The Darwinian World Of Real Estate
It’s Friday desk clearing time for this blogger. “A landmark bill aimed at reducing mortgage foreclosures is now perhaps the strongest law of its kind in the country. According to Keali’i Lopez, director of the state Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, there were some 6,000 foreclosures in Hawaii last year. Melba Amaral and her husband had defaulted on their mortgage and were in danger of losing the Kalihi Valley home they had lived in for 15 years. ‘You imagine burning your house. Thinking, ‘okay, you want my house? Then I’ll burn it down,’ Melba Amaral said. ‘But the only problem here was that you never knew when you were going to get that eviction notice.’”
“Oakland resident Sara Kershnar has been trying to get Wells Fargo bank to modify her home loan for two years. After the bank allegedly lost some vital documents ‘three to four times,’ Kershnar, began to think they were ‘negligent.’ She began to get angry. Kershnar had an opportunity yesterday few homeowners in her shoes get: She got to vent her anger and grill Wells Fargo CEO John Stumpf about the bank’s policy on foreclosures.”
“Stumpf maintained that Wells Fargo has modified 700,000 loans and has forgiven $4 billion of shareholder capital to keep people in their homes. ‘I get it,’ he said. ‘There is a lot of pain.’ ‘It’s not pain. It’s exploitation,’ responded Kershnar, adding that the bank intentionally gave out loans to homeowners, knowing that those loans would fail.”
“Joe Ray’s neighbors came to his defense after the bank foreclosed on the home he’s lived in for 60 years. Ray, 70, recently took on Chase Bank and lost. After trying for eight months to get a loan modification on the Flagstaff home where he’s lived since he was 11, the bank foreclosed. Ray got into trouble with his mortgage not because he took cash out of his home, rather, he told us that along the way he decided to refinance with an adjustable rate loan. When that rate spiked, he said, the trouble began.”
“‘I grew up in a time when we all trusted our bankers,’ Joe Ray told 3 On Your Side.”
“Even in the Darwinian world of real estate, there are limits to what is considered socially acceptable, agents said. While neon-red placards declaring ‘Bank Owned!’ might be a way to entice a bargain-hunter on the mainland, such fire-sale tactics are frowned upon in southern New Jersey’s wealthiest enclaves. ‘I’ve never seen a foreclosure sign in Cape May,’ said Dagmer Chew, the broker and owner at Homestead Real Estate in Cape May. ‘I’ve never used a foreclosure sign. I think it would not be a nice thing to do if it was in someone’s neighborhood.’”
“Chew recalls a recent sale of a distressed property for $600,000 in a neighborhood surrounded by nearly identical homes that sold for $1 million. ‘Everyone in the neighborhood lost $400,000 in comps,’ she said. ‘It’s not fair to them.’”
“Helen Hanna Casey, whose Pittsburgh-based company is the nation’s fourth-largest real estate firm, illustrates the divide with a binder of designer paint swatches that sits on her desk. Many customers, even at lower price levels, are expecting not only granite countertops, but homes decorated in those dreamy hues. Many of those expectations, she said, are the remnants of the pre-recession housing bubble that set expectations high and prices even higher in many parts of the country.”
“If the local market does face a challenge, Casey said, it’s likely the smaller-than-normal inventory of homes on the market. Homeowners that might want to sell or trade up seem to be sitting on their hands. ‘People are afraid they aren’t going to get the price they want,’ Casey said.”
“The era when large second homes are the economic driver for Pitkin County’s economy is likely a thing of the past, the former senior demographer for Colorado told local officials. ‘The dominance in the economy of the super-rich and the large second homes is likely to weaken significantly,’ Jim Westkott said in an informal meeting with the Pitkin County Commissioners, Aspen City Council and planners with both governments.”
“A 2004 study the Northwest Colorado Council of Governments determined that second-home construction and homeowner spending accounted for 41 percent of the 19,204 jobs in Pitkin County. The boom in the second-home market went bust after the recession hit in October 2008. ‘The people that were a very big part of your market lost a lot of money,’ Westkott said.”
“Aspen mayor Mick Ireland, a disciple of Westkott’s, challenged his mentor’s core assumption. Ireland said he’s not convinced Aspen and Pitkin County is looking at a ‘new world order or a new normal.’ ‘We could easily see another speculative bubble,’ Ireland said.”
