The Housing Bubble

For the most part I think the people who serve in the military do it for the right reasons (service to the country) and politicians do things for the wrong reasons (money and power).

Plus positive infinity! Right on, jeff!

“The VA appears to be improving under Shinseki.”

Improving? They’re the top-rated health care system in the country. Turns out the government can provide some damn good health care coverage after all:

Washington Monthly
“An answer came in 2003, when the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine published a study that compared veterans health facilities on 11 measures of quality with fee-for-service Medicare. On all 11 measures, the quality of care in veterans facilities proved to be “significantly better.”

“Here’s another curious fact. The Annals of Internal Medicine recently published a study that compared veterans health facilities with commercial managed-care systems in their treatment of diabetes patients. In seven out of seven measures of quality, the VA provided better care.

“It gets stranger. Pushed by large employers who are eager to know what they are buying when they purchase health care for their employees, an outfit called the National Committee for Quality Assurance today ranks health-care plans on 17 different performance measures. These include how well the plans manage high blood pressure or how precisely they adhere to standard protocols of evidence-based medicine such as prescribing beta blockers for patients recovering from a heart attack. Winning NCQA’s seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose this year’s winner is: Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the VHA system outperforms the highest rated non-VHA hospitals.

Wow, you’re right, we should cheer cuz our govt is doing such a great job of running hospitals:

‘As of Friday, 4,454 American servicemen and women have been killed in Iraq; 1,595 in Afghanistan. That doesn’t seem like a lot when you consider the more than 58,000 dead in Vietnam and over 415,000 killed in World War II, but we know that today’s singular medical capabilities have allowed for tens of thousands of soldiers and Marines to live today who wouldn’t have made it off the battlefield 40 years ago. Let’s just say it’s been a war of a hundred thousand casualties.’

‘the number of casualties among U.S soldiers is on the rise (for one, U.S soldiers are experiencing more amputations due to IED blasts year-over-year in Afghanistan), as are Afghan civilian casualties…Last Memorial Day weekend one headline blared, “2010 On Track to Be Deadliest Year for U.S. Forces in Almost Nine-Year-Long Afghanistan War.’

‘In November 2003, eight months after the Iraq invasion, I wrote a story about homeless veterans in which Rick Weidman, a lobbyist for Vietnam Veterans of America, told me ‘we are simply not prepared to deal with the mental problems … at a healthy rate,’ while the VA insisted it was building capacity to serve what was expected to be a rush of new vets into the system.’

‘In September 2004, Sue Bailey, a former assistant secretary of defense for health affairs, told me that “we are not prepared for the body count we are seeing, mental health or otherwise.” Weidman, again, said, “the VA is not geared up and the DoD is not geared up. That’s why some of us have been talking, and you are going to see a major front of veterans saying we need this fixed and we need this fixed now.’

‘Around Memorial Day 2004, the Army released a study that said one in eight of its returning soldiers were reporting symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. In February of the next year, the VA said one in four of its Afghan and Iraq veterans were being treated for mental health disorders.’

‘By Memorial Day 2008, Bush Administration officials were saying that more than half of the 300,000 veterans treated at the VA so far had some sort of mental health condition. In September 2009, researchers were predicting that 35 percent of returning veterans could be diagnosed with PTSD in the coming years. Meanwhile, the suicide rate among veterans is about 6,000 a year, a rate veterans organizations say is at “epidemic proportions” and “out of control.” According to a report last week, the VA’s suicide hotline logged a record 14,000 calls in April alone.’

‘on May 10, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that “unchecked incompetence” by the Department of Veterans Affairs has led to poor mental health care and slow processing of disability claims for veterans? Thus, the majority wrote (.pdf), the VA was violating veterans’ Constitutional right to care in return for their service.’

‘Seems that “gearing up” of capacity at the VA never happened. Veterans of Common Sense and Veterans United for Truth filed the lawsuit against the VA in 2008, alleging that due to backlogs, waiting lists and inadequate services, “hundreds of thousands of men and women who have suffered grievous injuries fighting in the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are being abandoned.”

Paul Sullivan, executive director of VCS, told Antiwar that their work was far from over. For one, they must see that the court ruling has a practical effect on the VA health care system. Past experience proves it won’t be easy: he acknowledges that it’s been a long ten years of banging on doors and running into the same old walls.

