sweet. Rebubs are turds.
Oh, the libs are pretty sure it was a setup. And why not? Anytime Obama says something reasonable, the media ignores it in favor of Charlie Sheen. So the O gussies it up as an “off-mike” moment. The media turns on the spooky music and 60’s era footage of film reels, and breathlessly reports… something favorable to Obama.
“Debts must be paid. The alternative is default. The U.S. government’s debts cannot be paid. Yet voters cannot bring themselves to face the reality of default. There has always been a way to delay the day of reckoning. There has always been another central bank rabbit to pull out of the fractional reserve hat. There has always been a way to move the decimal points to the right on the asset side one more time, and move the liabilities off budget. There has always been a way to persuade lenders to lend the drunken government enough money for another night on the town.”
~Dr. Gary North
There has always been a way to move the decimal points to the right on the asset side one more time
“Diz all the Gubmint’s fault!, Diz ALL the Gubmint’s fault!, eye’s just can’t stops meself from cryin’, pissin’, moanin’ every day”
waiting, still waiting…come on wmbz what’s YOUR best guess? $$$$$$$$$$, put it out there for everyone here to see, so you can advance from “nightly worried-daily posted” straight to,… “dread aghast!”.
What’s America’s value? All of it! Every dam, leveled road, each redwood tree, all the coal chunks…I mean how are YOU gonna stop make an “educated blah, blah, blah…guess?” verses, what would really cause you to say: “Eyes declares,…well shut my mouth!”
The convention as long as credit lines were wide open has been to spend our way out of a recession. If we cannot spend our way out of this one then the next step in the death spiral has already begun.
I hate debt, but all those years of 8% returns on investments were all financed with debt. On one side huge “apparent” gains. On the other side vast debts to match.
It’s like our own individual lives. We like to think we are special, but we are no more durable than the smoke and mirrors economy. Just as our lives are no more than sandcastles that wil be washed away by the waves of time, so is it with the paper gains. Here today, gone tomorrow.
Gas prices could soon break July 2008 record
By Gary Strauss, USA TODAY
Gasoline prices, on the rise for more than three weeks, could top all-time highs by Memorial Day.
Nationally, a gallon of regular averages $3.81 — up 10 cents in the past week and nearly 96 cents above year-ago levels. Industry experts say prices could surpass July 2008’s record $4.11 as seasonal demand, speculators and political uncertainty in Libya and the Middle East propel crude oil prices.
“We could easily tack on another 30 to 40 cents a gallon,” says Darin Newsom, senior analyst at energy tracker Telvent DTN.
In some areas, gas has already hit those levels. In Los Angeles, regular averages $4.20 a gallon. In Chicago, it’s averaging $4.17.
Typically, prices peak around July 4, the height of the summer driving season. But escalating prices are already crimping demand and could derail vacation travel, says Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service.
The fast run-up could mean a price plateau by Memorial Day — about six weeks earlier than normal, Kloza says.
As some of you may recall, I decided this past year to go back into the housing market, as I was originally going to relocate some 8 years ago.
The original plans were halted due to BID WARS here in the Tampa Bay Area, most specifically in Pinellas County.
Flipping was becoming a new form of “employment”. I didn’t even know what that was until I met a Condo Buyer who told me he had purchased several new units in Downtown Tampa. I asked how he could afford to buy all these? Was he finding tenants? NO. He was just “flipping them”.
The “end user” was going to end up paying the mortgage.
I was astounded that such a business model could exist in an American Banking system.
But, I digress.
I had a contract on a Freddie Mac foreclosure in October of last year.
We anticipated closing the sale before Thanksgiving, since I was an all-cash buyer. No problems. Did the home inspection. Bought a few pieces of furniture for the new place, ready to move in for the holidays.
Then, the former occupant filed suit, claiming , of course, that the Bank had no right to foreclose and that lack of payment did not constitute a reason for a foreclosure, etc.
My contract was “canceled”.
I rode by yesterday to see if the former “owner” managed to get the house back from Freddie Mac.
House is still vacant, but now, the plants are beginning to die and the appearance of being unkempt is starting to show.
It’s just another vacant property that hasn’t reached settlement.
It was vacant for about 6 months before it made it to the market and sat for several months before I made an offer on the house.
Another case of mortgage purgatory. Decay may be the ultimate owner.
Madness. Utter madness. Although I had to laugh at the thought of the indignant “owner” suing because lack of payment did not constitute a reason for the mean old bank to foreclose.
I have learned to recognize then when an asset price suddenly and wildly accelerates. Gold not so much, but silver up $18 in the past 90 days is way off the charts. I may be wrong and silver could easily hit $50 soon, but I doubt current values will hold in the medium long term.
In another 5 years it will most likely be higher, but in one year?
Mortgage Problems Still a Big Drag on Bank Earnings ~ CNBC
If there’s one takeaway from the banks’ first-quarter earnings this week, it’s got to be this: Mortgages are still a real problem.
“We have homes sitting there for 500 days rotting that we can’t do anything about,” says Jamie Dimon, chief executive at JPMorgan Chase.
It became evident with JPMorgan Chase’s results on Wednesday. The company beat earnings estimates only because it made so much money trading commodities. The mortgage picture was grim — a $1 billion charge for the increased cost of mortgage servicing thanks to new regulations, and another $650 million for increased foreclosure costs.
“It’s more people, more costs, more compliance rules,” JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon told reporters on a conference call after the bank’s results were released. “It’s going to cost more money” to service mortgages and complete foreclosures.
Those costs rose while JPMorgan’s portfolio of residential mortgage loans shrank 12 percent.
In part, Dimon blames the rising costs on the fact that state attorneys general haven’t been able to reach a universal settlement with the banks on their mortgage servicing. He says it’s making the problem worse. “We have homes sitting there for 500 days rotting that we can’t do anything about,” he said. “That’s not good for anybody.”
Big Gubmint…We’re on it! Actually this may be a success in their eyes, could have been worse.
$513 million paid out in bogus home tax credits
Associated Press
WASHINGTON — The Internal Revenue Service has paid out $513 million in home buyer tax credits to people who probably didn’t qualify, a government investigator said Friday.
Most of the money — about $326 million — went to more than 47,000 taxpayers who didn’t qualify as first-time homebuyers because there was evidence that they already had owned homes, said the report by J. Russell George, the Treasury inspector general for tax administration.
Other credits went to prison inmates, taxpayers who bought homes before the credit was enacted and people who did not actually buy homes.
“The IRS has taken positive steps to strengthen controls and help prevent the issuance of inappropriate home buyer credits,” George said.
“However, many of the actions occurred after hundreds of thousands of home buyer credits had already been issued, including fraudulent and erroneous credits totaling millions of dollars.”
The popular credit provided up to $8,000 to first-time home buyers and up to $6,500 to qualified current owners who bought another home during parts of 2009 and 2010.
IRS spokeswoman Michelle Eldridge said the agency worked hard to enforce a complicated tax credit that provided nearly $29 billion to more than 4 million taxpayers.
This Tax Day, ‘Farms’ Owned by the Rich Provide Massive Tax Shelter
For all those feeling the pinch this Tax Day, rest assured America’s wealthiest one percent have no idea what you’re going through. Not only have they shaved a projected collective $121 billion off their income taxes thanks to Bush’s tax cuts for the rich but, thanks to misuse of agricultural tax breaks, many will not end up paying their fair share of property taxes either
Take Michael Dell, founder of Dell Computers and the second-richest Texan, who qualified for an agricultural property tax break on his sprawling 1,757-acre residential ranch in suburban Austin and saved over $1 million simply because his family and friends sometimes use the land as a private hunting preserve to shoot deer. Or take billionaire publisher Steve Forbes, who got more than a 90 percent property tax reduction on hundreds of acres of his multimillion-dollar estate in upscale Bedminister, New Jersey, just by putting a couple of cows out to pasture. They are not alone. All across the country, a huge number of America’s wealthiest are tapping into agricultural tax breaks—and none of them have to do any real farming to qualify.
Not only are agricultural tax breaks allowing wealthy landowners to shift their tax burden onto other less-affluent taxpayers but they are also helping bankrupt public schools, which derive the bulk of their funding from local property taxes.
MY COLLEAGUE and I have something in common: we both think concentrations of power in alliances between gargantuan business instititutions and gargantuan government institutions are generally terrible. My colleague and I don’t have much in common in how we analyse the formation of those concentrations of power, or what we think should be done about them. Another thing my colleague and I have in common is that we each think the other guy’s approach to this problem is hopelessly naive. And another thing we don’t have in common is that I largely agreed with Joseph Stiglitz’s article in Vanity Fair, which my colleague describes as an example of self-refutingly absurd liberal ideology.
To sum up the basic thrust of what I agree with in Mr Stiglitz’s piece: I think the rich are getting much, much richer, while regular people (in the developed world, which is what we’re talking about here) are at best treading water. I think that wealth brings power, and the fact that the rich are getting much, much richer relative to everyone else means that the rich also exert increasing influence over the economy, government and society. I think income mobility and equality of opportunity have declined in America over the past 40 years, to the point where America is now more segregated by class divisions than many European countries. I think a major reason for these shifts has been the increasing dominance, since the Reagan era, of an ideology that is indifferent to or actively celebrates inequality of income. I think this ideology is bad: bad for the economy, bad for society, bad for art and culture, bad for the moral character of those who subscribe to it. My chief difference with Mr Stiglitz is that I think his confidence that inequality will eventually lead to a vociferous political reaction against wealthy financial elites in America is misplaced.
Why does he have to “think” the rich are getting richer when you can just look up the numbers and see that the American “rich” saw approx. 300% income gains over the last 2 decades.
Anybody here who saw their income go up 300% in the same years?
This is a point I”ve made with several of my conservative friends.
We all fear the same thing. A small group of elite taking power, our liberties and our wealth.
The right thinks that the problem is gov and we need to shrink it.
The left thinks that it’s corporations that have taken over government and are using it like a tool to fleece America.
As with most things I say follow the money. When prisdents are worth 10’s of billions such as (Putin,Sadam,Quadafi,Shaw, Mubarek etc) When they can and do throw the business elite in jail at a whim. When they don’t leave power. That’s when the problem is gov. Our politicians are puppets. They get thrown some high priced trinkets but they don’t make what the elite Wall Street CEO’s make not even close. It is not our gov throwing the Wall Street elite and CEO’s into jail or removing them from power but just the opposite. If a politician doesn’t tow the line (ie Russ Feingold) they are removed with an avalanch of money and propaganda from the MSM. The MSM is not controlled by the gov but by the financial elite. The problem is the elite in this country not the gov. Shrinking gov will just increase their advantage, in fact that’s exactly why they are funding the union busting. That’s exactly why they try to defund regulatory agencies or sabatage them by getting their lobbiests appointed. That’s why they want to roll back regulation, Enron made a killing on deregulated markets in California.
The gov is at best Kabuki theater to distract the masses and at it’s worse a tool that has been taken over by the elite which they now weild to destroy America.
“I think that wealth brings power, and the fact that the rich are getting much, much richer relative to everyone else means that the rich also exert increasing influence over the economy, government and society.”
From the article
The Real Housewives of Wall Street
Christy is the wife of John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley. Susan is the widow of Peter Karches, a close friend of the Macks who served as president of Morgan Stanley’s investment-banking division. Neither woman appears to have any serious history in business, apart from a few philanthropic experiences. Yet the Federal Reserve handed them both low-interest loans of nearly a quarter of a billion dollars through a complicated bailout program that virtually guaranteed them millions in risk-free income.
Why is the Federal Reserve forking over $220 million in bailout money to the wives of two Morgan Stanley bigwigs?
Damn the system that makes it ok to steal the taxes at the point of a gun to pay hundreds of billions to a select few people and then blame the $15/hr janitor for the fraud.
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Comment by clark
2011-04-16 22:45:01
Cept, if no one would volunteer to be the janitor the select few would have less of a reason to point the gun to raise the tax. But that’s like asking the squirrel to resist the cob of corn inside the trap, eh?
Christy is the wife of John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley. Susan is the widow of Peter Karches, a close friend of the Macks who served as president of Morgan Stanley’s investment-banking division. Neither woman appears to have any serious history in business, apart from a few philanthropic experiences. Yet the Federal Reserve handed them both low-interest loans of nearly a quarter of a billion dollars through a complicated bailout program that virtually guaranteed them millions in risk-free income.
Why is the Federal Reserve forking over $220 million in bailout money to the wives of two Morgan Stanley bigwigs?
J6P won’t care, he’s too busy polishing his pickup truck. If he’s worried about anything, it’s the possibility of an NFL lockout or strike. After all, his own self identity is tied to the local NFL franchise. If the Broncos can make a comeback its all good.
He won’t care because he won’t find out about it. Seriously this is F’n theft on a MASSIVE SCALE. In days of old this would be all over the media and politicians would have been howling about it.
Now the MSM and our politicians are owned by the wall street elite.
This reads like the financial operations of a banana republic’s dictator.
It is truly crony-plutocracy.
This is a remarkable story.
It sounds truly Randian. In that universe, you have a group of elites from whose well being the well being of the rest of society emanates.
The qualities those at the top of the financial sector posses are rare. But what of value have they left in their wake? The robber barons left massive infrastructure. These people just left… massive debt. Massive virtual casinos where people bet on just about anything. Gambling is usually illegal - except when the state runs it in the form of the metastasizing lotteries, sucking in more and more from those least able to afford it. Or massive derivatives markets where the house - the market makers - always wins.
Volcker wondered what of actual value had all this “financial innovation” of the past 30 years yielded. He concluded one thing - the creation of the ATM. And that can be debated too, as it allows people instant access to empty their accounts.*
I hope this story gets some serious circulation.
Which reminds me, I still need to order The Inside Job. Might do that now. Watching in dropped-jaw amazement of the brazenness of the government and financial sector elite is quite eye-opening.
* citation: "“I wish somebody would give me some shred of evidence linking financial innovation with a benefit to the economy.”
Mr. Volcker’s favorite financial innovation of the past 25 years? The ATM. “It really helps people, it’s useful.”
Read the RS article. READ IT.The level of arrogant theft is stunning. Absolutely stunning. And to think that to this day, there are wages slaves right here on this blog who pandering for these mother f@#$%ers.
On a more positive note (not to downplay the above) on the A.M. radio today I heard a radio program highlighting being debt free and having the house PAID off.
The radio show host said that having a PAID off house is the “new’ BMW.
The theme of the show was highlighting People who had paid off debt and were now free and clear. Talk about being in the Twilight Zone, this was different.
One couple, $55,000 in debt erased it all in 21 months, had an emergency fund and were celebrating by going to Disney World. Ask me and they should have been saving that money too, especially because the wife was a public school teacher. The husband was a landscaper doing well installing patios in spite of the downturn. I think their key was going from ~$98,000 per yr. income to ~$108,000 income. The husband said his was the increase in income.
It was just strange listening to this on the radio.
(Reuters) - The U.S. securities regulator is in talks with major Wall Street banks to settle fraud allegations relating to the sale of toxic mortgage bonds that helped unleash the financial crisis, the Wall Street Journal reported, citing sources familiar with the matter.
The first settlement with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) could be reached as soon as next week, while some of the other deals could take months to work out, the WSJ said.
SEC’s negotiations with the banks include JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup Inc, Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, now an unit of Bank of America, and UBS, according to the Journal.
…
Related News
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Fri, Apr 15 2011
* Swiss stocks - Factors to watch on April 15
Fri, Apr 15 2011
* UPDATE 5-Morgan Stanley’s Gorman made $15.2 mln in 2010
Thu, Apr 14 2011
* Senate panel slams Goldman in scathing crisis report
Thu, Apr 14 2011
* Regulators probe whether banks colluded in Libor: report
Thu, Apr 14 2011
See how guys who follow Cramer end up? BwaHahahhahaHAHaHAhAHAHAaHHASAHAAHAAAAAA!!!!
Money & Company
Tracking the market and economic trends
that shape your finances. Lenny Dykstra charged with bankruptcy fraud April 15, 2011 | 1:39 pm
…
U.S. prosecutors Friday charged famed baseball outfielder Lenny Dykstra with bankruptcy fraud.
According to a statement by prosecutors, Dykstra was taken into custody at his Encino home Thursday night. The charge relates to fraud Dykstra allegedly committed involving the sale of items from a Ventura County mansion he owned.