“This acre of dirt is rich in history. It was the figurative summit of the city’s frenzied condominium boom of the 2000s, and ground zero for the bust stemming from the financial crisis in 2008. But most important, One Bloor East stands—or, rather, just lies there, for the moment—as an emblem of Toronto’s unkillable condo market. For that bust was quickly reversed by a stunning resurgence, despite a punishing recession.”
“On Nov. 13, 2007, hundreds of people line up on the sidewalk for the opening of the neighbouring sales office for One Bloor East. Many of those in line are stand-ins, hired by real estate agents, and they’ve been waiting in line for days. Just before the office is due to open, the crowd groans as sales staff hike the range of condo prices advertised on a sign outside—$300,000 to $2 million becomes $500,000 to $8 million. Agents squawk into cellphones to their head offices or clients overseas, then barge in and place orders anyway.”
“Now jump to the summer of 2009. Condo sales in Toronto have plummeted by more than half. The next scene is set on March 24, 2010. It’s a low-key party for select real estate agents being held by Great Gulf to open its sales office for One Bloor East. ‘We aren’t opening to create lineups,’ declares Bruce Freeman, Great Gulf’s executive VP of sales and marketing. The company doesn’t have to; it has already sold almost 85% of its 693 units.”
“The average new condo in Toronto now costs about $500 a square foot. That translates into about $250,000 for an entry-level one-bedroom of just over 500 square feet, and maybe twice that price or more in One Bloor or even ritzier downtown developments. Before monthly fees, that is. How did this happen? Is permanent condo mania the new reality? Or is the market headed for another crash—a real one this time?”
“Karen Martin, a lawyer in Vancouver, lived in a condo for 11 years before finally accepting that she wasn’t suited to the lifestyle. ‘When I bought the condo, I didn’t realize that you get no independence whatsoever when it comes to making decisions,’ says Martin. ‘If you’re in a minority in the group when something has to get done, such as painting, and you don’t like it, you have to suck it up.’ Martin was also shocked at how dirty some of her condo neighbours were. Some even let their pets pee in the building.”
“Ken Grunberg, who works in Toronto, found out too late that the unit he bought in 2007 wasn’t nearly as large as advertised. When he and his partner measured the area before replacing a linoleum floor, they discovered it wasn’t 700 square feet after all. ‘We trusted what the real estate agent said,’ says Grunberg. ‘But our condo is actually only 560 square feet if you don’t count the balcony and bathroom.’”
“Jonathan Reilly, president of English Bay Law Corp., in Vancouver, points out a nightmare scenario that happened in Vancouver a couple of years ago. Shortly after the financial crisis of 2008, prices for pre-construction condos in several markets fell abruptly, in some cases by 20%. In some cases, lenders withdrew the mortgage pre-approval, because the condo was now worth less than the loan amount. The harsh reality? Those buyers still had a legal obligation to buy the condo units at the price agreed to: if they walked away, they would not only lose their deposit, but the builders could sue for the difference in price, Reilly says. ‘If you have to pull out of a presale contract, you’re often out of luck. The magnitude of the losses can be huge.’”
“Spain’s unemployment rate jumped in the first quarter of this year to 21.3 per cent, a eurozone record and the country’s highest level since 1997, with more than 4.9 million people now out of work. The country is struggling to move from dependence on the construction sector - which supported growth for years until the financial crisis popped Spain’s property bubble - plus make the economy more competitive and reduce national debt.”
“In a working-class Madrid district yesterday, people waiting to sign up for benefit payments said they saw little hope of finding new jobs for years. Johnny Albuja, 29, was laid off from his job cleaning offices when the company he worked for lost a contract, but only expected to get unemployment benefits for three months since he worked for the company for just one year. Over the past year, his father and brother had also been laid off from a metal works company as demand plummeted.”
“‘The situation is really difficult right now,’ he said. ‘You can’t live well, you still have to pay the mortgage and it’s tough to get by.’”
“I was thumbing through the April 25 edition of Arkansas Business, and something caught my eye in the column about real estate transfers. The column focuses almost exclusively on higher value commercial and residential sales, as it did in this particular week. What was striking about the report was that all of the half-dozen homes — one at north of a million bucks and the others high into six figures — featured in the column had been sold for a loss. One of the six had been repossessed by the lending institution, which ate $150,000 in the foreclosure and re-sale.”