“I was on CNN in 2006. At the time, the number of (Iraq and Afghan) patients at the VA was 200,000. I said it would hit 400,000 and (CNN host) John Roberts looked at me as though I had a horse with wings and had just flown in from fairy land,” said Sullivan. “We are now at the rate of 10,000 patients a month; we are at 650,000 as of December 2010.” He predicts 1 million patients by 2014, and “more than 50 percent will be mental health patients” with a total cost of $1 trillion to meet all the health care and benefits over a lifetime. The war, he said, is “costing a fortune.’

”You know what?” he said when asked about the prospects for prolonged war overseas, “ bring the troops home and take care of them. We will not abandon our veterans again, no, no, no, no, no.’

http://original.antiwar.com/vlahos/2011/05/29/memorial-day-in-wartime/

What is so great about all this?

Eventually only the top 5% will be able to afford insurance or heathcare as its delivered and provided today.

Something has to give.

To be fair a sudden surge in war injuries and mental health disorders would put a strain on any system.

another point is that the VA provides this care for a fraction of the cost.

The VA does not provide care equally. POWs and those injured in action are treated differently.

but we know that today’s singular medical capabilities have allowed for tens of thousands of soldiers and Marines to live today who wouldn’t have made it off the battlefield 40 years ago ??

Exactly Ben….The headlines are always on the KIA….Times this by the thousands for military (particularly young men) that have been damaged psychologically for the remainder of their life…

Also notice the dates on all those reports…

‘a sudden surge’?

These wars have now dragged on longer than any in US history. And our govt is doing everything they can to stay.

‘another point is that the VA provides this care for a fraction of the cost’

Next time you see a young GI amputee somewhere, remind him or her about that.

‘the suicide rate among veterans is about 6,000 a year’

Just think about that last one.

The VA can’t stop a war. They just treat veterans. And they do it cheaper and better than for-profit hospitals.

‘the suicide rate among veterans is about 6,000 a year” ??

What about the divorce rate ?? The drug abuse rate ?? The alcohol abuse rate ?? The anger management rate ?? The un. & under employment rate ??

Obama pulled 100,000 troops out of Iraq in the past two years. How is that “doing everything they can to stay?”

Should not have been there in the first place but I guess that another issue…

It’s a damned sad commentary on the state of American medicine when the VA offers better health care than our civilian hospital system. Either the standard of care has risen dramatically over the last decade, or the rest of us are skewered beyond measure.

Perhaps things have changed since I last volunteered there, but the Westwood VA was always the last step before skidrow– and a handy supplier of medical “volunteers” for all the foreign graduates to practice (literally,) their technical skills and new modlaities upon. If THAT’s what we’re aiming for, heavens help us all.

Yowch.

Having a wife in the whole MD residency program gave me a lot of insight in these things.

1) The VA is one of the primary avenues for residency programs to send their students to for training. This DRASTICALLY lowers the effective cost of healthcare for the facility. While marginally increasing the “accident” rate.. Most med students and residents do an amazing job. OTOH, most people in the general pop (civis) have a higher resistance to having med students and residents performing procedures on them. I’d guess something like 80-90% of VA’s have med students and residents, while probably only 40-50% of hospitals have med students and/or residents.

Maybe that’s a good thing, maybe it’s a bad thing, but remember, if you DON’T want to be a guinea pig for a med student, you better pray that some form of private healthcare stays around. I have heard of LOTS of botched procedures that required extra patient followup or did permanent damage at the hands of poor med students/residents. Again, this is firsthand from my wife who has been present/observing during some of these procedures.
Again, OTOH, properly supervised and motivated med students and residents that are the majority are majorly providing high quality outcomes at drastically reduced costs. They are willing to do this because they can get out and make 5-10 times as much in private hospitals… What happens if you take that away by making healthcare public? Nobody really knows, but I doubt the residents & med students would work for the same current pittance.
Since my wife is an MD I know lots of other MD’s I’ve asked what the main cost drivers are. A pain management doc told me he loves to tell patients how much things cost as he’s performing procedures. For instance, needles for flacette injections, which probably cost around 20 cents to manufacture, are purchased by his practice for about $15 each. As he points this out to his patients, they gasp more from the price than from the injections. Basically, the extra 14.80 is paying for a lot of safety monitoring and regulation. The doc says, the regulation and procedure probably is keeping us marginally safer. But the extra cost associated with that safety…. we’re definitely paying for it… Other countries just source their med supplies from US companies, skip a lot of US safety checking, and benefit from the strict US quality control without paying for all of the US regulation. In other words, the demand for quality in the US is subsidizing quality in many other countries. It seems like this is the case in drugs, manufacturing, and a host of other areas as well.