“The federal charges stem from a bankruptcy case that Dykstra filed on July 7, 2009,” the statement said. “The criminal case filed in U.S. District Court alleges that Dykstra removed, destroyed and sold property that was part of the bankruptcy estate without the permission of the bankruptcy trustee.
According to prosecutors, “Dykstra admitted in a bankruptcy hearing to having arranged the sale of sports memorabilia and a dresser that were property of the bankruptcy estate; and Dykstra “ripped out” a $50,000 sink from his mansion and took granite from the mansion and installed it in an office he set up at the Camarillo airport after he had filed for bankruptcy protection.”
As his baseball career wound down, Dykstra gained success as a businessman, first with a luxury car wash in Corona that the ballplayer dubbed “the Taj Mahal” of car washes. He then expanded the business to other parts of Southern California and in 2007 sold it to investors.
Dykstra also took his head-first style to Wall Street after teaching himself financial analysis and striking up a friendship with CNBC “Mad Money” host Jim Cramer, who hired Dykstra to write a stock-picking column for his influential website, TheStreet.com.
…
LONG BEACH, N.Y.—Kenneth T. Robinson knew he should walk away. But in an interview with The Wall Street Journal, he says he just couldn’t stop trafficking in insider-trading tips.
It was September 2009—a full 15 years after he’d first gotten involved in an alleged multimillion-dollar fraud that ranks among the longest-running insider-trading cases in U.S. history. The scheme was showing serious cracks: One of Mr. Robinson’s two partners in the alleged crime, his close friend Garrett Bauer, had started throwing around big money—buying fancy homes in Manhattan and Florida and paying with millions in cash.
“I told Garrett it was stupid,” Mr. Robinson said in the interview. He urged Mr. Bauer that they all stop before the cops caught on.
But Mr. Robinson, flipping burgers one recent afternoon in his backyard on Long Island, said he failed to take his own advice. Within just a few weeks, he resumed trying to profit from inside information. “I didn’t think anyone would notice,” he said.
…
Mr. Robinson, the 45-year-old father of two young boys, said he never thought he would trigger their undoing with his own trading. “It didn’t seem like it would raise eyebrows when it wasn’t millions of dollars.”
…
Senate mortgage investigation blasts WAMU, Goldman
Published: Friday, April 15, 2011, 6:00 AM
Updated: Friday, April 15, 2011, 12:11 PM
Jeff Manning, The Oregonian
…
As hard as the report is on WAMU, it’s arguably harder on Goldman Sachs. It doesn’t quite go far as Matt Taibbi, the reporter who in a now legendary Rolling Stone article dubbed Goldman the “great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money.”
But it comes close. The report goes on at length about Goldman’s habit of selling billions of mortgage-backed trash while not revealing to its sucker-buyers that the investment bank was taking massive short positions on the same securities — in effect betting that they would lose value.
One one trade, the report said, “Goldman took 100 percent of the short side of the $2 billion (collateralized debt obligation) betting against the assets” it has just sold.
The securities, predictably, tanked, much to the buyers’ chagrin. Goldman, meanwhile, celebrated. Thanks to its short position, when the mortgage-backed securities lost value, Goldman made a cool $1.7 billion at its customers expense.
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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/IRS-paid-513M-in-undeserved-apf-4212763607.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=6&asset=&ccode=
‘The Internal Revenue Service has paid out more than a half-billion dollars in homebuyer tax credits to people who probably didn’t qualify, a government investigator said Friday…The tax credit for first-time homebuyers was part of President Barack Obama’s economic recovery package enacted in 2009. In November 2009, Congress extended the credit and expanded it to longtime owners who bought new homes.’
‘The popular tax credit helped to stabilize the nation’s slumping housing market. But the extensions and expansion of the credit created a complicated system that made it hard for many taxpayers to determine which credit they qualified for, if any…More than 47,500 taxpayers claimed the first-time homebuyer credit even though there was evidence on previous tax returns that they had already owned a home…The report estimated these people claimed $326 million in credits.’
‘More than 13,400 taxpayers claimed the credit even though they had not yet purchased a home. These people listed future purchase dates on their tax forms. The report estimated these people claimed $97.8 million in credits. The IRS said it believes these estimates are overstated.’
‘More than 1,000 taxpayers said they purchased homes while they were incarcerated in prison, claiming $7.7 million.’
‘More than 2,500 taxpayers claimed credits for buying homes for which at least one other taxpayer also claimed the credit for buying. These taxpayers received $11.4 million.’
‘More than 2,700 taxpayers claimed credits for homes that were purchased before the tax credit went in effect. These taxpayers received $17.6 million.’
‘The IRS disallowed $531,134 in tax credits claimed by 96 taxpayers who were under age 18, making it unlikely they purchased a home.’
Overall, the tax “credit” sows the seeds for further declines in the general economy, as everyone who took it now must pay an extra $500 in taxes per year for the next 15 years.
Some of these lucky buyers will get to pay it back in one lump sum, with interest and penalties!
I understand that some people are stupid or only hear what they want to hear. That being said…It is one thing to be scammed by lying Realtors and Mortgage peddlers, but to have the government pile on by dangling this carrot and hiding the a$$ reaming in the fine print, that is just down right cruel and reeks of Fascism.
but to have the government pile on by dangling this carrot and hiding the a$$ reaming in the fine print, that is just down right cruel and reeks of Fascism.
You’re quite the fence hopper, first this side, then the other…
but, but, but,… eyes thought yous was all for “personal responsibility” slickiniki, who made ‘em sign uh, was cousin jethro twisting their
earnipples?Haha…My point was that in this case the Government was working on behalf of the NAR, Banks, and others to promote home sales by dangling the 7500 carrot and burying the a$$ reaming. I call that fascism.
The individuals that signed up for this nonsense are completely responsible for their own actions, the government should not be participating in this type of collusive scam.
Ignore’ el trolle’…
Cash for Clunkers anyone ? Now, Cash for Condos!
“as everyone who took it now must pay an extra $500 in taxes per year for the next 15 years”
I think that was just the first year. The next one it was a real credit.
That is correct Polly. There was a 20 something coworker who was very proud to have just bagged a new house and the original tax credit. A year later I mentioned that they had extended it and you didn’t have to pay the new one back. He squealed “but that’s unfaiiiiiiiiiir!”. Moments like that truly are priceless. His horrified introduction to the tyranny of HOA rules was also quite amusing. Ahhh, youth. For the record I did try to talk him out of buying.
None of these statistics includes the $ figure that IMHO eventually will be much larger. Tax credits for first-time homebuyers who defaulted on their loans.
Although I have got to give it up for those incarcerated
prisoners, claiming $7.7 million. I wonder if any of those prisoners were former Realtors or mortgage brokers?
‘The Internal Revenue Service has paid out more than a half-billion dollars in homebuyer tax credits to people who probably didn’t qualify, a government investigator said Friday…”
This is presumably an easy half-billion for the IRS to recover, as there are public records on when homes were purchased, making it clear who was eligible and who wasn’t. If there is a cost of collecting, perhaps the IRS could slap on penalties to recover them. I’m sure the IRS tzar will be on board with this plan, given his stellar record of compliance.
What, you don’t like subsidizing the MBA, NAR and NAHB?
This is presumably an easy half-billion for the IRS to recover, as there are public records on when homes were purchased, making it clear who was eligible and who wasn’t.
Not only that, the IRS employs quite a few people whose jobs are to hunt down tax cheats. And those folks are quite diligent.
“And those folks are quite diligent.”
Funny — an image of Jeff Bridges popped into my head just as I read that…
” ‘The popular tax credit helped to stabilize the nation’s slumping housing market. But the extensions and expansion of the credit created a complicated system that made it hard for many taxpayers to determine which credit they qualified for, if any…”
So it stabilized the housing market ? Where I live, both sales and prices are tumbling and foreclosures are rising rapidly. Most of the news I see from other parts of the country indicates the same thing. I’m dubious about this claim.
‘More than 1,000 taxpayers said they purchased homes while they were incarcerated in prison, claiming $7.7 million.’
It’s great to know the first-time home buyer tax credit went to such good use. Frankly, I had no idea it was even legally possible to purchase a home when in prison, much less to claim a tax credit. Perhaps the prisoners were real estate investors, as it would be quite challenging to be an end-user owner occupant while serving a prison term.
2009 story:
WESTON —
Looking to relocate? A nice home just hit the market in Weston.
If you long for a quaint, small place to put your feet up, relax, and never have to worry about getting lost in your own home, this abode might not fit your style.
Those who want their new digs to include a hair salon, private spa, home theater and a waterfall, however, can step to the front of the line. Interested buyers should also be prepared to have their wallets become $24.5 million lighter.
Even in the sour real estate market, sales in towns like Weston, Wellesley, Sherborn and Natick have fared well, said Dickerson, who, along with Julie Harrison, is the broker for the listing.
“We have seen no negative effects on the high-end, upscale sales since many homeowners are currently building $20 million-plus homes in neighborhoods as we speak,” she said.
Read more: http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/archive/x511160898/Weston-mansion-is-an-abode-above-all#ixzz1JgQKkmLA
Back on the Market:
http://www.redfin.com/MA/Weston/5-Willow-Rd-02493/home/8786171
Julie and Miss Dickerson are misinformed….
I ride my bike through Weston and Wellesley a couple of times a week. Last summer, I was shocked at how many places were for sale in those towns. I still saw numerous for sale signs in fall. It will be interesting to see if it’s the same this year.
my brother lives in the third “W” town, Winchester. He says a realtor acquaintance of his said in confidence, the $1mm and up market is dead, and there is a ton of inventory.
Here in Tucson, the affluent nabes are Sam Hughes, El Encanto, Colonia Solana, and Tucson Country Club. When I pedal through them, I see quite a few “for sale” signs. Some of which have been creaking in the breeze for years.
The Hughes development appears to best positioned with respect to the University.
I make a proposal that we strike ‘quaint’ from the english language.
That’s got to be the most overused Realtard term known to man.
“quaint” = small and outdated (and overpriced)
Fixer-upper = overpriced POS
Doll house = even tinier than quaint.
Natick? That’s the first place I lived w/hubby before he was hubby. That’s where he lived for 10 years before we met. I can see why the other towns mentioned would hold value but Natick is by no means in the same league. Whenever I think of Natick I think of ubiquitous prostitution…ok and The Villa Restaraunt on Rte 30 where you could walk into the bar at 11 am to witness old drunk ladies sucking down manhattens w/ cigarettes hanging out of their mouths while they played Keno.
Have to wonder about the accuracy of their earnings reports…
Two of the city’s top delinquent landlords are not landlords at all. They’re banks.
City officials said Wells Fargo & Co. and Bank of America owe more than $80,000 in fines for allowing many vacant properties in foreclosure to fall into disrepair and blight neighborhoods.
Yet both banks, two of the nation’s largest, question whether they are responsible for the properties and tickets. Wells Fargo representatives, for example, said they don’t even know if they own many of the homes; Wells Fargo could be servicing a foreclosure for another bank, or acting as a trustee for a giant pension fund that holds the mortgage.
“It is confusing as to why we’re being fined,” spokesman Tom Goyda said about citations issued to the bank.
Now, with banks holding a record number of abandoned and foreclosed homes, many of those properties have become magnets for vandalism, arson, and drugs as banks and local officials try to sort out — and often dispute — who is responsible. Meanwhile, local government officials and taxpayers are left to clean up the mess.
“The problem is so big it doesn’t fit on my desk,” said William J. Good III, commissioner of Boston’s Inspectional Services Department. “I’ve never seen anything like it — maybe my mother once did during the Depression.”
http://articles.boston.com/2011-04-15/business/29422424_1_bank-of-america-employees-delinquent-landlords-wells-fargo
“example, said they don’t even know if they own many of the homes;”
WF a bunch of F’n criminals. How long would it take to look this information up. If I were the city I’d start tacking on expensive late fees and putting leans on these properties and taking them over.
It is actually a really good enforcement strategy for short staffed agencies. You know that *someone* owes the penalty because the violation is obvious. You send the bill to the organization that seems to be responsible as far as you can tell. Either they are responsible and pay, or they think they aren’t and try to prove to you that they aren’t. If they are correct and they aren’t responsible, then when they demonstrate that to you, they will likely be giving you what you need to figure out who is.
Entirely unethical if you know ahead of time that the people you send the bills to aren’t responsible, but perfectly fine if you are really sending them to the person you think is on the hook.
It all goes back to MERS. Who has the title to the property?
This whole system should have been shut down by local and state government officials when they were being cheated out of their proper documentary and title transfer fees and taxes.
It has, however, allowed banks to provide “securitization” of loans to sell and dissect and transfer all around the world, resulting in lots of money-making and fraud.
In the final analysis, MERS should be shut down, and we need to go back to doing LOCAL registration of all mortgages and DEEDS, so you can simply go to the local courthouse and find out who has recorded a transfer of sale, who the trustee might be, and who actually has a claim against a property. The “ELECTRONIC REGISTRATION”, without the PAPER documents is to easy to forge and doesn’t provide a mechanism to assure proper title. The ENTIRE legal profession should have opposed this, as lacking sufficient proper verification of information. The way its set up, anyone can file a claim on the system.
Its a lot like the electronic “birth certificate” posted by DAILYKOS for Obama. It’s easily forged, can’t be verified and isn’t even recognized by the State of Hawaii where it originally was supposed to have originated from.
Hawaii only recognizes “CERTIFICATES OF LIVE BIRTH”, i.e. Long form, not “CERTIFICATION of Live Birth”, which is the computer-generated record that says they have some record on file which proves that you are a living person who has resided in Hawaii.
+1 on MERS- a classic example of the dangers of mindless deregulation (Is it really ‘conservative’ to toss aside centuries of legal practice?)
-1 on the lame Obama birther crap. Snopes offers a concise rebuttal:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp
Here in Tucson, there’s this nifty code violation reporting form. One of my fellow neighborhood activists turned me on to it, and I’m glad she did.
I’ve been quite a bit of energy into reporting unkempt properties, especially those which appear to be unoccupied. More than a few of those are in some stage of foreclosure.
People, I don’t know what the city inspector are saying to whoever owns these places, but know this: They’re getting cleaned up pronto-pronto.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to make a call to the graffiti reporting hotline, 792-CITY. Big tagging on a wall up the street and ’round the corner.
“they don’t even know if they own many of the homes”
It would be interesting to see how many of these properties WF has filed foreclosures on.
Cue talking pointwhich blames government for citizen’s bad behavior in 5…4…3…2…
The citizen’s bad behavior, in this case, is due to the way our income taxes are reported.
Citizens file their own taxes, they submit their own figures. The IRS tax machinery accepts these figures as valid and immediatey responds with a check.
It is only later that the returns are scrutinized, but if the filer was a crook then he has already gotten the money.
The 96 trust fund babies were probably not filing their own tax returns.
With any program you have a conflict between getting the money to the deserving and preventing fraud. You see it all the time in disaster relief.
I think the solution is to go back after the fraudsters later, with draconian penalties.
“I think the solution is to go back after the fraudsters later, with draconian penalties.”
And if there’s any government agency that knows how to do this, it would be the IRS.
An agency whose time has come to go.
The income tax = war tax. First instituted by…wait for it… Abraham Lincoln!
Sing along with ole’ Palmetto now:
“Mine eyes have seen the gory of the comin’ of the lard.”
Amen Palmy,
‘Honest Abe’ the father of the Federal Octopus.
‘Honest Abe’ the father of the Federal Octopus.
Kinda late now to “utilize” CSA plan “B”:
Jeff Davis in Southern drag on Confederate 100’s & all plows black!
BWAHAHAHicHAHAHicHAHAHAHAHicHAHAHic* (DennisN™)
And like the “TrueAnger™” / “TrueReduceTheDeficitNow!!!!™” of today: “Now!, …NOW!!!! we’re just plum full of all kinda angry!”
Hwy, I feel like Lee Iacocca in that commercial with Snoop Dog many years ago. Lee says to Snoop, after hearing the dawgs latest string of unintelligible communication.
“I’m not sure what you just said”.
All in good fun my friend.
Lincoln was a Republican…
All in good fun my friend.
