April 30, 2011

Are We Entering The Let’s-Get-Real Double Dip?

From the weekend topic suggestions thread, I posed this question: “In each region I posted on this past week, I found references to the expiration of the tax credit for buying houses, and how that would result in lower comparable sales numbers. Are we entering the post-tax credit double dip in housing?”

A reply, “I think we are entering the let’s-get-real-the-RE-fantasy-has-ended-and-the-FBs-are-really-screwed dip.”

Another said, “I did see something posted on line about a “double dip” recession, but I didn’t even bother to click on it, I just laughed. Wasn’t aware we’d come out of the first “recession”, if you could call it that. What we are looking at, IMO, is massive failure of global and national systems, across the boards. Housing is just a part of that, added to failed wars, failed education, failed legal systems, failed political parties, failed legislation, failed immigration policies, failed economic policies, failed products, failed energy policies,etc. I think there is massive systemic failure, across the boards, nationally and internationally.”

A reply, “I agree with you. There is massive systemic failure. We probably disagree on why that is, but I do think it leads to a good topic as you suggest. There’s “Where do we go from here?” in a political sense/as a country. I think it’d be interested to talk about it in a more individual sense.”

One said, “The breakdown of government was exactly that — the breaking down of governing. Governing includes, but is not limited to:

1. Regulating the heck out of corporations who take advantage of human needs.
2. Breaking up monopolies before they become too-big-to-fail.
3. Ending the public/private partnerships which coporations use to rob the taxpayers and enrich themselves.

In other words, if you want to break down the breakdown of government, you need to restore government. See how that works?”

One replied, “You’re assuming the failure is simply a result of the government not effectively regulating private entities. Failed education. Failed foreign policy. Failed wars. Failed regulating agencies (they simply didn’t do their job)…”

“Failure of government is simply failure to deliver on its promises and responsibilities. If it can’t deliver on what it’s promised to do right now, why would one expect it could deliver on EVEN MORE? A strong, centralized government simply isn’t capable of doing all the things the citizens of this country demand. And when it fails, for some reason the citizens demand even more.”

“Think if you were running a company…if an employee failed in their daily tasks, would you give them additional, more important tasks to do as well? Or would you fire them/lighten their load to re-evaluate what they really were capable of delivering on?”

And finally, “The robo-signing debacle and ensuing slowdown in foreclosures has muddied the picture a bit. But simple consideration of an ongoing high rate of mortgage defaults (the front-end of the foreclosure process) coupled with a slowdown of NODs, evictions, etc (the back-end) suggests a case of constipation which will eventually produce a larger-than-expected dump of for-sale inventory.”

The Monterey County Weekly. “Bankruptcy court in Salinas is a decidedly unceremonious place. The courtroom offers no indication from the outside that it’s federal space. But even for its informal nature, the courtroom is tense. Debtors who have filed for bankruptcy appear unsure whether to dress up or down, mixing casual attire with a pair of heels or a button-down shirt. The room is hushed but for the chatter of familiar attorneys sharing new bankruptcy statistics, or those who advise their clients in whispers about what to say when they are called up to the stand by the bankruptcy trustee.”

“After Shannon and Steve couldn’t find a buyer for their Seaside home in late 2007, they declared bankruptcy in 2008 to stay up to date on mortgage payments, planning to wait out the recession. This month, they received foreclosure notification after the bank denied a modification to lower their monthly payments on their second mortgage. (Bankruptcy filings are public record, but the Weekly agreed to use only first names for some who shared their stories.)”


“The couple shed some $60,000 of credit card debt in their Chapter 13 bankruptcy, which allows debtors to pay back part of what they owe to keep some property. They used that credit card for a major addition to the house they bought for $300,000 in 2003. Steve, a carpenter, spent weekends adding a second floor and backyard, doing what he says is $170,000 worth of labor himself. They planned to sell the house, hoping to make $300,000 for themselves and their adopted infant daughter. The adoption cost them $18,000 – and despite their financial plight, they hope to start the process anew this year to adopt a second child.
”

“But even bankruptcy didn’t save their house, despite what they describe as conservative spending habits. ‘With the equity we pulled out, we didn’t buy a Hummer. We adopted a baby,’ says Steve, 31. ‘We bought a home that we could comfortably afford. Our mistake was the addition, but we didn’t know it was a mistake at the time.’”