Finally, when asked about the claim that liability reform was only a minor issue, this doc just laughed and said, “typical lawyers”. Liability insurance is HIGH to ASTRONOMICAL. It IS a problem. Then he laughed again and reminded me that all these countries we are holding up as models for Universal healthcare are basically going bankrupt…

As of Friday, 4,454 American servicemen and women have been killed in Iraq; 1,595 in Afghanistan. That doesn’t seem like a lot when you consider the more than 58,000 dead in Vietnam and over 415,000 killed in World War II, but we know that today’s singular medical capabilities have allowed for tens of thousands of soldiers and Marines to live today who wouldn’t have made it off the battlefield 40 years ago. Let’s just say it’s been a war of a hundred thousand casualties.’

Wow. Interesting angle. I wonder what the injury numbers are, for this war versus Vietnam, Korea and WWII.

mathguy-
Great insight. Thank you. When I decide to have some “youth restoring surgery”, I plan to use a medical tourism company and go to South America for it, as many Plastic Surgeons down there are U.S. trained. It would be interesting to hear what your wife has to say about my plans?

A gal who works at Kaiser went to Argentina and she looks fantastic. But only one data point.

It is a risk reward scenario. What are you going to do if something goes wrong with your procedure? How much of a discount is that worth to you? For instance, with a boob job, the implants need to settle into pockets over the course of a few months. Are you going to stay down there during that period, or travel back for follow up care? Those risks can be mitigated, just remember to think of them and plan accordingly instead of just traipsing off to Brazil for a tuck and lift and planning on coming home to heal. Especially consider your friends and family support network and who will bring you ice packs as you recover if you are away from home.

mathguy- Give us a link to back up your assertions. ‘I heard it from my wife’ is as lame as they come.

Are you saying VA hospitsals use more residents than other hospitals? Prove it.

And how does your wife explain this:

“Winning NCQA’s seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose this year’s winner is: Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the VHA system outperforms the highest rated non-VHA hospitals. ”
Washington Monthly

How would they win these awards with residents making mistakes all the time?

Perhaps because your points are unsourced anecdotal bull$hit?

Holy cow, mathguy! How would wifey ’splain this? (And who knows what else she’s lying to you about?)

Time Magazine
“Until the early 1990s, care at VA hospitals was so substandard that Congress considered shutting down the entire system and giving ex-G.I.s vouchers for treatment at private facilities. Today it’s a very different story. The VA runs the largest integrated health-care system in the country, with more than 1,400 hospitals, clinics and nursing homes employing 14,800 doctors and 61,000 nurses. And by a number of measures, this government-managed health-care program–socialized medicine on a small scale–is beating the marketplace. For the sixth year in a row, VA hospitals last year scored higher than private facilities on the University of Michigan’s American Customer Satisfaction Index, based on patient surveys on the quality of care received. The VA scored 83 out of 100; private institutions, 71. Males 65 years and older receiving VA care had about a 40% lower risk of death than those enrolled in Medicare Advantage, whose care is provided through private health plans or HMOs, according to a study published in the April edition of Medical Care. Harvard University just gave the VA its Innovations in American Government Award for the agency’s work in computerizing patient records.

And all that was achieved at a relatively low cost. In the past 10 years, the number of veterans receiving treatment from the VA has more than doubled, from 2.5 million to 5.3 million, but the agency has cared for them with 10,000 fewer employees. The VA’s cost per patient has remained steady during the past 10 years. The cost of private care has jumped about 40% in that same period.

mathguy
The boob job is behind me (twice). My husband did it for “himself” a long time ago. LOL .I’m doing my face & neck. In the business world, having an aging face is a liability. I truly appreciated your feedback. With good medical tourism, you’re there an extra week for observation, btw.

Thanks for the propaganda from your sponsor, mathguy.

“Then he laughed again and reminded me that all these countries we are holding up as models for Universal healthcare are basically going bankrupt…”

Maybe, but not from their health care, which is cheaper than ours- and better. And unlike your load, that’s a proven truth.

Good post Ben, but you are blaspheming the religion of alot of the posters here. Never criticize Jesus in Church, or government healthcare in the HBB!

Kevin Costner?

Nice one.

LOL…

Anarchy is underrated.

It would have had the singular benefit of insuring that the idjits that caused the problems bear most of the pain.