“I did not know we had ever quarreled.” H.D. Thoreau
Fear! Fear! Fear!: “the Federal Octopus”
Hwy still muttering (incoherently as usual..):
“Civil Disobedience” is an analysis of the individual’s relationship to the state that focuses on why men obey governmental law even when they believe it to be unjust. But “Civil Disobedience” is not an essay of abstract theory. It is Thoreau’s extremely personal response to being imprisoned for breaking the law. Because he detested slavery and because tax revenues contributed to the support of it, Thoreau decided to become a tax rebel. There were no income taxes and Thoreau did not own enough land to worry about property taxes; but there was the hated poll tax – a capital tax levied equally on all adults within a community.”
Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience then? I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right.
I saw that the State was half-witted, that it was timid as a lone woman with her silver spoons, and that it did not know its friends from its foes, and I lost all my remaining respect for it, and pitied it.
America still has cotton & peaches, how they are “harvested” is reversing to the past-of-yore means to profit$. But there is some “particular” citizens in America who hath NO “TrueAnger™” at this turn-of-events. Nay, rather they seek to speed it’s development, rapido!. Beware the ““TruePurity™”,… beware the “TrueUntouchables™”,… beware the “TrueIndemnified!™”
Lincoln was a Republican…
I know, eyes reminds repubicans of this every opportunity I get.
They’ve seem lost the L in their namesake by “personal choices” :
L, as in Lame
L, as in Lover Boy!
L, as in Linda the Lunch Lady Lives Lavishly!
Lots of ads on TV lately that are focusing on people who have the IRS on their A$$, many more ads than I remember seeing in the past.
Sharks.
“An agency whose time has come to go.”
Cute rhetorical device to equate the agency that enforces laws with the laws themselves. If you mean that all federal taxes should be eliminated, then say so. And then explain that you think the US shouldn’t have a military at all. No federal regulation of banks or any other financial business. No state department. No foreign embassies. No border protection. No food safety enforcement. No CDC. No Medicare. Half of all Medicaid funds go poof and without that incentive a lot of the states would give up on it too. No SS. No nothing. I don’t know where you live, but a lot of states would be in utter chaos in a few months under such a system.
But in the end, it comes down to this: The traffic cop didn’t set the speed limit. If you want no speed limit, talk to the people who passed the rule, not guy who enforces it.
‘If you want no speed limit, talk to the people who passed the rule’
Here’s the problem; “the people who passed the rule” get boatloads of lobbyist money to change the tax code, or protect parts of it. See the comments about the REIC “protecting” the mortgage interest deduction posted today. Or look at how the tax code was changed to “prop up” housing prices with the tax credit. Do you think some campaign contributions traded hands in that deal?
If the way the tax code is created and maintained becomes a corrupting mechanism, it becomes difficult for those of us who don’t have lobbyist in DC to “talk” to those making the rules.
“If the way the tax code is created and maintained becomes a corrupting mechanism, it becomes difficult for those of us who don’t have lobbyist in DC to “talk” to those making the rules.”
As I’ve long maintained, we wage earners have no representation in DC.
What you have described is a system of “Taxation without representation”. Hummm? That sounds familiar.
Polly, you must live in Connecticut or Massachusetts or some similar State. I don’t think the Country would fall apart without all those new agencies or programs that you seem to love.
Most of the Federal Money is wasted. We don’t have “border protection” now. My whole region of Florida is rapidly becoming “latino”, via migrants from Mexico and South America. Once they get a foothold, i.e. a place of residence, the call back to their friends and relatives who just jump in a truck and come on over to take up residence. No questions asked.
Food Safety? It’s a joke. A couple of cases of problems and we need to recall ALL the Spinach, All the eggs, All the meat, in the entire country and destroy it. But they didn’t stop the problem in the first place. If they were doing their job, then none of these cases would have happened.
I think TORT lawyers will be more than happy to chase after any company that sells tainted products. They do it everyday.
We should have scrapped the Department of ‘Education” decades ago. EEOC? Let’s call it what it is: Institutional Racism. Evironmental protection? Remember all the “SUPERFUND” money. Most was wasted on Adminstrative costs and very little was cleaned up. I have one site not far from my home. It has a fence around it. I was contaminated by a greedy operator who dumped waste oil on the site. There has been no “cleanup”, just a warning sign and the site is unusable.
We need government. What we have is a BLOATED menace seeking everymore taxes to expand its reach and power for the primary purpose of provide Healthcare and retirement benefits, along with generous paychecks to Federal, State and Local government workers.
It needs to all be cut back, especially the FEDERAL part.
You’ve got nothing and now you want the rest of us peons to have nothing like you?
No thanks.
The federal government is largely a retirement and health insurance program with an army and a few other functions. The non-security discretionary spending is tiny by comparison.
How many people in Florida are dependent on transfer payments for their jobs? What happens when 80% of the hospitals close because the people with employer provided health insurance use such a small number of the beds? How many people are out of work in Florida when most of the nursing homes and hospitals are gone? What about restaurants? Are all those retirees independently wealthy? There is a huge military presence in Florida. How many jobs go when they are all gone. Bill’s contracting job too. Oh, and Florida will still have the responsibiity of educating all those kids who are born here. They are US citizens. You are welcome to deport their parents, but the kids don’t have to go with them. You going to become a foster parent?
Florida wouldn’t make it for a few weeks if the federal government really shut off. If I had to guess, any state that is willing to let old and poor people die of easily curable medical issues and starve to death will be OK. Similarly big export states, so maybe Wyoming and Alaska. Maine used to be able to hold its own on exports too, but I don’t think the lumber is enough anymore. Long term it would be the big natural resource states that might be able to hold on after the first wave of violence. Think land and fresh water and wind.
You think that a little tainted spinach is a huge problem? You think that people in the US are beyond putting melamine in baby formula like they do in China? I disagree. The spinach issue was a success. They caught the pattern and fixed it. A few people were affected and then it was over. Until the feds came in, they had no idea what caused the problem.
As for tort law, an awful lot of it has to go to federal court because the people are located in different states. If you are located in Florida and try to sue someone in a local Florida court who is located in CA for poisoning your kid, well, unless they own a lot of assets in Florida, you can pound sand. You can’t collect. All they have to do is arrange for their goods to transfer ownership before they are loaded on the truck in CA and they don’t ever have to own an asset in Florida that you can get your hands on.
‘…it becomes difficult for those of us who don’t have lobbyist in DC to “talk” to those making the rules.’
That’s where a blog and a poison keyboard can come in handy…
“talk to the people who passed the rule, not guy who enforces it.”
Polly, you obviously haven’t been the victim of a revenue-raising speed trap.
You have to be speeding to be a victim of a speed trap.
It still isn’t the cop’s fault. He couldn’t enforce a rule that didn’t exist.
And I certainly have been caught in a revenue raising speed trap. Nearly empty highway out in west PA on a Sunday. Got dinged for an extra 10 mph because it was a “construction zone” too even though there was nary a worker in sight since it was a Sunday and no lanes were blocked. I ended up over the limit because I was trying to save gas by letting gravity have its way with me on a down slope.
I paid it (from Canada so it wouldn’t be an overdue ticket on the trip back) and I didn’t blame the cop.
Unions often pull a work slowdown by obeying all of the rules.
Imagine if citizens obeyed all of the laws.
I still haven’t figured out what to do with my burned out energy efficient neon light bulbs.
Here’s an article with a chart showing the relationship between the prices of the raw material food is made from and the prices of the finished product.
Note how the raw materials line (crude, as the author calls it) regularly goes in and out of the zero line, and note how the current prices of raw materials matches up with previous peaks.
http://www.dailymarkets.com/economy/2011/04/15/producer-price-food-inflation-crude-high-and-volatile-vs-consumer-goods-low-and-stable/
And this relates to the prices increases, how?
Good find, but I honestly don’t see its utility.
“Good find, but I don’t see its utility.”
Its utility is how the peaks spawn screaming headlines of a world about to starve to death while the bottoms spawn silence.
The peaks drive the price of farmland to highs but they also entice farmers to plant crops wall-to-wall which causes the peaks to morph into bottoms, and when crop prices fall so will the prices of farmland.
And the beat goes on.
Have a nice trip…..
Prices of new homes in China’s capital plunged 26.7% month-on-month in March, the Beijing News reported Tuesday, citing data from the city’s Housing and Urban-Rural Development Commission.
imarketnews.com/node/29203
Not sure if they fell 26.7% in one month or if they mean yearly if the trend continues which would be 2% per month.
10.9% lower than last year after rising all the way up February, so it could be 26.7% in one month. That’s a sizable move even by Miami standards.
This is way OT (but still somewhat finance related), but I just wondered if anyone else had been through this experience.
I’m getting married in about a year, and my family has significant assets that will be left to me. My father advised that I should look into getting a pre-nup to protect those assets in the event of a divorce.
So, this week, I stroll into the lawyers office with a simply list of things that I would like in a pre-nup. Basically, no alimony for either party, no party has any claim on inheritance in a divorce, and keep some assets separate in the marriage (I have significant stock/company holdings).
What I walked out with was a real education in how all this works. First off, the easiest request (no alimony) is a real nightmare. You can write it in, but that doesn’t mean that the court won’t set it aside. My attorney explained that family court is a “court of equity” not a “court of contracts”. My head really started to spin when he explained that if either partner stopped working “the chance of avoiding alimony goes down dramatically”. Huh? So, if I (or my wife) sits around and drinks beer all day I have a much better chance of getting alimony than if we are out trying to provide for the family? Come again…
The next thing that was surprising was the inheritance. I expected it to be a simple “I give up any rights in divorce to assets X, Y, Z” for both of us. Oh no, not at all so simple. First off, in divorce you’re not even supposed to have rights to either partner’s inherited assets. The lawyer told me “however, it will be litigated, and they will win, they always do”. Ok then..
Anyway, the end result is that we both need to setup special trust accounts to hold all these types of assets to try and prevent them from becoming contested property in divorce. Even if you go through all of that, there’s still a reasonable chance that the other party can get access to the assets, it just would be much harder (read: more legal fees).
Wow, what an education that meeting was. I felt like my head was spinning when I left, I expected this to be so easy (or even to have him tell me, “You’re already protected, you don’t really need to do anything”.) Not so much..
Just wanted to share the experience with others; it was quite enlighting (man, I hope I never have to go to divorce court; I can only imagine how much worse that would be). Also, the biggest piece of advice from the attorney was this “Never let your husband wife stop working, and, if you can’t stop that, make sure that they maintain all their professional licenses and continue to look for a job”. The problem is, if they stop working, it then becomes your problem (even with an alimony waiver, in many cases) to support them moving forward.
Unbelievable system; I can’t think of anywhere else in all of American law where contracts hold so little weight!
I just had a friend spend over 2 1/2 years getting divorced, mostly because of a disagreement about the distribution/value of inherited money that had been the seed money for their business, down payment on the house etc.
The divorce laws vary by state. It was only recently that NY adopted no fault divorce. (Irreconcilable differences.)
If you have a “truly interesting” sum of inherited money it seems to me you’ll probably want to have it in a trust or other shelter to protect you from other potential liabilities as well.
I kind of think some sort of trust is the direction to go, like you are saying here, if Overtaxxed insists on getting married.
I would even look to putting money in an overseas trust. Personally I cannot as easily have an overseas tax shelter since my career puts me and my finances under a magnifying glass.
Personally my best practice is to not get married and hang onto my wealth and enjoy it on small indulgences. If I quit my career then I would look into moving my wealth overseas.
Trusts are pretty complicated, and you need to find a good attorney with good referrals. I would expect Overtaxed’s family to have access to such attorneys.
Depends what you consider “truly interesting” amount of inheritance. I live in S. FL, so down here it wouldn’t be unusual for someone to spend my entire inheritance on a few cars and a trip to a nightclub. But I think it’s an “interesting” amount and worth protecting. Probably (liquidated) mid 6 to maybe 7 figures. Enough for “normal people” to fight over (and a rounding error for the divorce battles that sometimes occur in Palm Beach).
Bill, I’m in the same situation, my finances are currently under a microscope because of my career, an overseas trust is out. But I don’t see any reason I can’t do a “domestic” trust (one based in the US).
I understand the “don’t get married” sentiment. I’m actually of the same general composition. I’ve been living with my fiance for a long time now, and it’s something that she really wants; so, assuming I can get myself protected, I’m willing to do it. But I have no illusions of “wonderment” from the marriage, it’s just a big party that my fiance really, really wants to have. And a big legal headache for me. I love her, and will do it for her, but it’s truly nothing but a legal PITA as far as I’m concerned. It’s also going to make our finances even more complicated, which is certainly something I don’t consider a positive.
set up an offshore trust in the Turks & Caicos, or Grand Cayman. It is extremely difficult for anyone to trace money to you there (that is if you’re future wife does not know about the money). Solictors will change a hefty fee though.
On assets of $1mm or so be prepared to part with $50m…
You have to disclose control of accounts over any account that has as little as $10K in it that is located off shore. I think it is at the bottom of your schedule B.
Guys, you seriously don’t want to mess with FinCEN. Anyone tries to tell you that you can “hide” assets offshore (meaning moving them there and not disclosing on tax forms or not reporting at any other time you have to make financial disclosure) run in the other direction. Run. You want to renounce your US citizenship and go through all the rigamarole of no longer being a US person for income tax purposes, go ahead. Expect it to cost and don’t expect to be able to spend much time here. Have fun living elsewhere.
” but I just wondered if anyone else had been through this experience.”
“I’m getting married in about a year,”
Yes! I have been through that experience, I said that 2 times. This was first posted for X-GSfixr.
A 55 year old man buys a brand new Corvette and takes it out on the turnpike to see what it will do. He punches it and hits 105 mph in a heartbeat. He looks in his rear view mirror and sees blue lights so he floors it and hits 165 mph and watches the blue lights fade out of sight.
He thinks to himself, what am I doing and pulls over and waits for the State Trooper. The State Trooper pulls up behind the man and cautiously approaches the Corvette.
Seeing the how the man doesn’t look like a dangerous criminal and he pulled over the State Trooper says.. Look buddy, my shift ends in 15 minutes and I really don`t want to go through all the paper work this is going to take, so if you can give me one good reason why you did what you did, I will let you go.
The 55 year old man looks at him and says… Officer, 16 years ago my wife ran off with a State Trooper and I thought you were trying to bring her back.
Every stereotype grows from a seed of truth. (including the ones about black people; I know cause Im one of em)
http://www.theonion.com/video/damaged-women-stage-drunken-2-am-march-on-washingt,19840/
Gotta love the Onion.
Your contracts do not change the law.
I got married 40 years ago, my how time flies. It lasted 32 years. It was a good way to raise children, but otherwise I would never consider it.
Your anecdote is not the only one I heard about the worthlessness of pre-nupts.
Marriage is best for young people who are both earning the same income and have very little net worth to begin with. Also where each spouse builds up the same net worth. Then the 50/50 split is no problem.
It also helps by not even building up net worth at all - just spend everything. Don’t own anything.
The alternative is to have a non-marriage. I seriously suggest you read the chapter on non-marriage in the timeless book called “How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World” by Harry Browne. It is like an advice book and discusses how one can make non-marriage work and still enjoy living with your spouse.
Whether or not you choose marriage or non-marriage, I hope you find the best decision. For myself, I am very unsocial and can live alone. I lived alone in my 20s and halfway through my 30s and then lived with a woman in a Harry Browne style non-marriage for three years. We had to separate because she was finished with college and had to return to her country. It was just like marriage except there was no nasty divorce proceedings when we separated (I kept my entire assets).
That is because when you get married the law considers that you have created a new economic unit that consists of both of you. You get rights and responsibilities in that transaction. The underpinning of divorce law in a lot of states (and it varies wildly from state to state) is that it has to be “fair” given that the two people involved had equal rights to the units assets when they were married. You can’t leave one party destitute which is pretty much what happens if an earning a salary partner and a not earning a salary partner part with no provision for income for the not earning a salary partner for at least a while.
I hope you fiance knows about all this and had his/her own attorney and that your attorney told you that he/she needed one right off the bat. If one party signs without representation, judges feel much more justified in throwing out all agreements and dividing everything based on the state’s default rules.
Yes, I am perfectly serious.
Polly,
Yes, she’s got an attorney already as well, and she’s well aware of the process. She was willing to make this concession to have the wedding that she dreams of, and, frankly, if she’s planning on spending the rest of her life with me, a prenup really should not be an issue.