“So much for the high end, by Arkansas standards. By the index of celebrity, out-of-state property, well, there are problems there, too. A nugget of a headline on my Internet homepage led me to spend a few minutes eyeing the real estate travails of some of the best-known names in entertainment. For example, actor Pierce Brosnan had been trying to sell a Malibu, Calif., pad for $3.9 million, and it didn’t move, nor is it moving at $3.5 million. Michael Jackson’s sister, Latoya, is in foreclosure. Scarlett Johansson paid $7 milion in 2004 and sold last year for $3 million. Nicholas Cage is belly up on a number of properties. Near Nashville, singer Sheryl Crow paid $4.5 million for a nice little spread that didn’t meet the reserve price of $1 million when she tried to auction it. And on and on and on.”
“Now, the mid-range, as it were. The wonderful lady next door decided last autumn that, as an empty-nester with new, titanium knees, she shouldn’t bother with stairs any longer. She purchased a condo and said her good-byes, except she’s back every few days or so to make certain the ‘For sale’ sign is still up. She listed her house for a certain price, then cut it, and when it didn’t move she had the carpets replaced and interior and exterior painting done. When it still didn’t sell, she cut the price again. She’s still waiting.”
“For about 16 of the 19 years we’ve lived in our home we watched ‘For sale’ signs go up on our street, only to see ‘Sold’ strips pasted across them within a week. A few houses away from us, a neighbor took down her sign after several months. Two others, not including the lady next door, have been angling to sell their homes for almost as long.”
“‘If you want a fast sale, you almost have to agree to give it away,’ said my pal, Bruce Lindeman, an economics professor at UALR.”
‘For about 16 of the 19 years we’ve lived in our home we watched ‘For sale’ signs go up on our street, only to see ‘Sold’ strips pasted across them within a week’
And this in Arkansas. When I read stuff like this, I am reminded of what the first question about the housing bubble should be; when did it start?
Anyhoo, thanks everybody. Please check back this weekend for news, market observations and your topics.
I have a lingering memory of the hairdresser who cut my hair about five years ago, while sharing tales of investing in Arkansas real estate with me. I’d be willing to pay her exorbitant fee one more time, just to get her to start jawboning about how that all worked out for her.
“‘People are afraid they aren’t going to get the price they want,’ Casey said.”
Because there’s a whole army of you trying to make sure they don’t.
Spain’s unemployment rate jumped in the first quarter of this year to 21.3 per cent,
Unless we stop the massive offshoring , this is what our future looks like. And its a lot closer than most people think.
What does Spain mean by their unemployment number?
If we measured the way they did in the US during the Great Depression, some say we’d beat those numbers already, no contest.
21% IS about the real number for us.
“It’s not pain. It’s exploitation,’ responded Kershnar, adding that the bank intentionally gave out loans to homeowners, knowing that those loans would fail.”
Right, the banks expected to eventually force a sale at a higher price, pocketing lots of fees and then relending again.
But the borrower expected to make out on the deal the same way, which is why they wanted to overpay for the house to begin with.
So instead of shareing the gain, they are fighting over the pain — and trying to shift it to the uninvolved.
‘I grew up in a time when we all trusted our bankers,’
Ahh yes…. victimology wrapped in sanctimonious sentimentality. It doesn’t get any more rich than that.
And “we”? Who is this we? And when did “we” trust the thugs at the bank? Theyve always been thugs and always will be.
Spare me you slave.
‘Ray, 70, recently took on Chase Bank and lost. After trying for eight months to get a loan modification on the Flagstaff home where he’s lived since he was 11, the bank foreclosed. Ray got into trouble with his mortgage not because he took cash out of his home, rather, he told us that along the way he decided to refinance with an adjustable rate loan. When that rate spiked, he said, the trouble began.’
He lived there for 60 years, but he didn’t take cash out? What did he do with the money? And what’s a 70 YO doing with a loan anyway?
And he probably didn’t pay a whole lot of money (in today’s dollars) for the house 60 years ago. Why did he have to refinance the loan? His original mortgage payment probably wasn’t a whole lot. I suspect that, as usual, something is missing in this story.
Exactly BJ. This boo hooing is an epidemic among that generation. Of course he didn’t detail *why* he borrowed the money because it incriminates him, thus his boo hooing is completely ineffective for the media.