What we have now is “business as usual” among the Wall Street/Beltway/Top 5% crowd, a few trillion dollars added to the liability side of Uncle Sam’s balance sheet, speculators running up prices on the only investments they haven’t already screwed up (commodities), and Main Street continuing to crumble.

All this “if Wall Street goes down, so does the economy” BS is just that. At minimum, they could have taken all the money loaned/given/printed to bale out the banks/Fannie/AIG, and started a few, regional, temporary “Banks of USA” to finance genuine investment and business activity, for a period of (say) 3 years, then sold them via IPO.

“It would have had the singular benefit of insuring that the idjits that caused the problems bear most of the pain.”

If I thought that were the case, I might have favored letting it all fail. But the mega-rich have money overseas, in gold, in hedge funds, etc. They have walled estates, private islands, armored cars, ocean-going yachts, and jet planes. They have private militias.

They weren’t gonna feel the pain- they were gonna profit from it. Probably more so than they’re profiting now.

They would have survived far better than our civil liberties would have. The Kochtopus quickly displayed their ‘minuteman’ militias early on in the crisis. They weren’t there to defend civil liberties, as their rattlesnake flags imply. They were there to show that the rich could field an army (of idiots, admittedly) if their wealth and position was in any way seriously threatened. And Blackwater is always available to the highest bidder- I wonder who that would be? (Hint- not us)

But here’s the deal with their “private armies”……

I fix their escape plans. And their plane might be AOG when they need it most. Theoretically, you could me 5 minutes alone with any airplane, and it ain’t going anywhere for 4-5 days…….from the time another mech gets there to troubleshoot the problem.

And this assumes that they can actually get another mech to the hangar. And he knows what he’s doing. And he feels motivated to fix an airplane so the banksters can avoid the mess they had a big hand in creating.

(Disclaimer: If caught, I’d be in violation of FAA rules. Assuming they figured out what I did, and I made it overt. And assuming that the Feds won’t have more important fish to fry.)

X-GS, I can easily see you in 1795 Paris as the guy operating the guillotine. With Alpha and measton taking turns sitting in a rocking chair nearby, knitting.

“I fix their escape plans. And their plane might be AOG when they need it most. ”

Take note, richies. Your escape is not assured.

Because those people are agreeing to prices that most here don’t agree with. It’s their right to do with their money as they see fit. But their actions, along with those of enough others, are having SOME effect on keeping prices higher.

But their actions, along with those of enough others, are having SOME effect on keeping prices higher ??

Thats called the “Market Place”….You could say the same thing about cars…

In the housing market, like any other market, prices are decided by opinions among buyers and sellers. Just like buyers and sellers often times have different opinions, different opinions exist among buyers as well.

The opinion that prices are “too high” are expressed on this board all the time, but most never say what price they would consider affordable and fair. I see many say “with 10% unemployment and a huge shadow inventory, it’s crazy to buy a house in this market”. It’s possible that the US is spiraling downward to 3rd world status and that prices should go to zero, but let’s assume for a moment that this is just another recession and we manage to continue to kick the can down the road for the foreseeable future. In that environment, what is a “fair” price for a house? Are houses in any markets priced appropriately?

“Thats called the “Market Place””

By that logic, it was the “Market Place” in 2005 too. And people here do say the same about cars.

You asked why people are upset that others are buying houses. I don’t think HBBers are against others owning their own home in spite of cases like alpha’s where we challenge the reasons our friends are buying.

I think the root of the issue (it is for me, at least) is the feeling that prices would drop faster if less people bought. (Sellers would have to drop prices by larger amounts in order to sell). Frankly, I “feel safer” knowing I’m buying at a price point that makes sense, not only a monthly payment that does.

The “market” price will rarely reflect the “fundamental” price. Market prices are merely a matter of where opinions intersect. Doesn’t have to be based in reality.

Prices would absolutely drop faster if fewer people bought. That is true in any market. Prices fall when demand drops just like prices rise when demand increases. But most here took an Econ 101 class and already know this.

I’d still like to hear people’s thoughts on what price is “fair” or “low enough” in their market. Either a specific price or relative to something else (rent, etc). Or is any price too high while rates are so low? For those that want to buy, but feel current prices are still too high, what price are you holding out for?

“I’d still like to hear people’s thoughts on what price is “fair” or “low enough” in their market”

To me, my answer is relatively simple — when down payments are 20%, the government quits buying loans from the shysters, and normal underwriting returns. That should bring prices to their traditional ratios with rent and income (say around 1999-2000 when the charts started getting all out of whack). I would then be happy to buy.