If we were married and got divorced today, she certainly would not be “destitute” but also wouldn’t be able to live the same way that we do together (neither would I frankly, it’s our combined earning that really pushes us to the next level). However, my salary is about 2.5X hers (which is my concern for alimony) but she makes a very good living herself (top 10% earner).
The terrifying thing about all this is that, after we’re married, she can decide to stop working (which I can’t prevent) and then, a few months later file for divorce (also, I can’t prevent) and possibly get a big alimony check for years because she has “no income” and will be left destitute. That’s crap, she’s got great skills and can make a wonderful living, she would just need to go back to work. It’s crazy that if your wife loses her job you’re now in a situation where you’ve not only lost that income, but, should you divorce, you also lose a big portion of YOUR income.
Well, like, I said, that is because you are creating an entirely new financial entity when you get married. You aren’t A and B, two separate entities; you are A+B, just one. When my uncle and his (now) husband adopted their first child, they had to pay an attorney to create all sorts of legal documents to try to approximate some of the legal rights that would have been created automatically if they had been able to get married. Well, your prenup is essentially trying to undo some of that automatic creation of rights to the joint economic unit. It isn’t just contract law and it isn’t supposed to be.
If you don’t want to be a single economic unit, you don’t get married. Though, of course, how long have you been living together. Does Florida have a doctrine of common law marriage? Because, as far as alimony issues are concerned, you might already be a done deal.
I’m glad your fiance has her own representation. I was worried for a bit that the reason your attorney had such a poor view of pre-nups in your state wasn’t because they aren’t ever enforced, but because the ones he writes aren’t ever enforced. Please note that I am NOT a family attorney and not admitted in Florida, so no legal advice is intended, but if you want an agreement between a person who earns X and a person who earns 3X to look more enforceable, include some small provision for alimony (limited amount and for a limited time). If there is something there that is intended to let the lower earning spouse adjust to greatly reduced circumstances (get job if needed, adjust lifestyle, etc.), then it would be much clearer to a judge that it was all discussed and understood and legitimately agreed to under those circumstances. If I were a judge, I would be more likely to enforce that than just a cookie cutter out and nothing agreement. If your finace earns $80K and you earn $240K, well, it is a heck of a lot easier to adjust from $320K to $240K than it is to adjust from $320K to $80K. A lot.
Oh, and make sure her attorney is just as well regarded and just as well remunerated as yours. There should be no question at all as to the quality of advice she got. This is important.
I was forced to pay alimony beyond my ex-wife’s re-marriage. The law in California and most states requires written waiver, by the supporting spouse. I certainly never agreed in writing but the law didn’t apply and my lack of agreement became my written agreement.
Don’t do it.
California is viciously against married men or men about to be married. Yet there is certainly no shortage of such foolish men happy enough to walk through the minefield otherwise known as “marriage.”
maybe this is part of the origins of arranged marriages? and problems are resolved by the families instead of the spouses.
Plus, in arranged marriages, decisions about who marries who are made by seasoned adults whose powers of reasoning is not swept away by transient emotions.
“decisions about who marries who are made by seasoned adults whose powers of reasoning is not swept away by transient emotions.”
I married my first when I was 22 and she was 21. My power of reasoning was swept away by the fact that she possessed all the qualities coveted by the superficial male. After 3 years she started to look, sound and spend like her mother. We were divorced after 5 years.
“and problems are resolved by the families instead of the spouses.”
Yeah, they just kill the woman so the man can have whatever he wants. You people are disgusting.
And it’s easy to boss around your eleven-year-old wife!
REAL men don’t need to boss around anyone because they have the respect and admiration of others, not through fear or force but thru wisdom and leadership.
Arranged marriages come with dowries..even today.
Ah, I see the divorce now. The court says that she and the kids get to stay in the house until the youngest turns 18 yrs. At that time the house is sold and the profits split. But six months after the divorce she moves an electrical engineer into the house and he reaps the rewards of your hard work. You get to pay $1000 per month per child, you have to keep medical on them, and you had to split all other assets 50-50 at the time of the divorce. What you had debt? The court spells out the debt that each is responsible for, but she doesn’t pay her’s and because you are on the debt too they can come after you–here the divorce court ruling doesn’t trump contract law. Great system.
PS: Be sure to have written in the divorce that should she remarry before the youngest turns 18 yrs that the property has to be bought out by either of you or sold at market value.
Hey man, go ahead and get married, its no big deal because if things don’t work out, you can always claim: “Im searching for the real killer”
Just sayin.
Avoid all future potential problems three simple non-legalese words of advice:
DON’T. GET. MARRIED.
Terrible, terrible mistake.
The real “contract” is between the people involved. Real marriage is in the mind of the participants. Getting the government involved in your personal life is just asking for major troubles. Be aware that people change over time, maybe you, maybe your bride to be. You’ll just be setting yourself up for an avoidable financial holocaust where only the lawyers truly emerge victorious.
Well, this has been very uplifting. I knew it was bad, I didn’t think it was this bad. I guess I’m just going to have to spend the money upfront to get all this sorted out before the wedding. I have no intention of divorce/split, but, frankly, I couldn’t sleep at night without having the prenup in place.
What a nightmare this system is; I can’t believe it’s so heavily slanted against the higher earning partner. It’s almost like tax law, the more you make, the more we sc**w you!
Overtaxed
Maybe you should be putting more emphasis on the real part of a marriage, two people who love, like, and enjoy each other, and have some overlapping visions and goals in life.
I married “up”, divorced him, and 10 years later remarried him. During the divorce, I pretty much left him the way I found him. $, a Jaguar Convertible, and his real property.If the money is more important than the relationship from the start, the question should be “is she the right one?”
Marriage isn’t an economic unit, it’s deeper than that.
My sister married a guy w/ a big Trust Acct. It’s been a living hell.
I apologize to you Awaiting, but Overtaxed should not have the woman’s perspective in an issue that could make him end up broken.
From a man’s point of view, his net worth is a measure of his financial acumen and/or his success at independence. The man typically slays the dragon and women who work in high level careers have little experience in the feeling of efficacy in a successful career. A man regards his wealth as his badge. So when he divorces, and it is typically a stranger by this time whom he divorces, he loses part of what symbolized his success.
I would agree with you if Overtaxed and his fiancé had the same incomes and net worth. Otherwise marriage is certainly a business, and the poorer of the couple stands to profit very well in that business upon divorce.
Bill:
You represent everything that’s wrong with American “men”. You believe that the husband should not “have” (i.e., “consider” or “understand” or “care about”) the woman’s point of view. That is a childish way to see things. If you can’t care about your woman, then you are not fit to be a husband and father.
The comments about women on this board are almost always dysfunctional and completely unacceptable in any society.
My wife is my best friend, my buddy, my partner, my financial adviser, my lover, my
companion.
I trust her completely. She backed me in my
business adventures, thick and thin. The many decades we’ve been together have enriched both our lives and have blessed both of us. Our family is number one, nothing else comes even close.
As we’ve both said many times, We both married up.
It saddens me to read some of the comments
posted on this blog.
I am just responding to your implication that Overtaxed should not worry about his inheritance. I say he should worry and I was only explaining why wealth has a deeper meaning for a man than for a woman. To rip half a man’s wealth away is to take a large part of his success away.
You’ve been very lucky Rancher. God bless you.
But in today’s society, the odds are against the rest of us.
I never married because I couldn’t find that “best friend, my buddy, my partner, my financial adviser, my lover, my
companion.”
I’ve seen more divorces than successful marriages. I’m sad to see our society this way as well. This is not a world for one person trying to make it on their own.
A good marriage takes work, lots of work, and if you stick with it, nothing in this life
is more enjoyable or satisfying.
To be able to share the rush and excitement
of rounding a curve in the road, seeing
a vista never seen before is priceless.
“To rip half a man’s wealth away is to take a large part of his success away.”
Wow! This says a lot about you. You might be better off not to have your self worth depend on your wealth. Life is too fickle.
My children have taught me not to have my self worth bound up in their success. I have concluded that I have done my best by them and they can own their choices and mistakes.
I have had almost 27 years with my husband and if we ever decided to split up, I would expect to support him. For me, that is just part of the commitment I made. At this point, I don’t expect that to happen. We have learned to resolve our conflicts. Neither of us are perfect, but we bring more to each other than any inheritance or material wealth.
Overtaxed, maybe you should reconsider marriage. Giving her a big party is not a good reason to get married.
“Overtaxed, maybe you should reconsider marriage. Giving her a big party is not a good reason to get married.”
+1.
Yeah, sorry to be so negative. A year ago I wouldn’t have presumed to even have commented on a personal matter such as this, but after watching every sibling, every friend, and very nearly every acquaintance either go through a divorce or continue suffering the fallout from a past divorce, I figured it was justified. The last straw was watching one of my sibs recently start the proceedings after 16 years of marriage even though I thought they were going to beat the odds: intelligent, successful, stable, 2 young children, etc etc. But no. I’m beginning to think it isn’t possible, definitely not probable. It’s like some grunt that stands up and charges a machinegun nest expecting to dance through the hail of bullets and come out unscathed. You really have to be courting your own destruction to do something like that. The odds say you are going to be torn to shreds. It just seems to be something about human nature as expressed in our modern American culture. I hope for your sake you go into this with your eyes wide open and not wind up torn to shreds in a muddy ditch blinking the blood out of your eyes and thinking… “what the hell just happened?”
I am in the same boat but wanting to sail in a different direction. I have a few millions and I am doing everything so all my money goes to my honey. I am doing this to prevent any of my family members contesting my will. I have a will along with a video will. I am also looking into establishing a trust and at some point in the near future into establishing an irrevocable trust leaving everything to her. Btw my wifey comes from money has higher education and she is smart gorgeous intelligent and has her own money. Imho money is not everything in life.
I guess it’s different strokes for different folks.
Good for you. FINALLY, an HBB male who actually loves his wife.
Comment by Big V
2011-04-16 09:42:03
Good for you. FINALLY, an HBB male who actually loves his wife.
Not necessarially, its just that they both got money. The real test of love is when ya’ll bofe broke like a muhfuggah.
Thats why if I was a surgeon, I would tell women “I work with my hands” as a way to weed out the gold diggers
” Not necessarially, its just that they both got money”
She was 19.5 years old when we met and I was a poor college student. For our first date we went jogging together around the high school track.
I got lucky and traded up in life
Not necessarially, its just that they both got money. The real test of love is when ya’ll bofe broke like a muhfuggah.
Thats why if I was a surgeon, I would tell women “I work with my hands” as a way to weed out the gold diggers
Based on your writing style I doubt if you could ever be a surgeon?
with a name like SOGay I doubt yo could ever be a real man.
Homophobic name-calling is a pretty weak debating style, spookwaffle.
“When poverty walks in the door, love flies out the window.”
For alot of 2banana’s male friends.
They would be dead or in jail by now if they did not get married. The married life put certain other things into perspective.
It is a minefield and lot of hard work. But some things are worth it.
and a lot of house cats…
Why would they be dead? They had a wild bachelor life? You don’t associate with never-married men much these days right? A good deal of modern single men are very health conscious and choose only long term relationships or no relationships at all -no one night stands. You can google to find that men’s health boost from marriage is disappearing. In fact, divorced men have far worse health than never-married men. The divorce takes a lot out of a man. I know of a colleague who went through the minefield twice. He had a stroke a couple of months ago. I heard he will survive the stroke, but his life is changed.
I live down the street from a lesbian couple. Although they can’t be legally married, for all intents and purposes, they are. And, from what I can see, they have a much more loving and stable relationship than a lot of straight couples.
Yup. That government certificate really is good for one thing these days: getting your government sanctioned spouse covered under your free enterprise health plan if they don’t have their own coverage. Just twisted as all get out.
I live down the street from two goats…
Yup, Az Slim
Some of nicest, wealthiest, and happily partnered people I know are in gay or lesbian “marriages”.
Keep renting your women and enjoy life.
Why am I not surprised to hear this sentiment from you?
Overtaxed:
You will be providing money to the household. Your wife will be providing life to the household. She deserves to be compensated for her work. Since you are already trying to make an enemy out of her through a prenup and a hard-hearted lawyer, I suggest you cancel the marriage. You are only going to create an awful mess for everyone when there are three kids and the woman decides she doesn’t like be treated like a slave.
Everyone else:
I am trying to have a nice weekend. I am now really PO’ed that I’ve been subejcted to yet another round of selfish, woman-hating, DISTURBING comments here on the housing bubble blog. This is not the “I’m a loser who can’t keep a woman” blog.
Big V,
“I am now really PO’ed that I’ve been subejcted to yet another round of selfish, woman-hating, DISTURBING comments here on the housing bubble blog.”
Please point out, in my original post (or my follow-ups) one point of “women hating” comments. I love my fiance, and want to make her very happy for the rest of our lives.
“Since you are already trying to make an enemy out of her through a prenup and a hard-hearted lawyer”
I’m not trying to make an enemy out of her. Remember a pre-nup is ONLY used if there’s a divorce! And then, sadly, my wife will be my enemy (or at least adversary) sitting across the courtroom. If she chooses to remain married, none of this will ever matter; a pre-nup only determines, when you’ve decided that you hate each other, what happens to the money. And who’s saying my lawyer is “hard-hearted”? He works for me, and I’m asking him to draw up documents that outline my wishes in the event of dissolution of marriage, that’s realistic, not having a “hard heart”. I guess people who write out wills are “fatalists” then? And people who buy health insurance are hypochondriacs?
“You will be providing money to the household. Your wife will be providing life to the household. She deserves to be compensated for her work.”
And she is compensated for her work. She has a great house and a great life to look forward to. I just want to make sure that life is with me. If she leaves me, she’s no longer “providing life to the household”, she’s just sucking money out of what used to be the household. Also, I find your view on this very “1940s”, what if I was the one with the lower income? Would this still be a “women hating” thread if she asked me to sign a pre-nup? Would I “provide life to the household” somehow by making less money? Also, what if we both work and share household duties (as it actually the case, but somewhat besides the point), why does she provide anymore “life to the household” than I do? Her household contributions are somehow more valuable than mine?
No, this isn’t the “I’m a loser who can’t keep a women” blog, and I never intended my comments to come off like that. I was asking a financial question on a blog that deals with financial matters in the thread that’s designed for “off topic” conversations. Every single thing that I said in my post could apply to both men or women, it’s simply shocking how the “less wealthy” partner is treated in a divorce, even with a solid pre-nup going in.
I intend to spend the rest of my life with my fiance, and to leave everything I own to her in the event of my death proceeding hers. However, intentions are one thing, reality is another. I never intend to go out and get in a car accident but I still carry insurance on my car; does that make me “selfish” that I don’t want to expose myself to unlimited risk?
Wow…Some pretty interesting perspectives here on marriage…
Here is my summation on my marriage;
I would rather be with her than without her…I hope/believe she feels the same way…
Don’t worry about it Overtaxed. I can hear a big ol’ axe grinding away somewheres…
She will provide more life because she will be bearing and raising children. You won’t. Not a difficult concept. That is a biological fact that did not disappear with the 1940s.
The marriage won’t last because you want to make sure she doesn’t have a fair share of control. You will have all the control because you will have all the money. You think this will prevent her from leaving you, but it won’t. The only thing that will prevent her from leaving you is treating her well.
You have to choose between keeping your money and having a family. The woman who provides the family for you will need to be paid, EVEN IF YOU GET A DIVORCE. The kids and her responsibilities/past sacrifices don’t go away when the relationship breaks down.
V,
Children are out of the question for us.
I don’t understand what you mean when you say “You will have all the control because you will have all the money”. The only time that would be the case is in divorce, not during the marriage. We actually have co-mingled all our funds for several years, while I handle the financial responsibilities she has full access to all our accounts.
You seem to miss the point that none of the provisions of a pre-nup come about unless there’s a divorce and that this agreement somehow controls the entire nature of the marriage. A joint account is still a joint account, even if you have a pre-nup in place.
I don’t hope that this will keep her from leaving me. I hope it would keep her (God forbid the situation occurs) from leaving me and taking 1/2 of my money, inheritance and some alimony on top of that to boot. She does want to marry me, so I assume that I’m treating her pretty well right now.