“Carlos filed bankruptcy this month, three years after defaulting on his East Salinas house. As a car salesman for Ford, his commission-based income fell by more than half in 2008 to $30,000. ‘I wasn’t making enough money to pay the mortgage,’ he says. His parents, sister, girlfriend and newborn daughter all lived in the home he bought for $739,000 in 2006, when business was good – and when stated-income loans, which didn’t require applicants like Carlos, then 21, to prove they made enough money to afford a huge mortgage, flowed like water.
”

“But still saddled with debt obligations, ‘I was depending on my credit cards,’ Carlos says. To recover the $45,000 he owed, the credit card company began garnishing wages from his new job with Verizon. With 30 percent being withdrawn from each paycheck, Carlos went bankrupt. ‘I had no other choice.’” 


“Salinas attorney Magnolia Zarraga has found bankruptcy to be surprisingly rewarding. ‘You truly are helping people to move forward,’ she says. 
Zarraga takes on about three pro bono cases a year, and is partnering with Legal Services for Seniors to establish a legal clinic for seniors who need to declare bankruptcy. ‘It used to be loss of job or medical debt were the big reasons [for bankruptcy],’ Zarraga says. ‘Now the majority of cases I’m seeing are foreclosures.’” 


“‘It’s the bottom, when they’re in front of me. They perceive this as the worst,’ says Marc Del Piero, one of three Chapter 7 trustees assigned to Monterey County residents. ‘In truth, it’s the beginning of the rest of their lives. The opportunity to have their financial obligations absolved is the opportunity to restore hope to people who have lost all hope.’”




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33 Comments »

Comment by Jim A
2011-04-30 07:37:17

Admittedly, what economists mean by “recession” is somewhat different that what the rest of us mean. For them it is a period of FALLING economic output. For the rest of us we general mean a period of LOWER economic output. So to them we’re no longer IN a recession, because economic output is slowly growning. But job losses were so high that for the rest of us, the fact that we haven’t even come close to replacing all the jobs lost means that we still have an economy operating at a much lower level than it was during the bubble.

Comment by Dan Bishop
2011-04-30 07:46:10

spot on Jim. We haven’t seen anything yet…

 
Comment by Blue Skye
2011-04-30 15:49:08

Unfortunately, economic “input” in the form of FedGov borrowing from the future and spending is counted as “output”. Without it, the numbers would still be going down. Debt doesn’t make things better, it can make them look better. The longer the reckoning is postponed, the bigger the payload.

 
 
Comment by salinasron
2011-04-30 08:47:32

“Salinas attorney Magnolia Zarraga has found bankruptcy to be surprisingly rewarding. ‘You truly are helping people to move forward,’ she says.”

I’m sure it is. Carlos got to help inflate the housing market here in Salinas, live in a $739K house for probably less than my rent, get a free gift of $45K do credit card spending. In two years they will be selling him another house, just cheaper in price.

Comment by Ben Jones
2011-04-30 09:18:06

Yeah, and he was 21 years old at the time. A no-doc loan to a 21 YO for over $700k. Un-freaking believable. It says stated income. I wonder what amount he stated?

Comment by Realtors Are Liars
2011-04-30 10:01:22

20 somethings were the new pool of demand for Lying Realtors during the bubble. And the supply side met that demand and now the participants realize it wasn’t a good idea to market to this crowd. It’s mind numbing really. Watching those stupid H&G TV shows where a 22 year old kid is talking like a man with a paper @sshole. All I can say is “wow, what a #$%$ing arrogant little moron greenhorn.”

I must say I have the same reaction when I see a 20 year old cop. A badge, sidearm and cruiser is a dangerous thing in the hands of a 20 year old.

Comment by GH
2011-04-30 11:38:37

I agree, jobs requiring wisdom of age like police officer should be older than 20.. Most construction trades require 5 years of apprenticeship before cutting a prospective home builder loose. Police officer - not much more training than a “realtor”.

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Comment by bink
2011-04-30 12:17:04

I agree with your premise, but I believe most state troopers are typically required a full 6 months training at a police academy and additional time doing other things before they are sent out into the world.

How much training does a real estate agent get?