To put it another way, at least in my area and price range, houses should fall at least another 10% before I’m even interested, and about another 20% before they’re back to pre-bubble levels more or less.

Thanks for the thoughts DebtinNation! So your primary concern is that you’re competing with other buyers in a fair lending market. Interesting way of looking at it.

I’m in Phoenix and current supply/demand has pushed prices back over a decade with much lower rates than they were back then. However, the relatively easy money is still available mostly through the FHA. 3.5% down and mediocre credit is perfectly acceptable. Have no idea if that will ever go away. Can also still do 5% down conventional with mortgage insurance if you have very good credit. That disappeared for awhile here when the market was in free fall a couple years ago. Seems even if the FHA money dried up mortgage insurance would have to go away to ever get back to 20% down. I believe mortgage insurance is 100% private so if it’s still around after the bloodbath I’m sure they took, I don’t see why it would disappear now.

The question is how long the DC area can hold on. Government is stagnating. The facts are settling in that promotions are not being offered, retirements are not looking so bad after all, retiring workers are not being replaced, contracts are not being renewed, and people are starting to tighten their belts and not buy as much retail. People here may stay where they are, or may move locally, but there is no more huge influx of people coming in.

There is no reason for house prices to rise, and every reason for them to drop.

I saw that also Bill….Emailed it to a few friends this morning…

We can’t live like this.

The Greek Prime Minister has just been accused by the Greek Parliament of treason for making a deal with the banks to give up all sovereignty of that country to the banks. (you read that right)

The CIA is warning of a Greek military coup in the very near future and you can bet they are going to tell the banks to take a flying leap.

100s of thousands are protesting there and in Spain over the austerity measures. Even the Brits are protesting with “enthusiasm.”

This is the kind of thing that lead wars. Big wars. World wars. WWII was at its heart, a war about austerity measures imposed on Germany after WWI.

100s of thousands are protesting there and in Spain over the austerity measures. Even the Brits are protesting with “enthusiasm.”

When the Brits get enthusiastic, look out. Just consider their behavior at soccer games as a case in point.

You are using the old paradigm definition of “investment”.

If you ain’t “leveraged”, you ain’t $heet….”

When the Brits get enthusiastic, look out. Just consider their behavior at soccer games as a case in point.

From what I have heard, “hooliganism” at soccer games is a thing of the past in the UK. One reason: their tickets prices have soared into the stratosphere. Another: Their stadiums are crawling with cops. I watch EPL games on the TV, and the crowds are pretty well behaved these days.

Maybe the hooligans have switched to more affordable 2nd and 3rd division (minor leagues) venues?

It’s merely moved to Eastern Europe.

How could one country tax an international gambling racket? I’d rather make it illegal, as in ordinary insurance fraud, to take out insurance on stuff that you do not own.

One of the English Maritime Acts in the 1700’s made that very practice illegal.

Seems there was more money to me made seeing that ships DIDN’T make their destinations.

300 years ago.

I like that idea, BlueStar. We could call it a “production” tax. If you deal in derivatives or microsecond trading, you obviously aren’t investing a company’s fundaments products and services; i.e. you aren’t being a productive member of society. And you should be taxed accordingly…

“you aren’t being a productive member of society. And you should be taxed accordingly…”

Sort of like; from each according to their abilities…?

No, more like “From each according to their pathology”

Well no, I was just turning on the phrase of who the “producers” were. A favorite debate on HBB.

Or they can buy electricity from nearby countries, like…France

I do not know if you meant to be funny or not.

But France currently makes about 80% of their electricity from nuclear power.

Does Japan sell electricity to other countries?

“Does Japan sell electricity to other countries?”

Iceland (another island country) sure would like to. There just needs to be found a cheap way of doing it.

(”doing it” = transporting the stuff, not making the stuff.)

difficult to transport geothermal, no? it’s sort of a local thing.

It would be efficient, in a Larry Summers kind of way, for the wealthiest countries to outsource their dirty electricity production to poor countries.

“difficult to transport geothermal, no? it’s sort of a local thing.”

If somebody discovers a cheap way to transport electrons for long distances under the oceans then there is going to be a very, very big economic shift.

Already happened, P-Bear. I saw some propaganda commercial how the US “uses its electricity more efficiently now than in the past.”

Well sure, it’s easy to do your work using less electricity if you export your production of steel and other manufacturing industries to China while your own country just runs a bunch of computers to make up money.

Banana: oh yes, I was being snarky all right.