You need to remember that the pre-nup isn’t a device to control the marriage, it ONLY comes into play at the END of the marriage. Yes, I know, people write all kinds of stupid crap in their pre-nups (if you gain 5 lbs you are out the door). This is simply (and much more common) a pre-nup that outlines the financial breakup of assets at the end of marriage.
There’s nothing to stop her (in fact, I’d be all for it) from making as much/more than I do. It’s actually not even all that unlikely, she works for a start-up company, should they hit it big she could come into big, big money. I don’t understand why you have the view that “I’ll have all the money”. We share the money as long as we’re married, if we get divorced, that’s a different story.
I stand by my statement, you’re still looking at this as if it’s the 1940s.
Well, you didnt’ mention that you don’t want kids. In that case, who cares?
V,
I’m sorry, “who care’s” about what? I care very much about my relationship, my finances, and my inheritance, with or without kids.
Since she isn’t having your kids, she doesn’t need you to provide for her financially.
V,
That’s not how the law sees it. There’s child support and alimony, 2 entirely separate things. You can’t write child support into a pre-nup at all (which makes sense); this entire conversation has been about alimony, which is money given to the less well off partner in a marriage to “get back on their feet” after leaving the marriage. That’s what I’m trying to avoid.
You have to be a housewife to get alimony.
I think your lawyer is exagerating (sp?) to scare you, so you will pay him a lot of money. A short period of unemployment doesn’t qualify anyone for alimony. It has to be a familial arrangement. In CA, you have to be married for five years before alimony applies when there are no kids.
I agree, though it matters what state you’re in. Here, alimony or maintenance is awarded to a spouse who has seriously been out of the workforce for a long time due to the marriage and so is disadvantaged in the job market. Even then, it’s usually limited to 5 years, wherein the ex is supposed to get training to get into the workforce again.
Division of property is another matter.
Hey now V, you gotsta chill out. I love women, thats why I have several.
I mean come on, at least we are still attracted to ya’ll; its not like we gone homo or somethin…
Overtaxed:
It strikes me that it might be time for you to step back and relax. From your comments it seems as if you are not ready to get married. Particularly troublesome is your line about being worried that your wife can quit work and essentially take you to the proverbial cleaners. This means 1) you don’t really know your fiancee and 2) you don’t trust her. Those are very good reasons not to get married. I think that your money might be better spent not on attorneys at this stage but a good couples counselor. Worrisome in general is your low expectation of marriage. There’s significant literature in the social psych world that indicates one’s expectations of an experience are highly predictive of how it will present itself. (Yes, there are also people who are delusional, and their problems are also worrying).
As to the comments above regarding a woman’s worth, I find these slightly disturbing. For those of you who devalue child-rearing, give it a try yourself. It’s not easy and it is not respected (as your comments have so aptly demonstrated).
Overtaxed, I wish you well.
Lionel,
I believe in the “law of rational self-interest”. If my wife decides she’s going to leave the relationship and knows that by taking a “break” from work she can get a much larger alimony settlement she would be a fool (in my view of the world) not to do so.
I know her very well, and I trust her. Do you think that everyone who has a pre-nup doesn’t know their wife or doesn’t trust them? It has nothing to do with how I feel today, or me having “2nd thoughts”, it’s just a financial tool (again, look at my insurance analogy) to protect yourself should the unthinkable happen.
I do have a low expectation of marriage. I’m an atheist and have no interest in the “eyes of God” blessing my relationship. It’s a big dollar cost, a PITA legally, and an absolute incredible amount of stress on my fiance to plan. So far, I wouldn’t wish this on my worst enemy. We’ve lived “as if we’re married” for many years now, so I’m not really looking for anything after the wedding except the “status quo” (for our relationship) with plenty of money liberated from our bank accounts and plenty of stress/family fights/etc for my fiance. Also, because we’re both making significant incomes, we’re going to pay a few 1000 bucks more in taxes per year for the “right” to be married. All in all, it’s not something that I’m looking forward to. But that doesn’t mean that I’m not excited for my fiance and want to give her the best wedding that I can; it’s just not for me and not something that I really care about.
What exactly is the rational self interest justification for marriage in the first place? That seem to be a taboo topic… I wonder why?
I don’t think it’s taboo; there are a lot of “rational” selfish reasons to want to get married. Companionship, friendship, a long lasting close relationship with another person, stability to raise children, making your relationship publicly known, taxes (for some people)… Lots of things that would make a rational person select marriage as a good option. However, most of them can be achieved without marriage, so, in a more “strict” view, it probably wouldn’t look at any of those as very good reasons to get married.
The simple fact is, people want to get married, there’s got to be some “rational” justification for it, even if it’s lost in the majority of marriages (or people get married because they don’t understand that you can gain the benefits without it).
Sounds like you just listed all the reasons why “official” marriage really isn’t all that rational anymore from a personal standpoint, except for those few situations to gain an advantage on health care or income tax (which are both probably just legacy social engineering). These days I think the PTB have pretty much given up on this country as their main playground so you only see those few half hearted enticements for institutions promoting social stability, as marriage was in the past Not anymore. For the individual, you would be delibrately stepping into a situation that will (statistically) result in a massively stressful and expensive conflagration. That isn’t a romantic view, but the facts support it. Everybody is entitled to be a hero though, if that’s what they really want to do. Good luck, Overtaxed. Maybe you’ll dance between the bullets.
I know of an attractive woman who lived with a wealthy guy for many years. The relationship broke up, she has few salable skills and no money, and moved back in with her parents and went on welfare.
She’s older now and the bloom is off the rose. Had she managed to “close the deal” - get married, a) they may still be together and b) if the relationship still broke up, she’d be much better off.
From a simple utilitarian perspective, marriage can be a good deal for a lower-earning / lower-skilled partner.
It seems to me like a pre-nup is a good idea, but you are suspicious of your fiance’s motives post-marriage. I’d be curious about why she wants to get married at all if she doesn’t think the marriage will improve her standard of living.
If she is still able, she may want children. Most women do. Even the ones who say they don’t initially. Also, she may want to improve her standard of living in the manner you described.
It’s a bit like chess. To me, a pre-nup sounds like wearing a seat belt or like fire insurance. Having a serious accident or a fire is never intended. But if the situation occurs - and it’s not uncommon (breakups) - then for you it would be a good deal.
Thought: you may wish to put in some concessions in the pre-nup so that you incur some costs in the breakup, so she can be assured that you don’t want to create a supposedly binding relationship that is seamless and easy for you to leave. If she balks at the pre-nup, that might be why. Especially if kids are on her mind. She wants a binding relationship.
She wants to get married for a reason. Trying to understand that reason will help you understand how to proceed. It sounds like you will get no benefit from the marriage, i.e. the current situation is optimal for you.
Understanding why she wants to get married will help you choose your next steps. Understanding why you want to get married, or at least are willing to get married, will also be useful.
Exactamundo. I really didn’t have the heart to spell it out for him I guess. The young really are entitled to their folly, but they should at least not be ignorant of the consequences or the probability of same.
“I’d be curious about why she wants to get married at all if she doesn’t think the marriage will improve her standard of living.”
It certainly will not improve her standard of living, we’ve been together for a long time and enjoying our combined income together for most of that time; she’s “used to” what we can do together.
Her reasons are really “so her parents can see her get married”, because she feels “left out” of getting married (neither of us has been married before), for religious reasons (her parents are extremely religious, like, off the deep end (IMHO), but it’s very important to them). It’s kind of irrational, but; frankly it’s one of those things; it’s like a force of nature that I can’t fight; she want’s it because she wants it. By the time we’re married we will have been together for about 10 years, so I feel a kind of obligation to do this for her, but, at the same time, I’m not looking to commit financial suicide by doing so!
As you mention, the current situation is pretty optimal for me. I have a committed/loving relationship and none of these legal headaches that come from marriage. We also save quite a bit on taxes, and we can play some games with certain tax credits/bennies that I can’t qualify for but she can. It’s probably saved us (over the past ~10 years) 30-40K by not being married (8K was the Obama credit for buying a house, I don’t qualify, but she did).
“To me, a pre-nup sounds like wearing a seat belt or like fire insurance. Having a serious accident or a fire is never intended.”
This is exactly how I’m looking at it. Of course I don’t want to get divorced, if I did, I’d just leave now! Just like I don’t want to wrap my car around a tree. Doesn’t mean that I don’t want to carry insurance though!
“Everybody is entitled to be a hero though, if that’s what they really want to do. ”
LOL! I’m hoping to be a hero, and planning not be a martyr!
“I’d be curious about why she wants to get married at all if she doesn’t think the marriage will improve her standard of living.”
Is that what marriage is all about? I must have missed the memo.
Big V, perhaps it’s time to step away from the computer and enjoy your weekend.
I’m not usually here on weekends but I am at work today, so it wouldn’t feel right to not check in on the HBB. Don’t let the cynics (and misogynists) get you down.
I agree. The farmer’s market is closed, bummed.
Years ago, my sister’s fiance asked her to sign a prenuptial agreement at the urging of his mother (his family is massively wealthy). She steadfastly refused, and told him that if it was a deal-breaker he could go find another wife. He sheepishly backed down, and they’ve been married over 20 years.
Overtaxed, What are your ages? How long have you known each other? If there is not a chance of children defer the marriage or don’t get married at all. Women tend to want the marriage more than men. Think of the analogy of a buyer and seller. Buyers (men) generally have the leverage not to close the deal. Also you mentioned your fiancee wants the wedding of her dreams. Sometimes it seems women want a wedding more than the marriage. Suggest to your fiancee that the two of you go off for a quiet ceremony. She whether she still wants to get married. Also probably too late but it’s best not to let people know how much money you have. (Though if there is a lot or a lot family money concealing its existstance can be hard.) It might be hard to protect assets you have now and your income. But inheritances can be doled out over decades after the marriage has a track record. One poster mentioned a video will. Ask financee to make a video pre-nup. Also you make one too in case she hit$ it big. It also sounds more like a general fear of loosing wealth / security than fear of your financee or marriage. The more money some people get the more anxiety they get about being without it. If you lost all or your money tomorrow what would your life be? Relatives who had to flee Europe because of the wars found themselves in such a position. They learned very well how security is very illusional. And what is really important in life. Good luck to you, hope you figure out a solution that works well for you.
I’m 34 and she’s 31. We’ve been together for about 8 years now (living together almost the whole time) and, by the time of the wedding, it will be almost 10 years (wow, time flies).
She ABSOLUTELY want’s the “wedding more than the marriage”. For all intents, we’ve been married for the better part of a decade. We’ve lived together, commingled our finances, and really made our adult lives together. The marriage is just a formality at this point, but it does have some significant legal implications that I don’t have to concern myself with at this time. She has little/no interest in a quiet ceremony (I’ve tried) this is “for her parents/family”, that’s her primary reason for going through with the “big/traditional wedding”. It’s also both of our first marriages, so, although we’re quite a bit older than normal, I feel compelled to give her a “real wedding”. She’s been very good to me and I think she deserves to have this if it’s what she really wants. Doesn’t mean I deserve to live the rest of my life with a noose around my neck though; I basically want a pre-nup that reduces our “married” status around financial matters to only apply IF we are married (and not thereafter).
“It also sounds more like a general fear of loosing wealth / security than fear of your financee or marriage. The more money some people get the more anxiety they get about being without it.”
That’s exactly it. I’ve lived a very tightly controlled financial life for a long time now, and a divorce/alimony can just unravel it all in a heartbeat, and there’s nothing you can do to once it starts. It’s a financial hit that most people will never really fully recover from. Add in “good timing” for a divorce (right I receive inheritance) and it could be a truly heartstopping amount (for a normal person, again, these are all rounding errors to the “real wealthy”).
Overtaxed, In many places does n’t living together seven years create a common law marriage? Your status now could be different than you think.
In Australia if you live together for two years, it’s just like marriage and the money drain from the wealthier to the less wealthy of the couple applies.
Realtors Are Liars
g’morning, Exeter.
Good Morning.
~Realtors Are Liars
Politicians and car salesmen are honest, and voters and gubmint worshipers are smart!
This is a housing blog. Champion your anti-everything causes elsewhere.
~Realtors Are Liars
Really? Then please stick to the script!
This is a housing blog ??
Okay, here ya go….
Touring a few housing tracts waiting for Best Buy to open here in Las Vegas…Realtor signs as we all would expect and all the other obvious signs of distress..Weed filled front yards, all window shades drawn, no vehicles, much differed house maintenance…I would say there were at least three houses with obvious distress for every house with a Realtor sign…Maybe more…
Yes and the script is housing. Try mmkkay?
Does realtor sign resemble coyote sign?
You guys/girls/children try to add something to the dialog or just keep quiet…You are painfully annoying sometimes…
Gubmint bank is one giant red flag, but who cares? Nothing will come of it, they permanently attached to the gubmint tit.
~ Red Flags Popping Up All Over Bank of America
By: John Carney Senior Editor, CNBC.com
Bank of America [BAC 12.82 -0.31 (-2.36%) ] shares gave up more than 2 percent Friday on disappointing earnings. But a bad quarter may be the least of the bank’s worries.
The largest bank by deposits just lost its chief financial officer and just hired one of the most connected regulatory lawyers in the U.S.
Both events are alarming.
The bank says that Charles Noski requested to step aside due to family illness. There’s no doubt some truth in this: a family member is ill, and Noski probably volunteered his resignation. But it comes on the back of some very troubling developments:
* Earlier this month we learned that Bank of America’s announcement that the government had denied its insane request to raise its dividend had not been reviewed by Noski before it was made public. No one has offered a credible explanation for this lapse in internal controls.
* Bank of America recently announced that it was going to start charging some 5 percent of its credit card customers a brand new $59 annual fee. This is a breathtakingly obvious attempt to drive $180 million in profits through a loophole in Dodd-Frank—which prohibited interest rate increases unless customers were seriously delinquent, but left open the possibility of random fee hikes.
* Bank of America has been estimating for three quarters that it is more than two-thirds through the wave of repurchase requests on soured home loans, and that the total losses will not amount to more than $10 billion. This quarter it provided for just $1 billion in mortgage repurchase and litigation expenses—compared with $2.2 billion for JP Morgan Chase in the first quarter. Does anyone believe that the bank with exposure to Countrywide’s loans is better off than JP Morgan?
I am a true Bofa winner. 108/yr checking fees(used to be free), 59/yr visa (used to be free) 79/yr AX (used to be free)
But; Wife’s 300,000 loan from Countrywide (used to cost 2000/month…now it’s free!)
In our county, around 2,000 properties are on the market. There are 530 properties with sour loans by bofa; these were supposed to be auctioned this spring but some red tape has caused them to lay fallow until this fall. Point is that one lender alone could provide 25% of a healthy amount of inventory if it got going on getting these loans off their books and foreclosing in earnest ( however I assume some of these may be listed for distressed sales.)
Regardless some impressive shadow inventory should keep prices from rising until after the foreclosure python processes all these delinquent loans.
Course my friend stopped paying two months ago; so the snake is not done eating yet!
“* Bank of America has been estimating for three quarters that it is more than two-thirds through the wave of repurchase requests on soured home loans, and that the total losses will not amount to more than $10 billion.”
BofA CEO: Owners shouldn’t look at home as an asset
Housing rebound may take so long that homeowners should seek other long-term investments
By Joe Rauch
Reuters
updated 4/12/2011
CHARLOTTE, N.C. — Homeowners may need to look elsewhere for long-term investment returns as housing prices in some areas may not rebound long-term, Bank of America Corp Chief Executive Officer Brian Moynihan said on Tuesday.
“It’s sobering to think, but some people shouldn’t be thinking of (their home) as an asset,” Moynihan said at the 2011 National Association of Attorneys General conference. “They should be thinking of it as a great place to live.”
Moynihan said during his prepared remarks that he had spoken with the attorneys general about industry issues, but declined to comment further about the discussions.
One of the happiest days of my financial life was the day I closed my BofA account and put that money into a credit union. Neener-neener, BofA.
Couldn’t happen to a more deserving company.
Nice to see some poetic justice.