 
Comment by Realtors Are Liars
2011-04-30 12:56:24

Troopers are an exception BTW. 6 month academy and it’s very disciplined.

 
 
Comment by GrizzlyBear
2011-04-30 15:47:11

I got pulled over by one of those greenhorn troopers a few years ago. The guy wasn’t even shaving yet. I actually had to curtail my laughter as he exited his cruiser and walked up to the side of my truck. His arms were stretched way out away from his sides and he was trying to pump out his chest while strutting like a wannabe cowboy or something. I really couldn’t hide my grin. The best part was when he started to talk, and was trying to make his voice sound deep. He was trying to nail me to the wall for anything he could, which amounted to speeding 7 mph over the posted 50. Joke.

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Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-04-30 18:23:45

My little brother was 30 plus when he joined the Border Patrol

Went to his graduation ceremony with my other brother. After the ceremony they were to check out thru security, sign for their gun and badge, and head to their first duty station.

When we were waiting, saw the other grads walking out. Most of them looked like they were 20-21, and went straight to the BP Acadamy when their enlistment in the Army/Marines was up.

All if them were in civvies. And they looked WAAAAY too happy to be going out in public with brand new SIGs, and 50 rounds of free ammo.

I commented to my brother about their happiness. He said “Only the US Government thinks turning 20 year olds loose on the public, with free guns and ammo, is a good idea….” :)

 
 
 
Comment by rms
2011-04-30 14:05:16

“Yeah, and he was 21 years old at the time. A no-doc loan to a 21 YO for over $700k. Un-freaking believable. It says stated income. I wonder what amount he stated?”

Gotta wonder if our expensive legal system could actually prosecute the mortgage broker? Reborn Dubya clearly didn’t see anything wrong happening during his watch.

 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-04-30 15:22:28

Stories like this make my head hurt. Checking the timeline, he must have defaulted as soon as they put the new locks on the front door. Then gets to live rent/penalty free for three years.

And one wonders why he bought the house, and not the parents. Apparantly, they are even more financially screwed up than he is, if that is possible.

I’m beginning to wonder if being a lowlife scum isn’t normal human behavior, and if our society isn’t “reverting to the mean”.

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-04-30 22:38:02

If he stated $60,000 (the income implied by the story’s statement that $30,000 was half what he was making before), then the loan would have been above 11X income — not a promising prospect for repayment in even the best of economic times.

 
 
 
Comment by GH
2011-04-30 09:42:33

Debt is and remains the elephant in the living room everyone is ignoring.

There are literally trillions of dollars in debt ticking away out there that will never be repaid. I cannot see any improvement until this mess is cleared and housing is allowed to adjust to market value.

Comment by bink
2011-04-30 12:18:09

They aren’t ignoring it.. they’re just pretending the room is a lot bigger.

 
 
Comment by Bill in Phoenix and Tampa
2011-04-30 10:23:04

“What we are looking at, IMO, is massive failure of global and national systems, across the boards. Housing is just a part of that, added to failed wars, failed education, failed legal systems, failed political parties, failed legislation, failed immigration policies, failed economic policies, failed products, failed energy policies,etc. I think there is massive systemic failure, across the boards, nationally and internationally.”

We’ve been seeing this for decades in the U.S. Now it is obviously international in the developed nations, particularly all over Europe.

But I’m not running for the hills or getting all into cash or silver. I think one or two people back in March 2009 here on HBB were all into cash. Aladinsane was probably all into gold. Alad cashed in (hopefully not all his gold) and moved to New Zealand. The others are coughing in the dust. Gold at $1566 per ounce now and was around $900 (heading to a $1000 local peak) back then in early 2009. Up over 50% then, very sweet deal.

But then Vanguard 500 index fund is up 79% from the March low of 2009. Doh!

Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-04-30 15:09:47

“….systemic failure…..”

Good thing our bankster class showed the rest of the world how to fook up royally. Nothing like paying them gazillions of dollars for all this expertise. If the other financial lemmings hadn’t followed our leadership, we’d all be speaking German now.

He “said” he was moving to New Zealand.

It could be Butte, Montana, for all we know. :)

Comment by Blue Skye
2011-04-30 15:59:24

He also “said” he was communing with the monks in the mountains of Mexico. Sure. Mania is often greeted as genius.