I believe the polling indicates they already are sick of it. The question is when will the population being sick of it translate into the politicians doing something. I expect it will happen eventually, but the timing is pretty uncertain.

Shutting down the nuke plants is coming about because of protest from the population, so perhaps the time may be more at hand than is thought.

I wonder how big the protests will be during the rolling blackouts when energy costs have quadrupled.

“I wonder how big the protests will be during the rolling blackouts when energy costs have quadrupled.”

You forget that the Germans do not have our shoot from the hip “git ‘er done” mindset. I have little doubt that they are preparing plans to cover for the shut down plants.

Also, Germany has a lot of coal.

Incorrect. The German Prime Minister initiated the shutdown of the nuke plants in response to the Japanese disaster, but could not have done it without Parliament’s approval.

Most the plants were reaching the end of their lifespan and had already been scheduled for decommissioning so there were simply moved up on the schedule.

Might be a mistake to asume that nuclear actually reduces the demand for oil, or keeps oil cheaper. The Germans have a farther horizon view than most.

As for the Germans, while they feel they are carrying the rest of Europe on their back what is really happening is that the bulk of the Germans are carrying their bankers, who made a killing buying and selling sovereign debt but now have a problem collecting.

The Euro started off at $.80. Under German pressure, a strongly deflationary push over the last decade has nearly doubled the value of the Euro, leaving peripheral countries unable to keep their economies afloat without massive governmental borrowing and spending. The Greeks are not blameless, but their would have been a hell of a lot less Greek borrowing had Euro stayed at the value it started at.

Oh, and who were the douchebags who lent them so much of the money, forestalling this reconciliation until such a time as it destabilizes all of Europe?

When it comes to the household use of solar energy, Germany is way ahead of the United States. You’ll see a lot of solar rooftops in Germany.

“You’ll see a lot of solar rooftops in Germany.”

That’s because they’re commies. The can’t possibly pass the “True Purity” test for being real “capitalists” if they’re into renewable energy.

I wouldn’t call the Germans Commies, but they do tend to buy into the agenda of the country enthusiastically. If they are told they are all going to go solar, they do.

I wouldn’t call the Germans Commies, but they do tend to buy into the agenda of the country enthusiastically. If they are told they are all going to go solar, they do.

Yup, that’s the German identity for ya.

I have firsthand experience with this because my mother is of German descent. So was one of her very best friends.

This meant that I grew up in a house that didn’t just have to be clean. It had to be German clean.

I’ve noticed that, as my parents have gotten older, they’ve gotten more relaxed on the household cleanliness standards.

But my place? You guessed it. The Arizona Slim Ranch has to be German clean.

“If they are told they are all going to go solar, they do.”

Apparently the same applies for “walking sticks” too!

“But my place? You guessed it. The Arizona Slim Ranch has to be German clean.”

My wife is German (as in from Germany). When she cleans something … its CLEAN.

I know a guy who worked in Germany for a while. He told me that when the neighbors cleaned their cars, they removed the seats, in order to “vacuum the interior properly”.

When my in-laws first moved to the USA 30+ years ago they were shocked at how half assed everything is done here.

I know a guy who worked in Germany for a while. He told me that when the neighbors cleaned their cars, they removed the seats, in order to “vacuum the interior properly”.

Of course! How else are you going to get the vac into those spaces beneath the car seats?

LOL. I’m not normally a germaphobe, and I don’t know where I got it from, but spaces under car seats and cushioned restaurant seating give me the major heebeejeebies…it’s nasty what can lurk in those places.

Fire/Police are much like Medicare, untouchable.

They have learnt very well from Wallstreet and our esteemed CEOs.

“Not for this group;”

I did say that there were a few more smaller groups. Overpiad public servants belong to those smaller groups.

Also, while it is scandalous that very small groups (like Fire Captains) are overpaid, I think what we really need to focus more on are those Americans who make less than $500 a week, because if we don’t that group will continue to grow until its pretty much everyone.

The PTB bloviate about raising standards of living in the 3rd world, and then we start hearing about how now China is “too expensive”.

I guess they only want to raise them so far.

Too far and the populace starts thinking they have rights and stuff.

I don’t mind that the government of poor countries did something to “improve the lives of their people”.

What pizzes me off is that this “improvement” was planned, organized, lobbied for, tax breaked and financed by the banksters and top 5%ers who proclaim to be US citizens, to the detriment of working class slobs in the bottom 95%.