(Background: during the tech boom collapse, BofA was responsible for completely dismantling its American IT operations and moving it all to India, eliminating thousands of jobs. Jobs that could have… paid the mortgage)
Foreclosure leaves North Palm couple’s belongings on street for thieves
By Bill DiPaolo Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Posted: 2:53 p.m. Friday, April 15, 2011
NORTH PALM BEACH — Code enforcement officials responded Friday to protect furniture and other personal items that eviction officials placed in the driveway of a Lighthouse Drive home.
“People were like buzzards around fresh meat. At one point, there must have been a dozen cars. People were grabbing and taking everything,” said Chuck Huff, the village community development director.
People illegally sifted through mattresses, desks, lamp shades, dishes, books, golfing equipment and dozens of other items. Property piled on a person’s driveway is not open to the public without the owner’s permission, Huff said.
“It’s sad. My wife’s bowling trophies are somewhere in there. We’re a very sentimental family,” said Christopher James, the former owner of the home that was foreclosed on earlier this year.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/foreclosure-leaves-north-palm-couples-belongings-on-street-1403994.html - -
Yeah…. because those trophies are so damn valuable.
Let go or be dragged.
The couple moved to Perry, in North Florida. They kept their Lighthouse Drive home. They opened another Christmas store in Perry.
Hard to figure out what happened.
They move to Perry but yet keep all their stuff in a house in North Palm. They don’t make any payments and know an eviction is going to happen eventually. Then they are surprised when it happens?
Story says nothing on how long they have had the house rent free, when they received a NOD, if they took out any equity, etc.
A Christmas Store? In Florida? Would have had better luck with a Pirate store or Candle shop.
abolish the Fed!
Testify, brothah!
and replace it with what?
What’d we have before the Fed? Phuckthefed.
How about $$Dollars US? That’s what the Treasury is for and we wouldn’t be paying interest on every stinking one printed or minted.
So you’d prefer politicians to be in charge of monetary policy?
+ one zillion!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1377419/Bruce-Willis-sells-New-York-apartment-250k-loss.html
Bruce Willis has sold his New York apartment at a loss of more than a quarter of a million dollars. Willis bought the beautiful 20th-floor 3BR in one of Donald Trump’s luxury high-rises for $4.26 million in 2007. Now it seems he is so eager to get rid of it that he has accepted an offer, still going through contract, of just $3.95 million, a significant loss.
A significant loss ( I detect sarcasm)? A quarter of a million off of $4.25 million is less than ten percent. Maybe six percent. My own loss was 20% in the 1990s RE bust. I’d expect Mr. Willis has perhaps $30 million tucked away in other investments to absorb such a loss.
I would never put more than 1/6 of my net worth into real estate. I would hope Mr. Willis is smart enough or has smart enough accountants to advise him to diversify as well.
I would never put more than 1/6 of my net worth into real estate ??
Easy to say in hindsight…I am sure many feel that way about the stock market now because of the meltdown…
Real Estate as a investment, can be wonderfully rewarding although this financial meltdown that we have had has turned it on its head in many markets…
Real estate investing with the stars: How to turn a large fortune into a small fortune…
Willis a house conservatively valued at $15mm on Parrot Cay in the Turks & Caicos…
Bruce is also taking a bath on his Hailey, ID property.
For him, it’s just a tax write-off.
Quick check of r e a l t o r . c o m:
Gaithersburg MD, about 20 miles from the Washington monument. Long trafficy drive if you work in the city. If you work in the outer burbs — not too bad.
Under $100K range:
A bunch of 2-bed 1970’s conversion condos.
$100 - $175K range:
Not many condos in this range. Condos are either run-down conversions, or bubble-amenity yuppity condos. I’m not surprised. The conversion condos were built to be apartments, and the yuppity condos were built to be profit vehicles. In other words, as I guessed, nobody wants to build or to buy a condo for the sheer condoness. (at least not in the burbs.)
Some run-down rowhomes.
The occasional “handyman special” disaster SFH which needs $100K of work.
$210- 225K range:
Newer 2-bed bubble condos.
Nicer end-unit townhomes.
A couple small 1970’s starter SFH, but I don’t know the neighborhoods.
Newer 2-bed condos.
$240K - $250K range:
More townhomes.
Middle-class looking raised ranches on 0.2 acre — the type that were built by the millions in the 70’s and 80’s.
$270K range:
Lots of ultra luxury condos
Nicer bigger rowhomes (4 bed? I don’t know how you fit that in the floor plan?)
$310-325K range:
Still a couple hoity-toity condos at wishing prices.
Vast majority are still townhomes.
Starting to see more SFH. Little ramblers, small lots, wishing prices here.
$325K to $350K range:
No more condos, mainly because it’s 5 miles from the end of the Red Line.
Some hoity-toity row homes.
Now we’re getting into the better 3-4 bed SFH. by better, I mean better condition. They are still “regular” houses.
$350K to $500K range:
Many fewer homes altogether — 79 SFH, 38 rowhouse.
$425K: Restored Bungalow (read, small for the price)
$440K range: Still the same old-same old regular tract raised ranch or split level houses, but gussied up with a nice garage or larger lot or a flipper kitchen.
$450K range: I spot the first smaller McMansion, late 80’s vintage.
$500K range: Late 90’s vintage McMansions.
I didn’t see a single bubble McMansion under $500K except for bubble McTownhomes.
————
So what does this say for the DC pricing prospects? I would say that the $75K is priced well but they all need work. At $210 you’re starting to see ok townhomes but I think they are still 15% overpriced. Tract SFH are the most valued, but still overpriced by about $50K except for the occasional rare find (bleeding shadow inventory?) Anything built in the past 10 years is still at wishing prices. Let’s see if falling leaves brings falling prices.
Yes, the cheaper houses got into the fray first, so those are the ones that will bottom out sooner.
Don’t you think it’s weird that a nice SFH costs more than 5x an older condo? It should be more like 3x. The upper end has a lot farther to fall than the lower end. Ask yourself what the rents would be on those places. How much you wanna bet the rent:buy ratio on the condo is way higher than on the upper-end house?
Try not to catch yerself a falling knife…
Reuters Breakingviews
Five years from U.S. housing peak, still no bottom
Apr 15, 2011 15:12 EDT
By Martin Hutchinson
The author is a Reuters Breakingviews columnist. The opinions expressed are his own.
WASHINGTON — Five years on from their peak, there’s still no bottom in sight for America’s house prices. After rising from a trough in 2009, prices are falling again and market activity is very thin. It’s another complexity for monetary policymakers with an eye on inflation: hiking interest rates could further squash housing.
The housing bubble that inflated in the run-up to 2006 owed much to the Federal Reserve’s policy. During and after the 2001 recession, the Fed under Chairman Alan Greenspan held interest rates very low, and well below inflation. That coincided with a political environment and tax benefits — like the mortgage interest deduction — that encouraged home ownership, and was capped by financial technology that allowed mortgages to be repackaged and resold so that the original lenders retained no risk.
Yet thanks to low interest rates, the National Association of Realtors’ affordability index remained above its long-term average even as the ratio of the typical house price to income soared to unprecedented levels above five times, compared with a long-term average around three times.
Helped by a dose of bubble-induced fraud that stretched some mortgage borrowers even further, lower-quality subprime borrowers began getting into difficulty even as house prices were peaking. That was the beginning of the collapse that eventually swept through the mortgage securitization market and put the banking system in difficulty, causing a financial crunch and a sharp economic downturn.
The average house price tumbled 32 percent in the three years after the 2006 peak, by the seasonally adjusted S&P/Case-Shiller 20-city index. Initially, prices then rebounded remarkably quickly, turning up in June 2009 — around the time the recession bottomed and well before the peak in unemployment — and climbing 5 percent in the following 12 months.
But that turns out to have been a false dawn. Even cheaper money, extra tax incentives and higher loan limits at the now government-owned Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and at the Federal Housing Administration helped produce the rebound, but it fizzled out in the months after the tax breaks were withdrawn in April 2010.
A renewed house price decline has set in, with the January reading of the Case-Shiller index 4 percent down from its mini-peak seven months earlier — although the index remains just above the post-crisis trough level.
Meanwhile, U.S. new home sales in February fell 28 percent from the previous year to a record low pace. The inventory of new homes rose to 8.9 months’ sales, although this is an improvement on the 12 months’ worth of stock two years ago. Existing home sales also declined slightly in February from a year earlier.
U.S. employment trends have turned positive in recent months, which will help prices. So will mild inflation, which increases housing affordability. But there are factors that point to a significant further decline. First, interest rates remain artificially low, and with inflation beginning to accelerate, they are declining in real terms. This has brought the NAR’s affordability index to an all-time peak of 192.3 in February. That suggests even the current level of house prices may be flattered by low mortgage costs.
Second, the already high level of reported housing inventories may not tell the whole story. Homes going through the foreclosure process and those that cannot currently be sold because the owners are underwater on their mortgages represent an additional, invisible overhang.
Looked at against history, American house prices are still well over 30 percent above the cyclical low in September 1993 in real terms, adjusting the long-running Case-Shiller 10-city index for inflation. On a more thorough analysis, economist Gary Shilling believes house prices have a further 20 percent to fall. That may be too pessimistic, but prices surely face headwinds from the foreclosure pipeline and high levels of inventories.
…
I heard from my buddy yesterday who said that the loan limits for conventional loans will be reduced come summer. From $417,000 to $370,000. Nice ten percent cut. Watch prices in that category to plummet correspondingly.
That’s quite a source- lfc’s buddy said it so it must be true.
It’s unnerving that the mainstream media is now treating the real estate market as if it were national and not local.
There was a time when every house in the nation was overpriced. It was then that everyone in the MSM was insisting that all real estate is local. Nowadays, there are some places where real estate is cheap in comparison to rents and incomes. So why now does the MSM keep tacitly implying that the real estate market is national?
I realize these people are journalists and not economists, but there are plenty of economists, etc (such as Ben Jones) who could explain it to them if they were willing to listen.
The housing bubble that inflated in the run-up to 2006 owed much to the Federal Reserve’s policy. During and after the 2001 recession, the Fed under Chairman Alan Greenspan held interest rates very low, and well below inflation. That coincided with a political environment and tax benefits — like the mortgage interest deduction — that encouraged home ownership, and was capped by financial technology that allowed mortgages to be repackaged and resold so that the original lenders retained no risk.
Yet thanks to low interest rates, the National Association of Realtors’ affordability index remained above its long-term average even as the ratio of the typical house price to income soared to unprecedented levels above five times, compared with a long-term average around three times.
It all seems so obvious now. However, back when it was happening, it seemed to be, well, hidden from view. Except on outposts like this-here HBB. Been here for almost five years, and this party is still a blast.
Thanks for keeping HBB going, Ben!
Do the Defenders of the Mortgage Interest Deduction ever acknowledge that it amounts to Welfare for the Wealthy, with the lion’s share of the tax reduction benefits accruing to the top 1%-ers who could afford to pay cash outright for their homes but don’t, in order instead to take welfare payments from Uncle Sam?
April 12, 2011, 3:15 PM ET
Budget Deal: Could the Mortgage Deduction Get Chopped?
By Shira Ovide
As the U.S. government looks under every rock for spending cuts, here’s an intriguing thought: What happens if Washington takes this opportunity to take down the tax break on mortgage interest?
“We believe there is a growing risk that the mortgage interest deduction could fall victim to the deficit reduction mantra,” MF Global said in a research note.
Deal Journal has this reaction: Yeah, right.
We know fiscal asceticism is the new black, but Congress doesn’t have the guts to take on the popular mortgage tax break, which defenders say makes the cost of homes within reach for Americans. The real-estate and mortgage industries also would fight tooth or nail if the deduction moves to the chopping block.
…
I don’t know if I personally would call the MID ‘regressive,’ so much as WELFARE FOR THE WEALTHY.
My version has a better ring to it, no?
April 6, 2011, 1:28 PM ET
IMF Calls Mortgage Interest Deduction ‘Regressive’
By Alan Zibel and Ian Talley
The U.S. should consider capping or cutting the popular tax deduction for mortgage interest as it prepares to debate what should replace mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the International Monetary Fund said Wednesday.
The IMF, in an analysis of housing finance systems around the world, said an Obama administration paper released earlier this year makes progress toward needed changes in the U.S. mortgage system. But the report criticized the U.S. for not tackling the popular tax deduction for mortgage interest, which the report termed “expensive and regressive.”
The U.S. government’s support of the housing market “has been pervasive but has not yielded many of the expected benefits to prospective or existing homeowners,” the report said. “It is clear that an overhaul is needed.”
“As a first step, we would very much recommend that the U.S. would at least cap the mortgage interest deductability,” said Ann-Margret Westin, an IMF senior economist and one of the authors of the housing report. She approved of the recommendation by the U.S. fiscal commission to halve the mortgage limit for deductions and to let it apply only to private residences, but the IMF said any such move would have to be undertaken over time.
The report is one chapter of the IMF’s larger annual Global Financial Stability Report that will be published in full next week.
…
Championing the MID is akin to saying *I paid a grossly inflated price for my house*.
Idiots
Who is the International Monetary Fund anyway? I agree with what their saying RE the MID, but I am sensitive to “international” organizations that attempt to surpercede elected governments. We the people didn’t vote for the IMF, did we? If not, then why do they feel entitled to tell us what to do? It’s weird.
+ a bunch Big V.
The IMF and all the other financier fronts can go take a flying leap.
This is to be expected. It helps if you realize the entire Congressional effort to take the Wall Street fraud perpetrators to task amounts to nothing but a Grand Kabuki Dance to entertain the sheeple.
The Roundup for April 15, 2011 »
Levin Report Postscript: Wall Street and Its Regulators Basically the Same Post-Crisis
By: David Dayen Friday April 15, 2011 2:01 pm
Yesterday, Carl Levin introduced his long and relatively effective report on the financial crisis. It focused on four major aspects: mortgage fraud, weak and deferential regulation, the credit rating agencies and investment bank malpractice with mortgage bonds.
Levin said that he referred some issues to the Justice Department for potential prosecution. But we can actually judge how these issues have been dealt with to this point. As Gretchen Morgensen and Louise Story laid out yesterday, the FBI scaled back its mortgage fraud investigations in 2008, even after highlighting the practice in a report as far back as 2005. On the regulation front, we’re eventually getting rid of the OTS, which was highlighted in the report. But their role in the heinous consent decree on foreclosure fraud shows that they remain the model for bank-friendly regulation at the federal level.
…
Overtaxed has already provided the answer to his (?) dilemma and that is not to marry. If he has assets and she doesn’t, when the marriage dissolves (which is likely these days), she will want and get some of those assets. Prenups are sticky anyway since if you put in all the clauses with real teeth the other party will feel affronted and you’ll be having the first of many big fights.
I’m an older person involved in business and the marriage which produced my children ended 17 years ago. I’ve had several relationships since then with other women, but have rebuffed all advances about marriage because I only want to keep company, not have my assets and my childrens’ inheritance basis compromised. Marriage for the specific mutual goal of raising children is the only valid reason for doing it and if Overtaxed is not doing it for that reason, then why give it any further thought…
Good point. You and Fisher have made excellant points. Marriage is good for those who want to produce children. After the “chillun” are gone from the nest, time to split, but that split is expensive. So even for those who reproduce, they have to marry someone they really love.
And Fisher’s point reads right out of Harry Browne’s book. People are more individualistic these days than ever. Including women. People change their values far more often and radically than our parents generation. So the spouse you get now may be a complete stranger to you in fifteen years.
Yet it’s “normal” to pair up and have kids. I have no trouble with that. It’s the meme I have trouble with, that you absolutely must be married to have kids. A friend of mine cohabitated with a woman for seven years and they had kids - they ended up getting married, but not before having kids.
I’m still the “odd man out” at work. Most of the male engineers are married. There are probably a number of the older ones who are divorced. But these guys still accept the meme about marriage.
There is no need for marriage.
Bill:
I realize that you are blocking my comments through the Joshua Tree Extension, but I will say this again to you anyway. NO WOMAN IN HER RIGHT MIND IS GOING TO SACRAFICE HER LIFE FOR YOU AND YOUR KIDS IN EXCHANGE FOR NOTHING. You have been holding out for this self-loathing woman your entire life. It’s not gonna happen. Why not just shell out the dough and stop being such a hardask? Get yourself a nice, age-appropriate wife (if it’s not too late), have a couple kids, be nice to them all, and everything will work out just fine.
Sometimes you just gotta play it straight, mister.