 
 
Comment by lint
2011-04-30 19:20:11

“But then Vanguard 500 index fund is up 79% from the March low of 2009. Doh!”

In March of 2009 silver was $11 or so. Today silver is $48.

Isn’t that a 363% gain?

Comment by bill in Phoenix and Tampa
2011-04-30 20:17:30

Good point I overlooked. I haven’t opened up my chest of silver in years, since it was in the $6 region. Out of sight, out of mind.

 
 
 
Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-04-30 15:04:24

“…..we didn’t buy a Hummer. We adopted a baby.”

Boo-fricking-Hoo. What a maroon. For starters, the Hummer would have been cheaper, in the long run.

“….$170,000 worth of labor……”

You haven’t “sold” anything until you get paid.

I can’t read stories like this anymore. Sob stories about FBers, written for the local fishwrap by reporters who are also more than likely FBers themselves, for their readers who are FBers.

The language is different, and so is the culture.

Comment by Blue Skye
2011-04-30 16:02:09

Doing “good” helps soothe the guilt of greed, even if it’s transparent.

 
Comment by rms
2011-04-30 17:32:29

“…..we didn’t buy a Hummer. We adopted a baby.”

That’s what Sandra “barren” Bullock did too. Why buy an Elmo that always needs batteries, and tickling, when you can buy the real thing, albeit a shade darker? They’re also anatomically correct, and they make a great prop for the politically correct photo shoot; justifies the diamonds, ‘ya know.

 
 
Comment by traderjack
2011-04-30 17:17:46

The US Navy is full of 20 year old children doing dangerous jobs and using deadly weapons.

Why do you think that the young are more dangerous than the old?

Comment by X-GSfixr
2011-04-30 18:30:41

But it makes for great story telling later, if they survive. :)

Like the story an old Navy guy told me about working in the torpedo shop at Subic Bay.

Didn’t have a refrigerator, so they used the shop Co2 fire extinguishers to cool their beer.

This worked great, until the torpedo alcohol caught fire one day……..

Says he has proof that a human can outrun a cheetah, given the proper motivation….. :)

 
 
Comment by lint
2011-04-30 19:12:04

Spring 2011 Guide of 30 Key Charts to See Before You Buy or Sell Your Home

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig12/white-md1.1.1.html

 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-04-30 22:26:30

“‘With the equity we pulled out, we didn’t buy a Hummer. We adopted a baby,’ says Steve, 31. ‘We bought a home that we could comfortably afford. Our mistake was the addition, but we didn’t know it was a mistake at the time.’”


It’s hard to imagine a more expensive ‘addition’ than adopting a child — except for adopting TWO children, that is…

Comment by Overtaxed
2011-05-01 05:25:57

Should have bought the Hummer, it would have been much cheaper. Shoot, a Ferrari would have been a “cost saving measure” compared to adopting a baby. Not saying it’s bad to adopt (I think it’s a wonderful thing to do actually!), but it’s blindingly expensive to raise children today. Just because it’s a “good” thing to do, doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. Make sure you’re prepared to pay 250-500K for that child over the next 20-22 years before you consider adopting!

Comment by Professor Bear
2011-05-01 07:39:22

“…but it’s blindingly expensive to raise children today.”

Tell me about it.

 
Comment by Carl Morris
2011-05-01 12:12:21

Make sure you’re prepared to pay 250-500K for that child over the next 20-22 years before you consider adopting!

How do poor people find a way to pay that kind of money? Of course, they don’t. Kids cost money, but they only cost huge money if you’re in the middle-wannabe-rich class and trying to help them socially climb a rung or two higher than you did.

 
 
 
Comment by Professor Bear
2011-04-30 22:29:23

“…income fell by more than half in 2008 to $30,000. ‘I wasn’t making enough money to pay the mortgage,’ he says. His parents, sister, girlfriend and newborn daughter all lived in the home he bought for $739,000 in 2006, when business was good…”

Priced in as he was at over 10X annual income, he wasn’t making enough to pay off the loan back when business was good (and he was presumably earning $60K)…

Comment by Professor Bear
2011-04-30 22:31:22

“…His parents, sister, girlfriend and newborn daughter all lived in the home…”

Where, pray tell, did his wife live?

 
 
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