He got a lot of press here. But no one asked these simple questions. For a while now, I’ve mentioned to anyone who’d listen that an astounding number of the local foreclosures are from multiple, cash-out refinancing. I wonder why the local paper doesn’t ask me about this case?
question on the serial cash-out refiers. Is it true that if one cashed out on their mortgage and then blows up, that even in a non-recourse state, the mortgage becomes a full-recourse obligation? Thanks in advance.
Yes Dan, as i understand it, if someone gets cash out than the bank can come after them after a foreclosure for the defeciency. Its sortta like if someone took cash out and bought a “rental” from that money and than moved into the rental and stopped paying the mortgage on the primary - this may also constitute a crime - i think.
Precisely my questions. It’s hard to feel bad for this particular victim story. That house should have been long paid off. I don’t get it.
It should have been paid off by his PARENTS, since he’s lived there since he was 11. Yah RIGHT he didn’t ‘cash out’ of the house.
Shove it up your a$$ old man. You took the money, you sold the house to the bank, now take a hike.
SCHWEET! you said it for me.
but…he’s lived there since he was eweven!
That might be a little harsh, but we just don’t know the facts. With all the media attention, couldn’t they dig a bit into the story?
For instance; ‘Joe Ray said his note on the house with fees and penalties was about $165,000. After auction it’s listed for $99,000.’
OK, so maybe he bought the house from his family and borrowed the money to do that. But what year was it? And did he refi later?
This from an article I posted earlier this week:
http://www.azdailysun.com/news/local/article_d55c2629-c33a-5968-bcca-4533f50d8a91.html
‘Ray says that while he worked for more than a year with one part of Chase to get caught up on his mortgage, another was secretly preparing to foreclose, finally refusing to accept the last check that would have made him current.’
I can’t see Chase taking a $65k loss while refusing the ‘last check that would have made him current.’
Something doesn’t add up. IMO, the media would be serving the readers better to point out a cautionary tale of poor decision making and borrowing. If they want to get on the lenders case, why not ask why they were loaning this kind of money to someone at that age?
refusing to accept the last check that would have made him current.
This has been popping up a lot lately — where the FB is “making payments” or “is current” on the mortgage but the house is still foreclosed. What’s going on? If the FB is current, then why is he trying to refi, why is there an NOD, why is there a foreclosure? Are those current payments the lowered HAMP version, and the bank is getting ready to foreclose because they know there’s a balloon a-comin’?
And of course the entire time, the FB blames the bank for not granting the re-fi that they were entitled to. Looks to me like a lot of people got a reset on the mortgage and didn’t figure it out until too late.
From watching the video, he certainly didn’t put any money into improving the house. Although I notice they were careful not to show the inside.
At one point they show our friend Joe putting his dog into a fairly big white truck…
Hey, wait a minute. This guy was born just before the Baby Boom. And he was probably born to parents who went through the Depression.
I know from having parents who were born right before the Great Crash that people did not trust banks. That’s where all the jokes about hiding money in the mattress came from. People actually did that back then.
Hey, I still do.
We should alway preface this with…If he took out $100K for an operation to save his or his kids life, then we as a caring society should either forgive the loan or not collect on it, till he dies….
What did he do with the money? And what’s a 70 YO doing with a loan anyway?
Ben
I read the articles. It seems he borrowed money to invest in his upholstery business. He is now living in a motorhome with only his dog, and yet it appears he is wearing a wedding ring. After taking out the loan, it says he became seriously ill and had to close the business for a while until his son came and helped and then they were returning to their feet when Chase moved in.
From what the bank will take, $100,000, one has to assume that less than that was the original principal. This sounds like a home equity loan of about $60,000. A one shot loan, not a serial refier.
That size of loan would be required to purchase the newer CNC type equipment needed by an upholsterer to be competitive in that type of business today.
He also appears to have a military bearing (one never loses that). Someone annoited Ray as an unofficial mayor suggesting he has done a lot of good for his community. His neighbours are rallying to his support.
I agree that we have to pay our debts. Life is not free.
My take on this is that Chase IS the culprit here. Dual tracking should be illegal ! Why didn’t veterans affairs help him deal with Chase? He did appear to be paying his mortgage from my reading of the article.
Another point - he did not appear to borrow money to help him with his “serious medical condition” and it is obvious that he has lost his wife. How much money did he spend on doctors during her illness because a guy in a small business like that would have had very little insurance, if any. I think he blew his savings helping his dying wife.