NO WOMAN IN HER RIGHT MIND IS GOING TO SACRAFICE HER LIFE FOR YOU AND YOUR KIDS IN EXCHANGE FOR NOTHING.
Yet so many do, attaching themselves to jerks who cheat on them. Of course you could argue that they aren’t in their “right mind”, but there sure seem to be plenty of them, willing to play house and sexually service unfaithful jerks, while the nice guys end up with gals who take them to the cleaners in divorce court (often dumping them for a jerk).
Get yourself a nice, age-appropriate wife (if it’s not too late), have a couple kids, be nice to them all, and everything will work out just fine.
Maybe.
I often don’t see eye to eye with Bill, but he has a point. Marriage has become a risky business for “nice” men. If you’re going to hitch your wagon to a woman, you’d better be 100% certain that you can trust her in the long haul.
To Big V
I would not want anyone to sacrifice their life for me. I am no socialist! Geez.
I just think the concept of getting the State as the third partner in a relationship is only for the lovers of government, and we have a few on the HBB. I could not ever understand how a woman thinks that by getting Uncle Sam involved in her relationship, somehow it’s wholesome and not dirty. This was the final thing between my girlfriend and I. She wanted marriage and I did not. Why spoil a good thing by bringing government into our relationship?
To Colorado - I have a hard time trusting even men these days, so it would be tougher to trust a woman without a background check including her siblings and parents. I will let the government do the background checks for me if somehow my brain signals short circuit and I decide I gotta marry.
Yeah, Bill, because women are more dangerous than men. Geez Louise. You should have married your GF so she could stay in the country. You obviously didn’t care about her at all. This conversation is depressing.
“I have a hard time trusting even men these days, so it would be tougher to trust a woman without a background check including her siblings and parents.”
You live in a bizarro world. If you don’t trust someone, I don’t understand why a background check would help. You eliminate those who have a questionable history, but that doesn’t necessarily predict their future actions. And some people with questionable histories have learned from their mistakes.
Big V, I suspect Bill feels he understands men better than women. So it is easier for him to trust them.
I understand that people of both sexes today want to cheat others. 95% of them.
And a background check helps, particularly for the clearance level where you have to get interviewed by a government cop, and the cop interviews your family, neighbors, past spouses, past supervisors. They check if you have an arrest record, your bank account, your credit, whether you walked away from a real estate contract, and so on.
If they ban atheists - my career is over!
But anyway you have to be 100% honest and not hold anything back. If they ask a general question “is there anything else that you can tell me about alcohol, drugs, foreign trips, whatever that I did not bring up?” - well you gotta tell all. Because they may be testing you with that question alone and already know more than you volunteered.
That’s the type of background check I had been through and what they want is someone who is far more honest than the average Joe. What I want is someone more honest than the average jane. What I assume out on the streets is different.
It should be of no surprise that out of 30 friends, all but one of them had to go through background checks. And I have long time friends from over 20 years ago.
Actually the norm is no longer to pair up for children. For a couple of years now, single parent families have been the majority lifestyle for child rearing in America. So now, what use is the conventional institution of marriage to the society?
I seem to recall reading that kids raised by a “single parent” (i.e. their mother) are far more likely to live in poverty and be recipients of those welfare benefits we all hate to pay taxes to fund.
True dat. I read the same. Just say’n the norm is no longer what we may remember it to be. This New Normal covers a lot different stuff… and dang if it doesn’t always lead back to poverty somehow!
This New Normal covers a lot different stuff… and dang if it doesn’t always lead back to poverty somehow!
x2 income$ = How “home$”
will-one-day-beshould beare priced.BWAHAHAHicHAHAHicHAHAHAHAHicHAHAHic* (DennisN™)
72 million people making $500 or less a week says you’re right.
“So the spouse you get now may be a complete stranger to you in fifteen years.”
This is always true. You will not be the same person in 15 years either. Sometimes it doesn’t take 15 years. My husband became a quite a bit different after a cardiac arrest caused brain damage. Fortunately, his sense of humor is intact.
…. all because of Lying Realtors….
We have cash, we have mobility and would love to buy us a shanty in lower Delaware but I cannot or will not walk away from high $$(high for me) employment for what is certain to be less opportunity there. All the dumps in New England(northeastern upstate NY, VT) are in foreclosure purgatory and “the market” is seized up there because prices are so absolutely grossly inflated. Kent and Sussex County Delaware have massive amounts of inventory. Massive…. most of it is new and the asking prices are grossly inflated even though they’re much more affordable to us. It’s a case of *bring your money with you* because you’re not going to earn much here which is the case with FL, AZ and NV. Even though I commuted back to NY from lower DE for two years, don’t think I could do it again in reverse(live in DE and work in NY during week). Commuting from NYC area back home to VT each weekend is less arduous than NYC to lower Delaware but still difficult. If only the Realtor Crime Syndicate weren’t price-fixing in VT, we’d make the move.
Patience is hard to come by but the choice is clear;
A) Continue saving and maintain mobility in the tri-state area
B) Empty bank account, lose mobility and be stuck in an area (New England? Delaware?) where economic opportunity is doubtful.
By 2004, the reality of this new economic paradigm of doubtful employment and ever lower wages dawned on us and we stand by it now. That paradigm will obliterate the Realtor Crime Syndicate effort to enslave the public by artificially inflating housing prices.
To commute from lower DE to NY on the weekends just so you can “own” a house?
Banana,
We like lower DE and I lived there for 2 years. My wife and daughter would move there while I worked in NY(or wherever they assign me). I could “own” a house here too (we actually do through a family trust) but we all hate living here.
My wife and I are eventually interested in getting some sort of beach house in Delaware, but the prices out there are still insane. I suspect real price reductions won’t happen until people are forced to sell by one means or another. Too many of the sellers are holding onto a dream that this is just a temporary condition.
There are condo buildings near the ocean, but they were built some number of years ago (70’s?). We stayed in one as a rental - condo fees are close to 1000$/mo (due to the age of the building constant maintenance is required). While these buildings were mainly built to be investment properties (pulling in rental income), the current prices are far too high for that any more. At some point price speculation drove the prices even higher, and sellers haven’t faced up to that yet.
If you go away from resort areas, prices are far more reasonable, but I am baffled by some of the housing developments out in the middle of nowhere. The only thing I can think of is that some of these would be the first home that people buy once they retire, but that’s just a guess. If you go too far north, you have folks trying to commute to Newark.
In some areas the farmers were able to sell their land to developers and make a pantload, but those days are largely over as well. I see signs posted all over the place, but very little construction activity.
Jack,
I don’t monitor anything near the beach at all. Anything within 5 miles of the beach is so delusionally priced that I don’t bother. We canvass everything from High1 west to the MD border from Lewes north to Dover air base. Towns like Marydel and Hartly appeal to us, not Rehoboth and Dewey. We came very close to striking on a place in Felton last year. It was overpriced by about 35% so decided to wait as the place was already on the market a year. Sure enough, some dope came along and gave them asking price. It was a gem but not worth paying 135%. BTW, we want to live there not just a part time gig.
BigV…. We’re not interested in buying in metro ny/nj/ct area.
Heh. My in-laws are near Felton, so I know the area fairly well. I don’t know enough of the neighbors to get any sense of what most of them do for a living however. It seems to have a rural flavor - people like to hunt and fish in their spare time, and outside of town there are soybean and corn fields. Some people there keep animals (cattle, hogs, chickens, goats, etc). If you are cool with that sort of thing, you could fit right in, I guess..
I can’t speak to the price of land in rural areas - there has been a bubble there too in some parts of the country, but I don’t really know what is driving it.
Yeah anything west of Highway 1 is as rural is you can find anywhere and yes its overpriced still. The appeal anywhere in Delaware is the favorable tax treatment there and it’s situated next to high tax states.
Where are you? NJ? Philly?
We are in the DC area.
While I have lived in cities for many years, I grew up on a farm elsewhere in the country, so being in rural areas brings back childhood memories. For people who have always lived in a city, I imagine that rural areas must seem kind of strange.
My wife was asking if you remember where the place was in Felton that you were looking at. She was saying that “we might know the dope that payed full price” :-).
Yes I do.
Black Swamp Rd and the former owner is a “Tina Turner” believe it or not. Sold to some sucker Aug-Sept of last year. It’s a sore subject that I seldom bring up as Mrs. RAL really really liked the place.
My wife and I are eventually interested in getting some sort of beach house in Delaware, but the prices out there are still insane ??
Yeah, wife and I went through the same process…Decided, instead of buying a house on the beach we bought a house that we can bring to the beach…Motor Home…
Do not commute. It will ruin your whole life. If house prices are unaffordable near work, then just wait until they become affordable. You are going to get a great deal, you’ll see.
By 2004, the reality of this new economic paradigm of doubtful employment and ever lower wages dawned on us and we stand by it now.
Geez RAL, that’s quite a line standin’ behind you,… looks like it winds clean ’round the whole lower 48, (appears to detour a bit goin’ by ND & WY)
“Lots of ads on TV lately that are focusing on people who have the IRS on their A$$, many more ads than I remember seeing in the past.”
There was an expose’ a few days ago on one of the biggest companies cited above. The man running the ads and scam is located in Texas. Apparently he is under investigation in several states. One thing you will see from his tv espose’ tape is that he overly indulges on food.
Where have we seen this before???
—————————
HUD offering government-owned, foreclosed homes for only $100 down
St. Pete Times | Saturday, April 16, 2011 | Mark Puente, Times Staff Writer
Magan Landsiedel and Jeff Smolinski just bought a $133,000 home in Largo. Their down payment: $100.
A typical government-insured mortgage would have required $4,700 down; a conventional lender might have demanded more than $26,000.
But Landsiedel and Smolinski took advantage of a little-known U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development program that lets people buy government-owned foreclosed homes for just $100 down.
Uncle Sam is looking for buyers for 3,451 homes like this in Florida.
Obama is rad. “Do you think we’re stupid”? I love it! He gets caught on the mike saying something the rest of us have been screaming for years. Could not be more perfect.
Yeah, I got a nice chill up my leg when I heard that.
I’d like to hear more speeches like this off-mike catch. Ever since he spoke here back in January, I’ve been waiting for another hit-it-outta-the-park speech. And I’ve been disappointed.
Come on, Barack, let ‘er rip like you did with your “Gabby opened her eyes!” riff back on January 12 in Tucson. That got us rocking out in chilly Arizona Stadium. And, from what I could see on the Jumbotron, it got the McKale Center crowd going too.
So, I know you can do it. Yes, you can.
+999,999,999
Does anybody really believe that was an “off mike” moment?
Maybe we are “that stupid”.
This is nothing more than an O for 2012 infomercial.
Trust me, I’ll reign in the banks and wall street.
Burn me once….
Scotty beam me up
“Does anybody really believe that was an “off mike” moment”?
Of course they do, they have nothing else to believe in, so far Barry has been nothing but a bummer for them. Barry is out raising money to run again, where’s he going to get it? From the likes of Peggy Joesph?
Barry has comported himself swimmingly in office, m’friend. So sorry you have no legitimate complaints. How’d you like his budget proposal? I really liked the way the Repubs would only sign off if he agreed not to use any money towards shutting down Guantanamo Bay. That was sweet. Rebubs are turds.
“Does anybody really believe that was an “off mike” moment?”
Just the same people who actually believed it was an accidental
“wardrobe malfunction.”
Oh, the libs are pretty sure it was a setup. And why not? Anytime Obama says something reasonable, the media ignores it in favor of Charlie Sheen. So the O gussies it up as an “off-mike” moment. The media turns on the spooky music and 60’s era footage of film reels, and breathlessly reports… something favorable to Obama.
It was a discovered check.
O is brilliant, too bad Wall St is stronger.
ROTHFLMAO! Thanks for the much needed humor!
lil’ Opie (the Non-Hawaiian), destroyer of America!
Auntie “B” t’aint gonna give ya a piece of home-made berry-pie ’tills you shows yer her your real certification of live hatching!
Until Debt Do We Part
“Debts must be paid. The alternative is default. The U.S. government’s debts cannot be paid. Yet voters cannot bring themselves to face the reality of default. There has always been a way to delay the day of reckoning. There has always been another central bank rabbit to pull out of the fractional reserve hat. There has always been a way to move the decimal points to the right on the asset side one more time, and move the liabilities off budget. There has always been a way to persuade lenders to lend the drunken government enough money for another night on the town.”
~Dr. Gary North
There has always been a way to move the decimal points to the right on the asset side one more time
“Diz all the Gubmint’s fault!, Diz ALL the Gubmint’s fault!, eye’s just can’t stops meself from cryin’, pissin’, moanin’ every day”
waiting, still waiting…come on wmbz what’s YOUR best guess? $$$$$$$$$$, put it out there for everyone here to see, so you can advance from “nightly worried-daily posted” straight to,… “dread aghast!”.
What’s America’s value? All of it! Every dam, leveled road, each redwood tree, all the coal chunks…I mean how are YOU gonna stop make an “educated blah, blah, blah…guess?” verses, what would really cause you to say: “Eyes declares,…well shut my mouth!”
The convention as long as credit lines were wide open has been to spend our way out of a recession. If we cannot spend our way out of this one then the next step in the death spiral has already begun.
I hate debt, but all those years of 8% returns on investments were all financed with debt. On one side huge “apparent” gains. On the other side vast debts to match.
What did we really gain?
It’s like our own individual lives. We like to think we are special, but we are no more durable than the smoke and mirrors economy. Just as our lives are no more than sandcastles that wil be washed away by the waves of time, so is it with the paper gains. Here today, gone tomorrow.
Gas prices could soon break July 2008 record
By Gary Strauss, USA TODAY
Gasoline prices, on the rise for more than three weeks, could top all-time highs by Memorial Day.
Nationally, a gallon of regular averages $3.81 — up 10 cents in the past week and nearly 96 cents above year-ago levels. Industry experts say prices could surpass July 2008’s record $4.11 as seasonal demand, speculators and political uncertainty in Libya and the Middle East propel crude oil prices.
“We could easily tack on another 30 to 40 cents a gallon,” says Darin Newsom, senior analyst at energy tracker Telvent DTN.
In some areas, gas has already hit those levels. In Los Angeles, regular averages $4.20 a gallon. In Chicago, it’s averaging $4.17.
Typically, prices peak around July 4, the height of the summer driving season. But escalating prices are already crimping demand and could derail vacation travel, says Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service.
The fast run-up could mean a price plateau by Memorial Day — about six weeks earlier than normal, Kloza says.
Another homebuyer update:
As some of you may recall, I decided this past year to go back into the housing market, as I was originally going to relocate some 8 years ago.
The original plans were halted due to BID WARS here in the Tampa Bay Area, most specifically in Pinellas County.
Flipping was becoming a new form of “employment”. I didn’t even know what that was until I met a Condo Buyer who told me he had purchased several new units in Downtown Tampa. I asked how he could afford to buy all these? Was he finding tenants? NO. He was just “flipping them”.
The “end user” was going to end up paying the mortgage.
I was astounded that such a business model could exist in an American Banking system.
But, I digress.
I had a contract on a Freddie Mac foreclosure in October of last year.
We anticipated closing the sale before Thanksgiving, since I was an all-cash buyer. No problems. Did the home inspection. Bought a few pieces of furniture for the new place, ready to move in for the holidays.
Then, the former occupant filed suit, claiming , of course, that the Bank had no right to foreclose and that lack of payment did not constitute a reason for a foreclosure, etc.
My contract was “canceled”.
I rode by yesterday to see if the former “owner” managed to get the house back from Freddie Mac.
House is still vacant, but now, the plants are beginning to die and the appearance of being unkempt is starting to show.
It’s just another vacant property that hasn’t reached settlement.
It was vacant for about 6 months before it made it to the market and sat for several months before I made an offer on the house.
Another case of mortgage purgatory. Decay may be the ultimate owner.
Madness. Utter madness. Although I had to laugh at the thought of the indignant “owner” suing because lack of payment did not constitute a reason for the mean old bank to foreclose.
Au $1485.00 Ag $43.05 Oil $109+ SWEET!
This must be a bubble!
I agree this is a bubble.
I have learned to recognize then when an asset price suddenly and wildly accelerates. Gold not so much, but silver up $18 in the past 90 days is way off the charts. I may be wrong and silver could easily hit $50 soon, but I doubt current values will hold in the medium long term.