And protected with the full faith and power of the US Government and military; again, paid for by J6P, since he doesn’t have the tax shelters that companies and the top 5%ers have. (Remind me, how much Federal tax do the MNCs pay again?).

And protected with the full faith and power of the US … military; again, paid for by J6P

And staffed by J6P’s kids, who would otherwise be flipping burgers.

Apparently his case was thrown out and then reinstated. Key paragraph:

“Mr. Simkin’s suit rests on the doctrine of ‘mutual mistake,’ a well-established principle that allows for the cancellation of contracts, including divorce agreements, when both parties are innocently mistaken about an essential term. In a famous example, if a violinist sells another violinist what they believe to be a Stradivarius, and it turns out to be a cheap knockoff, they can void the contract.”

I agree with most of the commenters to the article — this “mistake” was NOT mutual. Steven made the mistake by keeping his money with Madoff. Laura did NOT make the mistake, and [combo alert!] took the cash instead — she knew that Strad was bum. And what if Madoff really hadn’t been a fraud and made profit? Could Laura sue Steven for the profits, the way that Steven is now suing Laura for the losses? Ha! I’m surprised this is even in court.

They are still trying to clawback Madoff profits. Laura will probably have to give back some of the 6.6 million; however, that’s a separate issue from the divorce.

I’m surprised this is even a case.

I think he would have a good case if the divorce had happened much closer to the discovery of the fraud. If that had been the case the argument is that she got $x and he got close to $0 because the joint investment was worthless. Assuming it was documented that they intended to split everything equally, it is hard to argue that cash vs. an account nominally denominated as an equal amount but actually worth nothing is an equal split.

However, the amount of time that he left the money in the account might be an issue for him. First of all, since she said she wasn’t interested in leaving money with Madoff, it is possible that he was on notice that there was something wrong with the account. (It is also possible that she knew something was wrong and he didn’t.) Second, if he could have taken the money out for a substantial amount of time after the divorce (I still haven’t heard if there have been any claw backs), she can argue that if he wanted his money he could have gotten it and leaving the money with Madoff was the real cause of his loss.

And the exact wording of the final documents matters a lot. There are equity issues that arise in divorce proceedings, but the words of the agreement matter.

Divorce itself is admission of mutual mistake.

First of all, since she said she wasn’t interested in leaving money with Madoff, it is possible that he was on notice that there was something wrong with the account.

Or more likely she considered Madoff to be a friend of her ex and someone who was unlikely to treat her well after the divorce. She might have also considered the Madoff account to be too opaque for her and opted for something simple and, to her, less dangerous.

It could just be a difference in investing strategy. IMHO he’s screwed.

Polly doesn’t the fraud have to be by one of the parties to this case?

This just sounds like bad valuation - you know, like everything else that was going on at the time. TS, I say. They’re using that old cow case from the 1800s to illustrate the mistake issue, but I can’t see the courts agreeing that oh yeah, we had no idea at the time that, OOPS, the account is worthless.

Montana,

Not for “mistake” cases. It is a very limited doctrine in contract law. The cases we studied on mistake had to do with renting hotel rooms that overlooked the path for a British coronation parade. A few of them won, but the prof said that they shouldn’t have because both parties were aware at the time the room was rented (at a higher than normal price) that it was possible the event would be cancelled. Using that standard, you would have to argue in this case that the couple had no ability to predict that it was possible that their holdings with Madoff weren’t actually worth what the account said it was worth. It sounds like they were wealthy, fairly sophisticated investors. To say that they were not at all aware of the possibility of fraud on an investment statement is pushing the bounds of creditbility.

That being said, I haven’t looked up the parameters of the mistake doctrine in a whole lot of years. But even the term “mutual mistake” tells you that it doesn’t require a bad action by either party.

I read that the ex-husband was arguing that the Madoff account wasn’t a “real” account and therefore he shouldn’t have to take the losses. However, the account apparently was real enough for him to pull cash funds out to pay off his ex-wife. He kept investing with Madoff 2 years after the divorce settlement, could have pulled out his money at any time before it imploded. But he didn’t. And like others have observed, if the account had been legit and he made big bucks after the settlement, she wouldn’t have been entitled to his profits. He’s loaded, why is he even bothering?

Sorry. Clarification. You could never try for it based on the theory of mutual mistake. It is long established, but notoriously hard to prove. If you went before a judge and said this investment couldn’t have been worth $x on the date of the division of assets because it was worth only half that much a year later, you would get laughed out of court.

People can try almost anything. They are just wasting their time. In the most extreme circumstances the lawyer won’t try it based on fear of getting sanctioned.