My point is that I agree with you. The MSM have got to do a much better job of reporting and be fair and critical of anyone breaking the law - and not afraid to say so in print.
Chase Bank should be hung, drawn, and quartered for their oppressive behaviour just one week before Christmas.
“Chew recalls a recent sale of a distressed property for $600,000 in a neighborhood surrounded by nearly identical homes that sold for $1 million. ‘Everyone in the neighborhood lost $400,000 in comps,’ she said. ‘It’s not fair to them.’”
Sure its fair, they made a bad business decision and purchased a producted for a price that was inflated and not sustainable.
This story is funny. Let’s not put up ‘bank owned’ signs and no one will know we have foreclosures. Does Chew think somebody is going to pay $400k more cuz they hide the signs?
We have some state legislators here in IL who seem to think they will. And surprise, surprise, the representatives floating the idea of not allowing “distressed” sales to be used to set comps - all have REIC backgrounds.
Victims, Victims, everywhere and no more cash out ref-fi I think!
And now the MSM is telling them they should leverage their future labor - now that the house equity well ran dry.
“It’s my money and I want it now - nation”
Many of these took money out of their home equity and then used that to set up small business’s. It made the economy look better than it was and added to the commercial real estate bubble. Now their business is wiped out, their home is in foreclosure and the future is pretty scary.
I used to get two or three of those letter a week telling me how much I could borrow. I did not drink that koolaid.
I thought small businesses were developed with sweat equity and it’s only after business develops that capital is borrowed?
Ooops… I nearly forgot. You must borrow $80k for the truck and a trailer full of lawn mowers first.
Too bad it’s easier to finance a business idea than it is to run a business. (or even come up with a truly viable business plan to begin with.)
The needed to have new equipment because they wanted to be respectable. And because their banker was willing to lend them the money. (And they were stupid)
You could replace the word “equipment” with franchise. I have seen them come and go here. Dunkin Donuts, Dairy Queen, the sub sandwich place that toasts the bun, a hot dog place, all gone under.
Leaving a lease unpaid plus a bank loan.
Many of these took money out of their home equity and then used that to set up small business’s. It made the economy look better than it was and added to the commercial real estate bubble. Now their business is wiped out, their home is in foreclosure and the future is pretty scary.
One of my photography mentors is named Leslie Burns. If you’re so inclined, give her Burns Auto Parts site a look. It’s a real hoot.
Anyway, Leslie periodically thumps the tub about not borrowing against the house to finance one’s photography business. In fact, she’s pretty adamant on this point.
I remember my mom getting letters like that when I was in high school in the late ’80s. We lived in a poor neighborhood, so maybe it started earlier there. At 17 it sounded great to me: “Mommy, they’ve sent you a check for $20,000!” That sounded like a million dollars to me since we didn’t even have cable or color tv. She had to sit down and explain to me why it was nothing but a trap. I’m grateful to this day that I grew up learning to live on what I earned and to avoid debt. And I knew not to bite when the bubble came, even though by then I had the money (precisely because I knew how to live within my now much greater means).
Melba Amaral and her husband had defaulted on their mortgage and were in danger of losing the Kalihi Valley home they had lived in for 15 years. ‘You imagine burning your house. Thinking, ‘okay, you want my house? Then I’ll burn it down,’ Melba Amaral said. ‘But the only problem here was that you never knew when you were going to get that eviction notice.’”
Well, that and going to jail for arson…
MELBA’S toast.
“‘I grew up in a time when we all trusted our bankers,’ Joe Ray told 3 On Your Side.”
I bet you also grew up in a time when people PAID BACK their loans.
60 years in a house and he blew it.
I have had friends do that. They need to buy something or do something and they take a loan against real estate. My feeling is just put it on a credit card. They can’t foreclose on your house over a credit card payment.
“Chew recalls a recent sale of a distressed property for $600,000 in a neighborhood surrounded by nearly identical homes that sold for $1 million. ‘Everyone in the neighborhood lost $400,000 in comps,’ she said. ‘It’s not fair to them.’”
Fair gots nothing to do with it (said in my best Clint Eastwood voice)
$300,000 to $2 million becomes $500,000 to $8 million. Agents squawk into cellphones to their head offices or clients overseas, then barge in and place orders anyway.”