In another 5 years it will most likely be higher, but in one year?
Mortgage Problems Still a Big Drag on Bank Earnings ~ CNBC
If there’s one takeaway from the banks’ first-quarter earnings this week, it’s got to be this: Mortgages are still a real problem.
“We have homes sitting there for 500 days rotting that we can’t do anything about,” says Jamie Dimon, chief executive at JPMorgan Chase.
It became evident with JPMorgan Chase’s results on Wednesday. The company beat earnings estimates only because it made so much money trading commodities. The mortgage picture was grim — a $1 billion charge for the increased cost of mortgage servicing thanks to new regulations, and another $650 million for increased foreclosure costs.
“It’s more people, more costs, more compliance rules,” JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon told reporters on a conference call after the bank’s results were released. “It’s going to cost more money” to service mortgages and complete foreclosures.
Those costs rose while JPMorgan’s portfolio of residential mortgage loans shrank 12 percent.
In part, Dimon blames the rising costs on the fact that state attorneys general haven’t been able to reach a universal settlement with the banks on their mortgage servicing. He says it’s making the problem worse. “We have homes sitting there for 500 days rotting that we can’t do anything about,” he said. “That’s not good for anybody.”
Big Gubmint…We’re on it! Actually this may be a success in their eyes, could have been worse.
$513 million paid out in bogus home tax credits
Associated Press
WASHINGTON — The Internal Revenue Service has paid out $513 million in home buyer tax credits to people who probably didn’t qualify, a government investigator said Friday.
Most of the money — about $326 million — went to more than 47,000 taxpayers who didn’t qualify as first-time homebuyers because there was evidence that they already had owned homes, said the report by J. Russell George, the Treasury inspector general for tax administration.
Other credits went to prison inmates, taxpayers who bought homes before the credit was enacted and people who did not actually buy homes.
“The IRS has taken positive steps to strengthen controls and help prevent the issuance of inappropriate home buyer credits,” George said.
“However, many of the actions occurred after hundreds of thousands of home buyer credits had already been issued, including fraudulent and erroneous credits totaling millions of dollars.”
The popular credit provided up to $8,000 to first-time home buyers and up to $6,500 to qualified current owners who bought another home during parts of 2009 and 2010.
IRS spokeswoman Michelle Eldridge said the agency worked hard to enforce a complicated tax credit that provided nearly $29 billion to more than 4 million taxpayers.
This Tax Day, ‘Farms’ Owned by the Rich Provide Massive Tax Shelter
For all those feeling the pinch this Tax Day, rest assured America’s wealthiest one percent have no idea what you’re going through. Not only have they shaved a projected collective $121 billion off their income taxes thanks to Bush’s tax cuts for the rich but, thanks to misuse of agricultural tax breaks, many will not end up paying their fair share of property taxes either
Take Michael Dell, founder of Dell Computers and the second-richest Texan, who qualified for an agricultural property tax break on his sprawling 1,757-acre residential ranch in suburban Austin and saved over $1 million simply because his family and friends sometimes use the land as a private hunting preserve to shoot deer. Or take billionaire publisher Steve Forbes, who got more than a 90 percent property tax reduction on hundreds of acres of his multimillion-dollar estate in upscale Bedminister, New Jersey, just by putting a couple of cows out to pasture. They are not alone. All across the country, a huge number of America’s wealthiest are tapping into agricultural tax breaks—and none of them have to do any real farming to qualify.
Not only are agricultural tax breaks allowing wealthy landowners to shift their tax burden onto other less-affluent taxpayers but they are also helping bankrupt public schools, which derive the bulk of their funding from local property taxes.
http://www.thenation.com/article/159943/tax-day-farms-owned-rich-provide-massive-tax-shelter
How can this be?! We all KNOW the rich are overtaxed and oppressed!
Inequality
The 1% solution
MY COLLEAGUE and I have something in common: we both think concentrations of power in alliances between gargantuan business instititutions and gargantuan government institutions are generally terrible. My colleague and I don’t have much in common in how we analyse the formation of those concentrations of power, or what we think should be done about them. Another thing my colleague and I have in common is that we each think the other guy’s approach to this problem is hopelessly naive. And another thing we don’t have in common is that I largely agreed with Joseph Stiglitz’s article in Vanity Fair, which my colleague describes as an example of self-refutingly absurd liberal ideology.
To sum up the basic thrust of what I agree with in Mr Stiglitz’s piece: I think the rich are getting much, much richer, while regular people (in the developed world, which is what we’re talking about here) are at best treading water. I think that wealth brings power, and the fact that the rich are getting much, much richer relative to everyone else means that the rich also exert increasing influence over the economy, government and society. I think income mobility and equality of opportunity have declined in America over the past 40 years, to the point where America is now more segregated by class divisions than many European countries. I think a major reason for these shifts has been the increasing dominance, since the Reagan era, of an ideology that is indifferent to or actively celebrates inequality of income. I think this ideology is bad: bad for the economy, bad for society, bad for art and culture, bad for the moral character of those who subscribe to it. My chief difference with Mr Stiglitz is that I think his confidence that inequality will eventually lead to a vociferous political reaction against wealthy financial elites in America is misplaced.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/04/inequality
Why does he have to “think” the rich are getting richer when you can just look up the numbers and see that the American “rich” saw approx. 300% income gains over the last 2 decades.
Anybody here who saw their income go up 300% in the same years?
Good article.
Good find.
Bizarre comments.
This is a point I”ve made with several of my conservative friends.
We all fear the same thing. A small group of elite taking power, our liberties and our wealth.
The right thinks that the problem is gov and we need to shrink it.
The left thinks that it’s corporations that have taken over government and are using it like a tool to fleece America.
As with most things I say follow the money. When prisdents are worth 10’s of billions such as (Putin,Sadam,Quadafi,Shaw, Mubarek etc) When they can and do throw the business elite in jail at a whim. When they don’t leave power. That’s when the problem is gov. Our politicians are puppets. They get thrown some high priced trinkets but they don’t make what the elite Wall Street CEO’s make not even close. It is not our gov throwing the Wall Street elite and CEO’s into jail or removing them from power but just the opposite. If a politician doesn’t tow the line (ie Russ Feingold) they are removed with an avalanch of money and propaganda from the MSM. The MSM is not controlled by the gov but by the financial elite. The problem is the elite in this country not the gov. Shrinking gov will just increase their advantage, in fact that’s exactly why they are funding the union busting. That’s exactly why they try to defund regulatory agencies or sabatage them by getting their lobbiests appointed. That’s why they want to roll back regulation, Enron made a killing on deregulated markets in California.
The gov is at best Kabuki theater to distract the masses and at it’s worse a tool that has been taken over by the elite which they now weild to destroy America.
“I think that wealth brings power, and the fact that the rich are getting much, much richer relative to everyone else means that the rich also exert increasing influence over the economy, government and society.”
Kochtopi will amplify…
Sorry if this has been posted before.
From the article
The Real Housewives of Wall Street
Christy is the wife of John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley. Susan is the widow of Peter Karches, a close friend of the Macks who served as president of Morgan Stanley’s investment-banking division. Neither woman appears to have any serious history in business, apart from a few philanthropic experiences. Yet the Federal Reserve handed them both low-interest loans of nearly a quarter of a billion dollars through a complicated bailout program that virtually guaranteed them millions in risk-free income.
Why is the Federal Reserve forking over $220 million in bailout money to the wives of two Morgan Stanley bigwigs?
http://thehousingbubbleblog.com/?p=6422#comment-1912971
Damn overpaid union janitors!
Oh wait…
Damn the system that makes it ok to steal the taxes at the point of a gun to pay the union janitor who is a taker, not a maker.
The plot and storyline of The Godfather part IV isn’t so hard to imagine.
Damn the system that makes it ok to steal the taxes at the point of a gun to pay hundreds of billions to a select few people and then blame the $15/hr janitor for the fraud.
Cept, if no one would volunteer to be the janitor the select few would have less of a reason to point the gun to raise the tax. But that’s like asking the squirrel to resist the cob of corn inside the trap, eh?
“Gotta feed the squirrels” says the select few.
Sorry if this has been posted before.
The Real Housewives of Wall Street
Christy is the wife of John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley. Susan is the widow of Peter Karches, a close friend of the Macks who served as president of Morgan Stanley’s investment-banking division. Neither woman appears to have any serious history in business, apart from a few philanthropic experiences. Yet the Federal Reserve handed them both low-interest loans of nearly a quarter of a billion dollars through a complicated bailout program that virtually guaranteed them millions in risk-free income.
Why is the Federal Reserve forking over $220 million in bailout money to the wives of two Morgan Stanley bigwigs?
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-real-housewives-of-wall-street-look-whos-cashing-in-on-the-bailout-20110411
J6P won’t care, he’s too busy polishing his pickup truck. If he’s worried about anything, it’s the possibility of an NFL lockout or strike. After all, his own self identity is tied to the local NFL franchise. If the Broncos can make a comeback its all good.
He won’t care because he won’t find out about it. Seriously this is F’n theft on a MASSIVE SCALE. In days of old this would be all over the media and politicians would have been howling about it.
Now the MSM and our politicians are owned by the wall street elite.
Wow.
This reads like the financial operations of a banana republic’s dictator.
It is truly crony-plutocracy.
This is a remarkable story.
It sounds truly Randian. In that universe, you have a group of elites from whose well being the well being of the rest of society emanates.
The qualities those at the top of the financial sector posses are rare. But what of value have they left in their wake? The robber barons left massive infrastructure. These people just left… massive debt. Massive virtual casinos where people bet on just about anything. Gambling is usually illegal - except when the state runs it in the form of the metastasizing lotteries, sucking in more and more from those least able to afford it. Or massive derivatives markets where the house - the market makers - always wins.
Volcker wondered what of actual value had all this “financial innovation” of the past 30 years yielded. He concluded one thing - the creation of the ATM. And that can be debated too, as it allows people instant access to empty their accounts.*
I hope this story gets some serious circulation.
Which reminds me, I still need to order The Inside Job. Might do that now. Watching in dropped-jaw amazement of the brazenness of the government and financial sector elite is quite eye-opening.
* citation: "“I wish somebody would give me some shred of evidence linking financial innovation with a benefit to the economy.”
Mr. Volcker’s favorite financial innovation of the past 25 years? The ATM. “It really helps people, it’s useful.”
http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2009/12/08/volcker-praises-the-atm-blasts-finance-execs-experts/
Read the RS article. READ IT.The level of arrogant theft is stunning. Absolutely stunning. And to think that to this day, there are wages slaves right here on this blog who pandering for these mother f@#$%ers.
“It is truly crony-plutocracy.”
Where do Christy Mack and Susan Karches worship?
On a more positive note (not to downplay the above) on the A.M. radio today I heard a radio program highlighting being debt free and having the house PAID off.
The radio show host said that having a PAID off house is the “new’ BMW.
The theme of the show was highlighting People who had paid off debt and were now free and clear. Talk about being in the Twilight Zone, this was different.
One couple, $55,000 in debt erased it all in 21 months, had an emergency fund and were celebrating by going to Disney World. Ask me and they should have been saving that money too, especially because the wife was a public school teacher. The husband was a landscaper doing well installing patios in spite of the downturn. I think their key was going from ~$98,000 per yr. income to ~$108,000 income. The husband said his was the increase in income.
It was just strange listening to this on the radio.
More painful wrist slaps in store for Megabank, Inc?
Banks, SEC in talks to settle mortgage charges: report
Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:30am EDT
(Reuters) - The U.S. securities regulator is in talks with major Wall Street banks to settle fraud allegations relating to the sale of toxic mortgage bonds that helped unleash the financial crisis, the Wall Street Journal reported, citing sources familiar with the matter.
The first settlement with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) could be reached as soon as next week, while some of the other deals could take months to work out, the WSJ said.
SEC’s negotiations with the banks include JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup Inc, Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, now an unit of Bank of America, and UBS, according to the Journal.
…
Related News
* BofA expected to beat Street, but mortgage costs loom
Fri, Apr 15 2011
* Swiss stocks - Factors to watch on April 15
Fri, Apr 15 2011
* UPDATE 5-Morgan Stanley’s Gorman made $15.2 mln in 2010
Thu, Apr 14 2011
* Senate panel slams Goldman in scathing crisis report
Thu, Apr 14 2011
* Regulators probe whether banks colluded in Libor: report
Thu, Apr 14 2011
See how guys who follow Cramer end up? BwaHahahhahaHAHaHAhAHAHAaHHASAHAAHAAAAAA!!!!
Money & Company
Tracking the market and economic trends
that shape your finances.
Lenny Dykstra charged with bankruptcy fraud
April 15, 2011 | 1:39 pm
…
U.S. prosecutors Friday charged famed baseball outfielder Lenny Dykstra with bankruptcy fraud.
According to a statement by prosecutors, Dykstra was taken into custody at his Encino home Thursday night. The charge relates to fraud Dykstra allegedly committed involving the sale of items from a Ventura County mansion he owned.
“The federal charges stem from a bankruptcy case that Dykstra filed on July 7, 2009,” the statement said. “The criminal case filed in U.S. District Court alleges that Dykstra removed, destroyed and sold property that was part of the bankruptcy estate without the permission of the bankruptcy trustee.
According to prosecutors, “Dykstra admitted in a bankruptcy hearing to having arranged the sale of sports memorabilia and a dresser that were property of the bankruptcy estate; and Dykstra “ripped out” a $50,000 sink from his mansion and took granite from the mansion and installed it in an office he set up at the Camarillo airport after he had filed for bankruptcy protection.”
As his baseball career wound down, Dykstra gained success as a businessman, first with a luxury car wash in Corona that the ballplayer dubbed “the Taj Mahal” of car washes. He then expanded the business to other parts of Southern California and in 2007 sold it to investors.
Dykstra also took his head-first style to Wall Street after teaching himself financial analysis and striking up a friendship with CNBC “Mad Money” host Jim Cramer, who hired Dykstra to write a stock-picking column for his influential website, TheStreet.com.
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* U.S. NEWS
* APRIL 16, 2011
The Confessions of an Inside Trader
By MICHAEL ROTHFELD, SUSAN PULLIAM and VANESSA O’CONNELL
LONG BEACH, N.Y.—Kenneth T. Robinson knew he should walk away. But in an interview with The Wall Street Journal, he says he just couldn’t stop trafficking in insider-trading tips.
It was September 2009—a full 15 years after he’d first gotten involved in an alleged multimillion-dollar fraud that ranks among the longest-running insider-trading cases in U.S. history. The scheme was showing serious cracks: One of Mr. Robinson’s two partners in the alleged crime, his close friend Garrett Bauer, had started throwing around big money—buying fancy homes in Manhattan and Florida and paying with millions in cash.
“I told Garrett it was stupid,” Mr. Robinson said in the interview. He urged Mr. Bauer that they all stop before the cops caught on.
But Mr. Robinson, flipping burgers one recent afternoon in his backyard on Long Island, said he failed to take his own advice. Within just a few weeks, he resumed trying to profit from inside information. “I didn’t think anyone would notice,” he said.
…
Mr. Robinson, the 45-year-old father of two young boys, said he never thought he would trigger their undoing with his own trading. “It didn’t seem like it would raise eyebrows when it wasn’t millions of dollars.”
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Senate mortgage investigation blasts WAMU, Goldman
Published: Friday, April 15, 2011, 6:00 AM
Updated: Friday, April 15, 2011, 12:11 PM
Jeff Manning, The Oregonian
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As hard as the report is on WAMU, it’s arguably harder on Goldman Sachs. It doesn’t quite go far as Matt Taibbi, the reporter who in a now legendary Rolling Stone article dubbed Goldman the “great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money.”
But it comes close. The report goes on at length about Goldman’s habit of selling billions of mortgage-backed trash while not revealing to its sucker-buyers that the investment bank was taking massive short positions on the same securities — in effect betting that they would lose value.
One one trade, the report said, “Goldman took 100 percent of the short side of the $2 billion (collateralized debt obligation) betting against the assets” it has just sold.
The securities, predictably, tanked, much to the buyers’ chagrin. Goldman, meanwhile, celebrated. Thanks to its short position, when the mortgage-backed securities lost value, Goldman made a cool $1.7 billion at its customers expense.