I wonder if she got the house and if it lost value since the divorce?

There you go. No way, of course. The the valuation every bit as fraudulent.

The article states that they BOTH got a house.

Oh, come on……… it gives me something to bi#ch about besides the robber barons and the criminal management class.

It’s all good. Just wrote my LAST child support check. (Yeah, the divorce was expensive, but I’d be out a lot more money if I was still married to her).

We have a system locally that verifies payments. I write them a check, they log/record the payment, then cut the ex- a check for the amount, minus a $10-20 processing fee.

They are missing a HUGE business opportunity…….print up a gigantic copy of my last check, then have someone go to the house and present it, with photos, of course. Then offer up a photo pack to the payer as a memento.

(Disclaimer: My “child support” isn’t done by any stretch of the imagination…….just the part where I pay it thru the ex-)

“They are missing a HUGE business opportunity…….print up a gigantic copy of my last check, then have someone go to the house and present it, with photos, of course.”

There was an episode of 2 1/2 men that did that with the last alimony check…

I’m sorry you had to work for such an unethical company.

You would never be able to get away with that sort of thing at UC or Harvard. If nothing else, the large number of unionized employees would prevent it. Can’t say about Goldman. Given how much their compensation is connected to getting/keeping government policies on their side, the employees might contribute quite voluntarily.

Required “voluntary” donations are still quite common in many companies.

Like your typical annual “United Way” campaign.

The HMFICs like those photo ops where they can brag about “100% employee participation” in the “voluntary” program.

In my former company, it was made extremely clear (verbally, nothing in writing of course) that a big part of your performance appraisal was contingent on getting the serfs to sign up for United Way payroll deductions.

In my former company, it was made extremely clear (verbally, nothing in writing of course) that a big part of your performance appraisal was contingent on getting the serfs to sign up for United Way payroll deductions.

I used to work in a non-profit that operated that way. That was my last-ever full-time job.

And, surprise-surprise, one of the things I don’t miss about the employment world was the annual United Way arm-twist.

…and Iran/Contra.

Arms to the Mujhadin.

Worst recession since the Depression. (at the time)

Beiruit Marine Barracks Bombed

US Invades Grenada

Iran/Contra again

At last but certainly not least, voodoo, er, “supply side economics” and the big push for deregulation.

The last Bush had a majority Repub congress.

As for Europe, I have several friends who live there and they say, that outside of GB, life is just fine and that our news services are lying to us.

I know a few people in Europe, both in GB and the Continent. When they visit the US they tell me that we now look like a 3rd World country.

On thing I do know: I drive US287 from Loveland into Denver. This is a 4 lane road with a median in most places and some sections are literally crumbling while work crews try desperately to patch up the ever multiplying pot holes. And this is a US Federal Hwy, not some podunky county road.

I did 287 from Laramie to Denver ONCE. I25 ever since, even if I have to drive 8-10 miles to get to it. I kind of have a soft spot for the road, but a few miles at a time is plenty.

More Dem talking points, not anything to do with corruption.

I see you have chosen your name well.

I saw a documentary a few years ago about how Japan’s underclass survives. An office building was converted into a dorm where people could rent an apartment that was a glorified cubicle (the partitions went up to the ceiling and had a door). The “apartments” had room for a bed, a desk and a small closet.

The show was about clinical depression in Japan and how Japanese society pretends it doesn’t exist there. It was kind of sad to watch these people (mostly under 30) talk about how they were shunned by their families and society in general because their depression affected them, first at school and then in the workforce. Virtually all of them had menial part time jobs and the knew that the flophouse the lived in was as good as it would get. Most lacked romantic partners and just live day by day. I can only imagine how hard it must be to cope with that in overachieving Japan. But we all know that some one has to be below average, in fact a lot of people. Japan, much like the USA, has no use for such people.

What’s always fun is when the deadbeat forgets that he screwed you over, and comes around trying to drum up business from you.

That’s exactly what’s happening in this case. And, back when we did biz in the 1990s, I made quite a point of telling my immediate family that this guy went into hard-to-get mode when it came time to pay me in full.

It was fun to relive that memory with my mother yesterday. She assured me that there would be no chance of her or my father doing any financial advisory business with this guy.

Ditto for my aunt. And she even topped my mom on the sarcasm meter, which is quite an accomplishment.

“What’s always fun is when the deadbeat forgets that he screwed you over”

Usually a sign that the deadbeat has screwed over a ton of people.