Dear gawd. And these fools still bought on the “greater fool” theory.
Seen some of this gold and silver recently.
“‘If you want a fast sale, you almost have to agree to give it away,’ said my pal, Bruce Lindeman, an economics professor at UALR.”
New game.
Everyone does a shot of JD when you hear that!
Just give it away.
Just give it away.
That is what they do with time shares now. I read last week that there is a website you can go to and just give away your time share and be guaranteed they won’t keep billing you.
That will be next for these condo’s. A place to just give them away.
I have seen some timeshares that are not even worth the “maintenance fees”
I am sure there are plenty of condo not even worth the price of HOA fees
Hi from Phoenix
It has been sometime since I have posted from Phoenix. I was down by the Cardinal and Coyotte Stadiums last week talking with an insured company. (I work for an insurance company) All around the stadiums, there are hundreds of condos that were selling for 300K to 400K during the boom years. The guy I meet with works at the Radisson Hotel and told me the condo’s were empty - few lights on at night. Also, there is a chance that the Hockey team may move back to Canada next year. He told me if that happens there will be businesses that will go under in the area. The whole area will be effected. The condo’s will be worth even less.
The insurance company I work for insureds a lot of small contractors and I am not seeing any improvement in construction activity or jobs.
Hey, Golfer! Slim from Tucson says hi.
Last October, I was visiting a friend in Peoria, AZ. At the end of our visit, she drove me to Sky Harbor so I could fly to the Midwest for a get-together with a family member.
En route to the airport, we passed by the Cardinals stadium. And I was shocked at the number of see-through office complexes right by the freeway.
Furthermore, my friend’s neighborhood had quite a few foreclosures.
“A binder of designer paint swatches.”
You can tell I’m out of it. I had no idea there was such a thing as designer paint. Are there gold flecks in it?
Each year new colors are “in”.
Yet these buyers wanted to make interest payments for 30 years to pay for their color choices.
snake charmer
The new colors are “in” thanks to firms like Pantone that get women to follow what’s new. They recycle colors by renaming them, and presto, they show up in textiles for clothing and home furnishings, paints, etc… Pantone and others create demand each season. The sheeples buy into it. (Sorry, my Shopping Ctr Mgmt School knowledge is ingrained.)
“Joe Ray’s neighbors came to his defense after the bank foreclosed on the home he’s lived in for 60 years. Ray, 70, recently took on Chase Bank and lost. After trying for eight months to get a loan modification on the Flagstaff home where he’s lived since he was 11, the bank foreclosed. Ray got into trouble with his mortgage not because he took cash out of his home, rather, he told us that along the way he decided to refinance with an adjustable rate loan. When that rate spiked, he said, the trouble began.”
Maybe I am missing something, but if he had a mortgage on a house he has lived in for 60 years, didn’t he by definition “take cash out of his home”?
OBL has been dead for at least 10 years. This is an epic scam and shows the desperation of the media and the government to foist yet another scam on the American people and the world. One problem. We now know about Al-Qaeda and how it was manufactured by the CIA. We all know about Tim Osman aka OBL and 911 and the illegal wars it has fomented. This pathetic attempt to distract us from the encroaching police state, the genocide unfolding in Libya and the dollar sliding into oblivion is so obvious to me..
The burden of proof for this hilarioudps conspiracy theory is on you.
That’s some good acid…
Need a replacement for the “missing” birth certificate do we?
“For example, actor Pierce Brosnan had been trying to sell a Malibu, Calif., pad for $3.9 million, and it didn’t move, nor is it moving at $3.5 million. Michael Jackson’s sister, Latoya, is in foreclosure. Scarlett Johansson paid $7 milion in 2004 and sold last year for $3 million. Nicholas Cage is belly up on a number of properties. Near Nashville, singer Sheryl Crow paid $4.5 million for a nice little spread that didn’t meet the reserve price of $1 million when she tried to auction it. And on and on and on.”
Stupid is as stupid does in matters of real estate investment, no matter how otherwise rich or successful the investor is.
Suggested title for post-real estate bubble collapse reality TV show:
“Real estate investing with the stars”
Has a nice ring to it, no?
PB:
Ok these peeps are still working bringin lots more money probably each week then i make in a year…so why don’t they just live there for the next 30 years?
or did Sheryl buy her spread with 3% down?????